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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day016.12

Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day016.12
Last-Modified: 2000/07/20

   Q.   Original records?
   A.   In terms of a broader project, I will often avail myself
        of printed documents because one covers much more
        territory.  For instance, the Goebbels diaries I would use

.          P-83

        in their printed form, and at some point the Frank diaries
        I have used in printed form, but when they referred in
        there to things they did not include, and it is important
        to me, then I go to the microfilms and look at the
        that they have omitted.  Again, an historian makes
        judgments about how best to spend the time.
   Q.   Hold it there for a
minute.  You refer to the diaries of
        Hans Frank.  Hans Frank, of course, at a
conference in
        Cracau in December 1941, I think it was ----
   A.   December 16th.
   Q.   --- December 16th, he
makes a pretty lurid statement
        about, "What do the people in Berlin think we are
        We say liquidate them yourselves".  Do you
remember that
        passage roughly?
   A.   I certainly remember that
   Q.   Yes.  Was there something
left out of that passage?  There
        was three dots in the middle of that passage.
There is no
        need to look it up.  You say things were left out
of the
        printed texts?
   A.   No, in the published ----
   Q.   Published version?
   A.   --- published version,
they take blocks of things and then
        they will have in brackets, they will say, "At
        meeting to discuss these topics" or something of
   Q.   Yes.  Did they leave
things out in a tendentious way, do

.          P-84

        you think?
   A.   Usually, they leave out
topics they think were not of
        general importance.  For instance, when I was
looking at
        the issue of the public health officials in the
        government and the editors, apparently, made a
        that was not a topic of general interest, it was a
        particular interest of mine, so then I went to the
        microfilms and read a section in the original
because it
        was a topic ----
   Q.   We are at the mercy ----
   A.   --- that was important to
   Q.   --- of our editors, are we
   A.   No.  No editor has told me
I could not include something.
   Q.   But, I mean, in a volume
like that of printed documents,
        the editor has to have very comprehensive
knowledge to be
        able to make the right choices of what to leave in
        what to take out?
   A.   A bad editor would
certainly render a collection of
        documents much less worthwhile than a good editor.
   Q.   Yes.  Can we now turn to
paragraph 4.5?  This brings us to
        the interesting document, my Lord, of August 1st
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think we ought to look at
that document, if
        I may suggest it?
   MR RAMPTON:  Your Lordship has got ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I know where it is.  I have
just been
        looking.  It is the back of L, is it not?

.          P-85

   MR RAMPTON:  There is a file.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Has Mr Irving got the clip
that you are
        referring to?
   MR IRVING:  I have footnote 6 here which is the
printed version
        of it.
   MR RAMPTON:  We have taken the original out of
Dr Longerich
        documents and put it in here.  It is 19A in this
file at
        page ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I have it.
   MR RAMPTON:  --- 19A.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, have you got this?
It is probably
        quite useful to use this.
   MR IRVING:  I am looking to see how original it
is.   I have
        sent a fax to Germany last night to ask for the
        facsimile, but I do not think they are going to co-
        with me.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  This is as good as we have got
at the
        moment.  It is Abschrift but we have not got
        else, have we?.
   MR RAMPTON:  The printed one is 19, my Lord.
   MR IRVING:  This is a pretty important document.
We have all
        agreed in this courtroom, I think.  This is August
        1941, Muller to the Einsatzgruppen?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   A, B, C and D.  (To the
witness):  Can you translate the
        line "betrifft"?

.          P-86

   A.   Concerning or subject?
   Q.   Yes.  Just translate that
line, please.
   A.  "The procuring of visual
   Q.  "The procuring of visual
materials".  I will translate the
        rest of the paragraph and interrupt me if you
        disagree.  "The Fuhrer is to be provided with or
to be,
        there are to be submitted to the Fuhrer from here
on a
        current basis reports on the work of the
Einsatzgruppen in
        the East.  For this purpose, particularly
        visual materials like photographs, placards,
leaflets and
        other documents are needed.  In so far as such
        falls into your hands or can be obtained, I ask it
to be
        transferred to here as rapidly as possible."
                  Would you read that as referring
specifically to
        the killing operations of the Einsatzgruppen?
   A.   I would say the first
sentence refers to the current
        reports on the work of the Einsatzgruppen, and I
think the
        likeliest, most plausible, interpretation is that
        referring to the Einsatzgruppen reports, and then
for the
        purpose, in a sense, of adding something to that,
it would
        be especially interesting to get visual material.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Of people being shot?
   A.   Nothing -- pardon?
   Q.   Of people being shot?
   A.   No.  No, it says ----
   Q.   Then what?

.          P-87

   A.   It says want photos,
   Q.   Of what though?
   MR IRVING:  Other documents?
   A.   Yes, they want documents,
they want leaflets, they want
        placards.  They do not say pictures of what,
        relating to what the Einsatzgruppen are doing,
        or captured Soviet pictures.  We do not know.
   Q.   But the reference of this
document, the subject matter, is
        visual materials
   A.   But "in connection", that
is for the purpose of keeping of
        the regular reports going to the Fuhrer, they
would like
         -- in a sense, it implies already there is an
        process of the Fuhrer receiving reports and now
they want,
        to sweeten that, they want visual aids to be
added.  My
        feeling is this implies a process already underway
        which they now wish to add visual materials as
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  But the first time it says ---
   A.   It does not say, "You
shall begin to send reports to the
        Fuhrer".  It says, "The Fuhrer is", you know ----
   Q.  "Von hier", though, does
that not rather suggest it is
        something that is starting up afresh?
   A.   Well, from Berlin, it says
the "Fuhrer von hier" which
        means, of course, Berlin.
   Q.   It means "physical place".
I thought it meant "from here
   A.   No, it is not "from here
on".  It is "out from here",

.          P-88

        meaning Heydrich's office in Berlin.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, I am with you, I follow.
   MR IRVING:  My contention is (and correct me if
I am wrong)
        that earlier today we established that the
        had several tasks of which killing was one, as
        in their reports?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   One paragraph was the
killing and the other paragraphs
        were the other tasks that they were involved in.
        tasks included the collection of intelligence
        and any material like that?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   And if this message from
Muller to the Einsatzgruppen
        commanders, A, B, C and D, simply says,
"Concerning visual
        materials, the Fuhrer is interested in the tasks
of the
        Einsatzgruppen, he wants to be kept up-to-date on
        Please supply him with pictures, photographs,
        documents and the rest", am I not right in
suggesting that
        this is not referring solely to the killing or
        even to the killing at all?
   A.   It is referring to the
work of the Ensatzgruppen and,
        therefore, it does not exclude the killing, but it
        not imply the killing is the only thing that is
   Q.   Yes.
   A.   But, basically, it is
inclusive if it says the work of the

.          P-89

        Einsatzgruppen and, therefore, killing would be
among the
        things that would be reported on a regular basis
to him.
   Q.   Well, we have another
clue, Professor.  There is a lot of
        documents in this bundle, and I am not going to
ask you to
        look through them all, but would you like to
hazard a
        guess on the basis of your expert knowledge at the
        security classification of all the documents
        with the Aktion Reinhardt or with the
        programmes?  Would they be Verteilisch
(Confidential) or
        Geheim (Secret) or Geheim Rasara(?) (Top State
   A.   I think some are Geheim --
are GOS, but there are, they
        vary and I think there are documents that do not
        classification as well.
   Q.   Would you look at the
classification on this document and
        tell us what classification it is?
   A.   "Geheim".
   Q.   In other words, a very
modest security rating?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Not a security rating you
would associate with a document
        concerned with the Final Solution?
   A.   Well, given that the
contents going out, that there is
        nothing in here that stipulates, as you say, "Give
us the
        reports and the photos of killings", there is
nothing in
        the document that would require, as far as I can
see, even
        a "secret".
   Q.   Except that even
intelligence matters would normally rate

.          P-90

        a security rating of secret anyway, would they
not, like
        collecting documents and things like that, am I
   A.   If there is a tendency to
overclassify, someone could
        possibly stamp that on even though, as far as I
can see,
        looking at this, there is no reason to classify
        document at all.
   Q.   In other words, it is a
document of janitorial level.
   A.   No.  It is a document that
does not reveal anything that
        if it were seen by others would pose any problem.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  The Germans worked like that,
did they, or
        the Nazis worked like that?  If the ultimate topic
        going to be secret, they did not introduce the
        security classification from day 1?  Do you follow
        question I am putting because I suspect maybe here
        might operate differently, I do not know.
   A.   I simply do not know
whether individual documents in the
        same file will ----
   Q.   That is my point.
   A.   --- have different, will
have varying ones and, of course,
        we do not...
   MR IRVING:  Professor, can I ask you to look at
the letter
        register number or the file number just under the
        "Eichzigereichts auf Kampt" ----
   A.   Yes.

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