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   Q.   That not evidence, that is an absence of evidence?
   A.   It is evidence in a very powerful sense.

.          P-92

   Q.   It is a negative piece of evidence?
   A.   I hate to remind you of the basic principle of English
        that a man is innocent until proven guilty; am I
   Q.   Hitler is not on trial, alas.
   A.   Is Hitler somehow excluded from this general rule of
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think that is a slightly --
   THE WITNESS:   Mr Rampton talks about absence of evidence
        counting, all the world's archive are effectively now
        to us, there has not come forward any collateral
        and as for a 22 year-old SS man's word being believed
        he has the power of life and death over thousands of
        who have just been ordered shot, this SS man obviously
        more front than Selfridges, he is going around saying,
        yes, we have orders, I have orders, do not come
        me, that is what is going on here.  That is the way I
        that and that is the way any responsible historian
        read it.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Let us move on.  You accept a lot what is
   A.   -- I do indeed.
   Q.   But you do not accept that particular --
   A.   Certainly not to the degree --
   Q.   As it was reflecting the reality?
   A.   -- that one general's recollection of what a 22 year
        SS man told him in Riga should be taken discounting

.          P-93

        negative evidence as Mr Rampton calls it of all the
        world's archives.
   MR RAMPTON:  Mr Irving, I am not going to take you up on
        you can argue with my experts about that if you like.
        I am interested in the way you write your books.  Both
        the Nuremberg book, and we will not need to look at
        because we are looking for a black hole, both in the
        Nuremberg book and in the Goebbels book you mention,
        either in the text or in a footnote, or both, the
        call it what you like?
   A.   Yes, I consider my duty to draw everyone's attention
        this report.
   Q.   But nowhere in either of those books do you mention
        of these exchanges that Bruns reported he had with
   A.   You are repeating yourself, I will repeat the answer.
   Q.   You repeat your answer, yes, please.
   A.   No, I did not.
   Q.   No, you did not.  You actually have done this with the
        Altemeyer passages; may I show you?  Can you find,
        file D3(i), I think it is tab 27 that I want.  I will
        you where to look in a moment, Mr Irving, I just want
        remind you and his Lordship of what Bruns actually
said on
        Altemeyer's return with an order from Berlin after the
        shootings had been reported.  "Here is an order, just
        issued, prohibiting mass shootings on that scale from

.          P-94

        taking place in the future."  That is your translation
        the German.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   It is one that I agree with.
   A.   This is from my introduction?
   Q.   Yes, but then it goes on, does the sentence reported
        General Bruns: "They are to be carried out more
        discreetly."  That is the full text of General Bruns'
        words as a report of what he was told by Altemeyer.
        you please look at page 415 of the document which is
        tab 27 which is a written introduction by you in the
        Journal of Historical Review, to your new edition of
        "Hitler's War".  At the end of that article there are
        some footnotes on page 415.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Why are we looking at it there as opposed
        in the copy?
   A.   That is what I am wondering.
   MR RAMPTON:  Copy of which book?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  We have the whole of "Hitler's War".
   MR RAMPTON:  It is not in the book.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I thought you said it was.
   MR RAMPTON:   No.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:   I thought this was the introduction to
        1991 edition.
   MR RAMPTON:  Well, I do not think it is. It is an edition
        I have not got, that is why.  That is why we have it

.          P-95

   MR JUSTICE GRAY:   I follow.
   THE WITNESS:   We also have a date on that, January 1989.
   Q.   Two dates '76 and '89.
   A.   That answers the point.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Two editions.
   MR RAMPTON:  Anyhow, if you look at the footnotes in the
        hand column on page 415, footnote 7 says this: "The
        spine chilling account of... methodical mass murder of
        these Jews [that is the Berlin Jews] at Riga is
        in ... 1158 in file etc. in the Public Record Office,
        Major General Bruns, an eyewitness, describes it to
        generals in British captivity in April 25th 1945
        that hidden micro phones are recording every word.  Of
        particular significance his qualms about bringing what
        had seen to the Fuhrer's attention and the latter's
        is Hitler's] renewed orders that such mass murders
were to
        stop forthwith"?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   As an account of what Bruns is recorded as having said
        that is completely dishonest, is it not?
   A.   Does it say that the Bruns account is the only source
        that final paragraph, that final sentence?
   Q.   It purports to be an account of what Bruns said, does
        not, Mr Irving?
   A.   It references the Bruns' file as the source of that

.          P-96

        material in the main text, and it adds the comment:
        particular significance his qualms about bringing
        what he has seen to the Fuhrer's attention and the
        latter's renewed orders that such mass murders were to
        stop forthwith".  In other words, that was of
   Q.   Of particular significance in the Bruns's eyewitness
   A.   I do not say that.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Read it through to yourself again.
   MR RAMPTON:  Read it through.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  And consider that answer, Mr Irving.
   A.   Of the particular significance his qualms about
        what he had seen to the Fuhrer's attention and the
        latter's renewed orders that such mass murders were to
        stop forthwith.  I see no objection to that as being
        encapsulated version of Bruns's report -- may I read
        from the Bruns' report the sentences on which I would
   MR RAMPTON:  No, you may not, Mr Irving.  I would like you
        read the whole of that footnote and I shall repeat my
        question, and we will have a "yes" or "no" if you
   A.   You will not let me read out these sentences in the
        report on which I rely?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  In a moment.  Just do what Mr Rampton is
        asking at the moment.

.          P-97

   A.   Very well. "The most spine killing account --"
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, read it to yourself.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes, I did not mean.
   A.   Well, because I am accused of being a Holocaust denier
        is interesting that I am repeatedly saying this kind
        thing, including in journals like this.  You do not me
        read it out loud?
   Q.   I would like you to read it yourself.
   A.   You do not want public to hear what I wrote.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It has just been read out.
   A.   Yes, I have read it.
   MR RAMPTON:  You have read it.  Now I will repeat my
        do you not agree that read as a whole, as one most
read it
        as a whole, not selecting those little bits which one
        would rather ignore, and you are relying on the ones
        want to be heard, reading that as whole, do you not
        that that is a singularly dishonest account of what
        was recorded as having said?
   A.   I do not agree.
   Q.   Why?
   A.   Can I now draw attention to the sentences in the Bruns
        Report on which I rely?
   Q.   Whatever you wish in answer to my question.
   A.   I will summarize them and you can tell me if it is a
        summary.  They had difficulty, he did not want to
        the report himself, he persuaded a junior army officer

.          P-98

        go down the road and have a look and come back and
        up what he had seen.  The question then was who is
        to bring it to the Fuhrer's attention; they work out a
        to bring to the Fuhrer's attention involving Vice-
        Canaris, shortly the orders come back, such mass
        have to stop.  Am I totally wrong in drawing the
        justified inference that as a result of this army
        officer's report being drawn to the Fuhrer's attention
        orders come, which we have seen in the intercepts that
        such mass murders have to stop.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, can I put it to you straight,
        it were, because this is the suggestion.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   That what you have said as being of particular
        significance, namely the renewed orders that such mass
        murders were to stop forthwith, totally perverts the
        of Bruns' conversation in captivity because Bruns
        clear that Altemeyer said that the killings were to
   A.   I think I have explained the reason why I discounted
        part of his remark, my Lord, this was the...
   Q.   Yes, but are you giving particular significance to a
        proposition which is the opposite of what one finds in
   A.   The decision of the little man on the spot in Riga is
        no significance to the argument that Hitler had given

.          P-99

        order quite clearly that such killings had to stop.
   Q.   Yes.
   A.   Have I made it plain, my Lord.
   Q.   Yes, you have.
   A.   Thank you.  I think that --
   MR RAMPTON:  Do you think, Mr Irving, that if General Bruns
        were here today he would think what you have done with
        what he said was fair and honest?
   A.   -- taken in elements, stage by stage, yes.
   Q.   Do you?  I see.  You said it again in that same file
        have got there, I think it is at -- it is at tab 30,
        is a paper, I think, presented by you at the Institute
        Historical Review, a talk given by you?
   A.   A talk?
   Q.   Yes, a talk, in October 1992, and the passage which
        matters is again an account of the Bruns evidence on
        24, ignore the stamped number at the bottom of page,
24 of
        the article.  I think this is an answer to a question
        likely.  Yes, it is.  It is in the bottom part of the
        left-hand column on that page' does your Lordship have
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I have.
   MR RAMPTON:  This is the last thing, my Lord, I do before
        adjournment if that is convenient.
                  "But other reports unfortunately have the
        of authenticity.  Most of these SS officers, the
        that carried out the mass shootings were I think

.          P-100

        from the meanest of motives.  There was a particular
        officer in Riga who is described in the report by
Bruns in
        which Bruns said the difficulty for us was how to
        to draw what he had seen what we had seen to the
        attention, and eventually they sent a lieutenant down
        road and got him to write what he saw and they sent
        report signed by the lieutenant up to the Fuhrer's
        headquarters through Canaris.  Two days later the
        comes back from Hitler 'these mass shootings' [in
        notice, Mr Irving] these mass shootings have to stop
        once so [and this is now you again] Hitler intervened
        stop it."
                  As a quotation from the evidence of General
        Bruns those words in quotes:  "These mass shootings
        got to stop at once", is a complete perversion, is it
        of what Bruns actually said?
   A.   What is the difference?
   Q.   He said these mass shootings have got to stop at once,
        they have to be done more discreetly?
   A.   The 22 year old SS man allegedly said that to Bruns --
   Q.   That is what Bruns is reported as having told his
   A.   -- yes.

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