The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day020.15

Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day020.15
Last-Modified: 2000/07/24

   Q.   This is not the question and you cannot ask me questions,
        Professor.  Are you suggesting that there is no
        distinction between an article written by an author for a

.          P-131

        journal and a paper written by that journal?
   MR RAMPTON:  I have to say, my Lord, I do find this very
        trying.  Time is passing.  I do worry about creatures like
        Reichskristallnacht and Schlegelberger and all those
        people down the line.  We know from Mr Irving's own
        answers in cross-examination that the Journal reprints
        versions of his speeches which he has edited and approved
        in advance of publication.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I remember.
   MR RAMPTON:  It is on the record.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am anxious not to interrupt too much, but
        Mr Rampton is plainly right.
   MR RAMPTON:  I know that, but I have a duty to the court and
        also to my clients.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It is not a criticism of you.  I think
        have been very restrained, but it is very difficult,
        Mr Irving.  I really cannot tell you often enough that
        I want to get on to the meat of Professor Evans'
   MR IRVING:  I have assured you how far we shall certainly
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  We have had two full days' of
        cross-examination and we still have not got there.  We
        have not even begun.
   MR IRVING:  My Lord, I am not responsible for the fact that
        instructing solicitors did not instruct the witness to
        write his report in a way which would be useful to

.          P-132

   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, well ----
   MR IRVING:  I can only cross-examine on the basis of the
        which is before your Lordship and myself.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  When the Judge tells you time and again
        he is not deriving any assistance from the
        cross-examination on these earlier passages in the
        surely, Mr Irving, it makes sense to get on to what
        court wants to hear about.
   MR IRVING:  But if your Lordship were to say to me, "Mr
        tear up pages 1 to 250 of the report", I would
        have done so.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Right, on to the next point.
   MR IRVING:  No one would have done so more willingly than
I.  I
        have had to devote a lot of very scarce resources to
        through these in great deal on the basis that they are
        before your Lordship also and I cannot allow these ---
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Let me tell you this, Mr Irving, it is
        last case I would want to do this, but what sometimes
        to happen is that one says after a certain amount of
        cross-examination, "Right, this is going too slowly.
        have X amount of time to complete the cross-
        I would be very loath to do that in a case of this
        but I can see that coming if we do not move to what
        is at the heart of Professor Evans's expert report.
   MR IRVING:  My Lord, I said very clearly yesterday that I
        going to ask for two and a half more days.  I shall

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        certainly keep to that timetable which I think allows
        possibly sufficient time for re-examination in the
        remaining half day.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am really interested to hear Professor
        Evans being cross-examined by you on these points that
        makes on the historiography.
   MR IRVING:  But he has also made these points on guilt by
        association, my Lord, and they stand unless I
        them.  He says that Judge Steglisch was once
introduced to
        me at a hotel breakfast, this kind of thing.
                  Page 184, witness.  We are still back on
        You complain about the fact that the IHR sells my
books or
        advertises my books.
   A.   No, I am not complaining at all.  Who am I to complain
        about that?
   Q.   Well, you say that they advertise my books -- the
        and third lines, the book is obtainable through the
   A.   Yes.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Look.  What he is saying in the whole of
        paragraph is that you are closely associated with the
        IHR.  If you want to put to him that you are no more
        the occasional speaker at the odd conference, put that
        then move on.  If that is your case?  I do not know
        your case is.
   MR IRVING:  It certainly is.  Professor Evans, are you

.          P-134

        with any of the other speakers there?  Would you agree
        that John Toland is an occasional speaker at the IHR
   A.   I think he has spoken once, to my recollection.
   Q.   Is John Toland a Pulitzer prize winning author on the
        American literary scene?
   A.   Plenty of people have won Pulitzer prizes.  It does
        mean to say that I think that their views are
        simply because of that.
   Q.   Is he a Holocaust denier or right-wing extremist, to
   A.   That I do not know presently.  I know him only as the
        author of a biography of Hitler.
   Q.   Are you familiar with the fact that the Canadian
        journalist and author Jim Back has spoken at the IHR?
        James Back?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Yes or no?
   A.   Yes, I am.
   Q.   Are you familiar with the fact that the Japanese
        general Hidi Omiki has spoken at the IHR?
   A.   Let me just mention James Back because he is an author
        has claimed that many, and I go into this on page 186
        my report.
   Q.   He is a Holocaust denier?
   A.   He is somebody who has written two books now, alleging

.          P-135

        that the Americans murdered six million Germans after
        end of the Second World War, that they deliberately
        at least a million German prisoners of war at the end
        the Second World War.
   Q.   Has that book been taken very seriously?
   A.   No.  I do not regard him as a serious author and, of
        course, as I say, his paranoid style of writing based
        the manipulation of statistics which historians have
        easily shown to be totally false, bears a striking
        resemblance to the pseudo history of the Holocaust
        deniers, which is no doubt why he has been welcome at
        their meetings and indeed why you quote his work in
        book on Nuremberg.
   Q.   He is a Holocaust denier?
   A.   I do not know whether he is or not, but certainly I
        his ludicrous ----
   Q.   Has he not expressed strong opinions against Holocaust
        denial, both in the Canadian press and elsewhere?
   A.   If you can show me documentary evidence of that, I
will be
        prepared to accept it, but not otherwise.
   Q.   Are two other speakers at the IHR, the Japanese
        Hidi Omiki, and the CIA senior official, Victor
        are they Holocaust deniers?
   A.   What I would need to do to, as it were, make a
judgment on
        the full import of what you are saying there is to see
        what they actually said at the meetings of the

.          P-136

        provide documentation of what they said, and if what
        said has nothing to do with Holocaust denial, then,
        directly or indirectly, I will accept your point.  But
        I do think that Mr Back's thesis of course, I directly
   Q.   You do not like them, this is plain, right? You do not
        like the thesis of Mr Jim Back?
   A.   It is not that I do not like them, Mr Irving, it is
        they are completely phoney.
   Q.   Are you an expert on those matters?
   A.   Why do you think that he has alleged that the
        killed 6 million Germans after the end of the Second
   Q.   Have his books been published by the world's leading
        publishers, including St Martin's Press?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, can we please move on?  This
is a
        man who says that the Americans killed 6 million
        One's eyebrows rise slightly, do they not?
   MR IRVING:  My Lord, I am not going to go down that
        cul-de-sac and, if I had done, your Lordship would
        reprimanded me.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You were suggesting that the man was a
        respectable historian.  I do not know whether he is or
        is not, but I really think we must get on, please.
   MR IRVING:  I am in a dilemma there because, if I had taken
        that particular red herring, then I would have been

.          P-137

        rightly reprimanded by your Lordship.  I have just
        on.  Is it right to say therefore that the IHR has a
        reputation for inviting revisionist speakers with
        unorthodox views to speak there?
   A.   In its own self understanding of revisionism, yes,
        revisionism in which Holocaust denial is the central
        element.  That not to say of course that every speaker
        there gives a speech which is purely centrally or
        concerned with Holocaust denial, but that is what they
        about and that is why they invite people like Mr Back.
   Q.   So it is correct to say that sometimes Holocaust
        speak there, but the fact that people speak there does
        make them Holocaust deniers?
   A.   I think, if anyone accepts an invitation to the
        of Historical Review, it is quite clear to everybody
        it is a Holocaust denial Institute with no academic
        respectability or credentials whatsoever and that
        therefore, by appearing there, you are approving, at
        in part, of what they do.
   Q.   So, if somebody comes and speaks at Caius College,
        would be automatically accepting the tenets of all the
        other professors who have spoken there?  Is that the
        of position ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, please.
   MR IRVING:  It is such an absurd kind of argument to make
        I thought I would highlight its absurdity.

.          P-138

   A.   I do not know if that is a question, my Lord.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do not think it is.
   MR IRVING:  Page 191, paragraph 4, you state that I
        on my website a very lengthy tract by somebody with
        pseudonym of Samuel Crowell.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Very brief answer:  Are you familiar with the
        between publishing something on a website and just
        a link on a website to somebody else's documents
        else in the world, in other words what is called an
        outlink or hyperlink?
   A.   Yes, I think I am.
   Q.   Would it be the same as being editor of a magazine
        the footnote of the magazine saying, readers might be
        interested in this document by Mr Crowell which they
        find in that library somewhere over there?  Would that
        a comparison?
   A.   There is a similarity, but of course the link is close
        the case of the Internet because you do actually have
        trail across to another library or go out to a
bookshop to
        buy the book.  You can just flick a switch and it is
   Q.   But to suggest, as you have, that Irving has published
        his website this very lengthy tract is in other words
        inaccurate?  I have posted a link to a document by
        author somewhere else.

.          P-139

   A.   I understood that it was on the Auschwitz section of
        website.  My recollection is that that is where I read
        it.  It is on the Auschwitz index, is it not.
   Q.   If you had clicked on it, would you have been
surprised to
        find that you were no longer in my website but
        in California?
   A.   I have to say I did not realize that, if that is the
   Q.   If you are referring to the Auschwitz index, will you
        agree that that same page also has hyperlinks to
        organizations like Niscore and Holocaust History
        Do you know those web sites?
   A.   You would have to provide me with a print out so that
        I could examine it.
   Q.   If I say to you that on those pages you will find a
        hyperlink to Niscore, do you know what Niscore is?
   A.   Yes, I know what Niscore is, Mr Irving .
   Q.   What is Niscore?  Is it a body friendly to me?
   A.   No, it is not.  I accepted this on Thursday, Mr
        On your website you do include a reference to, or the
        ability, you say, to make people alert to the fact
        there is a Niscore website which gives a contrary view
        your own.  Indeed, you print the whole text of my own
        report.  That is up on your website.  The daily
        transcripts of this trial are on your website.  But
        also use your website to disseminate Holocaust denial
        material, such as that by Samuel Crowell.

.          P-140

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