Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day029.06 Last-Modified: 2000/07/25 Q. Yes, of course, it is like the Women's Institute! Drop down to the bottom of the page: "Mr Irving's lecture was received enthusiastically by the audience and he was able to autograph and sell a substantial number of his own books during the meeting. The Cleveland unit's next public activity will be a white power rock concert on New Year's Eve"? A. "White power rock concert". Q. Yes. Now please turn over the page to page 4. A. Are you going to ask a question about that? Have I ever seen that before? The answer is no. . P-46 Q. No, this is just part of the narrative, Mr Irving. My question may sometimes come after several documents. You have to be patient. A. Well, sometimes I will give an immediate response. Q. Page 4, your diary, October 1st 1995: "Pittsburg, Pennsylvania to Cleveland, Ohio. Rose at 7.30 a.m.. Packed. Left for Cleveland around 3 p.m. Arrived at meeting place 6.00 p.m. Fine meeting, around 150 people, many ethnic Germans. Gate of $500 was agreed plus œ1700 book sales. What a relief. Sat up to 2 a.m. with my hosts after supper chatting". October 2nd: "Rose 9.50 a.m. breakfast with my hosts, plural, lawyer etc." Do you still maintain that you do not know who these people were? A. Yes. The host was Mark Wavra who is a well-known Cleveland lawyer who had nothing to do with the Alliance. Is that the question you are asking? Q. They were your hosts for this meeting, Mr Irving. A. The hosts are the people I am actually staying with. If you saw the previous letter, the first letter, that they have arranged for me to be accommodated in this lawyer's home, I have nothing against lawyers. Q. Is that Mark Wavra the -- I can never remember what "IHR" stands for and I do not much care. IHR is historian? A. Sorry, it is not. It is Wavra, W-A-V-R-A. Q. Yes, it is mishearing? . P-47 A. I point out, of course, there is not the slightest reference either in that diary entry or in any other diary entry to the NA or the National Alliance or to any other body which confirms what I said about having had no knowledge of them. Q. Well, I asked you to be patient. You have jumped in as you so often do ---- A. Yes. Q. ---- and I turn now, please, to page 5? A. Page? Q. 5, your diary again? A. Yes. Q. October 6th 1995, same year? A. Oh, yes. Q. Five days later: "Savanna, Georgia to Tampa, Florida. 7.45 a.m. radio show from Tampa. Did a 20 minute interview and they announced the location. Not amused by that. Drove all day to Tampa, phoned Key West, etc. etc. etc. Arrived at the Hotel Best Western at 4.00 p.m. Sinister gent with pony tail was the organizer. Turned out the meeting here is also organized by the National Alliance and National Vanguard Bookshop. Well attended". Now, Mr Irving, do you want to revise the answers you have just been giving me? A. It just goes to show how bad my memory is, yes, but it always illustrates, does it not, the fact that I am . P-48 learning as I go along, and that I had not the slightest notion who these people are. Would that be a proper interpretation to put on that entry? Q. No, Mr Irving, it would not. Turn now to the meeting here, Tampa, is also organized by the ---- A. The same entry. Q. --- National Alliance. In other words, you knew that both the meetings were organized by the National Alliance? A. Obviously, I had subsequently learned that the previous one was also organized by this body which I had never heard of. Q. We have seen that speech in Tampa in full in this court some weeks ago. On this occasion the host, let me call him this, whose name I am afraid I do not know, but I suppose it might have been this chap Gliber, I do not know, although he seems to be in Cleveland and not Tampa, he opened the proceedings with you on the platform and the banner nearby: "Ladies and gentlemen, on behalf of the National Alliance and National Vanguard Books, I would like to proudly welcome Mr David Irving." Do you want to revise your evidence, Mr Irving? A. Well, obviously he put in a plug, what on TV would be called a plug for his own particular passion. Q. "On behalf of the National Alliance and National Vanguard Books", remember your diary entry ---- A. Yes. . P-49 Q. --- organized by the National Alliance and National Vanguard Bookshop, "On behalf of the National Alliance and National Vanguard Books, I would like proudly", "I would like to proudly", he is an American, "I would like to proudly welcome Mr David Irving"? A. Yes. Q. Well, Mr Irving. A. Well, as I say, he has taken the advantage that he is making the opening speech to put in a plug for his own friends. That is all I can say, and it does not contrast with what I said in paragraph 25, that I have been invited by an individual and that the audience is almost entirely made up from my own list and that is why he is putting in his plug and why he is welcoming the outsiders. Q. "I have no association with a body known to the Defendants as the National Alliance as such or whatsoever. I do not agree that I have spoken at any National Alliance meetings". Two statements which are both completely false, am I right? A. No. I stand entirely with what I said in paragraph 25, and it is quite evident from my diary entries that I am learning as I literally drive around the United States that I speak at these functions and afterwards I have found out, "Oh, that one was organized by this person too or by that body too", and I find out subsequently. Once again, I have to say that I have not the faintest notion . P-50 who they are or who they were. I spoke in the United States sometimes 100 times in one year, always to different bodies, and I am not going to make any particular note of which these bodies or these functions or universities or groups or whatever. Q. I take leave, if I may, Mr Irving to inform you that I reject every word of that answer. I will not take it any further in that direction, but I do ask you, have you familiarised yourself with the National Alliance literature? A. No, I am not the least bit interested in it. Q. I thought you said you had looked at it since this case began? A. I fluttered through the things that were put into your bundles. That is when I have been mystified as to the relevance of them, frankly, catalogues of books and things. I thought, what on earth has that got to do with me? Q. Because this poisonous material is on sale at the meetings which you have allowed yourself to be exploited at, if I may put it like that, held and organized with your knowledge by the National Alliance? A. I understand that Karl Marx's "Das Kapital" and Adolf Hitler's "Mein Kampf" is on sale at Harrods, but that does not mean to say that people who go and shop in the crockery department are in some way poisoned, does it, or . P-51 in some way associated with those poisonous gentlemen? MR RAMPTON: My Lord, I foresee there is not going to be much point in my asking Mr Irving to look at the material at this stage. However, in the light of this passage in the evidence, I will invite your Lordship to look at it along down the line because it will form part of my closing submissions. MR IRVING: Perhaps you should put them to me seriatim if you intend that his Lordship rely on them and I can say point by point have I seen it before, answer no. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Not seriatim, but what I think would be helpful and I think would be right, if I may say so, would be for you to put maybe a couple of them by way of representative samples. MR RAMPTON: I will simply put their ideology. One need not go any further than that. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Where, as a matter of record, would I find National Alliance? MR RAMPTON: You would find the literature behind Rebecca Gutman's statement which is in file ---- A. That is right. That is where I saw it too. Q. --- C1, tab 2. A. That is where I saw it for the first time and, frankly, I thought what on earth has it got to do with me, which is precisely why these witnesses should have been called so they could have been cross-examined, in my view. . P-52 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are now going to have the opportunity ---- A. It is not quite the same thing. Q. --- to comment on the literature. A. It is not quite the same thing, though, is it? MR RAMPTON: My Lord, the document I wish to refer to is the second document of the appendix to Rebecca Gutman's statement. The front page says: "What is the National Alliance?" Ideology and programme of the National Alliance. Copyright 1993". MR JUSTICE GRAY: Has Mr Irving got a copy of this? MR RAMPTON: I am hoping he will be given one. A. Can I draw your attention to page 1 which is one of the leaflets for one of the meetings that is relied on, apparently, and there is not any reference whatsoever to the National Alliance. That is the Tampa function, is it not? MR RAMPTON: True, but that was, as you acknowledge in your diary, a National Alliance event? A. I say it subsequently turned out that the organizer was National Alliance. Q. No, this is 1998, Mr Irving, not 1995. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do I already have this file that has just been handed in? MR RAMPTON: I am afraid mine is anonymous. You have got your own C1 bundle, my Lord, I think. . P-53 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It seems to be differently made up. A. Can we, first of all, ask what paragraph of Gutman's report relies on this document so we can fit it into the constellation of evidence, so to speak? MR RAMPTON: 14, I think, I am told. This is another National Alliance meeting at which you spoke, you see, Mr Irving, in 1998. It might be worth looking at some of this. Does your Lordship have it there? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I am just puzzled. I do not think I have ever had this file. I may be wrong about that, anyway. MR RAMPTON: My Lord, may I first draw attention to parts of the Rebecca Gutman's statement? This is the Civil Evidence Act evidence, paragraph 10 on the fifth page, the eligibility requirements of the National Alliance are: "Any White person (a non-Jewish person of wholly European ancestry) of good character and at least 18 years of age who accepts as his own the goals of the National Alliance and who is willing to support the programme described herein". It continues: "No homosexual or bisexual person ... no person with a non-White spouse or a non-White dependant ... may be a member". Notice, Mr Irving, the "white" wherever it appears has a capital W. Now paragraph 14 ---- A. Can I draw your attention to paragraph 3 first? Q. By all means. . P-54 A. The flyer made no mention of the National Alliance. She points out that the function had no National Alliance presence apart from these leaflets that were, apparently, offered on some table somewhere else in the building. Q. But for somebody, Mr Irving, like you who already knew that it was the National Alliance who was organizing the meeting, that really does not matter, does it? A. Are you going to lead evidence that I knew in advance it was the National Alliance organizing the meeting? Q. I am suggesting to you it must have been perfectly obvious. A. That is something different, is it not? Q. This is an old friendship, Mr Irving. A. Is this the consensus of opinion again or is it something for which you have evidence? Q. Mr Irving, please. You have seen the evidence in your own diary. You know the National Alliance, do you not? A. Will you take me to the evidence in the diary? MR JUSTICE GRAY: We have just been through it, Mr Irving. I do not think we need to go through it again. A. This is a different meeting, my Lord. MR RAMPTON: Yes, different meetings, three years later? A. It is conflating different meetings, if I can use that word. If he relies on this document, then, of course, we have to look at the actual meeting where the witness obtained this document which was, apparently, not a . P-55 National Alliance meeting. Q. We will just have a look at paragraph 14, if we may? "Inside the room there was a table set up with Mr Irving's books and copies of this latest newsletter. Across the room there was" ---- A. "Across the room". Q. What? A. "Across the room", in other words, nowhere near me. Q. How big was the room, Mr Irving? A. About twice as big as this.
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