Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day014.03 Last-Modified: 2000/07/20 Q. Again, I have to ask the question this way. Would it surprise you to hear that the number is way out of sequence by several weeks? A. In general, if you look at the files -- I am not completely surprised but the thing is, the way the files were created, the files quite often have things not in sequence, even in the Auschwitz archive. So it is very . P-18 difficult sometimes to see. Normally what happens is a file is built up, that the earliest documents are at the back and then, of course, as new documents come in, the documents ultimately get their final order. Q. But you agree that all the other documents, in these ten you have provided, the numbers are in serial sequence? A. In serial sequence? Q. I have just checked them and they are, in so far as they are part of the same series? MR JUSTICE GRAY: They are put together for the purposes of this clip. MR IRVING: I appreciate that, my Lord. A. I just picked up some things from a pack I had last night. I just was going through what I had in my hand. Q. The very last question is this. Was Jahrling an SS Sturmbannfuhrer? A. I think Jahrling was actually a Zivilarbeiter. Q. Why is he on the second page of this document signing as an SS Sturmbannfuhrer, the one that has been provided? A. It seems that the original document was obviously meant to be signed by Jahrling, but this is an abschrift and he initialled this thing. Whatever the abschrift was made of, whatever copy the abschrift was made of, had his initials on it and this happens quite often. Since the original signed copy went to Kammler, which was signed by Bischoff, then quite often there would be a little -- one . P-19 of the other people would just ---- Q. Professor van Pelt, I think you have misunderstood my question. Would you look at page 2, please? A. Yes. I see Jahrling, yes. Q. It appears to have been signed three lines from the bottom Gezeichnet Jahrling SS Sturmbannfuhrer. A. It says "Zentralbauleitung der Waffen SS und Polizei" on the top, which means this is signed by the leader, the chief architect which was SS Sturmbannfuhrer Bischoff at the time, but the copy which was available to the person who wrote the Asbchrift must have had Jahrling's signature on it, which is something which happens quite often, that you see another signature than Bischoff's in actually the copies which are in the archive. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Does "gezeichnet" actually mean "signed". MR IRVING: Yes. A. If means "signed" here, but I presume that this person who was writing this Asbchrift had in some way ---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: I follow what you are saying. MR IRVING: Is it not correct civil service procedure to put the letters "iA" if you are signing on behalf of someone? A. Yes, bit I do not think we are here in a kind of typical Civil Service condition. We have seen that people are all over the place in the way they are actually formatting these documents. MR IRVING: My Lord, I have no further questions. . P-20 MR RAMPTON: Well, sorry, I do have some by way of re-examination. MR JUSTICE GRAY: You may want some re-examination. < Re-examined by MR RAMPTON, QC Q. Can we take that last point first? Can you take page 1, please? In the bottom left-hand corner of the page is a column what looks a bit like names? MR IRVING: It is a distribution list. MR RAMPTON: Thank you, Mr Irving, but I am asking the witness questions. "Verteiler", do you see that? A. Yes. Q. And the last name on that might be "Jahrling", might it? A. Yes, that is Jahrling. So Jahrling got a copy of this letter. MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is the point you have made, that is the only indication of who signed it available to the person who did the Auschwitz. So they put "gezeichnet" by Jahrling? A. Yes. MR RAMPTON: Yes. Do you notice, please on page 4 a signature over a Sturmbannfuhrer? A. Yes. Q. Whose signature is that? A. That is Bischoff's signature. Q. What about page 7 over the same word Sturmbannfuhrer? A. That is not Bischoff's signature, but it was ---- . P-21 Q. Somebody has written "signed Bischoff"? A. Yes, what we see here is we see that there is a little note on the lower corner, the lower on page 7, it says Fur die Richtigkeit der Asbchrift, which says, this is Pollock, I think it is Pollock, SS Untersturmfuhrer, and so Pollock now has put the name of Bischoff, signed in his own handwriting Bischoff's name, since we are dealing here with an Asbchrift. So in some way Pollock has done by hand what in some way occurred in page No. 2 which is typed. Q. There is only one other thing I need to ask you about and it is this. Mr Irving seems to take the point, if I have understood it, that if the reference number is typed rather than handwritten, one must expect to find the word "Abschrift" on top of the document. Can you look at page 3? Is there "Abschrift" on top of the document? A. No, that not Abschrift. Q. And is the reference number typed or handwritten? A. The reference number is typed. Q. And at page 6 we see Abschrift and a typed reference number, but what about page 10? A. Page 10, it was typed and it was corrected by hand. Q. And there is no Abschrift on top of it? A. No, there is no Abschrift. MR IRVING: It is not actually a letter register number there; it is the file number. . P-22 A. [German]. MR RAMPTON: Well, this is the third or fourth example so perhaps the point is made. What about page 13? A. Page 13, it is typed. Q. It is typed and there is no "Abschrift" on top of it? A. Yes. MR RAMPTON: Yes, thank you. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can I ask you the same question, Professor, that I asked you when you gave evidence yesterday which is whether the points that have been put to you this morning raise something of a doubt in your mind about the authenticity of this document? A. No, it does not. Q. The point about the year not being included, is there anything in that? A. I think it is a good observation, but what we see also here, you see if we look at this Moscow, this Moscow document, what we see that the numbers were actually typed in later. It seems to be that there is a -- it is a slightly different - also when we look at the persons, it seems they may made up first the letter and that ultimately they were -- this letter was drafted and the numbers were put in after some kind of final consultation. It is a very marked difference with the second copy with Domburg. It seems to be that the final numbering, the number, was brought in later and I can . P-23 quite imagine that there was a slip occurred at that moment. MR IRVING: May I enquire on what basis you say that the numbers were typed in later? A. It seems that if we look at the way, if we look at, for example, No. 340 personen, the 340 seems to be almost done slightly sharper than "persona". If we can compare that to 1943 on top, I do not know, I mean, but it seems to be that it is -- that my sense would be that they were added later, that there was a first draft made, and especially if we look at the "31550/" in the brieftagebuch number, again the slash seems to come very close to the zero, almost as if they put it back in the typewriter and put in the numbers. Now, it is also possible, of course, that they had cleaned their numbers. You know, these typewriters, these manual typewriters, they would get very messy at a certain moment and especially as in Auschwitz they were reusing the same, how do you call it, ribbon constantly because there was a great lack of it. They get very smudgy at a certain moment, and also the letters get very smudgy, so maybe they had cleaned the numbers to be absolutely certain that these numbers would be clear. I cannot say. But my sense would be, if you look at the brieftagebuch number, that it is possible that they were, that it was added later, also because it goes left of the . P-24 original, how do you call it ---- MR IRVING: The margin. A. The margin, and in the other things it seems to be in generally on the margin. So that also indicates that it was generally added later. So, you know, you cannot be absolutely sure about it. But, it seems to be that it was not regular that the person was typing that heading and at that moment was actually putting on all the information. So since the information was put in later, maybe it is simply the 43 slipped. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes? A. But it is speculation. We cannot be certain about it. Q. Thank you very much. Can I give you back your original? I am ashamed to say I have made a slight mark on it, not realising. A. You can keep it if you want because I have a copy now. Q. But this is the original? A. This is the original copy from Auschwitz. That is why it is stamped. If you want to keep it, since it has a stamp on it? Q. All right. Thank you. Can I say one or more thing? On the back of it, of that copy you have, actually has the actual file in which it is. It says BW34. It is on the back, so that is the actual file in which that document can be found. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much. . P-25 (The witness stood down) MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Rampton, where shall I put this clip? MR RAMPTON: In tab 4 of K2, the second Auschwitz file. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Immediately after page 49? MR RAMPTON: I would think so. In due course I am going to sort mine into chronological order. MR JUSTICE GRAY: So further cross-examination of Mr Irving now? MR RAMPTON: Yes. (MR DAVID IRVING, recalled. Cross-Examined by MR RAMPTON, QC, continued.) A. I have two things which I wish to say here from the box, my Lord, if I may? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. A. One goes to yesterday, the letter, you remember, from the man who had been in an Aufraumungs Kommando, do you remember, and who had had knowledge of 30,000 records of 30,000 in Dresden. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Dresden, yes? A. Back on Dresden. I just want to draw attention to the fact that the letter was dated sometime in 1965, four years after the book was written. That is a reference to page 538 of the Evans report. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, thank you. A. My Lord, I provided to your Lordship a copy of the actual order of the day which was missing from the bundle, . P-26 and ---- Q. The Tagesbefehl? A. That is right, and I have provided you with an English translation of it. Q. Thank you very much. A. And in view of the fact that the Defence, at least in their catalogue, relied on a letter that Mr Kimber wrote to me, which I complained of as being prejudicial, I have put in the clip for your Lordship the reply that I sent to him. Q. Just pause a moment. The Tagesbefehl we ought to put into... A. It does not really add or subtract anything from the case, but your Lordship should really have a copy of the document we spent most of yesterday talking about. Q. I quite agree. Mr Rampton, where would it go? MR RAMPTON: This ... MR JUSTICE GRAY: This is the genuine one? A. No, my Lord. This was the fake one. MR RAMPTON: If you look on the second page, my Lord, you will see it has the ---- A. I do not know whether there actually ever was a genuine one. I telephoned with Mr Bergander in Berlin this morning, and he said that the man who gave him the so-called genuine one had copies of both. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think page 14A, is that right? . P-27 A. The other only little bundle I have gave your Lordship this morning was ---- Q. Just pause a moment, and let us get this into the right place. Is that right? It is a question of where it goes in the chronological sequence otherwise it gets lost. Come on, we are wasting time. MR RAMPTON: My Lord, I have not got my Dresden file here so I am afraid I cannot help. MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, can Miss Rogers find out where it should go? MR RAMPTON: Can we sort it out? A. The only other thing I gave your Lordship was just five photographs of the Goebbels diary so you know what we are talking about when we come on to the Goebbels matter. That is the boxes and so on that they came in. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much. MR RAMPTON (To the witness): Mr Irving, Hans Almeyer, I think you first discovered him in June 1992? A. I think it was June 2nd 1992, yes.
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