Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day011.14
Last-Modified: 2000/07/20

   MR IRVING:  That is correct?
   A.   No. 8 I see four smudges right there.
   MR IRVING:  Four smudges on 3, but not on 2?
   A.   But on No. 2 I do not know what -- if they had made...
   Q.   Did they --
   A.   The smudges are on others, I do not know exactly what were
        the conditions -- it seems to be that there is a line of smudges.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes --
   A.   -- a line of smudges.
   MR IRVING:  Mr Rampton has objections to make.
   MR RAMPTON:  I do not have an objection, I have an observation
        to make.  It is perhaps not valuable to ask the witness
        what he can see.  We can all look at them. I could give

.          P-119

        evidence what I can see in these photographs.
   MR IRVING:  But the court needs to hear it.
   MR RAMPTON:  I happen to agree with the Professor that one can
        see the smudges very clearly, but it is a matter for your
        Lordship.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, that may be but since we have had a lot
        of evidence about smudges I do not see there is any harm
        in Professor van Pelt being asked what he thinks one can
        see.
   MR RAMPTON:   All I am suggesting is it makes not in the end
        any difference what this witness can see in these
        photographs.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  He might suddenly say; "gosh, I cannot see
        any smudges at all, I must be wrong".
   MR RAMPTON:  It would not matter if he did say that, if I can
        see them and your Lordship can see them.
   MR IRVING:  I appreciate the tactical reason for such
        interruptions but I would be grateful if you left them
        until the end of the --
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, it has not succeeded.
   MR IRVING:  Professor, you suggested that the building on the
        left in picture No. 8 might have already been partially
        dismantled?
   A.   -- no, No. 7 I said, this was about in No. 7 but --
   Q.   Very well.
   A.   -- it is difficult exactly to see again, we are looking

.          P-120

        here at dots, you know, this is reproduced.
   Q.   We have gone on to No. 8 now.  You can see the dots on the
        right one, which suggests that the definition of the
        picture would be adequate to see dots on crematorium No. 2
        and yet there are no such dots visible?
   A.   There is a whole line visible.
   Q.   Not on crematorium No. 2?
   A.   I am sorry?
   Q.   Not on crematorium No. 2.
   A.   On crematorium No. 2 there seem to be -- I do not exactly
        know if that is the line which is the edge of the gas
        chamber or a line on top, you know, if that is -- if the
        two parallel lines are the edges of the kind of earth bank
        on top of the gas chamber -- I do not know there are some
        white smudges in the middle there.  I mean, his Lordship
        can see that as well, I presume.
   Q.   Can I suggest you now move on to No. 10.  No. 9, my Lord,
        is a photograph taken by the German Air Force after the
        Russians occupied Auschwitz.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No. 9 or 10?
   MR IRVING:  No. 9 is a photograph. I have included it purely
        for historical interest.  It shows the buildings
        demolished or partly blown up by somebody before February
        19th 1945.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  And the same is true of ten.
   THE WITNESS:   No, 10, the buildings are still standing.

.          P-121

   MR IRVING:  The photographs are not in sequence, my Lord.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I cannot make anything of 10 at all.
   MR IRVING:  If you look, my Lord, the original is very faded,
        but you can clearly make out the outlines of crematorium
        No. 2.  You can clearly make out the outlines going off
        horizontally to the left of the Leichenkeller No. 1 and
        once again there is no kind of markings whatsoever on the
        roof, that is my submission.
   A.   I would like to comment on that, that first of all the
        image is so bad that the whole chimney and the whole
        projection of crematorium 2 in image No. 10 has become one
        big blurry -- the building would have half been destroyed
        in this one, and that if one wants there is very little to
        see one way or another, but I actually think there are --
        at least I think that I see three dots on top of that, on
        top of that morgue, but that can also be simply some kind
        of --
   Q.   Can I ask you to take five-minutes during the lunch
        adjournment to have look at the original photographs,
        which are substantially better quality, and tell me
        honestly under oath whether you still say the same,
        because my submission is that there are no dots visible on
        any of the photographs apart from that August 1944 one.
   A.   -- I hope you have magnifying glasses because I have now
        reached the age I need reading glasses and I do not have
        them with me. I did not expect this kind of challenge.

.          P-122



   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, a magnifying glass would be quite a
        good idea, would it not.
   MR IRVING:  I will try and obtain one, my Lord, in the
        interval.  (To the witness) While, we have the bundle in
        front of us, will you please pass to page 14, which I hope
        will be in your bundle, Professor.
   A.   Page 14?
   Q.   Yes, it shows two photographs side by side.  I would ask
        you only to look at the photographs; disregard the text.
        The left hand photograph, would you agree, have you seen
        it before --
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   -- it show Hungarian prisoners arriving in May 1944 at
        Auschwitz.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Is there any smoke visible on that photograph?
   A.   No.
   Q.   The right hand photograph is the identical photograph
        apart for one thing.
   A.   There is some grey blood.
   Q.   Yes, does it appear to be smoke in the sky above some
        chimney in the background?
   A.   I do not know if it is a chimney. It is a pole. It is a
        kind of electricity pole.
   Q.   Yes, but it is not on the photograph on the left which is
        the original one as published by the Behalteklasse

.          P-123



        Foundation?
   A.   I agree.
   Q.   So, do you agree that one has to have heightened alertness
        when one is looking at photographs that have been
        published by whoever?  One has to be aware constantly that
        people sometimes...
   A.   Yes, but I may point out that at least with the photos of
        the Hungarian action in the Auschwitz album I have seen
        the originals and inspected the originals and worked with
        the originals.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  The originals show what? Smoke or no smoke?
   A.   I mean whatever the claim is being made here, I certainly,
        you know, it seems to be that the Weisenthal Centre on
        their website has prettied up this picture one way or
        another.  But certainly that is not my source of
        information for whatever material.
   MR IRVING:   Are you surprised to hear, Professor, that last
        night when I tried to go to their website this picture
        showing the smoke has been removed?
   A.   I presume they are following this trial on your website.
   Q.   Professor, will you now turn to the last page of the
        bundle of photographs?
   A.   The last page?
   Q.   The very last page.
   A.   24?
   Q.   That is right, should be a coloured diagram showing a wire

.          P-124



        mesh column.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Would you agree that this is a reasonable interpretation
        by an artist operating for the Holocaust history project
        of what the wire mesh introduction devices looked like, on
        the basis of eyewitness evidence?
   A.   No, I think it is wrong.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Who is Mark van Elstein?
   MR IRVING:  He is some artist employed by the Holocaust History
        Project, which is a non-revisionist, if I can put it that
        way, website.
   A.   I think he is wrong.
   Q.   In what degree do you think this differs from the real,
        from reality?
   A.   I think that, first of all, I think there were three
        concentric tubes, and there are only two shown here.
        I think the second one, which is really problematic is
        that he shows that the whole width of the column goes into
        the slab.  There was no reason for that, actually it would
        be counterproductive because the column, the idea of the
        column was to allow for the even dispersion of hydrogen
        cyanide in the room, not into the slab.  So to weaken the
        slab in that way, allowing for that disbursing mechanism
        to go into the slab is absolutely nonsense.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  This is the funnel point?
   A.   Yes, the funnel -- at the moment there is the underside of

.          P-125



        L Keller one roof, it is pointed at, but what is Mr van
        Elstein has done is project that whole dispersion
        mechanism into the slab, and I cannot see why anyone would
        have designed the thing like that.
   MR IRVING:  Apart from that, you would say it is a useful
        diagram that will help both his Lordship and the court?
   A.   To be very honest, I would not rely on it.  I think this
        is such a fundamental mistake.  We have only two -- we
        have only two concentric columns.  There were three as far
        as I remember, and the whole thing goes through the slab.
        This is an amazing difference between the actual thing as
        we know it, described by Kuhler, and what is drawn here.
        I can would not trust Mr van Elstein at all on this
        point.  I like the drawing.
   MR IRVING:  It is a good drawing.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I can see why you suggest there would have
        been a funnel when you take it through the concrete roof;
        why broaden it out though lower down?  Do you understand
        the question?
   A.   Why broaden --
   Q.   If it can be that narrow when it is going through the
        concrete roof; why does it not stay that narrow all the
        way down into the chamber?
   A.   -- no, but may I draw this?
   Q.   What is the reason?
   A.   The reason is that this central pipe, let us call it a

.          P-126



        pipe, has holes in it, perforated holes. In that pipe you
        throw the Zyklon-B, let us say 200 grammes or 500 grammes;
        the idea of this pipe is, is that there is actually on the
        bottom of this pipe is a tin, and the Zyklon-B goes into
        the tin.  You drop it into the tin.  Now one of problems
        with Zyklon-B is, and this what the column tries to
        address. It tries to address two things.  First of all, it
        tries to address the issue of how actually is the gas
        going to be released into the space.  Now if it simply
        came out of the holes of the thing.
   MR IRVING:  In a tightly packed gas chamber?
   A.   In a tightly packed room it would be much more difficult
        so when it first starts filling up, these two remaining
        spaces around that central pipe, and from there it is
        going to be released.  Yes?  So it becomes much more
        difficult also to seal it up.  Let us say, that in some
        way you create a zone in which people cannot intervene,
        which is that intermediate zone, intervene with basically
        the evaporation of the hydrogen cyanide.
   Q.   There is no trace on this picture of the basket, is there,
        which is lifted out afterwards?
   A.   No, he did not -- there was a basket in there, and I do
        not know if you want to go into the reason.
   Q.   No, not really.  I am just looking at dimensions now.  You
        see where it says on the right-hand side "240 centimetres
        from floor to ceiling"; that was the height of this

.          P-127



        mortuary, was it not?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   What is 240 centimetres in real terms; 8 feet?
   A.   A little less than 8 feet.
   Q.   So if Tauber, your eyewitness on whom you place such
        reliance, says that it was so low down the ceiling that
        one had to stoop, he was mistaken, was he not?
   A.   If you show me the passage I am happy to comment on it.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Let us have a look at the passage after the
        adjournment.
   MR IRVING:  I am very close to the end of this matter.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am not rushing you.  Are you going to
        finish this little clip of photographs?
   MR IRVING:   I beg your pardon?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Are you going to finish the clip of
        photographs in the next two or three minutes? If you are,
        carry on.
   MR IRVING:  I will just have a quick scan. You see
        this illustration suggests that the hole through the roof
        was 70 centimetres across which is about 2 feet, and you
        think it was smaller?
   A.   As I said, there was no reason at all to have the whole
        hydrogen cyanide release mechanism go into a roof.

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