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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day029.09

Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day029.09
Last-Modified: 2000/07/25

   Q.   You refused?
   A.   Yes.  Sorry.  So your BNP file is rather thin, I am afraid.
   Q.   Well, turn to page 8, will you.  You are in key West.
   A.   I am sorry, which tab was it again?
   Q.   The same tab, page 8, bottom of the page:  "12 midday,
        Kirk Lyons phoned".
   A.   Tab 8 you say?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No.  Page 8, tab 5.
   MR RAMPTON:  "12 midday.  Kirk Lyons phoned.  Going to London
        November 2nd to November 9th for BNP meeting".  Is that
        you or Kirk Lyons?
   A.   Mr Lyons, he is a lawyer.

.          P-75

   Q.   What is his connection with the BNP then?
   A.   I have no idea; he is an American lawyer.
   Q.   No idea?
   A.   No.
   Q.   How do you know he is an American lawyer?
   A.   Is it relevant?
   Q.   Yes.
   A.   You asked me what his connection with the BNP is and the
        answer is I do not know.
   Q.   I am mildly interested in your associates.  Mr Irving.  I
        am much more interested in you personally, of course?
   A.   Speaking of my first lawyer, who was Michael Rubenstein
        who was my lawyer for 25 years or 20 years and may be
        familiar to this court.  I am quite happy to go through
        all the lawyers I have employed in my life.
   Q.   Many of my best friends are Jews too, Mr Irving.  I want
        to go back now, if I may, some 50 years or so.
   A.   So the BNP file was rather slim.  Can we agree on that?
   Q.   That is your comment, Mr Irving.  You have given one
        dishonest answer already in relation even to so slim a
        file as the BNP, which is that you it did not go to the
        BNP me in Leeds, and you told us in answer to our
        question, answer 45, "I have no connection with the
        British National Party nor have I been following its
        progress, nor do I have any knowledge of its official aims
        or policies".

.          P-76

   A.   I think that is a very reasonable and fair answer.  It
        turns out that I attended one semi-BNP function 23 years
        ago or 17 years ago or something like.
   Q.   1990, Mr Irving.
   A.   Ten years ago.
   Q.   Then you said: "From memory I have never spoken at a BNP meeting".
   A.   If you want to hang your hat on that then you are at liberty.
   Q.   No, I have a whole row of pegs for my hat, thank you, Mr Irving.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:   Mr Irving, what is puzzling me a little bit
        is why you troubled on the 26th October refer to the fact
        that Mr Lyons was going to London for the BNP meeting?
   A.   Mr Lyons is an acquaintance of mine and he told me he was
        going to go London, that is all.  He probably wanted to
        know if I was going to be in London at that time and he
        could come and drop in on me, but that is all.  I mean, my
        Lord, I can be quite plain and say had I attended the BNP
        meeting your Lordship will be familiar with the fact that
        they have had my entire diaries and they would have
        dredged that little morsel out of the diaries and dangled
        it before this court.  It is dishonest of them to have
        suggested any different.  In view of the fact they have
        had 20 million words of diaries and these are the only
        references to the BNP, that is a minuscule, almost

.          P-77

        frantic, attempt to associate me with them.
   MR RAMPTON:  Describe the BNP?  You seem to have some knowledge
        of them which I am afraid I do not have, but you tell me
        who they are, the BNP, while I search for a document?
        Hopeless right-wing, is that right, going nowhere?  What
        did you mean by that, hopeless right-wing going nowhere?
   A.   Their attempt to establish a right-wing alternative party
        in this country which is, as I understand from newspaper
        accounts, riven by internal dissension, by poor quality,
        officers.  I do not know.  I do not follow them develop.
   Q.   Who is Mr Anthony Hancock who in Munich describes himself
        as Mr Michael Carter?
   A.   Are you asking if he has any association with the BNP?
        I do not know.
   Q.   No.  I am asking you who he is, what his political stance is?
   A.   I think he is a right-winger.
   Q.   What do you mean by a right-winger, free market?
   A.   Somebody who is to the right-wing of me, shall I say.  If
        I describe him as being right-wing, then he is right-wing.
   Q.   So he would like black people to be sent back to wherever
        their ancestors came from, that kind of thing, is it?
   A.   I imagine so, yes, but I have not had learned political
        discussions with him, so perhaps I should not give that answer.
   Q.   I am sorry, my Lord, there has been a hitch in the

.          P-78

        administration, I am afraid.  Mr Irving, do you remember
        the question arose, first of all, in Professor Evans'
        report of a letter written to his wife probably sometime
        in 1942 of a German officer called Schaultz du Bois?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Do you remember telling this court some days or weeks ago
        that you were not aware of the contents of that letter?
   A.   I cannot remember what I told the court, but I can tell
        you now what my position is.
   Q.   Please do.
   A.   At the time I was researching the background of the Bruns
        Report, checking on the names in the report, finding out
        who was who, I read the book by Professor Gerald Fleming,
        the relevant parts of that book, and Professor Gerald
        Fleming had done research into the same shootings at Riga,
        and he had managed to obtain a copy of the letter which
        Schaultz de Bois had written in 1942, and I read the lines
        in the Fleming book relating to that letter.  In other
        words, I have not read the actual letter but I know the letter exists.
   Q.   Yes, indeed you do.  You were I think asked by his
        Lordship, this is day 22, which is 17th February 2000,
        page 103, his Lordship asked you this at line 23:
                  "Is it your case, Mr Irving, because you must
        put it", because you were cross-examining Professor Evans,
        Mr Irving, "because you must put it clearly and

.          P-79

        straightforwardly, that you were unaware of what
        Mr Schaultz de Bois said in this letter?"  Mr Irving:
        "Yes, and your Lordship will have heard from the
        cross-examination over the previous ten minutes that I do
        not attach very great importance to the remarks by
        Canaris."  We can ignore most of that sentence, except the
        "yes", Mr Irving.  It was not a straightforward answer,
        was it?
   A.   Ah!
   Q.   You know very well what was in the Schaultz de Bois
        letter, did you not?
   A.   I am sure his Lordship is familiar with the problem with
        transcripts in court, that when a witness is having
        something read it him and there is a pause and the witness
        says "yes" as though to say, "Yes, I hear what you are
        saying", right?  This should not be taken as being, yes,
        I agree with what you are saying, but, yes, I hear what
        you are saying.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I hope we are not going to treat all your
        answers in that light.
   A.   I think your Lordship is capable of seeing the difference.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I certainly see the difference.
   A.   What I would call a substantive yes rather than a nod.
        This is mine.  Can I have it back now, please?
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes, exactly.  Indeed so.
   A.   This is the Gerald Fleming book in my hand.

.          P-80

   Q.   It is indeed.  The reason why that letter comes into the
        case, Mr Irving, as I expect you will remember, is that it
        contains an account of what happened when the message got
        back to Hitler -- you will find it on page 98, will you
        not, it is in German, but you will recognize the passage.
        It is just above a red marking by you, is it not?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Read out what it was reported to Schaultz de Bois that
        Hitler had said after he learned of the Riga shootings.
        It is just before your red marking.
   A.   I have to find it first.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Schaultz de Bois went it Canaris to get him
        to intercede with Hitler?
   MR RAMPTON:  That is right.  He wrote a letter to his wife
        apparently reporting what Hitler's reaction had been.
   A.   I am not deliberately delaying anything.  I am just trying
        to find the actual passage.
   Q.   I think it is on page 98.
   A.   OK I am sorry.  Yes, here we have it.  This man, who went
        in and out, he is talking about Canaris obviously.
   Q.   Yes, obviously.
   A.   This man, who went in and out at the Fuhrer's, was to tell
        the Fuhrer the consequences and the atrocities of these
        methods once more in a most penetrating manner.  No, he is
        said to have done this whereupon the latter, Hitler, is
        said to have said, and then comes the quotation: "Mein

.          P-81

        Herr, you want to go soft, do you?  I have to do that
        because after me there will not be anybody else to do it".
   Q.   Right.  Now, that is some evidence, is it not -- I am not
        saying it is the strongest evidence in the world, of
        course not, Mr Irving -- that Hitler thought it his
        job -- Hitler, his job -- to abolish the Jews and kill them?
   A.   It is some evidence, yes.
   Q.   Yes.  Why have you never brought that to the attention of
        your readers?  You have known about it since 1982.
   A.   I have known about it since roughly the same time as
        I found the Bruns book, yes.
   Q.   Professor Fleming sent you a copy of his book, the German
        copy, which I think came out in 1982, did it not?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   If you look carefully at that copy, just flick through the
        pages, you may agree with me that you have in fact read
        the whole of it up to page 104.
   A.   No.  I think I set this out at the time I gave the book to
        you.  I obviously dipped into the first 17 or 18 pages.
        Let us see where the markings end.  I think 27 was where
        I stopped reading.
   Q.   See if you can find the next marking after 27.
   A.   Then I put it away.  Then, when I needed a source to look
        up details on the Bruns Report, I picked it up and looked
        specifically at the Bruns passages.  You will see the ink

.          P-82

        is a different colour.
   Q.   Sorry, I did not mean to interrupt.  Would you look at
        page 88?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   There is one of your markings there, is there not?
   A.   Yes, and I write "oy" in the margin.
   Q.   There is something said that you do not like, I suppose?
   A.   Yes.  It is what I would say to him.  If he had read this
        out to me, I would have said "oy".
   Q.   There is a slight diversion.  What is it about that
        passage you did not like?
   A.   I do not know.  Let us have a look.
   Q.   We have a photographic copy of the relevant part of this.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am following.
   A.   Oh yes.  On the basis of the liquidation order issued on
        November 10th and 11th to the newly appointed senior
        police chief and SS chief in the Baltic, who was Jeckeln,
        the order issued by Himmler and Hitler, I have underlined
        the words "Himmler and Hitler" and that is where I have
        written "oy" in the margin as though to say, "OK, Himmler,
        I agree but how are you just sliding in the words 'and
        Hitler' as well"?
   Q.   He no doubt has reached the position in 1982, which you
        have now reached in this court for the first time, that
        Hitler authorized the shootings in the East.
   A.   Are you asking me a question?

.          P-83

   Q.   Yes, I am.  That is right, is it not?
   A.   Let me just explain why I have written "oy" then next to
        it because that may be part of the answer.  This is a book
        which has been written for the purpose of disproving me,
        as he admits himself, and this is admitted in the reviews,
        and this is the evidence on which he relies in disproving
        me, to prove that it is the Fuhrer's wish.  In fact the
        subtitle of this book is, "It is the Fuhrer's Wish", and
        it is that actual quotation, the so-called liquidation
        order, "tell Lohse it is my order and it is also the
        Fuhrer's wish".  I have written in the margin, saying "oy,
        is that as good as it gets?", the same as I have sometimes
        said to you, Mr Rampton.
   Q.   Yes, Mr Irving.
   A.   One had expected better, same as his Lordship has
        sometimes said to me, in fact.
   Q.   Turn back two pages, will you, from that marking to page 86?
   A.   I did notice on the opposite page they are relying on the
        Wetzel letter, which of course the Eichmann manuscript now
        challenges as being a forgery.
   Q.   That matters not to me in the least, Mr Irving.
   A.   Yes.

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