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From: Rich Graves 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,can.legal
Subject: Response to Rimland Affidavit in the CHRC Zundel case (fwd)
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 10:39:09 -0700
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

For Zundel's sides of the story, see
http://www.nizkor.org/features/legal-documents/

These sworn statements of Zundelsite representatives are not available on
the Zundelsite. If you read them, you will understand why.

Marc Lemire, Ingrid Rimland, and the other "revisionists" on the ostara list
have had 13 days to clarify. No response has been received, so I will assume
that they have no objection to the below.

- -rich
 http://www.stanford.edu/~llurch/

- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 20:19:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Rich Graves 
To: revision@ostara.org
Cc: mlemire@interlog.com, ezundel@cts.com
Subject: Response to Rimland Affidavit in the Zundel case

The below is not a sworn statement and should not be admissible in court.

I wrote the enclosed on the date indicated (and I can prove beyond a
reasonable doubt, thanks to the international PGP timestamping service, the
authenticity and chronology of every single document), but I have not posted
it because I *strongly* oppose the prosecution of Zundel by the CHRC. 

However, since Marc Lemire and others seem intent on attacking me no matter
what I do, merely because I do not share his political opinions, I might go
ahead and tell the truth anyway. 

Marc and Ingrid, please let me know in this forum if you believe anything
below to be inaccurate -- excluding your own inaccurate statements, of
course. I mean if you think anything *I* say is in the least inaccurate. I
will take your suggestions into consideration before posting publicly.

Corrections I already know I need to make, but haven't made yet because I
wanted to leave the PGP signature intact:

1) It's Electronic Frontier Canada, not Electronic Frontiers.

2) In fact Nizkor's QAR was drafted by Danny Keren in 1992, years before
   the Zundelsite existed.

3) Some URLs might have changed.

- -rich

- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 17:39:42 -0800 (PST)
From: Rich Graves 

- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

This is a first rough draft. It has not been posted.

- - -rich

From: Rich Graves 
Organization: Grouchy Marxists, http://www.stanford.edu/~llurch/marxism/
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,can.legal
Subject: Response to Rimland Affidavit in the Zundel case

I would consider it a violation of my copyright in this post to quote
sections of this post without also quoting this entire paragraph up to the
word "myself." You may follow up 1) without quoting any text or 2) quoting
this paragraph plus any portion(s) of the remainder of my post, in or out
of context. I have no idea what the courts would say, but I would not
consider other use of my words to be "fair."  On general principle and as
applied to this specific case, I do not agree with the law under which Mr. 
Zundel has been charged. I do not believe that it should be on the books; 
I do not believe that the HRC legitimately has jurisdiction over this
matter; and I do not believe that the sanctions provided for by the
Canadian Human Rights Act are appropriate in this case. However, having
weighed the impact of various courses of action, I have decided to clarify
where Ms. Rimland's affidavit is in error. The following is not a sworn
statement. To the best of my knowledge, it should be inadmissible in
court. At this time I have no intention of cooperating with the
prosecution in this case, but I do not wish to see the public misled by
the defense, either. I speak only for myself. 

The full text of Ms. Rimland's affidavit is available at
 http://www.nizkor.org/features/legal-documents/
 (Curiously, it is not available on her own web sites.)

The web site that Ms. Rimland runs for Mr. Zundel is at
 http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/

Electronic Frontiers Canada has related archives at:
 http://insight.mcmaster.ca/org/efc/pages/chrc-zundel.html
 http://insight.mcmaster.ca/org/efc/pages/pr/efc-pr.25jul96.html
 http://insight.mcmaster.ca/org/efc/pages/pr/ostrich.html

With a very few minor differences in the details, I fully support 
Electronic Frontiers Canada's account of and position on this case.

Document conventions: Ingrid Rimland's affidavit is indented with >.
Quotes from docments other than Ingrid Rimland's affidavit are indented
with |.

>                                Affidavit
>                         filed by Ingrid Rimland
>                           on December 13, 1996
[...]                                      
>  1. I am the Webmaster of the Internet website on the World Wide Web
>  known as the "Zundelsite" located at the electronic address
>  http://webcom.com/ezundel/english. As such, I have personal knowledge
>  of the matters hereinafter deposed to:

I recognize Ms. Rimland's title.
   
>  2. I am the creator, designer, editor and primary electronic columnist
>  of the Zundelsite. All documents which appear on the Zundelsite are
>  prepared in HTML and Adobe Acrobat coding by me on computer equipment
>  owned by me and located in Carlsbad, California, United States of
>  America.

I do not dispute that for the most part, the structure and maintenance of
the web site today is her affair. However, in January 1996, it was Marc
Lemire of Toronto, whose affiliaton with Mr. Zundel and the Heritage Front
is discussed in the "Information Collection and Harassment" section of the
SIRC Report on the "Heritage Front Affair," who uploaded the Zundelsite
files to my machine when I proposed a mirror site. As I recall and as my
email archives show, Ms. Rimland explained in January 1996 that she was "a
technical novice" not competent to FTP the files to my machine. Instead, I
was contacted by Marc Lemire, who on January 29, 1996 introduced himself
thusly:

[ full headers at http://www.stanford.edu/~llurch/potw2/zun ]

| Hello my name is Marc and I am writing you on behalf of Ernst Zundel.
|
|
| I am wondering if this is the address (llurch@networking.stanford.edu) where
| I can send the commpressed Web site documents to as a 'save attached'
| message to?
|
| And if you had an FTP site where I could instead of sending them to you,
| could put them.
|
| FTP is much easier and faster.
|
|
| ... PS.. The entire site is about ... 30-40 megabytes.  I can strip out all
| the Sound files which would leave the site at only maybe 3 megs.
|
|
|
| Talk to you soon.
|
|
|
| Thanks
|
|
| Marc Lemire

>   3. I decided on the name - "Zundelsite" - because Mr. Zundel is the
>  world's best-known skeptic of genocidal activities alleged to have
>  happened in German concentration camps. I felt the name would
>  summarize for many familiar with Mr. Zundel's struggle the focus and
>  aim of this website - namely the call to readers and scholars
>  world-wide to scientificall and forensically examine widely-held but
>  here properly eamined claims of systematic genocide of European Jews
>  during World War II. I do not recall consulting Mr. Zundel if I could
>  use the word "Zundelsite" - I unilaterally decided that I would.

This is truly surreal. In January 1996, Ingrid lacked not only the
technical competence, but also the authority to upload the Zundelsite
files.

[ full headers at http://www.stanford.edu/~llurch/potw2/zun ]

| Rich,
|
| thanks for your message.  I will pass it on to Ernst tonight.  I post on
| the Zundelsite from the US and talk to him almost daily.

and six hours later, she had an answer from Zundel:

| Hi, Rich -
| 
| I just talked to Ernst, and he is very interested in your offer to mirror
| his site unedited.  What is involved, technically?  Can you do it on your
| own, without my involvement?  I am really, really a novice at the technical
| side of it, and so is Ernst.  He said to "absolutely go ahead" if you could
| do it and if you give him your word that the material would be unedited and
| exactly as we are putting it up - and if you had a question, to please call
| him at 416 - 922-9850.  It is his private line, and the man _never_
| sleeps!

Ingrid identifies the Zundelsite as Zundel's web site, and gives me his
phone number.

>  4. I have sole control over the password to the Zundelsite. Mr. Zundel
>  does not know and has never known the password to the Zundelsite.

I have no doubt that this is true, as far as it goes.

>  6. The Zundelsite is located at the Web server called Web
>  Communications, also referred to as WebCom. The physical address is
>  Web Communications, 125 Water St. Suite A1, Santa Cruz, CA 95060, USA.
>  All Zundelsite documents are stored at this address in huge electronic
>  memory banks. 

Actually, memory and hard drives are quite small nowadays, but after all,
she is a technical novice. :-) 

>  7. Internet customers from all over the world access Zundelsite
>  documents at this US-based location - not only by calling up the Home
>  Page of the Zundelsite but by following hundreds of links established
>  by other website owners who have rarely consulted me and asked for
>  permission to link. Such linking is a navigational device and the
>  mechanism that makes the Internet interactive.

This is an odd use of the word "interactive," but in some sense it is
true. I understand that the Zundel defense team will rely on the
"interactive" point. On general principle, I wish them well in making that
case, but I do not consider a static propaganda web site to be
"interactive" in the sense I would use the word. As the ACLU's Barry Ennis
recently argued in the CDA case before the United States Supreme Court:

[ full transcript: http://www.aclu.org/issues/cyber/trial/sctran.html ]

|  In news groups, chat rooms and listservs, you are engaging in an
|  interactive dialogue, a conversation, in which you speak and the
|  listeners reply and you can reply to what they say. They can be
|  outraged. They can be offended. They can have a good point to make.
|  
|  A Web site is static. What the Government is saying is that the
|  40 million people who can speak in an interactive dialogue in the
|  other modes of communication on the Internet should post a static
|  message on their Web site. And maybe the people who are in the
|  news group would come to see it, maybe not. But the speaker would
|  not get any feedback. There would be no dialogue.

Technically speaking, the web apparatus is interactive. Users must click
on the Zundelsite link (and when they do, they usually leave rather
quickly). It is not pushed at them. However, it is far from interactive in
the conversational sense.

>  8. It is a profound misconception to assume that the Zundelsite is
>  perceived as a "hate website" that is accessed only or even primarily
>  by individuals seeking to vent their frustration about real or
>  perceived political grievances.

This point is so ridiculous as to be self-refuting. Of course it's a hate
website. I look forward to the day when it's OK for me to say that without
sounding like an apologist for the misguided censors who are trying to
prosecute Mr. Zundel.

>  The Zundelsite is a very sought-after,
>  respected repository for information and documents not available from
>  other conventional sources such as libraries or mainstream
>  publications. These documents are studied by serious students and
>  scholars all over the world. Not infrequently, Ph.D. candidates will
>  contact me via e-mail not just for references but for personal
>  interviews with Mr. Zundel to learn of an alternate point of view on
>  recent European history.

I know of exactly one PhD candidate and exactly one MA candidate who spoke
with Mr. Zundel. They were both interested in the sociological roots of
his warped white nationalism, not his "historical views," which are
readily recognized as propaganda.

[snip...]

>  11. For the past year, all documents appearing on the Zundelsite have
>  been linked through hyperlinks to a website called "Nizkor" opposed to

With the dismissive and insulting text "for relentless Holocaust
promotion" and "for another Jewish point of view" (not that it should
matter, but neither the founder nor the webmaster are Jewish), yes, they
are linked...

>  the Zundelsite point of view and offering the conventional historical
>  point of view. Nizkor is headed by Ken McVay of British Columbia,
>  Canada, and server by co-webmasters Jamie McCarthy of Michigan and
[...] 
>  12. I have maintained an e-mail dialogue with Jamie McCarthy since
>  September of 1995 when he approached the Zundelsite challenging us on
>  disputed matters about World War II and daring us to a comparison of
>  evidence. With mutual consent, a linkage of the two sites resulted for
>  the purpose of providing readers with two opposing points of view.

Information on this, er, dialogue is at
http://www.nizkor.org/other-sites/correspondence/zuendelsite/

>  13. This e-mail dialogue between Jamie McCarthy and me was sometimes
>  amiable and often hostile. Both Jamie McCarthy and I tried to find
>  technical solutions to advance cooperative and mutually beneficial
>  ways to bring us nearer to historical truth - wherever this search may
>  lead. Right now, Jamie McCarthy has offered to write a tailor-made
>  program that would facilitate the linking process. I have agreed to
>  change the document footer accordingly.

This statement is at variance with the facts as I understand them. The
script to which Nizkor has invited Ms. Rimland to link is
http://www.nizkor.org/crosslink-ezundel.cgi

In fact Ms. Rimland has refused to do so.
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/r/rimland.ingrid/crosslinks-01

>  14. In general, however, Nizkor people have routinely been abusive
>  about both Ernst Zundel's motives and my own by stating or implying in
>  various newsgroups that we are "liars" who promote hatred and racism
>  for self-serving ends.

The truth hurts.

>  A recent e-mail from Ken McVay accused me of
>  having posted "some claptrap about truth" and having promoted
>  "forgeries for blatant profit" on Ernst Zundel's behalf.

Specifically, Ms. Rimland and Mr. Zundel are promoting the Lachout
Document, which Ms. Rimland and Mr. Zundel have known to be a forgery for
years.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/austrian/austrian-resistance-archives/lachout-document.html
http://webcom.com/ezundel/english/dsmrd/dsmrd29lachout.html

>  Such posts
>  are very common in newsgroups. I, in turn, have criticized Nizkor in
>  my ZGrams in defense of the Zundelsite point of view, since I believe
>  such labeling serves no constructive purpose.

Specifically, Mr. Zundel and Ms. Rimland have seen fit to criticize me as
a "stalker and potential terrorist" (while printing my home number and
address and encouraging appropriate responses, which turned out to be
somewhat threatening; 
http://www.stanford.edu/~llurch/potw2/harassment/seattle-idiot/ ) and "a
Jew." FWIW, I'm Catholic.

>  15. One specific Zundelsite document, challenged by the Canadian Human
>  Rights Commision as inappropriate for the Internet, called 66
>  Questions and Answers on the Holocaust, was specifically challenged by
>  Nizkor in an extensive rebuttal document prepared by them as a first
>  step to get a dialog between Nizkor and the Zundelsite going.

This is not strictly accurate. The 66 QAR at
http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/ is a response to propaganda that
apparently originated with the IHR, not Mr. Zundel. 

>  This
>  document is available on the Zundelsite, and we are now rebutting the
>  Nizkor rebuttals, expanding and amplifying on the content. This
>  document is well-organized and has specific links to Nizkor. It is a
>  popular sub-part of the Zundelsite and often the focus of vigorous
>  newsgroup debates.

I have never seen it mentioned, since Mr. Zundel and Ms. Rimland are
capable only of repeating themselves.

>  17. I am the author of the well-known ZGrams - daily electronic
>  editorials, columns and news releases on which I carry a copyright. If
>  Mr. Zundel wants to use these columns for hard-copy distribution, he
>  notifies me and asks my permission.

I believe this is a relatively new state of affairs.

>  My ZGrams are reposted on the
>  Internet in newsgroups by friends as well as opposition websites such
>  as Nizkor, and selected ZGrams are reprinted in various hard copy
>  publications.

See any post by zundel-repost@alpha.c2.org.

[propaganda irrelevant to Zundel's case snipped]

>  21. All documents on the Zundelsite are protected by the First
>  Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of American which
>  guarantees freedom of expression. I am an American citizen who counts
>  on this protection from interference coming from another country,
>  Canada.

With this I completely agree. If anyone is suffering from the delusion
that there is anything the Canadian government can do that would shut down
or block the Zundelsite, they should face the facts. If the Human Rights
Commission really wants to counter Mr. Zundel, the answer is better
education in how to recognize and refute hate propaganda such as that
offered by Mr. Zundel and Ms. Rimland without censorship.

- - -rich
 http://www.stanford.edu/~llurch/

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