Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day013.03 Last-Modified: 2000/07/20 Q. If somebody oscillates between 2.8 million and 1.1 million . P-18 under oath, how can you place any reliance whatsoever on his other figures? A. I think that there is the issue of how do you calculate the figure? There is one thing. He had no documents in front of him because no record was kept. He at a certain moment tries to reconstruct without having any figures, and of course we must remember that Hoess was, in the crucial time of the camp's history, Hungarian, actually late 43, he was not any more Kommandant of Auschwitz. He left Auschwitz. He was attached to the inspectorate in Oranienburg. So he only came back later to Auschwitz. Q. We are only talking about the reliability of his figures. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, we have to confine this. We cannot have an open ended further cross-examination. Confine it to the authenticity of the document. MR IRVING: That did go to the authenticity because he relied on Hoess as a source of statistical evidence, my Lord. Secondly, is it correct that the version of this document which is in the Auschwitz State museum was provided to them by the East German communist authorities? In other words, not the other way round, as one would expect? A. Yes. Q. Thank you. A. The version in Auschwitz, but this is the Moscow version, so we are talking here about the Moscow document. It is a different document. It is a different object, so to . P-19 speak. The object means the actual sheet of paper which came from East Germany. Q. The final question is on the question of why the matter has only just recently been raised. Is it not correct to say that the Moscow archives have only become available for purposes of comparison over the last ten years or so? A. Yes, that is true. MR IRVING: Thank you very much. I have no further questions, my Lord. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much, Professor. < (The witness stood down) MR IRVING: Your Lordship may have considered that a rather useless exercise but, as it is such a crucial document, I thought that we ought to examine it in greater detail. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I personally think that the issue of authenticity of this document is important for the purposes of this trial. MR IRVING: It is almost pivotal, along with the roof. Thank you very much. MR RAMPTON: I certainly do not agree that it is pivotal. It may be an important document in some senses. MR JUSTICE GRAY: The challenge to it may be important. MR RAMPTON: Yes, absolutely. If I feel the need to meet that challenge beyond what the Professor has said in the witness box, I will do so. MR JUSTICE GRAY: The Moscow archive presumably can be, as it . P-20 were, consulted to see if the document is there. MR RAMPTON: Oh, yes, but, if it was in the Vienna trial in 1971, I do not know that the Moscow archives have a lot to do with it. MR JUSTICE GRAY: What now? Mr Irving back into the box? MR RAMPTON: Shall I give your Lordship a little plan? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Before you do, can I say something which I actually said yesterday? I think it became called L2, I think my L2 has gone back to you, but, in trying to go through yesterday evening, it really is impossible for me to follow it in the transcript when all I have is German documents, some of which have been partly translated in odd bits of Professor Evans' report. It is a nightmare exercise. MR RAMPTON: It will not surprise your Lordship to be told that I took that on board. What I am going to do today will involve no reference to German documents by me. It will consist of a document prepared with, I have to say, the most extraordinary skill and expedition by Miss Rogers in relation to Dresden. There is a file of Dresden documents. They are mostly in English. I shall not make reference to them myself, because they have been summarized in the little document that Miss Rogers has prepared. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Good. MR RAMPTON: Contrary to my feeling yesterday evening, I am . P-21 going to go to four topics in the aftermath of Reichskristallnacht, but I am going to do those, unless again I am pushed by Mr Irving to the German, exclusively from Professor Evans' report. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do think that is easier. Can I at the same time make this enquiry? It is important that we are clear for later on. Looking at Kristallnacht, not the aftermath of Kristallnacht, there are several points made in Evans and Longerich, I think, which I do not think you cross-examine to specifically. It is not a criticism obviously, but does that mean they have gone out of the case, or what? MR RAMPTON: It is very difficult. I am very conscious of the amount of time that this case could take. That means I am also conscious of the amount of money it could cost my clients, never mind court time and the time of all the people involved. I have taken the view, right or wrong, that, if I have three or four, or maybe two or three, or even five or six, dead cert winners, to use a colloquialism, in any particular topic, I am not going to spend a lot of time having argy-bargy about minor points with Mr Irving. I have one more what I regard as dead cert winner to finish which is this business about ND3052 or ND3051 because I have chased that it and I know the answer. But if your Lordship should take the view at the end of the cross-examination of my expert witnesses that . P-22 certain points have gone from the case, well, why then they have gone, but if Mr Irving should take up with my expert witnesses things I have not cross-examined him about, why, then they will come back into the arena. MR JUSTICE GRAY: But at the moment they are not in the arena. MR RAMPTON: No. MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is rather what I thought, but I think it is quite important to be clear about it. MR RAMPTON: If I have missed something out, something important, I miss something important and that is just too bad. But there has to be a sense of proportion in all of this, in my belief. MR JUSTICE GRAY: It might be something -- I have not got them in mind now -- there are some points that I think Evans attaches importance to on Reichskristallnacht which maybe we have not really touched on. MR RAMPTON: I agree there are some things in relation to eyewitness testimony. I am as mistrustful of that in general as is Mr Irving, and I prefer the original documents, and that is what I did yesterday. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. MR RAMPTON: I am going back to one other original document in a moment. MR IRVING: I thought there was going to be a complex on the Adjutants we were going to hear about. MR RAMPTON: There may be something about the Adjutants along . P-23 down the road, but I have not got to that yet. It is a separate topic. MR JUSTICE GRAY: That clears the air a bit. MR RAMPTON: I have not given thought to what, if any, Adjutants I am interested in. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, if you go back we are starting off now on Dresden. MR RAMPTON: No. I am going to finish Reichskristallnacht and then I shall go to Dresden. < MR DAVID IRVING recalled. < Cross-Examined by MR RAMPTON, QC, continued. Q. Your Lordship and the witness will need a document which we dug out yesterday. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I will need my L2 back too, will I not? MR RAMPTON: Yes, I do not know where it has gone. (To the witness): Mr Irving, can you please go back to your Goebbels book at page 276? At the bottom of that page we saw yesterday, we are going to read it again, you write: "What of Himmler and Hitler? Both were totally unaware of what Goebbels had done until the synagogue next to Munich's Four Seasons Hotel was set on fire around 1k a.m. Heydrich, Himmler's national chief of police, was relaxing down in the hotel bar, he hurried up to Himmler's room, then telexed instructions to all police authorities to restore law and order, protect Jews and Jewish property, and halt any ongoing incidents." You give us . P-24 the reference No. 43, you give us the reference for that on page 613, ND3052-PS? A. Yes. Q. Now please look at the document I have just handed in. A. Well, in fact, there are two sources there. I have also referenced Karl Wolff. Q. Will you please look at the document I have just handed in? A. Yes. Q. That is ---- A. 3052 -- yes, there is a mistake in the number. Q. You have mistaken the number? A. Yes. Q. Professor Evans is right? A. Yes. Q. The correct number is 3051, is it not? A. It is probably 3051. There may be another one, but this is clearly the wrong one, but I have also referenced Karl Wolff as my source. Q. Can we please look then at what Professors Evans used as the translation of the key part of 3051 at the top? A. Which, of course, I have not referenced. Q. No, you have not. But, Mr Irving, I suggest that you had it in front of you and you simply made a slip of the pen (as we all can) and called the document 3052 when, in fact, it was 3051. . P-25 A. You may be right, but you may be wrong. MR JUSTICE GRAY: When you say "you may be wrong", you mean there is another document very similar to 3051 which you did in have in front of you? A. My Lord, note 43 also refers to Karl Wolff which is a source which I also used. Q. That is another matter. A. I would have to look and see what Karl Wolff said which may very well be the source of that. MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving, forget Karl Wolff. You have given ---- A. No, because -- I am not going to forget him because he is given in the footnote 43. Q. Mr Irving, you have given 3052 as the reference? A. As one of the references. Q. That is wrong, as you can plainly see from the document? A. Yes. Q. It follows, does it not ---- A. It was another document. Q. --- that the overlying probability is that you meant 3051 which is, indeed, a telex from Heydrich at 1.20 a.m. on 10th November? A. That is one telex from him at 1.20 yes, but if ---- Q. Wait, Mr Irving. A. --- if you look at the time scale, if you look at the time scale, these instructions I am referring to are unlikely to have got into a telex machine at 1. 20 a.m. It would . P-26 be closer to 2 a.m. that things like that went out, by the time he has got back to police headquarters. MR JUSTICE GRAY: You say he "hurried up to Himmler's room"? A. Yes, but they would not have had a telex machine in Himmler's hotel room, my Lord. He would have had to go to the local Gestapo headquarters or telephone instruction for local headquarters and tell them to type a telex and get this kind of thing out. Q. So your suggestion is there is another telex from Heydrich? A. Another source. I am not suggesting it is another telex. I am suggesting it is another source and I have referenced there Karl Wolff. MR RAMPTON: Let us suppose for a moment that a three year- old child will not buy that story, Mr Irving, and compare what 301 says of what you wrote in the text, may we? A. Well, shall we do that? Q. Yes, let us look at the top of 263 of Professor Evans' report. The German is printed at the bottom. So if you want to read the German first, please do. A. "On Himmler's instructions, they were to be sure some restrictions placed on the action", is that correct on the foot of page 262? Q. Yes. That is absolutely right. Now you see what they are on page 263. A. Yes, I have read that. . P-27 Q. Now tell me what foundation that provides for your assertion that Heydrich's telex was "to protect Jews and Jewish property and halt any ongoing incidents". A. Well, clearly, this is a different message I am referring to. Q. No, Mr Irving. Clearly, you have deliberately misrepresented the effect of this telex from Heydrich. A. No, Mr Rampton. You are looking at a different message, and you are saying, "This does not look like the one you are quoting" which is just what I am saying. You are right. It is not the one I am quoting. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Where is what you call 3052? Where physically is it? A. My Lord, they have had complete access to all my files and we do not know which signals they have put in and which they have not put in.
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