Article 18387 of alt.revisionism:
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Death Threat Against Revisionist Posted
Message-ID: <1994Oct29.044942.32580@miavx1>
From: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov)
Date: 29 Oct 94 04:49:42 -0500
References: 
Organization: Miami University
Lines: 26

In article , hoffman2nd@delphi.com writes:
> In the alt.revisionism thread >>Goeths Arrest,>> Stephan Schulz, responding to
> revisionist Michael A. Hoffman II, stated:
>>>I wonder what would happen to Hoffman if Hermi would be allowed to kill the
> hopeless psychopaths.<<
>  
> I wonder what would happen to Khazars (or philo-Khazars) like Schulz if, when
> losing a debate, they did something besides summoning the ghosts of Abe Reles,
> Menachem Begin and other august ice-pick pokers and piano-wire wielders? Or

Well Mr. Hoffman#2, perhaps you don't know who Hermann (Hermi) is.

Mr. Hoffman#2, meet Miltie Kleim, the self-avowed Nazi.

Miltie thinks the mentally unfit should be killed, particularly the
insane and feeble-minded.  

I personally think Kleim has a death wish for himself and his fellow
racist dimwits.


=======================================================================
Brian Harmon         "We are most unfair to God: we do not allow
Miami University	   	him to sin.." 
Oxford, Ohio 45056  			-- Friedrich Nietzsche
--------------bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu--------------------------


Article 18390 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Death Threat Against Revisionist Posted
In-Reply-To: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu's message of 29 Oct 94 04:49:42 -0500
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  <1994Oct29.044942.32580@miavx1>
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 1994 05:02:54 GMT
Lines: 18


From: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov)
>Mr. Hoffman#2, meet Miltie Kleim, the self-avowed Nazi.
>
>Miltie thinks the mentally unfit should be killed, particularly the
>insane and feeble-minded.  

And then, of course, the two of them can deny it ever happened...

Unfortunately for them they're both more likely to be the road than
the steamroller.


-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 18391 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Michael Hoffman and "Khazars"
In-Reply-To: schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu's message of 30 Oct 1994 22:30:48 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  <390o1i$dqr@access4.digex.net>
	<5I9WTMU.hoffman2nd@delphi.com> 
	<3916qo$hlm@agate.berkeley.edu>
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 02:17:31 GMT
Lines: 18


Wait a minute, I thought these Khazars were from the Caucasus?

So we have some people here bashing jews in their quest for caucasian
"rights" (Kleim, Savage) and others bashing jews for being caucasians
(Hoffman-sub-2.)

Tough crowd.

	``We has met the enemy and they is us!''

			-Walt Kelly, Pogo

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 18395 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: McVay a "police agent?"
In-Reply-To: hoffman2nd@delphi.com's message of Sat, 29 Oct 94 15:33:10 -0500
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <5s7VBb+.hoffman2nd@delphi.com> <38caba$b4e@access4.digex.net>
	
	<1994Oct25.171818.25559@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
	
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 20:31:40 GMT
Lines: 21


From: hoffman2nd@delphi.com
>She tucked the ten dollar bill under her mattress and pulled up her panties as
>the semen streamed from her pussy.>>

Thank you for your erudite contribution to the conversation, Mr
Hoffman. As always you have provided clear and guiding focus on the
pressing issues of the day and offered much to think about.

Oh, and one other thing: WATCH OUT THE BATS ARE IN THE ROOM WITH YOU
THE ZIONIST BRAIN CONTROLLING BATS ARE GOING TO LAY THEIR EGGS IN YOUR
HAIR WHICH WILL MAKE YOU THEIR SLAVE WATCH OUT WATCH OUT WATCH OUT!!!

This has been a public service announcement.


-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 18396 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: McVay a "police agent?"
In-Reply-To: hoffman2nd@delphi.com's message of Sat, 29 Oct 94 15:36:24 -0500
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <5s7VBb+.hoffman2nd@delphi.com> <38caba$b4e@access4.digex.net>
	 
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 20:34:18 GMT
Lines: 20


From: hoffman2nd@delphi.com
>Shein on!

ah, we are back to making fun of each other's names! I knew we'd find
your level.

>>huge dildos blah blah BLAH blah blah<<

Those were Lyndon "Lynn Marcus" Larouche's words, not mine.

I realize you can't keep the voices in your head straight.



-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 18398 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay a "police agent?"
Date: 29 Oct 1994 21:25:10 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <38uejm$hj9@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References: <5s7VBb+.hoffman2nd@delphi.com> <1994Oct25.171818.25559@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>  <38uedu$hhc@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu


"Revisionist scholar"  wrote:
 
# She tucked the ten dollar bill under her mattress and pulled up her 
# panties as the semen streamed from her pussy.

See, folks, this is what they mean when they say that "Holocaust
revisionism is the great intellectual adventure of the century".

# I aint implying anything McVay. I am saying flat out you is The Man,
# The Heat, The Fuzz; a self-admitted collaborator with  the U.S.
# Dept. of Justice, Office of Special Investigations 

Ken McVay wrote the OSI, and asked for some transcripts of
interrogation of former SS guards at the death camps. He posted
these transcripts on the net, BTW. What is wrong with that? There
is nothing secret about these transcripts, and nothing wrong
with anyone asking to see them. It's the same as going to a library
and looking for material there. What's your problem, Hoffman old boy?


-Danny Keren.



Article 49365 of alt.conspiracy:
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From: sundell@tezcat.com (Lou Menotti)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Swiss Solar Temple Suicide:The Catholic Connection
Date: 30 Oct 1994 04:09:54 -0600
Organization: Tezcat.COM, Chicago
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <38vrdi$2em@xochi.tezcat.com>
References:  <38juj1$6fm@net.auckland.ac.nz>
NNTP-Posting-Host: xochi.tezcat.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]

blue wonder (blue@auckland.blowfish.nz) wrote:
: they were all victims of malicious cimcumstance.

: and money washing

: and the pope was involved

: twice

: bob


Well, that much, I suppose, has been established.  I was hoping to glean 
a bit more.  (Forgive me if I'm a johnny-come-lately on this thread.)

By "the pope", do you refer (also?) to the Propaganda Due lodge?  Those 
fun-loving guys have also long been involved in money laundering, drugs, 
assassinations, mind control and (ahem) god knows what.  And much of that 
was in cahoots with/with the blessings our own party-hounds, the CIA.


Do you (or anyone else out there--hiya) have any background on this cult 
or whatsisname who was the PooBah of the deal?  Perchance, even sources 
in the Euro press?  (These I could go look up at my poor excuse for a 
local library.)  ...Just askin.

Pax

-- Lou


Article 18438 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu!miavx1!bpharmon
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay a "police agent?"
Message-ID: <1994Oct31.010858.32693@miavx1>
From: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov)
Date: 31 Oct 94 01:08:58 -0500
References: <5s7VBb+.hoffman2nd@delphi.com> <38caba$b4e@access4.digex.net>   
Organization: Miami University
Lines: 13

In article , hoffman2nd@delphi.com writes:
>>>Police agent, Mr. Hoffman?What evidence do you have for such nonsense?What
> are you trying to imply?<<
(deletia)

Mr. Hoffman #2, take it to alt.sex or something, this isn't a porno 
group.

=======================================================================
Brian Harmon           "How much trouble could a couple of 
Miami University	  scientists get into anyway?"
Oxford, Ohio 45056  		-- Marc Singer, _Dead Space_
--------------bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu--------------------------


Article 18443 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!mnemosyne.cs.du.edu!nyx10.cs.du.edu!not-for-mail
From: choover@nyx10.cs.du.edu (Christopher Hoover)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
Date: 31 Oct 1994 00:29:58 -0700
Organization: University of Denver, Math/CS Dept.
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <3926dm$eo1@nyx10.cs.du.edu>
References: <5KxVTkQ.hoffman2nd@delphi.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: nyx10.cs.du.edu
X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #3 (NOV)

hoffman2nd@delphi.com writes:

[and writes, and writes, and writes, until we get to this puzzling entry:]


>The Nasty Girl. A noble Jewish merchant is murdered by evil Christians.

*blink*

Huh?  I have to wonder if Mr. Hoffman2nd has ever _seen_ _The Nasty 
Girl_.  A German school girl, played wonderfully by Lena Stolze, sets 
out, quite innocently, to write an essay on "My Home Town During the 
Third Reich," because she's always been told that _her_ town resisted.

The Joos are controlling German cinema now?  Incredible.

>Northern Exposures. Features the charming Jewish doctor Joel Fleischman, M.D., a
>lovable curmudgeon (TV Guide).

You mean Fleischman is supposed to be "charming" and "lovable?"  And here
I always thought he was spoiled and self-absorbed.  Next thing, Mr. 
Hoffman2nd will tell us Ed Chigliak isn't really Indian.... 


Time for Mr. Hoffman2nd's maintenance dose,

Chris
-- 
Christopher J. Hoover    choover@nyx.cs.du.edu     Kibo flavor:  Unlisted
Disclaimer:  standard    It's *always* September, *somewhere* on the Net.


Article 18444 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dannya@xs4all.nl (Danny A. Nijburg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 10:34:45
Organization: XS4ALL, networking for the masses
Lines: 52
Message-ID: 
References: <5KxVTkQ.hoffman2nd@delphi.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: slip132-23.xs4all.nl
X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev A]

In article <5KxVTkQ.hoffman2nd@delphi.com> hoffman2nd@delphi.com writes:
>From: hoffman2nd@delphi.com
>Subject: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
>Date: Sun, 30 Oct 94 13:44:40 -0500

>    HATE PROPAGANDA
>   in a Human Rights Mask
>   Compiled by Michael A. Hoffman II. 1994. All Rights Reserved
> 
> 
> A documented compendium of hundreds of mendacious movies and TV programs,
>promulgated under the guise of advancing human rights, while negatively
>stereotyping, defaming and libeling Germans and Muslims and advocating the
>servile idolization and adoration of Jews.
> 

[Long list deleted to save bandwith, see original !]

Mr Hoffmann,
could you please add data on these films.
Who made them and when ?
I would like to see some of them.

> 
> 
> 
>The  following is a list of movies and TV programs concerning the Bolshevik Mass
>Murder of 60 Million Russian Christians perpetrated by such top Jewish
>communists as Trostsky, Apfelbaum (Zinoviev), Uritsky, Kamenev, Berman, Yagoda,
>Frenkel, Kaganovich and Kuhn and on the hunt for Jewish communist war criminals:
>NONE.
> 
>  The Following is a List of Movie and TV Programs on the Mass Murder of
>Palestinian Women and Children by the Israeli Armed Forces: One: Beirut to
>Bosnia, described by Walter Goodman in the NY Times as ...probably
>simplistic...stir(s) unease about the selection and use of evidence (April 27,
>1994, p. C-18).
> 

[Commercial deleted]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

                                         /\\\\           
Danny A. Nijburg                         (@|@)          
--------------------------------------ooO-(v)-Ooo-----
Victorieplein 47-2                        ~%~          
1078 PD Amsterdam- The Netherlands                                         
Phone/Fax +31 20 671 7711             Do unto others.....


Article 18449 of alt.revisionism:
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From: t08o@adrastea.sun.csd.unb.ca (Morrison)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
Date: 30 Oct 1994 21:43:02 GMT
Organization: University of New Brunswick, Fredericton, NB, Canada
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <391416$krt@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>
References: <5KxVTkQ.hoffman2nd@delphi.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: adrastea.sun.csd.unb.ca

Hey, it's a game we can all play!  Mr Hoffman forgot such propaganda
films as:

Naked Gun, Naked Gun 33 1/3 The Smell of Fear:
  Evil mastermind with the Germanic-type name of Pap Schmeer fought by
  a stupid white detective.

The Evil Dead, The Evil Dead 2, Army of Darkness
  Notice how all them zombies was white?

Dawn of the Dead
  The only survivors were a black man and his sex-slave white woman

Star Trek: The Next Generation
  An entire civilization of colored people (the Klingons) are portrayed
  as powerful warriors while the mostly-white Federation are wimps.

In Living Color
  Only *2* white comedians in the cast, one who portrays a stupid *white*
  firefighter who is continually destroying things

Long Dong Silver
  Black men are portrayed as sexually superior to Aryan white males

------------------------------------------------------------
Keith Morrison

The ROTFL Quote of the Week:

McVay is a spy for O.S.I. official Eli Rosenbaum and others of his ilk who seek
to deport and imprison elderly anti-communists but who never investigate or
prosecute Khazar communists living or traveling in the U.S. who were responsible
for atrocities and war crimes against the peasants of Russia and Eastern Europe.
                                - Michael A. Hoffman II


************************************************************
*t08o@unb.ca  *  My views are not those of the University  *
***************  of New Brunswick.  UNB never has views on *
*             *  on anything, ever.                        *
************************************************************
 


Article 18450 of alt.revisionism:
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From: t08o@adrastea.sun.csd.unb.ca (Morrison)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
Date: 30 Oct 1994 22:03:53 GMT
Organization: University of New Brunswick, Fredericton, NB, Canada
Lines: 64
Message-ID: <391589$ln1@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>
References: <5KxVTkQ.hoffman2nd@delphi.com> <391416$krt@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: adrastea.sun.csd.unb.ca

...and in a slightly more serious vein, what does Mr. Hoffman have to
say about shows such as:

Law and Order:

Has shown episodes with Jewish criminals, Jewish racism against blacks,
black racism against Jews, corrupt black politicians, fanatical black
civil-rights leaders, corrupt Jewish politicians and lawyers, etc


I'm sure that if we really wanted to, everyone of us could come up with
an impressive list of movies that made disparaging comments about some
ethnic group.  And as a final note, I'm sure Mr. Hoffman will happily
present a list of films and shows that have made commentary on the evils
of communism, or where communists have been presented as being evil, or
where the threat of communism is implied, or where communists have been
made to look stupid.  Just to assist him, I'll start the list:

Almost all the James Bond Films
Almost all the episodes of "Mission Impossible"
Several episodes of "Voyage Under the Sea"
Almost all the episodes of "Tour of Duty"
"Invasion of the Body Snatchers" (the original)
Several episodes of "The Man From UNCLE"
HBO's film "Stalin"
"Red Dawn"
"Invasion USA"
"The Day After"
"Red Scorpion"
"Black Eagle"
"Young Doctors in Love"
"Rambo, First Blood Part II"
"First Blood Part III"
"Missing in Action"
"Missing in Action II"
"Missing in Action III"
"The Spy Who Came In From the Cold"
"Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy"
Several episodes of "X-Files"
"The Naked Gun"
etc etc etc

Get a life, Hoffman, and stop finding conspiracies in everything around
you (Did anyone catch that Sesame Street entry?  Sheesh)

---------------------------------------------------------------

Keith Morrison

The ROTFL Quote of the Week:

McVay is a spy for O.S.I. official Eli Rosenbaum and others of his ilk who seek
to deport and imprison elderly anti-communists but who never investigate or
prosecute Khazar communists living or traveling in the U.S. who were responsible
for atrocities and war crimes against the peasants of Russia and Eastern Europe.
                                - Michael A. Hoffman II


************************************************************
*t08o@unb.ca  *  My views are not those of the University  *
***************  of New Brunswick.  UNB never has views on *
*             *  on anything, ever.                        *
************************************************************


Article 18457 of alt.revisionism:
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From: schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richard Schultz)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ooo! Can I play too? (Hollywood Hate Propaganda)
Date: 31 Oct 1994 13:00:03 GMT
Organization: Philosophers of the Dangerous Maybe
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <392poj$5ma@agate.berkeley.edu>
References: <5KxVTkQ.hoffman2nd@delphi.com> <39191d$ioo@agate.berkeley.edu> <391qqn$t0b@netaxs.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article <391qqn$t0b@netaxs.com>, Brian Trosko  wrote:

>Oh yes. Actually, The Three Stooges was also omitted from the above list, 
>as it was the first American tv show to promote German hate-propaganda by 
>making fun of those evil pratfalling Nazis. For shame.

Although I have never been a particular fan of the Three Stooges, their
famous short did occur to me after I sent in my previous message on this
thread.  And, of course, until the advent of Curly Joe, the Three Stooges
personnel was entirely Jewish.

I also thought of another movie for The List.

Top Secret! (with Val Kilmer).  Saintly American hero saves the
world from evil degenerate Nazi plan to take over the world.  Also
features stereotyping of Germans who cheat at sports ("and now the
East German women's swim team" -- beefy guys in drag).  And by far
the best joke in the film is in Yiddish.

	Richard "September 30th?  But that's Simchas Torah!" Schultz


Article 18460 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Re: Put up or shut up, Mr. Hoffman
References: <1994Oct31.191037.9576@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> <5W7Vjiu.hoffman2nd@delphi.com>
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1994Nov03.151426.4482@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Thu, 03 Nov 94 15:14:26 GMT

In article <5W7Vjiu.hoffman2nd@delphi.com> hoffman2nd@delphi.com writes:

>No, Mr. McVay you have not responded to the charge. You have not answered
>my detailed questions on your position on your government and your human
>rights (so-called) groups and your Canadian Zionist establishment's policy
>of prosecuting and seeking to imprison Zundel and Keegstra and to jail,
>deport and ban writer David Irving. Will you kindly go on record herein

I have made my position clear with regard to Canadian law, Mr.
Hoffman.

By the way, your BSI cannot be improved by further displays of oral
incontinence. It is determined solely by the span of time within
which the spittle originally flows, which is then compared with
Friedrich Berg's record.


-- 
   /^\__/^\                 The Old Frog's Almanac 
  / @    @ \     A Salute to That Old Frog Himse'f, Ryugen Fisher
 (          )       Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada
  \  ~~~~  /               


Article 18462 of alt.revisionism:
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From: btrosko@netaxs.com (Brian Trosko)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
Date: 2 Nov 1994 03:11:40 GMT
Organization: The Trilateral Commission
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <39701c$q5d@netaxs.com>
References: <5KxVTkQ.hoffman2nd@delphi.com> <30OCT199415301260@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>  <31OCT199423032542@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu> <396djq$2ia@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: unix3.netaxs.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]

Morrison (t08o@amalthea.sun.csd.unb.ca) wrote:

: And speaking of The Simpsons, he obviously missed the episode that
: maligned the Germans by showing them as businessmen concerned with
: safety, efficiency and results.  Maybe they were acting too Joosh
: for Herr Hoffman's fancy...

kAs well as the episode where the Simpson clan attended a car show. The 
German car corporation was showing a film of its crash-testing.  After 
the crash, one crash dummy opens the door and attempts to crawl away.

Lisa: Hey! That's not a dummy!
German: Zis exhibit is now closed!



Brian "Propoganda, plain and simple" Trosko


Article 18463 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Killing of Bernadotte
Date: 31 Oct 1994 06:56 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 16
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <31OCT199406565936@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References:  
NNTP-Posting-Host: misvms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article , hoffman2nd@delphi.com writes...

>Of course the subject of Germans acting abominably has endless
>fascination and >>relevance<< for the anti-Goyites who imagine that
>they are the commissars of proper content in alt.revisionism.

    Other than the >>Nazis<< who committed holocaust crimes, what
    abominable German acts have been discussed in this group?

    Who here is an >>anti-goyite?<<  Many of my >>best friends<< are goys!

    (Hey, this bracketing stuff sure is fun!  I hardly feel a need for my
    drugs today now that I have done some >>bracketing<<)

===========================================================================
daniel david mittleman     -     danny@arizona.edu     -     (602) 621-2932


Article 18464 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!swiss.ans.net!news.dfn.de!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!stepsun.uni-kl.de!uklirb.informatik.uni-kl.de!informatik.uni-kl.de!stschulz
From: stschulz@informatik.uni-kl.de (Stephan Schulz)
Subject: Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
Message-ID: <1994Nov1.231549.317@uklirb.informatik.uni-kl.de>
Sender: news@uklirb.informatik.uni-kl.de (Unix-News-System)
Nntp-Posting-Host: isis.informatik.uni-kl.de
Organization: University of Kaiserslautern, Germany
References: <5KxVTkQ.hoffman2nd@delphi.com> <3926dm$eo1@nyx10.cs.du.edu> 
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 23:15:49 GMT
Lines: 40

In article , hoffman2nd@delphi.com writes:
|> Christopher Hoover  writes:
|>  
|> >The Joos are controlling German cinema now?  Incredible.
|>  
|> In the Deutsche Banana Republic one goes to prison for doubting the existence
|> of homicidal gas chambers in Auschwitz. [...]

If you are talking about the Federal Republik of Germany (the only
German state left, as far as I know), you are obviously not very good
informed.

You can doubt whatever you want in Germany. You can also (still)
publically or privatly deny the Holocaust without getting in any
conflict with the law. Of course, Holocaust deniers have been
persecuted in Germany, but not for denying the Holocaust but, usually,
for "Incitement of racial Hate". ("No Jew died at Auschwitz. But they
should have. Now go, kill them - and all the Turks, Niggers and Homos,
too."). 

There is a new law (which I do not approve of, BTW), which has passed
the legislation and will become effective anytime soon (sorry, I did
not look up the exact date. It will forbid public denial of the
Holocaust. I think this is an overactive stupidity, but then the Swizz
decided to enact a similar law in a public vote...no IJC bugging the
representatives there.

One intersting factoid: If I remember correctly, the German
constitution does not protect "Free Speech" (Freie Rede), but (among
other things) "Free uttering of opinion" (Freie
Meinungsaeuserung). Thus formally the more intelligent half of the
revisionists are not protected :-)


Stephan

-------------------------- It can be done! ---------------------------------
    Please email me as stschulz@informatik.uni-kl.de (Stephan Schulz)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------



Article 18465 of alt.revisionism:
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From: flax@aristotle.algonet.se (Jonas Flygare)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Put up or shut up, Mr. Hoffman
Date: 01 Nov 1994 19:01:03 GMT
Organization: AlgoNet Public Access Node, Stockholm
Lines: 26
Message-ID: 
References: <1994Oct31.191037.9576@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> <5W7Vjiu.hoffman2nd@delphi.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: aristotle.algonet.se
In-reply-to: hoffman2nd@delphi.com's message of Tue, 1 Nov 94 05:52:06 -0500

In article <5W7Vjiu.hoffman2nd@delphi.com> hoffman2nd@delphi.com writes:

	Ken Mcvay  writes:

	>On October 26, 1994, I responded to this baseless charge by asking you

	No, Mr. McVay you have not responded to the charge. You have not answered
	my detailed questions on your position on your government and your human
	rights (so-called) groups and your Canadian Zionist establishment's policy
	of prosecuting and seeking to imprison Zundel and Keegstra and to jail,
	deport and ban writer David Irving. Will you kindly go on record herein
	condemning the horrid Canadian-Zionist policy of prosecuting publishers,
	teachers and writers? Will you write to the relevant Canadian authorities
	like S. Littman, S. Citron and the government of Canada, protesting this
	inquisition? What is the position of the Pharisee-worshipping church that
	pays you on this issue?

	Kindly >>put up or shut up.<<


Say, do you still beat your wife?
--
Safe PGP key fingerprint =  A7 FA 4D 35 73 0E DB 65  69 D5 D4 E1 02 E6 91 E2 
Unix PGP key fingerprint =  0D 22 64 4D 05 35 53 BA  83 56 7B 56 C6 61 D4 A7 
DNA sequence fingerprint =  0E 21 45 FA 7A 11 34 FE  ED DE AD BE EF 8F 10 71
DNA copyright 1962 - 1994 by Jonas Flygare, Copyright yours before IBM does.


Article 18467 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Can you help this boy?
References: <1994Oct31.191037.9576@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> <5W7Vjiu.hoffman2nd@delphi.com> 
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1994Nov03.205236.7100@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Thu, 03 Nov 94 20:52:36 GMT

In article  flax@aristotle.algonet.se (Jonas Flygare) writes:

>In article <5W7Vjiu.hoffman2nd@delphi.com> hoffman2nd@delphi.com writes:

>No, Mr. McVay you have not responded to the charge. You have not answered
>my detailed questions on your position on your government and your human
>rights (so-called) groups and your Canadian Zionist establishment's policy
>of prosecuting and seeking to imprison Zundel and Keegstra and to jail,
>deport and ban writer David Irving. Will you kindly go on record herein
>condemning the horrid Canadian-Zionist policy of prosecuting publishers,
>teachers and writers? Will you write to the relevant Canadian authorities
>like S. Littman, S. Citron and the government of Canada, protesting this
>inquisition? What is the position of the Pharisee-worshipping church that
>pays you on this issue?

Isn't it cute, the way Hoffie tries to avoid the original issue,
which was whether or not I supported the "Canadian inquisition"
[which in itself demonstrated Hoffie's ignorance of Canadian juris
prudence, but that's another tale] vis a vis a gaggle of hate
mongers and one pseudo-historian? Apparently, there is something
about the word "no" that confuses the lad... which syllable was it,
do you think?

Truly, if Freddy Berg ever had a student, Hoffie must have been the
star... Wouldn't he make a _lovely_ poster boy for the 1995 International 
Joosh Conspiracy funding drive?

("Help Hoffie's Book Sales in Canada, and strengthen the Zionist
Plot to Gain Sympathy Through Exposure of Prime Bergish Ranting!")

>Say, do you still beat your wife?

If not, there's a skinhead lovely in alt.skinheads offering to breed
with Aryan males - I think I'll send her Hoffie's email address..
she sounds _just_ like what the boy needs... a young (17),
relatively stupid, female, willing to mate with anything calling
itself "Aryan," for the expressed purpose of creating dozens of
Little Hoffies... the mind boggles :-)


Ken McVay

(Who, when admonishing his bassett hound not to pee on the carpet,
entirely forgot to tell him to write letters to Etta Goering
complaining about the Dreaded Zionist Conspiracy to Ban Hoffie's
Book So He Couldn't Make As Much Off the Holocaust Industry As He'd
Planned. Damned hound probably wouldn't have spelled "II" correctly
anyway, so dear Etta would have helped the wrong Mikey; and who
overlooked the obvious need to further direct the hound to canvass
the neighborhood seeking "donations" for Hoffie's "research" rag,
thus neglecting his duty to Truth, Honour, and The Aryan Way of
Making Even More Money Off the Pain of Innocents... some days, it
just doesn't pay to get up in the morning...)

"Can you help this boy? Little Hoffie suffers from Berg's Spittle
Complex, but it can be cured! Send your donations to the IJC, c/o
ZOG Local 1205, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada"

-- 
   /^\__/^\                 The Old Frog's Almanac 
  / @    @ \     A Salute to That Old Frog Himse'f, Ryugen Fisher
 (          )       Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada
  \  ~~~~  /               



Article 18472 of alt.revisionism:
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From: erd@regent.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de (Eric Doenges)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
Date: 31 Oct 1994 16:19:01 +0100
Organization: Technical University of Munich, Germany
Lines: 132
Message-ID: <3931t5$gr3@residuum.regent.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de>
References: <5KxVTkQ.hoffman2nd@delphi.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: residuum.regent.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de

hoffman2nd@delphi.com writes:

>    HATE PROPAGANDA
>   in a Human Rights Mask
>   Compiled by Michael A. Hoffman II. 1994. All Rights Reserved
> 
> 
> A documented compendium of hundreds of mendacious movies and TV programs,
>promulgated under the guise of advancing human rights, while negatively
>stereotyping, defaming and libeling Germans and Muslims and advocating the
>servile idolization and adoration of Jews.

Let's look at this list to highlight some error:

>The Eagle Has Landed. Evil Germans plot to kidnap Englands Prime Minister.

This should read: Heroic Falschirmj"agers' plot to kidnap Churchhill fails
because one heroic Falschirmj"ager exposes his identity while saving a British
child, dying heroically while doing this. Noble Germans, cornered in a church
by American soldiers, let their British civilian hostages go before the
Americans storm the church. This movie hardly qualifies as "Anti-German"

>The Odessa File. A blood-thirsty German war criminal and the powerful network
>that protects him create havoc.

And are stopped by a German journalist, who is motivated because his father, a
Wehrmacht officer, was murdered by the war criminal.

>Raiders of the Lost Ark. Stephen Spielberg's film about evil Germans pitted
>against a brave archaeologist.

If you took this movie seriously enough to believe it is anti-German, you need
to have your head examined. The characters are stereotyped enough to come right
out of the 30s - and I believe this was intentional.

>A Bridge Too Far. Director Joseph E. Levine's drama of the Allied struggle
>against evil Germans.

A good war movie, IMHO, that doesn't portray Germans as particulary evil -
only somewhat stupid.

>Murphys War. Savage German murderers run amok in South America.

A good war movie about two fanatics, the allied fanatic more fanatic than the
German sub-commander (who is really only concerned with the safety of his
ship and crew). The allied fanatic sinks the German sub and himself even though
he knows Germany has just surrendered, and the German captain has offered a
cease-fire. Not anti-German, anti-war.

>Sword of Gideon. Heroic Israeli intelligence agents hunt vicious Arab
>terrorists.
And are plagued with moral qualms afterwards, if I remember correctly.

>Black Sunday. Vicious Arab terrorists threaten the Super Bowl.
I only read the book. Pretty good, actually.

>In the Line of Duty: Manhunt in the Dakotas. Heroic government agents hunt
>down Gordon Kahl, an evil White Christian farmer who refuses to pay taxes and
>who is "a murderous true-life religious fanatic with schizophrenic
>tendencies" (TV Guide ).
The hunt is on after Kahl murders government agents. But we all know that
patriotic Americans have the right to kill government officials.

>Misery. Directed by Rob Reiner. A hideously evil White Christian country girl
>tortures a  writer from New York City. When he finally escapes she gets her
>just desserts as he beats her ugly White face in. Academy Award-Best Actress.
I don't see where this movie fits in the list. The woman is obviously a mental
case. No religious/racial angle there.

>Cape Fear. (1991). A monstrously evil, Bible-quoting, Southern Pentecostal
>Christian-murderer terrorizes women and children.
Only the man is an ex-inmate who has nothing whatsoever to do with any
religion.

>Yentl. The glories of Jewish heritage and the noble religious spirituality of
>the Talmud are celebrated in this tale of a heroic Jewish girl determined to
>study at a yeshiva.

So ? The film deals with the problems a Jewish woman has studying the talmud -
from Jewish men, not gentiles. Shouldn't be in this list either.


You forgot two of my favourites -

Daffy Duck - Daffy is a lowly allied courier captured by a female german spy.

Three little pigs - the three little pigs battle the evil Hitler-Wolf.
 
>            Authors Note
>Believe it or not, there yet remain to be documented hundreds of additional hate
>films, some of which were broadcast as individual episodes of TV series; and of
>course new ones are constantly in production. April of 1994 probably set a
>record for massive overkill broadcast of Holocaust propaganda on TV. The
>corpus of these teleplays, movies and infotainment documentaries comprise a
>genre which constitutes the most massive and negative stereotyping of people  in
>the annals of propaganda, while at the same time representing an unprecedented
>idolization of a Master Race (Jews).

You did leave out all those cold war movies where the Ruskies and their
sattelites are the bad guys - maybe you approve of such "hate films"

>   That this stereotyping process is presented attired in the habiliments of
>human rights cant is indicative of how close we have come to the Orwellian
>system of corporate mass mind control foretold in 1984. This was well
>demonstrated by the NY Times criticism of the only film to be nationally
>televised in the U.S. which effectively exposed Israeli war crimes.
> The Times declared that Beirut to Bosnia, ...stir(s) unease about the
>selection and use of evidence. No such unease is ever voiced by establishment
>mouthpieces over the selection and use of evidence in the hundreds of
>Holocaust shows thus far aired.
> Indeed, the slobbering hymn of sychophancy the NY Times composed for Mr.
>Spielbergs Schindlers List never bothered to note the historical fact that
>Commandant Amon Goeth, the movies chief bad guy, was arrested and imprisoned by
>the SS Judiciary for the murder and abuse of prisoners and economic crimes of
>corruption. Spielberg withheld this vital information from his audience, thereby
>producing not  history but ever more partisan  fantasy. The logic of the New
>World Order consists in the dogma that the propaganda war against us is a human
>rights campaign while our defense against it, is a form of hate. As Orwell
>foretold, War is Peace.
>  Until  a balance can be struck, the record of lies and group libel will be
>documented in current and successive editions of this report. Wiswell Ruffin
>House wishes to print several thousand copies of this edition for mass
>distribution. We can at least for now remind the world that the cinematic hatred
>directed against us under the guise of fighting hatred is the most cynical and
>despicable hate propaganda of all.      -Michael A. Hoffman II, June, 1994

--
                                                                          (__)
     _/_/_/ _/_/   _/_/                                                   (oo)
    _/     _/ _/  _/ _/  Eric Doenges                             /--------\/
   _/_/   _/_/   _/ _/   (erd@regent.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de)   * o|     ||
  _/     _/ _/  _/ _/                                               ||----||


Article 18475 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Re: Hoffman Hate Propaganda Documented
References: <5KxVTkQ.hoffman2nd@delphi.com> <3931t5$gr3@residuum.regent.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de>
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1994Nov04.000714.9552@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Fri, 04 Nov 94 00:07:14 GMT

In article <3931t5$gr3@residuum.regent.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de> erd@regent.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de (Eric Doenges) writes:

>hoffman2nd@delphi.com writes:

>>    HATE PROPAGANDA



>>stereotyping, defaming and libeling Germans and Muslims and advocating the
>>servile idolization and adoration of Jews.



>Let's look at this list to highlight some error:

[Devastating exposure of Hoffman's intellectual failures deleted]

You overlooked one important reality: Hoffie isn't _interested_ in
facts - he's selling his book, and his "research" rag, and trying to
make money by spreading racial hatred and maximizing Jewish pain.

-- 
   /^\__/^\                 The Old Frog's Almanac 
  / @    @ \     A Salute to That Old Frog Himse'f, Ryugen Fisher
 (          )       Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada
  \  ~~~~  /               


Article 18477 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
Date: 31 Oct 1994 23:10 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 11
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <31OCT199423103282@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <5KxVTkQ.hoffman2nd@delphi.com> <3931t5$gr3@residuum.regent.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: misvms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

    Mr. Hoffman,

    You fail to appreciate the difference between anti-Nazi movies (which
    cast Nazis as evil or as stupid) and anti-German movies.

    I submit that while there are many many anti-Nazi movies (and it just
    so happens that the Nazis were a small subset of Germans) there are
    very few genericly anti-German movies.

===========================================================================
daniel david mittleman     -     danny@arizona.edu     -     (602) 621-2932


Article 18483 of alt.revisionism:
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From: philip@cs.brandeis.edu (Philip Trauring)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Death Threat Against Revisionist Posted
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Wed, 02 Nov 1994 12:18:58 -0500
Organization: Brandeis University
Lines: 27
Message-ID: 
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.64.123.61

In article , hoffman2nd@delphi.com wrote:

> I wonder what would happen to Khazars (or philo-Khazars) like Schulz if, when
> losing a debate, they did something besides summoning the ghosts of Abe Reles,
> Menachem Begin and other august ice-pick pokers and piano-wire wielders? Or
> perhaps Schulz draws his inspiration from the continuing presence in this mortal
> realm of Shitsack Shamir, architect of the murder of the 53 year old U.N.
> diplomat Folke Bernadotte on Sept. 17, 1948? (Bernadotte had rescued hundreds > of Khazars during World War Two).

First of all, I would like your sources on calling Jews Khazars. It's a
great theory(Come on, Al Sharpton likes it) and I'd like some proof for it.
Althoguh I beleive there was a Khazar nation, and that it did primarily
convert to Judaism, to say that all Jews are Khazars is a bit absurd.

> This too was the >>argument<< meted to University of Lyon Professor of
> Literature Robert Faurisson, who was nearly beaten to death by three agents of
> Betar, the Israeli terrorist gang, just because Faurisson wrote books and
> articles the Israelis could not answer.

Actually Betar is a mainstream youth organization, and by no stretch of the
imagination could it be considered a terrorist gang. In Israel it is
associated with the Herut party which is the major party in the opposition
coalition. What exactly is your source that it was a group of Betar
members?

     Philip Trauring
     Brandeis University


Article 18487 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Michael Hoffman Grows Himself an Even Longer Nose
Date: 2 Nov 1994 16:49:31 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 60
Message-ID: <3991hb$hmq@access4.digex.net>
References:   <394i26$l8r@access4.digex.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article ,   wrote:
>Michael Stein writes:
>>>I never said anything was wrong with Hoffmans Hebrew! What I said was 
>this on 2nd Oct.: >>Your knowledge of Hebrew and Yiddish phrases is truly 
>impressive. I wonder if it is as comprehensive as my knowledge of 
>martial arts--I know jiu-jitsu, judo, aikido and several other Japanese 
>words.<< 

>This certainly is a way of saying there is something wrong with my Hebrew. 
>It is a way of mockingly saying I have no knowledge of it.

    Congratulations on coming up with a weasel that's not too transparent,
but weasel it is.  Saying I suspect you are a parrot who only knows
phrases, not the whole language, does not say there is anything wrong with
the phrases you parroted.  Therefore it cannot give you the basis you
claimed for saying there is anything wrong with *my* Hebrew.  Thanks for
playing; please try again. 


>Moreover, as Mr. Stein admits, my reply >>Your Hebrew is not too great<< 
>came the next day, Oct. 3, so how could I have been referring to 
>anything else except the Oct. 2 statement of Stein?

    How indeed?  Yet that's not what you said in your previous post.  You
*explicitly* mentioned *classical* Hebrew.  That concept was not brought
into the discussion until three weeks later - by *me*.  Try again,
Pinocchio. 


>Stein says:
>>>Hoffman is telling alt.revisionism readers that the reason for his criticism
>of my Hebrew was a comment I HAD NOT MADE YET!<<
> 
>Stein has forgotten that this was his schtick in the thread >>Hoffman Should
>Grow Himself a Pair of Testicles,<< not mine. No amount of Talmudic
>dissimulation is going to change that fact.

    Huh?  The words are English, the sentences parse, but the logical 
point is utterly incomprehensible.

    Hoffman would *like* people to forget he claimed my Hebrew was not
great based on a reason which didn't exist at the time he made the claim. 
However, he did make such a claim.  He is therefore a proven liar.  No
amount of further lying is going to change that fact. 

    Mr. Hoffman, I caught you lying.  Period.  You know it, I know it, and
everyone who read my previous post knows it.  Grow yourself a pair of 
testicles and admit it like a mensch. 


>[complaints about censorship deleted]

    As I have said elsewhere, I wouldn't *dream* of censoring you.  I
agree with Ken - I want *everyone* to see such a shining example of the
integrity and mental stability of revisionism.  In fact, if you didn't
exist, we in the IJC would have had to invent you.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 18490 of alt.revisionism:
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From: t08o@amalthea.sun.csd.unb.ca (Morrison)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
Date: 1 Nov 1994 21:57:14 GMT
Organization: University of New Brunswick, Fredericton, NB, Canada
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <396djq$2ia@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>
References: <5KxVTkQ.hoffman2nd@delphi.com> <30OCT199415301260@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>  <31OCT199423032542@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: amalthea.sun.csd.unb.ca

From: dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Message-ID: <31OCT199423032542@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu>

>    I am curious, why did you omit Hogan's Heroes from your list?

Probably because even the German Commandant and the guards such as
Schultz, bumbling and incompetent idiots they were, did not particularily
like the SS, the Gestapo or even Hitler.  Note the expression of 
distaste everytime Colonel Klink was forced to salute and say 
"Heil Hitler".  And Schultz numerous times looked away when the prisoners
were pulling some of their stunts, especially where die-hard Nazis
were involved.

I can't believe I'm analysing the show, but then Herr Hoffman the Second
insists The Simpsons is a vehicle for anti-German propoganda.

And speaking of The Simpsons, he obviously missed the episode that
maligned the Germans by showing them as businessmen concerned with
safety, efficiency and results.  Maybe they were acting too Joosh
for Herr Hoffman's fancy...

---------------------------------------------------------------

Keith Morrison

************************************************************
*t08o@unb.ca  *  My views are not those of the University  *
***************  of New Brunswick.  UNB never has views on *
*             *  on anything, ever.                        *
************************************************************

Article 18506 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!torn!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!uunet!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
In-Reply-To: t08o@adrastea.sun.csd.unb.ca's message of 30 Oct 1994 21:43:02 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <5KxVTkQ.hoffman2nd@delphi.com> <391416$krt@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 00:30:03 GMT
Lines: 13


And don't forget "Triumph of the Will" directed by Leni Riefenstahl
which portrays Nazis as a bunch of megalomaniac loons obsessed with
the 1936 Olympic Games in Berlin and other strange master-race
fantasies.

(hint: it was commissioned by Hitler.)

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 18508 of alt.revisionism:
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From: t08o@amalthea.sun.csd.unb.ca (Morrison)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
Date: 1 Nov 1994 21:48:42 GMT
Organization: University of New Brunswick, Fredericton, NB, Canada
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <396d3q$pp@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>
References: <5KxVTkQ.hoffman2nd@delphi.com> <391416$krt@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca> <391589$ln1@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: amalthea.sun.csd.unb.ca

In article ,   wrote:
>Morrison  writes:
> 
>>I'm sure that if we really wanted to, everyone of us could come up with
>>an impressive list of movies that made disparaging comments about some
>>ethnic group.  And as a final note, I'm sure Mr. Hoffman will happily
> 
>I would very much like to see such a list. I doubt it would be one-tenth
>the size of the anti-German hate propaganda that has been distributed.
>Heaping filth on the German people is the national pastime of Hollywood.
> 
>>ethnic group.  And as a final note, I'm sure Mr. Hoffman will happily
>>present a list of films and shows that have made commentary on the evils
>>of communism, or where communists have been presented as being evil, or
>>where the threat of communism is implied, or where communists have been
>>made to look stupid.  Just to assist him, I'll start the list:
> 
>Gosh, when you get desperate you certainly grasp at some specious straws. It is
>absurd for you to put some generic anti-communist films that cite no specific
>nationality or ethnicity consistently as evil with the massive corpus of
>specifically anti-German hate films. I guess you are trying to find an
>equivalence but there is none. The hate-the-Germans cinematic genre is so
>massive it is unprecedented.

Oh, right, and among those masterpieces of ant-German propoganda
you listed were some such as "Misery", "Cape Fear", which 
*your own description* states have absolutely nothing to do with
Germans, Nazis or Judaism.

So don't flail away at me, you hypocritical twit, for proposing
that you find out how many films made communism look bad.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Keith Morrison

************************************************************
*t08o@unb.ca  *  My views are not those of the University  *
***************  of New Brunswick.  UNB never has views on *
*             *  on anything, ever.                        *
************************************************************


Article 18510 of alt.revisionism:
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
Message-ID: <1994Nov3.023120.32986@miavx1>
From: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov)
Date: 3 Nov 94 02:31:20 -0500
References: <5KxVTkQ.hoffman2nd@delphi.com>  
Organization: Miami University
Lines: 53

In article , hoffman2nd@delphi.com writes:
> Eric Doenges  writes:
>  
>>>The Eagle Has Landed. Evil Germans plot to kidnap Englands Prime Minister.
>>
>>This should read: Heroic Falschirmj"agers' plot to kidnap Churchhill fails
>>because one heroic Falschirmj"ager exposes his identity while saving a British
>>child, dying heroically while doing this. Noble Germans, cornered in a church
>>by American soldiers, let their British civilian hostages go before the
>  
> Just one problem, the Germans never tried to kidnap Churchill but I guess a
> little >>artistic license<< never harmed an agit-prop flick.


Well, the movie sure didn't portray Germans in a bad light, 
now did it?


>>The hunt is on after Kahl murders government agents. But we all know that
>>patriotic Americans have the right to kill government officials.
>  
> Please do not expose your ignorance any further by making comments on what you
> no nothing about. Unlke the denizens of the Deutsche Banana Republik who have
> exchanged blind fealty to Hitler for blind fealty to Judaism and the State,
> Americans (many of German descent) have a long history of individual liberty and

There are plenty of Germans who take pride in the nation they 
spent the last fifty+ years building.  I doubt very highly they'd 
appreciate your insult.  

I mean really, it is _you_ who is attacking Germans, particualrly
those who have worked very hard to rebuild it.  

Who's the anti-German here?


> distrust of central power and authority. You bet your life patriotic Americans
> have the right to kill government officials when they act like tyrants. We have
> been doing it since 1776. It is what kept us free for the first 80 years of our
> Republic. 

The first 80 years of our republic ended in 1856, if we count 1776
as the starting date.  That's painfully close to the civil war. 

Are you then claiming that the Civil War ended our freedom?



=======================================================================
Brian Harmon           "...God sets us nothing but riddles.."
Miami University             -Dostoyevski's _The Brothers Karamazov_
Oxford, Ohio 45056                yeech! ackphtbt! ungh!
--------------bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu--------------------------


Article 18514 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
Date: Wed, 02 Nov 1994 21:11:30 -0400
Organization: University of Michigan
Lines: 27
Message-ID: 
References: <5KxVTkQ.hoffman2nd@delphi.com>
   <30OCT199415301260@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
   
   <31OCT199423032542@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu>
   <396djq$2ia@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>
   
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm005-01.dialip.mich.net

hoffman2nd@delphi.com wrote:

> As I have already stated, I have juxtaposed the mindless piety and
> veneration such as was exhibited even in a normally irreverent cartoon
> like >>Simpsons<< toward the Talmud and Judaism

Oh, you mean like when Krusty the Clown has a guest on his show who
mentions that Krusty's Jewish, and Krusty hushes him up?  The next
lines go something like this:

Guest:  "Krusty, why you wanna deny your heritage?"
Krusty (sternly, out of the corner of his mouth):  "Ixnay on the Ew-jay!"

I guess you had to be there.

Krusty sells his own line of pork products.

He's constantly depicted as a fat slob who's rude and inconsiderate to
everyone around him.

And Mr. Hoffman II thinks that's "mindless piety and veneration."

Yeah, sure...
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "I am taking landpost's spelling as correct,
  I realize that is not risk-free"  - Daniel Rice


Article 18522 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!EU.net!Germany.EU.net!news.dfn.de!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!stepsun.uni-kl.de!uklirb.informatik.uni-kl.de!informatik.uni-kl.de!stschulz
From: stschulz@informatik.uni-kl.de (Stephan Schulz)
Subject: Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
Message-ID: <1994Nov3.143831.14344@uklirb.informatik.uni-kl.de>
Sender: news@uklirb.informatik.uni-kl.de (Unix-News-System)
Nntp-Posting-Host: isis.informatik.uni-kl.de
Organization: University of Kaiserslautern, Germany
References: <5KxVTkQ.hoffman2nd@delphi.com> <3926dm$eo1@nyx10.cs.du.edu>  <1994Nov1.231549.317@uklirb.informatik.uni-kl.de> 
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 14:38:31 GMT
Lines: 20

In article , hoffman2nd@delphi.com writes:
|> Stephan Schulz  writes:
|>  
|> >You can doubt whatever you want in Germany. You can also (still)
|> >publically or privatly deny the Holocaust without getting in any
|>  
|> This is false. Several Germans have already been imprisoned for doubting
|> the gas chambers. Fred Leutcher is a wanted fugitive in Germany for jumping
|> bail and missing his trial. --Michael A. Hoffman II

What a brilliant display of reading comprehension and in-context
quoting. Thanks.


Stephan

-------------------------- It can be done! ---------------------------------
    Please email me as stschulz@informatik.uni-kl.de (Stephan Schulz)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------



Article 18527 of alt.revisionism:
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From: smullins@cidmac.ecn.purdue.edu (Scott H Mullins)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay a "police agent?"
Date: 1 Nov 1994 14:49:33 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Lines: 22
Distribution: world,local
Message-ID: <395kht$os4@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
References: <38uejm$hj9@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <3930fc$ic@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: cidmac.ecn.purdue.edu

In article  hoffman2nd@delphi.com writes:
>When describing Ken McVay, a paid prostitute of the Sanhedrin-Inquisition
>against writers, teachers and publishers in Canada, it is most fitting and
>appropriate to make a graphic comparison with the whoredoms of Babylon.

Still no evidence for this, eh?

[del]
>Alt.revisionism is for those who can handle 100 proof debate. If this is too
>much for your Pollyanna taste, go post in alt.infant.

Hee-hee. Oh, yeah, your posts are _really_ bothering me! You better
stop now. I'm going to try to censor you! The CIA is beaming
thought control rays at you RIGHT NOW! We'll have your brain
for the Zionist world conspiracy any day now.

Whatever you do, PLEASE DON'T POST ANYMORE! It really, really, 
really, really, really, really, really, really bothers me.

--
Scott
smullins@ecn.purdue.edu


Article 18532 of alt.revisionism:
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From: kauhunen@mits.mdata.fi (Kari Nenonen)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
Date: 4 Nov 1994 04:31:29 GMT
Organization: Mits BBS, Helsinki, Finland (40+ Nodes +358-0-4582066)
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <39cdf1$7ko@prime.mdata.fi>
References: <5KxVTkQ.hoffman2nd@delphi.com> <397scu$mmn@residuum.regent.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de>  
NNTP-Posting-Host: mits.mdata.fi

In article ,
Barry Shein  wrote:

>Ok, you're on: Two recent movies portraying obviously Jewish stars as
>scum:


In "Carlito's Way" there is that very stereotyped and very disgusting
Jewish character - Carlito's lawer.

"Once Upon a Time in America" by Sergio Leone is about a Jewish mob.

Hmm... I just wonder why I take part in this discussion...? Very
strange.



>-- 
>        -Barry Shein
>
>Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
>Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


-- 
Kari Nenonen   - kauhunen@mits.mdata.fi          - Skepsis r.y.
Maavallintie 4 - Tel: 358-0-5636625              - Helsingin Scifiseura
00430 Helsinki - The Finnish Dramatists' Society - Wan.Her.Tiet.Kirj.N.H
Finland        - The Writers' Union of Finland   - The International J.C.


Article 18533 of alt.revisionism:
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From: t08o@adrastea.sun.csd.unb.ca (Morrison)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay a "police agent?"
Date: 2 Nov 1994 23:41:55 GMT
Organization: University of New Brunswick, Fredericton, NB, Canada
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <399843$s26@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>
References:   <1994Nov01.085847.19144@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: adrastea.sun.csd.unb.ca

From: hoffman2nd@delphi.com
Message-ID: 
 
>Readers ought to be aware that Mr. McVay resides in one of the most repressive
>thought control nations of all, Canada.

Then perhaps Hoffie Squared might be able to explain why this most 
repressive of thought control nations has produced political satirists known
nation-wide like the Royal Canadian Air Farce and Double Exposure, two
comedy troups who make their money off lampooning *all* politicians,
groups and individuals across the spectrum.

>This is how tightly the
>lid is on the facts about what Canada does to revisionists. This is not a minor
>phenomenon. 

Canadians know full well about Zuendal, Keegstra and Ross, thank you very
much.  I'm gald you know more about what we do than we do.

>Video stores are raided, booksellers are terrorized, books
>are banned (the Royal Canadian Mounted Police >>Mounties,<Canadian college library in order to seize two copies of Prof. Arthur Butz book
>>>The Hoax of the 20th Century).<<
 
Names, please.  Better be careful naming the University too, because we
don't have that many and I know all of them, so don't even bother trying
to make up a name. 
 
>Oh, what a blunder I have made. They are not paying you a salary they are
>funneling a salary to you through a tax-exempt fund. So you are not a paid
>prostitute you are a tax-exempt prostitute. Now I get it. Thanks for edifying
>me, for a while there I thought the Pharisee-idolizing United Church of Canada
>was giving you money to continue your policemans function here on the Net.
 
As I've made it clear before, I'm not an active member of the United Church,
but I still get just a little annoyed when someone as ignorant of it as
Hoffie Squared makes pronouncements on it.  You see, Hoffie, the UCC, as
I have tried to explain in a previous post, is not set up like many churches
with a hierarchical structure, so by condemning the UCC, you are implicitely
condemning hundreds of thousands of people, including my family.  I dislike
people ascribing beliefs and motivces to my family.
 
>What you and the despicable hirelings who betray the gospel of Jesus Christ who
>finance you are doing is advancing the suzerainty of the Israelis by raising
>them into a Master Race class that is above criticism, investigation and
>scrutiny.
 
"These things I command you, that ye love one another." John 15:17

Your own record on following the gospels is pretty bad.
 
---------------------------------------------------------------

Keith Morrison

************************************************************
*t08o@unb.ca  *  My views are not those of the University  *
***************  of New Brunswick.  UNB never has views on *
*             *  on anything, ever.                        *
************************************************************



Article 18534 of alt.revisionism:
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From: t08o@adrastea.sun.csd.unb.ca (Morrison)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ooo! Can I play too? (Hollywood Hate Propaganda)
Date: 3 Nov 1994 22:44:03 GMT
Organization: University of New Brunswick, Fredericton, NB, Canada
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <39bp3j$mf9@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>
References: <5KxVTkQ.hoffman2nd@delphi.com>  <396c1a$qeo@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca> <39857a$om5@agate.berkeley.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: adrastea.sun.csd.unb.ca

In article <39857a$om5@agate.berkeley.edu>,
Richard Schultz  wrote:
>In article <396c1a$qeo@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>,
>Morrison  wrote:
>
>>May the Great Bird of the Galaxy punish your sacreligious blatther by
>>sending a thousand Ferengi encyclopedia salesmen to your door.
>                    ^^^^^^^
>
>Speaking of sacrilege.  The "New" Star Trek is the work of the Devil and
>should never be mentioned in the same breath as the Real Thing.  Think of 
>it as you would think of "New" Coke vs. The Real Thing.  (The substitution
>of corn syrup fo sugar in "Classic" Coke may be compared to the way they
>butcher the Original 79 in order to make room for more commercials.)
>
>You are hereby sentenced to exile on Ceti Alpha 5.
>
>					Richard Schultz

...and the Great Bird came down upon the Earth and heard the pleas of
his apostles.  "Oh, Gene," they crieth (for they knoweth the nameth
thateth he hath been calleth byeth hiseth pareneth), "we seek more of 
your enlightenment, for the Original 79 has been upon our minds and we
seek for Trek renewed, for the wise men say one can watch every episode
but ten times before the brain goes to mush."

And the Great Bird of the Galaxy spoke and said "Let us cast a crew and
get better effects.  Let us seek those who can act without...having...
the...need...to...pause...between...every...word.  Let us gather the
writers so that they may make worthy social comment.  Let us get tall
female extras in skintight suits to satisfy the testosterone-crazed
male fans."

And lo, it was done, and the wise man said, "It is good.  Except for those
brainless episodes that all fans do detest and that little twerp Wesley,
it is a worthy successor.  For the Great Bird and his wisemen do say that
it is different, of temper and meaning from that of the Original 79.
And we like the Klingons better."

And all fans held counsel and decided that they were indeed different,
one from the other.  And those who decry that the New defiles the legend
of the old, hear this our words.

Wouldst thou have Bones examining your sores rather than the doctor babe
Beverly?



Article 18535 of alt.revisionism:
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From: t08o@adrastea.sun.csd.unb.ca (Morrison)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
Date: 3 Nov 1994 22:46:34 GMT
Organization: University of New Brunswick, Fredericton, NB, Canada
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <39bp8a$n1h@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>
References: <5KxVTkQ.hoffman2nd@delphi.com>  <1994Nov1.231549.317@uklirb.informatik.uni-kl.de> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: adrastea.sun.csd.unb.ca

In article ,   wrote:
>Stephan Schulz  writes:
> 
>>You can doubt whatever you want in Germany. You can also (still)
>>publically or privatly deny the Holocaust without getting in any
> 
>This is false. Several Germans have already been imprisoned for doubting
>the gas chambers. Fred Leutcher is a wanted fugitive in Germany for jumping
>bail and missing his trial. --Michael A. Hoffman II

...as he would be in any other country for jumping and running.

So he's a criminal *and* a liar.  Your point?

---------------------------------------------------------------

Keith Morrison

************************************************************
*t08o@unb.ca  *  My views are not those of the University  *
***************  of New Brunswick.  UNB never has views on *
*             *  on anything, ever.                        *
************************************************************


Article 18537 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!unixg.ubc.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!rsavage
From: rsavage@netcom.com (Rick Savage)
Subject: Khazars: the self-styled "Jews"
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:  
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 05:15:21 GMT
Lines: 100

Philip Trauring (philip@cs.brandeis.edu) wrote:

: In article , hoffman2nd@delphi.com wrote:
: > I wonder what would happen to Khazars (or philo-Khazars) like Schulz if, when
: > losing a debate, they did something besides summoning the ghosts of Abe Reles,
: > Menachem Begin and other august ice-pick pokers and piano-wire wielders? Or
: > perhaps Schulz draws his inspiration from the continuing presence in this mortal
: > realm of Shitsack Shamir, architect of the murder of the 53 year old U.N.
: > diplomat Folke Bernadotte on Sept. 17, 1948? (Bernadotte had rescued hundreds > of Khazars during World War Two).

: First of all, I would like your sources on calling Jews Khazars. It's a
: great theory(Come on, Al Sharpton likes it) and I'd like some proof for it.
: Althoguh I beleive there was a Khazar nation, and that it did primarily
: convert to Judaism, to say that all Jews are Khazars is a bit absurd.

    First of all there are two sources for the Khazar connection at:
      ftp.netcom.com /pub/SFA/Bible  Facts_are_Facts (by B. Freedman)
      ftp.netcom.com /pub/SFA/history 13th_Tribe_Review (Koestler)

    Here is a newspaper article as well:

"The Jews That Aren't" 
by Leo Heiman: Copley News Service
San Diego Union - August 28, 1966
 
Tel Aviv
 
    Nathan M. Pollock has a beef with the Israeli government. 
    His elaborate plans to celebrate this September the 1,000th 
anniversary of the Jewish-Khozar alliance were summarily rejected.
    An elderly, meek-looking man who migrated to Israel from Russia 43 
years ago, Pollock ekes out a living as a translator of scientific texts 
and proofreader in a publishing firm.
    But his great passion, hobby and avocation is historic research.
    HE has devoted 40 of his 64 years to trying to prove that six out of 
10 Israelis and nine out of 10 Jews in the Western Hemisphere are not 
real Jews' Jews, but descendants of fierce Khozar tribes which roamed the 
steppes of southern Russia many centuries ago.
    For obvious reasons the Israeli authorities are not at all eager to 
give the offical stamp of approval to Pollock's theories.
    "For all we know, he may be 100 per cent right," said a senior 
goverment official.  "In fact, he is not the first one to discover the 
connection between Jews and Khozars.  Many famous scholars, Jews and 
non-Jews, stressed these links in their historical research works.
    "But who can tell today what percentage of Khozar blood flows in our 
veins, if at all?  And who can declare with any degree of scientific 
accuracy which Jews are Jews and which descendants of this Tartar-Mongol 
race?
    "As a matter of fact, our alleged descent from the Khozars is the 
central theme of Arab propaganda," he added. "The Arabs claim most 
European Jews have no right to be in Israel in the first place because 
they are not descended from Biblical Hebrews, but from Tartar-Mongol 
nomad tribes, including the Khozars who were converted to Judaism en 
masse 1,000 years ago."
    Scientific opinion in Israel is divided on the subject.  No one 
argues the basic premise: that a group of 12,000 Jews, fleeing from 
perseuction and wars in the Holy Land, in the wake of Byzantine and 
Moselm conquests, made the long overland trek to Persia, crossed the 
territory of today's Turkestan in Central Asia and found asylum in the 
Khozar Kingdom, which occupied a vast area between the Caspian Sea, Volga 
River, Ural Mountains, Black Sea and the Polish borderlands.
    In the year 965 the Khozars were defeated for the first time in 500 
years by Prince Sviatoslav of Kiev.  King Bulan III of Khozaria concluded 
that Prince Sviatoslav emerged victorious from the war because his troops 
and mercenaries were Christians, while his nomads were pagan worshipers.  
The king and his nobles embraced Judaism in 965, and in 966 a royal edict 
was passed enforcing Judaism as the only legal religion in the Khozar 
Kingdom.  Tribesmen had to undergo circumcision, learn Hebrew prayers and 
recognize Jewish rabbis as their spiritual leaders - on pain of death.
    As other Jews who were persecuted in the Middle East, medieval Europe 
and Spain at the time, heard of the new Jewish-Khozar kingdom, rumors 
spread that the Messiah had arrived at long last.  There were several 
consecutive migration waves to Khozaria, via Persia, Greece and Poland.
    Pollock believes the traditional Russian anti-Semitism probably stems 
from that epoch when Hebrew-speaking Khozar raiders attacked Russian 
villages, killed the men folk, abducted women, forcibly converted them to 
Judaism and married them in full-fledged religious ceremonies.  This also 
would explain why so many European Jews are blond and blue-eyed, with 
slight Mongol slant to their eyes, as well as the total absence of 
Semitic features among many Israelis of European descent.
    The flourishing Jewish-Khozar Kingdom was destroyed in 1239 by the 
Mongol invasion of Batu Khan.
    Following the Mongol invasion and conquest, surviving members of 
Jewish-Khozar tribes trekked west and settled in Poland, Hungary, 
Bohemia, Austria, Romania, and the Ukraine.  
    How can one find out if he is a "Khozar Jew" or a "Hebrew Jew?"
    According to Pollock, whose parents came from Poland, if your name is 
Halperin, Alpert, Halpern, Galpern, etc., you are a 100 per cent Khozar.  
"Alper" means "brave knight" in the Khozar tongue, and the name was 
granted by the king to the most distinguished warriors.  Names like 
Kaplan, Caplon, Koppel, and the like are positive proof of Khozar 
descent, according to the scholar.  "Kaplan" means "fierce hawk" in the 
Khozar language.  Kogan, Kagan, Kaganovich show aristocratic descent from 
Kagan-Hagan, King Bulan's chief minister.  (EOA)

-- 
 _____________________Rick Savage ______________________
|    Important files on life, liberty and happiness:        Rick Savage     | 
|  Anonymous FTP server:  ftp.netcom.com  - "cd pub/SFA"    PO Box 5251     |
|       Gov't, history, law, Bible, socialissues          Denver, CO 80217  |


Article 18538 of alt.revisionism:
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From: t08o@adrastea.sun.csd.unb.ca (Morrison)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
Date: 3 Nov 1994 23:16:09 GMT
Organization: University of New Brunswick, Fredericton, NB, Canada
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From: gt91rdj@brunel.ac.uk (Ricardo D Joshua)
Message-ID: 

>That's all for now...

Thank heaven for small miracles.  Don't you love it when one revisionist
heartily agrees with the comments of another revisionist that everyone
else thinks is completely out to lunch?

BTW Ricky, how is the INtestinal Genital REsistance Movement (INGREM)
these days? 


---------------------------------------------------------------

Keith Morrison

************************************************************
*t08o@unb.ca  *  My views are not those of the University  *
***************  of New Brunswick.  UNB never has views on *
*             *  on anything, ever.                        *
************************************************************


Article 18539 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
Date: 2 Nov 1994 09:36 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 35
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In article , dannya@xs4all.nl (Danny A. Nijburg) writes...
>In article <31OCT199423103282@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu> dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) writes:

>>    I submit that while there are many many anti-Nazi movies (and it just
>>    so happens that the Nazis were a small subset of Germans) there are
>>    very few genericly anti-German movies.

>On what basis do you define the Nazis as a >SMALL< subset of Germans?
>In the last legal elections they got the largest number of votes of all 
>parties.

    The last legal elections were held in November 1932.  The Nazis got
    33.1 percent of the vote.  This was their peak in free and open
    elections.

    After a decade of economic depression, and after several years of
    infighting and assassinations which weakened the other far-right
    parties in Germany, the Nazis peaked at about one third of the popular
    electoral vote.  I still submit that their following was a small subset
    of Germans.

    Remember, times were very bad in Germany in 32.  Hitler ran a populist
    campaign blaming the problems on Jews and outsiders.  People were fed
    up with the current government, saw them as ineffective (which may well
    have been true) and were open to change.  Other far-right parties were
    in shambles beccause of infighting.  Hitler may have looked like a
    viable option to many among the lower educated working classes.  But
    getting 1/3 of the votes do not make 1/3 of Gemany Nazis.

    And, correct me if I am wrong - I don't have reference materials in
    front of me, wasn't the November 32 campaign a rather dirty campaign
    with lot of lies (more than the usual) being spread?  Did people really
    understand what they were voting for in 32?
===========================================================================
daniel david mittleman     -     danny@arizona.edu     -     (602) 621-2932


Article 18540 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Hoffman's Kastner claim stands up
Date: 3 Nov 1994 20:34:35 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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In article <5I9WTMU.hoffman2nd@delphi.com>,   wrote:
>From Michael A. Hoffman II
> 
>Mike Stein says >>I suspect that no matter what I may cite favorable to 
>Kastner, if it comes from any other source, Hoffman will simply say it 
>is a whitewash.<< > 

>Mr. Stein, you may cite in favor of Kastner as much as you like. Since you 
>are in favor of a Nazi collaborator maybe McVay will open a surveillance 
>file on you.

   I never said that I was in favor of Kastner.  I am in favor of the 
truth and the normal standards of scholarly writing, which includes 
presentation of documented evidence rather than unsubstantiated 
assertion.  I am also opposed to double standards.

    Mr. Hoffman has been rather coy about presenting his sources, and the
ones that he did give as evidence are not at all conclusive in support of
his assertion (see below for more).  Therefore I have made no secret of
the fact that I have been highly suspicious of the rest of his claims, and
have been hectoring him for his sources in order to verify them.  This is
something any honest scholar should have no problem with.  Hoffman played
silly games with acronyms.  Nonetheless, his source - Lenni Brenner's
"Zionism in the Age of the Dictators" - was easily recognizable. 

    I have no problem announcing that in my opinion Mr. Hoffman is
presenting Brenner's book honestly.  Brenner draws heavily on Ben Hecht's 
"Perfidy," and obviously feels that Kastner sold out 450,000 Hungarian Jews 
to save about 1,000 young Zionists plus some wealthy people (they were 
needed to pay a ransom demanded by Eichmann), plus his friends and family.  

    Brenner does present the argument of Kastner's defenders that he 
concluded that he was trying to save what he could, concluding that 
resistance was futile and the alternative was that *everyone* would have 
died, albeit perhaps with some additional inconvenience and deaths inflicted 
on the Nazis.  It's pretty clear Brenner does not find this defense terribly 
compelling.      

    The most telling point, to me, is Kastner's failure to act on behalf
of Hannah Szenes, something which wouldn't have interfered with the rescue
deal.  But if Kastner really did what he did from honest motives, after
the war it seems he lacked the testicles to stand up forthrightly and say,
"Yes, I did all this - I sent hundreds of thousands to their death, but I
did it to send 1,300 to life.  Resistance might have saved more, but it
might have lost all.  I don't know and you don't know; I was the one who
was there and this is how I chose.  Yes, I succumbed to human feelings
and asked for consideration for members of my family."  (Actually, the
deal was for 1,300, but it turned out to be over 1,700 as a few hundred
others jumped on the train.)

    The testimony on behalf of Becher (which the Israeli high court
concluded was perjured) is intriguing, since in his original affidavit
(PS-2605) Kastner said that he thought Becher was only being nice in order
to give himself an alibi.  Why Kastner made that derogatory statement in
PS-2605 but was more favorable later is an interesting question.  I
suspect (but idly so, I have no real evidence) that Kastner's behavior on
the witness stand was undertaken in order to conceal his own behavior
during that time - perhaps Becher threatened to spill the beans unless
Kastner played ball at the trial.  (Again, this is just speculation, I 
admit freely that I have zero evidence.)

    I demanded the right to check up on Hoffman, I investigated his source, 
here are my findings.  There is another side to the story, which Mr. Hoffman 
didn't mention, but at least this time he is not reading too much into a 
source.  From what is in Brenner's book one can *honestly* and 
*legitimately* draw the same conclusion as Hoffman does.  (For the record, I 
do too.)

    I am utterly dumbfounded as to why he was so evasive on a point where
he *did* have grounding while giving such inconclusive references on the 
exact reasons for Goeth's arrest - frankly, I figured that if his Goeth 
references were that bad, what he *didn't* present must be even worse.  In 
this case it wasn't.  *Now* I'm surprised.  (Happy, Mr. Hoffman?) 

    Brenner does not mention anything about Kastner's dealings with
Schindler, however.  And I still say Hoffman's reaching several
light-years when he claims that the true reason Spielberg omitted mention
of Kastner is to conceal information unfavorable to Zionism.  I would hope
that even Mr. Hoffman would concede that it would have been ludicrous for
Spielberg to digress so far from the main thread of Schindler's story as
to show the later actions of a man who played only a tangential part in
Schindler's story.

    So even if the Kastner meeting had been shown, few in the audience would 
have been the wiser.  Yet Hoffman seems to think that if only Kastner had 
been shown, everyone in the audience would have learned *all* the shocking 
truth.  Or something like that; I have no hope of following his bizarre 
logic here. 

    Nevertheless, despite his silly games Mr. Hoffman did provide a good 
source and a defensible claim; for this I award him a cookie.  I've happily 
beaten him up for lying and for producing sources that don't adequately say 
what he claims they do, but I'm just as happy to publicly acknowledge those 
cases where a revisionist's claims do stand up.  (I want to encourage 
good behavior.)


>>>You see, by Hoffmans rules, information favorable to Nazis is always
>true.<<
> 
>Now comes the mendacious stereotyping so dear to Mr. Steins tribe.

    The above statement about my "tribe" is, of course, the mendacious
stereotyping so dear to Mr. Hoffman (but *not* his tribe). 

    I was being sarcastic and hyperbolic, yes.  But I do maintain that
Hoffman is making a claim - that Goeth was charged with *murder* by the SS
- based on a completely unjustifiable reading of the documents he claims
support him.  I still sincerely doubt he would accept such a claim based
on such ambiguous writing if it were presented *against* Nazis or to
*defend* Jews.  Perhaps he will have the opportunity to prove me wrong. 


>This writer is an anti-Nazi. I have published material against the Nazis 
>in >>Revisionist Researcher Magazine.<< Information exposing Hitler and 
>the NSDAP as dictatorial or murderous is fine by me so long as it is 
>based on fact.

    As a matter of fact, this is exactly my position on Kastner.  If you 
give your sources like an honest scholar and they say what you say they 
say, I am happy.

    I am just sick and tired of seeing revisionists repeating assertion
after assertion and never offering any evidence, or at best vague
paraphrases or heavily edited quotes from uncertain sources, yet
demanding they must receive infinite amounts of proof to a standard they'd
never dream of requiring for anything else.  (If they *were* consistent in
that high standard, I suppose I might think them nutty, but I couldn't
call them hypocrites.)

    When I find lies, distortions, half-truths, specious arguments, and
evasions, I point them out - and I've done it when the topic has nothing
to do with revisionism, or when the illegitimate arguments are raised by
those with whom I would otherwise agree.  (For example, the gratuitous 
references to the private sex life of a revisionist I shall not name.)  But 
on those all-too-rare occasions that I find a revisionist bringing forward 
claims with real support, I roll over like a kitten.

    Actually, I am compelled to note that Mr. Hoffman hasn't yet expressed
any actual Holocaust denial that I have seen, just frenzied Jew-bashing
and complaints that too much attention is being focused on German crimes
and that they are exaggerated.  (If he had read my article on the human
soap experiments described by Mazur and the British POWs, he'd know I have
had occasion to make the last point myself.)

    So I suppose I should ask him once more what *does* he believe about
Nazi treatment of Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, etc.?  Maybe I *have*
stereotyped him - I still think he's a kook, but perhaps he's not quite 
the *type* of kook I thought he was.


>Spielbergs movie >>Schindlers List<< stereotypes the entire German army 
>as homicidal robots and it portrays the German military hierarchy as 
>sanctioning Commandant Goeths crimes of murder when in fact, as Morgen 
>and Obersturmbannfuehrer Mittelstaedt testified, he was arrested by the 
>SS because of those crimes.

    The precise nature of the charges against Goeth is still not clear (see 
below).

    Again, I see here a double standard.  Hoffman feels that the actions
of Morgen *must* be presented, because they show that the German hierarchy
did *not* sanction the crimes of the commandants.  However, his position
is weakened when one notes that the investigation into Koch met with over
a year of opposition from Himmler, which suggests that part of the
hierarchy (and Reichsfu"hrer SS Himmler was a pretty *important* part, I
think Hoffman would agree!) *did* sanction the crimes. 

    The whole story is fairly complex and seems to have involved some 
personal emnity between Karl Koch and Prinz von Waldeck-Pyrmont, Thuringian 
SS leader and police chief.  Morgen would seem to have been a man of 
integrity, but it's very easy to suspect some of the others were primarily 
interested not in justice, but a power play, and just used the crimes as a 
convenient weapon to beat up on their political enemies.  (See Feig, 
Connilyn: "Hitler's Death Camps" [Holmes & Meier, 1979] pp. 105-106.) 

    Yet Hoffman seems to feel that even *mentioning* one bad Zionist apple -
Kastner - discredits all of Zionism, so that's why Spielberg omitted it. 
(I don't consider myself a Zionist, by the way.)


>Mr. Stein has given the wrong Mittelstaedt affidavit (this is not his fault).

   Thank you.  I looked in the obvious place, the index of NMT documents,
and came up with NO-1875, so I assumed that was what you meant.  But your
willingness to agree that my actions were reasonable, and not shout that I
KNEW that there were two Mittelstaedt affidavits and DELIBERATELY produced
the wrong one, is a pleasant surprise (two in one posting!) and is
appreciated. 

    I can't resist noting, however, that his raises still further the
amount of material you insist Spielberg had a duty to wade through without
any real reason to think it would produce anything relevant to his purposes.


>I am reproducing the relevant one here from Critchleys translation. 
>[...] 
>The following was written by Kurt Mittelstaedt, SSJudge Konrad Morgens
>superior officer, circa December, 1945. It is from a U.S. Army War 
>Crimes investigations document. Mittelstaedt was chief of the highest SS 
>Court in the H.A.G. (at Munich):
> 
>>>The investigations conducted by SSJudges led to about 200 sentencings of 
>SS members...The following overview makes clear in a short summary the 
>extent and goals of the investigations...Plaszow and Scebnie near Crakow: 
>investigations against the commandant, members of the commandantures and 
the former SS and Police Fuehrer of Warsaw, SSOberfuehrer Scherner, 
>because of killing and abuse of prisoners and because of crimes of 
>corruption.<<

    Unfortunately this suffers from the same problem as Morgen's
affidavit, plus another one.  There is a fairly long list of people (not
only Commandant Goeth and the commandant of Scebnie, but members of the
commandantures) followed by a list of crimes, with no clear way to link
specific names with specific crimes.  (The Morgen affidavit also suffered
from this problem.)  Also, the Mittelstaedt affidavit in any event talks
not about *indictments* but *investigations*.  Even if Goeth *was*
investigated for murder, this does not mean that he was - as Hoffman
claimed - *arrested* for it (that is, the investigation turned up enough
evidence for the SS to bring the charge).  So again this document does 
not say as much as Hoffman thinks it does.

    Once more I *must* emphasize that I do not claim that any of this
proves that Goeth *wasn't* charged with murder - only that this point has
not been definitely established yet.  But I am on solid ground in saying
Mr. Hoffman was reading too much into the documents he has; they are too
ambiguous to *prove* that Goeth was charged with anything other than
corruption, which is all that the unambiguous sources - Keneally and
Ainsztein - say.  I frankly doubt it, but I'm ready to be convinced
otherwise by an unambigous document. 


>In his Oct. 28 post, Mr. Stein alleges that he knew about about Morgens
>testimony about Goeth before I informed him of it:>>It is old news. I knew
>about it earlier...<< Yet on Oct. 22, Stein wrote:>>But after Hoffmans latest
>post, I had an opportunity to take a peek at vol. 42, p. 556. It contains an
>affidavit from Morgen...<<
> 
>You should try to keep your lies straight Mr. Stein.

    Really, Mr. Hoffman.  Are you truly so blinded by your hate that you
cannot see the utterly obvious explanation - that I saw the information
somewhere besides the actual IMT volume?  (A posting by Danny Keren, to be
precise.)


>I note that Stein-the-bluffer cannot refute my assertion that the reference 
>to >>other versions<< in the footnotes of Danby and Soncino are to 
>censored and falsified translations.

    In other words, Mr. Hoffman makes a charge against the Talmud though
he refuses to present any evidence, and says it is my duty to run all over
creation to find thousand-year-old texts to prove it innocent. 

    Well, I have a very simple refutation.  Mr. Hoffman *is* a liar - as I
have already proven conclusively in another thread.  However, even if I
had not already established his deceitful nature (by demonstrating that he
claimed to have based a comment on a statement of mine which was not made
until 19 days *after* his comment), by his own rules it's OK to make
assertions and claim the other person bears the burden of proving
innocence.  Therefore I'll just assert he's lying about the Talmud and say
it's his job to prove he's not lying.  I am only applying his own rules
here; how can he object? 

    But all this is actually rather beside the point, since Mr. Hoffman
had claimed that *Spielberg* falisified the Talmud (by accurately
portraying the inscription on a ring?!).  Since Hoffman has also claimed
the falsification took place in the 13th century or thereabouts, this would 
be some trick on Spielberg's part!  Perhaps therefore George Lucas's 
Industrial Light and Magic helped out in this falsification - Lucas and 
Spielberg are good buddies, I understand. 


>Nor does he dare to attempt to challenge my destruction of his 
anti-semitism canard.

    Excuse me, but what destruction of what anti-semitism canard?  If you
mean the Khazar thing, that would be irrelevant regardless of its truth! 
You and everyone else know perfectly well what I meant.  Choosing your own
nonstandard definitions of terms and arguing against it is hardly a
legitimate refutation; it's sophistry.  Your "destruction" self-destructs
without any effort on my part.

    And there is something you don't know about my family tree which 
indicates I do indeed have Hebrew blood.  But I won't present that evidence 
- by your own rules, it's your job to prove my assertion wrong.  Can you 
even guess what I might be referring to? 
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 18547 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
Date: 3 Nov 1994 18:10:09 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <39bqkh$3qt@access4.digex.net>
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In article ,   wrote:
>I shall reverse your question: Does this mean that any film showing
>a criminal ofthe Jewish religion is anti-Jewish?  If the Jewish 
>identification is explicit the ADL, Simon Wiesenthal Center and other 
>thought cop groups would regard it as such.

    "Once Upon a Time in America" (see the uncut version, it's much
better).  Jewish gangsters, but not at all an anti-Jewish movie.  Has
anyone heard of the ADL, SWC, etc. protesting it?  I haven't.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 18548 of alt.revisionism:
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From: rsavage@netcom.com (Rick Savage)
Subject: Re: Khazars: the self-styled "Jews"
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:   
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 17:45:38 GMT
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Barry Shein (bzs@world.std.com) wrote:

: Would someone please explain this fascination with Khazars?
: A few observations:

: 1. Apparently the big point here is that if a lot of modern-day
: Euroepean Jews descended from Khazars then this somehow breaks the
: link to Israel.

: 	a) Does anyone doubt the link between Israel and the
: 	Jewish *religion*?

       Not anymore than one would doubt the link between the Moonies 
and the teaching of Jesus Christ.
       The point being Judaism is merely a religion that claims descent 
from Biblical Israel but is the complete opposite of these beliefs in 
actual practice.  
       Is this an admission that the modern day "Jews" of Judaism have no 
physical link to Biblical Israelites, as the 1980 Jewish Almanac 
confirms?  This admission would make me happy if you would also then 
include an admission that the "Jews" are not "God's Chosen People," "The 
People of the Book (Bible)," and/or "The Jews of the Old & New Testament".
Can I use you as a reference in correcting the many Christians who 
believe these lies then?  


: I don't get it, except if one postulates that the only reason Israel
: has any right to exist is on the belief that every single (or even
: most) Jew living in Israel is descended from someone who left Israel
: only in the diaspora. Does anyone seriously believe this point exists
: much beyond a spiritual point of view?

     Yes, many "Christian" Zionists belief this fiction beyond the 
"spiritual" point of view.  You would do them a service by correcting 
this misconception.

: That's independent of whether or not you are comfortable with that
: spiritual point of view. I'm not, particularly.

    Why not?

: Personally my view of Israel is basically political; the British
: controlled it, they basically yielded it to the immigrating Jews who
: certainly had more reason to pick Israel/Palestine to head towards
: than, say Madagascar or the Fiji Islands, and that's where it stands.

     Why do you suppose the British yielded palestine to the the 
immigrating "Jews" of Judaism?  Was the British decision just and legal 
per International Law?  Were the Palestines every paid reprarations for 
their lost lands, businesses and homes much like the "Jews" collect from 
Germany today?

: As a thought exercise: Do any of the descendants of white europeans
: feel they have any right to live in North America that isn't
: summarized by: We fooking took it, so now it's ours, just *try* to pry
: us out and we'll nuke your sorry butts to kingdom come!?

    Absolutely.  The Indians claimed less than 3% of the land legally.  
The white europeans played by the Indians own rules.  The indians were 
killing each other off for decades before the whites came.  The whites 
just played their own game, but were more effective at it.
    Get the file "Indians.txt" by anon. FTP:  
          ftp.netcom.com /pub/SFA/history 
for the complete legal arguement over the land issue in America.

: And what any of this has to do with whether or not the holocaust
: occurred escapes me, except inasmuch as that now that that issue has
: been raised seems to have drawn every jew-basher out of the woodwork.

      The holocaust legend is at the heart of the politics of the illegal 
bandit state of Israeli in Palestine.  It is supported by Zionist 
Christians because of this guilt inspiring propaganda hoax.  
-- 
 _____________________Rick Savage ______________________
|    Important files on life, liberty and happiness:        Rick Savage     | 
|  Anonymous FTP server:  ftp.netcom.com  - "cd pub/SFA"    PO Box 5251     |
|       Gov't, history, law, Bible, socialissues          Denver, CO 80217  |


Article 18549 of alt.revisionism:
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From: quirke_a@ix.wcc.govt.nz
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay a "police agent?"
Date: 5 Nov 1994 02:51:17 GMT
Organization: Wellington City Council, Public Access
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <39erv5$8hi@golem.wcc.govt.nz>
References:  <1994Oct25.171818.25559@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>  <1994Nov01.085847.19144@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>,
Reply-To: quirke_a@ix.wcc.govt.nz
NNTP-Posting-Host: ix.wcc.govt.nz

[Hoffman's text deleted]

   Hoffman, either you're trolling in order to make revisionists look
*really* stupid, or you need psychotherapy. Really.

- Tony Q.
---
Tony Quirke, Wellington, New Zealand (email for phone no)
"...For Mercy has a human heart,   | "Cruelty has a Human Heart,
 Pity a human face,                |  And Jealousy a Human Face,
 And Love, the human form divine,  |  Terror the Human Form Divine,
 And Peace, the human dress." - SoI|  And Secrecy the Human Dress." -SoE.


Article 18554 of alt.revisionism:
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From: karlpov@access1.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ooo! Can I play too? (Hollywood Hate Propaganda)
Date: 3 Nov 1994 12:53:47 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

t08o@amalthea.sun.csd.unb.ca (Morrison) writes:

>May the Great Bird of the Galaxy punish your sacreligious blatther by
>sending a thousand Ferengi encyclopedia salesmen to your door.

Can't resist pointing out, completely irrelevantly, that an article in 
the VILLAGE VOICE months back pointed out that the Ferengi are a sort of 
Trek universe substitute for the Jew in his less palatable stereotype.  
I'd add to this that while the Ferengi represent the demonic Jew 
stereotype, the Bajorans represent the heroic Israeli stereotype.  One 
could also argue that the Bajorans represent heroic Palestinians, making 
the Caradassians demonic Israelis rather than Nazis....


Article 18562 of alt.revisionism:
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From: quirke_a@ix.wcc.govt.nz
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hoffman Away until Nov. 7
Date: 5 Nov 1994 03:59:35 GMT
Organization: Wellington City Council, Public Access
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hoffman2nd@delphi.com writes:

>I will be combining a research trip with the celebration of one of the
>high holidays of the traditional Christian Anglo-Saxon calendar: Guy
>Fawkes Day. I will be back on the Internet Nov. 7. --Michael A.
>Hoffman II.

   For the American readers, this is the Commonwealth's celebration of
a conspiracy that attempted to blow up the English Parliament. It
failed, but ever since, patriotic New Zealanders, Canadians, and
Brits have celebrated by exploding fireworks and getting drunk.

   Oh, and peering towards their respective Heads of State with long
calculating glances...

- Tony Q.
---
Tony Quirke, Wellington, New Zealand (email for phone no)
"...For Mercy has a human heart,   | "Cruelty has a Human Heart,
 Pity a human face,                |  And Jealousy a Human Face,
 And Love, the human form divine,  |  Terror the Human Form Divine,
 And Peace, the human dress." - SoI|  And Secrecy the Human Dress." -SoE.


Article 18565 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.religion.christian,alt.christnet
Subject: Re: Khazars: the self-styled "Jews"
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: 5 Nov 1994 18:12:30 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 304
Message-ID: <39ghue$7kp@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References:    
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rsavage@netcom.com (Rick Savage) wrote:

#  Is this an admission that the modern day "Jews" of Judaism have no 
# physical link to Biblical Israelites, as the 1980 Jewish Almanac 
# confirms?

Frankly, I don't know and I don't care. Again, Judaism is a religion.
One can convert to Judaism and he's a Jew just like any other Jew.
Genetics has nothing to do with it. His children will also be Jews
just like any other Jew. 

BTW, re your previous question: you may not quote me on anything.
I don't trust Nazis to quote me, or anyone else, accurately.

# Were the Palestines every paid reprarations for 
# their lost lands, businesses and homes much like the "Jews" 
# collect from Germany today?

I am not saying Israel is free of guilt, but the plight of the 
Palestinians would have been prevented if the Arab nations 
surrounding Israel in 1948 had not launched a war against it with 
the declared intent of annihilating the country.

Also, what about 800,000 Jews who fled or were kicked out from
Arab lands? They also left everything they had behind. They got
no reparations either. I'm not saying two wrongs make a right
but just pointing this out.

# Absolutely.  The Indians claimed less than 3% of the land legally.  
# The white europeans played by the Indians own rules.  The indians were 
# killing each other off for decades before the whites came.  The whites 
# just played their own game, but were more effective at it.

Is that so? Whites were killing each other also. Study the history
of religious persecution in Europe. How many Christians were
killed by other Christians? What about the crusades? And, anyway,
what right did this give to anyone to slaughter the Indians?

# The holocaust legend is at the heart of the politics of the illegal 
# bandit state of Israeli in Palestine.  It is supported by Zionist 
# Christians because of this guilt inspiring propaganda hoax.  

Following are a few testimonies of people who, unlike you, were
in the Nazi death camps during WW2. Do you have any evidence
their stories are not true? If so, let's see it. If not, shut
your trap. Fair deal?


Testimony of Doctor Charles Bendel (p. 132-133, "The Belsen Trial")
----------------------------------------------------------------
Now it is proper hell which is starting. The sonderkommando tries to
work as fast as possible. They drag the corpses by their wrists in
furious haste. People who had human faces before, I cannot recognize
again. They are like devils. A barrister from Salonica, an electrical
engineer from Budapest - they are no longer human beings because, 
even during the work, blows from sticks and rubber trunceons are being
showered over them. During the time this is going on they continue to
shoot people in front of these ditches, people who could not be got 
into the gas chambers because they were over-crowded. After an hour
and a half the whole work has been done and a new transport has been
dealt with in Crematorium No. 4.


Testimony of Hans-Heintz Schutt, SS-officer at Sobibor
[Quoted in "'The Good Old Days'" - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The 
Free Press, NY, 1988, p. 240]
-------------------------------------------------------------
Getting the detainees into the gas chambers did not always proceed
smoothly. The detainees would shout and weep and they often refused to 
get inside. The guards helped them on by violence. These guards were
Ukrainian volunteers who were under the authority of members of
the SS Kommando. Members of the SS held key positions in the camp, i.e.
one SS man oversaw the unloading, a further SS man led the detainees
into the reception camp, a further SS man was repsonsible for leading
the detainees to the undressing area, a further SS man oversaw the
confiscation of valuables and a further member of the Kommando had
to drive the detainees into the so-called tube which led to the
extermination camp. Once they were inside the so-called tube, which
led them from the hut to the extermination camp, there was no longer
any escape.


From the statement of Hans Stark, registrar of new arrivals, Auschwitz:
[Quoted in "'The Good Old Days'" - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The 
Free Press, NY, 1988, p. 255].
--------------------------------------------------------------
At another, later gassing -- also in autumn 1941 -- Grabner ordered
me to pour Zyklon B into the opening because only one medical orderly
had shown up. During a gassing Zyklon B had to be poured through both
openings of the gas-chamber room at the same time. This gassing was
also a transport of 200-250 Jews, once again men, women and children.
As the Zyklon B -- as already mentioned -- was in granular form, it
trickled down over the people as it was being poured in. They then
started to cry out terribly for they now knew what was happening to
them. I did not look through the opening because it had to be closed
as soon as the Zyklon B had been poured in. After a few minutes there
was silence. After some time had passed, it may have been ten to
fifteen minutes, the gas chamber was opened. The dead lay
higgledy-piggedly all over the place. It was a dreadful sight.


From the testimony of SS-Unterscharfuehrer Wilhelm Bahr:
[Quoted in "Truth Prevails", ISBN 1-879437-00-7, p. 99].
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Q: Is it correct that you have gassed 200 Russian POW's with Zyklon-B?

A: Yes, on orders.

Q: Where did you do that?

A: In Neuengamme [concentration camp].

Q: On whose order?

A: The local doctor, Dr. Von Bergmann.

Q: With what gas?

A: With Prussic acid [another name for Zyklon-B].

Q: How long did the Russians take to die?

A: I do not know. I only obeyed orders.

Q: How long did it take to gas the Russians?

A: I returned after two hours and they were all dead.

Q: For what purpose did you go away?

A: That was during lunch hour.

Q: You left for your lunch and came back afterwards?

A: Yes.

Q: Were they dead when you came back?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you look at their bodies?

A: Yes, because I had to load them.

Q: Why did you apply the gas to the Russians?

A: I only had orders to pour in the gas and I do not know anything
   about it.


SS-Doctor Kremer about his days at Auschwitz: 
[Quoted in 'The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The 
Free Press, NY, 1988, p. 258].
-------------------------------------------------------------------
I remember I once took part in the gassing of one of these groups
of women [from the women's camp in Auschwitz]. I cannot say how
big the group was. when I got close to the bunker I saw them
sitting on the ground. They were still clothed. As they were
wearing worn-out camp clothing they were not left in the undressing
hut but made to undress in the open air. I concluded from the
behavior of these women that they had no doubt what fate awaited
them, as they begged and sobbed to the SS men to spare them their
lives. However, they were herded into the gas chambers and gassed.
As an anatomist I have seen a lot of terrible things: I had had
a lot of experience with dead bodies, and yet what I saw that
day was like nothing I had ever seen before. Still completely
shocked by what I had seen I wrote on my diary on 5 September 
1942: "The most dreadful of horrors. Hauptscharfuehrer Thilo was
right when he said to me today that this is the 'anus mundi', the
anal orifice of the world". I used this image because I could not
imagine anything more disgusting and horrific.


Testimony of SS private Boeck:
[Extracted from "Der Auschwitz Prozess", by Hermann Langbein,
Vol. I, quoted in "Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas 
chambers - J.C Pressac, the Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, NY, 1989,
p. 181].
------------------------------------------------------------------
Q: were you present at a gassing operation one day?

A: Yes, it was one evening. I accompanied the driver Hoeblinger. A
   transport had arrived from Holland and the prisoners had to
   jump from the wagons. They were well-off Jews. There were
   women with Persian furs. They arrived by express train. The
   trucks were already there, with wooden steps before them, and
   the people climbed aboard. Then they all started off. In the
   place Birkenau once stood, there was only a long farmhouse
   (Bunker 2) and beside it four or five big huts. Inside, the
   people were standing on clothes which were building up on
   the floor. The block leader and the sergeant, carrying a cane,
   were there. Hoeblinger said to me 'lets go over there now'. There
   was a sign 'to disinfection'. He said 'you see, they are bringing
   children now'. They opened the door, threw the children in
   and closed the door. There was a terrible cry. A member of the
   SS climbed on the roof. The people went on crying for about
   ten minutes. Then the prisoners opened the doors. Everything
   was in disorder and contorted. Heat was given off. the bodies
   were loaded on a rough wagon and taken to a ditch. The next 
   batch were already undressing in the huts. After that I didn't
   look at my wife for four weeks.


Testimony of Brack, regarding gassing of insane people in Germany
[Quoted in "Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military 
Tribunals" - Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953, Vol. I, 
p. 876-886].
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Q: Witness, when adult persons were selected for euthanasia and sent
   by transport to euthanasia stations for that purpose, by what
   methods were the mercy deaths given?

A: The patients went to a euthanasia institution after the written
   formalities were concluded - I need not repeat these formalities
   here, they were physical examinations, comparison of the files,
   etc. The the patients were led to a gas chamber and were there 
   killed by the doctors with carbon monoxide gas (CO).

Q: Where was that carbon monoxide obtained, by what process?

A: It was in a compressed gas container, like a steel oxygen
   container, such as is used for welding - a hollow steel
   container.

Q: And these people were placed in this chamber in groups, I
   suppose, and then the carbon monoxide was turned into the
   chambers?

A: Perhaps I had better explain this in some detail. Bouhler's
   basic requirement was that the killing should not only be
   painless, but also imperceptible. For this reason, the
   photographing of the patients, which was only done for
   scientific reasons, took place before they entered the
   chambers, and the patients were completely diverted thereby.
   Then they were led into the gas chamber which they were
   told was a shower room. They were in groups of perhaps
   20 or 30. They were gassed by the doctor in charge.
 .
 .
 .

Q. What was done with the bodies of these people after mercy deaths
   were given?

A. When the room had been cleared of gas again, stretchers were
   brought in and the bodies were carried into an adjoining
   room. There the doctor examined them to determine whether they
   were dead.

Q. Then what happened to the bodies?

A. After the doctor had determined death, he freed the bodies for
   cremation and they were cremated.

Q. After he had freed the bodies, had determined that they were
   dead, they were then cremated? Is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. There was a crematory built for every one of these institutions?

A. Yes. Crematoriums were built in the institutions.
 .
 .
 .

Q. And these people thought that they were going in to take a shower
   bath?

A. If any of them had any power of reasoning, they had no doubt
   thought that.

Q. Well now, were they taken into the shower rooms with their
   clothes on or were they nude?

A. No. They were nude.

Q. In every case?

A. Whenever I saw them, yes.


Testimony of SS-Unterscharfuehrer Pery Broad, describing gassing in
Krema I in Auschwitz
[Quoted in "KL Auschwitz as Seen by the SS", p. 176]
-------------------------------------------------------------
 ... The "disinfectors" were at work. One of them was SS-Unterscharfuehrer
Teuer, decorated with the Cross of War Merit. With a chisel and a
hammer they opened a few innocuously looking tins which bore the
inscription "Cyclon, to be used against vermin. Attention, poison!
to be opened by trained personnel only!". The tins were filled to
the brim with blue granules the size of peas. Immediately after
opening the tins, their contents was thrown into the holes which
were then quickly covered. Meanwhile Grabner gave a sign to the driver
of a lorry, which had stopped close to the crematorium. The driver
started the motor and its deafening noise was louder than the
death cries of the hundreds of people inside, being gassed to death.




-Danny Keren.



Article 18581 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: rsavage@netcom.com (Rick Savage)
Subject: Re: Judaism is Not Genetic (was: Re: Death Thr
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:   <5Y9WrA1.hoffman2nd@delphi.com> <39a2a7$lb9@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 17:28:04 GMT
Lines: 38

Danny Keren (dzk@cs.brown.edu) wrote:
:  wrote:

: # I do not believe that many of the
: # people who call themselves >>Jews<< today have any blood ties to 
: # the people of Abraham and Isaac. 

: Mr. Hoffman truly reveals his own racism by writing this. Being a
: Jew has nothing to do with any "blood ties" but with one's
: decision to accept Judaism. Genetics has nothing to do with it.

     This admission disproves all of Judaism's claims that the "Jews" of 
today are "God's Chosen People."  Thanks for the admission.  It also 
disclaims their right to the land in Palestine since this was the claim 
they used to justify their "right" to it.

: I know someone who was a Catholic (from France), and decided to 
: convert to Judaism. He is considered a Jew just like any other Jew.
: He actually married an orthodox Jewish woman.

     Then can the "Jews" of Judaism then finnally denounce their claim to 
be "God's Chosen People," the "People of the Old Testament," the "People 
of the Book (Bible)" once and for all and be done with it?  If you will 
do this I will be happy and will be glad to quote you to every Christian 
I come along who holds this heretical belief.

: Various Nazis often wrongly project their own belief in "the blood" 
: onto others.

     The "Jews" of Judaism merely project their tribal identity unto the 
Jews of the Old and New Testaments of the Bible.  This is a claim and 
belief in "the blood".  If you want to claim otherwise, then please do 
so and can I quote you?
-- 
 _____________________Rick Savage ______________________
|    Important files on life, liberty and happiness:        Rick Savage     | 
|  Anonymous FTP server:  ftp.netcom.com  - "cd pub/SFA"    PO Box 5251     |
|       Gov't, history, law, Bible, socialissues          Denver, CO 80217  |


Article 18588 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Subject: Re: Michael Hoffman Grows Himself an Even Longer Nose
Message-ID: 
Sender: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die
References:   <394i26$l8r@access4.digex.net>  <3991hb$hmq@access4.digex.net> 
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 1994 03:26:19 GMT
Lines: 30

In article , hoffman2nd@delphi.com wrote:
//Stein writes:

//From Israeli journalist Israel Shahak:J>>It should be explained here that terms
//like >other< or >human being< refer in Halacha to Jewish others and Jewish human
//beings alone. When used in Hebrew by rabbis they must have that meaning. The
//same holds true for Yiddish. Although the word >Mensch< is supposed to mean a
//man, it is actually used only in reference to a Jewish man.<<
//
//                                                         --Michael A. Hoffman II

According to Shahak--I just read his book--even the old Biblical
saw, "Love your neighbor/fellow as you love yourself," refers not
to human beings in general but only to Jews in particular. Talk
about unbridled ethnocentrism.

Can anyone here rebut Shahak? I'm not an expert on the subjects
he is taking on in _Jewish History, Jewish Religion_, but he sure
seems to know what he is talking about. And the ideological
temperament he is describing appears to be alive and well in
Brooklyn's _Jewish Press_, one of the most influential Jewish
newspapers in the world (and one in which Yitzhak Shamir
currently contributes a weekly column).

Love your fellow Englishman as you love yourself. Love your
fellow Frenchman as you love yourself. There is a certain lack of
nobility and universalism in those formulations.

If we're going to play the tribal game, then I guess any tribe
can play, and no other tribe can complain.


Article 18589 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Put up or shut up, Mr. Hoffman
Date: Fri, 04 Nov 1994 12:49:12 -0400
Organization: Msen, Inc. -- Ann Arbor, MI (account info: +1 313 998-4562)
Lines: 40
Message-ID: 
References: <1994Oct31.191037.9576@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
   <5W7Vjiu.hoffman2nd@delphi.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: lpi.pnet.msen.com

Okay, let's recap.

Hoffman accused McVay of being, quote, a "police agent."

McVay responded by asking what evidence Hoffman could possibly have
for this.

No answer.

McVay repeated the question, asking "On October 26, 1994, I responded
to this baseless charge by asking you what evidence you had for making
such an allegation, and, further, what you were trying to imply."

Now, Hoffman replies with a collage of questions about McVay's opinions
on free speech (opinions, by the way, which McVay has made absolutely
plain many times in the past).  What any of this has to do with his
"police agent" accusation is anyone's guess:

> No, Mr. McVay you have not responded to the charge. You have not answered
> my detailed questions on your position on your government and your human
> rights (so-called) groups and your Canadian Zionist establishment's policy
> of prosecuting and seeking to imprison Zundel and Keegstra and to jail,
> deport and ban writer David Irving. Will you kindly go on record herein
> condemning the horrid Canadian-Zionist policy of prosecuting publishers,
> teachers and writers? Will you write to the relevant Canadian authorities
> like S. Littman, S. Citron and the government of Canada, protesting this
> inquisition? What is the position of the Pharisee-worshipping church that
> pays you on this issue?
>  
> Kindly >>put up or shut up.<<

Hoffman, what the hell does that have to do with McVay being a, quote,
"police agent"?

What evidence do you have for such an allegation?  Will you just please
answer that question?
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "I am taking landpost's spelling as correct,
  I realize that is not risk-free"  - Daniel Rice


Article 18592 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Michael Hoffman Grows Himself an Even Longer Nose
Date: 6 Nov 1994 07:43:14 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <39i1ei$cpn@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References:  <3991hb$hmq@access4.digex.net>  
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

Wayne, I'm willing to try and discuss Shahak's claim (which you
posted, re the interpretation of "love your neighbour"). I'm not
a scholar of Judaism, and neither is Shahak - he's a chemist.

However, once again, I am amazed at your determination of flooding
this newsgroup with inappropriate articles. You must agree with 
me that this belongs in soc.culture.jewish, right?

Why do you insist to flood alt.revisionism with discussions which
do not belong here? You're not only abusing the newsgroup, you're
also missing a large audience which may very well be interested
in such a topic. Your behavior is really strange.

You've started a discussion on something which IS relevant here;
that is, when did the Nazis decide to exterminate the Jews. Do you
want to continue with it?


-Danny Keren.



Article 18595 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Judaism is Not Genetic (was: Re: Death Thr
In-Reply-To: rsavage@netcom.com's message of Fri, 4 Nov 1994 17:28:04 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  
	<5Y9WrA1.hoffman2nd@delphi.com> <39a2a7$lb9@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
	
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 23:21:34 GMT
Lines: 111


From: rsavage@netcom.com (Rick Savage)
>     This admission disproves all of Judaism's claims that the "Jews" of 
>today are "God's Chosen People."  Thanks for the admission.

Huh? How do you figure? You mean if you're the great-great-great...
grandchild of a convert to Christianity then you can't be "saved" and
thus enter the Kingdom of Christ? By this same reasoning?

I think you're about the only one here who seems to believe that
"god's chosen people" is exclusively an inherited quality.

Go read the Ten Commandments in the bible, as a good start.

Where exactly does it say "Thou shalt not be the son or daughter of a
non-Jew"?

Nowhere.

It says do this, do that, do this, etc, all voluntary acts on the part
of the individual, and you shall be one of God's chosen people, ie, a
Jew. Ok, there are some other things not covered by the Ten
Commandments, Leviticus and all that, but show me where this is
limited to a genetic or racial group.

IT'S A RELIGION. IT BELIEVES THAT IF YOU ACCEPT THE RELIGION YOU HAVE
A SPECIAL RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD. YOU ARE OF THE CHOSEN. YOW, HOW
UNUSUAL!

You are one utterly confused person.

>It also 
>disclaims their right to the land in Palestine since this was the claim 
>they used to justify their "right" to it.

As it would also disclaim any rights claimed by the Catholics to the
Vatican, or Islam to Mecca and Medina etc??? Or dozens of other
nations organized specifically around a religion? The US is actually
the odd one out on this point you know.

I'm not particularly saying it's right or justified, I'm just saying
it's about as common as dirt and your delusion that this is unique to
Judaism is just that; a delusion.

>     Then can the "Jews" of Judaism then finnally denounce their claim to 
>be "God's Chosen People," the "People of the Old Testament," the "People 
>of the Book (Bible)" once and for all and be done with it?

No, because this is what they believe.

It's not a genetic, inherited quality you dunderhead.

Yes indeed the child of Jewish parents (yes I know the rules) is
Jewish.

And the child of Catholics is generally considered Catholic, and those
of Protestants Protestant, Islamic Islam, etc.

Nothing awfully odd about that.

You're confused, you have built an entire hateful belief system on
mere confusion about some stupid point you've imagined being true!

YOU CAN CONVERT TO JUDAISM.

And if you do, YOU ARE A JEW. YOU BECOME ONE OF GOD'S CHOSEN PEOPLE,
according to their theology. Feel free. Wanna become one of God's
Chosen People and recognized as such by every Jew on earth? Call your
local rabbi and CONVERT! Ok, it's not as easy as converting to
Christianity in some mechanical sense, the steps involved, but so
what, surely that's not your complaint.

It's analogous to Christians' tenet that ``Only through belief in
Christ can you enter the Kingdom of Heaven''.

And similar for most any other major, organized Western religion.

BFD, welcome to planet earth.

>If you will 
>do this I will be happy and will be glad to quote you to every Christian 
>I come along who holds this heretical belief.

Nobody cares about this, as we've pointed out you're just mistaken in
your belief system. There's no need for any concession of any sort by
anyone. You may choose to remain confused, or you may come join the
living. But that's your choice to make.

>     The "Jews" of Judaism merely project their tribal identity unto the 
>Jews of the Old and New Testaments of the Bible.

Right, unlike when a Christian speaks of persecution of "their people"
at the hands of the Romans (eg, "Spartacus", lions and christians and
slaves and all that.) Or Protestants review of the Reformation, speak
about members of their branch "fleeing" to America to escape religious
persecution, Pilgrims, Thanksgiving, Hoffman reveling here just
yesterday about his personal celebration of Guy Fawkes day, blah blah
blah.

Right, this is unique to the Jews. Wanna buy a bridge in Brooklyn?

You're a confused person. That's all you've shown here. You have this
deep belief system based on sheer erroneous assumptions, it's not an
opinion, it's just a dumb mistake on your part.


-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 18596 of alt.revisionism:
Xref: oneb alt.revisionism:18596 alt.religion.christian:3684 alt.christnet:4447
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.religion.christian,alt.christnet
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Khazars: the self-styled "Jews"
In-Reply-To: rsavage@netcom.com's message of Fri, 4 Nov 1994 17:45:38 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  
	 
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 00:01:02 GMT
Lines: 211


From: rsavage@netcom.com (Rick Savage)
>: 	a) Does anyone doubt the link between Israel and the
>: 	Jewish *religion*?
>
>       Not anymore than one would doubt the link between the Moonies 
>and the teaching of Jesus Christ.

And you believe it is your role to sit in judgement of whether or not
Moonies are Christians?

And how, exactly, did you attain this high and exalted position?

And, by your theology, who *do* you admit as being Christian enough
for your tastes?

>       The point being Judaism is merely a religion that claims descent 
>from Biblical Israel but is the complete opposite of these beliefs in 
>actual practice.  

Complete opposite? What a stupid thing to say. Would you care to
elaborate on this rather strange point of view. Do you mean they grow
long foreskins, sit all day boiling pork in milk for dinner and
worship multiple Gods? What could you possibly, possibly mean?

>       Is this an admission that the modern day "Jews" of Judaism have no 
>physical link to Biblical Israelites, as the 1980 Jewish Almanac 
>confirms?

What is a "physical link"?

What exactly is your own physical link to your religion that makes you
so smug?

What in the hell are you talking about?

>Can I use you as a reference in correcting the many Christians who 
>believe these lies then?  

No, you can de-confuse yourself, because you are confused.

>     Yes, many "Christian" Zionists belief this fiction beyond the 
>"spiritual" point of view.  You would do them a service by correcting 
>this misconception.

Consider them corrected. Next question?

>: That's independent of whether or not you are comfortable with that
>: spiritual point of view. I'm not, particularly.
>
>    Why not?

Because I don't practice Judaism so don't particularly accept their
beliefs. I also don't practice Christianity so don't accept their
beliefs as holding special authority. Nor Islam, nor buddhism, etc.

But *THEY* believe that.

Just as Christians believe that Christ was God's Son sent to earth to
deliver mankind.

It's a religious belief.

But unless you're willing to abandon your own religious beliefs, for
example, I think we're just going to have to accept that people hold
such beliefs, and not all the same.

Catholics believe that it was ordained that Peter founded the
seat of the Christian Church in Rome, that this was God's Will.
And thus the Vatican is theirs.

Muslims believe that Mecca, Medina and Jerusalem (in particular the
Dome of the Rock and Al'Aqsa) are their holy places. Unfortunately
Jerusalem is claimed by at least three different religions as having
special significance to them. And no matter who "gets it" the other
two are likely to be very, very unhappy tho apparently the Jews and
the Christians have come to a fairly comfortable understanding. The
Muslims remain quite unhappy. It's a difficult problem. It's caused
much contention, warfare and killing these past 1300 years or
thereabouts, or haven't you noticed?

>     Why do you suppose the British yielded palestine to the the 
>immigrating "Jews" of Judaism?

Cost/benefit analysis. They could no longer control it, they
yielded. That's why I used the word "yielded".

Need I point out that this was not the only instance of this? Do words
like India, Iraq, Rhodesia mean anything to you?

>Was the British decision just and legal 
>per International Law?

Sure, of course it was. It was theirs to do as they liked as far as
int'l law was concerned.

Certainly just as much as any basis upon which the British had
acquired Palestine in the first place (as a result of WWI if I
remember correctly, so about 30 years previous?)

British Palestine was split into two pieces. One part became Israel,
the other Jordan. Israel was handed over to the Jews, Jordan to the
Hashemites (King Hussein's father, and his people, Muslims by
religion.)

>Were the Palestines every paid reprarations for 
>their lost lands, businesses and homes much like the "Jews" collect from 
>Germany today?

Did the British pay them? Did the Turks before them?

Actually, apparently this is being settled. A Palestinian homeland is
being constructed right now, right? Next question.

And do you actually, honestly give a damn about Palestinians? Or is it
just an excuse to bash Jews?

For example, what have you done lately about repaying Native Americans
for the land *you* live on?

Or do you only cast stones?

>    Absolutely.  The Indians claimed less than 3% of the land legally.  
>The white europeans played by the Indians own rules.  The indians were 
>killing each other off for decades before the whites came.  The whites 
>just played their own game, but were more effective at it.

Right you dumb fucking piece of shit. WHEN IT COMES TO YOU AND YOURS
MIGHT MAKES FUCKING RIGHT!

But when you decide to judge Jews all of a sudden this bullshit about
international law and reparations comes drooling out of your twisted
little brain.

WHO IN THE FUCK DO YOU THINK YOU ARE KIDDING YOU DUMB HYPOCRITE? JUST
WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE KIDDING?

Boy do you exhibit that typical, loathsome double-standard of bigots
like yourself.

*THEY* have to play nice and follow our idealized concept of "THE
RULES".

*WE* however will nuke their sorry asses to kingdom come if someone so
much as LOOKS at us wrong.

MIGHT MAKES RIGHT! (but only for "us".)

>for the complete legal arguement over the land issue in America.

Legal argument? YOU KILLED THEM. You killed them with the same
rapaciousness you killed the Buffalo. You wiped them out until they
were no longer any challenge to land claims, stuck them on
reservations, starved them, put them on death marches, etc.

And you now have a *LEGAL* argument?

Pardon me while I barf.

Who exactly invited your "white people" to come to North America and
sort out which portion the Native Americans weren't using?

>      The holocaust legend is at the heart of the politics of the illegal 
>bandit state of Israeli in Palestine.

No. It is at the heart of two bit evil f*cking hate-mongers like
yourself who should be damned to hell, to a one.

You have no issue.

You are an evil, low-life, hypocritical, lying hate-mongerer.

I view you and your views with the same loathing I would someone who
sexually molests small children, or professes that it would be a good
idea anyhow (to distinguish mere sick and twisted belief from actual
action.)

You are in the same category as far as I am concerned, and deserve
exactly as much respect. That is, none. You are a loathsome,
hate-ridden insect. Period.

Now why don't you please just go to hell quietly. You profess a
religion of hate and evil and you represent no one. You are not a
Christian, you are just a twisted and evil individual.

>It is supported by Zionist 
>Christians because of this guilt inspiring propaganda hoax.  

Yeah, right, everybody is crazy but you Ricky-boy. Right.

You are one twisted, sick little beast.

Has it ever occurred to you that it may have some relationship to the
significance of Israel to Christians? Have you noticed the Crusades of
the past almost 1300 years, waged by Christians to control the Holy
Lands and keep it out of the hands of the "heretics"?

Don't you get it? Does any light penetrate that disease-ridden skull
of yours? It's only been 1300 years of continuous warfare over the
Holy Land, only 1300 years, YOU MIGHT HAVE TAKEN A HINT BY NOW!

Christians are comfortable with Jews as the caretakers of their Holy
Land. Particularly if the other choice is Muslims.

Now here's a nickel, go buy yourself a clue.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 18605 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Subject: Re: Michael Hoffman Grows Himself an Even Longer Nose
Message-ID: 
Sender: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die
References:  <3991hb$hmq@access4.digex.net>   <39i1ei$cpn@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 1994 13:42:10 GMT
Lines: 45

In article <39i1ei$cpn@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) wrote:

//Why do you insist to flood alt.revisionism with discussions which
//do not belong here? You're not only abusing the newsgroup, you're
//also missing a large audience which may very well be interested
//in such a topic. Your behavior is really strange.

No, your mental horizons are pitifully narrow--few people in this
newsgroup have apparently bothered to acquire a broad liberal
education, one which will provide you with a sense of the true
complexity and richness of history. That is why Ken McVay and
most of the others here could not sit around a table with Paul
Johnson, Richard Pipes, or Arno Mayer and say anything of much
interest about the Holocaust or any other topic.

Holocaust revisionism in the broadest and most legitimate sense
encompasses a wide range of issues. Why did the Holocaust happen?
What was the historical context? What are the deepest roots of
anti-Semitism? Has the Holocaust been wildly and ridiculously
exaggerated compared to other political crimes in this century?
(It most assuredly has: the murder of 100 million innocent
civilians by Marxists has received virtually no attention at all
in Western popular culture.)

Shahak's book is highly relevant to the question of how we assign
relative blame to Jews and non-Jews in what appears at this point
in history to be a never-ending and eternal state of apocalyptic
conflict between Jews and non-Jews all over the world and all
throughout history. (Fifty years ago it was the Nazis; now it is
the Arabs and Muslims; is there any light at the end of this
tunnel? I am beginning to think not. And the state of perpetual
crisis is beginning to grow tiresome for many non-Jews and Jews
alike.)

I once thought that Jews throughout history subscribed to a
tolerant and humanistic religion that was persecuted by a bigoted
Christian tradition. It has come as quite a surprise to learn
from Shahak and others just how deep the bigotry and intolerance
have also run on the Jewish side of the fence. The responsibility
for this dangerous conflict and friction needs to be assigned to
both sides, in proportions that are open to debate.

What was the cultural context of the Holocaust in the largest
sense? That is a legitimate topic in the world of legitimate
revisionism.


Article 18612 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dannya@xs4all.nl (Danny A. Nijburg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 09:37:23
Organization: DAN
Lines: 62
Distribution: world
Message-ID: 
References: <5KxVTkQ.hoffman2nd@delphi.com> <3931t5$gr3@residuum.regent.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de>   <2NOV199409360657@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: slip132-23.xs4all.nl
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In article <2NOV199409360657@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu> dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) writes:
>From: dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
>Subject: Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
>Date: 2 Nov 1994 09:36 MST

>In article , dannya@xs4all.nl (Danny A. Nijburg) writes...
>>In article <31OCT199423103282@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu> dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) writes:

>>>    I submit that while there are many many anti-Nazi movies (and it just
>>>    so happens that the Nazis were a small subset of Germans) there are
>>>    very few genericly anti-German movies.

>>On what basis do you define the Nazis as a >SMALL< subset of Germans?
>>In the last legal elections they got the largest number of votes of all 
>>parties.

>    The last legal elections were held in November 1932.  The Nazis got
>    33.1 percent of the vote.  This was their peak in free and open
>    elections.

They were the largest single block.
It was not their peak, because in July 32 they got 37 percent, as did Hitler 
personally in the elections for president the same year.

>    After a decade of economic depression, and after several years of
>    infighting and assassinations which weakened the other far-right
>    parties in Germany, the Nazis peaked at about one third of the popular
>   electoral vote.  I still submit that their following was a small subset
>   of Germans.

>    Remember, times were very bad in Germany in 32.  Hitler ran a populist
>    campaign blaming the problems on Jews and outsiders.  People were fed
>    up with the current government, saw them as ineffective (which may well
>    have been true) and were open to change.  Other far-right parties were
>    in shambles beccause of infighting.  Hitler may have looked like a
>    viable option to many among the lower educated working classes.  But
>    getting 1/3 of the votes do not make 1/3 of Gemany Nazis.

Why not ? If 30% of Americans vote Republican, can you not say that 30% of 
Americans are Republicans ?

>    And, correct me if I am wrong - I don't have reference materials in
>    front of me, wasn't the November 32 campaign a rather dirty campaign
>    with lot of lies (more than the usual) being spread?  Did people really
>    understand what they were voting for in 32?

At least as much as the electorate in any other country at any other time.

Furthermore, after the Nazi takeover, i.e. Hitler being elected Reichskanzler 
with the support of Catholics like von Papen and Conservative nationalists, 
popular support quickly grew even further.





                                         /\\\\           
Danny A. Nijburg                         (@|@)          
--------------------------------------ooO-(v)-Ooo-----
Victorieplein 47-2                        ~%~          
1078 PD Amsterdam- The Netherlands                                         
Phone/Fax +31 20 671 7711             Do unto others.....


Article 18614 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uunet!news1.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Judaism is Not Genetic
Date: 6 Nov 1994 11:10:47 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <39iv67$5av@access1.digex.net>
References:  <5Y9WrA1.hoffman2nd@delphi.com> <39a2a7$lb9@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article ,
Rick Savage  wrote:
>Danny Keren (dzk@cs.brown.edu) wrote:
>: Mr. Hoffman truly reveals his own racism by writing this. Being a
>: Jew has nothing to do with any "blood ties" but with one's
>: decision to accept Judaism. Genetics has nothing to do with it.
>
>     This admission disproves all of Judaism's claims that the "Jews" of 
>today are "God's Chosen People."  Thanks for the admission.  It also 
>disclaims their right to the land in Palestine since this was the claim 
>they used to justify their "right" to it.

    Of course, Rick Savage argues out of both sides of his mouth.  On
the one hand, he says that the lack of blood descent invalidates any
theological claim by a modern Jew to be one of the "chosen people" - that
one cannot *join* the chosen people by simple conversion.  However, when
it comes to Identity Christianity, all of a sudden it seems to become
something you *can* choose, and is not restricted to descendants of
Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. 

    Not that I ever thought Rick was capable of consistent logical 
thought, mind you....
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 18618 of alt.revisionism:
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From: karlpov@access3.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Khazars: the self-styled "Jews"
Date: 5 Nov 1994 11:43:43 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 31
Message-ID: 
References:   
NNTP-Posting-Host: access3.digex.net

rsavage@netcom.com (Rick Savage) writes:

>    First of all there are two sources for the Khazar connection at:
>      ftp.netcom.com /pub/SFA/Bible  Facts_are_Facts (by B. Freedman)
>      ftp.netcom.com /pub/SFA/history 13th_Tribe_Review (Koestler)

>    Here is a newspaper article as well:

None of your sources gives any real evidence for your thesis that
present-day Jews are of dominantly Khazar ancestry.  I don't know why I
would care.  I have no doubt that despite the prophet Ezra's excoriations
against the shiksas of his time, today's Jews are descended from many far
outside the line of Abraham bar Terach.  What proportion (if any) of their
ancestry might be Khazar is anybody's guess.  Using a surname to determine
a person's "pure" ancestry, as did your latest source, is rather obviously
cretinous, but I suppose that's what to expect of anyone who swallows the
fantasies of Christian Identity. 

I don't think it's entirely wrong to resent the founding of modern Israel
as constituting a European solution, using non-European territory, to
solve a European problem (antisemitism, that is, not Jews).  However,
Israel has also taken in the Jewish populations of the countries of the
Middle East and North Africa, which in my mind more than justifies its
existence. 

Anyone interested in the origin of Rick's idiocies should check out the
recent book RELIGION AND THE RACIST RIGHT: THE ORIGINS OF THE CHRISTIAN
IDENTITY MOVEMENT, by Michael Barkun (Chapel Hill/London:  University of
North Carolina Press, 1994)A.  It all started with those relatively
harmless Limey eccentrics who thought Brits were a Lost Tribe of Israel. 



Article 18634 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Subject: Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
Message-ID: 
Sender: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die
References: <5KxVTkQ.hoffman2nd@delphi.com>
	<3931t5$gr3@residuum.regent.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de>
	
	<397scu$mmn@residuum.regent.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de>
	 
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 1994 04:39:22 GMT
Lines: 40

In article ,
bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) wrote:

//Ok, you're on: Two recent movies portraying obviously Jewish stars as
//scum:

//2. Warren Beatty's recent portrayal of Bugsy Siegel, the ruthless
//Mafia gangster.

Well, I think we have established with certainty that Barry
Shein's critical abilities in judging movies leave a good deal to
be desired.

_Bugsy_ is hardly Barry Levinson's best film (_Diner_ is my
favorite), but there can be little doubt that Levinson here was
trying to do for the Jews what Francis Ford Coppola did for the
Italians: present their criminals as romantic and swashbuckling
American entrepreneurs and self-starters taking a walk on the
wild side. In no respect whatever was _Bugsy_ an anti-Jewish
film. Sidney Zion's new book on this subject is in the same
genre.

Can you imagine, though, being proud of having created a shithole
like Las Vegas?

One could do a systematic content analysis of major motion
pictures during the last few years, comparing the frequency of
anti-Arab, pro-Arab, anti-Jewish, pro-Jewish, anti-Christian,
pro-Christian, anti-Muslim, pro-Muslim, anti-Nazi, pro-Nazi,
anti-Communist, and pro-Communist stereotypes.

I can't recall many movies in which Jews were portrayed as
viciously as Arabs and Muslims were in, say, _True Lies_. Perhaps
you can. I can think of many movies in which Christians have been
ridiculed. I can't think of any movies in which religious Jews
have been similarly treated.

Do you think we will see a docudrama on ABC, CBS, or NBC about
the madness of Menachem Schneerson and his followers, who
proclaimed him the Messiah? Bet not. The howls, the howls!


Article 18644 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uunet!world!wmcguire
From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Subject: Re: Michael Hoffman Grows Himself an Even Longer Nose
Message-ID: 
Sender: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die
References:    <39i1ei$cpn@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>  <1994Nov6.230955.5841@uklirb.informatik.uni-kl.de>
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 14:11:27 GMT
Lines: 21

In article <1994Nov6.230955.5841@uklirb.informatik.uni-kl.de>,
stschulz@informatik.uni-kl.de (Stephan Schulz) wrote:

//BTW, Wayne, did you notice that on the one hand you demand answers
//form Ken McVay within hours, while, on the other hand, you yourself
//are absent for weeks and, even if you reappear, do not address much of
//the responses to your postings?

Guy, do you realize how many posts I receive here? If I answered
all of them, it would be a full-time job and everyone here would
be annoyed and charging me with trying to dominate the newsgroup.

I answer whatever posts I can get to. I NEVER evade answering any
specific posts, because I never, ever commit anything to print
that I am not willing to back up in detail.

You asked for information on the 100 million victims of Marxism.
I've posted the information three or four times now. Look it up
in the archives or look it up yourself. I've fulfilled my
responsibilities many times over in providing documentation to
support my various assertions.


Article 18645 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uunet!world!wmcguire
From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Subject: Re: Judaism is Not Genetic
Message-ID: <9RZlk0yNUsKA073yn@world.std.com>
Sender: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die
References:   <5Y9WrA1.hoffman2nd@delphi.com>  <5NOV199408031487@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu>
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 14:16:41 GMT
Lines: 25

In article <5NOV199408031487@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu>,
dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

//    They may or may not have a "right" to Palestine/Israel.  But don't they
//    claim that right based *in part* on the religious link to the land?

It's amazing to discover that many Jews are as ignorant of their
own historical and cultural tradition as Christians and Muslims
are of theirs.

Most of the founders of Israel were Marxists and atheists, not
religionists of any kind. In fact most of them despised religion.
Many of them were also Jewish racialists or Jewish racists:
Vladimir Jabotinsky is an excellent example.

There is a deep strain of biological determinism within important
schools of Judaism itself. Menachem Schneerson, for instance, was
a product of that school, and his ideology could rightly be
described as fusing religion with racism.

I am seeing as many lies and distortions and tawdry propaganda on
this issue as I saw about Mideast politics in
talk.politics.mideast. All of this deception does little to
enhance the credibility of these people when they try to talk
about the Holocaust.


Article 18652 of alt.revisionism:
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From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Subject: Re: Judaism is Not Genetic
Message-ID: 
Sender: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die
References:  <5Y9WrA1.hoffman2nd@delphi.com> <39a2a7$lb9@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>  <39lh1q$gaj@louie.udel.edu>
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 15:47:09 GMT
Lines: 116

In article <39lh1q$gaj@louie.udel.edu>,
carroll@stimpy.eecis.udel.edu (Mark C. Chu-Carroll) wrote:

//Only in your sick little mind, Rick... Y'see, you've got this
//obsession with racism... and you demand that the Chosen People be a
//*racial* group. But that's not what Judaism claims - nor has it ever
//been what we've claimed. Judaism has always been a *religion*, which
//outsiders could join.

If anyone wants to complain about the relevancy of this thread,
then direct your complaints to the people who started it, not me.

In fact, very few outsiders ever join or are encouraged to join.
Judaism is much more ethnocentric than Christianity, Islam, or
Buddhism, although it would be unfair to characterize Judaism as
a whole as racialist or racist.

Christians and Buddhists do not, for instance, define themselves
in nationalistic, ethnocentric, or tribalistic terms.
Christianity does not manifest itself through a particular
physical nation (like Israel) or through a particular ethnic
group (like the Jews, who are as much an ethnic as a religious
group). Christians do not comprise an ethnic group, nor do
Muslims or Buddhists.

Perhaps you could provide some insightful commentary on the
passage below, which discusses the racist elements in Lubavitch
ideology. The Lubavitchers are one of the most influential
religious Jewish sects of the 20th century. Your remarks above
are a tremendous over-simplification and distortion of what is
going on these days in the whole and complex world of Judaism.

----------------------------------------------------------------



.book review

author=Allan Nadler
title=Despite All Odds: The Story of Lubavitch
magazine=The New Republic
date=May 4, 1992
volume=206
number=18
pages=27(8)

excerpt=

There is a sense in which these efforts at undermining the
secular character of American public life are perfectly
consistent with classical Habad theology. Hasidism's insistence
on the immanence of God in creation, and especially its mystical
refusal to acknowledge the reality of a purely physical realm of
existence bereft of holiness, abhors a saeculum. The idea of a
polity deliberately conceived as secular, that is, the idea of a
polity such as America's, is anathema to the mystic whose
theology does not allow for the reality of a profane realm of
existence. And yet there are some powerful ironies in Habad's new
messianic universalism, in its mission to the gentiles; and
surely the most unpleasant of them concerns Habad's otherwise
undisguised and even racial contempt for the "goyim."

In the normative rabbinic and Jewish philosophical traditions,
Israel's choseness was most commonly seen to derive from God's
revelation of the Torah at Mount Sinai. It was the uniqueness of
their religion, not of their race, that distinguished Jews from
others. Only a very small number of idiosyncratic medieval Jewish
theologians--most notably the poet and philosopher Judah Ha-Levi
in twelfth-century Spain and the mystic Judah Loewe in
sixteenth-century Prague--sought to define the Jewish distinction
racially rather than spiritually.

Yet it was precisely this minority view, according to which there
is something innately superior about the Jews, that was
rehabilitated in its most extreme form by Shneur Zalman of Lyady.
The founder of Lubavitcher Hasidism taught that there is a
difference of essence between the souls of Jews and the souls of
gentiles, that only in the Jewish soul does there reside a spark
of divine vitality. As for the goyim, here is Foxbrunner's
characterization of Shneur Zalman's attitude:

Gentile souls are of a completely different and inferior order.
They are totally evil, with no redeeming qualities whatsoever.
Consequently, references to gentiles in Rabbi Shneur Zalman's
teachings are invariably invidious. . . . Their material
abundance derives from supernal refuse. Indeed, they themselves
derive from refuse, which is why they are more numerous than the
Jews, as the pieces of chaff outnumber the kernels. . . . All
Jews were innately good, all gentiles innately evil. Jews were
the pinnacle of creation and served the Creator, gentiles its
nadir and worshiped the heavenly hosts.

Shneur Zalman's racism far exceeded the much more limited
religious elitism of the few earlier rabbis who subscribed to a
racial theory of Jewish choseness. It is virtually without
precedent and without parallel in the history of Jewish thought.
Moreover, this characterization of gentiles as being inherently
evil, as being spiritually as well as biologically inferior to
Jews, has not in any way been revised in later Habad writing. The
obvious incompatibility of this racist view of the gentiles with
Habad's current missionizing to them is something that the
Lubavitchers have not even begun to acknowledge or to address.
These are matters that their partisan historians deliberately
obscure, as they cling to the myth that Habad Hasidism is
essentially ahistorical and impervious to change....



Now, here is the $64,000 question: why didn't the American mass
media as a whole expose the virulent racism within this movement?
In fact, the U.S. Congress just approved that a medal of honor of
some kind be awarded to Menachem Schneerson.

What, really, is the difference between the Christian Identity
movement and the Lubavitchers? Both are movements which fuse
religion with racism.


Article 18661 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Hoffman succeeds in one goal, then...
Date: 6 Nov 1994 11:22:13 -0500
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NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <1994Nov04.000714.9552@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>,
Ken Mcvay  wrote:
>In article <3931t5$gr3@residuum.regent.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de>, 
>erd@regent.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de (Eric Doenges) writes: >
>>Let's look at this list to highlight some error:
>
>[Devastating exposure of Hoffman's intellectual failures deleted]
>
>You overlooked one important reality: Hoffie isn't _interested_ in
>facts - he's selling his book, and his "research" rag, and trying to
>make money by spreading racial hatred and maximizing Jewish pain.

    In that last goal he is succeeding.  My sides ache from laughing at 
his pathetic attempts to extricate himself from his proven lie about 
why he said my Hebrew was not too great.  And I fear the fun is only just 
beginning - time to post my response, I think....  >:-)>
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 18666 of alt.revisionism:
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From: flax@aristotle.algonet.se (Jonas Flygare)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Michael Hoffman Grows Himself an Even Longer Nose
Date: 07 Nov 1994 19:15:26 GMT
Organization: AlgoNet Public Access Node, Stockholm
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	 <39i1ei$cpn@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
	
	<1994Nov6.230955.5841@uklirb.informatik.uni-kl.de>
	
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In-reply-to: wmcguire@world.std.com's message of Mon, 7 Nov 1994 14:11:27 GMT

In article  wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) writes:

   I answer whatever posts I can get to. I NEVER evade answering any
   specific posts, because I never, ever commit anything to print
   that I am not willing to back up in detail.


O thankyouthankyouthankyouthankyouthankyouthankyouthankyou wayne!
Now, can you _please_ back your post, where you called me a Marxist
Zionist? (Remember, you stated you knew me well from my _numerous_
posts on t.p.m?)

Still waiting..
--
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DNA copyright 1962 - 1994 by Jonas Flygare, Copyright yours before IBM does.


Article 18668 of alt.revisionism:
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From: stschulz@informatik.uni-kl.de (Stephan Schulz)
Subject: Re: Michael Hoffman Grows Himself an Even Longer Nose
Message-ID: <1994Nov6.230955.5841@uklirb.informatik.uni-kl.de>
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Date: Sun, 6 Nov 1994 23:09:55 GMT
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In article , wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) writes:
|> In article <39i1ei$cpn@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) wrote:

[...McGuire-speak deleted...]

|> Holocaust revisionism in the broadest and most legitimate sense
|> encompasses a wide range of issues. Why did the Holocaust happen?
|> What was the historical context? What are the deepest roots of
|> anti-Semitism? Has the Holocaust been wildly and ridiculously
|> exaggerated compared to other political crimes in this century?
|> (It most assuredly has: the murder of 100 million innocent
|> civilians by Marxists has received virtually no attention at all
|> in Western popular culture.)

I am still waiting for your response to my question about this 100
million claim. If it is that important to you, would you bother to
give a more detailed list of these 100 million? Are these political
victims or victims in (civil) wars?If the later, do you count the
casualties of one side or of both sides?

As the Harvard trained historian that you are, do you recognize that
"the Marxists" are a far more diverse group as "the Nazis" have been?
Why don't we deal with the awful crimes of "the humans" - they surpass
everything either Nazis or "Marxists" ever did...

|> Shahak's book is highly relevant to the question of how we assign
|> relative blame to Jews and non-Jews in what appears at this point
|> in history to be a never-ending and eternal state of apocalyptic
|> conflict between Jews and non-Jews all over the world and all
|> throughout history. (Fifty years ago it was the Nazis; now it is
|> the Arabs and Muslims; is there any light at the end of this
|> tunnel? I am beginning to think not. And the state of perpetual
|> crisis is beginning to grow tiresome for many non-Jews and Jews
|> alike.)

What about the "apocalyptic conflict between non-Americans and
Americans?" Fifty years ago it was the Nazis, then the Russians, the
Vietnamese, the Cubans, the Columbian Drug Lords...

Postulating a conflict between "non-Members of an ethnic group and
Members of an ethnic group" will give you nearly perpetual war for
every major group on this planet. There is not _one_ conflict between
Jews and non-Jews - there are a number of different conflicts between
different groups. The Jews that live in Israel today are a distinct
group from the Jews of eastern Europe in 1940 (there is a continuity,
but there also is a lot of change).

|> I once thought that Jews throughout history subscribed to a
|> tolerant and humanistic religion that was persecuted by a bigoted
|> Christian tradition. It has come as quite a surprise to learn
|> from Shahak and others just how deep the bigotry and intolerance
|> have also run on the Jewish side of the fence. The responsibility
|> for this dangerous conflict and friction needs to be assigned to
|> both sides, in proportions that are open to debate.

Oh boy - you really believed that the Jews are a lilly-white group,
totally devoid of the intolerant subgroups that nearly any other
ethnic group has? 

BTW, Wayne, did you notice that on the one hand you demand answers
form Ken McVay within hours, while, on the other hand, you yourself
are absent for weeks and, even if you reappear, do not address much of
the responses to your postings?


Stephan

-------------------------- It can be done! ---------------------------------
    Please email me as stschulz@informatik.uni-kl.de (Stephan Schulz)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------



Article 18671 of alt.revisionism:
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From: ljz@panix.com (Lloyd Zusman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.religion.christian,alt.christnet
Subject: Re: Khazars: the self-styled "Jews"
Followup-To: alt.revisionism,alt.religion.christian,alt.christnet
Date: 07 Nov 1994 21:43:15 GMT
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In-reply-to: rsavage@netcom.com's message of Mon, 7 Nov 1994 16:29:37 GMT

In article , rsavage@netcom.com (Rick Savage) writes:

>      1.  It was a law common among Indians that the stronger of 
> two tribes or people (nations) has the right to conquer and subdue 
> the weaker.
>      2.  Under Indian common law it was understood that land 
> claims existed by inhabiting the land and by any use of the land.
>      3.  When any land was unoccupied or not used for one year, 
> the land was free for anyone to claim and settle.

Please provide documentation for 1, 2, and 3 above.  There were many
nations of natives here before the Europeans arrived.  Did they all
adhere to the exact, same "common law"?
 
>      This first law of the Indians could actually render all other 
> arguments of land rights academic.  This law was almost a way of 
> life with the Indian, which is why they were always warring among 
> themselves, and perhaps why they were so few in number.  The 
> wars and conflicts between the white race and the Indian race 
> throughout history are numerous, and the fact that the white race 
> was the stronger cannot be doubted.

Please provide documentation for your claim that the American natives
"were always warring among themselves."

-- 
Lloyd Zusman    	01234567 <-- The world famous Indent-o-Meter.
ljz@panix.com           ^	     I indent thee.
   To get my PGP public key automatically mailed to you, please
   send me email with the following string as the subject:
                    mail-request public-key


Article 18678 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dspiegel@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (Dan Spiegel)
Subject: Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
Message-ID: 
Organization: Ohio University CS Dept,. Athens
References:   
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 01:27:09 GMT
Lines: 66

In article  wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) writes:
>In article ,
>bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) wrote:
>
>//Ok, you're on: Two recent movies portraying obviously Jewish stars as
>//scum:
>
>//2. Warren Beatty's recent portrayal of Bugsy Siegel, the ruthless
>//Mafia gangster.
>
>Well, I think we have established with certainty that Barry
>Shein's critical abilities in judging movies leave a good deal to
>be desired.
>
>_Bugsy_ is hardly Barry Levinson's best film (_Diner_ is my
>favorite), 

Who cares? Why would we care what movies some asshole likes?

>	    but there can be little doubt that Levinson here was
>trying to do for the Jews what Francis Ford Coppola did for the
>Italians: present their criminals as romantic and swashbuckling
>American entrepreneurs and self-starters taking a walk on the
>wild side. 

Are you seriously trying to imply that Sicilian and Italian-Americans 
*liked* the image that the Godfather movies portrayed of their
culture?

>[tripe deleted]
>
>I can't recall many movies in which Jews were portrayed as
>viciously as Arabs and Muslims were in, say, _True Lies_. Perhaps
>you can. I can think of many movies in which Christians have been
>ridiculed. I can't think of any movies in which religious Jews
>have been similarly treated.

Would it make you happier if you could? How about 60 Minutes tonight?
There was a pretty damning portrayal of Kiryas Joel. I'll be waiting
for you to somehow imply that the entire religion is corrupt due to
the actions of some greedy megalomaniacs.
>
>Do you think we will see a docudrama on ABC, CBS, or NBC about
>the madness of Menachem Schneerson and his followers, who
>proclaimed him the Messiah? Bet not. The howls, the howls!

Nice obsession with MM Schneersohn herein demonstrated yet again. 
Previously, I requested this asserter to supply some documentation of
an earlier undocumented attack on the Lubavitcher Rebbe. He, as always,
provided none. 

Why does this poster constantly deign to stand in judgement of the
religious beliefs and practices of others? I ask again, knowing that
it will not be provided: Document what you refer to as "madness", or
(ha, ha) admit that you are spouting about things you know nothing about.

The only howls here are howls of laughter at someone who presents 
himself as some superior intellect, but is constantly revealed as
a paper tiger with a couple of pathetic obsessions.

Oh, as always, WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH ALT.REVISIONISM?

| -DS 	I speak for myself only.  No unsolicited e-mail, please. 	  |
|	    Please do not use my name in any subject headers.		  |
| Obligatory quote: "Sometimes one must cut off a finger to save a hand"  |
|		    -Po, lowly priest of Hunan province, Shao-Lin Master  |


Article 18683 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Judaism is Not Genetic (was: Re: Death Thr
Date: 5 Nov 1994 08:03 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
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In article , rsavage@netcom.com (Rick Savage) writes...
>Danny Keren (dzk@cs.brown.edu) wrote:
>:  wrote:

>: # I do not believe that many of the
>: # people who call themselves >>Jews<< today have any blood ties to 
>: # the people of Abraham and Isaac. 

>: Mr. Hoffman truly reveals his own racism by writing this. Being a
>: Jew has nothing to do with any "blood ties" but with one's
>: decision to accept Judaism. Genetics has nothing to do with it.

>     This admission disproves all of Judaism's claims that the "Jews" of 
>today are "God's Chosen People."  Thanks for the admission.  It also 
>disclaims their right to the land in Palestine since this was the claim 
>they used to justify their "right" to it.

    Rick, why does this admission disprove Judaism's claim?  God is a
    religious concept, not a racial concept.  Doesn't it make sense that a
    claim to be God's chosen people be a religious claim?

    Note: as an atheist, I don't put much stake in any religion's claim to
    be chosen.  But I fail to see why this seems to get taken out of a
    religious context when it is applied to the Jews' claim.

    They may or may not have a "right" to Palestine/Israel.  But don't they
    claim that right based *in part* on the religious link to the land? 
    Isn't that different than claiming a direct hereditary link to the
    land?  And isn't the other part of their claim simply that Britain gave
    them the land?
===========================================================================
daniel david mittleman     -     danny@arizona.edu     -     (602) 621-2932


Article 18689 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hoffman's Kastner claim stands up
Date: 8 Nov 1994 07:06:28 GMT
Organization: Brown University
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 wrote:

# The revisionist case for Belzec, Treblinka and Sobibor has not
# been entirely convincing.

True.

# According to technical reports from the U.S. Bureau of Mines and to private
# scientific research to which I am privy, diesel engines can be made extremely
# lethal with a few minor adjustments.

Yes, like restricting the air intake. This was discussed here at
length. Can you specify the U.S. Bureau of Mines source? Thanks.


-Danny Keren.



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From: cave@bony.rand.org (Jonathan Cave)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Judaism is Not Genetic (was: Re: Death Thr
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In article ,
Rick Savage  wrote:
>Barry Shein (bzs@world.std.com) wrote:

>     I believe the Bible defines who are "god's chosen people".  It is 
>rather plain.  If you are ignorant of the reference I can post them.  
>Then we can show how the modern day "Jews" of Judaism do not fit any of 
>the qualifications.  

OK, Rick, go ahead.

>    Judaism is a religion.  The only admission I want is it find's no 
>basis in the Christian Bible, but rather their Babylonian Talmud.  The 64 
>volumes of the Talmud are a mind-bending justification for doing 
>everything the Bible condemns.  This is why it is antithetical to the 
>Bible and the Christian Religion.

Which parts of the Bible are you writing out of the "Christian Bible" Rick?
Kings for starters, that's clear.  Want to go for the whole OT?



Article 18700 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
In-Reply-To: hoffman2nd@delphi.com's message of Mon, 7 Nov 94 19:33:45 -0500
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	<3931t5$gr3@residuum.regent.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de>
	
	<397scu$mmn@residuum.regent.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de>
	 
	
	
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 07:03:28 GMT
Lines: 26


From: hoffman2nd@delphi.com
>Well, let us see, last February a certain Israeli army officer was in the
>news doing bad things Americans don't like: he butchered scores of Muslim
>men and boys while they knelt in prayer.
> 
>Will this get slammed in the movies any time soon? Do not hold your breath.

Well, since other Israeli army officers shot him to death on the spot
there really isn't much of a basis for the story you seem to want
here, is there.

I assume you're just disappointed because the story was featured so
prominently and unambiguously in the ZIONIST-JEWISH-WORLD-CONTROL
media.

But I guess you had to figure out *some* way to get some mileage out
of it...they haven't made a movie out of it...what a swell complaint
hoffman-sub-2...gak.


-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 18705 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Judaism is Not Genetic
Date: 9 Nov 1994 00:38:13 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <39pn85$jam@access4.digex.net>
References:   <39iv67$5av@access1.digex.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article ,
Rick Savage  wrote:
>     Go argue with the Judeo-Christians.  They still believe the myth 
>that the "Jews" of Judaism are the literal blood descendants of the Jews 
>of the Old and New Testaments.

    You mean that there are none left?  What happened to them?  Did you
decide that the Nazis killed them all off after all? 


>Since you don't believe in this fiction 
>then you are perfectly welcom to ridicule it all you want.

    Thank you for your misunderstanding.  I merely said that religiously,
someone who converts to Judaism is a Jew.  I did not say that every Jew is
a convert of the descendant of one.  I do not believe this, and I have a
perfectly good reason to think that I *am* a literal blood descendant of
the Jews of the Old Testament.  Think about it for a minute, you might be
able to figure out what I'm talking about. 


>     Your second comment is interesting.  I thought "Identity" 
>Christianity believed that God does the choosing, not us choosing God.

    Well, the converts to Christianity "chose" it, and could not have 
been "chosen" unless they had made their complementary choice first, right?
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 18708 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
Date: 8 Nov 1994 07:35:49 GMT
Organization: Brown University
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References: <5KxVTkQ.hoffman2nd@delphi.com>  
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

 wrote:

# Well, let us see, last February a certain Israeli army officer was in the
# news doing bad things Americans don't like: he butchered scores of Muslim
# men and boys while they knelt in prayer.

1) For the record, he was not an "Israeli army officer". He was in
   the reserve forces, but everyone in Israel is.

2) I was trying to recall what ever became of that American hero,
   Lt. Calley. Calley and his boys murdered 400 innocent people in
   My-Lai, in one day: women, children, and old men. I recall (from
   a truly excellent documentary) that Calley shot 80 of them 
   himself.

   Now, whatever happened to that good old boy? He spent 1.5 years
   in house arrest, did he not? Didn't many "patriotic
   organizations" loudly and furiously protest any attempt to
   punish him? Wasn't he considered a hero and described as a
   hero by many Americans? 

# Will this get slammed in the movies any time soon? Do not hold your breath.

Shortly ago, a Palestinian terrorist blew up a bus in Tel-Aviv,
killing 22 Israelis. Is anyone making a movie on that, yet?


-Danny Keren.




Article 18710 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
Date: 8 Nov 1994 12:15:43 GMT
Organization: Brown University
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Message-ID: <39nq5f$f4a@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References: <5KxVTkQ.hoffman2nd@delphi.com>  <39n9ol$3pa@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

 wrote:
# Danny Keren  writes:

## 1) For the record, he was not an "Israeli army officer". He was in
##    the reserve forces, but everyone in Israel is.

# Nonsense. The Haredim do not serve. 

True, but he was not a "Haredi", so it's not really relevant.

# Goldstein, the army officer, was wearing
# his uniform when he opened fire and gained entrance to the Tomb of the
# Patriarchs due to his military status.

He wore his uniform, true, probably to appear less suspicious. No
one can tell what went on in his twisted mind. However, he was not
an army officer, but served in the reserve forces.

Is this really that important?


-Danny Keren.



Article 18718 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Judaism is Not Genetic
In-Reply-To: wmcguire@world.std.com's message of Mon, 7 Nov 1994 15:47:09 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  <5Y9WrA1.hoffman2nd@delphi.com>
	<39a2a7$lb9@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> 
	<39lh1q$gaj@louie.udel.edu> 
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 05:50:11 GMT
Lines: 84


From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
>In fact, very few outsiders ever join or are encouraged to join.
>Judaism is much more ethnocentric than Christianity, Islam, or
>Buddhism, although it would be unfair to characterize Judaism as
>a whole as racialist or racist.

Judaism is not proselytizing. Stop looking at everything through your
Christian-colored-glasses.

You're right, Jews didn't march, star of david in hand, through crowds
of heathens in Africa or the Americas shouting ``domini domini domini,
yer all Christians'', er, Jews, whatever.

And the phrase "convert or die" is not often associated with Judaism,
is it?

Gimmee a break. They don't proselytize.

>Christians and Buddhists do not, for instance, define themselves
>in nationalistic, ethnocentric, or tribalistic terms.

Oh, right, I guess that explains why all those folks were fleeing to
America to escape religious persecution. Who where they being
persecuted by, Wayne? Taoists?

And I won't even mention what's been going on in Northern Ireland
between Catholics and Protestants for most of this century (oops, I
guess I did mention it.)

Why do you think Germany and Austria exist as two separate countries?
Hint: The Austrians are Roman Catholics.

What do you think the dividing lines in the war in the former
Yugoslavia are?

What do you think has been causing all the friction between the
British and the French these past 400+ years?

What exactly *was* the Thirty Years War about? Or the Glorious
Revolution? And what was all that stuff between Henry VIII and the
Pope about? And Mary, Queen of Scots?

And hey, HOWSABOUT THOSE CRUSADES!

This is comedy, right? You're joking, tell me you're joking.

>Christianity does not manifest itself through a particular
>physical nation (like Israel)

You mean you've never heard of the Vatican State?

That's *AMAZING*!

>Christians do not comprise an ethnic group, nor do
>Muslims or Buddhists.

Unlike, oh, the Black Ethiopian Jews, or the Sephardim, the Ashkenazi,
etc.?

>The Lubavitchers are one of the most influential
>religious Jewish sects of the 20th century.

The Lubavitchers are mostly harmless crackpots Wayne. They're a
charismatic sect.

They are as representative of Judaism as the Amish are of
Protestantism.

The Lubavitchers are one of the major branches of the Chassidic
movement founded in the early/mid-19th century in and around Warsaw,
Poland. These are the folks with the wide-brimmed hats and the long,
curled sideburns and the heavy gray frock coats they wear in Jerusalem
and Brooklyn in the summer.

You are either truly full of shit, or deluded, or both. I say both.

Fuck you Wayne, seriously, Fuck you.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 18719 of alt.revisionism:
Xref: oneb alt.revisionism:18719 alt.religion.christian:3704 alt.christnet:4455
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.religion.christian,alt.christnet
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Khazars: the self-styled "Jews"
In-Reply-To: rsavage@netcom.com's message of Mon, 7 Nov 1994 16:29:37 GMT
Message-ID: 
Followup-To: alt.revisionism,alt.religion.christian,alt.christnet
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  
	 
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 06:01:16 GMT
Lines: 27


From: rsavage@netcom.com (Rick Savage)
>  At the 
>time of discovery (circa 1500 A.D.), the American Indian 
>numbered about 700,000 inhabitants, sparsely scattered over what 
>is now America.

There were about 6 million Incas living in Mexico at the time of the
European discovery.

There were 10-12 million Indians living in North America at the same
time.

What are you talking about?

Instead of raving like a madman why don't you just pick up an
encyclopaedia for 5 minutes.

Thus far we have demonstrated, once again, that your entire twisted
belief system resembles a spelling error.


-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 18720 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Judaism is Not Genetic (was: Re: Death Thr
In-Reply-To: rsavage@netcom.com's message of Mon, 7 Nov 1994 16:41:07 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  
	 
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 06:17:32 GMT
Lines: 64


From: rsavage@netcom.com (Rick Savage)
>: I think you're about the only one here who seems to believe that
>: "god's chosen people" is exclusively an inherited quality.
>
>     I believe the Bible defines who are "god's chosen people".  It is 
>rather plain.  If you are ignorant of the reference I can post them.  

Yes, please do post them and we will see who is ignorant. Please stick
to the Old Testament.

Any comment on your recent claim that there were only 750,000 Indians
living in the Americas in 1500 when every other reference seems to put
the number in North America and Mexico alone at closer to TWENTY
MILLION.

Yes, ignorant, you're right, there are certainly ignorant people
around here...

>: Go read the Ten Commandments in the bible, as a good start.
>
>   And how does this relate to defining "God's chosen people"?

I dunno, it's your nightmare.

>: Where exactly does it say "Thou shalt not be the son or daughter of a
>: non-Jew"?  Nowhere.
>
>      Where does it say anything about "Jews" being "God's Chosen 
>People"?  Nowhere.

Actually, there's not a word of english in the whole thing.

>: It says do this, do that, do this, etc, all voluntary acts on the part
>: of the individual, and you shall be one of God's chosen people, ie, a
>: Jew. Ok, there are some other things not covered by the Ten
>: Commandments, Leviticus and all that, but show me where this is
>: limited to a genetic or racial group.
>
>   Does it?  Where does it say this?  Where do you find the word "Jew" in 
>any of it?  The word "Jew" doesn't even show up until the book of Kings.  
>Long after Leviticus.  Any good Bible Concordance can show you this.

Any good concordance in English, right?

And what has the word "jew" got to do with anything?

What exactly is your point?

>     Thanks for clearing that up.  Thanks for clearing up the 
>misconception regarding the "Jews" claim to being "God's Chosen People".  
>It is not based on the Bible or the God of the Bible but their religion 
>ONLY.  This is what I've been saying all along. 

Huh?

As I've said before, your entire bizarre belief system resembles, upon
examination, a spelling error.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 18721 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Judaism is Not Genetic
In-Reply-To: rsavage@netcom.com's message of Mon, 7 Nov 1994 16:49:13 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  <5Y9WrA1.hoffman2nd@delphi.com>
	<39a2a7$lb9@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> 
	<39iv67$5av@access1.digex.net> 
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 06:22:00 GMT
Lines: 17


From: rsavage@netcom.com (Rick Savage)
>     Go argue with the Judeo-Christians.  They still believe the myth 
>that the "Jews" of Judaism are the literal blood descendants of the Jews 
>of the Old and New Testaments.

Cite, please?

Sorry Rick, but given your recent track record if you came thru the
door dripping wet and told me it was raining I would feel compelled to
look out the window just to be sure.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD

Article 18733 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
Date: Wed, 09 Nov 1994 06:20:24 -0400
Organization: Msen, Inc. -- Ann Arbor, MI (account info: +1 313 998-4562)
Lines: 19
Message-ID: 
References: <5KxVTkQ.hoffman2nd@delphi.com>
   
   
   <39cdf1$7ko@prime.mdata.fi>
   <39ln4d$kd6$1@garnet.msen.com>
   
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wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) wrote:

> The lawyer was played by Sean Penn, not Art Garfunkel, for
> Christ's sake.

You're the second person to correct me, Wayne, though you are
the first to do so publicly, and the first to be profane about it.

Thank you for expanding my store of knowledge.

> I've seen Paul
> Newman, a Jew, give a terrific performance as an Irishman.

Yah, and I've seen Emma Thompson do a fantastic job impersonating
an American.  That "acting" stuff is amazing, isn't it?
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "I am taking landpost's spelling as correct,
  I realize that is not risk-free"  - Daniel Rice


Article 18738 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: rsavage@netcom.com (Rick Savage)
Subject: Re: Judaism is Not Genetic (was: Re: Death Thr
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:   
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 16:41:07 GMT
Lines: 85

Barry Shein (bzs@world.std.com) wrote:

: From: rsavage@netcom.com (Rick Savage)
: >     This admission disproves all of Judaism's claims that the "Jews" of 
: >today are "God's Chosen People."  Thanks for the admission.

: Huh? How do you figure? You mean if you're the great-great-great...
: grandchild of a convert to Christianity then you can't be "saved" and
: thus enter the Kingdom of Christ? By this same reasoning?

    Thanks for your misunderstanding, next...

: I think you're about the only one here who seems to believe that
: "god's chosen people" is exclusively an inherited quality.

     I believe the Bible defines who are "god's chosen people".  It is 
rather plain.  If you are ignorant of the reference I can post them.  
Then we can show how the modern day "Jews" of Judaism do not fit any of 
the qualifications.  

: Go read the Ten Commandments in the bible, as a good start.

   And how does this relate to defining "God's chosen people"?

: Where exactly does it say "Thou shalt not be the son or daughter of a
: non-Jew"?  Nowhere.

      Where does it say anything about "Jews" being "God's Chosen 
People"?  Nowhere.

: It says do this, do that, do this, etc, all voluntary acts on the part
: of the individual, and you shall be one of God's chosen people, ie, a
: Jew. Ok, there are some other things not covered by the Ten
: Commandments, Leviticus and all that, but show me where this is
: limited to a genetic or racial group.

   Does it?  Where does it say this?  Where do you find the word "Jew" in 
any of it?  The word "Jew" doesn't even show up until the book of Kings.  
Long after Leviticus.  Any good Bible Concordance can show you this.

: IT'S A RELIGION. IT BELIEVES THAT IF YOU ACCEPT THE RELIGION YOU HAVE
: A SPECIAL RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD. YOU ARE OF THE CHOSEN. YOW, HOW
: UNUSUAL!

    Judaism is a religion.  The only admission I want is it find's no 
basis in the Christian Bible, but rather their Babylonian Talmud.  The 64 
volumes of the Talmud are a mind-bending justification for doing 
everything the Bible condemns.  This is why it is antithetical to the 
Bible and the Christian Religion.

: You are one utterly confused person.

    Because I don't understand your confusion?

: >     Then can the "Jews" of Judaism then finnally denounce their claim to 
: >be "God's Chosen People," the "People of the Old Testament," the "People 
: >of the Book (Bible)" once and for all and be done with it?

: No, because this is what they believe.
: It's not a genetic, inherited quality you dunderhead.

     Thank you, this is the only admission I needed.  I'm happy and you 
can call me any name you need to appease your sense of self-righteousness.

: Yes indeed the child of Jewish parents (yes I know the rules) is
: Jewish.


: YOU CAN CONVERT TO JUDAISM.
: And if you do, YOU ARE A JEW. YOU BECOME ONE OF GOD'S CHOSEN PEOPLE,
: according to their theology. Feel free. Wanna become one of God's
: Chosen People and recognized as such by every Jew on earth? Call your
: local rabbi and CONVERT! Ok, it's not as easy as converting to
: Christianity in some mechanical sense, the steps involved, but so
: what, surely that's not your complaint.

     Thanks for clearing that up.  Thanks for clearing up the 
misconception regarding the "Jews" claim to being "God's Chosen People".  
It is not based on the Bible or the God of the Bible but their religion 
ONLY.  This is what I've been saying all along. 
-- 
 _____________________Rick Savage ______________________
|    Important files on life, liberty and happiness:        Rick Savage     | 
|  Anonymous FTP server:  ftp.netcom.com  - "cd pub/SFA"    PO Box 5251     |
|       Gov't, history, law, Bible, socialissues          Denver, CO 80217  |


Article 18743 of alt.revisionism:
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From: kauhunen@mits.mdata.fi (Kari Nenonen)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Michael Hoffman Grows Himself an Even Longer Nose
Date: 9 Nov 1994 23:00:49 GMT
Organization: Mits BBS, Helsinki, Finland (40+ Nodes +358-0-4582066)
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <39rkb1$ce@prime.mdata.fi>
References:    
NNTP-Posting-Host: mits.mdata.fi

In article ,
Staffan Friberg  wrote:

>And, while you're at it, Mr McGuire, could you also explain why you called me
>a marxist as well? I'm appearently only a marxist and not a marxist zionist
>but I guess that'll have to do.
>
>(Jonas, kan du inte ge negra lektioner?)

Tar det lungt, Staffan. F|r Mr McGuire allt som kan r|ra till v{nster {r
marxist. Och allt some kan r|ra till v{nster och har ett Jude namn, {r
marxist zionist. 


>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ \\ //  AMIGA +++
>+ Staffan Friberg                   +  EMail:           \X/           +
>+ Undergraduate student  Chemistry  +                                 +
>+ Linkvping University              +  InterNet: staff@rabbit.augs.se +
>+ Sweden                            +  FidoNet:  2:204/404.2  or      +
>+                                   +            2:204/418.9          +
>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>"Don't laugh - this is science"
>                     (James Randi)

.

-- 
Kari Nenonen   - kauhunen@mits.mdata.fi          - Skepsis r.y.
Maavallintie 4 - Tel: 358-0-5636625              - Helsingin Scifiseura
00430 Helsinki - The Finnish Dramatists' Society - Wan.Her.Tiet.Kirj.N.H
Finland        - The Writers' Union of Finland   - The International J.C.


Article 18750 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Subject: Re: Michael Hoffman Grows Himself an Even Longer Nose
Message-ID: <6h9mk0yNU-0S073yn@world.std.com>
Sender: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die
References:  <3991hb$hmq@access4.digex.net>   <1994Nov6.230955.5841@uklirb.informatik.uni-kl.de> <6NOV199421060551@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 09:47:50 GMT
Lines: 17

In article <6NOV199421060551@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>,
dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

//    If Wayne did what you say he did, "he's an asshole, a putz,
//    and a schmuck."  (To quote a poster who insists he never lowers
//    himself to ad hominum arguments.)

Nah, guy: what should all you folks have all the fun wallowing in
the mud. Now and then I'll throw a hard elbow, too, to get into
the swing of things.

But I will get back on substance right quick. Ad hominem attacks
are BORING.

Anyone who in any way justifies terrorism as a method to squelch
free speech is worse than an asshole, a schmuck, and a putz in my
book. Maybe you dig terrorism.


Article 18766 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hoffman's Kastner claim stands up
Date: Wed, 09 Nov 1994 07:27:51 -0400
Organization: Msen, Inc. -- Ann Arbor, MI (account info: +1 313 998-4562)
Lines: 47
Message-ID: 
References: 
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hoffman2nd@delphi.com wrote:

> I am not saying that persons identified as >>Jews<< were in fact gassed at
> Sobibor, Treblinka and Belzec; only that I am open to the possibility that this
> occurred, especially in small numbers on an ad hoc basis.

Let me get this straight.

You accept that diesel gassing was technically possible at the Reinhard
camps, right?

But you doubt that hundreds of thousands of Jews were killed at each camp.

Why?  What evidence don't you believe?  What evidence makes you believe
otherwise?  Can you give me one good reason why the gassing, which you
admit happened, did not happen on the scale that historians tell us it did?

> If this in fact occurred in any appreciable numbers, I believe it took place
> only as a result of the real fear the Nazis had that no matter what they did or
> did not do, the >>Jewish<< influence among the Allied powers would bring about
> the extermination of the German people.

Now, this is just amazing.

You begrudgingly admit that maybe hundreds of thousands of Jews _were_
killed at the Reinhard camps -- but that the Nazis had a good reason.

That reason being that they were scared of what the Jews in Allied
countries would do to them.

So their logic would have gone something like...what?  "The Jews in
the U.S. will make the U.S. fight us.  I have an idea!  Let's kill a
few million of them!"

The Nazis couldn't figure out that Jews in Allied countries were already
ready to go to war, and that exterminating the Jews in occupied
territory would only strengthen their resolve?  Or didn't they think
it that far through?  "Oh, gee, I guess those American Jews are really
mad at us now.  Oops."

What in the hell are you thinking of, Hoffman?

Posted and emailed.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "I am taking landpost's spelling as correct,
  I realize that is not risk-free"  - Daniel Rice


Article 18775 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: Hoffman claims he knows Hebrew, it's his English that sucks
Date: 9 Nov 1994 23:29:48 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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In article ,   wrote:
>What a puddle of Talmudic puke. And now Stein reveals his sodomite
>inclinations while claiming to be a true Hebrew.
> 
>--Michael A. Hoffman II

    Wow, wotta devastating rebuttal.


-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 18776 of alt.revisionism:
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From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Subject: Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
Message-ID: 
Sender: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die
References: <5KxVTkQ.hoffman2nd@delphi.com>
  
   
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In article ,
k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

//> I've seen Paul
//> Newman, a Jew, give a terrific performance as an Irishman.
//
//Yah, and I've seen Emma Thompson do a fantastic job impersonating
//an American.  That "acting" stuff is amazing, isn't it?

Ho, hum: what an inane comeback. Your comments about Hollywood
and film don't appear to be any more interesting, informative or
(above all) creative than your remarks about Arno Mayer. Like Ken
McVay you have a tendency to sink into a robotlike and uninspired
recitation of cliches about whatever subject comes under your
earnest gaze. You are way over your head on the subject of movies
and the media, obviously.

I take it you don't want to dispute the fact that Jews are vastly
overrepresented at the highest levels of the movie industry, and
that all other ethnic and religious groups are vastly
underrepresented.

Now, when this was the case in the American banking and financial
industries--that is, when those industries were thoroughly
dominated by WASPs (as they once were)--there were heard many
angry complaints about anti-Semitism in those industries, and
charges that they were nothing but an insular WASP country club.
How different is the response when the situation is reversed in
another industry, and one at least as strategic in its overall
influence and impact as the banking and financial industries.
Then one can run into no end of ingenious apologetics for what is
clearly a discriminatory system.

I thought you wanted to debate Mayer. I'm game. Perhaps you could
respond to the post I put up yesterday with the subject heading
"Arno Mayer." Please demonstrate in a factual and rational way
what is not kosher about that particular Mayer passage. Then
please list the specific passages with precise page numbers in
Mayer you are prepared to critique in debate with me, and we will
have at it.

Also please post your reading notes for Mayer here, if you don't
mind. I'll be happy to post mine if you want them.

In another post I think you described my views on the Middle East
as "occluded" (I confess I was skimming the messagebase at
lightning speed when the word caught my eye). The correct term,
Jamie, is "knowledgeable": I am quite knowledgeable about Mideast
politics. Anytime you want to meet me in a formal debate on ANY
aspect of Mideast politics--you pick the subject--I am your
humble servant.

Mideast politics is a much more vital and rich subject than the
Holocaust, and certainly much more relevant to what is going on
in the real world today. Israel and the Holocaust are profoundly
intertwined in many ways: read, for instance, Tom Segev's The
Seventh Million, which is one the finest books on both Israel and
the Holocaust published during recent years.

I will challenge you to a formal debate on a Holocaust-related
topic right now. Assertion: Marxist Holocaust denial has been
practiced in a more systematic way among more influential
institutions than Nazi Holocaust denial. I've just come across
new information on this subject from a number of sources that has
convinced me that you are dead wrong when you deny this is the
case. I am so confident that you are dead wrong, in fact, that I
hereby challenge you to a formal debate on the issue. I frankly
don't give a damn who the moderator is; the facts will stand up
by themselves regardless. The history of much of the Western
intelligentsia in dealing with Marxist crimes all through the
century, and well into the present, is a scandal that makes the
"revisionist" phenomenon look trivial indeed.

Why don't you present me with a list of the Hollywood movies in
which the mass murder angle on Marxism has been explored in depth.


Article 18778 of alt.revisionism:
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From: martev 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Victims of hoffmoron
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 19:11:40 -0500 (EST)
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Mime-Version: 1.0
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In-Reply-To:  


I think Mr Hoffmoron's very, hoo boy was it long, (maybe we need a 
limit on lengths) lengthy  post was quite a work of art. Of course it's 
humor is contagious.

In fact, I have excerpted a number of his statements and will be posting 
them as examples of a sick mind at work on a few of the Internet things I am 
on, plus on some of the on-line services. I will give him and the IHR due 
credit, believe me....

If ever the IHR needed explaining, or a way to show people what we have been 
talking about, he provides excellent examples of hate and disgust. 

If ever there was a fine example of a sick mind at work it is here. 

Just a short time here, and what an education I'm getting...

Gotta spread the word...

I must thank him for providing us with such great tools to work with...

Article 18791 of alt.revisionism:
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From: btrosko@primenet.com (Brian Trosko)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Hoffman's back!
Date: 10 Nov 1994 01:22:54 GMT
Organization: The Trilateral Commission
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X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]


Joy happy joy. Mike Hoffman's back from celebrating Guy Fawkes day! Hey, 
Mikey, you're not planning on blowing up the Justice department anytime 
soon, are you? (After all, Guy Fawkes was just an innocent German who was 
betrayed by the Joosh-controlled Parliament.  The Parliamentarians were 
all just Pharisee-worshipping lackeys of the International Joosh 
Conspiracy, right, Mikey?)


hoffman2nd@delphi.com wrote:
: Ken Mcvay  writes:
:  
: >A fascinating document, which I recently obtained, and which Mr.
: >Hoffman II mentioned in his strange attempt to discredit my work.
: >The Court clearly blasts the DoJ, while just as clearly damning
: >Demjanjuk's participation in Aktion Reinhard. Sorry for the length -
:  
: Why is telling the truth about Mr. McVay >>strange?<<
:  
: The document you have posted shows the U.S. Justice Department to have
: been the evil bureaucracy that I said it was. This is further testimony
: to the true nature of your mission, since your >>supporter<< is a high
: official in the Justice Department.
: --Michael A. Hoffman II



Article 18801 of alt.revisionism:
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From: stschulz@informatik.uni-kl.de (Stephan Schulz)
Subject: Re: Khazars: the self-styled "Jews"
Message-ID: <1994Nov8.194849.23211@uklirb.informatik.uni-kl.de>
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Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 19:48:49 GMT
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In article , rsavage@netcom.com (Rick Savage) writes:

|> INDIANS AND THE WHITE MAN
|>  
|>      What about the Indians?  Weren't they here first?  Didn't we 
|> (the white race) take this land away from the Indian?  Doesn't the 
|> Indian have the rightful title to America?
|>      Since we are dealing with a conflict between two nations or 
|> races, the white race and the Indian race, we need to turn to the 
|> Law of Nations or International Law for the solution.

Wrong! First, this is a question of morality, not of
legality. Secondly, international law was only forming during much of
the conquest of both americas. Thirdly, as you stated yourself,
"indians" were no nations, but a kind of people. So, international law
is not at all appliciable.

|> The 
|> following are some basic maxims of the International Law:
|>      FIRST: That every nation possesses an exclusive sovereignty 
|> and jurisdiction in its own territory.
|>      SECOND:  That no state or nation can by its law directly affect 
|> or bind property that lies outside of its own territory, or persons 
|> not resident therein.
|>      THIRD:  That whatever force the laws of one country have in 
|> another depends solely on the municipal laws of the latter.
|>      -"Harper's Encyclopedia of United States History."  Harper & 
|> Brothers Publishers, Vol. V, 1901 (International Law)

And your dictinary is to young to cover most of the conquest period,
and to old to be of relevance for today...

|>      The first principal listed here would seem to suggest that all of 
|> America was the possession of the Indians prior to the age of 
|> discovery by  the white race.  However, the Indians never laid 
|> claim to all of America because they had no understanding of its 
|> size or boundaries.

And neither had the first European settlers...

|>  The Indian only claimed the land he was 
|> inhabiting and that which he used for hunting, burial, etc.  At the 
|> time of discovery (circa 1500 A.D.), the American Indian 
|> numbered about 700,000 inhabitants, sparsely scattered over what 
|> is now America.  

The 700,000 claim has been refuted by more than one person - where did
you get this number? Typing "tongues" today? 

|>Thus the Indians never had a legal claim to much 
|> more than 3% of the land at any one time.  

How did you arrive at that number? The Indians roamed all over
America. Although the population density was not very high, most parts
of the continent were frequented. Also, how do you know that no
Indian, never, stood up and "claimed" the land ("From Sunset to
Sundawn")? 

[...]

|> The third maxim of International Law says we have to 
|> look at the Indian's law, and that whatever measures or acts the 
|> white man makes in regards to Indian land must be pursuant to 
|> Indian law.  AT this point then we need to look at some laws that 
|> were held by the Indians:

The Indians did not have a single body of Law, but many conflicting
and vague laws and customs among different tribes.

|>      1.  It was a law common among Indians that the stronger of 
|> two tribes or people (nations) has the right to conquer and subdue 
|> the weaker.

???? It was? Where do you get this? 

And where did this differ from European customs? It was common enough
- this does not make it morally (or legally) right.

|>      2.  Under Indian common law it was understood that land 
|> claims existed by inhabiting the land and by any use of the land.

No, by most Indian customs the land belonged to all people - most
Indian tribes had no concept of "land ownership" either by individuums
or by tribes.

[...]

|> (The following excerpts were used from these history sources:  
|> (Edward Eggleston, "A History Of The United States And Its 
|> People," 1888.
|> (Gertrude Southworth, "A First Book In American History," 
|> 1919.
|> (Hezekiah Butterworth, "The Story of America," 1898.
|> (John Bassett, Ph.D., "A Short History of The United States: 
|> 1492-1929," 1933.)

Interesting - and so very up to date. Is it surprising that a book
written in 1888 is somewhat one-sided? At that time most people still
believed in the natural right of "the white man" to conquer and
civilize the "heathens"...

[...]

|>      History reveals that all the early hostilities and wars between 
|> the American Indians and the white settlers, were instigated by or 
|> first carried out by the Indians.  Even though the white settlers had 
|> legal title to the land by way of purchase or claim of unoccupied 
|> lands, the Indian was always the one to disrupt peaceful relations 
|> with attacks, massacres, and wars.  The retaliation by the white 
|> settlers were merely acts of self defense and self preservation in 
|> accordance with the law of nature.  Thus it was the Indian who 
|> was the intruder and violator of land rights.  It was the Indian who, 
|> in the beginning, wronged the white man.  The Indian's treachery, 
|> barbaric and warlike manners, and sneak attacks on the colonist 
|> was positive proof of the anti-social nature of the red man.  This 
|> exhibit of the Indian's character caused much distrust of the Indian 
|> continued to live by and uphold in the future.

Interesting - another case of revisionism. Did you include any
_Indian_ accounts?

|>      Thus, the white race has a rightful and legal claim and title to 
|> America pursuant to international law, the Indian's law, the law of 
|> nature, and by a combination thereof.
|>  
|> From the book, _America: Free, White, & Christian_, by Charles A. Weisman, 
|> pgs. 52-56 

I see. Impressive!

A note: I have heard rumors that American Indians do not like to be
called "Indians". Nevertheless, I have not heard anything concret, and
I am used to this phrase (German has "Indianer" for aboriginal
Americans, and "Inder" for people from east India).


Stephan

-------------------------- It can be done! ---------------------------------
    Please email me as stschulz@informatik.uni-kl.de (Stephan Schulz)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------



Article 18805 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Michael Hoffman Grows Himself an Even Longer Nose
In-Reply-To: wmcguire@world.std.com's message of Wed, 9 Nov 1994 09:47:50 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  <3991hb$hmq@access4.digex.net>
	 
	<1994Nov6.230955.5841@uklirb.informatik.uni-kl.de>
	<6NOV199421060551@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 01:32:31 GMT
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From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
>Anyone who in any way justifies terrorism as a method to squelch
>free speech is worse than an asshole, a schmuck, and a putz in my
>book. Maybe you dig terrorism.

So then why do you continue to refuse to denounce the IRA's terrorist
activities?


-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 18808 of alt.revisionism:
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From: schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richard Schultz)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Michael Hoffman Grows Himself an Even Longer Nose
Date: 8 Nov 1994 17:48:04 GMT
Organization: Philosophers of the Dangerous Maybe
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In article ,
Wayne McGuire  wrote:

>I NEVER evade answering any
>specific posts, because I never, ever commit anything to print
>that I am not willing to back up in detail.

You might start by explaining how you came to completely misstate not
only the number of books published by the Beate Klarsfeld Foundation that are 
listed on HOLLIS, but also the number of citations of Pressac's book in
the scholarly literature.

After that, it should be relatively easy to tell us about Hill & Wang,
publishers, and their scholarly reputation.

Just a polite suggestion or two.
--
				Richard Schultz

"It is terrible to die of thirst in the ocean.  Do you have to salt your
truth so heavily that it does not even quench thirst any more?"


Article 18818 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The "Jager Report" and Mayer's Thesis (was: Re: Hollywoo
Date: 10 Nov 1994 20:58:19 GMT
Organization: Brown University
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Wayne McGuire  wrote (to Jamie McCarthy):

# I thought you wanted to debate Mayer. I'm game. 

Ok. Below is a rather detailed report by the commander of a
certain "Einsatzkommando", about the murder of more than
130,000 people, the large majority of them Jews, in Nazi-occupied
USSR, between July-November 1941. IMHO this proves that the
systematic murder of the Jews began not, as you seem to claim,
towards the end of 1941, but right after the Nazis invaded the
USSR. Note, BTW, that this report covers only a certain area,
not all of Nazi-occupied USSR. 

Mayer does have one point: the mass murder in the "Einsatz
Reinhard" camps (Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka) began later.
However, the report below poses a problem to his thesis.


Detailed report by SS-Standartenfuehrer Jager about mass killings
in Nazi occupied USSR, July-November 1941
['The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The Free Press, 
NY, 1988, p. 46-58].
------------------------------------------------------------------

The Commander of
the security police and
the SD
Einsatzkommando 3     Kauen [Kaunas], 1 December 1941

--------------------------
|Secret Reich Business!  |             5 copies
--------------------------             4th copy

      Complete list of executions carried out in the EK 3 area
      up to 1 December 1941

Security police duties in Lithuania taken over by Einsatzkommando 3 on
2 July 1941.
(The Wilna [Vilnius] area was taken over by EK 3 on 9 Aug. 1941, the
Schaulen area on 2 Oct. 1941. Up until these dates EK 9 operated in
Wilna and EK 2 in Schaulen.)
On my instructions and orders the following executions were conducted by
Lithuanian partisans:

4.7.41       Kauen-Fort VII    416 Jews, 47  Jewesses                463
6.7.41       Kauen-Fort VII    Jews                                  2,514

Following the formation of a raiding squad under the command of
SS-Obersturmfuherer Hamman and 8-10 reliable men from the
Einsatzkommando. the following actions were conducted in cooperation
with Lithuanian partisans:

7.7.41       Mariampole        Jews                                  32
8.7.41       Mariampole        14 Jews, 5 Comm. officials            19
8.7.41       Girkalinei        Comm. officials                       6
9.7.41       Wendziogala       32 Jews, 2 Jewesses, 1 Lithuanian
                               (f.), 2 Lithuanian Comm., 1
                               Russian Comm.                         38
9.7.41       Kauen-Fort VII    21 Jews, 3 Jewesses                   24
14.7.41      Mariampole        21 Jews, 1 Russ., 9 Lith. Comm.       31
17.7.41      Babtei            8 Comm. officials (incl. 6 Jews)       8
18.7.41      Mariampole        39 Jews, 14 Jewesses                  53
19.7.41      Kauen-Fort VII    17 Jews, 2 Jewesses, 4 Lith.
                               Comm., 2 Comm. Lithuanians (f.),
                               1 German Comm.                        26
21.7.41      Panevezys         59 Jews, 11 Jewesses, 1
                               Lithuanian (f.), 1 Pole, 22 Lith.
                               Comm., 9 Russ. Comm.                  103
22.7.41      Panevezys         1 Jew                                 1
23.7.41      Kedainiai         83 Jews, 12 Jewesses, 14 Russ.
                               Comm., 15 Lith. Comm., 1 Russ.
                               O-Politruk                            125
25.7.41      Mariampole        90 Jews, 13 Jewesses                  103
28.7.41      Panevezys         234 Jews, 15 Jewesses, 19 Russ.
                               Comm., 20 Lith. Comm.                 288

                                      Total carried forward        3,384


Sheet 2
                                      Total carried over           3,384

29.7.41      Rasainiai         254 Jews, 3 Lith. Comm.               257
30.7.41      Agriogala         27 Jews, 11 Lith. Comm.               38
31.7.41      Utena             235 Jews, 16 Jewesses, 4 Lith.
                               Comm., 1 robber/murderer              256
31.7.41      Wendziogala       13 Jews, 2 murderers                  15
1.8.41       Ukmerge           254 Jews, 42 Jewesses, 1 Pol.
                               Comm., 2 Lith. NKVD agents, 1
                               mayor of Jonava who gave order
                               to set fire to Jonava                 300
2.8.41       Kauen-Fort IV     170 Jews, 1 US Jewess, 33 Jewesses,
                               4 Lith. Comm.                         209
4.8.41       Panevezys         362 Jews, 41 Jewesses, 5 Russ. Comm.,
                               14 Lith. Comm.                        422
5.8.41       Rasainiai         213 Jews, 66  Jewesses                279
7.8.41       Utena             483 Jews, 87 Jewesses, 1 Lithuanian
                               (robber of corpses of German soldiers)571
8.8.41       Ukmerge           620 Jews, 82 Jewesses                 702
9.8.41       Kauen-Fort IV     484 Jews, 50 Jewesses                 534
11.8.41      Panevezys         450 Jews, 48 Jewesses, 1 Lith. 1 Russ.500
13.8.41      Alytus            617 Jews, 100 Jewesses, 1 criminal    719
14.8.41      Jonava            497 Jews, 55 Jewesses                 552
15-16.8.41   Rokiskis          3,200 Jews, Jewesses, and J. Children,
                               5 Lith. Comm., 1 Pole, 1 partisan     3207
9-16.8.41    Rasainiai        294 Jewesses, 4 Jewish children       298
27.6-14.8.41 Rokiskis          493 Jews, 432 Russians, 56 Lithuanians
                               (all active communists)               981
18.8.41      Kauen-Fort IV     689  Jews, 402 Jewesses, 1 Pole (f.),
                               711 Jewish intellectuals from Ghetto
                               in reprisal for sabotage action       1,812
19.8.41      Ukmerge           298 Jews, 255 Jewesses, 1 Politruk,
                               88 Jewish children, 1 Russ. Comm.     645
22.8.41      Dunanburg          3 Russ. Comm., 5 Latvian, incl. 1
                               murderer, 1 Russ. Guardsman, 3 Poles,
                               3 gypsies (m.), 1 gypsy (f.), 1 gypsy
                               child, 1 Jew, 1 Jewess, 1 Armenian
                               (m.), 2 Politruks (prison inspection
                               in Dunanburg                          21


                                      Total carried forward        16,152


Sheet 3
                                      Total carried forward        16,152

22.8.41      Aglona            Mentally sick: 269 men, 227 women,
                               48 children                           544
23.8.41      Panevezys         1,312 Jews, 4,602 Jewesses, 1,609
                               Jewish children                       7,523
18-22.8.41   Kreis Rasainiai   466 Jews, 440 Jewesses, 1,020
                               Jewish children                       1,926
25.8.41      Obeliai           112 Jews, 627 Jewesses, 421
                               Jewish children                       1,160
25-26.8.41   Seduva            230 Jews, 275 Jewesses, 159
                               Jewish children                       664
26.8.41      Zarasai           767 Jews, 1,113 Jewesses, 1 Lith.
                               Comm., 687 Jewish children, 1 Russ.
                               Comm. (f.)                            2,569
28.8.41      Pasvalys          402 Jews, 738 Jewesses, 209
                               Jewish children                       1,349
26.8.41      Kaisiadorys       All Jews, Jewesses, and Jewish
                               children                              1,911
27.8.41      Prienai           All Jews, Jewesses, and Jewish
                               Children                              1,078
27.8.41      Dagda and         212 Jews, 4 Russ. POW's               216
             Kraslawa
27.8.41      Joniskia          47 Jews, 165 Jewesses, 143
                               Jewish children                       355
28.8.41      Wilkia            76 Jews, 192 Jewesses, 134
                               Jewish children                       402
28.8.41      Kedainiai         710 Jews, 767 Jewesses, 599
                               Jewish children                       2,076
29.8.41      Rumsiskis and     20 Jews, 567 Jewesses, 197
             Ziezmariai        Jewish children                       784
29.8.41      Utena and         582 Jews, 1,731 Jewesses, 1,469
             Moletai           Jewish children                       3,782
13-31.8.41   Alytus and
             environs          233 Jews                              233

1.9.41       Mariampole        1,763 Jews, 1,812 Jewesses, 1,404
                               Jewish children, 109 mentally sick,
                               1 German subject (f.), married to a
                               Jew, 1 Russian (f.)                   5090

                                      Total carried over           47,814


Sheet 4
                                      Total carried over           47,814

28.8-2.9.41  Darsuniskis       10 Jews, 69 Jewesses, 20
                               Jewish children                       99
             Carliava          73 Jews, 113 Jewesses, 61
                               Jewish children                       247
             Jonava            112 Jews, 1,200 Jewesses, 244
                               Jewish children                       1,556
             Petrasiunai       30 Jews, 72 Jewesses, 23
                               Jewish children                       125
             Jesuas            26 Jews, 72 Jewesses, 46
                               Jewish children                       144
             Agriogala          207 Jews, 260 Jewesses, 195
                               Jewish children                       662
             Jasvainai         86 Jews, 110 Jewesses, 86
                               Jewish children                       282
             Babtei            20 Jews, 41 Jewesses, 22
                               Jewish children                       83
             Wendziogala        42 Jews, 113 Jewesses, 97
                               Jewish children                       252
             Krakes            448 Jews, 476 Jewesses, 97
                               Jewish children                       1,125
4.9.41       Pravenischkis     247 Jews, 6 Jewesses                  253
             Cekiske           22 Jews, 64 Jewesses, 60
                               Jewish children                       146
             Seredsius         6 Jews, 61 Jewesses, 126
                               Jewish children                       193
             Velinona          2 Jews, 71 Jewesses, 86
                               Jewish children                       159
             Zapiskis          47 Jews, 118 Jewesses, 13
                               Jewish children                       178
5.9.41       Ukmerge           1,123 Jews, 1,849 Jewesses, 1,737
                               Jewish children                       4,709
25.8-6.9.41  Mopping up in:    16 Jews, 412 Jewesses, 415
             Rasainiai         Jewish children                       843
             Georgenburg       all Jews, all Jewesses, all
                               Jewish children                       412
9.9.41       Alytus            287 Jews, 640 Jewesses, 352
                               Jewish children                       1,279
9.9.41       Butrimonys        67 Jews, 370 Jewesses, 303
                               Jewish children                       740
10.9.41      Merkine           223 Jews, 640 Jewesses, 276
                               Jewish children                       854
10.9.41      Varena            541 Jews, 141 Jewesses, 149
                               Jewish children                       831
11.9.41      Leipalingis       60 Jews, 70 Jewesses, 25
                               Jewish children                       155
11.9.41      Seirijai          229 Jews, 384 Jewesses, 340
                               Jewish children                       953
12.9.41      Simnas            68 Jews, 197 Jewesses, 149
                               Jewish children                       414
11-12.9.41   Uzusalis          Reprisal against inhabitants who
                               fed Russ. partisans; some in
                               possession of weapons                  43
26.9.41      Kauen-F.IV        412 Jews, 615 Jewesses, 581
                               Jewish children (sick and
                               suspected epidemic cases)             1,608

                                      Total carries over           66,159


Sheet 5
                                      Total carried over           66,159

2.10.41      Zagare            633 Jews, 1,107 Jewesses, 496
                               Jewish children (as these Jews were
                               being led away a mutiny rose, which
                               was however immediately put down;
                               150 Jews were shot immediately; 7
                               partisans wounded)                    2,236
4.10.41      Kauen-F.IX        315 Jews, 712 Jewesses, 818
                               Jewish children (reprisal after
                               German police officer shot in ghetto) 1,845
29.10.41     Kauen-F.IX        2,007 Jews, 2,920 Jewesses, 4,273
                               Jewish children (mopping up ghetto
                               of superfluous Jews)                  9,200
3.11.41      Lazdijai          485 Jews, 511 Jewesses, 539
                               Jewish children                       1,535
15.11.41     Wilkowiski        36 Jews, 48 Jewesses, 31
                               Jewish children                       115
25.11.41     Kauen-F.IX        1,159 Jews, 1,600 Jewesses, 175
                               Jewish children (resettlers from
                               Berlin, Munich and Frankfurt am main) 2,934
29.11.41     Kauen-F.IX        693 Jews, 1,155 Jewesses, 152
                               Jewish children (resettlers from
                               from Vienna and Breslau)              2,000
29.11.41     Kauen-F.IX        17 Jews, 1 Jewess, for contravention
                               of ghetto law, 1 Reichs German who
                               converted to the Jewish faith and
                               attended rabbinical school, then 15
                               terrorists from the Kalinin group     34

EK 3 detachment in Dunanburg
in the period 13.7-21.8.41:    9,012 Jews, Jewesses and Jewish
                               children, 573 active Comm.            9,585

EK 3 detachment in Wilna:
12.8-1.9.41  City of Wilna     425 Jews, 19 Jewesses, 8 Comm. (m.),
                               9 Comm. (f.)                          461
2.9.41       City of Wilna     864 Jews, 2,019 Jewesses, 817
                               Jewish children (sonderaktion because
                               German soldiers shot at by Jews)      3,700

                                      Total carried forward        99,084


sheet 6

                                      Total carried forward        99,804

12.9.41      City of Wilna     993 Jews, 1,670 Jewesses, 771
                               Jewish children                       3,334
17.9.41      City of Wilna     337 Jews, 687 Jewesses, 247
                               Jewish children and 4 Lith. Comm.     1,271
20.9.41      Nemencing         128 Jews, 176 Jewesses, 99
                               Jewish children                       403
22.9.41      Novo-Wilejka      468 Jews, 495 Jewesses, 196
                               Jewish children                       1,159
24.9.41      Riess             512 Jews, 744 Jewesses, 511
                               Jewish children                       1,767
25.9.41      Jahiunai          215 Jews, 229 Jewesses, 131
                               Jewish children                       575
27.9.41      Eysisky           989 Jews, 1,636 Jewesses, 821
                               Jewish children                       3,446
30.9.41      Trakai            366 Jews, 483 Jewesses, 597
                               Jewish children                       1,446
4.10.41      City of Wilna     432 Jews, 1,115 Jewesses, 436
                               Jewish children                       1,983
6.10.41      Semiliski         213 Jews, 359 Jewesses, 390
                               Jewish children                       962
9.10.41      Svenciany         1,169 Jews, 1,840 Jewesses, 717
                               Jewish children                       3,726
16.10.41     City of Wilna     382 Jews, 507 Jewesses, 257
                               Jewish children                       1,146
21.10.41     City of Wilna     718 Jews, 1,063 Jewesses, 586
                               Jewish children                       2,367
25.10.41     City of Wilna     1,776 Jewesses, 812 Jewish children   2,578
27.10.41     City of Wilna     946 Jews, 184 Jewesses, 73
                               Jewish children                       1,203
30.10.41     City of Wilna     382 Jews, 789 Jewesses, 362
                               Jewish children                       1,553
6.11.41      City of Wilna     340 Jews, 749 Jewesses, 252
                               Jewish children                       1,341
19.11.41     City of Wilna     76 Jews, 77 Jewesses, 18
                               Jewish children                       171
19.11.41     City of Wilna     6 POW's, 8 Poles                      14
20.11.41     City of Wilna     3 POW's                               3
25.11.41     City of Wilna     9 Jews, 46 Jewesses, 8 Jewish
                               children, 1 Pole for possession of arms
                               and other military equipment          64

EK 3 detachment in Minsk from
28.9-17.10.41:

             Pleschnitza       620 Jews, 1,285 Jewesses,
             Bischolin         1,126 Jewish children and 19
             Scak              Comm.
             Bober
             Uzda                                                    3,050
                                                                     --------
                                                                     133,346
Prior to EK 3 taking over security police duties, Jews liquidated
by pogroms and executions (including partisans)                      4,000
                                                                  -----------
                                                             Total 137,346


Today I can confirm that our objective, to solve the Jewish problem for
Lithuania, has been achieved by EK 3. In Lithuania there are no more
Jews, apart from Jewish workers and their families.

 .
 .
 .

The distance between from the assembly point to the graves was on average
4 to 5 Km.

 .
 .
 .

I consider the Jewish action more or less terminated as far as
Einsatzkommando 3 is concerned. Those working Jews and Jewesses still
available are needed urgently and I can envisage that after the winter
this workforce will be required even more urgently. I am of the view
that the sterilization program of the male worker Jews should be
started immediately so that reproduction is prevented. If despite
sterilization a Jewess becomes pregnant she will be liquidated.

 .
 .
 .

(signed) Jager
SS-Standartenfuehrer





Article 18828 of alt.revisionism:
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
From: staff@rabbit.augs.se (Staffan Friberg)
Subject: Re: Michael Hoffman Grows Himself an Even Longer Nose
References:     <39rkb1$ce@prime.mdata.fi>
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In article <39rkb1$ce@prime.mdata.fi> kauhunen@mits.mdata.fi (Kari Nenonen) writes:

> In article ,
> Staffan Friberg  wrote:

> >And, while you're at it, Mr McGuire, could you also explain why you called me
> >a marxist as well? I'm appearently only a marxist and not a marxist zionist
> >but I guess that'll have to do.
> >
> >(Jonas, kan du inte ge negra lektioner?)

> Tar det lungt, Staffan. F|r Mr McGuire allt som kan r|ra till v{nster {r
> marxist. Och allt some kan r|ra till v{nster och har ett Jude namn, {r
> marxist zionist. 

Ja, det dr nog sant, tyvdrr, fer man vdl sdga. :(

Jag har inga fvrhoppningar om ett svar och jag tror inte att Jonas kommer
att fe det heller. Med lite tur se kan vi vdl i alla fall irritera herr
McGuire genom att skriva hans namn i en text han troligen inte kan fvrste. ;)

-- 

                                                            //
                                                           //
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ \\ //  AMIGA +++
+ Staffan Friberg                   +  EMail:           \X/           +
+ Undergraduate student  Chemistry  +                                 +
+ Linkvping University              +  InterNet: staff@rabbit.augs.se +
+ Sweden                            +  FidoNet:  2:204/404.2  or      +
+                                   +            2:204/418.9          +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Don't laugh - this is science"
                     (James Randi)

Article 18839 of alt.revisionism:
Xref: oneb alt.revisionism:18839 alt.usenet.kooks:9806
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Hoffman's back!
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Followup-To: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks
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Brian Trosko (btrosko@primenet.com) wrote:

: Joy happy joy. Mike Hoffman's back from celebrating Guy Fawkes day! Hey, 
: Mikey, you're not planning on blowing up the Justice department anytime 
: soon, are you?

Spell it "justice", with a small "j".  Fifteen years of OSI terror.  And 
let us not forget Waco.

                       Ross Vicksell


Article 18872 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Hoffman's back!
In-Reply-To: codfish@netcom.com's message of Fri, 11 Nov 1994 00:15:42 GMT
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
>Spell it "justice", with a small "j".  Fifteen years of OSI terror.  And 
>let us not forget Waco.

Well, go tell McGuire about Waco, he's the one who's insisted here,
repeatedly, that there exists no instance of Christians condoning the
killing of Christians. Maybe he thinks Janet Reno is a bhuddist...


-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 18877 of alt.revisionism:
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From: kauhunen@mits.mdata.fi (Kari Nenonen)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Michael Hoffman Grows Himself an Even Longer Nose
Date: 11 Nov 1994 23:17:38 GMT
Organization: Mits BBS, Helsinki, Finland (40+ Nodes +358-0-4582066)
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In article ,
Staffan Friberg  wrote:

>> Tar det lungt, Staffan. F|r Mr McGuire allt som kan r|ra till v{nster {r
>> marxist. Och allt some kan r|ra till v{nster och har ett Jude namn, {r
>> marxist zionist. 
>
>Ja, det dr nog sant, tyvdrr, fer man vdl sdga. :(
>
>Jag har inga fvrhoppningar om ett svar och jag tror inte att Jonas kommer
>att fe det heller. Med lite tur se kan vi vdl i alla fall irritera herr
>McGuire genom att skriva hans namn i en text han troligen inte kan fvrste. ;)

Jo, n} det var min mening ocks} n{r jag skrev p} svenska. ;)


.
.
>                                                            //
>                                                           //
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ \\ //  AMIGA +++
>+ Staffan Friberg                   +  EMail:           \X/           +
>+ Undergraduate student  Chemistry  +                                 +
>+ Linkvping University              +  InterNet: staff@rabbit.augs.se +
>+ Sweden                            +  FidoNet:  2:204/404.2  or      +
>+                                   +            2:204/418.9          +
>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>"Don't laugh - this is science"
>                     (James Randi)

.

.
.
-- 
Kari Nenonen   - kauhunen@mits.mdata.fi          - Skepsis r.y.
Maavallintie 4 - Tel: 358-0-5636625              - Helsingin Scifiseura
00430 Helsinki - The Finnish Dramatists' Society - Wan.Her.Tiet.Kirj.N.H
Finland        - The Writers' Union of Finland   - The International J.C.


Article 18883 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Speaking of Segev
Date: 12 Nov 1994 00:09:26 GMT
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Michael P. Stein  wrote:

#     Oh, thank you, Wayne; that reminds me - do you remember when you
# posted a long excerpt from Segev on the soap issue?  I wrote a lengthy
# response and posted it, showing that there were *two* soap stories, the
# RIF rumor which Segev rightfully dismisses and the Mazur experiment at
# Stutthof which Segev doesn't appear to address.  Did you have any comment
# to make, either to agree or disagree?  If you did, I missed it. 

As a matter of fact, Segev did write that the Nazis conducted
experiments in manufacturing soap from human fat.


-Danny Keren.



Article 18899 of alt.revisionism:
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From: golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 22:43:07 -0600
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In article , hoffman2nd@delphi.com wrote:

> The only Golux in the World, and not a m  writes:
>  
> >What makes you think Americans in general give a rat's ass about the
> >massacre of Muslims in the Middle East by a crazy Jew with an automatic
>  
> I think they might--since they are paying for it with their taxes--if it
> were publicized consistently in films and TV documentaries.
>  
> Your reference to mass murderer Goldstein as >>crazy<< is baloney. Whenever
> Khazars massacre people they are >>crazy.<< When Arabs do it, they are
> >>terrorists.<<

In fact, the terms "terrorist" and "crazy" are not mutually exclusive.  My
personal opinion is that anybody who is fanatical enough to commit an act
of terrorism is crazy.  Is there any question that Goldstein committed an
act of terrorism?  Has anyone denied it?  No to both.  However, there is
also no question that Goldstein was a lunatic.  (And those who say he did
a wonderful thing are equally lunatic.)

> Goldstein was a member of both Kahanes Kach movement and according to Israel
> Shahak, the Lubavitch movement. Both of those groups are virulently racist
> and what Goldstein did was seamlessly in line with those philosophies. He
> committed a calculated act of terrorism. Why are you so reticent to call
> it what it is?

Why are you so reticent to admit that his act of terrorism -- while it was
that, and while he indeed must have calculated it -- was the act of a
solitary lunatic, and not dictated by the Israeli government or the
teachings of Judaism?  I have my suspicions why you need to create false
opposites ("crazy" vs. "terrorist").  Why don't you tell us?

(And while I agree that Kahane was, and Kach therefore is, "virulently
racist," at least with regard to Arabs, I question your characterization
of the Lubavitchers as such.  I haven't seen any evidence of it.)

-- 
D. J. Schaeffer |       The Todal looks like a blob of glup.
golux@mcs.com   |     It makes a sound like rabbits screaming,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^        and smells of old, unopened rooms.
                            -- Thurber, _The 13 Clocks_


Article 18900 of alt.revisionism:
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From: golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 22:53:03 -0600
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In article , wmcguire@world.std.com
(Wayne McGuire) wrote:

> I take it you don't want to dispute the fact that Jews are vastly
> overrepresented at the highest levels of the movie industry, and
> that all other ethnic and religious groups are vastly
> underrepresented.

"Overrepresented" can have two meanings.  It can mean, objectively, that
the percentage of Jews in the movie industry is out of proportion to the
percentage of Jews in American population.  It can also mean,
subjectively, that the number of Jews in the movie industry is out of
proportion to their value, either to the movie industry or as human beings
period. The former implies no moral judgment, the latter can imply varying
degrees of moral judgment.  Which do you mean?  And what do you mean by
"vastly"?

And as I have pointed out before, there is an excellent study of Jews in
Hollywood entitled "An Empire Of Their Own."  (I think the subtitle may be
"How The Jews Invented Hollywood.")

> Now, when this was the case in the American banking and financial
> industries--that is, when those industries were thoroughly
> dominated by WASPs (as they once were)--there were heard many
> angry complaints about anti-Semitism in those industries, and
> charges that they were nothing but an insular WASP country club.
> How different is the response when the situation is reversed in
> another industry, and one at least as strategic in its overall
> influence and impact as the banking and financial industries.
> Then one can run into no end of ingenious apologetics for what is
> clearly a discriminatory system.

In what way does the Jewish presence in the movie industry discriminate
against non-Jews?  Are non-Jews prevented from becoming multimillionaire
movie stars?  Are they prevented from becoming executives in movie
companies?  Which positions of influence are denied to non-Jews?  Which
exclusive clubs, where the big deals are made, are Jews-only?  (You want
to draw the analogy to the mostly dismantled WASP lock on the finance
world, you got to show how it's analogous.)

Post/email

-- 
D. J. Schaeffer |       The Todal looks like a blob of glup.
golux@mcs.com   |     It makes a sound like rabbits screaming,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^        and smells of old, unopened rooms.
                            -- Thurber, _The 13 Clocks_


Article 18917 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: "Revisionist" Nonsense (Was: Re: Victims of the Thou
Date: 11 Nov 1994 06:41:33 GMT
Organization: Brown University
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Message-ID: <39v3mt$d3k@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References: 
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It's quite surprising to see that Hoffman is still supporting the
line of argument which concludes that, because there are less
cyanide traces in the remains of the Auschwitz gas chambers than
in the delousing chambers, it follows that no mass gassing took
place in them (as he states regarding Germar Rudolph).

This shows once again that no matter how many times the
"revisionist" claims are refuted, they are simply repeated
again and again and again. That doesn't say much for the
intellectual capabilities of our "revisionist scholars".

We have been through this many times. It is very well-known that
delousing requires higher concentration of cyanide gas and,
moreover, the exposure time necessary for delousing is far
higher than that necessary for homicidal gassing. Delousing
requires many hours, homicidal gassing with HCN (cyanide gas)
15-20 minutes or less. The gas is extremely lethal to humans
and that is why cyanide gas is still used today in US execution
gas chambers.

Also, most of the gas chambers were dynamited, hence their walls
were exposed for forty years to the elements (the samples 
Hoffman mentions were taken in the 1980's or later). It is
well-known that this exposure reduces the amount of 
remaining cyanide compounds. This was summarized by the experts of 
the Cracow Institute of Forensic Research:



        INSTITUTE OF FORENSIC RESEARCH
        In the name of Prof. Dr. Jan Sehn, Krakow
        Division of Forensic Toxicology
 
                                Krakow, 24 Sept. 1990
                                Westerplatte 9 / Code 31-033
                                Tel. 505-44, 592-24, 287-50
                                Telex 0325213 eksad ...
 
      The hydrocyanic acid (HCN) that is released from the Zyklon B
      preparation is a liquid with a boiling point of about 27 degrees
      Celsius.  It has an acidic character, and therefore forms
      compounds with metallic salts, which are known as cyanides.  The
      salts of alkaline metals (such as sodium and potassium) are
      water soluble.
 
      Hydrocyanic acid is a very weak acid, and accordingly its salts
      dissolve easily in stronger acids.  Even carbonic acid, which is
      formed as a reaction of carbon dioxide with water, will dissolve
      ferro-cyanide.
 
      Stronger acids, such as sulfuric acids, easily dissolve the
      cyanides.  The compounds of cyanide ions with heavy metals are
      longer lasting.  This includes the already mentioned Prussian
      blue, although this will also slowly dissolve in an acidic
      environment.
 
      Therefore, one can hardly assume that traces of cyanic compounds
      could still be detected in construction materials (plaster,
      brick) after 45 years, after being subjected to the weather and
      the elements (rain, acid oxides, especially sulfuric and
      nitrogen oxides).  More reliable would be the analysis of wall
      plaster [samples] from closed rooms which were not subject to
      weather and the elements (including acid rain).
 
      The discovery of hydrocyanic acid compounds in samples of
      material which had been subject to the elements can only be
      accidental.



It is obvious that the claims of Holocaust deniers concerning the amount
of cyanide compounds are pure nonsense, just like the "diesel fumes
can't kill" nonsense.


-Danny Keren.



Article 18954 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Victims of the Thought Police
Date: 12 Nov 1994 22:43:21 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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In article ,   wrote:
>Scripture encourages us to speak the truth fearlessly (John 8:32; Luke 
>8:17; John 18:37 and Titus 1:13-14).

    Just out of curiosty, do you have any plans to follow that excellent
advice, or are you going to keep on lying as I proved you did about your
reason for saying my Hebrew was not so great? 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 9850 of alt.usenet.kooks:
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From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: More from McGuire (was Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented)
Date: 11 Nov 1994 01:34:56 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 90
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    In the spirit of our recent election day, Mr. McGuire helpfully 
provides more campaign literature in his unwitting quest for the office 
of November KOTM.

[Note: Wayne's quoting style is a bit odd - the unattributed Paul Newman
comment is Wayne's.  Newman's Judaism came as a complete shock to me.  I
am not 100% sure, but I suspect it may come as a complete shock to Mr. 
Newman as well - does anyone know for sure?]

In article ,
Wayne McGuire  wrote:
>In article ,
>k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>
>//> I've seen Paul
>//> Newman, a Jew, give a terrific performance as an Irishman.
>//
>//Yah, and I've seen Emma Thompson do a fantastic job impersonating
>//an American.  That "acting" stuff is amazing, isn't it?
>
>Ho, hum: what an inane comeback. Your comments about Hollywood
>and film don't appear to be any more interesting, informative or
>(above all) creative than your remarks about Arno Mayer. Like Ken
>McVay you have a tendency to sink into a robotlike and uninspired
>recitation of cliches about whatever subject comes under your
>earnest gaze. You are way over your head on the subject of movies
>and the media, obviously.
>
>I take it you don't want to dispute the fact that Jews are vastly
>overrepresented at the highest levels of the movie industry, and
>that all other ethnic and religious groups are vastly
>underrepresented.
>
>Now, when this was the case in the American banking and financial
>industries--that is, when those industries were thoroughly
>dominated by WASPs (as they once were)--there were heard many
>angry complaints about anti-Semitism in those industries, and
>charges that they were nothing but an insular WASP country club.
>How different is the response when the situation is reversed in
>another industry, and one at least as strategic in its overall
>influence and impact as the banking and financial industries.
>Then one can run into no end of ingenious apologetics for what is
>clearly a discriminatory system.
>
>I thought you wanted to debate Mayer. I'm game. Perhaps you could
>respond to the post I put up yesterday with the subject heading
>"Arno Mayer." Please demonstrate in a factual and rational way
>what is not kosher about that particular Mayer passage. Then
>please list the specific passages with precise page numbers in
>Mayer you are prepared to critique in debate with me, and we will
>have at it.
>
>Also please post your reading notes for Mayer here, if you don't
>mind. I'll be happy to post mine if you want them.
>
>In another post I think you described my views on the Middle East
>as "occluded" (I confess I was skimming the messagebase at
>lightning speed when the word caught my eye). The correct term,
>Jamie, is "knowledgeable": I am quite knowledgeable about Mideast
>politics. Anytime you want to meet me in a formal debate on ANY
>aspect of Mideast politics--you pick the subject--I am your
>humble servant.
>
>Mideast politics is a much more vital and rich subject than the
>Holocaust, and certainly much more relevant to what is going on
>in the real world today. Israel and the Holocaust are profoundly
>intertwined in many ways: read, for instance, Tom Segev's The
>Seventh Million, which is one the finest books on both Israel and
>the Holocaust published during recent years.
>
>I will challenge you to a formal debate on a Holocaust-related
>topic right now. Assertion: Marxist Holocaust denial has been
>practiced in a more systematic way among more influential
>institutions than Nazi Holocaust denial. I've just come across
>new information on this subject from a number of sources that has
>convinced me that you are dead wrong when you deny this is the
>case. I am so confident that you are dead wrong, in fact, that I
>hereby challenge you to a formal debate on the issue. I frankly
>don't give a damn who the moderator is; the facts will stand up
>by themselves regardless. The history of much of the Western
>intelligentsia in dealing with Marxist crimes all through the
>century, and well into the present, is a scandal that makes the
>"revisionist" phenomenon look trivial indeed.
>
>Why don't you present me with a list of the Hollywood movies in
>which the mass murder angle on Marxism has been explored in depth.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 18979 of alt.revisionism:
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From: "Jeffrey G. Brown" 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hoffman claims he knows Hebrew, it's his English that sucks
Date: 13 Nov 1994 18:30:36 GMT
Organization: Internet Access Cincinnati 513-887-8877
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> What a puddle of Talmudic puke. And now Stein reveals his sodomite
> inclinations while claiming to be a true Hebrew.
>  
> --Michael A. Hoffman II

Ah, there's a scholarly response if ever there was one. Hoffman's Nazi pals must be proud of them. Look how carefully he took each and every one of Michael Stein's points and refuted them with rock-solid logic. 

Nothing like real revisionist "scholarship" and "research", is there?

JGB


Article 19036 of alt.revisionism:
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From: lnyman@info.census.gov (Lisa Nyman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Victims of the Thought Police
Date: 14 Nov 1994 08:03:11 -0500
Organization: US Census Bureau
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In article ,   wrote:
> 
>All books by the childrens author Roald Dahl have been banned from a Toronto
>bookstore. The store, which is called >>The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe<<
>has banned Dahl books due to the late authors statement that the Israelis
>slaughtered 22,000 Lebanese civilians during the Israeli air force bombardment
>of Beirut in 1982. (Bookstore Bans Works of Anti-Semitic Author, Canadian Jewish

I hate to be the one to tell you this, but a store can sell whatever it
wants and the Joos have nothing to do with it.
Does your Puffin House sell books by Elie Weisel?
Does Blockbuster sell porn? 


-- 
Lisa W. Nyman   301-763-6005   | Back by popular demand: |
--------------------------------------------------|-------------------------|
SF-19902.95-xy7/23(g) Standard Disclaimer on file |    Life's too short to  |
in the Central Office. I speak for me, Not U.S.   |   wear ugly underwear.  |


Article 19045 of alt.revisionism:
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From: flax@aristotle.algonet.se (Jonas Flygare)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Michael Stein and Baruch Goldstein
Date: 15 Nov 1994 16:40:00 GMT
Organization: AlgoNet Public Access Node, Stockholm
Lines: 36
Message-ID: 
References: <7kEnk0yNUU60073yn@world.std.com> <3a45gu$4m4@access1.digex.net>
	
NNTP-Posting-Host: aristotle.algonet.se
In-reply-to: hoffman2nd@delphi.com's message of Tue, 15 Nov 94 06:01:23 -0500

In article  hoffman2nd@delphi.com writes:

>Michael P. Stein  writes:

:>> I am not aware of any Holocaust "cult."  I know that some fundraisers
:>yank the Holocaust chain shamelessly just as other fundraisers yank the
:>Social Security chain shamelessly.  Would you say there is a Social
:>Security "cult?" 

:Oh sure, Stein, there's this "Social Security Cult" see and they've got
:500 movies playing on television, a museum in California and the nation's
:capital, a national "Yam HaShoaSecurity" Day and you get arrested in
:Canada, Germany, France and Sweden if you deny it.
:This is the dimension one must confront in debating Mr. Stein: when he is
:cornered, when the truth can only be uttered, he responds solely by means
:of an absurdity presented with a straight face just in order to get himself
:off the hook. That's not debate it's propaganda and damage control.
:Stein's not aware of a "Holocaust" cult. For his information, Baruch Goldstein
:went around wearing the "yellow star" of the Hitler era Nuremberg i.d.
:Goldstein was obsessed and part of his obsession was the "Holocaust." He
:and his cronies refer to the semitic Palestinians as "Nazis."
:Not aware of a "Holocaust" cult, Mr. Stein? You might as well say you're
:not aware of the sunrise. Our public school kids are aware of it. They're
:immersed with every month. My public library is aware of it. The shelves
:are teeming with the gassing tomes. Mr. Stein can't admit an enormous truth,
:he can only play the Talmudic game of weaseling out of overwhelming facts

Sweden? Care to substantiate? ... Whoa! I get it! The above post is a
FORGERY! LOOK! Not ONE WORD in >>BRACKETS<  
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1994Nov17.212852.809@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 94 21:28:52 GMT

In article  flax@aristotle.algonet.se (Jonas Flygare) writes:

>In article  hoffman2nd@delphi.com writes:

>:Oh sure, Stein, there's this "Social Security Cult" see and they've got
>:500 movies playing on television, a museum in California and the nation's
>:capital, a national "Yam HaShoaSecurity" Day and you get arrested in
>:Canada, Germany, France and Sweden if you deny it.

Mr. Hoffman, never one to let facts stand in his way, once again
shows his complete lack of ignorance with regard to Canadian law.
Those who, unlike Mr. Hoffman and Mr. McGuire, _are_ interested in
factual, legal reality, are invited to peruse the archives here.

With very little effort, they will find the Supreme Court of Canada
decision regarding Mr. Keegstra, and the SCC decision with regard to
Ernst Zu"ndel. Mr. Keegstra's decision may be obtained by sending
the following command to listserv@oneb.almanac.bc.ca:

get fascism/canada/alberta keegstra.scc.1 
get fascism/canada/alberta keegstra.scc.2 
get fascism/canada/alberta keegstra.scc.3 
get fascism/canada/alberta keegstra.scc.4 

For Zu"ndel, include:

get holocaust/canada zundel.sccj

I might also add that I know of no Canadian law which makes denial
of the Holocaust an offense. The Zundel case dealt with the
demolition of the "publishing false news" matter as well. 

In short, Mr. Hoffman is a liar.

>Sweden? Care to substantiate? ... Whoa! I get it! The above post is a
>FORGERY! LOOK! Not ONE WORD in >>BRACKETS<vile impostor! He's just trying to make Hoffman look smart!

Failed at it, too.


-- 
  "Everything I do is done with the full knowledge of the Fuehrer." 
  (Himmler, Heinrich.  See Jochen von Lang, "Der Adjutant: Karl Wolff,"
                Munich: Herbig, 1985, pp .  140ff)


Article 19062 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Baruch Goldstein and the Holocaust "cult"
Supersedes: <3aajlv$mek@access4.digex.net>
Date: 15 Nov 1994 11:34:36 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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In article ,   wrote:
>This is the dimension one must confront in debating Mr. Stein: when he is
>cornered, when the truth can only be uttered, he responds solely by means
>of an absurdity presented with a straight face just in order to get himself
>off the hook.

    No.  When I'm confronted with frenzied, overblown, hysterical 
rhetoric I puncture it by means of an absurdity presented with a straight 
face, just in order to show how ridiculous the rhetoric is.

    To address the substantive part of your post, the right-wing settlers
wearing yellow stars are not, in my view, engaging in a Holocaust "cult." 
Rather, they are using a *metaphor* (frenzied and hysterical and
overblown, yes) to express a political viewpoint.  Their motivation is not
to keep reminding everyone of the Holocaust - did they wear those stars
before there was any talk of dismantling the settlements? - but to make
the (again, frenzied and overblown) political claim that to resettle them
is tantamount to the SS version of "resettlement."

    Such hysterical hyperbole is hardly the exclusive province of West
Bank Jews, however.  Read the junk mail from the NRA, the anti-abortion
crowd, the anti-Clinton-health-care crowd, and the Social Security "cult"
(where a proposal to subject millionaire coupon-clippers to tax on their
Social Security earnings is equivalent to depriving starving old folks of
their hard-earned benefits).  I find *all* of that dishonest and
disgusting.  Yet I still don't truly think there's a Social Security
"cult."  That's where I'm coming from on my previous comment.  (Even
though I *do* support the right to bear arms without owning a single
firearm of my own, I am forced to confess that a gun "cult" you might be
able to make a case for.... :) )
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.

Article 19073 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mccarthy@garnet.msen.com (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
Date: 7 Nov 1994 12:11:41 -0500
Organization: Msen, Inc. -- Ann Arbor, MI (account info: +1 313 998-4562)
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Sender: mccarthy@garnet.msen.com
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Kari Nenonen  wrote:
>
>In "Carlito's Way" there is that very stereotyped and very disgusting
>Jewish character - Carlito's lawer.

Yeah, played very well by Art Garfunkel, as I recall.  The character
was so similar to Alan Dershowitz that a suit was threatened, as I
recall.  Anyone know if he followed through on that?

And Dershowitz was the lawyer who defended the KKK's right to march in
a predominantly Jewish county of Illinois (Skokie?).

So, let's see.  We have the Jewish Hollywood media using their Jewish
freedom of speech to use a Jewish (?) actor to portray a caricature of
a Jewish lawyer as a nasty evil person.  But the real Jewish lawyer
defended the freedom of speech of an anti-Jewish group to march in a
Jewish part of town.

Take your pick:

(1)  The evil Jewish movie conspirators wanted to get back at Dershowitz
the KKK-loving turncoat, so they made him look bad;

(2)  The evil Jew Garfunkel actually patterened his character after an
unknown Aryan lawyer, but it backfired onto Dershowitz;

(3)  The evil Jew Garfunkel tried to make his character a nice guy,
but, being an evil Jew, his evil Jewishness seeped into the character
anyway, transforming him into a nasty villain;

(4)  An evil Jew put an anti-Jewish character into the film to make
people think the media really _wasn't_ controlled by Jews, when
actually it is (reverse psychology);

or (5) someone made a movie with interesting characters, some of which
were Jewish, some of which weren't, some of which were nasty, some of
which weren't.

Heh.

A few words from Dershowitz himself might be apropos:

Alan Dershowitz on debates:  Washington Times, 2/14/92

   Despite the incontrovertible evidence of the Holocaust--the Nazis
   themselves documented many of the killings--there are cruel bigots
   who are trying to convince naive people that the Holocaust is a
   "myth" perpetuated by Jews "promulagating anti-German hate
   propaganda" -- Bradley Smith and his ilk have been trying to turn
   an incontestable historical fact into a "debatable issue."

   The Holocaust-deniers realize that they cannot win the debate during
   this century.  They envision a two-step process; the first is to
   make the truth of the Holocaust a debateable issue; the second is
   to win the debate in the next century; when the victims and
   perpetrators of the Holocaust are all dead.

   As part of this process, Mr. Smith has tried to buy full-page
   advertisements in college newspapers.  These ads call for "open
   debate" on whether the Holocaust occured.  Invoking currently
   voguish language about "campus thought police," and "political
   correctness," Mr. Smith say students should be "encouraged to
   investigate the Holocaust story the way they are encourated to
   investigate every other historical event.

   I agree with that formulation.  The Holocaust should be studied in
   the same way that "every other historical event" is studied. 
   american slavery is studied, but no one "debates" whether there
   were slaves, because that is not a debateable issue.  The detention
   of Japanese Americans during WWII is studied, but there is no
   debate about whether this historical event occured, because it is
   not debateable. Who killed Kennedy is debatable, but not whether
   Kennedy is still alive, as some tabloids have claimed.  The
   occurrence or non-occurrence of a universally accepted historical
   event does not become a legitimate issue for academic debate just
   because some crackpot says it is debateable.  An initial burden of
   persuasion must be satisfied before a ludicrious "idea" is given
   the imprimatur of reasonable debatibility. Holocaust denial has not
   come close to meeting the preliminary burden.

   ...

   Recently, Mr. Smith invited me to debate whether the Holocaust
   occurred. He knows he cannot win, but he would like to be able to
   say that Alan Dershowitz regards the issue as worthy of debate.  I
   have written him that I will debate the Holocaust, but only as part
   of a series on the following subjects:  (1) that slavery did not
   exist in america, (2) that Elvis Presley is still alive and (3)
   that the Earth is flat.  That is the company of crackpot "ideas"
   into which Holocaust denial comfortably fits.
-- 
 Jamie R. McCarthy                         Director of Programming
 mccarthy@lpi.com (preferred)              Lawrence Productions Inc.
 j.mccarthy@applelink.apple.com            I speak only for myself.


Article 19076 of alt.revisionism:
Xref: oneb alt.revisionism:19076 alt.religion.christian:3827 alt.christnet:4473
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.religion.christian,alt.christnet
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From: rsavage@netcom.com (Rick Savage)
Subject: Re: Khazars: the self-styled "Jews"
Message-ID: 
Followup-To: alt.revisionism,alt.religion.christian,alt.christnet
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:   
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 16:29:37 GMT
Lines: 186

Barry Shein (bzs@world.std.com) wrote:

: >    Absolutely.  The Indians claimed less than 3% of the land legally.  
: >The white europeans played by the Indians own rules.  The indians were 
: >killing each other off for decades before the whites came.  The whites 
: >just played their own game, but were more effective at it.

: Right you dumb fucking piece of shit. WHEN IT COMES TO YOU AND YOURS
: MIGHT MAKES FUCKING RIGHT!
: But when you decide to judge Jews all of a sudden this bullshit about
: international law and reparations comes drooling out of your twisted
: little brain.
: WHO IN THE FUCK DO YOU THINK YOU ARE KIDDING YOU DUMB HYPOCRITE? JUST
: WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE KIDDING?

     Here you go again, typiclly flying off at the mouth before 
understanding what is being presented.  Is your tirade all played out 
now?  Can we now look at what I was actually saying?  Good.  Here we go:

From:  ftp.netcom.com /pub/SFA
----------------------------------------
 
INDIANS AND THE WHITE MAN
 
     What about the Indians?  Weren't they here first?  Didn't we 
(the white race) take this land away from the Indian?  Doesn't the 
Indian have the rightful title to America?
     Since we are dealing with a conflict between two nations or 
races, the white race and the Indian race, we need to turn to the 
Law of Nations or International Law for the solution.  The 
following are some basic maxims of the International Law:
     FIRST: That every nation possesses an exclusive sovereignty 
and jurisdiction in its own territory.
     SECOND:  That no state or nation can by its law directly affect 
or bind property that lies outside of its own territory, or persons 
not resident therein.
     THIRD:  That whatever force the laws of one country have in 
another depends solely on the municipal laws of the latter.
     -"Harper's Encyclopedia of United States History."  Harper & 
Brothers Publishers, Vol. V, 1901 (International Law)
 
     The first principal listed here would seem to suggest that all of 
America was the possession of the Indians prior to the age of 
discovery by  the white race.  However, the Indians never laid 
claim to all of America because they had no understanding of its 
size or boundaries.  The Indian only claimed the land he was 
inhabiting and that which he used for hunting, burial, etc.  At the 
time of discovery (circa 1500 A.D.), the American Indian 
numbered about 700,000 inhabitants, sparsely scattered over what 
is now America.  Thus the Indians never had a legal claim to much 
more than 3% of the land at any one time.  So it can be said that 
the Indians did have a legal claim to America, 3% of it, which was 
considered their "own territory."
     In light of this, it can not be said that the white race violated 
the second principal of International Law either, since 97% of 
America was not legally the "property" of anyone.  When America 
was claimed by the English, French, and Spanish, they claimed the 
entire breadth and width of the land, from sea to sea, from one 
boundary to the next.  They did not just claim the plot of land they 
were inhabiting.  However, the lands that the Indians occupied 
within these European claims were still Indian land.
     It is sometimes argued, however, that the white man encroached 
upon and took possession of lands that were legally claimed by 
the Indian.  It is indeed true that the white man now possesses 
lands which were once legally Indian land.  However, it cannot 
necessarily be concluded that all the lands were illegally taken 
because we know that some of these land rights were sold to the 
white man.  The third maxim of International Law says we have to 
look at the Indian's law, and that whatever measures or acts the 
white man makes in regards to Indian land must be pursuant to 
Indian law.  AT this point then we need to look at some laws that 
were held by the Indians:
     1.  It was a law common among Indians that the stronger of 
two tribes or people (nations) has the right to conquer and subdue 
the weaker.
     2.  Under Indian common law it was understood that land 
claims existed by inhabiting the land and by any use of the land.
     3.  When any land was unoccupied or not used for one year, 
the land was free for anyone to claim and settle.
 
     This first law of the Indians could actually render all other 
arguments of land rights academic.  This law was almost a way of 
life with the Indian, which is why they were always warring among 
themselves, and perhaps why they were so few in number.  The 
wars and conflicts between the white race and the Indian race 
throughout history are numerous, and the fact that the white race 
was the stronger cannot be doubted.
     According to the third Indian law listed, the white man, or any 
man or nation, had the right to possess the vast lands that were 
uninhabited or unclaimed by the Indian in America.  Since the 
Indians never claimed the American continent from Atlantic to 
Pacific, the lands claimed by right of discovery are valid.  Thus, 
the only legal conflict that can exist lies with the 3% of the land 
the Indian had a legal claim to in America, in accordance to the 
second Indian law listed.
     In spite of the legal right the white race has to America, we 
often are confronted with the anti-American propaganda that the 
white race wronged the Indian by attacking and killing them and 
driving them out of their land.  We thus need to look at the first 
colonial settlers.  A summary of these first conflicts show that 
they were always initiated by Indians:

(The following excerpts were used from these history sources:  
(Edward Eggleston, "A History Of The United States And Its 
People," 1888.
(Gertrude Southworth, "A First Book In American History," 
1919.
(Hezekiah Butterworth, "The Story of America," 1898.
(John Bassett, Ph.D., "A Short History of The United States: 
1492-1929," 1933.)
 
 - Shortly after the first colony was established at Jamestown in 
1607, the settlers were attacked by Indians, who wounded 
seventeen men and killed one boy.
 - After the above conflict, peaceful relations prevailed, due to the 
wise police of Captain John Smith and the good will of Powhatan, 
head chief of the Indian Confederacy.  When Powhatan died in 
1618, his brother Opechancanough, who disliked the English, 
began to plot war.  In March 1622, the Indian tribes wen ton the 
warpath, and swept though a line of settlements marked by a trail 
of blood.  In the white settlements, nearly 400 men, women and 
children, were cruelly put to death before the ravages of the 
Indians could be checked.
 - For 22 years after the massacre of 1622 there was peace.  But 
Opechancanough, at last head chief, only waited for another 
opportunity.  In 1644, there was a civil war in England, and he 
thought the expected moment was at hand.  The massacre he 
waged left over 300 white settlers slain in two days.  Again the 
whites took up arms in defense, and in 1646 the aged chief 
himself was taken and killed - there was never again a general 
uprising in Virginia.
 - In the Plymouth colony, a peace compact was established 
between the Indian chief Massasoit and Governor Carver.  AS 
time went on, the friendly old chief died.  When his son, King 
Philip, came to be ruler of the Wampanoag tribe, trouble began to 
brew for the colonists.  Urged on by his braves, King Philip began 
sending messages to friendly tribes, inviting them to join in a 
mighty war on the "pale faces."  The war that followed was a 
terrible one.  The Indians, avoiding the white troops, dodging 
them, and never meeting them face to face in the open field, carried 
on the contest in their savage way of massacring the helpless, and 
burning villages.  Many a fair and quite settlement was made 
desolate.  Women and children were ruthlessly murdered, and 
burned in the houses.  But by the end of 1675 the force of the 
Indians was broken.
   - In the New Haven colony the situation with the Indians (the 
Pequets) was similar.  At first there were peaceful relationships 
between them and the white settlers.  During 1637, the Pequots 
attempted to organize a confederacy, but unable to secure the help 
of the Narragansetts due to the influence of Roger Williams, they 
took to the warpath alone.  They did not come out in open battle, 
but waylaid a party of whites and killed thirty of them.  In 
response to this, a small party of English, along with some seventy 
friendly Indians, attack the Pequet stronghold, killing over 450 of 
that tribe.  The great Pequet tribe was crushed, and nearly forty 
years of Peace ensued.
 
     History reveals that all the early hostilities and wars between 
the American Indians and the white settlers, were instigated by or 
first carried out by the Indians.  Even though the white settlers had 
legal title to the land by way of purchase or claim of unoccupied 
lands, the Indian was always the one to disrupt peaceful relations 
with attacks, massacres, and wars.  The retaliation by the white 
settlers were merely acts of self defense and self preservation in 
accordance with the law of nature.  Thus it was the Indian who 
was the intruder and violator of land rights.  It was the Indian who, 
in the beginning, wronged the white man.  The Indian's treachery, 
barbaric and warlike manners, and sneak attacks on the colonist 
was positive proof of the anti-social nature of the red man.  This 
exhibit of the Indian's character caused much distrust of the Indian 
continued to live by and uphold in the future.
     Thus, the white race has a rightful and legal claim and title to 
America pursuant to international law, the Indian's law, the law of 
nature, and by a combination thereof.
 
From the book, _America: Free, White, & Christian_, by Charles A. Weisman, 
pgs. 52-56 
 
Available from: 
Scriptures For America, PO Box 766-c, LaPorte CO 80535, 
$8.00 ppd
-- 
 _____________________Rick Savage ______________________
|    Important files on life, liberty and happiness:        Rick Savage     | 
|  Anonymous FTP server:  ftp.netcom.com  - "cd pub/SFA"    PO Box 5251     |
|       Gov't, history, law, Bible, socialissues          Denver, CO 80217  |


Article 19080 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Denmark: Christopherson & extremist networking
Date: 15 Nov 1994 18:31:08 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <3abgbs$ep3@access4.digex.net>
References: <39sdpm$9cg@newsbf01.news.aol.com>   
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article ,
Jamie McCarthy  wrote:
[speaking to Michael Hoffman]
>But, you deliberately deleted a line giving reason why the man in question
>deserves to die -- you deleted it to make your point.
>
>And I think that elision classifies you as a liar, not merely an illiterate.
>What do you think, Mike?

    Sorry, but I'm forced to rule that this is still inconclusive.  If
he's as illiterate as his misreading of the Mittelstaedt and Morgen
affidavits indicate, he may genuinely have been unable to understand that
the line he deleted made a point he had to deal with.  I guess we still
have to wait for Hoffman to choose which label makes him look less bad.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.



Article 19090 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Hoffman's lies
In-Reply-To: hoffman2nd@delphi.com's message of Tue, 15 Nov 94 19:42:35 -0500
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <3ab16qINNhji@langsvr1.summit.novell.com> 
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 03:39:06 GMT
Lines: 43


From: hoffman2nd@delphi.com
> writes:
> 
>>about ignoring his son. Bart chases him to a "Mikvah bath" to ask him
>>to relent, eventually Lisa supplies Bart with Talmudic arguments against
>>estrangement, Crusty's father is hard to convince, but the Simpson kids
>>come up, with all things, with a quote from Sammy Davis Jr. about how
>>Jews have been persecuted so they should hang together, (pretty much
> 
>No "worshipping the Pharisees"? Are you sure about that? I call all this
>holy palaver on one of the most irreverent shows on TV good evidence of
>the kind of "pull" and immunity Judaism has.

Sorry, I'm really starting to lose your point here.

You started out complaining that there's a lot of anti-german stuff in
the media mostly guised in anti-nazi WWII imagery.

I don't disagree with that and think it's a fair point to make, I've
noticed it myself and find much of it getting quite tiresome and
tasteless.

Now your position seems to have mutated to your being angry that
something non-negative was said on the Simpson's cartoon TV show about
Jewish culture which had absolutely no mention of Germans or Nazis or
anything of the sort.

That seems, to me, like a completely different agenda, and a fairly
odious one.

Do you really get furious when you see something positive about jews
or jewish culture in the media?

That seems like a problem.



-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 19091 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Michael Stein and Schindler's List
In-Reply-To: hoffman2nd@delphi.com's message of Tue, 15 Nov 94 19:51:46 -0500
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <$Ekfk0yNUEhG069yn@world.std.com> 
	 
	
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 03:45:08 GMT
Lines: 30


From: hoffman2nd@delphi.com
>Hey, it took place--in Dresden, Hamburg, Pforzheim, Hiroshima and Nagasaki
>only there are no Spielbergs or Sheinbergs or Katzenbergs around to give
>"the example and the memory."--Michael A. Hoffman II

You think Hiroshima/Nagasaki has been forgotten or isn't still a
highly emotionally charged and controversial issue?

What planet do you live on?

And what about Coventry? The Nazis did purposely bomb that cathedral
into oblivion, and that's often cited as the tit-for-tat that was
Dresden. They also were purposely going for Canterbury Cathedral and
Westminster Abbey tho didn't quite do the job they did when they
managed to flatten Coventry Cathedral, but they managed a few good and
well-placed hits. What viciousness was going on by everyone involved!

Does this sort of thing ever end? Or must it go round and round
forever, each side committing their little sins of omission soas not
to distract from their intended propaganda value?

Where was Coventry on your list? Or Warsaw or Prague or Leningrad? Did
we miss it?

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 19092 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Put up or shut up, Mr. Hoffman (v 1.02, Round 2)
In-Reply-To: hoffman2nd@delphi.com's message of Tue, 15 Nov 94 20:03:49 -0500
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <1994Nov15.130004.8751@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> <3aak7p$mue@access4.digex.net>
	
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 03:50:12 GMT
Lines: 31


From: hoffman2nd@delphi.com
>Michael P. Stein  writes:
> 
>>    While you're at it, Mr. Hoffman, could you please produce your 
>>evidence that I'm an anti-German zealot?  Thank you for your attention.
> 
>Sure. That dull, dead, glassy-eyed reaction you exude whenever something
>truly unique in defense of the Germans arises from the documentary record
>to surprise and astonish you. Remember, "New Unhappy Lord"?

Given this brilliant and insightful defense of your accusations may we
now discuss why anyone on this planet thinks Mr Hoffman is anything
other than an idiot?

Idiot seems to fit quite well. Wear the badge proudly, Mr Hoffman.

And do keep complaining about the sinister undertones of Bart Simpson,

I'm sure this will lead you to found some strange and new religion,
The First Church of Anti-Simpsonism or similar. Perhaps Rick Savage,
having recently discovered *his* jew-hating religion is mostly based
upon a spelling error, shall take you up in this new endeavor.

Wotta kettle-o-kooks.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 19096 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: rsavage@netcom.com (Rick Savage)
Subject: Re: Judaism is Not Genetic
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:  <5Y9WrA1.hoffman2nd@delphi.com> <39a2a7$lb9@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>  <39iv67$5av@access1.digex.net>
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 16:49:13 GMT
Lines: 34

Michael P. Stein (mstein@access1.digex.net) wrote:
: In article ,
: Rick Savage  wrote:
: >Danny Keren (dzk@cs.brown.edu) wrote:
: >: Mr. Hoffman truly reveals his own racism by writing this. Being a
: >: Jew has nothing to do with any "blood ties" but with one's
: >: decision to accept Judaism. Genetics has nothing to do with it.
: >
: >     This admission disproves all of Judaism's claims that the "Jews" of 
: >today are "God's Chosen People."  Thanks for the admission.  It also 
: >disclaims their right to the land in Palestine since this was the claim 
: >they used to justify their "right" to it.

:     Of course, Rick Savage argues out of both sides of his mouth.  On
: the one hand, he says that the lack of blood descent invalidates any
: theological claim by a modern Jew to be one of the "chosen people" - that
: one cannot *join* the chosen people by simple conversion.  However, when
: it comes to Identity Christianity, all of a sudden it seems to become
: something you *can* choose, and is not restricted to descendants of
: Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. 

     Go argue with the Judeo-Christians.  They still believe the myth 
that the "Jews" of Judaism are the literal blood descendants of the Jews 
of the Old and New Testaments.  Since you don't believe in this fiction 
then you are perfectly welcom to ridicule it all you want.  I wont object 
at all but probably join you.
     Your second comment is interesting.  I thought "Identity" 
Christianity believed that God does the choosing, not us choosing God.  

-- 
 _____________________Rick Savage ______________________
|    Important files on life, liberty and happiness:        Rick Savage     | 
|  Anonymous FTP server:  ftp.netcom.com  - "cd pub/SFA"    PO Box 5251     |
|       Gov't, history, law, Bible, socialissues          Denver, CO 80217  |


Article 19106 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Michael Stein and Baruch Goldstein
Date: 16 Nov 1994 16:34:00 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <3adc9o$99v@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References: <7kEnk0yNUU60073yn@world.std.com> <3a45gu$4m4@access1.digex.net>  
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

 wrote:
 
# Ditlieb Felderer was jailed for publishing forensic research on Auschwitz
# supportive of the revisionist thesis. This imprisonment was in Sweden.

Isn't Felderer the same rabid nut who wrote about the "anal complex
of the Jews"?

What do you know, another "revisionist scholar" who turns out to be
a filthy racist. So what else is new.

All the "forensic reports" you mention are rubbish, and long
refutations of them have been provided. It was noted, for instance,
that the exposure time (to cyanide gas) necessary to kill people
is far shorter than that necessary for delousing, which explains
why there are less cyanide traces in the remains of the gas chambers
than in the delousing chambers.

Any chance you'll address this, instead of repeating the same old
garbage again and again? It's getting boring.


-Danny Keren.


Article 19110 of alt.revisionism:
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From: gt91rdj@brunel.ac.uk (Ricardo D Joshua)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hoffman's lies
Date: 16 Nov 1994 12:47:48 -0000
Organization: Brunel University, Uxbridge, UK
Lines: 25
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NNTP-Posting-Host: molnir.brunel.ac.uk
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]

hoffman2nd@delphi.com wrote:
:  writes:
:  
: >about ignoring his son. Bart chases him to a "Mikvah bath" to ask him
: >to relent, eventually Lisa supplies Bart with Talmudic arguments against
: >estrangement, Crusty's father is hard to convince, but the Simpson kids
: >come up, with all things, with a quote from Sammy Davis Jr. about how
: >Jews have been persecuted so they should hang together, (pretty much
:  
: No "worshipping the Pharisees"? Are you sure about that? I call all this
: holy palaver on one of the most irreverent shows on TV good evidence of
: the kind of "pull" and immunity Judaism has. It even gets a pious reception
: from Bart Simpson! If your brain is too necrotic to spot this somewhat
: obvious irony that is your problem. A lot of people are so in awe of the
: Khazars that they can't grasp that the Emperor has no clothes. There's
: no cure for stupidity, I guess.--Michael A. Hoffman II

Too damn right! 

Ricky J.

(See the thread "It happens everywhere..." for a further illustration of how
the Holocaust story plays a similar irrelevant part.

I


Article 19113 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Denmark: Christopherson & extremist networking
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 06:53:44 -0500
Organization: University of Michigan
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References: <39sdpm$9cg@newsbf01.news.aol.com>
   
   
   
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm005-09.dialip.mich.net

hoffman2nd@delphi.com wrote:

> Danny A. Nijburg  writes:
>  
> >This in my not so humble opinion would qualify him as a suitable candidate for 
> >non-survival in a bombing raid. More so as this bombing was a direct 
> >consequence of the war of agression in which he took an active part.
>  
> Ha, ha. Don't you just love the partisanship of these characters? Turning
> the city of Dresden into a crematory oven was "justified" because of the
> "war of aggression."

Hoffman, you've struck yet another low.

The only question is, as Mike Stein has asked before, whether you want to
be known as an illiterate or a liar.

Mr. Nijburg's meaning was obviously that Christophersen deserved to die for
his crimes as an SS man at Auschwitz, as is made obvious by this line which
you deleted:

> He was  SS-Sonderfu"hrer  in Auschwitz, member of a criminal  organisation 
> actively involved in crimes against humanity.

So, let's see.  Your statement about Dresden being "justified" has no basis.
The word "justified," which you put in quotes, isn't being quoted from
anywhere.  No one is justifying the bombing of Dresden, and you know it.

Although...maybe...no.  It couldn't be.  Surely you don't think that saying
"A is a direct consequence of B" is tantamount to saying "B justifies A."
Still...I suppose your reading skills might be low enough that you could
claim that as your excuse.  So illiteracy is still a possibility here.

But, you deliberately deleted a line giving reason why the man in question
deserves to die -- you deleted it to make your point.

And I think that elision classifies you as a liar, not merely an illiterate.
What do you think, Mike?
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "No, you're a kook.  And your mother wears army boots, putz."  "I know the
  phenomenon well...when a certain type of user gets his or her back against
  the wall...the personal...abuse begins to flow in torrents."  - W. McGuire


Article 19119 of alt.revisionism:
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From: flax@aristotle.algonet.se (Jonas Flygare)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Michael Stein and Baruch Goldstein
Date: 16 Nov 1994 18:59:43 GMT
Organization: AlgoNet Public Access Node, Stockholm
Lines: 30
Message-ID: 
References: <7kEnk0yNUU60073yn@world.std.com> <3a45gu$4m4@access1.digex.net>
	
	
NNTP-Posting-Host: aristotle.algonet.se
In-reply-to: hoffman2nd@delphi.com's message of Tue, 15 Nov 94 20:08:48 -0500

In article  hoffman2nd@delphi.com writes:

>Jonas Flygare  writes:

>>Sweden? Care to substantiate? ... Whoa! I get it! The above post is a

>Ditlieb Felderer was jailed for publishing forensic research on Auschwitz
>supportive of the revisionist thesis. This imprisonment was in Sweden.

Care to give a year and city, along with the name of the publication,
and the author of the publication? I have a distinct feeling that
apart from what you state above, he also made statements regarding
jews in general. You see swedish law works like this: It is ok to
state opinion: "I think all jews are thieves" As long as you make it
clear that it is your opinion, one can state just about any crackpot
statements. It's also ok to state "hoffman2nd@delphi.com is not too
bright, as can clearly be shown in the following posts coming from
that account." 
However, swedish law clearly forbids unsubstantiated sweeping
statements targeting a group of people, especially when the criterion
for who is (not) in the group is cultural background, or
religion. Thus, "All gypsies are thieves" would be punishable by law.

So, if you do not mind, I'd very much like more pointers to the arrest
you refer to.
--
Safe PGP key fingerprint =  A7 FA 4D 35 73 0E DB 65  69 D5 D4 E1 02 E6 91 E2 
Unix PGP key fingerprint =  0D 22 64 4D 05 35 53 BA  83 56 7B 56 C6 61 D4 A7 
DNA sequence fingerprint =  0E 21 45 FA 7A 11 34 FE  ED DE AD BE EF 8F 10 71
DNA copyright 1962 - 1994 by Jonas Flygare, Copyright yours before IBM does.


Article 19123 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dannya@xs4all.nl (Danny A. Nijburg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Denmark: Christopherson & extremist networking
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 21:58:42
Organization: DAN
Lines: 32
Message-ID: 
References: <39sdpm$9cg@newsbf01.news.aol.com>   
NNTP-Posting-Host: slip132-23.xs4all.nl
X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev A]

In article  hoffman2nd@delphi.com writes:
>From: hoffman2nd@delphi.com
>Subject: Re: Denmark: Christopherson & extremist networking
>Date: Tue, 15 Nov 94 05:10:55 -0500

>Danny A. Nijburg  writes:
> 
>>This in my not so humble opinion would qualify him as a suitable candidate for 
>>non-survival in a bombing raid. More so as this bombing was a direct 
>>consequence of the war of agression in which he took an active part.
> 
>Ha, ha. Don't you just love the partisanship of these characters? Turning
>the city of Dresden into a crematory oven was "justified" because of the
>"war of aggression." All the justification needed for mass murder of
>civilians is that their leaders started the war. But the Nazis claimed
>the Jews started the war against the Aryans in Russia in 1917. The only
>humane policy is to condemn any and all war crimes against civilians under
>any pretext. They are NEVER justified. --Michael A. Hoffman II


Rotterdam ?
Coventry ?

By the way, I am alone responsible for my statements and definitely not any 
other character.

                                         /\\\\           
Danny A. Nijburg                         (@|@)          
--------------------------------------ooO-(v)-Ooo-----
Victorieplein 47-2                        ~%~          
1078 PD Amsterdam- The Netherlands                                         
Phone/Fax +31 20 671 7711             Do unto others.....


Article 19129 of alt.revisionism:
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From: t08o@leda.sun.csd.unb.ca (Keith Morrison)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Put up or shut up, Mr. Hoffman (v 1.02, Round 2)
Date: 16 Nov 1994 22:56:53 GMT
Organization: University of New Brunswick, Fredericton, NB, Canada
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <3ae2nl$8nt@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>
References: <1994Nov15.130004.8751@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: leda.sun.csd.unb.ca

From: hoffman2nd@delphi.com
Message-ID: 

>People's Republic of Canadistan? 

1. Hoffie^2 probably knows about as much about Canada as he does
   about Archaen geologic processes

2. Hoffie^2 probably could not find Canada if he was standing on the
   49th parallel looking north holding a map with the country highlighted
   in bright green.

3. Assuming he found the nation, Hoffie^2 would probably arrive in July
   with a ski rack, parka and camera to get pictures of the Mounties
   riding moose while honest citizens took dogsleds to reach the
   neighbour's igloo.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Keith Morrison

************************************************************
*t08o@unb.ca  *  My views are not those of the University  *
***************  of New Brunswick.  UNB never has views on *
*             *  on anything, ever.                        *
************************************************************


Article 19145 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Re: Put up or shut up, Mr. Hoffman (v 1.02, Round 3)
References: <1994Nov15.130004.8751@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> 
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1994Nov20.231422.22266@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 94 23:14:22 GMT

In article  once again demonstrates the danger of
forgetting his medication:

>Mr. McVay I have already devastated your primitive claims in a previous
>thread wherein I outlined the hideous role of censorship in Canada and
>your relationship to it. 

Here, Mr. Hoffman addresses his ignorance of Canadian law; in
particular, his complete lack of knowledge about the Supreme Court of
Canada judgements with regard to Mr. Keegstra and Mr. Zu"ndel. Given
his claim of a background as a professional journalist, his assertions
in the face of such abysmal ignorance are telling.

Mr. Hoffman's ignorance of the Supreme Court rulings mirrors his
ignorance of the Canadian Charter of Rights, about which he _also_ 
knows nothing.

As has become s.o.p.  for Mr.  Hoffman, however, he injects an
implication that I have some sort of "relationship" to the "hideous
role of censorship in Canada," and demands that I discuss it...  and
so I shall:

I am completely opposed to censorship. As I pointed out in my recent
Canada AM interview, I believe Mr. Irving should be permitted to speak
in Canada, and Mr. Keegstra should be able to express his views, no
matter how repugnant they are. I even mentioned Mr. Hoffman by name,
in connection with those views, in the forlorn hope that he would get
the message. (Clearly, he did not.)

>Why not post your reply, which you have yet
>to give, in that thread. While you're at, would you kindly inform your

My reply was published here, and addressed the reality of Canadian
law; something of which Mr.  Hoffman demonstrates no understanding.  I
suggested that anyone who, unlike Mr.  Hoffman, actually wanted to
educate themselves with regard to that law might avail themselves of
the Supreme Court judgements which are available from my archives.

Perhaps Mr. Hoffman will now provide us with his analysis of those
judgements, and explain how they are meaningless in the face of his
continuing vomitus about Canadian censorship. The world awaits Mr.
Hoffman's learned discourse with regard to Canadian jurisprudence..

>percipients of the possible fate awaiting newspaper columnist Doug Collins
>and revisionist researcher John Ball in the People's Republic of
>Canadistan? 

Mr. Collins denied the Holocaust only a few weeks ago, in the
Vancouver Provence... last I heard, he was still walking about,
writing his reprehensible views for the North Shore News, rather than
languishing in jail for doing so... Perhaps Mr. Hoffman will explain
that, given his distorted view of Canadian law...

John Ball, of course, will continue as he has in the past, publishing
virtually worthless, and highly transparent, non-documents related to
the Holocaust.

>   I will post the info in a new edition of Victims of Thought
>Police later...As for my alleged money-making operation, unlike you,
>the distinguished convenience store clerk, I was a reporter for the
>Associated Press with a career prior to my undertaking the wages of
>revisionism. The resulting grule has been pretty slim compared to
>what I earned in my career before I was blacklisted by loathsome
>lackeys for the thought police such as yourself. Whereas you on the

If Mr. Hoffman's wierd claims relating to Canadian law are any
indication of his abilities as a wire-service reporter, it is not
difficult to comprehend his unemployment.

"Alleged," Mr. Hoffman? Do you not sell newsletters, "research"
magazines, and a book? Who benefits from the sale of that tripe, if
not yourself?

>other hand are seeking a gravy train out of informing for the
>censors and jailers. There's a vast difference between us, Mr.
>McVay. You are an opportunist and I an afficiando of lost and
>unpopular causes; i.e. you are a whore and I a fool.--Michael
>A. Hoffman II

As was the case with Mr. Hoffman's previous assertions about me, he
once again provides no proof. Really, it is no wonder AP dumped him,
given his absolute lack of journalistic integrity.

The mind boggles.
-- 

"However, it is sophistry to proclaim that something must have happened a
certain way because your `reason' demands it." (Greg Raven, Institute for
Historical Review)

Article 19166 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Re: Michael Stein and Baruch Goldstein
References: <7kEnk0yNUU60073yn@world.std.com> <3a45gu$4m4@access1.digex.net> 
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1994Nov21.023734.23567@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Mon, 21 Nov 94 02:37:34 GMT

In article  hoffman2nd@delphi.com writes:

>capital, a national "Yam HaShoaSecurity" Day and you get arrested in
>Canada, Germany, France and Sweden if you deny it.

Sorry, Mr. Hoffman, but that is factually incorrect.

Ernst Zu"ndel, for instance, was not arrested for denying the
Holocaust. 

Keegstra was not arrested for denying the Holocaust.

Mr. Zu"ndel, you see, was arrested under an antique code known as
publishing false news," which the Supreme Court of Canada has deemed
unconstitutional, based upon the Canadian Charter of Rights.

Mr. Keegstra, you need also note, was charged with promulgating
hatred - _another_ law struck down by the SCofC.

Mr. Collins, our own local bigot, denies the Holocaust liberally and
often, and certainly hasn't been arrested for it.

So you see, Mr. Hoffman, setting aside your ignorance of Canadian
law for the moment, even those restrictive laws which _were_
employed can no longer be employed.

Had you done some basic research, as a professional wire-service
(AP, didn't you say?) reporter would, you would know these things.

That you continue to speak untruths, however, speaks more loudly
than your obvious ignorance, and speaks additional volumes with
regard to why you are _no_longer_ with a wire-service.

>not aware of the sunrise. Our public school kids are aware of it. They're
>immersed with every month. My public library is aware of it. The shelves
>are teeming with the gassing tomes. Mr. Stein can't admit an enormous truth,
>he can only play the Talmudic game of weaseling out of overwhelming facts

And what facts are these, Mr. Hoffman? That schools teach history?
That libraries act as repositories for history books? And you see
some significance in this you find unusual?

My library also carries a book about Bassett Hounds, Mr. Hoffman,
and I have seen pictures of them in schools. People even parade them
around (sort-of.. it's difficult to parade a Bassett) in PUBLIC, Mr.
Hoffman.

Will you save us from the Bassett Cult?

They appear in movies!

They appear in Maytag commercials!

I'VE SEEN THE LITTLE BUGGERS ON TELEVISION!

I've seen them in magazines, too.

I'VE EVEN HAD ONE IN MY _HOUSE_, Mr. Hoffman.

Perhaps AP would be interested in your view of the Bassett
Conspiracy, aka "Cult," eh, Mr. Hoffman?

-- 

"However, it is sophistry to proclaim that something must have happened a
certain way because your `reason' demands it." (Greg Raven, Institute for
Historical Review)


Article 19172 of alt.revisionism:
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From: jeff_brown@pol.com (Jeffrey G. Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Put up or shut up, Mr. Hoffman (v 1.02, Round 2)
Date: 18 Nov 1994 02:46:09 GMT
Organization: Internet Access Cincinnati 513-887-8877
Lines: 28
Message-ID: 
References: <1994Nov15.130004.8751@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> <3aak7p$mue@access4.digex.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: ip041220.iac.net

In article , hoffman2nd@delphi.com wrote:

> Michael P. Stein  writes:
>  
> >    While you're at it, Mr. Hoffman, could you please produce your 
> >evidence that I'm an anti-German zealot?  Thank you for your attention.
>  
> Sure. That dull, dead, glassy-eyed reaction you exude whenever something
> truly unique in defense of the Germans arises from the documentary record
> to surprise and astonish you. Remember, "New Unhappy Lord"?
> --Michael A. Hoffman II

Hoffman strikes out again.

That is not evidence, Hoffman, except in your own murky mind. That is
simply another claim-cum-ad hominem attack. You have been asked to provide
evidence -- i.e., something that arises from outside your own skull, and
is independently verifiable -- and failed. We can therefore relegate your
"Stein is an anti-German zealot" statement to the category where so many
of your other statements have been placed -- it is a lie.

Tell us another one, Hoffman. It will be just as transparent as all the rest.

JGB

=====================================================================
Jeffrey G. Brown                                   jeff_brown@pol.com
 "What's going to happen?"   "Something wonderful..."   -- '2010'


Article 19178 of alt.revisionism:
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From: gt91rdj@brunel.ac.uk (Ricardo D Joshua)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Denmark: Christopherson & extremist networking
Date: 18 Nov 1994 12:00:06 -0000
Organization: Brunel University, Uxbridge, UK
Lines: 74
Message-ID: <3ai506$6mk@molnir.brunel.ac.uk>
References: <39sdpm$9cg@newsbf01.news.aol.com>   
NNTP-Posting-Host: molnir.brunel.ac.uk
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]

Danny A. Nijburg (dannya@xs4all.nl) wrote:
: In article  hoffman2nd@delphi.com writes:
: >From: hoffman2nd@delphi.com
: >Subject: Re: Denmark: Christopherson & extremist networking
: >Date: Tue, 15 Nov 94 20:16:18 -0500

: >Oh great master of the non-sequitur, forgive me for extrapolating from the
: >gentleman's notion that it was okay to get to Christophersen by incinerating
: >Dresden that he was somehow justifying the incineration of the people of
: >Dresden.I would welcome a clarification from him. I would hate to think anyone
: >could
: >justify the authentic holoaust that occurred in Dresden. By the way,
: >Christophersen was not SS but regular Wehrmacht 

: If so, how did he come by the rank of SS Sonderfuehrer ?

There was no such rank as "SS Sonderfuehrer. I do not know where you have
got this information from. Christophersen was a Wehrmacht auxiliary. Thus
he may have been connected to the SS (in some kind of bureaucratic way- I
am sure you know what the Nazi bureaucracy was like). If we are to say that,
then we should instantly condemn many anti-Communist freedom fighters as
"war criminals"- many Cossack, Turkomen and Ukrainian anti-Communist fighters
were at the end of the war connected to the SS organisation.

: >and if the SS was a crimianl organization


: >(and mainly it was definitely not) 

: Will you amplify on that statement, your definetely seems somewhat loosely 
: used.

The SS was classfied as a "criminal organisation" EN MASSE at Nuernberg. This
peculiar judgement classified many who had done nothing but fight for their 
country. In the words of Historian Michael Stuermer (who is close to Herr
Kohl, therefore not a "neo-nazi" historian, before you people start), anyone
at the end of the war who was over six feet tall had a good chance of being
cashiered into the Waffen-SS. 
Those who ran the labour camps were a very small minority, mainly consisting
of those unfit for active duty. The majority of the SS were either soldiers
or petty officials who did nothing more than organise such things as the
"Winter Relief" fund.

: >what was the Soviet Red Army, Mary Poppins'
: >helpers? How about Arthur Harris' Bomber Command, was that a "criminal
: >organization"? The NKVD? LeMay's Army Air Group in the Tokyo sector, what
: >were they--a commuter line? --Michael A. Hoffman II

: And what were the Seven Dwarfs? 
:  What has the one to do with the other ?
: Non Sequitor after Non Sequitor !

As I mentioned above, the SS was indicted EN MASSE for the actions of a few.
Therefore Michael's statement *is* relevant, in that, if there was any kind
of justice, the whole Soviet Army would have been charged with war crimes-
after all, did they not exterminate millions of East Europeans and embark
in mass-rape sessions of German women and girls? Those who dropped the atom
bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were from the USAF. Therefore, under the
Nuernberg principle, the whole USAF should have been tried. 

Yes, I know it is stupid. And so was the Nuernberg indictment. It has not
helped to bring any post-war war criminals to trial. It is only there to
safeguard Jews.

Ricky J.

"Justice and Truth, that's all I ask for... Is it too much?"

:                                          /\\\\           
: Danny A. Nijburg                         (@|@)          
: --------------------------------------ooO-(v)-Ooo-----
: Victorieplein 47-2                        ~%~          
: 1078 PD Amsterdam- The Netherlands                                         
: Phone/Fax +31 20 671 7711             Do unto others.....

Article 19201 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: doyal@eskimo.com (Thomas Doyal)
Subject: Re: Canadian Journalist Prosecuted for Criticizing Schindlers List
Message-ID: 
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
References: 
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 03:51:56 GMT
Lines: 61

hoffman2nd@delphi.com wrote:
: Ken McVay claims there is no persecution of revisionists in Canada. But right in
: this hypocritical, bold-faced liars own backyard, look at the persecution that
: has transpired:
:  
: The Vancouver Sun, Oct. 28, 1994: The Canadian Jewish Congress says the British
: Columbia (BC) Human Rights Council has decided to proceed against Columnist Doug
: Collins and the >>North Shore News.<< The Congress claimed in its complaint that
: a Collins column in the North Shore News violated the human rights act of BC by
: exposing the Jewish community to hatred and contempt...The March 9, 1994 column,
: entitled >>Hollywood Propaganda<< attacked the Steven Spielberg movie
: >Schindlers List< as hate propaganda.< (End Vancouver Sun article).
:  
: Mr. McVay claims there is no law in Canada which denies free speech and press
: rights to revisionists? He is dead-wrong! Here is proof that McVay is spinning
: propaganda fantasies to whitewash the crimes against freedom being committed by
: Jewish-dominated Canada:
:  
: >>Human Rights Amendment Act, 1993.
:  
: Her Majesty, by and with the advice and consent of the Legislative Assembly of
: the Province of British Columbia, enacts as follows...
:  
: 2. Discriminatory publication.
: (1). No person shall publish, issue or display or cause to be issued or
: displayed, any statement, publication, notice, sign, symbol, emblem or other
: representation that...is likely to expose a person or a group or class of
: persons to hatred or contempt.<<
:  
: Under this Orwellian law, columnist Doug Collins is being prosecuted because he
: protested in print against  the exposure of the class of persons known as
: Germans to hatred or contempt in the film Schindlers List.
:  
: This is the insanely tyrannical situation in Canada today--those who protest
: Jewish hate are prosecuted for being hateful. Why?Because ANY criticism of the
: Jewish Master Class in Canada is potentially a crime. Doug Collins criticized
: the movie Schindlers List as anti-German hate propaganda. For daring to write
: that truth he must face the Inquisition.
:  
: Americans will note that this inquisition against a newspaper columnist has not
: been reported in the U.S. whatsoever (at least to the best of my knowledge). The
: blackout has been clamped. News of it in the U.S. is being suppressed so the
: Canadians can get on with the sordid business of intimidating independent
: thinkers and writers with no fear of international protest.
:  
: Meanwhile folks, take a good look at this punk McVay. His statements are about
: as truthful as that of the Soviet Encyclopedia. He makes false pronouncements,
: chants >>liar, liar<< at his critics while posing as the >>human rights
: advocate<< battling the evil >>fascists.<<
: The inquisition against journalist Doug Collins and his newspaper the North
: Shore News is fascism with a human face. The mission of people like McVay is
: strictly partisan: to weep and wail about >>fascist censorship<< while covering
: up and denying fascist censorship perpetrated by Jewish tyrants who operate in
: the name of human rights and thereby make a mockery of human rights.
: McVay, you do not have a shred of credibility left!--Michael A. Hoffman II
____________________________________________________________________

You really nailed him good Michael.  Now we can look upon his other posts 
in the same light.  With contempt.  

Doyal@eskimo.com


Article 19204 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Re: Canadian Journalist Prosecuted for Criticizing Schindlers List
References:  
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1994Nov22.005410.1468@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 94 00:54:10 GMT

In article  doyal@eskimo.com (Thomas Doyal) writes:
>hoffman2nd@delphi.com wrote:
>: Ken McVay claims there is no persecution of revisionists in Canada. But right in
>: this hypocritical, bold-faced liars own backyard, look at the persecution that
>: has transpired:
>:  
>: The Vancouver Sun, Oct. 28, 1994: The Canadian Jewish Congress says the British
>: Columbia (BC) Human Rights Council has decided to proceed against Columnist Doug
>: Collins and the >>North Shore News.<< The Congress claimed in its complaint that
>: a Collins column in the North Shore News violated the human rights act of BC by
>: exposing the Jewish community to hatred and contempt...The March 9, 1994 column,
>: entitled >>Hollywood Propaganda<< attacked the Steven Spielberg movie
>: >Schindlers List< as hate propaganda.< (End Vancouver Sun article).
>:  
>: Mr. McVay claims there is no law in Canada which denies free speech and press
>: rights to revisionists? He is dead-wrong! Here is proof that McVay is spinning
>: propaganda fantasies to whitewash the crimes against freedom being committed by
>: Jewish-dominated Canada:

I am still waiting, Mr. Hoffman, for your analysis of the two
Supreme Court of Canada judgements relating to this issue. Either
you will have to admit your ignorance of these judgements, and their
effect upon such charges, or you will have to display your superior
knowledge of Canadian jurisprudence and demonstrate how such
charges, if brought, will not be dismissed by the court, given the
SCC precidents.

Which will it be?

>: >>Human Rights Amendment Act, 1993.
>: Her Majesty, by and with the advice and consent of the Legislative Assembly of
>: the Province of British Columbia, enacts as follows...
>: 2. Discriminatory publication.
>: (1). No person shall publish, issue or display or cause to be issued or
>: displayed, any statement, publication, notice, sign, symbol, emblem or other
>: representation that...is likely to expose a person or a group or class of
>: persons to hatred or contempt.<<

This law does not reject Holocaust denial per se, does it? Where is
the Holocaust included?

>: Under this Orwellian law, columnist Doug Collins is being prosecuted because he
>: protested in print against  the exposure of the class of persons known as
>: Germans to hatred or contempt in the film Schindlers List.

That's hilarious.

>: This is the insanely tyrannical situation in Canada today--those who protest
>: Jewish hate are prosecuted for being hateful. Why?Because ANY criticism of the
>: Jewish Master Class in Canada is potentially a crime. Doug Collins criticized
>: the movie Schindlers List as anti-German hate propaganda. For daring to write
>: that truth he must face the Inquisition.

When was this "truth" established, Mr. Hoffman?

>: Americans will note that this inquisition against a newspaper columnist has not
>: been reported in the U.S. whatsoever (at least to the best of my knowledge). The
>: blackout has been clamped. News of it in the U.S. is being suppressed so the
>: Canadians can get on with the sordid business of intimidating independent
>: thinkers and writers with no fear of international protest.

What evidence does Mr. Hoffman present for this silliness? The
recent (Homulka) debacle clearly demonstrates the futility (and
utter inablility) of any Canadian court to suppress anything. No
wonder AP dumped Mr. Hoffman!

>: Meanwhile folks, take a good look at this punk McVay. His statements are about
>: as truthful as that of the Soviet Encyclopedia. He makes false pronouncements,
>: chants >>liar, liar<< at his critics while posing as the >>human rights
>: advocate<< battling the evil >>fascists.<<

Mr. Hoffman continues to avoid providing his analysis of the Supreme
Court decisions... why is that, Mr. Hoffman?

>: The inquisition against journalist Doug Collins and his newspaper the North
>: Shore News is fascism with a human face. The mission of people like McVay is
>: strictly partisan: to weep and wail about >>fascist censorship<< while covering
>: up and denying fascist censorship perpetrated by Jewish tyrants who operate in
>: the name of human rights and thereby make a mockery of human rights.
>: McVay, you do not have a shred of credibility left!--Michael A. Hoffman II

The day Mr. Hoffman reduces my credibility will probably be the same
day AP rehires him...

>You really nailed him good Michael.  Now we can look upon his other posts 
>in the same light.  With contempt.  

>Doyal@eskimo.com

And how should we look upon someone who re-writes history, Doyal? (I
sometimes wonder how your son views all this vitriol of yours.. must
be difficult for the lad.)


-- 

"However, it is sophistry to proclaim that something must have happened a
certain way because your `reason' demands it." (Greg Raven, Institute for
Historical Review)


Article 19205 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Re: Hoffman's lies about Canadian law.
References:  <1994Nov17.212852.809@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> 
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1994Nov22.004120.1270@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 94 00:41:20 GMT

In article  hoffman2nd@delphi.com writes:

>The >>false news law<< had not been invoked in Canada in decades until
>Ernst Zundel published >>Did Six Million Really Die<< after which he was
>tried once and sentenced to prison in 1985; tried again and sentenced in
>1988. The Supreme Court decisions in Zundel's favor are solely the result
>of the work of attorney Doug Christie, Zundel and allies. Folks, keep a

In short, Mr. Hoffman agrees with the Supreme Court, that the 'false
news' law is unconstitutional. Ergo, his charges about denying the
Holocaust being actionable are also false.

>close eye on the dishonesty of McVay. What he is saying is that denying
>the "holocaust" in Canada is not illegal because there is no specific law
>honest enough to make it illegal. So what? Canada uses other laws to
>criminalize revisionism. Right now revisionist John Ball is facing
>prosecution and columnist Doug Collins, also a revisionist, may face
>legal action because he recently wrote that he does not believe in the
>gas chambers. But if he is charged, it will be under a Canadian law that
>says he directed contempt against an identifiable group (Jews).

In short, Mr. Hoffman agrees that he lied about denial being against
the law. It is not. Mr. Hoffman further highlights his ignorance of
the Keegstra decision, which isn't surprising, given his
demonstrably low journalistic standards.

>seized and Loompanics cannot be held responsible. The legal hell Zundel
>went through because he published a revisionist book in Canada is
>absolutely irrefutable. He said in a cell in the Don jail in Toronto
>because of it. He was under a gag order imposed by a judge for years
>ordering him not to talk about the gas chambers.

Past is past, Mr. Hoffman. Read the Supreme Court judgements before
cramming your foot even further into your mouth, and demonstrating
once again why you are no longer working as a stringer for AP.

>No laws against revisionism in Canada McVay? Ha!

No.

-- 

"However, it is sophistry to proclaim that something must have happened a
certain way because your `reason' demands it." (Greg Raven, Institute for
Historical Review)


Article 19210 of alt.revisionism:
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From: murray@snowhite.aes.mb.doe.ca (Murray Rennie)
Subject: Re: Victims of the Thought Police
Message-ID: 
Sender: @cid.aes.doe.ca (Network News)
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hoffman2nd@delphi.com wrote:
: Lisa Nyman  writes:
:  
: >I hate to be the one to tell you this, but a store can sell whatever it
: >wants and the Joos have nothing to do with it.
: >Does your Puffin House sell books by Elie Weisel?
: >Does Blockbuster sell porn? 
:  
: The point is that this bookstore had previously sold Dahl's books. They
: banned his works after he spoke out against the Israeli air force holocaust
: in Beirut in 1982. --Michael A. Hoffman II

The POINT is that the store decided not to sell Dahl's books.
The reason behind this decision is irrelevent.  From your statement, it 
appears that the person in charge of the store disagreed with Dahl, and
made his disagreement public by pulling Dahl's books.  There is nothing
wrong with this; as Lisa said the store can sell, or not sell, whatever 
it likes.



		Murray Rennie


Article 19217 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dannya@xs4all.nl (Danny A. Nijburg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Denmark: Christopherson & extremist networking
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 12:13:44
Organization: DAN
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In article <3ai506$6mk@molnir.brunel.ac.uk> gt91rdj@brunel.ac.uk (Ricardo D Joshua) writes:
>From: gt91rdj@brunel.ac.uk (Ricardo D Joshua)
>Subject: Re: Denmark: Christopherson & extremist networking
>Date: 18 Nov 1994 12:00:06 -0000

>Danny A. Nijburg (dannya@xs4all.nl) wrote:
>: In article  hoffman2nd@delphi.com writes:
>: >From: hoffman2nd@delphi.com
>: >Subject: Re: Denmark: Christopherson & extremist networking
>: >Date: Tue, 15 Nov 94 20:16:18 -0500

>: >Oh great master of the non-sequitur, forgive me for extrapolating from the
>: >gentleman's notion that it was okay to get to Christophersen by incinerating
>: >Dresden that he was somehow justifying the incineration of the people of
>: >Dresden.I would welcome a clarification from him. I would hate to think
>anyone
>: >could
>: >justify the authentic holoaust that occurred in Dresden. By the way,
>: >Christophersen was not SS but regular Wehrmacht 

>: If so, how did he come by the rank of SS Sonderfuehrer ?

>There was no such rank as "SS Sonderfuehrer. I do not know where you have
>got this information from. Christophersen was a Wehrmacht auxiliary. Thus
>he may have been connected to the SS (in some kind of bureaucratic way- I
>am sure you know what the Nazi bureaucracy was like). 


This is the rank he claimed in an interview which was broadcast on Swedish 
Television on September 18th, 1991, 20.00 hours.


>If we are to say that,
>then we should instantly condemn many anti-Communist freedom fighters as
>"war criminals"- many Cossack, Turkomen and Ukrainian anti-Communist fighters
>were at the end of the war connected to the SS organisation.

Yes, you finally understand.

>: >and if the SS was a crimianl organization


>: >(and mainly it was definitely not) 

>: Will you amplify on that statement, your definetely seems somewhat loosely 
>: used.

>The SS was classfied as a "criminal organisation" EN MASSE at Nuernberg. This
>peculiar judgement classified many who had done nothing but fight for their 
>country. In the words of Historian Michael Stuermer (who is close to Herr
>Kohl, therefore not a "neo-nazi" historian, before you people start),

There are quite a few ex- and neo- nazis to be found in CDU-CSU circles.

> anyone
>at the end of the war who was over six feet tall had a good chance of being
>cashiered into the Waffen-SS. 

*cashiered* ?????

>Those who ran the labour camps were a very small minority, mainly consisting
>of those unfit for active duty. The majority of the SS were either soldiers
>or petty officials who did nothing more than organise such things as the
>"Winter Relief" fund.

Except when they were playing Father Christmas.

>: >what was the Soviet Red Army, Mary Poppins'
>: >helpers? How about Arthur Harris' Bomber Command, was that a "criminal
>: >organization"? The NKVD? LeMay's Army Air Group in the Tokyo sector, what
>: >were they--a commuter line? --Michael A. Hoffman II

>: And what were the Seven Dwarfs? 
>:  What has the one to do with the other ?
>: Non Sequitor after Non Sequitor !

>As I mentioned above, the SS was indicted EN MASSE for the actions of a few.

It was inicted as a 'Criminal Organisation'

>Therefore Michael's statement *is* relevant, in that, if there was any kind
>of justice, the whole Soviet Army would have been charged with war crimes-
>after all, did they not exterminate millions of East Europeans and embark
>in mass-rape sessions of German women and girls? Those who dropped the atom
>bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were from the USAF. Therefore, under the
>Nuernberg principle, the whole USAF should have been tried. 

>Yes, I know it is stupid.

No, you are.

> And so was the Nuernberg indictment. It has not
>helped to bring any post-war war criminals to trial.

Here youre right. But, at least it brought some war-criminals to justice.
More important, the Nuernberg trials provided us with documentation on the 
stuff neo-nazis like you try to deny.

By the way, the present Tribunal in the Hague might fulfil a similar role 
regarding former Yougoslavia.

> It is only there to
>safeguard Jews.

Not a bad thing as such, or in your eyes ......?


>Ricky J.

>"Justice and Truth, that's all I ask for... Is it too much?"


                                         /\\\\           
Danny A. Nijburg                         (@|@)          
--------------------------------------ooO-(v)-Ooo-----
Victorieplein 47-2                        ~%~          
1078 PD Amsterdam- The Netherlands                                         
Phone/Fax +31 20 671 7711             Do unto others.....


Article 19221 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Squealing of Hoffman
Date: 20 Nov 1994 08:45 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article , karlpov@access3.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power) writes...
>That said, I wouldn't argue that living in a place which does have some 
>laws against free obnoxious expression seem to me particularly 
>oppressive.  I lived in the Netherlands for five years, for instance--and 
>I know that Nazi displays wouldn't be tolerated there, but I can't say 
>that this bothered me much.  

    It would bathor me.  I joined the ACLU back in the late 70s specificly
    BECAUSE they supported the Nazi's right to march in Skokie.  My
    decision was not popular with my family nor many of my friends, but I
    was bothered by the actions being taken to keep them from marching.

===========================================================================
daniel david mittleman     -     danny@arizona.edu     -     (602) 621-2932



Article 19234 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Hoffman's lies
In-Reply-To: hoffman2nd@delphi.com's message of Fri, 18 Nov 94 20:05:28 -0500
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <3ab16qINNhji@langsvr1.summit.novell.com> 
	 
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 22:05:00 GMT
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From: hoffman2nd@delphi.com
>As I stated in the thread >>Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented<< I am not
>only compiling examples of anti-German hate propaganda in the electronic media
>but also the numerous programs which slavishly idolize all things Jewish.

oh.

>This came into particularly high relief on a program like the "Simpsons,"
>which is renowned for its irreverence. Yet the Jewish religion was treated
>with ridiculously obsequious kid gloves by "Bart" and the gang.

Well, Homer Simpson barely escaped with his life from Sobibor
concentration camp along with Fred Flintstone and George Jetson (did
you know George Jetson was Jewish? Yeah, used to be Jetzinksy.)

I also hear the next episode of Beavis and Butthead features them
trying to circumsize each other. Should be a gas.


-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 19236 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Canadian Journalist Prosecuted for Criticizing Schindlers List
In-Reply-To: doyal@eskimo.com's message of Sat, 19 Nov 1994 03:51:56 GMT
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>You really nailed him good Michael.  Now we can look upon his other posts 
>in the same light.  With contempt.  
>
>Doyal@eskimo.com

So *who* invaded Poland first, again?

I realize the truth is your enemy, Mr Doyal. And in this war you make
a fine cheerleader. I wonder how you look in short shorts and a
pom-pom...


-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 19237 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: In Dramatic Confrontation, Irving Convicts Lipstadt of Lying
Date: 19 Nov 1994 22:40:10 GMT
Organization: Brown University
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Hoffman, perhaps you can comment on the following. So far, no other
"revisionist" on the net did. It seems to portray David Irving as
either a complete moron, or a liar, or, at least, as a really
confused person.

(BTW, Irving's article, which you posted, was so childish and silly 
that it was really quite pathetic. Also, the fact he gives out his 
books for free - like Gannon, who seems to be giving out video
cassettes for free - proves that hardly anyone thinks this garbage
is worth paying for; but that's a different matter).

Anyway, Dan "nazi-boy" Gannon posted, sometime ago, what he claims
is excerpted from a speech by "leading revisionist" David Irving in
an IHR conference. Irving is analyzing Eichmann's diary, and he
stumbles on the following paragraph:

# He [Eichmann] describes how in July 1941 (if you piece together
# the months and the dates) he is summoned to Berlin to visit
# Reinhard Heydrich, the chief of the Reich Security Main Office
# (RSHA). Heydrich utters to him the fateful words, "Ich komme vom 
# Reichsfuhrer SS.  Der Fuhrer hat den Befehl zur physischen
# Vernichtung der Juden gegeben."  ("I've come from the Reichsfuhrer
# SS [Himmler].  The Fuhrer has given the order for the physical 
# destruction of the Jews.")

So, Irving admits Eichmann wrote that [SS General] Heydrich told him
that Hitler ordered to physically exterminate the Jews. What to do,
then, when confronted with the evidence? The way Irving tries to
wriggle out of this boggles the mind - he says that maybe Eichmann
distorted what Heydrich told him, and that Hitler meant only the
"destruction of Judaism" (!?).

However, Irving goes on to write the following:

#    What else is there in the Eichmann papers?  Well, he describes 
# how, after Heydrich called him to Berlin and uttered this fateful 
# sentence about the Fuhrer having given the order, Heydrich said that 
# Himmler has ordered Odilo Globocnik to carry out this task, and that 
# Himmler had actually ordered that the Russian anti-tank ditches were to 
# be used for disposing of the bodies. Heydrich orders Eichmann to go out 
# and check what Globocnik is doing.

Surely, a strange way of "destroying Judaism". I guess "Judaism" was
to be destroyed, and then buried in anti-tank ditches?

Any explanation for this? Specifically, how many anti-tank ditches
were needed to bury "Judaism"? 


-Danny Keren.


Article 19239 of alt.revisionism:
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
From: staff@rabbit.augs.se (Staffan Friberg)
Subject: Re: Hoffman's lies about Canadian law.
References: <3a45gu$4m4@access1.digex.net>   <1994Nov17.212852.809@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
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In article <1994Nov17.212852.809@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay) writes:

[...]

> >:500 movies playing on television, a museum in California and the nation's
> >:capital, a national "Yam HaShoaSecurity" Day and you get arrested in
> >:Canada, Germany, France and Sweden if you deny it.
> 
> Mr. Hoffman, never one to let facts stand in his way, once again
> shows his complete ignorance with regard to Canadian law.
> Those who, unlike Mr. Hoffman and Mr. McGuire, _are_ interested in
> factual, legal reality, are invited to peruse the archives here.

[...]

> I might also add that I know of no Canadian law which makes denial
> of the Holocaust an offense. The Zundel case dealt with the
> demolition of the "publishing false news" matter as well. 

I believe that you have a law similar to our swedish law "incitement against
ethnic group", is that right? It doesn't mention the holocaust or anything
else but I do believe that it could be used against someone who goes too far
in denying what happened.

-- 

                                                            //
                                                           //
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ \\ //  AMIGA +++
+ Staffan Friberg                   +  EMail:           \X/           +
+ Undergraduate student  Chemistry  +                                 +
+ Linkvping University              +  InterNet: staff@rabbit.augs.se +
+ Sweden                            +  FidoNet:  2:204/404.2  or      +
+                                   +            2:204/418.9          +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Don't laugh - this is science"
                     (James Randi)

Article 19246 of alt.revisionism:
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From: ai433@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (John Baglow)
Subject: The Squealing of Hoffman
Message-ID: 
Sender: ai433@freenet3.carleton.ca (John Baglow)
Reply-To: ai433@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (John Baglow)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
References:  
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 00:02:27 GMT
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In a previous article, hoffman2nd@delphi.com () says:

>John Baglow  writes:
> 
>>quotes being from the revisionist camp, is absolutely right. There *is* no
>>specific law in Canada making it an offence to deny the Holocaust. There
>>is such a specific law in Germany. In Canada, recourse must be had to
>>other statutes, with indifferent success (judging by the Keegstra acquittal).
> 
>Look at this petty-fogging dissimulation! Which is it, no law or no specific
>law.

The dissimulation is entirely yours. The original issue was whether or not
Canada had a law like Germany's. We don't. Other, vaguer statutes have had
to be employed instead. McVay was stating a fact. He has never claimed
that other laws on the books can't be employed against hatemongers. They
have been and they are being.

>Jim Keegstra spent twelve years trying to get his arrest and conviction for
>teaching anti-Jewish material in his classroom overturned. The >>indifferent
>success<< of his prosecution translates into the destruction of his teaching
>career, the loss of his mayorship of Eckville, the loss of his savings and
>the loss of his good name and reputation after twelves years of being
>dehumanized in the media and made the subject of no less than three (!)
>movies that smeared him. Perhaps the prosecution was not entirely successful
>because Keegstra is not in prison! His success was do to revisionists who
>fought against libels that claimed that anyone who fought to defend Mr.
>Keegstras rights was a >>crypto-Nazi.<<

My heart bleeds for this guy. Nothing "crypto" about his defenders, BTW.

>>BTW, the sooner Doug Collins is behind bars, the better. This gentleman
> 
>Look at this disgusting statement. Incredible. Absolutely incredible. And this
>person wishes to take the high moral ground while demanding the imprisonment
>of a journalist?

Calling Doug Collins a "journalist" is like calling Adolf Hitler a "painter."

--
John Baglow			"Listen to the fool's reproach! it is a
				 kingly title!"
					--William Blake			


Article 19251 of alt.revisionism:
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From: t08o@leda.sun.csd.unb.ca (Keith Morrison)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Squealing of Hoffman
Date: 20 Nov 1994 03:12:54 GMT
Organization: University of New Brunswick, Fredericton, NB, Canada
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In article ,
Charles R.L. Power  wrote:
>ai433@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (John Baglow) writes:
>
>>The dissimulation is entirely yours. The original issue was whether or not
>>Canada had a law like Germany's. We don't. Other, vaguer statutes have had
>>to be employed instead. McVay was stating a fact. He has never claimed
>>that other laws on the books can't be employed against hatemongers. They
>>have been and they are being.
>
>To put in my own two American and definitely antirevisionist cents, I can 
>see where hoffman2, cretin though he is, is coming from.  We folks down 
>south don't consider another country entirely decent unless it has 
>principles (we express ours in the First Amendment) specifically 
>exempting the expression of opinion from prosecution.  Whether Canada's 
>laws are specifically directed against Holocaust denial or against hate 
>speech in some more general way, they just ain't kosher by our standards, 
>and moreover, they're close enough to each other to be compared quite 
>handily.
>
>This should not be seen--PLEASE!--as implying any sympathy for Irving, 
>Keegstra, Leuchter, hoffman2 or any other revisionist pusbrain.  But I'm 
>disturbed that any of them are subject to prosecution for trying to push 
>their excuses for ideas.

The difference is mainly due to history.  I know this isn't
the right forum to get into this, but the fact is that Americans
have traditionally put more stock in individual freedoms than
Canadians.  Not to say that Canada has by any means been more
oppressive of individual rights, it's just that historically Canadians
have been concerned more with group as opposed to individual.

As an example, our first "constitution", the British-North America act
of 1867 made mention of "peace, order and good government" as being
the prime concern, not individual rights as laid out in the US
Constitution and the first few amendments.  In fact, until 1982 there
was no section of constitutional law that specifically spelled out
individual rights and freedoms until the Charter of Rights and Freedoms,
and even that has a clause that allows a government to put aside the
laws therein for "the greater good".

Over the last few years there has been a shift toward more individual
freedom and it will not surprise me to see our hate laws become a bit
more lax.  It probably indicates the typical Canadian schizophrenia 
when faced with group-vs-individual rights that I can see the rationale
on both sides and have different opinions on the laws depending on what
time of day you ask me.  

This is typical of most political issues that have an equivalent in the
US, for example gun control.  I myself enjoy shooting.  But I dislike
hunting.  And I love heavy weapons.  But I don't see the need for a
civilian needing a 30-round mag.  And so on.  But I digress...

While I can see the need for laws that prevent people from spreading
hatred especially wrt teachers in the classroom, I agree with Ken McVay
that the scum should placed on the sun, where (if I may extend the
metaphor) they will dry up and blow away.  If this entire thing sounds
confusing, welcome to Canadian politics.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Keith Morrison

"I never evade answering any specific posts, because I never, ever
 commit anything to print that I am not willing to back up in detail."
                                       - Wayne McGuire, 7 Nov 1994

************************************************************
*t08o@unb.ca  *  My views are not those of the University  *
***************  of New Brunswick.  UNB never has views on *
*             *  on anything, ever.                        *
************************************************************


Article 19252 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: The Squealing of Hoffman
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
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John Baglow (ai433@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) wrote:
: ... The original issue was whether or not
: Canada had a law like Germany's. We don't. Other, vaguer statutes have had
: to be employed instead. McVay was stating a fact. He has never claimed
: that other laws on the books can't be employed against hatemongers. They
: have been and they are being...

Love that "hatemongers."  By any reasonable standards the real hatemongers 
are the ones who don't just talk hatred but do it; assault plus battery, 
sort of.  I'm talking about the Holocaust promoters who destroyed the 
careers of Ernst Zuendel, Fred Leuchter, and Robert Faurisson, among others.

: >>BTW, the sooner Doug Collins is behind bars, the better. This gentleman
: > 
: >Look at this disgusting statement. Incredible. Absolutely incredible. 
: >And this
: >person wishes to take the high moral ground 
: >while demanding the imprisonment
: >of a journalist?

: Calling Doug Collins a "journalist" 
: is like calling Adolf Hitler a "painter."


He sure had that Vancouver paper fooled then.  And BTW, I don't think 
Hitler's paintings are that bad.


         Ross Vicksell


Article 19255 of alt.revisionism:
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From: martev 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: In Dramatic Confrontation, Irving Convicts Lipstadt of Lying
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 00:02:51 -0500 (EST)
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I think that was one of the dippsiest things to read so far on this
playground for the sickies..

Yup, the students got what they paid for, NOTHING, oops, please excuse 
the caps, NO PUN INTENDED



Article 19256 of alt.revisionism:
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From: martev 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Squealing of Hoffman
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 00:06:52 -0500 (EST)
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In-Reply-To:  

Charles, I'm not one for censorship..

BUT,  maybe the Canadian hate laws there, considers the hate similar to 
libel, and libel is a sue-able offense...

Wonder what the real purpose was for that law?

Anyone know?


Article 19259 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dannya@xs4all.nl (Danny A. Nijburg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Denmark: Christopherson & extremist networking
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 09:56:42
Organization: DAN
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X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev A]

In article  hoffman2nd@delphi.com writes:
>From: hoffman2nd@delphi.com
>Subject: Re: Denmark: Christopherson & extremist networking
>Date: Tue, 15 Nov 94 20:16:18 -0500

>Oh great master of the non-sequitur, forgive me for extrapolating from the
>gentleman's notion that it was okay to get to Christophersen by incinerating
>Dresden that he was somehow justifying the incineration of the people of
>Dresden.I would welcome a clarification from him. I would hate to think anyone
>could
>justify the authentic holoaust that occurred in Dresden. By the way,
>Christophersen was not SS but regular Wehrmacht 

If so, how did he come by the rank of SS Sonderfuehrer ?

>and if the SS was a crimianl organization


>(and mainly it was definitely not) 

Will you amplify on that statement, your definetely seems somewhat loosely 
used.

>what was the Soviet Red Army, Mary Poppins'
>helpers? How about Arthur Harris' Bomber Command, was that a "criminal
>organization"? The NKVD? LeMay's Army Air Group in the Tokyo sector, what
>were they--a commuter line? --Michael A. Hoffman II

And what were the Seven Dwarfs? 
 What has the one to do with the other ?
Non Sequitor after Non Sequitor !
                                         /\\\\           
Danny A. Nijburg                         (@|@)          
--------------------------------------ooO-(v)-Ooo-----
Victorieplein 47-2                        ~%~          
1078 PD Amsterdam- The Netherlands                                         
Phone/Fax +31 20 671 7711             Do unto others.....


Article 19262 of alt.revisionism:
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From: karlpov@access3.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Squealing of Hoffman
Date: 20 Nov 1994 03:40:07 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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t08o@leda.sun.csd.unb.ca (Keith Morrison) writes:

>The difference is mainly due to history.  I know this isn't
>the right forum to get into this, but the fact is that Americans
>have traditionally put more stock in individual freedoms than
>Canadians. 

Well, yes, we pride ourselves on being more concerned with individual 
freedoms than anyone else, to the extent that outsiders find us downright 
nuts sometimes.  There's the well-known outsider reaction to the 2nd 
Amendment, for instance (the right to bear arms).  And folks in many 
parts of the world see no reason at all to protect the right of Nazis to 
parade in public.  We do.

That said, I wouldn't argue that living in a place which does have some 
laws against free obnoxious expression seem to me particularly 
oppressive.  I lived in the Netherlands for five years, for instance--and 
I know that Nazi displays wouldn't be tolerated there, but I can't say 
that this bothered me much.  Different strokes....


Article 19263 of alt.revisionism:
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From: karlpov@access4.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Squealing of Hoffman
Date: 19 Nov 1994 20:42:49 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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ai433@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (John Baglow) writes:

>The dissimulation is entirely yours. The original issue was whether or not
>Canada had a law like Germany's. We don't. Other, vaguer statutes have had
>to be employed instead. McVay was stating a fact. He has never claimed
>that other laws on the books can't be employed against hatemongers. They
>have been and they are being.

To put in my own two American and definitely antirevisionist cents, I can 
see where hoffman2, cretin though he is, is coming from.  We folks down 
south don't consider another country entirely decent unless it has 
principles (we express ours in the First Amendment) specifically 
exempting the expression of opinion from prosecution.  Whether Canada's 
laws are specifically directed against Holocaust denial or against hate 
speech in some more general way, they just ain't kosher by our standards, 
and moreover, they're close enough to each other to be compared quite 
handily.

This should not be seen--PLEASE!--as implying any sympathy for Irving, 
Keegstra, Leuchter, hoffman2 or any other revisionist pusbrain.  But I'm 
disturbed that any of them are subject to prosecution for trying to push 
their excuses for ideas.


Article 19265 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dehumanizers and the Net: Eye on McVay and his Media Allies
Date: 19 Nov 1994 10:28 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

    I offer some comments on passages from:

>Dehumanizers and the Net:Eye on McVay and His Media Allies
>Copyright 1994 By Michael A. Hoffman II.

>As this writer has previously asserted, Mr. Ken McVay brings to the academic
>debate on the history of World War Two in the news group alt.revisionism the
>mindset of the policeman. His is a world of the good guys: Jews, Zionists and
>all true-believers in the official Allied version of history, versus the
>criminals who dare to dissent from the views of the good guys.

    I am not sure of the policeman characterization, but you may be right
    that Ken and many others view this as a good guy / bad guy stand off. 
    To label the bad guys as criminals probably is not fair to them as
    dissention of the prevailing view is not in itself a criminal act.  I
    don't recall such a label being asserted here, though.

>Let us look at the blanket characterizations used to describe those who dissent
>from official history, as published in >>eye Weekly<< (hereafter eW), an alleged
>journal for non-conformists which, oddly enough, upholds conformity when it
>comes to Establishment history.
> 
>eW in its Nov. 10, 1994 issue published a sweetheart interview with Ken McVay,
>the Internet thought cop who has become the darling of the media. No attempt was
>made to balance the article, entitled >> .Sig (sic) Heil:Holocaust Revisionism
>Goes Up in Flame Wars<< by interviewing revisionists or offering their side of

    I think the title is cute. :>

>the question. The patent supposition of the author (K.K. Campbell)--as in any
>cult or religion--is that there is only one side, one truth, one set of >>good
>guys.<< That this concept is the basis for totalitarianism is an insight missed

    You know, I am a firm opponent to the idea that their are doctrinere
    truths.  I always try to look at the other side.  As I may have said
    before, I came to a.r thru sci.skeptic.  That is the basis of my
    participation here.  And I have looked for two legitimate points of
    view in this discussion.  While there are occasionally alternative
    points of view which seem to have a glimmer of merit (your assertion
    about hollywood biases towards a particular viewpoint, for example),
    the core of the denier argument put forth here - that there was no
    concerted effort by the Nazis to use gas chambers during the holocaust
    has not been supported with sufficent evidence to even consider it a
    second legitimate point of view.

>by these myopic partisans who pose as opponents of totalitarianism, the better
>to advance orthodoxy and conformity as decreed by Jewish authority and enforced
>by dutiful servants like eW newspaper and Ken McVay.

>Quotes from the article:
>>>Anti-racist and anti-fascist online activists continue to track (revisionist
>researcher Dennis) Gannon and his pals around the 9,000-odd newsgroups. One such
>hunter is Ken McVay...<<

    Should read "Dan" not "Dennis"

>Here we see a stereotype established. On the one side are those who allegedly
>oppose fascism and racism and on the other are those wicked revisionists who
>need to be >>tracked<< by >>hunters.<<

>Imagine if such terminology were invoked with regard to Jewish researchers! The
>righteous wailing about >>the reiteration of the darkest metaphors of medieval
>witch-hunting and scapegoating by a lynch mob-mentality that has forever pursued
>Jews through the corridors of history<< would be deafening.

    Here is the crux of the conflict.  Those "hunters" do not see evidence
    that any real "research" is taking place.  While I grant you there
    would still be a few zealots who would give legitimate researchers
    trouble if those researchers were working on hypotheses counter to the
    zealots' beliefs, what we have here are deniers who are engaging in
    either unsupported assertion or very poorly executed research and
    propogandists who realize all they are doing is spreading political
    doctrine.

    These "hunters" differentiate such people from legitimate researchers
    who are open to whatever they might fine doing high quality
    investigative work.  The latter merit respect and assistance in their
    research; the former do not.

>But it is open season on revisionists, who are so dehumanized that they may be
>referred to in terms connoting the apprehension of criminals and fugitives. This
>framework is put forth by a supposedly hip, progressive, human rights oriented
>newspaper. This is how >>Holocaust<< cultism blinds people to the violation of
>the very standards they claim to wish to uphold.

    Well, not so much as criminals and fugitives then as propogandists and
    activists for a cause that is not at all respected.

>The opposition to revisionism is bracketed within the perimeters of
>>>anti-racism<< and >>anti-fascism.<< The latter invective is so overworked and
>tossed about with such irresponsibility as to have escaped all precise reference
>to its meaning.  Fascism is the dictatorial regime established by Benito
>Mussolini in 1923 in Italy. It consists of a belief in One Truth to which
>conformity is demanded and enforced by means of the centralization of state
>power. 

    Well, you may have a small point here.  People have lumped National
    Socialism in the same pot with Fascism.  While the two philosophies
    have many similarities and the two were allies in the War, it probably
    is better to be specific in how one labels.

    While NSs may not see themselves as racist, most of the rest of the
    world does - so that labelling does not require any apology.  And you
    left out "anti-semetic."  The opposition to the deniers is anti
    anti-semetic.

>The people espousing state-enforced conformity of thought  today are the
>followers of the Shoah Biz Industry.

    Talk about loose labelling :>

>The notion that opposing revisionism is an anti-racist function is erroneous.
>The >>Holocaust<ideologies. It decrees that no other people in World War Two suffered a
>>>Holocaust<< except the victims of the Axis. The 500,000 German civilians
>burned alive deliberately in the area bombing strategy of the RAF and the USArmy
>Air Force are not human enough to qualify as >>Holocaust<< victims, even though
>the word >>holocaust<< by definition means a victim of burning. Neither are the
>hundreds of thousands of Japanese victims of the firebombing of Tokyo or the
>nuclear incineration of Hiroshima and Nagasaki qualified as victims of a
>>>Holocaust<< in the official parlance of Establishment historiography.

    I think you are in error in the above paragraph.  I don't recall ever
    reading anti-denier postings or literature which suggests what you
    write above (I am open to seeing a reprint of such if you have it to
    offer.)  In contrast, I have seen writing suggesting that the Dresden
    firebombing was a stupid and unnecessary military action.  I have seen
    writing discussion the nuclear incineration of the japanese cities.  I
    have seen writing talking about the Rape of Nanking and the japanese
    atrocities against the Chinese and Koreans - and the Japanese denial of
    such atrocities.  I have seen postings in this group talking about how
    the German people were the worst victims of the Nazi regime.  And
    McGuire constantly reminds us of the Soviet atrocities.

    While all of these are holocausts, you are right that "The Holocaust"
    usually refers to the eleven million the Nazis killed.  But to say that
    the others are ignored is like saying no one believes any woman has
    been raped in Bosnia because we only talk about the Rape of Nanking.  

>Helpless victims of the Israeli military, such as the civilian population of
>Beirut, Lebanon whose civilian center was deliberately saturated with
>anti-personnel ordinance, including clearly marked schools and hospitals (cf.
>>>God Cried<not be referred to as victims of a holocaust.

    Is this your statement or a quote from him?  If the latter, could you
    offer the page?  As you frame the situation, I'd agree with you that
    such an event would be a holocaust.  But I don't really follow middle
    east events very closely so I have no idea what actually happened.

>Hence we see the deep and searing racism incumbent within Jewish >>Holocaust<<
>cultism. Those who oppose this cultism are opposing the exclusive
>racial/religious chauvinism inherent in it and therefore, revisionism is at its
>core an ati-racist activity.

    I see you have made an argument for a double standard.  How do you jump
    from such a double standard to racism?

>The appropriation of labels inferring exclusive goodness to upholders of one
>side of an historical debate is redolent of the Catholic Church in Spain in the
>17th century or the Stalinist courts of the 1930s.

    On the contrary, [1] many (most?) of the people involved in the
    discussion in this newsgroup would be open to solid supported evidence
    that demonstrates something of a counter point of view.  Take for
    example your assertions about hollywood.  If you presented them [a]
    without the dogma and rhetoric, [b] if you worked a bit to demonstrate
    numerical differentials rather than simply offering lumps (which may or
    may not be selective in their choice) of movies, and [c] if you were a
    bit more scientific in your definitions of categories then you might
    have something.  And I think the response to your posts reflected this. 
    Some might reject you out of hand, but many - including me - were more
    rejecting your methodology and your rhetoric than anything else. 

>History is by its nature an open subject. Curiosity and investigation are
>factors which cannot be proprietary to any >>side<< in a debate. One may hold
>any position predicated upon ones own research and curiosity, wherever those
>faculties of free human inquiry lead. To traumatize such inquiry by establishing
>categories of >>good researchers<< and >>bad researchers<< is the first step in
>a process of intimidation.

    But there are good researchers and bad researchers.  Good researchers
    use good methods and techniques.  Good researchers do not begin with a
    conclusion and then go hunting selectively for evidence to support that
    conclusion.  There are both good and bad researchers on the side of the
    dominant paradigm.  I have not seen any indication that there are good
    researchers on the side of the "revisionists", I have only seen
    indications that they are deniers.  You are most welcome to present me
    with some good revisionist research.  You are most welcome to engage in
    such good research yourself if you like.

    It is no coincidence that most good researchers are academics.  It
    takes many years to develop the skills to do good research (although
    Ken McVay is an example of someone who seems to have fairly good
    research skills with a less education - actually I have no idea what
    Ken's education is, I am simply guessing it is less than a PhD).

>If one takes the revisionist position one is ipso facto >>racist<< and
>>>fascist<< according to the Establishment orthodoxy but more and more people
>are rejecting this demonization.

    If one takes any position and then cannot defend that position with
    logic and evidence in debate yet continues to hold that position, then
    one is suspect of having an ulterior agenda.

>Mr. McVay is quoted as describing revisionists in the following pejorative
>terms:

>>>The most intellectual among them are stupid and inept when it comes to
>historical research. And of course they are liars.<<

    That seems a fair quote given the evidence I have seen in this
    conference over the past 18 months.  We have seen lots of bad research
    which has not held up to logical questioning and external
    documentation.  We have seen specific documented examples here of lying
    (although I would agree if you asserted that the term "liar" is used
    too loosely in this conference.)

>Readers are informed by McVay that ALL revisionist research is stupid and inept,
>yet Mr. McVays colleagues have not demonstrated any overwhelming superiority in
>Internet debates. 

    My conclusion as one who came into this debate looking to be convinced
    by either side is very different than your conclusion.  I concluded
    that there was overwhilming superiority demonstrated by McVay et al. in
    alt.revisionism.

    >Sometimes the revisionists lose and sometimes the
>exterminationists lose. 

    I have seen few if any examples of the prevailing paradigm losing a
    debate in a.r to a revisionist argument.

    >For example, in this writers debate with an
>exterminationist, I was able to document that the SS Judiciary arrested
>Commandant Amon Goeth for crimes against inmates, a fact censored from the
>anti-German hate film Schindlers List in which Goeth figured as the central
>monster of villainy and in which the distinct impression was conveyed that
>Goeths crimes were sanctioned by the SS when in fact the opposite was the case.

    I don't recall the particulars of this debate (I didn't follow it all
    that closely).  Your opponents will certainly assert here if they do
    not agree you won it.  But lets assume for a moment you did win it. 
    So?  What have you demonstrated?  What can be generalized from it?

    If you are right in what you assert, and if you can demonstrate the
    Spielberg knew this information, then the conclusion is that Spielberg
    was selective in the information he presented.  We could then debate
    his responsibility to history to get all the detail right.  We could
    then debate Oliver Stone's repsonsibilities with JFK.

    Even if we concluded that Spielberg did know the truth and filmed
    something a little different than the truth, then what?  Then you would
    have evidence of a hollywood director taking liberties with truth in
    order to make a better movie.  Dog bites man!

    You are a long way from demonstrating any jewish conspiracy, let alone
    any differences in the historical documentation of the reality of - as
    they say - The Holocaust.

>Most recently, Mr. McVay, who apparently views himself as an adept researcher of
>high intelligence, stated on the Internet  that , >> I might also add that I
>know of no Canadian law which makes denial of the Holocaust an offense.<<

>However,  Mr. McVay,  the great researcher and truth-teller, seems to have been
>either so inept or so meretricious as to have overlooked a law on the books in
>his very own province of British Columbia by which North Shore News columnist
>Doug Collins and historian John Ball, both revisionists, are being prosecuted at
>the insistence of the Canadian Jewish Congress.

>This law, >>Human Rights Amendment Act, 1993, states: Her Majesty, by and with
>the advice and consent of the Legislative Assembly of the Province of British
>Columbia, enacts as follows...2. Discriminatory publication. (1). No person
>shall publish, issue or display or cause to be issued or displayed, any
>statement, publication, notice, sign, symbol, emblem or other representation
>that...is likely to expose a person or a group or class of persons to hatred or
>contempt.<<

    Assuming your information and representation are correct, then what you
    have shown is that Ken McVay, an adept researcher, is not as up to date
    with Canadian current events as he might be.  So?

>Since in the Orwellian world of Canadas Jewish-dominated system of
>jurisprudence, defense of the German people from hatred and contempt is deemed
>an act of hatred and contempt toward the Jewish ruling class, so-called
>>>anti-discrimination<< laws are effectively used to make revisionism a criminal
>offense.

    "Canada's Jewish-dominated system of jurisprudence"?  See this is what
    I mean by dogma and rhetoric.  If you have some evidence for such an
    assertion, I am happy to consider it.  If you make such an assertion
    without evidence, then you are just setting your self up to be labelled
    as an anti-semite.

    Ken has posted here, many others have posted here, and I will assert:
    most of the participants in the conference have very clearly stated
    that they do not think limiting free speech regarding the Nazi
    holocaust is good policy.

>It would appear that Mr. McVay, the erudite representative of an infallible
>school of historiography, is perhaps exaggerating a bit in his estimation of his
>own knowledge.

    I don't ever recall him asserting he had a high degree of knowledge
    about Canadian current events.  A 1993 law would fall under the
    category of current events.

>Mr. McVay refers to revisionists in general in the eW newspaper interview as,
>>>Nazis<< and >>racists.<<  The newspaper eW adds that revisionists only pretend
>to be scholars.

    Some deniers are Nazis. Others are National Socialists.  Other are
    probably neither.  The term "Nazi" is IMHO thrown around too loosely in
    this group.  I dont know why the paper added that revisionists only
    pretend to be scholars, but I agree with that assertion.  It appears
    that if you scratch a "revisionist" you find a propogandist.  We have
    seen evidence of this - or acknowledgement of this - from Vicksell and
    Raven in this conference.  Gannon's behavior is that of a publicist. 
    Kleim functions as a publicist for his NS group.  And you certainly
    have seen the Raven quote (I think it was Raven rather than Vicksell)
    who said the IHR exists to promote debate, not necessarily to engage in
    it.  That is a statement of a publicist/propogandist/spin doctor, not
    the statement of a scholar.

>Readers may wish to decide for themselves who the pretenders are and why the
>self-proclaimed proponents of peace, love and justice relentlessly dehumanize
>and stereotype those who merely have the audacity to disagree with a school of
>historical thought.

    I agree, readers may decide for themselves.

>In truth, revisionists comprise the whole spectrum of political affiliation,
>from people of color, Muslims, atheists and Jews to conservative Christians and
>proponents of National Socialism and White separatism. There are even some
>revisionists who have no political views, but who are drawn to an epistemology
>predicated upon the investigation of minority opinions, anomalous data and
>viewpoints opposed by government prosecutors and >>hunters<< and >>trackers<< of
>deviant thinkers. Their maxim is >>Question Authority,<< even the authority of
>the self-appointed spokespersons for and arbiters of true conformity.

    This sounds more like a roll call of conspiracy theorists.

    Who among the above mentioned is engaging in solid research.  Please
    provide some names, and some article citations.

===========================================================================
daniel david mittleman     -     danny@arizona.edu     -     (602) 621-2932


Article 19271 of alt.revisionism:
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From: t08o@metis.sun.csd.unb.ca (Keith Morrison)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Squealing of Hoffman
Date: 20 Nov 1994 19:31:39 GMT
Organization: University of New Brunswick, Fredericton, NB, Canada
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <3ao86r$6oa@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>
References:    
NNTP-Posting-Host: metis.sun.csd.unb.ca

In article ,
martev   wrote:
>Charles, I'm not one for censorship..
>
>BUT,  maybe the Canadian hate laws there, considers the hate similar to 
>libel, and libel is a sue-able offense...
>
>Wonder what the real purpose was for that law?
>
>Anyone know?

Yet another difference between our legal systems.  We are not as
litigation happy as our neighbours to the south.

Still, using libel laws is an interesting idea.  I'd say that some of
the stuff that they publish could be considered libel.  Does anyone
know of a case where this has been done?

---------------------------------------------------------------

Keith Morrison

"I never evade answering any specific posts, because I never, ever
 commit anything to print that I am not willing to back up in detail."
                                       - Wayne McGuire, 7 Nov 1994

************************************************************
*t08o@unb.ca  *  My views are not those of the University  *
***************  of New Brunswick.  UNB never has views on *
*             *  on anything, ever.                        *
************************************************************



Article 19274 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netnews
From: anny@ix.netcom.com (Annie Alpert)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: In Dramatic Confrontation, Irving Convicts Lipstadt of Lying
Date: 21 Nov 1994 00:18:49 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 33
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3aop19$l4b@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>
References:  <3alusa$b37@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: ix-nwk4-04.ix.netcom.com

In  hoffman2nd@delphi.com writes: 

>
>As a debating tactic, it is clever of you to seek to put revisionists 
forever on
>the defensive, hence your attempt to focus attention off of the fact 
that an
>icon of  >>Holocaust<< cultism, the high priestess Deborah Lipstadt, 
was caught
>retailing a big lie in order, as David Iving rightly said, to >>gull<< 
her
>impressionable audience, is understandable.
>[more like posturing deleted]

Hoffman, I've heard Lipstadt speak and I found it to be a very different 
experience than Mr. Irving's.  I'm pretty sensitive to errors made by 
Holocaust researchers and I found Dr. Lipstadt's lecture to be 
remarkable free from them.

At this point we have only Mr. Irving's word that Dr. Lipstadt said 
soemthing that was untrue.  Judging from the tone of his article I doubt 
that he con be considered an entirely objective observer.  He was 
looking for trouble and he would have found it one way or another.

I was completely amazed at the blatantly racist and sexist tone of his 
writings, though.  It was a crock of egotistical ravings from a 
self-important dinosaur, IMO!

-- 
* * * * * * * * * 
Annie Alpert

I've found a new home on NETCOM.  EMAIL me here if you like.


Article 19276 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: The Squealing of Hoffman
In-Reply-To: t08o@metis.sun.csd.unb.ca's message of 20 Nov 1994 19:31:39 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  
	
	
	<3ao86r$6oa@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>
Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 00:30:21 GMT
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From: t08o@metis.sun.csd.unb.ca (Keith Morrison)
>Still, using libel laws is an interesting idea.  I'd say that some of
>the stuff that they publish could be considered libel.  Does anyone
>know of a case where this has been done?

If you're referring to US law I believe it's pretty firmly established
that you cannot libel a group (as in a race or religion), only an
individual or specific legal entity (eg, a corporation.)


-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 19278 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: In Dramatic Confrontation, Irving Convicts Lipstadt of Lying
Date: 21 Nov 1994 07:15:36 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 56
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References:  <3alusa$b37@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> 
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 wrote:

Hoffman, I take it that you have no response to my quote from
Irving's speech, which proves the man is either hallucinating,
insane, or plain lying?

I remind what the quote was about. Irving quotes Eichmann as 
saying that Heydrich told him about Hitler's order for the
"physical destruction of the Jews" (direct quote). Irving tries
to wriggle out of this by making the infantile claim that Hitler
was really talking about the "destruction of Judaism". However,
Irving later quotes Eichmann as saying that Riechfuherer-SS Himmler
had actually ordered that the Russian anti-tank ditches were to 
be used for disposing of the bodies.

If "Judaism" was to be destroyed, would this produce so many corpses
that one would have to use anti-tank ditches to bury them in?

How odd. It does look like Irving has a few loose screws, doesn't it?

Care to address this matter?

# Nevertheless, I request that you address this remarkable
# development. The woman who has been licensed by the media and the
# academy to actually create categories of historical nomenclature,
# that is to say the thought cop term >>denier<< that is now  a 
# proforma appendage assigned to all the independenent researchers who
# revise or doubt various tales within the corpus of the pop legend
# known as >>THE Holocaust,<< has been caught in an egregious lie.

# As you and I both know, there are no such >>blueprints<< for
# Zyklon B pellet holes at Auschwitz. 

Frankly, I don't know that. I have not seen *all* the blueprints.

I have seen in Pressac's book the photographs of the gas chambers of
one of the Kremas, and he marks in them the small windows, equipped with 
shutters, via which the Zyklon was inserted. The aerial photographs
of Kremas II and III are there, and one can see the location of the 
holes through which the Zyklon was inserted; I recall that Pressac
adds that one of the openings can still be seen, although most of
the roof was dynamited - don't have the book with me, will have to
check on that.

# Lipstadt was either hallucinating or deliberately prevaricating. 

No, she may be right. Another possibility is that she confused
the photographs with blueprints. 

Pressac reproduces a document which mentions a "gas chamber" in one
of the Kremas, and a "gassing cellar" in another Krema. There is no
doubt that these Kremas contained gas chambers. This is, after all,
what counts.


-Danny Keren.


Article 19285 of alt.revisionism:
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From: flax@aristotle.algonet.se (Jonas Flygare)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hoffman's lies about Canadian law.
Date: 21 Nov 1994 08:35:20 GMT
Organization: AlgoNet Public Access Node, Stockholm
Lines: 34
Message-ID: 
References: <3a45gu$4m4@access1.digex.net> 
	
	<1994Nov17.212852.809@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: aristotle.algonet.se
In-reply-to: staff@rabbit.augs.se's message of Sat, 19 Nov 94 16:14:09 CET

In article  staff@rabbit.augs.se (Staffan Friberg) writes:

   In article <1994Nov17.212852.809@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay) writes:

   [...]

   > >:500 movies playing on television, a museum in California and the nation's
   > >:capital, a national "Yam HaShoaSecurity" Day and you get arrested in
   > >:Canada, Germany, France and Sweden if you deny it.
   > 
   > Mr. Hoffman, never one to let facts stand in his way, once again
   > shows his complete ignorance with regard to Canadian law.
   > Those who, unlike Mr. Hoffman and Mr. McGuire, _are_ interested in
   > factual, legal reality, are invited to peruse the archives here.

   [...]

   > I might also add that I know of no Canadian law which makes denial
   > of the Holocaust an offense. The Zundel case dealt with the
   > demolition of the "publishing false news" matter as well. 

   I believe that you have a law similar to our swedish law "incitement against
   ethnic group", is that right? It doesn't mention the holocaust or anything
   else but I do believe that it could be used against someone who goes too far
   in denying what happened.

Libel will do fine. The only difference is that we have a special law,
that say libel, when used against an ethnic group, should be
punished somewhat differently, than libel against an individual.
--
Safe PGP key fingerprint =  A7 FA 4D 35 73 0E DB 65  69 D5 D4 E1 02 E6 91 E2 
Unix PGP key fingerprint =  0D 22 64 4D 05 35 53 BA  83 56 7B 56 C6 61 D4 A7 
DNA sequence fingerprint =  0E 21 45 FA 7A 11 34 FE  ED DE AD BE EF 8F 10 71
DNA copyright 1962 - 1994 by Jonas Flygare, Copyright yours before IBM does.


Article 19294 of alt.revisionism:
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From: Murray Rennie 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Victims of the Thought Police
Date: 21 Nov 1994 23:29:15 GMT
Organization: Delft University of Technology, Dept. of Electrical Engineering
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <3aragb$mo5@liberator.et.tudelft.nl>
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> The point is dumbass, that the store by first enthusiastically selling
> Dahl books and then removing them only after he had the courage to speak
> against the Israeli air force holocaust inflicted on Beirut in 1982,
> banned his books. That is what we were disputing: whether or not the
> store had BANNED Dahls books. Obviously they had. Got it?
> --Michael A. Hoffman II

"dumbass" ?

First off, stores don't enthusiastically sell books, people enthusiastically 
buy books.  

So the store decided not to carry Dahls books after he spoke out.  It
is not right, but it was within the rights of the store owners/managers
to do so; just as it would be within the rights of the owner/manager
of a neo-nazi bookstore to "BAN" The Diary of Anne Frank, or The 
Talmud, or anything they don't agree with.

It is within the bookstore owners/manager right not to buy books if s/he
does not agree with the books contents or the authors points of view.


		Murray Rennie  


Article 19307 of alt.revisionism:
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From: jeff_brown@pol.com (Jeffrey G. Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: In Dramatic Confrontation, Irving Convicts Lipstadt of Lying
Date: 22 Nov 1994 04:19:03 GMT
Organization: Internet Access Cincinnati 513-887-8877
Lines: 26
Message-ID: 
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: ip041220.iac.net

In article , hoffman2nd@delphi.com wrote:

> >>I have here<>a  thousand
> dollars for you if you can produce to this audience, now or at any time in the
> future, this document about which you have just lied to them. One thousand
> dollars!<<

So, simply on David Irving's word, we are to accept that no such
blueprints exist?

_This_ you call a "conviction"?

And for _this_ we should pay $21 to some unkown outfit in England?

What evidence do you, personally, have that this incident took place and
that Irving is right about the blueprints, Hoffman?

Time to put up or shut up.

(He'll run and hide, as usual, folks...)

JGB

=====================================================================
Jeffrey G. Brown                                   jeff_brown@pol.com
 "What's going to happen?"   "Something wonderful..."   -- '2010'


Article 19308 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: In Dramatic Confrontation, Irving Convicts Lipstadt of Lying
Date: 22 Nov 1994 07:33:00 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 74
Message-ID: <3as6rc$1c0@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References:   <3apheo$41b@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

 wrote:

# Danny Keren wrote:

## Hoffman, I take it that you have no response to my quote from Irving's speech,
## which proves the man is either hallucinating, insane, or plain lying? I remind
## what the quote was about. Irving quotes Eichmann as saying that Heydrich told
## him about Hitler's order for the >physical destruction of the Jews< (direct
## quote). Irving tries to wriggle out of this by making the infantile claim that
## Hitler was really talking about the >destruction of Judaism<. However, Irving
## later quotes Eichmann as saying that Riechfuherer-SS Himmler had actually
## ordered that the Russian anti-tank ditches were to be used for disposing of the
## bodies. If  >Judaism< was to be destroyed, would this produce so many corpses
## that one would have to use anti-tank ditches to bury them in? How odd. It does
## look like Irving has a few loose screws, doesn't it? Care to address this
## matter?
 
# I surely will. 

When?

# You will recall that I challenged you as follows: >>Nevertheless, I request that
# you address this remarkable development. The woman who has been licensed by the
# media and the academy to actually create categories of historical
# nomenclature...has been caught in an egregious lie. As you and I both know,
# there are no such # blueprints< for Zyklon B pellet holes at Auschwitz.<<

# To which Danny Keren replied:

## Frankly, I don't know that. I have not seen *all* the blueprints.<<

# Which blueprints have you not seen, Dr. Keren? Surely you have seen the
# blueprints in Pressacs book, which is the most complete collection of Auschwitz
# blueprints available.

Weren't many other discovered since? By Prof. Van-Pelt and
Prof. Fleming, for instance?

# Keren wrote:

## I have seen in Pressacs book the photographs of the gas chambers of one of the
## Kremas, and he marks in them the small windows, equipped with shutters, via
## which the Zyklon was inserted. The aerial photographs of Kremas II and III are
## there, and one can see the location of the holes through which the Zyklon was
## inserted; I recall that Pressac adds that one of the openings can still be seen,
## although most of the roof was dynamited - don't have the book with me, will have
## to check on that.
  
# Again, my congratulations for your having sought to distract our attention away
# from Lipstadts claim about blueprints and onto photographs. I believe I once saw
# a similar maneuver in a three-card monte game.
 
## Keren writes: Another possibility is that she confused the photographs with
## blueprints.<<

# Her eyesight is the culprit then? There is no trace of deception or imposture,
# it is all just confusion<< on Lipstadts part. But since Dr. Lipstadt claims to
# be an historian, and an authority on the revisionist school  (oops, I mean
# denier<<) school of history, is not the confusion<< which you so
# magnanimously ascribe to her, at the very least a token of manifest
# incompetence? How responsible is it of her to insist to an audience of
# university students, in a speech purportedly dedicated to extirpating fraud,
# that there is a blueprint showing Zyklon B pellet holes for a homicidal gas
# chamber when no such blueprint has ever been produced!

Suppose that she indeed made that mistake. What did she have to
gain? Blueprints are not stronger evidence than photographs, which
prove the structure was built, not only designed.

I repeat that the main point is that the documents prove the Kremas
had gas chambers in them. This is what counts.


-Danny Keren.


Article 19310 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Hoffman's ignorance (again)
References:  <1994Nov21.023734.23567@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> 
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1994Nov26.001634.9993@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Sat, 26 Nov 94 00:16:34 GMT

In article  hoffman2nd@delphi.com writes:
>Ken Mcvay  writes:
> 
>>Ernst Zu"ndel, for instance, was not arrested for denying the
>>Holocaust. 
> 
>Here Mr. McVay is playing a very trivial game of Talmudic disputation. He

Interesting - I've never read the Talmud.. I guess this is a trait I
somehow acquired through digital association with Joosh uers?

>is saying that because Ernst Zundel was charged under the Canadian law
>against "spreading false news" that therefore the whole prosecution
>against Zundel was not based on his having denied the "Holocaust." He
>was not arrested because of it and was not tried because of it.

Mr. Hoffman continues to assert an untruth. Mr. Zu"ndel was _not_ 
charged with Holocaust denial. There is, again, _no_ such law in
Canada. Never has been, likely never will be. 

>Mr. McVay, come to think of it, you are so stupid that I am now in fact
>delighted that the powers-that-be in Canada have nominated you to be
>point man against the revisionists on the Internet.

Golly, Mr. Hoffman - just when did they do this? Was it before I began
my activity here, three years ago, or was it after the press decided I
was worth a column here and there? Can you name these "powers that be"
for me? (When is the election to be held, Mr. Hoffman?)

>Over and again, Crown prosecutor Peter Griffiths stated in his trial
>remarks, address to the jury and sentence recommendation, that Mr.
>Zundel was a criminal who have denied the "Holocaust." You are talking
>out of your hat, Mr. McVay in a desperate attempt to extricate yourself
>from your flat-earthist notion that Canada has free speech for revisionists.

Mr. Hoffman now plays word games. First, he claimed that a Canadian
law existed which made denial of the Holocaust illegal. When I pointed
out that this was flatly incorrect, and that the laws that _have_ been
used to charge the likes of Zu"ndel were overturned by the Supreme
Court, Mr. Hoffman changed his tune and now claims that revisionists
(Arno Mayer, I guess - Zu"ndel is a denier, not a revisionist, who
makes his living peddling hate Nazi literature world-wide) have been
outlawed. Make up your mind, Mr. Hoffman: precisely _what_ is it that
you claim is illegal here?

>What has just happened to Doug Collins and John Ball proves you dead wrong.
>They have been charged in a complaint under a new law rigged in your own
>province of B.C. of which, I suppose you must, to salvage yourself, claim
>you have no knowledge of, or you will pretend it is not a law against
>revisionists because it does not mention revisionists by name even though
>two revisionists have been charged under its provisions.

I am well aware of the _provincial_ law you mention. I am also well
aware of the fact that it has not been tested by the courts, and
firmly believe it will be tossed out of the Supreme Court as contrary
to the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. (Much like
California's Prop. 187, which is also likely to be rejected by the
courts. The fact that it now exists is meaningless with regard to the
legal standing it may hold in the real world).

>I have seen such dissembling all over alt.revisionism by dishonest
>exterminationists trying to frantically slip out of being convicted
>of bold-faced lying. You are one such bold-faced liar.

Gosh, Dan Gannon's been calling me a liar, and a VILE LITTLE LIAR at
that, for years. Like Mr. Gannon, it's a clear case of pot/kettle
/black. You, Mr. Hoffman, have yet to provide a shred of evidence to
support your allegations regarding my being a "police agent," or to
support your allegation that a Canadian church pays me a salary.
Unless and until you are prepared to back up your spittle (your BSI
still stands at 0.75) with facts, it is clear who is doing the lying
here.

>>publishing false news," which the Supreme Court of Canada has deemed
>>unconstitutional, based upon the Canadian Charter of Rights.
> 
>Why did the Court rule this? Because revisionists, with very little help
>from civil libertarians in Canada, spent hundreds of thousands of dollars
>donated from people's pensions and life savings and in the face of villification
>from the  media and Wiesenthal Center and the Canadian Jewish Congress, and
>bucking the combined might of the Jewish lobby in Canada which is backed
>by the personal fortunes of two billionaire families, the Seagrams and Belzbergs
>as well as the government of Canada, won the case FOR ERNST ZUNDEL. This was

The Court ruled this because it was true. Simple, eh?

>no thanks to the likes of useful idiots like yourself who serve these

Thanks for the compliment - coming from you, being deemed useful is a
real treat. Nice to know I'm doing some good (which you confirm with
every nasty accusation... there always seems to be a direct
correlation here between the level of usefulness of those refuting
Holocaust denial and those who would re-write history in their efforts
to cleanse Hitler and his criminal compatriots).

>thought cop groups by criminalizing revisionist dissent with personnel files
>that "track" and "hunt" (Eye Weekly) revisionists. Revisionists are still

It has indeed been rewarding tracking and archiving your material, Mr.
Hoffman. It gives me great pleasure to see to it that anyone wanting
an example of the true nature of Holocaust denial will be able to
retrieve your vomitus for years to come.

>proscribed in Canada as the cases of Ball and Collins in your own backyard
>clearly show. Yet at the time Ball and Collins were being charged for their
>revisionist writings you were bold-faced lying on the Internet and claiming
>there were no laws in Canada against revisionists. If there are no laws

There are no laws in Canada against revisionists.

>in Canada against revisionists, is it a "coincidence" that Ball and Collins
>are being prosecuted because they have criticized aspects of the Shoah
>Biz racket? Who the heck are you trying to kid with circuit "reasoning"?
>Presumably, no one but yourself.

They are probably being prosecuted because many people are offended by
their rhetoric. That does not mean the prosecutions will stand,
however (I don't think they have a snowball's chance in hell of
holding up before the higher courts).

>>So you see, Mr. Hoffman, setting aside your ignorance of Canadian
>>law for the moment, even those restrictive laws which _were_
>>employed can no longer be employed.
 
>Come down off the space shuttle there cowpoke. Better get your Prozac pr
>prescription refilled. Repeat after me (it's therapy, trust me): Doug
>Collins. John Ball. Criminal complaint lodged against same. Re:
>revisionist writings. Got it?

Sorry, Charley. When they charge Arno Mayer, I might "get it."
-- 
"Mr XXXXXXX is obviously Jewish and a living  example of why the Nazis 
tried to remove Jews from Europe and short of that, into concentration 
camps for the duration of the war."        (Fritz Berg, June 26, 1994)
                         ==== Nizhor ====


Article 19313 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!uknet!festival!hwcee!pc09.cen.hw.ac.uk!cendbj
From: cendbj@clust.hw.ac.uk (David Johnston)
Subject: Re: In Dramatic Confrontation, Irving Convicts Lipstadt of Lying
Message-ID: 
Lines: 13
Sender: news@cee.hw.ac.uk (News Administrator)
Organization: Heriot-Watt University
X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev A]
References:  
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 11:21:26 GMT

In article  hoffman2nd@delphi.com writes:

>DAVID IRVING ACTION REPORT.   SUPPLEMENT DATED NOVEMBER 11, 1994
> 
> (Ever so slightly biased report deleted)

Gosh, I never realised what a wonderful chap David Irving was until I read 
that. I'm now convinced everything he writes comes from a totally impartial 
viewpoint. What a man! What a writer! What a prick!

David Johnston
Heriot-Watt University
Edinburgh


Article 19320 of alt.revisionism:
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From: anny@ix.netcom.com (Annie Alpert)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: In Dramatic Confrontation, Irving Convicts Lipstadt of Lying
Date: 22 Nov 1994 21:33:02 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 40
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3ato2e$58u@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>
References:  <3alusa$b37@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>  <3aop19$l4b@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: ix-nwk4-09.ix.netcom.com

In  hoffman2nd@delphi.com writes: 

>
>Annie Alpert  writes:
> 
>>At this point we have only Mr. Irving's word that Dr. Lipstadt said 
>>soemthing that was untrue.  Judging from the tone of his article I 
doubt 
>>that he con be considered an entirely objective observer.  He was 
>>looking for trouble and he would have found it one way or another.
 
Mr. Hoffman responds:

>Thanks for your classic "Holocaust" cultism. It looks as if you are 
saying
>that since Irving was "looking for trouble" Lipstadt obliged him by 
lying
>about gas chamber blueprints. What a crock.

Nice try at restating my position, sir, but there is more crockery there 
than meets the eye.

We only have Mr. Irving's word that Dr. Lipstadt said there were 
'blueprints' of gas chambers.  We also have Mr. Irving's word that this 
is a lie. I know that Dr. Lipstadt mentions Pressac's book in her 
lectures and Pressac certainly has a number of diagrams in his book 
"Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers" that could be called 
'blueprints'--for instance on page 431 there is a drawing titled 
"Recapitulatory drawing for Krematorien II & III" which is part of a 
plan for Auschwitz-Birkenau with designations for 'gas-tight doors' 
(gasdichtetur) and 'gas chamber' (Vergassungkeller).

Irving surely knows about those drawings.  Now you do too.

He was looking for a fight to boost his ego.  Big deal.
-- 
* * * * * * * * * 
Annie Alpert

I've found a new home on NETCOM.  EMAIL me here if you like.


Article 19326 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Re: Put up or shut up, Mr. Hoffman (v 1.02, Round 3)
References:  <1994Nov20.231422.22266@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> 
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1994Nov26.131540.13266@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Sat, 26 Nov 94 13:15:40 GMT

In article  hoffman2nd@delphi.com writes:

>K. McVay writes:
 
>>Here, Mr. Hoffman addresses his ignorance of Canadian law; in
>>particular, his complete lack of knowledge about the Supreme Court of
>>Canada judgements with regard to Mr. Keegstra and Mr. Zu"ndel. Given
>>his claim of a background as a professional journalist, his assertions
>>in the face of such abysmal ignorance are telling.
 
>As I have repeatedly pointed out, the fact that the revisionist legal
>team of Doug Christe and Keltie Zubko with the help of revisionists
>pilloried in the press as monsters, demons and >crypto-Nazis< won decisions
>against Canada's provincial judgements against Zundel and Keegstra, in no
>way suggests, implies or connotes as you so deceptively wish to state,
>that prosecution of revisionists is not legally viable in Canada. There

Prosecution of revisionists is not legally viable in Canada. 
The record is very clear. (That it has been tried, using archaic law,
is also clear, as is the failure of such attempts in law.)

>has never been a need for a specific law against revisionists, which would
>give away the game a bit too blatantly. Rather, euphemistic statutes with
>words like hate, false news  and contempt have been and are
>being used. I am fully aware of both Supreme Court judgments and I am
>equally aware of the on-going prosecution of a newspaper journalist and
>a revisionist researcher; neither of which have been impeded by Canadas
>Supreme Court rulings.

Perhaps that is because the provincial government doesn't want to accept
reality, Mr. Hoffman. However, whether it does or not, it will learn
the lessons offered by the SCC soon enough.

As Mr. Hoffman is familiar with the judgements in question, perhaps he
will now avail himself of the opportunity to respond to my request
that he provide his analysis of them here...

>>Mr. Hoffman's ignorance of the Supreme Court rulings mirrors his
>>ignorance of the Canadian Charter of Rights, about which he _also_
>>knows nothing.
 
>The Charter of Rights was ruled by Judge Hugh Locke as having no bearing on the
>propriety of the prosecution or conviction of Ernst Zundel. Zundel was  put on

Judge Locke's opinion obviously carried little weight with the Supreme
Court of Canada, which clearly and strongly disagreed with such
in its judgement.

>trial twice, after the Charter of Rights went into effect. Only after putting
>Mr. Zundel in jail, nearly bankrupting him and subjecting him to bombings and

Nearly bankrupting him? As I recall, Zu"ndel loved all the attention,
and took advantage of it to parade himself before the media... once
carrying a cross, I believe. I also seem to recall a comment he is
said to have made about the millions he made as a direct result of all
that attention. (Perhaps someone out there can shed more light upon
that one?)

>mob assaults as well as on-going media libel,  more than six years after the
>initial prosecution, Zundel was vindicated because he fought back with all of
>his considerable organizational and oratorical skills. Ask him he feels that he
>may still be prosecuted under a different Canadian law from the >>false news
>charge<< and he will tell you, yes. There is that constant threat. It is

What Mr. Zu"ndel believes is of no consequence with regard to the
ability of some jurisdiction to successfully pursue charges under the
"false news" statute, given the SCC judgement.

>happening in Western Canada now. Moreover, White racists have been arrested and
>put under judicial gag orders because of politically incorrect speech in Ontario
>recently. One is still under such a gag. My book on the first state show trial
>of Zundel, >>The Great Holocaust Trial<< was banned and seized from the mails in
>Canada. Canada is not free for revisionist speech. The fact that you are trying
>to dispute this, in the face of overwhelming documentary evidence, is indicative
>of  the dimensions of your mental midgetry.

Here we seem to reach the core of Mr. Hoffman's malaise - Canada would
not permit his book to cross the border. Given Mr. Hoffman's penchant
for earning his living off of the pain created by Holocaust denial, we
now see him upset by Canada's refusal to permit him to increase his
income within its borders. Perhaps Mr. Hoffman should ask Mr. Zu"ndel
to publish his book for him in Canada, thus neatly solving the
problem - of course, Mr. Hoffman would then have to share the
proceeds..
 
>>Mr. Collins denied the Holocaust only a few weeks ago, in the
>>Vancouver Provence... last I heard, he was still walking about,
>>writing his reprehensible views for the North Shore News, rather than
>>languishing in jail for doing so... Perhaps Mr. Hoffman will explain
>>that, given his distorted view of Canadian law...
 
>Gladly. Mr. Collins has been charged at the behest of the Canadian Jewish
>Congress. If it is a cause for celebration of Canadas >>freedom for revisionist
>speech<< that he is not yet in jail, then perhaps one can see the extent of
>Mr. McVays definition of what constitutes freedom, since Mr. Collins is
>presently charged for criminal trial for directing >>contempt<< at the Master
>Race  (>>Jews<<) because he attacked their hate propaganda against Germans, in

Master race? Do we detect a touch of vitriol here? Is Mr. Hoffman's
agenda really anti-semitism, cloaked within a hypocritical campaign on
behalf of "free speech?" How, one might well wonder, did Mr. Hoffman
reach the conclusion that Jews claim to be a "master race?"

Is this the sort of writing that cost Mr. Hoffman his job with the AP?
No bloody wonder they wouldn't tolerate him!

[...]

>Perhaps >>suggests<< is too mild, for Mr. McVay long ago ceased to be a
>challenging debating partner. His standard modus operandi is to 1. Make a
>ridiculous statement. 

As in "McVay is a police agent?"
As in "McVay receives a salary from a Canadian church?"

>2. Stand corrected by yours truly. 

As in your dismal failure to support either of the above assertions?

>3. McVay responds to
>the correction with a barge full of bluster, uninspired attempts at satire and
>regurgitation of the initial ridiculous statement. 

As in "McVay is the Man, the Fuzz?"

>4. I then cut him to pieces
>and publicly convict him as an idiot. 

By making unsupportable statements about my income?
By equating the archiving of UseNet posts with police activity?

>5. McVay rejoins by repeating all the same
>blunders in his plodding, workman-like manner only turning the VOLUME up on
>them.

As in your continuing failure to produce evidence to support your
assertions? 

As in your continuing failure to provide users here with your analysis
of the Supreme Court judgements?
 
>Ho-hum. Keep it up Ken, your numberless fans in the Spartacist League for
>Smashing the Foul, Deviant, Revisionist Dissenters are cheering wildly.

I was unaware of your deviance, Mr. Hoffman. How does it manifest
itself? (What, pray tell, is the Spartacist League?)
 
>Meanwhile, I  am heading over to the Irving-Lipstadt thread, where I am going to
>have even more fun with your mentor Danny Keren than I have been having toying
>with you.

Is that what you call it, Mr. Hoffman?
 
>Says Rabbi Abraham Cooper, associate dean of the (Simon) Wiesenthal Center:  >It
>may be time for the FCC to place a cop on the information superhighway.<<
>  --Home Office Computing, November, 1994, p. 18.

Since my activity here predates Mr. Cooper's remarks by several years,
I trust you are not trying to imply that I am that "cop," Mr. Hoffman,
or that I agree with the rabbi?

>>>You can judge for yourself who's using the fascist methods.<< --David Irving.

Ah, yes, this from the man who jokes about "one-man gas chambers" for
the Jews, and who openly espouses his racism, and his desire to lead
England into a fascist future....

>Michael A. Hoffman II (hoffman2nd@delphi.com).  Wiswell Ruffin House. POJBox
>236, Dresden, New York 14441. International publishers and distributors of
>revisionist  books and videotapes. Send U.S. $3.00 for catalog.

Still making your living off "Shoah business," eh, Mr. Hoffman? It
seems clear your problem with Canada is more financial than moral.

Who owns Wiswell Ruffin House, Mr. Hoffman?

-- 
"Mr XXXXXXX is obviously Jewish and a living  example of why the Nazis 
tried to remove Jews from Europe and short of that, into concentration 
camps for the duration of the war."        (Fritz Berg, June 26, 1994)
                         ==== Nizkor ====


Article 19331 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uunet!world!wmcguire
From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Subject: Re: In Dramatic Confrontation, Irving Convicts Lipstadt of Lying
Message-ID: 
Sender: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die
References:  <3alusa$b37@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>  <3apheo$41b@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> 
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 09:58:46 GMT
Lines: 74

In article , hoffman2nd@delphi.com wrote:

//Lipstadt has traveled over the world demanding that revisionists be silenced and
//censored.  She traveled to Australia and argued on behalf of David Irving being
//banned from the entire continent.  She refuses to debate. When personally
//confronted by Irving on the blueprint, she did not say, >I will check it.
//Perhaps I am wrong.< Instead, she called security. Deborah Lipstadt is typical
//of many exterminationists. She combines the mentality of an Inquisitor with the
//integrity of an Ilya Ehrenberg.
//
//She is on videotape perpetrating a hoax on students and instead of repudiating
//her, and demanding that she furnish the blueprint or apologize to the students
//she cheated and the historian she slandered, you invent excuses for her.

//No wonder the rabbis want to make revisionism illegal. It is the only way to
//salvage the Lipstadts of the world.

This is a pretty amazing thread, from the original Irving
material to here.

Am I mistaken, or has Deborah Lipstadt made a complete ass of
herself? And are some of the anti-revisionsists here foolishly
making asses of themselves by trying to defend her with the usual
verbal abuse and ridiculous sophistic doubletalk?

I've read enough Irving and enough Lipstadt to know that Irving
could intellectually crush Lipstadt in a debate on just about any
subject--he obviously possesses the much more powerful mind,
regardless of whether you agree with his conclusions about World
War II. He is a major historian.

Some of the more infantile anti-revisionists, who are all
emotionally pumped up and ignorant about current historical
writing, will deny this. We just saw Barry Shein dismiss Dmitri
Volkogonov as a "moron," for instance, because he expressed views
about Lenin and Leninism which upset Barry's prejudices and
preconceptions.

What I am trying to figure out now is why Lipstadt would so
endanger her credibility by making false assertions about these
alleged blueprints. I am waiting to see if anyone here can
clarify the matter, as opposed to obfuscating it with verbal
abuse and diversionary sophistry. Please post the GIFs of the
blueprints so that we can examine them.

I believe the Holocaust essentially occurred, and that Jews were
systematically exterminated in gas chambers. For the life of me
what I can't understand is why people like Lipstadt have to
resort to such sleazy tactics to defend this historical truth.
They seem to be gradually slipping into ever deeper shit by
making all sorts of mistakes.

And is it true that Lipstadt has advocated silencing and
censoring revisionists? If this is the case, she is just another
tiresome Fascist, Bolshevist, or Stalinist (pick your term) in a
new guise. She is a much greater enemy of civilization than David
Irving. People who want to legislate history are severely fucked,
and there is no way in the world that eventually they are not
going to be shaken off by the essentially libertarian character
of contemporary Western (and especially American) culture. These
unpleasant zealots have a remarkable genius for turning the
controversy about the Holocaust into a more urgent debate about
protecting free thought and free speech. They are pathetic.

If there is another side to this story about the Irving/Lipstadt
confrontation, I wish someone would post it. As the matter
stands, Lipstadt was screwed, blued and tattooed. Her shrill
response to being intellectually challenged was fully compatible
with the shrill tone of her book, which barely rose above the
level of excited ADL pamphleteering. If Michael Stein is no
Christopher Hitchens, then Deborah Lipstadt is no Arno Mayer.

(This is outside the Mayer thread with Stein, but I couldn't
resist commenting.)


Article 19332 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu!miavx1!bpharmon
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: In Dramatic Confrontation, Irving Convicts Lipstadt of Lying
Message-ID: <1994Nov23.061547.34601@miavx1>
From: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov)
Date: 23 Nov 94 06:15:47 -0500
References:  <3alusa$b37@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>   
 
Organization: Miami University
Lines: 30

In article , wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) writes:
> In article , hoffman2nd@delphi.com wrote:
> 
> I've read enough Irving and enough Lipstadt to know that Irving
> could intellectually crush Lipstadt in a debate on just about any
> subject--he obviously possesses the much more powerful mind,
> regardless of whether you agree with his conclusions about World
> War II. He is a major historian.

What?  

where did you get this from?  there isn't a major historian 
in the world who's saidd a good thing about Irving. 

The only thing I can remember him being famous for, besides 
Holocaust 'revisionism' was him getting sued for a completely
twisted account of a convoy that was cut to ribbons by 
German U Boats in WWII.  

The former captain of the convoy sued him and won.  

I haven't read any of Lipstadt's stuff, but I can assure that
Irving has had many credibility problems _before_ he ever
entered into Holocaust revisionism.

=======================================================================
Brian Harmon         "We are most unfair to God: we do not allow
Miami University	   	him to sin.." 
Oxford, Ohio 45056  			-- Friedrich Nietzsche
--------------bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu--------------------------


Article 19334 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!uunet!world!wmcguire
From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Subject: Re: Canadian Journalist Prosecuted for Criticizing Schindlers List
Message-ID: 
Sender: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die
References:   <1994Nov22.005410.1468@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 12:14:22 GMT
Lines: 77

In article <1994Nov22.005410.1468@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>,
kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay) wrote:

//I am still waiting, Mr. Hoffman, for your analysis of the two
//Supreme Court of Canada judgements relating to this issue. Either
//you will have to admit your ignorance of these judgements, and their
//effect upon such charges, or you will have to display your superior
//knowledge of Canadian jurisprudence and demonstrate how such
//charges, if brought, will not be dismissed by the court, given the
//SCC precidents.

Poor McVay can't see the forest for the trees. It's obvious that
elements of the Jewish establishment are trying to suppress free
thought and free speech in Canada concerning the Holocaust. Their
activities are an abomination, and your legalistic noodling is
entirely beside the point.

You've turned yourself into a propaganda robot for these
repressive authoritarians--a robot with its hand held out
expectantly for money--and so the outrageousness of their efforts
at censorship is entirely lost on you. Is it any surprise that
some people have begun to associate you with the thought police?

Every move that Holocaust cultists make to legislate history and
censor free speech is only going to generate hostility against
the cultists and sympathy for the intellectual rebels who
challenge them. I can guarantee it. The world, and especially
Americans, love subversives who challenge oppressive authorities
and sacred cows. The thought police are setting themselves up for
a great fall.

Americans are no more likely to endure being bullied
intellectually by Holocaustodians than are Palestinians going to
sit still for being intellectually and physically oppressed by
Israelis. There is no way one can make these sorts of repressive
regimes stick. People are much too ornery and independent. They
shake them off.

You've got to be really flat on your feet and unbearably dull to
make the "revisionists" look sexy and exciting. But people who
make a career of defending the round earth theory of the world
are usually not James Deans.

Btw, how did you come into contact with Eli Rosenbaum? Why did
Eli Rosenbaum send you documents? Did you request them? Or did he
take the initiative and contact you?

Have you ever heard of the Hatch Act?

Do you know who hired Neil Sher after he was disgraced at OSI for
concealing evidence that exonerated Demjanjuk? AIPAC--the
American Israel Public Affairs Committee. Funny how one just
can't escape all these intimate connections between the Holocaust
lobby and the Israeli lobby.

(Stein seems to have made himself scarce lately--I understand he
has a very busy schedule--and I am getting bored.)

Oh, another question, Mr. McVay: did the OSI release the
documents which revealed its dishonesty in the Demjanjuk case
because of its high ethical standards, or because it was
embarrassed and forced into doing so because it was found out by
the diligent research of Demjanjuk's relatives?

Has it ever bothered you that the Marxist Holocaust denial
practiced on the left in this century has vastly exceeded the
Nazi Holocaust denial on the right? If not, why not? Why all the
obsession with only one narrow class of victims in this century?
What's your agenda, McVay, and why?

Have you paid much attention to the victims in Bosnia and Rwanda
lately? I very much doubt it.

Once I finish with Stein, and then perhaps give all my attention
to Shein for awhile (that should be a blast), then maybe you and
I can settle down and have a real debate without any
distractions.


Article 19336 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uunet!world!wmcguire
From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Subject: Re: Hoffman's lies about Canadian law.
Message-ID: <8opqk0yNUQ0Q073yn@world.std.com>
Sender: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die
References: <3a45gu$4m4@access1.digex.net>   <1994Nov17.212852.809@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> 
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 12:58:48 GMT
Lines: 43

In article , hoffman2nd@delphi.com wrote:

//                                                   Folks, keep a
//close eye on the dishonesty of McVay. What he is saying is that denying
//the "holocaust" in Canada is not illegal because there is no specific law
//honest enough to make it illegal. So what? Canada uses other laws to
//criminalize revisionism.

I think some of us are beginning to read McVay loud and clear:
all his sophistical doubletalk can't conceal his real agenda any
longer.

Elements of the Jewish establishment in Canada are trying to
crush free thought and free speech about the Holocaust by
whatever legal devices they can lay their hands on. That's the
main point here. McVay can't see it, but all the libertarians
here will.

I once entertained the notion of moving to Canada--some of my
ancestors are from there. Since learning about Canada's medieval
attitudes and policies towards free thought and free speech, my
respect for Canada has been significantly diminished. I'm quite
happy to be living in America.

Canadians should pay more attention to Thomas Jefferson and less
attention to some of the crypto-Leninists who think they can
legislate history through shyster legal manipulations. Jefferson
was by far the more enlightened visionary on these matters. Let
the truth get sorted out in the process of free and open debate.

If groups like the Simon Wiesenthal Center, which are closely
tied to the OSI, attempt to censor the Internet (as they have
already shown every sign of desiring to do), I think they are
going to discover just how strongly Americans feel about a heavy
authoritarian hand attempting to control free speech,
particularly on political and historical matters. Maybe this
stuff would fly in the former Soviet Union, but not in the U.S.

You'd think that if these groups were truly confident about their
historical data, that they wouldn't be so nervous about letting
the data speak for itself. Their peculiar skittishness about free
and open debate betrays weakness and doubt on their part, and
only whets the appetite of the skeptics.


Article 19337 of alt.revisionism:
Xref: oneb alt.revisionism:19337 alt.bonehead.joel-furr:304
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.mathworks.com!zombie.ncsc.mil!news.duke.edu!usenet
From: jfurr@acpub.duke.edu (Joel K. Furr)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.bonehead.joel-furr,alt.internet.media-coverage
Subject: Re: Hoffman's lies about Canadian law.
Date: 23 Nov 1994 09:10:55 -0500
Organization: Duke University - Birthplace of USENET
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <3avihf$r3r@news.duke.edu>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: soc4.acpub.duke.edu

wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) wrote:
>You'd think that if these groups were truly confident about their
>historical data, that they wouldn't be so nervous about letting
>the data speak for itself. Their peculiar skittishness about free
>and open debate betrays weakness and doubt on their part, and
>only whets the appetite of the skeptics.

Wayne, when the "open debate" consists of Holocaust revisionists going 
before a talk show audience and making bold and totally false claims, 
what is the other side supposed to do?  Rifle through a box of files and 
then hold up a document for the cameras to zoom in on that proves the 
claim was bushwah?  That's the sort of "free debate with the Holocaust 
revisionists" that y'all would seem to want: you tell insane lies, the 
audience goes "ooh!" and the other side, if they even dignified your side 
by showing up, is left unable to do anything besides call you liars or, 
as above, start rifling through the files.

You're not in this for free and open _debate_.  You're in this for 
sensationalistic claims that the other side ALWAYS proves wrong, leaving 
you free to make wild accusations about their funding sources and then 
going on to make still more claims.

If you took the debunkers on in any kind of standard debate, using 
standard debating rules, you'd score essentially zero points; debate 
judges aren't overly impressed with invented evidence and unanswered 
rebuttals.


Article 19338 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!EU.net!uunet!world!wmcguire
From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Subject: Re: Put up or shut up, Mr. Hoffman (v 1.02, Round 3)
Message-ID: 
Sender: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die
References: <1994Nov15.130004.8751@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>  <1994Nov20.231422.22266@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> 
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 14:12:57 GMT
Lines: 31

In article , hoffman2nd@delphi.com wrote:

//Meanwhile, I  am heading over to the Irving-Lipstadt thread, where I am going to
//have even more fun with your mentor Danny Keren than I have been having toying
//with you.

I've got to admit, you really cleaned Ken's clock in this thread.
But that's not much of an achievement. McVay's much more a
propaganda robot than a creative thinker. He'd do quite well in
an official position with the ADL or some government
"information" ministry--perhaps Israel's.

Regarding Lipstadt: is Irving quite on firm ground when he claims
that Lipstadt has come down on the side of the Holocaust
Leninists, i.e, Holocaust censors? Can you or he document this
charge? If this is true, she's dead in the water as far as her
credibility goes.

I knew instantly from the first few pages of her book that she
couldn't stand in the ring for more than a few rounds with any
half-decent "revisionist" or revisionist, even if she were right
and her opponent was wrong. She quite simply lacks the mental
tools to engage in vigorous debate, and she is much too much
controlled by her tribal gonads. That's always the kiss of
death--too much tribalism in your bloodstream. Clouds the brain
wickedly. Gets you spluttering and flapping your arms every
time--squawk! squawk! squawk! The more they squawk, the more you
laugh, and the more they squawk, the more you laugh....

I'm just marking time here until Mike Stein picks up his side of
the Arno Mayer thread....


Article 19341 of alt.revisionism:
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From: anny@ix.netcom.com (Annie Alpert)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: In Dramatic Confrontation, Irving Convicts Lipstadt of Lying
Date: 23 Nov 1994 18:12:05 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 36
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3b00ll$1vm@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>
References:  <3alusa$b37@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>  <3apheo$41b@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>  
NNTP-Posting-Host: ix-nwk4-09.ix.netcom.com

In  wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne 
McGuire) writes: 


>And is it true that Lipstadt has advocated silencing and
>censoring revisionists? 

When I heard her lecture at Kean College in Elizabeth New Jersey last 
year, she advocated no such thing.  She said specifically that deniers 
have a right to speak but that they should be rebutted with facts--in 
fact she said that in her book, in case you haven't read it....

"Let this point not be misunderstood.  The deniers have the absolute 
right to stand on any street corner and spread their calumnies.  They 
have the right to publish their articles and books and hold their 
gatherings.  But free speech does not guarentee them the right to be 
treated as the "other" people in a legitamate debate.  Nor does it 
guarentee them space on op-ed pages or time on television or radio 
shows.  Most importantly it does not call for people such as Chomsky to 
stand by them and thereby commend their views to the public" (Denying 
the Holocaust, p 17)

"I reiterate that I am not advocating the muzzling of the deniers.  They 
have the right to free speech, however abhorrent.  However, they are
using that right not as a sheild, as it was intended by the 
Constitution, but as a sword.  There is a qualitative difference between 
barring someone's right to free speech and providing himn or her with a 
platform from which to deliver a message.  Quick to exploit this 
situation, the deniers have engaged in a  calculated manipulation of two 
principals dear to Americans: free speech and the search for historical 
truth." (ibid, p 26) 
-- 
* * * * * * * * * 
Annie Alpert

I've found a new home on NETCOM.  EMAIL me here if you like.


Article 19342 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: ai433@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (John Baglow)
Subject: McGuire's Anti-Semitism Revealed For All To See
Message-ID: 
Sender: ai433@freenet3.carleton.ca (John Baglow)
Reply-To: ai433@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (John Baglow)
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References: <8opqk0yNUQ0Q073yn@world.std.com> <3a45gu$4m4@access1.digex.net>   <1994Nov17.212852.809@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> 
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 19:10:25 GMT
Lines: 56


In a previous article, wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) says:

>I think some of us are beginning to read McVay loud and clear:
>all his sophistical doubletalk can't conceal his real agenda any
>longer.

And what agenda is that? McVay made two observations: first, that there is
no Canadian law specifically making Holocaust-denial a crime; secondly,
that other laws used against the likes of Keegstra and Zu"ndel have been
ultimately unsuccessfully used. These are facts. So tell us, McGuire: what
is McVay's agenda? And, BTW--what is yours?




>Elements of the Jewish establishment in Canada are trying to
>crush free thought and free speech about the Holocaust by
>whatever legal devices they can lay their hands on. That's the
>main point here. McVay can't see it, but all the libertarians
>here will.

"The Jewish establishment." Here we go: McGuire's anti-semitic agenda is
beginning to reveal itself. Names some names, McGuire. Who is the "Jewsih
establishment" in Canada? Who among them are "trying to crush free
speech"? Why, incidentally, is nazi-motivated hate propaganda deserving of
tolerance? I like your reference to "libertarians", BTW. Dan Gannon calles
himself a "libertarian". Coincidence?


>Canadians should pay more attention to Thomas Jefferson and less
>attention to some of the crypto-Leninists who think they can
>legislate history through shyster legal manipulations.

In other words: the "Jewish establishment" = "crypto-Leninists". Sounds a
bit like the nazi theory of "Judeobolshevism", doesn't it"? And, folks,
note the use of the word "shyster". McGuire's mask is slipping a bit, here...


>You'd think that if these groups were truly confident about their
>historical data, that they wouldn't be so nervous about letting
>the data speak for itself.

The data does speak for itself. What concerns many of us is the deliberate
use of Holocaust-denial crap to inflict pain upon the Jewish community as
well as to attempt to whitewash nazism in order to make it just another
political option.

You stand revealed to all, McGuire, as an anti-semite. Is it really
McGuire, BTW? Or Carto?


--
John Baglow			"Listen to the fool's reproach! it is a
				 kingly title!"
					--William Blake			


Article 19344 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: McGuire and Irving (was: Re: In Dramatic Confrontation, Irving Con
Date: 23 Nov 1994 16:42:02 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 54
Message-ID: <3avrcq$gnh@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References:  <3apheo$41b@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>  
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

Wayne McGuire  wrote:

# I've read enough Irving and enough Lipstadt to know that Irving
# could intellectually crush Lipstadt in a debate on just about any
# subject--he obviously possesses the much more powerful mind,
# regardless of whether you agree with his conclusions about World
# War II. He is a major historian.

A "major historian"?

It was posted here that he was convicted of slandering
and lying in his books, even before he became a Holocaust
denier. No one here denied this. 

How credible does this make Irving?

I posted an excerpt from his talk at the IHR conference. Irving
seems to be somewhat mentally retarded. You see, he quotes
Eichmann as writing that Hitler ordered the "physical
extermination of the Jews". Then he (Irving) says that maybe 
Hitler really meant only the "destruction of Judaism". Then he 
adds that Himmler, who reported this to Heydrich, told him that
he passed the order on to Globocnik, and told him to use
Soviet anti-tank ditches to dispose of the bodies.

So, Hitler and Himmler obviously meant murder, which would
produce so many corpses that these anti-tank ditches would
be needed to dispose of them. And Irving says it may have
been only the "destruction of Judaism" they were talking
about.

The man is either retarded, or insane, or plain lying. But
only a really stupid person would make up such a stupid lie.

And you have a good opinion on this person? 

Irving gave wide publicity to the "Leuchter report", and 
said it was an "important scientific work". He wrote that
Leuchter went to Auschwitz with a "little team of scientists
and engineers". There was no engineer and no scientist, of
course, in that "team". Leuchter's report, as we all know,
is such a piece of garbage that even most "revisionists" have 
given up on it.

How credible does this make Irving?

# What I am trying to figure out now is why Lipstadt would so
# endanger her credibility by making false assertions about these
# alleged blueprints. 

How do you know she made a "false assertion"?


-Danny Keren.


Article 19347 of alt.revisionism:
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From: t08o@leda.sun.csd.unb.ca (Keith Morrison)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hoffman's lies about Canadian law.
Date: 23 Nov 1994 22:22:06 GMT
Organization: University of New Brunswick, Fredericton, NB, Canada
Lines: 69
Message-ID: <3b0fae$8g9@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>
References: <3a45gu$4m4@access1.digex.net> <1994Nov17.212852.809@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>  <8opqk0yNUQ0Q073yn@world.std.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: leda.sun.csd.unb.ca

From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Message-ID: <8opqk0yNUQ0Q073yn@world.std.com>

>I once entertained the notion of moving to Canada--some of my
>ancestors are from there. Since learning about Canada's medieval
>attitudes and policies towards free thought and free speech, my
>respect for Canada has been significantly diminished. I'm quite
>happy to be living in America.

I was entertained the notion of moving to the US--some of my relatives
are from there.  Since learning about the US's rather bizarre attitudes
and policies towards health care and the right to shoot anyone they
feel like, my respect for the US has been significantly diminished.  I'm
quite happy to be living in Canada.

>Canadians should pay more attention to Thomas Jefferson and less
>attention to some of the crypto-Leninists who think they can
>legislate history through shyster legal manipulations. Jefferson
>was by far the more enlightened visionary on these matters. Let
>the truth get sorted out in the process of free and open debate.

Some Americans should pay more attention to the truth and plain facts
and less attention to some of the crypto-racists who think they can
rewrite history through snide insinuations about Jews and their 
place in history.  Let the truth get revealed in the process of
demonstrating how these people are idiots.

And speaking of the right to free speech, Mr. McGuire, can you explain
why it is illegal to burn your national flag and get prosecuted for it?
Why is it illegal to express yourself in such a manner in the Land of the 
Free?  Surely that is a restriction on the freedom of expression?

And can you explain why "a nation conceived in liberty and dedicated
to the proposition that all men are created equal" exercised the ownership
of other humans long after us primatives up here had it forbidden?

Can you name the last Prime Minister we had who was removed from office
in the middle of his term because of he participated in a crime?

Can you explain why security firms advising businesspeople suggest they
where a Canadian flag lapel pin when travelling overseas in areas with
ther possibility of terrorist activity?

Can you explain why Canadian peacekeepers are called on the most to 
stop people from shooting at each other?

Can you explain why the US government ordered a Coast Guard vessel to
illegally pass through the Northwest Passage to challenge Canada's legal
jurisdiction of the area?

It would behoove you to consider the glass house you are standing in before
you throw stones at someone else's.

Aside to American Readers: I don't hate the US.  Really.  Honest.  It's a
great place for our entertainers to make some quick cash ;>

---------------------------------------------------------------

Keith Morrison

"I never evade answering any specific posts, because I never, ever
 commit anything to print that I am not willing to back up in detail."
                                       - Wayne McGuire, 7 Nov 1994

************************************************************
*t08o@unb.ca  *  My views are not those of the University  *
***************  of New Brunswick.  UNB never has views on *
*             *  on anything, ever.                        *
************************************************************


Article 19348 of alt.revisionism:
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From: t08o@leda.sun.csd.unb.ca (Keith Morrison)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Canadian Journalist Prosecuted for Criticizing Schindlers List
Date: 23 Nov 1994 22:43:39 GMT
Organization: University of New Brunswick, Fredericton, NB, Canada
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <3b0gir$9fo@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>
References:   <1994Nov22.005410.1468@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: leda.sun.csd.unb.ca

Message-ID: 
Sender: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)

>The world, and especially
>Americans, love subversives who challenge oppressive authorities
>and sacred cows. 

Well yes, some Americans do love subversives who challenge oppressive
authority.  What state was Ollie North running in again?

>Americans are no more likely to endure being bullied
>intellectually by Holocaustodians than are Palestinians going to
>sit still for being intellectually and physically oppressed by
>Israelis.

OH MY GOD LOOK OUT KEN!  THE AMERICANS ARE COMING, THE AMERICANS ARE COMING!

Hmm.  "Shoah Business", "Holohoax", now "Holocustodians?  My my my, Mr.
McGuire does seem to have selected a word just full of association with
those of certain other posters around here.  Tell me, Mr. McGuire, is
"Holocustodian" a word accepted around the graduate seminar tables at
Hah-vuhd?

>Have you paid much attention to the victims in Bosnia and Rwanda
>lately? I very much doubt it.

Sigh.  I'd _really_ hoped he had given up that useless garbage.

To paraphrase Janet Jackson, and what have you done for them lately?

---------------------------------------------------------------

Keith Morrison

"I never evade answering any specific posts, because I never, ever
 commit anything to print that I am not willing to back up in detail."
                                       - Wayne McGuire, 7 Nov 1994

************************************************************
*t08o@unb.ca  *  My views are not those of the University  *
***************  of New Brunswick.  UNB never has views on *
*             *  on anything, ever.                        *
************************************************************


Article 19349 of alt.revisionism:
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From: t08o@leda.sun.csd.unb.ca (Keith Morrison)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Put up or shut up, Mr. Hoffman (v 1.02, Round 3)
Date: 23 Nov 1994 23:05:29 GMT
Organization: University of New Brunswick, Fredericton, NB, Canada
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <3b0hrp$agp@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>
References: <1994Nov15.130004.8751@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> <1994Nov20.231422.22266@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>  
NNTP-Posting-Host: leda.sun.csd.unb.ca

Message-ID: 
Sender: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)

>I've got to admit, you really cleaned Ken's clock in this thread.
>But that's not much of an achievement. McVay's much more a
>propaganda robot than a creative thinker. He'd do quite well in
>an official position with the ADL or some government
>"information" ministry--perhaps Israel's.

All those who think Hoffie^2 cleaned Ken's clock please raise their
hands...okay...thank you.  Miltie, you can put your hand down now.
What?  No, I know you have to keep it up in your salute, but we have
to count...okay are you done with the "Heil Hitler"?  Thank you.

All those who disagree with Mr McGuire's perception of Hoffie^2 versus
Ken McVay, please raise your hands...fifty...sixty...okay, I don't
think we have to count, it seems obvious that most people think McGuire
is wrong...what was that, Mr Doyal?  You demand a recount.  Why?
Because you served in World War II.  I'm sorry, sir, that does not make
a diff...yes, what do you want Ricky?  Fred Leuchter to count and
David Irving to keep track.  I don't really think that's necessary...no
Smith, we don't need to form a committee for open debate on the count...
Dan, Ricky has said that already...No, Mr McGuire, I'm not Jewish...no
I'm not a Judeobolshevist either...Dan, will you *please* stop repeating
that...

>I knew instantly from the first few pages of her book that she
>couldn't stand in the ring for more than a few rounds with any
>half-decent "revisionist" or revisionist, even if she were right
>and her opponent was wrong. She quite simply lacks the mental
>tools to engage in vigorous debate, and she is much too much
>controlled by her tribal gonads. That's always the kiss of
>death--too much tribalism in your bloodstream. Clouds the brain
>wickedly. Gets you spluttering and flapping your arms every
>time--squawk! squawk! squawk! The more they squawk, the more you
>laugh, and the more they squawk, the more you laugh....

Fixation on reproductive organs, comparing a person to an animal,
insulting their intelligence...

He's obviously a creation of Smith, Raven and McCarthy.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Keith Morrison

"I never evade answering any specific posts, because I never, ever
 commit anything to print that I am not willing to back up in detail."
                                       - Wayne McGuire, 7 Nov 1994

************************************************************
*t08o@unb.ca  *  My views are not those of the University  *
***************  of New Brunswick.  UNB never has views on *
*             *  on anything, ever.                        *
************************************************************


Article 19352 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uunet!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: In Dramatic Confrontation, Irving Convicts Lipstadt of Lying
In-Reply-To: wmcguire@world.std.com's message of Wed, 23 Nov 1994 09:58:46 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  <3alusa$b37@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
	 <3apheo$41b@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
	 
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 23:55:50 GMT
Lines: 70


From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
>>In article , hoffman2nd@delphi.com wrote:

	(quote from hoffman supposedly from Irving)

>Am I mistaken, or has Deborah Lipstadt made a complete ass of
>herself?

Am I mistaken, or will Mr McGuire take ANY self-styled Nazi who shows
up here on their word, no matter what they say?

Here are some other words from this person you are NOW quoting as
authoritative:

From: hoffman2nd@delphi.com
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 94 15:33:10 -0500
>She tucked the ten dollar bill under her mattress and pulled up her panties as
>the semen streamed from her pussy.>> Prostitute, Mr. Hoffman? What evidence do
>you have for such nonsense?What are you trying to imply?<<

	(even tho he refers to himself yes that was him)

And McGuire wonders why he has no credibility around here?

Remember your beloved Mr Hoffman going nutso here a few messages ago
because the goddamned Simpsons cartoon showed something positive about
a Jewish character!?

Nothing to do with WWII, the Holocaust, Germans, nothing like that.

He was frothing at the mouth simply because a Jewish cartoon character
was portrayed in a positive light!

Here is your hero and mentor, Mr McGuire! You have found another
kindred soul!

>What I am trying to figure out now is why Lipstadt would so
>endanger her credibility by making false assertions about these
>alleged blueprints.

Did she? Or didn't she?

Who knows?

Or haven't you noticed that these Nazis scumbags, like yourself, will
simply lie and fabricate things like this?

I mean, we have caught you eliding paragraphs from supposed quotes
which, if included, wholly reverse your thesis.

We know what we are dealing with here, Mr McGuire. We know the
game. People who will simply fabricate anything in the hope that some
gullible person won't bother to check them out.

So where is the text to that article from the Jewish Press you kept
alluding to over and over?

All of a sudden you can't find time to provide the quote?

Har, har Mr McGuire...Har, har.

It's ok, we're looking it up for you...


-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 19354 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uunet!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: In Dramatic Confrontation, Irving Convicts Lipstadt of Lying
In-Reply-To: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu's message of 23 Nov 94 06:15:47 -0500
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  <3alusa$b37@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
	 <1994Nov23.061547.34601@miavx1>
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 23:57:53 GMT
Lines: 25


From: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov)
>wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) writes:
>> I've read enough Irving and enough Lipstadt to know that Irving
>> could intellectually crush Lipstadt in a debate on just about any
>> subject--he obviously possesses the much more powerful mind,
>> regardless of whether you agree with his conclusions about World
>> War II. He is a major historian.
>What?  
>
>where did you get this from?  there isn't a major historian 
>in the world who's saidd a good thing about Irving. 

David Irving hates Jews and loves Nazis.

Therefore, by definition, he is one of Mr McGuire's heros and the
greatest historian that has ever lived.

Period.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 19358 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uunet!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: In Dramatic Confrontation, Irving Convicts Lipstadt of Lying
In-Reply-To: anny@ix.netcom.com's message of 23 Nov 1994 18:12:05 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  <3alusa$b37@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
	 <3apheo$41b@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
	 
	<3b00ll$1vm@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 1994 00:11:37 GMT
Lines: 48


From: anny@ix.netcom.com (Annie Alpert)
>In  wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne 
>McGuire) writes: 
>
>
>>And is it true that Lipstadt has advocated silencing and
>>censoring revisionists? 
>
>When I heard her lecture at Kean College in Elizabeth New Jersey last 
>year, she advocated no such thing.  She said specifically that deniers 
>have a right to speak but that they should be rebutted with facts--in 
>fact she said that in her book, in case you haven't read it....

Oh please, McGuire wasn't asking a question, he was "innocently"
posing an accusation in the form of a question as a cheap propaganda
device.

...And is it true that Mr McGuire has advocated the murder of Jews and
thought the Holocaust was a great idea?

Yeah, right.

>in 
>fact she said that in her book, in case you haven't read it....
>
>"Let this point not be misunderstood.  The deniers have the absolute 
>right to stand on any street corner and spread their calumnies.  They 
>have the right to publish their articles and books and hold their 
>gatherings.  But free speech does not guarentee them the right to be 
>treated as the "other" people in a legitamate debate.  Nor does it 
>guarentee them space on op-ed pages or time on television or radio 
>shows.  Most importantly it does not call for people such as Chomsky to 
>stand by them and thereby commend their views to the public" (Denying 
>the Holocaust, p 17)

Of course, these scumbag revisionists have nothing to say for
themselves but fabricated innuendo.

Is there really anyone here remaining who is fooled in the slightest
by Mr McGuire's fabrications and cheap and tawdry attempts at
propaganda?

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 19359 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!pipex!uunet!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Canadian Journalist Prosecuted for Criticizing Schindlers List
In-Reply-To: wmcguire@world.std.com's message of Wed, 23 Nov 1994 12:14:22 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  
	<1994Nov22.005410.1468@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
	
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 1994 00:32:56 GMT
Lines: 117


From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
>Every move that Holocaust cultists make to legislate history and
>censor free speech

Blah blah blah.

And who are these "holocaust cultists" again Mr McGuire?

Are the Jews now in firm control of Canada also?

Let's see, Mr McGuire's world:

	1. The Jews were responsible for the Russian Revolution and
	all of Marxism.

	2. The Jews were responsible for the Nazi Holocaust against
	them.

	3. The Jews are in control of Canada and forcing them to
	enact anti-hate laws.

	4. The Jews are in control of the US Congress and forcing
	them to give billions of dollars to Israel.

These loons are great, the Jews are responsible for communism, the
Jews are of course also responsible for capitalism (remember, they
control all the banks and most of the world's money!), the Jews are in
control of the British Parliament, the Jews are certainly in control
of Germany (remember they're arresting neo-nazis there, the *only*
possible explanation is that the Jews control Helmut Kohl and the
German parliament like puppets on strings), the Jews control the
world's media, all of hollywood, all of television, all newspapers...

What else?

>Americans are no more likely to endure being bullied
>intellectually by Holocaustodians

Why would they bother "bullying" them Mr McGuire? They're firmly in
control of the US Congress! You have said so yourself!

>Do you know who hired Neil Sher after he was disgraced at OSI for
>concealing evidence that exonerated Demjanjuk?

He was hardly exonerated, he was only exonerated of some specific
charges. Primarily because, in his defense, he convinced the court
that he was off committing horrid crimes elsewhere.

What a guy...another McGuire hero.

>(Stein seems to have made himself scarce lately--I understand he
>has a very busy schedule--and I am getting bored.)

Perhaps like everyone else here he has decided you are just a moron
not worth the trouble?

>Has it ever bothered you that the Marxist Holocaust denial
>practiced on the left in this century has vastly exceeded the
>Nazi Holocaust denial on the right?

Really? Produce a shred of evidence. What is your so-called "marxist
holocaust denial"'s equivalent of the IHR? Where are their Bradley
Smiths and Greg Ravens? Where are their "66 Questions about the [Nazi]
Holocaust" analogues? Who exactly is actively denying these crimes?

Other than when you just decide to randomly lash out and begin
accusing anyone who disagrees with you on this list of being a
"Marxist" a "Kahanist" or any foul and stupid thing that pops into
your head and completely without evidence.

Mr McGuire: Do you know what defines a totalitarian mentality? It is a
mentality that tells someone ELSE what they think, without regard to
their own opinion. Now compare that to your idiotic and baseless
accusations of people here as being "kahanists" and "marxists". You
are a tin-pot totalitarian, Mr McGuire. You TELL people what their
opinions are, as it suits your own agenda!

Does Mr McGuire really claim that the communists' escaped notice?

Why exactly did the US have 20,000 nuclear bombs poised at the USSR?

Why was there an international force, fully armed and ready to roll,
all over the border with E. Germany for 30 years?

Exactly what does the phrase "World War Three" invoke in one's head?

Hint: It wasn't a fear that the Nazis were going to rise again!

Now Mr McGuire is claiming that the West, that this society, just
ignored the Communists, had nothing negative to say about them?

Korea, Vietnam, Cuba, North Korea recently, the Pueblo, Che Guevara in
Bolivia, the Berlin Wall, the Cuban Missile Crisis, ...

Are you nuts or what? Is this just some sort of personal psychosexual
need for infinite amounts of stimulation on the subject? The Cold War
wasn't enough?

>Have you paid much attention to the victims in Bosnia and Rwanda
>lately? I very much doubt it.

Have you?

You seem to mainly have a singular obsession with Soviet Communism,
which is now pretty much dead, and Israel, which to your exasperation
seems to be moving along with a peace process that even has Yassir
Arafat smiling!

Face it, McGuire! The world has passed you by!


-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 19360 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uunet!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Canadian Journalist Prosecuted for Criticizing Schindlers List
In-Reply-To: martev's message of Wed, 23 Nov 1994 14:50:30 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  
	<1994Nov22.005410.1468@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
	
	
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 1994 00:39:38 GMT
Lines: 40


From: martev 
>Anti Semitism has always been a sick cause, and it seems that hiding 
>behind these monitors makes it even easier for you and your ilk.....
>
>Keep it up, as every post you make, adds to the evidence of your hate and 
>lack of facts... I have never seen such errors of historical facts and 
>legalities as yours.
>
>Could it have been child abuse YOU suffered?...
>
>Sexual dysfuntion, or what?
>
>Why so much hate in you?

You know, it's funny, just previous to running into your post I was
speculating out loud here on about the same thing, a few messages
back.

I was wondering why Mr McGuire, even after having witnessed the Cold
War ending (which is over in the sense he seems to struggle with) and
the Israeli/Palestinian peace process he seems to need to rave with
such energy as if all this were still current in the outdated way he
seems to want to freeze it all in time.

Like a ball game whose exciting moment one just cannot let go of.

I wondered if McGuire had some perverse psychosexual need for this
masturbatory fascination, it struck me this way also.

Coincidence that we should both independently express this observation
in such similar ways?

You be the judge...

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 19361 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uunet!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Hoffman's lies about Canadian law.
In-Reply-To: wmcguire@world.std.com's message of Wed, 23 Nov 1994 12:58:48 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <3a45gu$4m4@access1.digex.net> 
	
	<1994Nov17.212852.809@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
	 <8opqk0yNUQ0Q073yn@world.std.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 1994 00:45:43 GMT
Lines: 48


From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
>Elements of the Jewish establishment in Canada are trying to
>crush free thought and free speech about the Holocaust by
>whatever legal devices they can lay their hands on.

To Arms! To Arms! The Jews have now invaded Canada!

No, the Canadians cannot possibly make up their own minds, they must
necessarily be under the evil mind-controlling domination of feeelthy
jooos!

Ever read Hitler's "Mein Kampf"? He does this better than you ever
will, McGuire.

>Jefferson
>was by far the more enlightened visionary on these matters. Let
>the truth get sorted out in the process of free and open debate.

But to no avail Mr McGuire! As you have repeatedly stated here the US
government is in the death-grip of the joooos! This is why they send
billyuns and billyuns to Israel! Not because they believe it is in
their own interest, but because feeelthy jooos have used secret
martian mind-rays to rob them of their free will!

Tell us you weren't lying when you told us that, McGuire! Say it ain't
so!

>If groups like the Simon Wiesenthal Center, which are closely
>tied to the OSI, attempt to censor the Internet (as they have
>already shown every sign of desiring to do),

Bullshit.

Pure and unadulterated bullshit.

Shall we go over what happened again?

Probably not, you are far too busy posing Hoffman and Irving and no
doubt Heinreich Himmler himself as world-class authorities and your
heros...


-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 19362 of alt.revisionism:
Xref: oneb alt.revisionism:19362 alt.bonehead.joel-furr:305
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.bonehead.joel-furr,alt.internet.media-coverage
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uunet!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Hoffman's lies about Canadian law.
In-Reply-To: jfurr@acpub.duke.edu's message of 23 Nov 1994 09:10:55 -0500
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <3a45gu$4m4@access1.digex.net> <1994Nov17.212852.809@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
	 <8opqk0yNUQ0Q073yn@world.std.com>
	<3avihf$r3r@news.duke.edu>
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 1994 00:48:31 GMT
Lines: 48


From: jfurr@acpub.duke.edu (Joel K. Furr)
>wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) wrote:
>>You'd think that if these groups were truly confident about their
>>historical data, that they wouldn't be so nervous about letting
>>the data speak for itself. Their peculiar skittishness about free
>>and open debate betrays weakness and doubt on their part, and
>>only whets the appetite of the skeptics.
>
>Wayne, when the "open debate" consists of Holocaust revisionists going 
>before a talk show audience and making bold and totally false claims, 
>what is the other side supposed to do?  Rifle through a box of files and 
>then hold up a document for the cameras to zoom in on that proves the 
>claim was bushwah?  That's the sort of "free debate with the Holocaust 
>revisionists" that y'all would seem to want: you tell insane lies, the 
>audience goes "ooh!" and the other side, if they even dignified your side 
>by showing up, is left unable to do anything besides call you liars or, 
>as above, start rifling through the files.

Exactly, Mr Furr, you have this one down to a science.

>You're not in this for free and open _debate_.  You're in this for 
>sensationalistic claims that the other side ALWAYS proves wrong, leaving 
>you free to make wild accusations about their funding sources and then 
>going on to make still more claims.

Score again Joel!

>If you took the debunkers on in any kind of standard debate, using 
>standard debating rules, you'd score essentially zero points; debate 
>judges aren't overly impressed with invented evidence and unanswered 
>rebuttals.

Bingo, Mr Furr bats 1000.

Mr McGuire has been caught repeatedly fabricating his so-called
"evidence", editing out paragraphs from documents which would reverse
what was said and so forth.

It gets quite tiresome, but the gullible do need help in understanding
this sort of brain-virus.


-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 19363 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!hudson.lm.com!news.pop.psu.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!uunet!news1.digex.net!access1!karlpov
From: karlpov@access1.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: In Dramatic Confrontation, Irving Convicts Lipstadt of Lying
Date: 23 Nov 1994 12:18:51 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 44
Message-ID: 
References:  <3alusa$b37@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>  <3apheo$41b@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>  
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) writes:

>Am I mistaken, or has Deborah Lipstadt made a complete ass of
>herself? 

You are, as usual, mistaken.

>I've read enough Irving and enough Lipstadt to know that Irving
>could intellectually crush Lipstadt in a debate on just about any
>subject--he obviously possesses the much more powerful mind,
>regardless of whether you agree with his conclusions about World
>War II. He is a major historian.

"Major?"  By whose standards?  He was once a respected historian.  Now 
he's not even that.

>Some of the more infantile anti-revisionists, who are all
>emotionally pumped up and ignorant about current historical
>writing, will deny this. We just saw Barry Shein dismiss Dmitri
>Volkogonov as a "moron," for instance, because he expressed views
>about Lenin and Leninism which upset Barry's prejudices and
>preconceptions.

No, he was reacting to Vokogonov as filtered by McGuire.  From what I've 
seen of Volkogonov, there's nothing wrong with his book: it's McGuire who 
makes claims like "Lenin was a Jew" and attempts thus to justify the 
Holocaust.

>And is it true that Lipstadt has advocated silencing and
>censoring revisionists? 

She has been quoted on this newsgroup explicitly advocataing freedom of 
expression for revisionists, or deniers as she more accurately calls them.

>level of excited ADL pamphleteering. If Michael Stein is no
>Christopher Hitchens, then Deborah Lipstadt is no Arno Mayer.

True.  She looks at the facts considerably more objectively than Mayer.

>(This is outside the Mayer thread with Stein, but I couldn't
>resist commenting.)

Funny that you manage to comment on this thread, since you claim not to 
be reading this newsgroup.


Article 19364 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!emory!swrinde!pipex!uunet!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Put up or shut up, Mr. Hoffman (v 1.02, Round 3)
In-Reply-To: wmcguire@world.std.com's message of Wed, 23 Nov 1994 14:12:57 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <1994Nov15.130004.8751@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> 
	<1994Nov20.231422.22266@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
	 
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 1994 00:52:26 GMT
Lines: 30


From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
>I've got to admit, you really cleaned Ken's clock in this thread.
>But that's not much of an achievement. McVay's much more a
>propaganda robot than a creative thinker.

Ken McVay has worked tirelessly to provide, online, massive amounts of
original and source documents to counter the lies of these holocaust
deniers who claim the Nazis were just a bunch of good guys who never
mussed a hair on anyone's head.

That this infuriates you and causes you to expend so much energy
vainly trying to demonize Mr McVay speaks volumes.

Why are you so afraid of McVay?

Can you find any faults with his actual creation, the holocaust
archives? Are they or are they not a wealth of information on the
subject?

Just what *is* your agenda Mr McGuire?

And who in the hell do you think you are fooling?


-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD



Article 19372 of alt.revisionism:
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From: stara@fas.harvard.edu (Felix Vagabond)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: In Dramatic Confrontation, Irving Convicts Lipstadt of Lying
Date: 22 Nov 1994 04:54:52 GMT
Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <3artis$2t3@decaxp.harvard.edu>
References:  <3alusa$b37@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>  <3aop19$l4b@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: fas.harvard.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]

hoffman2nd@delphi.com wrote:
: Annie Alpert  writes:
:  
: >At this point we have only Mr. Irving's word that Dr. Lipstadt said 
: >soemthing that was untrue.  Judging from the tone of his article I doubt 
: >that he con be considered an entirely objective observer.  He was 
: >looking for trouble and he would have found it one way or another.
:  
: Thanks for your classic "Holocaust" cultism. It looks as if you are saying
: that since Irving was "looking for trouble" Lipstadt obliged him by lying
: about gas chamber blueprints. What a crock.
: No we do not "only have Mr. Irving's word" that what Lipstadt said was
: untrue. History is not the sole preserve of opinion and anecdote. There
: are no blueprints as described by Lipstadt period. She retailed a Big Lie
: and Mr. Irving was there to nail her with it. If you doubt that your
: High Priestess is a liar, get the videotape. --Michael A. Hoffman II


  I think you're a liar with capital MENDAX/LUGNER. Michael don't worry
  liars have a place at least here on the net, such yourself. Prove to us 
  that you're the truth messegner, or you're the witness to what happened 50 
  years ago.
  

--
==============================================================================
  ( No memorial can ever exhibit or impart the holocaust of SIX MILLION Jews)

                   VIGILANS.ET AUDAX.SEMPER PARATUS.
              
==============================================================================



Article 19381 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uunet!world!wmcguire
From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Subject: Re: Baglow's Ignorance Revealed For All To See
Message-ID: 
Sender: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die
References: <8opqk0yNUQ0Q073yn@world.std.com> <1994Nov17.212852.809@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>   <3b1fj1$mm8@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 1994 13:07:22 GMT
Lines: 108

In article <3b1fj1$mm8@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) wrote:

//McGuire's insistence on claiming that Lenin was a "Jew" really
//raises some questions.

//It does seem like Lenin had one Jewish grandfather, who converted
//to Christianity. This hardly makes Lenin a Jew. He grew up in a
//Christian home and was educated as a Christian.

No, you totally missed the point. I will post the Volkogonov
quote again, since apparently you missed it. If it isn't fair to
call Lenin a Jewish racist and a Jewish supremacist, then kindly
explain why, Danny. Lenin apparently believed that "Jewish blood"
was superior to "Russian blood," and he acted on this bigotry and
prejudice by loading up the Bolshevik leadership with Jews.
Trotsky, Kamenev, Zinonviev, and Dzerzhinsky are a few examples.

Neither you nor Shein have given the least indication of being
able to engage in a knowledgeable discussion about Volkogonov's
biography of Lenin or any related subjects.

Baglow's limitations, of course, are already well-known. If one
points out that the ADL and the Simon Wiesenthal Center have
called for censorship of the Internet, Baglow would no doubt
discover evidence of anti-Semitism in this simple telling of the
truth.

If elements of the Jewish establishment in Canada and the U.S.
are going to try to trample all over our rights of free thought
and free speech, they had better be prepared to take the heat
when the angry backlash erupts. They seem to be going out of
their way to look like tyrants in search of trouble.

----------------------------------------------------------------



.book excerpt

author=Dmitri Volkogonov
title=Lenin
subtitle=A New Biography
city=New York
publisher=The Free Press
year=1994

excerpt=

page.8=

     In her letter to Stalin, Anna [Yelizarova, Lenin's elder
     sister] wrote: `It's probably no secret for you that the
     research on our grandfather shows that he came from a poor
     Jewish family, that he was, as his baptismal certificate
     says, the son of

page.9=

     "Zhitomir _meshchanin_ Moishe Blank".' She went on to suggest
     that `this fact could serve to help combat anti-semitism'.
     Paradoxically for a Marxist who believed in the primacy of
     environmental over inherited factors, she also asserted the
     dubious proposition that Lenin's Jewish origins `are further
     confirmation of the exceptional abilities of the Semitic
     tribe, [confirmation] always shared by Ilyich [Lenin]...
     Ilyich always valued the Jews highly.' Anna's claim
     explains, for instance, why Lenin frequently recommended
     giving foreigners, especially Jews, intellectually demanding
     tasks, and leaving the elementary work to the `Russian
     fools'. According to General A.A. Yepishev, former chief of
     the army's main political directorate, who heard it from
     Stalin's personal assistant Poskrebyshev, Anna's sister
     Maria handed the letter to Stalin and waited while he read
     it carefully. His response was categorical and fierce:
     `Absolutely not one word about this letter!' But a little
     over a year later, Anna approached Stalin again, asserting
     that `in the Lenin Institute, as well as in the Institute of
     the Brain ... they have long recognized the great gifts of
     this nation and the extremely beneficial effects of its
     blood on the progeny of mixed marriages. Ilyich himself
     rated their revolutionary qualities highly, their "tenacity"
     in the struggle, as he put it, contrasting it with the more
     sluggish and unstable character of the Russians. He often
     pointed out that the great [attributes of] organization and
     the strength of the revolutionary bodies in the south and
     west of [of Russia] arose precisely from the fact that 50
     per cent of their members were of that nationality.' But
     Stalin, the Russified Georgian, could not allow it to be
     known that Lenin had Jewish roots, and his strict
     prohibition remained firmly in place.

excerpt=

page.112=

     He [Lenin] might have been thinking of Parvus (or perhaps
     himself?) when he said to Gorky: `the clever Russian is
     almost always a Jew or has Jewish blood in him.'

author.bio=

     Dmitri Volkogonov is special assistant to President Boris
     Yeltsin and chairman of the presidential commission
     examining the Soviet archives, and the author of _Stalin_
     (1991).





Article 19386 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!usc!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!uhog.mit.edu!sgiblab!swrinde!pipex!uunet!world!wmcguire
From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Subject: Re: In Dramatic Confrontation, Irving Convicts Lipstadt of Lying
Message-ID: 
Sender: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die
References:  <3alusa$b37@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
 <5Q5VlIU.hoffman2nd@delphi.com> <1994Nov23.234840.34627@miavx1>
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 1994 14:05:25 GMT
Lines: 17

In article <1994Nov23.234840.34627@miavx1>,
bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov) wrote:

//> Hugh Trevor-Roper: >>No praise is too high for David Irvings indefatigable
//> scholarly industry.<<
//
//Who is Hugh Trevor-Roper?

Who is Hugh Trevor-Roper ?

And the poser of this amazing question presumes to be able to
pass judgement on the work of David Irving?

Good lord--no wonder so many of the anti-revisionists here are
getting stomped in debate. It's time to retire the C team and
bring in the A team. Is there an anti-revisionist A team? Or is
Michael Stein the only serious guy you've got?


Article 19387 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!uhog.mit.edu!news.kei.com!world!wmcguire
From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Subject: Re: In Dramatic Confrontation, Irving Convicts Lipstadt of Lying
Message-ID: 
Sender: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die
References:  <3alusa$b37@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
	 <1994Nov23.061547.34601@miavx1> 
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 1994 14:08:22 GMT
Lines: 118

In article ,
bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) wrote:

//
//David Irving hates Jews and loves Nazis.
//
//Therefore, by definition, he is one of Mr McGuire's heros and the
//greatest historian that has ever lived.

More deranged ravings and lies from Barry Shein, our resident
crypto-Kahanist and fanatical tribalist. I haven't read enough
Irving to pass judgement on his work one way or the other. I've
read enough of him to know that he's very smart. In fact, two or
three paragraphs will generally give away the mental level of
almost any writer, including all the contributors to this
newsgroup. I also know enough about the world of historical
scholarship to know that Irving is taken seriously--much more
seriously than, say Deborah Lipstadt or Jacques (?) Pressac, whom
many of the anti-revisionists here have tried to pass off as
serious thinkers.

I've been very explicit about some of the writers I admire and am
willing to discuss here in detail--Paul Johnson, Arno Mayer, Tom
Segev, and Richard Pipes are a few of them.

When I've challenged you for your list of authors and works,
you've come up empty-handed. I challenge you again, Shein. List
the works that you are capable of discussing here in depth. Put
up or shut up.

Since you can't even remember the words you wrote a few hours
previously (remember your bizarre accusations about forgery?), I
wonder if you are really capable of discussing any book you might
have read more than a year ago.

Here's my list again:

Arendt, Hannah. Eichmann in Jerusalem: A Report on the Banality
of Evil. New York: Penguin Books, 1963, 1992.

Avineri, Shlomo. Moses Hess: Prophet of Communism and Zionism.
New York: New York University Press, 1985.

Dimont, Max I. Jews, God and History. New York: New American
Library, 1962.

Edwards, Lee. In Memory. (Soviet Terror, American Amnesia: There
has been a striking asymmetry between the American responses to
the two great mass murders of our century, the Nazi and the
Soviet. Why?) National Review, May 2, 1994, v46 n8, p. 32-3.

Elon, Amos. Israel's Holocaust Politics. Review of Tom Segev's
The Seventh Million: The Israelis and the Holocaust. The New York
Review of Books, October 7, 1993, p. 3-5.

Epstein, Jason. A Dissent on `Schindler's List'. The New York
Review of Books, April 21, 1994, p. 65.

Genovese, Eugene D. The Crimes of Communism: What did you know
and when did you know it? Dissent, Summer 1994, p. 371-6.

Hitchens, Christopher. Minority Report. Review of Israel Shahak's
Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The Weight of Three Thousand
Years. The Nation, July 25/August 1, 1994, p. 115.

Johnson, Paul. A History of the Jews. New York: Harper & Row,
1987.

Johnson, Paul. Intellectuals. New York: Harper & Row, 1988.

Johnson, Paul. Modern Times: The World from the Twenties to the
Eighties. New York: Harper & Row, 1983.

Kamlani, Ratu and Tala Skari. In Search of Apologies: A Leftist
Historian Asks other Radicals to Admit their Moral Complicity n
the Evils of Communism. Time, August 22, 1994, p. 87.

Keller, Bill. Major Soviet Paper Says 20 Million Died as Victims
of Stalin. The New York Times, February 4, 1989, p. 1, 4.

Knoll, Erwin. The Uses of the Holocaust. The Progressive, July
1993, v57 n7, p. 15(2).

Mayer, Arno. Why did the Heavens not Darken? The "Final Solution"
in History. New York: Pantheon Books, 1990.

Muller, Jerry Z. Communism, Anti-Semitism and the Jews.
Commentary, August 1988, p. 28-39.

Pipes, Richard. Russia Under the Bolshevik Regime. New York:
Alfred A. Knopf, 1993.

Prager, Dennis and Joseph Telushkin. Why the Jews? The Reason for
Antisemitism. New York: Simon and Schuster, 1983.

Richler, Mordecai. This Year in Jerusalem. New York: Alfred A.
Knopf, 1994.

Roth, Philip. Operation Shylock: A Confession. New York: Simon
and Schuster, 1993.

Segev, Tom. The Seventh Million: The Israelis and the Holocaust.
New York: Hill and Wang, 1993.

Shahak, Israel. Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The Weight of
Three Thousand Years. London: Pluto Press, 1994.

Southerland, Daniel. Study of famine in China reveals cannibalism
cases. The Boston Globe, July 17, 1994, p. 20.

Volkogonov, Dmitri. Lenin: A New Biography. New York: The Free
Press, 1994.

Walz, Rev. L. Humphrey. New Shahak Book Challenges Jews,
Christians, and Others. Review of Israel Shahak's Jewish History,
Jewish Religion: The Weight of Three Thousand Years. The
Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, September/October 1994,
v13 n3, p. 71.


Article 19392 of alt.revisionism:
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From: lnyman@info.census.gov (Lisa Nyman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: In Dramatic Confrontation, Irving Convicts Lipstadt of Lying
Date: 24 Nov 1994 10:19:52 -0500
Organization: US Census Bureau
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <3b2auo$rht@info.census.gov>
References:   <3ato2e$58u@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> <5y5Ud8d.hoffman2nd@delphi.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: info.census.gov

In article <5y5Ud8d.hoffman2nd@delphi.com>,   wrote:
> 
>Books forthcoming in 1995 by Michael A. Hoffman II:
>The Ku Klux Khazars: Racism and Propaganda in Ancient and Contemporary Judaism
>The Great Holocaust Trial (revised and expanded 3rd paperback edition)

So will these books be free or do *you* plan to earn income
from the Holocaust?


-- 
Lisa W. Nyman   301-763-6005   | Back by popular demand: |
--------------------------------------------------|-------------------------|
SF-19902.95-xy7/23(g) Standard Disclaimer on file |    Life's too short to  |
in the Central Office. I speak for me, Not U.S.   |   wear ugly underwear.  |


Article 19396 of alt.revisionism:
Xref: oneb alt.revisionism:19396 alt.usenet.kooks:10330
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!misvms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: Canadian Journalist Prosecuted for Criticizing Schindlers List
Date: 23 Nov 1994 22:49 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 30
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <23NOV199422490556@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References:   <1994Nov22.005410.1468@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: misvms.bpa.arizona.edu
Summary: More damning McGuire evidence
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

Mr McGuire's prozac level is getting low so in article
 hew wrote a lot of things to Ken
McVay including...

>Btw, how did you come into contact with Eli Rosenbaum? Why did
>Eli Rosenbaum send you documents? Did you request them? Or did he
>take the initiative and contact you?

>Have you ever heard of the Hatch Act?

    I've heard of the Hatch Act.  Have you ever heard of Joseph McCarthy?

    If you have an accusation to make against Mr. Rosenbaum, then make it. 
    Better yet, take your evidence to the Federal Attorney in Boston.  The
    kind of statement you wrote above (with no supporting information) is
    slander and innuendo.

    But then you already knew that, didn't you.

    Mr McGuire, as you have posed the above question to Mr. McVay at least
    six times already, has it occurred to you that he may have answered it
    during one of your many lapses in reading the newsgroup?  In fact Mr.
    McVay HAS addressed your question above on at least a half dozen
    occasions.  And, in fact, he has also noted on several occasions his
    support for free and open holocaust denial speech in Canada.

    But then you probably already knew that, didn't you.

===========================================================================
daniel david mittleman     -     danny@arizona.edu     -     (602) 621-2932


Article 19400 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: McGuire and Irving (was: Re: In Dramatic Confronta
Date: 24 Nov 1994 16:46:42 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <3b2g1i$amj@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References:  <3ato2e$58u@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> <5y5Ud8d.hoffman2nd@delphi.com> <3b2auo$rht@info.census.gov>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

Wayne, are you willing to address David Irving's outright lies,
which I quoted here today?

And are you willing to address his incredibly stupid "analysis"
of Eichmann's memoirs? I posted about it yesterday, and you
didn't respond.

I'll be happy to repost about these two topics, if you missed my
original articles.

It was posted here that Irving was taken to court and convicted
for lying and slandering people in his books even before he became a 
Holocaust denier. Care to comment?


-Danny Keren.






Article 19401 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Picking up my side
Date: 23 Nov 1994 17:19:47 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <3b0f63$rd0@access4.digex.net>
References: <1994Nov15.130004.8751@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> <1994Nov20.231422.22266@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>  
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article ,
Wayne McGuire  wrote:
>In article , hoffman2nd@delphi.com wrote:
>
>I've got to admit, [Hoffman] really cleaned Ken's clock in this thread.

    I think Hoffman (whose clock I think I cleaned in another thread, in
case you missed it) overstated his case, myself.  Hoffman seems to be
trying to claim the law was targeted against revisionists; it is not - it
could also be used to prosecute those who said blacks were shiftless and
lazy, and should be shipped back to Africa.  But I do believe that even
this should be protected speech. 

     (As a side issue, even if you were to accept that the purpose of the
Canadian law is valid I think it still is too broad and vague - it could
easily be struck down by our own Supreme Court as "unconstitutionally
vague" even without reference to the First Amendment.)


>But that's not much of an achievement. McVay's much more a
>propaganda robot than a creative thinker.

[...]

>I'm just marking time here until Mike Stein picks up his side of
>the Arno Mayer thread....

    I did have some unexpected psychodrama in my personal life last night. 
But it appears I'm seeing more newsfeed delay.  There does seem to be at
least one post that I'm missing - I think Danny Keren responded to it, but
I don't appear to have the article to which he responded.  Perhaps I
should also ask you to email your posts just to speed things up.

    I just now responded to your questions about showing my post to Mayer,
and asking for a summary.  I also just responded to your scanned quote
from Mayer, which doesn't really make any *argument* against what I wrote,
simply reiterating Mayer's statement of position.  That's all I've seen in
the thread. 

    So I think I've kept up *my* side of the Arno Mayer thread.  Unless
the fault is in the newsfeed propagation, I'm still waiting for you to
turn off your scanning robot and show me that you're a creative thinker
who can explain in his own words why and how the Ja"ger report does or
does not fit the pattern and chronology described by Mayer. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 19402 of alt.revisionism:
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: In Dramatic Confrontation, Irving Convicts Lipstadt of Lying
Message-ID: <1994Nov23.234840.34627@miavx1>
From: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov)
Date: 23 Nov 94 23:48:40 -0500
References:  <3alusa$b37@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>   
 <5Q5VlIU.hoffman2nd@delphi.com>
Organization: Miami University
Lines: 36

In article <5Q5VlIU.hoffman2nd@delphi.com>, hoffman2nd@delphi.com writes:
> Raskolnikov  writes:
>  
>>where did you get this from?  there isn't a major historian 
>>in the world who's saidd a good thing about Irving. 
>  
> Hugh Trevor-Roper: >>No praise is too high for David Irvings indefatigable
> scholarly industry.<<

Who is Hugh Trevor-Roper?

Where is this cited?

What's the context?  

  There's a difference between complimenting someone's "scholarly
industry" and concluding that they are a historian of merit. he could
very well say in the next sentence that Irving is also dishonest
while still being a researcher of considerable industry.

  for all I know, Mr. Trevor-Roper is commending Irvings ability
to locate sources that agree with his thesis, no matter how
hard to find or rare they are.  This statement (100% context free,
mind you) says nothing about Irving's reasoning or conlusions.
 
  I wonder why you didn't tell me anything about Hugh Trevor-Roper.
Perhaps you hoped that I would attack this individual in the assumption
that he is a holocaust denier?  well, I won't take the bait.


=======================================================================
Brian Harmon	     "The world is on its elbows and knees;
Miami University	It has forgotten the message and worships
Ohio 45056			the creeds!"
WHUT R U LOOKIN AT?			-- Matt Johnson
--------------bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu--------------------------


Article 19413 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McGuire's Anti-Semitism Revealed For All To See
Date: 24 Nov 1994 07:32:49 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <3b1fj1$mm8@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References: <8opqk0yNUQ0Q073yn@world.std.com> <1994Nov17.212852.809@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>  
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

McGuire's insistence on claiming that Lenin was a "Jew" really
raises some questions. 

It does seem like Lenin had one Jewish grandfather, who converted
to Christianity. This hardly makes Lenin a Jew. He grew up in a 
Christian home and was educated as a Christian.

Not that I think that this is really important, but this canard
of describing Lenin as a Jew is such a typical antisemitic tactic
that one has to wonder why McGuire chooses to use it.


-Danny Keren.


Article 19414 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: In Dramatic Confrontation, Irving Convicts Lipstadt of Lying
Date: 23 Nov 1994 19:05:51 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 121
Message-ID: <3b0lcv$3hq@access4.digex.net>
References:  <3apheo$41b@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>  
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

    Note: some text has been moved for better logical organization.

In article ,
Wayne McGuire  wrote:
>This is a pretty amazing thread, from the original Irving
>material to here.

>I've read enough Irving and enough Lipstadt to know that Irving
>could intellectually crush Lipstadt in a debate on just about any
>subject--he obviously possesses the much more powerful mind,

    And the much more dishonest one.  I believe it was Lucy Dawidowicz who
tagged him on the matter of the Himmler phone log (and even if Irving is
right about the two lines being separate thoughts, he misses the clear
inference that if a specific Hitler order is needed to stop liquidation of
a transport, then liquidation is SOP at this time).  I nailed Irving
myself on the matter of the meaning of "Ausrottung".  As I said in an
earlier post: 



[Irving's testimony in the Zundel trial]:
>He says the same to the Czechoslovakian President Emil
>Hacha, on March the 15th, 1939. Hacha has just signed away
>Czechoslovakias independence in a midnight session with Hitler and Hitler
>says to him afterwards, It is a good thing that you signed because
>otherwise it would have meant the *ausrotten*  of the Czechoslovakian
>people  Hitler didnt mean, If you hadnt signed, I would have to
>kill 8 million Czechs. What he is saying [is], If you hadnt signed, I
>would have ended Czechoslovakias existence as a separate country

    How very interesting.  First, Hacha's action *did* mean the end of
Czechoslovakia's existence as a national state, as a power, as a factor -
the meaning Irving ascribed to "ausrotten" in the previous passage.  But
that is what supposedly would have happened if Hacha *hadn't* signed!
More significantly, Hitler didn't say the "ausrotten" of the Czech
*state*.  He said the "ausrotten" of the Czechoslovakian PEOPLE.

    Obviously, revisionists can't read.  This includes both Irving and Mr.
von Peters (as WmMichael once signed himself in an earlier post).  What
Hitler is saying is that if Hacha hadn't signed, there would have been a
war - in which there would indeed have been *massive killing of Czech
people*.



    The attempt to pull a fast one in pretending that Hitler spoke of
"ausrotten" a country as a political entity when a review of the quote
shows that Hitler talked about "ausrotten" a *people* shows that Irving's
mind may be powerful, but in the way a mound of manure is.


>regardless of whether you agree with his conclusions about World
>War II. He is a major historian.

    And Hitler was a major world leader.  This is not at all the same 
thing as saying that he was a *good* one.


>What I am trying to figure out now is why Lipstadt would so
>endanger her credibility by making false assertions about these
>alleged blueprints.

    I don't know.  I have heard that a Prof. van Pelt has unearthed some
new stuff fairly recently, though I'm not sure what; maybe they *do* exist
and neither Hoffman nor I know about them yet.  I guess only Lipstadt can
answer the question about what her statement was based on.  Personally, I
would reserve final judgement until getting more information than just
Irving's take on things, which is rather like rendering a verdict
immediately after having heard the prosecution's case.


>In article , hoffman2nd@delphi.com wrote:
>
>//Lipstadt has traveled over the world demanding that revisionists be 
>//silenced and censored.  She traveled to Australia and argued on behalf 
>//of David Irving being banned from the entire continent.  She refuses 
>//to debate.

>//No wonder the rabbis want to make revisionism illegal. It is the only 
>//way to salvage the Lipstadts of the world.


>And is it true that Lipstadt has advocated silencing and
>censoring revisionists?

    You are cautioned that I have conclusively demonstrated that Michael
Hoffman is not above bald-faced lying (saying that his reason for making a
statement was a comment of mine not made until nearly three weeks *after*
he made his own statement) and utterly distorted reading of sources. 
While he has posted claims which did stand up (wrt Reszo Kastner), his
claims about the specific charges laid against Amon Goeth were not in fact
proved by the sources Hoffman cited as proof.  Two sources only mentioned
corruption charges, and the other two were too ambiguous in their wording
to draw any solid conclusion. 

    As shown above, neither his honesty nor literacy can be taken for
granted.  Therefore I would not accept Hoffman's word for anything without
getting an objective source and reading it myself to verify that it does
in fact say what Hoffman claims it does. 


>If there is another side to this story about the Irving/Lipstadt
>confrontation, I wish someone would post it.

    As do I.

>If Michael Stein is no Christopher Hitchens,

    Indeed I am not, nor have I ever tried to be.

>then Deborah Lipstadt is no Arno Mayer.

    Nor is Christopher Hitchens Arno Mayer, for that matter.  And neither
Lipstadt nor Hitchens nor Mayer nor I are either David Irving or Wayne
McGuire.  I for one am perfectly content with that state of affairs. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 19416 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: In Dramatic Confrontation, Irving Convicts Lipstadt of Lying
Date: 24 Nov 1994 07:56:02 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <3b1gui$n9a@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References:    <3b0lcv$3hq@access4.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

Here's another example of the way in which David Irving lies
and distorts reality. Can you comment, Wayne?

In his forward to the "Leuchter report", Irving writes:
 
# Fred Leuchter and his team of fellow engineers and scientists
# went to Auschwitz and other Nazi concentration camps in Poland 
 
[deleted]
 
Irving is, as usual, lying. There were no engineers and no
scientists on Leuchter's "team". 
 
Irving is obviously lying intentionally, trying to make Leuchter
and the other crackpots look more reliable. 
 
What do you think about this?

Irving goes on to praise the "Leuchter report". There are two
possibilities here. Either Irving knows that the "report" is a
piece of garbage and he is, again, intentionally lying about its 
content, or maybe he's simply too stupid to realize that it's a 
piece of garbage. Either way, he doesn't come out looking very good.
 
What do you think all this reflects about Irving? If you choose to
respond, please directly address these points. Usually, you don't
respond to questions directed to you, but diverge to totally
unrelated matters, like mideast politics or whatever.
 
 
-Danny Keren.




Article 19420 of alt.revisionism:
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From: anny@ix.netcom.com (Annie Alpert)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: In Dramatic Confrontation, Irving Convicts Lipstadt of Lying
Date: 24 Nov 1994 21:28:42 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 13
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3b30ia$8ko@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>
References:  <3alusa$b37@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: ix-nwk4-06.ix.netcom.com

In  bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) 
writes: 
>
>Is there really anyone here remaining who is fooled in the slightest
>by Mr McGuire's fabrications and cheap and tawdry attempts at
>propaganda?

Not me, anyway......
-- 
* * * * * * * * * 
Annie Alpert

I've found a new home on NETCOM.  EMAIL me here if you like.


Article 19422 of alt.revisionism:
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From: anny@ix.netcom.com (Annie Alpert)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: In Dramatic Confrontation, Irving Convicts Lipstadt of Lying
Date: 24 Nov 1994 21:34:56 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 22
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3b30u0$8r2@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>
References:  <3alusa$b37@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>  <3aop19$l4b@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>  <3ato2e$58u@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> <5y5Ud8d.hoffman2nd@delphi.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ix-nwk4-06.ix.netcom.com

In <5y5Ud8d.hoffman2nd@delphi.com> hoffman2nd@delphi.com writes: 

>You are in overyour head, Annie. Your heroine said she had blueprints 
showing
>the holes for pouring the Zyklon B pellets into the homicidal gas 
chambers.
>There are no such blueprints, period. Not in Pressac, not anywhere.
> 
As I remember it, my friend, Mr. IRVING said Dr. Lipstadt said there 
were "blueprints" showing holes for zyklon B insertion.  We do not have 
the words from the lady's mouth--or pen.  If you can provide that, it 
would make this conversation a hell of a lot more meaningful.

By the way, how does Irving hope to sell an unauthorized tape of a 
lecture for profit without consent?  Anyone know?


-- 
* * * * * * * * * 
Annie Alpert

I've found a new home on NETCOM.  EMAIL me here if you like.


Article 19423 of alt.revisionism:
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From: anny@ix.netcom.com (Annie Alpert)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: In Dramatic Confrontation, Irving Convicts Lipstadt of Lying
Date: 24 Nov 1994 21:40:37 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 32
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3b318l$8t2@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>
References:  <3alusa$b37@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>    <1994Nov23.234840.34627@miavx1>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ix-nwk4-06.ix.netcom.com

In <1994Nov23.234840.34627@miavx1> bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu 
(Raskolnikov) writes: 

>
>In article <5Q5VlIU.hoffman2nd@delphi.com>, hoffman2nd@delphi.com 
writes:
>> Raskolnikov  writes:
>>  
>>>where did you get this from?  there isn't a major historian 
>>>in the world who's saidd a good thing about Irving. 
>>  
>> Hugh Trevor-Roper: >>No praise is too high for David Irvings 
indefatigable
>> scholarly industry.<<
>
>Who is Hugh Trevor-Roper?
>
>Where is this cited?
>
>What's the context?  
>
Hugh Trevor Roper is (was?) a historian who wrote "The LAst Days of 
Hitler" (1947) and other books.

I read something he wrote against Holocaust denial once--a forward to a 
book or something. If he said soemthing nice about Irving, it must have 
been a long, long time ago.
-- 
* * * * * * * * * 
Annie Alpert

I've found a new home on NETCOM.  EMAIL me here if you like.


Article 19428 of alt.revisionism:
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From: btucker@crab.rutgers.edu (Bill Btucker)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Baglow's Ignorance Revealed For All To See
Date: 24 Nov 1994 22:09:17 -0500
Organization: Rutgers University
Lines: 23
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3b3kgt$lps@crab.rutgers.edu>
References: <8opqk0yNUQ0Q073yn@world.std.com> <1994Nov17.212852.809@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>   <3b1fj1$mm8@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: crab.rutgers.edu

wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) writes:

>...If it isn't fair to
>call Lenin a Jewish racist and a Jewish supremacist, then kindly
>explain why, Danny. Lenin apparently believed that "Jewish blood"
>was superior to "Russian blood,"...

Whether they are right or wrong--and I firmly believe the latter--many 
people who are not Jewish have asserted that Jews are intellectually 
superior to many other ethnic groups.  Many proponents of such a claim 
are well known scientists, some of them members of the National 
Academy of Sciences.  

Is it Mr. McGuire's position that all these non-Jews are 
"Jewish racists?" If not, why is Lenin one, for expressing the same 
belief?  (Of course, the claim that Lenin is Jewish is itself absurd, 
something which has been already pointed out to Mr. McGuire, but to which 
he chooses not to respond, putatively because he is too busy in a private 
colloquy over Mayer.)

Bill Tucker
btucker@crab.rutgers.edu



Article 19431 of alt.revisionism:
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From: jeff_brown@pol.com (Jeffrey G. Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McGuire's Anti-Semitism Revealed For All To See
Date: 25 Nov 1994 03:32:47 GMT
Organization: Internet Access Cincinnati 513-887-8877
Lines: 14
Message-ID: 
References: <8opqk0yNUQ0Q073yn@world.std.com> <1994Nov17.212852.809@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>   <3b1fj1$mm8@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ip041220.iac.net

In article <3b1fj1$mm8@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) wrote:

> Not that I think that this is really important, but this canard
> of describing Lenin as a Jew is such a typical antisemitic tactic
> that one has to wonder why McGuire chooses to use it.

Gee, I dunno... maybe the fact that McGuire is a hard-core Jew-basher
would have something to do with it?

JGB

=====================================================================
Jeffrey G. Brown                                   jeff_brown@pol.com
 "What's going to happen?"   "Something wonderful..."   -- '2010'


Article 19437 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: In Dramatic Confrontation, Irving Convicts Lipstadt of Lying
In-Reply-To: wmcguire@world.std.com's message of Thu, 24 Nov 1994 14:08:22 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  <3alusa$b37@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
	 <1994Nov23.061547.34601@miavx1>
	 
Date: Fri, 25 Nov 1994 08:09:51 GMT
Lines: 32


From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
>More deranged ravings and lies from Barry Shein, our resident
>crypto-Kahanist and fanatical tribalist.

Mr McGuire, our resident Nazi apologist, has repeatedly refused to
back this assertion.

That Kahane has always disgusted me means not one whit to him.

For Mr McGuire is a Nazi, he will tell YOU what you believe.

That is precisely what the Nazis did as they dragged 2nd and 3rd
generation Christians out of their beds, informed them they were Jews
by some great-grandmother's half-sister or whatever, and sent them to
their death.

This is Mr McGuire.

So where is the text of that Jewish Press article, Mr McGuire?

Were you lying about that also?

So much volume of quotes from your scanner, yet this one goes missing.

You have been caught lying once too often Mr McGuire.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 19438 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Re: Hoffman^2, hate literature, and ignorance
References: 
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Lines: 600
Message-ID: <1994Nov28.190940.28524@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 94 19:09:40 GMT

With regard to Michael Hoffman's latest tome, I'd like to back up a
bit and begin with a comment of mine:

> Mr.  Hoffman, it should be noted, has a vested interest in attacking 
> Canadian statutes, as he earns his living selling Holocaust 
> denial and racist literature, in the manner of his apparent hero, 
> Ernst Zu"ndel, and claims that a book he authored was seized at 
> the border.  It would seem that Mr. Hoffman is simply upset that Canadian 
> Customs has denied him an opportunity to profit by selling his hate 
> literature in Canada, and he finds himself frustrated by the 
> loss of income.  

To which Mr. Hoffman responded:

     Oh, that is perspicacious of you, McVay.  In fact, at long last,
     you have found me out by dint of your exceptional powers of
     deduction.  Yessir, the reason I am against the government of
     Canada banning revisionist literature is simply because I am
     >>upset at Canadaian Customs.<< 

I find it interesting that Mr.  Hoffman avoids dealing with the
reality of his wish to earn Canadian dollars here, flogging his
literature.  It is, after all, a reality that all should understand.

He continues:

     "One problem with your brilliant deduction: I was >upset< about
     the Canadian inquisition against writers as far back as 1984 when
     I had yet to author any books of my own.  Perhaps I had my palm
     read and learned that I would be writing several books and one of
     them was going to be banned in Canada, therefore as a kind of
     pre-emptive strike, I protested Canadas prosecution of
     revisionists?  It..."

We have only Mr.  Hoffman's unsubstantiated word for that.  Perhaps he
will avail himself of this opportunity to demonstrate the truth of his
assertion by providing us with some evidence of this noble activity on
behalf of human rights and dignity?  This is, after all, the same
learned human rights activist who recently wrote: "She tucked the ten
dollar bill under her mattress and pulled up her panties as the semen
streamed from her pussy," in response to information posted here about
funding efforts made on my behalf.  It should therefore come as no
surprise that some folks here may be reluctant to take anything Mr.
Hoffman has to offer with any more than a fractional grain of salt.

Mr.  Hoffman has yet to demonstrate that revisionists are prosecuted
here in Canada.  That Keegstra and Zu"ndel have been prosecuted is
certainly true, but neither of them qualify as historical
revisionists; both are Holocaust deniers.  Has Arno Mayer's work been
stopped at the border?  Has Arno Mayer been denied entry into Canada?
He is, after all, a true scholastic revisionist...

While Mr.  Hoffman and his compatriots may well think it desirable to
pull the wool over the world's eyes by claiming the respectable veneer
of the historical revisionist, the reality is quite different, and the
attempt fails.  There is a distinct difference between revisionists
(like Arno Mayer) and Holocaust deniers.  Mr.  Mayer has offered an
unpopular thesis with regard to the Holocaust, but, as an academic
historian, he has not, even remotely, attempted to deny the existence
of the gas chambers, or the Holocaust itself.

While Mr.  Hoffman will see these comments as "splitting hairs," I
feel they are clearly relevant, and clearly accurate.

     "...could not be of course that I am opposed to censorship and
     the imprisonment of writers and publishers on principle, could
     it?  Naw, I guess not, because to believe that about this writer
     would be to concede to me some aspect of humanity and you
     humanitarians are loathe to do that."

I leave questions of Mr. Hoffman's humanity to others; it is not
a relevant issue here. 

To the following comment,

> bothered to read either judgement. (If he _has_ read them, then his
> failure to provide an analysis damns him equally, since both
> judgements provide a clear, concise, and extensive rebuttal of his
 
Mr. Hoffman makes a curious leap:

     Please, no >demands< Mr.  McVay.  I am not acceding to demands
     from mental midgets this week.  I have made a number of demands
     upon you by inference, such as that you admit the overwhelming
     reality of the existence of a Canadian inquisition against
     revisionists of ten years duration.

I have, of course, demanded nothing. I simply pointed out, since
Mr. Hoffman continues to insist that Canadian law permits arrest for
denial of the Holocaust, and since the Supreme Court of Canada has
clearly set important precident in this regard, that Mr. Hoffman
should provide his analysis of these decisions. In doing so, he would
demonstrate that these judgements do not preclude conviction for
Holocaust denial.

Our tradition of Common Law provides a living, flexible law, which
changes with time and cultural context. Such law is, after all, based
upon precident, not words engraved in stone. In Canada, as in the
United States, laws are constantly in a state of flux. Injustices that
once were deemed legally acceptable are rejected or modified as a
matter of course. Mr. Hoffman, in failing to address the judgements,
and their obvious import, would have us believe that Canadian laws
used to arrest and convict Holocaust deniers still have legal merit,
when, in fact, it seems clear that he is incorrect. Why he seems so
reluctant to address this _very_ relevant issue is a puzzlement.

Mr. Hoffman also continues to imply that I support and condone such
efforts, in spite of the reality that I made my position clear when he
asked:

     Moreover, are you or are you not a supporter, upholder and
     fellow-traveler of the Canadian government prosecution and
     Zionist and misnamed >>human rights<< groups in Canada who seek
     to imprison publisher Ernst Zundel and school teacher Jim
     Keegstra and ban writer David Irving?  No one but a cop would
     support the imprisonment of publishers and teachers and a ban on
     writers.  What is your considered position on this Canadian
     inquisition, Patrolman McVay?

     Do you or do you not support absolute freedom of speech, press
     and travel for revisionists in Canada?

To which I responded, not only within this forum, but in newspapers,
magazines, and television, with a clear, concise "No." Not only did I
respond by saying that I did _not_ support previous legal manuevers
against Zu"ndel, Keegstra, Irving, et al., I did so long before Mr.
Hoffman arrived on the scene. He, however, in article after article,
continues to imply that I support the prosecution of Holocaust
deniers, completely ignoring my clear response to the questions posed
above.
 
In a previous article, I continued my comments relating to Mr.
Hoffman's failure to provide his analysis of the judgements in
question:

> Clearly, Mr. Hoffman has nothing to gain, and a great deal to lose, by
> acquainting himself with the reality of the Court's decisions. Should
> he actually read the judgements, he would be forced to conclude that
> his continuing blather regarding Canadian law has no factual basis.

Mr. Hoffman offered personal opinion, unsupported by reference to the
judgements in question, saying:

     I have read the decisions and they do not lead me to conclude
     that there is free speech or free press for revisionists in
     Canada.  The Canadian government, the Jewish establishment and a
     sizeable portion of the mass media fought to have Zundels 1988
     conviction upheld.  

Mr. Hoffman's conclusions are clearly not based upon legal reality; 
perhaps that is why he appears reluctant to address the judgement
specifics - if, as he claims, he _has_ read them, he then knows full
well that they will not support his "conclusions." Under our system of
law, it matters not one whit what the any level of government (Mr.
Hoffman fails to define "Canadian government" within the context of
his remarks, and perhaps it is time he did) or the "Jewish
establishment and a sizeable portion of the mass media" want. The
_law_ remains the final arbiter in such matters. In short, when asked
to address the issue of the _law_, as defined by the Supreme Court of
Canada, Mr. Hoffman attempts to distract the discussion, perhaps
because he knows full well that the legal precident has been set, and
that it does not, in any way, shape, or form, support his contentions.

     This is critical to understanding the lynch mob atmosphere toward
     revisionists in Canada.  No foundation came to Zundels aid.
     Canadian society as a whole was willing to see him go to prison
     for publishing a controversial history pamphlet.

Again, Mr. Hoffman adroitly sidesteps the issue of the _law_. As to
what "Canadian society as a whole" is or is not willing to do, one can
only wonder where Mr. Hoffman got his information. It is my feeling
that the Supreme Court of Canada has expressed the wishes of "Canadian
Society as a whole" by overturning the convictions it addressed.

     Because he nearly bankrupted himself to hire courageous lawyers
     like Doug Christie (who himself was almost disbarred for acting
     as Zundels lawyer)--because Zundel fought the system and was
     acquitted on a false news charge pertaining to his publication of
     the book >Did Six Million Really Die?<-- in no way provides any
     grounds for Mr.  McVays ludicrous whitewash of the Canadian legal
     system.  

Again, Mr. Hoffman continues to contend that I have misrepresented the
Canadian legal system. In doing so, he again fails to address the
response of the very system he claims I have "whitewashed," through
his failure to address the judgements, which tell a quite different
story about that system, and the society that spawned and supports it.

     The eight year ordeal of Ernst Zundel certainly has a chilling
     effect on all other would-be revisionist publishers, espeially
     those without the organizing talent, oratorical skills and
     fund-raising ability of an Ernst Zundel.  Zundel can still be

Zu"ndel's "fund-raising activity" consists, in part, of selling Nazi
literature all over the world. And he continues to do so, from Canada,
where Mr. Hoffman would have us believe that such things are not
permitted.

     charged under any number of other laws for his >Holocaust<
     revisionist printing.  If he is unable to afford to appeal a
     resulting conviction he will go to prison.  Canada customs
     continues to interdict revisionist books.  Canada continues to

Mr. Hoffman returns to his real gripe: He cannot sell his books in
Canada.

     prosecute revisionists (Ball and Collins).  Canada continues to
     ban revisionists (David Irving) so what the heck are you talking
     about?  Why are you imposing on people on the Internet with your
     completely incompetent and asinine insistence that there is no
     repression of revisionists in the face of all documentation to
     the contrary?

See above, Mr. Hoffman. Show us how your "conclusions" regarding the
Supreme Court decisions are supported by the learned justices.

Mr. Hoffman goes on to cite the Vancouver Sun article which says that
the B.C. Human Rights Council has decided to charge Doug Collins under
the Human Rights Amendment Act (Bill 33). I pointed out to Mr. Hoffman
that provicial governments "do not make Canadian law." I explained by
saying that the law in question is, as are all such, subject to review
by higher courts. 

Anita Hagen, the Minister of Education, demonstrated that the
provincial government was well aware of this when she wrote an op-ed
piece in the Victoria Times-Colonist, in July of last year:

"In other words, the issue of free speech is not cut and dried.  Human
Rights Councils must, on a case-by-case basis, balance the
individual's right to free speech with the rights of society as a
whole.  It's a tough challenge, no question.  But it's one that B.C.'s
nationally recognized Human Rights Council can meet.  In addition to
its own procedural safeguards against frivolous complaints or
arbitrary actions, the council's decisions are subject to judicial
review by the courts."

(Hagen's full editorial is available from the archives here - send the
command GET FASCISM/CANADA/BC HAGEN.0793 to listserv
@oneb.almanac.bc.ca to receive it by return mail.)

I closed my comment by stating my belief that the use of such
legislation to charge Collins would not stand the legal tests imposed
by the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Mr. Hoffman's
response...

     Is the hand quicker than the eye?McVay hopes so because
     he is running a shell game here.  Remember this is the guy who
     got himself in some deep credibility problems by making the claim
     that there is no prosecution of revisionists in Canada.

I challenge Mr. Hoffman to provide a quote from any article I have
written which supports this claim. While we're waiting for him to do
so, I offer the following snippets from past exchanges for your
consideration:

Mr. Hoffman:

     No, Mr.  McVay you have not responded to the charge.  You have
     not answered my detailed questions on your position on your
     government and your human rights (so-called) groups and your
     Canadian Zionist establishment's policy of prosecuting and
     seeking to imprison Zundel and Keegstra and to jail, deport and
     ban writer David Irving.  Will you kindly go on record herein
     condemning the horrid Canadian-Zionist policy of prosecuting
     publishers, teachers and writers?  Will you write to the relevant
     Canadian authorities like S.  Littman, S.  Citron and the
     government of Canada, protesting this inquisition?  What is the
     position of the Pharisee-worshipping church that pays you on this
     issue?

[We'll get back to the "Pharisee-worshipping church" in a moment]

And I replied:

"Isn't it cute, the way Hoffie tries to avoid the original issue,
which was whether or not I supported the "Canadian inquisition"
[which in itself demonstrated Hoffie's ignorance of Canadian juris
prudence, but that's another tale] vis a vis a gaggle of hate
mongers and one pseudo-historian? Apparently, there is something
about the word "no" that confuses the lad... which syllable was it,
do you think?"

In a parallel discussion with Michael Stein, Hoffman added:

     Oh sure, Stein, there's this "Social Security Cult" see and
     they've got 500 movies playing on television, a museum in
     California and the nation's capital, a national "Yam
     HaShoaSecurity" Day and you get arrested in Canada, Germany,
     France and Sweden if you deny it.

... to which I commented:

"Mr. Hoffman, never one to let facts stand in his way, once again
 shows his complete ignorance with regard to Canadian law.
 Those who, unlike Mr. Hoffman and Mr. McGuire, _are_ interested in
 factual, legal reality, are invited to peruse the archives here.

 With very little effort, they will find the Supreme Court of Canada
 decision regarding Mr. Keegstra, and the SCC decision with regard to
 Ernst Zu"ndel. Mr. Keegstra's decision may be obtained by sending
 the following command to listserv@oneb.almanac.bc.ca:

 get fascism/canada/alberta keegstra.scc.1 
 get fascism/canada/alberta keegstra.scc.2 
 get fascism/canada/alberta keegstra.scc.3 
 get fascism/canada/alberta keegstra.scc.4 

 For Zu"ndel, include:

 get holocaust/canada zundel.sccj

 I might also add that I know of no Canadian law which makes denial
 of the Holocaust an offense. The Zundel case dealt with the
 demolition of the "publishing false news" matter as well. 

 In short, Mr. Hoffman is a liar."

In short, Mr. Hoffman still seems confused about the word "no," and
apparently hopes everyone here has a very short memory. The man
continues: 

     But journalist Doug Collins is being prosecuted now.  McVay
     cannot admit he was wrong.  

See above, Mr. Hoffman. I have _never_ claimed that Holocaust deniers
were not prosecuted in Canada. What I _have_ said is clear: First,
that there is no law against Holocaust denial in Canada, and, second,
that existing laws used for the purpose of prosecuting deniers have
been rejected by the Supreme Court of Canada. Finally, I have added
that I do not believe any prosecution of Mr. Collins, under British
Columbia statutes, will stand.

     He is waging a propaganda war and he cannot make such honest
     admissions under those conditions.  So he is stuck.  He has
     chosen to prevaricate, so at the least we can enjoy watching him
     sweat.  The above piece of detritus is quite perspiration-laden.

There is great irony in being called a liar by Michael Hoffman, the
same Michael Hoffman who has previously made the following statements,
while failing to provide a shred of evidentiary support for them:

     No one but a cop would support the imprisonment of publishers and
     teachers and a ban on writers.  What is your considered position
     on this Canadian inquisition, Patrolman McVay?  

     Mr.  McVay is well paid for spying on us here on the Internet.  A
     nice Judeo-Christian church in Canada is paying him a salary.

     What is the position of the Pharisee-worshipping church that pays
     you on this issue?

Since I am neither a "cop," or "police agent," nor being paid by any
church, I have repeatedly asked Mr. Hoffman to provide evidence for
these spurious claims. He has, of course, failed to do so, as he will
continue to fail, since the claims are patent nonsense. That reality,
however, has not prevented Mr. Hoffman from continuing to procede in
the same fashion, making claims and charges he is totally incapable of
proving. This from the man who prattles about his respect for the
principles of truth and justice...

     To weasel out of his looney claim that Canada has no repression
     against revisionists, he must say that the Act under which
     Collins has been charged >>cannot stand the legal tests imposed
     by the Canadian Charter of Rights.<< But if that was the case,
     the prosecutors would have refused to charge Collins.  Yet, they
     have charged him.  

Mr. Hoffman has yet to demonstrate that I have claimed, here or
anywhere else, that Holocaust deniers have not suffered from repression.
They clearly have, and the _law_ has, just as clearly, come down
_against_ such repression. That is, in my opinion, precisely why Mr.
Hoffman would rather not address the SCC judgements.

The claim that prosecutors would not bring charges against Mr.
Collins, knowing that the law would not meet the standards imposed by
the Charter, is nonsense. Prosecutors, in the United States as well as
Canada, often do exactly that. The legal history of both countries
abounds with such prosecutions. That is, after all, precisely why an
appeal process exists. Surely Mr. Hoffman knows that, and one can only
wonder why he would make such a patently silly comment.

     [Woeful projection of the Trials of Collins at the hands of the
     "Jewish Establishement"]

     This entire ordeal of inquistion against Collins is shrugged off
     by McVay on the grounds that, >>Ahh, the Charter will vindicate
     him.<< But wait--vindicate him from what?McVay claims there is no
     prosecution of revisionists in Canada, so why the need for
     vindication for something that is not even happening?  And they
     talk of >>Holocaust denial<>silly claim<< that
     Canada is dominated by Jews, who has screamed the loudest for the
     crucifixion of Ernst Zundel?Who insisted on a SECOND trial of him
     after the first one was thrown out on the basis of Judge Lockes
     gortesque trial errors and prejudice?  

If Mr. Hoffman is going to continue to insist that Canada is
"dominated by Jews," then perhaps he should document the claim, rather
than continue to avoid doing so by blathering on about who screams the
loudest.  Just _who_ are these Jews who "dominate" Canada, Mr.
Hoffman? Pierre Trudeau? Parizeau? Mr. Cretien? John Turner? Brian
Mulroney? Name them, Mr. Hoffman, and explain, in a precise, documented
manner, how they "dominate." Name names, Mr. Hoffman, and quit
avoiding the issue, in the faint hope it will go away.

     Is McVay trying to say that the taxpayers of Canada are urging
     these inquisitions?Those suckers are not even allowed to
     determine how much these prosecutions are costing them (estimates
     are in the tens of millions of dollars).  The taxpayers tolerate
     it.  They are sheeple.  Goyim.  Like any mob at any hanging tree
     they will mouth the cliches of the largest mouths and the biggest
     brutes.  They will acquisece to anything.  But the charge is led
     by hysterical Khazars, traumatized by the morbid and never-ending
     seance that is their gas chamber, Holy Hoax religion.  

Name the "hysterical Khazars," Mr. Hoffman, and cite their speeches,
their books; demonstrate how their words "dominated" the government
and the people of Canada on this matter. So far, it would seem that
only Mr. Hoffman adopts the "big mouth" technique, in his attempt to
carry the day with decibles instead of facts.

[...]

Mr.  Hoffman then asks how "defending the Germans against Spielbergs
defamatory stereotypes of German soldiers >spewing venom<," which
leads me to wonder which version of "Shindler's List" _he_ watched.
The one I watched provided an accurate portrayal of the behavior of
the Nazi troops during the period. Is Mr. Hoffman (or Mr. Collins, for
that matter) claiming that German soldiers didn't shoot Jews, or
persecute them? Does Mr. Hoffman reside in Mr. Gannon's 25th.
universe?

[...]

     Sorry, McVay.  I battle censorship on principle.  Your attempt to
     squeeze me into a handy little ADL stereotype so I can be
     dismissed from human consideration is going to fail.  I am my own
     person and I always have been.  I am a wild card even among
     revisionists.  Try to get beyond your circumscribed world of
     Holocaust hackdom and see people for what they are.  

I think I have a very clear view of what Mr. Hoffman is, and what he
represents. I think most readers here are also clear in that regard. (I
have no idea what the ADL has to say about Mr. Hoffman - I've never
spoken to them.)

[...]

     Try this one on for size, Mr.  McVay: For eight years Ernst
     Zundel was forbidden to write or speak about the >>Holocaust<<
     under pain of prison and deportation.  

History, Mr. Hoffman, history. Read the Supreme Court judgements.

     My book, >>The Great Holocaust Trial<< documents who was 
     behind his prosecution.  

Do enlighten us, Mr. Hoffman. So far, you have shown yourself
disinterested in doing so, prefering instead to sow wild accusations
and innuendo rather than deal with facts.

     The fact that after Jewish-dominated Canada had its way with
     Zundel for eight years, he has won a respite from relentless
     persecution, does not signify that he is no longer subject to
     persecution in Canada.  

 Mr. Hoffman continues to mouth his baseless assertions about
"Jewish domination" of Canada, and now peers into his crystal ball to
project a future which supports his reality tunnel. Perhaps Mr.
Zu"ndel should return to Germany, where he would be more comfortable,
or move south of the border, where I'm certain he would find a happy,
carefree future within Mr. Hoffman's crystal ball.

[...]

     True, in the eyes of a thought cop, this would indicate that
     there is no prosecution of revisionists; that the law they have
     been charged under does not exist and the reason they were
     charged has nothing to do with revisionism.  You can peddle that
     tripe to your local Trotskyite Lodge and it will be believed.  On
     the worldwide Internet it is going to cause you a few problems.  

Where, Mr. Hoffman, have I said there was no prosecution of Holocaust
deniers? Where have I said that the law (B.C.'s Human Rights
Amendment, Bill 33) does not exist? Nowhere, Mr. Hoffman, nowhere.

[gratuitous insults deleted]

Interestingly, Mr. Hoffman, who attacks me for "being paid by a
church," a false and unsupportable claim, now concludes his tome by
advertising his wares on the net, thus demonstrating his intention to
continue earning his living off the Holocaust... how apt.

-- 
"Mr XXXXXXX is obviously Jewish and a living  example of why the Nazis 
tried to remove Jews from Europe and short of that, into concentration 
camps for the duration of the war."        (Fritz Berg, June 26, 1994)
                         ==== Nizkor ====


Article 19441 of alt.revisionism:
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From: flax@aristotle.algonet.se (Jonas Flygare)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Put up or shut up, Mr. Hoffman (v 1.02, Round 3)
Date: 25 Nov 1994 08:54:08 GMT
Organization: AlgoNet Public Access Node, Stockholm
Lines: 28
Message-ID: 
References: <1994Nov15.130004.8751@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> 
	<1994Nov20.231422.22266@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
	 
NNTP-Posting-Host: aristotle.algonet.se
In-reply-to: wmcguire@world.std.com's message of Wed, 23 Nov 1994 14:12:57 GMT


>>WARNING<< >>AD HOMINEM BELOW<<
[Wayne hitting a new low deleted]
You seem to have your up's and down's, Wayne. Running out of lithium?
>>AHHHHHH<<< >>HOFFMAN IS RIGHT, THIS IS FUN<<

Am I correct in believing that you will now post and claim that you
are _not_ a revisionist, and that several of your best friends are
jews, but... 

Let's see: You brownnose hoffman2nd, you call Ken a robot, you side
with Irving while implying that anti-revisionists _are_ indeed
censors, and Leninists to boot. You then also state you know a fact
from the "first pages" of her book (Is that at 4000 or 5000 words a
minute, or just looking at the pretty patterns?) and some low remarks,
that might well be an attack on both jews, and women, at the same
time. Add some material that could've been recorded at the nearest
asylum, and you top it off by saying you are just doing this to pass
time while waiting for the other side to answer your insane ravings. 

Gee, I'm really impressed, Wayne, you come across as a well balanced
individual, who is really impartial. Not.

--
Safe PGP key fingerprint =  A7 FA 4D 35 73 0E DB 65  69 D5 D4 E1 02 E6 91 E2 
Unix PGP key fingerprint =  0D 22 64 4D 05 35 53 BA  83 56 7B 56 C6 61 D4 A7 
DNA sequence fingerprint =  0E 21 45 FA 7A 11 34 FE  ED DE AD BE EF 8F 10 71
DNA copyright 1962 - 1994 by Jonas Flygare, Copyright yours before IBM does.


Article 19442 of alt.revisionism:
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From: cave@rand.org (Jonathan Cave)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: In Dramatic Confrontation, Irving Convicts Lipstadt of Lying
Date: 25 Nov 1994 02:05:30 -0800
Organization: RAND, Santa Monica CA
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <3b4cta$2s4@rand.org>
References:  <3alusa$b37@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <1994Nov23.234840.34627@miavx1> <3b318l$8t2@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rand.org

In article <3b318l$8t2@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>,
Annie Alpert  wrote:
[snip[]

>>> Hugh Trevor-Roper: >>No praise is too high for David Irvings 
>indefatigable
>>> scholarly industry.<<
>>

[Referring to Trevor-Roper, Annie remarked:]

>I read something he wrote against Holocaust denial once--a forward to a 
>book or something. If he said soemthing nice about Irving, it must have 
>been a long, long time ago.

I, too, would like to know where T-R wrote this, and in what context.
Having said that, I must say that the quoted statement smacks of Pope:

"...damn with faint priaseaise
assent with civil leer and, by not sneering,
teach the rest to sneer"

...Alexander (who he?) Pope


Article 19443 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: In Dramatic Confrontation, Irving Convicts Lipstadt of Lying
In-Reply-To: cave@rand.org's message of 25 Nov 1994 02:05:30 -0800
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  <3alusa$b37@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
	<1994Nov23.234840.34627@miavx1> <3b318l$8t2@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>
	<3b4cta$2s4@rand.org>
Date: Fri, 25 Nov 1994 10:50:34 GMT
Lines: 21


>[Referring to Trevor-Roper, Annie remarked:]
>
>>I read something he wrote against Holocaust denial once--a forward to a 
>>book or something. If he said soemthing nice about Irving, it must have 
>>been a long, long time ago.

Hugh-Trevor Roper wrote the forward to "The Good Old Days - The
Holocaust as Seen by its Perpetrators and Bystanders", Ernst Klee,
Willie Dressen and Volker Riess (ed.)

If this is a book a holocaust denier would like themselves associated
with then I am a kahanist.

This is a prime source book for those refuting holocaust deniers.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 19447 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!openwx!eskimo!doyal
From: doyal@eskimo.com (Thomas Doyal)
Subject: Re: McGuire and Irving (was: Re: In Dramatic Confrontation, Irving Con
Message-ID: 
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
References:  <3apheo$41b@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>   <3avrcq$gnh@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
Date: Fri, 25 Nov 1994 14:11:12 GMT
Lines: 25

Danny Keren (dzk@cs.brown.edu) wrote:
: Wayne McGuire  wrote:

: # I've read enough Irving and enough Lipstadt to know that Irving
: # could intellectually crush Lipstadt in a debate on just about any
: # subject--he obviously possesses the much more powerful mind,
: # regardless of whether you agree with his conclusions about World
: # War II. He is a major historian.

: A "major historian"?

: It was posted here that he was convicted of slandering
: and lying in his books, even before he became a Holocaust
: denier. No one here denied this. 

response cut here.

If there is anyone who would really like to know what David Irving is 
really like from his own lips e mail me for details about how to obtain his 
speech in Portland Oregon on Oct. 10 of this year.  Why try to decide who 
is right from obviously biased sources. This is undedited videotape so 
you can have his version not an editors. 

Doyal@eskimo.com



Article 19450 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!openwx!eskimo!doyal
From: doyal@eskimo.com (Thomas Doyal)
Subject: Re: McGuire and Irving (was: Re: In Dramatic Confronta
Message-ID: 
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
References:  <3ato2e$58u@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> <5y5Ud8d.hoffman2nd@delphi.com> <3b2auo$rht@info.census.gov> <3b2g1i$amj@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
Date: Fri, 25 Nov 1994 14:43:57 GMT
Lines: 27

Danny Keren (dzk@cs.brown.edu) wrote:
: Wayne, are you willing to address David Irving's outright lies,
: which I quoted here today?

: And are you willing to address his incredibly stupid "analysis"
: of Eichmann's memoirs? I posted about it yesterday, and you
: didn't respond.

: I'll be happy to repost about these two topics, if you missed my
: original articles.

: It was posted here that Irving was taken to court and convicted
: for lying and slandering people in his books even before he became a 
: Holocaust denier. Care to comment?


: -Danny Keren.

Find out what David Irving is really like by e mailing me for details on 
how to obtain his speech in Portland OR which he gave just before the JDL 
instigated riot tried to shut him down in Berkeley CA.  This videotape 
just blows Keren and his nonsense away. 

doyal@eskimo.com 





Article 19451 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McGuire and Irving (was: Re: In Dramatic Confronta
Date: 25 Nov 1994 14:51:19 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <3b4tl7$m78@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References:  <3b2auo$rht@info.census.gov> <3b2g1i$amj@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

Thomas Doyal  wrote:
# Danny Keren (dzk@cs.brown.edu) wrote:

## Wayne, are you willing to address David Irving's outright lies,
## which I quoted here today?

## And are you willing to address his incredibly stupid "analysis"
## of Eichmann's memoirs? I posted about it yesterday, and you
## didn't respond.

## I'll be happy to repost about these two topics, if you missed my
## original articles.

## It was posted here that Irving was taken to court and convicted
## for lying and slandering people in his books even before he became a 
## Holocaust denier. Care to comment?

# Find out what David Irving is really like by e mailing me for details on 
# how to obtain his speech in Portland OR which he gave just before the JDL 
# instigated riot tried to shut him down in Berkeley CA.  This videotape 
# just blows Keren and his nonsense away. 

What a stupid answer.

Can you comment on what I wrote? Irving lied about Leuchter,
it was posted here that he lied in the past and was convicted
in court for that. His interpretation of Eichmann's memoirs
is infantile even when compared to other "revisionist" nonsense.

Can you comment on the three items above?

Do you understand what I'm asking?

Can you comment, directly, on the three items above?


-Danny Keren.




Article 19457 of alt.revisionism:
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From: martev 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Canadian Journalist Prosecuted for Criticizing Schindlers List
Date: Fri, 25 Nov 1994 14:00:18 -0500 (EST)
Lines: 46
Message-ID: 
References:  
	<1994Nov22.005410.1468@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
	
	 
NNTP-Posting-Host: seminole.gate.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To:  


On Thu, 24 Nov 1994, Barry Shein wrote:

> 
> From: martev 
> >Anti Semitism has always been a sick cause, and it seems that hiding 
> >behind these monitors makes it even easier for you and your ilk.....
> >
> >Keep it up, as every post you make, adds to the evidence of your hate and 
> >lack of facts... I have never seen such errors of historical facts and 
> >legalities as yours.
> >
> >Could it have been child abuse YOU suffered?...
> >
> >Sexual dysfuntion, or what?
> >
> >Why so much hate in you?
> 
 > You know, it's funny, just previous to running into your post I was
 > speculating out loud here on about the same thing, a few messages
 > back.
 
This has been quite evident on some other BB's also..  Example, GENIE, the 
Raving raven and his Mungo partner there, until they were both kicked off 
of GENIE for their sickening repitition and other comments..

> Like a ball game whose exciting moment one just cannot let go of.
> 
> I wondered if McGuire had some perverse psychosexual need for this
> masturbatory fascination, it struck me this way also.

Frankly, I don't know, except that he and his ilk are just suffering  
from one very long, orgasm, which just doesn't go away..

Their sighs and moans do sound like it, don't they.....

> Coincidence that we should both independently express this observation
> in such similar ways?
> 
  Coincidence?, doubtful, been obvious to many for many years..

> You be the judge...

I have been for a long time..

Marty


Article 19458 of alt.revisionism:
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From: martev 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McGuire's Anti-Semitism Revealed For All To See
Date: Fri, 25 Nov 1994 14:07:59 -0500 (EST)
Lines: 42
Message-ID: 
References: <8opqk0yNUQ0Q073yn@world.std.com> <3a45gu$4m4@access1.digex.net>   <1994Nov17.212852.809@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>   <5S4Wlqf.hoffman2nd@delphi.com>
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Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To: <5S4Wlqf.hoffman2nd@delphi.com> 



On Wed, 23 Nov 1994 hoffman2nd@delphi.com wrote:

> McGuire's Anti-Semitism Revealed For All To See
>    Responding to: John Baglow 
>  
> John Baglow writes:
> >Why, incidentally, is nazi-motivated hate propaganda deserving of
> >tolerance?
>  
> Baglow is a hardcore inquisitor and censor. He is one of these Orwellian
> true-believers who is going to fight fascist ideas with fascist methods and he
> is so dim he does not even see the irony.
>  
> Baglow writes:
> >What concerns many of us is the deliberate use of Holocaust-denial crap to
> inflict >pain upon the Jewish community...
>  
> This is Khazar-idolatry in extremis. Harsh questions, satire and rebellious
> skepticism are >painful< to the >Jewish community< therefore, irreverent,
> revisionist  blasphemers should be prosecuted in the interest of protecting the
> beloved Master Jewish Race from pain. I say, to every last pompous authority
> figure on this planet of any race or religion: I will question, mock or doubt
> any race, religion or historical belief I please and why not? The >German
> community< has been on the butt end of such treatment for a generation. Who
> solicits their >feelings>?
>  
 Yee gods and little fishes, this kkkreeps orgasm just continues on it's 
 high.

> HEY KIDS! Coming soon: revisionist computer games and comic books! Get on our
> mailing list for the details. Send $3.00 for our catalog and we will send you
> the catalog PLUS some great day-glo Holohoax joke stickers guaranteed to turn
> your school upside down! Write us today. --Wiswell  Ruffin

Lookee here folks, the kkkreep is now asking kids for three bucks. How 
low can one go? Well in this case he is down to and in the gutter. Spread 
his virus among kids.. Fortunately the freak doesn't know that kids are 
to smart for him. His clone, David Cole can't even give away his freakin 
tapes..



Article 19463 of alt.revisionism:
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From: anny@ix.netcom.com (Annie Alpert)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: In Dramatic Confrontation, Irving Convicts Lipstadt of Lying
Date: 25 Nov 1994 21:54:42 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 43
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3b5mf2$ahl@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>
References:  <3alusa$b37@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <1994Nov23.234840.34627@miavx1> <3b318l$8t2@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> <3b4cta$2s4@rand.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ix-nwk5-22.ix.netcom.com

In <3b4cta$2s4@rand.org> cave@rand.org (Jonathan Cave) writes: 

>
>In article <3b318l$8t2@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>,
>Annie Alpert  wrote:
>[snip[]
>
>>>> Hugh Trevor-Roper: >>No praise is too high for David Irvings 
>>indefatigable
>>>> scholarly industry.<<
>>>
>
>[Referring to Trevor-Roper, Annie remarked:]
>
>>I read something he wrote against Holocaust denial once--a forward to 
a 
>>book or something. If he said soemthing nice about Irving, it must 
have 
>>been a long, long time ago.
>
>I, too, would like to know where T-R wrote this, and in what context.
>Having said that, I must say that the quoted statement smacks of Pope:
>
>"...damn with faint priaseaise
>assent with civil leer and, by not sneering,
>teach the rest to sneer"
>
>...Alexander (who he?) Pope
>

Hugh Trevor-Roper is also Lord Dacre of Glanton.  He wrote the Foreword 
to an excellent (IMO) book under this name: "The Good Old Days: The 
Holocaust as seen by its Perpetrators and Bystanders" Klee, Dressen and 
Reiss, Free Press, 1988.

The forward is markedly "exterminationist" (in the currently fashionable 
phrasing employed by some on this Newsgroup).  No mention of Irving, 
though.
-- 
* * * * * * * * * 
Annie Alpert

I've found a new home on NETCOM.  EMAIL me here if you like.


Article 19466 of alt.revisionism:
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From: t08o@leda.sun.csd.unb.ca (Keith Morrison)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McGuire and Irving (was: Re: In Dramatic Confrontation, Irving Con
Date: 25 Nov 1994 23:45:29 GMT
Organization: University of New Brunswick, Fredericton, NB, Canada
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <3b5sup$nca@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>
References:   <3avrcq$gnh@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: leda.sun.csd.unb.ca

From: doyal@eskimo.com (Thomas Doyal)
Message-ID: 

>If there is anyone who would really like to know what David Irving is 
>really like from his own lips e mail me for details about how to obtain his 
>speech in Portland Oregon on Oct. 10 of this year.  Why try to decide who 
>is right from obviously biased sources. This is undedited videotape so 
>you can have his version not an editors. 

You still haven't answered my question that I asked when you first posted
the transcript of that tape:  where is the "prison holding center" at
Pearson International Airport in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, that Irving
claims he was held in while awaiting the plane that shipped him out of
the country?

---------------------------------------------------------------

Keith Morrison

************************************************************
*t08o@unb.ca  *  My views are not those of the University  *
***************  of New Brunswick.  UNB never has views on *
*             *  on anything, ever.                        *
************************************************************


Article 19469 of alt.revisionism:
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From: jeff_brown@pol.com (Jeffrey G. Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: In Dramatic Confrontation, Irving Convicts Lipstadt of Lying
Date: 26 Nov 1994 03:05:47 GMT
Organization: Internet Access Cincinnati 513-887-8877
Lines: 30
Message-ID: 
References:  <3alusa$b37@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <5Q5VlIU.hoffman2nd@delphi.com> <1994Nov23.234840.34627@miavx1> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: ip041220.iac.net

In article , wmcguire@world.std.com
(Wayne McGuire) wrote:

> In article <1994Nov23.234840.34627@miavx1>,
> bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov) wrote:
> 
> //> Hugh Trevor-Roper: >>No praise is too high for David Irvings indefatigable
> //> scholarly industry.<<
> //
> //Who is Hugh Trevor-Roper?
> 
> Who is Hugh Trevor-Roper ?
> 
> And the poser of this amazing question presumes to be able to
> pass judgement on the work of David Irving?

Note that extremely well-read and distinguished Hahvaahd graduate McGuire
managed to avoid answering a direct question by resorting to sarcasm once
more. Nor did he answer (or even quote) the other question -- that of the
context in which Hugh Trevor-Roper allegedly made this remark.

Wassa matta, Wayne -- couldn't find a book review that contained this
information? (God forbid Wayne should actually read a book -- all the best
history is in book reviews, doncha know.)

JGB

=====================================================================
Jeffrey G. Brown                                   jeff_brown@pol.com
 "What's going to happen?"   "Something wonderful..."   -- '2010'


Article 19471 of alt.revisionism:
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
From: staff@rabbit.augs.se (Staffan Friberg)
Subject: Re: In Dramatic Confrontation, Irving Convicts Lipstadt of Lying
Distribution: world
References:  <3alusa$b37@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>  <3b30ia$8ko@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>
X-NewsSoftware: GRn 2.1 Feb 19, 1994
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID: 
Date: Fri, 25 Nov 94 22:43:28 CET
Organization: Amiga User Group - Sweden
Lines: 26

In article <3b30ia$8ko@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> anny@ix.netcom.com (Annie Alpert) writes:

> In  bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) 
> writes: 

> >Is there really anyone here remaining who is fooled in the slightest
> >by Mr McGuire's fabrications and cheap and tawdry attempts at
> >propaganda?
> 
> Not me, anyway......

Me neither...

-- 

                                                            //
                                                           //
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ \\ //  AMIGA +++
+ Staffan Friberg                   +  EMail:           \X/           +
+ Undergraduate student  Chemistry  +                                 +
+ Linkvping University              +  InterNet: staff@rabbit.augs.se +
+ Sweden                            +  FidoNet:  2:204/404.2  or      +
+                                   +            2:204/418.9          +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Don't laugh - this is science"
                     (James Randi)


Article 19481 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McGuire and Irving (was: Re: In Dramatic Confrontation, Irving Con
Date: 26 Nov 1994 00:00 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 34
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <26NOV199400003852@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References:  <3apheo$41b@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>   
NNTP-Posting-Host: misvms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

doyal@eskimo.com (Thomas Doyal) writes...
}Danny Keren (dzk@cs.brown.edu) wrote:
}: Wayne McGuire  wrote:

}: # I've read enough Irving and enough Lipstadt to know that Irving
}: # could intellectually crush Lipstadt in a debate on just about any
}: # subject--he obviously possesses the much more powerful mind,
}: # regardless of whether you agree with his conclusions about World
}: # War II. He is a major historian.

}: A "major historian"?

}: It was posted here that he was convicted of slandering
}: and lying in his books, even before he became a Holocaust
}: denier. No one here denied this. 

}response cut here.

}If there is anyone who would really like to know what David Irving is 
}really like from his own lips e mail me for details about how to obtain his 
}speech in Portland Oregon on Oct. 10 of this year.  Why try to decide who 
}is right from obviously biased sources. This is undedited videotape so 
}you can have his version not an editors. 

    Yes, by all means get the tape!

    [1] Common and easy access to the tape is a step towards dispelling the
    accusations that people are trying to shut the revisionists up.

    [2] If the actual tape comes across anything like the transcripts that
    were posted here, Irving's is his own worst enemy.

===========================================================================
daniel david mittleman     -     danny@arizona.edu     -     (602) 621-2932


Article 19487 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mattk@summit.novell.com (Kaufman M.E.)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McGuire and Irving (was: Re: In Dramatic Confrontation, Irving Con
Date: 26 Nov 1994 16:59:06 GMT
Organization: Novell
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <3b7pgq$6h7@bird.summit.novell.com>
References:  <3apheo$41b@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>   <3avrcq$gnh@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: langsvr1.summit.novell.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]

Thomas Doyal (doyal@eskimo.com) wrote:
: Danny Keren (dzk@cs.brown.edu) wrote:

: : A "major historian"?

: : It was posted here that he was convicted of slandering
: : and lying in his books, even before he became a Holocaust
: : denier. No one here denied this. 

: response cut here.

Coward. Keren provides some of Irving's historical record, like being
successfully sued for libel and being condemned by the British Parliament,
and you cut it out. Keren didn't even include the interview from Skeptic
magazine that showed Irving doing his level best to misconstrue
what Eichmann meant when he talked about exterminating Jews.

Tell ou what Mr. Doyal-the-coward. Why don't you transcribe what you
feel are the relevant parts of the videotaped program and post them? Don't
try to make a buck off of it although that'd be out of character from all
the denier profiteers who seem to wallow here. Go ahead and post it,
coward. You wont' - wouldn't want to get your snout far from the
denier trough, to borrow a phrase from KOTM nominee hoffman^2.

: If there is anyone who would really like to know what David Irving is 
: really like from his own lips e mail me for details about how to obtain his 
: speech in Portland Oregon on Oct. 10 of this year.  Why try to decide who 
: is right from obviously biased sources. This is undedited videotape so 
: you can have his version not an editors. 

Transcribe and post the text if you dare coward.


Matt
--
Don't anthropomorph-|copyright 1994, mattk@summit.novell.com. All rights
ize computers. They |reserved. Permission for reproduction by USENET and like
don't like it.      |free facilities explicitly allowed. No other reproduction
                    |rights are granted or implied.


Article 19531 of alt.revisionism:
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: In Dramatic Confrontation, Irving Convicts Lipstadt of Lying
Message-ID: <1994Nov27.015626.34719@miavx1>
From: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov)
Date: 27 Nov 94 01:56:26 -0500
References:  <3alusa$b37@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>   
 
Organization: Miami University
Lines: 43

In article , wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) writes:
> In article <1994Nov23.234840.34627@miavx1>,
> bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov) wrote:
> 
> //> Hugh Trevor-Roper: >>No praise is too high for David Irvings indefatigable
> //> scholarly industry.<<
> //
> //Who is Hugh Trevor-Roper?
> 
> Who is Hugh Trevor-Roper ?
> 
> And the poser of this amazing question presumes to be able to
> pass judgement on the work of David Irving?


odd. 

A post or so ago, you spent 253 lines deriding "anti-revisionists"
for engaging in slander and abuse.  I think you suggested (to put
it mildly) that we focus on the content of their posts rather than 
engage in name calling and pointless insults.  

And now, you lay this piece before us.  I honestly didn't know the
man at all, and it has _zero_ bearing on the rest of my posts, as I've
never claimed to be a historian or a Hitler-expert.

Having seen examples of Irving's sleight-of-hand and read his 
writings _firsthand_, I'd consider myself able to form an opinion
on Irving.

....particularly compared to a person who slams books that
he's never even _read_....

I've also recently posted a short bio about him and a review 
of his book "Hitler's War".  Would you care to comment on them,
or are you just "shooting yourself in the foot" by insulting me?


=======================================================================
Brian Harmon         "We are most unfair to God: we do not allow
Miami University	   	him to sin.." 
Oxford, Ohio 45056  			-- Friedrich Nietzsche
--------------bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu--------------------------


Article 19533 of alt.revisionism:
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: In Dramatic Confrontation, Irving Convicts Lipstadt of Lying
Message-ID: <1994Nov27.021145.34721@miavx1>
From: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov)
Date: 27 Nov 94 02:11:45 -0500
References:    
Organization: Miami University
Lines: 39

In article , wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) writes:
> In article ,

> More deranged ravings and lies from Barry Shein, our resident
> crypto-Kahanist and fanatical tribalist. I haven't read enough
> Irving to pass judgement on his work one way or the other. I've

Well, you did refer to Irving as a "major historian" with more 
credibility than lipstadt.   

Sounds like a judgement to me.

btw, I like the example of slander that began your paragraph.
I'd hate to forget what slander is, but your convenient examples
keep the proper meaning of the term close at hand.

> newsgroup. I also know enough about the world of historical
> scholarship to know that Irving is taken seriously--much more
> seriously than, say Deborah Lipstadt or Jacques (?) Pressac, whom
> many of the anti-revisionists here have tried to pass off as
> serious thinkers.

sheesh.  I suppose you can prove this assertion of yours
with something other than invoking your Superior Mental 
Powers (tm)???

> When I've challenged you for your list of authors and works,
> you've come up empty-handed. I challenge you again, Shein. List
> the works that you are capable of discussing here in depth. Put
> up or shut up.

Well Wayne, you're not the moderator here, fortunately for us.

-- 
=======================================================================
Brian Harmon         "We are most unfair to God: we do not allow
Miami University	   	him to sin.." 
Oxford, Ohio 45056  			-- Friedrich Nietzsche
--------------bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu--------------------------


Article 19546 of alt.revisionism:
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From: stara@fas.harvard.edu (Felix Vagabond)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: An Evaluation of the Irving-Lipstadt and McVay-Canada Debates by Michael A. Hoffman II
Date: 27 Nov 1994 17:53:28 GMT
Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <3bah2o$13t@decaxp.harvard.edu>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: fas.harvard.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]




 Here comes the savant!!!!!!! Hey how about that pundit Hoffman and his derk?
 It's amazing how such lunatic can spend so much time typing or maybe scaning
 such zany minds. Well reading through his harebrained no wonder the guy is 
 erratic. Wayne is in need of inner nostrum and so Michael Hof/man? Yes he
 belong to ein hof wie ein bauarbeiter. 
--
==============================================================================
  ( No memorial can ever exhibit or impart the holocaust of SIX MILLION Jews)

                   VIGILANS.ET AUDAX.SEMPER PARATUS.
              
==============================================================================



Article 19549 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!darwin.sura.net!news1.census.gov!info.census.gov!not-for-mail
From: lnyman@info.census.gov (Lisa Nyman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Victims of the Thought Police
Date: 27 Nov 1994 13:39:47 -0500
Organization: US Census Bureau
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <3bajpj$2al@info.census.gov>
References:    
NNTP-Posting-Host: info.census.gov

In article ,   wrote:
>That is what we were disputing: whether or not the
>store had BANNED Dahls books. Obviously they had. Got it?

So with the term 'banned' I must assume that this store was the
ONLY outlet possible for the distribution of these books.  Is that
a correct assumption?  


-- 
Lisa W. Nyman   301-763-6005   | Back by popular demand: |
--------------------------------------------------|-------------------------|
SF-19902.95-xy7/23(g) Standard Disclaimer on file |    Life's too short to  |
in the Central Office. I speak for me, Not U.S.   |   wear ugly underwear.  |


Article 19555 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!hookup!interlog.com!eye.interlog.com!eye
From: eye@interlog.com (eye WEEKLY)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Squealing of Hoffman
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 1994 15:20:45 -0500
Organization: Toronto's Arts Newspaper
Lines: 18
Message-ID: 
References:    
NNTP-Posting-Host: eye.interlog.com
X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev B]

codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:

> I'm talking about the Holocaust promoters who destroyed the 
> careers of Ernst Zuendel ...

Thank you, Ross.  That's my chuckle for the week.

What, pray tell, was Herr Zundel's career before it was "destroyed"?  If I 
recall, he wrote and promoted a book claiming UFOs were secret Nazi weapons 
and that Hitler was alive and well and living inside a hole in the Earth at 
the South Pole (a hole from which all flying saucers emanate)... 

Alas... such a promising career, cut so tragically short.

Ken.





Article 19556 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu!hudson.lm.com!news.pop.psu.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!tequesta.gate.net!sysop
From: martev 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Canadian Journalist Prosecuted for Criticizing Schindlers List
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 14:50:30 -0500 (EST)
Lines: 19
Message-ID: 
References:   <1994Nov22.005410.1468@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: hopi.gate.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To:  



Maquire, as a sideliner to all these posts of yours and your fellow 
marchers, it amazes me the amount of hate in you..

I wonder what it can be attributed to?

Anti Semitism has always been a sick cause, and it seems that hiding 
behind these monitors makes it even easier for you and your ilk.....

Keep it up, as every post you make, adds to the evidence of your hate and 
lack of facts... I have never seen such errors of historical facts and 
legalities as yours.

Could it have been child abuse YOU suffered?...

Sexual dysfuntion, or what?

Why so much hate in you?


Article 19564 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!panix!ddsw1!golux.pr.mcs.net!user
From: golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: In Dramatic Confrontation, Irving Convicts Lipstadt of Lying
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 1994 22:17:18 -0600
Organization: MCSNet Services
Lines: 37
Message-ID: 
References:     <1994Nov27.021145.34721@miavx1>
NNTP-Posting-Host: golux.pr.mcs.net

In article <1994Nov27.021145.34721@miavx1>, bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu
(Raskolnikov) wrote:

> In article , wmcguire@world.std.com
(Wayne McGuire) writes:

> > newsgroup. I also know enough about the world of historical
> > scholarship to know that Irving is taken seriously--much more
> > seriously than, say Deborah Lipstadt or Jacques (?) Pressac, whom
> > many of the anti-revisionists here have tried to pass off as
> > serious thinkers.
> 
> sheesh.  I suppose you can prove this assertion of yours
> with something other than invoking your Superior Mental 
> Powers (tm)???

Furthermore, we have yet to hear anything from Mr. McGuire on why Lipstadt
is not a "serious thinker," let alone Pressac.  At least McGuire can say
he's seen Lipstadt's book -- albeit a cursory review of a few pages (was
it 50?) at his hyper-Evelyn-Wood reading speed.  But I would like to see
Mr. McGuire's analytical comparison of Irving, Lipstadt and Pressac, in
terms of showing why Irving is a "major historian" and the others are not
"serious thinkers."

Failing original thought on Mr. McGuire's part, I'd like him to provide us
-- as he is so often wont to do -- some reviews of Irving's, Lipstadt's
and Pressac's work, from whatever sources he can find, and then explain
why Irving is "taken ... much more seriously" than Lipstadt or Pressac.

To recapitulate Mr. McGuire's own words:
> > Put up or shut up.

-- 
D. J. Schaeffer |       The Todal looks like a blob of glup.
golux@mcs.com   |     It makes a sound like rabbits screaming,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^        and smells of old, unopened rooms.
                            -- Thurber, _The 13 Clocks_


Article 19567 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!uunet!ankh.iia.org!ralph.vnet.net!news1.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McGuire and Irving (was: Re: In Dramatic Confrontation, Irving Con
Date: 27 Nov 1994 22:53:25 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <3bbk7l$hv7@access4.digex.net>
References:   <3avrcq$gnh@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article , Thomas Doyal  wrote:
>If there is anyone who would really like to know what David Irving is 
>really like from his own lips e mail me for details about how to obtain his 
>speech in Portland Oregon on Oct. 10 of this year.  Why try to decide who 
>is right from obviously biased sources.

    Of course, David Irving is *totally* objective and unbiased about 
himself....

    Doyal, you never cease to amuse me.

    By the way, have you ever figured out how you got the number of the 
church in Israel, what it was, and in what manner and language you were 
informed that the phone was disconnected?  You never did answer those 
questions....
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 19572 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uunet!ankh.iia.org!ralph.vnet.net!news1.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: An Evaluation of the Irving-Lipstadt and McVay-Canada Debates by Michael A. Hoffman II
Date: 28 Nov 1994 22:44:57 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 275
Message-ID: <3be83p$ctg@access4.digex.net>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article ,   wrote:
>Arnold Friedman, another  >>unimpeachable
>eyewitness<< claimed to have seen color-coded smoke from incineration of
>>>Jews<< based on their body weight and nationality and then admitted to Doug
>Christie that his >>eyewitness<< account was really only based on rumors 
>that he had heard.

    That Friedman was not an eyewitness to this is news to me.  I shall
have to read his testimony to see if you are telling the truth about
Friedman claiming to be an eyewitness to this, then admitting he was not. 
But I find it quite plausible that different fuels can give off different
smoke.  There would be a correlation between nationality and food supply -
there was less food available in Poland than in Hungary.  There is a
further correlation between food supply and body fat - people in an area
where food is scarce will tend to have less fat than people who live where
food is plentiful.  I figured all this out before I even heard that
Friedman had explicitly mentioned *thin* Poles and *fat* Hungarians!  This
idea cannot be dismissed out of hand; it is necessary to conduct an
experiment such as burning a piece of trimmed beef heart (which is
completely lean) and a piece of fatty meat and seeing if they do in fact
give off different smoke. 


>The same held true for the academics: Raul Hilberg admitted there is
>no scientific evidence for even a single gassing.

    Oddly, there is - and it comes from Fred Leuchter.  Cyanide traces 
exist in the Kremas.


>It is remarkable that the other anti-revisionists in alt.revisionism hold
>McGuire in the same contempt or perhaps even more contempt than they hold 
>those who do not believe any Jews were gassed.

    Wayne McGuire has posted things with which I agree, and things with
which I do not agree.  I have very strenuous objections to Wayne's
hypocrisy in criticizing others for name-calling and insults while
engaging in it himself (to name just one example of how the McGuire pot 
calls kettles black).


>Mr. McGuire accepts the central canon of >>The HolocaustStory<< and dissents
>on matters of interpretation: such as when the supposed extermination 
>began and what motivated it[....]

    I have no problem with this, even though I disagree with Arno Mayer
(whose analysis Mr. McGuire has accepted).  This is a subject where
reasonable people may disagree and I am waiting for Wayne to respond to my
arguments that Mayer's analysis on some points is questionable. 


>If >>The Holocaust<< were just a school of history and not a religion, 
>McGuires dissent would be met with interest, probing questions and 
>point-counterpoint exchange within a framework of respectful, scholarly 
>camaraderie. Instead, he has been consigned to outer darkness.

    Yes, but it is because of things like his hypocrisy on matters such 
as personal attack, not his championing Arno Mayer.  I have not seen 
anyone consigning Arno Mayer to outer darkness.  If Wayne McGuire did not 
do things like making defamatory personal insinuations about Ken McVay, 
people would not have such a negative reaction to him.


>It is interesting for example that Danny Keren, in response to some chap who
>claimed the Israelis had destroyed Christian churches, immediately went to 
>the trouble of telephoning Occupied Palestine to see if the sources 
>checked out, yet he will not send $21 to David Irvings bookstore in 
>South Carolina for a videotape to obtain the video documentation of 
>Irvings confrontation with Lipstadt. It is weird.

    No, I understand perfectly the reluctance to enrich David Irving, as I
share it.  If David Irving were really interested in getting the truth
out, he would make his video available at cost - something on the order of
$8 which would cover postage, the cost of the videocassette, and the
duplication costs.  I would pay $8, but I do not want to pay David Irving
an additional $13.  If you are willing to sell me your copy of the Irving
video of the encounter for $8 postpaid, I will buy it.  Or, if you will
*loan* it to me, I will return it and reimburse you for the cost of
postage to send it to me.  Does that sound fair?


>In the case of Irving indicting Lipstadt for fraud because she is pretending
>she has blueprints showing Zyklon B pellet insertion holes at Auschwitz, the
>reaction of the anti-revisionists has been to claim, on no evidence whatever,
>that Fleming, Pressac or some other >>authority<< has just such a blueprint.

    On what authority do you claim she does not?  You demand that we pay 
Irving $21 to evaluate his evidence, but have you spent 29 cents to send 
Deborah Lipstadt a letter to ask to evaluate her evidence?  If you 
haven't, isn't that somewhat hypocritical?


>The honest, normal reaction of an exterminationist to the Irving-Lipstadt
>confrontation would be to say: >>There are no published blueprints showing 
>what Lipstadt has claimed.  Lipstadt hates Irving. If she had such a 
>blueprint in a private archive she would undoubtedly produce it, let 
>everyone examine and confirm its authenticity and thereby do 
>incalculable harm to Irving.

    Indeed.  But I'm sure in any event that she would not be carrying it
around in her pocket at the time of the confrontation with Irving. 
Therefore I think this merits more investigation, both as to the accuracy
of Irving's claims, and Lipstadt's defense of what she said.  I have never
said that Lipstadt must be in the right, only that she may be, and should
be given a chance to reply. 


>This would be a refreshing, candid approach, inspiring good will and some 
>sense of a community of scholars at work on thorny historical problems 
>which might yield results very different from the original convictions 
>of the participants.

    I don't see that you have extended that courtesy to Deborah 
Lipstadt.  Have you?


>I encountered a similar phenomenon in my debate here with an exterminationist
>over the presentation of the person and actions of SS Commandant Amon Goeth in
>the Spielberg movie >>Schindlers List<<.

    Here you mean me, and you are quite simply wrong.


>I was able to show that Spielberg cast  the German Army in the worst possible
>light by withholding from his audience the fact that Goeth had been arrested
>and prosecuted by the SS Judiciary for crimes against inmates and financial
>corruption.

    For the third time, Hoffman did not show that Goeth was arrested and 
prosecuted for crimes against inmates.  He did not read his sources 
honestly.  Two sources made no mention whatsoever of crimes against 
inmates being on the indictment - they only mentioned corruption.  The 
other two gave one list of crimes and a separate list of defendants, 
which means there is no way to know which charges were lodged against a 
*specific* defendant on the list.


>How was this datum greeted by my opponent?  With genuine astonishment?
>Surprise?  Anger at Spielberg?  Absolutely not.

    No, it was greeted by anger at Hoffman for presenting his material 
dishonestly.


>His reaction was purely partisan. Spielbergs credibility had to be 
>defended at all costs. I was told the equivalent of, >>Hey, it is 
>Hollywood, what do you >expect?<<
> 
>But how the Khazars would howl if an Oscar-winning Best Picture had 
>depicted the Israeli army in similar, relentlessly negative and 
>monstrous terms!

    If an Israeli murderer were prosecuted by the Israeli army for 
*murder*, and a movie did not show it, yes, I would be upset at the lie 
by omission.  However, if the murderer were prosecuted only for having 
his hand in the cookie jar, and this was not shown in the movie, I would 
not consider this a fault, as it means that the murder was allowed to 
slide by.  Not even Michael Hoffman has been able to provide unequivocal 
evidence that Goeth was prosecuted for any charge besides corruption.  
Therefore there is no reason for Spielberg to know that matters were any 
different than described in Keneally's book.


>But I have never seen that happen here in alt.revisionism on the part of any
>anti-revisionist except Wayne McGuire:

    Then you have not been reading everything I write.  I have carefully
examined the "soap from human fat" story and have concluded that while I
think it did happen on an experimental basis, it was not proved to have
come from Jews, not proved to have come from people who were murdered, and
was done under extenuating circumstances which lead me to conclude that
grisly and upsetting as it may be, it was in fact not an atrocity by
sadistic monsters, but the act of very desperate people facing terrible
shortages because they were losing the war.


>I came aboard alt.revisionism here on Internet some two months ago, hoping
>for a genuine exchange of research and ideas.

    If that was the case, you would have been better served by posting
less bombastic and accusatory articles, with more honest reading of
sources.  Your sources which you offered as proof of your claims about the
reasons for Goeth's arrest did not stand up to verification - they do not
prove what you say they do.  I am willing to listen to new evidence, but 
until you have such new evidence, all we know for sure is that Goeth was 
charged with corruption.


>In newspaper and radio debates in which I have participated, the holohoaxers
>lost because there was a large enough audience of independents to act as 
>a reasonable counterpoint to the lunacies of my opponents.

    I suspect you are a rather biased judge....

>If the Irving-Lipstadt exchange or the Hoffman-McVay debate were published
>in any major U.S. paper, Lipstadt and McVay would be publicly refuted 
>and laughed at.

    Of course, I think that if the Hoffman-Stein debate (on both
Schindler's List and Hoffman's Hebrew) were published, Hoffman would be
publicly refuted and laughed at.  In fact, the vote for Kook of the Month
is now underway in alt.usenet.kooks, so we may see independent validation
of this position - Michael Hoffman is one of the nominees. 


>In alt.revisionism we basically have no such healthy audience, or at least 
>one not willing to make its presence known.

    You have to read alt.usenet.kooks for that.


>I have come to the conclusion, regarding the current roster of anti-
>revisionist polemicists, with the exception of Mr. McGuire, that one 
>could post any document, any research lead, any testimony, no matter how 
>definitive, compelling or truthful and the exterminationists would 
>respond with nothing but their customary barrage of meaningless flak.

    In order for you to make this claim truthfully, it would mean that you
did not see my posting, "Hoffman's Kastner claim stands up," in which I
announced that I had investigated your source for the claim that Kaster
had collaborated, and explained in greater detail than you did why I
thought you were right.  I expressed surprise that you were so snotty
about providing your source given that it was legitimate.  However,
although you were wrong and remain wrong about your sources for the
indictment of Goeth, and were unnecessarily rude in the matter of your
sources, ultimately you provided good information about Kastner and I
promptly acknowledged the truth for what it was.  If you had been less of
a horse's ass about providing documentation I would have been even quicker
about it.


>I resisted believing this for a long time. But it really struck me in the
>Irving-Lipstadt Dramatic Confrontation thread. Here we had smashed an icon. 
>It was on videotape.  Surely now there would be a response from the
>exterminationists that would have some integrity; where all, in solidarity 
>with basic criteria of scholarship, would condemn Lipstadt as the 
>mountebank she is.

   I'm sorry, but since you have shown that you cannot be relied upon to 
present sources accurately in the matter of the Morgen and Mittelstadt 
affidavits, I reserve final judgement until I see this videotape myself.  
As I said, if I can get it without enriching David Irving - who is already 
as discredited as you say Lipstadt is - I will watch it.


>I thought that with the Irving-Lipstadt thread breaking some ice, if Mr. 
>McVay was unreformable, I would at the very least clobber him so that 
>his credibility would never recover.

    Speaking of credibility, with regard to "Hoffman's Hebrew," have you
given any thought to the damage you did to your credibility by claiming as
a reason for attacking me a statement I did not make until nearly three
weeks after your attack on me?  I really think your house is made of a
rather too transparent and fragile material for you to be chucking rocks
on that score. 


>But if it is a matter of a few hundred people, most of whom are dogmatic,
>case-hardened >>Holocaust<< cultists of the caliber of Messers Shine, Stein,
>Baglow, Keren, McVay and the rest of the tom-tom beaters, I demur. My hunch is
>that the latter obtains.

    If you call me a dogmatic partisan, once again you are either a liar
or an illiterate.  Why would I go to the trouble of publicly announcing
that you were right about Kastner even though I had already demonstrated
that you were posting dishonest arguments on another subject?  Why would I
say that the Nuremberg soap story is not an atrocity when viewed
objectively?  This is anomalous behavior which should cause you some
surprise when coming from an anti-German zealot you accuse me of being. 
Yet you ignore it, glassy-eyed and slack-jawed.  So which one of us is 
the dogmatic partisan and which one is the seeker of truth?
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 19574 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: An Evaluation of the McVay-Canada Debates
References: 
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1994Dec02.052253.28401@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Fri, 02 Dec 94 05:22:53 GMT

Comments from Michael "Making a Buck off the Holocaust" Hoffman II:

     I was able to show that Spielberg cast the German Army in
     the worst possible light by withholding from his audience
     the fact that Goeth had been arrested and prosecuted by the
     SS Judiciary for crimes against inmates and financial
     corruption.  How was this datum greeted by my opponent?With
     genuine astonishment?Surprise?Anger at Spielberg?
     Absolutely not.  

It is interesting to note that in article <5I9WTMU.hoffman2nd@delphi.com>, 
Mr. Hoffman made the following claim, which he appears to have
abandoned in mid-November, for reasons which will soon become clear:

     Spielbergs movie >>Schindlers List<< stereotypes the entire
     German army as homicidal robots and it portrays the German
     military hierarchy as sanctioning Commandant Goeths crimes
     of murder when in fact, as Morgen and Obersturmbannfuehrer
     Mittelstaedt testified, he was arrested by the SS because of
     those crimes.

Mr. Hoffman again flaunts his "debating" style, which seems to consist
of making unsupportable charges, citing misrepresentations of
documents (in the faint hope that no-one will look them up and
discover his duplicity, one must assume) as his "proof," and then
changing the charges and claims slightly (or, in this case, grossly)
from post to post, in the hope no-one will notice.

In the case of the above claim, that Goeth was arrested for murder,
Michael Stein provided a clear explanation for Mr. Hoffman's
unannounce retreat in the following exchange:

Mr. Hoffman:

     I am reproducing the relevant one here from Critchleys
     translation.  [...] 

     The following was written by Kurt Mittelstaedt, SSJudge
     Konrad Morgens superior officer, circa December, 1945.  It
     is from a U.S.  Army War Crimes investigations document.
     Mittelstaedt was chief of the highest SS Court in the H.A.G.
     (at Munich):

     The investigations conducted by SSJudges led to about 200
     sentencings of SS members...The following overview makes
     clear in a short summary the extent and goals of the
     investigations...Plaszow and Scebnie near Crakow:
     investigations against the commandant, members of the
     commandantures and he former SS and Police Fuehrer of
     Warsaw, SSOberfuehrer Scherner, because of killing and abuse
     of prisoners and because of crimes of corruption.

Mr. Stein:

     Unfortunately this suffers from the same problem as Morgen's
     affidavit, plus another one.  There is a fairly long list of
     people (not only Commandant Goeth and the commandant of
     Scebnie, but members of the commandantures) followed by a
     list of crimes, with no clear way to link specific names
     with specific crimes.  (The Morgen affidavit also suffered
     from this problem.) Also, the Mittelstaedt affidavit in any
     event talks not about *indictments* but *investigations*.
     Even if Goeth *was* investigated for murder, this does not
     mean that he was - as Hoffman claimed - *arrested* for it
     (that is, the investigation turned up enough evidence for
     the SS to bring the charge).  So again this document does
     not say as much as Hoffman thinks it does.

     Once more I *must* emphasize that I do not claim that any of
     this proves that Goeth *wasn't* charged with murder - only
     that this point has not been definitely established yet.
     But I am on solid ground in saying Mr.  Hoffman was reading
     too much into the documents he has; they are too ambiguous
     to *prove* that Goeth was charged with anything other than
     corruption, which is all that the unambiguous sources -
     Keneally and Ainsztein - say.  I frankly doubt it, but I'm
     ready to be convinced otherwise by an unambigous document. 

In short, Mr. Hoffman was, to be kind, blatently misrepresenting the
document he cited. It is instructive to note that he hasn't produced
any additional evidence since, and perhaps that is why he now abandons
his earlier charge. It is time, one should point out, that Mr. Hoffman
either produce proof that Goeth was arrested by the SS, or abandon
that claim as well. (So much for Mr. Hoffman's analytical abilities...)

Mr. Hoffman's tome promises some entertainment in another area as
well, raising the spectre of Friedrich Berg:

     Soon I will be posting the technical information on diesel
     engine exhaust.  This information directly contradicts the
     revisionist thesis for Operation Reinhard.  When I learned
     of this technical report I was quite curious and intrigued.
     How could I not post this information when it is so
     interesting and anomalous?  If the report is scientifically
     without error ( and I do not know for certain that it is)
     then it will weaken the revisionist defense against gassings
     at Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka.  BUT SO WHAT?  The quest
     is for the truth, at all costs.  That is the authentic
     expression of genuine Re-Vision.  When new information
     presents itself one revises ones views.  It is a permanent
     task.

As noted, it will certainly be entertaining :-)

     Moreover, if we look at what Mr.  McVay is proposing about
     Canada, that it has free speech and free press for
     revisionists (even as two revisionists are being
     prosecuted), we run into a brick wall of Stalinism.  Mr.
     Baglow has been the more candid in his articulation, but Mr.
     McVays Orwellian re-write of the horrors the past twelve
     years have held for revisionist writers and publishers in
     Canada, is perhaps the more telling for its surfeit of
     whitewash.  

I asked Mr.  Hoffman, on the 28th.  of November, to provide some
evidence for the claims he attributes to me, and it comes as no
surprise to note that he has failed to do so. Instead, he continues
putting words in my mouth. Again, perhaps he does so in the faint hope
that no-one will question his assertions.

     The gist of McVays preposterous conention is that
     revisionists did not go through any hell in Canada and in
     fact, were not even prosecuted for being revisionists.

Again, Mr. Hoffman is putting words in my mouth - perhaps because he
lacks the ability to respond to those words I _have_ offered here in
this regard.

     Here is where we enter a realm where only the most committed
     Stalinist party hack would attempt to craft an argument.

Not bad! To his equally silly charges that I am a cop, an agent, and
in the pay of a "Pharasee-loving church," Mr. Hoffman now adds yet
another label. That he cannot provide a shred of proof for any of them
bothers him not at all, but then, he _is_ a "revisionist" scholar, and
his comments are consistent when viewed in that light.

     McVays entire delusion, repeated over and again like a
     potion bottled in new glass with each serving, is that
     Zundel won his appeal, therefore there is freedom for
     revisionists in Canada.

See my article of November 28th... Common law changes from day to day,
as precidents are set. In the case of the charge brought against Mr.
Zu"ndel, it has most certainly changed, although Mr. Hoffman would
rather overlook that reality.

     McVay cannot--dare not--consider HOW Zundel won the appeal and
     AT WHAT COST, nor the implications of the recent criminal
     charge against two revisionists in British Columbia.

It matters little how the appeal was won, Mr. Hoffman. The reality is
that it _was_ won, and the common law has therefore changed. That is,
after all, precisely how the law _works_, as you yourself point out
in your silly "checkmate" commentary.

     Zundel was acquitted after years of prosecution because he hired
     the expensive, competent legal help and raised the funds to
     pay for it, while the Canadian Establishment was excoriating
     him as a monster who must fail.  Most of the Canadian System
     opposed his appeal.  No free speech foundation came forward
     to assist him.  He won in spite of them.

He won because the Charter of Rights and Freedoms made the charge
impossible to sustain.

     How many other Canadian writers or publishers have been
     dissuaded from doubting the gas chambers or publishing the
     doubts of others, by the nearly-decade long ordeal of Ernst
     Zundel?That is the imposing intimidation factor writ large
     in the inquisition against Zundel.  This is the victory the
     Canadian Jewish Establishment won in spite of the success of
     Zundels appeal after years of being victimized.

Zu"ndel continues to publish his tripe... go figger :-)

     McVay, as an example of bias and partisanship, cannot concede
     this fact even as two revisionists are being prosecuted in
     his own province.

Zu"ndel continues to publish his tripe... go figger :-)

     All he says is the equivalent of, >>Aw, it is nothing.  They
     will get off on appeal.<<

See above: That's the way the legal system on this continent _works_,
Mr. Hoffman. If you aren't comfortable with that, change it, or move
somewhere else, where you will be more comfortable - it does, after
all, work in precisely the same way in New York as it does in Toronto.

     Maybe.  Maybe not.  There is no guarantee.  If there was a
     guarantee, as McVay claims, the case would not be
     prosecuted.  In the U.S.  where revisionists have the
     freedom of speech and legal protections McVay pretends exist
     in Canada, a criminal prosecution against a journalist and a
     researcher would not even be initiated at any level of the
     judicial system.

I responded to this claim on November 28th. - if you haven't seen the
article, it may be found in the file MH2.1194, which is now
available from listserv@oneb.almanac.bc.ca. The file also documents
Hoffman's unsupported claims about Amon Goeth, and demonstrates how
readily he backs off from disputed assertions. (To obtain the file, which
contains Mr. Hoffman's posts, and responses, send the command GET
HOLOCAUST/USA/NEW_YORK MH2.1194 to the server. Be for-warned - it's
a huge file.)

     But the question remains, at what cost will a Supreme Court
     appeal be won, if in fact it is won by Collins and Ball?
     The idiocy at the heart of McVays argument is the cost of an
     appeal to the accused.  *Zundel was jailed in Canada for
     doubting the gas chambers.* He was gagged.  He was pilloried
     in the media.  He lost his business.  He became a target for
     terrorism.  

Mr. Hoffman now indicts the entire Canadian and American legal
systems! What, one must ask, would he replace them with, now that he
has rejected them? Does Mr. Zu"ndel require the services of Legal
Aid?

As to Mr. Collins and Mr. Ball, I do not believe that any criminal
charges have been filed, by any jurisdiction. A complaint may well
have been filed before the B.C. Human Rights Commission, but that in
itself does not constitute a charge, nor does it necessarily mean that
the Human Rights Commission will find the complaint justified.

Perhaps that is why the press ignores this "story." So far, it _isn't_ 
a story.

     That ordeal constituted the sentence he served.  It was the
     price he paid, for years, for publishing a book entitled
     >>Did Six Million Really Die?<<

     He had already been severely punished for his publishing in
     Canada long before his appeal was heard by the Supreme Court
     of Canada.  Zundel had undergone the torments of the
     inquisitors.  McVay must minimize this and sweep it under
     the carpet.  McVay hallucinates that there is no repression
     against revisionists in Canada because after the
     revisionists get fined, go to jail, lose their jobs and
     their reputations, many months or years later, the Supreme
     Court of Canada (if the victim can afford the cost of the
     appeal) will acquit them.

Mr. McVay has swept nothing under the carpet, although Mr. Hoffman
would love to have you believe otherwise. Once again, I ask Mr.
Hoffman to produce the article in which I stated that there has been
no repression of Holocaust deniers in Canada, or quit making yet
another claim he cannot hope to substantiate.

     There is not a shred of honesty in such an analysis.  It is

I agree. There is not a shred of honesty in Mr. Hoffman's analysis.

     merely the falsification of the history of revisionists in
     Canada, disguised as an argument.  McVay is desperate not to
     have to say, >>I was wrong.  I mis-stated the case.  There
     still is no free speech for revisionists in Canada.<<

Produce the articles, Mr. Hoffman, produce the articles. Show the
quotes where I have denied repression. Was I wrong about the precident
(Supreme Court of Canada judgements under discussion) which has
changed the law, Mr. Hoffman? (I think the answer to that one is
obvious, and I think that's why Mr. Hoffman refuses to provide his
analysis of the actual judgements. He's a coward.)

[Irving comments deleted. I've addressed that matter already.]

     Doug Collins is being criminally prosecuted for criticizing
     Schindlers List in the North Shore News AFTER the acquittals
     of Zundel and Keegstra.

Please provide evidence that Mr. Collins is being criminally
prosecuted for anything. Name the court before which he has been
charged, and name the prosecutor who laid the evidence. So far, all
I've seen you do is quote a single article in the Vancouver Sun, which
quotes the Canadian Jewish Congress saying the BC Human Rights
Commission has "decided to proceed." Frankly, I have no idea where
that complaint is now, or what has been done, if anything has been
done (I am going to find out, I assure you - where you are concerned,
it obviously pays to deal with the facts, as little you offer can be
taken at face value, as the many examples in your diatribes attest).

[wailing and gnashing of teeth omitted] 

     But in the political economy of >>The Holocaust<< religion,
     there is no equivalence.  >The Master Race and The
     Holocaust, Sole Genocide Worthy of Commemoration and Study,<
     produce a Wonderland Universe of exceptionalism: what they
     perpetrate against writers in Canada like newspaperman Doug
     Collins is no cause for alarm or protest.  It is not
     repression.  In fact, in a sense it is not even happening
     because sometime in the future it will all be negated on
     appeal.  (Maybe).

Where _does_ Mr. Hoffman get this "Master Race" crap? (Is it those
comic books he flogs?)

Tell us, Mr. Hoffman, whether or not you support human rights
legislation? Desegregation, for instance, or codes dealing with sexual
equality?

     The absolute lack of outrage over the horror and the absurdity
     of what is happening to Doug Collins, the journalist who
     criticized Schindlers List and is being prosecuted for it,
     is proof positive of the overwhelmingly chauvinist nature of
     >>The Holocaust<< and its tremendous power to subvert and
     corrupt a nation.

As much as it must gall Mr. Hoffman, I suspect that many Canadians
find Mr. Collins' editorial opinions disgusting. I also suspect that
that's why the media has responded with a resounding yawn, although I
certainly can't prove it.

     As an indication of the corrupted Canadian mentality, both
     McVay and Baglow have referred to the >>pain<< revisionists
     cause the Holy People. [...]

No, I've referred to the pain deniers cause survivors - Jews, Gypsies,
Seventh Day Adventists, and a host of others. Many people simply don't
like bullies, Mr. Hoffman - the sort that make it a point to
deliberately inflict pain upon others.

     Leftists often take for themselves the mantel of the prophet
     and proclaim that they must >>speak truth to power,<< except
     where that power is Jewish.  Those to whom one cannot speak
     freely almost always become so brittle and so drunk with
     hubris that they become increasingly mad.  This is in fact
     what has befallen the Jewish Establishment thanks to
     >>friends<< like McVay and Baglow.  

I shall have to ask a "leftist," should I ever meet one, what mantels
they take for themselves.

[...]

     Hence, the ultimate sign of Jewish degradation, pronounced
     by their frantic servants: do not challenge, contradict or
     question them, for to do so, >> gives them pain.<< What a

Poor Mr. Hoffman - projecting again. I've questioned many Jews, and
contradicted them, and none of them (an admittedly small group - there
are no Jews that I know of in my community) have indicated this caused
them any discomfort. I've even questioned and contradicted them on
matters relating to the Holocaust, without perceiving any painful
reaction. Perhaps Mr. Hoffman projects their reaction to _him_, and
other among the denier herd, onto their reaction to the entire world
for anything. What a tiny world he must live within.

[non-relevant ranting about pain deleted]

     exempt from it and therefore from life itself: the Master
     Jewish Race.  [...]

Judaism is a _race_? If someone converts, does their genetic structure
change over night? _Fascinating_ concept!

     status based on race or religion.  In sum, it only adds to
     anti-Jewish resentment.  [...]

Mr. Hoffman seems to be projecting again, in a lame attempt to justify
his hatred for Things Jewish.

     The issue must never be that words are painful.  The issue
     can only be that if the truth is painful is must be borne
     and since there can never be any official means for
     determining an officially-propounded truth, the pain of
     critical words must be endured by the partisans of all
     religious, political and racial affiliations in a free
     society.  This is an axiom of liberty yet it is a virtual
     unknown in the realm of >>The Holocaust<< religion.  

The truth is indeed painful, Mr. Hoffman. The loss of your entire
family, aunts, uncles, parents, grand-parents, sisters, brothers, and
neighbors is PAINFUL. 

The loss of perhaps every single member of your community is PAINFUL,
Mr. Hoffman. Your friends, your neighbors, your teachers, your doctor,
your nurse, your barber, the farmer that brought your eggs... you do
not know the _meaning_ of pain, Mr. Hoffman.

Neo-nazi Hitler-cleansing, and its attendant anti-Holocaust venom, is
also painful - and, no, Mr. Hoffman, propagandistic posturing ad
nauseum will not return those dead to life; it can only add to the
pain.

     Baglow and McVay think they have a monopoly on the truth.
     They and their allies have a proprietary relationship to it,
     no others need apply.

I don't know what Mr. Baglow thinks. I think the _truth_ has a
monopoly on truth, Mr. Hoffman. In the end, it is the truth that is
your undoing.

     The Terror followed.  In Canada Doug Collins and revisionist
     writer John Ball are being prosecuted by the government at
     the insistence of very short-sighted folks in the Canadian
     Jewish Congress on the notion that >>error has no rights.<<

Prosecuted for what, Mr. Hoffman? Please provide some details
regarding the complaint mentioned in the Sun article, if you have
them. I do not, but I have initiated efforts to get them, and will
report them here, if and when they are provided.

     I came aboard alt.revisionism here on Internet
     some two months ago, hoping for a genuine exchange of
     research and ideas.  I have found instead the same old
     hysteria and tribalism that I have encountered among the
     partisans of the holohoax in any other forum, but with one
     key exception.  

Translation: Everytime I misrepresent something, someone points it
out, and I find that embarrassing.

     In newspaper and radio debates in which I
     have participated, the holohoaxers lost because there was a
     large enough audience of independents to act as a reasonable
     counterpoint to the lunacies of my opponents.  

Translation: In some media, I can misrepresent virtually anything and
everything, knowing full well that my victims cannot possibly do the
research required to reveal my misrepresentations in sufficient time
for it to have any impact. I can therefore browbeat them at will.

     Irving-Lipstadt exchange or the Hoffman-McVay debate were
     published in any major U.S.  paper, Lipstadt and McVay would
     be publicly refuted and laughed at.  If the American people
     knew why Doug Collins has been criminally charged in British
     Columbia, the government of Canada and all who support the

Doug Collins has not, to my knowledge, been "criminally charged" with
anything, by anyone. A _complaint_ has been filed, but no
determination of the merit of that complaint has apparently been made.
More misrepresentation, I think, and worth investigating. (I have
asked a member of the government legislature to look into this for me,
so I can address facts, rather than Mr. Hoffman's apparent lack of
them.)

     stage of contention.  In alt.revisionism we basically have
     no such healthy audience, or at least one not willing to
     make its presence known.  We have instead a small group of
     exterminationists who forever wear a poker face in the midst
     of arguments and data devastating to their cause.  I have no

What "devastating" data is that, Mr. Hoffman? (Perhaps it is time for
another Lurker Poll - the last one was rather one-sided, I seem to
recall.)

     idea what the size of the audience for alt.revisionism is.
     I have been told, on what I thought was good authority, that
     it numbered in the thousands.  If this is so, then these
     >>lurkers<< (in the parlance of the Internet) must be so
     apathetic that they are never driven to comment and the
     audience is in practice, if not in fact, mostly reduced to
     an echo-chamber for the robotic reactions of the
     anti-revisionists.  

There are several survivors reading this group, Mr. Hoffman. For
reasons which are perfectly clear to me, they have no stomach for
talking to you. One such survivor once said to me something along the
lines of "I've heard all of this before. The same words, the same
people, in Amsterdam, when the Nazis were there."

So you see, Mr. Hoffman, many of these folks _do_ comment - they just
don't comment to _you_, and your denier friends.

[...]

     going to announce, before I declared checkmate, >> The whole
     of your argument has been that Canadians can no longer be
     prosecuted for thought crime due to the successful Zundel
     appeal to the Supreme Court.  Therefore what you are saying,
     is that Canada owes its rights to freedom of speech and
     freedom of press to one reviled German revisionist printer
     in Toronto:Ernst Zundel!  Check and mate.  But I have

No, Mr. Hoffman, I have _not_ said what you attribute to me. You know
it, I know it, the audience knows it. 

Checkmate, indeed. What you have said is simply that the common law is
shaped and reshaped through precident, and that Mr. Zu"ndel's case was
one such. In short, although you avoid discussing the Supreme Court
judgements like the plague would descend upon you, you _do_ comprehend
something of the legal process. How devastating :-)

     automatons.  Debating people like McVay is ultimately about
     as interesting as watching paint dry, or like reading the
     official dispatches from a senile scrivener in the Duchy of
     Damage Control.  I will continue to post to alt.revisionism

Fortunately, Mr. Hoffman and I have not been debating. He's been
throwing unsubstantiated charges and insults around, and I've been
asking him to support them with evidence. He hasn't done that yet -
not even once. Some "debate." (Mr. Hoffman should not flatter
himself.)

     and continue to read alt.revisionism but I question its
     significance.  If in fact there is an audience in the
     thousands, then perhaps it remains a worthwhile pursuit,

Actually, Mr. Hoffman, the procedings here have an audience of tens of
thousands - the jerusalem1 gopher gets well over 5000 requests a month
for files which have appeared in this forum, and the volume increases
every month. Major university computer systems world-wide similarly
generate thousands of related documents, nearly all of which
originated here. (If you doubt this, try a Veronica search for
"Auschwitz" and see what you come up with.)


-- 
   /^\__/^\                 The Old Frog's Almanac 
  / @    @ \     A Salute to That Old Frog Himse'f, Ryugen Fisher
 (          )       Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada
  \  ~~~~  /               


Article 19580 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!pipex!uunet!ankh.iia.org!ralph.vnet.net!news1.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Can Rosenbaum be prosecuted for violating Hatch Act?
Date: 27 Nov 1994 23:24:38 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <3bbm26$j2r@access4.digex.net>
References:   <1994Nov22.005410.1468@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article ,
Wayne McGuire  wrote [to Ken McVay]:
>Btw, how did you come into contact with Eli Rosenbaum? Why did
>Eli Rosenbaum send you documents? Did you request them? Or did he
>take the initiative and contact you?
>
>Have you ever heard of the Hatch Act?

    It would never have occured to me that the Hatch Act might apply to
activities like sending Ken documents which do not aid in partisan
electoral politics.  Wayne, why don't you elaborate on your understanding
of the meaning of the Hatch Act, and the legal theory under which you
(apparently) believe it applies in this case?
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 19616 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!unixg.ubc.ca!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uunet!zib-berlin.de!gs.dfn.de!fauern!uni-regensburg.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!stepsun.uni-kl.de!uklirb.informatik.uni-kl.de!stschulz
From: stschulz@informatik.uni-kl.de (Stephan Schulz)
Subject: Re: In Dramatic Confrontation, Irving Convicts Lipstadt of Lying
Message-ID: <1994Nov28.163407.26519@uklirb.informatik.uni-kl.de>
Sender: news@uklirb.informatik.uni-kl.de (Unix-News-System)
Nntp-Posting-Host: isis.informatik.uni-kl.de
Organization: Universitaet Kaiserslautern
References:  <3alusa$b37@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> 
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 1994 16:34:07 GMT
Lines: 32

In article , bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) writes:

|> Is there really anyone here remaining who is fooled in the slightest
|> by Mr McGuire's fabrications and cheap and tawdry attempts at
|> propaganda?

Not me!

However, we need to further classify Wayne - I would put him into the
"stupid, bigotted, incredibly prejudiced, unable-to-read-properly, but
basically honest" category, while Raven, for example, belongs into the
"not to stupid, personally uninvolved, rather unbigotted, can-read,
but incredibly dishonest for comercial reasons" class.

Miltie is "incredibly stupid, bigotted, wont-read, but honest
Nazi-Scumbag" class, and even I am not able to find words describing
Hoffmann^2 properly...

However, I start to believe in Waynes 5000 wpm claim - he simply has
to read that much (in his usual one-sided, see only 10 percent of the
evidence, reinterpret everything to fit into his prejudices way...) in
order to become the hot-air-machine he is. Note: This is 5000 wpm
leaving a picture on the retina - I think that only 250 or so actually
reach the brain...


Stephan

-------------------------- It can be done! ---------------------------------
    Please email me as stschulz@informatik.uni-kl.de (Stephan Schulz)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------



Article 19621 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!usc!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!pipex!uunet!eskimo!doyal
From: doyal@eskimo.com (Thomas Doyal)
Subject: Re: McGuire and Irving (was: Re: In Dramatic Confrontation, Irving Con
Message-ID: 
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
References:  <3apheo$41b@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>   <3avrcq$gnh@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>  <3b7pgq$6h7@bird.summit.novell.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 19:55:49 GMT
Lines: 34

Kaufman M.E. (mattk@summit.novell.com) wrote:
: Thomas Doyal (doyal@eskimo.com) wrote:
: : Danny Keren (dzk@cs.brown.edu) wrote:

: : : A "major historian"?

: : : It was posted here that he was convicted of slandering
: : : and lying in his books, even before he became a Holocaust
: : : denier. No one here denied this. 

: : response cut here.

: Coward. Keren provides some of Irving's historical record, like being
: successfully sued for libel and being condemned by the British Parliament,
: and you cut it out. Keren didn't even include the interview from Skeptic
: magazine that showed Irving doing his level best to misconstrue
: what Eichmann meant when he talked about exterminating Jews.

: Tell ou what Mr. Doyal-the-coward. Why don't you transcribe what you
: feel are the relevant parts of the videotaped program and post them? Don't
: try to make a buck off of it although that'd be out of character from all
: the denier profiteers who seem to wallow here. Go ahead and post it,
: coward. You wont' - wouldn't want to get your snout far from the
: denier trough, to borrow a phrase from KOTM nominee hoffman^2.
--------------------------------------------------------------

I have already posted several excerpts of David Irvings speech. Where 
have you been? Asleep? I am almost ready to post another excerpt. You 
people could not absorb all his facts at one time.

Stay tuned.

Doyal@eskimo.com
remainder deleted.


Article 19633 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dannya@xs4all.nl (Danny A. Nijburg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: In Dramatic Confrontation, Irving Convicts Lipstadt of Lying
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 94 17:39:42 GMT
Organization: DAN
Lines: 45
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3bfhdb$gj@news.xs4all.nl>
References:  <3alusa$b37@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>  <1994Nov28.163407.26519@uklirb.informatik.uni-kl.de>
NNTP-Posting-Host: slip132-23.xs4all.nl
X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #1

stschulz@informatik.uni-kl.de (Stephan Schulz) wrote:
->In article , bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) writes:
->
->|> Is there really anyone here remaining who is fooled in the slightest
->|> by Mr McGuire's fabrications and cheap and tawdry attempts at
->|> propaganda?
->
->Not me!
->
->However, we need to further classify Wayne - I would put him into the
->"stupid, bigotted, incredibly prejudiced, unable-to-read-properly, but
->basically honest" category, while Raven, for example, belongs into the
->"not to stupid, personally uninvolved, rather unbigotted, can-read,
->but incredibly dishonest for comercial reasons" class.
->
->Miltie is "incredibly stupid, bigotted, wont-read, but honest
->Nazi-Scumbag" class, and even I am not able to find words describing
->Hoffmann^2 properly...
->
->However, I start to believe in Waynes 5000 wpm claim - he simply has
->to read that much (in his usual one-sided, see only 10 percent of the
->evidence, reinterpret everything to fit into his prejudices way...) in
->order to become the hot-air-machine he is. Note: This is 5000 wpm
->leaving a picture on the retina - I think that only 250 or so actually
->reach the brain...
->
->
->Stephan
->
->-------------------------- It can be done! ---------------------------------
->    Please email me as stschulz@informatik.uni-kl.de (Stephan Schulz)
->----------------------------------------------------------------------------
->

Can you prove he has a brain ?
Numbers please and reliable evidence.



                                         /\\\\
Danny A. Nijburg                         (@|@)
--------------------------------------ooO-(v)-Ooo-----
Victorieplein 47-2                        ~Y~
1078 PD Amsterdam- The Netherlands
Phone/Fax +31 20 671 7711             Do unto others.....



Article 19640 of alt.revisionism:
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From: t08o@leda.sun.csd.unb.ca (Keith Morrison)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McGuire and Irving (was: Re: In Dramatic Confrontation, Irving Con
Date: 30 Nov 1994 22:20:11 GMT
Organization: University of New Brunswick, Fredericton, NB, Canada
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <3bitqr$hg5@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>
References:   <3b7pgq$6h7@bird.summit.novell.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: leda.sun.csd.unb.ca

From: doyal@eskimo.com (Thomas Doyal)
Message-ID: 

>I have already posted several excerpts of David Irvings speech. Where 
>have you been? Asleep? I am almost ready to post another excerpt. You 
>people could not absorb all his facts at one time.
>
>Stay tuned.

I have already posted several questions about the David Irving speech.
Where is the "prison holding center" at Pearson International Airport in
Toronto, Canada, that Irving claims he was held in?  This is the fifth
time I have asked you this question.  Where have you been?  Asleep?  I
am almost ready to give up on you as a simple propaganda robot who can
only transcribe and not critically understand anything you copy (gee,
McGuire's descriptions are good for something after all).  You could not
absorb that single question to answer.

Stay tuned out, Doyal.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Keith Morrison
************************************************************
*t08o@unb.ca  *  My views are not those of the University  *
***************  of New Brunswick.  UNB never has views on *
*             *  on anything, ever.                        *
************************************************************

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