Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day022.05 Last-Modified: 2000/07/24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let him continue. I see which way he is going. That is on the assumption it is 2 metres deep, the arithmetic is right. MR IRVING: Yes. Would you agree that the bodies were not left exposed, that there was a certain amount of back fill done afterwards? A.Yes, if you wish. Q.So, in other words, 2 metres of this hypothetical pit would not be used. But let us assume that it was used and let us assume that the walls went straight down, they did not slope inwards, as you can see in the photograph which is before you, so there we would have 150 cubic metres, and you can get about 10 bodies to a cubic metre if you do . P-38 a calculation with which I will not bother you. So how many bodies would be in that pit, just on that rough order of magnitude? A.You say this all in your footnote, "It would have held 1 or 2,000 victims each", that is what you say, but it is entirely hypothetical. There is a number of "ifs" in that question ---- Q.Just one "if"? A.--- if that is the question you were asking. It is entirely hypothetical. We do not know how deep this pit was. Q.So if it was 2 metres deep and if it had straight sides and if there was no back fill ---- A.That is three "ifs", Mr Irving. Q.--- would you stop interrupting -- you would get 1,500 bodies into that pit, is that right? A.Yes. Q.So if it was another metre deep, you would get another 750 in, so you can do an order of magnitude calculation, can you? A.On the basis of those four "ifs", yes, you can do any calculation you like. Q.So you can do a ball park calculation of two or three pits of that kind of size and magnitude would hold of the order of, say, three to 7,000 bodies? A.Yes, on the basis of those four hypotheticals, yes. . P-39 Q.Did you bother to do such a check sum before you criticised me? A.I did not know how deep the pits were, Mr Irving. My criticism is that there is no evidence of the depth of the pits. You do not provide any. You simply make all these if, if, if assumptions and then somehow treat them as facts. Q.Do you accept that when you are writing history and you cannot get all these documents on hand, occasionally you have to make common sense calculations and deductions? A.This is not common sense, Mr Irving. This is a systematic attempt to undermine the figure given of 27,800 Jews, suggesting that this is too large. This is typical of your minimisation of the statistics of the numbers of Jews killed in any number of instances. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right. On to the next point, Mr Irving. I think we have exhausted that. MR IRVING: My Lord, I just say, you do accept that I had a document which stated the figure of 5,000, and that it is within the order of magnitude that the pits would allow? A.No. Q.When you write books, Professor, just as an after thought, do you ever bother to look at photographic evidence like that? A.I look at photographic evidence, yes. Q.My Lord, we now come to the Himmler telephone notes. We . P-40 have some brief after thoughts. November 30th and December 1st. We are on page 351 ---- A.If I can just tidy my desk? Q.While you are tidying, I can ask you, do you remember yesterday saying that we had, of course, no evidence whatsoever that Himmler telephoned Heydrich. It could easily have been the other way round, could it not? A.I think that is a point you yourself made, Mr Irving, about this telephone log. It does not say who telephoned whom. Q.Was this, in fact, the point you made because I am asking the questions. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Does it matter? Does it matter in the slightest? I mean, tell me if it does. MR IRVING: Will you agree that on page 351 you on more than one occasion state, as a matter of fact, that Himmler telephoned Heydrich? A.Yes, that is an after thought I had on reconsidering this, re-reading this suddenly. As a result of what you yourself said, and you pointed out that one did not know who was phoning whom and I took that on board. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can you explain very briefly why it matters one way or the other? A.It is additional uncertainty. The point at issue here, my Lord, as you know, is that Mr Irving has on a number of occasions claimed that this is a Hitler order given by . P-41 Hitler to Himmler to transmit then to Heydrich and that ---- Q.Well, you have got to get the link between Hitler and Himmler. A.It is the link between Hitler and Himmler which has not been established, and this is a phone log in which there is some uncertainty which I think a responsible historian has to point out. That is all. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, no, I follow why it could be of some marginal significance. A.It is not hugely important. MR IRVING: You say that this is not hugely important? A.The vital question is the link between Hitler and Himmler, plus, of course, your misrepresentation in a number of your publications of the contents of the message. Q.Will you accept that this document is a significant document or is it totally unimportant in the flow of things? A.No, it is a significant document. Q.It is a significant document. Who first found it and who first used it? Was it a revisionist? A.I do not think you described yourself as a revisionist then, Mr Irving. Q.Was it a historian on whom you have generally looked down throughout the last few days? A.Mr Irving, I have not at any point disputed the fact that . P-42 you have discovered large numbers of documents. Q.Did anybody in the world bother to read those telephone notes before I did? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, everybody accepts you deserve credit for not only uncovering this document but a great many others as well? A.It is what you do with them that is the problem. MR IRVING: You mean I make use of them? Is that is the problem? A.No, you misuse them . MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us get to the point. MR IRVING: Will you look at the Peter Witte book, the Himmler diaries? A.Could I have a copy, please? Q.If mine has not been nicked, then I will lend you mine. Here we are. I say that with---- A.Will you not need it yourself? Q.I know most of these documents off by heart. A.Mr Rampton, I think Mr Irving should have a copy, really. Q.April 20th 1942. MR RAMPTON: If you do not mind, I will keep mine. MR IRVING: April 20th 1942. A.Where are we? Q.It is a horribly expensive book. It is over œ100, I believe. MR JUSTICE GRAY: That explains why I do not have one, does it? . P-43 MR IRVING:April 20th 1942. While you are looking for it, what significance did the date of April 20th have? A.It is Hitler's birthday. Q.Adolf Hitler's birth date. If Himmler was visiting Hitler on that occasion, as he was, if he was at the Wolfschanze, Hitler's headquarters, is it likely he would have said more than just, "happy birthday Mein Fuhrer, many happy returns"? A.It says here that he goes to see Hitler at 12.30 and at half past one he brings him the congratulations of the SS. Then at half past two he has a kind of, I guess, birthday lunch. Q.Does he telephone Heydrich on that day? A.At 12 o'clock, yes. Q.Is one of the references in that telephone message "keine Vernichtung der Zigeuner"? A.Yes it is. Q.What does that translate into English? A."No annihilation of the gypsies". Q.Does that look like murder in that connection? A.No. Clearly, they have been considering killing the gypsies, but they are not clear about whether all the gypsies should be killed. So he is ordering that they should not be. Q.Not clear? If somebody says "keine Vernichtung der Zigeuner", that seems pretty clear to me that an order is . P-44 being given that gypsies are not to be killed. Would you agree? If that is the word, "vernichtung", in that case? A.The Nazis of course divided the gypsies into mixed race gypsies, who were the majority, and what they regarded as pure bred gypsies, who were in a small minority, and for reasons of his rather strange interest in racial history, Himmler wanted to keep the pure bred gypsies alive to subject them to investigation. Q.Is there any indication of those considerations in this telephone call? Is there any reference to pure bred gypsies, or half-bred gypsies, or is it just to gypsies? A.Well, as the footnote explains, 5,000 gypsies had recently, just before this telephone conversation, been killed in the woods in Chelmno, and it quotes an order by Himmler, which is preserved in the Moscow archives, that gypsies who were settled should not be proceeded against. Of course, the fact is that the Nazis did kill very, very large numbers of gypsies in the Second World War in Auschwitz and elsewhere. They are the one racial group, apart from the Jews, who suffered this kinds of genocide. Q.So, although what appears to have been a clear order not to kill the gypsies was issued by somebody at Hitler's headquarters on April 20th 1942, the Nazis killed large numbers of gypsies? A.We do not know how this was followed up, and we do not know precisely which gypsies this referred to. . P-45 Q.The follow up appears to have been that large numbers were killed. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Are we not wandering miles away? I am sorry to keep interrupting, but we started off on 30th November 1941. MR IRVING: We have moved on. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Altogether? MR IRVING: I think so, yes, my Lord. We dealt with it at some length yesterday. MR JUSTICE GRAY: All right. MR IRVING: That was an afterthought, as I said. We have now moved on. I do not know if your Lordship considers this item of relevance? MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not quite sure where we are going. If you could help me? MR IRVING: This is one of the chain, actually. This document I consider to be one of the chain of Hitler---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: Your argument is that, because there was an order, and you say emanates from Hitler, that the gypsies should not be killed, that indicates a concern also for the Jews? I am not belittling the argument but that is what it is? MR IRVING: It is a high carat, a 22 carat piece of evidence, if I can put it like that, written in the handwriting of the mass murderer himself, Heinrich Himmler, in Hitler's headquarters, an order from somebody else to him. . P-46 A.Sorry, Mr Irving. Can I just quote this diary here? "12 o'clock, telephone with Heydrich. Visit to Greiser, so on, Poles, keine vernichtung der Zigeuner, no annihilation of the gypsies". That is 12 o'clock. "12.30 travel to Hitler's headquarters, Fuhrerhauptquartier, 12.30". Underneath that there is a line that says "RFSS", that is the Reichsfuhrer SS, that is Himmler, Mein Fuhrer, with the Fuhrer. So the telephone conversation with Heydrich which says, "keine vernichtung der Zigeuner", happened half an hour before Himmler even set off to see Hitler. MR IRVING: Pure chance then that this is on that day, April 20th, and there is no connection at all therefore in your opinion with Adolf Hitler or the Fuhrer's headquarters? This is just Himmler suddenly having had a brainstorm, saying, "let us not kill the gypsies"? A.Yes.
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