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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day022.10


Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day022.10
Last-Modified: 2000/07/24

Q.So a statement made by Admiral Canaris to the disadvantage
of the Fuhrer should be viewed circumspectly, should it?
A.Well, no more circumspectly, I mean, than those of other
members of the resistance or any other source.  One takes
all these things on their own merits.  I do not think you
can simply discredit what members of the resistance said
about Hitler simply because they were critical of him.
Q.Not necessarily untrue but ----

.  P-85



A.Though you would like to discredit everything that is
critical that is said about Hitler.
Q.In other words, a statement made by Canaris would not
necessarily be untrue ----
A.No.
Q.--- but you might want to have a document to back it up,
another document, a second source?
A.Yes, I think you have to make it clear that Canaris is
who
he is.
Q.At the top of the following page, of course, you quote
then what information came back from Canaris.
A.Yes.
Q."This man", Canaris, "who has constant access to the
Fuhrer is said to have described the consequences and
the
terrible nature of these methods, namely the killings,
to
the F", Hitler, "once more compellingly" ----
A.Yes.
Q.--- "whereupon he", Hitler, "is said to have said,
'You
want to show weakness, do you, Mein Herr, I have to do
that for after me there will not be another one to do
it".
A.Yes.
Q.In other words, "I had to do the killings".
A.Yes.
Q.And this is Canaris' statement about what Hitler's
response to him was?
A.Yes.

.  P-86



Q.And is the fact that the channel of information that
it
comes through Admiral Canaris not sufficient to make
one
want possibly to quote that reference, but add a
caveat at
the end and say,  "Well, of course, Admiral Canaris
may
have been reporting something genuinely, but it has to
be
borne in mind that he was later hanged as a member of
the
anti-Hitler resistance"?
A.Well, I do not -- I mean, I do not think that it
necessarily disproves it.  I mean, the crucial thing
really is that this, this is obviously a second-hand
evidence and one has to make that clear, but I do not
think, as I say, you should discredit, or I do not
think
you should say that I think it is unlikely that people
who
disapproved of Hitler and his methods simply made up
things about him.  I think the members of the German
resistance were honourable men.
Q.Yes.  Are you aware of the fact that I have large
parts of
the private diary and official diary of Admiral
Canaris
and his second-in-command, Colonel Naruzon, also?
They
both kept diaries and I have parts of the Canaris
diary
which were in British Cabinet Office files right up to
June 1943, covering this period, in other words?
A.You mean they are in British Cabinet Office files?
Q.Yes.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  So what?  What is the significance of
that?
MR IRVING:  I was going to ask in the best way I can that
if

.  P-87



there is no reference to any such remark by Adolf
Hitler
in that diary, would that be one reason, if this
information had been before me at any time?
A.Too many "ifs" there; I would have to see the diary
with
dates, but it does say here that he is, that he has
said
to have described the consequences ----
Q.Yes.
A.--- whereupon Hitler is said to have said, so it is
clear.  I mean, it is an important piece of evidence,
but
it is very indirect and I think one has to make that
clear.
Q.So there are two parts of that statement, that he made
the
report to Hitler which is probably credible because
that
is why the report had been sent to him?
A.Yes.
Q.Whereupon, and this is the second part of the
statement,
Hitler is said to have said something?
A.Yes.
Q.And then at some point in time, two or three days
later
about, a message comes back out to Riga saying, "These
shootings have to stop.  These kind of mass killings,
mass
shootings have to stop".  This is the first part.  I
know
we will come to the part you want to come to next.
A.We have to be clear about the dates here.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Sometime after 30th November 1941?
A.That is right.

.  P-88



MR IRVING:  Sometime after 30th November?
A.January '42 being the letter.  So we do not know
exactly
when this actually happened.  It is a piece of
supporting
evidence for what is in the Bruns document.
Q.Can you look at the end of the Bruns Report where
Bruns
describes going back at some time to see the man he
refers
to as Altenmeyer, but in fact his name was Altemeyer -
---
A.Yes.
Q.--- a 23 year-old SS gangster who was the big top
brass on
the spot.  Altemeyer says, "We have received this new
order saying that this kind of mass shootings have to
stop", and then he adds a sneering comment afterwards
which we will come to in a minute?
A.Well, yes.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think perhaps one ought to read the
whole
of what is quoted?
A.One should read the whole thing.
MR IRVING:  My Lord, I do want to take this in two parts,
if I
may?
A.It would help, I think, if I read the whole thing.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think you should.
A."Altenmeyer triumphantly shows me, 'Here's an order
that
has come that saying that mass shootings of this kind
may
no longer take place in the future.  That is to be
done
more cautiously or discreetly".
MR IRVING:  Shall we take the first part of that first?  If

.  P-89



this order has come, that this kind of mass shootings
have
got to stop, what does your supposition about whether,
knowing what you now do about the report that went up
from
Canaris, through Canaris to the "F", to the Fuhrer,
and
that back comes this order saying, "This kind of mass
shootings has got to stop", can you draw any
conclusions
from that?
A.Yes, it would seem likely that the order derived from
Hitler.
Q.And is there any connection at all, do you think, with
the
police decodes we looked at yesterday from Himmler,
December 1st 1941, where he orders Jaeckel straight to
Fuhrer's Headquarters on December 4th and there is a
meeting between the two of them on December 4th,
"These
arbitrary measures have got to stop.  You have got to
stick to the guidelines.  I will severely punish
actions
like this."  Do you see any connection between all
this?
A.Well, Himmler's meeting with Jaeckel was in his own
headquarters.
Q.Do you see any connection with this kind of general
chain
of events, that killings were going on and they
stopped,
that there are orders that these mass shootings have
got
to stop and there are reports to Hitler?  Do you see,
does
your brain -- I know it is difficult for you to
grapple
with totally new concepts, but here is this matter.
We
are trying to work out who possibly may have ordered,

.  P-90



 "These kinds of mass shootings have to stop"?
MR RAMPTON:  Well, I am sorry, that just ----
MR IRVING:  Mr Rampton, I do wish you would stop
interrupting
every time we are doing something.
MR RAMPTON:  Counsel, I am afraid, as his Lordship will
tell
Mr Irving, has a right to intervene when the
cross-examination is proceeding on a false and time
wasting basis.  He has a duty to the court and to his
client and to the witness.  It is not possible for
that
question to be answered as though the second sentence
did
not exist, in my submission.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I have well in mind the whole of it, and
I think one has to take the whole of it in end, Mr
Irving.
MR IRVING:  My Lord, we are very definitely going to come
to
the second sentence, but I do respectfully submit that
I am taking this in the proper sequence, and we will
give
each part of that second sentence the weight that it
deserves.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, you see, I do not really see that
you
can do that.  If by taking half the sentence you
really
significantly distort the sense of the whole of it, it
seems to me the question is being asked on something
of a
false premise.
MR RAMPTON:  Yes.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is the difficulty.  I think what you
ought to do, if I may suggest it, is proceed the other
way

.  P-91



round, as it were, and deal with the latter part of
it,
namely that the shootings are to be carried out more
discreetly, and put your case.
MR IRVING:  If that will make my case more comprehensible
to
your Lordship, I will willingly do that.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I know what it is because you have just
mentioned it.I think that is the right way of doing
it,
if I may say so, and it meets Mr Rampton's objection.
MR IRVING:  I appreciate why Mr Rampton keeps on
interrupting
and it is now becoming statistically evident that
every
time I am about to make what I consider to be an
important
point ----
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  If I thought he were doing that, I would
tell
him to desist.
MR IRVING:  Because it does seriously disrupt the flow of
cross-examination when this occurs.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, do not let it disrupt it any more.
MR IRVING:  Professor Evans, I referred just now to the
message
decoded on December 1st.  There were, in fact, three
messages, the first one on the morning of December 1st
was
from Jaeckel to Himmler saying:  "I need to have six
more
tommy guns".  Can you accept that as being the fact?
We
have seen them in court.
A.Yes.
Q.The next one from Himmler's staff to Jaeckel later on
December 1st says:  "You are to report back to the

.  P-92



Fuhrer".
A.Yes.
Q."And tell us what means of travel your are adopting".
A.Report back, not to the Fuhrer.
Q.And the second message is signed by Himmler himself,
with
what I aver is greater urgency, saying:  "This kind of
arbitrary action has exceeded the guidelines"----
A.No, it says:  "Arbitrary actions".
Q."Arbitrary actions" ----
A.It does not say: "This kind of arbitrary action", does
it?
Q.I do not want to ----
A."Eigenmachtigkeiten und zuwieder Handlungen," or
something.
Q."Und zuwieder Handlungen werden strengsens bestraft".
A.Yes, exactly.
Q.Is this not an indication that the shootings were done
in
disfavour at one of the highest levels, if I can put
it
like that?
A.Yes, this relates to the shooting of the transport
from
Berlin by Jaeckel which ----
Q.Now we are coming to ----
A.Which Himmler, on 30th November, Himmler and Heydrich
clearly wanted to be stopped and did not get to on
time.
Q.Now we are coming to the point which his Lordship
attaches
importance.  Is there any hint in these messages that
went

.  P-93



from one of these highest levels out to Jaeckel, that
shootings could continue provided they were done in
surreptitious way?
A.The reference in those clearly refers to Jews who were
transported from Berlin.  It clearly relates to the
trainload that came on 30th November and was shot, and
it
quite clearly relates to the shooting of Jews who were
transported from Germany.  Himmler and Heydrich wanted
it
to stop and, indeed, it does stop.  What the Bruns
document says is, in effect, that mass shootings must
continue but more discreetly.  They do not ----
Q.Can we remain with the hard evidence which is the
decodes,
please.
A.I am sorry, the hard evidence is, "here is an order
that
has come saying that mass shootings of this kind" ----
Q.No, we are referring to the decodes.
A.  --- "may no longer take place in the future.  That is
to be
done more cautiously".
Q.Which is?
A.You interpret that as saying Hitler seemingly
intervened
at once to order a "halt zu diese Masseneschiessungen"
--
these mass shootings  -- whereas the word actually
says:
"Der artige Masseneschiessung" -- this kind of mass
shooting, and you leave out the sentence about this
having
to be done more cautiously.

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