Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day008.28
Last-Modified: 2000/07/20

   MR RAMPTON:  This is what Dr Roth said when he was interviewed
        for that programme, last year or something like that.  He
        said this:
                  "I do not think that the Leuchter results have
        any meaning.  There is nothing in any of our data that
        says those services were exposed or not.  Hindsight being
        20/20, the test was not the correct one to have been used
        for the analysis.  Leuchter presented us with rock samples
        anywhere from the side view of thumb up to half the size
        of your fist.  He broke them up with a hammer so that we
        could get a subsample, placed it in a flask, add
        concentrated sulphuric acid and undergoes a reaction that
        produces a red coloured solution.  It is the intensity of
        this red colour that we can relate with cyanide
        concentration.  You have to look at what happens to
        cyanide when it reacts with a wall.  Where does it go, how
        far goes it go?  Cyanide is a surface reaction.  It is
        probably not going to penetrate more than 10 microns.  A
        human hair is 100 microns in diameter.  Crush this sample
        up.  I have just diluted that sample 10,000, 100,000
        times.  If you are going to look for it, you are going
to
        look on the surface face only.  There is no reason to
go
        deep because it is not going to be there.  Which was
the

.          P-60



        exposed surface?  I did not have any idea.  That is
like
        analysing paint on a wall by analysing the timber that
is
        behind it."
                  Now Mr Irving, that is the man that did the
        analysis?
   A.   Yes.  Can I add that he also said on a part that is
not in
        the film, "Had I known that these samples came from
        Auschwitz, I would have come up with completely
different
        figures".
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What is the significance, you say, of
that?
   A.   I suggest that he is not entirely subjective not.
   Q.   You mean objective?
   A.   Not entirely objective.
   MR RAMPTON:  Maybe.  Mr Irving, what this suggests is, to
use
        one of your words, it is absolutely shattering, is it
not?
        Despite the absolutely hopeless methodology that Fred
        Leuchter used to obtain his samples, the fact is that
the
        sample from the Leichenkeller in crematorium 3 still
        produced traces of hydrogen cyanide, did it not?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Which samples is he talking about here?
   MR RAMPTON:  He is talking about the ruins of Auschwitz
which
        Fred Leuchter surreptitiously removed on his visit and
        brought back to be analysed in America.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  From the gas chambers or the delousing
        chamber or both?
   MR RAMPTON:  Both, as far as I know.  He did the whole lot
and

.          P-61



        that is the where the figures in the Leuchter report
come
        from, my Lord.  It is from Dr Roth's analysis.
   A.   Dr Roth says that it is less than one tenth the
thickness
        of a human hair that the cyanide will penetrate into
the
        brickwork.
   Q.   Exactly. If you are going to do the test
scientifically,
        you need carefully to scratch or scrape the surface
and
        put it in a plastic bag, take it back and have it
        analysed.  What Fred Leuchter did was to hack great
lumps
        out of the fabric, did he not?
   A.   Mr Rampton, I am not just going to go annihilate
evidence
        from Dr Roth, I am going to exterminate it when the
time
        comes, when we produce the photographs.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Make a start now.
   A.   My Lord, we have photographs taken of the outside of
some
        of these buildings, I emphasise the word "outside",
and
        the blue stain from the cyanide has gone right through
the
        brickwork, inch after inch after inch.  You can see
the
        outside of the building is stained blue with a stain
that
        turns out to be Prussian blue from the cyanide that
has
        come right through the brickwork.
   Q.   That is the delousing chamber, is it?
   A.   The delousing chamber, my Lord, yes and also a gas
chamber
        at Stutthorf outside Dansig.
   MR RAMPTON:  How long, Mr Irving, does it take to delouse a
        set, I call it a set, of clothing of, let us say, 1500

.          P-62



        people in a delousing chamber using Zyklon B?
   A.   That is neither here nor there.  Dr Roth had not
spoken
        about the length of time.  He says it goes less than
one
        tenth of the thickness of a human hair into the
brickwork.
   Q.   How long does it take to disinfect, using Zyklon B,
        delouse the clothing of 1500 people?
   A.   I do not know.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think Mr Rampton is right, that the way
it
        is put here, and it is not perhaps the most
satisfactory
        way to present Dr Roth's views, if this is a
television
        interview, is that cyanide is only ever a surface
        reaction.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes indeed.
   A.   My Lord, these photographs will be in evidence later
on
        this week.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It is really a chemistry point, not a
        photograph point.
   A.   An image is worth a thousand words, perhaps.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Maybe.
   MR RAMPTON:  It depends.  The camera never lies, of course,
        does it, Mr Irving?  Have the outside surfaces of that
        building which you say has the blue staining on it
been
        tested?
   A.   Yes, by Mr Gelman Rudolf.  He has carried out very
        intensive tests on them.
   Q.   Mr Irving, these criticisms by Mr Beer were cogent,
were

.          P-63



        they not?
   A.   They were, yes, of course.  I did not ignore them at
all.
        I immediately contacted all relevant parties as the
        correspondence under flag 8 or 9 shows, and said we
have
        to take these on board.
   Q.   What about the general public?
   A.   Well, you must realize, by this time you also have the
        other collateral evidence.
   Q.   By what time?  When did your so-called collateral
evidence
        come to light?
   A.   Oh, it was coming in the whole time.  As soon as the
        Leuchter report was published, people starting
contacting
        us and telling us about other such things.
   Q.   What do you mean by collateral evidence?
   A.   For example, we know that both of a forensic nature,
        somebody sent us a copy of the Krakow report by the
Jansen
        Institute which the Auschwitz state museum immediately
        commissioned after the Leuchter report was published,
and
        they did not like the findings, and so they
pigeonholed
        it.  They put it in a safe and locked it away, because
it
        basically substantiated what Mr Leuchter had said.
Then
        the original Jansen report was also supplied to us,
the
        1945 report.
   Q.   Us?  Who is "us"?
   A.   Us?
   Q.   You said "supplied us"?

.          P-64



   A.   A copy was supplied to me, a copy was supplied to the
        Institute of Historical Review in California, and in
fact
        it was supplied to us surreptitiously.  Somebody in
the
        Auschwitz archives photographed a copy and sent us a
copy
        of what the Auschwitz archives were concealing from.
   Q.   I still do not know who "us" is?
   A.   Is it material?
   Q.   Yes, I think it probably is, in the light of this
        correspondence which we are going to look at more in a
        moment.
   A.   A copy was sent to me, a copy was sent to Mark Weber
        probably of the Institute of Historical Review.
   Q.   And one no doubt to Ernst Zundel?
   A.   I think I sent a copy to him, if my memory is correct.
        These things were shuffled back and forth.  Sometimes
        I got them, sometimes the others got them and then we
        would collaborate.  We put our heads together.
Obviously
        there is no point rushing into print with some kind of
        conclusion this way and that.  It would be looking
like
        headless chickens if you come out with first one thing
and
        then another thing.
   Q.   You have never publicly acknowledged any of these
reports,
        critiques and so on which cast doubt, sometimes 100
per
        cent doubt, on your utterances about the gas chambers
at
        Auschwitz.
   A.   I do not agree.  I think that the central chemical

.          P-65



        conclusions of the Leuchter report, although flawed,
have
        now been substantially confirmed by a whole string of
        other reports in the meantime, both the one kept
secret by
        the Auschwitz authorities and the earlier 1945 one,
and
        the Gelmar Rudolf one, and other reports that have
been
        conducted since then.  Obviously the numbers do not
        exactly match, and you would not expect them to, but
the
        broad trend is the same, very large quantities in the
        fumigation clambers, cyanide residues and not the
        quantities you would expect in the buildings where
        allegedly hundreds of thousands of people have been
gassed
        to death with cyanide.
   Q.   So you say.  In order to set the scene, this has
become a
        little bit disorderly, Mr Irving, because you keep
        referring to some documents we have and others that we
do
        not.   Leave that on one side for the moment.  We are
just
        going to do, if we may, a little bit of arithmetic.
   A.   These documents have all been in my discovery.  None
of
        them have been concealed.
   Q.   I am not suggesting you are hiding anything from this
        court, Mr Irving, in the way of documents.  Can you
please
        turn in the Leuchter report in the front of your
bundle.
        You may be better to use the copied one unless that
has
        all 12 appendices.  Appendix 12 to the copy of the
        Leuchter report that I have, my Lord, in the bottom
right
        hand corner should be page No. 49.

.          P-66



   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.
   MR RAMPTON:  This is Mr Fruisson's name written on the top
of
        it, if you turn it sideways, has it?  It has Fruisson
        written beside Appendix 12.  Please turn to page 51,
        bottom right hand corner, that is the internal page
number
        of the report.  This is a document produced by the
firm of
        Degesch, do you agree, who are the manufacturers of
Zyklon
        B?  I am not suggesting this is a wartime document.
   A.   They are not the manufacturers.  The manufacturers
were I
        G Farbon.  Degesch were the people who controlled the
        supplies and Tesh were the company who allocated the
        supplies.
   Q.   The distributors?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   If you look at page 55, you can see a picture of some
tins
        of Zyklon B.  That is only just mentioned in passing,
so
        one can see there are three different tin sizes.  I do
not
        know what the rates were.  If you look at page 51, in
the
        left-hand column under hydro cyanic acid, which is the
        active agent in these pellets, is it not?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   At the very bottom of the column we see that one part
per
        million of hydrogen cyanide, that is a concentration,
is
        equivalent to .0012 grammes per cubic metre.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Now, if you turn backwards in this file to appendix 3,
we

.          P-67



        come to a translation of a wartime document.  My Lord,
it
        is page 23, which I think is a Nuremberg document, is
it
        not?
   A.   Yes, from the industrial case N I.
   Q.   And we see that it is issued, I do not know the exact
        date, but it was issued presumably during the war, it
must
        have been during the war, by the Health Institution of
the
        Protectorate of Bohemia and Morevia in Prague.  We
find
        that on page 25.  If you turn to the second page of
this
        document, page 24, and look at IX towards the bottom
of
        left hand column, we see there:
                  "The strength of gas and the time required
for
        it to take effect depends on the type of vermin, the
        temperature, the amount of furniture in the rooms, the
        imperviousness of building.  With inside temperatures
of
        more than 5 degrees centigrade it is customary to use
8
        grammes of Prussic acid, that hydrogen cyanide, per
cubic
        metre.  Time needed to take effect 16 hours, unless
there
        are special circumstances such as a closed in type of
        building which requires less time.  If the weather is
        warm, it is possible to reduce this to a minimum of 6
        hours.  The period is to be extended to at least 32
hours
        if the temperature is below 5 degrees centigrade.  The
        strength and time as above are to be applied in the
case
        of bugs, lice, fleas, etc. with eggs, larvae..."
                  If, Mr Irving, .0012 grammes per cubic metre

.          P-68



        produces a concentration of one part per million, 8
        grammes per cubic meter produces, I can tell you, a
        concentration of 6,666 parts per million.
   A.   Wrong.
   Q.   What?
   A.   Wrong.
   Q.   Why?
   A.   You are talking about hydrogen cyanide.
   Q.   Yes,  that is what they are talking about.
   A.   But we are talking about pellets, and pellets only
contain
        a small quantity of hydrogen cyanide sucked into them.
   Q.   Who is talking about pellets, Mr Irving?  I am
certainly
        not.
   A.   OK, carry on.
   Q.   Where does it say anything here about pellets?
   A.   If later on you start talking about tins of Zyklon B.
   Q.   No, I am reading from the wartime document.
   A.   All right.  As long as we are clear there is a
distinction
        between the weight of cyanide and the weight of the
        pellets.
   Q.   Degesch is talking in the other document we looked at
        about concentrations of cyanide parts per million of
air.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   So is this document.  Customary to use 8 grammes of
        Prussic acid per cubic metre?
   A.   Hydrogen cyanide supplied.

.          P-69



   Q.   Nothing about pellets.  So I am right, am I not?
   A.   I do accept the point that it takes less Zyklon B or
        hydrogen cyanide to kill the vermin in fumigation chambers
        at lower concentration than it does to kill human beings.
        I accept this point.

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