Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day007.21 Last-Modified: 2000/07/20 Q. "It brings us back to the fact that what they are really after is to try to stop me speaking, because when I speak audiences go away worried about whether the gas chambers" plural "and death camps" plural "and the factories of . P-181 death" plural "really did exist or is this really the biggest lie of the 20th Century?" I will stop there. Do not comment. Please listen to my question. The answer you gave me a moment ago to the effect that when you referred to the Auschwitz legend and there being no gas chambers, was in fact intended and never intended to refer to anything but the single reconstructed gas chamber at Auschwitz one. That answer was complete tosh, was it not, Mr Irving? A. We would have to go back and look at the precise wording I used. I think both statements are entirely supportable. The fact that audiences go away worried that if this is true about this site, what about the other sites, it is quite a natural reaction. Q. We will pass now to page 31. You say with some pride, I think, Mr Irving, and I am afraid I do have to take this up now because it is part of my case, I am sorry I did not spot it earlier, proudly as though you scored some kind of wizard point, there is no reference to the Jews amongst all that stuff about the gays, the lesbians, the communists and the trade unions. Let me read on. A. What page are we on? Q. Page 22. Let me read on. This is one of some of the remarks which I shall rely on at the end of the case. "Is this really the biggest lie of the 20th Century, because if it is the biggest lie, then it has a . P-182 corollary, and that is that hundreds of millions of innocent people who have been bamboozled", I will miss out the "who" I think, "hundreds of millions of innocent people have been bamboozled, and they have been bamboozled for a purpose. And the purpose I think we can all say on reflection, looking over our own perception of the media, is that every time a Jewish financier, a John Guttfreund, the Salomon brothers or Ivan Boesky or Ernest Saunders or one of these, or Michael Milken, everyone time one of them is caught with his hands deep in the till and he has, yes, that's true, he has undoubtedly bilked hundreds of thousands of investors out of every penny they have got" ---- A. That was Mr Michael Milken. He went to prison for it. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Please let Mr Rampton continue. MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving. "Michael Milken and the rest of them, people have gone to the wall, they have put all their money into junk bonds and the rest of it, and these financiers have laughed like Ivan Boesky paid $100 million fine on the instruction of the American Government and they still laughed because they can afford it". Now what is that passage? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can you read the next three or four lines. A. Precisely. MR RAMPTON: "When you read this kind of story and if you realize that they are Jewish, then the invitation is that . P-183 the man in the street should say: Yes, but they have suffered, haven't they? They did the have Holocaust." MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is it. A. Yes. MR RAMPTON: What is the point of putting that glorious purple prose passage into this speech about Auschwitz, tell me? A. Because first of all may I say this is not only my opinion, even leading Jewish experts like Professor Peter Novac of the University Chicago quite recently within the last two or three months ---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: Answer for yourself, Mr Irving. A. --- has stated precisely the same point. They have said that the whole of the Holocaust industry has been generated in order to prevent, to create a kind of safety curtain, a fire wall which protects, for example, as Professor Peter Novic says, the activities of the Israeli Government on the West Bank, which protects, for example, the entire Jewish population in the United States from criticism to which they might otherwise be subjected. I think this is a perfectly reasonable statement and I would not have made it if I did not know that I was buttressed by leading Jewish authorities who are equally aware of precisely the same origins or possible origins of part of the present promotion of the Holocaust story. We will be listening to one of my own experts on this, Professor McDonald, on precisely this matter when the time . P-184 comes. MR JUSTICE GRAY: So the Holocaust is a kind of a lie dreamt up in order to excuse crooked Jewish financiers? A. I would like to endorse your Lordship's wording but I cannot. I did not put it like that. Q. What are you saying if you are not saying that? A. I have said here that there is a body of opinion which says that one possible cause for the promotion of this particular legend is the fact they find it serves a purpose to protect their community from criticism which might otherwise be levelled against them because of their activities in the world of finance, or because of their brutality on the West Bank or whatever. I certainly would not have made that kind of statement had I not known that senior members of their own community are worried on precisely the same score. I mentioned the name of Professor Peter Novic of the University of Chicago whose book is about to be published in this country too I believe. They cannot be insulated from criticism just because of the Holocaust, and I think most members of the Jewish community would find it repugnant to suggest that they were or they should be. MR RAMPTON: Can we move on in this transcript, please, Mr Irving, to page 31, bottom of the page. A. This is transcript No. 9. Q. I am still in transcript No. 9. "I don't see any reason . P-185 to be tasteful about Auschwitz." You have heard this before of course. "It's baloney. It's a legend. Once we admit the fact that it was a brutal slave labour camp and large numbers of people did die, as large numbers of innocent people died elsewhere in the war. Why believe the rest of the baloney? I say quite tastelessly in fact that more people died on the back seat of Edward Kennedy's car at Chappaquidick than ever died in gas chamber", note you do not say "the gas chamber", "a gas chamber in Auschwitz. Laughter." Laughter, Mr Irving? A. No laughter is just once there, Mr Rampton. Q. Laughter. That is three times. A. That is three times, Mr Rampton. Now you are getting appreciative laughter from your audience. Q. Why should your audience think that what you yourself describe as "tasteless", why should they think that is funny? A. Possibly because you omitted the beginning of that paragraph, Mr Rampton. Can I read it? "Why did Gorbochov release the Auschwitz records? A very interesting question. This was in September 21st 1989. Tass, the Soviet News Agency, announced that they had 'now found' all the death books of Auschwitz which sent a shudder through every Jewish so-called refugee around the world notice word so-called around the world." Notice the word "so-called" around the world. "Every so-called . P-186 survivor of the Holocaust or survivor of Auschwitz, people who claimed they had been in Auschwitz. When they heard that the Russians announced that they had found all the death books and the entire filing cards of every prisoner who had been in Auschwitz, suddenly there was a lot reshuffling went on. Ely Weasel, for example, no longer claimed to be a survivor of Auschwitz. He suddenly decided he was a survivor of Dachau or Vukenvau. He was not even quite sure about that." We are talking here about the spurious survivors of the Holocaust which is the second S in that word you are just going to come to which has been left out of the transcript. Q. Will you read on the next sentence, please, about Mr Wiesel. "In fact he seems to have done quite a cook's tour of the different concentration camps. Laughter." A. Yes. Q. What is it, do you think, that you your audience is laughing about? A. Because they know that Ely Wiesel is a particularly unpopular character. Even the Jewish community holds him as being particularly unpopular because of his posturing. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Sorry, posturing, what is the posturing? A. He is a poser. He is on all the presidential committees. He is on all the Holocaust memorial museum committees. He has made a lot of money out of the Holocaust, and yet he . P-187 cannot quite remember which camp he was in, my Lord. Q. Is that so surprising? A. If I was in Auschwitz ---- Q. Tell me. I would like to know your answer. A. My Lord, if I was in Auschwitz I would remember it was Auschwitz and not Vukenvau or Bergen Belsen or Dachau. That is what his problem is, my Lord. The world is full of people come forward and claim to have been survivors of Auschwitz, most recently the notorious case of Benjamin Wilkomersky who was recently exposed by the BBC. I find these spurious -- I have the utmost sympathy for people genuinely suffered the torments and horrors of Auschwitz and these other camps, and let there be no doubt whatsoever about that, but the spurious survivors who are trying to cash in now by saying they too were there, that is the people I reserve this association of spurious survivors of the Holocaust, "the arseholes" as they referred to here. I agree that is a frightfully tasteless word to use and I would not normally use it in public. But I have the greatest contempt for these people who are trying to climb on the Holocaust bandwagon. MR RAMPTON: And it is not a laughing matter if they should do so, is it, Mr Irving? A. These unfortunates who claim they were there and never been anywhere near Auschwitz, yes. Q. People who fraudulently, if there are any such people, . P-188 people who fraudulently ---- A. You do not believe the case of Mr Wilkomersky who said he had been there? Q. I know well about the case of Mr Wilkomersky and I am not going to discuss ---- A. So the word "if" is misplaced. Q. It is not misplaced necessarily, Mr Irving. We are not going to, unless his Lordship tells us we are, going to examine the case of Mr Benjamin Wilkomersky, the Swiss orchestral musician, in this court, if you do not mind. Mr Irving, you will not answer my questions, I know, because you do not like them, but please answer: Why should such a serious matter as fraudulent Holocaust or Auschwitz pretence or posturing provoke laughter from your audience? A. Because there is something ludicrous about it, something pathetic about it, and the notion that a lot of these spurious survivors had been found out by the Russians of all people who were publishing the index cards, made known that they had found the index cards of everyone who was a genuine survivor which promoted the scurrying that went on for the few weeks after that. That is what provoked the laughter I am afraid. Q. Can I suggest something completely different, and perhaps a little nearer to the truth of the matter. That remark, those remarks about spurious survivors, the remark about . P-189 Edward Kennedy's car at Chappaquidick, the remark over the page about arseholes, as we call them in this country, provoked the laughter they did because you were amongst an audience of anti-Semitics, these remarks were intended to provoke that kind of laughter. You can see that, if you like, from the very way in which they are phrased? A. I do not think so. I think I was amongst an audience of antiphonies. Q. Did not you notice anything when you were talking about the way in which the Holocaust is used to protect frightful Jewish criminals like Boesky, did you not detect anything in the wording of that passage reminiscent of Dr Goebbels in it, in the way you relish the dishonesty of these Jewish people? A. I relish the dishonesty of the Jews? Q. So it seems to me, Mr Irving, please comment on that? A. Now I am stuck here with a bit of a problem, because Jewish historians have made precisely the same comment I have. The Jewish community have made precisely the same comment that I have. Jewish sociologists have made precisely the same comment that I have. Are suggesting that only Jewish sociologists are entitled to make this kind of hostile comment about the reasons for the propagation of the Holocaust story, and that non-Jewish historians are to be excluded from this kind of comment?
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