Archive/File: holocaust/usa/codoh rv.1094
Last-Modified: 1994/11/01

Article 16783 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
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The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device (golux@mcs.com) wrote:
: In article , wmcguire@world.std.com
: (Wayne McGuire) wrote:

: In fact, there is a small-scale model of an Auschwitz (I think) gas
: chamber and crematorium.  It is done in white (or off-white) plaster or
: plastic, I'm not sure which.  It depicts the environs around a gas
: chamber, and takes up something like 5x8 feet.  One walks around it and
: sees, at one point, a line of people waiting to descend into the anteroom
: of the gas chamber.  There is no representation of people dying in the gas
: chamber, so eager Nazis will have to use their imaginations.  When you
: walk around the model, there is a corner behind the building in which
: guards are shooting a prisoner.  There are small plaques describing the
: sequence of murder.

But this is precisely the model Dr. Faurisson is talking about in the 
original posting in this thread.  I know it's a long way back, but it's 
worth going back and (re)reading.


            Ross Vicksell



Article 16785 of alt.revisionism:
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From: annya666@aol.com (AnnyA666)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
Date: 1 Oct 1994 12:17:02 -0400
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In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
Vicksell) writes:

>As I have have told you before, CODOH's primary mission is, as the name 
>implies, is the promotion of open debate on the Holocaust.  This does not

>necessarily involve engaging in the debate.

Honestly!  You are employed by a group whose purpose is to promote debate
in THEORY but not in practice?  I find that unnecessarily convoluted.  If
the subject is worth debating (forensically speaking) it should not need a
group dedicated to promoting debate in addition to the group doing the
debating. If you want to promote 'debate' why not form a national group to
promote forensics?  Why specify the Holocaust as a topic?

BTW, I don't think that 'The Holocaust' is a debatable subject,
forensically speaking.  You can only debate a question, not whether or not
something happened. 

It seems to me that the whole idea of  Holocaust 'revisionism' is to
revise hsitory for the sake of revising--hence claims that this historian
or that has engaged in 'revisionism' here and there.  It's a theoretical
excecise, not a factual one.  

Which makes me wonder what the theory is?  Who or what are you debating? 
Is it historians in general?  I doubt it, since your group not called
Committee for Open Debate of History.  I can only think of one question in
this topic that is truly debatable--have Jews conned the world into
thinking there was a Holocaust?  Funny, though, that is one topic I don't
see promoted very often in so-called revisionist literature.  I see,
instead, endless picaune nitpicking about how long it takes to kill, or
where a document came from...none of that classically debatable.

Could it be you and your organization have lost sight of the true purpose
of your group?  Seems like that to me.



Article 16789 of alt.revisionism:
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From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
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Date: Sat, 1 Oct 1994 09:45:47 GMT
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In article ,
codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote:

//: Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas chambers - J.C Pressac,
//: the Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, NY, 1989.
//
//They're blueprints of morgues, not gas chambers.

Is this true, Danny?

I am having trouble locating the book.

What exactly is the Beate Klarsfeld Foundation? Are they an
internationally respected publisher of first-class scholarly
works, like the Harvard University Press or Oxford University
Press? Who funds them? Do they have an agenda or a strong point
of view on the Holocaust?

I am trying to get a feel for the credibility of this book you
mention and its publisher, while I try to locate a copy.

Do the blueprints of gas chambers (or morgues?) appear in books
issued by reputable scholarly publishers that I would be able to
find more easily?

Thanks


Article 16790 of alt.revisionism:
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From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Subject: Re: Ike and the "Death Camps."
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In article ,
codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote:

//     When American and British forces overran western and central
//Germany in the spring of 1945, they were followed by troops charged
//with discovering and securing any evidence of German war crimes. Among
//them was Dr. Charles Larson, one of America's leading forensic
//pathologists, who was assigned to the Judge Advocate General's
//Department. Dr. Larson performed autopsies at Dachau and some twenty
//other German camps, examining on some days more than 100 corpses. After
//his grim work at Dachau, he was questioned for three days by U.S. Army
//prosecutors.^1
//
//     Dr. Larson's findings? According to an interview he gave to an
//American journalist in 1980, "What we've heard is that six million Jews
//were exterminated. Part of that is a hoax."^2 And what part was the
//hoax? Dr. Larson, who told his biographer that to his knowledge he "was
//the only forensic pathologist on duty in the entire European
//Theater,"^3 informed "Wichita Eagle" reporter Jan Floerchinger that
//"never was a case of poison gas uncovered."^4 Neither Dr. Larson nor
//any other forensic specialist has ever been cited by any Holocaust
//historian to substantiate a single case of death by poison gas, whether
//Zyklon-B or any other variety.

Could the anti-revisionists respond to this specific point?
Particularly the last sentence in the passage.


Article 16796 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
Date: Sat, 01 Oct 1994 12:52:13 -0400
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codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote:

> There are cyanide traces in all sorts of Auschwitz buildings that weren't 
> gas chambers.  They used the stuff for fumigation of buildings, not just 
> fumigation of clothes.

"All sorts of":  okay, name three.

Emailed to Mr. Vicksell.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "...just consider alt.revisionism a suburb of talk.bizarre
  and everything starts falling into place."  - Steve Miller


Article 16798 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
Date: Sat, 01 Oct 1994 12:57:10 -0400
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codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote:

> Jamie McCarthy (k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu) wrote:
> 
> : I'm not interested in innuendo or speaking in riddles.  Whether or
> : not a museum built in the 1990s has a model of a gas chamber, has
> : absolutely no bearing on what happened in Europe in the 1940s.
> : You insinuate that it does.  But I'm not interested in insinuation.
> 
> If the number one Holocaust think tank in the world, this side of Yad 
> Vashem, doesn't know what a gas chamber looks like, who does?

Now you're insinuating that, because they didn't put up a full-size
replica of a gas chamber for people to walk through, they don't know
what the real gas chambers looked like.

I'm not interested in insinuation.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "...just consider alt.revisionism a suburb of talk.bizarre
  and everything starts falling into place."  - Steve Miller


Article 16799 of alt.revisionism:
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From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
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In article <36ka9n$8dm@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) wrote:
//Wayne McGuire  wrote:
//
//# I am trying to get a feel for the credibility of this book you
//# mention and its publisher, while I try to locate a copy.
//
//Wayne, I suggest that you just read the book. Then, decide for
//yourself.

Could you just give me a feel for the reputation of the
publisher? On a scale of 1 to 10, if 1 is a hardcore propaganda
outfit, and 10 is a publisher with an international reputation
for the highest objective scholarly standards (like the Harvard
University Press or Oxford University Press), how does the Beate
Klarsfeld Foundation rank? Who funds it? What other books does it
publish? Does it have a specific political agenda?

Have any major publishers or works cited the Pressac book as
authoritative during the five years since it was originally
published?


Article 16800 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Ever been there?
In-Reply-To: codfish@netcom.com's message of Fri, 30 Sep 1994 08:20:46 GMT
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) [responding to me]
>: What evidence exists that the Nazis actually used Zyklon-B in gas
>: chambers to disinfest clothing or similar or that this was a common or
>: ordinary practice?
>
>The disinfecting chamber at Dachau, for example.

That's evidence?

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 16801 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Ike and the "Death Camps."
In-Reply-To: wmcguire@world.std.com's message of Sat, 1 Oct 1994 09:56:39 GMT
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>Dr. Larson performed autopsies at Dachau and some twenty
                                   ^^^^^^
>//other German camps, examining on some days more than 100 corpses. After
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>//his grim work at Dachau, he was questioned for three days by U.S. Army
>//prosecutors.^1
	...
>//"never was a case of poison gas uncovered."^4 Neither Dr. Larson nor

From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
>Could the anti-revisionists respond to this specific point?

The mass extermination facilities using poison gas were in Poland.

You've been taken in again by the revisionists and their sleazy
half-truths.

No doubt looking up the article will find things taken out of context
if not just fabricated. I remember someone looked into this Wichita
Eagle "article" and it turned out to be something sleazy like not an
article at all but ad space taken out by revisionists.

They take out ad space in newspapers and then quote their own ads as
if they were legitimate articles appearing in the newspapers. Nice,
huh?

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 16802 of alt.revisionism:
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From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
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In article <36k21u$mju@newsbf01.news.aol.com>, annya666@aol.com (AnnyA666) wrote:

//BTW, I don't think that 'The Holocaust' is a debatable subject,
//forensically speaking.  You can only debate a question, not whether or not
//something happened.

This is wrong. What the Holocaust was precisely, how it happened,
and why it happened, will always be wide open for debate, like
any other historical topic.

There have been at least three reputable and legitimate
revisionist studies that have appeared on the Holocaust in the
last decade or two:

1) Paul Johnson's Modern Times

2) Tom Segev's The Seventh Million

3) Arno Mayer's Why Did the Heavens Not Darken?

In fact, these are the three works that currently I would most
recommend on the Holocaust, in exactly that order.

I would be curious to see what three leading books on the
Holocaust all the other participants here would recommend.
What three books would you recommend?

Paul Johnson's Modern Times is not primarily about the Holocaust.
But he places Nazism and Fascism in the context of a violent
messianic movement--Marxism--which bears a good deal of the
responsibility for creating a world in which political mass
murder could occur on the scale of the Holocaust and greater. The
messianic right imitated many of the methods of the messianic
left, and the messianic left worked hard to undermine and destroy
the civil order which was a barrier to the rise of demagogues
like Hitler. Johnson discusses all of this eloquently.

Recently serious historians have raised all sorts of questions
about the quality of information and evidence presented at the
Nuremberg Trials. Their investigations could lead to major
modifications in our understanding of the Holocaust. This is
revisionism at its best, and necessary revisionism.

I've noticed a tendency among the anti-revisionists to try to
totally polarize the debate and to demonize anyone who disagrees
with them. Either "the Holocaust" occurred or it didn't,
according to their simplistic black and white world. There is a
vast spectrum of space between those two positions in which all
sorts of interesting discussion and research can and will occur.


Article 16803 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ike and the "Death Camps."
Date: Sat, 01 Oct 1994 13:30:32 -0400
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wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) wrote:

> codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote:
> 
> //     Dr. Larson's findings? According to an interview he gave to an
> //American journalist in 1980, "What we've heard is that six million Jews
> //were exterminated. Part of that is a hoax."^2 And what part was the
> //hoax? Dr. Larson, who told his biographer that to his knowledge he "was
> //the only forensic pathologist on duty in the entire European
> //Theater,"^3 informed "Wichita Eagle" reporter Jan Floerchinger that
> //"never was a case of poison gas uncovered."^4 Neither Dr. Larson nor
> //any other forensic specialist has ever been cited by any Holocaust
> //historian to substantiate a single case of death by poison gas, whether
> //Zyklon-B or any other variety.
> 
> Could the anti-revisionists respond to this specific point?
> Particularly the last sentence in the passage.

The point made in that last sentence is that no Holocaust historian has
_asked_ a pathologist to "substantiate" any deaths by poison gas.

Whatever the hell "substantiate" means.

Historians, as you'll recall, deal with history.  At the time the camps
were being invaded, the people walking around and discovering the ovens
and gas chambers and buried corpses and mounds of ash were soldiers.

The historians were safe in bed, and wouldn't find out about it all
until the newspapers starting printing it.

Apparently what this last sentence is suggesting is that the historians,
as soon as the gas chambers were found, should have hopped out of bed,
called up their "forensic specialist" friends, and run to the camps
in the dead of night.  The military of course wouldn't have let them in,
so they should have tunneled under the fence, found a few corpses that
the G.I.s hadn't yet gotten around to giving a decent burial, and begun
conducting autopsies, complete with chemical analysis of hemoglobin, to
determine that the agent of death really was hydrocyanic acid.

Either that, or:  it's suggesting that the historians, in say 1954,
should have snapped their fingers and said "hey, let's just make doubly
sure this Holocaust thing really happened and isn't the greatest hoax
of all time, perpetrated by Soviet Jews."  Then they would have gone
to Belzec and dug up a few bodies and taken them home to work on.
A little gruesome, sure, and there's this thing about disturbing the
remains of the dead, but why should that stand in the way of the
demands of crackpots forty years in the future who would ignore all
existing evidence anyway?

Does that make it a little clearer, Wayne?
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "...just consider alt.revisionism a suburb of talk.bizarre
  and everything starts falling into place."  - Steve Miller


Article 16805 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
Date: 29 Sep 1994 08:28 MST
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In article , wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) writes...
>In article ,
>golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device) wrote:
> 
>//1.  It is not a "remarkable fact" that there is no reconstruction of a gas
>//chamber at the Holocaust Museum.  It is merely a fact.
> 
>It strikes me as odd that gas chambers are not prominently
>featured at the HMM (if this is indeed the case--I haven't seen
>the HMM with my own eyes).

    I don't know either.  One poster here said there was a model of a gas
    chamber.

    But if there are few models in the museum it does not strike me that
    odd.  I visited the Gestapo Museum in Berlin (it is built in the burned
    out basement torutre chambers under the old Gestapo building.)  That
    museum consisted of basically pictures and essays on the walls
    describing the Gestapo and its victems.  There was no reconstruction of
    an active torture chamber.  It never occurred to me until now that
    there might have been one.  The pictures were sufficient.

>I've already explained why: the Holocaust story as I learned it
>growing up on the popular culture of movies, television, novels,
>comic books and the like focused relentlessly on the gas chamber.

    I must have missed the popular culture you saw.  Can you tell me the
    movies (from the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s) that you saw, the tv shows you
    saw, the novels you read, and the comics you perused which gave you
    this story which featured gas chambers?

    Frankly, I suspect you are exaggerating.

>The special diabolical horror of the Holocaust, in the popular
>story, was centered on the industrial precision with which the
>Nazis annihilated their victims. The clear message of the popular
>story is that the Nazis murdered millions of people in assembly
>line fashion via sophisticated gas chamber technology.

    I never  quite got that impression from what little I read and saw. 
    Again, can you tell me your media sources for such a statement?

>The Holocaust = the gas chamber, in the popular story.

    Most of what I know about the holocaust comes from reading this
    conference for the last 18 months.  That has never been my impression
    here.  There has always been open discussion of the many different ways
    prisoners died.

>To find gas chambers barely mentioned at the HMM (is this really
>the case?) will definitely create some cognitive dissonance for
>anyone steeped in the Hollywood version of the Holocaust created
>during the fifties, sixties, seventies, and eighties.

    Huh?  Since when does Hollywood dictate history anyway (assuming in the
    first place they even protrayed this as you assert.)  Have historians
    changed what they say about the holocaust?

>Is the HMM itself making something of a quiet revisionist
>statement about the role of the gas chambers in the Holocaust?
>Is it possible that the role of the gas chamber was slightly
>exaggerated in the Hollywood version of the Holocaust? (This is
>an actual, not a rhetorical, question. I don't know.)

    Ah.  So you make all sorts of accusations above, and now you say your
    don't know and are just asking questions.  You sure are a disengenuous
    sod, aren't you?

> [anti Marxist hyperbole deleted.]

>A statistical question: precisely how many people were killed in
>gas chambers, and precisely how were these statistics arrived at?
>Is this a subject about which there is no debate among serious
>and respectable historians?

    Data along these lines has been posted in a.r before.  I am sure
    someone who has that data will repost it for you shortly.

===========================================================================
daniel david mittleman     -     danny@arizona.edu     -     (602) 621-2932


Article 16808 of alt.revisionism:
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From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Subject: Marxist Holocaust Denial
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Date: Sat, 1 Oct 1994 18:51:12 GMT
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In article ,
flax@Krille.update.uu.se (Jonas Flygare) wrote:

//   And would this apply any less to the Marxists who murdered over
//   100 million innocent civilians in this century?
//   Marxists--especially the dictatorship of the Marxist
//   intelligentsia--felt hatred and contempt for anybody who was not
//   one of them. And this attitude was eminently evident in the
//   founder of Marxism himself--Karl Marx. He was a truly nasty
//   specimen.
//
//[Ahhh, I should have guessed, back to your pet peeve.. When you are
//faced with a statement that you can not counter easily, you turn to
//the good ole marxist hatred of yours..

Hey, everybody, check this out!

If you object to the murder of 100 million innocent civilians by
Marxists in this century, and the total ruination of many
nations--economically, socially, and culturally--for decades,
you've got a "pet peeve" and are indulging in "hatred" of
Marxism.

When six million Jews are murdered by the Nazis, this is a
serious matter.

When 100 million people are murdered by Marxists, complaining
about this fact is a "pet peeve" and a manifestation of "Marxist
hatred."

Flygare is one of the folks I know well from
talk.politics.mideast, where he displayed his militant Zionism at
length, with a high ratio of personal abuse to facts, rational
arguments, and solid documentation. It's interesting to see that
he is also an apologist for Marxism. Actually, Zionism and
Marxism are closely linked: most of the early Zionists were
passionate Marxists, and a Marxist culture still permeates much
of Israeli society--much to its detriment and economic health.

I've been gathering together all the Marxist apologetics in this
newsgroup from the anti-revisionist side; they provide remarkable
support for Eugene Genovese's charge in the Summer Dissent that
significant sectors of the left have not come to terms with the
horrific damage that has been wrought in this century by leftist
political movements.

I always love it when die-hard Marxists beg, just give us one
more chance! This time we'll get it right!

How stupid can you get? How many more tens of millions of lives
would you have to take before the truth sank in that Marxism
doesn't work in the real world and ruins everything it touches?


Article 16809 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
Date: Sat, 01 Oct 1994 17:44:51 -0400
Organization: University of Michigan
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wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) wrote:

> Could you just give me a feel for the reputation of the
> publisher?

I can't help you here.  I think the Beate Klarsfeld foundation
must be pretty small, because I haven't heard of it except as
the publisher of Pressac's most important work.  I could be
wrong.

> Have any major publishers or works cited the Pressac book as
> authoritative during the five years since it was originally
> published?

Um, _Auschwitz: Technique and Operation_ is considered by many
to be _the_ best factual refutation of revisionist claims about
Auschwitz.  It was the first large collection of facts and
evidence that was intended to "prove" the gas chambers.  And
it's hard for me to judge because I haven't ever seen a copy of
the book (grumble stupid libraries grumble) -- but the feeling
seems to be that, in the few years since it's been published,
it has been and still is the definitive refutation.

It's often attacked by revisionists, but never very successfully,
if such "negative reputation" means anything.

Pressac was mentored by Faurisson for a while;  Pressac actually
believed for quite a while that the gas chambers were a hoax.
But everything he kept reading proved otherwise to him, and he
changed his mind.  Not one of Faurisson's big successes.


I wanted to comment on something else you wrote, Wayne, that
isn't worth a whole article but needs pointing out:

> There have been at least three reputable and legitimate
> revisionist studies that have appeared on the Holocaust in the
> last decade or two:
> 
> 3) Arno Mayer's Why Did the Heavens Not Darken?

The people usually referred to in this forum as "revisionists,"
Holocaust-deniers, often claim Mayer as one of their own.  This
is mostly because Mayer makes some questionable claims in the
book you cite.  One such is that more people died at Auschwitz
of starvation, overwork, and disease, than by direct and outright
murder.  I don't know of any other historians that would agree
with that, and Mayer doesn't give figures to back that claim up.
He does agree that over a million people died at Auschwitz,
the vast majority Jews.

Anyway -- Mayer is a legitimate revisionist historian, a scholar.
He is thus distinguished from Holocaust-deniers, who call
themselves "revisionist scholars," but who dabble in innuendo,
ignorance, trickery, and outright lies.

Just wanted to make that absolutely clear.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "...just consider alt.revisionism a suburb of talk.bizarre
  and everything starts falling into place."  - Steve Miller


Article 16810 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
Date: Sat, 01 Oct 1994 14:09:36 -0400
Organization: University of Michigan
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codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote:

> : # I would like to see a blueprint of a gas chamber, with all the
> : # appropriate cites. Would you please post it? Thanks.

[a reference to one provided]

> They're blueprints of morgues, not gas chambers.

This is the first trick in the book of denier tactics:  circular
proof, disguised by smoke and mirrors.

They present an outlandish claim, like saying that there are no
blueprints of the Nazi gas chambers.  Or that no one is able to
draw Faurisson a picture of a gas chamber.  Or that there are
no photographs of gas chambers.

They hope that no one calls their bluff and says, "what in the
hell are you talking about, of course there are;  of course they
can;  of course there are."

And if that happens, they simply fall back on the party line,
which is that there are no gas chambers, they were simply morgues.

Get it?  There are no blueprints of gas chambers, so the logical
conclusion is that they never existed.  And why are there no
blueprints?  _Because_ the gas chambers never existed.

And they wonder why scholars never take them seriously!


OK, Ross, let's take your assertion and run with it.  You've just
said that Leichenkeller 1, the gas chamber in Krema II, is a
morgue.  (I have on my hard drive a GIF of the blueprint to that
room, but unfortunately I don't have a cite for it;  I hope to
rectify that within the next week.  If you'd like the GIF and/or
the cite, just say so.)

So, if that room is a morgue:

* why does it have a ventilation system?

   (Don't say "to ventilate out the Zyklon-B used to disinfect it;
   everyone knows that Zyklon-B is useless for killing bacteria.)

* why did Leuchter find Prussian Blue compounds, formed by extended
  contact with cyanide gas, at the "morgue" at Krema I?
 
   (Ditto.)

* why do Allied photos of it show holes in the roof?
 
   (They were to drop in the Zyklon-B.)

* why did the SS guards blow up the "morgues" before fleeing the
  camp?

   (They had something to hide.)

* why were each of these "morgues" not at the hospital, but rather
  near an undressing room and a cremation oven?

* why did Auschwitz need so many morgues?

   (Leichenkeller 1 is a huge room, and there's another just like
   it, plus two more than I think were a little smaller.  As Danny
   Keren wrote just over two years ago:)

   So, according to our brave "revisionist", Auschwitz had the
   following:
   
   Krematorium II and III, each having one "morgue" measuring 7 X 30
   meters, and another "morgue" measuring 8 X 50 meters.
   
   Krematoriums IV and V, each having a "morgue" measuring 12 X 48
   meters.
   
   All in all - "morgues" totaling 2,372 sqaure meters (!!!).
   
   A total of 52 crematorium furnaces, which - according to the SS
   correspondance - could burn 4,756 corpses in 24 working hours.
   
   Can anyone in his right mind think that such a number of cremation
   furnaces and such a huge "morgue" area were planned for anything
   but mass murder? I think not.
   
   But perhaps it is too optimistic to expect an objective analysis of
   the facts from people who write books like "The Hitler We Loved and
   Why"?


And the response to these questions will be the second trick in
the book of denier tactics:  a failure to reply to the facts of
the matter, and then, some weeks or months later, a repetition of
the original assertion.

Emailed to Mr. Vicksell.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "...just consider alt.revisionism a suburb of talk.bizarre
  and everything starts falling into place."  - Steve Miller


Article 16811 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!news.kei.com!world!wmcguire
From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Subject: Marxist Holocaust Denial
Message-ID: 
Sender: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die
References:   <366a8a$lc2@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>  <29SEP199408284163@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu>
Date: Sat, 1 Oct 1994 19:11:23 GMT
Lines: 27

In article <29SEP199408284163@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu>,
dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

//> [anti Marxist hyperbole deleted.]

Here we go again with the weird Marxist apologetics.

How in the world can one be hyperbolic about a global political
movement which exterminated 100 million innocent civilians and
destroyed entire nations?

If this is not a serious matter, then how can the lesser damage
inflicted by the Nazis be taken seriously? When you put all the
numbers of all kinds together, Marxist criminality in its
destructive effects was many times more serious than Nazism in
this century.

Making this assertion is, I suppose, a form of revisionism. But
who could possibly deny its truth when you look at all the facts
OBJECTIVELY?

Eugene Genovese, a former hardcore Marxist insider himself, is
right: significant portions of the traditional political left
have a screw loose, and have a lot of explaining to do. And you
are going to see more and more historians hold their feet to the
fire and force them to do that explaining. They will not be
allowed to wiggle away.


Article 16812 of alt.revisionism:
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From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Subject: Re: Ike and the "Death Camps."
Message-ID: 
Sender: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die
References: 
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Date: Sat, 1 Oct 1994 19:20:03 GMT
Lines: 39

In article ,
k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

//The point made in that last sentence is that no Holocaust historian has
//_asked_ a pathologist to "substantiate" any deaths by poison gas.

Were any deaths ever substantiated or proven by poison gas? I
would have thought that Allied military intelligence, which
included medical experts, would have taken some interest in this
question.

//Apparently what this last sentence is suggesting is that the historians,
//as soon as the gas chambers were found....

When were they found and where were they found? What was the
reaction of Allied military intelligence? How did they document
the finds?

//              The military of course wouldn't have let them in,
//so they should have tunneled under the fence, found a few corpses that
//the G.I.s hadn't yet gotten around to giving a decent burial, and begun
//conducting autopsies, complete with chemical analysis of hemoglobin, to
//determine that the agent of death really was hydrocyanic acid.

So then no autopsies were performed? Is this the case?

//Does that make it a little clearer, Wayne?

A little clearer, but not entirely clear.

How long would it take for the evidence of gassing to disappear
from the victims? Days? Weeks? Months?

As soon as I discovered the gas chambers--and this would be a
horrific, stupendous find, one which would grab your full
attention--I would have wanted to explore the subject thoroughly.
I keep wondering what the take of Allied military intelligence
was on all this. Military intelligence is paid to be nosy and
curious.


Article 16813 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
Date: 1 Oct 1994 18:29:32 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 9
Message-ID: <36k9qc$84t@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References: <366hls$qli@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <3eiYk0yNUMbJ069yn@world.std.com> <36en9b$bi5@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> 
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Ross Vicksell  wrote:

# They're blueprints of morgues, not gas chambers.

Well, according to everyone who was there, the people were alive when
they walked into these "morgues".


-Danny Keren.


Article 16814 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Goeth's arrest
Date: Sat, 01 Oct 1994 14:20:45 -0400
Organization: University of Michigan
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codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote:

> :     What bizarre delusions these revisionists have about their 
> : influence.  Spielberg gave only an indirect mention of the gas chambers.  
> : I have no idea if Spielberg even knows that revisionists exist.  The 
> : movie certainly has nothing to do with attempting to prove the existence 
> : of gas chambers. 
> 
> What does?

Well, for starters, things discussed every day here on alt.revisionism.

Himmler's Poznan speech, to name the example that I'm trying to get
everyone to talk about.

I've been trying for nearly the last five months.

Greg Raven ignored it for four months, gave a weak, cursory overview
of a reply, and when that reply was demolished, he vanished off the
net.

When I asked _you_ to talk about it privately, Mr. Vicksell, you said
you didn't want to get into it.

Mr. Smith is ignoring it.

Mr. Berg ignored it.

Landpost has been the only one to dive in, and of course we all have
seen how well he did.  The only thing he could do was insist that
"Ausrottung" means something other than "extermination," despite the
evidence to the contrary of many dictionary excerpts posted, and all
the native German speakers who saw fit to comment.

I've _repeatedly_ made the offer, for the last two years, that I'll
discuss any single topic with any revisionist.  The only restrictions
are that the topic has to be narrow enough to allow focused
discussion (certainly I won't limit it to one _document_ as Raven
tried to do), and it has to be the topic that the revisionist feels
best makes the case that the Holocaust never happened.

No one has taken me up on it.  No revisionist has offered.  Landpost
said he would but then backed down.

So I guess alt.revisionism certainly has nothing to do with attempting
to prove the _nonexistence_ of gas chambers.

The question is:

What does?
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "...just consider alt.revisionism a suburb of talk.bizarre
  and everything starts falling into place."  - Steve Miller


Article 16817 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
Date: 1 Oct 1994 18:37:43 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <36ka9n$8dm@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
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Wayne McGuire  wrote:

## They're blueprints of morgues, not gas chambers.

# Is this true, Danny?

No.
 
# I am having trouble locating the book.

Harvard must have a copy somewhere - Brown U. has one. 

# I am trying to get a feel for the credibility of this book you
# mention and its publisher, while I try to locate a copy.

Wayne, I suggest that you just read the book. Then, decide for
yourself. The book is not very easy to read, I know. But it has
a large collection of photographs and documents of the SS building
department at Auschwitz.

If you want to wait, I heard there's a new book coming out, written
by Prof. Van-Pelt. Unfortunately, I don't know who publishes it and
if it appeared already.
 
# Do the blueprints of gas chambers (or morgues?) appear in books
# issued by reputable scholarly publishers that I would be able to
# find more easily?

Some of them do, but Pressac contains the largest number.


-Danny Keren.




Article 16818 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ike and the "Death Camps."
Date: Sat, 01 Oct 1994 17:57:22 -0400
Organization: University of Michigan
Lines: 52
Message-ID: 
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wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) wrote:

> Were any deaths ever substantiated or proven by poison gas? I
> would have thought that Allied military intelligence, which
> included medical experts, would have taken some interest in this
> question.

Define "substantiated or proven."

Hell yes, lots of deaths have been substantiated and proven.
About a million at Auschwitz, two million at the Reinhard camps.
The history section of your local library is full of proof and
substantiation.

But you appear to be looking for something more specific.  What
would satisfy you?  Autopsies?  You can't autopsy ashes.

[re the gas chambers]

> When were they found and where were they found? What was the
> reaction of Allied military intelligence? How did they document
> the finds?

I've no idea.

> So then no autopsies were performed? Is this the case?

Look, no offense, Wayne, but have you considered looking up the
answers to these questions yourself?

> How long would it take for the evidence of gassing to disappear
> from the victims? Days? Weeks? Months?

Hours.

The Auschwitz victims were dragged to the cremation ovens after
they died.  You can't do autopsies on piles of ashes, remember?

(I should have pointed that out in my first article, I suppose.)

I believe that there are still mass graves of uncremated bodies
at one or more Reinhard camps, though the Nazis did dig up and
incinerate many mass graves.  Those were the only other camps
to employ gassing on a mass scale.  They used CO, however, a
different gas.  Suffice it to say that I'd be very, very
surprised if either (a) any chemical traces of CO remained 50
years later, or (b) the Allies had gotten a chance to check out
the camps before they were abandoned in 1943.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "...just consider alt.revisionism a suburb of talk.bizarre
  and everything starts falling into place."  - Steve Miller


Article 16820 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ike and the "Death Camps."
Date: 1 Oct 1994 18:56:53 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <36kbdl$99d@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References:  <7HIZk0yNUASC069yn@world.std.com>  
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

Wayne McGuire  wrote:

# How long would it take for the evidence of gassing to disappear
# from the victims? Days? Weeks? Months?

The corpses of the people taken out from the gas chambers were
usually cremated, or burned, at once. It was different in the 
"Einsatz Reinhard" camps, where they were burned much later.

I have a GIF file of a photograph taken in Maidanek after the 
liberation, showing a pile of burned corpses right outside the
crematorium. These people may have been gassed. I doubt anyone
autopsied their corpses, and what such an autopsy would prove,
after they were burned.

Wayne, I think that what confuses you is that you think that
the tens-of-thousand of corpses at Bergen-Belsen and other
camps inside the "Old Reich" are corpses of people who were gassed.
This is false. These people were starved to death or died
from epidemics. 

Again, there were not many gas chambers inside the "Old Reich"
camps and not many people were gassed in them. The mass gassing
took place in the death camps the SS built in nazi-occupied
Poland. 


-Danny Keren.




Article 16821 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Vicksell's astounding leap of logic..
References:   
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1994Oct02.222429.6914@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Sun, 02 Oct 94 22:24:29 GMT

In article  codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:

>: I'm not interested in innuendo or speaking in riddles.  Whether or
>: not a museum built in the 1990s has a model of a gas chamber, has
>: absolutely no bearing on what happened in Europe in the 1940s.
>: You insinuate that it does.  But I'm not interested in insinuation.

>If the number one Holocaust think tank in the world, this side of Yad 
>Vashem, doesn't know what a gas chamber looks like, who does?

I'm curious, Ross... how do you infer, from this apparent lack of
model (although such a model apparently does exist, from what I read
here), that the museum folks don't "..know what a gas chamber looks
like?"

I don't have a model of a Covette in my house, Ross, but I certainly
know what one looks like.

-- 
   /^\__/^\                 The Old Frog's Almanac 
  / @    @ \     A Salute to That Old Frog Himse'f, Ryugen Fisher
 (          )       Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada
  \  ~~~~  /               


Article 16828 of alt.revisionism:
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From: rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU  (Rich Green)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
Date: 2 Oct 1994 00:23:44 GMT
Organization: Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <36kuig$ci8@nntp.Stanford.EDU>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: d31rz2.stanford.edu
Originator: rjg@leland.Stanford.EDU

In article <369hdg$2l2@prime.mdata.fi>,
Kari Nenonen  wrote:
>
>You seem to swallow every bait the revisionists throw in the lake.
>I don't know why there is no representation of a gas chamber in the
>HMM (I have never been there) but I can imagine many explanations.
>First, it would take a lot of room. Second, it would only be a
>representation, so it would not prove anything. Third, it would only
>be an emty room with emty showerheads: nothing much to see. Fourth, if
>I would make a representation, I would want to make the whole set:
>dressingrooms, gas chambers and crematoriums - only that would serve
>the purpose (that is to show how it happened).
>

Actually, that's what they did; only it's in miniature.

Rich

-- 
___________________________________________________________________________
Richard James Green			Department of Chemistry
	rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU		Stanford University
	415-723-4332			Stanford, CA 94305-5080


Article 16829 of alt.revisionism:
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From: golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
Date: Sat, 01 Oct 1994 20:12:16 -0600
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In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
Vicksell) wrote:

> Jamie McCarthy (k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu) wrote:
> 
> : Ross, you are the regional director for an organization called the
> : Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust.
> 
> : Will you debate any topic of substance about the Holocaust, with me
> : or anyone else?
> 
> As I have have told you before, CODOH's primary mission is, as the name 
> implies, is the promotion of open debate on the Holocaust.  This does not 
> necessarily involve engaging in the debate.

I'm thinking of putting together a group called CODORVSMOLC, the Committee
for Open Debate On Ross Vicksell's Molestation Of Little Children.  I
don't actually want to engage in any such debate, I don't want to provide
any evidence that it happened or didn't happen.  I just want to get people
talking about it.  How does that sound to you, Ross?

> : I'm not interested in innuendo or speaking in riddles.  Whether or
> : not a museum built in the 1990s has a model of a gas chamber, has
> : absolutely no bearing on what happened in Europe in the 1940s.
> : You insinuate that it does.  But I'm not interested in insinuation.
> 
> If the number one Holocaust think tank in the world, this side of Yad 
> Vashem, doesn't know what a gas chamber looks like, who does?

What makes you think the Museum doesn't know what a gas chamber looks like?

Emailed to Mr. Vicksell.

-- 
D. J. Schaeffer |       The Todal looks like a blob of glup.
golux@mcs.com   |     It makes a sound like rabbits screaming,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^        and smells of old, unopened rooms.
                            -- Thurber, _The 13 Clocks_


Article 16830 of alt.revisionism:
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From: golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
Date: Sat, 01 Oct 1994 20:15:02 -0600
Organization: MCSNet Services
Lines: 27
Message-ID: 
References:    <366a8a$lc2@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>   
NNTP-Posting-Host: golux.pr.mcs.net


> : In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
> : Vicksell) wrote:
> 
> : > I can't help but be impressed by how authoritatively our worthy opponents
> : > can discuss the HMM, when none of them have ever been there.  The only one
> : > who has, to my knowledge, is Mike Stein, and he hasn't contributed to this
> : > thread yet. 
> : > 

[and I wrote]

> : I've been there.  What would you like me to say about it?
> 
> That they have a nice model of a gas chamber tucked away somewhere, 
> that Bradley Smith, Robert Faurisson and myself somehow missed, and that 
> Michael Berenbaum doesn't know about.

They do have a model.  What they don't have is a full-scale walk-through
replica.  Surely you didn't miss the scale model of the gas chamber,
crematorium and grounds?

-- 
D. J. Schaeffer |       The Todal looks like a blob of glup.
golux@mcs.com   |     It makes a sound like rabbits screaming,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^        and smells of old, unopened rooms.
                            -- Thurber, _The 13 Clocks_


Article 16831 of alt.revisionism:
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From: golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
Date: Sat, 01 Oct 1994 20:19:38 -0600
Organization: MCSNet Services
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References:   
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In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
Vicksell) wrote:

> The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device (golux@mcs.com) wrote:
> : In article , wmcguire@world.std.com
> : (Wayne McGuire) wrote:
> 
> : In fact, there is a small-scale model of an Auschwitz (I think) gas
> : chamber and crematorium.  It is done in white (or off-white) plaster or
> : plastic, I'm not sure which.  It depicts the environs around a gas
> : chamber, and takes up something like 5x8 feet.  One walks around it and
> : sees, at one point, a line of people waiting to descend into the anteroom
> : of the gas chamber.  There is no representation of people dying in the gas
> : chamber, so eager Nazis will have to use their imaginations.  When you
> : walk around the model, there is a corner behind the building in which
> : guards are shooting a prisoner.  There are small plaques describing the
> : sequence of murder.
> 
> But this is precisely the model Dr. Faurisson is talking about in the 
> original posting in this thread.  I know it's a long way back, but it's 
> worth going back and (re)reading.

I don't have the original posting, and I don't think my newsreader holds
things very long.  What did Faurisson say about this model?  That it
wasn't authentic?  That he couldn't walk through it?  That it didn't prove
anything?

Why don't you reprint it?

-- 
D. J. Schaeffer |       The Todal looks like a blob of glup.
golux@mcs.com   |     It makes a sound like rabbits screaming,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^        and smells of old, unopened rooms.
                            -- Thurber, _The 13 Clocks_


Article 16833 of alt.revisionism:
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From: golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
Date: Sat, 01 Oct 1994 20:28:30 -0600
Organization: MCSNet Services
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In article , wmcguire@world.std.com
(Wayne McGuire) wrote:

> In article <36k21u$mju@newsbf01.news.aol.com>, annya666@aol.com
(AnnyA666) wrote:
> 
> //BTW, I don't think that 'The Holocaust' is a debatable subject,
> //forensically speaking.  You can only debate a question, not whether or not
> //something happened.
> 
> This is wrong. What the Holocaust was precisely, how it happened,
> and why it happened, will always be wide open for debate, like
> any other historical topic.

But THAT it happened is not.  Just as THAT World War II, the Bataan Death
March, the moon landing, and any other historical event happened is not
open to "debate."

> There have been at least three reputable and legitimate
> revisionist studies that have appeared on the Holocaust in the
> last decade or two:
> 
> 1) Paul Johnson's Modern Times
> 
> 2) Tom Segev's The Seventh Million
> 
> 3) Arno Mayer's Why Did the Heavens Not Darken?

In what ways are these "revisionist studies" of the Holocaust?

> In fact, these are the three works that currently I would most
> recommend on the Holocaust, in exactly that order.

Yes, you have often expressed your admiration for these titles.  Why? 
What is it about them -- as compared with all the other histories of the
Holocaust that you must have read -- that makes them stand out so?

> I would be curious to see what three leading books on the
> Holocaust all the other participants here would recommend.
> What three books would you recommend?

Well, I'm only a little way into Leni Yahil's The Holocaust: The Fate of
European Jewry.  Unfortunately, I have been unable to get far into it as
of yet.

> Paul Johnson's Modern Times is not primarily about the Holocaust.
> But he places Nazism and Fascism in the context of a violent
> messianic movement--Marxism--which bears a good deal of the
> responsibility for creating a world in which political mass
> murder could occur on the scale of the Holocaust and greater. The
> messianic right imitated many of the methods of the messianic
> left, and the messianic left worked hard to undermine and destroy
> the civil order which was a barrier to the rise of demagogues
> like Hitler. Johnson discusses all of this eloquently.

Perhaps.  But in what way was the Holocaust "political mass murder"?  It
was motivated by the Nazi's bogus biological/racial theory, not by the
Nazis' bogus political theory.

I find it interesting that you feel so certain that Johnson's theory is
correct -- that Marxism's crimes led to the rise of Nazism -- and then
elsewhere link Marxism to Judaism (or at least to Jews).  One could think
you were working on fixing the blame for the rise of Nazism on the Jews. 
Is this your ultimate point?  If so, say it.

And then answer my question from another thread: Why do so many
"revisionists" and Nazi apologists seek to place the blame for the crimes
of Nazi Germany on the Jews?

-- 
D. J. Schaeffer |       The Todal looks like a blob of glup.
golux@mcs.com   |     It makes a sound like rabbits screaming,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^        and smells of old, unopened rooms.
                            -- Thurber, _The 13 Clocks_


Article 16841 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Is the Holocaust a Religion?
Date: 1 Oct 1994 23:09:02 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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References: 
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In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
Vicksell) writes:

re the Holocaust being a "religion:"  perhaps for some it is.  Example:
here in this newsgroup McCarthy has referred to Robert Faurisson as
"evil."  Barry Shein has written that I am "evil."  

By and large, Faurisson and I are "evil" because we express doubt about
the "truth" of some of the "teachings" on the "Holocaust." When we  laugh
at some of those teachings, it sounds like blasphemy to those who are true
believers. 

"Evil" is a word true believers employ for those who disagree about
matters of interest to the religion or cult to which the true believer
belongs. 

There's something there worth talking about. 


-- Bradley Smith


Article 16843 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:  
Date: Sun, 2 Oct 1994 03:07:57 GMT
Lines: 26

Jamie McCarthy (k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu) wrote:
: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote:

: > Jamie McCarthy (k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu) wrote:
: > 
: > : I'm not interested in innuendo or speaking in riddles.  Whether or
: > : not a museum built in the 1990s has a model of a gas chamber, has
: > : absolutely no bearing on what happened in Europe in the 1940s.
: > : You insinuate that it does.  But I'm not interested in insinuation.
: > 
: > If the number one Holocaust think tank in the world, this side of Yad 
: > Vashem, doesn't know what a gas chamber looks like, who does?

: Now you're insinuating that, because they didn't put up a full-size
: replica of a gas chamber for people to walk through, they don't know
: what the real gas chambers looked like.

: I'm not interested in insinuation.

This "full-size" stuff is purely your concoction.  We're just looking for 
a credible model.

: -- 
:  Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
:  "...just consider alt.revisionism a suburb of talk.bizarre
:   and everything starts falling into place."  - Steve Miller


Article 16847 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: More whore houses
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
Date: Sun, 2 Oct 1994 04:41:33 GMT
Lines: 13

During the summer of 1943, Himmler ordered the setting up of brothels in 
concentration camps called Sonderbau (special building).  His aim 
was to solve the sexual problem, combat homosexual practices, and 
increase the worker's output ... In mid-December there were thirteen of 
these women in Dachau."

             from

    Dachau: 1933-45, The Official History, by Paul Berben, page 7

     
     Ross Vicksell       



Article 16848 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <366hls$qli@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> 
Date: Sun, 2 Oct 1994 04:55:32 GMT
Lines: 67

Jamie McCarthy (k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu) wrote:
: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) wrote:

: > Could you just give me a feel for the reputation of the
: > publisher?

: I can't help you here.  I think the Beate Klarsfeld foundation

FYI, Beate Klarsfeld is the self-hating German who was responsible for the
destruction of Fred Leuchter's business.  She was right there in the
courtroom in Malden, leading the charge. 

: must be pretty small, because I haven't heard of it except as
: the publisher of Pressac's most important work.  I could be
: wrong.

: > Have any major publishers or works cited the Pressac book as
: > authoritative during the five years since it was originally
: > published?

: Um, _Auschwitz: Technique and Operation_ is considered by many
: to be _the_ best factual refutation of revisionist claims about
: Auschwitz.  It was the first large collection of facts and
: evidence that was intended to "prove" the gas chambers.  And
: it's hard for me to judge because I haven't ever seen a copy of
: the book (grumble stupid libraries grumble) -- but the feeling
: seems to be that, in the few years since it's been published,
: it has been and still is the definitive refutation.

: It's often attacked by revisionists, but never very successfully,
: if such "negative reputation" means anything.

: Pressac was mentored by Faurisson for a while;  Pressac actually
: believed for quite a while that the gas chambers were a hoax.
: But everything he kept reading proved otherwise to him, and he
: changed his mind.  Not one of Faurisson's big successes.


: I wanted to comment on something else you wrote, Wayne, that
: isn't worth a whole article but needs pointing out:

: > There have been at least three reputable and legitimate
: > revisionist studies that have appeared on the Holocaust in the
: > last decade or two:
: > 
: > 3) Arno Mayer's Why Did the Heavens Not Darken?

: The people usually referred to in this forum as "revisionists,"
: Holocaust-deniers, often claim Mayer as one of their own.  This
: is mostly because Mayer makes some questionable claims in the
: book you cite.  One such is that more people died at Auschwitz
: of starvation, overwork, and disease, than by direct and outright
: murder.  I don't know of any other historians that would agree
: with that, and Mayer doesn't give figures to back that claim up.
: He does agree that over a million people died at Auschwitz,
: the vast majority Jews.

: Anyway -- Mayer is a legitimate revisionist historian, a scholar.
: He is thus distinguished from Holocaust-deniers, who call
: themselves "revisionist scholars," but who dabble in innuendo,
: ignorance, trickery, and outright lies.

: Just wanted to make that absolutely clear.
: -- 
:  Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
:  "...just consider alt.revisionism a suburb of talk.bizarre
:   and everything starts falling into place."  - Steve Miller


Article 16851 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
Date: 2 Oct 1994 06:42:47 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <36lkp7$4r8@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References: <366hls$qli@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>  
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

Ross Vicksell  wrote:

# FYI, Beate Klarsfeld is the self-hating German 

Good old Vicksell, always good for a laugh. "Self-hating German"?

# who was responsible for the
# destruction of Fred Leuchter's business.  She was right there in the
# courtroom in Malden, leading the charge. 

What's so bad about exposing a charlatan and a liar for what he is?


-Danny Keren.


Article 16852 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More whore houses
Date: 2 Oct 1994 06:51:49 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <36lla5$54a@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

Ross Vicksell  wrote:

# During the summer of 1943, Himmler ordered the setting up of brothels in 
# concentration camps called Sonderbau (special building).  His aim 
# was to solve the sexual problem, combat homosexual practices, and 
# increase the worker's output ... In mid-December there were thirteen of 
# these women in Dachau."

What does this exactly prove? It is interesting, BTW, to see the
following speech from Himmler.

I take it that Vicksell agrees that everything else about the
official history of Dachau is correct? The medical experiments,
for instance?

Extract from Himmler's address to party comrades, September 7 1940
[Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals - 
Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., Vol. IV, p. 1140]
------------------------------------------------------------------
If any Pole has any sexual dealing with a German woman, and by this
I mean sexual intercourse, then the man will be hanged right in
front of his camp. Then the others will not do it. Besides,
provisions will be made that a sufficient number of Polish women
and girls will come along as well so that a necessity of this
kind is out of the question.

The women will be brought before the courts without mercy, and
where the facts are not sufficiently proved - such borderline
cases always happen - they will be sent to a concentration camp.
This we must do, unless these one million Poles and those
hundreds of thousands of workers of alien blood are to inflict
untold damage on the German blood. Philosophizing is of no avail
in this case. It would be better if we did not have them at all -
we all know that - but we need them.




-Danny Keren.


Article 16857 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access3.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
Date: 2 Oct 1994 03:27:56 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <36lnds$bl8@access3.digex.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: access3.digex.net

In article ,
Jamie McCarthy  wrote:
>So, if that room is a morgue:
>
>[several questions omitted]

    You forgot two other pertinent questions (though I'm sure the 
revisionists consider them impertinent):

* Why does a morgue have a gas-tight door with a metal grille protecting 
  the peephole from the inside of the room?

    (Because the dead bodies in the "morgue" weren't dead when they
     entered the room, and might break out the peephole once they figure
     out the fate in store for them.)

* Why did Bischoff, the head of the Auschwitz Construction Administration, 
  refer to it as a "Vergasungskeller" (gassing cellar) rather than a 
  "Leichenkeller" (corpse cellar, or morgue) in a letter to Gen. Kammler?

    (Because Kammler was in on the secret, and there was no need to conceal
     the truth from him.)
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 16859 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access3.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More whore houses
Date: 2 Oct 1994 03:32:08 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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References: 
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In article ,
Ross Vicksell  wrote:
>During the summer of 1943, Himmler ordered the setting up of brothels in 
>concentration camps called Sonderbau (special building)....
>             from
>
>    Dachau: 1933-45, The Official History, by Paul Berben, page 7

    I think I'm going to faint.  Ross actually provided a reference with 
a page number.  I shall definitely check it out.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 16862 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Vicksell's Lies and Misinformation (was: Re: Ike and the "Death C
Date: 2 Oct 1994 08:05:35 GMT
Organization: Brown University
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References: 
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Keywords: Eisenhower

Vicksell is trying to portray the concentration camps inside the
"Old Reich" (Germany proper and Austria) as real fun places,
where the SS took good care of the prisoners, gave them good
food, supplied them with whores etc.

Some time ago, the "revisionists" themselves posted a letter from
Dr. Martin Broszat, from the "Institute for Contemporary History"
in Munich, published in a German newspaper. According to Dr.
Broszat, official SS statistics shows that 111,000 people died in
the "Old Reich" camps in *one year* (between July 1942 and June 1943)!! 

It is important to note that these camps were not mass extermination
camps like Auschwitz and Treblinka, but what are commonly called
"concentration camps". There was no mass gassing in them, and some
of them didn't even have gas chambers. Nontheless, the SS managed
to kill 111,000 people in these camps during a single year.

Something to think about.


-Danny Keren.


Article 16865 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access3.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Autopsies on ashes
Date: 2 Oct 1994 04:18:25 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 16
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References:  <7HIZk0yNUASC069yn@world.std.com>  
NNTP-Posting-Host: access3.digex.net

In article ,
Wayne McGuire  wrote:
>So then no autopsies were performed? Is this the case?

    The victims were cremated.  How does one perform an autopsy on ashes?


>How long would it take for the evidence of gassing to disappear
>from the victims? Days? Weeks? Months?

    Wrong question.  How long does it take for the victim to disapper up 
the chimney?  Answer: about an hour.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 16871 of alt.revisionism:
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From: annya666@aol.com (AnnyA666)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
Date: 2 Oct 1994 11:14:02 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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References: 
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In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
Vicksell) writes:
 
: > If the number one Holocaust think tank in the world, this side of Yad 
: > Vashem, doesn't know what a gas chamber looks like, who does?

To which Mr. Mccarthy responded:
: Now you're insinuating that, because they didn't put up a full-size
: replica of a gas chamber for people to walk through, they don't know
: what the real gas chambers looked like.

To which you responded:
>>This "full-size" stuff is purely your concoction.  We're just looking
for 
>>a credible model.

When you say you want to see a 'credible model' perhaps you should specify
which gas chamber you want a model of.  At Aushwitz alone there was a lot
of variety. There were the complex of Kremas at Birkenau, the small
original chamber at Auschwitz I and the houses remodeled to serve as
backup utility homicide centers.  Then you've got the small chambers at
Maidenek, the little one at Stutthoff and of course the CO2 facitlites,
both portable and permanent. 

I'm not sure what use you'd have for a model, though--anyone can make a
model.  So what?


Article 16872 of alt.revisionism:
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From: annya666@aol.com (AnnyA666)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
Date: 2 Oct 1994 11:20:05 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 15
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References: 
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In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
Vicksell) writes:

>FYI, Beate Klarsfeld is the self-hating German who was responsible for
the
>destruction of Fred Leuchter's business.  She was right there in the
>courtroom in Malden, leading the charge. 

"Self-hating German" seems a bit mean-spirited, don't you think.  She's a
woman who recognized that what the Nazis did was deplorable.  Do you
expect her to go around singing "Deutschland Uber Alles?  

RE: Mr. Leuchter, I think you give her too much credit. Mr. Luechter had a
hand in destroying his own business when he hung out a shingle without
legal qualifications.  Besides, I hear he isn't too badly these days. 


Article 16885 of alt.revisionism:
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From: landpost@clark.net
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Autopsies on ashes
Date: 2 Oct 1994 18:40:27 GMT
Organization: Clark Internet Services, Inc.
Lines: 31
Message-ID: 
References:  <7HIZk0yNUASC069yn@world.std.com>   <36lqch$cm0@access3.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: landpost_ppp.clark.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

In article <36lqch$cm0@access3.digex.net>, mstein@access3.digex.net
(Michael P. Stein) wrote:

> In article ,
> Wayne McGuire  wrote:
> >So then no autopsies were performed? Is this the case?
> 
>     The victims were cremated.  How does one perform an autopsy on ashes?
> 
> 
> >How long would it take for the evidence of gassing to disappear
> >from the victims? Days? Weeks? Months?
> 
>     Wrong question.  How long does it take for the victim to disapper up 
> the chimney?  Answer: about an hour.
> -- 
> Mike Stein                      The above represents the Absolute Truth.
> POB 10420                       Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
> Arlington, VA  22210            position of my employer.

-------------------------

Where are the millions of pounds of "holy" remains", you pimply-faced,
atrophied, weasel ???????????????

You mean no excavations have been done around Auschwitz, how convenient. 



Tim McCarthy
landpost@clark.net


Article 16888 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:  <36minq$and@newsbf01.news.aol.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Oct 1994 18:35:21 GMT
Lines: 29

AnnyA666 (annya666@aol.com) wrote:
: In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
: Vicksell) writes:
:  
: : > If the number one Holocaust think tank in the world, this side of Yad 
: : > Vashem, doesn't know what a gas chamber looks like, who does?

: To which Mr. Mccarthy responded:
: : Now you're insinuating that, because they didn't put up a full-size
: : replica of a gas chamber for people to walk through, they don't know
: : what the real gas chambers looked like.

: To which you responded:
: >>This "full-size" stuff is purely your concoction.  We're just looking
: for 
: >>a credible model.

: When you say you want to see a 'credible model' perhaps you should specify
: which gas chamber you want a model of.  At Aushwitz alone there was a lot
: of variety. There were the complex of Kremas at Birkenau, the small
: original chamber at Auschwitz I and the houses remodeled to serve as
: backup utility homicide centers.  Then you've got the small chambers at
: Maidenek, the little one at Stutthoff and of course the CO2 facitlites,
: both portable and permanent. 

: I'm not sure what use you'd have for a model, though--anyone can make a
: model.  So what?

The ket word is "credible."


Article 16892 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news.moneng.mei.com!uwm.edu!news.doit.wisc.edu!decwrl!netcomsv!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:  <36mj35$aqc@newsbf01.news.aol.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Oct 1994 18:48:53 GMT
Lines: 30

AnnyA666 (annya666@aol.com) wrote:
: In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
: Vicksell) writes:

: >FYI, Beate Klarsfeld is the self-hating German who was responsible for
: the
: >destruction of Fred Leuchter's business.  She was right there in the
: >courtroom in Malden, leading the charge. 

: "Self-hating German" seems a bit mean-spirited, don't you think.  She's a
: woman who recognized that what the Nazis did was deplorable.  Do you
: expect her to go around singing "Deutschland Uber Alles?  

: RE: Mr. Leuchter, I think you give her too much credit. Mr. Luechter had a
: hand in destroying his own business when he hung out a shingle without
: legal qualifications.  

Fred never attempted to hide the fact that he had no engineering degree or
license.  In fact it came up repeatedly in court hearings.  Nevertheless,
for ten years, the prisons that did business with him were perfectly
satisfied with the execution equipment he sold to them and maintained for
them.  Then came his trip to Poland and everything went sour. Coincidence,
no doubt. 


: Besides, I hear he isn't too badly these days. 

Where did you hear that?

           Ross Vicksell


Article 16893 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Is the Holocaust a Religion?
In-Reply-To: bradleyrs@aol.com's message of 1 Oct 1994 23:09:02 -0400
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  <36l88e$2h8@newsbf01.news.aol.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Oct 1994 19:29:17 GMT
Lines: 24


From: bradleyrs@aol.com (BradleyRS)
>By and large, Faurisson and I are "evil" because we express doubt about
>the "truth" of some of the "teachings" on the "Holocaust."

Oh bullshit.

You're "evil" because your intention are evil.

You willfully ignore crushing evidence and speak not like someone
interested in the truth but rather someone who's trying to hoodwink
and deceive people.

It's so damn obvious, I don't know why you think you have anyone
fooled other than you must also possess the mind of a child.

Adults don't fall for this transparent crap, Smith. You're not even
very good at it.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 16894 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
In-Reply-To: annya666@aol.com's message of 2 Oct 1994 11:14:02 -0400
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  <36minq$and@newsbf01.news.aol.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Oct 1994 19:36:18 GMT
Lines: 37


From: annya666@aol.com (AnnyA666) [responding to Bradley Smith]
>>This "full-size" stuff is purely your concoction.  We're just looking
for 
>>a credible model.

>I'm not sure what use you'd have for a model, though--anyone can make a
>model.  So what?


That's the point, he's being wholly disingenuous. His mind wouldn't be
changed one bit by a model.

He just thinks it sounds good for the moment until he can think of
something else to say. He's temporizing.

Since the evidence completely refutes everything he believes there's
not much left but to nip at the heels of crazy and unrelated crap like
why isn't there a model of a gas chamber at the holocaust museum built
to his personal satisfaction or whether or not a bucket can dance the
samba or did Curtis Whiteway tell the truth (as if there aren't a
zillion other completely reliable sources, but he doesn't want to deal
with those, he wants to harp on the few he believes cannot be quite
proven as genuine, tho he hasn't disproven them either.)

This has nothing to do with the truth, it has to do with Smith
thinking he's being clever.

As I've said before, transparent crap.

And then he moans no one takes him seriously.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 16895 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!agate!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Autopsies on ashes
Date: 2 Oct 1994 19:34:27 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <36n203$t8g@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References:   <36lqch$cm0@access3.digex.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

 wrote:

[To Mike Stein]

# Where are the millions of pounds of "holy" remains", you pimply-faced,
# atrophied, weasel ???????????????

Oh really, "landpost". We already know you're a "revisionist
scholar". You don't have to keep proving this to us.

# You mean no excavations have been done around Auschwitz, how 
# convenient. 

I understand that the Poles discovered large quantities of ash and
human remains in Treblinka. In Auschwitz, According to Reitlinger's 
"The Final Solution" (1968 edition, p. 161), the ash was dumped into 
the Sola river. 

Also, when one does the calculation, it turns out that ashes - even
from a huge number of corpses - take up a surprisingly small
volume. To be more exact, we'll have to know the weight of a given
volume of ash (I apologize for going into these gory details). 


-Danny Keren.



Article 16899 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access3.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What is physical evidence of a gas chamber, then?
Date: 2 Oct 1994 15:31:40 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <36n1qs$mo8@access3.digex.net>
References:   <369f9k$gv0@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access3.digex.net

In article ,
Ross Vicksell  wrote:
>There are cyanide traces in all sorts of Auschwitz buildings that weren't 
>gas chambers.  They used the stuff for fumigation of buildings, not just 
>fumigation of clothes.

    You have previously complained there is no physical evidence of a gas
chamber.  If a room with a gas-tight door, an air extraction system,
"introduction devices," and cyanide traces, referred to in an official
letter as a "Vergasungskeller" by the person in charge of building it, is
still not physical evidence of a gas chamber, please tell me what could
POSSIBLY be such "physical evience?" 

    A body dead of cyanide poisoning?  I could point out that's not
physical evidence of a gas chamber either - after all, the poor
unfortunate might just have found a Zyklon can sitting around, opened it
and died, right?  So even an autopsy report showing death by cyanide
doesn't prove that the person inhaled the cyanide in a "gas chamber."

    Ross, please tell me what you would accept as physical evidence of a
gas chamber.  Your complaint about the lack of such indicates that you
think such evidence is theoretically possible, yet you have rejected
everything that has been introduced so far. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 16900 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access3.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Self-hating people
Date: 2 Oct 1994 15:38:57 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <36n28h$mvf@access3.digex.net>
References: <366hls$qli@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>  
NNTP-Posting-Host: access3.digex.net

In article ,
Ross Vicksell  wrote:
>FYI, Beate Klarsfeld is the self-hating German

    Ross, did you get your psychology degree from the same place Bradley 
Smith got his?  Please provide your evidence that Beate Klarsfeld is 
"self-hating."

    Elsewhere you posted information about a talk by Victor Ostrovsky 
about a supposed plot by the Mossad to murder George Bush.  Leaving aside 
for the moment the question of what that has to do with whether or not 
there was a Nazi plan to exterminate Jews, would you similarly 
characterize Ostrovsky as a "self-hating Jew?"  Why or why not?

    Also, I would point out that Ostrovsky is merely testimony.  Do you
believe that there is now sufficient proof of a Mossad plot to assassinate
Bush?  If so, what documents or physical evidence did Ostrovsky show you
to prove to you beyond a reasonable doubt that there was such a plot?

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 16901 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access3.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Goeth's arrest
Date: 2 Oct 1994 15:49:29 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <36n2s9$n6m@access3.digex.net>
References:  <36de93$gs4@access4.digex.net>  
NNTP-Posting-Host: access3.digex.net

In article ,
Jamie McCarthy  wrote:
>codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote:
>>mstein@access.digex.net (Mike Stein) wrote:
>
>> :     What bizarre delusions these revisionists have about their 
>> : influence.  Spielberg gave only an indirect mention of the gas chambers.  
>> : I have no idea if Spielberg even knows that revisionists exist.
>> : The movie certainly has nothing to do with attempting to prove the 
>> : existence of gas chambers. 
>> 
>> What does?
>
>Well, for starters, things discussed every day here on alt.revisionism.
>
>Himmler's Poznan speech, to name the example that I'm trying to get
>everyone to talk about.

    Um, no - Himmler's Poznan speech really only shows a plan or policy 
to exterminate the Jews.  Raven's right in that it doesn't mention gas 
chambers as a specific means to carry out that policy.

    As far as something which *does*, try Pressac, Jean-Claude: 
"Auschwitz: Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers."  You might in
particular check out the photographically-reproduced letter from Bischoff
to Kammler which mentions the "Vergasungskeller."  As Bradley Smith might
have said, I can easily see how he got that word confused with
"Leichenkeller," since the two words sound so much alike. 
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 16902 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!news.kei.com!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: More whore houses
In-Reply-To: codfish@netcom.com's message of Sun, 2 Oct 1994 04:41:33 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: 
Date: Sun, 2 Oct 1994 19:58:09 GMT
Lines: 42


From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
>During the summer of 1943, Himmler ordered the setting up of brothels in 
>concentration camps called Sonderbau (special building).  His aim 
>was to solve the sexual problem, combat homosexual practices, and 
>increase the worker's output ... In mid-December there were thirteen of 
>these women in Dachau."
>
>             from
>
>    Dachau: 1933-45, The Official History, by Paul Berben, page 7


Well, here you have an interesting claim from a holocaust-denier.

So how does that gibe with, for example, Mr Doubting Thomas'
insistence that the Nazi Army was run in a idyllically professional
manner?

How many other professional armies have erected brothels? Tolerated
them no doubt, but *erected* them?

Even if the claim were true this is certainly a two-edged sword that
speaks volumes on what sick and twisted creeps these Nazis were.

The term *brothel* implies the women were paid for what they did.

How come I get the feeling this wasn't the case, anyone want to claim
otherwise?

Swell, they couldn't just kill and starve the prisoners, they forced
the women into sexual slavery also. Anything else Mr Vicksell would
like to say in the Nazis' defense?

What a swell bunch of guys, real men...tatooing little children,
forcing women into sexual slavery, real heros...

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 16906 of alt.revisionism:
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From: declan@delphi.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ike and the "Death Camps."
Date: Sun, 2 Oct 94 16:37:25 -0500
Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice)
Lines: 5
Message-ID: 
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1e.delphi.com
X-To: Ross Vicksell 

	For interesting comments of the thousands upon thousands of Jewish
refugees in Germany in 1945, take a look at the Patton Diaries.
 
 
LTM


Article 16925 of alt.revisionism:
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From: annya666@aol.com (AnnyA666)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
Date: 2 Oct 1994 19:05:09 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 16
Sender: news@newsbf01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <36neb5$hbp@newsbf01.news.aol.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf01.news.aol.com

In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
Vicksell) writes in response to:

::  ...We're just looking  for a credible model.

My response:
: I'm not sure what use you'd have for a model, though--anyone can make a
: model.  So what?

Mr. Codfish:
>>The ket word is "credible."

I appreciate your brevity, Mr. Codfish, but you left a great deal unsaid. 
Evaluating credibility is based on defined criteria.  What are yours?  And
once again I'll ask, what use would you have for a 'credible model'--just
to prove it can be done? Or so you can dispute the credibility?


Article 16926 of alt.revisionism:
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From: annya666@aol.com (AnnyA666)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
Date: 2 Oct 1994 19:14:01 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 33
Sender: news@newsbf01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <36nerp$hf8@newsbf01.news.aol.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf01.news.aol.com

In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
Vicksell) writes respondng to this thread::

AnnyA666 (annya666@aol.com) wrote:
: RE: Mr. Leuchter, I think you give her too much credit. Mr. Luechter had
a
: hand in destroying his own business when he hung out a shingle without
: legal qualifications.  

Mr. Codfish responded:
>>Fred never attempted to hide the fact that he had no engineering degree
or
>>license.  In fact it came up repeatedly in court hearings. 
Nevertheless,
>>for ten years, the prisons that did business with him were perfectly
>>satisfied with the execution equipment he sold to them and maintained
for
>>them.  Then came his trip to Poland and everything went sour.
Coincidence,
>>no doubt. 

My understanding is that Fred didn't do all that much business with
prisons, all in all.  After all, he exaggerated his experience in the
Zundel trial and was pretty evenly humiliated when it was discovered that
he had not done business with all those he listed as clients.  

Are you implying that he notified his prospective clients that he was not
actually an engineer before providing service?  I find that hard to
believe. 
The field of execution specialist may be extremely specialized, but I
doubt the prison systems would have to dig that deep into the bottom of
the barrel...



Article 16930 of alt.revisionism:
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From: kauhunen@mits.mdata.fi (Kari Nenonen)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Autopsies on ashes
Date: 3 Oct 1994 01:48:47 GMT
Organization: Mits BBS, Helsinki, Finland (40+ Nodes +358-0-4582066)
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <36nntv$bnd@prime.mdata.fi>
References:  <36lqch$cm0@access3.digex.net>  <36n203$t8g@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mits.mdata.fi

In article <36n203$t8g@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>,
Danny Keren  wrote:

>I understand that the Poles discovered large quantities of ash and
>human remains in Treblinka. In Auschwitz, According to Reitlinger's 
>"The Final Solution" (1968 edition, p. 161), the ash was dumped into 
>the Sola river. 

Yes. And in Birkenau they dumped the ashes from KremaIV and Krema V
to a pond that was situated in front of (on the southern side) Krema
IV.



-- 
Kari Nenonen                    kauhunen@mits.mdata.fi
Maavallintie 4
00430 Helsinki
Finland


Article 16937 of alt.revisionism:
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From: golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ike and the "Death Camps."
Date: Sun, 02 Oct 1994 22:48:59 -0600
Organization: MCSNet Services
Lines: 21
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References:  <7HIZk0yNUASC069yn@world.std.com>  
NNTP-Posting-Host: golux.pr.mcs.net

In article , wmcguire@world.std.com
(Wayne McGuire) wrote:

> In article ,
> k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
> 
> //              The military of course wouldn't have let them in,
> //so they should have tunneled under the fence, found a few corpses that
> //the G.I.s hadn't yet gotten around to giving a decent burial, and begun
> //conducting autopsies, complete with chemical analysis of hemoglobin, to
> //determine that the agent of death really was hydrocyanic acid.
> 
> So then no autopsies were performed? Is this the case?

Wayne, how do you perform an autopsy on a cremated corpse?

-- 
D. J. Schaeffer |       The Todal looks like a blob of glup.
golux@mcs.com   |     It makes a sound like rabbits screaming,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^        and smells of old, unopened rooms.
                            -- Thurber, _The 13 Clocks_


Article 16939 of alt.revisionism:
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From: golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Marxist Holocaust Denial
Date: Sun, 02 Oct 1994 23:17:38 -0600
Organization: MCSNet Services
Lines: 62
Message-ID: 
References:   
NNTP-Posting-Host: golux.pr.mcs.net

In article , wmcguire@world.std.com
(Wayne McGuire) wrote:

> In article ,
> flax@Krille.update.uu.se (Jonas Flygare) wrote:
> 
> //   And would this apply any less to the Marxists who murdered over
> //   100 million innocent civilians in this century?
> //   Marxists--especially the dictatorship of the Marxist
> //   intelligentsia--felt hatred and contempt for anybody who was not
> //   one of them. And this attitude was eminently evident in the
> //   founder of Marxism himself--Karl Marx. He was a truly nasty
> //   specimen.
> //
> //[Ahhh, I should have guessed, back to your pet peeve.. When you are
> //faced with a statement that you can not counter easily, you turn to
> //the good ole marxist hatred of yours..
> 
> Hey, everybody, check this out!
> 
> If you object to the murder of 100 million innocent civilians by
> Marxists in this century, and the total ruination of many
> nations--economically, socially, and culturally--for decades,
> you've got a "pet peeve" and are indulging in "hatred" of
> Marxism.

You STILL don't get it, do you?

If you object to the murders of 100 million by Marxists, good for you.  If
you do it in a forum dedicated to Holocaust denial (or even just plain
historical revisionism), you aren't likely to get too many accolades,
because it just isn't relevant to the topic at hand.  If you insist on
turning back to the murder of 100 million Marxist murders when engaged in
discussions about the tactics of Holocaust deniers, you will continue to
be viewed as evasive.

> When six million Jews are murdered by the Nazis, this is a
> serious matter.

Yes.  As is the murder of 100 million by Marxists.  And as soon as
somebody uses misrepresentation, distortion, lies and bigotry to deny that
those murders ever happened, then it will be a fruitful topic of
discussion here.  Until then, it is at best irrelevant.  At worst, it is
an intentional attempt to distract and hence, a tactic worthy of a
Holocaust denier.

> When 100 million people are murdered by Marxists, complaining
> about this fact is a "pet peeve" and a manifestation of "Marxist
> hatred."

See above.  You are demanding that we address apples in a discussion about
oranges.

The remainder of your posting is, again, not relevant to this forum.  You
are welcome to rant at length about it, of course, but don't expect
everything to be addressed the way you think it ought to be.

-- 
D. J. Schaeffer |       The Todal looks like a blob of glup.
golux@mcs.com   |     It makes a sound like rabbits screaming,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^        and smells of old, unopened rooms.
                            -- Thurber, _The 13 Clocks_


Article 16940 of alt.revisionism:
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From: golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
Date: Sun, 02 Oct 1994 23:25:59 -0600
Organization: MCSNet Services
Lines: 25
Message-ID: 
References:   
NNTP-Posting-Host: golux.pr.mcs.net

In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
Vicksell) wrote:

> Jamie McCarthy (k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu) wrote:
> : codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote:

> : Now you're insinuating that, because they didn't put up a full-size
> : replica of a gas chamber for people to walk through, they don't know
> : what the real gas chambers looked like.
> 
> : I'm not interested in insinuation.
> 
> This "full-size" stuff is purely your concoction.  We're just looking for 
> a credible model.

But your entire position that the model that exists is not "credible," is
what?  Faurisson?  He says "stupid ARTISTIC" and that's enough for you? 
What is his source for his assertions that the model is wrong?  Why is
that source credible while the Museum's source is not?

-- 
D. J. Schaeffer |       The Todal looks like a blob of glup.
golux@mcs.com   |     It makes a sound like rabbits screaming,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^        and smells of old, unopened rooms.
                            -- Thurber, _The 13 Clocks_


Article 16952 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!usc!sdd.hp.com!decwrl!decwrl!netcomsv!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish
From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Self-hating people
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <366hls$qli@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>   <36n28h$mvf@access3.digex.net>
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 04:41:03 GMT
Lines: 31

Michael P. Stein (mstein@access3.digex.net) wrote:
: In article ,
: Ross Vicksell  wrote:
: >FYI, Beate Klarsfeld is the self-hating German

:     Ross, did you get your psychology degree from the same place Bradley 
: Smith got his?  Please provide your evidence that Beate Klarsfeld is 
: "self-hating."

I'll do this one tomorrow, so y'all will have something to look forward to.

:     Elsewhere you posted information about a talk by Victor Ostrovsky 

Sorry Mike, you got the wrong guy.

: about a supposed plot by the Mossad to murder George Bush.  Leaving aside 
: for the moment the question of what that has to do with whether or not 
: there was a Nazi plan to exterminate Jews, would you similarly 
: characterize Ostrovsky as a "self-hating Jew?"  Why or why not?

:     Also, I would point out that Ostrovsky is merely testimony.  Do you
: believe that there is now sufficient proof of a Mossad plot to assassinate
: Bush?  If so, what documents or physical evidence did Ostrovsky show you
: to prove to you beyond a reasonable doubt that there was such a plot?

: -- 
: Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
: POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
: Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.

             Ross Vicksell


Article 16953 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: More whore houses
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:  
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 04:54:31 GMT
Lines: 55

Barry Shein (bzs@world.std.com) wrote:

: From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
: >During the summer of 1943, Himmler ordered the setting up of brothels in 
: >concentration camps called Sonderbau (special building).  His aim 
: >was to solve the sexual problem, combat homosexual practices, and 
: >increase the worker's output ... In mid-December there were thirteen of 
: >these women in Dachau."
: >
: >             from
: >
: >    Dachau: 1933-45, The Official History, by Paul Berben, page 7


: Well, here you have an interesting claim from a holocaust-denier.

: So how does that gibe with, for example, Mr Doubting Thomas'
: insistence that the Nazi Army was run in a idyllically professional
: manner?

: How many other professional armies have erected brothels? Tolerated

The Japanese in WWII.  Remember the Korean women the Japanese took with
them to Southeast Asia for use by their officers. 

: them no doubt, but *erected* them?

: Even if the claim were true this is certainly a two-edged sword that
: speaks volumes on what sick and twisted creeps these Nazis were.


What's wrong with the reasons stated by Himmler?

: The term *brothel* implies the women were paid for what they did.

: How come I get the feeling this wasn't the case, anyone want to claim
: otherwise?

I presume they were paid in camp scrip.

: Swell, they couldn't just kill and starve the prisoners, they forced
: the women into sexual slavery also. Anything else Mr Vicksell would
: like to say in the Nazis' defense?

: What a swell bunch of guys, real men...tatooing little children,
: forcing women into sexual slavery, real heros...

For all I know, they were volunteers.


: -- 
:         -Barry Shein

: Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
: Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 16954 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: More whore houses
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:  <36lla5$54a@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 04:58:28 GMT
Lines: 44

Danny Keren (dzk@cs.brown.edu) wrote:
: Ross Vicksell  wrote:

: # During the summer of 1943, Himmler ordered the setting up of brothels in 
: # concentration camps called Sonderbau (special building).  His aim 
: # was to solve the sexual problem, combat homosexual practices, and 
: # increase the worker's output ... In mid-December there were thirteen of 
: # these women in Dachau."

: What does this exactly prove? It is interesting, BTW, to see the
: following speech from Himmler.


It tends to lend credence to the contention that the patrons of the 
Auschwitz cat house were prisoners rather than SS men.

: I take it that Vicksell agrees that everything else about the
: official history of Dachau is correct? The medical experiments,
: for instance?

: Extract from Himmler's address to party comrades, September 7 1940
: [Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals - 
: Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., Vol. IV, p. 1140]
: ------------------------------------------------------------------
: If any Pole has any sexual dealing with a German woman, and by this
: I mean sexual intercourse, then the man will be hanged right in
: front of his camp. Then the others will not do it. Besides,
: provisions will be made that a sufficient number of Polish women
: and girls will come along as well so that a necessity of this
: kind is out of the question.

: The women will be brought before the courts without mercy, and
: where the facts are not sufficiently proved - such borderline
: cases always happen - they will be sent to a concentration camp.
: This we must do, unless these one million Poles and those
: hundreds of thousands of workers of alien blood are to inflict
: untold damage on the German blood. Philosophizing is of no avail
: in this case. It would be better if we did not have them at all -
: we all know that - but we need them.

: 


: -Danny Keren.


Article 16959 of alt.revisionism:
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From: flax@aristotle (Jonas Flygare)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Marxist Holocaust Denial
Date: 03 Oct 1994 09:54:23 GMT
Organization: AlgoNet Public Access Node, Stockholm
Lines: 97
Message-ID: 
References:  
	
NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.algonet.se
In-reply-to: wmcguire@world.std.com's message of Sat, 1 Oct 1994 18:51:12 GMT

In article  wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) writes:

>In article ,
>flax@Krille.update.uu.se (Jonas Flygare) wrote:

>//>And would this apply any less to the Marxists who murdered over
>//>100 million innocent civilians in this century?
>//>Marxists--especially the dictatorship of the Marxist
>//>intelligentsia--felt hatred and contempt for anybody who was not
>//>one of them. And this attitude was eminently evident in the
>//>founder of Marxism himself--Karl Marx. He was a truly nasty
>//>specimen.
>//
>//[Ahhh, I should have guessed, back to your pet peeve.. When you are
>//faced with a statement that you can not counter easily, you turn to
>//the good ole marxist hatred of yours..

>Hey, everybody, check this out!

>If you object to the murder of 100 million innocent civilians by
>Marxists in this century, and the total ruination of many
>nations--economically, socially, and culturally--for decades,
>you've got a "pet peeve" and are indulging in "hatred" of
>Marxism.

Given the context of the discussion, yes, one may well regard it as
your pet peeve. Note that I have not said it is _wrong_ to discuss the
issue, or that you are wrong in doing so. But, the issue discussed is
the jewish holocaust, and you are evading the question, by pointing at
the russian holocaust.

>When six million Jews are murdered by the Nazis, this is a
>serious matter.

See above.

>When 100 million people are murdered by Marxists, complaining
>about this fact is a "pet peeve" and a manifestation of "Marxist
>hatred."

See above.

>Flygare is one of the folks I know well from
>talk.politics.mideast, where he displayed his militant Zionism at
>length, with a high ratio of personal abuse to facts, rational
>arguments, and solid documentation. It's interesting to see that
>he is also an apologist for Marxism. Actually, Zionism and
>Marxism are closely linked: most of the early Zionists were
>passionate Marxists, and a Marxist culture still permeates much
>of Israeli society--much to its detriment and economic health.

Hmmm... Zionist, and Marxist to boot?  Wow! I never knew that.. Care
to document your claim? Considering the amount of time since I last
read t.p.m, and even longer, since I wrote, since I was tired of
having to cope with israeli writers being upset with my views on
the Israeli "security" policy. (And no, I do not like it, since I've
lived on both sides of the border)
I would be very surprised if you got even one of them to agree that I
am a zionist. As for Marx, I do not agree with what he wrote, but
regard his texts as a reaction to how low, and middle class was
treated in many countries at the time. An american equivalent, albeit
more of an observer, would be Upton Sinclair, you might want to read
"The Jungle" if you have not done so already. Note the similarities in
describing how people live. Marx proposed a solution, that a lot of
people thought right, hence Marxism. Some made their own variety,
hence Stalinism, Leninism and Trotskism. To a casual observer (me) it
seems that the inherent mistake in all of them is that they base the
system on the idea that people are good, and do not mind sharing with
those who are poorer. I think that is a rare trait, and that a system
built on that idea will fail. I might be a pessimist, but who isn't?

Anyway, you are lying when you make the above statement. I can only
hope it stems from ignorance, otherwise I'd say you are a both stupid,
and a liar.


>I've been gathering together all the Marxist apologetics in this
>newsgroup from the anti-revisionist side; they provide remarkable
>support for Eugene Genovese's charge in the Summer Dissent that
>significant sectors of the left have not come to terms with the
>horrific damage that has been wrought in this century by leftist
>political movements.

Yes! When things gets tough, there's nothing like smacking labels onto
people and trying for some guilt by association! Way to go, Wayne!

>I always love it when die-hard Marxists beg, just give us one
>more chance! This time we'll get it right!

W#ho's begging?

>How stupid can you get? How many more tens of millions of lives
>would you have to take before the truth sank in that Marxism
>doesn't work in the real world and ruins everything it touches?

See my first comment. You are barking up the wrong tree, Wayne.



Article 16961 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Self-hating people
Date: 3 Oct 1994 05:42:28 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <36ojm4$32n@access4.digex.net>
References: <366hls$qli@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>  <36n28h$mvf@access3.digex.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article ,
Ross Vicksell  wrote:
>Michael P. Stein (mstein@access3.digex.net) wrote:
>: In article ,
>: Ross Vicksell  wrote:
>:     Elsewhere you posted information about a talk by Victor Ostrovsky 
>
>Sorry Mike, you got the wrong guy.

    Oops - sorry, you're right, that was Rick Savage.

    However, the two questions below still remain valid and I'd like you to 
answer them.

>: ... would you similarly 
>: characterize Ostrovsky as a "self-hating Jew?"  Why or why not?
>
>:     Also, I would point out that Ostrovsky is merely testimony.  Do you
>: believe that there is now sufficient proof of a Mossad plot to assassinate
>: Bush?  If so, what documents or physical evidence did Ostrovsky show you
>: to prove to you beyond a reasonable doubt that there was such a plot?
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 16985 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: More whore houses
In-Reply-To: codfish@netcom.com's message of Mon, 3 Oct 1994 04:54:31 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  
	
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 20:32:15 GMT
Lines: 49


From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
>: How many other professional armies have erected brothels? Tolerated
>
>The Japanese in WWII.  Remember the Korean women the Japanese took with
>them to Southeast Asia for use by their officers. 


Well, now there's an ideal to live up to.

Methinks you've lost focus on the question.

>: Even if the claim were true this is certainly a two-edged sword that
>: speaks volumes on what sick and twisted creeps these Nazis were.
>
>
>What's wrong with the reasons stated by Himmler?

They don't seem to much take into account the women involved do they?

>: The term *brothel* implies the women were paid for what they did.
>
>: How come I get the feeling this wasn't the case, anyone want to claim
>: otherwise?
>
>I presume they were paid in camp scrip.

And this was a voluntary position?

Or not.

>: Swell, they couldn't just kill and starve the prisoners, they forced
>: the women into sexual slavery also. Anything else Mr Vicksell would
>: like to say in the Nazis' defense?
>
>: What a swell bunch of guys, real men...tatooing little children,
>: forcing women into sexual slavery, real heros...
>
>For all I know, they were volunteers.

Volunteers to be in the camps in the first place?

C'mon...CAH-MAHN!

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 16986 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: More whore houses
In-Reply-To: codfish@netcom.com's message of Mon, 3 Oct 1994 04:58:28 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  <36lla5$54a@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
	
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 20:34:20 GMT
Lines: 29


From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
>Danny Keren (dzk@cs.brown.edu) wrote:
>: Ross Vicksell  wrote:
>
>: # During the summer of 1943, Himmler ordered the setting up of brothels in 
>: # concentration camps called Sonderbau (special building).  His aim 
>: # was to solve the sexual problem, combat homosexual practices, and 
>: # increase the worker's output ... In mid-December there were thirteen of 
>: # these women in Dachau."
>
>: What does this exactly prove? It is interesting, BTW, to see the
>: following speech from Himmler.
>
>
>It tends to lend credence to the contention that the patrons of the 
>Auschwitz cat house were prisoners rather than SS men.

I don't see that, what in the above statement leads you to say this?

It says there were 13 women. How many male prisoners were there? Let's
do some arithmetic...


-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 16990 of alt.revisionism:
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From: spok+@cs.cmu.edu (John Ockerbloom)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: New thread (was: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum)
Date: 3 Oct 1994 21:51:21 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <36pucp$6qh@casaba.srv.cs.cmu.edu>
References: <366hls$qli@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <36en9b$bi5@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>  
NNTP-Posting-Host: gs1.sp.cs.cmu.edu

In article ,
Ross Vicksell  wrote:
>For what it's worth, I've started a new thread called "Is the Holocaust a 
>Religion?", for people who want to discuss whether the HMM should be on 
>public land, whether it should be taxpayer funded, etc.

There's lots of memorials on public land.  Off the top of my head, in
Washington alone I can think of the Washington, Lincoln, and Jefferson
memorials, Maya Lin's breathtaking Vietnam War Memorial, the Navy
Memorial and Museum (near the National Archives), Arlington National
Cemetery (across the river in Virginia), and now the Holocaust
Memorial Museum.  And lots of smaller memorials as well.

I don't know offhand how public funds were allocated for these, but
wouldn't be surprised if some public money was involved.  I'd even
wager that some public religious services (i.e. prayers) are
occasionally scheduled at some of them (such as on Memorial Day).

Do you have problems with these memorials in general, or just with
the Holocaust one?

John Ockerbloom
-- 
==========================================================================
ockerbloom@cs.cmu.edu            1603 Beechwood Blvd., Pittsburgh PA 15217


Article 17004 of alt.revisionism:
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From: landpost@clark.net
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Autopsies on ashes
Date: 4 Oct 1994 03:02:31 GMT
Organization: Clark Internet Services, Inc.
Lines: 32
Message-ID: 
References:   <36lqch$cm0@access3.digex.net>  <36n203$t8g@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
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Mime-Version: 1.0
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In article <36n203$t8g@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) wrote:


> # You mean no excavations have been done around Auschwitz, how 
> # convenient. 
> 
> I understand that the Poles discovered large quantities of ash and
> human remains in Treblinka.

The Poles found nothing around Treblinka. 


 In Auschwitz, According to Reitlinger's 
> "The Final Solution" (1968 edition, p. 161), the ash was dumped into 
> the Sola river. 

Where are the remains???? 

 
> Also, when one does the calculation, it turns out that ashes - even
> from a huge number of corpses - take up a surprisingly small
> volume. To be more exact, we'll have to know the weight of a given
> volume of ash (I apologize for going into these gory details). 
> 

A 150 pound man would have to leave at least 1/2 pound of remains. You
say, "6,000,000 Jews were gassed and cremated", so where are the 3,000,000
pounds of remains????


Tim McCarthy
landpost@clark.net


Article 17009 of alt.revisionism:
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From: landpost@clark.net
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Goeth's arrest
Date: 4 Oct 1994 03:42:05 GMT
Organization: Clark Internet Services, Inc.
Lines: 18
Message-ID: 
References:  <36de93$gs4@access4.digex.net>  
NNTP-Posting-Host: landpost_ppp.clark.net
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In article ,
k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:


> No one has taken me up on it.  No revisionist has offered.  Landpost
> said he would but then backed down.
> 
> So I guess alt.revisionism certainly has nothing to do with attempting
> to prove the _nonexistence_ of gas chambers.
> 
--------

I'm waiting for a reply to my post "Jamie McCarthy's thin jackets". Er, I
mean I'm "standing" for a reply to this post.


Tim McCarthy
landpost@clark.net


Article 17017 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Autopsies on ashes
Date: 4 Oct 1994 07:03:25 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <36qunt$9is@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References:   <36n203$t8g@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

 wrote:
# dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) wrote:

## I understand that the Poles discovered large quantities of ash and
## human remains in Treblinka.

# The Poles found nothing around Treblinka. 

So, the Poles are also lying, not only the Jews?

##In Auschwitz, According to Reitlinger's 
## "The Final Solution" (1968 edition, p. 161), the ash was dumped into 
## the Sola river. 

# Where are the remains???? 

If the ashes were dumped into a river, how do you expect them
to be found?

# A 150 pound man would have to leave at least 1/2 pound of remains. You
# say, "6,000,000 Jews were gassed and cremated", so where are the 3,000,000
# pounds of remains????

1) Many of those murdered, such as infants and children, didn't
weigh anything like 150 pounds.

2) No one said "6,000,000 Jews were gassed and cremated". About a
half of the Jewish victims were gassed, the rest killed by other means.

3) As I wrote, Polish researchers found large quantities of ashes,
and numerous bone fragments, in Treblinka, in graves up to 7 meters
deep. This fact was, actually, posted here by Greg Raven.

4) I repeat that the amount of ashes, even from a very large number
of corpses, is quite easy to dispose of, simply by scattering it in
fields, or dumping it in rivers and swamps. If one calculates the
total volume of the ashes, it turns out to be surprisingly small.


-Danny Keren.


Article 17023 of alt.revisionism:
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From: btrosko@usr1.primenet.com (Brian Trosko)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Autopsies on ashes
Date: 3 Oct 1994 03:49:41 GMT
Organization: Primenet
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <36nv0l$987@news.primenet.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: usr1.primenet.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]

landpost@clark.net wrote:
: In article <36lqch$cm0@access3.digex.net>, mstein@access3.digex.net
: (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

: > In article ,
: > Wayne McGuire  wrote:
: > >So then no autopsies were performed? Is this the case?
: > 
: >     The victims were cremated.  How does one perform an autopsy on ashes?
: > 
: > 
: > >How long would it take for the evidence of gassing to disappear
: > >from the victims? Days? Weeks? Months?
: > 
: >     Wrong question.  How long does it take for the victim to disapper up 
: > the chimney?  Answer: about an hour.
: > -- 
: > Mike Stein                      The above represents the Absolute Truth.
: > POB 10420                       Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
: > Arlington, VA  22210            position of my employer.

: -------------------------

: Where are the millions of pounds of "holy" remains", you pimply-faced,
: atrophied, weasel ???????????????

: You mean no excavations have been done around Auschwitz, how convenient. 



: Tim McCarthy
: landpost@clark.net

--
The god of the Old Testament was really a tribe of RENEGADE SPACE CANNIBALS
						- Rob McElwaine


Article 17025 of alt.revisionism:
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From: lnyman@info.census.gov (Lisa Nyman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
Date: 4 Oct 1994 08:08:42 -0400
Organization: US Census Bureau
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <36rgka$lam@info.census.gov>
References:    
NNTP-Posting-Host: info.census.gov

In article ,
The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device  wrote:
>In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
>Vicksell) wrote:
>
>> This "full-size" stuff is purely your concoction.  We're just looking for 
>> a credible model.
>
>But your entire position that the model that exists is not "credible," is
>what?  Faurisson?  He says "stupid ARTISTIC" and that's enough for you? 
>What is his source for his assertions that the model is wrong?  Why is
>that source credible while the Museum's source is not?

Obviously, since the sculpture depicts living humans going in, and
dead bodies coming out, Faurisson must think it is not credible.

-- 
Lisa W. Nyman   301-763-6005   | Back by popular demand: |
--------------------------------------------------|-------------------------|
SF-19902.95-xy7/23(g) Standard Disclaimer on file |    Life's too short to  |
in the Central Office. I speak for me, Not U.S.   |   wear ugly underwear.  |


Article 17033 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Subject: Re: Marxist Holocaust Denial
Message-ID: 
Sender: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die
References:    <1994Oct4.163136.30565@miavx1>
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 01:35:33 GMT
Lines: 22

In article <1994Oct4.163136.30565@miavx1>,
bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov) wrote:

//> If you object to the murder of 100 million innocent civilians by
//> Marxists in this century, and the total ruination of many
//> nations--economically, socially, and culturally--for decades,
//> you've got a "pet peeve" and are indulging in "hatred" of
//> Marxism.
//
//        I hate to play number games, but wasn't the number about 70-80 million
//about a month ago?

No, it wasn't. 80 million is the high estimate for the victims of
Chinese Marxism alone. Soviet Marxists dispatched 20 million
innocent civilians in the twenties and thirties, and helped
provoke and set the stage for the so-called Holocaust.

The Marxist Holocaust in this century should be receiving at
least ten times the amount of attention in the popular and elite
media as the Nazi Holocaust. Eventually, it will--one can already
sense priorities beginning to shift on the question of twentieth
century democide.


Article 17034 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Subject: Re: Marxist Holocaust Denial
Message-ID: 
Sender: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die
References:    
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 01:41:26 GMT
Lines: 30

In article ,
golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device) wrote:

//If you object to the murders of 100 million by Marxists, good for you.  If
//you do it in a forum dedicated to Holocaust denial (or even just plain
//historical revisionism), you aren't likely to get too many accolades,
//because it just isn't relevant to the topic at hand...

Wrongo, D. J. Schaeffer--it is highly relevant to the topic at
hand. One school of LEGITIMATE revisionism on the Holocaust
argues that its importance has been vastly exaggerated compared
to worse political crimes in this century.

Jason Epstein in his dissenting remarks on Schindler's List in
the New York Review of Books prominently mentioned the issue of
Marxist political murder, a problem which Spielberg's
meretricious, shallow, and propagandistic movie is unable to
address in any meaningful way.

Other users here, including anti-revisionists, have been
extremely curious about the exact body count on the left side of
the political world.

Body counts do not tell the full tale. Add up all the person
years of human rights violations of all kinds, and Marxists beat
out Nazis by hundreds of times.

It's odd: I don't think I heard Steven Spielberg mention any of
these crimes once when he was pontificating about genocide in
interviews and speeches. Why?


Article 17037 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <366hls$qli@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <36ka9n$8dm@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <9LRZk0yNUAh1069yn@world.std.com>  <36pfb4$bma@agate.berkeley.edu>
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 00:54:09 GMT
Lines: 27

At the risk of seeming a spoil-sport, I would like to remind you all of
the title of this thread, "Faurisson vs. Berenbaum."  In the best of all
possible worlds, that's what we would be discussing.  To try to get things
back on track, I offer you an except from a fax I got from Faurisson a
couple of days ago: 

"... Please keep saying
1) Michael Berenbaum, when asked why there was in fact no true physical 
representation of a Nazi gas chamber, replied: 'the decision has been 
made not to give any physical representation of the Nazi gas chamber.'  
He refused to say why.  He did not say 'But there is a model.'
2) This model is 'artistic' or 'symbolic' but not scientific.  In fact, 
you can very well see today by looking at the ruins of Krema II in 
Birkenau that there were no holes in the roof as those shown in the 
model.  PERIOD!"

Some of you seem to think we're arguing about the authenticity of the 
"model" in the museum.  Not at all.  Michael Berenbaum himself says they 
have no authentic representation of a gas chamber at the museum.  There 
you have it.  Straight from the horses mouth.  I was there when he said it.

What we're arguing about is WHY they have no authentic model.  As I've 
suggested before, maybe one of you could ask him, if you really want to 
get to the bottom of this thing.  He wouldn't tell Faurisson.

               Ross Vicksell



Article 17039 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Self-hating people
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <366hls$qli@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>  <36n28h$mvf@access3.digex.net>  <36ojm4$32n@access4.digex.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 01:23:16 GMT
Lines: 12

Michael P. Stein (mstein@access4.digex.net) wrote:

: >: ... would you similarly 
: >: characterize Ostrovsky as a "self-hating Jew?"  Why or why not?
: >

But you must have heard the expression "self-hating Jew" before.  It's a 
Jew who says something negative about the state of Israel.  By this 
definition, I suppose Ostrovsky would qualify.  Since Beatte Klarsfeld 
has negative things to say about Germany, why not call her a "self-hating 
German?"
                Ross Vicksell


Article 17048 of alt.revisionism:
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From: lnyman@info.census.gov (Lisa Nyman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More whore houses
Date: 5 Oct 1994 09:35:06 -0400
Organization: US Census Bureau
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <36ua2a$5ei@info.census.gov>
References:  <36lla5$54a@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: info.census.gov

Ross Vicksell  wrote:

# During the summer of 1943, Himmler ordered the setting up of brothels in 
# concentration camps called Sonderbau (special building).  His aim 
# was to solve the sexual problem, combat homosexual practices, and 
# increase the worker's output ... In mid-December there were thirteen of 
# these women in Dachau."

So what does this have to do with your Auschwitz brothel?
How about providing some evidence/citations for that?  

-- 
Lisa W. Nyman   301-763-6005   | Back by popular demand: |
--------------------------------------------------|-------------------------|
SF-19902.95-xy7/23(g) Standard Disclaimer on file |    Life's too short to  |
in the Central Office. I speak for me, Not U.S.   |   wear ugly underwear.  |


Article 17061 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: More whore houses
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:   
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 1994 00:12:59 GMT
Lines: 63

Barry Shein (bzs@world.std.com) wrote:

: From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
: >: How many other professional armies have erected brothels? Tolerated
: >
: >The Japanese in WWII.  Remember the Korean women the Japanese took with
: >them to Southeast Asia for use by their officers. 


: Well, now there's an ideal to live up to.

: Methinks you've lost focus on the question.

You're the one that asked about other armies.

: >: Even if the claim were true this is certainly a two-edged sword that
: >: speaks volumes on what sick and twisted creeps these Nazis were.
: >
: >
: >What's wrong with the reasons stated by Himmler?

: They don't seem to much take into account the women involved do they?

: >: The term *brothel* implies the women were paid for what they did.
: >
: >: How come I get the feeling this wasn't the case, anyone want to claim
: >: otherwise?
: >
: >I presume they were paid in camp scrip.

: And this was a voluntary position?

: Or not.

: >: Swell, they couldn't just kill and starve the prisoners, they forced
: >: the women into sexual slavery also. Anything else Mr Vicksell would
: >: like to say in the Nazis' defense?
: >
: >: What a swell bunch of guys, real men...tatooing little children,
: >: forcing women into sexual slavery, real heros...
: >
: >For all I know, they were volunteers.

: Volunteers to be in the camps in the first place?

Be serious.
 
: C'mon...CAH-MAHN!


The post by Annya666, citing the book "Playing for Time", which is about 
the Auschwitz orchestra, makes mention of a woman who was ostracized by 
her fellow inmates after she turned to prostitution.  The implication 
that she did it voluntarily is clear.

: -- 
:         -Barry Shein

: Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
: Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


               Ross Vicksell


Article 17062 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: More whore houses
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:  <36lla5$54a@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> 
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 1994 00:26:25 GMT
Lines: 37

Barry Shein (bzs@world.std.com) wrote:

: From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
: >Danny Keren (dzk@cs.brown.edu) wrote:
: >: Ross Vicksell  wrote:
: >
: >: # During the summer of 1943, 
: >: # Himmler ordered the setting up of brothels in 
: >: # concentration camps called Sonderbau (special building).  His aim 
: >: # was to solve the sexual problem, combat homosexual practices, and 
: >: # increase the worker's output
: >: # ... In mid-December there were thirteen of 
: >: # these women in Dachau."
: >
: >: What does this exactly prove? It is interesting, BTW, to see the
: >: following speech from Himmler.
: >
: >
: >It tends to lend credence to the contention that the patrons of the 
: >Auschwitz cat house were prisoners rather than SS men.

: I don't see that, what in the above statement leads you to say this?


Concentration camps plural.  Auschwitz was a concentration camp, too.

: It says there were 13 women. 
:      How many male prisoners were there? Let's
: do some arithmetic...

All-nighters were not offered, I would guess.

: -- 
:         -Barry Shein

: Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
: Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 17063 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More whore houses
Date: Thu, 06 Oct 1994 03:19:00 -0400
Organization: University of Michigan
Lines: 28
Message-ID: 
References: 
   
   
   
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm005-03.dialip.mich.net

codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote:

> The post by Annya666, citing the book "Playing for Time", which is about 
> the Auschwitz orchestra, makes mention of a woman who was ostracized by 
> her fellow inmates after she turned to prostitution.  The implication 
> that she did it voluntarily is clear.

The implication is also clear that she did it because inmates were given
a single piece of bread each day to eat.  Getting more food was often
the difference between survival and death.  Primo Levi, an inmate, claimed
that getting food and conserving calories were the most important
life-saving measures at the camp.  He at one point even refers to the act
of washing his face as a waste of energy that would thus hasten his death.
Bread was the unit of currency in the camp.  At another point, Levi
haggles with another inmate, trying to decide whether a butter knife is
worth one-and-a-third or one-and-a-quarter slices of bread.

So a woman turned to prostitution to get more bread.  She got more bread,
she ate more, and maybe she didn't end up as one of the hundreds of
thousands of Auschwitz inmates who starved to death.

And Mr. Vicksell calls that "voluntary."

The implication is clear.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "...just consider alt.revisionism a suburb of talk.bizarre
  and everything starts falling into place."  - Steve Miller


Article 17066 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Is the Holocaust a Religion?
Date: 6 Oct 1994 07:36:47 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <3709ef$83t@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References:  <36l88e$2h8@newsbf01.news.aol.com>  
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

Thomas Doyal  wrote:

# When the believers try to dignify "jumping  buckets of Flesh" 

Do you know for sure that if muscles are cut from a person who was
just shot (and may yet be alive), and thrown into a bucket, they
might not twitch and make the bucket move?

Yes or no?

# and "spurting gysers of Jewish blood" nonsense 

The correct spelling is "geysers".

It seems some strange things can happen if 33,000 people are buried
in the same place (as was in Babi-Yar, to which the testimony
refers). I posted the following a few times:



   In March, 1942, Albert Hartel, a Gestapo expert on church affairs, 
was driving with Blobel towards a country villa outside Kiev used by
Major-General Thomas, the Security Police Commander. At the Babi
Yar ravine Hartel noticed small explosions which threw up columns of
earth.  It was the thaw, releasing the gases from thousands of
bodies, and Blobel explained: 'Here my Jews are buried.'



So, perhaps "geysers of Jewish blood" is less accurate than "columns
of earth mixed with blood". Do you have any evidence that, when such
a huge number of corpses are packed in a grave, the combined effect
of the gases released from them might not generate such phenomena?

Yes or no? 

# you know you don't stand a 
# chance of changing their  mind with truth. 

Maybe the truth is too complicated for you to understand? Have you
considered that option?


-Danny Keren.



Article 17072 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: What Did Vicksell "FORGET" in Dr. Morgen's Testimony?
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <36od3t$qm3@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 04:51:27 GMT
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Danny Keren (dzk@cs.brown.edu) wrote:
: In an article he posted yesterday, Vicksell tried to "prove" that
: the SS was concerned about the fate of prisoners in Nazi camps.
: As a "proof", he cited the testimony of Dr. George Konrad Morgen,
: an SS judge (and also an SS-Sturmbannfuherer). Vicksell claimed
: that Morgen's job, which he testified about, was to investigate
: cases of cruelty against prisoners, and that this demonstrates that 
: they were not subjected to mistreatment and murder.
: ...

Hey, again I get undue credit for somebody else's article.

            RFoss Vicksell


Article 17073 of alt.revisionism:
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From: annya666@aol.com (AnnyA666)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Response to Smith (was: Re: Revisionism and Hitler)
Date: 6 Oct 1994 09:47:01 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf01.news.aol.com

In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
Vicksell) writes:

>Bradley has told the world again and again that he does not profess to be
>a "revisionist scholar."  He and I are publicists, not scholars. 

I find this really amazing...PUBLICISTS!  Since when does 'history' need a
publicist! What an appalling designation.  If your theories are correct
and properly presented you should have no need for a publicist!  I think I
just lost the respect I had left for both of you...


Article 17122 of alt.revisionism:
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From: flax@aristotle (Jonas Flygare)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Marxist Holocaust Denial
Date: 06 Oct 1994 22:03:16 GMT
Organization: AlgoNet Public Access Node, Stockholm
Lines: 12
Message-ID: 
References:  
	
NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.algonet.se
In-reply-to: wmcguire@world.std.com's message of Sat, 1 Oct 1994 18:51:12 GMT

In article  wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) writes:

   Flygare is one of the folks I know well from
   talk.politics.mideast, where he displayed his militant Zionism at
   length, with a high ratio of personal abuse to facts, rational
   arguments, and solid documentation. It's interesting to see that
   he is also an apologist for Marxism. Actually, Zionism and
   Marxism are closely linked: most of the early Zionists were
   passionate Marxists, and a Marxist culture still permeates much
   of Israeli society--much to its detriment and economic health.

Hey Wayne! I'm still waiting for some documentation of the above claim!


Article 17123 of alt.revisionism:
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From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Subject: Re: Marxist Holocaust Denial
Message-ID: 
Sender: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die
References:  
	 
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 1994 23:56:21 GMT
Lines: 25

In article , flax@aristotle (Jonas Flygare) wrote:
//In article  wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) writes:
//
//   Flygare is one of the folks I know well from
//   talk.politics.mideast, where he displayed his militant Zionism at
//   length, with a high ratio of personal abuse to facts, rational
//   arguments, and solid documentation. It's interesting to see that
//   he is also an apologist for Marxism. Actually, Zionism and
//   Marxism are closely linked: most of the early Zionists were
//   passionate Marxists, and a Marxist culture still permeates much
//   of Israeli society--much to its detriment and economic health.
//
//Hey Wayne! I'm still waiting for some documentation of the above claim!

Which one? There are two claims above. I'll be happy to document
the second claim, but I am not going to be rummaging through my
archives soon to dig out your old messages. I do remember
distinctly some private correspondence between us, in which I
provided you with a list of books on the Israeli-Arab conflict.
Your response left a good deal to be desired.

The Marxist/Zionist connection: that's a rich subject, on which
there exist many reputable books and articles. Daniel Doron wrote
an especially useful article on the subject in Moment a year or
two ago.


Article 17130 of alt.revisionism:
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From: annya666@aol.com (AnnyA666)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More whore houses
Date: 6 Oct 1994 15:10:01 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 21
Sender: news@newsbf01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <371i29$8pc@newsbf01.news.aol.com>
References: 

In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
Vicksell) writes:


The post by Annya666, citing the book "Playing for Time", which is about 
the Auschwitz orchestra, makes mention of a woman who was ostracized by 
her fellow inmates after she turned to prostitution.  The implication 
that she did it voluntarily is clear.

Codfish, do you have reading comprehension problems?  If not, I'll have to
ask you to desist changing the meaning of my notes.  The poor girl in
question did indeed turn to prostitution in exchange for food and was
indeed ostracised (after her friends had made a strong effort to dissuade
her from persuing this activity) HOWEVER, I also mentioned that her
customers were SS, Kapos and Polish workers.  She was ostracised for
consorting with the enemy, not for prostiution.

By the way, you might pick up a copy of "Playing for TIme" (and read it). 
You might learn something.  If reading is too difficult, the story was
made into a credible TV-movie starring famed Pro-Palestinian Anti-Zionist
activist, Vanessa Redgrave.


Article 17156 of alt.revisionism:
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From: landpost@clark.net
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Thin jackets"
Date: 7 Oct 1994 02:07:04 GMT
Organization: Clark Internet Services, Inc.
Lines: 9
Message-ID: 
References:  <36de93$gs4@access4.digex.net>    
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In article ,
k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

GARBABE DELETED:

Heresay, all of it. 

Tim McCarthy
landpost@clark.net


Article 17158 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:  <36v0kb$gmd@newsbf01.news.aol.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 1994 21:43:09 GMT
Lines: 16

AnnyA666 (annya666@aol.com) wrote:
: In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
: Vicksell) writes:

: >What we're arguing about is WHY they have no authentic model.  As I've 
: >suggested before, maybe one of you could ask him, if you really want to 
: >get to the bottom of this thing.  He wouldn't tell Faurisson.

: Why don't you ask him YOURSELF, since YOU'RE the one who seems to thing
: this is such an important point.  The fact that someone wouldn't jump when
: Faurrison commanded isn't so amazing in and of itself, IMO.

I'm not the only one.  Wayne McGuire, who says he believes in the Holocaust 
story, expressed surprise too.

         Ross Vicksell


Article 17161 of alt.revisionism:
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From: golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Self-hating people
Date: Fri, 07 Oct 1994 00:25:21 -0600
Organization: MCSNet Services
Lines: 24
Message-ID: 
References: <366hls$qli@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>  <36n28h$mvf@access3.digex.net>  <36ojm4$32n@access4.digex.net>  
NNTP-Posting-Host: golux.pr.mcs.net

In article , wmcguire@world.std.com
(Wayne McGuire) wrote:

> Ostrovsky is not in any meaningful sense a "self-hating Jew." He
> appears to be comfortable with his Jewishness. What he is not
> comfortable with is the provocative, illegal, and unaccountable
> behavior of the Mossad.

Well, is it the Mossad, or a right-wing faction inside the Mossad?  You
seem to have a habit of blurring these potentially important distinctions.

> He is a classic whistleblower, someone
> whose conscience and values were too strong to go along any more
> with policies he thought were wrong and dangerous.

You've researched Ostrovsky's motives so thoroughly?  You know he is a man
odf great "conscience and values"?  I thought you only cared about whether
the publisher had a good reputation....

-- 
D. J. Schaeffer |       The Todal looks like a blob of glup.
golux@mcs.com   |     It makes a sound like rabbits screaming,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^        and smells of old, unopened rooms.
                            -- Thurber, _The 13 Clocks_


Article 17164 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What Did O'Keefe and Hoffman "FORGET" in Dr. Morgen's Testimony?
Date: 7 Oct 1994 01:07:22 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <372l2a$83c@access4.digex.net>
References: <36od3t$qm3@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article ,
Ross Vicksell  wrote:
>Danny Keren (dzk@cs.brown.edu) wrote:
>: In an article he posted yesterday, Vicksell tried to "prove" that
>: the SS was concerned about the fate of prisoners in Nazi camps.
>: As a "proof", he cited the testimony of Dr. George Konrad Morgen,
>: an SS judge (and also an SS-Sturmbannfuherer).

>Hey, again I get undue credit for somebody else's article.

    The article was by Theodore O'Keefe, but Ross Vicksell was the poster.

    However, Morgen was also cited by Michael Hoffman II
(hoffman2nd@delphi.com).  Mr. Hoffman has loudly accused Steven Spielberg
of falsifying the Talmud by DELIBERATELY omitting the words "of Israel"
(although Spielberg was really just trying to show what happened in the
life of Schindler, where those words were also apparently omitted from the
ring, and I have shown that there exist variant texts that also omit the
words).  Hoffman has also sneeringly accused me of deliberately concealing
that the variant text was mentioned in a footnote, even though I clearly
said, "note 4." 

    Yet Mr. Hoffman, who becomes so outraged over omissions, committed 
the same fault himself here with regard to Morgen.

    But of course, Mr. Hoffman has also accused me of hypocrisy.

    Perhaps Bradley Smith, who seems to know so much about psychology, 
could tell us what the term "projection" means.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 17169 of alt.revisionism:
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From: golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Thin jackets"
Date: Fri, 07 Oct 1994 01:04:31 -0600
Organization: MCSNet Services
Lines: 40
Message-ID: 
References:  <36de93$gs4@access4.digex.net>     
NNTP-Posting-Host: golux.pr.mcs.net

In article ,
landpost@clark.net wrote:

> In article ,
> k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
> 
> GARBABE DELETED:
> 
> Heresay, all of it. 

I believe you think you mean "hearsay."  (Unless you mean heresy. Hmm...) 
And it may or may not be, depending on the perspective you take.  On the
one hand, it is offered as the actual testimony of an eyewitness; hence
not hearsay.  On the other hand, it is being offered here with the witness
out of the "courtroom" (so to speak), and it is offered to prove the truth
of the matter being asserted (i.e., the facts of winter and clothing in
Auschwitz); hence, hearsay.  Back on the first hand, however, it appears
to be a diary, indicating that it may fall into the "present sense
impression" exception to our carefully crafted hearsay rule; hence perhaps
admissible hearsay.  (I won't go into the effect of Mr. Levi's
unavailability on the hearsay nature of his writing.)

Of course, this isn't a court of law, so the hearsay rule is pretty much
irrelevant.  You are perfectly welcome, if you so desire, to dismiss Mr.
Levi's journal as "hearsay" and to refuse to accept what he wrote as
truth.  However, you should realize that the exact same objection holds
with respect to your clothing list and your train schedules: they're just
something that someone wrote down once, and that someone is not here to
authenticate or corroborate their writing.

So instead of calling it "garbage" and dismissing it as "heresay," perhaps
you might try to form a cogent response, if such a thing is possible, to
Mr. Levi's description of Auschwitz winters.  (Maybe you could assure us
that the climate in Poland during the war was actually quite tropical.)

-- 
D. J. Schaeffer |       The Todal looks like a blob of glup.
golux@mcs.com   |     It makes a sound like rabbits screaming,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^        and smells of old, unopened rooms.
                            -- Thurber, _The 13 Clocks_


Article 17185 of alt.revisionism:
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Marxist Holocaust Denial
Message-ID: <1994Oct7.044456.30789@miavx1>
From: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov)
Date: 7 Oct 94 04:44:56 -0500
References:     
Organization: Miami University
Lines: 28

In article , wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) writes:
> In article <1994Oct4.163136.30565@miavx1>,
> bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov) wrote:
> 
> //> If you object to the murder of 100 million innocent civilians by
> //> Marxists in this century, and the total ruination of many
> //> nations--economically, socially, and culturally--for decades,
> //> you've got a "pet peeve" and are indulging in "hatred" of
> //> Marxism.
> //
> //        I hate to play number games, but wasn't the number about 70-80 million
> //about a month ago?
> 
> No, it wasn't. 80 million is the high estimate for the victims of
> Chinese Marxism alone. Soviet Marxists dispatched 20 million
> innocent civilians in the twenties and thirties, and helped
> provoke and set the stage for the so-called Holocaust.

How do youmake this connection between Stalin's murderous program and Hitlers?  

Where's your source of numbers for this 80 million?

=======================================================================
Brian Harmon           "What is done from love is always beyond
Miami University	   good and evil."
Oxford, Ohio 45056	  	 -Nietzsche, _Beyond Good and Evil_	   
--------------bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu--------------------------



Article 17186 of alt.revisionism:
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
Message-ID: <1994Oct7.050916.30791@miavx1>
From: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov)
Date: 7 Oct 94 05:09:16 -0500
References: <366hls$qli@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>  
Organization: Miami University
Lines: 94

In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:
> Jamie McCarthy (k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu) wrote:
> : codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote:
> 
> : > : # I would like to see a blueprint of a gas chamber, with all the
> : > : # appropriate cites. Would you please post it? Thanks.
> 
> : And if that happens, they simply fall back on the party line,
> : which is that there are no gas chambers, they were simply morgues.
> 
> 
> Here's one for you.  If these rooms were gas chambers and not morgues, 
> why did the Germans build them below ground level?  Makes sense for 
> morgues but not gas chambers.

Actually Ross, it makes perfect sense for gas chambers to be below ground.

1) keeping the chamber below ground will keep the ambient temperature in the
room higher in winter (the earth will act as insulation).  A below ground room
is much easier to keep heated for this reason.  
        Keeping the room warm will allow the gas to evaporate faster.  However,
the gas worked just fine at cold temps too, just slower (1).


2) If the room is below ground, it is very easy to reach the roof to pour gas
in thru the vents in the ceiling.  (You can see these venst from aerial
photos).
(2)
 
> : OK, Ross, let's take your assertion and run with it.  You've just
> : said that Leichenkeller 1, the gas chamber in Krema II, is a
> : morgue.  (I have on my hard drive a GIF of the blueprint to that
> : room, but unfortunately I don't have a cite for it;  I hope to
> : rectify that within the next week.  If you'd like the GIF and/or
> : the cite, just say so.)
> 
> : So, if that room is a morgue:
> 
> : * why does it have a ventilation system?
> 
> 
> That's an easy one.  Who wants to smell rotting corpses?

        Except that the ventilation system would pull air from _inside_ the
room to the _outside_, filling the camp with the smell of rotting bodies.
        
> 
> :    (Don't say "to ventilate out the Zyklon-B used to disinfect it;
> :    everyone knows that Zyklon-B is useless for killing bacteria.)
> 
> : * why did Leuchter find Prussian Blue compounds, formed by extended
> :   contact with cyanide gas, at the "morgue" at Krema I?
> :  
> :    (Ditto.)
> 
> 
> Like I said, they used the stuff all over the camp.

but you did not name examples.

> : * why did the SS guards blow up the "morgues" before fleeing the
> :   camp?
> 
> 
> It's not clear that it was Germans rather than the Russians, that blew up 
> these facilities.  Anyway, even if the Germans did do it, so what?  They 
> blew up bridges, factories, etc. etc.  Why not morgues?

1) aerial photos of the camp show the gas chambers wqere dismantled around Dec
21, 1944, well before the Russians liberated the camp in January 1945.

2) Many other structures in the camp were _not_ destroyed as of 14 January 1945
(again from aerial photos) This includes barrack, guard towers, etc.  If
"harmless" structures like barracks and the converted Krema I were left intact,
why would the Nazis waste time and energy do destroy _morgues_???
       
       as Jamie said, they had something to hide.

> 
> :    A total of 52 crematorium furnaces, which - according to the SS
> :    correspondance - could burn 4,756 corpses in 24 working hours.
> 
> bullshit

        Well well Ross, do you have a source for this?

emialed to Mr. Vicksell.

=======================================================================
Brian Harmon           "What is done from love is always beyond
Miami University	   good and evil."
Oxford, Ohio 45056	  	 -Nietzsche, _Beyond Good and Evil_	   
--------------bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu--------------------------



Article 17194 of alt.revisionism:
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
Message-ID: <1994Oct7.062631.30798@miavx1>
From: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov)
Date: 7 Oct 94 06:26:31 -0500
References: <366hls$qli@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>   <1994Oct7.050916.30791@miavx1>
Organization: Miami University
Lines: 37

Whoops, forgot to include the sources on my own msg.


In article <1994Oct7.050916.30791@miavx1>, bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov) writes:
> 
> Actually Ross, it makes perfect sense for gas chambers to be below ground.
> 
> 1) keeping the chamber below ground will keep the ambient temperature in the
> room higher in winter (the earth will act as insulation).  A below ground room
> is much easier to keep heated for this reason.  
>         Keeping the room warm will allow the gas to evaporate faster.  However,
> the gas worked just fine at cold temps too, just slower (1).
> 
> 
> 2) If the room is below ground, it is very easy to reach the roof to pour gas
> in thru the vents in the ceiling.  (You can see these venst from aerial
> photos).
> (2)

        Here they are:

1) Nuremburg Document NI-9912, the Degesch Manual on how to 
use Zyklon properly.  I obtained both German and English 
versions from:
        Mendelsohn, John and Detwiler, Donald S.  _The 
Holocaust:  Selected Documents in Eighteen Volumes._   "Volume 
12: The 'Final Solution' in the Extermination Camps and the 
Aftermath"  (New York:  Garland Publishing) c. 1982,  p 141.

2) Brugioni, Dino and Poirier, Robert.  _The Holocaust 
Revisited:  A Retrospective Analysis of the Auschwitz-Birkenau 
Extermination Complex_.  (Washington D.C.:  Central Intelligence Agency).  (c) 
Feb. 1979,  pp 15, 17

Brian
--------------bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu--------------------------



Article 17195 of alt.revisionism:
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From: flax@aristotle (Jonas Flygare)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Marxist Holocaust Denial
Date: 07 Oct 1994 13:02:56 GMT
Organization: AlgoNet Public Access Node, Stockholm
Lines: 45
Message-ID: 
References:  
	 
	
NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.algonet.se
In-reply-to: wmcguire@world.std.com's message of Thu, 6 Oct 1994 23:56:21 GMT

In article  wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) writes:

>In article , flax@aristotle (Jonas Flygare) wrote:
>//In article  wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) writes:
>//
>//>Flygare is one of the folks I know well from
>//>talk.politics.mideast, where he displayed his militant Zionism at
>//>length, with a high ratio of personal abuse to facts, rational
>//>arguments, and solid documentation. It's interesting to see that
>//>he is also an apologist for Marxism. Actually, Zionism and
>//>Marxism are closely linked: most of the early Zionists were
>//>passionate Marxists, and a Marxist culture still permeates much
>//>of Israeli society--much to its detriment and economic health.
>//
>//Hey Wayne! I'm still waiting for some documentation of the above claim!

>Which one? There are two claims above. I'll be happy to document
>the second claim, but I am not going to be rummaging through my
>archives soon to dig out your old messages. I do remember
>distinctly some private correspondence between us, in which I
>provided you with a list of books on the Israeli-Arab conflict.
>Your response left a good deal to be desired.

+s, then. I meant both. I do not remember having said anything
labelling me as belonging to any of the factions you list above. 
If I have been abusive in letters to you, that is purely a matter of
my personal opinion of you. You have my permission to post any letters
from me, that you think support your statement(s) above. My only
condition being that you post the entire letter, or if there's a
number of letters in the exchange, the whole exchange. If you are not
prepared to back your statement(s), I suggest that you retract them. 

>The Marxist/Zionist connection: that's a rich subject, on which
>there exist many reputable books and articles. Daniel Doron wrote
>an especially useful article on the subject in Moment a year or
>two ago.

I am not interested in either Zionism, or Marxism. My statements on
the subject is regarding your use of the term, and your perception of
European/East bloc/Mideast history.
If you think you need support from the above litterature, quotes
supportive of your statement(s) will be appreciated, since only then
will people have incentive to check your statements, and correlate
them to the sources you give. If you think it's impossible to quote,
state so.


Article 17202 of alt.revisionism:
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From: freedman@software.mitel.com (Gordon Freedman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Is the Holocaust a Religion?
Date: 7 Oct 1994 12:42:40 -0400
Organization: Mitel Corporation
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <373tq0$pqt@picard.mitel.com>
References:  <36l88e$2h8@newsbf01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: picard.mitel.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0]

BradleyRS (bradleyrs@aol.com) wrote:

: By and large, Faurisson and I are "evil" because we express doubt about
: the "truth" of some of the "teachings" on the "Holocaust." When we  laugh
: at some of those teachings, it sounds like blasphemy to those who are true
: believers. 

: There's something there worth talking about. 

: -- Bradley Smith

Mr. Smith,

I will begin by saying that you provided no support for your assertion that
individuals on alt.revisionism have called you evil.  Based on your mendacity,
I will not take your word for it; however, it may be an applicable term and,
in case it has actually been written about you, I will explain why.

I believe the word evil is applicable to you for several reasons.  Don't
misunderstrand me, I don't find you evil personally (repugnant or ignorant
perhaps) but let me try to clarify why others may.

Firstly, the concept of good and evil are moral values.  Many individuals
have moral values dictated by their religious beliefs and in Christianity
good and evil have taken a special role.  Many religions, however, relegate 
good and evil to no greater a position than other moral, ethical, and
legal concerns.

This said, our society frowns on certain activities as "immoral." (Translated
based on the Christian ethic of the majority, this is "evil.")  Among these are
purposely deceiving others and laughing at others misfortunes.  If I were to
apply a different ethical paradigm to these actions, I may conclude that you
are untrustworthy and callous (intellectual) or a disgusting pig (emotional)
or anything there between.

You have attemted to deceive those who are not learned enough regarding the
drivel you spew under the guise of "questions" or "open debate" or "naivete."
You have also, on numerous occasions, sadistically made jokes about the pain
and suffering of innocent civilians during World War II.  These actions may have
led to you being described as "evil," which is acurate within the paradigm  
of most people.  I prefer to subscribe to a different paradigm which describes
people who act as you do in a far less flattering fashion.

Mr. Smith, you may have been called "evil" because of your actions but not for
your beliefs.  If you cannot distinguish between believing that "the Aryan
Race is superior" (whatever that means) and viciously murdering innocent
civilians because of their religious beliefs, then you will have trouble
understanding what I mean when I say that you are being evaluated based on
your actions and not your words.

Gordon Freedman
- Just a friendly opinion which is not my employer's - 


Article 17232 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Response to Smith (was: Re: Revisionism and Hitler)
Date: 5 Oct 1994 22:18 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 15
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <5OCT199422183569@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <35fbdr$icm@newsbf01.news.aol.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: misvms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes...

>: As always the "Revisionist Scholars" seek to present themselves as unbiased
>: truth seekers.  

>Bradley has told the world again and again that he does not profess to be
>a "revisionist scholar."  He and I are publicists, not scholars. 

    I believe you.  You are clearly not after truth or knowledge here. 
    Clearly you are marketing a political product independent of whatever
    the truth may actually be.  It is nice of you to admit as much so
    directly.

===========================================================================
daniel david mittleman     -     danny@arizona.edu     -     (602) 621-2932


Article 17233 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Response to Smith (was: Re: Revisionism and Hitler)
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:  <370v4l$3kg@newsbf01.news.aol.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 05:43:29 GMT
Lines: 22

AnnyA666 (annya666@aol.com) wrote:
: In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
: Vicksell) writes:

: >Bradley has told the world again and again that he does not profess to be
: >a "revisionist scholar."  He and I are publicists, not scholars. 

: I find this really amazing...PUBLICISTS!  Since when does 'history' need a
: publicist! 

When your bucking the establishment, your stoff will never receive any 
notice by the masses until you publicize and popularize it.  Look at what 
the movie "JFK" accomplished.

: What an appalling designation.  If your theories are correct
: and properly presented you should have no need for a publicist!  

Should but not would.  Nobody would ever hear about revisionism.  

: I think I just lost the respect I had left for both of you...

                Ross Vicksell


Article 17237 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <366hls$qli@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>   <36v006$3jp@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 07:40:12 GMT
Lines: 64

Danny Keren (dzk@cs.brown.edu) wrote:
: Ross Vicksell   wrote:

: # Here's one for you.  If these rooms were gas chambers and not morgues, 
: # why did the Germans build them below ground level?  Makes sense for 
: # morgues but not gas chambers.

: Again, Vicksell proves he simply knows nothing about the Holocaust,
: absolutely nothing.

: The gas chambers of Kremas I, IV and V were above ground. As 
: for Kremas II and III, Pressac suggests that they were first
: designed as morgues and then converted to gas chambers. I
: don't know if this is true or not, but he does offer 
: some reasonable arguments.


We were talking specifically about Krema II.

: ## * why did the SS guards blow up the "morgues" before fleeing the
: ##   camp?
:  
: # It's not clear that it was Germans rather than the Russians, that blew up 
: # these facilities.  

: Bloody rubbish. The crematoriums were dismantled and destroyed
: by the SS before they left the camp.

: # Anyway, even if the Germans did do it, so what?  They 
: # blew up bridges, factories, etc. etc.  Why not morgues?

: What a nitwit. If these were indeed "morgues", they would
: leave them there, to prove they weren't gas chambers.

Why should the Germans try to prove anything to the Russians?


: # Makes sense to me.  These were places to store cadavers prior to 
: # cremation, not to do autopsies.  What "undressing room?"

: Now that's a good one. Vicksell doesn't even know that the
: correspondences about the construction of the Kremas contain
: references to an "undressing room".

: ##    All in all - "morgues" totaling 2,372 sqaure meters (!!!).
:  
: # Carlo Mattogno has concluded that the Auschwitz morgue capacity was not 
: # excessive, given the worst case scenario, a major Typhus epidemic.  As 
: # soon as I track down his calculations, I'll post them.

: Yes, do that.

: ##  A total of 52 crematorium furnaces, which - according to the SS
: ##   correspondance - could burn 4,756 corpses in 24 working hours.

: # bullshit

: Ah, that's a new one. Does Vicksell now claim it's not true
: that Auschwitz had 52 cremation furnaces, a fact that "revisionists"
: never denied?


: -Danny Keren.



Article 17240 of alt.revisionism:
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From: Bradley R. Smith 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Is the Holocaust a Religion?
Date: Fri, 7 Oct 94 22:32:39 -0500
Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice)
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <5y2Upgv.bradleyrs@delphi.com>
References:  <36l88e$2h8@newsbf01.news.aol.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1g.delphi.com
X-To: Barry Shein 

Barry Shein  writes:
 
>It's so damn obvious, I don't know why you think you have anyone
>fooled other than you must also possess the mind of a child.
>
>Adults don't fall for this transparent crap, Smith. You're not even
>very good at it.
 
Several million persons in North America either disbelieve the orthodox
Holocaust story or have serious doubts about it. There are tens of millions in
the rest of the world who disbelieve or doubt it.
It would be interesting for you to attempt to demonstrate that none are
adults -- they must all be children, eh Barry?


Article 17243 of alt.revisionism:
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More whore houses
Message-ID: <1994Oct7.224214.30841@miavx1>
From: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov)
Date: 7 Oct 94 22:42:14 -0500
References:    
Organization: Miami University
Lines: 28

In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:
> : >
> : >For all I know, they were volunteers.
> 
> : Volunteers to be in the camps in the first place?
> 
> Be serious.

He is.

> The post by Annya666, citing the book "Playing for Time", which is about 
> the Auschwitz orchestra, makes mention of a woman who was ostracized by 
> her fellow inmates after she turned to prostitution.  The implication 
> that she did it voluntarily is clear.

        But did she work in the brothel?  

        By the way, I don't think we ever quite heard your evidence supporting
the existence of these brothels in the first place.

        It wouldn't be _testimony_, would it?  

not e-mailed to Mr. Vicksell.
=======================================================================
Brian Harmon           "Everything has its wonders, even darkness and
Miami University	  silence.."
Oxford, Ohio 45056		-Helen Keller
--------------bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu--------------------------


Article 17244 of alt.revisionism:
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From: Bradley R. Smith 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Is the Holocaust a Religion?
Date: Fri, 7 Oct 94 22:45:22 -0500
Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice)
Lines: 43
Message-ID: 
References:  <36l88e$2h8@newsbf01.news.aol.com>   <3709ef$83t@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1g.delphi.com
X-To: Danny Keren 

Danny Keren  writes:
 
>It seems some strange things can happen if 33,000 people are buried
>in the same place (as was in Babi-Yar, to which the testimony
>refers). I posted the following a few times:
 
When Elie Wiesel wrote about this he didn't say 33,000 dead:  he said "some say
135,000" and that others say "175,000."
 
 
>   In March, 1942, Albert Hartel, a Gestapo expert on church affairs, 
>was driving with Blobel towards a country villa outside Kiev used by
>Major-General Thomas, the Security Police Commander. At the Babi
>Yar ravine Hartel noticed small explosions which threw up columns of
>earth.  It was the thaw, releasing the gases from thousands of
>bodies, and Blobel explained: 'Here my Jews are buried.'
 
Reitlinger didn't say Blobel said "Here my Jews are buried."  He said Hartel
saisaid Blobel said it.
 
Easy for Hartel to say.
 
>So, perhaps "geysers of Jewish blood" is less accurate than "columns
 
 
>So, perhaps "geysers of Jewish blood" is less accurate than "columns
>of earth mixed with blood". Do you have any evidence that, when such
>a huge number of corpses are packed in a grave, the combined effect
>of the gases released from them might not generate such phenomena?
 
It's not a matter of being less accurate. It's a matter of being two different
tthings.
 
By the way, Russiand taxi drivers are telling people today it was "12,000"
that were buried at Babi Yar. Maybe we'll find out pretty soon there were
a few hundred people killed in the fighting for Kiev from all reasons,
some fraction of which were Jews.
 
In any event, when a man can commit himself in writing to the proposition that
Jewish cadavers can pump geysers of blood from the graves for months after
they were buried -- Wiesel didn't say anything about these talented corpses
waiting around for the Spring thaw -- then we have qwho is dedicated to
something resembling, in his mind, a cult.


Article 17245 of alt.revisionism:
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From: Bradley R. Smith 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Is the Holocaust a Religion?
Date: Fri, 7 Oct 94 22:49:45 -0500
Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice)
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <50wWhEh.bradleyrs@delphi.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1g.delphi.com
X-To: Gordon Freedman 

Gordon Freedman  writes:
 
>I will begin by saying that you provided no support for your assertion that
>individuals on alt.revisionism have called you evil.  Based on your mendacity,
 
Shein refered to me as evil, McCarthy used the term about Faurisson. Ask em.
 
>You have also, on numerous occasions, sadistically made jokes about the pain
>and suffering of innocent civilians during World War II.  These actions may have
 
Not true. Where?


Article 17247 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Is the Holocaust a Religion?
In-Reply-To: Bradley R. Smith's message of Fri, 7 Oct 94 22:32:39 -0500
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  <36l88e$2h8@newsbf01.news.aol.com>
	 <5y2Upgv.bradleyrs@delphi.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Oct 1994 02:57:21 GMT
Lines: 52


From: Bradley R. Smith 
>Several million persons in North America either disbelieve the orthodox
>Holocaust story or have serious doubts about it. There are tens of millions in
>the rest of the world who disbelieve or doubt it.

How Mr Smith might know this we can only guess.

Let's see, North America: US, Canada, Mexico, that's about 400 million
people. So less than 1% might be wrong on a particular historical
fact?

Well, I suppose it's possible.

You could probably find that many people who would get wrong the
answer to the question ``does the sun rise in the east or the west''.

But it would hardly change the facts.

Mr Smith tips his hand here. Having despaired on the facts, which show
him to be plainly wrong, he is focusing on the possibility that a
percent or two of a huge population might be duped.

>It would be interesting for you to attempt to demonstrate that none are
>adults -- they must all be children, eh Barry?

Well, who knows how many children you count among your supporters
above. Given the standards you've displayed thus far there's no reason
to believe you wouldn't include two year olds.

We've already seen your proclivity for young college students and
abhorrence of adults with any real knowledge on the subject.

You regularly try to tell us you know far better what went on at these
death camps than people who were actually there. Including Nazi
officers who wrote each other memos detailing exactly what you attempt
to deny happened.

I maintain you are a charlatan and you know it.

So once again, if all this evidence is forged and a hoax WHO
masterminded this hoax?

And, once again, Mr Smith will ignore the question or perhaps give
what he believes to be a "clever" but evasive answer involving the
lambada or some such silliness.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 17248 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Is the Holocaust a Religion?
In-Reply-To: Bradley R. Smith's message of Fri, 7 Oct 94 22:45:22 -0500
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  <36l88e$2h8@newsbf01.news.aol.com>
	 
	<3709ef$83t@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> 
Date: Sat, 8 Oct 1994 03:09:44 GMT
Lines: 55


From: Bradley R. Smith 
>By the way, Russiand taxi drivers are telling people today it was "12,000"
>that were buried at Babi Yar. Maybe we'll find out pretty soon there were
>a few hundred people killed in the fighting for Kiev from all reasons,
>some fraction of which were Jews.

And maybe pigs will fly.

The Einsatzgruppen documented what they did at Babi Yar and the
documents survive.

You'd try to lay doubt that the earth was round if it suited your
purposes, wouldn't you?

    Einsatzgruppe C
    Standort Kiev

    In collaboration with the group staff and two Kommandos of Police
    Regiment South, on 29 and 30 September 1941 Sonderkommando 4a executed
    33,771 Jews in Kiev.

	Ereignismeldung UdSSR, No. 101, 2 October 1941

>In any event, when a man can commit himself in writing to the proposition that
>Jewish cadavers can pump geysers of blood from the graves for months after
>they were buried -- Wiesel didn't say anything about these talented corpses
>waiting around for the Spring thaw -- then we have qwho is dedicated to
>something resembling, in his mind, a cult.

I think we all know why the word "cult" preys heavily on Mr Smith's
mind. Mr Smith once again tips his hand.

He also obviously doesn't know the first thing about decomposing
bodies and mass grave sites.

Or he hopes people who read his words don't.

Perhaps start by looking up the word "miasma".

There were actually quite rational reasons why people were horrified
by graveyards in the days previous to embalming and modern burial
methods. It wasn't simply their fear of the dead, strange things
happened in graveyards.

It doesn't take much knowledge of that subject to imagine what over
30,000 bodies in a shallow grave would result in.

Mr Smith, as usual, knows better...

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 17249 of alt.revisionism:
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From: quirke_a@ix.wcc.govt.nz
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faurisson vs. Berenbaum
Date: 8 Oct 1994 02:59:59 GMT
Organization: Wellington City Council, Public Access
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <3751vf$vj@golem.wcc.govt.nz>
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Reply-To: quirke_a@ix.wcc.govt.nz
NNTP-Posting-Host: ix.wcc.govt.nz

codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:

>I'm not the only one.  Wayne McGuire, who says he believes in the Holocaust 
>story, expressed surprise too.

   Wayne McGuire, whatever he's said about the Holocaust, has displayed
an agenda consisting of an obsession with Israel, chiding people for
arguing against Holocaust Revisionism, and a noticable bias towards the
Revisionists when denouncing people for their language.

   I don't give a shit whether he believes nearly 12 million civilians
were deliberately murdered by a Nazi-led Germany or not. IMHO, he's
just another obsessive crank with an agenda.

- Tony Q.
---
Tony Quirke, Wellington, New Zealand (email for phone no)
 "In this proud land we grew up strong / we were wanted all along.
 "I was taught to fight, taught to win / I never thought I could fail..."
        - Peter Gabriel


Article 17259 of alt.revisionism:
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From: quirke_a@ix.wcc.govt.nz
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Marxist Holocaust Denial
Date: 8 Oct 1994 05:40:40 GMT
Organization: Wellington City Council, Public Access
Lines: 70
Message-ID: <375bco$4ji@golem.wcc.govt.nz>
References:   ,<1994Oct4.163136.30565@miavx1>
Reply-To: quirke_a@ix.wcc.govt.nz
NNTP-Posting-Host: ix.wcc.govt.nz

bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov) writes:
> wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) writes:

>> How stupid can you get? How many more tens of millions of lives
>> would you have to take before the truth sank in that Marxism
>> doesn't work in the real world and ruins everything it touches?

>        Who here sings the prasies of Marx?

   Why Brian, I surprised you have to ask !

   Communism killed many people. Ergo, Communism is Bad.
   Naziism opposed Communism. Ergo Naziism is Good.
   People say Naziism killed many people.
   People therefore imply Naziism is Bad.
   Naziism is Good. People should not imply Naziism is Bad.
   Go away, People. Go do something about Bosnia instead.

   But, wait, there's *more*:

   Communism was Bad.
   Several Jews were Communists. Ergo Jewry as a whole is responsible
for Communism. Ergo Jewry is Bad.
   Naziism opposed Jews *because* they were Bad. Ergo Naziism was Good.
   Jews are Bad. Ergo they oppose the Good. Ergo they warred on Germany.
Ergo Germany was defending itself against the Jews.
   Concentration camps were to defend Germany. Ergo concentration camps
are Good.
   Germany ran concentration camps because it was Good.
   Extermination camps are Bad. Germany is Good. Ergo Germany did not
run any extermination camps.
   People must be made to  see Germany did not run extermination camps. If 
Certain People keep bringing up facts in a free-formatted discussion, they
will not be made to see this. Ergo, Certain People must not be allowed
to bring up facts in a free-formatted discussion.
   You are anarchistic, People. Let me set down the guidelines for debate
as I see best.

   Ah, but lets go on a little more:

   People must be made to see Communism is Bad.
   That which opposes Communism is Good. Obsessive Right-wing ideals and
groups oppose Communism. Ergo, obsessive Right-wing ideals and groups
are Good.
   People must be made to see that obsessive Right-wing ideals and groups
are Good.
   Naziism is an example of an obsessive Right-wing ideal and group.
People see Naziism as Bad.
   Ergo People must either be made to see Naziism as Good, or People
must be made to see Naziism as an example of an obsessive Right-wing
ideal and group.
   Ergo I will either say Naziism is Good ("We are defending the Aryan
peoples !"), or I will say obsessive Right-wing ideals and groups have
no similarities to Naziism ("I am not a Nazi. None the less, I don't
like these people lying about the Holocaust, I don't like the Jewish
Conspiracy spreading this story, and I think you're Israeli agents !")
   Certain People say Naziism is Bad. Ergo these People are part of
the Jewish Conspiracy.
   Where did Certain People get their funding ? Can They prove it ?
   They oppose Naziism. Ergo They are Bad. Ergo They are Communists and/or
Jews. Ergo they must agree with every word Marx ever wrote.

   Logical, isn't it ?

- Tony Q.
---
Tony Quirke, Wellington, New Zealand (email for phone no)
 "In this proud land we grew up strong / we were wanted all along.
 "I was taught to fight, taught to win / I never thought I could fail..."
        - Peter Gabriel


Article 17261 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: The Beate Klarsfeld Foundation
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <-54bk0yNU68E069yn@world.std.com>  
Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 23:49:02 GMT
Lines: 9

The NYT sure picked just the right guy to do a review of Bacque's book, 
Stephen Ambrose is the official Eisenhower biographer, He's written at 
great length about what a great guy Ike is. But somehow Ambrose managed to 
completely  miss a major event, the maltreatment of German POWs after the 
war, which Eisenhower was responsible for. Ambroses's reputation was on the 
line.  Put yourself in his boots.


               Ross Vicksell


Article 17262 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: World War II: The Myth of the Twentieth Century
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <009855AF.33CB02C0.1@umbsky.cc.umb.edu>  <36u5u8$k20@agate.berkeley.edu>  <36v6fj$4j9@agate.berkeley.edu>
Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 23:55:29 GMT
Lines: 19

Richard Schultz (schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu) wrote:
: In article ,
: Ross Vicksell  wrote:

: >The more I think about it the more I'm forced to consider the possibility 
: >that the Arizona was scuttled by the Americans to keep it from falling into 
: >Japanese hands when they bought Hawaii.

: I take it then that you agree that there really isn't any solid 
: evidence that the so-called "World War II" actually occurred?

: 				Richard Schultz

Quien Sabe?

: "It is terrible to die of thirst in the ocean.  Do you have to salt your
: truth so heavily that it does not even quench thirst any more?"
  
             Ross Vicksell


Article 17265 of alt.revisionism:
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From: annya666@aol.com (AnnyA666)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Response to Smith (was: Re: Revisionism and Hitler)
Date: 8 Oct 1994 13:23:06 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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References: 
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In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
Vicksell) writes in response to my note:

: I find this really amazing...PUBLICISTS!  Since when does 'history' need
a
: publicist! 

>>When your bucking the establishment, your stoff will never receive any 
>>notice by the masses until you publicize and popularize it.  Look at
what 
>>the movie "JFK" accomplished.

: What an appalling designation.  If your theories are correct
: and properly presented you should have no need for a publicist!  

>>Should but not would.  Nobody would ever hear about revisionism.  

Not to beat a dead horse, here, Codfish, but a valid theory does not
require a publicity compaign.  Stone's move JFK is a particularly bad
example for your argument.  The movie was made BECAUSE so many people
found merit in the theory, not  IN SPITE of that.   The media LOVES to
find a situation where a previously accepted fact is proven wrong...If
your argument had merit they would be breaking down your E-mail door to
get more information.  The fact that you are forced to stage publiciity
stunts and take out paid advertising should tell you something.

It seems like you're more interesting in preserving your image as a
counter-culture hero than researching the truth.  That kind of nuerotic
anti-social self-identity crisis  is more often found in adolescents. 
You're getting a bit long in the tooth for that, don't you think? 


Article 17272 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Is the Holocaust a Religion?
Date: 8 Oct 1994 19:11:44 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <376qtg$9ug@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References:   <3709ef$83t@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

Bradley R. Smith   wrote:
# Danny Keren  writes:

## It seems some strange things can happen if 33,000 people are buried
## in the same place (as was in Babi-Yar, to which the testimony
## refers). I posted the following a few times:
  
# When Elie Wiesel wrote about this he didn't say 33,000 dead:  he 
# said "some say 135,000" and that others say "175,000."

I was talking about a single massacre, that took two days. Maybe
he's talking about the total number of Jews killed in the
Ukraine by the Nazi occupying forces.

## In March, 1942, Albert Hartel, a Gestapo expert on church affairs, 
## was driving with Blobel towards a country villa outside Kiev used by
## Major-General Thomas, the Security Police Commander. At the Babi
## Yar ravine Hartel noticed small explosions which threw up columns of
## earth.  It was the thaw, releasing the gases from thousands of
## bodies, and Blobel explained: 'Here my Jews are buried.'

# Reitlinger didn't say Blobel said "Here my Jews are buried."  He 
# said Hartel said Blobel said it.

Hartel saw it. But this is really stupid. Can Smith prove
Hartel lied? 

# Easy for Hartel to say.

And what is this supposed to mean? Can Smith prove Hartel was
lying?

## So, perhaps "geysers of Jewish blood" is less accurate than "columns
## of earth mixed with blood". Do you have any evidence that, when such
## a huge number of corpses are packed in a grave, the combined effect
## of the gases released from them might not generate such phenomena?
  
# It's not a matter of being less accurate. It's a matter of being 
# two different tthings.

Not very different. I guess Hartel's description is more accurate.

# By the way, Russiand taxi drivers are telling people today it 
# was "12,000" that were buried at Babi Yar. 

This is truly incredible. You always think you heard it all, and
then some "revisionist scholar" manages to post something which
sets a new record of stupidity.

"Russian taxi drivers"? Who? When? Where? How many? To who?
Were they recorded? 

Is this supposed to be some new standard for historical truth?
What some mysterious Russian taxi driver said?
  

-Danny Keren.




Article 17277 of alt.revisionism:
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From: golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Beate Klarsfeld Foundation
Date: Sat, 08 Oct 1994 17:30:08 -0600
Organization: MCSNet Services
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References: <-54bk0yNU68E069yn@world.std.com>   
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In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
Vicksell) wrote:

> The NYT sure picked just the right guy to do a review of Bacque's book, 
> Stephen Ambrose is the official Eisenhower biographer, He's written at 
> great length about what a great guy Ike is. But somehow Ambrose managed to 
> completely  miss a major event, the maltreatment of German POWs after the 
> war, which Eisenhower was responsible for. Ambroses's reputation was on the 
> line.  Put yourself in his boots.

Right, Ross.  And Eisenhower's biographer said, as part of his review,
that Bacque had indeed turned up some disturbing facts about the American
mistreatment of German soldiers, and that such mistreatment deserves
investigation.

However, as Eisenhower's biographer, he clearly had access to a
considerable wealth of information about Eisenhower, all of which (or, if
you wish to discount Ambrose's characterization out of bias, most of
which) contradicts the picture of a venal, evil man painted by Bacque. 
Bacque, so it seems, did no research into Eisenhower whatsoever before
indicting him for the mass murder of German POWs.  He also got most of his
other significant facts wrong (food shortages, for instance).

But most importantly, Ross, you have neglected that it wasn't just Ambrose
who tore Bacque's assertions down; it was an entire conference of
historians.  Surely not *all* of them had reputations that depended on
Eisenhower's saintliness, as you imply Ambrose's did.

By the way, have you read Ambrose's bio of Eisenhower?  Do you know for a
fact that Ambrose is merely an Ike cheerleader?  Or are you just assuming
that, if he wrote the bio and excoriated Bacque's (lack of) research, then
he must be?

Oh, but I forgot: you're not interested in actually learning anything or
finding out thetruth about anything.  You just want to stir up trouble in
the hopes that the confusion you cause will advance your agenda, right?

-- 
D. J. Schaeffer |       The Todal looks like a blob of glup.
golux@mcs.com   |     It makes a sound like rabbits screaming,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^        and smells of old, unopened rooms.
                            -- Thurber, _The 13 Clocks_


Article 17291 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access3.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Response to Smith (was: Re: Revisionism and Hitler)
Date: 9 Oct 1994 01:15:07 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 30
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References:  <370v4l$3kg@newsbf01.news.aol.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access3.digex.net

In article ,
Ross Vicksell  wrote:
>AnnyA666 (annya666@aol.com) wrote:
>: In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
>: Vicksell) writes:
>
>: >Bradley has told the world again and again that he does not profess to be
>: >a "revisionist scholar."  He and I are publicists, not scholars. 
>
>: I find this really amazing...PUBLICISTS!  Since when does 'history' need a
>: publicist! 
>
>When your bucking the establishment, your stoff will never receive any 
>notice by the masses until you publicize and popularize it.  Look at what 
>the movie "JFK" accomplished.
>
>: What an appalling designation.  If your theories are correct
>: and properly presented you should have no need for a publicist!  
>
>Should but not would.  Nobody would ever hear about revisionism.  
>
>: I think I just lost the respect I had left for both of you...
>
>                Ross Vicksell


-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 17292 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access3.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Public acceptance of revisionism
Date: 9 Oct 1994 01:19:35 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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References:  <370v4l$3kg@newsbf01.news.aol.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access3.digex.net

In article ,
Ross Vicksell  wrote:
>When your bucking the establishment, your stoff will never receive any 
>notice by the masses until you publicize and popularize it.  Look at what 
>the movie "JFK" accomplished.

    And your stuff will never receive any acceptance by anyone if you 
keep on using distortion and half-truth to make your case.  (Refer to my 
previously-posted list of "for instances" for a bill of particulars, 
where I suggested to Bradley Smith if revisionism wants to "clean up" the 
Holocaust story, it needs to clean up its own act first - how can you 
clean something with a muddy rag?)

    Anything you can prove honestly, you are more than welcome to debunk. 
But as Wayne McGuire keeps pointing out (to anti-revisionists, but not to 
revisionists) when you tell so many lies and half-truths for so long, how 
can you expect people to believe you when you happen to be telling the 
truth about something?  Only people who haven't seen the lies before 
might be taken in.

    (That's one of the reasons I'm here.  The other is that, well, yeah,
it's fun in a strange sort of way.)
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 17293 of alt.revisionism:
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Beate Klarsfeld Foundation
Message-ID: <1994Oct9.011905.30906@miavx1>
From: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov)
Date: 9 Oct 94 01:19:05 -0500
References: <-54bk0yNU68E069yn@world.std.com>  
Organization: Miami University
Lines: 47

In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:
> The NYT sure picked just the right guy to do a review of Bacque's book, 
> Stephen Ambrose is the official Eisenhower biographer, He's written at 
> great length about what a great guy Ike is. But somehow Ambrose managed to 
> completely  miss a major event, the maltreatment of German POWs after the 
                                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^     
> war, which Eisenhower was responsible for. Ambroses's reputation was on the 
> line.  Put yourself in his boots.
> 
>                Ross Vicksell

eh?  Have you gotten bad case of that Raven Myopia?  

let me quote:
--------
 Our first conclusion was that Mr. Bacque had made a major      
   historical discovery. There _was_ wdiespread mistreatment of German
   prisoners in the spring and summer of 1945. Men were beaten, denied
   water, forced to live in open camps without shelter, given
   inadequate food rations and inadequate medical care. Their mail was
   withheld. In some cases prisoners made a "soup" of water and grass
   in order to deal with their hunder. Men did die needlessly and
   inexcusably. This must be confronted, and it is to Mr. Bacque's
   credit that he forces us to do so.
--------

and again, near the end of Ambrose's review:

---------
Nevertheless, Mr. Bacque makes a point that is irrefutable: some
   American G.I.'s and their officers were capable of acting in almost
   as brutal a manner as the Nazis. We did not have a monopoly on
   virtue. He has challenged us to reopen the question, to do the
   research required, to get at the full truth. For that contribution,
   he deserves thanks. But as to how he presented his discovery, I
   .......
--------

Something about those two paragraphs that you don't understand?

emailed to Mr. Vicksell.
-- 
=======================================================================
Brian Harmon           "How much trouble could a couple of 
Miami University	  scientists get into anyway?"
Oxford, Ohio 45056  		-- Marc Singer, _Dead Space_
--------------bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu--------------------------


Article 17296 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access3.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Is the Holocaust a Religion?
Date: 9 Oct 1994 01:47:32 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <37805k$c0e@access3.digex.net>
References:   <3709ef$83t@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access3.digex.net

In article ,
Bradley R. Smith   wrote:
>Reitlinger didn't say Blobel said "Here my Jews are buried."  He said Hartel
>saisaid Blobel said it.
> 
>Easy for Hartel to say.

>By the way, Russiand taxi drivers are telling people today it was "12,000"
>that were buried at Babi Yar.

    Easy for Russian taxi drivers to say.


>Maybe we'll find out pretty soon there were
>a few hundred people killed in the fighting for Kiev from all reasons,
>some fraction of which were Jews.

    Easy for you to say.

    Maybe WWII didn't happen at all.  What's your best evidence that it
did?  Are you aware that your friend Greg Raven was completely unable to 
answer that question?

>In any event, when a man can commit himself in writing to the proposition that
>Jewish cadavers can pump geysers of blood from the graves for months after
>they were buried -- Wiesel didn't say anything about these talented corpses
>waiting around for the Spring thaw -- then we have qwho is dedicated to
>something resembling, in his mind, a cult.

    Wiesel didn't say there were geysers of blood.  He said eyewitnesses
said it.  Are you saying Wiesel was lying, that nobody in fact said such a
thing?

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 17299 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: "Material for resettlement of the Jews"
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <366hls$qli@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>    <36vuva$dan@access1.digex.net>
Date: Sun, 9 Oct 1994 03:22:19 GMT
Lines: 41

Michael P. Stein (mstein@access1.digex.net) wrote:
: In article ,
: Jamie McCarthy  wrote:
: >Second -- the question is, why did they dynamite the morgues and not
: >the other rooms in each Krema?
: >
: >This fallacy was also seen in Gannon's attempts to explain why the
: >Zyklon-B was referred to as "material for the resettlement of the
: >Jews."  He opined that the Jews were being "resettled" in Auschwitz,
: >and that the Zyklon-B was used to kill lice and thus was material
: >for their resettlement.
: >
: >But the question is:  why was only Zyklon-B described that way, and
: >not, for example, the lumber used to build the barracks?  That would
: >also then be "material for the resettlement of the Jews."  So would
: >the barbed wire surrounding the camp.  So would the soup.  But of
: >all those things, only Zyklon-B was thus described.  So Mr. Gannon
: >didn't answer the question.

:     There is a much more interesting question to be asked here.

:     Auschwitz I was a labor camp which had not only Jews but Poles,
: political prisoners, and ordinary criminals.  Typhus was a danger to all
: inmates.

:     Yet the Zyklon was described as "material for the resettlement of the
: Jews," leaving out the other people who would be protected by it - 
: assuming, of course, that the Zyklon really *was* for delousing.

:     Could it be, perhaps, that it wasn't really for delousing?

Jean Claude Pressac says most of it was used for delousing, I'm told.


: -- 
: Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
: POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
: Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


               Ross Vicksell


Article 17303 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What Bradley Smith finds funny
Date: 9 Oct 1994 03:22:19 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 273
Message-ID: <3785nb$d3g@access1.digex.net>
References:  <36l88e$2h8@newsbf01.news.aol.com> <373tq0$pqt@picard.mitel.com> <50wWhEh.bradleyrs@delphi.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <50wWhEh.bradleyrs@delphi.com>,
Bradley R. Smith   wrote:
>Gordon Freedman  writes:
>>You have also, on numerous occasions, sadistically made jokes about the 
>>pain and suffering of innocent civilians during World War II.  These 
>>actions may have
>
>Not true. Where?

    How quickly they forget.

-------  begin quoted articles ---------------------------------------

From bradleyrs@aol.com Thu Sep 22 02:31:03 EDT 1994
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Revisionist Theory
Message-ID: <35lhha$6rk@newsbf01.news.aol.com>

[...] they concentrate on the sado-masochistic fantasies of a couple
handfuls of "eyewitness" testimony that in addtion to being s/m is
oftentimes brutally comic (see the testimonies of Mueller, Wiernik,
Wiesel, Mermelstein, Wiesenthal, Vrba, etc., etc.

Talk about laughing .... Anyone of them could do a stand-up routine that
would bring the house down.


From bradleyrs@aol.com Mon Sep 26 12:05:09 EDT 1994
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: FILIP MUELLER "TESTIFIES" ON AUSCHWITZ  [2/2]
Message-ID: <365j79$m1e@newsbf01.news.aol.com>

Keren believes Muller's testimony in Shoah is "rather accurate:"  Maybe it
is. On the other hand, who's going to trust a man who "testifies" that he
watched a bucket of human flesh "jump about" on a crematory floor?

Longshoreman and other workers laugh at that kind of stuff and are
contemputous of the professors who would have them believe it.  

I'd love to watch Danny Keren down on the waterfront trying to convince
the workers there that he can make a bucket of flesh dance the samba for
them. 

On the other hand, the Filip Muellers and Danny Kerens appear to be meant
for each other. They represent two generations of a sado-masochistic cult
that is growing ever more ludicrous in the eyes of the people,
particularly among working men and women.

[...]

From bradleyrs@delphi.com Sun Oct  2 03:33:31 EDT 1994
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Elie Wiesel on Babi Yar
Date: Sun, 2 Oct 94 01:10:38 -0500
Message-ID: 

For those of you who have had enough of Filip "Jumping-Buckets-
of-Flesh" Mueller I give you:
 
Elie "Geysers-of-Blood" Wiesel.
 
Elie reports that after the fighting at Kiev that a mass-killing of Jews took
place in the Babi Yar ravine and that:
 
"Eyewitnesses say that for months after the killings the ground continued to
spspurt geysers of blood."
 
For months afterwards?  For a week maybe?  Overnight?  Maybe no geysers at all?
What would that suggest about our Holocaust survivor extraordinaire?  Our
Nobel Peace Prize recipient, author, and "spokesman for Jews in the United
States and throughout the world?"
 
As I wrote years ago, maybe it suggests he's not wrapped too tight. It also
suggests a few things about how our media and academics respond to "surivivors"
who appear to be in need of deep therapy and a little straightforward
skepticism.
 
When you're a spokesman for something that resembles a growth cult, however,
it's considered poor form to question you about your beliefs.  Who questions
the Pope about the Virgin Birth? Bad, bad manners.
 
Meanwhile, my apologies to those who have already seen this infor posted in the
past, but maybe I'm developing a theme here.  It's the
sort of thing we workers find comic.


----------------  end quoted text  ----------------------------


    Obviously, buckets don't levitate from the floor.

    And obviously, liquid blood doesn't literally spurt from the ground 
like Old Faithful.

    But what *does* happen is that people see things - shocking, 
horrible things - and they describe them as best they can.  Sometimes 
the horror and raw emotion causes them to use strong imagery in their 
language - but you find a strong core of truth in what they say if 
you stop to analyze it slowly and honestly. 

    Bradley Smith talks about the psychology of Daniel Keren, but if he 
really knew anything about the subject he'd understand the psychology of 
people thrown into horrible situations seeing things no decent person 
should ever be forced to see - things that take both a strong stomach 
and a strong mind in order to keep both your lunch and your sanity.  

    In fact, even the text that follows is not pleasant, and those who 
get easily squeamish might not want to read this right around mealtime.


    The underlying scientific basis for the "geysers of blood" has 
been previously explained here.  The gas generated by decomposing bodies 
finally manages to break out from the ground rather suddenly when the 
spring thaw comes.  And so bits of dirt (and bits of bodies, because the 
gas is exploding out of the torsos) get thrown up into the air from the 
shallow graves as the frost recedes and the pressure from the gas is 
finally stronger than the softening ground above it. 

    And if you're a simple workingman seeing such a bizarre and
frightening sight, not understanding exactly what's happening, you might -
just might - get a note of panic and terror in your voice, and tell people
you've seen "geysers of blood." 

    You see, Mr. Smith *thinks* he's laughing at Elie Wiesel.  But 
Wiesel never said he saw "geysers of blood."  All Wiesel is doing is 
reporting what some simple workingmen and peasants said when they saw 
things they weren't equipped to handle and didn't fully understand.  So 
Bradley Smith is really laughing at his fellow simple workingmen who 
reacted with horror at bits of flesh and blood-soaked dirt and organs 
thrown up in the air by escaping gas, and described what they witnessed 
as "geysers of blood." 

    But - and I say this in all sincerity - I'm really glad that Mr. 
Smith himself was never forced to see such things.  Nobody should have 
to see such things.


    Bradley Smith, comfy in his safe longshoreman's easy chair with a 
longshoreman's beer in his hand with his longshoreman drinking buddies, 
reads the words of Filip Mu"ller literally, and they all laugh at the 
idea of a bucket scampering about the room doing the latest dance craze.

    I've must admit, if I didn't understand all the things that I do, 
I'd probably laugh too. 

    But I wonder what Bradley Smith would say if I suddenly showed up 
with a bunch of very humorless soldiers with guns, and took him from his 
nice safe comfy longshoreman's easy chair, and stuffed him in a railway 
car with a hundred other people like cattle, and then took him without 
warning to a morgue - a kind of place he'd never seen in his life, a 
kind of place where from time even medical students who think they know 
what to expect nevertheless go green and puke when exposed to the messy 
reality. 

    And in that morgue, limbs are suddenly severed and yet still 
occasionally twitch.  This is something that biology lab students can 
tell you happens, something farm kids who have seen chickens decapitated 
can tell you happens.  (Where do you think the expression, "Running 
around like a chicken with its head cut off" comes from?)  But maybe
Filip Mu"ller (and Bradley Smith, for that matter) had never seen that 
happen before, had never even *heard* of that happening before. 

    And one time when that twitching limb is in a bucket, and hits the
side of the bucket, and it rocks or slides a little - well, if you're not
prepared for that, have never seen or heard of anything like it, so you're
suddenly confronted with something that looks like it's straight out of a
Clive Barker horror novel - well, I think it might make a really strong
impression on your mind.  So strong that the shock comes through in your
description, and you say that the bucket "jumped." 


    Mr. Smith, that's psychology.  Sure, it's not literal.  But it's the 
way things can happen.  Can you stop laughing and put down your 
longshoreman's beer for just a minute and at least attempt to imagine 
how you might react if you personally were suddenly placed in that 
horrible position yourself, instead of hearing it with your drinking 
buddies when you're nice and safe? 

    Maybe you know that a severed limb *can* twitch, but think that this 
still couldn't possibly make the bucket move.  Dan Gannon would have us
believe that the laws of physics make it impossible.  Well, of course it 
can't completely leave the ground, but I just tried a little physics 
experiment right here at my computer.  You can try this one at home. 

    Here's how I do it.  I put my feet up off the floor on the bar 
between the two front chair legs.  The chair is on a vinyl floor 
surface; it has rubber feet, not wheels, so there's a fair amount of 
friction - more, I think, than there would be with a metal bucket on a 
concrete floor.  I sit back in the chair and jab my elbow into the back 
of the chair moderately hard. 

    The chair slides backwards.  It moves.  Maybe a quarter or a half an 
inch, sure - but still, it moves.  (Galileo said the same thing once.)

    Are you laughing?  You don't believe me?  Try it yourself.  Go on.  
I'll wait.

    You hear the words "jumping buckets" and all you look at is the 
simple literal interpretation.  And so, simple workingman that you are, 
you laugh at something that you *know* can't *possibly* be true.

    Well, I guess I can sort of understand that.  Me, though, I'm *not* a
simple workingman.  I've read a lot, I've seen a lot, I've heard of lots
of things that at first glance don't seem like they could possibly be true
but still turn out to be true. 

    So I've learned not to laugh right away.  I try to look a little
deeper.  I look not only at how things could be literally true, but how it
could be *essentially* true.  A severed limb can twitch.  Your simple
workingman on a poultry farm can tell you that - even though he may
still think it looks funny (well, it's only a chicken, after all), he
knows it's true.  And you can prove to yourself that a sharp twitch against
the back of your chair can make your chair move even though you're not
touching anything but the chair.  A bucket would obey the same laws of
physics.  So it *can* move. 

    Now, of course I wasn't there with Filip Mu"ller, nor were you, nor
was a movie camera.  So I can't *prove* to you that Mu"ller ever saw a
twitching severed limb, or that if there was one, it twitched enough to
make the bucket move even a millimeter.  And so it's possible Mu"ller is
lying - I'm perfectly willing to admit that I can't *prove* this specific
story. 

    But Mr. Smith, since you weren't there either, are you equally
prepared to admit that the scenario I described above *could* have
happened?  That Mu"ller saw a truly nightmarish sight and reacted
emotionally and that that strong emotion came out in the language he used
to describe the scene? 

    Mr. Smith, from some of your writing I get the feeling you like old
folk sayings.  Well, here's one for you: never judge a man until you've
walked a mile in his shoes. 

    I'd like you to imagine that you are suddenly pulled out of your easy
chair and thrust without warning into a living B-movie horror show where
one day you see a severed limb - and this time it's not a chicken, but
part of what just a few minutes ago was a *living human being* - flex and
hit the side of a bucket, and rock it or slide it half an inch or so. 

    Now, can you swear to me - honestly - that in such a startling
situation you can be completely confident there's absolutely no way there
could be any exaggeration in your description of the scene due to the
powerful shock you might have just received? 

    I know it sounds sick and disgusting and you wish that it would  
just be some sadomasochistic dream.  Do you know, I wish the same 
thing?  That we lived in a world where truly horrible things never 
happened, no Stalins, no Hitlers, no Pol Pots, and (on a smaller scale) 
no Jeffrey Dahmers, no John Wayne Gacys, no Ted Bundys?  You have no idea 
how much I wish I could confidently say to someone who tells me about 
such things that they were hallucinating, maybe had too much pepperoni 
pizza with jalapenos before going to bed.

    Unfortunately, I can't dismiss things this way.

    As unpleasant as it is, Bradley, try to think about the possibility. 
*Could* things have happened with Filip Mu"ller the way I describe them? 
I'm not asking you if you believe what Mu"ller says about the bucket is
absolutely proven; I agree it's not. I'm just asking: is it *possible*? 

    And if it's *possible* - knowing that he *might* have experienced 
such horror, can you continue to laugh at the man simply because he 
used language which was colorful to describe what might have been the 
most terrifying thing he'd seen in his life to that point?

    All I ask is that you just think about the possibilities here.  Try, 
in your mind, to walk a mile or even just across the floor of that morgue in 
Filip Mu"ller's shoes.  Let me know what you come up with.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 17305 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: "Material for resettlement of the Jews"
Supersedes: <3787h1$dv1@access1.digex.net>
Date: 9 Oct 1994 03:56:26 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <3787na$e0n@access1.digex.net>
References: <366hls$qli@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>  <36vuva$dan@access1.digex.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article ,
Ross Vicksell  wrote:
>
>:     Could it be, perhaps, that it wasn't really for delousing?
>
>Jean Claude Pressac says most of it was used for delousing, I'm told.

    That's true.  So what?  Most knives are used for cutting food in the 
kitchen.  Are you trying to tell me this means Nicole Simpson couldn't 
have been stabbed to death?

    It still doesn't explain why, if it was for delousing, and for the 
protection of ALL people at the camp, this particular shipment was marked 
only for a Jewish purpose.

    You still haven't answered my request that you prove that the
Berenbaum-Faurisson conversation went the way you said it did.  All you 
had was your worthless eyewitness testimony.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 17306 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Material for resettlement of the Jews"
Date: 9 Oct 1994 08:55:12 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <378b5g$8te@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
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Also, one of the travel authorizations to bring Zyklon-B to
Auschwitz describes it as "material for special treatment".

Everyone who read a little about the SS and the SD knows very
well that "special treatment" is a common codeword for murder;
here's just one example.

Memorandum of Gestapo Headquarters, 15 June 1944
[Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals - 
Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953, Vol. IV, p. 1166]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
In amending my directive of June 20 1944, I request that those people
subject to special treatment be sent to a crematorium to be cremated
if possible.



If this shipment of Zyklon was going to be used for delousing,
why on earth call it "material for special treatment"? Why not
simply "material for delousing", "material for fumigation", etc?

Probably Gannon will respond to this by posting his usual garbage
about Kaltenbrunner saying that, in one case, "special treatment"
really meant good treatment of some French officials. This has
nothing to do with Zyklon-B. Gannon, of course, cannot explain
why the Zyklon wasn't described as "material for fumigation", etc;
he just keeps quoting Kaltenbrunner's completely irrelevant
testimony.


-Danny Keren.


Article 17307 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Response to Smith (was: Re: Revisionism and Hitler)
Date: 6 Oct 1994 17:27 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
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Distribution: world
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <370v4l$3kg@newsbf01.news.aol.com>, annya666@aol.com (AnnyA666) writes...
>In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
>Vicksell) writes:
> 
>>Bradley has told the world again and again that he does not profess to be
>>a "revisionist scholar."  He and I are publicists, not scholars. 
> 
>I find this really amazing...PUBLICISTS!  Since when does 'history' need a
>publicist! What an appalling designation.  If your theories are correct
>and properly presented you should have no need for a publicist!  I think I
>just lost the respect I had left for both of you...

    On the contrary, I have gained respect.  Ross is laying his cards on
    the table and calling a spade a spade.  Ross is (and I strongly suspect
    B Smith and Raven are as well) a publicist for a specific political
    agenda (not history, as you suggest.)  And what is a publicist?  In the
    40s or 50s we might have called him a "propogandist".  In the 90s the
    preferred term is "spin doctor".  Just as James Carville and Mary
    Matelin spin actual events to make them fit their own political agendas
    (in which they strongly believe), Vicksell, B Smith and Raven
    are doing the same for their own agenda.  This is not history, this is
    politics.

    And, well, there is no debate about the holocaust because these people
    aren't really interested in debate.  They certainly aren't interested
    in truth.  They are simply interested in spinning a story to best
    serve their own political agenda.

    It is nice of Ross to come out of the closet.

===========================================================================
daniel david mittleman     -     danny@arizona.edu     -     (602) 621-2932


Article 17316 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What Bradley Smith finds funny
Supersedes: <3785nb$d3g@access1.digex.net>
Date: 9 Oct 1994 12:57:49 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 293
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NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <50wWhEh.bradleyrs@delphi.com>,
Bradley R. Smith   wrote:
>Gordon Freedman  writes:
>>You have also, on numerous occasions, sadistically made jokes about the 
>>pain and suffering of innocent civilians during World War II.  These 
>>actions may have
>
>Not true. Where?

    How quickly they forget.

-------  begin quoted articles ---------------------------------------

From bradleyrs@aol.com Thu Sep 22 02:31:03 EDT 1994
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Revisionist Theory
Message-ID: <35lhha$6rk@newsbf01.news.aol.com>

[...] they concentrate on the sado-masochistic fantasies of a couple
handfuls of "eyewitness" testimony that in addtion to being s/m is
oftentimes brutally comic (see the testimonies of Mueller, Wiernik,
Wiesel, Mermelstein, Wiesenthal, Vrba, etc., etc.

Talk about laughing .... Anyone of them could do a stand-up routine that
would bring the house down.


From bradleyrs@aol.com Mon Sep 26 12:05:09 EDT 1994
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: FILIP MUELLER "TESTIFIES" ON AUSCHWITZ  [2/2]
Message-ID: <365j79$m1e@newsbf01.news.aol.com>

Keren believes Muller's testimony in Shoah is "rather accurate:"  Maybe it
is. On the other hand, who's going to trust a man who "testifies" that he
watched a bucket of human flesh "jump about" on a crematory floor?

Longshoreman and other workers laugh at that kind of stuff and are
contemputous of the professors who would have them believe it.  

I'd love to watch Danny Keren down on the waterfront trying to convince
the workers there that he can make a bucket of flesh dance the samba for
them. 

On the other hand, the Filip Muellers and Danny Kerens appear to be meant
for each other. They represent two generations of a sado-masochistic cult
that is growing ever more ludicrous in the eyes of the people,
particularly among working men and women.

[...]

From bradleyrs@delphi.com Sun Oct  2 03:33:31 EDT 1994
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Elie Wiesel on Babi Yar
Date: Sun, 2 Oct 94 01:10:38 -0500
Message-ID: 

For those of you who have had enough of Filip "Jumping-Buckets-
of-Flesh" Mueller I give you:
 
Elie "Geysers-of-Blood" Wiesel.
 
Elie reports that after the fighting at Kiev that a mass-killing of Jews took
place in the Babi Yar ravine and that:
 
"Eyewitnesses say that for months after the killings the ground continued to
spspurt geysers of blood."
 
For months afterwards?  For a week maybe?  Overnight?  Maybe no geysers at all?
What would that suggest about our Holocaust survivor extraordinaire?  Our
Nobel Peace Prize recipient, author, and "spokesman for Jews in the United
States and throughout the world?"
 
As I wrote years ago, maybe it suggests he's not wrapped too tight. It also
suggests a few things about how our media and academics respond to "surivivors"
who appear to be in need of deep therapy and a little straightforward
skepticism.
 
When you're a spokesman for something that resembles a growth cult, however,
it's considered poor form to question you about your beliefs.  Who questions
the Pope about the Virgin Birth? Bad, bad manners.
 
Meanwhile, my apologies to those who have already seen this infor posted in the
past, but maybe I'm developing a theme here.  It's the
sort of thing we workers find comic.


----------------  end quoted text  ----------------------------


    Obviously, buckets don't levitate from the floor.

    And obviously, liquid blood doesn't literally spurt from the ground 
like Old Faithful.

    But what *does* happen is that people see things - shocking, 
horrible things - and they describe them as best they can.  Sometimes 
the horror and raw emotion causes them to use strong imagery in their 
language - but you find a strong core of truth in what they say if 
you stop to analyze it slowly and honestly. 

    Bradley Smith talks about the psychology of Daniel Keren, but if he 
really knew anything about the subject he'd understand the psychology of 
people thrown into horrible situations seeing things no decent person 
should ever be forced to see - things that take both a strong stomach 
and a strong mind in order to keep both your lunch and your sanity.  

    In fact, even the text that follows is not pleasant, and those who 
get easily squeamish might not want to read this right around mealtime.


    The underlying scientific basis for the "geysers of blood" has been
previously explained here.  The gas generated by decomposing bodies
finally manages to break out from the ground rather suddenly when the
spring thaw comes, or for that matter whenever the pressure from the gas
becomes great enough enough to break out.  And so bits of dirt (and bits
of bodies, because the gas is exploding out of the torsos) get thrown up
into the air from the shallow graves as the pressure from the gas is
finally stronger than the ground above it. 

    Or maybe it wasn't spring at all.  Maybe it was summer - something 
like this:

   "The people gassed here were simply buried in mass graves which had
   been dug near by.  When, in the summer of 1942, the hot sun began to
   burn, the corpses started to swell and the earth's crust to burst
   open.  A black, evil-smelling mass oozed out and polluted the
   ground-water in the vicinity."

    Is this something that tickles a workingman's funnybone?  (As you can
probably tell from the "gassing"  reference, that's not Babi Yar.  That's
Auschwitz.  From - guess who - Filip Mu"ller.)

    Not a geyser, exactly.  I think a "spring" of blood would be more
accurate.  Well, OK, maybe that black mass wasn't blood.  But if you saw
such a frightening thing, would you stop to take a sample back to the lab
for analysis? 

    If you're a simple workingman seeing such a bizarre and frightening
sight as one of the above, not understanding exactly what's happening, you
might - just might - get a note of panic and terror in your voice, and
tell people you've seen "geysers of blood." 

    You see, Mr. Smith *thinks* he's laughing at Elie Wiesel.  But Wiesel
never said he saw "geysers of blood."  All Wiesel is doing is reporting
what some simple workingmen and peasants said when they saw things they
weren't equipped to handle and didn't fully understand.  So Bradley Smith
is really laughing at his fellow simple workingmen who reacted with horror
at bits of flesh and blood-soaked dirt and organs thrown up in the air by
escaping gas, and described what they witnessed as "geysers of blood." 

    But - and I say this in all sincerity - I'm really glad that Mr. 
Smith himself was never forced to see such things.  Nobody should have 
to see such things.

    Just in passing, Mr. Smith - I'd like an exact source for that quote
from Elie Wiesel.


    Bradley Smith, comfy in his safe longshoreman's easy chair with a 
longshoreman's beer in his hand with his longshoreman drinking buddies, 
reads the words of Filip Mu"ller literally, and they all laugh at the 
idea of a bucket scampering about the room doing the latest dance craze.

    I've must admit, if I didn't understand all the things that I do, 
I'd probably laugh too. 

    But I wonder what Bradley Smith would say if I suddenly showed up 
with a bunch of very humorless soldiers with guns, and took him from his 
nice safe comfy longshoreman's easy chair, and stuffed him in a railway 
car with a hundred other people like cattle, and then took him without 
warning to a morgue - a kind of place he'd never seen in his life, a 
kind of place where from time even medical students who think they know 
what to expect nevertheless go green and puke when exposed to the messy 
reality. 

    And in that morgue, limbs are suddenly severed and yet still 
occasionally twitch.  This is something that biology lab students can 
tell you happens, something farm kids who have seen chickens decapitated 
can tell you happens.  (Where do you think the expression, "Running 
around like a chicken with its head cut off" comes from?)  But maybe
Filip Mu"ller (and Bradley Smith, for that matter) had never seen that 
happen before, had never even *heard* of that happening before. 

    And one time when that twitching limb is in a bucket, and hits the
side of the bucket, and it rocks or slides a little - well, if you're not
prepared for that, have never seen or heard of anything like it, so you're
suddenly confronted with something that looks like it's straight out of a
Clive Barker horror novel - well, I think it might make a really strong
impression on your mind.  So strong that the shock comes through in your
description, and you say that the bucket "jumped." 


    Mr. Smith, that's psychology.  Sure, it's not literal.  But it's the 
way things can happen.  Can you stop laughing and put down your 
longshoreman's beer for just a minute and at least attempt to imagine 
how you might react if you personally were suddenly placed in that 
horrible position yourself, instead of hearing it with your drinking 
buddies when you're nice and safe? 

    Maybe you know that a severed limb *can* twitch, but think that this 
still couldn't possibly make the bucket move.  Dan Gannon would have us
believe that the laws of physics make it impossible.  Well, of course it 
can't completely leave the ground, but I just tried a little physics 
experiment right here at my computer.  You can try this one at home. 

    Here's how I do it.  I put my feet up off the floor on the bar 
between the two front chair legs.  The chair is on a vinyl floor 
surface; it has rubber feet, not wheels, so there's a fair amount of 
friction - more, I think, than there would be with a metal bucket on a 
concrete floor.  I sit back in the chair and jab my elbow into the back 
of the chair moderately hard. 

    The chair slides backwards.  It moves.  Maybe a quarter or a half an 
inch, sure - but still, it moves.  (Galileo said the same thing once.)

    Are you laughing?  You don't believe me?  Try it yourself.  Go on.  
I'll wait.

    You hear the words "jumping buckets" and all you look at is the 
simple literal interpretation.  And so, simple workingman that you are, 
you laugh at something that you *know* can't *possibly* be true.

    Well, I guess I can sort of understand that.  Me, though, I'm *not* a
simple workingman.  I've read a lot, I've seen a lot, I've heard of lots
of things that at first glance don't seem like they could possibly be true
but still turn out to be true. 

    So I've learned not to laugh right away.  I try to look a little
deeper.  I look not only at how things could be literally true, but how it
could be *essentially* true.  A severed limb can twitch.  Your simple
workingman on a poultry farm can tell you that - even though he may
still think it looks funny (well, it's only a chicken, after all), he
knows it's true.  And you can prove to yourself that a sharp twitch against
the back of your chair can make your chair move even though you're not
touching anything but the chair.  A bucket would obey the same laws of
physics.  So it *can* move. 

    Now, of course I wasn't there with Filip Mu"ller, nor were you, nor
was a movie camera.  So I can't *prove* to you that Mu"ller ever saw a
twitching severed limb, or that if there was one, it twitched enough to
make the bucket move even a millimeter.  And so it's possible Mu"ller is
lying - I'm perfectly willing to admit that I can't *prove* this specific
story. 

    But Mr. Smith, since you weren't there either, are you equally
prepared to admit that the scenario I described above *could* have
happened?  That Mu"ller saw a truly nightmarish sight and reacted
emotionally and that that strong emotion came out in the language he used
to describe the scene? 

    Mr. Smith, from some of your writing I get the feeling you like old
folk sayings.  Well, here's one for you: never judge a man until you've
walked a mile in his shoes. 

    I'd like you to imagine that you are suddenly pulled out of your easy
chair and thrust without warning into a living B-movie horror show where
one day you see a severed limb - and this time it's not a chicken, but
part of what just a few minutes ago was a *living human being* - flex and
hit the side of a bucket, and rock it or slide it half an inch or so. 

    Now, can you swear to me - honestly - that in such a startling
situation you can be completely confident there's absolutely no way there
could be any exaggeration in your description of the scene due to the
powerful shock you might have just received? 

    I know it sounds sick and disgusting and you wish that it would  
just be some sadomasochistic dream.  Do you know, I wish the same 
thing?  That we lived in a world where truly horrible things never 
happened, no Stalins, no Hitlers, no Pol Pots, and (on a smaller scale) 
no Jeffrey Dahmers, no John Wayne Gacys, no Ted Bundys?  You have no idea 
how much I wish I could confidently say to someone who tells me about 
such things that they were hallucinating, maybe had too much pepperoni 
pizza with jalapenos before going to bed.

    Unfortunately, I can't dismiss things this way.

    As unpleasant as it is, Bradley, try to think about the possibility. 
*Could* things have happened with Filip Mu"ller the way I describe them? 
I'm not asking you if you believe what Mu"ller says about the bucket is
absolutely proven; I agree it's not. I'm just asking: is it *possible*? 

    And if it's *possible* - knowing that he *might* have experienced 
such horror, can you continue to laugh at the man simply because he 
used language which was colorful to describe what might have been the 
most terrifying thing he'd seen in his life to that point?

    All I ask is that you just think about the possibilities here.  Try, 
in your mind, to walk a mile or even just across the floor of that morgue in 
Filip Mu"ller's shoes.  Let me know what you come up with.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 17334 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: The Beate Klarsfeld Foundation
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <-54bk0yNU68E069yn@world.std.com>   <1994Oct9.011905.30906@miavx1>
Date: Sun, 9 Oct 1994 21:04:35 GMT
Lines: 64

Raskolnikov (bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu) wrote:
: In article , codfish@netcom.com 
: (Ross Vicksell) writes:
: > The NYT sure picked just the right guy to do a review of Bacque's book, 
: > Stephen Ambrose is the official Eisenhower biographer, He's written at 
: > great length about what a great guy Ike is. 
: > But somehow Ambrose managed to 
: > completely  miss a major event, the maltreatment of German POWs after the 
:                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: > war, which Eisenhower was responsible for. 
: > Ambroses's reputation was on the 
: > line.  Put yourself in his boots.
: > 
: >                Ross Vicksell

: eh?  Have you gotten bad case of that Raven Myopia?  

: let me quote:
: --------
:  Our first conclusion was that Mr. Bacque had made a major      
:    historical discovery. There _was_ wdiespread mistreatment of German
:    prisoners in the spring and summer of 1945. Men were beaten, denied
:    water, forced to live in open camps without shelter, given
:    inadequate food rations and inadequate medical care. Their mail was

would you believe "no food rations?"

:    withheld. In some cases prisoners made a "soup" of water and grass
:    in order to deal with their hunder. Men did die needlessly and
:    inexcusably. This must be confronted, and it is to Mr. Bacque's
:    credit that he forces us to do so.
: --------

: and again, near the end of Ambrose's review:

: ---------
: Nevertheless, Mr. Bacque makes a point that is irrefutable: some
:    American G.I.'s and their officers were capable of acting in almost

Don't you just love that "almost."

:    as brutal a manner as the Nazis. We did not have a monopoly on
:    virtue. He has challenged us to reopen the question, to do the
:    research required, to get at the full truth. For that contribution,
:    he deserves thanks. But as to how he presented his discovery, I
:    .......
: --------

: Something about those two paragraphs that you don't understand?

The two paragraphs are irrelevant.  I'm sorry if I didn't make myself 
clear, but I was talking about Ambrose's biography of Eisenhower, not about 
his review of Bacque's book.

: emailed to Mr. Vicksell.
: -- 
: =======================================================================
: Brian Harmon           "How much trouble could a couple of 
: Miami University	  scientists get into anyway?"
: Oxford, Ohio 45056  		-- Marc Singer, _Dead Space_
: --------------bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu--------------------------


                          Ross Vicksell


Article 17335 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mattk@summit.novell.com (Kaufman M.E.)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Is the Holocaust a Religion?
Date: 9 Oct 1994 23:13:36 GMT
Organization: Novell
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Danny Keren (dzk@cs.brown.edu) wrote:
: Not very different. I guess Hartel's description is more accurate.

: # By the way, Russiand taxi drivers are telling people today it 
: # was "12,000" that were buried at Babi Yar. 

: This is truly incredible. You always think you heard it all, and
: then some "revisionist scholar" manages to post something which
: sets a new record of stupidity.

: "Russian taxi drivers"? Who? When? Where? How many? To who?
: Were they recorded? 

Now calm down Dan. You know that shining intellectual light of the
denier movement, Mr. Fried Reich Berg, has garnered much of the backing
material for his well thought out arguments from Warsaw cabdrivers, so
obviously Bradley is going to a similar well to water his political hear, err,
horse.

: Is this supposed to be some new standard for historical truth?
: What some mysterious Russian taxi driver said?
:   

Absolutely! Well, denier standard anyway.


Matt
--
Don't anthropomorph-|copyright 1994, mattk@summit.novell.com. All rights
ize computers. They |reserved. Permission for reproduction by USENET and like
don't like it.      |free facilities explicitly allowed. No other reproduction
                    |rights are granted or implied.


Article 17338 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: The Beate Klarsfeld Foundation
In-Reply-To: codfish@netcom.com's message of Sun, 9 Oct 1994 21:04:35 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <-54bk0yNU68E069yn@world.std.com> 
	<1994Oct9.011905.30906@miavx1> 
Date: Mon, 10 Oct 1994 00:49:08 GMT
Lines: 61


From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
>:  Our first conclusion was that Mr. Bacque had made a major      
>:    historical discovery. There _was_ wdiespread mistreatment of German
>:    prisoners in the spring and summer of 1945. Men were beaten, denied
>:    water, forced to live in open camps without shelter, given
>:    inadequate food rations and inadequate medical care. Their mail was
>
>would you believe "no food rations?"

But how would you know this Ross?

Certainly not eyewitness testimony, that's unreliable as you've said
yourself many times.

Do you have any physical evidence that any of this occurred?

Do you have an order from Eisenhower or Roosevelt or someone similarly
in authority ordering any of this to occur? How can you believe that
this was some sort of policy of the Allies and not just an unfortunate
and desparate circumstance of abominable wartime conditions for
everyone?

My father served in the infantry in WWII and often remarked about how
food supplies for American soldiers (and others I'm sure but he could
only speak from his own experiences) could be very uneven and of
having to march two or three days at a time without any food. This was
not uncommon. He, like most soldiers, often had to sleep in open
"camps", often just muddy ditches dug haphazardly. This is not unusual
in wartime conditions. Since this was spring and summer in the
relatively mild climate of Europe how much of a hardship could
sleeping in the open air have been? Some consider this healthful!

What is your best single evidence that any of this occurred?

>In some cases prisoners made a "soup" of water and grass
>:    in order to deal with their hunder.

Why is "soup" in quotes? What is "hunder"? Is there any scientific
evidence that a person can not subsist on such a diet? What's meant by
``some cases''? How many? Who were these cases, exactly, and where
were they? How can we know that these few cases weren't mentally ill
and doing this when plenty of food was available? There's even a
medical term for an obsession to eat grass tho it escapes me right
now. It's similar to "pica", an obsession to eat dirt and so forth.
Is it possible this is all that was being observed? How can we know
for sure?

If they were denied water, as the first paragraph states, then how did
they make a "soup" of grass and water? Either they had water or they
didn't. How do you reconcile this inconsistency?

I'm sure you won't hold this matter to any lower standard than you do
questions regarding the Holocaust and airtight answers to all these
questions will be forthcoming.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 17345 of alt.revisionism:
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From: Bradley R. Smith 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What Bradley Smith finds funny
Date: Sun, 9 Oct 94 22:22:31 -0500
Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice)
Lines: 31
Message-ID: 
References:  <36l88e$2h8@newsbf01.news.aol.com> <373tq0$pqt@picard.mitel.com> <50wWhEh.bradleyrs@delphi.com> <3797ed$iir@access1.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1e.delphi.com
X-To: Michael P. Stein 

Michael P. Stein  writes:
 
>    Obviously, buckets don't levitate from the floor.
 
Obvioulsy, Filip said they did.
 
>    And obviously, liquid blood doesn't literally spurt from the ground 
>like Old Faithful.
 
Obvioulsy, Elie said it does.
 
>    The underlying scientific basis for the "geysers of blood" has been
>previously explained here.  The gas generated by decomposing bodies
>finally manages to break out from the ground rather suddenly when the
>spring thaw comes, or for that matter whenever the pressure from the gas
>becomes great enough enough to break out.  And so bits of dirt (and bits
 
Elie didn't talk about a "passage of time." He wrote (he WROTE)"Eyewitnesses
say that for months after the kllings the ground continued
to spurt geysers of blood."  What's this goofy business about the cadavers
waiting through winter into spring and summer to perform their spectaculum?
"...for months after...."
 
>    Not a geyser, exactly.  I think a "spring" of blood would be more
>accurate.  Well, OK, maybe that black mass wasn't blood.  But if you saw
>such a frightening thing, would you stop to take a sample back to the lab
>for analysis? 
 
Elie is happy with the geysers of blood invention; you're reasonably
happy with the "spring."  Elie is happy with blood, Stein ishappy with
"black mass." I remain happy laughing at Elie.


Article 17347 of alt.revisionism:
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From: Bradley R. Smith 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What Bradley Smith finds funny
Date: Sun, 9 Oct 94 22:58:03 -0500
Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice)
Lines: 110
Message-ID: 
References:  <36l88e$2h8@newsbf01.news.aol.com> <373tq0$pqt@picard.mitel.com> <50wWhEh.bradleyrs@delphi.com> <3797ed$iir@access1.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1e.delphi.com
X-To: Michael P. Stein 

Michael P. Stein  writes:
 
>    You see, Mr. Smith *thinks* he's laughing at Elie Wiesel.  But Wiesel
 
 
 
 
>    You see, Mr. Smith *thinks* he's laughing at Elie Wiesel.  But Wiesel
>never said he saw "geysers of blood."  All Wiesel is doing is reporting
>what some simple workingmen and peasants said when they saw things they
>weren't equipped to handle and didn't fully understand.  So Bradley Smith
>is really laughing at his fellow simple workingmen who reacted with horror
>at bits of flesh and blood-soaked dirt and organs thrown up in the air by
>escaping gas, and described what they witnessed as "geysers of blood." 
 
Yes, I think I'm laughing at Elie Wiesel -- and those who buy his
geysers-of-blood-fantasy.  Wiesel is the world reknonwed author who
put this crapola in his book, The Jews Of Silence (NAL 1966, p.48). He's
had the benefit of living in a modern society for twenty years by then
and he should have known better. Cultists never know better. But what
gets my attention is that the intellectuals on and off campus allow
him to get away with this kind of nonsense because he's a -- survivor!
It isn't "simple workingmen" who are forwarding this stuff in our
universities, but our intellectual elites.
 
>    But - and I say this in all sincerity - I'm really glad that Mr. 
>Smith himself was never forced to see such things.  Nobody should have 
>to see such things.
 
What does Stein know about what I've seen? I've been to two wars and
have seen where there is to see. Those of us who have seen that stuff
and are accosutmed to living in a society where we're allowed to dissent
from establishment mania, have got something of what Hemingway used to
call his "built in shit detector" available to us.
 
>    Well, I guess I can sort of understand that.  Me, though, I'm *not* a
>simple workingman.  I've read a lot, I've seen a lot, I've heard of lots
>of things that at first glance don't seem like they could possibly be true
>but still turn out to be true. 
 
It's good to know that Mr. Stein has read a lot and heard a lot. I suppose
everyone posting here might say much the same thing. Some of us who read a
lot and here a lot are going to trust in the basic sincerety of the Muellers
and Wiesels, others are going distrust them.
 
For example, when it came time for Muller to write his book, Three Years In
(I'm going to resist the pun the title so richly deserves here) The Gas
Chambers, he decided to delete from his recollections his jumping bucket of
flesh story. He didn't try to edit it so that it read less like the work
of a moron, he simply cut it out of his book. Those of you who read a lot and
hear a lot won't see it in his book and that will make Mueller's
testimony more "believeable."
 
>    So I've learned not to laugh right away.  I try to look a little
>deeper.  I look not only at how things could be literally true, but how it
>could be *essentially* true.  A severed limb can twitch.  Your simple
>workingman on a poultry farm can tell you that - even though he may
>still think it looks funny (well, it's only a chicken, after all), he
>knows it's true.  And you can prove to yourself that a sharp twitch against
>the back of your chair can make your chair move even though you're not
>touching anything but the chair.  A bucket would obey the same laws of
>physics.  So it *can* move. 
 
Some of us look deep, some of us look. If you don't like what you read, you can
look deeper and find something you haven't read.
Everything can come out that way any way you want it to.
 
Christians say Mary was impregnated by a ghost. Doens't sound kosher to
me but Christians look very deeply into that story and have come up with
an institution that's lasted 2,000 years. Maybe they're right. Puts Jews
in an awkward place, who look at the story itself rather than underneath
and around and over it, from this perspective and that. Jews are pretty
surfacy people when it comes to some stories but very deep searchers
when it comes to others. Depends a lot on whose ox is being gored.
 
 
>    And if it's *possible* - knowing that he *might* have experienced 
>such horror, can you continue to laugh at the man simply because he 
>used language which was colorful to describe what might have been the 
>most terrifying thing he'd seen in his life to that point?
>
>    All I ask is that you just think about the possibilities here.  Try, 
>in your mind, to walk a mile or even just across the floor of that morgue in 
>Filip Mu"ller's shoes.  Let me know what you come up with.
 
Mueller has written a considerable amount of other sado/masochisitc
materials; his jumping bucket of flesh is only one example of it.
 
It's always good advice to attempt to understand what the other fellow
has experienced. What Mr. Stein has not addressed in his very long post,
include two things (but is not limited to two):
 
One: The sado\masochistic tenor of much of Mueller's testimony goes to
his character: if he's lying about these stories how far can we trust
him on the stories he tells that appear to be sane.
 
Two: There's a German or many Germans on the other end of Mueller's sicko
stories. How about trying to walk a mile in that German's shoes? Why
all this concern for the feelings of Jews and almost without
exception no attempt to EVER understand the guys on the other end of
these charges?
 
Those who forward the establishment version of what went on between
Germans and Jews during the war should look carefully at the
sicko nature of much of the most colorful testimony against the Germans.
 
In this instance, Mueller removed his jumping buckets of flesh story
from the manuscript that is to be judged as his "official" story.
 
What does HE think of it?  Ashamed?


Article 17350 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: What Bradley Smith finds funny
In-Reply-To: Bradley R. Smith's message of Sun, 9 Oct 94 22:58:03 -0500
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
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	<3797ed$iir@access1.digex.net> 
Date: Mon, 10 Oct 1994 03:44:36 GMT
Lines: 127


From: Bradley R. Smith 
>Yes, I think I'm laughing at Elie Wiesel -- and those who buy his
>geysers-of-blood-fantasy.  Wiesel is the world reknonwed author who
>put this crapola in his book, The Jews Of Silence (NAL 1966, p.48).

Wiesel is not a native English speaker, was "The Jews of Silence"
originally published in English?

It occurs to me that a rather minor difference of "geysers" to
"torrents" or some such (ie, removing the imagery of upwards movement)
would make this all easier to understand. Is there an original text
possibly not in English? Wiesel wrote many of his books in French.

It was a ravine, water ran down it, there were 30,000 people buried
there in a shallow grave. It does not take much imagination to conjure
up what 30,000 decomposing bodies with water from rain etc rushing
thru them will produce.

But what's the point really except that Mr Smith has been reduced to
this nipping at the heels of the subject?

Does he deny there were 30,000 people killed at Babi Yar or not? What
evidence does he have for his beliefs?

Who really cares, ONCE AGAIN, whether or not geysers or torrents or
trickles of blood flowed?

Or has Mr Smith completely despaired on his original theses of denying
the holocaust and all that he has to tell us is that sometimes
colorful language creeps into these recountings of history?

>Christians say Mary was impregnated by a ghost. Doens't sound kosher to
>me but Christians look very deeply into that story and have come up with
>an institution that's lasted 2,000 years. Maybe they're right. Puts Jews
>in an awkward place, who look at the story itself rather than underneath
>and around and over it, from this perspective and that. Jews are pretty
>surfacy people when it comes to some stories but very deep searchers
>when it comes to others. Depends a lot on whose ox is being gored.

Now what does all this mean?

So what is the average Christian's view of Mohammed leaping to heaven
on His white horse? Or the Bhagavad Gita?

I mean, get off it Smith. This is pathetic.

Hermann, our resident Nazi, is trying to do grade-school theology on
this list and analyzing Exodus as fast as he can make it up and now
he's got Smith doing it. Gak.

>One: The sado\masochistic tenor of much of Mueller's testimony goes to
>his character: if he's lying about these stories how far can we trust
>him on the stories he tells that appear to be sane.

Don't trust him at all. Toss out every bit of Mueller you own, forget
Mueller entirely. Let's declare from henceforth that every single word
Mueller wrote was complete and utter fabrication.

	SO WHAT?

You'd still have plenty of factual evidence to deal with before you
could begin to conclude the Holocaust is a "hoax" as you seem to want
to believe.

That's perhaps something you fail to understand and where you sound
foolish to many of us. You don't prove whether the holocaust occurred
as is generally believed by nit-picking at some bit of testimony over
and over. Particularly when you guys have completely and 100% rejected
even accepting any eyewitness testimony. What's the point? If Mueller
was proven completely true you'd just back off into your eyewitness
testimony is unreliable stance.

So maybe to look less silly you could deal with some of the hardest
evidence first. Because if you can't deal with that then you are
wasting your time.

	If one bit of evidence stands as proving that the
	holocaust occurred as is generally believed then
	you are wrong. ONE!

And it won't be one.

So to take 1,000 pieces of evidence and to sift through them and say
aha, this one doesn't look so good...WHO CARES? It's SILLY! What about
the other 999? Ok, two don't look so good...WHO CARES? What about the
other 998? And so forth.

Mueller isn't some sort of foundational evidence.

Something like the memos written between Nazi officers during the war
describing their parts in the Holocaust is my idea of basic evidence.

But you won't even acknowledge these exist no matter how many times
they are mentioned.

Why?

Maybe because you are a charlatan and not out to prove anything, just
to dupe and manipulate people?

>Two: There's a German or many Germans on the other end of Mueller's sicko
>stories. How about trying to walk a mile in that German's shoes? Why
>all this concern for the feelings of Jews and almost without
>exception no attempt to EVER understand the guys on the other end of
>these charges?

First stop your lying about the Holocaust, and then perhaps we can
deal with this issue rationally.

But so long as you insult people's intelligence and willingly lie and
falsify you are no source to try to ask for humanity and
compassion. You are just a cheap huckster who is to be discredited.

>Those who forward the establishment version of what went on between
>Germans and Jews during the war should look carefully at the
>sicko nature of much of the most colorful testimony against the Germans.

No, Mr Smith, against the NAZIs.

Even Mr Hitler wasn't a German.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 17353 of alt.revisionism:
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From: btrosko@netaxs.com (Brian Trosko)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What Bradley Smith finds funny
Date: 10 Oct 1994 04:03:05 GMT
Organization: The Trilateral Commission
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Bradley R. Smith (bradleyrs@delphi.com) wrote:
: Michael P. Stein  writes:
: >    And obviously, liquid blood doesn't literally spurt from the ground 
: >like Old Faithful.
:  
: Obvioulsy, Elie said it does.

Uh...no, he didn't. As you admit later in your post, he was merely 
reporting what someone else had said. Let's look, shall we?


:  
: Elie didn't talk about a "passage of time." He wrote (he WROTE)"Eyewitnesses
								  ^^^^^^^^^^^^
: say that for months after the kllings the ground continued
: to spurt geysers of blood."  What's this goofy business about the cadavers
: waiting through winter into spring and summer to perform their spectaculum?
: "...for months after...."

See? Let's type that again....Elie wrote (he WROTE) "*EYEWINESSES* say 
that..."   Get it? Or are you still missing it?


:  
: >    Not a geyser, exactly.  I think a "spring" of blood would be more
: >accurate.  Well, OK, maybe that black mass wasn't blood.  But if you saw
: >such a frightening thing, would you stop to take a sample back to the lab
: >for analysis? 
:  
: Elie is happy with the geysers of blood invention; you're reasonably
: happy with the "spring."  Elie is happy with blood, Stein ishappy with
: "black mass." I remain happy laughing at Elie.
				
You still seem to be missing it. Either that, or laughing at Elie himself 
makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside.  Elie didn't say 'geysers of 
blood.'  Elie said "Eyewitnesses said 'geysers of blood.'"


Just thought I'd point it out again, even though it's been pointed out 
before.  You seem to be intentionally missing the point here. I wonder why?


Article 17362 of alt.revisionism:
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From: doyal@eskimo.com (Thomas Doyal)
Subject: Re: More whore houses
Message-ID: 
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
References:   
Date: Mon, 10 Oct 1994 05:33:47 GMT
Lines: 60

Ross Vicksell (codfish@netcom.com) wrote:
: Barry Shein (bzs@world.std.com) wrote:

: : From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
: : >During the summer of 1943, Himmler ordered the setting up of brothels in 
: : >concentration camps called Sonderbau (special building).  His aim 
: : >was to solve the sexual problem, combat homosexual practices, and 
: : >increase the worker's output ... In mid-December there were thirteen of 
: : >these women in Dachau."
: : >
: : >             from
: : >
: : >    Dachau: 1933-45, The Official History, by Paul Berben, page 7


: : Well, here you have an interesting claim from a holocaust-denier.

: : So how does that gibe with, for example, Mr Doubting Thomas'
: : insistence that the Nazi Army was run in a idyllically professional
: : manner?

: : How many other professional armies have erected brothels? Tolerated

: The Japanese in WWII.  Remember the Korean women the Japanese took with
: them to Southeast Asia for use by their officers. 

The  American Army.  

Doyal@eskimo.com 3rd Inf. Div Arty. WW2

: : them no doubt, but *erected* them?

: : Even if the claim were true this is certainly a two-edged sword that
: : speaks volumes on what sick and twisted creeps these Nazis were.


: What's wrong with the reasons stated by Himmler?

: : The term *brothel* implies the women were paid for what they did.

: : How come I get the feeling this wasn't the case, anyone want to claim
: : otherwise?

: I presume they were paid in camp scrip.

: : Swell, they couldn't just kill and starve the prisoners, they forced
: : the women into sexual slavery also. Anything else Mr Vicksell would
: : like to say in the Nazis' defense?

: : What a swell bunch of guys, real men...tatooing little children,
: : forcing women into sexual slavery, real heros...

: For all I know, they were volunteers.


: : -- 
: :         -Barry Shein

: : Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
: : Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 17412 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More whore houses
Date: 8 Oct 1994 07:58 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 18
Distribution: world
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References:     <1994Oct7.224214.30841@miavx1>
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <1994Oct7.224214.30841@miavx1>, bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov) writes...
>In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:

>> The post by Annya666, citing the book "Playing for Time", which is about 
>> the Auschwitz orchestra, makes mention of a woman who was ostracized by 
>> her fellow inmates after she turned to prostitution.  The implication 
>> that she did it voluntarily is clear.

>        But did she work in the brothel?  

>        By the way, I don't think we ever quite heard your evidence supporting
>the existence of these brothels in the first place.

>        It wouldn't be _testimony_, would it?  

    Yeah, show me a blueprint of a brothel...   :>
===========================================================================
daniel david mittleman     -     danny@arizona.edu     -     (602) 621-2932


Article 17426 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: The military salute
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
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Date: Tue, 11 Oct 1994 04:51:49 GMT
Lines: 18

Morrison (t08o@leda.sun.csd.unb.ca) wrote:

: The military salute, right hand brought to forehead with elbow bent and
: variations thereof (Canadian Forces, palm down, fingers to edge of eyebrow,
: RCMP palm facing outward, 
: British armed forces, palm outward, etc) originated
: in the Royal Navy during the reign of Queen Elizabeth the First.  The 
: captain of a frigate that was to be inspected by Her Majesty ordered his
: men to use their right hands to shield their eyes from the beauty and
: magnificence of the Virgin Queen.  
: This evolved into the present salute and
: its variations.

The way I heard it, it goes back to the Middle Ages. when knighthood was
in flower.  A knight would lift the visor of his helmet to indicate his
friendly intentions when he encountered, by chance, another knight. 

          Ross Vicksell


Article 17427 of alt.revisionism:
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From: Bradley R. Smith 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What Bradley Smith finds funny
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 94 01:36:20 -0500
Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice)
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X-To: Barry Shein 

Barry Shein  writes:
 
>Who really cares, ONCE AGAIN, whether or not geysers or torrents or
 
If Elie Wiesel is willing to forward the geysers'-of-blood nonesense, it goes
to the trustworthyness of other testimony he gives.  Same with Mueller.
 
>Or has Mr Smith completely despaired on his original theses of denying
>the holocaust and all that he has to tell us is that sometimes
>colorful language creeps into these recountings of history?
 
"Denying the holocaust is a `pressspeak' term I never use."  Each story has
to be judged on its own merits; each eyewitness;  each document and all in
\context.
 
>Don't trust him at all. Toss out every bit of Mueller you own, forget
>Mueller entirely. Let's declare from henceforth that every single word
>Mueller wrote was complete and utter fabrication.
>
>	SO WHAT?
 
I think we should. We then have to discover why primary Holocaust historians
use him. I mean Raul Hilberg, Yehuda Bauer and a bucketful of others. If we
believe
Mueller is unworthy of belief, we suggest that Hilberg, Bauer et al are fools
to use his stuff. If they're fools about Mueller, what other things are they
foolish about? We can't just get rid of Mueller without shorting out a lot pf
of connections he's plugged into. His "context."
 
>Now what does all this mean?
 
It means that we should read what a writer writes whether we like it or not
and when we don't like it not try to invent some way to avoid what he has
written.
 
>That's perhaps something you fail to understand and where you sound
 
66 - 72
 
>That's perhaps something you fail to understand and where you sound
>foolish to many of us. You don't prove whether the holocaust occurred
>as is generally believed by nit-picking at some bit of testimony over
>and over. Particularly when you guys have completely and 100% rejected
>even accepting any eyewitness testimony. What's the point? If Mueller
>was proven completely true you'd just back off into your eyewitness
>testimony is unreliable stance.
 
Criticising Mueller is not nit-picking in my view. Which "eyewitnesses" to
gas chambers at Auschwitz are more important than his?
 
Forget "you guys." I'm saying Mueller is goofy, that he's a primary Auschwitz
gas chamber eyewitness, and that he's tied into a whole cadre of Holocaust
scholars through his goofy, sado-masochistic stories, and that his presence
tends to corrupt their official histories of the Auschwitz gas chambers. You're
willing to get rid of Mueller. It's too late for you to do that on your own]
hook. You have to understand why Hilberg, Bauer et al haven't gotten rid of
the guy. Unless you see yourself as a more important scholar than you see them.
I don't reject all eyewitness testimony. A quarter million Jews have given
eyewitness testimony about this or that, and millions of Gentiles. I'm working
with eyewitness testimony about gassing chambers, and some of those eyewitness
stories tha go to make up the German Monster Scam (as I refer to the allegedly
unique behavior of Germans during WW II).
 
>	If one bit of evidence stands as proving that the
>	holocaust occurred as is generally believed then
>	you are wrong. ONE!
 
What holoaust could be proven by one "bit" of evidence?
 
>Mueller isn't some sort of foundational evidence.
 
Mueller is foundational evidence for the gassing chambers at Birkenau.
 
>>Those who forward the establishment version of what went on between
>>Germans and Jews during the war should look carefully at the
>>sicko nature of much of the most colorful testimony against the Germans.
>
>No, Mr Smith, against the NAZIs.
 
You're a nice guy so you're willing to argue that it was the Nazis not the
Germans
Germans who manhandled the Jews. World reknowned author and Nobel Peace Prize
recipient, and one of the men we are discussing here, and who you would like
to see escape with his reputation, has written that it is the "Germans" whom
the Jews should hate. That "every Jew" should hate the Germans for what
Germans (not Nazis) "personify," and for what "persists" in the German (not
NaziNazi).
I don't want to give the impression that I find these kinds of things so
importnat in themselves, but that our intellectual elie
elites will not call the Wiesels, the Muellers, the Whiteways, the Wiesenthals
etc., is terribly corrupting to public debate in this country.
 
Almost nothing that we can discuss here can be discussed in the print press, or
in the academy or even on electronic media. It's almost totally blacked out.
Those are the places where I have been trying to work and I can tell you
that, in effect, open debate on the Holocaust issue is absolutely avoided.
 
Here the issue is avoided in a different way. You say-- get rid of Mueller.
But what about those who have used Mueller in their scholarly works? Shall we
get rid of them too?


Article 17428 of alt.revisionism:
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From: Bradley R. Smith 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What Bradley Smith finds funny
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 94 01:38:15 -0500
Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice)
Lines: 8
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References:  <36l88e$2h8@newsbf01.news.aol.com> <373tq0$pqt@picard.mitel.com> <50wWhEh.bradleyrs@delphi.com> <3797ed$iir@access1.digex.net>  <37aedp$d5h@netaxs.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1d.delphi.com
X-To: Brian Trosko 

Brian Trosko  writes:
 
>You still seem to be missing it. Either that, or laughing at Elie himself 
>makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside.  Elie didn't say 'geysers of 
>blood.'  Elie said "Eyewitnesses said 'geysers of blood.'"
 
When Elie wrote this he committed himself to it by not calling it into
question.


Article 17431 of alt.revisionism:
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Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!torn!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uunet!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: The military salute
In-Reply-To: codfish@netcom.com's message of Tue, 11 Oct 1994 04:51:49 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <379et0$6nl@urvile.msus.edu> <37bhfq$acc@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>
	
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 1994 06:05:12 GMT
Lines: 38


>: The military salute, right hand brought to forehead with elbow bent and
>: variations thereof (Canadian Forces, palm down, fingers to edge of eyebrow,
>: RCMP palm facing outward, 
>: British armed forces, palm outward, etc) originated
>: in the Royal Navy during the reign of Queen Elizabeth the First.  The 
>: captain of a frigate that was to be inspected by Her Majesty ordered his
>: men to use their right hands to shield their eyes from the beauty and
>: magnificence of the Virgin Queen.  
>: This evolved into the present salute and
>: its variations.
>
>The way I heard it, it goes back to the Middle Ages. when knighthood was
>in flower.  A knight would lift the visor of his helmet to indicate his
>friendly intentions when he encountered, by chance, another knight. 

Or perhaps one would raise their right hand away from their sword,
perhaps shielding the eyes in an unambiguous manner indicating
acknowledgement of the other person's presence (like one looks into
the sun, people do that dramatically to indicate they see another
person or something even today.)

Or perhaps one removed his hat to indicate respect to a superior
officer and as this became tedious one merely grasped or touched the
visor in a suggestive motion.

Or similarly one tipped their hat as we've all seen "gentlemen" do (in
movies and the like) in respect or acknowledgement and again it became
abbreviated to merely tapping the visor with the hand.

I've heard all these, no physical evidence though...it's possible they
were just knocking the lice out of their hats and hair...

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 17432 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: What Bradley Smith finds funny
In-Reply-To: Bradley R. Smith's message of Tue, 11 Oct 94 01:36:20 -0500
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  <36l88e$2h8@newsbf01.news.aol.com>
	 <562WJrM.bradleyrs@delphi.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 1994 06:55:18 GMT
Lines: 239


From: Bradley R. Smith  [responding to me]
>>Who really cares, ONCE AGAIN, whether or not geysers or torrents or
> 
>If Elie Wiesel is willing to forward the geysers'-of-blood nonesense, it goes
>to the trustworthyness of other testimony he gives.  Same with Mueller.

Actually it doesn't.

And your mere asserting this proves nothing other than what you are
inclined to believe.

In what language would these eyewitnesses have told their stories to
Wiesel in? Ukranian? Russian?

In what language did Wiesel recount them? French?

In what language did you finally read these? English?

You make a lot of hay out of nothing, really. One word.

Considering the futile fury with which some deniers here are trying to
raise doubts about the meaning of Ausrottung from an original spoken
speech of Himmler's one would think a statement repeated through
probably three different languages without a hope of recovering the
original would be of little interest to Mr Smith.

But, alas, not when he can cling to some vain hope that it will serve
his purposes.

This is pretty thin stuff, is this really all that's bugging you? That
Wiesel recounts a story told him of "geysers" of blood emanating from
a shallow grave with over 30,000 bodies in it?

Isn't how those 30,000 bodies got there a bit more interesting?

>Criticising Mueller is not nit-picking in my view. Which "eyewitnesses" to
>gas chambers at Auschwitz are more important than his?

Nazi officers who wrote each other memos describing the day to day
operations of the gas chambers?

Why, in military memos to each other, would they fabricate such
things?

In a court of law this is called Prima Facie evidence.

Basically, the defendant admits his guilt, why proceed with a
prosecution? (or vice versa, Prima Facie can work either way, the
prosecution could admit innocence, end of case, no need for a
defense.)

In a court of law there really is no sounder and more finalistic
ending than a prima facie judgement. The side accused, eg, admits
their guilt. Why look hard at corroborating evidence unless you have
some reason to believe the defendant is lying (perhaps crazy)?

The Nazis were proud of what they did, Mr Smith.

Why do you feel a need to defend them?

Mr Hitler boasted of his deeds in his last will and testament: The
world will remember me fondly for having exterminated the Jews of
Central and Eastern Europe.

Why do you think a person who says such a thing wants a defense?

He was proud of what he did, he thought to his last dying breath
(almost literally) what he did was a great thing.

Himmler boasts about what they are doing at Poznan. He jokes about it,
he builds an air of camaraderie around it.

Listen even now to people like Kleim! There are people who are glad to
do such things, who are proud of what they would do. They don't want
your defense. They would probably consider what you are trying to do
to be painting them as ambivalent cowards. Read Mein Kampf, Hitler
doesn't mince words, he's not subtle or obscure, he says over and over
that to rid the world of the Jews would be his great dream.

From their first Nuremberg laws forbidding Jews from anything
supported by the govt (jobs, school etc) in 1933, to their race laws,
their death sentences for intermarriage, Krystallnacht, forcing jews
to wear stars in public, forcing them into the ghettos, sending the
Einsatzgruppen out into the field to hunt them down and murder them en
masse, rounding them up in Amsterdam, Paris, Warsaw, wherever they
went...

They don't want you to defend them, Mr Smith. Their only regret was
that they never finished the job. Any fool can see that.

>>	If one bit of evidence stands as proving that the
>>	holocaust occurred as is generally believed then
>>	you are wrong. ONE!
> 
>What holoaust could be proven by one "bit" of evidence?

It's a rhetorical point, Mr Smith.

A pile of evidence is not refuted by one bit being questionable. If
any of it stands, if most of it stands, if much of it stands, then the
truth is known.

>Mueller is foundational evidence for the gassing chambers at Birkenau.

Oh c'mon, at Birkenau?

Probably the largest death-camp facility, and you say we must rely on
only Muller for what went on at Birkenau (aka, Auschwitz-Birkenau)?

>You're a nice guy so you're willing to argue that it was the Nazis not the
>Germans who manhandled the Jews.

As much as I would accept that it was somehow the "communists" and not
the Russians in general who perpetrated Stalin's reign of terror.

Or the Cedras'ans (whatever they're called) in Haiti who have been
responsible for the death squads etc there, rather than just saying
"it was Haitians so Haitians are to blame, Haitians are evil". It's a
fairly stupid point to make (even if it has been made by angry
people.)

etc etc.

There is nothing unusual in this. It takes a rather tiny percentage of
the population to commit such acts of horror. I certainly don't hold
every man who served in the German army responsible, and that would
seem to be about the outer limit of culpability. I realize most were
just young guys serving their country in the way it's always done,
unable or unwilling to see the forest for the trees.

There is nothing unusual going on here, nothing special extended to
the Germans here that isn't extended over and over again to many
people, the understanding that virtually all the evil is the fault of
some small minority. The worst fault that can be laid to the majority
is not stopping them or dumbly putting faith in them. But such is
life, at some point we'd all be damned if we were to accept
that.

America has done some pretty dumb and vicious things also, not on this
scale and not with this evil intent perhaps. They killed nearly a
million people in Vietnam and the result seems pretty damn stupid to
me, did at the time too. And I don't think I'd like someone blaming me
personally for that, in fact I struggled very hard against it. But so
what? A million people still died. Perhaps I didn't try hard enough,
perhaps my mere political activity was indicative of some fundamental
approval of a system that gave us this result. I don't think I'd like
to be judged harshly on this, perhaps I could have been out
assasinating leaders, making armed revolution, doing something worthy
of the acknowledgement that my country was killing tens of thousands
of people per month in my name.

None of us are that pure.

>World reknowned author and Nobel Peace Prize
>recipient, and one of the men we are discussing here, and who you would like
>to see escape with his reputation

Hey, I don't care, Wiesel can defend himself.

>has written that it is the "Germans" whom
>the Jews should hate. That "every Jew" should hate the Germans for what
>Germans (not Nazis) "personify," and for what "persists" in the German (not
>NaziNazi).

You know, you blow it on that one.

We've been around that out of context quote.

I sat and read that when I first saw a revisionist quote that.

You put that in context and it's clear that this favorite little quote
of revisionists is utter bullshit and so out of context as to be
shameful.

Wiesel leads into that with how his recollection of his time as a
prisoner at Auschwitz he doesn't remember hating his tormentors. He
doesn't remember feeling much anything.

He notes that this is because, at that time, his humanity was gone. He
felt nothing really, in retrospect.

And he realizes that to have hated, to have been able to hate, would
have been human. He had been dehumanized, he was unable even to hate.

He says at that point that he realizes now that in some circumstances
hate is good, hate is an expression of humanity, it is good to hate
that which is evil. To not be able to hate that which is evil is not
human.

He is reflecting on his numbness, the numbness of others, how they
were stripped of their humanity. How they could not even hate any
longer.

Then he says the line you sort of mangled above, that to be human is
to be able to HATE what these people did, to be able to hate whatever
it was in the Germans that let this come to be, etc. He prays that the
Germans would hate this too.

Go read the whole section that leads into that, or stop distorting it
if you have read it. How do you expect to get away with a distortion
that merely requires reading through about ten pages of a book
available in most any bookstore? Do you really bet people won't do
that? Has it been your experience that people here don't check or
aren't familiar with such things? What?

Why does it strike me you fellows, IHR, CODOH, engage in such blatant
distortions and half-truths?

Are you really unable to make your point otherwise?

I think that's probably true. The facts do not treat you well.

>Almost nothing that we can discuss here can be discussed in the print press, or
>in the academy or even on electronic media. It's almost totally blacked out.

Maybe because you're forever being caught in these lies and
distortions, who wants to bother with this?

>Those are the places where I have been trying to work and I can tell you
>that, in effect, open debate on the Holocaust issue is absolutely avoided.

No, it's not. A few people who to any person knowledgable on the
subject are clearly twisting and turning and distorting are just being
largely ignored.

It's not shocking, it's hardly even interesting.

>Here the issue is avoided in a different way. You say-- get rid of Mueller.
>But what about those who have used Mueller in their scholarly works? Shall we
>get rid of them too?

I'm saying get to the meat of your gripe. Because I am sure there is
nothing there.
-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 17433 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: What Bradley Smith finds funny
In-Reply-To: Bradley R. Smith's message of Tue, 11 Oct 94 01:38:15 -0500
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  <36l88e$2h8@newsbf01.news.aol.com>
	<373tq0$pqt@picard.mitel.com> <50wWhEh.bradleyrs@delphi.com>
	<3797ed$iir@access1.digex.net> 
	<37aedp$d5h@netaxs.com> 
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 1994 07:05:36 GMT
Lines: 47


From: Bradley R. Smith 
>>You still seem to be missing it. Either that, or laughing at Elie himself 
>>makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside.  Elie didn't say 'geysers of 
>>blood.'  Elie said "Eyewitnesses said 'geysers of blood.'"
> 
>When Elie wrote this he committed himself to it by not calling it into
>question.

And we still have no reason to believe it's not true, except that you
don't like the statement.

30,000 bodies decomposing in a shallow grave!

You think "geysers of blood" is beyond conception?

Wow, I don't.

Take a pound or two of meat, seal it in a container (eg, tupperware)
and leave it in a warm place for a few weeks (hell, leave it in a cool
place for a few weeks, things do rot in your refrigerator right? they
do in mine.)

Put your face real close to the edge of the lid and open it. Report
back on the results (after you're done heaving.)

Now that's a pound or two of rotting meat. Shall we extrapolate that
to 30,000 dead bodies? What's that, over 3 million pounds of rotting
human carcasses?

You don't know what you're talking about. It's entirely believable
that what these people saw from time to time is reasonably described
as "geysers" of blood.

Perhaps it was not precisely blood, perhaps it was some disgusting
mixture of putrifying flesh and water from rain and whatever bursting
forth as the gases of rot bust out.

This is silly, you have no point here, you are merely gambling that
few people want to even try to conceive what three million pounds of
rotting corpses might be like.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
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Article 17439 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What Bradley Smith finds funny
Supersedes: <37e2o0$dth@access4.digex.net>
Date: 11 Oct 1994 09:37:38 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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In article ,
Bradley R. Smith   wrote:
>Brian Trosko  writes:
> 
>>You still seem to be missing it. Either that, or laughing at Elie himself 
>>makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside.  Elie didn't say 'geysers of 
>>blood.'  Elie said "Eyewitnesses said 'geysers of blood.'"
> 
>When Elie wrote this he committed himself to it by not calling it into
>question.

    Just as you committed yourself to a book containing stories of talking
snakes, people turning into salt, *rivers* of blood?  Because that's the
book on which that "firstborn mass murder by a supernatural power" story
is based, and you said it ought to be answered carefully.  You didn't
laugh at it, nor did you laugh at Milt Kleim for exploiting that story to
the hilt, nor did you call it into question. 

     Mr. Smith, how long have you believed in talking snakes?  Have you
ever used LSD, or been an alcoholic?  These are the kinds of people who
tell you they have seen talking snakes.

     Mr. Smith seems to be able to believe in talking snakes, but not in
gas chambers.  Perhaps a qualified psychiatrist could come up with some
sort of explanation; I can't figure it out at all.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 17443 of alt.revisionism:
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What Bradley Smith finds funny
Message-ID: <1994Oct11.005852.31097@miavx1>
From: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov)
Date: 11 Oct 94 00:58:52 -0500
References:  <36l88e$2h8@newsbf01.news.aol.com>  
Organization: Miami University
Lines: 146

In article , Bradley R. Smith  writes:
> Michael P. Stein  writes:
>  
>>    You see, Mr. Smith *thinks* he's laughing at Elie Wiesel.  But Wiesel
>>never said he saw "geysers of blood."  All Wiesel is doing is reporting
>>what some simple workingmen and peasants said when they saw things they
>>weren't equipped to handle and didn't fully understand.  So Bradley Smith
>>is really laughing at his fellow simple workingmen who reacted with horror
>>at bits of flesh and blood-soaked dirt and organs thrown up in the air by
>>escaping gas, and described what they witnessed as "geysers of blood." 
>  
> Yes, I think I'm laughing at Elie Wiesel -- and those who buy his
> geysers-of-blood-fantasy.  Wiesel is the world reknonwed author who
> put this crapola in his book, The Jews Of Silence (NAL 1966, p.48). He's

        Really now, do you find it all that surprising that roting corpseswil
violently release gases, spewing up earth and remains along with them?

        We're talking about hundreds (or more) bodies in a grave, stacked many
high, not coverd by much earth at all.  When they rot (and they will rot) they
wil ferment and release gas.  For the gas to escape, it has to force its way
through bodies and whatever earth is lying on top. Therefore, the gas builds up
quite a pressure before it breaks free.  This release of gas under pressure
supplies the force to move earth and remains of the dead. 

        Where does the blood come from?  Well, the human body is mostly water
(75%?).  The blood and bodily fluids from bodies, even rotting ones,
amounts to a lot of fluid.  As the gases escape, these fluids would also excape
to the surface.   

        Hardly an implausible situation, I'd say.

> had the benefit of living in a modern society for twenty years by then
> and he should have known better. Cultists never know better. But what
> gets my attention is that the intellectuals on and off campus allow
> him to get away with this kind of nonsense because he's a -- survivor!
> It isn't "simple workingmen" who are forwarding this stuff in our
> universities, but our intellectual elites.

        Wel Brad, this is certainly the wrong place to go on an
anti-academic tirade.  

       "Intellectuals", as you put it, allow Wiesel to "get away with it"
beacuase we know the Holocaust happened.  

        Besides, why do you guys keep harping on Wiesel anyway?  We have plenty
of documents written by Nazis during the war, and many other eyewitnesses
besides him.  In the ten documents we sent to Greg Raven, Wiesel wasn't even
listed.

>>    Well, I guess I can sort of understand that.  Me, though, I'm *not* a
>>simple workingman.  I've read a lot, I've seen a lot, I've heard of lots
>>of things that at first glance don't seem like they could possibly be true
>>but still turn out to be true. 
>  
> It's good to know that Mr. Stein has read a lot and heard a lot. 

he also said that he's seen a lot.

> I suppose
> everyone posting here might say much the same thing. Some of us who read a
> lot and here a lot are going to trust in the basic sincerety of the Muellers
> and Wiesels, others are going distrust them.
        
        Well, you guys have pretty well failed to make Mu"ller or Wiesel look
bad, for starters.  The _only_ objections you've raised are to one story that
Wiesel reports _secondhand_-- he never claimed to have seen it himself. 
        The only objection you made against Mu"ller was an exception to his
description of what muscle tissue does in a bucket.  The english translation
said "jump about", so you take that to mean precisely what he said, without
question.  This is a remarkable contrast to all the hemming and hawing deniers
made when the correct translation for "Ausrottung" in Himmler's speech was
discussed.

        Since the only problems you found with Mu"ller and Wiesel are with
minor _details_ of their testimony, I fail to see why Wiesel and Mu"ller are
untrustworthy.


 
> For example, when it came time for Muller to write his book, Three Years In
> (I'm going to resist the pun the title so richly deserves here) The Gas
> Chambers, he decided to delete from his recollections his jumping bucket of
> flesh story. He didn't try to edit it so that it read less like the work
> of a moron, he simply cut it out of his book. Those of you who read a lot and
> hear a lot won't see it in his book and that will make Mueller's
> testimony more "believeable."

Well then, there did you get the original story of Mu"ller discussing the
"jumping buckets" from?

>>
>>    All I ask is that you just think about the possibilities here.  Try, 
>>in your mind, to walk a mile or even just across the floor of that morgue in 
>>Filip Mu"ller's shoes.  Let me know what you come up with.
>  
> Mueller has written a considerable amount of other sado/masochisitc
> materials; his jumping bucket of flesh is only one example of it.

yeah right.  NAME THEM. I've had enough with these unsupported assertions and
randomly flung out accusations.

> It's always good advice to attempt to understand what the other fellow
> has experienced. What Mr. Stein has not addressed in his very long post,
> include two things (but is not limited to two):
>  
> One: The sado\masochistic tenor of much of Mueller's testimony goes to
> his character: if he's lying about these stories how far can we trust
> him on the stories he tells that appear to be sane.

Yet another unsubstantiated assertion.

> Two: There's a German or many Germans on the other end of Mueller's sicko
> stories. How about trying to walk a mile in that German's shoes? Why
> all this concern for the feelings of Jews and almost without
> exception no attempt to EVER understand the guys on the other end of
> these charges?

  Actually, there were plenty of _Germans_ in Mu"ller's shoes too.  
  The only problem was, they were also Jewish. 

  You folks often talk about the Holocaust as some terrible accusation 
against Germany, completely negletic that the Holocaust's and (Naziism's)
first victims were _Germans_.

  Unless you think that the Nuremburg laws stripping all Jews of 
citizenship were steps in the right direction....

> Those who forward the establishment version of what went on between
> Germans and Jews during the war should look carefully at the
> sicko nature of much of the most colorful testimony against the Germans.

  This should be "the Nazis and Jews"...  Many Nazis were not German, and 
there were definitely Germans who were not Nazis.

  Anyway, so what? The Holocaust was a sick, twisted thing.  
Why should tesimony about it be anything other than horrid? 
However "sick" the testimonies are, they are nowhere near as demented
as the Holocaust itself.


=======================================================================
Brian Harmon           "Everything has its wonders, even darkness and
Miami University	  silence.."
Oxford, Ohio 45056		-Helen Keller
--------------bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu--------------------------


Article 17445 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What Holocaust could be so proved?
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 1994 13:01:51 -0400
Organization: Msen, Inc. -- Ann Arbor, MI (account info: +1 313 998-4562)
Lines: 64
Message-ID: 
References: 
   <36l88e$2h8@newsbf01.news.aol.com>
   
   <562WJrM.bradleyrs@delphi.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: lpi.pnet.msen.com

This is sheer brilliance.

This is a _crucial_ point, so I'm emailing it to both Mr. Smith and
Mr. Raven, contrary to my usual mode of operation.  I won't make a
habit out of this;  this is a special case.


Barry Shein wrote the following:

> If one bit of evidence stands as proving that the
> holocaust occurred as is generally believed then
> you are wrong. ONE!

This is, of course, true, but it's a tautology.  If one bit of evidence
stands as proving X, then X is true.  That's the way the world works.

In response to this tautology, Bradley Smith asked rhetorically:

> What holoaust could be proven by one "bit" of evidence?

A good question!  A fine rhetorical question, there, Mr. Smith!

An excellent question!

Let's reflect on that question.

What one bit of evidence _could_ prove a Holocaust?  What we're talking
about is a project of immense scope.  The Holocaust, historians tell
us, involved millions of victims and tens of thousands of direct
perpetrators.  It took place all over Europe -- from small internment
camps in France to huge mass-murder camps in Poland.  It took years to
carry out.

How on earth could something of such immensity be proven by one piece
of evidence?  If someone came to me claiming that he had one piece of
evidence that conclusively proved millions of murders that took place
over half a decade, spread over untold millions of square miles, I'd
dismiss such a claim at first sight.  That would be ridiculous.

Yet this one piece of evidence is _exactly_ what Greg Raven has asked
us all for.

Over the past few months, Mr. Raven has made it abundantly clear that
he will settle for one (or possibly two) pieces of evidence, and that
those alone must prove the Holocaust.  Mr. Raven has defined the
Holocaust as inherently involving gas chambers, and he insists that
the evidence specifically address gas chambers.  He has refused even to
look at evidence regarding a gassing of 900 Russian POWs, because they
weren't Jewish, and Mr. Raven has defined the Holocaust to deal
exclusively with Jews.

Mr. Raven has characterized the way that historians evaluate evidence
-- that is, looking at all of it -- as "a blind man leaning on a
cripple."  That is, he cares not for thousands of pieces of evidence,
all of which corroborate each other.  He wants one single solitary
piece of evidence (or possibly two).

The question for you, Mr. Raven, is:

What holocaust _could_ be proven by one bit of evidence?
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "...just consider alt.revisionism a suburb of talk.bizarre
  and everything starts falling into place."  - Steve Miller


Article 17466 of alt.revisionism:
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From: quirke_a@ix.wcc.govt.nz
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Is the Holocaust a Religion?
Date: 12 Oct 1994 01:28:49 GMT
Organization: Wellington City Council, Public Access
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Message-ID: <37fe4h$eso@golem.wcc.govt.nz>
References:  <36l88e$2h8@newsbf01.news.aol.com> ,<5y2Upgv.bradleyrs@delphi.com>
Reply-To: quirke_a@ix.wcc.govt.nz
NNTP-Posting-Host: ix.wcc.govt.nz

Bradley R. Smith  writes:

>Several million persons in North America either disbelieve the orthodox
>Holocaust story or have serious doubts about it. There are tens of millions in
>the rest of the world who disbelieve or doubt it.
>It would be interesting for you to attempt to demonstrate that none are
>adults -- they must all be children, eh Barry?

   Implying, of course, that hundreds of millions of people in America,
and *billions* worldwide, believe in the essential Holocaust story,
that between 10 and 12 million civilians were deliberately and 
systematically executed by Nazi-led Germany.

   It would be interesting for you to show how they could all be wrong,
naming the names and showing the forgeries of any conspiracies you might
assert spread this story, and showing the evidence thereof.

   You can't, of course.

- Tony Q.
---
Tony Quirke, Wellington, New Zealand (email for phone no)
"Give me back the Berlin Wall, give me Stalin and St. Paul.
"Give me Christ or give me Hiroshima.
"Destroy another fetus now, we don't like children anyhow.
"I've seen the future, baby: it is murder." - Leonard Cohen


Article 17477 of alt.revisionism:
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What Bradley Smith finds funny
Message-ID: <1994Oct12.012237.31187@miavx1>
From: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov)
Date: 12 Oct 94 01:22:37 -0500
References:  <36l88e$2h8@newsbf01.news.aol.com>  <562WJrM.bradleyrs@delphi.com>
Organization: Miami University
Lines: 132


In article <562WJrM.bradleyrs@delphi.com>, Bradley R. Smith  writes:
> Barry Shein  writes:
>  
>>Who really cares, ONCE AGAIN, whether or not geysers or torrents or
>  
> If Elie Wiesel is willing to forward the geysers'-of-blood nonesense, it goes
> to the trustworthyness of other testimony he gives.  Same with Mueller.

  arrgh.  Wiesel is not saying that the ground spouted geyser of blood.  he is
saying that _eyewitnesses_ reported that the ground heaved for months
afterwards, tossing up what eyewitnesses called blood.

  Besides, The _only_ problem you've found with either Wiesel or Mu"ller 
is in one _detail_ of everything they've ever said.

Wiesel repeated a story he heard from eyewitnesses. Whether or not that 
story is true does not mean that Wiesel was mistaken in what he saw.

Mu"ller may have exaggerated what he saw.  That does not mean that he
did not see thousands of people gassed and killed in awful ways.  

But again, these are a miniscule number of _details_ that
you found any problems  with whatsoever.

Kari recently posted a message about how many survivors from 
the recent ferry accident in the N. sea have had many many
details very wrong about the wreck.  Some of them also claim 
to have received phone calls from relatives who went down with the ship,
etc. I suggest you read Kari's post.

  Since these survivors have details mixed up about the ferry accident,
does that then mean that the ferry did not sink?  Of course not.

  Now, when you find an individual who has witnessed something 
truly horrible to behold, and you find only one or two details 
in their stories are mixed up, does that mean that they did _not_
(in Mu"ller's case) see thousands die in the gas chambers?

Of course not.  

>>Don't trust him at all. Toss out every bit of Mueller you own, forget
>>Mueller entirely. Let's declare from henceforth that every single word
>>Mueller wrote was complete and utter fabrication.
>>
>>	SO WHAT?
>  
> I think we should. We then have to discover why primary Holocaust historians
> use him. I mean Raul Hilberg, Yehuda Bauer and a bucketful of others. If we

        How much is he used, Bradley?  Can you tell us how much he is used by
Hilber, etc. relative to letters written by Nazis during WWII?
        relative to confessions or other eyewitness testimony that 
you have failed to cast any doubt on?

>>That's perhaps something you fail to understand and where you sound
>>foolish to many of us. You don't prove whether the holocaust occurred
>>as is generally believed by nit-picking at some bit of testimony over
>>and over. Particularly when you guys have completely and 100% rejected
>>even accepting any eyewitness testimony. What's the point? If Mueller
>>was proven completely true you'd just back off into your eyewitness
>>testimony is unreliable stance.
>  
> Criticising Mueller is not nit-picking in my view. Which "eyewitnesses" to
> gas chambers at Auschwitz are more important than his?

  The Nazis who did the deed.  One particular thing you haven't 
noticed is how well Mu"ller's testimony matches with other eyewitness 
and with Nazi reports.

 If he's full of it, why isn't his story grossly aberrant when compared 
to other reports?  Why is it that reports from so many different sources,
eyewitnesses, Nazis, etc. all affirm the same thing -- that thousands died in
Auschwitz's gas chambers, and many more died in the camp in other ways?

  Why have you never found a Nazi testimony  that says millions did _not_
die in the Holocaust?  

  Why have you never found any evidence that the Reinhard camps were 
anything other than killing factories?

  Why have you found no evidence that concentration camps weren't a
very brutal and lethal place to live (if you're a prisoner)?

 Because no evidence exists.  zero.  nil.  

 You haven't any positive evidence to prove your case at all.  Your
entire thesis rests upon knocking holes in established history, not
building up an alternate one. 

> eyewitness testimony about this or that, and millions of Gentiles. I'm working
> with eyewitness testimony about gassing chambers, and some of those eyewitness
> stories tha go to make up the German Monster Scam (as I refer to the allegedly
> unique behavior of Germans during WW II).

        you mean Nazi Monster Scam.  there's a difference.

  Not all Germans were Nazis, and not all Nazis were German 

  
>>	If one bit of evidence stands as proving that the
>>	holocaust occurred as is generally believed then
>>	you are wrong. ONE!
>  
> What holoaust could be proven by one "bit" of evidence?

good point.  perhaps you should discuss how historical 
events cannot be proven with one piece of evidence with Greg 
Raven.



>  
>>Mueller isn't some sort of foundational evidence.
>  
> Mueller is foundational evidence for the gassing chambers at Birkenau.

No he is not. Can you find me a scholar who claims this?

There is much better evidence than Mu"ller, Mu"ller merely supports
other eyewitness testimony, just like other eyewitness testimony supports
Mu"ller.

If Mu"ller was "foundational evidence" then why don't historians 
only quote him?

=======================================================================
Brian Harmon           "All Truths are for me soaked in blood"
Miami University	  	    -Nietzsche, _Ecce Homo_
Oxford, Ohio 45056  	"yeeck! ack! ungh!" -- me	
--------------bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu--------------------------



Article 17493 of alt.revisionism:
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From: golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What Bradley Smith finds funny
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 1994 21:29:52 -0600
Organization: MCSNet Services
Lines: 97
Message-ID: 
References:  <36l88e$2h8@newsbf01.news.aol.com>  <562WJrM.bradleyrs@delphi.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: golux.pr.mcs.net

In article <562WJrM.bradleyrs@delphi.com>, Bradley R. Smith
 wrote:

> Barry Shein  writes:
>  
> >Who really cares, ONCE AGAIN, whether or not geysers or torrents or
>  
> If Elie Wiesel is willing to forward the geysers'-of-blood nonesense, it goes
> to the trustworthyness of other testimony he gives.  Same with Mueller.

Mr. Smith, you have "forwarded" the oft-discredited Leuchter report *in
full knowledge, as you admitted yourself, that it is of at least
questionable validity*.  Now, what does that say about your
trustworthiness?

[...]
> >Don't trust him at all. Toss out every bit of Mueller you own, forget
> >Mueller entirely. Let's declare from henceforth that every single word
> >Mueller wrote was complete and utter fabrication.
> >
> >       SO WHAT?
>  
> I think we should. We then have to discover why primary Holocaust historians
> use him. I mean Raul Hilberg, Yehuda Bauer and a bucketful of others. If we
> believe
> Mueller is unworthy of belief, we suggest that Hilberg, Bauer et al are fools
> to use his stuff. If they're fools about Mueller, what other things are they
> foolish about? We can't just get rid of Mueller without shorting out a lot pf
> of connections he's plugged into. His "context."

If you "use" Leuchter's stuff, I guess that makes you a fool, huh?  What
other things are you foolish about?

Face it, Mr. Smith, "forwarding" a story is not the same as relying on it;
Please show me where any of Hilberg, Bauer, or the "bucketful" of others
has ever indicated that their belief in the events of the Holocaust
depends on Mueller's story.

> >That's perhaps something you fail to understand and where you sound
> >foolish to many of us. You don't prove whether the holocaust occurred
> >as is generally believed by nit-picking at some bit of testimony over
> >and over. Particularly when you guys have completely and 100% rejected
> >even accepting any eyewitness testimony. What's the point? If Mueller
> >was proven completely true you'd just back off into your eyewitness
> >testimony is unreliable stance.
>  
> Criticising Mueller is not nit-picking in my view. Which "eyewitnesses" to
> gas chambers at Auschwitz are more important than his?
>  
> Forget "you guys." I'm saying Mueller is goofy, that he's a primary Auschwitz
> gas chamber eyewitness, and that he's tied into a whole cadre of Holocaust
> scholars through his goofy, sado-masochistic stories, and that his presence
> tends to corrupt their official histories of the Auschwitz gas chambers. 
> You're
> willing to get rid of Mueller. It's too late for you to do that on your own]
> hook. You have to understand why Hilberg, Bauer et al haven't gotten rid of
> the guy. Unless you see yourself as a more important scholar than you see 
> them.
> I don't reject all eyewitness testimony. A quarter million Jews have given
> eyewitness testimony about this or that, and millions of Gentiles. I'm working
> with eyewitness testimony about gassing chambers, and some of those eyewitness
> stories tha go to make up the German Monster Scam (as I refer to the allegedly
> unique behavior of Germans during WW II).

You have yet to show how Mueller's story *as he told it* (let alone
Mueller himself) is "goofy."  What you've done is exaggerated Mueller's
story into "samba" and "lambada" and "levitating bucket."  Yes, a bucket
doing the samba or lambada, or rising into the air, or leading Nazi
scientists on a merry chase around the lab -- those are goofy.  But, Mr.
Smith:

THOSE ARE YOUR STORIES.  YOURS, NOT MUELLER'S.

So, I guess YOU are the one who's goofy, huh?
 

> Almost nothing that we can discuss here can be discussed in the print press, 
> or
> in the academy or even on electronic media. It's almost totally blacked out.
> Those are the places where I have been trying to work and I can tell you
> that, in effect, open debate on the Holocaust issue is absolutely avoided.

This isn't a matter of "open debate," Mr. Smith.  (And by the way, this
*is* electronic media, so I don't see how you can claim that electronic
media has a blackout on your kind of "debate.")

Instead, this is a matter of your denial, and the tactics you and others
like you use to "forward" your bogus view of history.  I'm pretty sure all
of those things can be discussed in any forum you can think of.

Posted & emailed.

-- 
D. J. Schaeffer |       The Todal looks like a blob of glup.
golux@mcs.com   |     It makes a sound like rabbits screaming,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^        and smells of old, unopened rooms.
                            -- Thurber, _The 13 Clocks_


Article 17499 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What Holocaust could be so proved?
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 1994 22:04:33 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 41
Message-ID: 
References:  
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan009.kaiwan.com

In article ,
k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

> Over the past few months, Mr. Raven has made it abundantly clear that
> he will settle for one (or possibly two) pieces of evidence, and that
> those alone must prove the Holocaust.  Mr. Raven has defined the
> Holocaust as inherently involving gas chambers, and he insists that
> the evidence specifically address gas chambers.  He has refused even to
> look at evidence regarding a gassing of 900 Russian POWs, because they
> weren't Jewish, and Mr. Raven has defined the Holocaust to deal
> exclusively with Jews.

As usual, my comments are being completely mischaracterized.

I have NEVER said that I want to see the one piece of evidence that proves
the Holocaust. I have said that I want to discuss the claim that there was
a Nazi plan or policy to exterminate the Jews in homicidal gas chambers,
and that I want to discuss this claim by looking at the best evidence
first.

I do not define the Holocaust as a single event, or even as only those
events that include gas chambers. I agree that a holocaust took place. What
I am trying to get at is what comprises that holocaust? I contend that
there is no evidence to support claims that homicidal gas chambers were
part of the Holocaust.

As to Keren's "evidence," Keren did not supply evidence, he supplied
testimonies. Testimonies may support evidence, but they are not themselves
evidence. Even if Keren's testimonies were evidence, my request was
specifically for evidence of a Nazi plan or policy to exterminate Jews in
gas chambers. Keren's testimony about a "trial gassing" of Russion POW is
'way off point.

-- 

Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
For free information, write to:
Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
---------------------------------------------------
The Journal of Historical Review, 6 times/year, $40
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, $10.00 + $1.00 shipping


Article 17502 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: What Holocaust could be so proved?
In-Reply-To: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com's message of Wed, 12 Oct 1994 22:04:33 -0800
Message-ID: 
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  
	
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 06:27:28 GMT
Lines: 65


From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
>I do not define the Holocaust as a single event, or even as only those
>events that include gas chambers. I agree that a holocaust took place. What
>I am trying to get at is what comprises that holocaust? I contend that
>there is no evidence to support claims that homicidal gas chambers were
>part of the Holocaust.

Here, a stunningly specific and clear excerpt from a report written by
SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Alfred Franke-Gricksch for SS-Colonel M. Von Herff
and RF-SS Heinreich Himmler describing gassing and cremation of Jews
at Auschwitz after an inspection on May 14-16, 1943. Includes the
estimate of 500,000 victims thus far.

Now, unless you can prove this is somehow a forgery, or that somehow
this report written by one Nazi officer for two other Nazi officers of
the highest ranks and in the course of their duties was somehow
fabricated or done under duress I think we are done. You may consider
any other evidence as supporting, of course. But it is hard to
conceive of a more convincing bit of evidence than the following
internal Nazi government report prepared for themselves:


                        --------------------


  "..the unfit go to cellars in a large house which are entered
   from outside.  They go down five or six steps into a fairly long, 
   well-constructed and well-ventilated cellar area, which is lined 
   with benches to the left and right. It is brightly lit, and 
   the benches are numbered.  The prisoners are told that they are to 
   be cleansed and disinfected for their new assignments.  They must therefore 
   completely undress to be bathed. To avoid panic and to prevent
   disturbances of any kind, they are instructed to arrange their
   clothing neatly under their respective numbers, so that they will
   be able to find their things again after their bath.  Everything
   proceeds in a perfectly orderly fashion.  Then they pass through 
   a small corridor and enter a large cellar room which resembles a
   shower bath.  In this room are three large pillars, into which
   certain materials can be lowered from outside the cellar room.
   When three- to four-hundred people have been herded into this room,
   the doors are shut, and containers filled with the substances are
   dropped down into the pillars.  As soon as the containers touch 
   the base of the pillars, they release particular substances that put
   the people to sleep in one minute. A few minutes later, the door opens
   on the other side, where the elevator is located. . . . Then
   the corpses are loaded into elevators and brought up to the first
   floor, where ten large crematoria are located. (Because fresh
   corpses burn particularly well, only 50-100 lbs. of coke are needed
   for the whole process.)  The job itself is performed by Jewish
   prisoners, who never step outside this camp again.
      The results of this `resettlement action' to date: 500,000 Jews
   Current capacity of the `resettlement action' ovens: 10,000
   in twenty-four hours."
                  --from report entitled "Resettlement of Jews"
                    written by SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Alfred Franke-Gricksch
                    for SS-Col. M. von Herff and RF-SS H. Himmler, after
                    inspection of Auschwitz camp on 14-16 May 1943.  This
                    excerpt from "Hitler and the Final Solution" by
                    Gerald Fleming, ISBN 0-520-05103-3.
-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 17564 of alt.revisionism:
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From: freedman@software.mitel.com (Gordon Freedman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Is the Holocaust a Religion?
Date: 14 Oct 1994 13:50:36 -0400
Organization: Mitel Corporation
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <37mgdc$7ss@picard.mitel.com>
References:  <36l88e$2h8@newsbf01.news.aol.com> <373tq0$pqt@picard.mitel.com> <50wWhEh.bradleyrs@delphi.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: picard.mitel.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0]

Bradley R. Smith (bradleyrs@delphi.com) wrote:
: Gordon Freedman  writes:
:  
: >You have also, on numerous occasions, sadistically made jokes about the pain
: >and suffering of innocent civilians during World War II.
:  
: Not true. Where?

Unfortunately, I do not archive all postings on this newsgroup.  I know that
certain comments regarding a dog were made in your own "not too scholarly"
publication.  There is also the Samba comment.  Perhaps we should start a new
list to be archived specifically aimed at answering this question.

Gordon
- my opinion only -


Article 17587 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Franke-Gricksch "report"
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 23:19:38 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 31
Message-ID: 
References:   
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan009.kaiwan.com

In article , bzs@world.std.com (Barry
Shein) wrote:

> Here, a stunningly specific and clear excerpt from a report written by
> SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Alfred Franke-Gricksch for SS-Colonel M. Von Herff
> and RF-SS Heinreich Himmler describing gassing and cremation of Jews
> at Auschwitz after an inspection on May 14-16, 1943. Includes the
> estimate of 500,000 victims thus far.
> 
> Now, unless you can prove this is somehow a forgery, or that somehow
> this report written by one Nazi officer for two other Nazi officers of
> the highest ranks and in the course of their duties was somehow
> fabricated or done under duress I think we are done. You may consider
> any other evidence as supporting, of course. But it is hard to
> conceive of a more convincing bit of evidence than the following
> internal Nazi government report prepared for themselves:
> (text deleted)

Well, I guess it had to happen sooner or later ... the old F-G "report"
bobs to the surface again. Before I respond to this, are you saying that
this, finally, is the best evidence that the Nazis had a plan or policy to
exterminate Jews in gas chambers?

-- 

Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
For free information, write to:
Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
---------------------------------------------------
The Journal of Historical Review, 6 times/year, $40
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, $10.00 + $1.00 shipping


Article 17605 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Franke-Gricksch "report"
In-Reply-To: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com's message of Fri, 14 Oct 1994 23:19:38 -0800
Message-ID: 
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  
	
	
Date: Sat, 15 Oct 1994 21:28:37 GMT
Lines: 51


From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
>Well, I guess it had to happen sooner or later ... the old F-G "report"
>bobs to the surface again. Before I respond to this, are you saying that
>this, finally, is the best evidence that the Nazis had a plan or policy to
>exterminate Jews in gas chambers?

Just respond or admit defeat.

Stop playing these transparent and childish games.


  "..the unfit go to cellars in a large house which are entered
   from outside.  They go down five or six steps into a fairly long, 
   well-constructed and well-ventilated cellar area, which is lined 
   with benches to the left and right. It is brightly lit, and 
   the benches are numbered.  The prisoners are told that they are to 
   be cleansed and disinfected for their new assignments.  They must therefore 
   completely undress to be bathed. To avoid panic and to prevent
   disturbances of any kind, they are instructed to arrange their
   clothing neatly under their respective numbers, so that they will
   be able to find their things again after their bath.  Everything
   proceeds in a perfectly orderly fashion.  Then they pass through 
   a small corridor and enter a large cellar room which resembles a
   shower bath.  In this room are three large pillars, into which
   certain materials can be lowered from outside the cellar room.
   When three- to four-hundred people have been herded into this room,
   the doors are shut, and containers filled with the substances are
   dropped down into the pillars.  As soon as the containers touch 
   the base of the pillars, they release particular substances that put
   the people to sleep in one minute. A few minutes later, the door opens
   on the other side, where the elevator is located. . . . Then
   the corpses are loaded into elevators and brought up to the first
   floor, where ten large crematoria are located. (Because fresh
   corpses burn particularly well, only 50-100 lbs. of coke are needed
   for the whole process.)  The job itself is performed by Jewish
   prisoners, who never step outside this camp again.
      The results of this `resettlement action' to date: 500,000 Jews
   Current capacity of the `resettlement action' ovens: 10,000
   in twenty-four hours."
                  --from report entitled "Resettlement of Jews"
                    written by SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Alfred Franke-Gricksch
                    for SS-Col. M. von Herff and RF-SS H. Himmler, after
                    inspection of Auschwitz camp on 14-16 May 1943.  This
                    excerpt from "Hitler and the Final Solution" by
                    Gerald Fleming, ISBN 0-520-05103-3.
-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 17713 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Franke-Gricksch "report"
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 07:30:17 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 26
Message-ID: 
References:   
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan009.kaiwan.com

In article , bzs@world.std.com (Barry
Shein) wrote:

> 
> From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
> >Well, I guess it had to happen sooner or later ... the old F-G "report"
> >bobs to the surface again. Before I respond to this, are you saying that
> >this, finally, is the best evidence that the Nazis had a plan or policy to
> >exterminate Jews in gas chambers?
> 
> Just respond or admit defeat.
> 
> Stop playing these transparent and childish games.

I'll take that as a "yes," although you don't seem very certain of
yourself. I will prepare an analysis of the Franke-Gricksch "report" and
post it here in a couple of days.

-- 

Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
For free information, write to:
Institute for Historical Review/PO Box 2739/Newport Beach, CA 92659
---------------------------------------------------
The Journal of Historical Review, 6 times/year, $40
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, $10.00 + $1.00 shipping


Article 17733 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: A triumvirate of evidence
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 16:02:57 -0400
Organization: University of Michigan
Lines: 134
Message-ID: 
References: 
   
   
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm005-06.dialip.mich.net

greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:

> As usual, my comments are being completely mischaracterized.
> 
> I have NEVER said that I want to see the one piece of evidence that proves
> the Holocaust. I have said that I want to discuss the claim that there was
> a Nazi plan or policy to exterminate the Jews in homicidal gas chambers,
> and that I want to discuss this claim by looking at the best evidence
> first.

Very well.

I propose that the best evidence for the Holocaust is a triumvirate of
evidence, which I present below.

I take Mr. Raven's definition of the word "Holocaust," to wit:  the 
murder of six million Jews as a central act of state by the Nazis during 
the Second World War, many in gas chambers.

Note that this differs in a subtle but important way from Mr. Raven's
phraseology above.  In his definition, he makes it clear that gas chambers
were simply the means by which the policy was carried out.  In his quoted
article above, he implies that the gas chambers were part and parcel of the
plan.  That is false.  The plan was to exterminate European Jewry;  the
gas chambers turned out to be the best means of doing so, but they were
not an expressed part of the policy.


So:  how best to prove that the Nazis had a plan to kill millions of Jews,
and that many such killings were done en masse in gas chambers?

Well, obviously there are two parts to that challenge:  the plan, and the
fact of the killings.

To prove the plan, I present the first document of the triumvirate.  This
happens to be the same one we've been discussing all this time, the first
document from the May 4th article:  Himmler's speeches on October 4th and
6th, 1943, to SS officers and Gauleiter, at a place called Poznan.

We've all seen this speech many times over the last few months, so I'll
just review the "highlights":  on October 4th, Himmler said:

    I am referring now to the evacuation of the Jews, to the
    extermination of the Jewish people.  This is something that is
    easily said:  "The Jewish people will be exterminated," says every
    Party member, "this is very obvious, it is in our program --
    elimination of the Jews, extermination, will do."

Note that this document is, by necessity, a transcript of a speech by a
man holding a high position in the Nazi government.  There is, as far as
I can see, no better way to prove that a government intended one thing or
another than to quote a high-ranking official in that government.  And
Himmler was second in command, taking orders only from Hitler.  So these
speeches by the Reichsfuehrer-SS, and especially those few "highlights"
from them that have been posted to this newsgroup, must surely be some of
the best evidence proving the Nazi policy, if not the best.  I can hardly
imagine better.


The second document of the triumvirate is the fact that the gassings were
occurring.  For this document, I cite Hoess' memoirs, specifically the
fourth document from the May 4th article:

    On the railroad ramp the Jews, who up till then had been under the
    supervision of the state police, were taken over by a squad from the
    camp.  They were led by the head of the detention camp, in two
    detachments, to the bunker.  That was what we called the extermination
    installations.  The luggage stayed on the ramp, from where it was
    carried to the sorting area - called Kanada - between the buildings
    of the DAW [weapons factory] and the courtyard.  The Jews had to
    undress near the bunker.  They were told that they had to go into
    what were called delousing rooms.  All these rooms, five in all, were
    filled simultaneously.  The doors were hermetically sealed, and the
    contents of the cans of gas were dropped in through the holes in the
    ceiling provided for this purpose.
    
    Half an hour later the doors were opened;  there were two in each
    room.  The corpses were removed and taken to the ditches on tip wagons
    that ran on rails.  Trucks carried the clothes to the sorting area.
    All the work, including help in undressing, filling the bunker,
    emptying the bunker, burying the corpses, as well as digging and
    filling up the mass graves, was done by a special detail of Jews who
    were housed separately and who, in accordance with Eichmann's
    instructions, were also exterminated after each big operation.

Again, I've tried to come up with the best possible source for proving
that gassings were occurring.  And who better to serve as a witness than
the commandant of the camp himself?  He was obviously there;  he was
obviously in a position to know.  He had no reason to lie, because his
memoirs were written after he'd been convicted and condemned to death.
Surely Rudolf Hoess was one of the best sources available -- if not the
best.  I can hardly imagine one better.


The third document ties the first two together conclusively.  The two
by themselves do not prove that the gassings were a result of the plan
to exterminate European Jewry.  (True, Hoess does mention above that
the killing of the Sonderkommando was "in accordance with Eichmann's
instructions," but this isn't the strongest link possible.)

To demonstrate the connection, I again turn to Hoess' memoirs, in which
he makes it clear.  Again, I point out that this evidence has been
posted to this newsgroup before:

    Himmler greeted me with the following:  "The Fuehrer has ordered the
    Final Solution of the Jewish question.  We the SS have to carry out
    this order.  The existing extermination sites in the East are not
    in a position to carry out these intended operations on a large
    scale.  I have, therefore, chosen Auschwitz for this purpose. 
    [...]  The Jews are the eternal enemies of the German people and
    must be exterminated.  All the Jews within our reach must be
    annihilated during this war.  If we do not succeed in destroying
    the biological foundation of Jewry now, then one day the Jews will
    destroy the German people."

Again, what evidence could possibly be better than this to prove this
point?  We want to demonstrate that the Auschwitz exterminations were
the result of an order from above, expressing the desire to exterminate
European Jewry;  in Hoess' memoirs, we find his account of receiving
exactly that order to do exactly that.  So, again, this is surely one
of the best sources available to prove the connection, if not the best.
I can hardly imagine one better.


Please address this triumvirate of evidence, Mr. Raven.  Do you now
accept that there was a Nazi plan or policy to exterminate European
Jewry -- a policy that was carried out, in part, with gas chambers?

Emailed to Mr. Raven, because I've posted a lot to the net recently
and I don't want this important article to get lost in the shuffle.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "I am taking landpost's spelling as correct,
  I realize that is not risk-free"  - Daniel Rice


Article 17746 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Franke-Gricksch "report"
In-Reply-To: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com's message of Tue, 18 Oct 1994 07:30:17 -0800
Message-ID: 
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  
	
	
Date: Wed, 19 Oct 1994 01:45:07 GMT
Lines: 16


From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
>I'll take that as a "yes," although you don't seem very certain of
>yourself. I will prepare an analysis of the Franke-Gricksch "report" and
>post it here in a couple of days.

And then we can go on to the next.

You will have to show them all to be unsupporting to make your point.


-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 17762 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Franke-Gricksch "report"
Date: 19 Oct 1994 06:50:29 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 83
Message-ID: <382fjl$i8d@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References:    
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu
X-ORIGINAL-NEWSGROUPS: alt.revisionism

greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:

# All that aside, any reasonable person reading this "report" would
# immediately suspect something is wrong. Where is this "house?" 

In Auschwitz. You couldn't figure this out yourself?

# Where are the hollow pillars? 

In the gas chamber. You couldn't figure this out yourself?

# What "certain substances are used? 

Franke-Gricksch was not a chemist, or a toxicologist. So, he didn't
specify the exact type of gas used. So what?

# How is it possible
# to open the doors a few minutes after a lethal gassing when a 
# deadly poison is supposedly still rampant in the air? 

The underground gas chambers had powerful ventilation systems. This
is well-known and even the "revisionists" don't deny this.

# How can the hair be cut off without
# first rinsing it of the poison gas? 

Using gloves, perhaps?

# Just how big is this house that it has
# elevators for hundreds of dead people? 

"House" might be a bad choice of a word, or maybe the meaning is
lost in the translation. He's obviously talking about Krema II
or III.

# Is it normal for large Polish houses to have ten large crematories? 

See above. But, what I really want to know is the following:

IS IT NORMAL FOR A "WORK CAMP" OR A "TRANSIT CAMP" TO HAVE FIVE
HUGE CREMATORIUMS WITH A TOTAL OF 52 CREMATION FURNACES?

What do you say, you "revisionist scholar" you?

# Anyone visiting the ruins of Leichenkeller I can see that the four
# pillars are not hollow at all, but are solid, which would have prevented
# anything from being dropped down them.

As Pressac and others note, the Zyklon was dropped in through
perforated metal columns, which were lowered into the chambers,
and not through the pillars which hold the roof.

# The mass gassing of
# millions of Jews (and millions of others) is no easy task, and would
# certainly leave behind some trace. 

Oh, it left many traces. "Revisionists" simply ignore them, or
claim they are forgeries, or not reliable, or whatever.


From the statement of Hans Stark, registrar of new arrivals, Auschwitz:
[Quoted in "'The Good Old Days'" - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The 
Free Press, NY, 1988, p. 255].
--------------------------------------------------------------
At another, later gassing -- also in autumn 1941 -- Grabner ordered
me to pour Zyklon B into the opening because only one medical orderly
had shown up. During a gassing Zyklon B had to be poured through both
openings of the gas-chamber room at the same time. This gassing was
also a transport of 200-250 Jews, once again men, women and children.
As the Zyklon B -- as already mentioned -- was in granular form, it
trickled down over the people as it was being poured in. They then
started to cry out terribly for they now knew what was happening to
them. I did not look through the opening because it had to be closed
as soon as the Zyklon B had been poured in. After a few minutes there
was silence. After some time had passed, it may have been ten to
fifteen minutes, the gas chamber was opened. The dead lay
higgledy-piggedly all over the place. It was a dreadful sight.




-Danny Keren.



Article 18015 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: The Great Debate
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 1994 09:59:54 GMT
Lines: 14

I see that dbtgthomas and Jamie McCarthy are squaring off for single
combat in a "formal debate."  Hey , what is this - the Society for
Creative Anachronism of something?  Let's back up a bit, but not that far. 
As I recall it, Wayne McGuire's original proposal was that there be two
teams, the revisionists vs. the anti-revisionists, and Wayne would act as
the moderator of the two teams. Each team would have a captain, who would
act as team spokesman, but he would, of course, base his postings on
material from the other team members. 

I've spent a lot of timae and effort getting revisionists on to the net,
and some of them have already indicated a willingness to participate in
the proposed debate.  I want to give them a chance to shine. 

                 Ross


Article 18037 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Great Debate
Date: 22 Oct 1994 23:14:08 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross
Vicksell) writes:

>I see that dbtgthomas and Jamie McCarthy are squaring off for single
>combat in a "formal debate."  Hey , what is this - the Society for
>Creative Anachronism of something?  Let's back up a bit, but not that
far. 
>As I recall it, Wayne McGuire's original proposal was that there be two
>teams, the revisionists vs. the anti-revisionists, and Wayne would act as
>the moderator of the two teams. Each team would have a captain, who would
>act as team spokesman, but he would, of course, base his postings on
>material from the other team members.

My primary interest in discussing the challenge for debate is less to
participate in same than to discuss what is being debated.  In my humble
(not notorious) opinion, the subject needs to be broken into several
segments for this to ever be more than a shouting match.  Could be wrong,
would like to throw out some ideas about it.  In the meantime, my
activities here are neither broad enough nor committed enough that they
should affect anything else in the works.  Proceed.  I'll continue the
discussion with Jamie McCarthy and see where it leads.


Article 18051 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Great Debate
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 1994 10:42:01 -0400
Organization: University of Michigan
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References: 
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codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote:

> I see that dbtgthomas and Jamie McCarthy are squaring off for single
> combat in a "formal debate."

I think you see differently than he or I.  We're having a very interesting
email discussion, but I don't think either of us intends to hold a formal
debate about anything.

> I've spent a lot of timae and effort getting revisionists on to the net,
> and some of them have already indicated a willingness to participate in
> the proposed debate.  I want to give them a chance to shine. 

And I want to give them every chance to flop.


Please note that my sentiments have changed in one significant way since
the beginning of the debate:  I won't accept Wayne McGuire as the
moderator.  Wayne has quite an occluded agenda, of which I was not aware
when I first accepted his terms.

I don't know who I'd want to moderate such a debate, but I do know I'd
prefer it to not be someone who claims that Jews are following in Hitler's
ideological footsteps, and that the next time they start losing a war
they'll just start nuking Arabs out of spite.  I've no idea where that
came from, but it indicates a modicum of partiality that I'd rather not
get tangled up in.

Plus, I doubt Wayne would be able to do the biggest part of a moderator's
job, which is to keep his mouth shut when necessary.


Perhaps we can work out a structure for discussion that won't require a
moderator.  All I really want to do is restrict discussion to the extent
that neither side can wander off-topic.  My view is that, when the chips
are down, revisionists' only recourse is to jump to another topic before
the ship sinks out from underneath them.  And I think that, if I can
only eliminate that option, I can drown them once and for all, if you'll
pardon the metaphor suddenly taking an unexpected violent turn.

Maybe something like:  each of us suggests a topic for initial
conversation, sufficiently broad to encompass meaningful discussion but
sufficiently narrow to allow focus.  We flip a coin to decide who gets
to go first.  After neither party has anything left to say about the
first topic, we switch to the second topic.  Then we begin again.

The topic can be anything we like.  My topics will probably be chosen
to try to prove various theses of mine, like the fact that revisionism
is self-contradictory, or the fact that revisionists ignore evidence to
make their points.  Your topics will probably be chosen to try to prove
that the Holocaust never happened.  (And I use the word "your" in the
plural sense -- either you, Ross, or the other revisionists you've
coaxed onto the net.)

Naturally, each of us would want to choose topics to make the best case
possible, so I'd expect that we'd each haul out the big guns first.

Sound fair so far?

Emailed to Mr. Vicksell.  Also emailed to Bradley Smith, who, as one of
the driving forces behind the promotion of "open debate," will doubtless
be enthusiastic to see such discussion taking shape.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "I am taking landpost's spelling as correct,
  I realize that is not risk-free"  - Daniel Rice


Article 18080 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Neo-nazis being paid $$$?  Sickening
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
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Date: Mon, 24 Oct 1994 03:45:23 GMT
Lines: 14

John Baglow (ai433@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) wrote:

: Dan Gannon, Vicksell, Raven, et al. have supported their lifestyles on
: the money they get from their neo-nazi propaganda. IHR is a cash cow for
: them. Leuchter, it seems, can afford some very exclusive S&M clubs on what
: he makes off Holocaust denial. And let's not forget Canada's Ernst Zuendel,
: who has grown fat and greasy and very, very wealthy selling nazi propaganda
: and memorabilia world-wide.


Of the people you mention, Greg and Ernst are the only people who are 
making money off revisionism.  Most of us are amateurs.

               Ross Vicksell


Article 18116 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Neo-nazis being paid $$$?  Sickening
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 13:05:54 -0400
Organization: Msen, Inc. -- Ann Arbor, MI (account info: +1 313 998-4562)
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codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote:

> John Baglow (ai433@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) wrote:
> 
> : Dan Gannon, Vicksell, Raven, et al. have supported their lifestyles on
> : the money they get from their neo-nazi propaganda.
> 
> Of the people you mention, Greg and Ernst are the only people who are 
> making money off revisionism.  Most of us are amateurs.

Let me get this absolutely clear.

You're saying, Mr. Vicksell, that Dan Gannon, Fred Leuchter, and yourself
are not making, and have not made, any money off "revisionism" or
Holocaust-denial?

And would you care to comment on some more people?  Bradley Smith,
Friedrich Berg, Arthur Butz, Jack Wikoff, and Robert Faurisson, maybe?

Emailed.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "I am taking landpost's spelling as correct,
  I realize that is not risk-free"  - Daniel Rice


Article 18135 of alt.revisionism:
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From: murungu@delphi.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What Bradley Smith finds funny
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 94 06:39:25 -0500
Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice)
Lines: 93
Message-ID: <5e01iPt.murungu@delphi.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1e.delphi.com
X-To: Michael P. Stein 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
 
 
[Michael Stein says...]
>Obviously, buckets don't levitate from the floor...
>And obviously, liquid blood doesn't literally spurt from the
>ground like Old Faithful.
 
Now wait a minute.  Why 'obviously'?  The story has been told
and it has been repeated by Elie Wiesel and others.  Are you
saying that they _LIED_?  Of course not.  They were merely
"in error".  They were "confused".  Is that what you would say?
We are not allowed to say that Jews "lied", right?
 
>But what *does* happen is that people see things - shocking,
>horrible things - and they describe them as best they can.  Sometimes
>the horror and raw emotion causes them to use strong imagery in their
>language - but you find a strong core of truth in what they say if
>you stop to analyze it slowly and honestly.
 
Oh come on now, Michael.  They either saw the jumping buckets or they
didn't.  And they didn't because buckets of flesh DO NOT JUMP.  And
THAT means that they LIED.  And that means that anybody wanting to
learn about the Holocaust must know that eyewitness accounts and
survivor testimony have to be verified as factual, that such accounts
need to be corroborated by physical evidence before they can stand up
as historical fact.
 
>The underlying scientific basis for the "geysers of blood" has been
>previously explained here.  The gas generated by decomposing bodies
>finally manages to break out from the ground rather suddenly when the
>spring thaw comes, or for that matter whenever the pressure from the gas
>becomes great enough enough to break out.  And so bits of dirt (and bits
>of bodies, because the gas is exploding out of the torsos) get thrown up
>into the air from the shallow graves as the pressure from the gas is
>finally stronger than the ground above it.
 
Michael Stein says it all.  He is telling us that the story is true.
He _wants_ us to believe the story.  Because Jews never lie you see.
The eyewitnesses and survivors of the Holocaust never lie.  Never.
ALL tales of the Holocaust are TRUE and that's it.  No discussion.
Finito.  The buckets of flesh jumped.  They geysers of blood spurted
from the ground.  The heads were shrunk.  The skin was made into
lampshades and the human fat was made into soap.  The stories were
told so they MUST be true.  We have it from Michael Stein.  To doubt
is to malign Jews, to malign religious dogma that has incorporated
the Holocaust as a new and central tenet.  No need to prove it.
It was said and therefore it happened.  There must have been a way!
 
>Not a geyser, exactly.  I think a "spring" of blood would be more
>accurate...
 
Now you are changing the story.  You can't take the story, the
tale, that was told by a survivor or an "eyewitness" and then
tailor it to make it more palatable, more believable.  If the
story is absurd, then it must be rejected in toto.  And the
spinner of the absurd story has NO credibility with anything else
that he/she has to say.  If they LIE, they are not credible as
"eyewitnesses".  This is obvious and yet it is resisted by the
true believers.
 
>So Bradley Smith is really laughing at his fellow simple workingmen
>who reacted with horror at bits of flesh and blood-soaked dirt and
>organs thrown up in the air by escaping gas, and described what they
>witnessed as "geysers of blood."
 
No.  Bradley Smith is laughing at the rediculous story as it was
related by Elie Wiesel, NOT the story as it has been tailored and
altered to a more fashionable fit by Michael Stein.  By doing the
alterations Michael is piling more lies upon the original lie.
Rather than protect the first lie with more lies, surely it would
be better to just jettison ALL lies.  Let's get rid of all the
stupid Holocaust lies and then have a look at what's left.  Then
maybe we can all get someplace.
 
>But - and I say this in all sincerity - I'm really glad that Mr.
>Smith himself was never forced to see such things.  Nobody should have
>to see such things.
 
Don't worry, Michael.  NOBODY ever saw such a thing because, quite
simply, it never happened.  Except in the neurotic sado-masochistic
fantasies of very sick people.
 
 
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Article 18136 of alt.revisionism:
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From: murungu@delphi.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What Bradley Smith finds funny
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 94 06:39:52 -0500
Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice)
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <5+81q-g.murungu@delphi.com>
References:   <37aedp$d5h@netaxs.com>  <37e4f2$fif@access4.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1e.delphi.com
X-To: Michael P. Stein 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
 
 
[Michael Stein says...]
>And in that morgue, limbs are suddenly severed and yet still
>occasionally twitch.  This is something that biology lab students can
>tell you happens, something farm kids who have seen chickens decapitated
>can tell you happens.  (Where do you think the expression, "Running
>around like a chicken with its head cut off" comes from?)  But maybe
>Filip Mu"ller (and Bradley Smith, for that matter) had never seen that
>happen before, had never even *heard* of that happening before...
>And one time when that twitching limb is in a bucket, and hits the
>side of the bucket, and it rocks or slides a little - well, if you're not
>prepared for that, have never seen or heard of anything like it, so you're
>suddenly confronted with something that looks like it's straight out of a
>Clive Barker horror novel - well, I think it might make a really strong
>impression on your mind.  So strong that the shock comes through in your
>description, and you say that the bucket "jumped."
 
I have seen dead snakes, after having been killed, still curling or
uncurling now and then.  I have to admit, it gave me a momentary fright
when I first witnessed this.  I had shot a very large poisonous snake
and when it started moving I thought for a second that I might have
missed and that it might wreak vengeance on me.  Later it turned out
to have been non-poisonous and I knew I needed to brush up on my
snake identification.  But I did not go around exaggerating the size
of the snake, or talking about "jumping buckets" of snakes, or anything
else absurd.  If I did, I would have rightly been ridiculed and called
a liar.  So why is "jumping buckets of flesh" when it comes to the
Holocaust a different situation?  We're talking, with this buckets thing,
of whole buckets jumping in the air, and of _living_ human flesh within
those buckets moving so much that the buckets actually take off again
and again into the air.  THAT IS THE STORY WE HAVE BEEN TOLD.  But
Michael Stein is saying that it was different but that somehow the
original story is still true.  Alter.  Change.  Incorporate.  Make
the story believable any which way one can, because survivors and
eyewitnesses never lie.  Never.  Riiiiight.
 
>...And so it's possible Mu"ller is lying - I'm perfectly willing
>to admit that I can't *prove* this specific story.
 
Why not just jettison it and be done with it?  You know he lied,
I know he lied, Bradley Smith knows he lied, and the readers of
these postings know he lied.  And we all know that to defend
such obvious lies is to discredit the entire Holocaust edifice
and to demonstrate dishonesty.  Take the jumping buckets of
flesh lie and throw it out with the trash.  Please.  Admit that
the story is a lie and let us move on.
 
 
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Article 18147 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Neo-nazis being paid $$$?  Sickening
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:  
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 1994 00:48:49 GMT
Lines: 42

Jamie McCarthy (k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu) wrote:
: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote:

: > John Baglow (ai433@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) wrote:
: > 
: > : Dan Gannon, Vicksell, Raven, et al. have supported their lifestyles on
: > : the money they get from their neo-nazi propaganda.
: > 
: > Of the people you mention, Greg and Ernst are the only people who are 
: > making money off revisionism.  Most of us are amateurs.

: Let me get this absolutely clear.

: You're saying, Mr. Vicksell, that Dan Gannon, Fred Leuchter, and yourself
: are not making, and have not made, any money off "revisionism" or
: Holocaust-denial?

Note I was talking present tense. Of course Fred got paid for doing
various reports for Ernst Zuendel.  But that was many moons ago.  I have
recieved small contributions from people in the past to help defray the
costs of leading revisionist demonstrations, but that too was many moons
ago.  To the best of my knowledge, nobody is financing Dan, but you'll have
to ask him. 

: And would you care to comment on some more people?  Bradley Smith,
: Friedrich Berg, Arthur Butz, Jack Wikoff, and Robert Faurisson, maybe?

Bradley does indeed make his living at revisionism, but he's living barely
above the subsistence level.  Neither Berg nor Butz are making any money
at it. The money Jack Wikoff makes selling Remarks is barely enough to
meet his publishing costs.  Faurisson does indeed get contributions from
various people, but he, too, is teetering on the brink of insolvency, on
account of all the law suits being brought against him. 

None of the above, myself included, are living very high on the hog.


: Emailed.
: -- 
:  Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
:  "I am taking landpost's spelling as correct,
:   I realize that is not risk-free"  - Daniel Rice


Article 18160 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: What Bradley Smith finds funny
In-Reply-To: murungu@delphi.com's message of Wed, 26 Oct 94 06:30:28 -0500
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  
	<37aedp$d5h@netaxs.com> 
	<37e4f2$fif@access4.digex.net> 
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 1994 20:52:08 GMT
Lines: 29


From: murungu@delphi.com
>I have tried a simple experiment and asked a few ordinary people about
>the Holocaust.  First I said how terrible the Nazis were.  They agreed.
>Then I said they did unbelievably evil things in the camps.  They agreed
>again.  Then I mentioned torture, beatings, killings, and so on, and
>eventually got around to the buckets of flesh that jumped.  My subjects
>then just smiled, and a couple even laughed.  One looked puzzled and
>just didn't believe that such a claim could ever have been made.  The
>others probably assumed that I just made it up as a joke or something.
>I assured them that such a story _had_ been claimed to be factual, and
>then I mentioned the geysers of blood, etc. to demonstrate that a
>number of such stories have been told.  They just couldn't believe it.

Well, since you believe their reactions to this and expect us to then
we can believe their reactions to the other items and expect you
to. Case closed on the bucket of flesh and geysers of blood, it didn't
happen, and case closed on the Nazi Holocaust, it did happen.

Fair enough?  Or are we only supposed to accept your method of proof
when it suits your particular belief system? Hey, it's *your*
experiment.


-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 18161 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: What Bradley Smith finds funny
In-Reply-To: murungu@delphi.com's message of Wed, 26 Oct 94 06:30:59 -0500
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  
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Date: Wed, 26 Oct 1994 20:54:20 GMT
Lines: 23


From: murungu@delphi.com
>You can tell people that xxxx number of millions of Jews were gassed
>and they don't bat an eyelid.  But if you talk about human lampshades,
>or shrunken heads, or suchlike, and their imagination comes alive and
>they get interested.  But when you talk about geysers of blood or
>jumping buckets of flesh, they just laugh.

Ok, we accept your methods:

1. xxxx millions of jews gassed - accepted as proven.

2. Human lampshades, shrunken heads - likely.

3. geysers of blood, jumping buckets of flesh -- unlikely.

Is there anything remaining to discuss? I think that settles it.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 18162 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Buckets of Flesh (was: Re: What Bradley Smith finds funny)
In-Reply-To: dzk@cs.brown.edu's message of 26 Oct 1994 12:27:42 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
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References:  
	<37e4f2$fif@access4.digex.net> <5+81q-g.murungu@delphi.com>
	<38lhvu$imu@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 1994 21:05:24 GMT
Lines: 51


From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
>First, to the best of my knowledge, Mueller doesn't speak English.
>In the film "Shoa", he talks in German. So, the word "jump" is
>probably a translation. Moreover, "jump" can just be a bad
>choice of word. He didn't say that the bucket actually lifted
>itself off the floor. 
>
>I can't believe I'm really debating these two clowns, who try to
>reduce the whole history of the Holocaust to one word in one
>sentence by one survivor of one camp... 

Remember that Bradley Smith insists that the bucket was doing the
lambada.  Pretty remarkable when the dance wasn't even invented for
another 40 years after.

Or that's certainly as accurate a depiction of his words as any
revisionist ever presents of others' words, particularly on this
issue.

Close enough, the word lambada appeared in his note, it had something
to do with the Mueller thing, point scored.

It's interesting how revisionists insist a priori that all survivor's
testimony is to be discounted EXCEPT when they find one word in one
survivor's testimony they think they can make some propaganda hay out
of.

I assume this means we can begin presenting survivor's testimony as
evidence again? Or are they still all liars from Mars who weren't even
on the planet during the Holocaust?

It's because they don't want to deal with the hard evidence, like the
Nazi memos documenting the holocaust.

Let's face it, if they had any answer to the hard evidence, the stuff
even they claim is of a form that is indisputable, they would have
presented it a long time ago. It has been 50 years, certainly several
years for most of the revisionists here during which times they've
managed to write long and tedious tracts about fund-raising speeches
made during WWI (yes that's a one) and human lampshades and
soap. Somehow they never get around to the obvious stuff (other than
the occasional "forgeries, all forgeries".)

Wonder why.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
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Article 18174 of alt.revisionism:
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From: murungu@delphi.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What Bradley Smith finds funny
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 94 06:30:28 -0500
Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice)
Lines: 60
Message-ID: 
References:   <37aedp$d5h@netaxs.com>  <37e4f2$fif@access4.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1e.delphi.com
X-To: Michael P. Stein 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
 
 
[Bradley Smith says...]
>Keren believes Muller's testimony in Shoah is "rather accurate:"  Maybe it
>is. On the other hand, who's going to trust a man who "testifies" that he
>watched a bucket of human flesh "jump about" on a crematory floor?...
>Longshoreman and other workers laugh at that kind of stuff and are
>contemputous of the professors who would have them believe it...
>I'd love to watch Danny Keren down on the waterfront trying to convince
>the workers there that he can make a bucket of flesh dance the samba for
>them...
>On the other hand, the Filip Muellers and Danny Kerens appear to be meant
>for each other. They represent two generations of a sado-masochistic cult
>that is growing ever more ludicrous in the eyes of the people,
>particularly among working men and women.
 
We have a situation where believiers in this rubbish present rationales
as to how such a story of jumping buckets of flesh _could_ be true, and
therefore _must_ be true, and it is up to us to prove that it is _not_
true.  The onus is on revisionists, you see, to demonstrate the falsehood.
Apparently the onus is NOT on anybody to prove that the stories are true.
So one can just invent a story, no matter how wild, and it's up to the
listener to disprove you.  If he cannot disprove you, then the story
must be true.  I see this "logic" being used over and over again in
these AR postings.  Readers can see this for themselves by just
browsing around AR.
 
I have tried a simple experiment and asked a few ordinary people about
the Holocaust.  First I said how terrible the Nazis were.  They agreed.
Then I said they did unbelievably evil things in the camps.  They agreed
again.  Then I mentioned torture, beatings, killings, and so on, and
eventually got around to the buckets of flesh that jumped.  My subjects
then just smiled, and a couple even laughed.  One looked puzzled and
just didn't believe that such a claim could ever have been made.  The
others probably assumed that I just made it up as a joke or something.
I assured them that such a story _had_ been claimed to be factual, and
then I mentioned the geysers of blood, etc. to demonstrate that a
number of such stories have been told.  They just couldn't believe it.
 
The story is indeed made up, but not by me.  I think that to believe in
such nonsense reflects a genuine sickness, and/or some kind of religious
dogmatic fervor of belief, in which any and all stories, no matter how
absurd, _must_ be believable and true.  Readers of these AR postings
from around the world have to seriously ask themselves if such a story
could possibly be true, who made it up, why, and above all _why_ is
such a story still being defended by people here in AR.  Ordinary,
mentally healthy people will not be taken in by such idiotic rubbish as
jumping buckets of flesh.
 
 
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Article 18175 of alt.revisionism:
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From: murungu@delphi.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What Bradley Smith finds funny
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 94 06:30:59 -0500
Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice)
Lines: 53
Message-ID: 
References:   <37aedp$d5h@netaxs.com>  <37e4f2$fif@access4.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1e.delphi.com
X-To: Michael P. Stein 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
 
 
[Bradley Smith says...]
>For those of you who have had enough of Filip "Jumping-Buckets-
>of-Flesh" Mueller I give you:...
>Elie "Geysers-of-Blood" Wiesel...
>Elie reports that after the fighting at Kiev that a mass-killing
>of Jews took place in the Babi Yar ravine and that:...
>"Eyewitnesses say that for months after the killings the ground
>continued to spurt geysers of blood."
 
I have seen in AR a Jewish person defending this story, saying that
it _could_ be true.  He talked about gasses being trapped in human
flesh, about the ground being disturbed sometime afterwards, the
flesh being disturbed, gasses released and in turn by doing so the
blood being pumped out etc etc.  He gave what he thought was a
plausible rendering of events that would make the "geysers of blood"
believable and true and defensible.  Let each reader judge for himself
this thing, and judge the tale-spinner and the defenders of such tales.
 
I have said it before: such tales are the real crux of the Holocaust.
You can tell people that xxxx number of millions of Jews were gassed
and they don't bat an eyelid.  But if you talk about human lampshades,
or shrunken heads, or suchlike, and their imagination comes alive and
they get interested.  But when you talk about geysers of blood or
jumping buckets of flesh, they just laugh.  What makes Jews think that
people are so stupid that they will give credence to such rubbish?
 
The only people who seem to accept this garbage as factual are fanatical
true believing Jews.  I don't say this to ridicule Jews necessarily,
but to point out that religious belief, and paranoia, and persecution
mania, when taken to extremes, probably leads to this insanity of
belief in the most idiotic rubbish.  I think that many Jews who
promote such rubbish as factual history have lost their perspective
on what is real and what is not real.  I believe that many Jews, very
possibly the majority of Jews, do not accept such stories, and laugh
at such stories _privately_.  But they are afraid to speak out and
denounce such lies because their greater community won't allow any
criticism of the Holocaust.  This has got to change because the
spinners of such lies are placing the credibility of all Jews in
question.
 
 
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Article 18182 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Buckets of Flesh (was: Re: What Bradley Smith finds funny)
Date: 26 Oct 1994 12:27:42 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <38lhvu$imu@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References:   <37e4f2$fif@access4.digex.net> <5+81q-g.murungu@delphi.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

This whole insane thread revolves on one word used by Philip
Mueller, a Jewish survivor of Auschwitz. Both B. Smith (who
wrote that Mueller is worth less than an animal) and this
"murungu" nut, keep posting that Mueller, and therefore many
others survivors, cannot be trusted because Mueller told that
when SS men cut pieces from people that were just shot, and
threw them into a bucket, it "jumped about".

Now, they seem to agree that large chunks of muscles torn from
a person (or an animal) that was just shot, and may still be
alive, can twitch and move about. "murungu" said he witnessed
it himself. The only thing left for them is to cling to the
word "jump" which Mueller used. 

First, to the best of my knowledge, Mueller doesn't speak English.
In the film "Shoa", he talks in German. So, the word "jump" is
probably a translation. Moreover, "jump" can just be a bad
choice of word. He didn't say that the bucket actually lifted
itself off the floor. 

I can't believe I'm really debating these two clowns, who try to
reduce the whole history of the Holocaust to one word in one
sentence by one survivor of one camp... 

Is this what is meant by "revisionism is the great intellectual
adventure of the century"? Phew.


-Danny Keren.



Article 18192 of alt.revisionism:
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From: misrael@scripps.edu (Mark Israel)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Neo-nazis being paid $$$?  Sickening
Date: 26 Oct 1994 05:45:24 GMT
Organization: The Scripps Research Institute, La Jolla, California, USA
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <38kqdk$278@riscsm.scripps.edu>
References: <38b869$adf@newsbf01.news.aol.com>  
NNTP-Posting-Host: struct.scripps.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:
> In article , ai433@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (John Baglow) writes:

>> Dan Gannon, Vicksell, Raven, et al. have supported their lifestyles on
>> the money they get from their neo-nazi propaganda. IHR is a cash cow for
>> them. Leuchter, it seems, can afford some very exclusive S&M clubs on what
>> he makes off Holocaust denial. And let's not forget Canada's Ernst Zuendel,
>> who has grown fat and greasy and very, very wealthy selling nazi propaganda
>> and memorabilia world-wide.
>
> Of the people you mention, Greg and Ernst are the only people who are 
> making money off revisionism.  Most of us are amateurs.

   Dan Gannon's for-profit BBS is losing money?  Why is he such a poor 
businessman?

--
misrael@scripps.edu			Mark Israel


Article 18203 of alt.revisionism:
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From: misrael@scripps.edu (Mark Israel)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Neo-nazis being paid $$$?  Sickening
Date: 27 Oct 1994 08:52:35 GMT
Organization: The Scripps Research Institute, La Jolla, California, USA
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Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:

> Bradley does indeed make his living at revisionism, but he's living barely
> above the subsistence level.  Neither Berg nor Butz are making any money
> at it. The money Jack Wikoff makes selling Remarks is barely enough to
> meet his publishing costs.  Faurisson does indeed get contributions from
> various people, but he, too, is teetering on the brink of insolvency, on
> account of all the law suits being brought against him. 
>
> None of the above, myself included, are living very high on the hog.

   Who, then, got the ten million dollars that Thomas Edison's 
granddaughter bequeathed?

--
misrael@scripps.edu			Mark Israel


Article 18206 of alt.revisionism:
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From: spok+@cs.cmu.edu (John Ockerbloom)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What Bradley Smith finds funny
Date: 27 Oct 1994 20:25:11 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <38p2b7$4c2@casaba.srv.cs.cmu.edu>
References:   <37e4f2$fif@access4.digex.net> <5+81q-g.murungu@delphi.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: gs1.sp.cs.cmu.edu

In article <5+81q-g.murungu@delphi.com>,   wrote:
>We're talking, with this buckets thing,
>of whole buckets jumping in the air, and of _living_ human flesh within
>those buckets moving so much that the buckets actually take off again
>and again into the air.  THAT IS THE STORY WE HAVE BEEN TOLD.

Told by whom?  By Mu"ller?  I don't recall him saying anything about
"taking off again and again into the air".  The translation of his
story talks about "jumping about", which isn't nearly the same thing.

Were you told by "revisionists"?  If so, and their story doesn't
match Mu"ller's, then the responsibility for distortion lies with those
revisionists, doesn't it?

Or, if you can't point out a particular person who said the bucket was
"taking off again and again into the air", then the responsibility
lies with you.

So, who's responsible for the "taking off again and again into the air"
story?  Name someone, and document where they said it.

I also find it a bit interesting that you say in another article:

> The only people who seem to accept this garbage as factual are fanatical
> true believing Jews.  I don't say this to ridicule Jews necessarily,

when a number of the people here who have argued that Mu"ller's story
cannot be dismissed out of hand have been non-Jews.  Have you not
noticed these posts, or are you ignoring them, or were you just
assuming without evidence that everyone defending Mu"ller was Jewish?

John Ockerbloom
-- 
==========================================================================
ockerbloom@cs.cmu.edu            1603 Beechwood Blvd., Pittsburgh PA 15217


Article 18252 of alt.revisionism:
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From: golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What Bradley Smith finds funny
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 1994 22:34:45 -0600
Organization: MCSNet Services
Lines: 51
Message-ID: 
References:   <37aedp$d5h@netaxs.com>  <37e4f2$fif@access4.digex.net> <5+81q-g.murungu@delphi.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: golux.pr.mcs.net

In article <5+81q-g.murungu@delphi.com>, murungu@delphi.com wrote:

>"jumping buckets"
>"jumping buckets of flesh"
> We're talking, with this buckets thing,
> of whole buckets jumping in the air, and of _living_ human flesh within
> those buckets moving so much that the buckets actually take off again
> and again into the air.  THAT IS THE STORY WE HAVE BEEN TOLD.

Yes, and THAT IS THE STORY YOU HAVE BEEN TOLD BY BRADLEY R. SMITH.  Filip
Mueller never used the words "jumping buckets of flesh."  He never said
"the buckets jumped off the ground" or "the living human flesh within the
buckets made the buckets take off again and again into the air."

Do you understand that?  HE NEVER SAID IT.

What Mr. Mueller said -- in a single portion of his much longer
description of the camps -- was that he saw freshly-stripped flesh placed
in a bucket and that the flesh caused the bucket to "jump about."  (I am
sure someone can post the full quote, since I don't have it handy.)

He NEVER said "jumping buckets of flesh."
He NEVER said "the Nazis had to chase the leaping bucket around the lab."
He NEVER said "jumping in the air."
He NEVER said "the living human flesh made the buckets take off again and
again."

The first two of the above statements are the creations of Bradley R.
Smith, one of which you have repeated here.

The last two of the above statements are your OWN creation.

They have NOTHING to do with what Filip Mueller described.

Do you understand this, Mr. "murungu"?

Now, if you will post the entire Mueller quote in context and explain why
THAT must be a lie, without resorting to Smith's or your own exaggerated
interpretations, then perhaps that part of Mr. Mueller's story bears
re-examination.  But so far, all you're suggesting is that we discard
Smith's and your exaggerations.  Fine.  I reject them.  I denounce them as
lies.  I have no reason to disbelieve Mueller's description of what he
saw.

Posted and emailed.

-- 
D. J. Schaeffer |       The Todal looks like a blob of glup.
golux@mcs.com   |     It makes a sound like rabbits screaming,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^        and smells of old, unopened rooms.
                            -- Thurber, _The 13 Clocks_


Article 18265 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: What Bradley Smith finds funny
In-Reply-To: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu's message of 28 Oct 94 00:52:37 -0500
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  
	 <1994Oct28.005237.32500@miavx1>
Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 23:02:15 GMT
Lines: 41


From: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov)
>I've still not seen any 'revisionists' provide any convincing
>reasons why a thousand or so corpses in a shallow grave 
>would not heave and throw up earth, often with human remains. 

Over 30,000 corpses. Even according to the Einsatzgruppen's own
reports back to Berlin:

--------------------
Einsatzgruppe C
Standort Kiev

In collaboration with the group staff and two Kommandos of Police
Regiment South, on 29 and 30 September 1941 Sonderkommando 4a executed
33,771 Jews in Kiev.

	Ereignismeldung UdSSR, No. 101, 2 October 1941

--------------------

(Babi Yar being the ravine just outside of Kiev where the actual
killings took place.)

30,000 human corpses is something over 3 million pounds.

3+Million pounds of dead, rotting bodies in a shallow grave.

Think about what becomes of just a few ounces of rotting meat, which
has most of the more liquid portions removed, forgotten in your
refrigerator. Now try to imagine 3 million pounds of it heaped into a
shallow grave and exposed to the elements, mixed with rain, etc.

I'm *sure* this is a situation our revisionist friends are most
familiar with and can tell us all about...NOT!

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 18271 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu!miavx1!bpharmon
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What Bradley Smith finds funny
Message-ID: <1994Oct28.004355.32499@miavx1>
From: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov)
Date: 28 Oct 94 00:43:55 -0500
References:     
Organization: Miami University
Lines: 55

In article , murungu@delphi.com writes:
>  
> We have a situation where believiers in this rubbish present rationales
> as to how such a story of jumping buckets of flesh _could_ be true, and
> therefore _must_ be true, and it is up to us to prove that it is _not_
> true.  The onus is on revisionists, you see, to demonstrate the falsehood.
> Apparently the onus is NOT on anybody to prove that the stories are true.
> So one can just invent a story, no matter how wild, and it's up to the
> listener to disprove you.  If he cannot disprove you, then the story
> must be true.  I see this "logic" being used over and over again in
> these AR postings.  Readers can see this for themselves by just
> browsing around AR.

Look, I assume this "jumping buckets" story is your attempt to 
disprove what Mu"ller says he saw.  The conclusion that you're 
grasping for is that Mu"ller did _not_ see medical doctors remove
tissue from recently killed inmates for use in experiments.

Your whole argument rests on the translation of Mu"ller's 
testimony that mentions the jumping buckets.

Is this a correct characterization of your claim?  

Of course, there's one thing you've forgotten:

in his Diary, Dr. Kremer discusses removing organs from 
recently killed inmates for use in experiments, on a day
by day basis.  

so then, all of these complaints about Mu"ller's testimony 
are a bit silly, aren't they?  Even if we throw every word
that Mu"ller ever said into the wastecan, we still have
Kremer's testimony and diary.  We also still have Ho"ss, 
Broad, Stark, Eichmann, Valliant-Courtier, and countless 
others.  

All of this obsessing about one detail of one part of
one person's testimony is ridiculous.  A more telling analysis
would show gross errors and inconsistencies between all 
the witnesses.  In all the time I've been sifting through
this nonsense, I've never seen any systematic analysis of the
available evidence.  

rather, you goofs have simply screamed about one or two things, 
whether it be Elie Wiesel's story about Babi Yar or Mu"ller's 
apparent hyperbole when describing medical dissection of 
murdered inmates.

\
=======================================================================
Brian Harmon	     "The world is on its elbows and knees;
Miami University	It has forgotten the message and worships
Ohio 45056			the creeds!"
WHUT R U LOOKIN AT?			-- Matt Johnson
--------------bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu--------------------------


Article 18272 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu!miavx1!bpharmon
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What Bradley Smith finds funny
Message-ID: <1994Oct28.005237.32500@miavx1>
From: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov)
Date: 28 Oct 94 00:52:37 -0500
References:     
Organization: Miami University
Lines: 46

In article , murungu@delphi.com writes:
>  
> I have seen in AR a Jewish person defending this story, saying that
> it _could_ be true.  

Out of curiosity, how did you _know_ this person was Jewish?
did you use Jim Bowery's method of analysis?

I've still not seen any 'revisionists' provide any convincing
reasons why a thousand or so corpses in a shallow grave 
would not heave and throw up earth, often with human remains. 

Particularly after they began to rot....

> The only people who seem to accept this garbage as factual are fanatical
> true believing Jews.  I don't say this to ridicule Jews necessarily,

evidence please?  

I happen to believe this story, and just by coincidence 
I'm not Jewish either.

> on what is real and what is not real.  I believe that many Jews, very
> possibly the majority of Jews, do not accept such stories, and laugh
> at such stories _privately_.  But they are afraid to speak out and
> denounce such lies because their greater community won't allow any
> criticism of the Holocaust.  This has got to change because the
> spinners of such lies are placing the credibility of all Jews in
> question.

Oh yes, of course!  It's another INTERNATIONAL JEWISH CONSPIRACY!
this one blinkers and coerces other Jews from seeking the
truth!

gimme a break!

You think that _no_one_ out of millions involved in such 
a thing would _not_ come forward?


=======================================================================
Brian Harmon	     "The world is on its elbows and knees;
Miami University	It has forgotten the message and worships
Ohio 45056			the creeds!"
WHUT R U LOOKIN AT?			-- Matt Johnson
--------------bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu--------------------------


Article 18273 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu!miavx1!bpharmon
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What Bradley Smith finds funny
Message-ID: <1994Oct28.005648.32501@miavx1>
From: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov)
Date: 28 Oct 94 00:56:48 -0500
References:     <5+81q-g.murungu@delphi.com>
Organization: Miami University
Lines: 31

In article <5+81q-g.murungu@delphi.com>, murungu@delphi.com writes:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Mr. Murungu comments on the lifelike activity of muscles
in recently dead animals:

> I have seen dead snakes, after having been killed, still curling or
> uncurling now and then.  I have to admit, it gave me a momentary fright
> when I first witnessed this.  I had shot a very large poisonous snake
> and when it started moving I thought for a second that I might have
> missed and that it might wreak vengeance on me.  Later it turned out
> to have been non-poisonous and I knew I needed to brush up on my
> snake identification.  But I did not go around exaggerating the size
> of the snake, or talking about "jumping buckets" of snakes, or anything
> else absurd.  If I did, I would have rightly been ridiculed and called
> a liar. 

Then again, you did not also witness the murder of 
thousands of people, which might have a pretty adverse
affect on your ability to be rational.

You also did not write the story down in a different
language, and then have someone else (other than you)
translate it.

=======================================================================
Brian Harmon	     "The world is on its elbows and knees;
Miami University	It has forgotten the message and worships
Ohio 45056			the creeds!"
WHUT R U LOOKIN AT?			-- Matt Johnson
--------------bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu--------------------------


Article 18296 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Neo-nazis being paid $$$?  Sickening
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Murungu puts the Holocaust "business" in perspective, but fails to 
mention the biggest beneficiary of them all, Israel.

                Ross Vicksell


Article 18302 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Murungu presents fantasy as truth
Date: 27 Oct 1994 17:47 MST
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In article , k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) writes...
>Filip Mueller's original words were:

>   The muscles of those who had been shot were still working and
>   contracting, making the bucket jump about.

    Actually, Mueller's comment was in German.  It would be interesting to
    see what he actually said in German and see how our linguistic experts
    in a.r would translate it.

===========================================================================
daniel david mittleman     -     danny@arizona.edu     -     (602) 621-2932


Article 18326 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Neo-nazis being paid $$$?  Sickening
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 1994 10:31:09 -0400
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codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote:

> Jamie McCarthy (k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu) wrote:
> : codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:
> 
> : >Neither Berg nor Butz are making any money at it.
> 
> : Butz doesn't get royalties from his book?  You know, the book that
> : Greg Raven advertises in his .signature?
> 
> I suppose so, but it's not exactly a best seller.

In other words, Butz _is_ still making money off revisionism.

> : Berg didn't get paid for his articles in the JHR?  Or has Berg stopped
> : writing?
> 
> Nothing of his has appeared in the JHR since the Winter of '88, according 
> to Greg Raven's index.  Possibly an article based on the speech he gave at 
> the last conference will appear in the Journal at some point.

And was Berg paid for this speech he delivered?

Just want to get the facts straight, here.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "I am taking landpost's spelling as correct,
  I realize that is not risk-free"  - Daniel Rice


Article 18335 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Neo-nazis being paid $$$?  Sickening
Message-ID: 
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Jamie McCarthy (k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu) wrote:
: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:

: >Neither Berg nor Butz are making any money at it.

: Butz doesn't get royalties from his book?  You know, the book that
: Greg Raven advertises in his .signature?

I suppose so, but it's not exactly a best seller.

: Berg didn't get paid for his articles in the JHR?  Or has Berg stopped
: writing?

Nothing of his has appeared in the JHR since the Winter of '88, according 
to Greg Raven's index.  Possibly an article based on the speech he gave at 
the last conference will appear in the Journal at some point.

                 Ross Vicksell


Article 18359 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What Bradley Smith finds funny
Date: 30 Oct 1994 18:10:14 -0500
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In article <1994Oct28.005237.32500@miavx1>,
Raskolnikov  wrote:
>In article , murungu@delphi.com writes:
>>  
>> I have seen in AR a Jewish person defending this story, saying that
>> it _could_ be true.  
>
>Out of curiosity, how did you _know_ this person was Jewish?
>did you use Jim Bowery's method of analysis?

    Out of fairness to Murungu, he of course meant me, and given not only 
my name but the fact that I'm currently tormenting Michael Hoffman over 
his Hebrew, I think Murungu's conclusion is justified, and moreover, 
correct.  (Michael Hoffman and Rick Savage would disagree, calling me a 
Khazar, although there is a rather obvious reason why this could not be 
entirely true.)

    Completely unjustified, however, was Murungu's apparent assumption
that the witness who told Wiesel that he had seen "geysers of blood" was
Jewish.  Indeed, given the slaughter, it would seem that the person who
told Wiesel that was almost certainly *not* Jewish. 
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 18360 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What Murungu finds unbelievable
Supersedes: <390mmu$d5r@access4.digex.net>
Date: 30 Oct 1994 18:15:05 -0500
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In article <5e01iPt.murungu@delphi.com>,   wrote:
>[Michael Stein says...]
>>Obviously, buckets don't levitate from the floor...
>>And obviously, liquid blood doesn't literally spurt from the
>>ground like Old Faithful.
> 
>Now wait a minute.  Why 'obviously'?  The story has been told
>and it has been repeated by Elie Wiesel and others.

    First of all, Elie Wiesel did not originate the geyser story; he
repeated that someone told this to him.  Are you saying nobody ever told
Wiesel any such thing, and that he made it all up?  Where is your proof? 

>Are you saying that they _LIED_?  Of course not.  They were merely
>"in error".  They were "confused".  Is that what you would say?

    I would say in the case of Mu"ller you are the one in error in your 
insistence that "jump about" *must* mean completely leave the ground.  
Cf. Webster's New Universal Unabridged, 2nd ed, def. 2: "To be moved with 
a jerk, to bob, to bounce."  In the other case, I would indeed say they 
were in error in the interpretation of what they saw.

    I have a simple yes/no question for you to which I would like an
answer.  If someone says they saw something which is not 100% literally
true according to *your* interpretation, does it necessarily mean that
they didn't even see anything like it, that it must always be a deliberate
fabrication or hallucination and have *no* basis in reality? 

    My own answer is no.  I believe, for example, that a large number of
people who claim to have seen "UFOs" have actually seen lights in the sky
- but what they saw were easily-explainable phenomena such as unusual
airplane lights which for some reason they did not correctly identify.  
They did not lie, they *were* indeed merely in error.  Apparently Murungu 
thinks that they saw absolutely nothing and made the whole thing up.


>We are not allowed to say that Jews "lied", right?

    I don't like to say *anyone* lied without proof, as you would know if
you had seen my rebuke of Daniel Keren for calling Milt Kleim a liar about
having read something somewhere, but not being able to produce the book. 


>Oh come on now, Michael.  They either saw the jumping buckets or they
>didn't.  And they didn't because buckets of flesh DO NOT JUMP.  And
>THAT means that they LIED.

    Please take a course in remedial reading and remedial logic.  First,
Mu"ller described *one* moving bucket.  Second, the idea that either the
bucket completely lept high into the air or didn't move at all is a false
dichotomy.  Third, refer to the dictionary definition of "jump" reproduced
above.  Fourth, the conclusion does not follow.

    Another simple question for Murungu: If Mu"ller had said "The bucket 
rocked around" rather than "jumped about," would you withdraw your 
objection?

    One last simple question: is there anything else in the testimony of 
Filip Mu"ller you find unbelievable on the face of it?


>And that means that anybody wanting to learn about the Holocaust must 
>know that eyewitness accounts and survivor testimony have to be verified 
>as factual, that such accounts need to be corroborated by physical 
>evidence before they can stand up as historical fact.

    Another false conclusion.  Eyewitness accounts can also be verified 
by other eyewitness accounts.  Mu"ller is not the only person who 
testified to gassings.  How did *all* those people come to tell the 
*same* lie?  And why did the people at Auschwitz all make up a Zyklon 
lie, and the people at the Reinhard camps make up an engine exhaust lie?

    Statistically, this could not happen by coincidence.  Therefore this 
could only have happened by some conspiracy.  Where is your evidence for 
this conspiracy?  Who took part in it?  How was it organized?  

    Also, testimony must be analyzed as a whole.  That is, if a witness
makes one easily explainable error (such as using "jump" instead of
"rock," even though from the definition given earlier it's not even clear
that "jump" is really a wrong verb usage), in a testimony which is
otherwise solid and credible, that error is not enough to call into
question everything else which was said. 


>>The underlying scientific basis for the "geysers of blood" has been
>>previously explained here.  The gas generated by decomposing bodies
>>finally manages to break out from the ground rather suddenly when the
>>spring thaw comes, or for that matter whenever the pressure from the gas
>>becomes great enough enough to break out.  And so bits of dirt (and bits
>>of bodies, because the gas is exploding out of the torsos) get thrown up
>>into the air from the shallow graves as the pressure from the gas is
>>finally stronger than the ground above it.
> 
>Michael Stein says it all.  He is telling us that the story is true.

    I am telling you that there is good reason to think it was not a
complete invention, that there is good reason to believe the witnesses
*did* see something resembling what they described even if they did not 
use the same words Murungu would have used.


>He _wants_ us to believe the story.

    I want you to realize that an honest and objective analysis of
testimony requires that one consider not only how it can be false, but how
it can also be true to the best of the witness's ability to describe
things, even if Murungu feels he can describe it better. 

    Murungu wants us to *disbelieve* the story.  Not just that it 
didn't happen *literally*, but that NOTHING EVEN REMOTELY LIKE IT 
happened.  That's what he's insinuating.

    You know, I myself first disbelieved the geysers testimony when I 
first saw it.  Then Danny Keren posted the entirely credible story from 
(I think) Reitlinger's book.  I believe that people are mistaken far more 
often than they tell outright lies, that's all.  And I believe this 
consistently - not just for the Holocaust, but in other cases as well.


>Because Jews never lie you see.

    Who said that the person who told Wiesel that there were geysers of 
blood was Jewish?

    Of course people do lie, including Jews.  And people, including Jews,
get hysterical.  But which is likelier - that someone made up a story out
of whole cloth, or that they did see something reasonably close to what
they saw, something terrifying, something which sounds reasonably like
other calmer eyewitness testimony?  I think it's the latter.  Murungu says
it's the former, but he doesn't say why he believes that, or whether he
uses the same principle consistently (i.e., in cases which have nothing to
do with the Holocaust).

>The eyewitnesses and survivors of the Holocaust never lie.  Never.
>ALL tales of the Holocaust are TRUE and that's it.  No discussion.
>Finito.

    False.  I do believe that people in general tell the truth as best 
they perceive it.  And I'm willing to discuss it; Murungu is the one who 
simply says "anything which has anything wrong with it must be a complete 
and total fabrication" with no reasons offered for taking this position.


>The buckets of flesh jumped.

    According to the definition of "jump" given above, this would be 
possible - Murungu himself says he has seen the phenomenon of muscles 
continuing to work after death.


>They geysers of blood spurted from the ground.

    Two other eyewitness testimonies, entirely credible on the face of
them, said something came up from the ground from shallow graves.  Yet
Murungu is trying to convince people that the third testimony CANNOT
POSSIBLY have been an exaggeration, it was COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY MADE UP
FROM NOTHING and there is NO OTHER POSSIBLITY THAN A DELIBERATE LIE.  I
say that's false, there *is* another possibility. 


>The heads were shrunk.  

    There are heads in a museum.  Their existence is not debatable.  
Murungu seems to be suggesting that the U. S. Army made them, or that 
they were made by the Germans but were just clever Naugahyde imitations.

    But he still hasn't given one reason for this idea.  All he's saying 
is that *he* can't believe that Germans could make them, though he's 
perfectly capable of believing that the U. S. Army made them.

    Murungu says, "They're fakes and that's it.  No discussion is
possible." 


>The skin was made into lampshades

    *Something* was made into lampshades.  They were introduced into 
evidence.  Murungu says, "They're fakes and that's it.  No discussion is 
possible."


>and the human fat was made into soap.  The stories were
>told so they MUST be true.  We have it from Michael Stein.

    No, the stories were told by three witnesses; you have that from Mazur
and two British POWs who claimed to have been direct participants. 
Furthermore, there is probabilistic corroboration in that the Danzig
Institute also did other experiments on the use of human fat.  What you
have from me is this: for the reasons given above - multiple corroborative
testimonies and the existence of similar activities - there is a strong
presumption that the testimonies are true unless and until other evidence
comes forward to cast doubt on them. 

    Murungu does not provide any such evidence.


>To doubt is to malign Jews,

    It is also to reject the principles by which modern courts and 
historians work.

>to malign religious dogma

    There is actual evidence; it is not dogma.  Murungu is the dogmatic
one here; he has yet to give a single reason to believe that the U. S. 
Army fabricated shrunken heads, yet since he clearly does not belive that
Germans produced them, either supernatural forces or the U. S. Army would
seem to be the only other source.  Whether he explicitly admits it or not,
by logical necessity Murungu believes - without a scrap of evidence - that
the U. S. Army produced shrunken heads, or they miraculously appeared.  
Religious dogma, QED.


>No need to prove it.

    Murungu obviously feels no need to offer any evidence.  Even when 
incontroverable physical objects are found, "IT DIDN'T HAPPEN!  THEY'RE 
FAKE!" is, he feels, all he needs to say.  Religious dogma.


>It was said and therefore it happened.  There must have been a way!
> 
>>Not a geyser, exactly.  I think a "spring" of blood would be more
>>accurate...
> 
>Now you are changing the story.  You can't take the story, the
>tale, that was told by a survivor or an "eyewitness" and then
>tailor it to make it more palatable, more believable.  If the
>story is absurd, then it must be rejected in toto.

    False.  This is simply not a valid method of reasoning.  Murungu takes
the entirely one-sided view that any plausible story must be analyzed to
the Nth degree so that one tiny wording ambiguity (e.g., the precise
meaning intended by "jump") can be used to label the story absurd, so that
EVERYTHING the witness says can be rejected "in toto."  However, Murungu
says implausible stories are not allowed to be analyzed to see if there is
a basis in fact which would allow us to conclude that the statement is the
result of interpretational error, not deliberate lie or mental illness.

    Murungu's double standard is clear.


>And the spinner of the absurd story has NO credibility with anything else
>that he/she has to say.  If they LIE, they are not credible as
>"eyewitnesses".  This is obvious and yet it is resisted by the
>true believers.

Fine.  Let's judge Murungu by his own standards.  In article 
, Murungu wrote:
>The bigger the lies being told [I was gassed!  I was gassed 5 times!  I was
>gassed 50 times!], the bigger the payout.

    Nobody has claimed to be gassed 50 times.  This is absurd.  Therefore 
Murungu has LIED, and nothing he says has any credibility.  We simply 
cannot examine the possibility that he has exaggerated; this is a 
hallucination or a lie and Murungu can safely be dismissed "in toto."

    Right, Murungu?  I mean, that's your own standard.  The same goes for
Bradley Smith and his "lambada."  Mu"ller never said such a thing. 
Therefore Bradley Smith is a LIAR and EVERYTHING Bradley Smith says can be
discarded.  Right, Murungu?  Your rules, after all, not mine.  Still sure 
you want to play by them?

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 18366 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Neo-nazis being paid $$$?  Sickening
Date: 30 Oct 1994 13:06:10 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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References:   
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article ,
Ross Vicksell  wrote:
>Jamie McCarthy (k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu) wrote:
>: Berg didn't get paid for his articles in the JHR?  Or has Berg stopped
>: writing?
>
>Nothing of his has appeared in the JHR since the Winter of '88, according 
>to Greg Raven's index.

    Not responsive to the first question.  Does the JHR pay for articles 
or doesn't it - or if it does now but didn't at first, when did it start?
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 18369 of alt.revisionism:
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Neo-nazis being paid $$$?  Sickening
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:    <38npoj$39j@riscsm.scripps.edu>
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 02:48:11 GMT
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Mark Israel (misrael@scripps.edu) wrote:
: In article , 
: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes:

: > Bradley does indeed make his living at revisionism, but he's living barely
: > above the subsistence level.  Neither Berg nor Butz are making any money
: > at it. The money Jack Wikoff makes selling Remarks is barely enough to
: > meet his publishing costs.  Faurisson does indeed get contributions from
: > various people, but he, too, is teetering on the brink of insolvency, on
: > account of all the law suits being brought against him. 
: >
: > None of the above, myself included, are living very high on the hog.

:    Who, then, got the ten million dollars that Thomas Edison's 
: granddaughter bequeathed?

It was left to the Legion for the Survival of Freedom. the parent 
corporation of the IHR.  Willis Carto, despite the fact that he had no 
position in the IHR other than unpaid "agent", and presumably no official 
position in the Legion either, took control of the money. He claims that 
what didn't go for legal expenses or taxes was spent on "the cause", so 
there's none left.  The IHR finds this hard to believe, so they're suing 
Carto for what's left of the dough.


          Ross Vicksell



Article 18370 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mattk@summit.novell.com (Kaufman M.E.)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Buckets of Flesh (was: Re: What Bradley Smith finds funny)
Date: 29 Oct 1994 02:40:07 GMT
Organization: Novell
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Barry Shein (bzs@world.std.com) wrote:

: From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)

: It's because they don't want to deal with the hard evidence, like the
: Nazi memos documenting the holocaust.


Oh but the *do* deal with the hard evidence, Barry, doncha know? They
apply the "Raven filter." Here's how it works:
1) if it's testimony, "Testimony is not evidence."
2) If it's not testimony but doesn't deal with the gas chamber,
it's filtered out.
3) If it does deal with gas chambers, "Is this the best single
piece of evidence you have" is asked, and if the reply is no, it's
filtered out. If the reply is yes, they run away for a few months
claiming to be too busy.
4) Finally, there's the "Compost axiom." If its in German, they
mistranslate it badly and then argue when you point out its mistranslated,
threaten you, then run away.


See? Life is real easy for revisionazis. Just apply the "Raven filter"
and silly things like facts just stop troubling you.

: Let's face it, if they had any answer to the hard evidence, the stuff
: even they claim is of a form that is indisputable, they would have
: presented it a long time ago. It has been 50 years, certainly several
: years for most of the revisionists here during which times they've
: managed to write long and tedious tracts about fund-raising speeches
: made during WWI (yes that's a one) and human lampshades and
: soap. Somehow they never get around to the obvious stuff (other than
: the occasional "forgeries, all forgeries".)

Just waiting for the judicious application of the "Raven filter."

You know, if 'testimony is not evidence' is true, can you
prove Lewis Carroll's "all my ducks are generals?" I think you can.

Matt
--
Don't anthropomorph-|copyright 1994, mattk@summit.novell.com. All rights
ize computers. They |reserved. Permission for reproduction by USENET and like
don't like it.      |free facilities explicitly allowed. No other reproduction
                    |rights are granted or implied.

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