Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day008.12
Last-Modified: 2000/07/20

   Q.   You stop interrogating me, if you will, Mr Irving and give
        me your explanation why, as I now apprehend, you are
        saying we cannot trust the page we have been looking at?
   A.   Because it has been typed -- I have looked at the original
        of this document, Mr Rampton, you are looking at a
        photocopy.  I have looked at the original in the
        archives.  It is typed on different, here onwards it is
        typed on a different typewriter, this page, the page 28.
   Q.   Where was it found?
   A.   What do you mean "where was it found"?
   Q.   Where was this speech found, Mr Irving?
   A.   Can I just complete what I am saying?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I would like you to because I want
to
        know exactly what you say about ----
   A.   It is very important, my Lord.  It has been typed by a
        different typist.
   Q.   Page 28.
   A.   And this frequently happened.  I spotted many diaries
that
        had been fumbled with subsequently or pages of
documents.
        This had been typed by a different typist.  They use
        different ways of typing.  You will notice that there
is
        more space after the first line on page 28, after the

.          P-105



        "Reichsfuhrer SS", it has a double space after that
        instead of a single space on the previous page.  She
has
        indented by five spaces at the beginning of each
        paragraph.  I am assuming it is a she.
   Q.   So what do you infer from that?
   A.   We do not, my Lord.  All we can say is that for some
        reason this page was retyped at a different date.  We
do
        not whether it was retyped during the war, which is
the
        likelihood.  We do not know what has been inserted or
        taken out.  On this occasion we do not have the other
        transcripts of that speech.  So that is a page that I
am
        unhappy about pinning a capital issue on.  You do not
        often find a document that has been so clearly
tampered
        with as that.
   MR RAMPTON:  Oh, yes, there is, for example, at least two
        versions of the next speech we are coming to.
   A.   We are looking at this speech though are we not, the
fact
        that change just occurs on this page.
   Q.   I wish you would sometimes let me ask you a question.
   A.   I have not really finished what I was speaking abut.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Let us pause. Finish your answer and then
the
        next question.
   A.   About the falsification of this particular page, the
fact
        that this particular page has been clearly retyped at
a
        different date and that this is the one page that
        contains, as I quite agree, a pivotal sentence, makes
me

.          P-106



        very unhappy about just relying on this version of
that
        sentence.  I am not saying it is a postwar forgery.
        I think it is unlikely.  I think it is the kind of
        fumbling that goes on during the war, when people have
        spotted they have said something wrong and so they
have
        put something else in instead.  For example, just for
one
        minute I would say I found exactly the same in the
private
        diary of Henry Stimpson, who was the American
Secretary of
        War who retyped the pages just before Pearl Harbour to
cut
        out incriminating material, and as he said later said
to
        Henry Morgan: "I have gone through my diaries cutting
out
        everything that incriminates President Roosevelt", you
can
        spot that if you look at the originals, as I always
prefer
        to, rather than looking at printed versions on in this
        case microcopies.
   MR RAMPTON:  Mr Irving, we will see when we get to the next
        speech similar things have happened?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   I am not the least bit resistant to the idea that that
        particular page, like others of no particular
        significance, was retyped.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   How many versions of a speech or of pages of a speech
do
        you think you go through before you reach the final
        version if you type them out or draft them beforehand?
   A.   Well, I have looked at very many of the original
Himmler

.          P-107



        speeches.  As I said, I have must have looked at about
ten
        of these kinds of transcripts, and there are
transcripts,
        there is a whole published volume of Himmler speeches,
so
        you end up with a large number of transcripts to look
at.
        This speech I think is the only one where I found a
        discrepancy of this magnitude which has not been
remarked
        on by the historians.  I am very uneasy that it is
this
        page of all the pages that shows the signs of I would
        wartime tampering.
   Q.   Not wartime tampering.  Can I suggest a natural human
        process for the production of one amongst several
pages
        that look different?  For example, if you look at page
7,
        the next page, the number at the top of the page has
not
        been typed; it has been handwritten.
   A.   From thereon they are handwritten, yes, in the entire
        speech.
   Q.   Yes, but what is baffling me, Mr Irving, is why you
will
        not actually use your knowledge of the world to
advance
        the most likely explanation of this phenomenon, is
that
        somebody types version one, Himmler looks at it and he
        says, "Oh, I don't think like that very much", and in
        those days of course you do not have word processors,
so
        it has to be retyped on a different typewriter,
perhaps
        the same day, perhaps on another day, it matters not.
        This is Himmler's words in Himmler's speech in
Himmler's
        own private file.

.          P-108



   A.   This is the man who also wrote on another occasion:
"Let
        us do this for camouflage purposes. I like the new
        version, it's going to the Fuhrer.  Excellent for
        camouflage purposes." We cannot trust him,
unfortunately.
        When we find a speech has been tampered with in this
way,
        then frankly I mention it, in fact I think in Hitler's
War
        I drew attention to the discrepancy in the numbering
and
        the typeface and the paragraph indent and so on.
   Q.   You did, and in such a way as to suggest that there is
        clear evidence of an order from Hitler to Himmler to
carry
        out the extermination programme could not be relied
upon.
   A.   Is this a hanging document?
   Q.   Oh, yes.
   A.   Would you hang somebody on this?
   Q.   I would not hang anybody for anything, as it happens,
        Mr Irving, not even Adolf Hitler if he were here,
though
        some people in this room might.  This is not a
prosecution
        of Adolf Hitler.  This is in your mind, should be, not
        setting out to prove something, seeing what the
evidence
        suggests.
   A.   Yes, but this is precisely the same situation, to my
mind,
        as where a court is shown a so-called confession and
then
        when you look at the original you find out that one
page
        of the confession has been rewritten and inserted at a
        later date.  The court would then throw out the whole
        confession, frankly.

.          P-109



   Q.   This has been put in by the Allies to incriminate
Hitler,
        has it?
   A.   No.  You are putting it in to make your point.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Rampton, I think we probably ought to
        pause.  You have not finished with this and it may be
it
        would be worth looking perhaps after the adjournment
at
        how this is dealt with in whichever of Mr Irving's
books
        it is dealt within.
   A.   Yes, I did try to find it, my Lord.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Shall we say 5 past 2?
                        (Luncheon Adjournment)
                      MR DAVID IRVING, continued.
                  Cross-Examined by MR RAMPTON, QC, continued.
   MR RAMPTON:  Now, Mr Irving, will you please tell us slowly
and
        carefully why it matters, in your view, if it be
right,
        that this page of this speech by Himmler has been
retyped?
   A.   Well, I have had the advantage, of course, that I have
        refreshed my memory from reading my own book.
   Q.   Yes.
   A.   So I will give the same explanation or speculation now
as
        I did in my book.
   Q.   Yes.
   A.   First of all, I have had the advantage that I have
seen
        the original and I work from the original paper of
this
        transcript.  From the original paper, it is evident
that

.          P-110



        the original in the archives is a carbon copy, which
means
        that the ribbon copy went somewhere else.  It is
        reasonable to suppose, as this is typed on the large
        typeface, that the ribbon copy went to Adolf Hitler.
                  All we can say, however, is that at some
time,
        somebody considered it necessary to retype page 28
which
        contains the pregnant sentence about the order.
        I speculate in my book that it is reasonable to assume
        that the version that went to Adolf Hitler did not
have
        this retyped page in.  It went in with some different
        formulation.
   Q.   There is the leap into space which, I am afraid, I do
not
        follow.
   A.   Well, the alternative -- I would be interested to hear
        what your alternative explanation would be.
   Q.   No.  I do not see anything in the evidence before my
        eyes.  Assuming you are right it was retyped,
certainly
        the page numbering has been changed.
   A.   And the indenting is different.
   Q.   There does not seem to be anything in what I see
before my
        eyes to tell me that it was done after or before the
other
        pages.  There is nothing which I see in this document
        which leads me to think that if it was altered, it was
        altered for any other reason than that Himmler had
changed
        his mind about precisely what he wanted to say.
   A.   He did not read from this.  This is a transcript of
what

.          P-111



        he said -- if you appreciate the difference?  This is
not
        a script that he read from.  This is the typed version
of
        what he said taken from a shorthand note.
   Q.   Well, can you look at this document?  My Lord, this is
        another version of the same page which I am told comes
        from the archives.  It was obtained for me yesterday
        because I thought we might get to this today.  There
is
        one for his Lordship and one for Mr Irving.  We have
in
        front of us a typescript, not in Fuhrer's size type,
have
        we not, Mr Irving?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   With a lot of manuscript alterations on it?
   A.   Editing, yes.
   Q.   In the top right-hand corner the typewritten No. 17
which
        has not been changed.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   If you look at about nine lines down, you see the same
        passage beginning that we were discussing before the
        adjournment, do we not, "Die Judenfrage" at the end of
the
        line?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   It still has seven lines below that or eight, six to
        seven: "Dieses mehr gegevenen [German - document not
        provided] -- zustattenen befalls war"?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   I should read the whole thing, "Wie schwer [German -

.          P-112



        document not provided] -- befalls war".  That is the
same
        phrase as appears in the other version?
   A.   That is absolutely correct.  Exactly the same, no
editing
        on that passage at all.
   Q.   But we can, can we not, infer from the page number
that
        the speech was at that stage a good deal shorter
because
        in our other version the page number finally winds up
as
        being 28, I think, does it not?  That may be a
function of
        the different size.
   A.   Different size typeface.
   Q.   But I ask you to notice that the top right-hand corner
of
        the one we have got in the bundle ----
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   --- appears to have been changed from a number in its
        teens, does it not?
   A.   Hard to say on the basis of that copy.
   Q.   In manuscript.
   A.   I can only say it is hard to say on the basis of that
        copy.
   Q.   It is hard to say, but the first of those digits looks
a
        bit like a 1, does it not?
   A.   I can only say it is hard to say.
   Q.   You see, I do not make these observations in order to
lead
        to a particular conclusion.  All I say is you do not
find
        in these different versions and different numberings
of a
        page containing the same words, do you, any suggestion

.          P-113



        that this page was added at a later date, after some
        sanitized version had been given to Hitler?
   A.   That is not the suggestion that I made.
   Q.   Well, what is it?
   A.   I am perfectly content with the suggestion and, in
fact,
        with the clear proof that Himmler actually used these
        words when speaking to this audience of military
gentlemen
        who were accustomed to accepting orders from above.
What
        I am suggesting is that in the version that he then
sent
        to Hitler he retyped that page and replaced it by
another
        page that is not before us.
   Q.   But why do you say that?
   A.   Because something has happened to this page.  Quite
        clearly something has happened to this page.
   Q.   But people make alterations to their drafts all the
time.
        Look, do you agree that this smaller typeface probably
        represents an earlier generation of the same ----
   A.   Quite clearly.  It is almost certainly the original
        shorthand version.
   Q.   So what leads you to suppose then that the speech was made
        in these terms, let us suppose this is an earlier draft?
   A.   Yes.

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