Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day027.04 Last-Modified: 2000/07/25 Q. Has Worch spoken on the same occasions? A. It is several times the case. For example, at the second so-called Leuchter Congress at the 23rd March '91 and again at the 9th November '91, and so far, yes, these are . P-27 occasions. Q. Yes. A. They planned to invite Mr Irving to the Wansiedel meeting. This is very important for this scene. The Wansiedel meetings every year in August, remembers the death of the hero in that circle, Rudolf Hess. Mr Irving did not come to the Wansiedel meeting because he did not want, as the diary shows, to take sides openly with Michael Kuhnen, but, as we see, he did with the other person. This is Christian Worch. MR IRVING: Would the witness just explain what he means by taking sides with Michael Kuhnen? A. So far I recall your diary, but you know it better. MR IRVING: May I put it to the witness that in fact I made it quite plain I would not attend if Kuhnen was going to be there. A. Right. Taking sides. But, you know, if I may add -- no, I should not. I see. Go on. MR RAMPTON: Who is Rudiger Hess? A. He is one of the activists in the scene and the son of Rudolf Hess. Q. Can you turn to the entry in the summary for 22nd April 1990 please? A. Yes. Q. Mr Irving's diary records that he had breakfast on the morning after the Wahrheitnachtfrei in Munich with . P-28 Staglich, Hancock and the Worches. Who is Wilhelm Staglich? A. Wilhem Staglich is a former judge, and is very active in these revisionists circles, quite a while, a very old man. I think he died in the middle of the 90s. Q. Does revisionism in that sense include any element of Holocaust denial? A. It is often the case, and with him it is. Q. With him it is? I am going to ask you some other names now. I am going to go backwards through this summary that you have produced. Who is Udo Walendy? A. I think he is one of the most outspoken persons in the Holocaust denial network and activities. He did and he is doing a magazine. I have some copies of that in my hotel, so I can show it if it is necessary. He presented to the German audience the Arthur Butz Holocaust denial attempt. Q. "Hoax of the 20th century"? A. Right, in the 70s. I am not quite sure, the sources say that he attended Hagenau, this revisionist meeting in November 89. Q. We are going to have a look at that. A. So he is the most, if I may say so, outspoken and differentiated in trying to make this cause. Q. Do you know whether Mr Irving has been associated with Staglich or Walendy? A. Yes, they met in their circles of course, in their . P-29 revisionists meetings. MR JUSTICE GRAY: How do you know that? A. By the sources, with respect to this both persons, but I have to look them up because it is such a bunch of people who are interacting, interconnecting, meeting networking and so forth. So forgive me that I have to look it up. MR RAMPTON: Well we will see Staglich in some of the films and perhaps Walendy, and we can see already that Mr Irving has had breakfast with Wilhelm Staglich on 22nd April 1990. We get that from his own diary, do we not? A. Yes. MR IRVING: That is the only entry in the diary which mentions it, is it not? A. He was there around, you know. He was there often around. This is the entry mentioning, but, as you know, on the day before he was there too, and you too. MR IRVING: In the audience. A. In the audience, but you know the audience, and you know Mr Staglich, I think. MR RAMPTON: What about somebody called Michael Swierczek? A. Maybe I should spell it for the court? Q. No? MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think it might be helpful because sometimes the transcriber cannot really cross refer. That is the problem? . P-30 A. Go ahead. MR RAMPTON: S W I E R C Z E K. Yes? Good. Who is he? A. He belongs to this first mentioned Kuhnen crew, or Gesinnungsgemeinschaft, and he organized an own little tiny group more in the south to make this neo-Nazi cause along the lines of Michael Kuhnen, the National Offensive NO, and Swierczek invited David Irving, so far I recall, in '91. The success of these events were modest. Q. Thank you. MR IRVING: Did you say events or event? A. There were two invitations, So far as the diaries and your sources says, and they were both, if I recall, in the effect of selling books and presenting to a bigger audience. MR RAMPTON: I have not asked about the policies and ideologies individually of each of these individuals. You said there is an element of Holocaust denial in many of them, of the heirs of Michael Kuhnen, you said there was anti- Semitism xenophobia. Yes? A. Yes, very much so. Q. Is this true of somebody like Swierczek? A. Yes. In this whole neo-Nazi camp they are only little differentiations because they have to stick to their card organizations. Q. Let me ask you a general question then. Do any of these neo-Nazi individuals, or groups of individuals, have a . P-31 policy which is Nazi, but not anti-Semitic and anti-foreigner? A. I have to be very modest in answering this. I did not see any hint of this Kuhnen crew, the Gesinnungsgemeinschaft, that they distanced from that kind of rhetoric, agitation, ideology, world view. No, not any person of this I mentioned, not any person in any situation, so far I got the datas, so it is a clear cut thing. They are joining a kind of same world view. Q. I cannot remember whether we have dealt with Karl Philipp or not? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, we have. MR RAMPTON: Good. I will pass backwards over him. Do you know who Ditlieb Felderer is? A. Just a bit. He is a Swedish joiner of this revisionist camp, and also politically very active. Q. I think we are going to see him in one or other of these tapes, are we not? What about somebody called Thomas Dienel? A. Thomas Dienel is one of the outspoken neo-Nazis in East Germany, so he is one of the East Germans who took this cause after '89. He changed his views and parties, but he was one of the most crude or crudest anti-Semites. Q. Is it true that in July 1992 a Jewish leader called Heinz Galinski died? A. Yes. . P-32 Q. And what was the reaction of Dienel and his friends to that? A. They made bad, very cynical, jokes on that. MR IRVING: My Lord, I think it should be properly stated whether any allegation is made that I have ever met this Mr Dienel, who is obviously an extremely unsavoury character. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am trying to keep a track of the extent to which ---- MR RAMPTON: That is always going to be my next question. I just want to get a picture of this nice Mr Dienel first. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Before we paint a picture of him, he is not one of those who has a section in RWE one or two? MR RAMPTON: No, he does not. The reason I mentioned him is partly that he is mentioned in this biography section in the appendix, and one can read for oneself. A. Yes. I may just allude to Thomas Dienel, he is of some importance, if I may say so, your Lordship. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can you start though, by explaining, if may say so, Mr Rampton, what the connection with Mr Irving is. MR IRVING: Thank you. A. Yes, of course. The connection is very simple and maybe very short. He was the inviter, together with Christian Worch, of the 9th November Halle meeting. MR IRVING: Never heard of him in my life before. . P-33 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You will get your chance, Mr Irving. We must not make this too conversational. A. You heard him. He spoke before you spoke. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Professor, can we keep some sort of form to this? We have a system here. It is Mr Rampton questioning at the moment, so do not start conversations with Mr Irving. A. Excuse me. Maybe I should add something to Thomas Dienel? Excuse me. I rely on your questions. MR IRVING: I am sorry, I interrupted. Perhaps we ought to carry on. MR RAMPTON: We can read on page 142 of the appendix what sort of a man Thomas Dienel is on your account. Is he one of those that we shall see on the film of the rally at Halle? A. Yes, I alluded to that just before. He was the one of the organisers of the Halle rally, together with Christian Worch. It was a joint action and at that time, to my best knowledge, he was a member of the NPD, the National Democratic Party of Germany, so they did a joint effort, the neo-Nazis and this ultra right-wing extremist NPD. But then Thomas Dienel changed and organized a new clear cut neo-Nazi group, the DNP. It is maybe not of such an interest, but the point is that he was one of them at that period of time, the most outspoken crude anti-Semites. He, after the death of the famous Jewish representative Heinz Galinski, by the way, survivor of Auschwitz, who in . P-34 a way never could escape the memory of Auschwitz, if I may say so. I knew him very well. An effort at that city where he stayed, Thomas Dienel, he took part in an action at the 20th July '92, following the death of this leader, Heinz Galinski, of the Jewish communities, pigs' heads were thrown to the garden of the Jewish community with labels that read "Every pig dies, you too Heinz". That means Heinz Galinski. In '92, Dienel was found saying unfortunately the younger generation has not yet killed any Jews. Q. What age of man is this Thomas Dienel? A. He is in the 40s, I think. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am still, if I may say so, unsure on what basis you are suggesting, Professor, that there is a connection between ---- A. I did not say connection. Q. Well, you said, I think, that Dienel, together with the Worches, was responsible for inviting Irving to speak at the Halle rally? A. Yes. Then I said you can call it connection. It is a connection for that given invitation and action. Q. But why do you say Dienel was involved in inviting Irving to speak? Where do you get that from? A. No. It is more precise. The demonstration in Halle, the Halle rally was organized and the invitation came from two persons, or two groups represented by these two persons. . P-35 This is Thomas Dienel, the then NPD speaker, it is very public, and on the other hand by Christian Worch. The diary shows in that sense, I realize the surprise of David Irving just a minute ago, that he was invited by Ursula Worch ---- Q. That is what I was getting at. A. -- To come to this rally. So it was a kind of conflation of invitations, and by this he was in the scene. You know that David Irving is a very good understander of German language. So he knew him by hearing him, by participating at that demonstration and at a very prominent level. That is what I am saying, not more, and I did not do anything more in the report. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much. MR IRVING: I am indebted to your Lordship for asking that question. MR RAMPTON: We go now to man called Gunter Deckert. Before I ask you about Gunter Deckert, do you know of any connection between Mr Irving and Herr Deckert? A. By his website. Q. How do you mean? That, to me, is a slightly Delphic explanation. A. They have a long interaction by communicating and referring to each other. He, Deckert, invited David Irving to speak in Weinheim at a given period of time, the early '90s, I think, in '90. So there was a clear cut . P-36 each other knowledge of what they have stood for and that they stand for.
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