Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day016.12 Last-Modified: 2000/07/20 Q. Original records? A. In terms of a broader project, I will often avail myself of printed documents because one covers much more territory. For instance, the Goebbels diaries I would use . P-83 in their printed form, and at some point the Frank diaries I have used in printed form, but when they referred in there to things they did not include, and it is important to me, then I go to the microfilms and look at the section that they have omitted. Again, an historian makes judgments about how best to spend the time. Q. Hold it there for a minute. You refer to the diaries of Hans Frank. Hans Frank, of course, at a conference in Cracau in December 1941, I think it was ---- A. December 16th. Q. --- December 16th, he makes a pretty lurid statement about, "What do the people in Berlin think we are doing? We say liquidate them yourselves". Do you remember that passage roughly? A. I certainly remember that passage. Q. Yes. Was there something left out of that passage? There was three dots in the middle of that passage. There is no need to look it up. You say things were left out of the printed texts? A. No, in the published ---- Q. Published version? A. --- published version, they take blocks of things and then they will have in brackets, they will say, "At this meeting to discuss these topics" or something of that sort. Q. Yes. Did they leave things out in a tendentious way, do . P-84 you think? A. Usually, they leave out topics they think were not of general importance. For instance, when I was looking at the issue of the public health officials in the general government and the editors, apparently, made a decision that was not a topic of general interest, it was a particular interest of mine, so then I went to the microfilms and read a section in the original because it was a topic ---- Q. We are at the mercy ---- A. --- that was important to me. Q. --- of our editors, are we not? A. No. No editor has told me I could not include something. Q. But, I mean, in a volume like that of printed documents, the editor has to have very comprehensive knowledge to be able to make the right choices of what to leave in and what to take out? A. A bad editor would certainly render a collection of documents much less worthwhile than a good editor. Q. Yes. Can we now turn to paragraph 4.5? This brings us to the interesting document, my Lord, of August 1st 1941? MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think we ought to look at that document, if I may suggest it? MR RAMPTON: Your Lordship has got ---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: I know where it is. I have just been looking. It is the back of L, is it not? . P-85 MR RAMPTON: There is a file. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Has Mr Irving got the clip that you are referring to? MR IRVING: I have footnote 6 here which is the printed version of it. MR RAMPTON: We have taken the original out of Dr Longerich documents and put it in here. It is 19A in this file at page ---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I have it. MR RAMPTON: --- 19A. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, have you got this? It is probably quite useful to use this. MR IRVING: I am looking to see how original it is. I have sent a fax to Germany last night to ask for the original facsimile, but I do not think they are going to co- operate with me. MR JUSTICE GRAY: This is as good as we have got at the moment. It is Abschrift but we have not got anything else, have we?. MR RAMPTON: The printed one is 19, my Lord. MR IRVING: This is a pretty important document. We have all agreed in this courtroom, I think. This is August 1st 1941, Muller to the Einsatzgruppen? A. Yes. Q. A, B, C and D. (To the witness): Can you translate the line "betrifft"? . P-86 A. Concerning or subject? Q. Yes. Just translate that line, please. A. "The procuring of visual materials". Q. "The procuring of visual materials". I will translate the rest of the paragraph and interrupt me if you disagree. "The Fuhrer is to be provided with or to be, there are to be submitted to the Fuhrer from here on a current basis reports on the work of the Einsatzgruppen in the East. For this purpose, particularly interesting visual materials like photographs, placards, leaflets and other documents are needed. In so far as such material falls into your hands or can be obtained, I ask it to be transferred to here as rapidly as possible." Would you read that as referring specifically to the killing operations of the Einsatzgruppen? A. I would say the first sentence refers to the current reports on the work of the Einsatzgruppen, and I think the likeliest, most plausible, interpretation is that is referring to the Einsatzgruppen reports, and then for the purpose, in a sense, of adding something to that, it would be especially interesting to get visual material. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Of people being shot? A. Nothing -- pardon? Q. Of people being shot? A. No. No, it says ---- Q. Then what? . P-87 A. It says want photos, placards. Q. Of what though? MR IRVING: Other documents? A. Yes, they want documents, they want leaflets, they want placards. They do not say pictures of what, pictures relating to what the Einsatzgruppen are doing, presumably, or captured Soviet pictures. We do not know. Q. But the reference of this document, the subject matter, is visual materials A. But "in connection", that is for the purpose of keeping of the regular reports going to the Fuhrer, they would like -- in a sense, it implies already there is an ongoing process of the Fuhrer receiving reports and now they want, to sweeten that, they want visual aids to be added. My feeling is this implies a process already underway to which they now wish to add visual materials as well. MR JUSTICE GRAY: But the first time it says --- - A. It does not say, "You shall begin to send reports to the Fuhrer". It says, "The Fuhrer is", you know ---- Q. "Von hier", though, does that not rather suggest it is something that is starting up afresh? A. Well, from Berlin, it says the "Fuhrer von hier" which means, of course, Berlin. Q. It means "physical place". I thought it meant "from here on"? A. No, it is not "from here on". It is "out from here", . P-88 meaning Heydrich's office in Berlin. MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I am with you, I follow. MR IRVING: My contention is (and correct me if I am wrong) that earlier today we established that the Einsatzgruppen had several tasks of which killing was one, as indicated in their reports? A. Yes. Q. One paragraph was the killing and the other paragraphs were the other tasks that they were involved in. Other tasks included the collection of intelligence documents and any material like that? A. Yes. Q. And if this message from Muller to the Einsatzgruppen commanders, A, B, C and D, simply says, "Concerning visual materials, the Fuhrer is interested in the tasks of the Einsatzgruppen, he wants to be kept up-to-date on them. Please supply him with pictures, photographs, captured documents and the rest", am I not right in suggesting that this is not referring solely to the killing or possibly even to the killing at all? A. It is referring to the work of the Ensatzgruppen and, therefore, it does not exclude the killing, but it does not imply the killing is the only thing that is being reported. Q. Yes. A. But, basically, it is inclusive if it says the work of the . P-89 Einsatzgruppen and, therefore, killing would be among the things that would be reported on a regular basis to him. Q. Well, we have another clue, Professor. There is a lot of documents in this bundle, and I am not going to ask you to look through them all, but would you like to hazard a guess on the basis of your expert knowledge at the security classification of all the documents connected with the Aktion Reinhardt or with the extermination programmes? Would they be Verteilisch (Confidential) or Geheim (Secret) or Geheim Rasara(?) (Top State Secret)? A. I think some are Geheim -- are GOS, but there are, they vary and I think there are documents that do not have classification as well. Q. Would you look at the classification on this document and tell us what classification it is? A. "Geheim". Q. In other words, a very modest security rating? A. Yes. Q. Not a security rating you would associate with a document concerned with the Final Solution? A. Well, given that the contents going out, that there is nothing in here that stipulates, as you say, "Give us the reports and the photos of killings", there is nothing in the document that would require, as far as I can see, even a "secret". Q. Except that even intelligence matters would normally rate . P-90 a security rating of secret anyway, would they not, like collecting documents and things like that, am I right? A. If there is a tendency to overclassify, someone could possibly stamp that on even though, as far as I can see, looking at this, there is no reason to classify the document at all. Q. In other words, it is a document of janitorial level. A. No. It is a document that does not reveal anything that if it were seen by others would pose any problem. MR JUSTICE GRAY: The Germans worked like that, did they, or the Nazis worked like that? If the ultimate topic was going to be secret, they did not introduce the higher security classification from day 1? Do you follow the question I am putting because I suspect maybe here we might operate differently, I do not know. A. I simply do not know whether individual documents in the same file will ---- Q. That is my point. A. --- have different, will have varying ones and, of course, we do not... MR IRVING: Professor, can I ask you to look at the letter register number or the file number just under the word "Eichzigereichts auf Kampt" ---- A. Yes.
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