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Last-Modified: 2000/07/20

   Q.   With the manuscript alteration, that is not Himmler's
        writing, an earlier draft, the speech is not made in those
        terms, it is recorded in these terms as they were
        recorded, were they not?

.          P-114

   A.   Sometimes they are recorded.
   Q.   Yes.  Then comes a transcript or a version anyway?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   To be put before the Fuhrer?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   And for some reason or another the page which we have
        and which is in the draft is removed?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   And replaced by something else?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   What is the evidence for that?
   A.   The fact that this page has clearly been retyped at
   Q.   So what?
   A.   And renumbered from there on.
   Q.   Perhaps it was badly typed in the first place.
   A.   That is another, third possible alternative, but it is
        funniest thing, is it not, that this is the one page
        it happens on.  The one page that contains the
        sentence has clearly been retyped at a different date
by a
        different hand on different paper.
   Q.   Why do you say a different date?
   A.   Well, because it is on different paper.  It is not
        from the same wad of paper that the rest of the speech
        typed on.
   Q.   But suppose the secretaries do a shift job or

.          P-115

        later in the same day, perhaps the evening, I do not
        what time of the day the speech is made, nor do we
        what dates these were drafts were on, do we?
   A.   No, we do not.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am sorry, Mr Rampton, I hope you do not
        mind, can I just see where we have got to?  This is a
        speech made by Himmler to a whole collection -- how
        Gauleiters Reichsleiters?
   A.   This is to top brass in the armed forces.
   Q.   How many would there have been there?
   A.   Probably in the order of 100.
   Q.   And several of them would be seeing Hitler on a fairly
        regular basis?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   And your hypothesis is that Himmler is telling the
        Generals that he has been ordered to take this drastic
        action ----
   A.   He is speaking ----
   Q.   --- as against Jews?
   A.   Once again he is not reading from a prepared script.
   Q.   No, but he is telling the generals that when it is not
        true he is inventing the order -- is this your
         -- and that is the reason why he has to sanitize the
        version that goes to Hitler?
   A.   If I can paraphrase the way I have put it in my book,
        Lord, we have any number of speeches where Himmler

.          P-116

        the same kind of statement.  This is the only one
where he
        inadvertently, perhaps, talked about a Fuhrer order.
        may very well have inadvertently, because the General
        spoken of a Fuhrer order because they are accustomed
        orders.  I do not know what his motive for that was.
   Q.   It is scarcely inadvertent.  It is plainly a speech
        was carefully prepared in advance.
   A.   He is not reading from a script, my Lord.  We have
        probably in this case, certainly in other cases, like
        one page of paper he would write down 15 or 20 words
        the basis of which he would speak.
   Q.   I am bound to say that looking at the bit of paper
        Mr Rampton handed in a moment ago, that looks to me
like a
        preparatory draft which was altered ----
   A.   No, my Lord, it is not.
   Q.   --- for grammatical reasons.  Well, you tell me that
        I will accept it because I expect you have good reason
        doing so.
   A.   It very definitely is not, my Lord.  This is a typed
        version taken from either the shorthand notes or, as
        Mr Rampton rightly says, from the sound recording
which is
        then edited in handwriting by a third hand.  From that
        then prepared, as we can see by comparison, the large
        Fuhrer size typewriter.  All I am saying, my Lord, is
        has to comment on the fact that this page alone has
        retyped at a different date and inserted, and ----

.          P-117

   Q.   Yes, I follow that.
   A.   It is significant.
   Q.   But what I want to ask you is this, Mr Irving, was
        not taking an almighty risk in pretending to the
        that he had an order when he had not, given that the
        Generals were going to be, or some of them, in
        communication directly with Hitler?
   A.   This might be the very reason why he had that page
        making no reference to a Fuhrer order.  We do not know
        what is on the retyped version.  I hesitate to venture
        too far across that particular thin ice.  We cannot
        speculate what was on the other version of that page,
        one that was correctly typed and correctly indented.
   Q.   I thought you were speculating that it might have been
        sanitized to delete the reference to an order.
   A.   Yes, we cannot safely speculate really any more than
        I have done in the book.  My Lord, the whole of this
        passage is in my book "Hitler's War" with the entire
        incriminating quotation, and in a footnote of three
        two and a half lines, I have drawn attention to the
        that this page is for some reason or other retyped.
   MR RAMPTON:  I am not sure you are right about it.  It is a
        small point, but, to be clear, it is both this and the
        next speech of 24th are in Hitler's War 1977?
   A.   On pages 630 and 631.
   Q.   Yes.  But I think you will find, if you look at page

.          P-118

        of 1991, I think 4th May has disappeared, has it not?
        I may be wrong about that.
   A.   I would be very surprised indeed if they are.
   Q.   I compared it with 1977.  I think ----
   A.   I would be prepared to bet a substantial sum of money
        has not vanished.
   Q.   You find it in Hitler's War 1991 because I could not.
        I am not saying it is not there; I could not find it.
   A.   Well, it will be on page 630.  Oddly any, it is
        the same page as the old version.
   Q.   630 of the old version.  Let us compare the two, shall
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I cannot see it on 630.
   A.   I may have to withdraw my bet.
   MR RAMPTON:  It is on 630 of 1977 ----
   MR RAMPTON:  --- sure enough, and 24th May is on page 631.
        I am baffled to know where to find it in the edition
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You can always come back to this, Mr
        because it is difficult to find something when you are
        the hoof, as it were.
   A.   I am slightly puzzled because I am just looking at the
        notes and I see there are two pages of the end notes
        vanished, three pages of the end notes have vanished
        your photocopy and I wonder if it is in the end notes

.          P-119

   MR RAMPTON:  That is not very likely, is it, Mr Irving?
   A.   I am still on page 830.
   Q.   If there were an end note about it, it would be in the
        same part of the text, would it not?
   A.   But it would be on page 830 of the end notes which I
        not have.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think I have.
   MR RAMPTON:  I have lost mine too.
   A.   Either that or it has been shovelled to a different
        of the book which I -- there has been some major
        structural change to that chapter I can see with all
        fresh material we have put in.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do not think the note on page 630 ----
   A.   It does not contain it.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  --- helps.
   MR RAMPTON:  Your end notes in the 1991 edition are done by
        numbers, are they not?
   A.   By page number.
   Q.   Yes, I see.  My fault.  So I have to look to the end
        to page 630?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Which is on page 830?
   A.   I may have put it to a different part of the book, but
        is not in the same place.  We can say that anyway.
   MR RAMPTON:  There is a real oddity here, Mr Irving.  You
        not got it, so I will read it out.
   A.   Yes.

.          P-120

   Q.   The end note to page 630 says (and, no doubt, this is
        exactly what it says in the 1977 edition), I am
reading at
        the end of the note:  "His May 5th speech is on
        and that of May 24th", that is another microfilm
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   It had been in the text in 1977, but there is no
        since this is a reference to page 630 of the text,
that it
        has left the main stage by the time of the 1991
   A.   As you can see, I am as baffled as you are by this.
   Q.   No, it is quite easy.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   You have edited it out of the text of the 1991
        but have forgotten to change the end note which is
        replicating what was said in 1977?
   A.   Can I amend that statement to say it has been edited
   Q.   OK.
   A.   If it has been edited out, of course, many hands edit
        The American editors who produce this text may well
        decided this was just repeating what the next
        said.  I am as baffled as you are and I will look into
        within the next 24 hours and see what I can make of
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  We will come back to it.
   MR RAMPTON:  I will not push that any further for the
        until I hear, if you can produce it, what the
        might be.  You see, if we look at the history of the

.          P-121

        (with which you are well familiar), you told us
        I think, that by this time, May 1944, it is likely
        Hitler was well aware of what Himmler had been doing?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   And you also told us, I think, that if Hitler had been
        told or had known earlier in 1942, early 1943, he
        would not have minded very much?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   So if you are right, what was Himmler so terrified --
I do
        not accept for a moment you are right; I have to say
        I think it is a fanciful suggestion -- what on earth
        Himmler afraid of?
   A.   Hitler had repeatedly issued injunctions against
        who were issuing Fuhrer orders of which he had no
        knowledge.  There is several examples of that in the
        files.  There is one occasion when Albert Speer goes
        see him and Hitler complains to him that the foreign
        workers are not getting enough to eat.  Speer says:
        this was a Fuhrer order, mein Fuhrer", and this is
        recorded in the minutes of that conference, and Hitler
        says:  "This is the first I have ever heard of any
        order".  So ----
   Q.   Not only did Himmler take a risk that what he said to
        bunch of Generals on 5th May might get back to the
        and he, Himmler, get a rocket, he said it again on
        did he not?

.          P-122

   A.   Can we see in exactly what terms?
   Q.   Yes, you can.  It is the next document, 188.  Here I
        not think I have the whole document.  The first three
        pages, well, let us look at the front of it, first of
        all.  It is translated, my Lord, on page 74 of
        Longerich 1, or the relevant part is.  It is a speech
        the Reichsfuhrer SS on 24th.  The date has been
        suggesting that it was going to be on some other date,
        you agree?  This is interesting.  We will come to that
        a minute.  You see the date at the top has been
   A.   What are you looking at?
   Q.   Document 188 in the file, H4 (ii).  It is the next
        following document.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   It is the speech of 24th May 1944 again at Sonthofen?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Can you translate the rest of the heading, please?
   A.   "Speech of the Reichsfuhrer SS on 24th May 1944 at
        Sonthofen to the participants in a political
        course (Army Generals)".
   Q.   Can you turn over the page to the next page in the
   A.   In the document or in the...?
   Q.   In the actual document we have?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Such part of it as we have?
   A.   Page 2.

.          P-123

   Q.   Page 2 at the top.  In brackets you have: "RF SS
        Sonthofen", I do not know, but it looks to me as if
        date has been changed from 25th or some later date to
   A.   The typist has it wrong on the first three pages and
        has been subsequently amended in manuscript or
        in manuscript.
   Q.   In places it has been amended, in places it is
   A.   Because by the time she has got to page 4 or 5, she
        realized what the right date should be.
   Q.   What do you think the right date was is what I am
        Can you read it? I cannot.
   A.   24th May.
   Q.   No, I know what the handwriting says.  The overwritten
        typescript looks to me like 25th.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Does it matter?
   MR RAMPTON:  It might do, yes.
   A.   We have Himmler's diary for that date, his calendar,
        which shows clearly the speech was on this date.
   Q.   That is right.  If you look at page 32 as it has at
        top, again the page numbering has been altered by
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   There it is typed correctly, 24.5.44?
   A.   Yes.

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