Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day005.08 Last-Modified: 2000/08/01 MR JUSTICE GRAY: What is the significance of that last sentence you have just read out, Mr Rampton? It makes no sense to me at all. MR RAMPTON: What it means is that Hitler already knew that it had happened in Lithuania. A. What had happened? Q. The Jews had been removed from Lithuania? A. Yes. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Why is that significant? MR RAMPTON: Because of what happened next and, of course, with what had happened before. A. So you accuse me of a sin of omission yet again, in other words, the book should have been 2,000 pages long instead of 1,000. Q. If his plan was to transport everybody to Madagascar after the war, why should he think it is significant that Lithuania was now Jew free? A. I do not know. We do not know what the preceding sentences say, and I hesitate to express opinion there. It looks like the corollary of something that he said in the previous sentence which Professor Evans has not vouchsafed to us. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is not the real point on this it was obvious, or should have been obvious -- this is Professor Evans to Mr Irving -- that this was a classic example of camouflage . P-65 in Federation MR RAMPTON: Yes, absolutely. A. He could well argue that, but I would argue on the contrary. MR JUSTICE GRAY: That, as I understand it, is the way the case is put on this particular table talk. A. Your Lordship will certainly attach whatever weight you wish to to that, but the evidence is that Adolf Hitler, certainly since June 1938, had adumbrated the Madagascar plan, and he repeatedly referred to it in a rather wistful kind of way. He discussed it with the German Navy. The German Admiralty actually became involved in a detailed plan, so did the German Foreign Office, so did various subordinate departments. All I am saying in this sentence is that as late as July 1942 in this rather madcap way he is still talking of Madagascar. MR RAMPTON: Yes, but it is a question of whether you take him seriously or not, is it not? That is what matters, from history's point of view. A. Should I have suppressed this sentence? Should I have dropped it on the floor, the same way as your historians have dropped the other documents on the floor that do not fit into their arguments? Q. Would you please turn over the page in Professor Evans' report to page 423, you will see why it is that I suggest that when Hitler talks of Madagascar in July 1942 at his . P-66 table talk it is mere fanciful waffle. Look at paragraph 3 in Richard Evans's report, please? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Not just waffle, euphemism. MR RAMPTON: Yes, euphemism, yes. "By early 1942, it had thus been made official that Hitler was no longer aiming at driving Jews out of Europe to Africa. The Madagascar plan, which had already been postponed indefinitely in the Autumn of 1940, was now officially shelved. It is totally misleading to speculate, as Irving does, that Hitler in July 1942 'might still be dreaming of Madagascar'. On 10th February 1942 the Foreign Office official who had first proposed the plan for deporting the Jews to Madagascar in 1940 wrote that: 'Gruppenfuhrer Heydrich has been charged by the Fuhrer with carrying out the solution of the Jewish question in Europe. In the meantime, the war against the Soviet Union has opened up the possibility of placing other territories at our disposal for the Final Solution. Accordingly, the Fuhrer has decided that the Jews should be pushed off not to Madagascar but to the East. Madagascar, therefore, does not need to be foreseen for the final solution any more"? A. Are you implying that Heydrich was the one who called the shots and not Hitler? Q. This appears to be a report at secondhand, admittedly ---- A. I am afraid this point rather operates against yourself. . P-67 You are implying that Heydrich is the one who made the decisions and not Hitler who is talking here still about Madagascar. I am perfectly ---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, because it goes on to say that the Fuhrer has made the decision that it should not be Madagascar. MR RAMPTON: The Fuhrer has decided. A. But here, quite clearly, the Fuhrer is still talking about Madagascar in the way that Heads of State do. Q. Yes, it is camouflage; it no longer means anything? A. May I remind you, why the Madagascar plan was dropped was because Germany was not in a position to ship the stuff, to get the shipping and to transport these emigres overseas any more without the ships being torpedoed. He is talking about after the war it would be nice if we could resume the Madagascar plan. Q. Maybe, so we can lay our hands on the remaining 4 million Jews, perhaps? A. That is not exactly what he says, Mr Rampton. I have adhered very closely to what is in the sources. It would have been irresponsible of me to have ignored this remark in the way that the historians have ignored the other documents that do not fit in with their schemes. I am writing a biography of Adolf Hitler, and this is very clearly a germane document to include, but to give it no more weight than I assigned to it. Q. So is the Foreign Office document, is it not? . P-68 A. I have mentioned that at the appropriate place in this very volume too. Q. Well, the appropriate place, do you say that place -- if you do, I am wrong? A. I shall certainly look it out overnight and bring it before the court so we do not have to waste more time. Q. But, of course, Hitler had, in fact, already ordered Madagascar to be taken off the menu back in February, so this cannot be taken at face value. Did you write that anywhere? A. Mr Rampton, these are your suppositions for which you have no evidence. I can only work on the evidence which is in the documents. The table talk, as I have always said, are documents of a very high category of authenticity and integrity. Q. Is that Foreign Office document of, is it, 10th February, is that an authentic document, do you think? A. Indeed, yes, but you will accept the planning undergoes swings and changes as the climate of the war changes, as the advance proceeds on the Eastern Front or as one has set backs, then one adapts one's plans. MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is page 423, if you want to cross- refer. A. I am indebted to your Lordship, yes. This very document was quoted by me in full on page 423, the relevant part, which is what, no doubt, brought it to Professor Evans' attention in the first place. . P-69 MR RAMPTON: My Lord, may I say what I propose to do next? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. MR RAMPTON: That ends that little exercise with the table talks and very little it was, I took too long. It ends on 24th July. I now propose to lay out as quickly as I can (but it is necessary to look at some original German documents) what was going on, so far as anybody knows from the German documents, from 28th or earlier about this time, end of July 1942, and then I make no secret of it, I am going to then end up with Himmler's note of 22nd September 1942. That is not quite my terminus. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Which is that? A. We have not had that yet. MR RAMPTON: That is the next topic, but it does require some background. It may be best to lay the ground by referring to what Mr Irving wrote about it in his book. A. Mr Rampton, you say you are going to be producing to the court German documents. Will you make it plain on each occasion whether they were documents that were before me at the time I wrote the books or not. MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is a fair point. MR RAMPTON: I may not know the answer to that -- it is a fair point, but it is not the whole of the point by any means because you have said something about the Himmler log entry of 22nd September 1942, and what I want to do is to see whether you adhere to what you there said. It is also . P-70 evidence of system, of course, and scale. So it does several jobs at the same time. Can we look, please, first of all, at page 467 of Hitler's War 1991? A. The closing words of the paragraph -- of the chapter? Q. Yes, they are. It is right to point out that this half page which ends at a half page on page 467 starts with a reference to Himmler on page 466. Perhaps your Lordship might just read that? I have some questions about that also. MR JUSTICE GRAY: From where? MR RAMPTON: From "Himmler kept his own counsels". MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can I just read it? I have read it before, but I have to remind myself. MR RAMPTON: Yes. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. MR RAMPTON: Now, Mr Irving, if you would just look at that for a moment, just 467 for the moment? At the end of the paragraph you write: "Himmler meanwhile continued to pull the wool over Hitler's eyes. On September 17th he calmly jotted in his notes for that day's Fuhrer conference: '(1) Jewish immigration; how is it to be handled in future? (2) Settlement of Lublin', and noted next to these points 'Conditions in general government and Globas'" which is Globocnik's nickname. Yet, at the top of the page, at the end of the first little paragraph you write this: "The Fuhrer himself", and this is a . P-71 translation of Himmler's letter to Berger of that date, "The Fuhrer himself has entrusted me with the execution of this arduous order and nobody can deprive me of this responsibility." A. You did not read out the first part which is to say what the order was. Q. I am so sorry. The task is making the occupied Eastern territories ---- A. The full text is: "The occupied Eastern territories are to be liberated of Jews. The Fuhrer himself has entrusted me with the execution of this arduous order. Nobody can deprive me of this responsibility." Q. I am just getting out the original which is "Die besetzen osgebete werden Judenfrage", "The occupied East territories will be Jew-free", correct? A. Well... Q. It must be? A. That is what I would refer to as a wooden translation, yes. Q. Oh, yes. I do not make any apology for it being wooden? A. It is me being defensive. Q. "Die durchfuhrung dieses sehr schweren gefalls" --- the carrying out of this very hard order -- "hat der Fuhrer auf mein schuntten gelecht" -- has the Fuhrer placed on my shoulders, is that right? A. Yes, yes. . P-72 Q. So Himmler has been given the very hard, sehr schwer, task of clearing the Eastern territories, occupied Eastern territories, of all the Jews, has he not? A. Rendering the Eastern territories free of the Jews, yes. Q. Yes. So about what was it, if Himmler is telling the truth about that, that Himmler on, in fact, I think the dates are 22nd and not 17th, but it matters not. MR JUSTICE GRAY: You accept that, do you not, Mr Irving? A. That I do not know, but it is not important. MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is not important, I agree. MR RAMPTON: On 22nd September, about what was it that Himmler was pulling the wool over Hitler's eyes? A. At this time a killing operation had begun, that the killings were going on. Q. Surely not. By what means? A. I do not know. It is not important for the purposes of that answer.
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