Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day002.18 Last-Modified: 2000/07/20 Q. Is that is correct. As a consequence of that, you have come to believe, perhaps it was a matter of protest, perhaps not, I do not know, that the Nazis did not use gas chambers for the extermination of Jews let alone millions of Jews? . P-255 A. Yes, I have become very sceptical of that element of the story. Q. And you have publicly expressed your disbelief? A. Scepticism, yes. Q. So if and in so far as that forms a part of people's belief about the Holocaust, you are a Holocaust denier? A. No. Q. Are you not? A. No. You do not have to believe in the whole to be a believer. How many of us are Christians who do not believe in every aspect of the Christian ethos? Q. All right. I do not think we ought to argue metaphysics, Mr Irving. A. It is a metaphysics problem you are putting there. You are saying: Believe the whole thing or you are a denier and you are ruined. You will not eat lunch in this town again. Q. I did not. I said in so far as that forms a part of people's belief about the Holocaust, you deny that part, put it like that? A. Mr Rampton, are you leading evidence on people ---- Q. I am asking you ---- A. --- people's belief? Q. I am asking you a question. If it should be thought that it forms a part of common belief about the nature of the Holocaust that large numbers of Jews were systematically . P-256 gassed in purpose-built gas chambers, you are a Holocaust denier, are you not? A. I do not know this does form a large part of people's beliefs and I do not think you are allowed to lead evidence on people's beliefs in an effort to back it up. Q. Mr Irving, only one last little bit about that. Whatever methods were used, and you deny the use of gas chambers, whatever methods were used to kill large numbers of Jews, whether they are 1, 2 or 3 or 6 million, you say it was not systematic, is that right? A. Would you elucidate precisely what you mean by "systematic"? Something organised and ordered from the highest level of the Third Reich or something ordered from halfway up the system, or something that was just a system within the camp? I think the word "systematic" is a bit of a man trap. Q. You know quite a lot about the shootings in the East after Barbarossa in June 1941, do you not? A. As I said this morning, they appeared to be chaotic, disorganized and arbitrary. Q. You know that ---- A. As that one signal proves that I read out. Q. You know, do you not, that regularly, indeed frequently, reports were sent back in writing from the East, from the units in the East, from the Einsatzgruppen and other units in the East, enumerating and totalling the numbers of . P-257 people shot? A. Who were these reports from and to? Q. They are from the Einsatzgruppen to Heydrich's office in Berlin. A. Yes, this is true. Q. Where they are, am I not right, distilled into, as it were, summary reports, meldung? A. Sometimes they were, yes. Q. And there are a large number of these documents, are there not? A. Yes. From whom to whom did these reports go? Q. From the East to Berlin. A. Yes, and the meldung you are talking about made in Berlin, were did they go to? Q. That is a matter of speculation. Assume they went to Heydrich or his office. We are then, are we not, in the top echelons of the Nazi party at this time? A. Yes. Q. Do we need to go any further? A. We do not and I can make your life easier, Mr Rampton, by saying that Adolf Hitler was quite satisfied, I think, with the Einsatzgruppen operations on the Eastern Front in so far as they had the character of security operations. Q. I see. A. Subsequently of course the security operations were then umbrellaed out to include the liquidation of Jews who were . P-258 considered to be fair game. Q. We will come to report No. 51 on 29th December, 26th its original date but 29th September 1942 further down the line. A. That is just one of a kind of course. Q. Well, it is 51. It is No. 51. So presumably there were another 50 before it? A. Yes, but the others were about things like the progress and development of the rubber plant and things likes that. Q. It may be so. It gives a figure, does it not? A. 316,000. Q. 363,000 plus as a separate category of Jews executed in three areas. A. I think you ought to look at the whole document rather than just take one line out and consider the document a bit and the initials that are marked on it. Q. Yes. MR JUSTICE GRAY: But the figure is right, is it not? That is the figure? A. This figure is typed on that document, my Lord, that is true, yes, and the document is typed in the special large faced typewriter which Himmler and Hitler used. Q. Himmler used that as well? A. Yes, on occasion he would use it to write speeches in, yes. MR RAMPTON: And that document is signed by Himmler, is it not? . P-259 A. One copy of it is that I have seen. Q. And it is marked for the Fuhrer, is it not? A. It is a report to the Fuhrer, yes. Q. Yes. Suppose ---- A. It would be far more useful if we could have the document before the court. Q. Unfortunately I do not have it here. So we will have to come back to it. We will come back to it in detail I am afraid. There is no way round it. A. I am very familiar with the document of course. I think his Lordship should see it. Q. This is why I can ask you about it, so am I, without your having it in front of you. Just suppose for the sake of argument that that document was shown Adolf Hitler? A. Yes. Q. Why would it have been shown to Adolf Hitler? A. I would ask the question the other way round. Q. No, please. A. I would say why is that figure buried on page 6 of that document? Q. It is not. It is on the first page. A. That is why we wrote it so I do not blunder into silly mistakes like that. I think I am right. You think you are right. Q. I am not trying to catch you. Under the heading Meldung and Fuhrer or whatever it is? . P-260 A. Yes, OK, why it is buried on that first page. Q. Have you got it there? A. We have got it. Ah! Q. No, I have not got my copy. We have only got one copy. We do not play tricks like that in this court, Mr Irving. If we do the judges get very cross with us. There is no point to it. A. What I shall ask you is, does it have the notation at the top: Fuhrer Fordalig? Q. I did not hear that. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Does it have "shown to the Fuhrer" written on the top? MR RAMPTON: Yes, it does. Well, it has a word which I believe means something like "presented" in handwriting. It is written by a man called Fife I think. A. I know Fife and I know Gruchmann, the two initials on it. It has the letters ERL which means taken care of which may or may not have been shown to Hitler. Q. Please, I do not want to come on to the question of fact whether the Fuhrer ever saw it. I would just like you to have a look at it. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can I be told where it is? MR RAMPTON: Yes, I am sorry. It is in H3 (i) at tab 3. It has a handwritten "6" on the bottom which is a modern numeral. Tab 3 page 6. It has a whole load of other numbers on it as well. . P-261 A. Written on the top it says "forgaleg" which means put before. But it does not say whom to. But it does say "put before". MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is cut off on my copy. MR RAMPTON: Yes, I know. I have had it read by a Germanist and it does say that. A. The initial at the top is Fife and the initial below it is Gruchmann, GR. MR JUSTICE GRAY: So the manuscript is "forgaleg", is it? A. Yes. Q. Do you accept that means since it is addressed to the Fuhrer that it was shown to him? A. On a high probability, yes, my Lord. I would have accepted that as being evidence that it had probably been shown to Hitler, but I would also draw attention to two or three details, if I may, since we are looking at the document now. MR RAMPTON: I would rather we left it but you can if you want. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I personally think I would leave it. A. I do not want to upset Mr Rampton by drawing attention to inconsistencies. Q. You will have an opportunity later. A. I am not questioning the authenticity, my Lord, just aspects of it. Right. MR RAMPTON: I do not mind at all, Mr Irving, if that is what you would like to. . P-262 A. No, you have your own way. Q. I look at it, I see it describes itself, its subject matter ---- A. Now you are looking at details and I am not allowed to! MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think we will leave it to Mr Rampton. I think he can ask you more questions if he wants to. MR RAMPTON: If you have answers to my questions rather than speeches to make by all means give them, but I really do prefer to proceed my own way, if I am allowed. It concerns reports to the Fuhrer about the campaign against the partisans. Is that a roughly right translation? A. This is what I was about to point out, that the subject line is combatting partisan, partisan warfare. Q. It is report No. 51 and it concerns Souther Russia, the Ukraine and Bialystok area, does it not? A. Yes. Q. It is about the outcome of that campaign from 1st September until 1st December 1942? A. That is correct, yes. Q. The first group, the first category are called van Diecknann which are ---- A. It is their word for "partisans". Q. Well, not always, sometimes it is partisanan, is it not? A. They have various different words for the same thing. But Nazi jargon was to call partisan bandits. Q. Yes. There are some people killed under in fact four . P-263 headings, August, September, October and November. So it does not actually begin on 1st September; it begins earlier. The second category are partisan helpers and what are "vanda verdicta"? A. Partisan suspects. Q. Suspects, yes. In 2C it says: First of all, arrested, that is subcategory (a). Then it says subcategory (b), numbers executed, a total of 14,257. In subcategory (c) it says explicitly, does it not, "Jews executed"? A. Yes. Q. And the total there is 363,211? A. That is correct. Q. What would the Fuhrer think when he saw that. You tell us? You are the Hitler historian. A. I do not think that my imagined response on behalf of the Fuhrer is evidence in this case. MR JUSTICE GRAY: No. I think that is wrong, if I may say so. I thought you might say that, but you are an historian. It is your job to make sense of a document, if you can. I therefore think it is not only a proper question, it is quite a significant question. A. Well ---- Q. To be asked what you think this would have conveyed to Hitler, which is I think what Mr Rampton was asking.
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