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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day008.17

Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day008.17
Last-Modified: 2000/07/20

   Q.   Nowhere do I find -- correct me if I am wrong -- in any
        of your published works at least one natural explanation
        of this passage in Hitler's speech on 26th May 1944, which
        is this: "I solved the matter simply in the most simple
        way I could which is by killing them.  I am sorry that it
        was not more humane".  You could of course have gone on to
        say, I am sure that is what he meant to say.  You have to
        explain away what Himmler had said on the previous
        occasion as well.  But I do not even find that explanation
        anywhere do I ?
   A.   If you look on page 632, Mr Rampton, at the end of the
        Adolf Hitler speech, May 26th 1944.
   Q.   Yes I see that.
   A.   We have spirited applause at the end of the speech and
        then the two lines as follows.  This is me, David
        Irving. "In Auschwitz"In Auschwitz, the defunct
        paraphernalia of death- idle since late 1943- began to
        clank again as the first trainloads from Hungary arrived."
        Does this not say everything to you?
   Q.   No, it does not. That is exactly my point.

.          P-152

   A.   After we have listened to these two speeches set out
        unusual length, if I may say so, almost the whole page
        the book, I then say: For once, I give the reader a
        hint as to what cause and effect is.
   Q.   Why does the poor little reader -- in 91 they have
        become slave labour at the I G Farben plant but that
is a
        different point.  We will come to that.
   A.   I think this is quite an important point.  This is the
        do things when you write books.  You give the
        you give the quote and, in case you think the reader
        not going to get the point, you spell it out in one
and a
        half lines.  You say what you are going to say, you
        what you say and then you say what you have said.
   Q.   Mr Irving, surely, in a book like this, had you not
        set on exculpating Adolf Hitler, you would have said,
        would you not, and evidence, evidence, of what Hitler
        referring to by the simple means was killing, is that
        July of 1944 or before, in consequence of the fact
        the Hungarians had surrendered their 400,000 Jews, by
        order of the high hierarchy in Berlin, Auschwitz
        up again?
   A.   Well, how many lines is that?
   Q.   So what?
   A.   You say "so what" but ----
   Q.   You put in what, if I may say so, is a lot of Hitler's
        sludge which you did not need?

.          P-153

   A.   Well, I thought -- this is not Hitler sludge.  This is
        pure speech.  I am the first person to find it and you
        will find that when I found something for the first
        I tended to put more than usual in so that other
        historians can have a bite at it too in case they
        get hold of the original transcript.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can I, if you are about to leave that,
        Mr Rampton, just ask ----
   MR RAMPTON:  I am, I am going to go away from that now.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  --- Mr Irving what the defunct
        of death at Auschwitz actually were?
   A.   I prefer to leave it like that at that point.
   Q.   No, but I am asking you now, when you wrote that you
        have had something in mind.
   A.   When I wrote that, I assumed that they had gas
        the whole factory of death paraphernalia, yes, my
        You will find that when we get to the 1991 edition,
        sentence has been changed.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, I follow that.  Thank you.
   MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, I am going to leave that aspect of
        Hitler's knowledge in the spring of '44 and move
        in time because it is dealt with as a separate topic
        Professor Evans.  That is what Mr Irving calls the
        Schlegelberger note.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can we spell that for the benefit of the

.          P-154

   MR RAMPTON:  It is "S C H L E G E B E R G E R".  Before I
        on to this and, Mr Irving, I call it the so-called
        Schlegelberger note because, whatever you may think,
        and I, that is to say, are by no means certain that
        is what it ought to be called.  The reasons for that
        emerge in a moment.  But before we start on this
        you just said about Hitler's May 26th speech that you
        not extrapolate "I am inclined to stick more closely
        what we find in the record with no quantum leap", yes?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Well, bear that in mind, will you, as we look at your
        treatment of this particular document.  My Lord, it
        starts, this exercise, which I am afraid is a little
        tedious, however it must be done, on page 363 of
        Evans' report.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Have we got the Schlegelberger note
        somewhere?  Is it worth looking at that or not?
   MR RAMPTON:  It certainly is.  It will be necessary to look
        it.  Yes, it will.
   A.   I have the entire file with the original just in case
        need it.
   Q.   The best copy, well, there are two copies of it.
There is
        a translation of it at the top of page 364 of
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That will do, I suspect.
   MR RAMPTON:  Well, no, it will not, I am afraid, because,

.          P-155

        often in these cases, the markings on the note may be
        thought to have some significance.  It is necessary to
        look at the actual note.  That, my Lord, is to be
found in
        two places.  It is in H1 (viii) at page 368, which is
        Evans' copy, but it is also to be found on Mr Irving's
        site -- in some senses this is a more satisfactory
copy --
        at page 1561 of file D8(iv).
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I have not got that either -- yes, I
        That is better actually.
   MR RAMPTON:  Your Lordship might appreciate looking at that
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Instead?
   MR RAMPTON:  No both, and maybe put the Evans one away.
        is matter for your Lordship entirely.  It is the same
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I will stick with the one I have got.
        sorry? I did not catch that in the web site.
   MR RAMPTON:  In the Evans' one, my Lord?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, the web site one.
   MR RAMPTON:  Web site one is 1561.  It is in a box at the
        of the page.
   A.   That has the translation with it?
   Q.   Pardon?
   A.   That has the translation with it.
   Q.   It does too.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Have you got it?

.          P-156

   A.   I have it here.
   MR RAMPTON:  You translate it as meaning:  "Mr Reich
        Lammers told me, informed me, that the Fuhrer had
        repeatedly declared to him that he wants to hear the
        solution of the Jewish problem has been postponed
        after the war is over".  Which are the words which say
        that he wants to hear?
   A.   "Wissen", he wants to know that, he wants to -- I am
        trying to remain, adhere as closely as possible to the
        sense of the document, "wissen volle".
   Q.   I see.  Then you go on:  "That being so, the current
        discussions are of purely theoretical value, Mr Reich
        Minister Lammers' opinion.  He will moreover take
pains to
        ensure that, whatever happens, no fundamental
        are taken without his knowledge in consequence of a
        surprise briefing by any third party."
                  Now, that document is undated, is it not?
   A.   That is undated, yes.
   Q.   It comes from a file of somewhat miscellaneous
        does it not?
   A.   Well, it is a Ministry of Justice file headed
        of the Jews".
   Q.   Yes?
   A.   "The Reichs Ministry of Justice", the label on the
        of the file is [German].
   Q.   My understanding, however, is that this file was one

.          P-157

        was used by the Allies or may even have been put
        by the Allies; is that right?
   A.   A photocopy of the file was made at the 777 Berlin
        Document Centre, and the photocopies were supplied to
        prosecution authorities at Nuremberg, where they were
        handled by Dr Kempner.
   Q.   Can you look -- I do not want to read it out because
it is
        really too boring in a sense -- I wonder if you could
        look, read to yourself, and I would ask your Lordship
        do the same, please, paragraphs 4, 5, 6 and 7, the
        sentence of 7, perhaps the whole of 7, of Professor
        report starting on page 364?  To hear me read it out
        drive everybody mad, I am sure.
   A.   Yes, he obviously has problems with it.
   Q.   Well, do you not?
   A.   Not at all.
   Q.   Have you read the whole of that?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Just pause a moment.  I am sure Mr Irving
        knows it by heart.  I do not.
   A.   I am rather amused by the problems he has with it.
        is one document that just does not fit into the
        historians' repertoire.
   MR RAMPTON:  You have been absolutely categorical that this
        document comes from March 1942, have you not, Mr
   A.   Yes, the end of March or early April.

.          P-158

   Q.   Do you see on your copy in the web site the name
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   What do you think of those letters or digits which
        before Mr Freisler's name?
   A.   Staatssekretar, STS, big S, little T -- this is old
        handwriting -- [German] handwriting it is called --
        capital S, little T, full stop, S, Staatssekretar.  He
        State secretary in the Ministry of Justice.
   Q.   Why has it got his name on it?
   A.   That is the routing list.  It is going to go, first of
        all, to the State Secretary, then to the person whose
        department is listed on the next line, department 4,
        to department 5.  Normally, you would expect there to
be a
        little tick or a check mark next to it or an initial
        indicate that, yes, they have seen it.  So this is not
        man who has written it.  This is who it is intended
   Q.   Then, please, let us remind ourselves of what you said
        about this document.  First of all, page 464 of
        War 1991.  When did you discover this document, by the
   A.   In stages, if I may put it like that.  Beginning in
        I found the reference in a summary of it, and then
        I received the actual document itself from a German
        historian in about 1978 and simultaneously, I believe,
        from the United States national archives.

.          P-159

   Q.   You did not have it then when you first -- I do not
        if it is in '77 Hitler's War or not.  I am not
        if it is?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It could not be if he did not have it
   MR RAMPTON:  No, I would not have thought ----
   A.   My Lord, let me be just slightly more specific.  Your
        Lordship will recall that I said that photocopies went
        the prosecution authorities in Nuremberg.  The
location of
        the origin, of the originals, I do not know
        but the photocopies remained in Nuremberg.
                  The Americans produced what was called a
        evidence analysis sheet which listed the contents of
        little clip of documents which I have here in my hand.
        listed five documents in that clip, and document No. 4
        note stating that Hitler intended to postpone solution
        the Jewish problem until after the war which,
        is something which immediately attracted my attention.
                  This staff evidence analysis sheet is dated
        22nd 1946, in the middle of the Nuremberg trials, in
        words.  When I went to the file which this referenced,
        the other documents, the photocopies, were in that
        This one had vanished.  It took some years to locate
        originals with the original file still in it, the
        document still in it.  I can only surmise that this is
        possibly totally uncalled for, that the allied

.          P-160

        authorities in Nuremberg did not want that document to
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Why not?
   A.   Because it would have been used by Lammers, in particular,
        who was on trial in 1947 as a document to mitigate
        punishment or in some way to disculpate himself for any
        part in the Final Solution; that he would have pointed out
        that, as far as he knew, Hitler had ordered that nothing
        was to happen.  We conducted quite a paper trail.
        I contacted Mr Kempner which drew up this staff analysis
        sheet and we had quite a long search for it.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You eventually got it in about '78?
   A.   Yes, a rival historian got hold of the original document
        Professor Jekkel(?) because by that time the German
        Government archives had processed the file and found it.
        But it took 23 years just to process that file.
   MR RAMPTON:  Can we please go, therefore, to page 464 of
        Hitler's War?
   A.   Of the?
   Q.   1991.  My Lord, that is volume 2, but your Lordship will
        shortly need volume 1 because I am going to refer to the
        introduction.  I want to look at the text first.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I have 464.

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