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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day028.08


Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day028.08
Last-Modified: 2000/07/25

   MR RAMPTON:  No, we cannot, but we may as well if we throw it
        away with some ease because, in Mr Irving's diary for
        October 3rd 1989 when he was in West Berlin, he writes
        this:  "At 11 am, a well attended press conference at the
        Kampinski (which I believe is some kind of hotel), around
        20 writers, six or seven genuine journalists told them
        (I will read it but I do not know what it means): Zeit:

.          P-69



        11 Uhr heute Morgen wird zuruckgeschossen, and closed with
        my new slogan Wahrheit macht Frei.  The lefty journalists
        got the allusions".
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, thank you.  Mr Irving, you are in person
        and I appreciate the difficulties and you, again, have
        been confronted with an extremely long and detailed
        report, but, in the end, I think it is important to
        remember ----
   MR IRVING:  It is the names.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY: ---  what it is that this witness is telling
        me that really matters.  He has identified a number of
        individuals who he says are right-wing extremist with whom
        he says you have close associations or associations
        anyway.  That is what I am going to get from this witness,
        if I get anything, and----
   MR IRVING:   We will come to them.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  ---  we are darting around looking at the odd
        footnote here and there and, as I have said so many times
        before, it is really the big picture that you must tackle,
        not whether particular footnotes are accurate or not.  So
        can you please bear that in mind because I just do not
        think that we are making progress at all.
   MR IRVING:  It is just that I can feel the sharks over there.
        They will leap on anything that I have not traversed.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Try to ignore them and concentrate on asking
        the questions which I want to hear the answers to.

.          P-70



   MR IRVING:  In late 1989, Dr Funke, I conducted a tour of
        Austria, did I not?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Did I arrange the tour or was it arranged by somebody else?
   A.   It was arranged by Althans and Philipp and maybe some
        others, but these both ----
   Q.   These are two of the people on the list, are they not,
        Althans and Philipp?  Can I ask you to look at document 14
        in the little bundle that I gave you this morning?
   A.   It is too packed here, excuse me.
   Q.   There is no need to read it out, just read it to yourself quickly.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   And then I will ask you two questions on it.  (Pause for
        reading.)  "I am writing to the head of the security
        police in Korinthier which is a province of Austria", is
        that right?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   "In anticipation of the tour and I am asking him to
        effectively give me guidelines so that I can stay within
        the law"?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Is this a responsible thing to do?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Does it indicate any extremist intentions on my part or on

.          P-71



        the part of the organisers?
   A.   The letter alludes to your topics.  I quote: [German -
        document not provided].
   Q.   Yes.  Do you have any comments on that?
   A.   Maybe I should translate it or maybe you can translate it
        for me?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I would not, Professor Funke, if I were you,
        spend very long on it.  You have been asked whether you
        regard that as a responsible letter?
   A.   No.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  And it is ----
   A.   No, I do not.
   Q.   All right, you do not.
   A.   I do not because of that sentence.
   MR IRVING:  It is considered an irresponsible letter?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   I do not think it is going to be productive, my Lord, to
        ask questions on this, unless your Lordship wishes to?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do not really.  I did try to give you a
        steer a moment ago to what I think is helpful.
   MR IRVING:  Yes, exactly.  That is precisely how I am moving on
        not because I do not want to ask further questions.  You
        referred in paragraph 5.1.11, and this very briefly, to a
        visit which I made to a man called Walter Storff who is an
        old Nazi SS friend of someone, right?
   A.   Yes.

.          P-72



   Q.   Do you accept that if you write books about Nazis, you
        have to visit them sometimes?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   In 5.1.12, we come to Mr Christopherson who is one of the
        people on the list.  Is there correspondence between me
        and Mr Christopherson that you have read?
   A.   To a degree.
   Q.   Did I ever write back to him approving of the book that he
        sent me?
   A.   So far as I recall, no.
   Q.   No.  In 5.1.13, there is reference to a magazine that he
        published called Bauenschaft.  Have you seen in all the
        papers, or my diary, or the files of correspondences which
        have been made available to you any indication that
        I ordered it, or read it, or acknowledged it or thanked
        him for it?
   A.   I cannot recall -- I have to go through these letters to
        be sure that you did not.
   Q.   Well, let me phrase it another way.  Can you recall having
        seen any such letters indicating that I ----
   A.   There were, there were a lot of quests of Christopherson
        to come to his meetings and you sometimes said no, and
        sometimes you attended like the Hagenau meeting, in so far
        as it is also prepared by Christopherson.  So this is what
        I recall.
   Q.   To give his Lordship an indication of the intensity, to

.          P-73



        use that word, my relations with Mr Christopherson, how
        many meetings, in your opinion, did Christopherson
        organise that I spoke at?
   A.   Only a few.
   Q.   One?
   A.   Only a few.
   Q.   Can you think of any more apart from Hagenau?
   A.   I have to look at the Christopherson file for a minute.
   MR RAMPTON:  Tab 15, my Lord.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I am looking at it.
                  (Pause for reading).
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do not think there are any other meetings
        that are referred to.
   MR RAMPTON:  There is possibly one between 12th and 17th
        September, actually.
   A.   September of what year?
   MR RAMPTON:  1989, sorry.  We do not have the recording in the
        diary of what took place.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I see what you mean.
   MR RAMPTON:  Die Bauenschaft's annual meeting.
   A.   OK.
   MR IRVING:  Moving on from Mr Christopherson, in 5.3.8, is
        Dieter Munier one of the names on the list?  I am not
        sure.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   A publisher Arndt Verlag.  Is he a publisher?

.          P-74



   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Has he published books of mine?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Is one of the books a history of the Vorschungsamt, the
        German intelligence code-breaking organisation?
   A.   That may be, I am not aware, but you published it with the
        Arndt publisher.
   Q.   With Arndt Verlag, yes.  Are you aware that this book was
        highly praised by Professor Watt in the witness box where
        you are now sitting?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do not think he is on the list.
   MR IRVING:  I beg your pardon?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  He is not on the list.
   MR IRVING:   He is not on the list.  Very well, in that case,
        let us move on.  In paragraph 5.3.9, and to this I do
        attach importance, my Lord, the indented passage on page
        62, now the question is, if you read the indented passage,
        Christian Worch is complaining about what I put into my
        speeches.
   A.   Right.
   Q.   Is he complaining because I have rubbed the noses of these
        right-wing audiences in the atrocities committed by the SS?
   A.   To a degree.
   Q.   To a degree.  I have read out to you the entire Bruns
        Report.  Is that evident from that letter?

.          P-75



   A.   It seems to.
   Q.   Do you think that was only occasion that I did this, or
        did I make a habit of doing that to every single
        right-wing audience I spoke to?
   A.   It seems that you not only did it in Hagenau, so far as
        I recall.
   Q.   There were frequent protests from these right-wingers,
        these extremists, of the fact I rubbed their noses in the
        crimes committed by the Nazis and the SS, and that this is
        documented in a way that we do not have to rely on a
        consensus of opinion, or the opinion of the social
        sciences.  We have documents showing that I rubbed their
        noses in these crimes.
   A.   Yes, especially from Christopherson, I may add.
        Christopherson said not to do this, do not refer.
   Q.   Yes, and did I carry on doing it?
   A.   This is right.
   Q.   In paragraph 5.3.13, this is a meeting at which
        I addressed in Hamburg and then, I am sorry, paragraph
        5.3.12.  You are referring to a meeting that I addressed
        in Hamburg and then, in 5.3.13, you purport to put in what
        I said at that meeting.  Is that transcript, in fact, from
        Hamburg or is it from another meeting?
   A.   Wait a minute.  I think I did a mistake but I have to look
        at it more precisely.
   MR RAMPTON:  I think, in fact, it is the Moers meeting.  It has

.          P-76



        somehow been transposed.
   A.   Yes, I have to admit that ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It is two months later, is it not?
   MR RAMPTON: Yes, it is two months later, in fact.
   A.   By the way, the Moers meeting was not in your diary.  It
        was stated sometime, it was on the 5th, but so far
        I reconstructed it was at the 9th March.
   MR RAMPTON:  It was the ninth Moers of ----
   A.   Yes, of 9th March.
   MR RAMPTON: ---  5.3.19.  That is the one meeting of which we
        do have a full transcript.
   A.   I referred to that, your Lordship, at the beginning of my
        three remarks today in the morning.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.
   MR IRVING:  You made references on these pages to the NL.  That
        is the Nationale Liste, is that right?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Was that banned at that time?
   A.   No.
   Q.   In 5.3.14 - I am going to come back to the Hamburg meeting
        in a second - you had me saying there:  "We are always
        running the danger that we will be arrested..."  This is
        Moers meeting from the transcript, is it not?
   A.   I am lost.
   Q.   5.3.14?
   A.   5.3.14?

.          P-77



   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, it is.
   A.   Yes.
   MR IRVING:  It all sounds rather conspiratorial, me telling an
        audience there that we are running the danger, that we are
        going to be arrested.  Was the situation, at that time in
        Germany, really dangerous for dissident historians, that
        there was danger of being arrested because of what you said?
   A.   It is in early 1990, right?  Yes.
   Q.   Are people still serving prison sentences in Germany today
        for things they said in 1990, to your knowledge, Gunther Deckert?
   A.   Not for dissenting historians, but for hardcore denialists
        sometimes.
   Q.   Yes, the really wicked ones?  Are you aware that the
        German government applied for my extradition last year
        because of something I said in September 1990?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, Mr Irving, I think we did at an earlier
        stage agree that what governments do or do not do is
        really not going to be helpful.
   MR IRVING:  I am proud to live in England and not in Germany,
        my Lord.  5.3.15.
   A.   I would like to comment on this.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No.
   MR IRVING:  This is an important one.  5.3.15, when you state
        that I arrived with Kuhnen, which is obviously an

.          P-78



        important point, the journalist Michael Schmidt, who is
        one of your favourite sources, says that Irving arrived
        with Michael Kuhnen at this meeting in Hamburg.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   You had before you my diary?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Did you check with the diary to see if there is any
        indication that I arrived with Michael Kuhnen?
   A.   No.  No, of course not.  That is why I am raising this
        point.
   Q.   Well, either it is worth checking if something is likely
        or not.  Can I take you to pages 13 and 14 of the bundle,
        please, I am sorry page 13.
   A.   Of the bundle?
   Q.   Yes.
   A.   Yes.

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