Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day005.09 Last-Modified: 2000/08/01 Q. I am afraid I think it is. You see, Mr Irving, your position is that the gas chambers of Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka and Auschwitz did not exist, so how do you think Himmler and his bods were carrying out the killings on a massive scale which they did not want Hitler to know about? A. I am just checking on the date. Well, my position on that really is that on the basis of the documents, I am not in a position at this time of writing that to be specific . P-73 about what kind of camouflage is going on; but it did seem plain to me on reading this agenda that Himmler had written for his talk with Hitler, dated either September 17th or 22nd, that if he just jotted down conditions in the government general and Globus there was possibly something sinister being discussed between them, but that Himmler was not going into detail about it. More than that, I could not say on the basis of what I had. Q. Well. We will have a look at the wording of the Himmler note. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Rampton, it strikes me this is quite important. Could we -- this is for my benefit and, bear in mind, you have the advantage of me -- I just ask about the reference made in Himmler's gentle rebuke of 28th July what, Mr Irving, you understand the liberation of the Jews entrusted to Himmler by the Fuhrer really means? A. The territories are to be liberated of Jews. Q. By the physical deportation or continued shooting or by gassing? A. My contention here is that Hitler has clearly ordered the Jews turfed out of all these countries and I have always said this. Q. So it means that and no more than that? A. There is no evidence for anything uglier than that, and I would be surprised if Professor Evans has found any evidence that there was and certainly that there was any . P-74 evidence that was before me at the time I wrote the book. I have been very careful not to go over what the evidence actually bears out when I write this. When I quote a document like this, I put in what the document says and I try to let the reader draw their own conclusions. Q. But even now you would take that view, in the light of your present knowledge? A. With the utmost respect, what I think now is immaterial for the purposes of the issues pleaded. Q. Well, I do not agree for the reason I think I explained yesterday, namely that if one is judging your approach as an historian, how you interpret fresh information is something that we can legitimately ask you about; do you remember I made that point to you? A. I appreciate that point, my Lord. But in that case I would then have to devote time to looking at the documents all over again and reevaluating them in order to be able to give a balanced answer to that now. Q. If you feel that you would need to do that, I understand. A. I think I would have to do that. MR RAMPTON: As I am about to embark on the documents, my Lord, I will ask the question I was going to ask about the entry in the Himmler log, but then maybe Mr Irving could spend a little bit of time between the end of that and 2 o'clock looking at the documents? A. And having lunch. . P-75 Q. Well, it is a problem that faces everybody in the profession, Mr Irving. A. Mr Rampton, in this volume which you also have, which is the Himmler diary, it is on page 566, and my date reading is correct. It is September 17th. You rather worried me on that. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think you are right there in saying it does not in the end matter. A. Except that once again, it is only detail, you are quite right, my Lord. I will save my triumph in private. It is on the left-hand page. MR RAMPTON: I agree with you. A. It does not matter, Mr Rampton. Q. I am going to keep this open. A. His Lordship has ruled it does not matter. Q. Can you turn, please, to page 432 of Professor Evans' report? There you see the English set out more or less as it is in German. Is that not right? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Could you give me the reference in the documents as to where one finds that note? MR RAMPTON: One does not. One has to look in this book. Can I hand it up? MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sorry. I assumed it was somewhere. MR RAMPTON: I cannot find it in ---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sorry. I did not realize there was a problem. I am sorry. I have wasted a certain amount of . P-76 time. MR RAMPTON: It is quite all right. I think we should have it. My Lord, in H1(ix). MR JUSTICE GRAY: I probably have not got it here anyway. MR RAMPTON: As I have the Witte version, I suggest we give this to your Lordship. MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is just so I have the reference really. MR RAMPTON: It is at page 364 of the file. Have you got one, Mr Irving? A. No, but I am very familiar with the document. I am the one who found it. I am the one who found it and first used it. Q. Yes. It says in English, well, in German first, "volkstung und ziedlung" which means? A. Volkstung und ziedlung. Q. Yes. A. Well, "volkstung" is one of those very difficult words to translate. It means nationality or ethnicity. Q. And "sietlung" just mean "settlement"? A. "And settlement", yes. Q. Then it says: "Judensauswanderung"? A. "Jew emigration". Q. "Wiezelweitr verfahren werden"? A. "How should we carry on? "How should it be carried on?" There is a tick next to it so they discussed it. Q. And then "Besiedlung" Lublin? . P-77 A. "Resettlement of Lublin" in that sense, really, once it was empty, then settlement. Q. And a line against it? A. The sense is that they are going to use people, citizens from Lorraine, the Germans from Bosnia and ethnic Germans from Bessarabia which is a province of Romania. Q. Which suggests, does it not, that the Jews who have been sent on an auswanderung will make room -- the Jews of Lublin -- will make room for these people from Loraine, Bosnia and Bessarabia? A. That is a reasonable assumption that the two facts are interdependent. Q. Then the right-hand column matters not, but "verhaltnisse", circumstances, general governor or, no, General Government it must be, must it not, Globus? A. It could be either, but the likelihood is it is government general. Q. Globus, if I may use a wrong word, is the Czar of Lublin is he not? A. He is the chief of police. Q. Yes, and Lublin is in the General Government? A. Yes. Q. So it would fall to Globus -- he is an SS man, is he not? A. He was one of the mass murderers. Q. Yes, he was. He was under Himmler's, he is in Himmler's ---- . P-78 A. He is the senior SS and police chief, Hohere SS und Polizei. Q. So he has been given, or is going to get, the responsibility for the further processing or procedure of the auswanderung and replacement with Germans, ethnic Germans. That is right, is it not? A. Mr Rampton, you are beginning to join dots in a very adventurous way which is not supported by any of the words actually on the paper in front of me. Q. Globus, Lublin is in the General Government? A. Yes. Q. Globus is head of police, or whatever it is, and, as you rightly say, one of the mass murderers in Lublin. The proposal is that Lublin shall be settled with people of German origin from different parts of Europe, and that comes immediately under the heading "Emigration of Jews, how to be further proceeded"? A. Right, but you are missing the first word in that line which is "verhaltnisse" which is circumstances, conditions, and although, of course, we are now Holocaust obsessed in this world at present, other things were happening in the government general than just killing Jews which is what you would maintain. Q. No, the ---- A. The resettlement programme, the deportation of large numbers of innocent people to uncertain areas in the East . P-79 was causing great civilian unrest. There were posters appearing overnight saying, "This week it is the Jews, next week it may be you, Poles". There were major problems of civilian moral problems in the government general and, if you look at my Goebbels' biography, you will see references to this when telegrammes come from the propaganda offices in these regions, back to the Berlin Ministry saying, "We are having major problems caused by this". So, this is just one example of the dangers of leaping from mountain peak to mountain peek. There are things happening in between of which this document gives us no cognisance, but of which I have cognisance. So that why it is very dangerous, I think, to leap to conclusions. Q. Well, I am not leaping to conclusions, Mr Irving. Though I may not have your enormous wisdom and knowledge on this topic, I have learned a certain amount. After you have had a chance to think about the documents which come up to and beyond this point, ending with the conference in Berlin on 26th and 28th September -- that is the only that comes after this point ---- A. The conference in Berlin between whom? Q. --- we are going to let everybody take cognisance of the surrounding material. We can start now if you want. A. Yes, but, of course, these reports I referred to were in my discovery for your experts to see relating to the . P-80 severe moral problems and internal unrest caused by the Nazi methods in Poland. Q. Mr Irving, I am not saying that there is any certainty about what this document means, but one of its most natural interpretation, surely, is this, that the emigration of the Jews from wherever needed to be further proceeded, if that is the right translation, and Himmler wanted Hitler's views about that. As a subtopic of that, it was proposed that Lublin should be settled with German speakers from different parts of Europe. That might depend upon the verhaltnisse and the responsibility would be that of Globus within the General Government. It does not say any more than that on its face, does it? A. It says a lot less than that, Mr Rampton, with respect. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Why does it say less? A. He is filling in the dots, my Lord, in an overdangerous way. First of all, this passage in the right-hand column, if I am familiar with these Himmler's notes, is something that has been added either after or during the actual talk. It is not something which is primarily on the agenda, but something which has come up. So this is the first reason why it is dangerous to hang too much on that. I can only respectfully submit that I made the proper use of that by referring only to the content of what the note tells us and not being too adventurous about speculating to my own advantage or against ---- . P-81 MR JUSTICE GRAY: What I am not following at the moment is why you say Mr Rampton is being adventurous. He is simply saying that this means, on a sensible interpretation, Lublin is going to have to be resettled? A. That I accept. Q. These are the people we intend to resettle there? A. That I entirely accept, my Lord. Q. The circumstances need to be discussed and Globus is going to have something to do with it. That is all Mr Rampton, I think, was suggesting that paragraph to mean. A. I accept the first two parts of that, my Lord, but when he continues to say that when they are talking about circumstances and the government general and Globus, this can only refer to killing Jews. I think this is a very ---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: He did not say that. MR RAMPTON: I did not say that. I have never said it. I will say it. A. If Mr Rampton does not say that, then we are totally in accord. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us take it in stages. MR RAMPTON: I will say it, but I will not say it yet because I have not laid the ground for it, but be sure as eggs I will say it, yes, of course. A. Well, then I was right to pre-empt. Q. No, you were not. What, Mr Irving, this document also . P-82 talks about is how to further the emigration of the Jews, does it not? A. How we are to proceed, yes. Q. Well, yes, how are we to proceed. It has already been taking place on a large scale from all different parts of Europe by September 1942, has it not? A. There are all sorts of train movements going hither and... Q. All over the place, both within the general government and out of the Reich, and I do not know what the date of the first Slovakian transport was, and so on and so forth. That is something which is already well underway. This document is silent about what is to happen to those Jews or has happened to those. It is completely silent about it, is it not? A. That is why I made the reference about wool being pulled over people's eyes.
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