From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Dec 28 19:08:45 PST 1996
Article: 89620 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: False witness/ethnic ethic/rock ...hard place/desperation
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 03:07:18 -0700
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In article <32c99ed5.4839386@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
wrote:

[snip]

> What does the Simon Wiesenthal Center have to say about
> concentration/extermination camps being located inside Germany itself?
> 
> Here is exactly what it has to say, in question 12 of its
> "Responses to Revisionist Arguments". 
> 
> "12. Didn't Simon Wiesenthal himself state that there were no
> extermination camps in Germany? 
> 
> The Nazis classified their many hundreds of concentration camps
> on their basis of their primary function. In a very real sense, all
> were death camps because the death of the inmates, whether through
> overwork, starvation/disease, or outright murder, was ultimately
> expected.
> 
> Those sites, however, which functioned as extermination centers
> (Auschwitz-Birkenau, Treblinka, Majdanek, Sobibor, Belzec, and
> Chelmno), were specially equipped for the gassing of hundreds of
> thousands of victims each (millions altogether). All of these camps
> were located in Poland, and for good reason. Poland had far more Jews
> than Germany and the rest of Western Europe combined. The Nazis also
> felt that the relative remoteness of Poland's rural areas would also
> minimize reports of mass murder taking place there."

For the rigii unimpaired, the URL for the above is:

http://www.wiesenthal.com/resource/revision.htm#12

> So we can see the simple 'yes' or 'no' answer to this question
> is, 'Yes' Simon Wiesenthal did "state" (admit) there were no
> extermination camps in Germany.

As is typical with many complex issues, the "answer" is usually something
more than a "simple 'yes' or 'no'." A case in point is whether or not
Upper Silesia, and hence Auschwitz, was a part of Germany or not. 

According to the _Enyclopedia of the Holocaust_ (p.107) Auscwhitz was the
"largest Nazi concentration and externimation camp, located 37 miles (60
km) west of Krakow."  The map on page 108 shows that Upper Silesia was a
seperate administrative division from the Generalgouvernement.
Additionally, in _The Destruction of the European Jews_, the map on page
129 of the German occupation of Poland shows that Kracow is but fifteen
miles from the western border of the Generalgouvernment. This would put
Auschwitz _inside_ the "incorporated area" of Poland that was annexed by
Germany. 

What this implies is that Upper Silesia was actually considered by the
Nazis to be a part of Germany. According to Hilberg:

"In discussing the administration of occupied Poland, we have to
distinguish between the authorities in the territories inorporated into
rhe Reich and the so-called 'General Government' (_Generalgouvernement).
The administrative structure in the incorporated territories was not
distuinguishable from the territorial organization in Germany itself. Two
new _Reichsgaue_ had been carved out of the conquered incorporated
territory: Danzig-West Prussia and the Warthland....

"In addition to the two _Reichsgaue_ the incorporated territory contained
two smaller units which were parceled out to neighboring Reich provences.
The provence of East Prussia annexed some territory in this process, and
Silesia became Great Silesia. However, Great Silesia, was a cumbersome
administrative unit, and thus in January 1942, the _Grossgau_ was divided
into two _Gaue_: Lower Silesia (seat Breslau), which contained only old
German territory and was governed by Oberpra"sident and Gauleiter Karl
Hanke, and Uopper Silesia (seat Katowice), which consisted mostly of
incorprated territory and which was placed under Oberpra"sident and
Gauleiter Fritz Bracht. (Hilberg, _Destruction_, pp.130-131.) 

See also:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/auschwitz-in-germany


> Now we are in a better position to consider the following.

Actually, no. As seen above, the Nazis, as evident by the adminstrative
organization of the "incorprated areas," which was the same as in the
Reich, considered Upper Silesia a part of Germany. It is simply that many
historians and others, who in the context of the post-war Polish borders,
have simplified the issue of Upper Silesia being part of Poland as they
were part of "incorporated territories" annexed by force _from_ Poland in
1939. Often ignored is that the Nazis at the time considered Upper Silisia
as part of the Reich and governed it as such. 

> Some former inmates and a few historians have claimed that Jews were
> put to death in gas chambers at Bergen-Belsen. 

Specific cites please. Such vague and unsupported claims from a proven
liar are immediately suspect. 

>  For example, an "authoritative" work published shortly after the end of the 
> war, A History of World War II, informed readers: "In Belsen, [Commandant]
> Kramer kept an orchestra to play him Viennese music while he watched
> children torn from their mothers to be burned alive. Gas chambers
> disposed of thousands of persons daily."

Again, specific cites please. Such vague and unsupported claims from a
proven liar are immediately suspect. 

> In 'Jews, God and History', Jewish historian Max Dimont wrote of
> gassings at Bergen-Belsen. (note 32) A semi-official work published in
> Poland in 1981 claimed that women and babies were "put to death in gas
> chambers" at Belsen. 

Could the Moran(tm) please clarify (i.e. ask his handler Mr. Kennady
about) the above? The Moran(tm) combines two seperate claims (i.e Dimont
and an unamed "semi-official work") with neither being properly cited. On
what page did Dimont write that homicide gassings took place at
Bergen-Belsen? How many were killed? What is the title of this
"semi-official work" published in Poland? Who is its author? When was it
published? On what page did it say that that "women and babies" were 'put
to death in gas chambers" at Bergen-Belsen? How many were killed? 

Again, specific cites are required. Such claims from a proven liar are
immediately suspect. 

> In 1945 the Associated Press news agency reported: 
> 
> In Lueneburg, Germany, a Jewish physician, testifying at the
> trial of 45 men and women for war crimes at the Belsen and Oswiecim
> [Auschwitz] concentration camps, said that 80,000 Jews, representing
> the entire ghetto of Lodz, Poland, had been gassed or burned to death
> in one night at the Belsen camp. 

Again, a specific cite please. Such claims from a proven liar are
immediately suspect. 

> Five decades after the camp's liberation, British army Captain Robert
> Daniell recalled seeing "the gas chambers" there.
> 
> Years after the war, Robert Spitz, a Hungarian Jew, remembered taking
> a shower at Belsen in February 1945: "... It was delightful. What I
> didn't know then was that there were other showers in the same
> building where gas came out instead of water." 

Again, a specific cite please. Such claims from a proven liar are
immediately suspect. 

> Another former inmate, Moshe Peer, recalled a miraculous escape from
> death as an eleven-year-old in the camp. In a 1993 interview with a
> Canadian newspaper, the French-born Peer claimed that he "was sent to
> the [Belsen] camp gas chamber at least six times." The newspaper
> account went on to relate: "Each time he survived, watching
> with horror as many of the women and children gassed with him
> collapsed and died. To this day, Peer doesn't know how he was able to
> survive." In an effort to explain the miracle, Peer mused: "Maybe
> children resist better, I don't know." (Although Peer claimed that
> "Bergen-Belsen was worse than Auschwitz," he acknowledged that he and
> his younger brother and sister, who were deported to the camp in
> 1944, all somehow survived internment there. 

Again, a specific cite please. Such claims from a proven liar are
immediately suspect. 

> Holding to the one time extensively proposed claim of
> extermination camps in Germany was just too difficult to maintain and
> it had to be dropped from the center of the Holocaust story down to
> it's current standing.

On the contrary! For those interested in understanding such details as
above it reveals that the Nazis themselves considered Upper Silesia a part
of the German Reich. That some (i.e the Moran(tm)) choose to not delve
into such details for a more complete understanding does not invalidate
said details that indicate that Auschwitz _was_, in fact, according to the
Nazis, located in Germany circa 1939-1945. 

>         The way the Simon Wiesenthal Center puts it to introduce it's
> "Answers to Revisionist Arguments" No.12, "Didn't Simon Wiesenthal
> himself state that there were no extermination camps in Germany?"
> could be 'Didn't Simon Wiesenthal himself have to admit ...'.

Given the above it is becomes arguable that Mr. Wiesenthal was simplifying
the issue by addressing the question based on post-WWII national
boundries. 

> Whatever it was that brought Simon Wiesenthal to acknowledge
> there were no extermination camps in Germany we don't know. 

How odd. Did not Mr. Wiesenthal clearly state that: 

"...All of these camps were located in Poland, and for good reason. Poland
had far  more Jews than Germany and the rest of Western Europe combined.
The Nazis also felt that the relative remoteness of Poland's rural areas
would also minimize reports of mass murder taking place there."

Moran(tm) to say, in light of Mr. Wiesenthal _reasons_, that "we don't
know" what "brought Simon Wiesenthal to acknowledge there were no
extermination camps in Germany" is simply yet another example of the
Moran's(tm) disingenousness- and his on-going mendacious pogrom of
maligning of Mr. Wiesenthal at every oppurtunity he can. Such behavior by
the Moran(tm) is hardly new, of course. The Moran(tm) passes up no
opportunity to malign Jews and others who defend the Holocaust from
mendacious attacks by deniers, as well as spew his anti-Semitic drivel
without provocation.      

> But it is obvious that when we put the testimonies to the Wiesenthal 
> admission we have a 'between the rock and the hard spot' situation.

The only person "between the rock and the hard spot" here, given the
above, is the Moran(tm) as he is once more exposed for the shallow-minded
and anti-Semitic denier he is. 

> Even though he and others may have a different way of putting it,
> the eyewitnesses were real authentic 'false witnesses', a conclusion
> round about attested to by Simon Wiesenthal himself.

Really? Perhaos, given the above, the Moran(tm) would care to explain this
leap of denier faith? 

>         The cruel, cruel twists of the ongoing Holocaust saga. 

Indeed. Too bad the Moran(tm) appears incabale, by the simple reason his
anti-semitism blinds him, of realizing the cruel twists were caused by the
Nazis with their "Final Solution to the Jewish Question." 

> No wonder Simon Wiesenthal and Company are so desperate to incite
> legislation to have Holocaust doubting made a crime.

Rather, it is no wonder that anti-Semitites, Nazi apologists, and
Holocaust deniers put forward such lies and half-truths in lieu of the
turth of the historical record when denying the Holocaust. 


The Moran (tm)  is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semite engaged in
blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi apologia, and Holocaust denial.
The Moran (tm) generally conducted himself with such a complete lack of
intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in
taking the time to read and respond.  For detailed and documented evidence
of this, please refer to:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom

But what else should one expect from a lying anti-Semite who holds wacko
beliefs, is intellectually depraved, hasn't the slightest clue regarding
Supreme Court decisions, or what constitutes a dud at the  box-office? For
evidence of this please see:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/1996/what-moran-believes.9607
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies/hilberg-out-of-context
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-menorah-faq
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-schindler-faq



Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
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