Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day016.20 Last-Modified: 2000/07/20 MR RAMPTON: Yes. With these documents it is fairly straightforward because the footnote reference is at the bottom right hand corner of the page. These are all Browning documents. Therefore, if one uses the footnote reference, one can go straight to the relevant passage in Browning. It is more difficult with the Evans report but this is quite straightforward. If one looks, one sees that it is footnote 28 in this particular case, and one finds it therefore. That is how I found it in Browning. One finds it then on page 11. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Longerich or Browning? MR RAMPTON: No, Browning, my Lord. Footnote 28 follows this sentence, "On a separate line for Jews executed is listed 3,663,211", which is what the document says. . P-145 A. If I am not mistaken. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I must be being stupid. You have just referred me to footnote 28 in Browning. MR RAMPTON: Yes, which is on page 11. MR JUSTICE GRAY: How does that help me get an English translation? MR RAMPTON: Because it is translated in part at the top of the page, reports to the Fuhrer. A. My Lord, I believe we have moved on to a new document, which is the July 2nd. MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is what I thought I was asking about. MR RAMPTON: I am so sorry, I thought we were still in December 42. MR JUSTICE GRAY: No. We have had quite a lot of evidence about the July 2nd 1941 document, which is why I said I really must see what is actually said. MR RAMPTON: Browning, page 12. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Page 12? MR RAMPTON: Your Lordship will find a cross- reference index at the front of this bundle of Browning documents. Every single document that is referred to in the index has its footnote number behind it. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I follow that, but what I am looking for is an English translation, and which I do not think is an unreasonable request because this is a document that is quite important. . P-146 MR IRVING: My Lord, while they are looking, I hesitate to indulge in one-upmanship, but I have translated the next document I am going to give to your Lordship. MR JUSTICE GRAY: That would be helpful. This does not apply to all documents. I do not think I am being unreasonable. Where it is quite important I think I ought to be provided with an English text. MR IRVING: I have also translated the Funfach letters for your Lordship from the Dresden argument. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Wait until we get to the next document because I really do want to find out where, if anywhere, a document which I think both sides attach importance to is to be found. I am afraid I am not really understanding the footnote cross-references. Am I going to be provided with them or not? That was a question. MR RAMPTON: I am so sorry, I did not hear it as a question. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I will say again. I think that the document of July 2nd 1941 is quite an important document. I have seen extracts referred to in paragraph 421 of Browning and I have seen a footnote in Browning but, as far as I have been able to find out, there is only the German text and I am suggesting that, if there is an English text, I would like to see it. MR RAMPTON: All that the experts feel is important about this document is set out in their report. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I am not sure that can be entirely . P-147 right because we have had a great deal of evidence from the witness about it which is not contained in the report. That is not a criticism of the witness at all, but is this an important document? MR RAMPTON: I am sorry. I agree it is an important document but I have to say only in the respects which the witnesses, both of them, Longerich and Browning, have noticed in their reports, which to this effect, if I have understood what this discussion is about, to this effect. The hand of the SS was to be hidden in the instigation of pogroms. It is there, if I am on the right document. MR IRVING: My Lord I will prepare a translation of that document overnight, the relevant parts. MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you would. It does not appear that we are going to get it from the Defendants. MR RAMPTON: I will do it, my Lord. If it is a document that it turns out we rely on for some purpose beyond that which appears in the expert reports, of course, then we must have it translated. But if, for our purposes, it is sufficiently represented and translated in the expert reports, then I do have to say we cannot go through these bundles translating everything that anybody might want to look at. For one thing, it takes too long and for another it is very expensive. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Why I am being provided with wodges of paper consisting of pretty incomprehensible extracts, often not . P-148 giving any indication where they come from? I just do not follow the object of the exercise. MR RAMPTON: When the expert reports were prepared, we asked the experts, as one would expect, to prepare lists and bundles of the sources for what they say. MR JUSTICE GRAY: This is what we have all around the walls. MR RAMPTON: That is what this is. Should there be some important document which requires to be translated in full as we have done in some cases, why then we shall do it. But I do not see this as being such a document for my part ---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much. We will move on in that case. MR IRVING: Witness, we were discussing the question of whether the Nazis were just killing the able-bodied, military aged Jews whom they captured or whether the killing was being extended to include also the women and the children. We talked about a 50 year-old Jew as an example. Can I ask you to turn to -- there is a document dated August 6th 1941, which is referred to on page 15 of your report. It is footnote 42 is the document. A. Footnote 42, yes. Q. Page 20 of the little bundle, apparently. MR RAMPTON: Might I again, your Lordship, intervene here to explain exactly what I mean -- I do not mean to be troublesome or difficult -- in relation to this document. . P-149 I know this document, something about it. It is well-described in Professor Browning's report, what it is. The only bit which actually really matters is the piece of manuscript right at the end of the document which appears on the its third page. MR IRVING: Mr Rampton, do you mind if I tell his Lordship what matters about the document. MR RAMPTON: Well, if you want to tell his Lordship ---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, to be fair to him, I have been being critical and he is just trying to be helpful and show me what ---- MR IRVING: On its way to your Lordship is a translation of the entire document. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am going to put that into this tab of J. Do you include the manuscript, Mr Irving? MR IRVING: Yes, that is the final paragraph on the page. MR RAMPTON: In that case, I think we should have a copy of the translation. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Have you not got one? MR RAMPTON: No. MR IRVING: It was done at a relatively early hour this morning and I am afraid --- MR RAMPTON: That is not a criticism. I think we should have it is all I am saying. MR IRVING: Yes, but I will refer to the passages in the German text and ---- . P-150 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think I am going to keep this for the moment. MR RAMPTON: Yes. MR JUSTICE GRAY: But we will read it out to you. MR RAMPTON: Yes, of course. MR IRVING: Do you recognize this document? A. I want to make sure we are talking about the same one. This is the Stahlecker to Jager of August 6th 1941. Q. August 6th 1941. A. The [German - document not provided]. Q. Yes. A. Yes. This is a document that is Gerald Fleming sent me a copy of that he had gotten in Riga. Q. In Riga. MR RAMPTON: My Lord, that is page 15, paragraph 4.2.6 of Professor Browning report. MR IRVING: Are you familiar with an author Eser Guilis(?) A. Yes, the man who writes on the Final Solution in Latvia, Andrew Eser-Guilis. Q. This is his kind of area, is it not? A. It is an area he has written a book on, yes. Q. In this document, if I may summarize in advance, is it correct to say that quite clearly the people who are writing this draft are planning for the Jews to survive in gettoes, August 6th 1941? A. The civil administration is preparing a set of guidelines . P-151 that implies the ghettoization of Jews and that is to which Stahlecker is objecting, that they should not be dealt with here as in Poland, that here they are a greater danger. Q. Yes, and if you can turn to page 2 of the document, the second line of the second paragraph, I will translate it. Roughly it says: "This draft evidently plans the steps suggested under paragraph 5 for the umsiedlung of the Jews, the resettlement of the Jews, not as an immediate step, but is to be regarded as a later, gradual development"? A. That is the civil administration guidelines to which he is objecting, yes. Q. And the idea is that they are going to keep the Jews, if they fall into the Nazis hands, in separate camps, keeping the sexes apart so they are not going to get -- they are not going to increase? They are going to keep them alive but so that they will gradually die out, effectively, as a race. This was the plan in that? A. This is what he is referring to as the civil administration guidelines that he is criticising, that they envisage marking forced labour ghettoization and he is telling Jager that these are not acceptable. Q. And if you turn to the final page, there are four proposals listed there, one of which, the first one, is an almost 100 per cent immediate cleansing of the entire . P-152 Ostland of the Jews? A. Yes. Q. The second proposal is preventing them from procreating, from multiplying? A. Correct. Q. The third proposal is the possibility of the intensive exploitation of Jewish manpower which, of course, you cannot do if you are killing them. And the fourth one ---- A. You cannot do it by killing all, but you can do it if you separate out skilled workers and kill most.
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