Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day020.09
Last-Modified: 2000/07/24

   MR IRVING:  I do not want, but I wish to make some comments on
        this.  Your Lordship will remember that on November 4th
        when we had the pretrial review, I expressed grave
        misgivings about the use of edited broadcast programmes
        with all the, I will not say the chicanery that has gone
        into it, but all the clever cross-cutting and, unless we
        see the transcript of the whole programme or, at any rate,
        very substantial excerpts which are clearly indicative
        that nothing has been put in or nothing has been cut out,

.          P-75


        I would be very hesitant about allowing this kind of
        material which may be prejudicial to be put in in this
        form.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, you say that, but if I read to
you
        one of the extracts ----
   MR IRVING:  Yes, please do.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  --- it is in these terms:  "To me, the
Anne
        Frank's diaries are a romantic novel, rather like
'Gone
        With the Wind' and I would not read something like
that".
   MR IRVING:  As a source, yes.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  How can the context really affect what
you
        are saying which is that it is all made up?
   MR IRVING:  I am not saying that at all, my Lord.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Oh, I thought you were saying...
   MR IRVING:  That is certainly not the point of what I am
        making.  The Anne Frank diary, I am sure that your
        Lordship, like myself, has never had the pleasure of
        reading that particular work, but I have read a great
deal
        about it, including the official Dutch investigation
into
        it.  I had lots of newspaper articles about it and I
am
        quite familiar with its genesis; the way it started
off
        first as a fragmentary diary, it was then rewritten by
her
        in captivity because she had nothing else to do and
then,
        as she grew up, she then rewrote it as a novel.
                  That is what I am saying there, but to take
just
        that one sentence and to hang on that the imputation
that

.          P-76



        I am saying the whole thing is a pack of lies, which
your
        Lordship just put on it, I think is a very adventurous
        forward step.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, do we have the ----
   MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, I really do think this is becoming
the
        most frightful waste of time.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, at least it is relevant.
   MR RAMPTON:  I know.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  We have spent two days on the wholly
        peripheral matters.
   MR RAMPTON:  I have been as patient as I possibly can be,
but
        now I really cannot sit here any longer because I have
in
        my hand a piece of paper taken from Mr Irving's
website,
        or through his website, on 7th February of this month
of
        an interview that he gave to something called CNN,
which
        is a satellite news station, and he was interviewed on
        16th January.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I have that.  I have read that.
   MR RAMPTON:  This year.
   MR IRVING:  Here we go again.  It is another very heavily
        cross-cut and edited broadcast.
   MR RAMPTON:  Well, I just read these four lines:
"Interviewer
        to Irving:  Did you say that the Anne Frank diary was
a
        forgery?  Irving:  Guilty.  Interviewer:  Is it a
        forgery?  Irving:  No".
   MR IRVING:  Absolutely right.  Absolutely right.  Before
1979

.          P-77



        I was of the opinion that it was a highly suspect
document
        for precisely the reasons I have set out, namely the
        father said the handwriting was the same the whole way
        through.  He produced expert evidence in court to that
        effect in order to win a libel action.  The
handwriting
        was partly in ball point ink.  So the conclusions
there
        are absolutely plain.
                  After 1980 we had the German Government
        investigation which confirmed that the ball point ink
was
        there and it was not until the Dutch carried out their
        authoritative tests that I was perfectly satisfied I
had
        been wrong with that belief.  I have made not the
        slightest hesitation in admitting that I was wrong,
which
        is absolutely the right way to handle the matter.
                  But to take things out of chronology, which
is
        what this witness has been doing, and to imply that by
        calling it a novel I am suggesting that the diary is
in
        some way a pack of lies, is I think very unjust and
not
        borne out by the evidence when it is presented in the
        proper sequence.  But I repeat what I said about the
        prejudicial nature of producing fragments of very
heavily
        edited sound bites from American or German or Danish
        television programmes.  Your Lordship is familiar with
how
        these programmes are concocted.  The scissors play an
        important part.
   A.   My Lord, may I make three points?

.          P-78



   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.
   A.   The first is when you describe something, when one
        describes something, as a novel, one surely implies
that
        it is fictional, it is not telling the truth.  I do
think
        that is a significant use of words.
                  Secondly, in my report on page 156 I quote
an
        interview in 1993:  "Interviewer:  Are you aware that
the
        Dutch Centre for War Documentation has made a full
report
        about this?" that is to say the allegations of
        falsification and so on in the diaries.  "Irving:
Doesn't
        surprise me.  Interviewer:  And they say it's - they
have
        made public all the diaries, and they examined the
        handwriting, and all there is to know about it.
Irving:
        Doesn't surprise me.  A lot of money is at stake.  The
        Anne Frank Foundation is a very wealthy political
        organization in Amsterdam.  Interview:   We're talking
        about the Dutch State War Documentation Centre here.
        We're not talking about the Anne Frank Foundation.
We're
        talking about a public institution.  Irving:  But I'm
        talking about the financial interests which are at
stake
        here."
                  I think, Mr Irving, the clear implication of
        that is that the full report of the Dutch Centre for
War
        Documentation is a falsification and is not reliable
in
        any sense.
                  The third point I want to make ----

.          P-79



   MR IRVING:  Why have you not ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, there are three points.
   A.   And If I can make my third point, is that again in
1993,
        his Lordship has already quoted part of this interview
        that you gave, saying that you would not read it, you
read
        certain passages and so on.  "We have samples of Anne
        Frank's real handwriting in postcards which she wrote
to
        friends in 1940 and 1939.  They were recently
auctioned in
        an auction house in the United States about two years
        ago.  That handwriting is totally different from the
        handwriting in the diaries.  They are as different as
        chalk and cheese and the extraordinary finding is that
        some of the pages of the diaries have been written in
ball
        point pen which is a pen that didn't exist in Anne
Frank's
        lifetime".  1993, Mr Irving.
   MR IRVING:  Yes, and, quite clearly, the parts that are
written
        in ball point ink in the diaries cannot have been
written
        by the girl who wrote the postcards, am I right?
   A.   You are saying some of the pages -- that simply is not
the
        case.
   Q.   But some of the pages were written in ball point pen,
is
        that correct?
   A.   No.  As I understand it, there were stylistic
        emendations.  There are not whole pages written in
ball
        point ----
   Q.   Do you have any evidence for the words "stylistic

.          P-80



        emendations"?
   A.   --- pen.  Well, this is -- yes, the report of the
Dutch
        Centre for War Documentation which is summarized in
their
        introduction to their Critical Edition which you
dismiss
        as being the product of financial manipulation by the
Anne
        Frank Foundation, whereas a few minutes ago, Mr
Irving,
        you just said that you had accepted that report ----
   MR IRVING:  I do totally.
   A.   --- in 1989 when it came out ----
   Q.   And I did and I always have done.
   A.   --- and here you are in 1993 saying that you do not
accept
        it.  I cannot accept what you are saying there.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, I think we have now had enough
        evidence on the Anne Frank diaries.  I think we will
move
        on to the next topic.
   MR IRVING:  My Lord, he made now points.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, I have got to introduce some
        control.  We have spent this morning so far dealing
with
        pages, I think you started at 128, is that right, and
we
        have now got to 156.
   MR IRVING:  If this expert report was not so flawed ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  So we have spent nearly two hours dealing
        with very subsidiary points.  We still have not got on
to
        the guts of this report.
   MR IRVING:  If this expert report was not so flawed and
bias,
        then I would not have been bogged down in the marshes,

.          P-81



        shall we say, before we came to the real materials.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I have made my ruling.  You are going to
have
        the opportunity to answer questions in cross-
examination.
        We are moving on to the this next topic, and I am
afraid I
        am going to have to be much more firm with you than I
have
        been up until now.
   MR IRVING:  If the witness could possibly answer more
briefly,
        then we would not spent so much time on these matters.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, that is not fair.
   MR IRVING: I advance with the utmost trepidation, my Lord,
        because I have no idea where ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, advance and then see whether the
        trepidation was justified.
   MR IRVING:  One never knows whether the mines are dummies
or
        not.  Page 158, the end of paragraph 34, you complain
that
        I state that the witness Hoss made statements which
        contain egregious anachronisms, inconsistencies and
other
        generally implausible passages.  Do you not accept
that
        that is so then?
   A.   Let me -- where are we?  Yes.  Let me read the
paragraph.
        We are talking about the memoirs of Rudolf Hoss, the
        Kommandant of Auschwitz, and the interrogations of
Rudolf
        Hoss which were made in Polish captivity.  In your
book on
        Nuremberg you allege, I say, that Hoss was
"manhandled" by
        those who arrested him and kept without sleep until he
        confessed.  You term this "torture".  You say:
"Hoss's

.          P-82



        confessions contain many deliberate errors to make it
        clear they were untrue.  His memory is patchy about
days
        and places, and about the events of four or five years
        earlier.  There were many inconsistencies in his
account.
        He signed a confession in English although he had no
        reading knowledge of English.  He frequently changed
his
        testimony about numbers.  Hoss wrote his memoirs in
Polish
        captivity 'as a means of postponing his fate'.  His
        statements, Irving charges, contained 'egregious
        anachronisms, inconsistencies and other generally
        implausible passages".
   Q.   Will you now answer the question?
   A.   So I am trying to summarize your views there.
   Q.   Do you dispute the fact that his statements contain
these
        inaccuracies and implausible statements?
   A.   I do not think there is -- well, first of all, I do
not
        think there is any evidence that there are deliberate
        errors to make it clear that what he said was untrue.
                  Secondly, I think one has to distinguish
between
        the interrogations and the memoirs.  Hoss says in his
        memoirs that he was manhandled and very badly treated.
   Q.   Where did he write the memoirs?
   A.   He writes his memoirs in Polish captivity, and the
        confessions, well, the first of his confessions which,
        admissions, statements, which resulted from
interrogations
        was, therefore, discounted.  What I am referring to
here

.          P-83



        are the memoirs.
   Q.   I only have two questions to ask.  Would a confession
or a
        statement obtained by these means ever be accepted by
a
        British court of law?
   A.   I have already said, this is only one statement, the
first
        statement.  The memoirs that he wrote were certainly
not
        obtained under duress.  They were written in captivity
        under the imminent prospect of death and, to my mind,
that
        makes them more likely to be honest.
   Q.   Would you answer the question?  Would it be acceptable
in
        a British court of law, this kind of statement?
   A.   I am trying to explain the context.  The statement
which
        he made under duress, the first of his statements, was
not
        used.
   Q.   If he was such a reliable witness and so convincing,
why
        was he not called by the prosecution at Nuremberg when
he
        was actually in the building in a cell?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is a question to which this witness
        cannot possibly know the answer.
   MR IRVING:  On page 160 at line 4 of paragraph 36:  "Irving
        casts doubt on almost all testimony at the Nuremberg
War"
         -- is that an exaggeration, that I doubt almost all
the
        testimony produced at Nuremberg?
   A.   That is not what I say.
   Q.   Well, you say that I say it does not fit my arguments;
        I say it was obtained by torture and threats?

.          P-84



   A.   No, no, I do not, Mr Irving.  I say:  "Irving casts
doubt
        on almost all testimony at the Nuremberg War Crimes
Trials
        or during the prior interrogations if it does not fit
his
        arguments, alleging it was obtained by torture and
        threats".  Those are my precise words.

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