Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day005.17
Last-Modified: 2000/08/01

   Q.   It is the first heading I am interested in under point one
        or as to point one, urgent transports, I cannot read the
        next word, can you help me with that?
   A.   Proposed, "polkishen".
   Q.   What does it mean?
   A.   Urgent transport proposed by the Chief of Security Police
        and by the Security Service.
   Q.   Is that ----
   A.   Heydrich.
   Q.   --- Heydrich?
   A.   No, at this time it would be Carleton Brunner.  Heydrich
        was killed.
   Q.   How high up is that?
   A.   Directly under Himmler.
   Q.   Directly under Himmler.  What he has ordered are ----

.          P-150



   A.   Two trains per day from the district of Walsall to
        Treblinka; one train per day from the district of
Random
        to Treblinka; one train per day from the district of
        Krakow to Belzec, and one train per day from the
district
        of Lemberg or the Wolff to Belzec.
   Q.   That makes a total, I think I am right, of 5,000 a
day?
   A.   That would be approximately 5,000.
   Q.   Can you for me, please, just complete the sentence
because
        it was not, after Lemberg and then the numbers there
is
        some more, is there not?
   A.   "Could be conducted".
   Q.   Yes.
   A.   That is in the subjunctive.  "Waren" with the 200 G-
wagen,
        which are presumably goods trucks, "which have already
        been placed at our disposal for this purpose by the
        headquarters of the Krakow Railways, as far as this
can be
        carried out or is feasible".
   Q.   Thank you very much.  So they are reporting, what, a
        proposal or an event or series of events?
   A.   It is an estimate of what we can do with the transport
        capacity placed at our disposal.
   Q.   Available rolling stock, they can do 5,000 a day to
two of
        these three places in the East, except that the one
train
        a day from Lemberg which, as you say, is what I call
        "Lavof" which is in what is now the Ukraine and then
was
        Galicia, is going eastwards if it is going to Belzec,
is

.          P-151



        it not?
   A.   One train a day is going from Lemberg to Belzec that
is on
        the frontier, yes.
   Q.   It is going eastwards.  It is crossing ----
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   --- from Galicia westwards into the General
Government?
   A.   It is right on the Eastern border of the General
        Government, about two kilometres from the edge.
   Q.   So the Jews of Lemberg, to give it its German name,
are
        being transported eastwards to Belzec?
   A.   To Belzec two kilometres from the border, yes.
   Q.   Yes.  No sense then in which Belzec can be regarded as
a
        transit camp, is there, for movement further
eastwards?
   A.   These destinations that are in this document which I
am
        seeing for the first time, Treblinka, Belzec, they are
all
        on the border, what I might say the exit door, of the
        General Government.
   Q.   Yes.
   A.   It is like standing something next to the door where
they
        are robbed.  Everything is taken off them by Operation
        Reinhardt.  Then we do not know, on the basis of this
        document, what happened to them after that.
   Q.   Trains converge on Belzec containing Jews in vast
numbers,
        frankly, from East and West.  Belzec most likely,
        Mr Irving, is in any sense of the word a terminus, is
it
        not?

.          P-152



   A.   Did you say they are coming from East and West?
   Q.   Yes.  If you look down what is proposed next, the line
is
        bust at the moment, they are going to start up in
        November, then trains are going to go from Lublin to
        Belzec?
   A.   Where is that?
   Q.   I am sorry, read the next bit then.
   A.   After the restoration of the railway line from Lublin
to
        Chelm.
   Q.   Yes.
   A.   Probably on about 1st November.
   Q.   Yes.
   A.   "The" other urgent transports will also be, we can
also
        carry out the other urgent transports, namely one
train
        per day from Radom to Sobibor; one train per day from
        Lublin.
   Q.   Lublin North.
   A.   Lublin North to Belzec and one train per day from
Lublin
        centre to Sobibor.
   Q.   So once that is in operation, which is in about a
month's
        time, five weeks time, Belzec will be receiving Jews
both
        from the West?
   A.   From Lublin.
   Q.   From Lublin and from the East, Lavof?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Lemberg?

.          P-153



   A.   Yes.
   Q.   I am sorry about this, Mr Irving, but sometimes junior
        counsel and experts produce aid in a case like this.
        H1(ix) I think you may already have, unless his
Lordship's
        advice about housekeeping has been rigorously obeyed.
My
        Lord, H1(ix), page 329.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.
   A.   Yes, it is one of the relevant documents.  It is still
        only a transcript, but it is it is more useful.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What tab is it?
   MR RAMPTON:  329, my Lord.  You will find the translations,
my
        Lord, at pages 429 to 30 of Evans.
   A.   If your Lordship has the document, I draw attention
only
        to the security classification which is "Geheim" on
page
        329.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Where do I get what the security
        classification is?
   A.   On about the tenth line, G-E-H-E-I-M.
   Q.   That is secret?
   A.   Yes.  It is just the lowest security classification
there
        is, apart from "vertraulich" which is confidential,
        whereas everything to do with the killing operations,
at
        any rate anything that could be explicitly recognized
as
        killing operations, was a much higher classification.
        I shall be making that point once or twice.
   Q.   But against that this is not in a sense a compromising

.          P-154



        document on its face.  It is simply saying these
trains
        are going to Treblinka?
   A.   I agree, my Lord, but taken in conjunction with the
other
        document in this pair where Wolff writes back saying,
you
        remember, "It's a good thing that 5,000, a chosen few,
per
        day are going that way."  I do not know if the reply
is
        also there, is it?  Here is Wolff replying in the next
        one.
   Q.   He is W, is he?
   A.   Yes, he is W. "Dear Comrade, Ganzenmuller", and again
this
        document has no classification at all.  This is from
my
        own files, my Lord.  This is actually from Himmler's
        papers and it has no classification rating at all.  If
you
        look at the square box, the rubber stamp at the top
        right-hand corner, my Lord, you will have see on that
        little bundle I have gave you this morning, I had
printed
        in red there was one such little bundle translated
into
        English and that had the security classification on
it.
        The third line of that box where it says "actung
nummer"
        which would be file number, would have afterwards G-E-
H
        oblique stroke, and then they would write in
handwriting
        the secret file number, if this was a classified
        document.  So neither of these two correspondents,
        Ganzenmuller or Wolff, considered this matter they
were
        talking about to be secret, and I shall be leading
        evidence, my Lord, that the SS were very pernickety
about

.          P-155



        security classifications on their documents.
   Q.   But there is nothing compromising, as I say, on the
face
        of either of these documents.  It is just trans going
to
        Treblinka?
   A.   Even documents that were written as euphemisms had the
        security classification put on them which was rather
        self-defeating.
   MR RAMPTON:  I am puzzled by that.  I am puzzled for two
        reasons, Mr Irving.  The first document is not an
        original, I think.  It is a Nuremberg reprint, is it
not?
   A.   It is a transcript, yes.
   Q.   But that does not tell us anything about what its
original
        classification might be?
   A.   It does, if you excuse me, it has the German
        classification on it.
   Q.   Which is?
   A.   About the tenth, Geheim, G-E-H-E-I-M, in the centre.
   Q.   What does that mean?
   A.   Secret.
   Q.   Oh, secret?
   A.   Yes.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  But that is a low security
classification,
        that is what Mr Irving has just said.
   A.   The only one lower than that was "vertraulich" which
means
        confidential.  Before that there are three or four
        successive ranks.  You have Geheimreichs,

.          P-156



        Geheimschetaffe(?) and (?)offizier which means only an
        officer can carry it.
   Q.   Very learned, Mr Irving, and it is quite right you
should
        say it.
   A.   Are you sneering at my expertise?
   Q.   No, I am not sneering at your expertise.  Actually I
am
        complaining about the way you keep making speeches in
        answer to questions I have not asked, if you want to
        know.
   A.   I think his Lordship has indicated in the view of the
fact
        that I am a litigant in person I am allowed a little
bit
        of latitude in making points which I would otherwise
have
        no opportunity to make.
   Q.   Yes, but may I suggest if you are going to do that, to
        which I have no objection whatsoever, you make your
        observations to his Lordship and not to me.  We are
not
        having an argument.  You are answering questions under
        oath.  Now I am trying to find the translation of this
        document.  Yes, I have found it.  My Lord, it is the
        bottom of paragraph 4 of page 430 of Evans, but I dare
say
        there are other versions.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Page 430 of?
   MR RAMPTON:  Of Evans, my Lord.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.
   MR RAMPTON:  This is from Ganzenmuller whose precise
position
        is what?

.          P-157



   A.   Secretary of State, Staff Secretare, which is the
        Permanent Under Secretary in the Ministry of
Transport.
   Q.   In Berlin?
   A.   In Berlin.
   Q.   Is he a senior Civil Servant?
   A.   A very senior Civil Servant.
   Q.   A very senior Civil Servant.  He writes to Wolff?
   A.   Karl Wolff was the personal adjutant of Heydrich
Himmler.
   Q.   Yes, and it was Karl Wolff who was quite often, am
        I wrong, tell me if I am, as it were, seconded by
Himmler
        to Hitler, is that right, or have I got that wrong?
   A.   It was a floating kind of relationship.  Karl Wolff
was
        very close to Hitler.  He fell out over a marital
dispute
        I think, a matrimonial dispute, but actually his
position
        was Chief Adjutant of Heydrich Himmler.  He was never
on
        Hitler's staff.  He was on Himmler's staff.
   Q.   No.  What I am driving at is obvious I think, Mr
Irving.
        Karl Wolff was in a position if Adolf Hitler should
say to
        him one day, say late August or September or July
1942,,
        "How is it going in the East?", Wolff is in a position
to
        tell him?
   A.   Undoubtedly, yes.  He would have told him about these
        train loads of Jews being shipped off to Treblinka.
   Q.   You can imagine the conversation.  This is pure fancy
on
        my part of course.  "Karl, how is it going in the
East?
        Well, we've good news from Ganzenmuller that they're
able

.          P-158



        to shift about 35,000 of the chosen people a week to
these
        camps in the East."  That is all, as simple as that.
   A.   Yes.  Hitler of course never used deprecatory phrases
like
        "the chosen people".
   Q.   No.  He used nice complimentary phrases like
"parasites"
        and "bacilli", did he not?
   A.   That is right.  But of course this is just your
        imagination which has no evidentiary value whatsoever
in
        this action.
   Q.   No, of course not, but Wolff was in a position, what I
am
        saying is Wolff was close to Hitler, close to the
thrown,
        was he not?
   A.   He was close to Himmler's thrown.  He was on Himmler's
        personal staff.
   Q.   And Hitler's too.  You just old us he was close to
Hitler?
   A.   I made it quite specific.  He was on Himmler's staff,
not
        on Hitler's staff, but he was a frequent visitor to
        Hitler's headquarters.
   Q.   Can you look at this letter and tell us what it says,
        please.  It says something about a telephone call on
16th
        July, does it not?
   A.   Which letter are we talking about?
   Q.   This one from Ganzenmuller to Wolff.
   A.   "Referring to our telephone conversation of July 16th
1942
        I inform you of the following report from my general
        direction of the Eastern Railroads in Krakow for your
own

.          P-159



        personal information."

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