Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day017.23 Last-Modified: 2000/07/20 Q. Can we please turn back to your L1 tab 7 documents and turn to page 74 where I think you were accused -- this is Hans Frank on 16th December accused by Mr Irving of deliberately suppressing significant parts of the German. It is the paragraph that begins "Die Juden"? A. Yes. Q. I only want you to look at the sentence, the next sentence, which begins: "[German - document not provided]". What would you say if you were going to say "gas" there? A. "Vergasung". . P-205 Q. "Vergasung". So he cannot shoot them, he cannot poison them, then he says "verden aber", that means "but", does it not? A. Yes. Q. [German], what does that mean? A. Well, "Verden aber" would be in the sense "but nonetheless". Q. "Nonetheless"? A. And "eingriffa" would be, you know, "steps would be undertaken". Q. Yes, [German] "We can do something"? A. Yes. Q. And then it says: "Die [German - document not provided]" That means what? A. That is "one way or another", "in some way". Q. [German] and then the word "vernichtung erfolch". What does that mean? A. "That would lead to a successful", literally in the way Germans combine words it means "a destruction success" and an English translation usually would be, we would invert those and say "a successful destruction". Q. So "We will find a way to bring about a successful destruction"? A. Correct. Q. "One way or another"? A. Yes, yes. . P-206 Q. Then I think you will be pleased, Professor, that that is that, but I would like, if you can give me the answer -- what is this? Finally, I would like a little bit of history from you. You were asked about the Wannsee conference? A. Yes. Q. Was the date in January, 20th January, I think it was, '42, its original date? A. No, it was originally scheduled for December 8 or 9. Q. And when was it cancelled, do you know, or postponed? A. Just right before that, basically at the time of the Russian counter offensive around Moscow on 5th and Pearl Harbour on the 7th. I forget the exact date. The notices of -- when the marginal note that Rademacher makes on the invitation, you know, that he hears it has been cancelled, I do not remember the exact date, but it comes just before. Q. So does one know the reason why it was cancelled? A. They do not stipulate -- they do not specify, but I think a probable inference is that at that point a crisis is going on and the people who are invited have too many other things to do. MR IRVING: It says "because of intervening events", I think, does it not? A. It would suggest that the 5th and 7th were very important events that suddenly did not allow -- that Heydrich's . P-207 schedule had to be changed. MR RAMPTON: Right. Thank you very much, Professor. My Lord, those are all the questions I have in re-examination. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, if you think there is anything raised by the re-examination would you like to further question the Professor about, feel free. < FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR IRVING. MR IRVING: My Lord, going in reverse order, the "We cannot shoot them, we cannot poison them", what would the objections to shooting and poisoning have been that would not also have applied to gassing, if any? A. The shooting of 3 million or 2 million in this case very possibly would have, simply it would have been much too public. I do not know why Frank would have said they were impossible. He is not the one that has been charged with trying to figure out how to do it. This is an extraordinary thing that is to about to take place, and the mind boggles that Frank could not conceive immediately of how this would be done strikes me as ---- Q. He was not talking from a script, was he? A. No. Q. Finally, on this document which has been put to which I have not seen mentioned before, which is the Event Report No. 80. A. Yes. Q. You will notice it has the top State Secret classification . P-208 on it? A. This has Geheim, yes. Q. Would I be right in saying that all SS documents are very pernickety about the classification of security on them, an that the Foreign Office and other bodies were less pernickety about the security grade placed on them? A. I do not think I could say that. I notice here that this is 48 copies. They may have wanted to stamp it so those who were getting, given the number in circulation, that they would be very careful with it. That is speculation, but I do not know that SS had a tendency to use the Top Secret stamp more than the Foreign Office. Q. Is this document typed in the special Fuhrer typewriter? A. No, it is not. Q. Have you ever seen any Event Reports typed in this special Fuhrer typewriter for submission to Hitler? A. Nothing, except the No. 51 we have talked about. Q. Is that called an Event Report? A. No. Q. Or is it called Meldung Fuhrer? A. That is a report to the Fuhrer. Q. Is there any indication on this document that it was shown to the Fuhrer or submitted to the Fuhrer, like vorgelegt? A. No. Q. Thank you. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Why would just the one document have been . P-209 typed out in the large type for the Fuhrer and marked vorgelegt? A. Why were these not typed out? Q. Sorry, that was a rather badly phrased question. Does the fact that there is only one such document extant indicate that there only ever was one document? A. Given the destruction of documents, particularly, say, in Eichmann's office and in the SS, it leaves open the question that there was a file of such things, and they were destroyed. We do not know. MR IRVING: My Lord, I answer that. There is in fact an extensive file of such reports to the Fuhrer, but they cover everything like the midget torpedo attack on Turpids. It is the whole gamut. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sure there are. I was talking only about reports from the Einsatzgruppen. MR IRVING: That is only one I have seen also. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I appreciate it is the only one anyone knows about. I was wondering whether that suggested that there only ever was one, but the Professor says not. No more questions? MR IRVING: No further questions. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Professor Browning, thank you very much. You are free to go. < (The witness stood down). MR JUSTICE GRAY: We are going to resume at 10.30 on ---- . P-210 MR RAMPTON: I think Professor Evans will be here on Thursday. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Are you wanting to interpolate some witness of your own before him? MR IRVING: We have Dr John Fox. MR RAMPTON: Whatever you like. MR IRVING: I am only going to ask Mr Rampton whether he was going to cross-examine me further and, if so, when? MR RAMPTON: I will not only say when but I hope what, because it is the last things I have to ask about. I was hoping to do it on Friday, so as to get it out of the way, but I am in other people's hands. MR IRVING: Can you say about how long you will be cross-examining? MR RAMPTON: I do not think it will take all that long. MR JUSTICE GRAY: What are the topics? MR RAMPTON: The topics are, well, there is the question of Mr Irving's knowledge of that Muller signal to the Einsatzgruppen. I do not accept his answer that he has not seen it before, and there is a reason for that which I shall not say what it is now, apart from the fact that it appears to have been in the public domain for nearly 20 years. MR IRVING: I have been in the public domain for 62 years. MR JUSTICE GRAY: We are not going to have the cross-examination now. MR RAMPTON: That I think we have dealt with. So that has . P-211 gone. There is Zamus report of 16th December 1942 which appeared and then disappeared because your Lordship said Mr Irving needed more time. MR IRVING: Also you should reveal where it came from. MR RAMPTON: That is happening and I hope that will be in place by Friday. There is Anne Frank that I forgot about out of Evans and also van Pelt, and I think I ought to ask a couple of questions, it is quite short. Then there is, again which I hope I can keep quite short, the question of Mr Irving's associates, if I may call them that. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. MR RAMPTON: That will certainly be completed in a day or perhaps less. MR JUSTICE GRAY: My slight feeling, and it is up to Mr Irving in the end, well, I suppose it is up to me in the end, but I wonder whether it is right to interrupt his cross-examination ---- MR RAMPTON: I agree. MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- of really your major witness,. MR IRVING: May I suggest that I bring Dr Fox on Thursday? MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you are going to do that bring him first off. MR RAMPTON: Can I say not, because I think I told your Lordship Professor Evans is in real difficulty on Friday. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. MR RAMPTON: Which is why I am proposing -- if your Lordship . P-212 wants to leave Friday blank I quite understand the reason why, nothing personally, but from Mr Irving' point of view, then he has three clear days to gather himself again for a renewed assault on Professor Evans on Monday. Alternatively Dr. Fox might come on Friday, but it seems a bit of a ---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: That I would not have so much difficulty with, because Fox, frankly, I do not quite know what he is going to say, but he has not a major problem for Mr Irving in terms of preparation. MR RAMPTON: Absolutely certainly not, and none for me because I am not going to cross-examine him. MR IRVING: You do not what he is going to say yet. MR RAMPTON: Of course I do. I have read his witness statement. MR JUSTICE GRAY: So I have but I have forgotten what is in it. MR RAMPTON: Something about free speech I think. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Shall we just plan the timetable? On Thursday we will have Evans all day. On Friday we will Fox for as long as he takes. Then we will resume with Evans on Monday. We will have the cross-examination of yourself at a later date to be fixed. MR RAMPTON: That means only one more day and a tiny bit in court this week I think. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Which I think at this stage of the case is not such a bad thing. . P-213 MR IRVING: Preparation of Evans is complicated by the fact that I now have to shoe-horn the material which I have prepared for Levin and Eatwell into the Evans cross-examination. MR JUSTICE GRAY: We are giving you a day tomorrow and then you are going to have most of Friday. MR IRVING: Very well. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Are you happy with that because tell me if you are not? MR IRVING: So Fox on Thursday? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Fox on Friday morning. MR RAMPTON: If he can manage it. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Tell me if it turns out to create any problems for you. MR RAMPTON: We do not mind, my Lord. If Mr Irving would rather have Dr Fox here on Thursday we do not mind. MR IRVING: No. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think it is quite a good idea to have him on Friday. So we are not sitting tomorrow but we are sitting on Thursday. (The court adjourned until Thursday, 19th February 2000) . P-214
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