Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day012.11
Last-Modified: 2000/07/20

   Q.   I am not trying to trick you.  I just want to know what
        you mean.
   A.   I think that together you and I will find out what
        happened that evening.
   Q.   I think I know, Mr Irving.  I do not need your help, I do
        not think.  "What of Himmler and Hitler?  Both were
        totally unaware of what Goebbels had done until the
        synagogue next to Munich's Four Seasons hotel was set on
        fire around 1 a.m."
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Right.  What did you mean by saying that Hitler was
        totally unaware of what Goebbels had done until the

.          P-91

        synagogue next door to the hotel went up?
   A.   Goebbels, if my memory of events is correct, that evening
        had sent out an igniting telegram, which I would describe
        as an igniting telegram, in which he had called for
        widespread acts of arson and violence against the Jewish
        community and their property.
                  Hitler was also not present when Goebbels made
        this speech to the old fighters, to the old comrades.
        Those are the two elements on which I base that sentence.
   Q.   Yes?
   A.   When he made literally the fiery speech, the inflammatory
        speech.
   MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, I, therefore, have a suggestion to make,
        that your Lordship might consider rising now because
        I would wish for the afternoon your Lordship and
        Mr Irving, if he needs to do so to remind himself, to read
        the whole of pages 273 to 277 towards the halfway break in
        the page, until we get to the aftermath which is 10th and
        11th because it will ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am not quite sure why.  I mean, I have read
        it before.  What is to be gained by reading it again
        without knowing what questions you are going to ask?
   MR RAMPTON:  Well, because it puts my questions in context.  I
        am quite happy to ask questions, but your Lordship or
        Mr Irving may find it difficult it follow.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am sure Mr Irving will not, but I might,

.          P-92

        I suppose.
   A.   But it is eight years since I wrote this passage and
        I have moved on to other things since then, of course.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  So you would like the opportunity to re- read
        it, would you?
   A.   If Mr Rampton thinks it would be useful.
   MR RAMPTON:  Well, I do because otherwise I am going to dot
        around from one page to the next.  One will not have the
        context unless we read out all the pages in court, and
        that is time consuming and also somewhat tiresome.
   A.   I can read it during the lunch hour.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Right.  So now is the moment do that, is it?
   MR RAMPTON:  We have only lost eight minutes if we do it that
        way.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, OK.  We will say 2 o'clock.

                        (Luncheon adjournment until 2.00 p.m.)

   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes?
   MR RAMPTON:  Now, Mr Irving, have you had a chance to reread
        those pages of your book?
   A.   I have, yes.
   Q.   Good.  What I would like to do, if I may, is to draw your
        attention to the documents in the file which you have.  As
        far as possible I will try to do it in chronological
        order.  Then what I want to do is to see and, if the
        answer is you have, whether you have treated them in this

.          P-93

        passage and, if you have, how you have treated them and,
        if you have not, why not.  First of all, can you please
        turn to page 2 of the first tab in this bundle?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   If you look at this, I do not know what the nature of this
        publication is.  I think it is probably a Nuremberg
        document.  Do you?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Here is a telegram from Muller, who is head of the
        Gestapo.  It is the right hand column, my Lord.  377 is
        the internal number.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.
   MR RAMPTON:  It is sent at 5 to 12 on the night of 19th
        November 1938, is it not?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   It is addressed to -- what are Stapostellen?
   A.   Local Gestapo officers.
   Q.   And Stapolizeistellen?
   A.   They are the office immediately above them.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What is the date of it?  I cannot find it.
   A.   9th November 19 --
   MR RAMPTON:  It is Berlin No. 234, 404, 9.11, 23.55 which is
        the time.  Is that right?
   A.   Yes.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I see, but no year.
   MR RAMPTON:  No year, no.  But you have seen this document

.          P-94

        before?
   A.   The original is in the Hoover library in Stamford
        University.
   Q.   Is the answer to my question yes?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   When did you first see this document?
   A.   Probably about 20 years ago, 25 years ago.
   Q.   It is ----
   A.   I am saying I have seen the original of the original
        document, not of this Nuremberg one, which I did not use.
   Q.   It does not make an appearance in your Goebbels book, does
        it?
   A.   Do I not refer to igniting telegrams?
   Q.   In a footnote but it is not in the text, is it?
   A.   It makes the appearance in the footnote, yes.
   Q.   Can you just glance at it again, you are no doubt familiar
        with it, and tell us what it says?
   A.   It is instructing local police officers that in a short
        time there is going to be an outbreak of operations
        against the Jews, in particular against their synagogues
        all over Germany, and that there are to be certain
        precautionary measures to make sure that other buildings
        are not -- and also the arrest of 20 or 30,000 Jews is to
        be prepared.
   Q.   That arrest of 20 or 30,000 Jews was explicitly on the
        order of Hitler, was it not?

.          P-95

   A.   I believe you are right, yes.
   Q.   And Goebbels said so, and it was so reported in, I think,
        the proceedings of the -- maybe I am wrong about that, but
        I think you have stated it as a fact in your book?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   No doubt deriving it from Goebbels diary entry?
   A.   I just would like to enter the caveat at this point of
        course that I first wrote this 15 years ago, and the last
        time I drafted this manuscript was eight years ago.  From
        then until now I have not really had any reason to read it
        again, but I think you are right.
   Q.   On page 276 you write: "'The Fuhrer', claimed Goebbels in
        the diary, 'has directed that 20 or 30,000 Jews are to be
        arrested immediately'".
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Rampton, where are you reading?  I know
        which book but can you tell me where on the page?
   Q.   I am sorry, my Lord, 276, middle of the page, just before
        the indented quote?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I see.  Thank you.
   MR RAMPTON:  In fact, an order from Heydrich went out at 1.20
        in the morning?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   As well as this one, did it not?
   A.   Yes, that is quite plain.
   Q.   You are saying that.
   A.   Yes.

.          P-96

   Q.   Heydrich later report to the Goring, I think on the 11th,
        that that had in fact been achieved, did he not?
   A.   Yes.  This Fuhrer order refers specifically of course to
        the arrest of the Jews.
   Q.   And particularly the well-to do Jews?  Is that right?
   A.   Not in my book, it does not.
   Q.   No, no.  Here on the page.
   A.   On the document, do you mean?
   Q.   Yes (German).
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   In paragraph 1 it says that there will be taking place, or
        there are taking place, you tell me which it is, in the
        near ----
   A.   There are to take place in the near future in all Germany
        operations against the Jews.
   Q.   Against the Jews especially against their synagogues?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Then it says [German- document not provided], which means?
   A.   They are not to be interrupted.
   Q.   That is in exact consonance with what Goebbels reported
        Hitler as having said to him just before the dinner on the
        evening, is it not?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Do you not think that this telegram ----
   A.   It does not add much to our knowledge.
   Q.   It does not?

.          P-97

   A.   No, but I referenced it in a footnote as being a telegram
        with an igniting function, if my memory is correct.
   Q.   Yes.  Then the next one I would like you to look at is the
        one on the first page, in this bundle?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Rampton, I am just a little puzzled by
        great stacks of documents in German being handed up.  Is
        there anything to be gained by having a translation of
        them?  What am I meant to do with all this?
   MR RAMPTON:  Well, if the witness has translated them in the
        witness box and I have not contested his translation, then
        one can take it -- his German is very good -- that what
        he said is accurate.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I was really thinking of my own position,
        that it is not entirely satisfactory having to correlate
        this document that is referred to on day 12 with such and
        such a page of the transcript.
   MR RAMPTON:  I know.
   A.   Can I also point out, of course, that this was not the
        only order issued?  Goebbels had previously issued an
        order during the day.  I am not if you caught that,
        Mr Rampton.  This was not the only order issued, of
        course.  Goebbels had previously issued an order earlier
        that day to which he refers on the following day when he
        rescinds his order.
   Q.   But Goebbels does not issue orders to Muller, does he?
   A.   This is part of the problem that night.  We find Goebbels

.          P-98

        issuing orders to police officials and to gauleitung
        officials over which he has no direct control whatsoever.
   Q.   Where are these Goebbels orders?
   A.   If you look at the page 279 of my Goebbels book and you
        look at the caption to that, on November 10th Goebbels
        issued an urgent circular telegram all gau propaganda
        chiefs cancelling the Aktionen against the Jews ordered
        the day before.
   Q.   First of all, what time of day does this message go?
   A.   That one went out at some time on November 10th, which is
        the day after it all happened.
   Q.   It has all happened by then, has it not?
   A.   That is correct.
   Q.   Second, you notice that this message from Goebbels which
        comes the following day is sent to the propaganda chiefs.
        It is not sent to the SA or to the Gestapo at all, is it?
   A.   That is correct.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Rampton, I am completely lost.  I do not
        know what the point is at all.  We have just looked at a
        document, I now cannot remember where it was, tab 2.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Is there a point made on that document?
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes.  If your Lordship would be a little patient
        with me, the point I shall be making at the end it so that
        it is all clear is this.  Orders were given throughout the
        night, apparently on the express authority of Hitler,

.          P-99

        first of all that certain kinds of property were not to be
        damaged or burnt, but by no means extending to all Jewish
        property, and, second, that it was repeatedly said, again
        on the authority of Hitler, that the police were to
        hold back, they were not to interfere.
   A.   But you keep on interpolating the words "on the authority
        of Hitler" which is the very moot point of course.
   Q.   Because some of them actually say so. I am explaining
        something to the judge, Mr Irving.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.  Let Mr Rampton explain because I am not
        following the criticism of you at the moment.
   MR RAMPTON:  The point of it is, if you unvarnish by
        Mr Irving's interpretation, if I can call it that, in
        these pages, one looks at the original documents as a
        piece of original chronology, if I can call it that.  What
        one sees is that it is inconceivable, when you look at who
        they came from, when they came from, that this did not
        originate with Hitler and was approved by him as
        Dr Goebbels said it had been.

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