Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day011.13 Last-Modified: 2000/07/20 Q. Yes, who advised him to rewrite what he had written. A. -- Mr Vrba had no document when he came out of Auschwitz. He did not carry with him a document. There was no one. . P-109 Q. Very well, we will disregard 22, but if you stay on page 23, picture 23, you can see that there is a hole cut through the concrete into darkness underneath and you can see reinforcing bars there, and the concrete there -- well you said 20 centimetres thick, did you not? A. Yes, I thought afterwards I thought 18 centimetres. Q. In real terms 18 centimetres is? A. Six inches. Q. Six inches? A. Yes. Q. Can we go back to the picture that you showed the court on Thursday of the locomotive and which we saw briefly on the screen again today, which I have reproduced for the sake of convenience, on page 16, my Lord, purely just as a visual remainder of what we are now arguing about, or talking about. This is the locomotive going past the roof which is clearly under construction still. It has not been banked up around. It has not had earth heaped over it and it has some protuberances on top. My Lord, I did refer, you will remember. I asked the witness if he had said a photograph with that same roof with snow covering? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I remember that. MR IRVING: Witness, will you please turn to page 17; is this a photograph that you recognize? A. Yes, and I actually kind of slightly stupidly commented on . P-110 it without having it in front of me, because yesterday coming back from Stockholm I thought there was a detail in the roof, two details, and that, you know, which I remembered, which was the detail of the roof was still being constructed on the left, and that that makes it one earlier than the one with the little locomotive in it. Q. This is quite obvious, is it not; the whole building is still under construction at an earlier stage than the locomotive picture? A. Yes. MR JUSTICE GRAY: This is December 1942 or thereabouts? A. Whatever, yes, I mean it is obviously maybe after the time that these people have been closing the roof, which we saw in the picture on top of morgue No. 1. But, yes, it looks -- I would date it probably somewhere December. There is still a lot of work to be done on the dormers. Q. Again, we can see quite clearly in somewhat more detail now the flat roof of mortuary No. 1, this is the flat white line which goes across from the centre of the page to the right; do you see that, my Lord? A. Yes. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I see, yes. MR IRVING: That is the flat roof with the snow on the top. (To the witness) Can you see any kind of disturbance of that snow line whatsoever that would indicate that there was either a hole or a plank or a . P-111 cover or a chimney, let alone three? Can you see any kind of disturbances at that time? A. No, you cannot see anything, but the question if there would be a plank on this and there is a snow cover on it then of course the snow would have covered the planks. Q. It would be satisfactory just to put a plank across there and no kind of water would get in through the hole underneath the plank if there was a hole underneath that plank? A. In a building under construction one has very temporary measures to close thing up. Q. But you cannot point to any kind of disturbance of that snow corresponding with the position of the three protuberances on the previous photograph on page 16, can you? A. I am looking at a 2 millimetre, 3 millimetre wide white line which is delicately reproduced, and it is very difficult to say anything about what actually happens in that snow right there. There may be planks covered by snow. There may be not, it may be disturbed one way or another, but it is very difficult to draw any conclusions -- Q. It is very weak evidence, is it not -- A. Sorry? Q. This photograph, No. 17, is it not? A. -- weak evidence of what? . P-112 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Of what? MR IRVING: Of any inference I might seek to draw from it. You say this is just one rather smudgy white line and what can one say? You cannot draw conclusions; is that what you are saying? MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is a straw in the wind, in the sense that there would inevitably be a stage when there would the roof in place but nothing sticking through it because they had not got round to sticking anything through it. MR IRVING: We are coming to all this in two or three minutes, my Lord. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Very sorry. MR IRVING: (To the witness) But I just want to establish you say we cannot draw conclusions just on the basis of this rather smudgy photograph? A. Yes. Q. It is ten inches across, but you cannot draw conclusions? A. Yes. Q. But can you draw conclusions from the previous photograph, which is even smudgier; is this what you are saying? A. Yes, because there is something to see there. I mean this one is pretty smudgy, but in the original you actually see those box like structures above morgue No. 1. Q. Very well, but there is no indication whatsoever on picture No. 17 of any provision made for them, no coverings; we cannot see any planks or scaffolding boards . P-113 or anything covering the whole there? It is just one smooth snow line across the top? A. Covering whatever is below it, either the roof of morgue No. 1, or the openings which have been temporarily closed with pieces of wood, or pieces of board. Q. Now in your evidence you drew attention, did you not, to the photographs which I reproduced again on page 6. Mr Rampton may prefer that we look at the original bundle rather than -- this is the same photograph, is it not? The one with the smudges on the roof, the four smudges? A. Page No. 6. Q. Of my bundle, yes. There are two photographs there. I would only draw attention to the bottom photograph, which is the one which has not been touched. This is the one you showed, is it not, showing four smudges? A. Yes, may -- what do you mean was touched? Q. We just marked on the upper photograph with red dots the position of the holes as they are on the roof now. A. OK. Q. This roof you appreciate is still there, and the two holes marked in red are visible on that roof now? A. Yes. Q. Just for the sake so there is no confusion at all, we have marked in the position on that roof of where those two present day holes are, which is what one can clamber through, the one shown in the photograph -- . P-114 A. No, I do not think you are right on that, and I am not going to -- I think we should have maybe a survey, but the thing is that the hole, which is very close to the second column, of the -- you see, one of the big problems is that the white smudge, which in some way you interpret as the top of -- as the roof, actually, it is not only the roof of the gas chamber, but it is also the slope. The earth is sloped up to it. So, in fact, that smudge is larger than the actual roof. We can go back to my reconstruction, yes. Q. -- I am afraid I do not get what you are saying there at all. A. OK, maybe I can point it out on this. If, indeed, this -- if this is the exact size of the original morgue No. 1, in fact, the earth was sloped up to the roof and then covered the roof and sloped down. So the actual line, what you see here, there is the big white smudge actually takes a larger area than the actual roof area. If you then start looking at the dots, then the dots clearly start to be much more -- because otherwise the dots are not actually in a pattern. We have seven columns at regular intervals between the end wall and then we get seven columns and then we get basically the wall of the crematorium. Q. So you are still submitting to the court that these smudges represent the position of holes through the roof through which the SS officers poured the cyanide pellets? . P-115 A. That the smudges were caused by the holes. It is very difficult at this... Q. Magnification. A. At this magnification to determine exactly what is happening there. I do not know exactly -- we know from the Bryant investigation that at a certain moment objects the size of a head would -- was the size of a grain in the negative and that all kind of moray (?) effects started to happen, so we are talking here about what is happening on size of a grain in the negative. Q. When was this photograph taken, Professor? The one we are looking at, August 1944? A. I do not know if this is August 1st or May 1st or it was even possibly a September one. Q. Were all the photographs with which we are familiar taken in 1944? A. Yes. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I am sorry, I think I am a bit confused; is this Leichenkeller No. One. THE WITNESS: Yes. MR JUSTICE GRAY: You said a moment ago that the holes were still there, or two of them are. MR IRVING: Two holes have been made after the war, my Lord. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Oh, I see, made after the war. MR IRVING: In positions indicated by the little red dots by whom knows whom out of curiosity to find -- . P-116 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Experimentally. MR IRVING: To find out what is underneath. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I thought you meant that we could see the holes that were originally there. MR IRVING: We have seen the photograph of one of the holes, my Lord, with the metal reinforcing bars twisted up to obtain access. THE WITNESS: But, my Lord, I do challenge the position of the red dots on that mark No. 3. I challenge that these actually, the location of the holes right now in the roof. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not quite see why it matters. A. OK. But in any case because I think maybe there was confusion about that. MR IRVING: Well, are you suggesting to the court that the holes we have seen photographs of, the one with the reinforcing bars twisted up is one of the holes on which you relying? A. No. Q. In other words, whether you challenge it or not is neither here nor there? A. OK, neither here nor there. MR JUSTICE GRAY: You say if we are wrong, but it does not appear to me to be significant. MR IRVING: No. Witness, I have here a number of original photographs from the National Archives Cardographic . P-117 Branch. These are original prints taken from the original negatives that were over Auschwitz in 1944, as you say. I have five of them, which show these buildings. I am not going to ask you now, witness, to examine them in detail, because clearly that would disrupt the proceedings of the court. But I have produced for the court's interest in large sections of those photographs, and they begin, my Lord, on page 7; 7, 8, 8 and 10, which is where my computer crashed, so I will not rely on the fifth photograph. But I would ask the witness to comment on these enlarged sections of the original photographs which he can scrutinize, I would suggest, during the lunch adjournment and say if he can see the slightest sign of dots on the roof of this building; the mortuary No. 1 in crematorium No. 2, "The Factory of Death", on which his entire case, that this was a factory of death relies. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I imagine he would probably say straightaway. THE WITNESS: I can say that. Picture No. 7 seems to depict the building after the destruction had started. I do not know how far it is. I think maybe it is not even an American but a German photo. MR IRVING: No, the German photograph is picture No. 9 that was -- A. No. 9 -- Q. That was taken on February 19th 1945 -- . P-118 A. So there the buildings are completely destroyed. So the issue of dots is irrelevant there, yes? Q. Yes. A. At picture No. 7, whatever the date -- there already seems to be in the picture No. 7, is that there is -- certainly there is -- I can see, but it is kind of useless for me to argue. I could say I see two dots on morgue No. 1 -- Q. But you cannot see the same four smudges in any of the photographs? A. -- but I said I certainly see four smudges in photograph No. 8 behind crematorium No. 3. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can you point them out to me?
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