The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

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Last-Modified: 2000/07/20

   Q.   Yes.  Right, now, will you please, just so that we can
        clear up this, I will not use the word, just this little
        dispute, please keep your finger where you are and turn to

.                                      P-227

        tab 11 which is something you said apparently on the
        unedited transcripts of an interview on 15th and 28th
        November for the "This Week" programme and I think Irving
        and Leuchter at the Chelsea Town Hall was a press
        conference you gave announcing your publication of the
        Leuchter Report, am I right?
   A.   It was a lecture that we organized at the Chelsea Town
        Hall, yes.
   Q.   Can you turn to page 2, please, of this transcript?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am sorry, Mr Rampton.  This contains two
        separate things, this tab, does it?  One, the press
        conference and the other a television interview?
   MR RAMPTON:  It does.
   A.   What I am I supposed to be looking at?
   MR RAMPTON:  Page 2 of the transcript which is at tab 11,
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  This is the press conference.
   MR RAMPTON:  This is the press conference and there is a
        passage time at 0014.25.
   A.   I only have tape 191 in this book.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is what you are meant to be looking
   MR RAMPTON:  Page 191.
   A.   Tape 191.
   MR RAMPTON:  Tape 191.  Please turn to the second page of
        transcript and look at the last paragraph on the

.                                      P-228

   A.   1425 right?  The time?
   Q.   Yes, 1425.  You told his Lordship this morning that,
        far as you could tell, these were accurate transcripts
        what you had said.  I will read the sentence and you
        me whether you want to ----
   A.   Excuse me, you just said that I told his Lordship that
        these were accurate transcripts of what I have said.
   Q.   So far as you could tell, I think, yes.  He asked you
   A.   I said with reservation, with the reservation that
some of
        them have been subjected to editing.
   Q.   Well, just let us have a look at this one sentence and
        then you can tell his Lordship whether you think it
        been edited and in some way crafted to misrepresent
        you said?
   A.   The one sentence, yes.
   Q.   The one sentence:  "The biggest lie of the lot, the
        libel on the German people, as I call it", that is
         "is the lie that the Germans had factories of death
        gas chambers in which they liquidated millions of
   A.   That is an accurate transcription of what I said.
   Q.   You did say that?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   And did you regard that proposition, that the Germans
        factories of death with gas chambers, plural, in

.                                      P-229

        which they liquidated millions, plural, of their
        opponents, at this date in November 1991 as a lie?
   A.   A big lie, yes.
   Q.   A big lie?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   It is that proposition, is it not, Mr Irving, which
        people regard as representing not in any accurate or
        meticulous, historical sense, but generally understood
        the Holocaust?
   A.   I disagree with that.  I have made quite plain that in
        mind most people when they think of the Holocaust
think of
        everything they are shown on television.  Mostly
        it is people being made to walk to the edge of a pit
        being bumped off by soldiers holding rifles.  That is
        visual image that people now have.
   Q.   Right.  So that does not represent the Holocaust,
        of people being killed in gas chambers in factories of
   A.   It represents a part of the Holocaust story.
   Q.   So will you please go up the page two paragraphs to
        words "timed at 1213", and explain what you meant by
        you here said?  "If you look at my great Adolf Hitler
        biography here, this bumper Adolf Hitler biography
that we
        have only just published, in fact, it literally
        off the printing process today, you will not find the
        Holocaust mentioned in one line, not even a footnote.

.                                      P-230

        should we?  If something didn't happen, then you don't
        even dignify it with a footnote"?
   A.   That is correct.  The word "The Holocaust" you will
        find in that book.
   Q.   What was the Holocaust that did not happen that you
        to signify by those words?
   A.   The way I then I specify it two paragraphs later which
        the millions being killed in the gas chambers.  This
        it quite plain it is all part of the same story.
   Q.   So what it comes to is that the Holocaust, your own
        words  ----
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   --- has been denied by you, does it not?
   A.   No.  The Holocaust as defined here by me later on, the
        description of people being killed in factories of
        This is the description here which I say you will not
        in the book and you will not find the word "Holocaust"
        the book which you will not, because I think it is
        confusing to use words like that.  I mean, this is
        the confusion has come from, that instead of you
asking me
        a question about the shootings and a question about
        gassings, you are asking a question about a vague
        called "the Holocaust" knowing that you will get me
        way or you will get the other, rather like Mortimer's
        Fork.  I think it would be more forensic if you were
        ask specifically about what you mean rather than ask

.                                      P-231

        vague concepts.
   Q.   Thank you for your advice about how to conduct my case
        court, Mr Irving.  I am grateful for that.  What do
        think was the Holocaust about which Professor Lipstadt
        wrote in her book?
   A.   Which Holocaust are we talking about?
   Q.   I am ----
   A.   The broad definition?
   Q.   --- asking you to answer my question, what is it in
        book that you object to in the words "Holocaust
   A.   The word "denier" that is attached to it.  That is
what I
        object to it.
   Q.   You did not deny the Holocaust in that passage ----
   A.   I denied the gas chambers.  I denied that the Germans
        killed millions in gas chambers and we are going to
have a
        great deal of interest when we get to that phase of
   Q.   How many people do you think -- I mean innocent
        I am not talking about bombing raids, Mr Irving, I
        innocent Jewish people do you think the Germans killed
   A.   You mean like Anne Frank?
   Q.   I do not mind whether they are like Anne Frank or not.
        How many innocent Jewish people ----
   A.   Well, I mean, she is a typical example and a very
        example to take because everybody has heard of Anne

.                                      P-232

        Frank.  She was innocent.  I have daughters of my own
        if what happened to her happened to one of my
daughters, I
        would be extremely angry.
   Q.   Oh, I see, so Mr or Mrs Frank might not have been
        innocent, is that what you are trying to say?
   A.   But I asked you about Anne Frank; I did not ask about
   Q.   No, I am sorry, Mr Irving.  The procedure in this
court is
        that you do not ask questions, I do.  I asked you how
        many  ----
   A.   I did not ask a question.  I just said, I mean, shall
        talk about Anne Frank?
   Q.   No, I do not want to talk about Anne Frank.
   A.   You want to talk about nameless, unspecified Jews so
        later on we can say, "Well, I was not meaning those
        I meant those ones"?  The reason you do not want to
        about Anne Frank, of course, is because she is a Jew
        died in the Holocaust and yet she was not murdered,
        you take the broadest possible definition of murder.
   Q.   Mr Irving, this is becoming somewhat comical.  We will
        to Anne Frank along down the road, I assure you.  She
        part of Professor Evans' report, apart from anything
        for a completely different purpose.
                  I said "deliberately killed".  How many
        Jewish people do you say that the Nazis deliberately
        killed during the course of World War II.  That was my

.                                      P-233

   A.   Now, you heard me say in my opening statement, Mr
        that I am not an expert on the Holocaust.  What I
        now say would be a figure without any value
        It would be just an assessment off the top of my head.
        I can say what did not happen because you can apply
        certain logistical principles, but I cannot say what
        happen.  It would be a waste of this court's time for
        to make an assessment.
   Q.   Let us break down your Holocaust denial then, so far
        you will accept that you have made it.  You dispute
        word "millions"?
   A.   I dispute the word "millions"?
   Q.   Yes.
   A.   No.  I do not think I have disputed the word
   Q.   So "millions" is only wrong so far as the gas chambers
        concerned, is that right?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   So there are no gas chambers, I think we know that, do
   A.   Mr Rampton, if I may, I will not venture a question,
        I will make a statement.  A million people weigh
        tonnes.  We are talking of a major logistical problem
   Q.   We are not -- I think, Mr Irving, we are at
        cross-purposes.  I am trying to understand what it is

.                                      P-234

        you deny, not your reasons for denying it.  That will
        much later on.
   A.   I am denying that any kind of multiples of millions of
        people were killed in the gas chambers at Birkenhau.
   Q.   Articles then of -- no, that is not what you have said
   A.   I am very being very specific which makes it much
        to nail me down.
   Q.   No, "factories of death" is plural.
   A.   Well, there were several factories of death,
allegedly, at
        Birkenhau, the crematoria.
   Q.   What you do you say about Sobibor, Treblinka, Belsac
   A.   Nothing at all.  I am not an expert.
   Q.   Do you deny that they were killed in gas chambers in
   A.   You did not hear what I said, Mr Rampton.  I am not an
   Q.   You have no opinion about that at all?
   A.   Except what I have read from other people.  If other
        people come and tell me that, for example, there is no
        trace of any mass graves at Treblinka even now, then
        I begin to get suspicious about the story.
   Q.   Let me understand it, Mr Irving.  By "factories of
        in this sentence on page 2 of tab 11, you had no
        of including in that phrase "factories of death" the

.                                      P-235

        installations, whatever they were, at Belsac,
        Sobibor or Chelma, is that right?
   A.   Mr Rampton, you are asking me a question about a
        statement I made nine years ago and, if you wish, I
        look to see what the rest of the statement is and I
        tell you which parts of the universe I was talking
        But ----
   Q.   Your answer just now -- it may have been too quick an
        answer; it was not, perhaps, your best answer -- was,
        when I said 'factories of death' here, there were
        factories of death at Birkenhau"?
   A.   Well, I presumed that as we are still talking about
        Auschwitz phase of the cross-examination, you are
        about Auschwitz and Birkenhau.
   Q.   No, I am talking about what I call your Holocaust
        here you write a sentence or you speak a sentence,
        presumably written out before: "The biggest lie of the
        is the lie that the Germans had factories", plural,
        I said that when I read it to you first time, "of
        with gas chambers in which they liquidated millions of
        their opponents"?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Let us get back to the present.  Which of those
        in that statement "factories", plural, "of death with
        chambers", plural, "in which they liquidated
        plural, "of their opponents", which of those elements

.                                      P-236

        you still deny?
   A.   The millions in gas chambers.
   Q.   Yes.
   A.   Because, among other reasons, which we will come to
        on in this trial, the logistical problems for a start.
   Q.   But you do deny it?

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