Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day007.21
Last-Modified: 2000/07/20

   Q.   "It brings us back to the fact that what they are really
        after is to try to stop me speaking, because when I speak
        audiences go away worried about whether the gas chambers"
        plural "and death camps" plural "and the factories of

.          P-181

        death" plural "really did exist or is this really the
        biggest lie of the 20th Century?"
                  I will stop there.  Do not comment.  Please
        listen to my question.  The answer you gave me a
moment
        ago to the effect that when you referred to the
Auschwitz
        legend and there being no gas chambers, was in fact
        intended and never intended to refer to anything but
the
        single reconstructed gas chamber at Auschwitz one.
That
        answer was complete tosh, was it not, Mr Irving?
   A.   We would have to go back and look at the precise
wording
        I used.  I think both statements are entirely
        supportable.  The fact that audiences go away worried
that
        if this is true about this site, what about the other
        sites, it is quite a natural reaction.
   Q.   We will pass now to page 31.  You say with some pride,
        I think, Mr Irving, and I am afraid I do have to take
this
        up now because it is part of my case, I am sorry I did
not
        spot it earlier, proudly as though you scored some
kind of
        wizard point, there is no reference to the Jews
amongst
        all that stuff about the gays, the lesbians, the
        communists and the trade unions.  Let me read on.
   A.   What page are we on?
   Q.   Page 22.  Let me read on.  This is one of some of the
        remarks which I shall rely on at the end of the case.
                  "Is this really the biggest lie of the 20th
        Century, because if it is the biggest lie, then it has
a

.          P-182



        corollary, and that is that hundreds of millions of
        innocent people who have been bamboozled", I will miss
out
        the "who" I think, "hundreds of millions of innocent
        people have been bamboozled, and they have been
bamboozled
        for a purpose.  And the purpose I think we can all say
on
        reflection, looking over our own perception of the
media,
        is that every time a Jewish financier, a John
Guttfreund,
        the Salomon brothers or Ivan Boesky or Ernest Saunders
or
        one of these, or Michael Milken, everyone time one of
them
        is caught with his hands deep in the till and he has,
yes,
        that's true, he has undoubtedly bilked hundreds of
        thousands of investors out of every penny they have
        got" ----
   A.   That was Mr Michael Milken.  He went to prison for it.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Please let Mr Rampton continue.
   MR RAMPTON:  Mr Irving.  "Michael Milken and the rest of
them,
        people have gone to the wall, they have put all their
        money into junk bonds and the rest of it, and these
        financiers have laughed like Ivan Boesky paid $100
million
        fine on the instruction of the American Government and
        they still laughed because they can afford it".
                  Now what is that passage?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can you read the next three or four
lines.
   A.   Precisely.
   MR RAMPTON:  "When you read this kind of story and if you
        realize that they are Jewish, then the invitation is
that

.          P-183



        the man in the street should say: Yes, but they have
        suffered, haven't they?  They did the have Holocaust."
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is it.
   A.   Yes.
   MR RAMPTON:  What is the point of putting that glorious
purple
        prose passage into this speech about Auschwitz, tell
me?
   A.   Because first of all may I say this is not only my
        opinion, even leading Jewish experts like Professor
Peter
        Novac of the University Chicago quite recently within
the
        last two or three months ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Answer for yourself, Mr Irving.
   A.   --- has stated precisely the same point.  They have
said
        that the whole of the Holocaust industry has been
        generated in order to prevent, to create a kind of
safety
        curtain, a fire wall which protects, for example, as
        Professor Peter Novic says, the activities of the
Israeli
        Government on the West Bank, which protects, for
example,
        the entire Jewish population in the United States from
        criticism to which they might otherwise be subjected.
        I think this is a perfectly reasonable statement and
        I would not have made it if I did not know that I was
        buttressed by leading Jewish authorities who are
equally
        aware of precisely the same origins or possible
origins of
        part of the present promotion of the Holocaust story.
We
        will be listening to one of my own experts on this,
        Professor McDonald, on precisely this matter when the
time

.          P-184



        comes.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  So the Holocaust is a kind of a lie
dreamt up
        in order to excuse crooked Jewish financiers?
   A.   I would like to endorse your Lordship's wording but
        I cannot.  I did not put it like that.
   Q.   What are you saying if you are not saying that?
   A.   I have said here that there is a body of opinion which
        says that one possible cause for the promotion of this
        particular legend is the fact they find it serves a
        purpose to protect their community from criticism
which
        might otherwise be levelled against them because of
their
        activities in the world of finance, or because of
their
        brutality on the West Bank or whatever.  I certainly
would
        not have made that kind of statement had I not known
that
        senior members of their own community are worried on
        precisely the same score.  I mentioned the name of
        Professor Peter Novic of the University of Chicago
whose
        book is about to be published in this country too
        I believe.  They cannot be insulated from criticism
just
        because of the Holocaust, and I think most members of
the
        Jewish community would find it repugnant to suggest
that
        they were or they should be.
   MR RAMPTON:  Can we move on in this transcript, please,
        Mr Irving, to page 31, bottom of the page.
   A.   This is transcript No. 9.
   Q.   I am still in transcript No. 9.  "I don't see any
reason

.          P-185



        to be tasteful about Auschwitz."  You have heard this
        before of course.  "It's baloney.  It's a legend.
Once we
        admit the fact that it was a brutal slave labour camp
and
        large numbers of people did die, as large numbers of
        innocent people died elsewhere in the war.  Why
believe
        the rest of the baloney?  I say quite tastelessly in
fact
        that more people died on the back seat of Edward
Kennedy's
        car at Chappaquidick than ever died in gas chamber",
note
        you do not say "the gas chamber", "a gas chamber in
        Auschwitz.  Laughter." Laughter, Mr Irving?
   A.   No laughter is just once there, Mr Rampton.
   Q.   Laughter.  That is three times.
   A.   That is three times, Mr Rampton.  Now you are getting
        appreciative laughter from your audience.
   Q.   Why should your audience think that what you yourself
        describe as "tasteless", why should they think that is
        funny?
   A.   Possibly because you omitted the beginning of that
        paragraph, Mr Rampton.  Can I read it?  "Why did
Gorbochov
        release the Auschwitz records?  A very interesting
        question.  This was in September 21st 1989.  Tass, the
        Soviet News Agency, announced that they had 'now
        found' all the death books of Auschwitz which sent a
        shudder through every Jewish so-called refugee around
the
        world notice word so-called around the world."  Notice
the
        word "so-called" around the world. "Every so-called

.          P-186



        survivor of the Holocaust or survivor of Auschwitz,
people
        who claimed they had been in Auschwitz.  When they
heard
        that the Russians announced that they had found all
the
        death books and the entire filing cards of every
prisoner
        who had been in Auschwitz, suddenly there was a lot
        reshuffling went on.  Ely Weasel, for example, no
longer
        claimed to be a survivor of Auschwitz.  He suddenly
        decided he was a survivor of Dachau or Vukenvau.  He
was
        not even quite sure about that."
                  We are talking here about the spurious
survivors
        of the Holocaust which is the second S in that word
you
        are just going to come to which has been left out of
the
        transcript.
   Q.   Will you read on the next sentence, please, about
        Mr Wiesel.  "In fact he seems to have done quite a
cook's
        tour of the different concentration camps.  Laughter."
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   What is it, do you think, that you your audience is
        laughing about?
   A.   Because they know that Ely Wiesel is a particularly
        unpopular character.  Even the Jewish community holds
him
        as being particularly unpopular because of his
posturing.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Sorry, posturing, what is the posturing?
   A.   He is a poser.  He is on all the presidential
committees.
        He is on all the Holocaust memorial museum committees.
He
        has made a lot of money out of the Holocaust, and yet
he

.          P-187



        cannot quite remember which camp he was in, my Lord.
   Q.   Is that so surprising?
   A.   If I was in Auschwitz ----
   Q.   Tell me.  I would like to know your answer.
   A.   My Lord, if I was in Auschwitz I would remember it was
        Auschwitz and not Vukenvau or Bergen Belsen or Dachau.
        That is what his problem is, my Lord.  The world is
full
        of people come forward and claim to have been
survivors of
        Auschwitz, most recently the notorious case of
Benjamin
        Wilkomersky who was recently exposed by the BBC.  I
find
        these spurious -- I have the utmost sympathy for
people
        genuinely suffered the torments and horrors of
Auschwitz
        and these other camps, and let there be no doubt
        whatsoever about that, but the spurious survivors who
are
        trying to cash in now by saying they too were there,
that
        is the people I reserve this association of spurious
        survivors of the Holocaust, "the arseholes" as they
        referred to here.  I agree that is a frightfully
tasteless
        word to use and I would not normally use it in public.
        But I have the greatest contempt for these people who
are
        trying to climb on the Holocaust bandwagon.
   MR RAMPTON:  And it is not a laughing matter if they should
do
        so, is it, Mr Irving?
   A.   These unfortunates who claim they were there and never
        been anywhere near Auschwitz, yes.
   Q.   People who fraudulently, if there are any such people,

.          P-188



        people who fraudulently ----
   A.   You do not believe the case of Mr Wilkomersky who said
he
        had been there?
   Q.   I know well about the case of Mr Wilkomersky and I am
not
        going to discuss ----
   A.   So the word "if" is misplaced.
   Q.   It is not misplaced necessarily, Mr Irving.  We are
not
        going to, unless his Lordship tells us we are, going
to
        examine the case of Mr Benjamin Wilkomersky, the Swiss
        orchestral musician, in this court, if you do not
mind.
        Mr Irving, you will not answer my questions, I know,
        because you do not like them, but please answer:  Why
        should such a serious matter as fraudulent Holocaust
or
        Auschwitz pretence or posturing provoke laughter from
your
        audience?
   A.   Because there is something ludicrous about it,
something
        pathetic about it, and the notion that a lot of these
        spurious survivors had been found out by the Russians
of
        all people who were publishing the index cards, made
known
        that they had found the index cards of everyone who
was a
        genuine survivor which promoted the scurrying that
went on
        for the few weeks after that.  That is what provoked
the
        laughter I am afraid.
   Q.   Can I suggest something completely different, and
perhaps
        a little nearer to the truth of the matter.  That
remark,
        those remarks about spurious survivors, the remark
about

.          P-189



        Edward Kennedy's car at Chappaquidick, the remark over
the
        page about arseholes, as we call them in this country,
        provoked the laughter they did because you were
amongst an
        audience of anti-Semitics, these remarks were intended
to
        provoke that kind of laughter.  You can see that, if
you
        like, from the very way in which they are phrased?
   A.   I do not think so.  I think I was amongst an audience
of
        antiphonies.
   Q.   Did not you notice anything when you were talking
about
        the way in which the Holocaust is used to protect
        frightful Jewish criminals like Boesky, did you not
detect
        anything in the wording of that passage reminiscent of
        Dr Goebbels in it, in the way you relish the
dishonesty of
        these Jewish people?
   A.   I relish the dishonesty of the Jews?
   Q.   So it seems to me, Mr Irving, please comment on that?
   A.   Now I am stuck here with a bit of a problem, because
        Jewish historians have made precisely the same comment
        I have.  The Jewish community have made precisely the same
        comment that I have.  Jewish sociologists have made
        precisely the same comment that I have.  Are suggesting
        that only Jewish sociologists are entitled to make this
        kind of hostile comment about the reasons for the
        propagation of the Holocaust story, and that non-Jewish
        historians are to be excluded from this kind of comment?

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