The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/v/van-alstine.mark/1996/van-alstine.1296


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Dec  3 06:49:06 PST 1996
Article: 83375 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Clearing the air about Posen
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 1996 23:10:39 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 32
Message-ID: 
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In article <57ud9u$ano@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> I see you have chosen to single me out for your criticisms.  

Perhaps this is because of your Nazi apologia and lies, eh, Mr.Belling? 

> The fact is, if I am treated with respect, I would treat you with respect
> as well.  

Small problem, Mr. Belling.... Becuase you continiously spew Nazi apologia
and lies (just before running away) you don't _deserve_ any respect. 

Perhaps if you _earned_ some respect, you might be shown it? 

> You have done your share of insulting and ridiculing people
> on alt revisionism, and now have the gall to act as if your sensibilities
> are outraged.  Have you no shame?

Given your ourageous Nazi apologia and lies, Mr. Belling, you rightly
_deserved_ every insult and bit of ridicule. And speaking of gall... For a
person who religiously spews blatant Nazi apologia and transparant lies,
have _you_ no shame, Mr. Bellinger? 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Dec  3 06:49:07 PST 1996
Article: 83433 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Clearing the air about Posen
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 10:14:36 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 42
Message-ID: 
References: <57rg5h$p6c@itssrv1.ucsf.edu> <57srbq$pai@juliana.sprynet.com><57rg5h$p6c@itssrv1.ucsf.edu> <57srbq$pai@juliana.sprynet.com> <57uv6c$9q5@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <5808jq$1f48$3@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net>
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In article <5808jq$1f48$3@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord
McFee) wrote:

> In message <57uv6c$9q5@lendl.cc.emory.edu> - libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu
> (william c anderson)2 Dec 1996 16:13:00 GMT writes:
> :>
> :>Mr. Blackmore's predictable response to the "Put up or shut up"
> :>challenge:
> :>
> :>: I am not playing games.  The recording should have been subjected to
> :>: analysis years ago.....However, what will this prove?  A clever
interpolator,
> :>: using the same equipment available at the time, could have easily doctored
> :>: the tape....that is something that can or never will be proven, unless the
> :>: guilty party would confess to the deed....
> :>
> :>Uh-huh.  Do I hear the familiar sound of a denier backpedaling?
> 
> You hear the familiar sound of a coward slithering away.
> 
> [deleted]

Eh? Somebody flushed the toilet? 


For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Dec  3 06:49:08 PST 1996
Article: 83434 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Denier tactics: Quoting out of context; the case of Kurt Stele's .sig
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 09:43:40 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 30
Message-ID: 
References: <32a0436f.357177@199.0.216.204> <57rf03$1geb@itssrv1.ucsf.edu> <32a1d4fb.315727054@news.micron.net> 
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In article ,
Marty Kelley  wrote:

> For some time, "Kurt Stele" has been using the following quote as his
> .signature file:
> > 
> > "[M]ost of the memoirs and reports [of "Holocaust survivors"] are full
> > of preposterous verbosity, graphomanic exaggeration, dramatic effects,
> > overestimated self-inflation, dilettante philosophizing, would-be
> > lyricism, unchecked rumors, bias, partisan attacks and apologies."  
> > 
> > Jewish historian Samuel Gringauz in _Jewish Social Studies _(New
> > York), January 1950, Vol. 12, p. 65. 

[snipped for brevity]

Thaty was a truly _excellent_ analysis, Mr. Kelly! It completely exposes
Mr. Smith for the ignorant denier he is. Kudos to you!

Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Dec  3 06:49:09 PST 1996
Article: 83480 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news.rwth-aachen.de!news.ruhr-uni-bochum.de!news.rhrz.uni-bonn.de!RRZ.Uni-Koeln.DE!news.duesseldorf.ecrc.net!news.ecrc.de!newsfeed.sunet.se!news00.sunet.se!sunic!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: I could have danced all Night
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 00:03:22 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 39
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References: <57ub31$ano@juliana.sprynet.com>
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In article <57ub31$ano@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> Corporal Schwartz wrote of how a blonde Jewish
> girl was onve asked to dance by none other than
> Hans Frank.  Commenting in 1945, Cprl. Schwartz
> wrote:
> 
> "The man she danced with was Hans Frank, who
> as Governor of Poland during the war massacred
> millions of Poles and obliterated the Warsaw Ghetto."
> 
> Seeds of Destruction, Cedric Belfrage, p. 28.
> 
> Of course neither of Schwartz's allegations was
> true.  He must have attended the same SHAEF
> meetings as Chuckles Feree,

Ad hominems do not an argument make, Mr. Belling. However, I suppose as
that ad hominems are all you seem to have left in you quiver, that's what
you try and shoot. (Humor me- aim for the other foot next time. It's
getting painful watching you hit the same foot all the time....) 

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Dec  3 11:27:42 PST 1996
Article: 57177 of alt.discrimination
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.immigration,alt.discrimination,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: Holocaust-Denial Nonsense (Re: blood sucking  BRIAN SM
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 00:13:29 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 49
Message-ID: 
References: <54o0mu$2j5@news1.panix.com>  <32917022.46EC@se-iowa.net> <56vsfn$d97@is05.micron.net>  <57949k$cds@is05.micron.net>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:82620 alt.discrimination:57177 alt.politics.white-power:50809 alt.politics.nationalism.white:37374

In article <57949k$cds@is05.micron.net>, sbrian@micron.net (Brian Smith) wrote:

> dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
> 
> ># The only problem is that there is no more physical evidence
> ># for gas chambers at Auschwitz then there was for Dachau.
> 
> >Kindly stop with this nonsense. Even "revisionists" agree that
> >there are cyanide compounds on the walls of the Auschwitz gas
> >chambers.
> 
> Which indicate nothing more than that Zyklon B was used for delousing
> to save lives, exactly as it was manufactured for.  Why do you persist
> in the gassing lie?

Because the hopmicidal gas chambers of the Kremas and bunkers were never
used as delousing installations. The actual delousing gas chambers existed
elsewhere at Auschwitz. This, of course, is documented in great detail by
Pressac in _Technique_. 

Why then does Mr. Smith persist in denying this? Could it be because Mr.
Smith is a Nazi and who's purpose of posting his virulent anti-Semitic
Holocuast denial is to exhonerate his Nazi heroes? (Though, considering
the idiotic rationalizations Mr. Smith actually posts, one can only be
amused if he thinks he is actually accomplishing anything besides
highlighting how puerile, hateful, and utterly absurd he is personally,
and that his National Alliance is as an orgainaztion of like social
deviants and misfits!) 

Given this, one can only wonder if Mr. Smith's keepers at the National
Alliance realize he has escaped his padded cell and is skulking about the
digital street corners haranguing passers-by with his insane diatribes? 

For those interested in proof of Mr. Smith's (aka "Kurt Stele") rabid
anti-Semitism, pathological Nazi apologia, and that he possses an IQ of a
fence post (not to mention a sewer mouth) please visit:

http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/stele.kurt
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/smith.brian.r

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Dec  3 11:37:57 PST 1996
Article: 83508 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nazi Loot
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 09:52:19 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 51
Message-ID: 
References: <32A1A7CE.7D09@rio.com> <32a23c0d.32888705@news.gte.net> <32A2D7A1.4C29@rio.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32A2D7A1.4C29@rio.com>, Chuck Ferree  wrote:

> Chuck Ferree wrote for Matt the idiot>
> 
> 
> 
> Leprechan wrote:
> 
> More Jewish hatred baloney.
> 
> Up your, Matt, with a rusty old boathook!

Probably won't work, Mr. Ferree. With a likely blood-alcohol level of 2.0,
the Giwer-swine is damn near self-disinfecting....

The  gonadotoxic Giwer-swine is, as far as I can determine, a craven
anti-Semitic and racist troller whose only interest is in slandering Jews
and causing fights.  He has profusely and consistantly lied about what has
been said in exchanges (while accusing others of lying), refused to
document claims, pretended not to see posts which contain documented
refutation of his claims (even when they have been emailed to him),
engaged in actual libel, blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi
apologia, crude sexism, and has generally conducted himself with such a
complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be
no point in taking the time to read and respond to him.  For detailed and
documented evidence of this, please refer to


http://www.nizkor.org/encouragements/
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/email/
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/net-abuse/
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/forgeries.1096
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/antisemite 
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/simpering-bitch
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/fatbroad
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/c-word
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/plagarized-01.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lie-freely-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/thousand-dollar


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Dec  3 11:37:58 PST 1996
Article: 83509 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Good Old Days,1.
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 09:54:18 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 45
Distribution: world
Message-ID: 
References: <57o57r$hc@juliana.sprynet.com>  <32a05256.70430327@news.gte.net> <57vd31$dqt@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <57vd31$dqt@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>,
abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels-Ludwig) wrote:

[snip]

> ...And what the hell do you mean with "accepted business patterns"? Nothing 
> particular probably...

Plaid? (What _else_ would a Leprechan wear?) 

The  gonadotoxic Giwer-swine is, as far as I can determine, a craven
anti-Semitic and racist troller whose only interest is in slandering Jews
and causing fights.  He has profusely and consistantly lied about what has
been said in exchanges (while accusing others of lying), refused to
document claims, pretended not to see posts which contain documented
refutation of his claims (even when they have been emailed to him),
engaged in actual libel, blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi
apologia, crude sexism, and has generally conducted himself with such a
complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be
no point in taking the time to read and respond to him.  For detailed and
documented evidence of this, please refer to


http://www.nizkor.org/encouragements/
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/email/
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/net-abuse/
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/forgeries.1096
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/antisemite 
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/simpering-bitch
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/fatbroad
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/c-word
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/plagarized-01.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lie-freely-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/thousand-dollar

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Dec  3 17:13:36 PST 1996
Article: 83568 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Clearing the air about Posen
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 03:15:51 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 61
Message-ID: 
References: <57v0dm$trm@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> <5826k5$5kd@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <5826k5$5kd@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz) writes:
> >  Capt. Peter Peachfuzz (giwer@gte.net) wrote:
> >  
> >  :    What is there to put up?  The very existance [sic] of the challenge 
> >  : is an admission that the speaker has not been identified.  
> >  
> >  Hello?  Is anybody home?  I didn't think so.
> >  
> >  The speaker in the Poznan speeches has been identified to the satisfaction
> >  of anyone with at least half a brain -- which, even if we include the
> >  parts of yours that unfortunately seem to have been trashed by your
> >  Korsakov's, you sadly are lacking.  In fact, the people who issued
> >  the challenge are so sure that the speaker has been identified (and 
> >  correctly) that they are willing to pay for the cost of the analysis should
> >  the identification prove to be wrong.  That the "revisionists" refuse to
> >  answer the challenge indicates (as usual -- hence the cognomen above) that
> >  you have it exactly backwards.  
> >  
> >  Anyway, when are you going to either post the lie you said I posted here,
> >  or retract your claim?  Or have you suddenly changed your opinion
about the 
> >  morality of libel?
> >  
> >  -----
> >  Richard Schultz                              schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il
> >  Department of Chemistry                      tel: 972-3-531-8065
> >  Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel       fax: 972-3-535-1250
> >  -----
> >  "I've lost my harmonica, Albert."
> >  
> >>>>
> Give us a break Mr. Shultz.  This tape should have been subjected
> to extensive testing to prove its authenticity when it was entered into
> evidence at nuremberg, but, how can Satan cast out Satan?  You would
> subject the tape to examination to the same people who may have forged it?
> Are you so naive?

Is Mr. Belling now drinking while he rants? Perhaps so, as he is becoming
nearly as unintelligible as the Giwer-swine. His metamorphosis into a
clone of the besotted Giwer-swine appears to be swiftly reaching its
climax.... 

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Dec  3 17:13:37 PST 1996
Article: 83574 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'However, they were herded into the gas chambers and gassed'
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 03:43:47 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 44
Message-ID: 
References:  <5821jd$5kd@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <5821jd$5kd@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
> >  In article ,
> >  schwartz@infinet.com (Sara aka Perrrfect) wrote:
> >  
> >  > In article <57njvc$8q0@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
> >  > 
> >  > 
> >  > > This itself is a lie, propagated by a puppet for a synagogue in Canada.
> >  > 
> >  > Isn't it wonderful how well Mr./Ms/Blackmore/Belling parrots the Giwer
> >  > nonsense? He's been beautifully trained, hasn't he?
> >  >  
> >  > Bet he can sit up and beg, too.
> >  >  
> >  > Sara
> >  
> >  I'm working on it.... };-> 
> >  
> >  Mark
> >  
> >>>>
> The report came from Zundel, as you well know.  Woof Woof

Good boy! Now beg! 

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Dec  3 17:13:38 PST 1996
Article: 83575 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nol.net!df.lth.se!news.lth.se!solace!mn6.swip.net!newsfeed.sunet.se!news01.sunet.se!sunic!02-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!01-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!Austria.EU.net!EU.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Fuhrer's Gaze (Thank You, ourhero!)
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 07:57:28 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 217
Message-ID: 
References: <3299253e.130730007@news.netonecom.net> <57ntkr$8q0@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <57ntkr$8q0@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>    ron.schwarz[at]nethawk.com (Delete spam-buster ([at]) to reply) writes:
>   On Sun, 24 Nov 1996 21:33:21 -0500, schwartz@infinet.com (Sara aka
>   Perrrfect) wrote:
>   
>   In article , jstuart@tristar.org (Jim
>   Stuart) wrote:
>   
>   Thank you, comrade!  The clear, firm gaze of Adolf Hitler is
>    an inspiration to all Aryan men, to strive toward victory and
>   to battle each enemy with courage and quiet determination.  
>   
>   And then to take the coward's way out and commit suicide.
> 
> I would hardly refer to Hitler's suicide as cowardice.  Fact is, the man,
> whatever else he may have been, was not a coward, as his whole career
> and war record amply proves.  


Indeed. To whit, a revealing anecdote regarding Mr. Belling's hero, Hitler:

"Since 1910, when he was twenty-one, he [Hitler] had been subject to
military servive. According to Heiden the Austrian authorities could not
put their finger on him while he was in Vienna. They finally located him
in Munich and ordered him to to report for examination in Linz. Josef
Greiner, in his _Das Ende des Hitler-Mythos_, publishes some of the
corrospondance between Hitler and the Austrian military authorities in
which Hitler denies he went to Germany to avoid Austrian military service.
On the ground that he lacked funds, he requested to be allowed to take his
examination in Salzburg because of its nearness to Munich. He was examined
there on February 5, 1914, and found unfit for military or even auxiliary
service on account of poor health- apparently he still had a lung ailment.
His failure to report for miitary service until the authorities finally
located him at the age of twenty-four confirms the story that was current
in anti-Nazi circles when I was in Berlin that when the German troops
occupied Austria in 1938 Hitler ordered the Gestapo to find the official
papers relating to his military service. The records in Linz were searched
in vain- to Hitler's mounting fury. They had been removed by a member of
the local government, who, after the war, showed them to Greiner."
(Shirer, _The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich_, p.49fn.)

And one regarding Mr. Belling's heroes, Hitler and his pack of Nazi
lackies, and their maladroit "Beer Hall Putsch:"

"A few hundred yards north of the beer cellar the rebels met their first
obsticle. On the Ludwig Bridge, which leads over the River Isar toward the
center of the city, stood a detachment of armed police barring the route.
Goering sprang forward and, addressing the police commander, threatened to
shoot a number of hostages he said he had in the rear of his column if the
police fired on his men. During the night Hess and others had rounded up a
number of hostages, including two cabinet members, for such a contingency.
Whether Goering was bluffing or not, the police commander apparently
believed he was not and let the column file over the bridge unmolested. 

"At the Marienplatz the Nazi column encountered a large crowd which was
listening to an exhortation of Julius Streicher, the jew-baiter from
Nuremberg, who had rushed to Munich at the first news of the putsch. Not
wishing to be left out of the revolution, he cut short his speech and
joined the rebels, jumping into step immediately behind Hitler.

"Shortly after noon the marchers neared their objective, the War Ministry,
where Roehm and his storm troopers were surrounded by soldiers of the
Reichswehr. Neither besiegers nor the besieged had yet fired a shot. Roehm
and his men were all ex-soldiers and they had many war-time comrades on
the other side of the barbed wire. Neither side had any heart for killing.

"To reach the War Ministry and free Roehm, Hitler and Ludendorff now led
their column through the narrow Residenstrasse, which, just beyond the
Feldherrnhalle opens out into the spacious Odeonsplatz. At the end of the
gullylike street a detachment of police about one hundred strong, armed
with carbines, blocked the way. They were in a strategic spot and this
time they did not give way.

"But once again the Nazis tried to talk their way through. One of them,
the faithful bidyguard Ulrich Graf, stepped forward and cried out to the
police officer in charge, 'Don't shoot! His Excellency Ludendorff is
coming!' Even at this crucial, perilous moment, a German revolutionary,
even an old amateur wresteler and professional bouncer, remembered to give
a gentleman his proper title. Hitler added another cry. "Surrender!
Surrender!" he called out. But the unkown police officer did not
surrender. Apparently Ludendorff's name had no magic sound for him; this
was the police, not the Army.

"Which side fired first was never established. Each put the blame on the
other. One onlooker later testified that Hitler fired the first shot with
his revolver. Another thought that Streicher did, and more than one Nazi
later told this author that it was this deed which, more than any other,
endeared him so long to Hitler.

"At any rate a shot was fired and in the next instant a volley of shots
rang out from both sides, spelling in that instant the doom of Hitler's
hopes. Scheubner-Richter fell, mortally wounded. Goering went down with a
serious wound in his thigh. Within sixty seconds the firing stoppe, but
the street was already littered with fallen bodies- sixteen Nazis and
three police dead or dying, many more wounded and the rest, including
Hitler, clutching the pavement to save their lives. 

"There was one exception, and had his example been followed, the day might
have had a different ending. Ludendorff did not fling himself to the
ground. Standing erect and proud in the best soldierly tradition, with his
adjutant, Major Streck, at his side, he marched calmly on between the
muzzles of the police rifles until he reached the Odenplatz. He must have
seemed a lonely and bizzarre figure. Not one Nazi followed him. Not even
the supreme leader, Adolf Hitler.

"The future Chancellor of the Third Reich was the first to scamper to
safety. He had locked his left arm with the right arm of Sceubner-Richter
( a curious but perhaps revelaing gesture) as the column approached the
police cordon, and when the latter fell he pulled Hitler down to the
pavementwith him. Perhaps Hilter thought he had been wounded; he suffered
a sharp pain which, it was found later, came from a dislocated shoulder.
But the fact remains that according to the testimony of one of his own
Nazi followers in the column, the physician Dr. Walther Schulz, which was
supported by several other witnesses, Hitler 'was the first to get up and
turn back,' leaving his dead and wounded comrades lying in the street. He
was hustled into a waiting motorcar and spirited off to the country home
of the Hanfstaengls at Uffing, where Putzi's wife and sister nursed him
and where, two days later, he was arrested.

"Ludendorff was arrested on the spot. He was contemptuous of the rebels
who had not the courage to march on with him, and so bitter against the
Army for not coming over to his side that he declared henceforth he would
not recognize a German officer nor ever again wear an officer's uniform.
The wounded Goering was given first aid by the Jewish proprietor of a
nearby bank into which he had been carried and then smuggled across the
frontier into Austria by his wife and taken to a hospital in Innsbruck.
Hess also fled to Austria. Roehm surrendered at the War Ministry two hours
after the collapse before the Feldherrnhalle. Within a few days all the
rebel leaders except Goering and Hess were rounded up and jailed. The Nazi
putsch had ended in a fiasco. The party was dissolved. National Socialism,
to all appearances, was dead. Its dictatorial leader, who had run away at
the first hail of bullets, seemed utterly discredited, meteoric political
career at an end." (Ibid. pp.111-114.) 

> The allies were simply deprived of the pleasure of executing him publicly and 
> later displaying his mummified head and sex organs in some museum in Tel Aviv.

So bitter! Tsk tsk. (It must be hard for Mr. Bellinger to see his heroes
so mocked and reviled for the criminal scum they were.) However, Mr.
Bellinger (conveiantly) overlooks the reality that _none_ of the convicted
and executed major Nazi war criminals at Nuremberg were so descicrated by
the Allies after they were executed. Besides, Hilter, wasn't completely
hung anyways.... 

> >  >I suggest you widen your knowledge of your Fuehrer by reading some of the
> >  >documents and interviews collected by the OSS during the war. Some of the
> >  >wonderful things you'll discover are:
> 
> What is OSS-the Office of Stupid Shits?

Bitter, bitter.... Tsk tsk.

> >  >Hitler got undressed and then asked Rene Mueller (an actress) to kick him,
> >  >all the while crying that he "wasn't worthy" of her. She later "committed
> >  >suicide."
> >  > 
> >  >Hitler forced Geli Raubel to stand over his naked body and urinate on him.
> >  >She later "committed suicide" with Hitler's gun.
> >  > 
> >  >When one of Hitler's personal guards started a flirtation with Eva Braun,
> >  >he was found at the bottom of a ravine behind the "Eagle's Nest." Cause of
> >  >death? "Suicide"
> >  > 
> >  >What a guy, huh?
> >  
> >  The big question: where was Fahmi Malek at the time? 
> >  
> >>>>
> The things some people will believe.  Well try this one on for size:
> 
> "Once I had an unpleasant experience in the camp, when a  (Jewish) doctor
> visited me and my room-mates had to leave.  When we were alone, he said,
> "I have to ask you to tell me a few intimate things about Hitler."
> 
> I stared at him, astonished.  "But you know that I can't tell you anything
> "intimate" about Hitler."
> 
> "Frau Riefenstahl, I understand that you do not care to speak about 
> such things, but I am a doctor, and you can trust me. (!)  It is no crime
> if you as a woman slept with Hitler.  I will not report it any further.  We
> want to know if Hitler was sexually normal or if he was impotent, what
> his genitals looked like, and so on.  These things are important to us
> for understanding his character."
> 
> Source:  The Sieveof Time, Leni Riefenstahl
> 
> Now. if all those reports which you mentioned were true, why
> was this doctor begging Ms. Riefenstahl for all these sordid
> details?  Fact is, your info is simply a compendium of malicious
> lies and gossip disseminated by Hitler's detractors.

Ah yes, Mr. Belling'ss rationalizations to salvage his supreme idol starts....

 

The things weak-minded people do out of idolatry and their suceptability
to  personality cults. Not to mention just being plain ol' immoral Nazi
scum....

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Dec  3 19:25:14 PST 1996
Article: 83590 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!peerfeed.internetmci.com!news.uoregon.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.sgi.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'However, they were herded into the gas chambers and gassed'
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 06:43:12 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 58
Message-ID: 
References:  <5823ih$5kd@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <5823ih$5kd@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
> >  In article <57nk0n$8q0@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>   
>    mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
>   In article ,
>   gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca (Rajiv K. Gandhi) wrote:
> 
>   [snip]
>   
> You might, given that you are a revisionist, choose to demonstrate your
>  foundation for believing that the Holocaust did not hapen, in the face of
>  overwhelming evidence. You must have a reason for believing that the
> Holocaust is a hoax. Explain that belief.
>  
>   Poor potty training? 
> 
>  From a man who cleans toilets in a synagogue?

Hmm, it seems Mr. Belling has a toilet fetish. Why is that? Must be
connected to his "beliefs."

>  Mr. Belling, cleaning toilets in a house of God can hardly be deemed
>  unworthy.
> 
> You are so humble.  One can read it in your posts.

I know. 

>  So if I were to clean them, I would hardly be ashamed of it. 
> 
>   
>   Besides, it sure beats licking Nazi boots. How's that tongue of yours?
>   Still sore from getting stepped on? Next time you might try asking Mr.
>   Smith to stand still....
> 
> Why would I ask  Mr. Smith anything of the sort, since I never see him?

Prove it.  };-> 

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec  4 05:22:32 PST 1996
Article: 83598 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!news.alfred.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Clearing the air about Posen
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 03:09:19 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 49
Message-ID: 
References:  <58269m$5kd@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <58269m$5kd@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
> >  In article <5808jq$1f48$3@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord
> >  McFee) wrote:
> >  
> >  > In message <57uv6c$9q5@lendl.cc.emory.edu> - libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu
> >  > (william c anderson)2 Dec 1996 16:13:00 GMT writes:
> >  > :>
> >  > :>Mr. Blackmore's predictable response to the "Put up or shut up"
> >  > :>challenge:
> >  > :>
> >  > :>: I am not playing games.  The recording should have been subjected to
> >  > :>: analysis years ago.....However, what will this prove?  A clever
> >  interpolator,
> >  > :>: using the same equipment available at the time, could have
easily doctored
> >  > :>: the tape....that is something that can or never will be proven,
unless the
> >  > :>: guilty party would confess to the deed....
> >  > :>
> >  > :>Uh-huh.  Do I hear the familiar sound of a denier backpedaling?
> >  > 
> >  > You hear the familiar sound of a coward slithering away.
> >  > 
> >  > [deleted]
> >  
> >  Eh? Somebody flushed the toilet?
> 
> So Mark by his implied admission will now rush to clean it. 

To get rid of the filthy ring Mr. Belling left behind? Gladly. 

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec  4 05:22:33 PST 1996
Article: 83599 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!uunet!in2.uu.net!199.94.215.18!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Clearing the air about Posen
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 03:26:58 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 65
Message-ID: 
References:  <5827t5$5kd@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <5827t5$5kd@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>    mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
>   In article <57ud9u$ano@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>  
>  I see you have chosen to single me out for your criticisms.  
>   
>   Perhaps this is because of your Nazi apologia and lies, eh, Mr.Belling? 
>   
>    The fact is, if I am treated with respect, I would treat you with respect
>    as well.  

Pardon my skepticism, Mr. Belling,  but I truly doubt that. And given your
track record of irresponsible and scurrilous Nazi apologia and lies, I see
no reason to waste any effort to find out. 

>   Small problem, Mr. Belling.... Becuase you continiously spew Nazi apologia
>   and lies (just before running away) you don't _deserve_ any respect. 
>   
>   Perhaps if you _earned_ some respect, you might be shown it? 
>   
> >  > You have done your share of insulting and ridiculing people
> >  > on alt revisionism, and now have the gall to act as if your sensibilities
> >  > are outraged.  Have you no shame?
> >  
> >  Given your ourageous Nazi apologia and lies, Mr. Belling, you rightly
> >  _deserved_ every insult and bit of ridicule. And speaking of gall... For a
> >  person who religiously spews blatant Nazi apologia and transparant lies,
> >  have _you_ no shame, Mr. Bellinger? 
> 
> I do, Mark.  

Pardon my skepticism again, Mr. Belling,  but I truly doubt that. If you
had a modicum of decency about you you would not have stooped to the
puerile tactics you have to defend some of the most immoral and
reprehensible people to have walked the face of the earth. 

> On you.  you are one of the few people
> who sees truth, reason, and objectivity as "Nazi apologia".

No, Mr. Belling, I see your pathetic attempts to white-wash Nazi genocide
and crimes as Nazi apologia. I see your lies about Nazi genocide and
crimes as reprehensible lies made in  attempts to white-wash Nazi genocide
and crimes as lies. I see your intellectual dishonesty in avoiding honest
debate as the behavior of a bigoted fanatic who cannot bear to see his
Nazi heroes toppled from the pedestal he has placed them on. 

I hope that makes things a bit more clear for you. 

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec  4 05:22:34 PST 1996
Article: 83613 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!news.algonet.se!news.uoregon.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'However, they were herded into the gas chambers and gassed'
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 06:03:31 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 55
Message-ID: 
References:  <57nj8h$8q0@juliana.sprynet.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article , karlpov@access5.digex.net (Charles
R.L. Power) wrote:

> rblackmore@juno.com writes:
> 
> >Ask your friends at the synagogue.  Why ask me?  BTW, who declared
> >war first-England and France, or Germany?
> 
> Germany first launched its aggression against Czechoslovakia, which
> Britain and France were obligated by treaty to protect but did not,
> and then Poland, which Britain and France were obligated by treaty
> to protect, at which point they did the honorable thing. You have a
> problem with this?
> 
> >National News Service.  135,000. 1996.
> 
> Is this what you call a citation, Jane? I'm afraid you're going
> to have to repeat this course.
> 
> >I will not do your research for you.  Look up the original reports of the
> >authorities in Dresden who had to dispose of the bodies.  However, that
> >won't do for you as it attacks your shibboleths.
> 
> I thought you were attributing your figure to some 1996 source. In 
> previous messages you talked about recent research. You could at 
> least try to be consistent with your fantasies.
> 
> >Oooh...the facts hurt don't they?
> 
> Oooh, I don't know. Why don't you try including a few in your
> postings, so we can find out?

LOL!

Oh, I suppose it's because Mr. Belling's tolerance for pain is a bit low.... 

What a Nazi wimp.


For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec  4 05:22:35 PST 1996
Article: 83619 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!pumpkin.pangea.ca!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: agressive
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 08:17:41 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 65
Message-ID: 
References:  <57nn2f$8q0@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <57nn2f$8q0@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
> >  In article <3298ef10.178193386@news.micron.net>, kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt
> >  Stele) wrote:
> >  
> >  [Nothing but Nazi vulgarities]
> >  
> >  One can only wonder if Mr. Smith's keepers at the National Alliance
> >  realize he has escaped his padded cell and is skulking about the digital
> >  street corners haranguing passers-by with his insane diatribes? 
> >  
> >  For those interested in proof of National Alliance member Brian Smith's
> >  (aka "Kurt Stele") rabid anti-Semitism, pathological Nazi apologia, and
> >  that he possses an IQ of a fence post (not to mention a sewer mouth)
> >  please visit:
> >  
> >  http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/stele.kurt
> >  http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/smith.brian.r
> >  
> >  "In Jerusalem there is a memorial site for the six million Jews murdered
> >  by the Nazi's during World War 2. It is called Yad Vashem and was raised
> >  1953. An avenue called "The Avenue of the Righteous" runs through this
> >  site. The wind whispers continuously through the several hundred trees
> >  planted there. Each and every tree has been planted to honor a non-Jewish
> >  person risking his or her life to save Jews from the Nazi murderers." 
> >  

[snip]

> >>>>
> Yes.  Several hundred trees.  is that the real figure for Jewish deaths
> during the war?

Sometimes I wonder if the prequisite for being a lying scumbag Nazi
apologist is having a frontal lobotomy. (Or Alzheimers or something.)
Seriously. The Giwer-swine appears to have had a chemically induced one.
Mr. Smith's seems to be due to rabies. And now Mr. Bellinger invidences
progressive cognitive dysfuctionalism....

I mean, how utterly _stupid_ does one have to be to "misconstrue" the
number of trees planted along The Avenue of the Righteous, in honor of the
gentiles who risked their lives to save Jews from the Nazis, with the
number of Jewish victims of Nazi mass murder? 

Evidently, at least as stupid as Mr. Belling appears to be....


For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec  4 05:22:35 PST 1996
Article: 83634 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!uunet!in1.uu.net!205.252.116.190!feed1.news.erols.com!news.idt.net!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!newshub.sdsu.edu!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'However, they were herded into the gas chambers and gassed'
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 04:33:55 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 172
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References:  <57nkg2$8q0@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <57nkg2$8q0@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
> 
> Mark wirtes:
>   
>   Probably because, Mr. Belling, the topic of alt.revision is about
>   Holocaust denial.
> 
>  
>  Oh?  And "Holocaust" can only refer to Jews?  Is that what you
>  are telling us?
>   
>   Actually, that is what _Webster's New World Dictionary_ (Third College
>   Edition) tells us: 
>   
>   "2 great or total destruction of life, esp. by fire [nuclear _holocaust_]
>   -*the Holocaust [also the h-] the systematic destruction of over six
>   million European Jews by the Nazis before and during World War II."
>   
>   Personally, I'm a bit more inclusive, considering the Holocaust [note the
>   capital "H"] to include the murder of about 6 million gentiles- by the
>   Nazis -as well.
> 
> As if you ever gave a damn about the Gentiles......

And your evidence that I don't give "a damn about the Gentiles [sic]" is
what, exactly? Because I refuse to respond to your stinky dead fish aboiut
Dresden? 

Oh, my, what _am_ I gonna do? Mr. Belling says I don't give a "damn about
the Gentiles [sic]!" (i.e. His Nazi heros.) Oh, me! Oh, my! 

I know! 

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! 

> or is it Goyim? What does Goyim mean, Mark?

It is "goyim," Mr. Belling. No capitalization. Cretin. 

_Webster's New World Dictionary_ (Third College Edition) again tells us: 

goi (goi) N., pl goys or goyim (goi'im) [Yidd < Heb, tribe, nation] a
non-Jew; gentile; often used contemptuously -goy'ish adj.

>  However, I'm afraid, Mr. Belling, that my _or_ Webster's
>  definition of the Holocaust does _not_ include the German civilian
>  casualties incurred from the Allied strategic bombing campaign.
> 
> Good for your Webster,  My definition is different.

That's must because you are a lying scumbag Nazi apologist. And anti-Semite.

And a cretin.

>   So please be so kind as to wave your smelly red herring elsewhere.
> 
> Not a chance.

Thought not, thou cretin with poor hygiene. 

>   If I were to go into a detailed and lenghty discussion
>   in regard civilain casualties incurred during World War II a more
>   appopriate forum would be, for example, "soc.history.war.world-war-ii."
>   
>   Of course, I believe that "soc.history.war.world-war-ii" is a moderated
>   group, so your Nazi apologia, puerile lies, anti-Semitism, and juvenile
>   vuloarities would keep you from participating. Pity.
> 
> >  > On the contrary.  I have no doubt that many of my comments would be
> >  > most welcome.  
> >  
> >  Then please go right ahead and post them there. Amuse me. 
> 
> How could I amuse a clown?

I dunno, look in the mirror? Lick Mr. Smith's jackboots? Give the
Giwer-swine a bottle of Aqua-Velva for Christmas? Give the Moran(tm) a RPN
calculator? 

> >  > BTW, what do you regard as "anti-Semitic" on my part?
> >  > Would you mind posting it?

Look in DejaNews.

> >  > >  The moderators there tend to frown on such puerile and hateful 
> >  > >  nonsense.
> >  > 
> >  > Is that why they never post here?
> >  
> >  Why don't _you_ ask _them_? 
> >  
> >  > >  As it stands, I sometimes briefly address such off-topic issues when
> >  > >  presented in this group when they are used for purposes of Nazi 
> >  > >  apologia and Holocast denial or anti-Semitic propaganda. Typically, 
> >  > >  this means pointing out attempts by deniers to establish moral 
> >  > >  relativism between Nazi genocide and the Allied prosecution of
the war > >  > >  for the  purpose of white-wshing Nazi atrocities and
mass murder. 
> >  > 
> >  > There certainly is a moral relativism, whether you like to admit it 
> >  > or not.
> >  
> >  Then please feel free to demonstrate such. And please try not to appeal to
> >  your ersatz authority. Your boorish repitions of "Because I Say So" by no
> >  means makes it so. It simply makes you a monumental boor. 
> 
> I have never used that expression.

No, Mr. Belling, I don't claim that you said that. It is a common
euphamism used in this group for what for deniers _do_. For what _you_ do:
The making of unsupported and facile claims and expecting people to accept
them Because (insert denier name) Says So. _You_ do so, Mr. Belling, with
predictable and boorish repetitiveness. Ergo, my use of "Because I Say So"
indicating _your_ boorish pretenses of (ersatz) authority on the moral
relativism between Nazi genocide and the Allied prosecution of the war. 

I would note, btw, that Mr. Belling has avoided my challange in
demonstrating any alleged moral relativism between Nazi genocide and the
Allied prosecution of the war. Typical Nazi apologist: All bark and no
bite. 

> >  > However, your refusal to admit simply shows your own prejudice.  
> >  > it does not go unnoticed.
> >  
> >  Really? Mr. Belling, simply because I do not share your Nazi fantasy about
> >  the bombing of Dresden by no means implies I choose not to out of
> >  prejudice. Nor does it mean that your Nazi fantasy about the bombing of
> >  Dresden is morally equivalent to the Nazi mass murder of the European
> >  Jews. 
> 
> And who should believe you?

And why _shouldn't_ people believe me, Mr. Belling? Because You Say So? 

And should people jump of a cliff Because You Say So? Or believe your Nazi
apologia when a mountain of evidence contradicting you stares them in the
face?

Do you also hear little voices whispering in your ear, Mr. Belling? Little
voices that say: "Kiss the Devil's ass! Kiss the Devil's ass NOW!" 

Personally, I wouldn't be the least suprised if you did. 

> >  Again, please feel free to demonstrate otherwise. Amuse me. And please try
> >  not to appeal to your ersatz authority. Your boorish repitions of "Because
> >  I Say So" by no means makes it so. It simply makes you a monumental boor.
> 
> If you wish to amuse yourself, re-read your posts. 

I did. _You_ are still as bigoted and ignorant in them as the first time I
read them, Mr. Belling. No suprise there. 


For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec  4 05:22:36 PST 1996
Article: 83636 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.fdt.net!news.gwi.net!news.bihs.net!news.tamu.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!eru.mt.luth.se!news.algonet.se!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hitler Talks About the Jews, I
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 08:42:46 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 117
Message-ID: 
References:  <57np6v$8q0@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <57np6v$8q0@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>    mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
>   In article <3298f48c.179597535@news.micron.net>, kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt
>   Stele) wrote:
>  On Sat, 23 Nov 1996 09:34:58 -0700, mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van
>  Alstine) wrote:
>  
>  "Today I will once more be a prophet:  If the international Jewish
> financiers inside and outside Europe should again succeed in plunging
> the nations into a world war, the result will be...the annhilation of
> the Jewish race throughout Europe."
> 
>      - Adolf  Hitler in his speech to the Reichstag;  January 30, 1939.
> 
>  Why did never issue any order to kill Jews if that was Hitler's
>  intent?   Oops!
>   
>   Oops indeed, Mr. Smith. Your fascile one-liners land you in hot water yet
>   again! To whit:
>   
>  In regards objections to the mass shooting of German Jews outside Riga by
>   Dr. Bernhard Lo"sener, the Advisor on Jewish Affairs to the Interior
>   Ministry, to his superior, Secretary of State Dr. Stuckart:
>   
>  "I told him that my colleague, Dr. Feldscher, had recieved an eyewitness
>   account  of the way in which deported German Jews had recently been
>   massacred in Riga...I told Stickart that this outrage had affected me as
>   it would any feeling human being; and that in  the present case I was also
>   affected as an advisor in the Ministry of the Interior, since Jews of
>   German citizenship were involved. My conscience and my position at the
>   Ministry were now irreconcilable. They would remain so even if the present
>   policy on mixed marriages and on the offspring fropm these unions were to
>   prove untenable. Stuckart's reply to this was, word for word: 'Herr
>   Lo"sener, don't you realize that all of this is being done on orders from
>   the highest level?' [*] I said, 'There is a judge inside me who tells me
>   what I have to do.' Stickart answered that if my conscience did not allow
>   me to continue, he would relieve me at once from my position; but first he
>   would need to consider how I might otherwise be employed." (Fleming,
>   _Hitler and the Final Solution_  p.107.)
> 
> All hearsay.  where is the order?  Don't refer to some mythical "Hitler
> wishes" and it shalt be done nonsense.

Mr. Belling once more evidences in cognitive disabilities. Perhaps if he
were to move his lips _real_ slow when he reads it will help? 

>   * "'On orders from the highest level' can mean only that an order or
>   command came from Hitler himself" [Richard Schultze-Kossens to Fleming, 1
>   December 1979.]; Ibid. p.107fn.
>   
>   Furthermore, according to Fleming: 
> >  
> >  
> >  
> >  ...Since we find that this expression of Hilter's will, equivalent in
> >  force to a command, was closely connected with mass shootings that occured
> >  outside Riga in November and December of 1941, the following comments are
> >  worth quoting. Dr, Werner Best has said: "I can attest that, seen from
> >  'from below,' that is, from the perspective of thoise who recieved the
> >  orders, the formulas 'der Fu"hrer wu"nscht' [the Fu"hrer's wishes] and
> >  'der Fu"hrer hat befohlen' [the Fu"hrer has ordered] were perfectly
> >  synonymous...At the recieving end as well...the word 'wish' was used as an
> >  equivalent to 'order'." And according to Richard Schulze-Kossens: "The
> >  verbal expression 'der Fu"hrer wu"nscht,' 'es ist des Fu"hrers Wunsch ist'
> 
> 
> The "Fuehrer's Wish", and if he wished all grass turned into dollar bills,
> that would have happened as well...go peddle your fairy tales elsewhere.

Mr. Belling, obviously flustered by his inability to offer a credible
rebuttal (sadly due to his apparent cognitive disabilities), in true Homo
Rabidus style, quickly falls back to argumentum ad hominen. Unfortuantely,
substituing name calling and innuendo for an intelligent and credible
argument is generally indicative of a mind of with the intellectual and
emotional abilities of two year-old. 

> >  [which is the Fu"hrer's wish]...are identical in menaing. Although these
> >  are not direct orders, they are nonetheless, to be interpreted as such. If
> >  , therefore, he were to tell me to signal the Leibstandarte [Hiltrer's
> >  bodyguard] ...'it is my wish that they do this and that immediately,' then
> >  the commander of the Leibstandarte naturally would view this as an order.
> >  The 'wish' is always communicated by a theird party and is not explicitly
> >  passed on as a Fu"hrer-order. But it does indeed have the force of an a
> >  order."
> >  
> >  
> >  
> >  Fleming, _Hitler and the Final Solution_, pp.45-46.
> 
> Fleming-number one German hater and baiter, similar to Streicher and
> the Jews.  Streicher documented all his accusations against the jews
> as well, if not better than Fleming.

Mr. Belling, obviously flustered by his inability to offer a credible
rebuttal (sadly due to his apparent cognitive disabilities), in true Homo
Rabidus style, quickly falls back to argumentum ad hominen. Unfortuantely,
substituing name calling and innuendo for an intelligent and credible
argument is generally indicative of a mind of with the intellectual and
emotional abilities of a two year-old. 

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec  4 05:22:37 PST 1996
Article: 83654 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!news-stkh.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-paris.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'These mentally diseased people were taken into the gas chambers'
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 08:01:57 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 78
Message-ID: 
References: <3297ccef.8334868@news.sprynet.com> <57nmol$8q0@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <57nmol$8q0@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) writes:
> >  chief@rabbi.com (Nizkor's handler) wrote:
> >  
> >  >On Thu, 21 Nov 1996 15:32:59 -0700, mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van
> >  >Alstine) wrote:
> >  >
> >  >>In article <32941ef8.257510543@news.micron.net>,
kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt
> >  >>Stele) wrote:
> >  >>
> >  >>Considering that Hitler's "Euthanasia" program killed the mentally
> >  >>disabled without their (or their relatives') consent, clearly evidences
> >  >>the difference of between humane euthanasia of the terminally ill where
> >  >>the terminally ill _choose_ death forthemselves.
> >  >
> >  >    When the person is a ward of the state, as was the case in these
> >  >cases, relatives have no say in the legal treatment.  
> >  
> >  >>Hitler's "Euthanasia" program was state sponsored murder.
> >  
> >  >    You folks are rather too foolish to deal with the law.  Murder is
> >  >defined in law.  Euthansia in accordance with law is not murder.
> >  >Abortion in accordance with law is not murder.
> >  
> >  Was the euthanasia a legal treatment ? Then, why did they hide the
> >  real cause of the death to the relatives, trying to keep the secret ?
> >  
> >  The Hitler's text wasn't a law. How could Clemens August and many
> >  others lodge complaints for murder if a real law existed ?
> >  
> >  
> >>>>
> It was law.  The law was later rescinded.

And your cite for this is, Mr. Belling? What, don't have one? How
unsurprising, especially given the following:

"With the collaboration of Dr. Herbert Linden, the specialist in affairs
concerning the mentally ill at the Interior Ministry and a member of the
Reich committee for 'children euthanasia,' Bouhler and Brandt put together
a list of physicians whom they considered suitable, on a basis of their
opinions and their professional qualifications, to take part in the
proposed operation....

"Bouhler and Brandt had probably benn choesn because they belonged to the
Fu"hrer's Chancellery, so that Hitler's private chancellery and not some
public administration would be responsible for the messures to be adopted.
It would thus be much easier to keep these measures secret, as they would
be outside state control." 

"...The proposed methods of killing were explained to the physicians, and
it was made clear that Hitler refused- for political reasons -to make the
measures law, and that absolute secrecy was required. The physicians were,
however, given assurances that they would be safe from any criminal
prosecution."  (Kogon, _Nazi Mass Murder_, p.15.) 

Like I said: Hitler's "Euthanasia" program was state sponsored murder.


For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec  4 05:22:38 PST 1996
Article: 83664 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!news-stkh.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-paris.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hammer.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'Let them die, why should you care?'
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 06:24:22 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 46
Message-ID: 
References:  <57nl8h$8q0@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <57nl8h$8q0@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>    mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
>   In article <3298ec67.177512633@news.micron.net>, kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt
>   Stele) wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>  "[M]ost of the memoirs and reports [of "Holocaust survivors"] are full
>  of preposterous verbosity, graphomanic exaggeration, dramatic effects,
>  overestimated self-inflation, dilettante philosophizing, would-be
>  lyricism, unchecked rumors, bias, partisan attacks and apologies."  
>   Jewish historian Samuel Gringauz in _Jewish Social Studies _(New
>  York), January 1950, Vol. 12, p. 65. 
>  
>   
>   "We swallow greedily any lie that flatters us, but we sip only little by
> >  little at a truth we find bitter. "
> >  
> >                -Denis Diderot 
> >  http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/stele.kurt
> >  http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/smith.brian.r
> >  
> >  Mark
> >  
> >  

[snip]

> One day Mr. Blackmore will soon eat crow pie."-Mark Van Alstine
> Well, I am still waiting......

Obviously, Mr. Belling is still too frightened to go to a public library
and look in the Congressional Record. Why is that? 

Must I do _all_ his research for him? Sheesh....

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec  4 08:27:59 PST 1996
Article: 83674 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!news.algonet.se!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!feed1.news.erols.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'However, they were herded into the gas chambers and gassed'
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 05:58:58 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 26
Message-ID: 
References:  <57njvc$8q0@juliana.sprynet.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article ,
schwartz@infinet.com (Sara aka Perrrfect) wrote:

> In article <57njvc$8q0@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
> 
> 
> > This itself is a lie, propagated by a puppet for a synagogue in Canada.
> 
> Isn't it wonderful how well Mr./Ms/Blackmore/Belling parrots the Giwer
> nonsense? He's been beautifully trained, hasn't he?
>  
> Bet he can sit up and beg, too.
>  
> Sara

I'm working on it.... };-> 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec  4 08:28:00 PST 1996
Article: 83682 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!news.alfred.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.stealth.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Clearing the air about Posen
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 21:53:39 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 42
Message-ID: 
References: <19961201161700.LAA18977@ladder01.news.aol.com> <57sjhr$c90@news.enter.net> <32a3ed7e.44500296@news.micron.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32a3ed7e.44500296@news.micron.net>, kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

> On 1 Dec 1996 18:42:03 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
> 
> >       You have been offered a simple sceintific test whichj, if the 
> >"revisionist" contentions (I note that you, yourself, make no claim that the 
> >tape of the Posen speech is a forgery) which, if they are correct,
would be done 
> >at no cost to them.  If this offer was given in the context of
litigation, there is not 
> >a single lawyer who would no leap at the opportunity.
> >
> >       --YFE
> 
> Then test the doctored tape coward.  
> 

All you have to do Mr. Smith is accept the challenge. The tests will then
be done and the results published. What? You can't because you hear your
mommy calling? 

Typical scumbag Nazi: all mouth and no spine.


For those interested in proof of National Alliance member Brian Smith's
(aka "Kurt Stele") rabid anti-Semitism, pathological Nazi apologia, and
that he possses an IQ of a fence post (not to mention a sewer mouth)
please visit:

http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/stele.kurt
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/smith.brian.r

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec  4 12:30:39 PST 1996
Article: 83697 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!news.texoma.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Fuhrer's Gaze (Thank You, ourhero!)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 11:07:39 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 123
Message-ID: 
References:  <582cah$f8q@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <582cah$f8q@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>    mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
>   In article <57ntkr$8q0@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>   
>   ron.schwarz[at]nethawk.com (Delete spam-buster ([at]) to reply) writes:
>    On Sun, 24 Nov 1996 21:33:21 -0500, schwartz@infinet.com (Sara aka
>    Perrrfect) wrote:
>    
>    In article , jstuart@tristar.org (Jim
>    Stuart) wrote:
>    
>    Thank you, comrade!  The clear, firm gaze of Adolf Hitler is
>     an inspiration to all Aryan men, to strive toward victory and
>    to battle each enemy with courage and quiet determination.  
>    
>    And then to take the coward's way out and commit suicide.
>  
>  I would hardly refer to Hitler's suicide as cowardice.  Fact is, the man,
>  whatever else he may have been, was not a coward, as his whole career
>  and war record amply proves.  
>   
>  
>   Indeed. To whit, a revealing anecdote regarding Mr. Belling's hero, Hitler:
>   
>   "Since 1910, when he was twenty-one, he [Hitler] had been subject to
>   military servive. According to Heiden the Austrian authorities could not
>   put their finger on him while he was in Vienna. They finally located him
>   in Munich and ordered him to to report for examination in Linz. Josef
>   Greiner, in his _Das Ende des Hitler-Mythos_, publishes some of the
>   corrospondance between Hitler and the Austrian military authorities in
>   which Hitler denies he went to Germany to avoid Austrian military service.
> 
> 
> Curious the sources you rely on.  Decades old and crusted with ancient
> propagandistic lies by detractors. 

I notice a marked lack of examples of such on your part, Mr. Belling.
Sounds yet again like Because You Say So! 


> Of course, you can't explain why Hitler enlisted to fight in the German Armed 
> Forces, and was highly decorated.

Mr. Belling, I  didn't know _I_ needed to explain why _your_ hero, after
draft dodging for a few years, was finally snared by the Army. Only
_after_ did he petition to serve in a Bavarian unit. (First Company of the
16th Bavarian Reserve Infrantry Regiment.) 

Only _after_ was your hero awarded the Iron Cross, Second Class, in
December 1914 and the Iron Cross, First Class, in August 1918. I would
have thought, _you'd_ have liked to tell _that_ story....  

However, that doesn't change the fact that Hitler was a draft dodger or
the first to tuck tail and run, leaving his wounded and dead comrades
lying in the street in Munich.

> I took the liberty of snipped more of Shirer's ancient mendacium and 
> distortions.

I see. In other words, the you can't take the fact that your hero had feet
of clay.... Sounds like you have a personal problem there, Mr. Belling. I
guess being a Hitler cultist might do that to a person....

>  The allies were simply deprived of the pleasure of executing him
publicly and 
>  later displaying his mummified head and sex organs in some museum in Tel 
>  Aviv.
>   
>   So bitter! Tsk tsk. (It must be hard for Mr. Bellinger to see his heroes
>   so mocked and reviled for the criminal scum they were.) However, Mr.
>   Bellinger (conveiantly) overlooks the reality that _none_ of the convicted
>   and executed major Nazi war criminals at Nuremberg were so descicrated by
>   the Allies after they were executed. Besides, Hilter, wasn't completely
>   hung anyways.... 
> 
> According to your Russians, he didn't have 2 testicles...according to other
> sources, he had three.....By the way, you are wrong about the desecration
> of corpses.  Read how the Soviets reacted to goering's corpse after he was 
> dead. You ought to find it amusing.  About as amusing as pulling teeth out of 
> the  mouths of corpses.....

I think you are having yet another Nazi fantasy (seizure?), Mr. Belling....

"...The bodies of the ten hanged men, together with Goering's , were laid
out in an adjacent room, where they were photographed , clothed and
unclothed, from various angles by a volunteer from the Signal Corps. (The
Surgeon General of the United States had requested that their brains be
excised  and shipped to Washinton for study, but his application was
denied.) At four o'clock the corpses where loaded onto two trucks, which,
under heavy escort, arrived at Dachau. The crematorium was fired up once
again. At the end of the day the ashes of the dead were dropped into a
brook on the outskirts of Munich. Symbolically, the cradle of the Nazi
movement became the grave of its leaders." (Conat, _Justice at Nuremberg_,
pp.506-507.) 

Such poetic justice, to be sure. To be cremated and have their ashes
disposed of like the innocents they despised and cruelly condemned to
death at Auschwitz is indeed quite fitting. 

And of course, having the corpses photographed kinda makes it hard for
Nazi hero worhsippers like you, Mr. Belling, to make up bizzare stories
about how they are really alive and well in Argentina or some such place.
No "Boys from Bazil" nonsense for _those_ dead Nazis, I'm afraid.... 

[snip]

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec  4 16:05:15 PST 1996
Article: 83707 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!news.texoma.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!ais.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Testimony, Memory, Etc.
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 11:47:23 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 207
Message-ID: 
References:  <329f3e83.12419695@news.gte.net> <580n3o$ngj@access2.digex.net> <32a45391.667833@news.gte.net> <5825lr$e2o@access4.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <5825lr$e2o@access4.digex.net>, mstein@access4.digex.net
(Michael P. Stein) wrote:

[snip]

> >>>     Further if memory of major events is considered to be evidence of
> >>>truth then in fact some 5% of the US population has been abducted by
> >>>space aliens.  (Into this you can also add ritual, satanic child abuse
> >>>such as the McMartin preschool case.)
> >>
> >>    Leaving aside the lack of source for that 5% figure, 
> >
> >       USA Today survey about two years ago.
> 
>     I may just go back and look for it.  It would not surprise me greatly
> if the figure represented those who _believe_ in the reality of alien
> abduction.  Your memory has performed similar mutations in the past, for
> example in the matter of the Yad Vashem registry of names (thinking that
> the three million known names represented what Yad Vashem thought was the
> total death toll - and BTW, you did not refer to YV by name but rather by
> description) or your belief that the U. N. charter of human rights
> specified the right to a jury trial.  (Someone who was not a regular
> poster here posted the relevant text and for once you agreed that you
> appeared to be wrong.) 
> 
> Would you like me to pull up the DejaNews quotes for those, or do you
> agree that what I remember above is correct?
> 

Subject:      Re: Holocaust/UFO Analogy
From:         mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date:         1996/05/09
Message-Id:   <4mtktf$s8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>

=============================================================================

mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <4m97d7$hr8@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>> According to a USA Today poll earlier this year there was some
>> huge percentage of the people in the US reported believing they
>> had been abducted at some time in the lives, something like 10%.
>> That is a rather larger number than "hundreds."  

>One might wonder who sponsored and interpreted the results of this poll?

        It is sort of surprising that you did not demand the date and
page number and then when I can't provide it, claim that I am
making it up.  Or are you getting tired of that ploy?

>And what about the significance, if any, of it? What critical thought was
>applied to determine its validity, what conclusions, if any, can be wrung
>from it? Furthermore, how was this "something like 10%" of alien
>"abductees" determined? Where they specifically asked? Did they volunteer
>the information? Is this poll yet another example of "lies, dammed lies,
>and statistics?" Or in this case, perhaps sensationalism and
>charlantanism? To whit:

>From _The Demon-Haunted World_, by Carl Sagan; pp. 64-66:

        It is also surprising for such a stickler on credentials that you
would cite a man with a doctorate in planetary atmospheres.

>"* For example, the September 4. 1994 _Publishers Weekly_: 'According to a
>Gallup [sic] poll, more than three million Americans believe they have
>been abducted by aliens.'

[snip]

=============================================================================


FYI, and amusement, the unedit portion of my reply was:

One might wonder who sponsored and interpreted the results of this poll?
And what about the significance, if any, of it? What critical thought was
applied to determine its validity, what conclusions, if any, can be wrung
>from  it? Furthermore, how was this "something like 10%" of alien
"abductees" determined? Where they specifically asked? Did they volunteer
the information? Is this poll yet another example of "lies, dammed lies,
and statistics?" Or in this case, perhaps sensationalism and
charlantanism? To whit:

>From  _The Demon-Haunted World_, by Carl Sagan; pp. 64-66:

"As reavealed by polls over the years, most Americans believe we're being
visited by extraterrestrial beings in UFOs. IN a 1992 Roper poll of nearly
6,000 American adults- especially commisioned by those who accept the
alien abduction story at face value -18 percent reported sometimes waking
up paralyzed, aware of one or more strange beings in the room. About 13
percent report odd episodes of missing time, and 10 percent claim to have
flown through the air without mechanical assistance. From nothing more
than these results, the poll's sponsors conclude that two percent of all
Americans have been abducted, many repeatedly, by beings from other
worlds. The question of whether respondants had been abducted by aliens
was never actually put to them.

"If we believed the conclusion drawn by those who bankrolled and
interpreted the results of this poll, and if aliens are not partial to
Americans, then the number for the whole planet would be more than a
hundred million people. This means an abduction every few seconds over the
past few decades. It's suprising more of the neighbors haven't noticed.

"What's going on here? When you talk with self-described abductees, most
seem very sincere, although caught in the grip of powerful emotions. Some
psychiatrists who've examined them say they find no more evidence of
psychopathology in them than in the rest of us. Why should anyone claim to
have been abducted by alien creatures if it never happned? Could all these
people be mistaken, or lying, or hallucinating the same  (or similar)
story? Or is it arrogant and contemptous to question the good sense of so
many? 

"On the other hand, could there really be a massive alien invasion;
repugnant medical procedures performed on millions of innococent men,
women, and children; humans apparantly used as breeding stock over many
decades- and all this not generally known and dealt with by responsible
media, physicians, scientists, and governments sworn to protect the lives
and well-being of their citizens? Or, as many have suggested, is there a
massive government conspiracy to keep the citizens from the truth? 

"Why should being so advanced in physics and engineering- crossing vast
interstellar distances, walking like ghosts through walls -be so backward
when it comes to biology? Why, if aliens are trying to do their business
in secret, wouldn't they perfectly expunge all memories of the abductions?
Too hard fro them to do? Why are all the examining instruments macroscopic
and so reminiscent of what can be found at the neighborhood medical
clinic? Why go to all the trouble of repeated sexual encounters between
aliens and humans? Why not steal a few egg and sperm cells, read the full
genetic code, and then manufacture as many copies as you like with
whatever genetic variations happen to suit your fancy? Even we humans, who
as yet cannot quickly cross interstellar space or slither through walls,
ar able to clone cells. How could humans be the result f an alien breeding
program if we share 99.6 percent of our active genes with the chimpanzees?
We're more closely related to chimps than rats are to mice. The
preoccupation with reproduction in these accounts raises a warning flag-
especially considering the uneasy balance between sexual impulse and
societal repression that has always characterized the human condition, and
the fact that we live in a time fraught with numerous ghastly accounts,
both true and false, of childhood sexual abuse.

"Contrary to many media reports,* the Roper pollsters and those who wrote
the 'official' report never asked whether their subjects had been abducted
by aliens. They deduced it: Those who've ever awakened with strange
presences around them, who've ever unaccountably seemed to fly through the
air, and so on, have therefore been abducted. The pollsters didn't even
check to see if sensing presences, flying, etc. were part of the same or
seperate incidents. Their conclusion- that millions of Americans have been
so abducted -is spurious, based on careless experimental design. 

"Still, at least hundreds of peole, perhaps thousands, claiming they have
been abducted, have sought out sympathetic therapists or joined abductee
support groups. Others may have similar complaints but, fearing ridicule
or the stigma of mental illness, have refrained from speaking up or
getting help.

"Some abductees also are said to be reluctant to talk for fear of
hostility and rejection by hardline skeptics (although many willingly
appear on TV talk shows). Their diffidence supposedly extends even to
audiences that already believe in alien abductions. But maybe there's
another reason: Might the subjects themselves be unsure- at least at
first, at last before many retellings of their story -whether it was an
external event they are remembering or a state of mind? 

"* For example, the September 4. 1994 _Publishers Weekly_: 'According to a
Gallup [sic] poll, more than three million Americans believe they have
been abducted by aliens.'

[snip]

The  gonadotoxic Giwer-swine is, as far as I can determine, a craven
anti-Semitic and racist troller whose only interest is in slandering Jews
and causing fights.  He has profusely and consistantly lied about what has
been said in exchanges (while accusing others of lying), refused to
document claims, pretended not to see posts which contain documented
refutation of his claims (even when they have been emailed to him),
engaged in actual libel, blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi
apologia, crude sexism, and has generally conducted himself with such a
complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be
no point in taking the time to read and respond to him.  For detailed and
documented evidence of this, please refer to


http://www.nizkor.org/encouragements/
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/email/
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/net-abuse/
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/forgeries.1096
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/antisemite 
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/simpering-bitch
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/fatbroad
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/c-word
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/plagarized-01.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lie-freely-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/thousand-dollar


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Dec  5 05:46:38 PST 1996
Article: 83749 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'These mentally diseased people were taken into the gas chambers'
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 1996 00:23:07 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 39
Message-ID: 
References:  <583j3p$nuf@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi146.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <583j3p$nuf@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
>   In article <5825hq$5kd@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>   
>     mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
>    In article <57nmol$8q0@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>   
>   
>   [mangled text snipped]
>   
>   Mr. Belling, once again I would ask you please demonstrate a bit of
>   courtesy (and manual dexterity0 in properly formatting your responses.
>   Such continued lack of such a basic courtesy can obly be interpreted as a
>   willful ploy to obfuscate the discussion....
> 
> Take it up with the server.

How "odd." Mr. Kennady used to offer similar lame excuses for _his_
inability to master a newsreader....

[snip]

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Dec  5 05:46:39 PST 1996
Article: 83819 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nol.net!df.lth.se!news.lth.se!solace!mn6.swip.net!newsfeed.sunet.se!news01.sunet.se!sunic!surfnet.nl!howland.erols.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'However, they were herded into the gas chambers and gassed'
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 05:58:02 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 243
Message-ID: 
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In article <57nj8h$8q0@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

[Mr. Belling's smelly dead fish snipped again]

>>> Oh, I see. In other words this is the same thing the Nazis said about
>>> the Jews.
>   
>> Care to expand on that a bit more, Mr. Belling? As it stands you're words
>> don't make much sense. (A not uncommon occurrance, btw.) 
> 
>> I thought it was simple enough for you to understand:  The Nazis claimed it 
>> was the Jews who were responsible for the war, and that was why the Jews 
>> were "getting their asses kicked" in the Soviet Union.  Capisce?
>   
>> And how were the Jews responsible for a war started by Nazi Germany, 
>> Mr. Belling? 
> 
> Ask your friends at the synagogue.  Why ask me?  BTW, who declared
> war first-England and France, or Germany?

I'm asking _you_, Mr. Belling because _you_ made the (inane) claim that
"the Nazis claimed it was the Jews who were responsible for the war."
Capisce?

Mr. Belling, that you try again and again to squirm away from answering
this simple question is simply indicative of that your claim is
indefensible -and that you know it.

[snip]

> I just think it would be a nice touch if Mr. Ferree said this to the 
> face of a disfigured survivor, preferably a fragile and aging old woman, 
> in front of whatever family she has left.
>   
>> I see. But then you glorify dead Nazis and defend their mass murder of
>> millions. Hardly suprising then that you'd like to taunt the Japanese
>> survivors of the atomic bombings. 
> 
> Oh-I am taunting the japanese?  How quaint.  I think it might be a
> good point of reference if you first post the evidence that the Nazis
> murdered millions of Jews and then tell us how they did it, and be sure to
> include proof.  

The evidence is in any public library, Mr. Belling. The evidence is in the
National Archives and other archives and museums across the UNuted States
and Europe. The evidence is on Nizkor and other similar websites. The
evidence is offered daily here in alt.revisionism. 

Yet you refuse to remove the Nazi scales from your eyes and _see_ the
evidence. Truly, one can lead a horse to water, but one cannot make it
drink....

> i am still waiting for those reports allegedly conducted
> by Dr. Larson on "gassed" inmates at dachau....what?  You misplaced
> them?....Tsk, tsk.

Oh, no, Mr. Belling. hardly "misplaced." It is in the Congressional Record
as I understand it. I thought that was made clear to you some time ago by
Mr. Edeiken? All _you_ have to do is go to a public (or university)
library that carries the Congressional Record, read it, and weep. 

C'mon, Mr. Belling! A little _research_ won't hurt you. Much. 


[snip]

>>> Listen, Mr. Marky Mark:  The 35,000 figure has long since been abandoned
>>> for the figures released by the German authorities at the time of the
>>> bombing.  
>  
>>  Really. Then why did the Dresden City Museum cite the 35,000 figure as its
>>  official estimate as late as 1995? (To my knowledge they still do.) 
>>  
>>> The figure was stated publicly on National News Services at least twice
>>> over the past 5 years.  
>>  
>>  Dresden City Museum. 35,000. 1995.
> 
> National News Service.  135,000. 1996.

You mean like in the _Russian_ (!) National News Service? Care to give the date?

BTW, you claimed "at least twice over the past 5 years." I see only _one_
cite. You are still shy a few cites, Mr. Belling.... 

>>> For the sake of the browsers, however, the real figure was closer to
>>> 135,000, perhaps higher.  
>
>>  Please cite a specific source. Or is this too embarrassing for you? 
> 
> Already cited.  How could I be any more embarrassed than you?  A puppet
> for a synagogue?

Mr. Belling, citing "National News Service.  135,000. 1996" is a partial
cite. It would be a bit more helpful if you also cited the date this claim
was made, and if indeed the Nattional News Service in question is the
Russian National News Service or not. (If not, _which_ "National News
Service would it be?) 

BTW, you claimed "at least twice over the past 5 years." I see only _one_
cite. You are still shy a few cites, Mr. Belling.... 

I would also note, Mr. Belling, your anti-Semitic innuendo....

>>> There never was an  air attack so devastating or so unnecessary in 
>>> the whole history of modern warfare.
>   
>> Oh please. Hamburg was a far worse. And all of the raids against German
>> cities paled against the Toyko raid. 
> 
> Thanks for citing further atrocities.  Dresden was by far the worse.
> Revealing that you never mentioned any German air raids.

Amazing. Stupifying even. First Mr. Belling "thanks" me for citing the
bombing of Hamburg (which incurred more casualties than the 35,000 at
Dresden) and then he says in the next breath that I "never mentioned any
German air raids." 

Is a frontal lobotomy a prerequisite to being a lying scumbag Nazi
apologist or what? 

[snip]  

>>> You have been given the correct answer and the reasons for it.

No, Mr. Belling, you have supplied much hot air and a belated partial
reference. 

>>  No, yo have repeatedly made appeals to your non-existant authority. Sorry,
>>  Mr. Belling, but that dog don't hunt. Please cite a specific source. Or is
>>  this too embarrassing for you? 
> 
> I will not do your research for you.  

Asking _you_ to cite the source for _your_ claims is a prerequisite to
taking your claims seriously, Mr. Belling. Given that you have now
(belatedly) supplied a partial (at best) reference, I can only now take
your claim semi-seriously. It would behoove you to clarify and completely
cite your references for your claim that the death toll from the Dresden
raids was 135,000. 

That you kick and scream at every step in doing so, Mr. Belling, can only
leave one to think that you are trying to hide something. Like maybe your
"sources" are as bogus as you are? 

> Look up the original reports of the authorities in Dresden who had to dispose 
> of the bodies. 

And which reports, specifically, were these, Mr. Belling? 

> However, that won't do for you as it attacks your shibboleths.

That's "shibboleth," you cretin. As in "the test word used by the men of
Gilead to distinguish the escaping Ephramites, who pronounced the initial
(sh) as (s): Judg. 12:4-6." (cf. _Webster's New World Dictionary_, Third
College Edition.) 

[snip]

>>>> But if Mr. Belling is somewhow trying to impress people, in some twisted
>>>> attempt to gain sympathy for Nazi mass murder, with shocking Axis death
>>>> tolls from the Allied strategic bombing campaigns, he treads on thin ice.
>  
>>> No, these are not "Axis" death tolls.  These are not military deaths.  
>  
>>  Since when did where the Axis death tolls restricted to military
>>  casulties? Since _you_ said so? Sorry, Mr. Belling go peddle your smelly
>>  dead fish elsewhere. 
> 
> Why should I, when the smell improves your stench?

Ah, a (unintentional) admission that Mr. Belling does indeed try to
side-track discussions away from his unsupported claims, Nazi apologia,
and lies with red herrings and innuendo! 

[snip]

>>> The "citizens" were civilians.  Your images are confused. 
> >  
> >  Nope. I think perhaps it is _you_ who are confused. Obviusly you have
> >  mixed up the fact that Nazis did not consider German Jews citizens of the
> >  Reich with German nationals being members of the Axis by the fact that
> >  Germany, their country, had treaty obligations to such.  
> 
> We get your drift Herr Rebbe.....

Sorry, Mr. Belling, but I'm not a Rabbi. I know very little about Jewish
law outside the Old Testament in the King James Bible.

>>>   According to _Webster's New World Dictionary_ (Third College Edition):
>>>   
>>>   "...the Axis the countries countries aligned against the United Nations in
>>>   World War II: origionally applied to Nazi Germany  and Fascist Italy
>>>   (Rome-Berlin Axis), later extended to include Japan, etc.
>>>   (Rome-Berlin-Tokyo Axis)" 
>>>  
>>>   I mean _really_, Mr. Bellinger! Surely are so utterly  _ignorant_ of
>>>   history as to _seriously_ suggest that Germany was not part of the Axis?
>>>   Or is it that you are so blinded by your Naziphillia that you can no
>>>   longer seperate your Nazi fantasies from reality? 
>>> 
>>> And who classifies babes in arms as the "axis"-you?
>>  
>>  German babes are German nationals, Mr. Belling. 
> 
> Oh.  Well, by your own logic you have justified the shooting
> of the the children of Jewish partisans.

Hardly, Mr. Belling. The killing of non-combatants in occupied
territorries, by the occupying power, in retaliation for partisan
activities is strictly forbidden by the Hague Convention (IV), Article 50
specifically. 

Nazi Germany was a signatory to the Hague Conventions (IV). Nazi Germay
also murdered several million non-combatants in Nazi occupied territories
during WWII. 

In contrast, both the Axis and the Allies considered each others' means of
production, which included the civilian populace (i.e the workers), to be
legitimate military targets. Both the Axis and the Allies bombed these
legitimate military targets. The Allies did not exterminate non-combatant
ethnic groups in Allied occupied territories. The Nazis _did_ exterminate
non-combatant ethnic groups in Nazi occupied territories.

[snip]

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Dec  5 05:46:40 PST 1996
Article: 83822 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!news.bconnex.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'However, they were herded into the gas chambers and gassed'
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 03:48:53 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 62
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References:  <5823bl$5kd@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <5823bl$5kd@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>    mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
>     
>   klewis@awinc.com (Ken Lewis) writes:
>   On Wed, 20 Nov 1996 08:06:11 GMT, hmazal@txdirect.net (Harry W. Mazal OBE)
>   wrote:
>   
> On 19 Nov 1996 23:08:55 GMT, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>   
>   Indeed, the allies had used and initiated the use of gas during
>   the first world war.
>  
> Is that so?  Mr. Blackmore will surely be willing to post proof
>   positive about this.  I believe that he cannot do this.
>   
>   Joseph Bellinger has been unable to back up any of his/hers/its assertions.
>   Stating that the allies initiated gas warfare in WWI is an example of
>  why 
>   cannot. However, it is most interesting watching him go down the 'Giwer
>   path' of unsupportable assertions.
>    
> 
> As usual, you lie.  The use of gas was begun by the French.
>   
>   And your citation for this claim is, Mr. Belling? What, you don't have
>  one? Oh, the shock! The dismay! The.... laughter!
>   
> >  For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
> >  Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:
> >  
> >  http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
> >  http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
> >  http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
> >  
> >  Mark
> >  
> >  > >>>>
> The info may be found in the book, "Vorsicht! Faelschung!  Which I
> have quoted from in the past.  there.  Now you have your source.
> Will you pursue it?  I doubt it.

Complete citation please. Author, title, page. And the ISBN or LC number
if possible. 


For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Dec  5 05:46:41 PST 1996
Article: 83830 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!node2.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'However, they were herded into the gas chambers and gassed'
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 1996 04:11:08 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
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References:  <584qgi$mp0@juliana.sprynet.com>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <584qgi$mp0@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

Mr. Belling, your continued inability to master your newsreader is quite
appalling. Is there some problem on your part? Perhaps a bit of remedial
help is in order? That you are mangling the formatting of the text and
often eliminating or invalidating the attribution characters, is confusing
the discussion. Please, have the common courtesy to properly format your
posts to maintain the proper attributions. 

[Text snipped due to Mr. Belling's mangling of the text, I can no longer
determine the proper attributions and assume the text is corrupted....]

When you have properly mastered your newsreader and repost your reply, Mr.
Belling, I would be more than happy to address whatever issues may have
raised....


For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Dec  5 05:46:42 PST 1996
Article: 83858 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!pumpkin.pangea.ca!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!news.idt.net!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!newshub.sdsu.edu!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Yale Eideken's Lie Exposed
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 21:47:50 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 54
Message-ID: 
References: <32A0C5C3.5B63@rio.com> <57skne$c90@news.enter.net> <32a3ecaa.44288588@news.micron.net>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32a3ecaa.44288588@news.micron.net>, kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

> Call the following number:  610-820-3100 in Pennsylvania (the number
> to the County Prosecutor who handled the case).   You can also talk to
> the assistant prosecutor Mr. Pete Richards and he will also verify as
> well.  

Mr. Smith, I just called the above number, which is the number to the
Allentown District Attorney's office. I had a phone conversation with
District Attorney Robert L. Steinberg, the prosecuting attorney in the
Freeman brothers case. 

As much as it pains me to admit, I will verify your claim that: "Mr.
Steinberg will verify that not only were the Freeman brothers not NA
members, but the Freeman brothers were not members of a formal
organization at all" is true. Mr. Steinberg made basically the same
statement to me in my phone conversation with him this morning. 

Mr. Steinberg stated to me that the though the Freeman brothers were
considered to be violent "white power" skinheads, and possessed skinhead
and neo-Nazi literature, they were "not found to be a part of any
organization" and when I specifically asked if they were members of the
National Alliance he stated that to his knowledge, and according to the
evidence revealed at their trial, they were not members of the National
Alliance. 

In th light of my phone conversation with Mr. Steinberg, I believe I owe
you an apology, Mr. Smith, for prematurely concluding that you, as usual,
where lying. For that, I am sorry. I will try and be more discriminating
in the future. 

[snip]

For those interested in proof of National Alliance member Brian Smith's
(aka "Kurt Stele") rabid anti-Semitism, pathological Nazi apologia, and
that he possses an IQ of a fence post (not to mention a sewer mouth)
please visit:

http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/stele.kurt
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/smith.brian.r


Mark

posted/e-mailed to Mr. Smith and Mr. Edeiken

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Dec  5 08:07:04 PST 1996
Article: 83873 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!portc02.blue.aol.com!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'However, they were herded into the gas chambers and gassed'
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 10:10:47 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 273
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References:  <5823uq$5kd@juliana.sprynet.com>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <5823uq$5kd@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
>   In article <57njlm$8q0@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>   
> > > >  dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
> > > >  SS-Doctor Kremer about his days at Auschwitz: 
> > > >  [Quoted in 'The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The 
> > > >  Free Press, NY, 1988, p. 258].
> > > >   -------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >  I remember I once took part in the gassing of one of these groups
> > > >  big the group was. when I got close to the bunker I saw them
> > > >  sitting on the ground. They were still clothed. As they were
> > > >  wearing worn-out camp clothing they were not left in the undressing
> > > >  hut but made to undress in the open air. I concluded from the
> > > >  behavior of these women that they had no doubt what fate awaited
> > > >  them, as they begged and sobbed to the SS men to spare them their
> > > >  lives. However, they were herded into the gas chambers and gassed.
> > > >  As an anatomist I have seen a lot of terrible things: I had had
> > > >  a lot of experience with dead bodies, and yet what I saw that
> > > >  day was like nothing I had ever seen before. Still completely
> > > >  shocked by what I had seen I wrote on my diary on 5 September 
> > > >  1942: "The most dreadful of horrors. Hauptscharfuehrer Thilo was
> > > >  right when he said to me today that this is the 'anus mundi', the
> > > >  anal orifice of the world". I used this image because I could not
> > > >  imagine anything more disgusting and horrific.
> 
> This does not seem to be a quote from Kremer's diary. In fact,
> it isn't. It is Kremer's statement at his trial in 1947 in Crakow....
  
>From  Kremer's diary (Czech, _KL Auscshwitz_, pp.214,215-216,218,222,223,225):



September 2,    Was present for first time at special action [49] at 
1942.           3 a.m. In comparison with it Dante's Inferno seems
                to be almost a comedy.[50] Auschwitz is justly called
                an extermination camp!

[...]

September 5,    This noon was present at a special action in the 
1942.           women's camp [51] ("Moslems"[52]) - the most horrible
                of all horrors. _Hschf. Thilo,[53] military surgeon, is 
                right when he said today to me we were located
                here in "_anus mundi_" [anus of the world]. In the 
                evening at about 8 p.m another special action
                with a draft from Holland.[54] Men compete to
                take part in such actions as they get additional 
                rations then - 1/5 litre vodka, 5 cigarettes, 100
                grammes of sausage and bread. Today and tomor-
                row (Sunday) on duty.

[...]

September 10,   In the morning was present at a special action
1942.           (5th time).[62]

[...]

October 7,      Present at 9th special action (new arrivals 
1942.           and women "Moslems").[74] Wirths finally back. Am
                acting for Entress in men's camp (introducing
                doctors, etc.).

[...]

October 12,     The second inoculation against typhus and strong 
1942.           reaction in the evening (fever). In spite of that
                was present at night at another special action with
                a draft from Holland (1,600 persons). Horrible
(Ho"ssler!)[76] scene in front of the last bunker! This was the 
                10th special action.[77]

[...]

October 18,     In wet and cold weather was on this Sunday
1942.           morning present at the 11th special action (from
                Holland). Terrible scenes when 3 women begged
                to have their bare lives spared.[82]



> ...Well, so much for his reliability. I do not accept the statements of
> people who were interrogated by the Poles and Soviets and then
> convicted in show trials.

Mr. Belling, I have produced (above) from Kremer's _diary_ entries noting
six (6) "special actions." These words were written by Kremer while he was
an SS doctor at Auschwitz, describing events at Auschwitz during the war.
No Poles. No Soviets. No show trials.

Now, Mr. Belling, what kind of event do you suppose these "special
actions" were that would evoke Kremer to describe them with phrases like:

"In comparison with it Dante's Inferno seems to be almost a comedy."

"...the most horrible of all horrors."

"...we were located here in '_anus mundi_'..."

"Horrible scene in front of the last bunker!"

"Terrible scenes when 3 women begged to have their bare lives spared."

Mr. Belling, what kind of "terrible scenes" was Kremer writing about that
would cause three women to beg for their lives? Perhaps illumination might
be found in some of the editors' footnotes to these "most horrible of all
horrors?" 

"49 957 Jews from the camp at Drancy (France) were brought that day to KL
Auschwitz. Only 12 men and 27 women out of that number were sent to the
camp, the rest were gassed in gas-chambers." (Ibid. p.214fn.)

"50 Kremer was one of the defendants at the trial of the Auschwitz camp
garrison. The trial took place at the sittings of the Supreme National
Tribunal in Cracow in the time from November 24 till December 22, 1947.
During the interrogatory Kremer had been repeatedly questioned. It was
then that he proffered detailed information on the subject of the meaning
of some of the entries in his diary. Excerpts from his explinations are
quoted in this publication under the respective dates. In the official
record of the interrogatory of August 18, 1947, Cracow, Kramer stated as
fallows: 'On September 2, 1942 at 3 a.m. I was already assigned to take
part in the action of gassing people. These mass murders took place in
small cottages situated outside the Birkenau camp in a wood. These
cottages were called 'bunkers' (_Bunker) in the SS men's slang. All SS
surgeons, on duty in the camp, took turns to participate in the gassings,
which were called '_Sonderaktion_' (special action - Editor's note). My
part as surgeon at the gassing consisted in remaining in readiness near
the bunker. I was brought there in a car. I sat in front with the driver
and an SS hospital orderly (SDG) sat in the back of the car with an oxygen
apparatus to revive SS men employed at gassing, in case any of them should
succumb to the poisonous fumes. When the transport with people, who were
destined for gassing, arrived at the railway ramp, the SS officers
selected from among the persons fit to work and the rest - old people, all
children, women with children in arms and other persons not deemed fit to
work - were loaded upon lorries and driven to the gas-chambers. I used to
follow behind the transport till we reached the bunker. These people were
first driven to barracks where the victims undressed and then went nked to
the gas-chambers. Very often no incidents occurred, as the SS men kept
people quiet, maintaining that they were to bathe and be deloused. After
driving all of them into the gas-chamber the door was closed and an SS man
in a gas-mask threw the contents of a Cyclon tin through the opening in
the side wall. SHouting and screaming of the victims could be heard
through that opening and it was clear that they fought for their loves
(_Lebebskampf). These shouts were heard for a very short time. I should
say for some minutes but I am unable to give the exact span of time."
(Ibid.) 

"51 A selection took place that day in the women's camp at Birkenau and
its result was the killing in gas chambers of about 800 women prisoners.
In the formal record of the interrogatory of July 18, 1947, Cracow, Kremer
explained this entry as follws: 'Particularly unpleasant had been the
action of gassing emaciated women from the women;s camp. Such individuals
were generally called '_Muselma"nner_' ('_Moslems_'). I remember taking
part in the gassing of such women in daylight. I am unable to state how
numerous that group has been. WHen I came to the bunker they sat clothed
on the ground. As the clothes were in fact worn out camp clothes they
werenot let into the undressing barracks but undressed in the open. I
could deduce from the behavior of these women that they realized what was
awaiting them. They begged the SS men to be allowed to live, they wept,
but all of them were to the gas chamber and gassed. Being an anatomist I
had seen many horrors, had to do with corpses, but what I then saw was not
to be compared with anything seen ever before. It was under the influence
of these impressions that I had noted in my diary, under the date
September 5, 1942, 'The most horrible all horrors, _Hauptsturmfu"hrer_
Thilo - was right saying today to me that we were located here in the
'_anus mundi_'. I had used this expression becuase I could not imagine
anything more sickening and more horrible.'" (Ibid. p.215fn.) 

"76 _SS Obersturnfu"hrer_ Ho"ssler was camp manager
(_Schutzhaftlagerfu"hrer_) in the women's camp at Birkenau." (Ibid.
p.223fn.) 

"77 1,703 Jews from Holland were brought that day to KL Auschwitz. 344 men
and 108 women were directed to the camp as prisoners. The rest were killed
in gas-chambers.

"In the formal record of the interrogatory of July 18, 1947, in Cracow,
Kremer had the following explination for this entry: 'In connection with
the gassing action, described by me in my diary under the date October 12,
1942. I have to explain that circa 1,6000 Dutchmen were then gassed. This
is an approximate number which I had put down after hearing it mentioned
by others. This action was conducted by SS officer Ho"ssler. I remember
how he had tried to drive the whole group into one bunker. He was
successful except for one man whom it was not by any means possible to
squeeze inside the bunker. This man was killed by Ho"ssler with a pistol
shot. I therefore wrote in my diary about horrible scenes in front of the
last bunker and I mentioned Ho"ssler's name in connection with this
incident." (Ibid. pp.223fn-224fn.) 

"82 1,710 Jews from Holland were brought that day to KL Auschwitz. 116
women were directed to the camp as prisoners. The rest were killed in gas
chambers (number unkown).

"In the formal record of the interrogatory of July 18, 1947, Cracow,
Kremer made the following statement in connection with that entry: 'During
the special action, described by me in my diary under the date of October
18, 1942, three women from Holland refused to enter the gas-chamber and
begged for their lives. They were young and healthy women, but their
begging was of no avial. The SS men, taking part in the action, shot them
on the spot'." (Ibid. pp.225fn-226fn.) 

[snip]

> To the best of my knowledge, Kremer never mentioned gassing in
> his diary.  Am I wrong?  No, I am not.  Since I researched the source.

>From  Kremer's diary (Czech, _KL Auscshwitz_, p.236):



March 1,   Went today to shoemaker Grevsmu"hl to be regis-
1943.      tered there a leaflet sent him from Kat-
           towitz by the Socialist Party of Germany.[113] The
           leaflet informed that we had already liquidated
           2 million Jews, by shooting or gassing.



"113 The leaflet was, of course, illegal, because the German Socialist
Party was declared illegal." (Ibid. p.236fn.) 

Interesting, is it not, Mr. Belling, that an illegal leaflet by a banned
German political party causes nary an outcry or refutation from the good
Nazi and SS Obersturmfu"hrer Kremer? Why would that be? Perhaps because he
_knew_ that Jews _were_ being shot and gassed? That he _knew_ it was
_true_ because he had _seen_ such with his own eyes and obliquely wrote
about it in his diary? 

[snip]

> Kindly answer my question about gassing being specifically
> referred to in Kremer's diary.

And this is supposed to mean exactly what, Mr. Belling? That no homicidal
gassings were witnessed by SS Obersturmfu"hrer Kremer? You did know that
Kremer was never executed by the Polish government for his crimes, yes?
That he served a ten year sentence and was returned to West Germay where
he was later again tried and convicted of war crimes? (He was again
sentanced to ten years, which covered by his prior imprisonment in Poland
[cf. Ibid. p.8].) That means, Mr. Belling, that Kremer was a free man in
West Germany until his death in the sixties. Did Kremer, after he was
free, offer some other explination for the phrase "special action" besides
"the action of gassing people...which were called '_Sonderaktion_'," Mr.
Belling? 

Finally, Mr. Belling, given that you seem to disagree with the
historically accepted meaning of "special treatment" (Sonderaktion) in the
context of its use at Auschwitz and in the Nazi extermination pogroms,
perhaps _you_ will offer _your_ "definition" (with full citations, please)
of "Sonderaktion" within the framework of the historical evidence?

Here's your chance to be a "Revisionist scholar," Mr. Belling! Go for it!


For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Dec  5 15:35:56 PST 1996
Article: 83968 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!uunet!in2.uu.net!199.94.215.18!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'These mentally diseased people were taken into the gas chambers'
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 03:41:27 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 80
Message-ID: 
References:  <5825hq$5kd@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <5825hq$5kd@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>    mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
>   In article <57nmol$8q0@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>   

[mangled text snipped]

Mr. Belling, once again I would ask you please demonstrate a bit of
courtesy (and manual dexterity0 in properly formatting your responses.
Such continued lack of such a basic courtesy can obly be interpreted as a
willful ploy to obfuscate the discussion....

>  It was law.  The law was later rescinded.
>   
>   And your cite for this is, Mr. Belling? What, don't have one? How
>   unsurprising, especially given the following:
>   
> >  "With the collaboration of Dr. Herbert Linden, the specialist in affairs
> >  concerning the mentally ill at the Interior Ministry and a member of the
> >  Reich committee for 'children euthanasia,' Bouhler and Brandt put together
> >  a list of physicians whom they considered suitable, on a basis of their
> >  opinions and their professional qualifications, to take part in the
> >  proposed operation....
> >  
> >  "Bouhler and Brandt had probably benn choesn because they belonged to the
> >  Fu"hrer's Chancellery, so that Hitler's private chancellery and not some
> >  public administration would be responsible for the messures to be adopted.
> >  It would thus be much easier to keep these measures secret, as they would
> >  be outside state control." 
> >  
> >  "...The proposed methods of killing were explained to the physicians, and
> >  it was made clear that Hitler refused- for political reasons -to make the
> >  measures law, and that absolute secrecy was required. The physicians were,
> >  however, given assurances that they would be safe from any criminal
> >  prosecution."  (Kogon, _Nazi Mass Murder_, p.15.) 
> >   Like I said: Hitler's "Euthanasia" program was state sponsored murder.
> 
> 
> No.  It was law for a brief period.

Again, Mr. Belling, and your source for your unsupported assertion is? 

> The law was rescinded after numerous complaints lodged by the
> public and Bishop Galen, as well as famed German war ace, Molders.
> Source:  Vorsicht!  Faelschung!  Munich.

It was not a law, Mr. Belling. To date nothing you have posted indicates
that it was. You simply makes apeals, again and again, to your (ersatz)
authority, as if Because You Say So makes it so. 

The only thing such behavior evidences, Mr. Belling, is that you motivated
by irrational and dogmatic beliefs and that you are blind to any evidence
that contradicts your irrational and dogmatic beliefs. It is becomeing
embarrassinly obvious, Mr. Belling, that you have zero interest in
rational debate, but are merely yet another hairshirted Nazi apologists
skulking about the digital street corners haranguing passers-by with his
insane diatribes. 

"Never try to reason the prejudice out of a man. It wasn't reasoned into
him, and cannot be reasoned out."
            
                -Sydney Smith 

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Dec  5 17:55:29 PST 1996
Article: 84002 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!uunet!in3.uu.net!205.252.116.190!feed1.news.erols.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'However, they were herded into the gas chambers and gassed'
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 03:47:07 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 48
Message-ID: 
References:  <5821h9$5kd@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <5821h9$5kd@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>    mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
>   In article , karlpov@access5.digex.net (Charles
>   R.L. Power) wrote:
>   
>    rblackmore@juno.com writes:
>    
>    Ask your friends at the synagogue.  Why ask me?  BTW, who declared
>    war first-England and France, or Germany?
>    
>    Germany first launched its aggression against Czechoslovakia, which
>    Britain and France were obligated by treaty to protect but did not,
>    and then Poland, which Britain and France were obligated by treaty
>    to protect, at which point they did the honorable thing. You have a
>    problem with this?
> 
> OK.  Poland annexed Tschen at the same time which was also part
> of Czechoslovakia, and other European countries grabbed slices of
> the severed state as well.  So the British and French would have been
> obligated to attack them as well.  Also, the Soviet Union invaded Poland
> from the east, and your "honorable" friends were obligated to declare war
> on them as well.  Instead, your buddies Roosevelt and Churchill simply handed
> Poland over to Stalin on a silver platter at the end of the war.  And you say
> that the war began over Poland's right to sovernignity?  Thats a good one, 
> Mark.

Er, wrong person, Mr. Belling. Ain't it a pain when your sloppiness in
keeping the attributions straight bites you in the ass? 

[snip]

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Dec  5 17:55:30 PST 1996
Article: 84005 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nol.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.webspan.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: edm.general,alt.censorship,can.general,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ACUMEN SILENCED !!???Gauleiter Gross wants to be Fuehrer of Freenet
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 1996 02:05:55 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 61
Message-ID: 
References: <585mn4$io0$4@news.sas.ab.ca>  <586t05$6f8$3@news.sas.ab.ca> <32a72f16.6607311@news.micron.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi146.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.censorship:111350 can.general:98909 alt.revisionism:84005

In article <32a72f16.6607311@news.micron.net>, kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

[snip]

> Rather the purpose of the Holofraud is to make Germans, European
> nationalism, and White loyalists look bad and while making Jews look
> saintly and per$ecuted.
> 
> Kurt Stele

On the contrary, Mr. Smith is doing a fine job all by himself in making
"White loyalists" (i.e. his buddies in the National Alliance and other
assorted kooks, racists, anti-Semites, and bigots) "look bad" (i.e. like
kooks, racists, anti-Semites, and bigots). 

Given this, one can only wonder if Mr. Smith's keepers at the National
Alliance realize he has escaped his padded cell and is skulking about the
digital street corners haranguing passers-by with his insane diatribes and
shooting their "cause" repeatedly in both feet? 

> At the Nuremberg Tribunal, chief U.S. prosecutor Robert Jackson
> charged that the Germans invented" a device to instantaneously
> "vaporize" 20,000 Jews near Auschwitz "in such a way that there was no
> trace left of them." IMT blue series, Vol. 16, p. 529-530. (June 21,
> 1946).  No reputable historian now accepts this fanciful tale.

And only pathetic little Nazis like Mr. Smith keep repeating such lies.
The absolute moral and intellectual depravity of Mr. Smith and his Nazi
ilk in continuing to promulgate this is revealed at: 

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/j/jackson.robert/vaporizing-device-context

For those interested in proof of National Alliance member Brian Smith's
(aka "Kurt Stele") rabid anti-Semitism, pathological Nazi apologia, and
that he possses an IQ of a fence post (not to mention a sewer mouth)
please visit:

http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/stele.kurt
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/smith.brian.r

"The truth is spread on the record before us, and all we have to do is
state the truth plainly. The German militarists joined forces with Hitler
and with him created the Third Reich; with him they deliberately made a
world in which might was all that mattered; with him him they plunged the
world into war, and spread terror and devestation over the continent of
Europe. They dealt a blow at all mankind; a blow so savage and foul that
the conscience of the world will reel for years to come. This was not war;
it was crime. This was not soldiering; it was savagery. We cannot make
history over again, but we can see that it is written true."  -Telford
Taylor

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Dec  5 17:55:31 PST 1996
Article: 84006 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!news-out.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!peerfeed.internetmci.com!news.uoregon.edu!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Clearing the air about Posen
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 03:12:13 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 44
Message-ID: 
References: <5803lv$ape@news.enter.net> <58277e$5kd@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <58277e$5kd@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) writes:
> >  >   The Criminal Giwer  rewrites some more history:
> >  >  On 1 Dec 1996 08:38:09 GMT, brainh@itsa.ucsf.edu (Brian Harmon) wrote:
> >  
> >  >  >>What I am questioning and what I have always questioned is
> the authenticity of the soound recording which was allegedly 
> taken of the speech in question. 
>   
> This has been discussed in the past, i believe Matt Giwer
> made similar statements.  
>   
> A wager was proposed to Mr. Giwer:
>  
>   Himmler's Ponzan speech would be sent to experts
>   to determine if the speech is authentic, the loser 
>   (whether it woulkd be Giwer or Nizkor) would pay
>   the costs of the analysis.
>   
> Are you game?

The question is, Mr. Belling, are _you_ game? 

Or are you, as I suspect, all mouth and no spine? 

[snip]

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Dec  6 04:16:32 PST 1996
Article: 84012 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Israeli Court Values Palestinian Life at One-Third of a Cent
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 1996 02:10:24 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 35
Message-ID: 
References: <57ijsd$6f8@access5.digex.net> <19961204224400.RAA10695@ladder01.news.aol.com> <32a6bcfe.38631279@news.gte.net> <32a72f09.6594017@news.micron.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi146.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32a72f09.6594017@news.micron.net>, kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

[snip]

> The Jewish treatment of Palestinians is indeed highly relevant to any
> evaluation of the "Holocaust."

And will Mr. Smith support this absurd claim with something a bit more
authoritive than than Because He Says So? 

For those interested in proof of National Alliance member Brian Smith's
(aka "Kurt Stele") rabid anti-Semitism, pathological Nazi apologia, and
that he possses an IQ of a fence post (not to mention a sewer mouth)
please visit:

http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/stele.kurt
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/smith.brian.r

"In Jerusalem there is a memorial site for the six million Jews murdered
by the Nazi's during World War 2. It is called Yad Vashem and was raised
1953. An avenue called "The Avenue of the Righteous" runs through this
site. The wind whispers continuously through the several hundred trees
planted there. Each and every tree has been planted to honor a non-Jewish
person risking his or her life to save Jews from the Nazi murderers." 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Dec  6 04:16:33 PST 1996
Article: 84052 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!panix!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi147.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'However, they were herded into the gas chambers and gassed'
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 1996 08:16:13 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 181
Message-ID: 
References:  <587c02$3g7@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi147.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <587c02$3g7@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>    mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
>   In article <584msm$hkt@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>   

[snip]

>  I gave you the source in a previous post.
>  
>   No, Mr. Bel;ling, that was an incomplete cite. Please give a full 
>   cittion: Author, title, page.
>   
>  As if you could care.......You have the source...research it.  I
>  gave you the title, BTW.

Oh, please, Mr. Belling! Such chutzpuh! You have repeatedly refused to
provide  a full citation. Why is this so difficult for you?  Especially
when _you_ demand such precision of others? If there some "diffculty" on
your part in fullfilling such a simple request, or is it simply hypocrisy
on your part? 

>   Mr. Belling, your continued evasion is quite telling of your inability to
>   parroting fictions that something somebody else has fed you. 
>   
>   _If_, you posses the book that you claim says the French first initiated
>   chemical warfare in WWI, it would be a small matter to spend a few 
>    minutes to find the exact page where this is noted. It would be a small 
>    matter of  a few minutes to then post a full citation of this. 
>   
>   That you can't or won't simply indicates to me that you _don't_ have the
>   book in question in your possesion. (It is also likely you _never_ had it
>   your possession.) 
> 
> Then why have I quoted from it extensively in previous posts?

Mr. Belling, as Mr. Curtis and others have repeatedly shown in the case of
your misrepresentations of the _Trial of Josef Kramer and Forty-Four
Others_, for example, that you have a proclivity to "quote" things that
don't appear (or to omit things that _do_ appear) in the origional text. 

Unfortunately, some people, such as yourself, do not feel compelled to
hold themselves to the accepted ethicical standard of intellectual
honesty. This is why it is important when citing sources that such cites
by complete and explicit. It makes it reletively easy to verify that the
source has been faithfully cited. 

>  Thus, the implication- at best -is that you are
>  speaking about something off the top of your head and are mistaken, but
>  refuse to admit this.
> 
> I will admit this is a possibility.

How coy, Mr. Belling! Do you not posses the presence of mind to know when
you are speaking off the top off your head vs. citing text verbatim from a
source in your possesssion? Is there some mental "confusion" on your part
that prevents you from performing such elementary discrimination? 

>  Or, Mr. Belling, at worst you are dishonestly
>   fabricating your claim out of thin air. (Probably due to your misplaced
>   Germanophilla.) 
> 
> I wouldn't do that. 

Unfortunately, Mr. Belling, your past practices tend to contravene such
claims. Your credibility, Mr. Belling, is not all that great....

> And my Germanophilla is not misplaced. 

Mr. Belling, given your perfidious apologia for such war criminals as
Kramer, Go"ring, Streicher et. al. and your apparantly inexplicable (and
unsupported) claims- such as denying German first-use of chemical weapons
in WWI and citing a completely bogus death for the bombing of Dresden,
etc. -it is a (undeserved) _courtesy _ to call your Germanophilla
"misplaced." 

> Would you expect an Afro-American to not defend his heritage, if 
> unjustifiable accused?  

Mr. Belling, the Nazi regime, its leadership, and much of its rank and
file  _haven't_ been unjustly accused for the crimes they comitted. And
you have certainly _not_ presented any _credible_ evidence that suggests
they were. 

> Would you expect a Jew not to defend his, under similar circumstances?

Mr. Belling, the Nazi regime, its leadership, and much of its rank and
file  _haven't_ been unjustly accused for the crimes they comitted. And
you have certainly _not_ presented any _credible_ evidence that suggests
they were. 

Therefore, Mr. Belling, such comparisons are simply nothing more than yet
another of your infamous red herrings that you offer in an attempt to
divert attention away from the singular fact that you are incapable of
making a  cogent rebuttal.

>   Either way, Mr. Belling, you childish evasions speak of a person with
>   little or no integrity, intellectual honesty, or ethics....
> 
> How wrong you are.

Then you have some other explination for your pueril evasions, apologia,
and lies? Please, Mr. Belling, do enlighten us as to the reasons for your
displays of intellectual dishonesty, evasions, Nazi aoplogia, and lies. 

> Hardly the kind of person that need be taken seriously in _any_ kind of 
> forum. 
> 
> Then why do you bother to respond to my arguments?  

Because, Mr. Belling, though I do _not_ take your arguments with any
seriousness, your lies and Nazi apologia should be exposed for the lies
and Nazi apologia they are. 

> Now, since you have badgered me for the proof that the French began the use 
> of poison gas I will give you the reference- in German.  

How droll, Mr. Belling! But thank you _so_ much for _finally_ shown the
merest modicum of decency to gift us finally with a "refernce!" 

> "Die Luege von deutschen Giftgasverbrechen im Ersten Weltkrieg
> ist auferstanden im Zuge des Golfkrieges 1991, als Massenmedien
> den angeblich drohenden Giftgaseinsatz durch Saddam 
> Hussein mit den "deutschen Vergasungsverbrechen des Ersten
> Weltkreiges" verglichen.
> 
> DaB die franzoesische und nicht die deutsche Seite mit dem
> Einsatz von Giftgas begann, bestaetigte auch Arthur Ponsonby
> in seinem......Buch:  
> 
> In allen franzoesischen Zeitungen wurde zu Beginn des Kreiges
> festgestellt, daB die Schwierigkeiten in der Handhabung dieser
> Bomben (mit Gas) ueberwunden und sie bestimmen Abschnitten
> der franzoesische Front mit vortrefflichem Erfolg verwendet worden 
> seien....Es stellte sich heraus, daB die Deutschen nicht die ersten
> gewesen waren, die Giftgas verwendeten.  Turpins Entdeckungen
> von giftigen Explosivstoffen wurden in der franzoesischen Presse
> schon vorher angekuendigt, ebenso waren die amtlichen Anweisungen
> des franzoesischen Kreigsministeriums ueber den Gebrauch von
> Gashabdgranaten schon im Herbst 1914 erlassen worden.  
> 
> Auch Otto Stuelpnagel fuehrte den Nachweis ueber die Erstanwendung
> der Gaswaffe durch Frankreich:
> 
> "Im Weltkreige sind Gaswaffen zuerst von Frankreich angewandt worden,
> Die Grbrauchsanweisung des franzoesischen Kreigsministerium vom  21.
> Februar 1915 hebt bereits die Notwendigkeit ausdruecklich hervor, dis
> Gaswehrgranaten slavenweise zu verwenden.  Diese Massenwirkung
> trat zum ersten Male am 22 April 1915 bei einem deutschen Angriff bei
> Ypern praktisch in Erscheinung......Wieder war es Frankreich, das zuerst
> mit einer reinen Gasgrenate, der Phosgen-Granate, ohne jede Sprengladung
> im Fruehjahr 1916 hervortrat.  Diesen Geschossen gegenueber war Deutschland
> berechtigt, auf Grund des voelkerrechtlich anerkannten Notstandes, ein
> aehnliches GeschoB einzufuehren."
> 
> Source:  Vorsicht!  Faelschung!  Munich, 1994, pp/ 58,59.
> 
> So there is your source which you were clamoring for.  

See, Mr. Belling, it wasn't all _that_ bad, now was it? I do hope giving
_complete_ citations to your sources will become a habit in the future....

> I shall leave it to your colleagues to translate it for you.  Knowing your 
> tactics as I do, you would only accuse me of mistranslating the text.

Indeed. That deniers have "mistranslated" text before is a demonstable
fact, Mr. Belling.

> Good luck, read it, and weep.

Don't start passing out tissues quite yet, Mr. Belling.... 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Dec  6 04:16:34 PST 1996
Article: 84066 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!news.algonet.se!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'the motor was then switched on by Gotringer'
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 06:29:46 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 46
Message-ID: 
References:  <57nmet$8q0@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <57nmet$8q0@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
> >  In article <32965ff9.66428812@news.txdirect.net>, hmazal@txdirect.net
> >  (Harry W. Mazal OBE) wrote:
> >  
> >  [snip]
> >  
> >  > The best proof that _anything_  that Dr. Keren posts is true  is that
> >  > Mr. Blackmore denies it.
> >  > 
> >  > Since his unfortunate return to this newsgroup we have been regaled
> >  > with countless one-liners.  His 145,000  book library must have
> >  > vanished like a thief in the night!
> >  
> >  Or perhaps is because Mr. Belling's "library" consists of _comic_ book?
> >  That might help explain his "countless one-liners." One is what one
> >  reads....
> >  
> >>>>
> If they are comic books, they are doubtlessly more informative than
> the sources you rely upon, which aren't even good enough for 
> comic books.

Even if Mr. Belling's lame reparte, were true (which it most definetely is
not) the gentle reader would certainly be unable to tell, as Mr. Belling
has to date failed to post anything more informative (of Mr. Belling's
character) than a pack of transparant Nazi proganda and lies. 


For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Dec  6 04:16:35 PST 1996
Article: 84075 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nol.net!df.lth.se!news.lth.se!solace!nntp.uio.no!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Air Photo Evidence ?
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 1996 00:19:49 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 56
Message-ID: 
References: <32a04841.689638@199.0.216.204> <57ppe7$k6b@news.enter.net> <32b1e5e5.20105076@199.0.216.204>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi146.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32b1e5e5.20105076@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) wrote:

[Moranic (tm) ad hominems snipped]

> >The claim was that there was no photography.  It was refuted by 
> >showing that there was photography.  If you think (wrongly) that 
> >it was other than Then check the reference, bonehead. You would find 
> >that the movies were taken at Auschwitz and Maidenek.
> 
> Would you know where one could get a copy of these movies? I
> would think they would be offered for sale by the adamant and eternal
> Holocaust promotional network.... 

In the particular case of Auschwitz, try the Soviet film, made in 1945 uon
the liberation of the camp, entitled _Chronicle of the Liberation of
Auschwitz_. 

> ...Personally I have never seen them referred to in all the many of 
> thousands of pages I have reviewed that are put out by the Holocaust 
> promotional network.

The responsibility for the Moran's (tm) ignorance about such matters can
only be laid at the Moran's (tm) feet. 

[Moranic (tm) drivel snipped]

The Moran (tm)  is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semite engaged in
blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi apologia, and Holocaust denial.
The Moran (tm) generally conducted himself with such a complete lack of
intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in
taking the time to read and respond.  For detailed and documented evidence
of this, please refer to:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom

But what else should one expect from a lying anti-Semite who holds wacko
beliefs, is intellectually depraved, hasn't the slightest clue regarding
Supreme Court decisions, or what constitutes a dud at the  box-office? For
evidence of this please see:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/1996/what-moran-believes.9607
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies/hilberg-out-of-context
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-menorah-faq
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-schindler-faq

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Dec  6 04:16:36 PST 1996
Article: 84078 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.icix.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!204.71.0.48!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newshub.csu.net!newshub.sdsu.edu!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: never trust a confession
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 1996 23:59:10 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 70
Message-ID: 
References: <57t2sc$1eoe$8@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <57udiu$ano@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <57udiu$ano@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) writes:
> >  In message <32a1a657.19393742@news.gte.net> - ec 1996 15:41:12 GMT writes:
> >  :>
> >  :>On 30 Nov 1996 02:46:11 GMT, weinecks@mail2.sas.upenn.edu (Silke-Maria
> >  :>Weineck) wrote:
> >  :>
> >  :>>That's why photographs are so handy.
> >  :>
> >  :>   There are no photographs of people being gassed as you are aware.
> >  :>There are no photographs that even come close to documenting people
> >  :>being gassed.  The few pictures we have of people in the camps when in
> >  :>normal operation and not towards the end of the war show nothing
> >  :>"inhumane" about their treatment.  
> >  
> >  There are no photographs of the Battle of Hastings.  Therefore, it never
> >  happened.
> >  There are no photographs of the War of the Roses.  Therefore, it never
> >  happened.
> >  There are no photographs of George Washington.  Therefore, he never
existed.
> >  
> >  
> >  
> >  
> >  
> >  --
> >  Gord McFee
> >  I'll write no line before its time
> >  
> >  
> >>>>
> Try this one:  
> 
> There is no forensic evidence to prove that people 
> were gassed by the Nazis.

But there is, Mr. Belling. 

> There was no evidence to prove Lizzie Bordon killed
> her parents, so she went free.

Irrelevent, Mr. Belling. 

> Anyway, how is it possible to take a photograph of an
> event that in all likelihood never happened?

You're begging the question, Mr. Belling. You (nor any denier) has ever
offered a shred of credible evidence that would indicate that the
Holocaust, "in all likelihood never happened."

Pretty lame, Mr. Belling. Even for you. 

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Dec  6 17:44:32 PST 1996
Article: 84093 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!news.bconnex.net!feed1.news.erols.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.sgi.com!sdd.hp.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'However, they were herded into the gas chambers and gassed'
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 04:58:41 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 414
Message-ID: 
References:  <582365$5kd@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <582365$5kd@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>    mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
>   In article <57nj8h$8q0@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>   
>   [Mr. Belling's smelly dead fish snipped again]
> 
>  Oh, I see. In other words this is the same thing the Nazis said about
>  the Jews.
>   
>  Care to expand on that a bit more, Mr. Belling? As it stands you're words
>  don't make much sense. (A not uncommon occurrance, btw.) 
>  
>  I thought it was simple enough for you to understand:  The Nazis claimed it 
>  was the Jews who were responsible for the war, and that was why the Jews 
>  were "getting their asses kicked" in the Soviet Union.  Capisce?
>   
>  And how were the Jews responsible for a war started by Nazi Germany, 
>  Mr. Belling? 
> 
> Why are you asking me another question?  

Because I would like an answer? 


> You asked a question and I answered it, and now you wish to deviate on to 
> another subject?

Another subject? Given that you claim that you wrote that "the Nazis claimed it 
was the Jews who were responsible for the war," I think my asking you how
were the Jews responsible for a war started by Nazi Germany is perfectly
apropos. 

Care to answer the question, Mr. Belling? How were the Jews responsible
for a war started by Nazi Germany? 

>  Ask your friends at the synagogue.  Why ask me?  BTW, who declared
>  war first-England and France, or Germany?

Which nation, without first formally declaring war, invaded another
sovereign nation Mr. Belling? 

>   I'm asking _you_, Mr. Belling because _you_ made the (inane) claim that
>   "the Nazis claimed it was the Jews who were responsible for the war."
>   Capisce?
> 
> Yes.  Apparently not only the Nazis claimed it, but so did Prime Minister
> Cahamberlain, according to an excerpt in the Forrestal diaries.  

Complete citation please. Author, title, page. 

> Perhaps certain people prominent in the jewish community declared that the 
> Jews were at war with the Nazis as well.  

And who were these "certain people prominent in the [J]ewish community,"
exactly, Mr. Belling? 

> 1,5 million Jews fighting in the various allied armies against Nazi Germany 
> wouldn't serve as a form of confirmation for you, would it, Mark?

And what "various allied armies," specifically, were these "1,5 million
Jews" members of, Mr. Belling? At what time(s) were they members? Please
be sure to include full source citations to support your claims, please.
Remember: Author, title, page.

>   Mr. Belling, that you try again and again to squirm away from answering
>   this simple question is simply indicative of that your claim is
>   indefensible -and that you know it.
> 
>   [snip]
>   
>  I just think it would be a nice touch if Mr. Ferree said this to the 
> face of a disfigured survivor, preferably a fragile and aging old woman, 
>  in front of whatever family she has left.
>    
>  I see. But then you glorify dead Nazis and defend their mass murder of
>  millions. Hardly suprising then that you'd like to taunt the Japanese
> survivors of the atomic bombings. 
> 
> 
> I have NEVER-defended the proven murder of any defenseless human
> beings-and you know it.

I know no such thing, Mr. Belling. You have defended Kramer, who was
convicted of crimes against humanity. You have defended Goe"ring, who was
convicted of crimes against humanity. You have defended Streicher, who was
convicted of crimes against humanity. These crimanls, Mr. Belling, took
part in the _proven_ murder of quite a few defenseless human beings, Mr.
Belling, and were convicted and executed for it. And you have defended
them. 

[snip]

>   Yet you refuse to remove the Nazi scales from your eyes and _see_ the
>   evidence. Truly, one can lead a horse to water, but one cannot make it
>   drink....
> 
> There is certain evidence I do not contest, when I feel it has met the
> burden of proof and reason.

Such as? 

>    i am still waiting for those reports allegedly conducted
>    by Dr. Larson on "gassed" inmates at dachau....what?  You misplaced
>    them?....Tsk, tsk.
>
>   Oh, no, Mr. Belling. hardly "misplaced." It is in the Congressional Record
>   as I understand it. I thought that was made clear to you some time ago by
>   Mr. Edeiken? All _you_ have to do is go to a public (or university)
>   library that carries the Congressional Record, read it, and weep. 
> 
> I won't weep, I assure you.  

That remains to be seen, Mr. Belling.

> However, be clear that I expect to see a complete
> result of toxicological tests establishing the presence of gas poisoning of 
> victims at Dachau.  

In all fairness, I will endeavor to give you a complete citation (i.e.
page number in the Record) for this as soon as I can. 

> You know that this information is not contained in this record, or is
> merely a paraphrasing.  

Actually, no, I do not know that, Mr. Belling. Do you? Have _you_ examined
the Congressional Record and determined this? 

> If this info was actually available it would have been
> published by historians long ago.  

The Congressional Record _is_ published and widely available Mr. Belling.
Have you tried looking for it in a public or university library? 

> It is for this reason that I believe you simply
> cannot meet the burden of proof which you placed upon your own shoulders.

Again, Mr. Belling, I will endeavor to provide you with a full citation.
This should resolve the issue. This, I would point out, is more than _you_
typically provide in your "citations." 

> And it was this burden which compelled you to remark that one day soon I would
> eat crow pie.

Indeed. 

>   C'mon, Mr. Belling! A little _research_ won't hurt you. Much. 
> 
> Nor will it hurt you.  Provide these reports and the media will taut you
> as a great researcher.  You will achieve fame.

I take it then, you acknowledge _your_ inadequacy in accomplishing this?
That you are incapable of finding the Congressional Record and perusing it
to find the information in question? 

Sure seems like it, Mr. Belling.... 

>   Dresden City Museum. 35,000. 1995.
>  
>  National News Service.  135,000. 1996.
>   
>You mean like in the _Russian_ (!) National News Service? Care to give the 
> date?
> 
> You'll be happy to hear that the date was on the anniversary of the bombing of
> Dresden.

Full citation please, Mr. Belling. Or don't you _know_ the actual source
for your claim? 

>   BTW, you claimed "at least twice over the past 5 years." I see only _one_
>   cite. You are still shy a few cites, Mr. Belling.... 
> 
> My memory could have failed me. 

How "conveinant." But I'm afraid, Mr. Belling, that dog won't hunt now.
You made the claim that of "at least twice over the past 5 years." I am
holding you to that claim, Mr. Belling. Please provide at _least_ two
(credible) citations made within the last five years that the death toll
for Dresden was 135,000 people killed. 

Or you can retract your unsupported claim, Mr. Belling.... 

>  For the sake of the browsers, however, the real figure was closer to
>  135,000, perhaps higher.  
> 
>   Please cite a specific source. Or is this too embarrassing for you? 
> 
> There are a number of sources which may be citied.  I believe there were
German red cross reports issued at the time, as well as the comments by
Harris and other historians such as ---yes---David Irving.

Full citations please, Mr. Belling. Author, title, page. 

> >  > Already cited.  How could I be any more embarrassed than you?  A puppet
> >  > for a synagogue?
> >  
> >  Mr. Belling, citing "National News Service.  135,000. 1996" is a partial
> >  cite. It would be a bit more helpful if you also cited the date this claim
> >  was made, and if indeed the Nattional News Service in question is the
> >  Russian National News Service or not. (If not, _which_ "National News
> >  Service would it be?) 
> 
> It wasn't Russian, but they might have quoted the original estimates of
the dead to embarass the western powers in some way.

Then _which_ "National News Service," Mr. Belling? 

> >  BTW, you claimed "at least twice over the past 5 years." I see only _one_
> >  cite. You are still shy a few cites, Mr. Belling.... 
> >  
> >  I would also note, Mr. Belling, your anti-Semitic innuendo....
> 
> No, Mark, I am not anti-Semitic, much as you might wish it.
> Why, I'd even welcome you in my home for dinner and discussion.

I don't dine with Nazi apologists, Mr. Belling. Or proven liars. Or
anti-Semites. 

> >  >>> There never was an  air attack so devastating or so unnecessary in 
> >  >>> the whole history of modern warfare.
> >  >   
> >  >> Oh please. Hamburg was a far worse. And all of the raids against German
> >  >> cities paled against the Toyko raid. 
> >  > 
> >  > Thanks for citing further atrocities.  Dresden was by far the worse.
> >  > Revealing that you never mentioned any German air raids.
> >  
> >  Amazing. Stupifying even. First Mr. Belling "thanks" me for citing the
> >  bombing of Hamburg (which incurred more casualties than the 35,000 at
> >  Dresden) and then he says in the next breath that I "never mentioned any
> >  German air raids."
> 
> Mark-the casualties sustained at Dresden was approxinately 135,000-maybe
> more.  

That is your unsupported claim, Mr. Belling. I have asked you many times
to support this claim with full citation to the sources you used. To date
you have refused. One can only surmise you are being evasive, Mr. Belling.
Perhaps this is because you are citing a source who, in turn, is citing
Nazi wartime propaganda claims? Hmmm? 

> I will cite you a proper source as soon as I find the one I am thinking of.

Excellent, Mr. Belling. How long will this take you? If your past
performance is any indication Hell will be frozen by the time you "get
back" to us....  

I do hope you are a bit more responsive this time. 

> Also, all the German air raids conducted in the course of the war against the 
> enemy wound not amount to the number of dead sustained at Dresden.  Shame on 
> you.

So? This was not because of Germany's lack of _trying_, Mr. Belling! It is
because the Luftwaffe was _forced_ onto the defensive by the Allied air
forces. That and terribly poor planning on Go"ring's part in _not_
authorizing the design and production of multi-engine heavy bombers, like
the B-17, B-24, and Lancaster, prior to the war.

[snip]

> >  > I will not do your research for you.  
> >  
> >  Asking _you_ to cite the source for _your_ claims is a prerequisite to
> >  taking your claims seriously, Mr. Belling. Given that you have now
> >  (belatedly) supplied a partial (at best) reference, I can only now take
> >  your claim semi-seriously. It would behoove you to clarify and completely
> >  cite your references for your claim that the death toll from the Dresden
> >  raids was 135,000. 
> 
> I have given you the date. The mention was made somewhere between 1985 and 
> 1993.

Full citation please, Mr. Belling. Author, title, page.

> I will quote other sources when convenient.  I promise.

I'm afraid that's not good enough, Mr. Belling. You demand that I provide
Dr. Larsen's reports at _your_ convience, yet you will support _your_
unsupported claims at _your_ convience (i.e. never)? 

I'm afraid that is simply not acceptable, Mr. Belling. 

If I am to provide _you_ a full citation for Dr. Larsen's report, you can
hardly  deny _me_ the quid quo pro of providing the _full_ citations for
_your_ claims! 

That, is, of course, unless you are a shameless hypocrite? 

> >  That you kick and scream at every step in doing so, Mr. Belling, can only
> >  leave one to think that you are trying to hide something. Like maybe your
> >  "sources" are as bogus as you are? 
> 
> No, they are not bogus.  I simply don't have all the info at my fingertips
> nor a large organization to conduct the same for me.  If I did, you would
> really be "illin".......

Then I suggest you do the honorable thing and retract your unsupported
claims, Mr. Belling. Obviously, your big mouth has written a check your
body can't cash....

> >  > Look up the original reports of the authorities in Dresden who had to 
> >  > dispose of the bodies. 
> >  
> >  And which reports, specifically, were these, Mr. Belling?
> 
> I believe it was the German Red Cross. 

Full citation please, Author, title, page.

> >  > However, that won't do for you as it attacks your shibboleths.
> >  
> >  That's "shibboleth," you cretin.
> 
> Typo-name caller.  You never make any?

Of course. But it is _also_ an erroneous use of the word. 

> >  As in "the test word used by the men of
> >  Gilead to distinguish the escaping Ephramites, who pronounced the initial
> >  (sh) as (s): Judg. 12:4-6." (cf. _Webster's New World Dictionary_, Third
> >  College Edition.) 
> >  

[snip]

> >  >>>   According to _Webster's New World Dictionary_ (Third College 
> >  >>>   Edition):
> >  >>>   
> >  >>>   "...the Axis the countries countries aligned against the United 
> >  >>>   Nations in World War II: origionally applied to Nazi Germany  and 
> >  >>>   Fascist Italy (Rome-Berlin Axis), later extended to include Japan, 
> >  >>>   etc.(Rome-Berlin-Tokyo Axis)" 
> >  >>>  
> >  >>>   I mean _really_, Mr. Bellinger! Surely are so utterly  _ignorant_ of
> >  >>>   history as to _seriously_ suggest that Germany was not part of the 
> >  >>>   Axis? Or is it that you are so blinded by your Naziphillia that you 
> >  >>>   can no longer seperate your Nazi fantasies from reality? 
> >  >>> 
> >  >>> And who classifies babes in arms as the "axis"-you?
> >  >>  
> >  >>  German babes are German nationals, Mr. Belling. 
> >  > 
> >  > Oh.  Well, by your own logic you have justified the shooting
> >  > of the the children of Jewish partisans.
> >  
> >  Hardly, Mr. Belling. The killing of non-combatants in occupied
> >  territorries, by the occupying power, in retaliation for partisan
> >  activities is strictly forbidden by the Hague Convention (IV), Article 50
> >  specifically. 
> 
> The killing of defenseless civilians anywhere can be said to be the same.

Would you care to name the specific internatinal treaty that prohibits the
aerial bombardment of military targets (means of production of production
inclusive)?  

> Why don't you just admit it, and show us a human face for once?

Why don't _you_ stop with your Nazi apologia and simply admit the Nazis
were a bunch of genocidal murderers who slaughtered 12 million defenseless
noncombatants? 

Gotta  bone stickung in your throat or what, Mr. Belling? 

> >  Nazi Germany was a signatory to the Hague Conventions (IV). Nazi Germay
> >  also murdered several million non-combatants in Nazi occupied territories
> >  during WWII. 
> 
> The allies murdered several million Germans and their allies in allied 
> occupied territory at the end of the war.

Full citation please. Author, title, page.

> >  In contrast, both the Axis and the Allies considered each others' means of
> >  production, which included the civilian populace (i.e the workers), to be
> >  legitimate military targets. Both the Axis and the Allies bombed these
> >  legitimate military targets. The Allies did not exterminate non-combatant
> >  ethnic groups in Allied occupied territories.
> 
> Not true, Mark, and you know it.

Sorry, Mr. Bellinger, Because You Say So is unnacceptable. If you wish to
assert the contra, then please offer a credible rebuttal. 

> >  The Nazis _did_ exterminate
> >  non-combatant ethnic groups in Nazi occupied territories.
> 
> No more than the allies.

Please support you claim, Mr. Bellinger. Which ethnic groups did the
Allies externimate in Allied occupied territories? Please be sure to
provide full citations in support of your claim. 


For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096



Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Dec  6 17:44:33 PST 1996
Article: 84144 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nol.net!df.lth.se!news.lth.se!solace!mn6.swip.net!newsfeed.sunet.se!news01.sunet.se!sunic!02-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!01-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!voskovec.radio.cz!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi147.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dr. Becker Implements National Socialism
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 1996 12:43:15 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 71
Distribution: world
Message-ID: 
References:  <581v3s$5kd@juliana.sprynet.com> <588kf6$eij@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi147.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <588kf6$eij@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>,
abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels-Ludwig) wrote:

> rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
> [...]
> >The so-called gas vans are really one of the most unbelievable
> >aspects of the Holocaust.
> [...]
> >It ought to
> >be noted that the German army had a number of gas vans attached
> >to particular combat sectors, which were used for delousing clothing
> >and field equipment in an area where typhus ran rampant since the
> >time of Napoleon.  Perhaps the Soviets captured one or two of these
> >vans in damaged condition and then simply allowed their creative
> >imaginations to run wild.
> 
> This is getting rather annyoing.
> 
> One has to chose whether "rblackmore" does not know the letter from Just
> to Rauff and lets his imagination run wild, or whether he does know this 
> important source and tells the untruth about its contents...
> The Rauff-letter is the most important source for the question of the gas 
> vans. It is a report to an SS department leader which deals with technical 
> improvements to be done with the gas-vans.
> If the "freight" of those vans really would have been "clothing and field 
> equipment", then the report would make one wonder about its marvellour 
> behaviour: It is afraid of light, presses to the back doors, dies in half an 
> hour and looses bodily fluids when dying, and is bi-pedal by the way.
> Of course there is no doubt that the letter is dealing with the killings of 
> people, human beings. I agree that the cruelty and cynicism of the letter is 
> unbelievable. But even more unbelievable is the cruelty and cynicism with 
> which "rblackmore" spits on the dignity and memory of the victims of his 
> idiolized Nazi heroes.
> 
> No, I do not have the url to this letter at my hand. I know that there is a 
> translation, I recommend the search facility.
> 
> Nele
> 
> [posted and emailed]


"...The application of the gas is not undertaken correctly. In order to
come to an end as fast as possible, the driver presses the accelerator
to the fullest extent. By doing that the persons to be executed suffer
death from suffocation and not death by dozing off as was planned. My
directions have now proved that by correct adjustment of the levers
death comes faster and the prisoners fall asleep peacefully. Distorted
faces and excretions, such as could be seen before, are no longer
noticed."

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/becker.august/becker-to-rauff.051642


For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Dec  6 17:44:34 PST 1996
Article: 84151 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!wesley.videotron.net!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-lond.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-stkh.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!eru.mt.luth.se!solace!news.stealth.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: R. Blackmore, public library
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 1996 00:25:02 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 46
Message-ID: 
References: <57hbcl$bb8$7@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <57nron$8q0@juliana.sprynet.com> <5819ma$t3o$1@gruvel.une.edu.au>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi146.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <5819ma$t3o$1@gruvel.une.edu.au>, ibokor@metz.une.edu.au
(ibokor) wrote:

> rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
> : >   gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) writes:
> : >  
> : >  I expect that Mr. Bellinger is exaggerating things just a tad.
> : 
> : Surprise.  you are wrong again Gordon.  I'll sell no book before
> : its time.
> 
> 
> I think that it is unfair of these sceptics to cast
> aspersions on "jblackmore"'s claiming to owning a
> libary of 45,000 or even 145,000 volumes.
> 
> I can think of several ways that one could acquire 
> such a collection,  for example:
> 
> 1.  Having inherited a modest estate, including
>     premises suitable for commercial/light industrial
>     activity, our shrewd businessman/businesswoman
>     leases it to a publisher who, in a desperate
>     "make-or-break" attempt to salvage his company
>     buys the rights to the Hitler Diaries from Konrad
>     Kujau and, expecting it to sell "like hotcakes",
>     has (1)45,000 copies printed and ready for distribution
>     when their being a forgery is revealed. Our publisher
>     has lost his gamble and is unable to even pay his
>     overdue rent. So the owner of the premises accepts
>     this collection of (1)45,000 volumes as partial
>     settlement.
> 
> d.A.
 
Ah, pulp fiction at its best! ;-) 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Dec  6 17:44:34 PST 1996
Article: 84154 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!news.bconnex.net!news.ac.net!pacifier!news.rain.net!news.peak.org!engr.orst.edu!newsfeed.orst.edu!newshub.tc.umn.edu!mr.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi147.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'However, they were herded into the gas chambers and gassed'
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 1996 08:22:55 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 47
Message-ID: 
References:  <587e7o$528@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi147.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <587e7o$528@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
> >  In article <584qgi$mp0@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
> >  
> >  Mr. Belling, your continued inability to master your newsreader is quite
> >  appalling. Is there some problem on your part? Perhaps a bit of remedial
> >  help is in order? That you are mangling the formatting of the text and
> >  often eliminating or invalidating the attribution characters, is confusing
> >  the discussion. Please, have the common courtesy to properly format your
> >  posts to maintain the proper attributions. 
> 
> I must inform you that when I send them from my screen, they look
> absolutely fine...what exactly is happening?

The attribution characters are missing or the their order is mangled, Mr.
Belling. This makes it quite difficult to acterain who said what in the
thread of the conversation. You have even confused _yourself_ in this
regard, Mr. Belling, attributing text (whose attributions you previously
corrupted)  written by Mr. Powers to myself. 

> >  [Text snipped due to Mr. Belling's mangling of the text, I can no longer
> >  determine the proper attributions and assume the text is corrupted....]
> >  
> >  When you have properly mastered your newsreader and repost your reply, Mr.
> >  Belling, I would be more than happy to address whatever issues may have
> >  raised....
> 
> I have no idea what I posted now. 

Pity. I was so looking forward to reading it.... 

> As I said I don't know what is happening as it looks fine at this end.

Indeed. However, it _isn't_ fine when _others_ try and read your posts.
Please, do make a better effort to resolve your problem with your
newsreader. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Dec  7 09:54:45 PST 1996
Article: 84269 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!news.bconnex.net!felix.junction.net!pumpkin.pangea.ca!eru.mt.luth.se!news-stkh.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'However, they were herded into the gas chambers and gassed'
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 1996 03:58:14 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 72
Message-ID: 
References:  <584msm$hkt@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi146.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <584msm$hkt@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>    mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
>  In article <5823kj$5kd@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>   
>      mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
>     In article <57oa09$57u@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>     
>    [snip]
>     
>    You are wrong again, as usual.  this is getting to be a habit with you.
>    The use of poison gas was initiated by the French.
>     
>     Again, your source for this fallacious assumption is, Mr. Belling? What, I
>     can't hear you... the cat got your tongue? 
> 
> 
> >  
> >  [snip]
> >  
> >  > >>>>
> >  > I gave you the source in a previous post.
> >  
> >  No, Mr. Bel;ling, that was an incomplete cite. Please give a full cittion:
> >  Author, title, page.
> >  
> 
> >  
> >>>>
> As if you could care.......You have the source...research it.  I
> gave you the title, BTW.

Mr. Belling, your continued evasion is quite telling of your inability to
substantiate your claim. It leads one to think that you are simply
parroting fictions that something somebody else has fed you. 

_If_, you posses the book that you claim says the French first initiated
chemical warfare in WWI, it would be a small matter to spend a few minutes
to find the exact page where this is noted. It would be a small matter of
a few minutes to then post a full citation of this. 

That you can't or won't simply indicates to me that you _don't_ have the
book in question in your possesion. (It is also likely you _never_ had it
your possession.)  Thus, the implication- at best -is that you are
speaking about something off the top of your head and are mistaken, but
refuse to admit this. Or, Mr. Belling, at worst you are dishonestly
fabricating your claim out of thin air. (Probably due to your misplaced
Germanophilla.) 

Either way, Mr. Belling, you childish evasions speak of a person with
little or no integrity, intellectual honesty, or ethics....

Hardly the kind of person that need be taken seriously in _any_ kind of forum. 


For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Dec  7 14:21:06 PST 1996
Article: 84295 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!news.alfred.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!news.fibr.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi147.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dresden
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 1996 10:32:08 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 70
Message-ID: 
References:  <5877lt$t8j@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi147.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <5877lt$t8j@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>    karlpov@access2.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power) writes:
>   The consequences of the raids, like those of the Hamburg
>   catastrophe of July 1943, were embroidered with false
>   exaggeration. The streets of Dresden, these accounts claimed, had
>   been so full of the fleeing lines of refugees that the fire and
>   air-raid relief efforts had been imperiled by the bodies crowded
>   together on the streets. Estimates that the city had doubled its
>   population because of refugees and that hundreds of thousands had
>   perished as a consequence were broadly accepted during the war
>   and long thereafter. Only relatively recently has a German
>   account returned some measure of reasonableness to the estimate
>   of results. Go"tz Bergander's book on the Dresden raids provides
>   a sober accounting of the subject. The estimates of one half
>   million or more refugees in Dresden cannot be substantiated. In
>   this city, virtually untouched by the war until the time of the
>   bombings, it was impossible that one half million refugees could
>   have been accommodated; there was no stoppage of traffic on its
>   roads and no enormous camps of refugees on the green areas of the
>   city. At the most, several hundred thousand refugees may have
>   been in Dresden.
>   
>   Moreover, the constant increase in estimates of the number killed
>   in the raids does not comport with the facts. Official reports
>   justify an estimate of between 25,000 and 35,000 killed. Figures
>   that rose to 100,000 to 200,000 killed lost touch with reality.
>   If accurate, whole divisions of men would have been required to
>   pull the bodies from the cellars and stack them up in open
>   places. The streets were never blocked by bodies and stories of
>   burning dead bodies in cellars are contravened by the simple fact
>   that lack of oxygen in these enclosed areas would have made it
>   impossible to carry out such supposed operations. A lack of
>   trucks and fuel to supply them made impossible efforts to carry
>   hundreds of thousands of bodies out of the city. Legends of
>   fighter planes strafing refugees, firefighters, and civilians
>   during and after the raids are contradicted by specific records
>   showing that these planes were employed elsewhere, not in
>   Dresden.
>   
>   UNDER THE BOMBS: THE GERMAN HOME FRONT 1942-1945, Earl R. Beck,
>   Lexington: The University Press of Kentucky, 1986, pages 179-180.
> >  
> >  
> >>>>
> Was this author there, Miss Flower?  Or is he simply another dilletante,
> like you?

Was David Irving there, Mr. Belling? Was Veale? Was Rodenberger?  Or are
they simply Nazi apologists, like you?

Pot. Kettle. Black. 


For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Dec  7 18:35:43 PST 1996
Article: 84358 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.ptd.net!news-out.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi147.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Clearing the air about Posen
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 1996 12:34:32 -0700
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In article <588jmj$atj@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
> >  In article <58277e$5kd@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
> >  
> >  > >   yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) writes:
> >  > >  >   The Criminal Giwer  rewrites some more history:
> >  > >  >  On 1 Dec 1996 08:38:09 GMT, brainh@itsa.ucsf.edu (Brian
Harmon) wrote:
> >  > >  
> >  > >  >  >>What I am questioning and what I have always questioned is
> >  > the authenticity of the soound recording which was allegedly 
> >  > taken of the speech in question. 
> >  >   
> >  > This has been discussed in the past, i believe Matt Giwer
> >  > made similar statements.  
> >  >   
> >  > A wager was proposed to Mr. Giwer:
> >  >  
> >  >   Himmler's Ponzan speech would be sent to experts
> >  >   to determine if the speech is authentic, the loser 
> >  >   (whether it woulkd be Giwer or Nizkor) would pay
> >  >   the costs of the analysis.
> >  >   
> >  > Are you game?
> >  
> >  The question is, Mr. Belling, are _you_ game? 
> >  
> >  Or are you, as I suspect, all mouth and no spine? 
> >  
> >  [snip]
> 
> 
> >  
> >>>>
> The comments on the tape do not prove your contention of 
> Jews being murdered in gas chambers.  

I never said they did, Mr.Belling. 

Therefore, it is irrelevant...

Hardly irrelevant, Mr. Belling, to seing you duck and weave.....

> and why should I pay....

Ah, a tacit admission that you believe the tape is authentic!  

> ...simply for the pleasure of watching you
> squirm, when I can see that everyday.

In your dreams, Mr. Belling. In your dreams....

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Dec  9 13:27:53 PST 1996
Article: 84668 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!node2.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Treblinka mass graves
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 00:19:50 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 88
Message-ID: 
References: <579q7e$c8d@Vir.com> <32aab7ea.8334649@199.0.216.204> <32b3e937.20955535@199.0.216.204>  <32b033ef.1222136@199.0.216.204>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi148.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32b033ef.1222136@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
wrote:

> >tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
> >
> ># When looking at the 1944 photograph of Treblinka, keep in mind
> ># there is Holocaust accounting that has the camp as being over-run
> ># by the Soviets while it was still in full operation.
> >
> >Tommy, according to all sources I have seen, the camp was
> >partially destroyed in the August 1943 sonderkommando rebellion,
> >and later that year dismantled by the SS. This was long before
> >the Soviets liberated the area.
> >
> >Perhaps you're confusing Treblinka and Maidanek?
> 
> Nope. The testimonial evidence for the Holocaust has it Treblinka
> was over run while it was still in full bloom. Nizkor files/Old Frogs
> Almanac.

Would the Moran(tm) care to parse that into English? A URL to the file on
Nizkor's website would be sufficient. 

Like: 

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/aktion.reinhard/treblinka/treblinka.02

(Oh, I alomost forgot: The Moran(tm) is riigi impaired and evidently
doesn't know what a URL thingy is....) 

Now, on examining this file it _does_ indeed claim that the "Russians took
over the Treblinka complex." It also says that "there was no lack of
physical evidence on display...." Of course, when I referenced three
authoritative texts* in regards to Treblinka, no such claims where made.
In fact, each text clearly and unequivocably stated that stated that a
rebellion by the prisoners took place at Treblinka and that the camp was
subsequently "erased," leaving no trace of its existance, in late 1943. 

Clearly, either Sachar is in error, or perhaps, the passage quoted omits
something that would clarify the issue. I would suggest that further
examination of this file is needed to either provide the proper context or
to revise (or remove) the text in question if it proves to be (as I
suspect) innacurate.  
 
* Gutman, _The Encyclopedia of the Holocaust_, p.1487.
  Kogon, _Nazi Mass Murder_, p.137. 
  Arad, _Belzac, Sobibor, Treblinka_, pp.173-178,286-294,370-375.

> When you say "all" sources you have read, which ones are they?
> And, how many? One or two?

One might ask the same of the Moran(tm)....

> Treblinka never was a "camp" of any kind. 

And the Moran's(tm) evidence for this is, exactly? None of course. 


The Moran (tm)  is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semite engaged in
blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi apologia, and Holocaust denial.
The Moran (tm) generally conducted himself with such a complete lack of
intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in
taking the time to read and respond.  For detailed and documented evidence
of this, please refer to:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom

But what else should one expect from a lying anti-Semite who holds wacko
beliefs, is intellectually depraved, hasn't the slightest clue regarding
Supreme Court decisions, or what constitutes a dud at the  box-office? For
evidence of this please see:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/1996/what-moran-believes.9607
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies/hilberg-out-of-context
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-menorah-faq
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-schindler-faq


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Dec  9 16:04:21 PST 1996
Article: 84673 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!node2.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'However, they were herded into the gas chambers and gassed'
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 01:14:55 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 162
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References:  <587c02$3g7@juliana.sprynet.com> <32ab261d.87562701@news.zilker.net>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32ab261d.87562701@news.zilker.net>, mike@aimetering.com (Mike
Curtis) wrote:

Note: I asked a German-speaking friend of mine to translate the text Mr.
Belling claims "proves" that the French were the first to use poison gas
in WWI. Neither my friend nor I make claims that his translation is
definitive, rather it is merely a means to futher the discussion and throw
more illumination on Mr. Belling's ersatz "sources." 

> rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
> 
> You could have done this from the beginning rather than deal in
> childish banter!
> 
> >Then why do you bother to respond to my arguments?  Now, since you
> >have badgered me for the proof that the French began the use of 
> >poison gas I will give you the reference- in German.  
> >
> >"Die Luege von deutschen Giftgasverbrechen im Ersten Weltkrieg
> >ist auferstanden im Zuge des Golfkrieges 1991, als Massenmedien
> >den angeblich drohenden Giftgaseinsatz durch Saddam 
> >Hussein mit den "deutschen Vergasungsverbrechen des Ersten
> >Weltkreiges" verglichen.

"The lie about German poison gas crimes in the First World War appears
during the Gulf War in 1991, as the mass media compared the threat of gas
use by Saddam with the 'German gas crimes of the First World War'."

> >DaB die franzoesische und nicht die deutsche Seite mit dem
> >Einsatz von Giftgas begann, bestaetigte auch Arthur Ponsonby
> >in seinem......Buch:  
> >
> 

"That the French and not the German side started using gas is also
comfirmed by Arthur Ponsonby in his......book:"

> What is missing in the ellipses?
> 
> >In allen franzoesischen Zeitungen wurde zu Beginn des Kreiges
> >festgestellt, daB die Schwierigkeiten in der Handhabung dieser
> >Bomben (mit Gas) ueberwunden und sie bestimmen Abschnitten
> >der franzoesische Front mit vortrefflichem Erfolg verwendet worden 
> >seien....Es stellte sich heraus, daB die Deutschen nicht die ersten
> 
> What is missing in the ellipses? 
> 
> >gewesen waren, die Giftgas verwendeten.  Turpins Entdeckungen
> >von giftigen Explosivstoffen wurden in der franzoesischen Presse
> >schon vorher angekuendigt, ebenso waren die amtlichen Anweisungen
> >des franzoesischen Kreigsministeriums ueber den Gebrauch von
> >Gashabdgranaten schon im Herbst 1914 erlassen worden.  

"It was established by all French newspapers at the beginning of WWI, that
they had solved the difficulty in handling these bombs (with Gas) and that
they were supposedly used in certain sections of the French front with
great success....  Therefore, the Germans weren't the first to use gas
Turpin's discoveries of poisonous explosives were previously announced in
the French press, as were official directives over the use of gas grenades
by the French war ministry in the fall of 1914.

> >Auch Otto Stuelpnagel fuehrte den Nachweis ueber die Erstanwendung
> >der Gaswaffe durch Frankreich:

"Otto Stuelpnagel [which means a nail you would trip over] also gave proof
that the French first used gas:

> >"Im Weltkreige sind Gaswaffen zuerst von Frankreich angewandt worden,
> >Die Grbrauchsanweisung des franzoesischen Kreigsministerium vom  21.
> >Februar 1915 hebt bereits die Notwendigkeit ausdruecklich hervor, dis
> >Gaswehrgranaten slavenweise zu verwenden.  Diese Massenwirkung
> >trat zum ersten Male am 22 April 1915 bei einem deutschen Angriff bei
> >Ypern praktisch in Erscheinung......Wieder war es Frankreich, das zuerst
>
> What is missing in these ellipses. Whenever deniers use ellipses my
> interest about what is missing goes way up.
> 
> >mit einer reinen Gasgrenate, der Phosgen-Granate, ohne jede Sprengladung
> >im Fruehjahr 1916 hervortrat.  Diesen Geschossen gegenueber war Deutschland
> >berechtigt, auf Grund des voelkerrechtlich anerkannten Notstandes, ein
> >aehnliches GeschoB einzufuehren."

"In world wars, the French were the first to use gas weapons. The
use-directive of the French war ministry in February 1915 brought the
necessity  of using gas grenades to the fore. [slavenweise is one typo I
can't figure out. Perhaps 'slavishly using'] The massive use came about
for the first time April 22, 1915 during a German attack in Ypern....again
it was France who first used pure gas grenades, the phosgen grenades,
without any explosives in the spring of 1916.  Germany had the right,
therefore, because of the emergency state which it was facing, to use
similar weapons."

> >Source:  Vorsicht!  Faelschung!  Munich, 1994, pp/ 58,59.
> 
> _Caution! Forgery! _  might be an apt title. You aren't misusing this
> source are you? You are known for this. This might be curious in that
> the discussion centers on the Gulf War claims vs. WW1 and WW2. There
> seems to be more to this than what you are offering.
> 
> >So there is your source which you were clamoring for.  

Mr. Belling, as usual, fails to provide a full citation: Author, title, page. 

> >I shall leave it to your colleagues to translate it for you.  Knowing your 
> >tactics as I do, you would only accuse me of mistranslating the text.
> >
> >Good luck, read it, and weep.
> >
> 
> No reason to get emotional. I require more complete information. Where
> may the book be found? You claim to be a bookseller, inform me.

I daresay that Mr. Belling has a hard enough time of informing _himself_,
never mind others! His above "proof" that French instigated chemical
warfare in WWI is a case in point. He evidently belives that phrases such
as "supposedly used in certain sections of the French front with great
success"; "discoveries of poisonous explosives were previously announced
in the French press"; and "official directives over the use of gas
grenades by the French war ministry in the fall of 1914" is somehow proof
that the French were the first to use posison gas in WWI! 

Even more telling of Mr Belling's intellectual dishonesty. Mr.Belling's
source's unsuopported strawman assumption that the "use-directive of the
French war ministry in February 1915 brought the necessity of using gas
grenades to the fore" is trotted out, only to be topped by an even more
puerile claim that "the massive use came about for the first time April
22, 1915 during a German attack in Ypern...." -in which the _Germans_
(first) used poison gas- is somehow followed the _later_ use of poison gas
by the French! (i.e "...again it was France who first used pure gas
grenades, the phosgen grenades, without any explosives in the spring of
1916.")

Given the above _misplaced_ German apologia of Mr. Belling's (still
incompletely citted) "source," one can only wonder at Mr. Beling's
motovations. Given that the Mr. Belling's source consists of fascile
assumptions and transparent fictions, one can only wonder at Mr.,
Belling's grasp of the German language and/or his presumed intelligence. 

In summary, Mr. Belling, to date, has failed to offer _any_ credible
evidence that the French, contrary to the historical record, were the
first to use posion gas in WWI. 

How typical. 


For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Dec  9 16:04:22 PST 1996
Article: 84679 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!node2.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Belling sees trap, dives in
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 01:34:25 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
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In article , karlpov@access1.digex.net (Charles
R.L. Power) wrote:

> Joseph Belling, posting as rblackmore@juno.com, writes in
> <58777d$t8j@juliana.sprynet.com> in response to the "Auschwitz
> death march survivor's story" I posted:
> 
> >And what you need, Miss Flower, is a lesson in honesty, because this
> >whole narrative comes from John Sack's book "An Eye for an Eye".
> 
> I never denied that it did. I said that it was reconstructed from 
> conversations with Holocaust survivor Lola Potok, which is 
> essentially true--reconstructed by John Sack. (I fudged slightly,
> as Sack used several other sources as well for this portion.)
> 
> >The next time you try and trick me, let us all know in advance, so I
> >won't have to embarass you like this again.-rblackmore
> 
> This is very strange. Yes, I did try to trick you, supposing that
> you had never cracked open Sack's book. 
> 
> As it turns out, you actually did make it to page 3 (the 
> narrative is from pages 2 and 3).
> 
> And you *still* put your foot in it, or rather dived in headfirst. 
> 
> Your message characterizes various details of Sack's narrative as
> "a clear literary rip off", "a clear fabrication", "not too 
> credible", "most likely a lie", and "Another lie". I must 
> emphasize that Sack does not in any way qualify the narrative: it
> is clearly what he believes, and what he intends the reader to 
> believe. He presents the story not as something someone told him, 
> but as the truth. (Contrast Sack's treatment of the death march 
> story with his attempt to cast aspersions on the claim that Czeslaw
> Geborski was a Roman Catholic, p. 131.) If Sack's sources are lying 
> (and despite your various sneers, specious arguments, and historical 
> fantasies, I find no reason to believe they are), then Sack is at 
> fault for his gullibility, a fault which certainly must be 
> considered when evaluating the rest of his book.
> 
> Yet you have previously characterized Sack's book as "100% 
> accurate" <57ng7c$8q0@juliana.sprynet.com> and "very well 
> researched and written" <57ujrd$dr3@juliana.sprynet.com>.
> 
> And you don't even *comprehend* how you've dived into it.
> 
> Incredible.

No. It's _typical_ of Mr. Belling: "Ready! Fire! Aim!"

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096

Mark


posted/e-mailed to Mr. Power.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Dec 10 05:42:59 PST 1996
Article: 84802 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!news.bconnex.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi147.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Treblinka mass graves
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 1996 12:45:18 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 42
Message-ID: 
References:  <588l1i$atj@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi147.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <588l1i$atj@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
> >  tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
> >  
> >  # When looking at the 1944 photograph of Treblinka, keep in mind
> >  # there is Holocaust accounting that has the camp as being over-run
> >  # by the Soviets while it was still in full operation.
> >  
> >  Tommy, according to all sources I have seen, the camp was
> >  partially destroyed in the August 1943 sonderkommando rebellion,
> >  and later that year dismantled by the SS. This was long before
> >  the Soviets liberated the area.
> >  
> >  Perhaps you're confusing Treblinka and Maidanek?
> >  
> >  
> >  -Danny Keren.
> >  
> >  
> >>>>
> Perhaps you're confusing these labor camps with death camps?-rb

And perhaps Mr. Belling is just plain "confused?" 


For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Dec 10 05:43:00 PST 1996
Article: 84828 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Air Photo Evidence" - Treblinka
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 1996 23:10:44 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 74
Message-ID: 
References: <329ba952.15778030@199.0.216.204> <32a2df3e.351684@199.0.216.204>  <32b9491a.6640926@199.0.216.204>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi148.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32b9491a.6640926@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
wrote:

> >tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
> >
> ># Even though the 1944 photograph shows Treblinka to be nothing
> ># more than a clearing, agriculture, some trees and three or four
> ># buildings, 
> >
> >Could this have anything to do with the fact that the camp was
> >partially destroyed in the sonderkommando rebellion, and then 
> >dismantled (in 1943)?
> 
>         No. There was no rebellion. 

And the Moran's(tm) sources for this amazingly stupid statement is? 

Interesting, is it not, that Arad has several chapters of his book,
_Belzac, Sobibor, and Treblinka: the operation Reinhard death camps_,
dedicated to the Treblinka uprising which too place on August 2, 1943? 

> There were no buildings. 

Interesting, is it not, that Arad includes several pictures, from the Kurt
Franz Album, of buidings and structures at Treblinka? Or does tghe
Moran(tm) insist that the "zoo" (cf. Arad, _Belzac, Sobibor, and
Treblinka_, p.93), for example,  did not exist? 

And the Moran's(tm) sources for this amazingly stupid statement is? 


> There are no signs of there ever being any buildings, other than what is
shown in the 1944 photo.

And the Moran's(tm) sources for this amazingly stupid statement is? 

Interesting, is it not, that Arad includes several pictures, from the Kurt
Franz Album, of buidings and structures at Treblinka? Or does tghe
Moran(tm) insist that the "zoo" (cf. Arad, _Belzac, Sobibor, and
Treblinka_, p.93), for example,  did not exist? 


[snip]

The Moran (tm) is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semite engaged in
blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi apologia, and Holocaust denial.
The Moran (tm) generally conducted himself with such a complete lack of
intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in
taking the time to read and respond.  For detailed and documented evidence
of this, please refer to:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom

But what else should one expect from a lying anti-Semite who holds wacko
beliefs, is intellectually depraved, hasn't the slightest clue regarding
Supreme Court decisions, or what constitutes a dud at the  box-office? For
evidence of this please see:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/1996/what-moran-believes.9607
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies/hilberg-out-of-context
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-menorah-faq
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-schindler-faq


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Dec 10 08:18:38 PST 1996
Article: 84835 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!news-stkh.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-lond.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi147.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'However, they were herded into the gas chambers and gassed'
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 05:58:21 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 147
Message-ID: 
References:  <587egm$528@juliana.sprynet.com>  <32a8b9fc.107717157@news.micron.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi147.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32a8b9fc.107717157@news.micron.net>, kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

Mr. Smith, the rabid Nazi and anti-Semite, and sewer-mouthed guttersnipe
for the neo-Nazi cult called the National Alliance, once more demostrates
his utter ignorance of history: 

[snip]

> The Allies never attacked the Soviets for its invasion of Finland.
> Only Germany.

Mr. Smith, Germany didn't invade Finland. Furthermore, Britain and France
(presumably the "Allies" in question) did not pledge to Finland, unlike
they did to Poland, to come to Finland's aid if any agressive action by
Nazi Germany threatened its sovereignty. 

> The Allies never attack Poland for its invasion.  Only Germany.

Mr. Smith, Britain and France (presumably the "Allies" in question) did
not declare war on Germay for Hitler's annexation of the Sudenten. Rather,
Britain and France capitulated to Germany's de facto annexation, which
resulted in the Munich Agreement. Furthermore, when Hitler blatantly
violated the Munich Agreement by annexing Bohemia and Moravia (thus
obliterating Czechoslovakia), neither Britain nor France declared war on
Germany. (cf. Dupuy, _The Harper Enclyclopedia of Military History_,
p.1133.) 

> The Allies never attacked the Soviet Union for its mutual invasion of
> Poland.  Only Germany.

Mr. Smith, Britain's and France's (presumably the "Allies" in question)
pledge to aid Poland was in regard to any act of aggression by Nazi
Germany. This pledge was given _because_ of Hilter annexation of Memel and
demands for the annexation of Danzig and Pomorze (i.e the "Polish
Corridor"). (cf. Ibid, pp.1125,1133,1136.) 

> The Jews were the primary movers for WWII same as in WWI: 

Mr. Smith, given that the historical record clearly indicates that the
primary "mover" for WWII was unquestionably Adolf Hitler, your (omitted)
Nazi drivel is irrelevent and unsupportable. 

[Mr. Smith's Nazi ranting snipped]

> You are hypocrite scum.  According to Marred Van Smallstein's logic
> It's OK to kill German civilians but not Jewish civilians.  A classic
> Nizkook syllogism.

Evidently, according to Mr. Smith's world-view, Nazi Germany's means of
war production and infrastrucre were not legitimate military targets. That
certain non-combatant ethnic/religious groups (such as the Jews, Gyspsies,
Catholic Priests, and Jehovah's Witnesses) and the general populace
residing in Nazi occupied territories _were_ legitimate military targets
-irregardless that the Hague Convention, of which Nazi Germany was a
signatory, specifically says otherwise!

Obviously, it is Mr. Smith who is the hypocritical (Nazi) scum here. 

> The deliberate incineration of ethnic Germans at Hamburg, Dresden, et
> al.  

The strategic bombing campaign waged by Britain and the United States was
at the time thought to be a gruesome necccessity for the prosecution of
the war. A war instigated by Nazi Germany's invasion of Poland. (And Nazi
Gemrnay's subsequent declaration of war on the United States.) 

It would be well worth noting that the Allied strategic bombing campaign
contributed greatly to the Allied prosecution of the war and saved Allied
lives. For all the flaws (both moral and operational) in the Allies
strategic bombing campaign it is should be kept in mind that:

"After the war, captured German's didn't seem to doubt the efficiency of
the disasterous effects that it had upon the war effort. Albert Speer
called it the unrecognized second front, as it diverted 2 million men, 30
percent of the gun putput, 20 percent of the heavy ammunition, 50 percent
of the electronic equipment, and 33 percent of optical equipment to
anti-aircraft units. Perhaps most important, 75 percent of the vital
dual-purpose 88-mm guns were diverted to anti-aircraft duty from their
primary task of killing tanks on the Eastern Front. Hermann Goe"ring
attributed the loss of the war to the American long-range escort fighter
achieving air superiority. Field Marshal von Rundstedt stated
unequivocally that air-power had made the difference. Most other German
leaders, military and civilian, agreed that airpower had won the war for
the Allies." (Boyne, _Clash of Wings_, p.287.) 

Small wonder then, that the rabid Mr. Smith and other Nazi fanatics and
apologists object so strenously to the Alied air campaign against Nazi
Germany!  

> Deliberate starvation of thousands of ethnic German civilians
> after the war...

Mr. Smith is beating a dead Nazi horse here. Would Mr. Smith care to
support his  unsupported allegations with the historical record? Would Mr.
Smith care to elaborate on any part the United States and Britain, for
example, played in any such post-war "starvation of thousands of ethnic
German civilians?" 

Of course not, as he cannot!

> ...the deaths of hundreds of thousands of German POW's.

Would Mr. Smith care to support his  unsupported allegations with the
historical record? Would Mr. Smith care to elaborate on any part the
United States and Britain, for example, played in any such post-war
"starvation of thousands of ethnic German civilians?" 

Of course not, as he cannot!

> Of course, that's 'OK' with the bent Marred Van Smellstein.  

Contrary, to Mr. Smith's fevered hopes, I wouyld hardly think any
"deliberate starvation of thousands of ethnic German civilians after the
war" would be "OK." 

Would Mr. Smith care to elaborate on any part the United States and
Britain, for example, played in any such post-war "starvation of thousands
of ethnic German civilians?" 

Of course not, as he cannot! 

[Mr. Smith's sewer-mouthed innuendo snipped]

Given the innumerable whoppers that can be laid at feet of the rabidly
anti-Semitic Nazi Mr. Smith, one can hardly give his rants any credence. 

One can only wonder if Mr. Smith's keepers at the National Alliance
realize he has escaped his padded cell and is skulking about the digital
street corners haranguing passers-by with his insane diatribes? 

For those interested in proof of Mr. Smith's (aka "Kurt Stele") rabid
anti-Semitism, pathological Nazi apologia, and that he possses an IQ of a
fence post (not to mention a sewer mouth) please visit:

http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/stele.kurt
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/smith.brian.r

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Dec 10 08:18:39 PST 1996
Article: 84842 of alt.revisionism
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'However, they were herded into the gas chambers and gassed'
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 01:16:12 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 30
Message-ID: 
References:  <57njvc$8q0@juliana.sprynet.com>  <32a3ec9f.44277746@news.micron.net> <58aj04$opu$2@gruvel.une.edu.au>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi148.rbi.com
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In article <58aj04$opu$2@gruvel.une.edu.au>, ibokor@metz.une.edu.au
(ibokor) wrote:

> Kurt Stele (kurtstel@micron.net) wrote:
> : 
> : "Good the last drop" sewage-guzzling Van Schmalzstink 
> : 
> 
> Anyone who reads the postings from Kurt Stele is
> indeed consuming effluent.
> 
> Since Mark van Alstine flatters Kurt Stele by
> reading his egestion carefully enough to
> answer cogently, Mark does indeed expose himself
> to the justifiable accusation of "guzzling
> 'good-to-the-last-drop' sewage", provided
> so generously by Kurt Stele, who seems to
> have an unlimited supply of it.

Anybody got some Alka-Seltzer?   ;-) 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Dec 10 08:18:40 PST 1996
Article: 84843 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 3 million Germans?
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 01:37:28 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 53
Message-ID: 
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi148.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article , karlpov@access1.digex.net (Charles
R.L. Power) wrote:

> Joseph Belling, under the name rblackmore@juno.com, in
> <58789l$t8j@juliana.sprynet.com>, writes, refusing, as usual, to
> give a source for his lies:
> 
> rb>Too simple for you to ever understand, Miss Flower.  I am through casting
> rb>pearls before swine.
> 
> Curious. Now that we know you're a man, you're bitchier than 
> ever.
>   
> rb>  As usual, I will have to embarass you again, Miss Flower.  Do try
> rb>to keep those knickers up.  First of all, let's take this:  You attempted
> rb>to discredit me by posting the following:
> 
> rb>rb> Yes.  I will suggest one.  "An Eye for an Eye" bu Jewish author John
> rb>rb> Sack, who details the murder of more than 3 million German civilians
>                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> rb>rb> after the end of the war by Jewish mass murderers, many of whom are
> rb>rb> still wanted for their crimes and are hiding out in Israel today.
> 
> rb>I never wrote that Sack used the figure of 3 million.  That figure
has already
>    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> rb>been published by many other sources, most notably the German Government,
> rb>whose files I referred you to.....What I wrote was simply my own
commentary-
> rb>do try to get things STRAIGHT, Miss Flower....even if you aren't so
yourself.
>     
> I don't have to discredit you. If you had even half a brain,
> you'd see that you've just rather neatly discredited yourself.

"Had even half a brain." Ah, _there's_ the rub.... 

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec 11 06:34:59 PST 1996
Article: 84975 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!xenitec!zenox.com!news2.insinc.net!onramp.ca!geac!lethe!abyss!news2.compulink.com!news.rns.net!maggie.ionsys.com!news.corpcomm.net!newstand.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish author on Germany
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 1996 23:50:29 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 27
Message-ID: 
References:  <57m87u$a4p@juliana.sprynet.com> <57ppii$1ln2$7@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <57ppii$1ln2$7@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord
McFee) wrote:

> In message <57m87u$a4p@juliana.sprynet.com> - rblackmore@juno.com writes:
> :>
> :>>   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
> :>
> :>SNIP
> :>> 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> :>>  
> :>>>>>
> :>Mark-go eat your buttered bagel.
> 
> What's wrong with a buttered bagel?

Buttered? Er, I prefer mine toasted and with cream cheese, thank you..... ;-) 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec 11 06:34:59 PST 1996
Article: 84976 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!xenitec!zenox.com!news2.insinc.net!onramp.ca!geac!lethe!abyss!news2.compulink.com!news.rns.net!maggie.ionsys.com!newspeak.ultratech.net!!news1.bellglobal.com!torn!howland.erols.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'However, they were herded into the gas chambers and gassed'
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 03:42:00 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 55
Message-ID: 
References:  <57nk0n$8q0@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <57nk0n$8q0@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
> >  In article ,
> >  gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca (Rajiv K. Gandhi) wrote:
> >  
> >  [snip]
> >  
> >  > You might, given that you are a revisionist, choose to demonstrate your
> >  > foundation for believing that the Holocaust did not hapen, in the face of
> >  > overwhelming evidence. You must have a reason for believing that the
> >  > Holocaust is a hoax. Explain that belief.
> >  
> >  Poor potty training? 
> >  
> >  For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
> >  Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:
> >  
> >  http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
> >  http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
> >  http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
> >  
> >  Mark
> >  
> >  

[snip]

> >  
> >>>>
> From a man who cleans toilets in a synagogue?

Mr. Belling, cleaning toilets in a house of God can hardly be deemed
unworthy. So if I were to clean them, I would hardly be ashamed of it. 

Besides, it sure beats licking Nazi boots. How's that tongue of yours?
Still sore from getting stepped on? Next time you might try asking Mr.
Smith to stand still....

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec 11 06:35:00 PST 1996
Article: 84997 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!world1.bellatlantic.net!out2.nntp.cais.net!in1.nntp.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!netaxs.com!netnews.onit.net!op.net!data.ramona.vix.com!news1.digital.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: agressive
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 01:39:51 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 51
Message-ID: 
References:  <588im7$atj@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi148.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <588im7$atj@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
> >  rblackmore@juno.com writes:
> >  
> >  # By the way, I speak 3 languages besides English.
> >  
> >  And he obviously lies in all of them.
> >  
> >  Remember his claim that Amon Goeth was "executed by the SS for
> >  mistreating Jews"? In reality, he was tried and executed by the
> >  Poles, after the war.
> >  
> >  When his lie was exposed, the lying Nazi apologist "rblackmore"
> >  blamed a "Jewish researcher" who allegedly supplied him with
> >  this false information...
> >  
> >  What a stupid, lying Nazi.
> >  
> >  Can he perhaps tell us:
> >  
> >  1) Who this "Jewish researcher" is?
> >  
> >  2) How come he ["rblackmore"] didn't know that Goeth was executed 
> >     by the Poles? With his "60,000 books" and all?
> >  
> >  
> >  -Danny Keren.
> >  
> >  
> >>>>
> Silly man.

Lying scumbag Nazi apologist. 

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec 11 06:35:01 PST 1996
Article: 85001 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: kurt stele and his nuremberg "cite"
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 14:33:50 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 57
Message-ID: 
References: <32ab5aaf.279953243@news.micron.net> <58fpj8$7sk@news.enter.net> <32ad365c.401745341@news.micron.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi148.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32ad365c.401745341@news.micron.net>, kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

[snip]

> Jackson presents it as a serious claim, and then goes into great
> detail about the claim.  

Given the innumerable whoppers that can be laid at feet of the rabidly
anti-Semitic Nazi Mr. Smith, one can hardly give his rants any credence. 

The record is clear: Justice Jackson was not _claiming_ anything. He was
_asking_ a question during his cross-examining of Albert Speer. 

> Jackson asks Speer whether or not Speer knew of this "experiment."
> That Jackson was seriously questioning Speer about a Nazi evaporation
> device reveals the depth of absurdity in the Nuremberg Show Trial,
> along with the quality of the "information" presented there (sic).  

[snip]

Again, given the innumerable whoppers that can be laid at feet of the
rabidly anti-Semitic Nazi Mr. Smith, one can hardly give his rants any
credence. 

As the the complete text will show, Justice Jackson line of questioning,
during his cross-examining of Speer, was aimed at establishing that the
reports "of a new and secret weapon were exaggerated for the purpose of
keeping the German people in the war" and to which Speer admitted that
such "was the case mostly during the last phase of the war." 

Only pathetic little Nazis like Mr. Smith keep repeating lies that "that
Jackson was seriously questioning Speer about a Nazi evaporation device."
The reason for this is noted in Mr. Smith's hopes to "reveal" the "depth
of absurdity in the Nuremberg Show Trial." Such sentiments, of course,
illustrate the  absolute moral and intellectual depravity of Mr. Smith and
his Naz ilk, as can be seen at:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/j/jackson.robert/vaporizing-device-context

For those interested in proof of National Alliance member Brian Smith's
(aka "Kurt Stele") rabid anti-Semitism, pathological Nazi apologia, and
that he possses an IQ of a fence post (not to mention a sewer mouth)
please visit:

http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/stele.kurt
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/smith.brian.r

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec 11 09:40:07 PST 1996
Article: 85041 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Air Photo Evidence" - Treblinka
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 07:56:22 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
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References: <329ba952.15778030@199.0.216.204> <32a2df3e.351684@199.0.216.204>  <32b9491a.6640926@199.0.216.204>  <32ae194c.59938773@199.0.216.204>
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In article <32ae194c.59938773@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) wrote:

> >In article <32b9491a.6640926@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
> >wrote:
> >
> >> >tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
> >> >
> >> ># Even though the 1944 photograph shows Treblinka to be nothing
> >> ># more than a clearing, agriculture, some trees and three or four
> >> ># buildings, 
> >> >
> >> >Could this have anything to do with the fact that the camp was
> >> >partially destroyed in the sonderkommando rebellion, and then 
> >> >dismantled (in 1943)?
> >> 
> >>         No. There was no rebellion. 
> >
> >And the Moran's(tm) sources for this amazingly stupid statement is? 
> >
> >Interesting, is it not, that Arad has several chapters of his book,
> >_Belzac, Sobibor, and Treblinka: the operation Reinhard death camps_,
> >dedicated to the Treblinka uprising which too place on August 2, 1943? 
> 
>         You say there is something written in a book? 

Yes. Is the Moran(tm) deaf? 

> You say "several chapters"? 

Yes. Is the Moran(tm) blind? 

> Of course this would be 'testimony' - right? 

For the most part, no, it is not. 

> Would anyone be able to prove any of it? 

Arad _did_ "prove" (i.e document) it. Can the Moran _disprove_ it? Is the
Moran(tm) stupid? (A rhetorical question, btw.) 

> Is there any documentation other than  what someone said?

Why doesn't the Moran(tm) _read_ Arad's book _before_ he dismisses it?
Could it be that the Moran's(tm) bigotry and dogmatism prevents him from
doing so? 

> >> There were no buildings. 
> >
> >Interesting, is it not, that Arad includes several pictures, from the Kurt
> >Franz Album, of buidings and structures at Treblinka? Or does tghe
> >Moran(tm) insist that the "zoo" (cf. Arad, _Belzac, Sobibor, and
> >Treblinka_, p.93), for example,  did not exist? 
> 
> Now this is more like it. "Pictures". You say Arad's book
> includes several pictures, from the Kurt Franz Album? 

Yes, is the Moran(tm) illiterate? 

> Are any of these pictures carried by other Holocaust books, museums,
websites - like - Nizkor? 

I believe some are. 

> If not, would you know why?

Would the Moran(tm)?

> >And the Moran's(tm) sources for this amazingly stupid statement is? 
> >
> >
> >> There are no signs of there ever being any buildings, other than what is
> >shown in the 1944 photo.
> >
> >And the Moran's(tm) sources for this amazingly stupid statement is? 
> >
> >Interesting, is it not, that Arad includes several pictures, from the Kurt
> >Franz Album, of buidings and structures at Treblinka? Or does tghe
> >Moran(tm) insist that the "zoo" (cf. Arad, _Belzac, Sobibor, and
> >Treblinka_, p.93), for example,  did not exist? 
> 
> I consider it to be what aerial photos show it to have been in
> 1940 and what it came to be in 1944 with any changes taking place in
> between.

And on what basis does the Moran(tm) believe this? 

>I might think this book by Arad might be a bit difficult for
> people to get a hold of....

No, it was quite easy to "get hold of." One may order it from Amazon Books
over the web. Their URL is:

http://www.amazon.com/

...And the book is listed:

Hardcover, 437 pages 
List: $39.95 -- Amazon.com Price: $39.95 
Published by Indiana Univ Pr
Publication date: May 1987
Dimensions (in inches): 9.48 x 6.36 x 1.25
ISBN: 0253342937

> ...and it might be a service of Nizkor to include
> these photos in their files. 

Indeed. Is the Moran(tm) volunteering to scan the Kurt Franz Album for Nizkor? 

> After all, they are out there as an
> "educational resource" and educational institutes should strive to be
> thorough, especially one that is specialized to a certain topic like
> Nizkor.

Indeed Nikor is. To the continued immense frustration of simpleton deniers
like the Moran(tm)....

> One might suppose it would be a benefit to their cause for
> selling the Holocaust story as true.

The Moran(tm), as usual, errs. The Holocaust is neither a "story" nor is
it "sold." The Holocaust is indisputrable historical fact. 

To all but a habdfull of loons, anti-Semites, and Nazi cultists that is....

> Or perhaps you could post them yourself. 

What a thought! 


The Moran (tm)  is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semite engaged in
blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi apologia, and Holocaust denial.
The Moran (tm) generally conducted himself with such a complete lack of
intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in
taking the time to read and respond.  For detailed and documented evidence
of this, please refer to:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom

But what else should one expect from a lying anti-Semite who holds wacko
beliefs, is intellectually depraved, hasn't the slightest clue regarding
Supreme Court decisions, or what constitutes a dud at the  box-office? For
evidence of this please see:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/1996/what-moran-believes.9607
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies/hilberg-out-of-context
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-menorah-faq
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-schindler-faq


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec 11 15:02:11 PST 1996
Article: 85105 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.socialism.trotsky,alt.fan.noam-chomsky,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: In Support of Werner Cohn
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 08:44:25 -0700
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In article <58jrll$apg_001@res-hall.nwu.edu>, nkomo@nwu.edu (Josh Klugman)
wrote:

> In article 
> ,
>    Scott  Solomon  wrote:
> 
> >What is the relationship between Chomsky and 'La Vielle Taupe'?  Did
> >Chomsky write an introduction to Faurisson's book?  
> 
> The story is that Chomsky was approached to sign a petition defending 
> Faurisson's right to free speech, as the French government was making
moves to 
> censor him.  He was also asked to write a little thing about anybody's, 
> including a Holocaust revisionist's, right to free speech.  This was printed 
> as the introduction to Faurisson's book w/o Chomsky's permission; I
believe in 
> fact Chomsky tried desperately to get it removed to no avail.
> 
> --Josh Klugman

Mr. Klugman, it appears that Pierre Vidal-Naquet, may have a different
opinion on the matter of Chomsky's and Faurisson's "relationship:" 



[...]

Let us now pose the other side of the question. What does Noam Chomsky
know of the "criticisms" that have been addressed to Faurisson, and
specifically of the study that he refers to, which I published in
_Espirit_ and which attempts to analyze "historically" the "method" of
Faurisson and of several others? The answer is simple. "Certain
individuals have taken  Faurisson's defense for reasons of principle. A
petition with several hundred signatories, led by Noam Chomsky, protested
against the treatment Faurisson has recieved by presenting hin
'conclusions' as though they were in fact discoveries (Ve'rite', p.163).
That petition seems to me to be scandalous."[8]

The content of those lines leaves no doubt about Chomsky's motives. It is
not a question of the gas chambers; it is very little a question of
Faurisson, and only secondarily of freedom of speech. It is above all a
question of Noam Chomsky. It is as though by anticipation, Jaques Pre'vert
were speaking of him, and not of Andre' Breton, when he wrote in 1930: "He
was, then, quite thin-skinned. For a press clipping, he would not leave
his room for eight days."[9] Like many intellectuals, Chomsky is scarcely
sensitive to the wounds he inflicts, but extremely attentive to whatever
scratches he is forced to put up with.

But what is his argument? He signed, we are told, an innocent petition "in
defense of Robert Faurisson's freedom of speech and expression. The
petition said absolutely nothing about the character, quality, or validity
of his research, but limited itself quite explicitly to defending
elementary rights which are "teken for granted in democratic societies." 

[...] 

Is the petition an innocent decleration in favor of a persecuted man that
everyone, and first of all myself, could (or should) have signed? 

Let us read:

   Dr. Faurisson has served as a respected professor of twentieth-century 
   French literature and document criticism for over four years at the 
   University of Lyon 2 in France. SInce 1974 he has been conducting 
   extensive independant historical research into the "Holocaust" question. 
   Since he began making his findings public, Professor Faurissin has been 
   subject to a viscious campaign of harassment, intimidation, slander, 
   and physical violence in a crude attempt to silence him. Fearful 
   officials have even tried to stop him from further research by denying 
   him access to public libraries and archives.

Let us pass over what is excessive or even openly false in the petition.
Faurisson has been neither forbidden from neither archives nor public
libraries.[10] Does the petition in fact present Robert Faurisson as a
serious historian conducting genuine historical research? To ask that
question is to supply an answer.[11] The most droll aspect of it all is
that one finds the following adage, which has become something of a motto,
preceding works published by La Vielle Taupe: "What is terrible when one
sets out after the truth is that one finds it." For my part, I maintain-
and prove -that with the eception of the quite limited case of the _Diary
of Anne Frank_,[12] Faurisson does not set out after the truth but after
falsehoods. Is that a "detail" which does not interest Chomsky? And if one
is to understand that poorly informed, he singed on trust a genuinely
"scandalous" text, how are we to accept his willingness to underwrite
today the efforts of a falsifier? 

[...] 

"I do not want to discuss individuals," Chomsky writes, and immediately
thereafter, in accordance with the same double discourse with which we are
beginning to be familiar, he attacks an imaginary "person" who "does
indeed find the petition 'scandalous' [which was indeed the word I used],
not on the basis of misreading, but because of what it actually says"
(p.xi). An elegant way of not saying- and at the same time, saying -that I
assualt the freedom of my enemies. For Chomsky goes on to say: "We are
obliged to conclude from this that the individual in question believes
that the petition was scandalous because Faurisson _should_ in fact be
deproved of the normal right to self-expression,m that he should be
harassed and even subjected to acts of physical violence, etc." It happens
that what I wrote was precisely the opposite, and that on the very page on
which Chomsky did such a poor job of deciphering the five lines that so
disturbed him. Was it really impossible to read that page through? The
conditions under which Faurisson was brought to request leave of Lyon and
enter the National Center of Broadcasted Instruction were certainly
regrettable, and I have said as much, but his freedom of expression,
subject to extent of law, has not been threatened at all. He was able to
be published on two occasions in _Le MOnde_. Thion's book, in which his
theses are vented, was not the subject of any lawsuit, and if Faurisson is
the target of a civil suit, brought by various antiracist associations,
which do not all have freedom as their primary goal,[15] such lawsuits do
not prevent him from writing or being published. Is not the book
preferenced by CHomsky- with the exception of instances of libel towards
specific individuals that it may contain -proof? Would he like a law
passed by the republic requiring that Faurisson's works be read in public
schools? Is he asking for all history books to be rewritten in accord with
his discoveries- I mean, conclusions (_Findings))? Is he requesting at the
very least that they be advertised and sold at the entrance to synagogues?
Is every French intelectual to assume in turn the roles of his exegete,
like Serge THion, his psychiatrist, like Pierre Guillaume, or his bufoon? 

The simple truth, Noam Chomsky, is that you were unable to abide by the
ethical maxim you had imposed. You had the right to say: my worst enemy
has the right to be free, on condition that he not ask for my death or
that of my brothers. You did not have the right to say: my worst enemy is
a comrade, or a "relatively apolitical sort of liberal." You did not have
the right to take a falsifier of history and to recast him in the colors
of truth.

There was once, not so long ago, a man who uttered this simple and
powerful principle: "It is the responsibility of intellectuals to speak
the truth and to expose lies." But perhaps you know him?" [16]

[...] 

...[In] a letter of December 6 addressed to Jean-Pierre Faye, Chomsky
somehow disavowed not his text but the use that had been made of it
without his agreement as a preface to Robert Faurisson's book. The book
was nonetheless printed with the preface in question, which was dated
October 11, 1980. On that same Dcember 6, he wrote to Serge Thion
concerning the same text: "If publication is not under way, I strong;y
suggest that you not put it in a book by Faurisson," which did not prevent
him from maintaining his fundemental position. [17]

Let us restate the point with due calm: the principle he invokes is not at
stake. If Chomsky had restricted himself to defending Faurisson's right to
free speech, from my point of view there would not be a Chomsky problem.
But that is not the issue. Nor is the issue for me one of responding to
the innumerable proclamations, articles, and letters through which
Chomsky, like some worn-out computer reprinting the same speech, has
spewed forth his outrage at those who have been so bold as to criticize
him, and specifically at the auther of these pages. [18]

It will suffice for me to observe: 1) that he went considerably further in
his support for Faurisson, exchanging friendly letters with him,[19]
accepting even to be prefaced by a leader of the revisionist league Pierre
Guillaume [20] (while claiming- mendaciously -that he had not written a
preface for Faurisson), [21], characterizing Guillaume as "libertarian and
antifascist on principle" [22] (which must have provoked some hilarity
>from  the interested party, since he regards antifascism as fundementally
mendacious); 2) that he has not remained faithful to his own libertarian
principles since he- whom the slightest legal action against Faurisson
throws into a fit -went do far as to threaten a publisher with a lawsuit
over a biographical note concerning him in which several sentances had the
misfortune of displeasing him. And in fact, he succeeded in having the
biographical note in question assinged to a more loyal editor [23]. 

To be sure, it is not the case that Chomsky's theses in any way
approximate those of the neo-Nazis.[24] But why does he find so much
energy and even tenderness in defending those who have become the
publishers and defenders of the neo-Nazis, [25] and so much rage against
those who allow themselves to fight them? [26]. That is the simple
question I shal raise. When logic has no other end than self-defense, it
goes mad.



Source: Vidal-Naquet, _Assassins of Memory_, pp.67-73.

"8. _Espirit_, p.52. I reprinted these lines as they were published. For
reasons of precision I rephrased them in the definitive version of my
text, _supra_, p.58." (Ibid. p.162.) 

"9. Maurice Nadeau, _Histoire du surre'alisme_, II, _Documents
surre'alistes_ (Paris: Seuil, 1948), p.154." (Ibid.) 

"10. Concerning the refusal of the personnel of the Centre de
Documentation Juvive Contemporaine (a private foundation) to serve him,
cf. _Espirit_, p.52, and _supra_, p.58." (Ibid.) 

"11. These are the words, American and English colleagues have told me,
which might be said of a university thesis- and a good one!" (Ibid.) 

"12. For the sake of completeness, I will say that in his new book there
is material on gas chambers that were either imaginaru or did not function
in the western camps, Buchenwald and Dachau. But it is all so poorly
analyzed from a historical point of view that even such documentation is
hard to utilize." (Ibid.)

"15. When a regional director of LICRA protests against a performance of
Shakespeare's _The Merchant of Venice_ (cf. _Le Monde_, July 5, 1980), he
is working for Faurisson, who is delighted to mention such venomous
foolishness." (Ibid.) 

"16. Cf. Stephen Lukes, 'Chomsky's Betrayel of Truths,' _Times_ (London),
Higher Education Supplement, November 7, 1980, p.31." (Ibid.) 

"17. See P. Guillaume, _Droit et Histoire_ (Paris: La Vieille Taupe,
1986), pp.158-159." (Ibid.) 

"18. I possess a huge file of material; suffice it for me to refer to a
small book published, alas, by Editions Spartacus (Paris, 1984), N.
Chomsky, _Re'esponses ine'dites a mes de'tracteurs parisiens_." (Ibid.) 

"19. P. Guillaume, _Droit et Histoire_, p.54." (Ibid.) 

"20. P. Guillaume signed a preface to Chomsky's book, _Re'esponses
ine'dites_, with his initials." (Ibid.) 

"21. My colleague and friend Professor Arno Mayer of Princeton spoke with
Chomsky about his preface a few weeks before its publication." (Ibid.
p.163.) 

"22. See his letter in the _Village Voice_ of March 18, 1986, p.7,
responding to an article by Paul Berman in the same newspaper (February
18, 1986)." (Ibid.) 

"23. I refer to the American edition of the _Biographical Companion to
Contemporary Thought_, edited by A. Bullock (London: Fontana-Collins,
1983); details of this matter can be found in an article by G. Sampson
(author of the note), 'Censoring 20th-Century Culture: The Case of Noam
Chomsky,' _The New Criterion_, October 1984, pp.7-16." (Ibid.) 

"24. W.D. Rubenstein's article, 'Chomsky and the Neo-Nazis,' published in
the Australian periodical _Quadrant_, October 1981, pp.8-14, seems to miss
the mark; it was followed by a published debate, in which Chomsky (setting
forth his usual line) participated, as well as R. Manne (on the subject of
Cambodia) (_Quandrant_, April 1982, pp. 6-22). In P. Guillaume's _Droit et
Histoire_, pp.152-172, one finds fragments of an unbelievable attack by
one Chantal Beachamp, characterized as a ' professor and _agre'ge'e_ in
history,' against Chomsky, who is accused of being a closet
exterminationist, and his accomplice P. Guillaume. One would like to know
the elements of this dlectable affair." (Ibid.) 

"25. N. Chomsky, for example, appears not to had any problem with La
Vieille Taupe publishing the (genuinely Nazi) volume of W. Sta"glich, _Le
Mythe d'Auschwitz_ (1986). To someone who asked him what he thought of it,
he replied that he did not discuss things with fascists (testimony of Paul
Berman, 1986). The most intelligent article written to defend Chomsky- C.
Hitchen's 'The Chorus and Cassandra: What Everyone Knows About Noam
Chomsky,' _Grand Street_, Autumn 1985, pp.106-131 -avoids confronting this
type of question." (Ibid.) 

"26. See his polemic against Nadine Fresco, for example, in _Dissent_,
Spring 1982, pp.218-220." (Ibid.) 


Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Dec 12 05:22:49 PST 1996
Article: 85182 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: There is no truth
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 14:38:22 -0700
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In article <32ADE9FB.34D8@trib.infi.net>, arcaro@trib.infi.net wrote:

> the twelve tribes of Isreal converted to christianity as God bade. What
> we call jews now are not the original chosen people, but impostors. The
> true chosen people would not reject the son their God sent them.
> (I am not particularly religious, just throwing this in for discussion)

Really? How 'bout "throwing" it where it belongs then? (Which certanly
_isn't_ alt.revisionism.) 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Dec 12 05:22:51 PST 1996
Article: 85183 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Clearing the air about Posen
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 01:21:09 -0700
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In article <58lc8g$1j5i$15@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord
McFee) wrote:

> In message <32ab8698.18235154@news.gte.net> - minesweeper@navy.water
> (Endurance)Mon, 09 Dec 1996 03:50:32 GMT writes:
> :>
> :>On Sun, 8 Dec 1996 16:42:37 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
> :>wrote:
> :>
> :>>As one great mathematician once said about an even
> :>>greater mathematician, "I know the lion by its paw".
> :>>In this case, we know the pig by its squeal.
> :>
> :>      Yes, little one, you are a lying holobugger.  Turned bottom's up to
> :>kmcvay lately?  
> 
> Oh my heavens, the Giwer is good at the insults, isn't he?  I hope to see the
> day that he makes a statement like that to Dr. Keren's face.  On second
> thought, I don't.  Dr. Keren does not deserve to be in the company of such a
> foul creature.

Indeed. It would be most unkind to inflict the Giwer-swine on others in
such a manner. The stench would probably be overpowering. Just looking at
the Giwer-swine's maggot-like mug shot on his home page was almost made my
stomach churn.... Fortunately, I was laughing too hard to get sick.  

The  gonadotoxic Giwer-swine is, as far as I can determine, a craven
anti-Semitic and racist troller whose only interest is in slandering Jews
and causing fights.  He has profusely and consistantly lied about what has
been said in exchanges (while accusing others of lying), refused to
document claims, pretended not to see posts which contain documented
refutation of his claims (even when they have been emailed to him),
engaged in actual libel, blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi
apologia, crude sexism, and has generally conducted himself with such a
complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be
no point in taking the time to read and respond to him.  For detailed and
documented evidence of this, please refer to


http://www.nizkor.org/encouragements/
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/email/
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/net-abuse/
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/forgeries.1096
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/antisemite 
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/simpering-bitch
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/fatbroad
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/c-word
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/plagarized-01.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lie-freely-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/thousand-dollar


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Dec 12 10:45:25 PST 1996
Article: 85271 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!pumpkin.pangea.ca!eru.mt.luth.se!news-stkh.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi147.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 961209: We are now in the trenches
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 11:46:14 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 24
Message-ID: 
References: <58ik4s$i8k@Networking.Stanford.EDU> <19961211073200.CAA15892@ladder01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi147.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <19961211073200.CAA15892@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
dvdthomas@aol.com wrote:

> >You got us, Ingrid. We're listening. We just aren't buying it anymore.
> >
> >-rich
> 
> Rich, if insightful analysis were money, you couldn't buy half a glass of
> water.  If, however, marginally informed grandstanding and cute had a
> commercial value of, say, ten cents the pound, you'd own the world, or
> could at least afford a Junior Jedi sword.  In my exalted opinion. :-|

Mr. Thomas, may I suggest you add more bran to your diet? I hear such
grumpiness as you exhibit is a sure sign of constipation....

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Dec 13 05:45:00 PST 1996
Article: 85326 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Descriptors
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 05:10:32 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 55
Message-ID: 
References: <32a9cca8.3402603@news.gte.net> <32b45d05.16774550@nntp.netcruiser> <32ac9aab.11574894@news.gte.net>  <32B0076A.17B@rio.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi146.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32B0076A.17B@rio.com>, Chuck Ferree  wrote:

> Daniel Keren wrote:
>
> > But maybe you should lower your expectations? Aim for something
> > realistic? Everything beats being a leech, right?
> 
> Hold on here...you saying that Giwer has expectations? No way! Life 
> screwed him and he knows it. Expectations went out the window along 
> with his criminal records. He'd be sued for every nickle except he 
> doesn't have a nickle. Giwer is not to be pitied, scorned maybe, but 
> no pity. We all buy our ticket and take our ride. Giwer bought a 
> losing ticket, no ride.

Mr. Ferree, I'm sure even a drunken excuse for a swine like would have
_some_ expectations. 

Like to expect when he can guzzle his the next bottle of Ripple....

The  gonadotoxic Giwer-swine is, as far as I can determine, a craven
anti-Semitic and racist troller whose only interest is in slandering Jews
and causing fights.  He has profusely and consistantly lied about what has
been said in exchanges (while accusing others of lying), refused to
document claims, pretended not to see posts which contain documented
refutation of his claims (even when they have been emailed to him),
engaged in actual libel, blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi
apologia, crude sexism, and has generally conducted himself with such a
complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be
no point in taking the time to read and respond to him.  For detailed and
documented evidence of this, please refer to


http://www.nizkor.org/encouragements/
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/email/
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/net-abuse/
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/forgeries.1096
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/antisemite 
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/simpering-bitch
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/fatbroad
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/c-word
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/plagarized-01.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lie-freely-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/thousand-dollar


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Dec 13 05:45:02 PST 1996
Article: 85334 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Air Photo Evidence" - Treblinka
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 01:08:12 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 28
Message-ID: 
References: <329ba952.15778030@199.0.216.204> <32b9491a.6640926@199.0.216.204>  <32ae194c.59938773@199.0.216.204> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi143.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article , dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

> It's impossible to carry on like this.
> 
> While the "leading Holocaust revisionist" Matt Giwer, says that
> there were buildings in Treblinka, his esteemed colleague, Tom
> Moran, said there were no buildings there whatsoever.
> 
> Last time there was a disagreement in the "revisionist movement",
> it resulted in a fistfight, in which "leading revisionists" like
> Willis Carto, Mark Weber, Greg Raven etc. beat the crap out of
> each other in the IHR office in CA.
> 
> God forbid - will we witness such a battle between Moran and
> Giwer? 

That'd be an even match:  a witless fool against a drunken pig. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Dec 13 09:04:53 PST 1996
Article: 85388 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust Almanac: A "Page of Glory"
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 14:10:29 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 23
Message-ID: 
References: <58m19t$abb@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <58n4k9$k2j$3@gryphon.phoenix.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi146.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <58n4k9$k2j$3@gryphon.phoenix.net>,
"tavish@phoenix.net"@phoenix.net wrote:

> Do your immense files cover the atrocities committed by Jews against
> gentiles for thousands of years o arrogant, self righteous person?


Er, Doc Slavish, _why_ should Nizkor, which is an archive of Holocaust
(and related) information and resources, be concerned about your
anti-Semitic fantasies regarding "atrocities committed by Jews against
gentiles?" 

[The rest of Doc Slavish's anti-Semitic spew snipped]

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Dec 13 09:04:54 PST 1996
Article: 85389 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Clearing the air about Posen
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 14:13:40 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 58
Message-ID: 
References: <32a9c871.2323821@news.gte.net> <58d819$o1t@news.enter.net><32a9c871.2323821@news.gte.net> <58d819$o1t@news.enter.net> <32ab84c5.17768841@news.gte.net> <58lc7o$1j5i$14@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net><32a9c871.2323821@news.gte.net> <58d819$o1t@news.enter.net><32a9c871.2323821@news.gte.net> <58d819$o1t@news.enter.net> <32ab84c5.17768841@news.gte.net> <58lc7o$1j5i$14@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <32aeedc6.31158183@news.gte.net> <58qail$f4m$5@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi146.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <58qail$f4m$5@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord
McFee) wrote:

> In message <32aeedc6.31158183@news.gte.net> - minesweeper@navy.water
> (Force)Wed, 11 Dec 1996 19:43:42 GMT writes:

[snip]

> :>      I do not appeal to authorities.  
> 
> Admitted.  The only authority Giwer appeals to is Jack Daniels.  But we knew
> that.
> 
> :>      McFly, perpetually a few bodies short of a holocaust. 
> 
> Giwer, whose liver goes  in the night.

ROTFLMAO!!!

> And who loses *again*.

The Giwer-swine is in a rut (gutter?) it seems.... 

The  gonadotoxic Giwer-swine is, as far as I can determine, a craven
anti-Semitic and racist troller whose only interest is in slandering Jews
and causing fights.  He has profusely and consistantly lied about what has
been said in exchanges (while accusing others of lying), refused to
document claims, pretended not to see posts which contain documented
refutation of his claims (even when they have been emailed to him),
engaged in actual libel, blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi
apologia, crude sexism, and has generally conducted himself with such a
complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be
no point in taking the time to read and respond to him.  For detailed and
documented evidence of this, please refer to


http://www.nizkor.org/encouragements/
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/email/
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/net-abuse/
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/forgeries.1096
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/antisemite 
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/simpering-bitch
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/fatbroad
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/c-word
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/plagarized-01.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lie-freely-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/thousand-dollar

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Dec 13 09:04:55 PST 1996
Article: 85392 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news.dra.com!news.exodus.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Clearing the air about Posen
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 14:18:37 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 47
Message-ID: 
References: <32ab5a08.279786841@news.micron.net> <58h9uc$hdk@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <32ac457d.34759780@news.gte.net> <32aeec6c.30812485@news.gte.net> <58p1ii$itu@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <32b6d462.24200816@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi146.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32b6d462.24200816@news.srv.ualberta.ca>,
John.Morris@UAlberta.CA (John Morris) wrote:

> ...If I were better qualified to render such an opinion, I would say 
> further that he is suffering from some sort of infantile psychological 
> disorder. But I will leave such opinions to those who know better.

More like "better living through chemistry," if you get m6y drift....

Alcohol abuse, I'm told, can cause severe mental as well as physical disorders.

The  gonadotoxic Giwer-swine is, as far as I can determine, a craven
anti-Semitic and racist troller whose only interest is in slandering Jews
and causing fights.  He has profusely and consistantly lied about what has
been said in exchanges (while accusing others of lying), refused to
document claims, pretended not to see posts which contain documented
refutation of his claims (even when they have been emailed to him),
engaged in actual libel, blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi
apologia, crude sexism, and has generally conducted himself with such a
complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be
no point in taking the time to read and respond to him.  For detailed and
documented evidence of this, please refer to


http://www.nizkor.org/encouragements/
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/email/
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/net-abuse/
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/forgeries.1096
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/antisemite 
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/simpering-bitch
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/fatbroad
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/c-word
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/plagarized-01.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lie-freely-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/thousand-dollar


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Dec 13 09:04:56 PST 1996
Article: 85404 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nol.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!newspump.sol.net!mindspring!uunet!in3.uu.net!206.40.72.101!news.exodus.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Coming Soon to a Theatre Near You
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 14:21:04 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 28
Message-ID: 
References: <58oi1v$f55@juliana.sprynet.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi146.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article , karlpov@access2.digex.net (Charles
R.L. Power) wrote:

> rblackmore@juno.com writes:
> 
> >Irma Grese.
> 
> Your new secret identity, Jane/Joe?

Nah, probably Mr. Belling's new Nazi Hero Of The Month (tm). 


For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Dec 14 07:55:02 PST 1996
Article: 85535 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nol.net!df.lth.se!news.lth.se!solace!news.stealth.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Crematorium logistics
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 07:01:44 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 96
Message-ID: 
References: <32b2412f.4614359@199.0.216.204> <32bdcc3d.7837632@199.0.216.204> <32b15cfd.191303@199.0.216.204>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi146.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32b15cfd.191303@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

[snip[

> I would say most real revisionist representatives would recognize
> these buildings as having a function for a morgue in one of the
> cellars...

Hardly suprising, considering that on the Bauleitung construction plans of
Krema II, the cellars were both designated _Leichenkeller_ (corpse cellar
-i.e. morgue). This, of course, would by no means preclude the fact that
during the construction of Kremas II and III that  L.Keller 1 was ad hoc
converted into a homicidal gas chamber (Vergasungskeller) and L.Keller 2
into an undressing room (Auskleidekeller) for the victims. 

For those wishing to see a _real_ example of authentic historical
revisionism, I would suggest reading Jean-Claude Pressac's book,
_Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas chambers_. In it it Pressac
has provided a detailed analysis of the evolution of Kremas II and III
>from  being "normal" concentration camp-style crematoria to homicidal
installations used for mass murder.

> ...and some limited cremation capablility...

Given that Ja"hrling's memo, for example, on the estimated cremation
capacity of Kremas II and III was 1,440 corspes each per 24-hour period,
it is a disingenuous absurdity for the Moran(tm) to claim that these two
installations had "limited cremation capablility." 


> ... probably taking place in the ell.

What part of the Krema is the "ell?" The furnace hall (Verbrennungsraum
-i.e. incineration room), where the five Topf triple-muffle incineration
furnaces were, is plainly marked on the Bauleitung construction drawings.
They were not located in any "ell." To claim otherwise is merely yet
another disingenuous absurdity on the Moran's(tm) part.....

[snip]

> I also have the ballpark notion that this building might have
> been used for slain members of the German military on a limited basis,
> such as those slain during skirmishes in the immediate area with
> Polish nationals.... 

The Moran(tm) has a "ballpark notion?" All those familiar with the
Moran's(tm) "notions" are quite aware of the insanity (and inanity) of
these "notions!" More to the point, does the Moran(tm) have factual
_evidence_ for his "ballpark notion?" And if so, does the Moran(tm)
suggest that incinerating "slain members of the German military on a
limited basis" in installations with such enourmous incineration capacity
would _preclude_ the incinerations of the corpses of the victims murdered
by the Nazis  at Birkenau?   

> ...There was also the ongoing problem with Typhus, which we can't exclude 
> German victims from the prisoners.   

Is this yet _another_ Moranic(tm) "ballpark notion?" Does the Moran(tm)
have _any_ factual _evidence_ for _this_ "ballpark notion?" Is the
Moran(tm) suggesting that the SS at Auschwitz lived and worked with typhus
stricken- and thus lice infested -prisoners? 

The the Moranic(tm) absurdities just keep piling up....


The Moran (tm)  is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semite engaged in
blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi apologia, and Holocaust denial.
The Moran (tm) generally conducted himself with such a complete lack of
intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in
taking the time to read and respond.  For detailed and documented evidence
of this, please refer to:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom

But what else should one expect from a lying anti-Semite who holds wacko
beliefs, is intellectually depraved, hasn't the slightest clue regarding
Supreme Court decisions, or what constitutes a dud at the  box-office? For
evidence of this please see:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/1996/what-moran-believes.9607
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies/hilberg-out-of-context
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-menorah-faq
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-schindler-faq



Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Dec 14 07:55:02 PST 1996
Article: 85550 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Paranoiac Rage (was: Re: Christ Killers! (was Re: Laughter is the Best Medicine)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 11:53:56 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
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References: <199612100622.WAA28462@mailmasher.com> <58j86v$jrb@Networking.Stanford.EDU> <58q2qs$l9b$1@gryphon.phoenix.net>  <58rrgk$jo0$6@gryphon.phoenix.net>
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In article <58rrgk$jo0$6@gryphon.phoenix.net>,
"tavish@phoenix.net"@phoenix.net wrote:

> Mark Van Alstine wrote:
> > 
> > In article <58q2qs$l9b$1@gryphon.phoenix.net>,
> > "tavish@phoenix.net"@phoenix.net wrote:
> > 
> > [snip]
> > 
> > > ...I appreciate it also when my detractors call me a nazi.
> > 
> > Why is that?
> > 
> > > I'd much rather be called a nazi myself than be called a Jew.
> > 
> > Why is that?
> > 
> > > This tain't parody.
> > 
> > No, it tain't. (Especially considering your silly drivel below.) It _is_,
> > howver, rather bizzare. People typically don't choose identify themselves
> > with Hitler's murderous Nazi regime.
> > 
> > > While on the subject of "stupid nazis" can you tell me all of the
> > > contributions to science and culture the Jews have made as compared
> > > to the Aryan culture?
> > 
> > _What_ "Aryan culture?" Please identify this mythical "Aryan culture."
> > 
> > > What have the Yids that approaches the sensitivity of Schubert, the
style of
> > > Mozart, the robustness of Beethoven, the grandeur of Wagner etc.
> > 
> > Out of curiosity, have you even bothered to listen to the music of other
> > cultures besides those found in northern Europe? There _is_ other styles
> > of music besides "classical" (European) music....
> > 
> > And of course, music (and musical appraciation) is just _one_ aspect (and
> > arguably not the most important) of one's culture.
> > 
> > > Oh yes of course the Jews came up with the atomic theory by Einstein,
> > 
> > Er, Einstein didn't, as I recall, "come up" with "atomic theory." The
> > Greeks aside, J.J. Thompson, who experimentally proved the existance of
> > the electron, first proposed a ("plum pudding") model of the atom in 1897.
> > Then Ernst Rutherford, as a result of his alpha particle scanning
> > experiments (circa 1911), advanced the concept of the atomic nucleus.
> > Rutherford's concept of the atomic nucleus, combined with Niels Bohr's
> > theory of orbiting electrons, gave us the Rutherford-Bohr model of the
> > atom.
> > 
> > Einstein, on the other hand, _did_ give the world (among other things) the
> > special and general theories of relativity and, of course, the famous "E =
> > mc^2" equation....
> > 
> > > developed with billions of dollars of gentile capital...
> > 
> > Er, no. There were no "billions of dollars" of _any_ capital invested in
> > the works of Thompson, Rutherford, Bohr, et. al. in developing "atomic
> > theory." Additionally, considering that Einstein supported himself as a
> > Swiss patent clerk (circa 1905) while developing his special theory of
> > relativity, it is rather absurd of you to suggest that Einstein garnered
> > "billions of dollars of gentile capital" for his contributions to modern
> > physics.
> > 
> > > had its secrets absconded with by atomic spies Julius and Ethel Rosenberg
> > > (both Jews) and given to Russia.
> > 
> > Atomic spies? LOL! What did the Rosenberg's spy _on_? The neutron or
> > proton? Or perhaps the electron? When one considers the affects of the
> > Uncertainty Priciple, the Rosenberg's probably couldn't "spy" all that
> > much- they obviously didn't find any quarks....  };->
> > 
> > > ...It looks to me that the gentiles provided the materials and the
> > > lion's share of the work with the Jewish goal of giving it to their
> > > communist brethren the whole time.
> > 
> > Really? Did you open your eyes when you "saw" this "revalation?"
> > 
> > > ...On the subject of Jewish treachery
> > 
> > As opposed to American treachery? It would be interesting, of all the
> > spies caught passing U.S. secrets, to count how many were "Aryan" as
> > opposed to other (real) ethnic groups. I would hardly be suprised to find
> > out that the vast majority of spies caught were "Aryan."
> > 
> > > the Jew spy Jonathan Pollard, should be executed for turning over
> > > American secrets to Israelis....
> > 
> > Actually, your obvious hatred of Jews aside, Pollard should be treated as
> > the laws against espionage prescribe. No more, no less.
> > 
> > > who in turn gave them to their Bolshevik cousins back in the ol USSR.
> > 
> > And your (factual) evidence that Israel passed U.S. secrets, stolen by
> > Pollard, to the U.S.S.R. is? Or were you just midlessly Jew/Israel-bashing
> > like a bigoted anti-Semite?
> > 
> > > finis
> > 
> > More like "stultissimus"
> > 
> 
> Source of info on Jew traitor Pollard- They Dared to Speak Out by former
> Rep. Findlay of Illinois. 

So? Are you saying that federal law should _not_ be applied to Pollard? On
what basis do you support such actions? Your obvious hatred of Jews? 

> You can find out more about Pollard 

Now _why_ would I want to know more about Pollard? He has nothing to do
with the Holocaust and is nothing more than your Jewish whipping boy so
yiou can vent your frustarations from being such a loser in life. 

> if you would turn off your MTV and do research. 

MTV? Sorry, I don't watch MTV. I don't watch TV all that much either.... 

As for research, I suggest you be carefull of throwing stones in glass
houses. I have yet to see a shred of hisrtorical research relating to the
Holocausty in anything you have posted....

> After that do more research and you will find out to that you have been 
> hoodwinked. 

I see. Has anybody ever suggested that you seek professional help for your
paranoia and xenophobic anxieties? 

> Many that you have condemned were once rowing in the same boat with you. 

Uh huh. More like you are up the creek without a paddle, Doc Slavish. Now
run along and go improve yourself culturally- go finish your Macarena
lessons.... 


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Dec 14 07:55:03 PST 1996
Article: 85560 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: kurt stele and his nuremberg "cite"
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 10:11:25 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
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References: <32ab5aaf.279953243@news.micron.net> <58fpj8$7sk@news.enter.net> <32ad365c.401745341@news.micron.net>  <58rr45$jo0$5@gryphon.phoenix.net>
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In article <58rr45$jo0$5@gryphon.phoenix.net>,
"tavish@phoenix.net"@phoenix.net wrote:


> Mark you can't refute Mr. Stele so you resort to name calling and making
> allegations as to his IQ. 

Doc Slavish, I would beg to differ. Not only have refuted the Nazi Mr.
Smith (and he _is_ a real honest-to-goodness neo-Nazi, btw), but I have
done many times- including on this peurile distortion of Justice Jackson's
cross-examination of Speer. 

> I've had correspondence with said Mr. Stele
> and I can tell you that is IQ is genius. 

Er, right. Like I said: Doc Slavish. 

> Just because you disagree with  someone's position doesn't make the other 
> pathological or a numb dumb.

Doc Slavish,  what makes Mr. Smith a pathological liar and as intelligent
as a raod apple is not the fact that he is a rabid anti-Semite and a Nazi
apologist. 
It is, rather, that Mr. Smith  pathologically lies and offer "arguments"
so stupid to support his lies that one is simply is forced to assume that
he is brain-damaged. 

> Is this condition the one that Freud postulated as transference- i.e.
> the sick attributing his phobias to others. 

Indeed. Perhaps that would explain his (and your) anti-Semitism? My
loathing of Mr. Smith is simply do to the fact that he is a loathsome
person in his own right. 

> In other words you may be possibly insecure about the validity of your 
> position. 

Doc Slavish, I can happily say that whatever insecurities I may posses,
the none concern the veracity of the Holocaust nor my scorn or
anti-Semites and Nazi apologists. 

> Think about it.

"Physician" heal thyself!

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Dec 14 07:55:04 PST 1996
Article: 85572 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dresden
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 10:50:31 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 65
Message-ID: 
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In article <32b1ef6f.711314581@news.micron.net>, kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

> Prove that Giwer has been adjudicated a "criminal."    

criminal adj. 1 having the nature of crime; being a crime 2 a) involving
or relating to crime b) dealing with law cases involving crime 3 guilty of
crime 4 [Colloq.) regrettable or deplorable -n. a person guilty of , or
legally convicted of, a crime. 

guilty adj. 1 having guilt; deserving blame or punishment; culpable 2
having one's guilt proved; legally judged an offender 3 showing or
conscious of guilt [a guilty look] 4 of or involving guilt or sense of
guilt [a guilty conscience]

Cf. _Webster's New World Dictionary_ [Third College Edition].

As we can see, it is not required that one be "legally convicted" of a
crime to be deemed a criminal. Being deserving of blame or punishment for
a crime is sufficient to meet the definition. (Hence the phrase "convicted
criminal" to delineate one who has been "adjudicated a 'criminal'" from
one who is merely guilty of a crime.)

The Giwer-swine is certainly guilty, as in deserving blame or punishment,
of the crimes he has committed. 

> Innocent until proven guilty, Yalie-poo.  

Mr. Edeiken has gone to some length to demonstrate to all but those with
IQ's of fence posts that the Giwer-swine is indeed a criminal. 

> I thought you were a lawyer?  

And _I_ thought that Mr. Smith had at least half-a brain. Obviously, that
was too generous an asumption on my part. 

> Maybe you lied about that one too.

Rather, Mr. Smith, who is a proven liar (among other things), is simply
being mendacious as usual. Thus, given the innumerable whoppers that can
be laid at feet of the rabidly anti-Semitic Nazi Mr. Smith, one can hardly
give his rants any credence. 

One can only wonder if Mr. Smith's keepers at the National Alliance
realize he has escaped his padded cell and is skulking about the digital
street corners haranguing passers-by with his insane diatribes? 

For those interested in proof of National Alliance member Brian Smith's
(aka "Kurt Stele") rabid anti-Semitism, pathological Nazi apologia, and
that he possses an IQ of a fence post (not to mention a sewer mouth)
please visit:

http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/stele.kurt
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/smith.brian.r


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Dec 14 07:55:05 PST 1996
Article: 85579 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Paranoiac Rage (was: Re: Christ Killers! (was Re: Laughter is the Best Medicine)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 05:04:31 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
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In article <58q2qs$l9b$1@gryphon.phoenix.net>,
"tavish@phoenix.net"@phoenix.net wrote:

[snip]

> ...I appreciate it also when my detractors call me a nazi. 

Why is that? 


> I'd much rather be called a nazi myself than be called a Jew. 

Why is that? 

> This tain't parody. 

No, it tain't. (Especially considering your silly drivel below.) It _is_,
howver, rather bizzare. People typically don't choose identify themselves
with Hitler's murderous Nazi regime. 

> While on the subject of "stupid nazis" can you tell me all of the 
> contributions to science and culture the Jews have made as compared 
> to the Aryan culture? 

_What_ "Aryan culture?" Please identify this mythical "Aryan culture." 

> What have the Yids that approaches the sensitivity of Schubert, the style of 
> Mozart, the robustness of Beethoven, the grandeur of Wagner etc. 

Out of curiosity, have you even bothered to listen to the music of other
cultures besides those found in northern Europe? There _is_ other styles
of music besides "classical" (European) music.... 

And of course, music (and musical appraciation) is just _one_ aspect (and
arguably not the most important) of one's culture.

> Oh yes of course the Jews came up with the atomic theory by Einstein,

Er, Einstein didn't, as I recall, "come up" with "atomic theory." The
Greeks aside, J.J. Thompson, who experimentally proved the existance of
the electron, first proposed a ("plum pudding") model of the atom in 1897.
Then Ernst Rutherford, as a result of his alpha particle scanning
experiments (circa 1911), advanced the concept of the atomic nucleus.
Rutherford's concept of the atomic nucleus, combined with Niels Bohr's
theory of orbiting electrons, gave us the Rutherford-Bohr model of the
atom.

Einstein, on the other hand, _did_ give the world (among other things) the
special and general theories of relativity and, of course, the famous "E =
mc^2" equation.... 

> developed with billions of dollars of gentile capital...

Er, no. There were no "billions of dollars" of _any_ capital invested in
the works of Thompson, Rutherford, Bohr, et. al. in developing "atomic
theory." Additionally, considering that Einstein supported himself as a
Swiss patent clerk (circa 1905) while developing his special theory of
relativity, it is rather absurd of you to suggest that Einstein garnered
"billions of dollars of gentile capital" for his contributions to modern
physics. 

> had its secrets absconded with by atomic spies Julius and Ethel Rosenberg 
> (both Jews) and given to Russia. 

Atomic spies? LOL! What did the Rosenberg's spy _on_? The neutron or
proton? Or perhaps the electron? When one considers the affects of the
Uncertainty Priciple, the Rosenberg's probably couldn't "spy" all that
much- they obviously didn't find any quarks....  };-> 

> ...It looks to me that the gentiles provided the materials and the
> lion's share of the work with the Jewish goal of giving it to their
> communist brethren the whole time. 

Really? Did you open your eyes when you "saw" this "revalation?" 

> ...On the subject of Jewish treachery

As opposed to American treachery? It would be interesting, of all the
spies caught passing U.S. secrets, to count how many were "Aryan" as
opposed to other (real) ethnic groups. I would hardly be suprised to find
out that the vast majority of spies caught were "Aryan."

> the Jew spy Jonathan Pollard, should be executed for turning over
> American secrets to Israelis....

Actually, your obvious hatred of Jews aside, Pollard should be treated as
the laws against espionage prescribe. No more, no less. 

> who in turn gave them to their Bolshevik cousins back in the ol USSR. 

And your (factual) evidence that Israel passed U.S. secrets, stolen by
Pollard, to the U.S.S.R. is? Or were you just midlessly Jew/Israel-bashing
like a bigoted anti-Semite? 

> finis

More like "stultissimus" 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Dec 14 07:55:06 PST 1996
Article: 85583 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.texas.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.stealth.net!demos!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.clinton,alt.discrimination,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.immigration,alt.skinheads,alt.conspiracy,alt.religion.islam,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Jews in Israel Hate Immigrants
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 10:16:00 -0700
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In article <32bb5fa8.874186@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

> >tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
> >>      As for defending themselves. The Jews went there, the occupants
> >>didn't like it, the brethren didn't like it. Did the Arabs go to the
> >>Jews or did the Jews go to the Arabs?
> >
> >Interesting that you should bring that up: during the Gulf War, when
> >kicked out of Saudi Arabia by their loving Arab brethren, quite
> >literally tens of thousands of Arabs fled through Jordan to Judea and
> >Samaria, clearly preferring to live under the supposedly iron heel of
> >evil Jooos than with their own Arab brethren in any of the twenty-odd
> >Arab countries.
> >
> >I'd suggest that that ought to make you think, but I'm not about to
> >ask for miracles.
> 
>         A crock. Fiction. Lie.
> 
>         "Judea" and "Samaria"?

Perhaps then the Moran(tm) would care to venture an answer as to where all
those Palestinian "guest workers" (i.e. indentured servants) went when
they were kicked out of Kuwiat after it was liberated from Iraq? 

Hmmm? 


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Dec 14 07:55:06 PST 1996
Article: 85610 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The MOVIE you FOOLS!
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 13:06:19 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 133
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References:  <32ac49c5.35855589@news.gte.net>  <32ad72c9.29592052@news.gte.net>  <32b08bca.10020352@news.gte.net> <32b21425.40526098@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
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In article <32b21425.40526098@news.srv.ualberta.ca>,
John.Morris@UAlberta.CA (John Morris) wrote:

> In <32b08bca.10020352@news.gte.net>, Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net)
> posting as minesweeper@navy.water (Force) wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> >       Read up on the primary Nuremberg trial and find out about the film
> >produced by the Soviets. You will find it there.  Even the unethical
> >Dr. Gilbert mentions that Goring pointed out to him that rigour mortis
> >had not set in.  
> 
> Did Alan give you a volume and page reference for this twaddle? Or are
> you just making it up?

Well, if the Dr. Gilbert in question is G.M Gilbert, and the the Soviet
film shown on November 29, 1945, is the one mentioned in _Nuremburg Diary_
(pp.45-46); then yes, I would say that the Giwer-swine is simply making it
up. 

Gilbert's comment on Go"ring (p.49) in regard to the November 29 Soviet
atrocity film is as follows:



As for Goering, he was apparently disturbed because it had spoiled his
show. "It was  such a good afternoon too, until they showed that
film.-They were reading my telephone conversations on the Austrian affair,
and everybody was laughing with me.-And then they showed that awful film,
and it just spoiled everything." 



If the it was the Soviet atrocity film shown on February 19,1946, and
Go"ring's reaction to it (pp.161-162), the Giwer-swine is making it up:

 

Afternoon Session: The Russians presented their atrocity film, a
horrifying document of mass murder even more terrible than the one
presented by the Americans. [I stood at Goering's end of the dock and
watched the prisoners in the semidarkness during the showing of the film.

Goering is tickled at the false start, as the film starts upside down and
has to be readjusted; he covers his laugh with his hand, but looks around
to see if the audience is laughing ... The film starts again] ... It shows
the acres of corpses of Russian PW's murdered or left to starve in the
fields where they had been captured; the torture instruments, nutilated
bodies, guillotines and baskets of heads; bodies hanging from lamp-posts,
found upon recapture of towns were the Gestapo had been active; the ruins
of Lidice; women weeping over their dead -mass burial services; raped and
murdred women, children with heads bashed in; the crematoria and the gas
chambers; the piles of clothes, the bales of women's hair at Auschwitz and
Maidanek ... [Goering keeps pretending to read a book through all of this,
yawining in boredom, occaisonally making a sarcastic remark to Hess and
Ribbentrop.] 

Goering's Cell: I went down to the cell block with Major Goldensohn to get
a sampling of reactions. Goering readily gave "reasons" why he did not
consider the Russian atrocity film worth looking at: "First of all, a film
that they made is no proof, just looking at it from a legal point of view.
They could just as easily have killed a few hundred German PW's and put
them in Russian uniforms for the atrocity picture- you don't know the
Russians the way I do. Secondly, lots of those pictures were probably
taken during their own revolution, like the baskets of heads. Thirdly,
those fields covered with bodies. -Why, such pictures are easy to get any
time in a war. I've seen thoudands of bodies myself. And where did they
get _fresh_ corpses to photograph? They couldn't have come right in ready
to take pictures. They must have shot those people themselves.' He was
eager to appear perfectly satisfied in dismissing the whole thing with
this preposterous propaganda line but threw a sop to our moral
sensitivity. 'Of course, as I've always told you, it is enough if only 5
per cent of all the atrocity stories are true, from all that has already
been presented before -but I do not put any stock in what the Russians
bring. They are blaming there own atrocities on us...."



No mention at all that "rigour mortis had not set in." How unsuprising.  

Oh, btw, while I was perusing _Nuremberg Diary_ for the above, I ran
across an interesting tidbit in regards to Mr. Smith's Nazi absurdities in
regard to Justice Jackson's cross-examination of Speer. Here's what
Gilbert relates about what Schacht thought of Justice Jackson's
cross-examination of Go"ring (p.186): 



In the Elder's lunchroom, Schacht was brimming over with joy at Goering's
disconfiture. "Your Prosecutor Jackson is certainly a brilliant
cross-examiner. Even when he is not sure what he will find he beats on
each bush to see if a rabbit jumps out- and sometimes it does...." 



And for the edification of any newbies to alt.revisionism:

The  gonadotoxic Giwer-swine (tm) is, as far as I can determine, a craven
anti-Semitic and racist troller whose only interest is in slandering Jews
and causing fights.  He has profusely and consistantly lied about what has
been said in exchanges (while accusing others of lying); refused to
document claims; pretended not to see posts which contain documented
refutation of his claims (even when they have been emailed to him);
engaged in actual libel; blatant and offensive anti-Semitism; Nazi
apologia, crude sexism, prolifically abused the 'Net, sent e-mailbombs,
and harrassed people via e-mail; forged posts; and has generally conducted
himself with such a complete lack of moral, intellectual, and factual
integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
respond to such a perverted animal.  For detailed and documented evidence
of this, please refer to:

http://www.nizkor.org/encouragements/giwer.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/griwer.matt/1996/giwer.1096

http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/antisemite
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/lies
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/c-word
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/fatbroad
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/email

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Dec 15 08:12:15 PST 1996
Article: 85758 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!pumpkin.pangea.ca!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust Almanac: A "Page of Glory"
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 11:32:41 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 56
Message-ID: 
References: <58m19t$abb@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <58n4k9$k2j$3@gryphon.phoenix.net>  <58rqb1$jo0$3@gryphon.phoenix.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi146.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <58rqb1$jo0$3@gryphon.phoenix.net>,
"tavish@phoenix.net"@phoenix.net wrote:

> Mark you are living proof that the Jewish dominated media has mind
> numbed gentiles into unthinking poltroons.

How so, Doc Slavish? Do enlighten me as to why you might think these things. 

> Call me what you want man....

Indeed I shall. 

> ...but don't knock what I've said until you, yourself, have researched it!

Indeed I have. I daresay far more than you ever will.... 

> You show that you are prejudiced, prejudging, and I'd bet you have not
> carefully considered one point I made. 

Indeed I have: You have demonstrated for all to see that you are an
anti-Semite.  

> Do not let Good Morning America, CBS Evening News with Dan Rather etc. be the 
>only inputs you have. 

Fear not then -I rarely watch TV. (And definetely not the the programs you
have listed.) 

> I speak to you as a friend and not an enemy. 

Er, Doc Slavish, with "friends" like yo one does not need enemies.... 

> You owe it to yourself and others to prove me wrong then if you deep down 
> think I am off base-

Er, no. I owe it to myself appraise what you say with objetivity. I did. I
objectively concluded, after carefully weighing your invective, that you
are an anti-Semitic fruitcake. 

Fortunately, one need not take anti-Semitic fruitcakes and other assorted
loons (such as Holocaust deniers) very seriously. 

> again you may be surprised at what you will find if you turn off your TV
> and go do some serious research.

Not really. You would still be an anti-Semitic fruitcake. Seek help. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Dec 15 08:12:16 PST 1996
Article: 85784 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.insinc.net!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Nazi discusses war crimes (And response to Chuck)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 11:08:47 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 46
Message-ID: 
References: <19961211054600.AAA13161@ladder01.news.aol.com>  <32b103b2.11320646@news.alt.net> <32b212ff.8941781@news.micron.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi146.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32b212ff.8941781@news.micron.net>, kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

[snip]

> The US was destroying German vessels on the high seas before 1939 to
> provoke Hitler into a war.

This, of course, is a provable lie. I have pointed this to Mr. Smith 
several times already and challenged him to substantiate his claim. Mr.
Smith, being such a "brave" Nazi has instead chosen to tuck his tail and
run each time. 

Will Mr. Smith refer to the historical record and cite a (credible) source
that shows the United States Navy was "destroying German vessels on the
high seas before 1939 to provoke Hitler into a war?"

Or will Mr. Smith, being the craven Nazi he is, simply tuck his tail and
run away yet again? 

[Mr. Smith's Nazi ranting snipped]

Given the innumerable whoppers that can be laid at feet of the rabidly
anti-Semitic Nazi Mr. Smith, one can hardly give his rants any credence. 

One can only wonder if Mr. Smith's keepers at the National Alliance
realize he has escaped his padded cell and is skulking about the digital
street corners haranguing passers-by with his insane diatribes? 

For those interested in proof of National Alliance member Brian Smith's
(aka "Kurt Stele") rabid anti-Semitism, pathological Nazi apologia, and
that he possses an IQ of a fence post (not to mention a sewer mouth)
please visit:

http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/stele.kurt
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/smith.brian.r

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Dec 15 08:12:17 PST 1996
Article: 85785 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.insinc.net!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Israeli Atrocities and Relevance to Alt.Revisionism
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 11:10:57 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 32
Message-ID: 
References: <32b22322.13073141@news.micron.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi146.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32b22322.13073141@news.micron.net>, kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

> It will likely be complained by the Nizkor side that Israeli
> atrocities have nothing to do with the Holocaust.  Please note a few
> things:

[Mr. Smith sour Nazi grapes snipped]

Given the innumerable whoppers that can be laid at feet of the rabidly
anti-Semitic Nazi Mr. Smith, one can hardly give his rants any credence. 

One can only wonder if Mr. Smith's keepers at the National Alliance
realize he has escaped his padded cell and is skulking about the digital
street corners haranguing passers-by with his insane diatribes? 

For those interested in proof of Mr. Smith's (aka "Kurt Stele") rabid
anti-Semitism, pathological Nazi apologia, and that he possses an IQ of a
fence post (not to mention a sewer mouth) please visit:

http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/stele.kurt
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/smith.brian.r

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec 18 08:19:04 PST 1996
Article: 86346 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!node2.frontiernet.net!usenet.logical.net!dciteleport.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.religion.christian,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jews in Israel Hate Immigrants
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 07:32:10 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 47
Message-ID: 
References: <32a8c370.110136825@news.micron.net> <58d7bk$3jd$1@gryphon.phoenix.net> <58dri5$13m@lendl.cc.emory.edu>  <58mgp0$8f@news.usaor.net> <32AEEC55.76F0@columbia.edu> <58pr19$hfk@news.usaor.net> <32B0B96F.171D@ziplink.net> <32b1f14c.313026@news.micron.net> <32b368be.29313033@news.gte.net> <58vtcf$v8f@news.nyu.edu> <597m82$bbm$1@uhura.phoenix.net>
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In article <597m82$bbm$1@uhura.phoenix.net>,
"tavish@phoenix.net"@phoenix.net wrote:

[Doc Slavish's whining snipped]

>...Anytime a person questions Jews he is called Nazi scum. 

Er, no. When Nazi scum act like Nazi scum _then_ they are called Nazi scum! 

[Doc Slavish's whining snipped]

> ...We are accused of being Nazis but I have seen none of us quote Mein Kampf. 

Then you are blind as well as stupid. 

> I myself present New Testament Scriptures written by Jews but I am still 
> "anti-Semitic..." 

Er, no. You are an anti-Semite because you promulgate anti-Semitic lies
and malicious innuendo. 

[Doc Slavish's whining snipped]

> They complain of Holocaust Denial but what about the denial of Christ...

What about it? It has nothing to do with the Holocaust or Holocaust
denial.  (Other than providing you and your ilk with a puerile stalking
horse for your Jew-baiting.) 

[Doc Slavish's whining snipped]

"In Jerusalem there is a memorial site for the six million Jews murdered
by the Nazi's during World War 2. It is called Yad Vashem and was raised
1953. An avenue called "The Avenue of the Righteous" runs through this
site. The wind whispers continuously through the several hundred trees
planted there. Each and every tree has been planted to honor a non-Jewish
person risking his or her life to save Jews from the Nazi murderers." 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec 18 08:19:05 PST 1996
Article: 86391 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.clinton,alt.discrimination,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.immigration,alt.skinheads,alt.conspiracy,alt.religion.islam,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Jews in Israel Hate Immigrants
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 07:23:43 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 48
Message-ID: 
References: <32a8c370.110136825@news.micron.net> <58d7bk$3jd$1@gryphon.phoenix.net> <58dri5$13m@lendl.cc.emory.edu>   <32b52bdd.64691104@199.0.216.204>  <01bbe79b$fc85e0c0$e5809710@sheldon.ako.dec.com> <58nj6v$iut@sf18.dseg.ti.com> <32b362cb.27789962@news.gte.net> <58vqj8$vh6@news.nyu.edu> <32b61b4e.38700319@news.gte.net>  <597l8r$as6$2@uhura.phoenix.net>
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In article <597l8r$as6$2@uhura.phoenix.net>,
"tavish@phoenix.net"@phoenix.net wrote:

> Let me ask a question- just how many Sara aka perfffects, Joel
> Rosenbergs, delete the spam etc. work for Nizkor or whatever? It seems
> like all of you are on these wavelengths for extraordinary amounts of
> time everyday of the week. 

Don't flatter yourself too much Doc Slavish. It doesn't take very much
time or effort to counter the pathetic anti-Semtism and Nazi aopologia
such as bozos like yourself post. 

> How can any of you have regular jobs when you are on the computer
watching for 
> every "anti-Semite" that could come on line? 

Well, speaking for myself, having a well-paying career, easy access to the
Internet, and the ability to work whatever hours one pleases sure helps!

> All you do is try to muddy the water and discredit people who do
> not share your views. 

Whaaa! Poor baby. Don't like the fact that your degenerate ravings are so
easily refuted, eh? Too bad you pathetic loser! LOL!

> We can't hear you or see you and all of you more or less use the same
line. Which Sara is this number 1, number 2, number 3, or number 4. Has
anybody else picked up on this MO?

Whaaa! Poor baby. Don't like the fact that your degenerate ravings are so
easily refuted, eh? Too bad you pathetic loser! LOL!

"In Jerusalem there is a memorial site for the six million Jews murdered
by the Nazi's during World War 2. It is called Yad Vashem and was raised
1953. An avenue called "The Avenue of the Righteous" runs through this
site. The wind whispers continuously through the several hundred trees
planted there. Each and every tree has been planted to honor a non-Jewish
person risking his or her life to save Jews from the Nazi murderers." 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec 18 08:19:05 PST 1996
Article: 86400 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!voskovec.radio.cz!news.cesnet.cz!01-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!swidir.switch.ch!scsing.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.westel900.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Clearing the air about Posen - kr2a.jpg (0/1)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 05:20:27 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 96
Message-ID: 
References: <32ab5a08.279786841@news.micron.net> <58h9uc$hdk@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <32ac457d.34759780@news.gte.net> <32aeec6c.30812485@news.gte.net> <58p1ii$itu@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <32b6d462.24200816@news.srv.ualberta.ca>  <32b1b2cc.8925532@news.gte.net> <32b790a4.60466304@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi143.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32b790a4.60466304@news.srv.ualberta.ca>,
John.Morris@UAlberta.CA (John Morris) wrote:

> In <32b1b2cc.8925532@news.gte.net>, Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net)
> posting as destroyer@navy.water (Arleigh Burke) wrote:
> 
> >On Fri, 13 Dec 1996 14:18:37 -0700, mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van
> >Alstine) wrote:
> 
> >>In article <32b6d462.24200816@news.srv.ualberta.ca>,
> >>John.Morris@UAlberta.CA (John Morris) wrote:
> 
> >>> ...If I were better qualified to render such an opinion, I would say 
> >>> further that he is suffering from some sort of infantile psychological 
> >>> disorder. But I will leave such opinions to those who know better.
> >>
> >>More like "better living through chemistry," if you get m6y drift....
> 
> >>Alcohol abuse, I'm told, can cause severe mental as well as physical
disorders.
> 
> >>The  gonadotoxic Giwer-swine is, 
> 
> Oh look, Mark, Giwer has "punished" us by posting his aerial photo
> with his sad little labels. 

Sorry, John, the drunken pig has been in my killfile for _months_ now, so
I've had the good fortune not to have to be concerned about the pigshit he
spreads around.... 

> ...I think this one dates back to the days when he claimed there were no 
> underground rooms at Kremas II and III.

Yup, that rings a bell or two. The drunken pig must have passed out after
posting _that_ particular pile of crap.

> I believe he is currently claiming that they were connected by an
> underground tunnel that crosses under the rail siding.

The drunken pig claims many things. However, I don't give much credence to what 
drunken pigs say....

> Do your feel punished, Mark? I know I do for I shal soon start
> bleeding from my ears it is so punishing.

Yup, I feel _so_ "punished!" I fell of my chair from laughing too hard and
slightly bruised my elbow.... 

> >If history has taught us anything it is that history will be revised.
> 
> The new mantra. Something Giwer's handlers have told him to say as he
> would not know it independently through study, hard work, or, least of
> all, reading.

Agreed. Considering the inebrated stupor that must define the besotted
pig's state of being, I would venture to guess good ol' Pavlovian
conditioning would be the prefered method....

Or electroshock therapy maybe? 

The  gonadotoxic Giwer-swine is, as far as I can determine, a craven
anti-Semitic and racist troller whose only interest is in slandering Jews
and causing fights.  He has profusely and consistantly lied about what has
been said in exchanges (while accusing others of lying), refused to
document claims, pretended not to see posts which contain documented
refutation of his claims (even when they have been emailed to him),
engaged in actual libel, blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi
apologia, crude sexism, and has generally conducted himself with such a
complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be
no point in taking the time to read and respond to him.  For detailed and
documented evidence of this, please refer to


http://www.nizkor.org/encouragements/
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/email/
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/net-abuse/
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/forgeries.1096
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/antisemite 
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/simpering-bitch
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/fatbroad
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/c-word
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/plagarized-01.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lie-freely-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/thousand-dollar


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec 18 08:19:06 PST 1996
Article: 86402 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sgi.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.society.conservatism,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.misc,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.usa,alt.conspiracy,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.equality,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: A Nazi discusses war crimes (And response to Chuck)
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 09:59:58 -0700
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Lines: 52
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In article <32b737e5.89408064@news.micron.net>, kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

One can only wonder if Mr. Smith's keepers at the National Alliance
realize he has escaped his padded cell and is skulking about the digital
street corners haranguing passers-by with his insane diatribes? 

[Mr. Smith's senile Nazi drooling snipped]

> >>The US was destroying German vessels on the high seas before 1939 to
> >>provoke Hitler into a war.
> >
> >Uh, no.  The UK was destroying German vessels with US hardware, but
> >this was *after* the war began.
> 
> Wrong.  

Would Mr. Smith care to make a little wager on this? Or will the yellow
streak down his back cause him to run away yet again? 

[Mr. Smith's senile Nazi drooling snipped]

> At the Nuremberg Tribunal, chief U.S. prosecutor Robert Jackson
> charged that the Germans invented" a device to instantaneously
> "vaporize" 20,000 Jews near Auschwitz "in such a way that there was no
> trace left of them." IMT blue series, Vol. 16, p. 529-530. (June 21,
> 1946).  No reputable historian now accepts this fanciful tale. 

And only pathetic little Nazis like Mr. Smith keep repeating such lies.
The absolute moral and intellectual depravity of Mr. Smith and his Nazi
ilk in continuing to promulgate this is revealed at: 

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/j/jackson.robert/vaporizing-device-context

For those interested in proof of National Alliance member Brian Smith's
(aka "Kurt Stele") rabid anti-Semitism, pathological Nazi apologia, and
that he possses an IQ of a fence post (not to mention a sewer mouth)
please visit:

http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/stele.kurt
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/smith.brian.r


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec 18 08:19:07 PST 1996
Article: 86430 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.immigration,alt.skinheads,alt.conspiracy,alt.religion.islam,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Jews in Israel Hate Immigrants
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 09:17:06 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 25
Message-ID: 
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In article <597ov1$bkj$4@uhura.phoenix.net>,
"tavish@phoenix.net"@phoenix.net wrote:

[Mr. McTavish's silly ranting snipped]

> Attention lurkers- want to see science fiction in action just look at
> how aliens treat their hosts on a daily basis.
> Doc Tavish

Apparantly Mr. McTavish's weird "beliefs" extend not only Jews, Gentiles,
and Muslims, but to how _extraterrestrials_ (!) treat their (parasitic?)
"hosts" as well! 

In describing the mental state of a person with such beliefs, the phrase
"not playing with a full deck" springs to mind....

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec 18 08:19:09 PST 1996
Article: 86431 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jews in Israel Hate Immigrants
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 12:27:41 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 29
Message-ID: 
References: <32a8c370.110136825@news.micron.net> <58d7bk$3jd$1@gryphon.phoenix.net> <58dri5$13m@lendl.cc.emory.edu>  <58mgp0$8f@news.usaor.net> <32AEEC55.76F0@columbia.edu> <58pr19$hfk@news.usaor.net> <32B0B96F.171D@ziplink.net> <32b1f14c.313026@news.micron.net> <32b368be.29313033@news.gte.net> <32b5d564.69023800@news.micron.net> <597mq1$bbm$2@uhura.phoenix.net>  <597vkg$d2b$2@uhura.phoenix.net>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <597vkg$d2b$2@uhura.phoenix.net>,
"tavish@phoenix.net"@phoenix.net wrote:

> I was rferring to what a certain kike prefers to eat yid! 

Flustered are we? Try not sucking with your mouth so full next time. 

> Musch love toward you chosen ones! 

I'm a "chosenn one? Does that mean I just won the lottery? Yahoooo! 

> I will not apologize any more to you bastards.

Awwwww..... Is the Nazi bumboy's widdle feelings hurt? 

> Doc Tavish Digging in

More like Nazi bumboy Mr. McTavish digging his own grave.... 


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec 18 08:19:09 PST 1996
Article: 86436 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!news.bconnex.net!trellis.wwnet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MENACING TROLL FLAUNTS FAILURE AGAIN
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 05:08:31 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 45
Distribution: world
Message-ID: 
References: <32a9c871.2323821@news.gte.net> <32ac457d.34759780@news.gte.net> <58lc7b$1j5i$13@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <32aeec6c.30812485@news.gte.net> <58oor8$p1m@itssrv1.ucsf.edu> <32b08811.9067897@news.gte.net> <58qt92$rjk@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> <32b1b0d1.8418519@news.gte.net> <32b2631d.17004787@news.uniserve.com>
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In article <32b2631d.17004787@news.uniserve.com>, hostrov@uniserve.com
(Hilary Ostrov) wrote:

[snip]

> Do yourself a favour, Giwer-troll.  Find something in life at which
> you stand a remote chance of succeeding. 

Isn't it a little late for that? I mean, isn't mastering beer-chugging
until one passes out a (post-adolecent) college thing? 

The  gonadotoxic Giwer-swine is, as far as I can determine, a craven
anti-Semitic and racist troller whose only interest is in slandering Jews
and causing fights.  He has profusely and consistantly lied about what has
been said in exchanges (while accusing others of lying), refused to
document claims, pretended not to see posts which contain documented
refutation of his claims (even when they have been emailed to him),
engaged in actual libel, blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi
apologia, crude sexism, and has generally conducted himself with such a
complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be
no point in taking the time to read and respond to him.  For detailed and
documented evidence of this, please refer to

http://www.nizkor.org/encouragements/
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/email/
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/net-abuse/
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/forgeries.1096
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/antisemite 
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/simpering-bitch
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/fatbroad
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/c-word
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/plagarized-01.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lie-freely-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/thousand-dollar

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec 18 08:19:10 PST 1996
Article: 86439 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsserv.freeway.net!news2.netdtw.com!rust.net!news.megsinet.net!news.nap.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: DIE NAZI SCUM!!!
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 09:53:22 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 69
Message-ID: 
References: <32A5E11A.1B6F@rand.nidlink.com> <585j1b$i3n@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <58d63e$84q$1@gryphon.phoenix.net> <58dq7c$13m@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <58fmet$crj$1@gryphon.phoenix.net> <58n7ue$an8@snow.btinternet.com> <32AF6728.4098@nbnet.nb.ca> <58pblk$3er$1@gryphon.phoenix.net> <32b47f39.74109350@206.98.16.3> <32b0d785.14258969@news.gte.net> <32b78aa9.142583768@news.nethawk.net> <591qks$sgn@snow.btinternet.com>  <597sbq$br6$6@uhura.phoenix.net>
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In article <597sbq$br6$6@uhura.phoenix.net>,
"tavish@phoenix.net"@phoenix.net wrote:

[snip]

> Sara we dumb gentiles are nuttin but a bunch of ol' Bubbas an hayseeds.
> We beed such dumbasses- if we lets you teach us to beed smart then maybe
> we can even beed smartasses likes you all you Jews. :-)

Groveling will get you nowhere, Mr. Mr. McTavish. The fact that you are a
self-admitted dumbass cannot be rectified by ass-kissing. I suggest to you
that graduating from high school is a more appropriate endeavor. 

> Matt is a victim of Jewish oppresion and he is only reacting to Judah's
> constant slander. 

The Giwer-swine is a victim of ignorance, self-hatred, and alcoholism. His
anti-Semitism and misanthropy are but outward sysmptoms of his (numerous)
self-afflictions.  Jews were not responsible for his downward path- he
was. Only he can rectify his sad plight. This, unsuprisingly, he chooses
not to do. Instead, he wallows in his own feces, blaming the Jews (and
others) being responsible for his putrid condition. 

And _you_ make excuses for him. How telling.

> Call someone negative long enough and he becomes it.

To call someone what they are is but to say what they are. 

[Mr. McTavish's "pop psychology" rant snipped]

For those unfamiliar with the Porcine Prince:

The  gonadotoxic Giwer-swine (tm) is, as far as I can determine, a craven
anti-Semitic and racist troller whose only interest is in slandering Jews
and causing fights.  He has profusely and consistantly lied about what has
been said in exchanges (while accusing others of lying); refused to
document claims; pretended not to see posts which contain documented
refutation of his claims (even when they have been emailed to him);
engaged in actual libel; blatant and offensive anti-Semitism; Nazi
apologia, crude sexism, prolifically abused the 'Net, sent e-mailbombs,
and harrassed people via e-mail; forged posts; and has generally conducted
himself with such a complete lack of moral, intellectual, and factual
integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
respond to such a perverted animal.  For detailed and documented evidence
of this, please refer to:

http://www.nizkor.org/encouragements/giwer.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/griwer.matt/1996/giwer.1096

http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/antisemite
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/lies
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/c-word
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/fatbroad
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/email


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec 18 08:19:11 PST 1996
Article: 86447 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Reply to Jim Stuart regarding Talmud "quotations"
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 12:08:49 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 36
Message-ID: 
References:  <32b735bc.88854957@news.micron.net>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32b735bc.88854957@news.micron.net>, kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

[Mr. Smith's senile Nazi drooling snipped]

One can only wonder if Mr. Smith's keepers at the National Alliance
realize he has escaped his padded cell and is skulking about the digital
street corners haranguing passers-by with his insane diatribes? 

> "We Jews, we are the destroyers and will remain the
> destroyers. Nothing you can do  will meet our demands and
> needs. We will forever destroy because we want a world of
> our  own." (You Gentiles, by Jewish Author Maurice Samuels,
> p. 155).

Every absurdity has a champion to defend it."
              -Oliver Goldsmith 


For those interested in proof of Mr. Smith's (aka "Kurt Stele") rabid
anti-Semitism, pathological Nazi apologia, and that he possses an IQ of a
fence post (not to mention a sewer mouth) please visit:

http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/stele.kurt
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/smith.brian.r


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec 18 08:19:12 PST 1996
Article: 86474 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sgi.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.clinton,alt.discrimination,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.immigration,alt.skinheads,alt.conspiracy,alt.religion.islam,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Jews in Israel Hate Immigrants
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 13:16:28 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 74
Message-ID: 
References: <32a8c370.110136825@news.micron.net> <58d7bk$3jd$1@gryphon.phoenix.net> <58dri5$13m@lendl.cc.emory.edu>   <32b52bdd.64691104@199.0.216.204>  <01bbe79b$fc85e0c0$e5809710@sheldon.ako.dec.com> <58nj6v$iut@sf18.dseg.ti.com> <32AF8A15.40EB@columbia.edu> <58rs1m$jo0$8@gryphon.phoenix.net> <32B1CFA8.401@nbnet.nb.ca> <597ues$br6$12@uhura.phoenix.net>
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In article <597ues$br6$12@uhura.phoenix.net>,
"tavish@phoenix.net"@phoenix.net wrote:

> Keith Morrison wrote:
> > 
> > Doc Tavish wrote:
> > 
> > > > A correction about that:
> > > >
> > > > althought it would not make Israel "racist" to not allow Israeli
arabs or
> > > > muslims into the army, in fact it DOES allow them to voulenteer
and sometimes
> > > > they are accepted.  I had arab soldiers as friends in the army.
> > > >
> > > > Avital pilpel.
> > >
> > > You are crabwalking Avitel. What Israel is doing looks pretty racist to
> > > me- judging by the same exact criteria that you all judge the white
> > > gentiles in America.
> > 
> > A man who uses the term "Yid" is not exactly in a position to complain
> > about someone else being a racist.
> > 
> > --
> > Keith Morrison
> > lonewolf@nbnet.nb.ca
> > http://www.dmmw.com/lonewolf/keithm.html
> 
> I publicly apologized for using that remark and have said I would not
> use it again BUT after seeing post after post after post of what you all
> constantly call us I am strongly considering using something even worse.

Oh, I'm just quaking in my boots! Oh, me! Oh, my! 

BWAHAHAHAHAHA! 

> None of you have ever apologized for being rude and your behaviour is
> what will result in your own demise- remember (and I am not making a
> personal threat) we outnumber you all....

And here I though us WASPs outnumbered Nazi bumboys like you, Mr. McTavish. 

> ...and your constant taunts and continued use of terms even more insulting 
> than Yids will sooner orlater result in a payback on a much grander scale.

'Bout time too! I sure could use a bigger paycheck right about now
-Christmas is comin' ya know!  

> People can only stand to have their noses rubbed in it only tooo long!

Well, Mr. McTavish, in _that_ case you might as well bender over, grab
your ankles, and "assume the position," (head up)  'cause if you think
you've had your nose "rubbed in it" you ain't seen _nothin'_ yet!  

Yahooo! Here comes the feared SS* division "Das Nasenbluten."

*Schutzsalbe


> Doc Tavish

Yes, it's true, this man has no dick.
       -Ghostbusters

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec 18 08:19:13 PST 1996
Article: 86478 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!freenet.unbc.edu!news.scn.org!news.abs.net!in1.nntp.cais.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.religion.islam,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Jews in Israel Hate Immigrants
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 09:06:29 -0700
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In article <597ns6$bkj$1@uhura.phoenix.net>,
"tavish@phoenix.net"@phoenix.net wrote:

[snip]

> "Call a person a Nazi long enough- he just may turn into one." Doc
> Tavish Gentile

Here's one, given your genital fixation, more up your alley, Mr. McTavish:

Yes, it's true, this man has no dick.
       -Ghostbusters

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec 18 12:58:47 PST 1996
Article: 39355 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!freenet.unbc.edu!news.scn.org!news.abs.net!in1.nntp.cais.net!tezcat!feed1.news.erols.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.religion.islam,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Jews in Israel Hate Immigrants
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 07:18:00 -0700
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In article <597lfb$as6$3@uhura.phoenix.net>,
"tavish@phoenix.net"@phoenix.net wrote:

> Christians should be able to see what some degenerate Pharisee wrote
> about Jesus. Pharisees haven't gone away they have only changed styles
> of clothing and their name. They still are Christ Deniers and enemies
> today of his followers.

Indeed those "Aryan" pagans sure _are_ one degenerate bunch of "useless
eaters." I bet ol' Adolf must be rolling in his (unmarked) grave knowing
that such bozos are all that's left to carry his despicable banner. 

"In Jerusalem there is a memorial site for the six million Jews murdered
by the Nazi's during World War 2. It is called Yad Vashem and was raised
1953. An avenue called "The Avenue of the Righteous" runs through this
site. The wind whispers continuously through the several hundred trees
planted there. Each and every tree has been planted to honor a non-Jewish
person risking his or her life to save Jews from the Nazi murderers." 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec 18 12:58:48 PST 1996
Article: 39358 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!freenet.unbc.edu!news.scn.org!news.abs.net!in1.nntp.cais.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.clinton,alt.discrimination,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.immigration,alt.skinheads,alt.conspiracy,alt.religion.islam,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jews in Israel Hate Immigrants
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 07:35:31 -0700
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In article <597mq1$bbm$2@uhura.phoenix.net>,
"tavish@phoenix.net"@phoenix.net wrote:

> I must ask this: If eating a cheeseburger is un-Kosher then is it kosher
> for Mass Rep. Barney Frank to place another man's private into his oral
> cavity? 

Why are you asking, Doc Slavish? Thinking about gving it a try? 

[Doc Slavish's "oratory" on his genital fixation snipped]

"In Jerusalem there is a memorial site for the six million Jews murdered
by the Nazi's during World War 2. It is called Yad Vashem and was raised
1953. An avenue called "The Avenue of the Righteous" runs through this
site. The wind whispers continuously through the several hundred trees
planted there. Each and every tree has been planted to honor a non-Jewish
person risking his or her life to save Jews from the Nazi murderers." 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec 18 12:58:49 PST 1996
Article: 39360 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.religion.islam,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Jews in Israel Hate Immigrants
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 09:02:35 -0700
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In article <597oj6$bkj$3@uhura.phoenix.net>,
"tavish@phoenix.net"@phoenix.net wrote:

[snip]

> Still another example of the "chosen's" arrogant "hate speech" toward a
> gentile beast. 

Mr. McTavish, that you consider yourself an animal- though fitting -speaks
volumes about your (lack of) self-respect. No wonder you seem incapable of
respecting others! 

[Mr. McTavish's silly ranting snipped]

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec 18 13:43:05 PST 1996
Article: 86520 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.discrimination,alt.skinheads,alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.islam
Subject: Re: Holocaust Almanac: A "Page of Glory"
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 13:21:42 -0700
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In article <594uso$sgp$1@uhura.phoenix.net>,
"tavish@phoenix.net"@phoenix.net wrote:

> Keith Morrison wrote:
> > 
> > Doc Tavish wrote:
> > 
> > > > > Do your immense files cover the atrocities committed by Jews against
> > > > > gentiles for thousands of years o arrogant, self righteous person?
> > > >
> > > > Er, Doc Slavish, _why_ should Nizkor, which is an archive of Holocaust
> > > > (and related) information and resources, be concerned about your
> > > > anti-Semitic fantasies regarding "atrocities committed by Jews against
> > > > gentiles?"
> > >
> 
> > 
> > To repeat, what does your original question have to do with an archive
> > for Holocaust-related material?
> > 
> > --
> > Keith Morrison
> > lonewolf@nbnet.nb.ca
> > http://www.dmmw.com/lonewolf/keithm.html
> 
> Oh errant one, how do you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that many of
> those pictures that Nizkor has could not have been taken by the
> Communists (Jewish ones at that) of their Holocaust on gentiles during
> their blood thirsty campaigns against many millions more gentiles. I
> only wish photographic records could have been made during Israel's Old
> Testament biblical campaigns against gentiles too! The way Nizkor has
> dealt with me I don't expect anything noble from a serpent.
> 
> I ask again what sort of paranoid sick group of people spend hours a day
> seeking to catch a slip of the word or what Pharisees did "trapping you
> in speech" doing surveillance, and keeping files on people? What sort of
> organization has connections with law enforcement agencies such as The
> Southern Poverty Law Center (also run by Jews) and has free exchange of
> information between them and against private citizens at that. What sort
> of organization gives itself authority to label people as dangerous to
> society? A damned dangerous one at that!
> 
> The members of Nizkor, the ADL, the Southern Poverty Law Center and any
> other related organizations showed all be tarred, feathered, and run out
> of town at the point of pitchforks for the treachery they do. No
> organization should be able to treat private citizens in the manner they
> do. I make appeal to all that believe in freedom of privacy, freedom
> from intrusion and freedom of liberty. These Jewish organizations mirror
> the KGB and Cheka.

Translation: Not a dammed thing. Mr. McTavish, being an anti-Semitic Nazi
bumboy, was simply looking for an excuse to go Jew-bashing. 

> Doc Tavish

Yes, it's true, this man has no dick.
       -Ghostbusters

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec 18 16:51:40 PST 1996
Article: 86560 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!hookup!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Fuhrer's Gaze (Thank You, ourhero!)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 01:36:29 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
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In article , dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

> The lame Nazi-apologist "rblackmore", posting under
> the alias of tutu101@aol.com (Tutu101), writes:
> 
> [Article consisting of the header of an article posted 
> to alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.pornstars]
> 
> Has this miserable little Nazi completely lost his
> mind? Is this the final reply that these "revisionists"
> can give when their stupid lies are exposed?

Dr. Keren, Mr. Belling, the lying scumbag Nazi apologist, has currently
fixated on the sadisctic Irma Grese as his latest Nazi idol. It has been
said that Grese, the "blond Angel of Belsen," though a sadistic torturer
and murderer, was quite beautiful. Given the obvious paucity of neurons
between  Mr. Belling's ears, and his obvious crush on Grese, one cannot
help but speculate that the sexually repressed Mr. Belling crossed a few
too many of them and came up with
"alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.pornstars. "

A Freudiuan slip perhaps? Or simply Mr. Belling's projecting yet another
of Nazi fantasies? Either way, it simply highlights what a depravced and
repulsive person Mr. Belling truly is. 

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec 18 16:51:41 PST 1996
Article: 86566 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Nazi replies to a War Criminal
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 12:05:09 -0700
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In article <32b7379c.89334851@news.micron.net>, kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

One can only wonder if Mr. Smith's keepers at the National Alliance
realize he has escaped his padded cell and is skulking about the digital
street corners haranguing passers-by with his insane diatribes? 

> Assuming "hundreds of thousands more" were killed even though never
> finding the mass graves.  

Obviously, Mr.Smith is (willfully) "ignorant" of the mass grave at Serniki:

http://search.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?places/ukraine/serniki-excavations


And the mass grave at Khmelnitski-Proskurov:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?places/ukraine/images/khmelnitski-proskurov-grave.jpg


And the mass grave Atvinnitsa:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?places/ukraine/images/vinnitsa-grave-01.jpg


And the mass grave at Babi Yar:

http://search.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?orgs/german/einsatzgruppen/blobel.01


And the mass grave Minsk:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?places/ussr/minsk/minsk.002
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?places/ussr/minsk/minsk.004


And the mass grave at Treblinka:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/aktion.reinhard/treblinka/images/treblinka-grave-01.jpg

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/aktion.reinhard/treblinka/images/treblinka-grave-02.jpg

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/aktion.reinhard/treblinka/shoah-suchomel-transcript


And the mass grave and incineration pits at Auschwitz:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/himmlers-second-inspection
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/crematoria/burning-pits
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/images/burning-pit.jpg


> Or that any more than 70,000 or so Jews died
> of all causes as listed in the death-books of Auschwitz....

And which "death-books of Auschwitz" is Mr. Smith talking about, exactly?
There are several death/morgue/bunker registers pertaining to Auschwitz. 

Irregardless, Mr Smith is _still_ unable (or unwilling) to comprehend that
only a small minority of those who died at Auschwitz had their deaths
registered.
Those who _did_ have their deaths registered where generally those who had
been _registered_ (and interred) in the camp. Even then such records were
largely discontinued (except for German nationals [i.e. "Aryans") after
1942 or so. The vast majority of those murdered in the numerous "special
actions" at Auschwitz were deportess who generally were never registered
and were not interred into the camp on anything but a temporary basis
(during Aktion Ho"ss) while awaiting their turn to be exterminated. 


> reducing the toll from 4 million to 1 million back down to 70,000...

Mr. Smith takes yet another crack at beating the dead "Four Million
Variant" dead horse:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/4-million-variant
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/4-million-variant-02
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/gambit.001

> ...there never found physical evidence for the extermination thesis (it also 
> being entirely inconsistent with existing physical evidence)... 

Yes there was. To give but a few examples:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/criminal-traces.01
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/crematoria/burning-pits
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/images/burning-pit.jpg
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/crematoria/order-for-door
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/crematoria/peepholes-in-doors
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/images/Door.jpg
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/crematoria/heating-system
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/images/Chambr01.jpg
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/images/Gaskammern.jpg
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/images/Vergasungskeller.jpg
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/images/Invntry.jpg
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/kremer-diary
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/sonderbehandlung.01

...And last, but not least:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?orgs/polish/institute-for-forensic-research/post-leuchter.report


> ...and no physical evidence for concluding that the Auschwitz death-books were
> not accurate for the most part.

Again, which "death-books of Auschwitz" is Mr. Smith talking about,
exactly? There are several death/morgue/bunker registers pertaining to
Auschwitz. 


> >Just off the top of my head, I can see
> >that you would easily get nine or ten million Jews that way - so cutting
> >three million Auschwitz dead from _that_ total would _still_ leave you
> >somewhere around six million Jewish deaths.
> 
> Considering that Himmler's statistician, Dr. Richard Kohrerr and the
> World Center of Contemporary Jewish Documentation put the number
> respectively at 5,550,000 and 5,294,000 when German-occupied territory
> was at its widest, and both these figures include the two million Jews
> of the Baltic and western Russia without paying any attention to the
> large number who were evacuated.  

Mr. Smith's Nazi inanities aside, estimates for the number of victims of
the Holocaust in general, and at Auschwitz specifically, can be found at:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/victims/numbers.killed
  
> No doubt you will give great credibility to the listing of 11 million
> used in the Wannsee Protocol -- a document of dubious authenticity and
> origin.  

Mr. Smith's Nazi inanities aside, a transcription of the Wannsee Protocol
can be found at:

http://library.byu.edu/~rdh/eurodocs/germ/wanneng.html


[Mr. Smith's Nazi inanities sniiped]

> "All truth passes through 3 stages. First, it is ridiculed.
> Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as
> being self-evident." --- Arthur Schopenhauer 

"The truth is spread on the record before us, and all we have to do is
state the truth plainly. The German militarists joined forces with Hitler
and with him created the Third Reich; with him they deliberately made a
world in which might was all that mattered; with him him they plunged the
world into war, and spread terror and devestation over the continent of
Europe. They dealt a blow at all mankind; a blow so savage and foul that
the conscience of the world will reel for years to come. This was not war;
it was crime. This was not soldiering; it was savagery. We cannot make
history over again, but we can see that it is written true."  -Telford
Taylor

And here's one especially for Mr. Smith and his Nazi bretheren at the
National Alliance:

One who condones evils is just as guilty as the one who perpetrates it.
- Dr. Martin Luthor King Jr.


For those interested in proof of Mr. Smith's (aka "Kurt Stele") rabid
anti-Semitism, pathological Nazi apologia, and that he possses an IQ of a
fence post (not to mention a sewer mouth) please visit:

http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/stele.kurt
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/smith.brian.r

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec 18 17:16:17 PST 1996
Article: 86580 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.ukrainian,soc.culture.baltics,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.g-gordon-liddy
Subject: Re: Demjanjuk: Can His Defenders Document Their Claims?
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 04:11:01 -0700
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Lines: 46
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In article <599trc$ku8$1@uhura.phoenix.net>,
"tavish@phoenix.net"@phoenix.net wrote:

> Geoff Cooper wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > OK, you're a Nazi.  You're not a Jew.
> > 
> > By the way, do you know why the Fuehrer's storm troopers had button
> > flies on their trousers?--because the sheep could hear their zippers a
> > mile off!

ROTFL!

> > 
> Geoff you sorry sack I take morbid offense at your assault on my
> character. 

No, it's an assult on your _parantage_!  You baaaaaaad boooooy! 

> If you were at my face I would slap you with a glove and
> challenge you to a duel. 

And very likely woul get your head blown off because you couldn't figure
out which end of the barrel had the hole in it! 

Too much inbreeding does that, ya know....

> I prefer goats to sheep! 

 

> Doc Tavish

Yes, it's true, this man has no dick.
       -Ghostbusters

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec 18 18:08:54 PST 1996
Article: 86594 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!mongol.sasknet.sk.ca!canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!portc02.blue.aol.com!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.activism,alt.conspiracy,alt.discrimination,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.immigration,alt.skinheads,alt.religion.islam,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish Media Control: Close-Up
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In article , joelr@winternet.com (Joel
Rosenberg) wrote:

> Doc Tavish <"tavish@phoenix.net"@phoenix.net> writes:

[snip]

> >An honest question. Seriously how many hate crimes have been filed
> >against gentiles for giving a conceited big mouth person just one good
> >one right across the lips?
> 
> 
> I know you want to kiss me, Ducko, but I'm afraid you're not my type.

But the Giwer-swine evidently is. Mr. McTavish seems to be spending quite
a bit of time sucking-up to him.  Maybe the Giwer-swine will let Mr.
McTavish kiss his ass? (It's more sanitary than his mouth.) 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec 18 18:14:54 PST 1996
Article: 45833 of alt.skinheads
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!mongol.sasknet.sk.ca!canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!portc02.blue.aol.com!howland.erols.net!news.sgi.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.clinton,alt.discrimination,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.immigration,alt.skinheads,alt.conspiracy,alt.religion.islam,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Jews in Israel Hate Immigrants
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 13:38:04 -0700
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In article <32b75efe.99417809@news.micron.net>, kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

[snip]

> U.S. lackeys whooping up on countries for the military interest of
> Israel is something that evidently excites your glands.

Er, what does "U.S. lackeys whooping up on countries" mean? Did Mr. Smith
mean "whooping it up in countries" instead? Like the U-boat crews used to
do? You know, like some serious falling-down-drunk-with-a-lampshade-on
your-head partying? If so, I'm afraid Mr. Smith has forgotten that the
followers of the Prophet abstain- for religious reason -from consuming
alcohol. It is forbidden in many Islamic countries. 

For those interested in proof of Mr. Smith's (aka "Kurt Stele") rabid
anti-Semitism, pathological Nazi apologia, and that he possses an IQ of a
fence post (not to mention a sewer mouth) please visit:

http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/stele.kurt
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/smith.brian.r

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec 18 20:40:56 PST 1996
Article: 86602 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!news.bconnex.net!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The MOVIE you FOOLS!
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 04:58:31 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 50
Message-ID: 
References:  <32ad72c9.29592052@news.gte.net>  <32b08bca.10020352@news.gte.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi143.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article , dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

> minesweeper@navy.water (Force) writes:
> 
> # Read up on the primary Nuremberg trial and find out about
> # the film produced by the Soviets. You will find it there.
> 
> Post the exact location. Next time, ask Alan B. Kennady,
> who's feeding you with material, to send all the details.
> 
> # Even the unethical Dr. Gilbert mentions that Goring
> # pointed out to him that rigour mortis had not set in.
> 
> So what?
> 
> # Excuse me.  In fact their families WERE ARRESTED (Goring,
> # Speer, et al.)
> 
> Just for the record, can anyone confirm what the drunkard
> wrote here?

In the case of Frau Go"ring, yes, she was arrested initially but was
released from custody and retired to a house in Sackdilling with her
daughter. Of course, according to Frau Go"ring, she and her daughter were
also arrested and incarcerated for seven weeks (and slated to be shot) on
Hitler's orders for her _husband's_ disloyalty. In fact, she commented to
Gilbert that, "...I assure you what I have put up with the last few months
is nothing compared to what we went through when Hitler ordered Herman and
his family arrested and shot..." (cf. Gilbert, _Nuremburg Diary_,
pp.211-212.)

In the case of Frau Streicher, she was sequestered as a witness _for_ her
husband's defense. Considering this, I would find it odd to criticize the
_prosecution_ for her "arrest." (cf. Taylor, _The Anatomy of the Nuremberg
Trials_, p.547.) 

[snip]

Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec 18 20:40:57 PST 1996
Article: 86606 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!mongol.sasknet.sk.ca!canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!gatech!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.clinton,alt.discrimination,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.immigration,alt.skinheads,alt.conspiracy,alt.religion.islam,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Jews in Israel Hate Immigrants
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 08:59:13 -0700
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In article <597oef$bkj$2@uhura.phoenix.net>,
"tavish@phoenix.net"@phoenix.net wrote:

[snip]

> Another sterling example of "hate speech" by the chosen ones. Will this
> ever make it into Nizkor's files? Me thinks not!

Well, Mr. McTavish, you got it _partly_ right: you _don't_ think! 

> Pay attention lurkers you will see the chosen never apologize, they
> constantly name call and their stock answer is to call gentiles Nazis. 

Er, No. Nazis are called Nazis. And anti-Semites are called anti-Semites.
And Holocaust deniers, who are often Nazis (i.e. Brian Smith [a.k.a "Kurt
Stele"]); and Nazi apologists (i.e Joseph Belling [a.k.a "jbelling,"
"rblackmore," and "Tutu101"]);  and anti-Semites, (i.e. _you_) are called
Holocaust deniers.  

This seems to put a twist in your knickers for some reasons. Why is that?
Can't take the heat? 

[Mr. Mr. McTavish's silly ranting snipped]

> Doc Tavish pointing out the "chosen's" hate and sheer lack of respect
> for members of the host nation.
> 
> The United States was not founded on Judaism- why must we let its
> adherents tell us how we may observe our religion in public? Hmmmh?

Interesting, is it not, that you seem consider National Socialism a
religion.... 

> It is easy to call names when you hold the recipient in dis-respect.

Indeed. It is also easy to call disrespectuful and hateful people the
names they deserve. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Dec 19 05:54:14 PST 1996
Article: 86617 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!node2.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: A Nazi replies to a War Criminal
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 05:47:44 -0700
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In article <59a210$lkk$1@uhura.phoenix.net>,
"tavish@phoenix.net"@phoenix.net wrote:

> Mark Van Alstine wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > > >       Ah yes, the pure light of the truth propagated by the sickest
> > > >motherfucker the world has ever known.
> > >
> > > 
> > 
> > Ah, Mr. Smith is just torqued 'cause he found out his mother used to swim
> > after Allied troopships....
> > 
> > For those interested in proof of National Alliance member Brian Smith's
> > (aka "Kurt Stele") rabid anti-Semitism, pathological Nazi apologia, and
> > that he possses an IQ of a fence post (not to mention a sewer mouth)
> > please visit:
> > 
> > http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/stele.kurt
> > http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/smith.brian.r
> > 
> > Mark
> > 
> >
> Mark the only people that I see that consistently and without fail use a
> sewer mouth are you Jews from Nizkor and your sycophant shabbos goy. 

So speaketh a craven and puerile Nazi hatemonger. 

> Let the public be the judge- just read the postings. 

Indeed. The public _has_ judged. You and your ilk have been found wanting.

> The anti-Christ Jews are always branding others as anti-Semites that
disagree > with them- hence my use of anti-Christ. 

So speaketh a craven and puerile Nazi hatemonger. 

Btw, biblically, speaking, the anti-Christ is a singular being- Satan -and
not the Jews, you cretin.

> You and your Kremlin brethern cannot control yourselves and you are losing it 
> when all you can do is name call and make insinuations. 

Pot. Kettle. Black. Nazi bumboy. 

> The KGB kept files on people too. 

So does the FBI. And the CIA. And the police.... 

> If anyone looks up Kurt's don't miss mine. 

Why? starved for attention? Face it, Nazi bumboy, a two-bit psychotic
anti-Semite like you isn't worth paying attention to. Insulting, yes. But
taking seriously? No. 

> Just look under Doc Tavish

More apropo is to look under "Nazi bumboy." Or "dickless." Or perhaps,
considering your self-admitted penchant for goats, "alt.sex.animals"....

> Kurt please ol' boy do send me the official application form to join
> National Alliance.

Yes, Mr. Smith, please _do_ send this Nazi bumboy an official application!
I can think of no better way to highlight the moral depravity of you Nazi
cultists for all to see! Just thinking of Mr. McTavish spewing his insane
effleunt on behalf of the National Alliance gives me goosebumps in
anticipation! 

Besides, it's nice to have all the kooks in one place where they can be
kept track of....

> Mark I changed the posted groups because only your remarks belong in
> kooks.

Agreed. The "alt.politics.white-power" and
"alt.politics.nationalism.white" groups are indeed the septic abodes of
racist kooks and hateful vipers. 

You should feel quite at home sucking-up to them there. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Dec 19 05:54:15 PST 1996
Article: 86633 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!news.alfred.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Now Playing....Irma Grese
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 23:15:41 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 130
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References:  <5961lv$sof@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi143.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <5961lv$sof@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> Yes--these womwn were undoubtedly suffering from dysentery and had been
> brought to the sauna or disinfection and treatment building.  

Er, no. If Mr. Belling weren't such a lying scumbag Nazi apologist, he
would have the honesty to acknowledge that these "Moslem" women, according
to Kremer, were murdered with poison gas in one of the bunkers. (cf.
Czech, _KL Auschwitz_, p.215fn.) 

Furthermore, Mr. Belling's abject ignorance of the delousiung and
disinfestation installations at Auschwitz II-Birkenau manifests itself for
all to see. There were two Zyklon B disinfestation chambers (BW 5a and 5b)
in BI; there was a disenfestation installation in BIIe (the "Gypsy Camp");
and there was the disenfestation autoclaves and ovens of BW 32 (the
"Sauna"). (Pressac, _Technique_, pp.53,63,65.) 

Unfortunately for Mr. Belling _none_ of these disinfestation installations
_existed_ on September 5, 1942 -the date these "Moslem" women were
murdered in Birkenau! (cf. Ibid.) 

Oops.

> They thought they were going to be killed, according to the pervasive rumours 
> throughout the camp.

Indeed. If Mr. Belling weren't such a lying scumbag Nazi apologist, he
would have the honesty to acknowledge that Kremer stated:

"...I could deduce from the behavior of these women that they realized
what was awaiting them. They begged the SS men to be allowwed to live,
they wept, but all of them were driven into the gas chamber and
gassed...." (Czech, _KL Auschwitz_, p.215fn.) 


> They were undoubtedly covered in excrement through no fault of their own, 
> therefore, Kremer uses the term "Anus Mundi".  

Er, no. If Mr. Belling weren't such a lying scumbag Nazi apologist, he
would have the honesty to acknowledge that Kremer stated:

"...Being and anatomist I had seen many horrors, had to do with corpses,
but what I saw then was not to be compared with anything seen ever before.
It was under the influence of these impressions that I noted in my diary,
under the date of September 5, 1942: 'The most horrible of all horrors.
_Hauptsturmfu"hrer_ Thilo - was right saying today to me that we were
located in the '_anus mundi_'. I had used this expression because I could
not imagine anything more sickening and more horrible." (Ibid.) 


> Also, I believe the exact quote should be:" They don;'t call Auschwitz 
> the camp of annihilation for nothing." Typhus and dysentery consumes.  
> They are wasting diseases.

Er, no. The passage from Kremer's diary in _KL Auschwitz_ (p.214) reads as
follows:



September 2,    Was present for first time at special action [49] at 
1942.           3 a.m. In comparison with it Dante's Inferno seems
                to be almost a comedy.[50] Auschwitz is justly called
                an extermination camp!



Footnote 50 leaves no doubt that Kramer was refering to homicidal gassings
when calling Auschwitz an extermination camp and _not_, as the lying
scumbag Nazi apologist Mr. Belling fallaciously suggests, "typhus and
dysentery." To whit: 

"50 Kremer was one of the defendants at the trial of the Auschwitz camp
garrison. The trial took place at the sittings of the Supreme National
Tribunal in Cracow in the time from November 24 till December 22, 1947.
During the interrogatory Kremer had been repeatedly questioned. It was
then that he proffered detailed information on the subject of the meaning
of some of the entries in his diary. Excerpts from his explinations are
quoted in this publication under the respective dates. In the official
record of the interrogatory of August 18, 1947, Cracow, Kramer stated as
fallows: 'On September 2, 1942 at 3 a.m. I was already assigned to take
part in the action of gassing people. These mass murders took place in
small cottages situated outside the Birkenau camp in a wood. These
cottages were called 'bunkers' (_Bunker) in the SS men's slang. All SS
surgeons, on duty in the camp, took turns to participate in the gassings,
which were called '_Sonderaktion_' (special action - Editor's note). My
part as surgeon at the gassing consisted in remaining in readiness near
the bunker. I was brought there in a car. I sat in front with the driver
and an SS hospital orderly (SDG) sat in the back of the car with an oxygen
apparatus to revive SS men employed at gassing, in case any of them should
succumb to the poisonous fumes. When the transport with people, who were
destined for gassing, arrived at the railway ramp, the SS officers
selected from among the persons fit to work and the rest - old people, all
children, women with children in arms and other persons not deemed fit to
work - were loaded upon lorries and driven to the gas-chambers. I used to
follow behind the transport till we reached the bunker. These people were
first driven to barracks where the victims undressed and then went nked to
the gas-chambers. Very often no incidents occurred, as the SS men kept
people quiet, maintaining that they were to bathe and be deloused. After
driving all of them into the gas-chamber the door was closed and an SS man
in a gas-mask threw the contents of a Cyclon tin through the opening in
the side wall. SHouting and screaming of the victims could be heard
through that opening and it was clear that they fought for their loves
(_Lebebskampf). These shouts were heard for a very short time. I should
say for some minutes but I am unable to give the exact span of time."
(Ibid. p.214fn) 

Given the Mr. Belling's above pathetic lies and scumbag Nazi aplogia, I
would suggest that he have a few words with his Nazi apologia provider,
Mr. Kennady, about "quality control" issues.... Poor Mr. Belling is
getting rooked. 


For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Dec 19 05:54:16 PST 1996
Article: 86644 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!winternet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Coming Soon to a Theatre Near You
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 04:05:05 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 49
Message-ID: 
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In article <599uh2$ku8$2@uhura.phoenix.net>,
"tavish@phoenix.net"@phoenix.net wrote:

> Mark Van Alstine wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > [Doc Slavish's drooling over his sadistic Nazi centerfold girl snipped]
> > 
> >
> > 
> > [Doc Slavish's brain fart snipped]
> > 
> > Considering the absolute stupidity of the current batch of Nazi-wannabes,
> > Doc Slavish included,  one can only surmise the de-Nazification programs
> > carried out in the 40's were quite successful. Only the dregs now remain.
> > Ol' Adolf must be rolling in his (unmarked) grave considering that his
> > banner is now being carried by a bunch of "useless eaters!"
> > 
> Mark your replies always indicate that you are a kind and considerate
> person. 

I try. 

> Will make sure your ball snippers are sharpened before you use
> them? 

On you? Nah. 

> You still give the same Kremlin Operative type answers as if you
> are reading an idiot card. 

Speaking of reading idiots, I sure had _you_ pegged from the get go! 

> Doc Tavish

Yes, it's true, this man has no dick.
       -Ghostbusters


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Dec 19 06:09:09 PST 1996
Article: 39480 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,alt.society.conservatism
Subject: Re: A Nazi replies to a War Criminal
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 13:40:58 -0700
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Message-ID: 
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In article <32b8ad38.29835868@news.srv.ualberta.ca>,
John.Morris@UAlberta.CA (John Morris) wrote:

> In <5979ii$tti$6@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
> wrote:
> 
> >In message <32b5961b.6477470@news.gte.net> - bull@halsey.mil (Halsey) writes:
> 
> >:>On Mon, 16 Dec 1996 09:53:57 GMT, John.Morris@UAlberta.CA (John
> >:>Morris) wrote:
> 
> >[deleted]
> 
> >:>>Time for another pop quiz. Well, not really a *pop* quiz anymore since
> >:>>Matt has never been able to answer these very simple questions.
> 
> >:>     Questions will not answer why you trust the Poles and Russians on
> >:>everything but the numbers.  
> 
> >In other words, Giwer realizes that Morris has him by the balls and tries to
> >change the subject.
> 
> EEEeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwhhhhhhh! How gross!

Yah. Especially 'cause pigs are so _sweaty_. 

EEEeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwhhhhhhh!

For those unfamiliar with the Porcine Prince:

The  gonadotoxic Giwer-swine (tm) is, as far as I can determine, a craven
anti-Semitic and racist troller whose only interest is in slandering Jews
and causing fights.  He has profusely and consistantly lied about what has
been said in exchanges (while accusing others of lying); refused to
document claims; pretended not to see posts which contain documented
refutation of his claims (even when they have been emailed to him);
engaged in actual libel; blatant and offensive anti-Semitism; Nazi
apologia, crude sexism, prolifically abused the 'Net, sent e-mailbombs,
and harrassed people via e-mail; forged posts; and has generally conducted
himself with such a complete lack of moral, intellectual, and factual
integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
respond to such a perverted animal.  For detailed and documented evidence
of this, please refer to:

http://www.nizkor.org/encouragements/giwer.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/griwer.matt/1996/giwer.1096

http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/antisemite
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/lies
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/c-word
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/fatbroad
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/email


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Dec 19 06:56:43 PST 1996
Article: 86716 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.society.conservatism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.usa,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: The Fuhrer's Gaze (Thank You, ourhero!)
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 12:16:57 -0700
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In article <59afvc$nnf$3@uhura.phoenix.net>,
"tavish@phoenix.net"@phoenix.net wrote:

[snipped]

> There's been one man that has caused more death, suffering, and misery
> than Adolf Hitler in recent times but his activities and beliefs are
> still held acceptable at most of major universities. You do not see his
> books banned nor any group trying to stop the discussion of this beast
> on the Internet but on account of acceptable brain washing by a group of
> un-American aliens most people believe Adolf Hitler is the
> quintessential bad guy. Not true. Not true. Many people still ooh and
> aah over his philosophies but he is considered off limits because it
> offends the (I am whispering this!) "the chosen ones." Come on folks
> don't let me down who is responsible for over twenty times more deaths
> than what is being argued about in the Holocaust Debate? Put on your
> thinking caps and don't let Doc Tavish down.

All those who think Mr. McTavish isn't playing with a full deck of cards
raise your hand....

All those who think Mr. McTavish has no dick can just snicker. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Dec 19 07:46:45 PST 1996
Article: 86733 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!node2.frontiernet.net!usenet.logical.net!dciteleport.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.poilitics.nationalism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.rel.christian
Subject: Re: Tavish wallowing in the sleeze of stele/smith
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 15:22:31 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 89
Message-ID: 
References: <32b39514.524259@news> <594q2d$ro5$1@uhura.phoenix.net> <32b6a439.491454508@news.zilker.net>
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In article <32b6a439.491454508@news.zilker.net>, mike@aimetering.com (Mike
Curtis) wrote:

> Doc Tavish <"tavish@phoenix.net"@phoenix.net> wrote:
> 
> [some text deleted] Whoever this is wishes to ask of Mr. Groff :
> 
> >Do you wish to deny:
> > That on page 44 (Attention all Christians) the following is not to be
> >read: "Political anti-Semitism began in Berlin with Adolf Stocker,
> >although Stocker did not actually begin with overt, explicit
> >anti-Semitism. In 1878, in Berlin, where he was court preacher, he
> >founded the Christian Social Worker's Party. The name itself suggested
> >the party's ant-Semitic bias.* The asterisk refers to the following
> >footnote: "The word Christian in a European organization's name
> >indicated its anti-Semitic character. The classic illustration is
> >Admiral Horthy's joyous embrace of the secretary of the American YMCA as
> >head of such an important anti-Semitic organization." PGROFF do wish to
> >deny that this self-explanatory text appears in the book being
> >discussed? 
>
> It has been a while since I've read _The War Against the Jews_ so I do
> not have the book immediately before me. If you wish to call me on
> anything I will take it down and reconstruct from the book and the
> sources she uses to contruct her statements. 
> 

Actually, the text reads as follows:



Political anti-Semitism began in Berlin with Adolf Sto"cker, though
Sto"cker did not actually begin with overt, explicit anti-Semitism. In
1878, in Berlin, where he was court preacher, he founded the Christian
Social Worker's Party. The name itself suggested the party's implicit
anti-Semitic bias.* His purposes were to provide a political
countervehicle to the Social Democratic party and to combat what he
regarded as the dangerous and debilitating secularization and
demoralization of society in the capital city. But the workers who came to
Christian Social political rallies came only to mock and heckle.



The footnote to this reads as follows:



* The word "Christian" in a European organization's name indicated its
anti-Semitic character. The classic illustration is Adimiral Horthy's
joyous embrace of the secretary of the American YMCA as the head of "such
an important anti-Semite organization." 



Source: Dawidowicz, _The War Against The Jews_ , p.34,34fn 
        ISBN 0-553-34532 (pbk.)

Considering Mr. McTavish's past misrepresntations of quotes, he is once
more being deceptive. The footnote, clearly indicates that Dr. Horthy, by
saying the YMCA was "such an important anti-Semite organization"
errouneously assumed that the "C" in YMCA denoted that it was and
anti-Semitic -as it would have in Europe (i.e Germany). 

> She is speaking of 1878 Europe and the studies she uses must show that
> groups with Chrisitian in their names tended to produce anti-Semitic
> material. Whatever this historian's biases, the good historian would
> tend to produce sources that would show her statements to be
> incorrect. Your silly header suggesting that Christians should not
> read the following is rather suggestive of your intentions to misuse
> and abuse a passage taken out of a book. That this passage does appear
> in the book is probably without doubt. How you are using it is very
> much in doubt.

There is little doubt in my mind as to Mr. McTavish intended for his
misquote to be used: 

Maliciously. 

[snip]

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Dec 19 10:17:33 PST 1996
Article: 86766 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.bc.net!news.insinc.net!ocean.netrover.com!amberjack.netrunner.net!news1.agis.net!agis!news.minn.net!visi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.religion.christian
Subject: Re: DIE NAZI SCUM!!!
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 04:01:57 -0700
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In article <599vik$le1$1@uhura.phoenix.net>,
"tavish@phoenix.net"@phoenix.net wrote:

> Mark you are so smart. 

I know.

> We dumbass goy jest ain't gots nuttin upstairs
> and thats why we have to kiss Jewboy's ass. 

I know.

> Will you throw a poor dog a few crumbs. 

No. I don't feed Nazi curs like you. 

> I love the way you describe people and post us to alt.kooks.

It's your kind of place....

> You beed so smart. 

I know.

> Why would Solomon say: "There is more hope for an
> ignorant person than one that is wise in his own eyes?" 

So you could feel better for being a such an anti-Semitic dumbass? 

> Why did Jesus tell of: "there was a sinner who prayed and said Lord have
mercy 
> on me a sinner and of another (a proud Pharisee that held the goy in derision
> that was beside him) Lord I am not as this sinner here, I tithe, etc..."

So you could feel better for being a such an anti-Semitic dumbass? 

[Mr. McTavish boorish anti-Semitic ranting snipped]

> Doc Tavish

Yes, it's true, this man has no dick.
       -Ghostbusters


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Dec 19 15:07:53 PST 1996
Article: 86800 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news.belwue.de!swidir.switch.ch!nntp.coast.net!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: kurt stele and his nuremberg "cite"
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 22:39:50 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 26
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In article <19961216125800.HAA09264@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
tutu101@aol.com (Tutu101) wrote:

> Mark with his "clever" little name-calling again.
> People stopped taking you seriously the day 
> after you were born.

Mr. Belling, my "cleverness" aside, one need only question _your_ need to
hide under another handle to see how serious _I_ am taken....  };-> 

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Dec 19 16:01:20 PST 1996
Article: 86816 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!node2.frontiernet.net!usenet.logical.net!dciteleport.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.religion.christian,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.fans.rush-limbaugh,alt.rush-limbaugh,alt.fans.g-gordon-liddy
Subject: Re: The Fuhrer's Gaze (Thank You, ourhero!)
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 02:03:21 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 21
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In article <59c8v4$1pa$1@uhura.phoenix.net>,
"tavish@phoenix.net"@phoenix.net wrote:

[Mr. McTavish's pyschotic ranting snipped]

> P.S. Mark you are not the yarmulke wearing guy running around with
> glazed eyes, spittle drooling mouth with apair of tin snips (aka ball
> snippers) in your hand are you? :->

Given Mr. McTavish's obsession with genital mutilation, I would suggest he
seek professional help for his sexual repression before he hurts himself. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Dec 19 19:11:53 PST 1996
Article: 86817 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Coming Soon to a Theatre Near You
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 12:36:43 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 55
Message-ID: 
References: <199612190235.SAA25920@mailmasher.com>
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In article <199612190235.SAA25920@mailmasher.com>, hadrian@mailmasher.com wrote:

> Mark Van Alstine wrote:
> >
> > > >
> > > > [Doc Slavish's drooling over his sadistic Nazi centerfold girl snipped]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Doc Slavish's brain fart snipped]
> > > >
> > > > Considering the absolute stupidity of the current batch of
> > > > Nazi-wannabes, Doc Slavish included,  one can only surmise the 
> > > > de-Nazification programs  carried out in the 40's were quite 
> > > > successful. Only the dregs now remain.
> > > > 
> > > > Ol' Adolf must be rolling in his (unmarked) grave considering that his
> > > > banner is now being carried by a bunch of "useless eaters!"
> > > >
> 
> Gee Mark, if all this is true, then you have only to explain the persistence
> with which you and your fellow travellers scour the Net 

Scour the Net? Wishful thinking, I'm afraid. I pretty much just read
alt.revisionism if I want see what lies Nazi scum are promulgating. 

> ...for their every critical remark...
 
You mean lies, right? 

> ...the mere hint of which seems to send you all into manic apoplexy
about your sacred Holocaust (tm) etc.  

Mere hint? Come now, good sir, don't be bashfull! You know as well as I
that the Nazi scum here don't merely "hint!" They are _most_ explicit in
their delueded ravings. 

> ...If those who ask impertinent questions are really so crazy... 

Impertinent questions? You mean lies, right? 

> ...why are you so clearly threatened by them?

Threatened by them? Well, only when they make _threats_. Sometimes.
Otherwise, I tend to laugh up my sleeve at them.... It helps pass the time
late at night when I'm tired of debugging code. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Dec 20 07:02:55 PST 1996
Article: 86993 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!uunet!in1.uu.net!169.132.11.200!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Air Photo Evidence" - Treblinka
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 04:38:06 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 39
Message-ID: 
References: <329ba952.15778030@199.0.216.204> <32b9491a.6640926@199.0.216.204>  <32ae194c.59938773@199.0.216.204> <329ba952.15778030@199.0.216.204> <32b9491a.6640926@199.0.216.204>  <32ae194c.59938773@199.0.216.204>  <32b459dd.8211617@news.gte.net> <5979gq$tti$3@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <5979gq$tti$3@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord
McFee) wrote:

[snip]

> I wonder how zeyde's wife and kids are?

Hopefully the anti-Semitic ol' bastard's wife told him to piss off so she
could  have a happy Hanukah with her daughter-in-law.... };-> 

The Moran (tm)  is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semite engaged in
blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi apologia, and Holocaust denial.
The Moran (tm) generally conducted himself with such a complete lack of
intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in
taking the time to read and respond.  For detailed and documented evidence
of this, please refer to:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom

But what else should one expect from a lying anti-Semite who holds wacko
beliefs, is intellectually depraved, hasn't the slightest clue regarding
Supreme Court decisions, or what constitutes a dud at the  box-office? For
evidence of this please see:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/1996/what-moran-believes.9607
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies/hilberg-out-of-context
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-menorah-faq
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-schindler-faq

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Dec 20 10:48:21 PST 1996
Article: 87018 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.rel.christian,alt.religion.islam,alt.conspiracy,alt.militias
Subject: Re: Nazi Atrocities?
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 01:57:08 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 18
Message-ID: 
References: <594sos$s6k$1@uhura.phoenix.net> <597b3d$b9j@news.nyu.edu> <597ikg$430@lex.zippo.com> <59aecc$nnf$1@uhura.phoenix.net>  <59c1mm$r7$1@uhura.phoenix.net>
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In article <59c1mm$r7$1@uhura.phoenix.net>,
"tavish@phoenix.net"@phoenix.net wrote:

[Mr. McTavish's psychotic delusions snipped]

> Doc Tavish Keeping his head low and his powder dry

More like keeping his head bobbing and his lips wet....

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Dec 20 11:00:22 PST 1996
Article: 122447 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!news.alfred.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.rel.christian,alt.discrimination,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Tavish wallowing in the sleeze of stele/smith
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 09:31:13 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 48
Message-ID: 
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In article <597hir$aci$1@uhura.phoenix.net>,
"tavish@phoenix.net"@phoenix.net wrote:

> > You poor dear. I didn't know this group was so powerful. Should I hide
> > under the bed?

So _that's_ where you keep your goat!  

> > >Nizkor also attempts to discredit me for using an assumed name saying I
> > >can't be honest if I won't use my real name.

Actually, Mr. McTavish, you discredit yourself by being dishonest. (And,
lest we forget, a hatemongering Jew-baiter and perverter of Holy
Scriptures.) Your intentional use misquotes is a case in point. 

[snip]

> If I must then I will make JPEG graphic image files of the book and past
> them every day and let it be like an old movie serial. 

Please do, Mr. McTavish. You can start with page 34 of Dawidowicz's _The
War Against The Jews_. 

Whaddya say, Mr. McTavish? Care to back up that sewer-mouth of your's or,
like denier after denier has done in this forumn, run away like a whipped
cur? 

> I repeat again I leave this with the people to decide.

They did. They are disgusted with you, so sou can take a hike now, Nazi
goatboy. Nobody but psychotic Jew-bashing Nazis cultist would buy into
your psychotic Jew-bashing delusions. 

> Doc Tavish

Yes, it's true, this man has no dick.
       -Ghostbusters


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Dec 20 15:40:29 PST 1996
Article: 87057 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!node2.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ordinary v Mainstream Auschwitz 4,000,000 Deniers - Revised
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 02:22:19 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 56
Message-ID: 
References: <32bbbf9d.48304779@199.0.216.204> <59d6dg$1c8@news.enter.net> <32c2a9b5.6035049@199.0.216.204>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32c2a9b5.6035049@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
wrote:

> >>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
> >
> >  
> >>  Mr.Browosky states, "this figure had already been challenged by
> >>  serious historians as early as the 1960s", but then this of course
> >>  would be the exception and not the rule. The facts are, a actual
> >>  record is posted from time to time shows the rule and Mr.Browosky and
> >>  the rest of the Holocaust dependents just claim it ain't so. The
> >>  record stands at about 30 to 1. Thirty examples for the higher Jewish
> >>  numbers and one example (Reitlinger) for the lower. If all examples
> >>  were known it would be more like 100s to 1 or 2.
> >
> > Odd, isn't it that you cannot post a single historian of the Holocaust 
> > that accepts the number of 4,000,000 Jews murdered at Auschwitz.
> >
> >       --YFE
> 
>         See "BEHOLD THE LIE".

And then visit: 

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies/behold-the-liar


The Moran (tm)  is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semite engaged in
blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi apologia, and Holocaust denial.
The Moran (tm) generally conducted himself with such a complete lack of
intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in
taking the time to read and respond.  For detailed and documented evidence
of this, please refer to:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom

But what else should one expect from a lying anti-Semite who holds wacko
beliefs, is intellectually depraved, hasn't the slightest clue regarding
Supreme Court decisions, or what constitutes a dud at the  box-office? For
evidence of this please see:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/1996/what-moran-believes.9607
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies/hilberg-out-of-context
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-menorah-faq
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-schindler-faq

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Dec 20 17:44:28 PST 1996
Article: 87085 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Crematorium logistics
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 04:22:42 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 24
Message-ID: 
References: <32b2412f.4614359@199.0.216.204> <32bbc2f0.5456469@199.0.216.204> <32B29F1A.CD7@rio.com><32b2412f.4614359@199.0.216.204> <32bbc2f0.5456469@199.0.216.204> <32B29F1A.CD7@rio.com> <32b457a2.7640397@news.gte.net> <5956fp$ou6$6@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <59eda2$aej$3@uhura.phoenix.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <59eda2$aej$3@uhura.phoenix.net>,
"tavish@phoenix.net"@phoenix.net wrote:

> Gordski please wipe the spittle from your chin and try for once to
> submit something of substance-please!

Speaking of submitting something of substance, when are you goinf to say
something substantial enough to merit a serus reply, eh, Nazi goatboy? 

> Doc Tavish

Yes, it's true, this man has no dick.
       -Ghostbusters


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Dec 20 22:01:19 PST 1996
Article: 87105 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!news.bconnex.net!news.ac.net!pacifier!news.rain.net!nntp.iccom.com!news.he.net!news.enteract.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Now Playing....Irma Grese
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 01:45:19 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 189
Message-ID: 
References: <593e5s$o8e@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi148.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <593e5s$o8e@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

[snip]

> In the case of Irma Grese, one should simply reflect on the fact that 
> it is not easy to manage 20-30,000 inmates.  Auschwitz was a detention 
> center, where criminals were freely interspersed among those simply being 
> held in “protective custody”.  

Mr. Belling is being quite disingenuous here in calling Auschwitz a
"detention center." Auschwitz I and III (Monowitz) were slave labor camps.
Auschwitz-II Birkenau was unquestionably an extermination camp. The
prisoners held there in "protective custody" were either slated for
extermination from being worked to death; through privation, starvation,
and disease; and/or in the gas chambers at Birkenau. 

[Mr. Belling's Nazi apologia snipped]

> Grese’s duties at Auschwitz varied.  Most of her work was rather benign, 
> such as sorting through parcels and overseeing construction projects. 
> However, from May until December, 1944, Grese was appointed senior 
> Aufseherin for Compound “C”, which turned out to be the eventual cause 
> of her undoing. There she had to oversee 20-30,000 Hungarian Jewesses, all 
> held in protective custody. The huge influx of detainees created problems 
> which were addressed with difficulty by the relatively young and 
> inexperienced Grese. Most of the problems centered around the distribution
> of food.... 

The fallacy of Mr. Belling's Nazi apologia is exposed by the following
excerpt from ex-prisoner Olga Lengyel's _Five Chimneys_ (pp.103-104):

"...At that time the 'selections' were made by the chief camp
directresses, Hasse and Irma Griese. On Mondays, Wednesdays, and
Saturdays, the roll call lasted from dawn until the end of the afternoon,
when they had their full quota of victims.

"When these two women appeared at the camp entrance, the internees, who
already knew what top expect, became panic stricken. The beautiful Irma
Griese advanced toward the prisoners with a swinging gait, her hips
swaying, and the eyes of 40,000 wretched women, mute and motionless, upon
her. She was of medium height, elegantly dressed, with every hair in
place. The mortal terror which her mere presence inspired visibly pleased
her. For this twenty-two-year-old girl was completely without pity. With a
sure hand she chose her victims, not only from the healthy but from the
sick, the feeble, and the incapacitated. Those who, despite their hunger
and toture, still showed a glimmer of their former physical beauty were
the first to be taken. They were Irma Griese's special targets. 

"During the 'selections' the 'blonde Angel of Belsen,' as she was later to
be called by the press, made liberal use of her whip. She slashed
everywhere she wished, and we endured as well as we could. Our shrieks of
pain and our spurts of blood made her smile. What faultless, peraly teeth
she had!

"One day in June, 1944, 315 'selected' women were pushed together into a
washroom. In the big hall the unfortunate ones had already been kicked and
whipped. Then Irma Griese commanded the S.S. guards to nail the door shut.
As simple as that.


> ...The overcrowding also led to sanitation problems, which Grese was 
> scarcely capable of handling.  The detainees themselves helped to create 
> many of the problem situations, as at Belsen, where they urinated and 
> defecated whenever and wherever the urge struck them.  They also filled the 
> latrines and compound with trash and filth, so much so that the latrines 
> eventually ceased to function.  

The mendacious Nazi apologia of Mr. Belling is once again exposed by the
following excerpt from Deborah Dwork's and Robert Jan Van Pelt's
_Auscwhitz: 1270 to the present_ (p.268) :

"The design of the wash barracks and the privies was, in fact, lethal....
Architects and bureucrats are to blame: the design was inadequate, and not
enough material and financial resources were allocated for the camp's
construction. Whether the architects designed to degrade the prisoner's or
not, the result was the same: with the latrines submerged in excrement,
with very little water to be had at very few points, and with mud ev
erywhere, what remained was an inmate population without the means to
preserve any outward sign of human dignity. As Des Pres asked, 'How much
self-esteem can one maintain, how readily can one respond to the needs of
another, if both stink, if both are caked with mud and feces?'

"Were the architects simply incompetent? The 'privy' meant to serve 7,000
inmates was a shed with one concrete open sewer serviced by far too little
water, no seats, no 'shame walls' for provacy, and one long bean as a back
support. The result was a catastrophe. Gisella Perl, an inmate of BA I
after it had become the women's camp at Birkenau, succintly described the
situation the prisoners faced. 'There was one latrine for thirty to
thirty-two thousand women and we were permitted to use it only at certain
hours of the day. We stood in line to get in to this tiny building,
knee-deep in human excrement. As we all suffered from dsyentery, we could
rarely wait until our turn came, and soiled our ragged clothes, which
never came off out bodies, thus adding to the horror of our existance by
the terrible smell which surrounded us like a cloud.' The construction
itself was an affronty. 'The latrine consisted of a deep ditch with planks
thrown across it at certain intervals. We squatted on these planks like
birds perched on a telegraph wire, so close together that we could not
help soiling one another.'  Ertl and Bischoff's [the architects of KL
Auschwitz -MV] structure was an assault and a biological disaster.

To blame the _victims_ of this Nazi "biological disaster," and _not_ the
Nazi perpetrators, in attempting to white-wash the crimes of Irma Griese,
is simply malicious hypocrisy of the highest order on Mr. Belling's part. 

> This would explain the pervasive stench around Auschwitz and another 
> reason why it was referred to as “Anus Mundi”.

Again, the maliciousness of Mr. Belling's dishonesty comes to the
forefront with this puerile lie. The reference to Auschwitz being the
"anus mundi" had no relation whatsoever as to "the pervasive stench around
Auschwitz," as can be seen by the context it was used in by its
originator, Joseph Kremer, in his diary (Czech, _KL Auschwitz_, p.215.):



September 5,    This noon was present at a special action in the 
1942.           women's camp [51] ("Moslems"[52]) - the most horrible
                of all horrors. _Hschf. Thilo,[53] military surgeon, is 
                right when he said today to me we were located
                here in "_anus mundi_" [anus of the world]. In the 
                evening at about 8 p.m another special action
                with a draft from Holland.[54] Men compete to
                take part in such actions as they get additional 
                rations then - 1/5 litre vodka, 5 cigarettes, 100
                grammes of sausage and bread. Today and tomor-
                row (Sunday) on duty.



"51 A selection took place that day in the women's camp at Birkenau and
its result was the killing in gas chambers of about 800 women prisoners.
In the formal record of the interrogatory of July 18, 1947, Cracow, Kremer
explained this entry as follws: 'Particularly unpleasant had been the
action of gassing emaciated women from the women;s camp. Such individuals
were generally called '_Muselma"nner_' ('_Moslems_'). I remember taking
part in the gassing of such women in daylight. I am unable to state how
numerous that group has been. WHen I came to the bunker they sat clothed
on the ground. As the clothes were in fact worn out camp clothes they were
not let into the undressing barracks but undressed in the open. I could
deduce from the behavior of these women that they realized what was
awaiting them. They begged the SS men to be allowed to live, they wept,
but all of them were to the gas chamber and gassed. Being an anatomist I
had seen many horrors, had to do with corpses, but what I then saw was not
to be compared with anything seen ever before. It was under the influence
of these impressions that I had noted in my diary, under the date
September 5, 1942, 'The most horrible all horrors, _Hauptsturmfu"hrer_
Thilo - was right saying today to me that we were located here in the
'_anus mundi_'. I had used this expression becuase I could not imagine
anything more sickening and more horrible.'" (Ibid. p.215fn.) 

[Mr. Belling's Nazi apologia snipped]

> Summing up, it is clear that Irma Grese did not deserve the death
>  penalty, as the prosecution failed to live up to the burden of proof 
> which would be required in any impartial court today.  

What is clear is that Mr. Belling has offered a distorted and fallacious
version of Irma Grese, the "blonde Angel of Belsen," in order to
white-wash her crimes. What is equally clear is that Irma Grese was a
torturer and assulter of prisoners was sentanced to death for her sadism
and cruelty against the victims of Nazi mass murder and brutality. Victims
who she helped to select and brutalize. 

[Mr. Belling's Nazi apologia snipped]

In closing yet another sad chapter on Mr. Belling's lying scumbag Nazi
apologia, I would note that not _once_ did Mr. Belling cite a source
reference in support for his innendo and lies. One cannot but speculate
that Mr. Belling's story about the sadistic "blonde Angel of Belsen" is
nothing more a figment of his puerile imagination and is yet another of
his Nazi hero-worshipping fantasies. 

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Dec 20 22:01:20 PST 1996
Article: 87114 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'Let them die, why should you care?'
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 06:02:59 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 141
Message-ID: 
References:  <32BB14C8.76D3@phoenix.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32BB14C8.76D3@phoenix.net>, tavish@phoenix.net wrote:

> Daniel Keren wrote:
> > 
> > Testimony of Herta Ehlert, a member of the SS unit at Belsen (p. 709):
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > The conditions in Belsen were a shame and a disgrace. I consider
> > that the people chiefly responsible were Kramer the Kommandant,
> > Dr. Horstmann, Untersturmfuehrer Klipp, who was for some time
> > Kramer's second in command, and Haupsturfuehrer Vogler, who
> > worked in Kramer's office and was responsible for food supply.
> > I say that Kramer was responsible for the conditions, among
> > other reasons, because on one occasion when I complained of the
> > increasing death rate to Kramer he replied, "let them die, why
> > should you care?".
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -Danny Keren.
> 
> Honest question and I am not trying to be a "wise guy" but what were the
> standards of nutrition for the civilians outside the camps?

Given that this appears to be a _real_ question (!) from Mr. McTavish (his
first, I believe), it deserves a serious response. If Kremer's sporadic
comments in his diary are any measure to go by, probably better than what
the diet of the average Englishman's was for much of the war. To whit: 

May 1, 1943:



[...] 

Gerda in Stelberg had baked a delicious plum cake, we also had ham and
fresh eggs. Some photos were taken. Towards the evening Anna, Otto, and
myself went to see Maria in Oberfeld, where we were met by Fritz and the
children. Here we had the special Berg dish: fried cakes with slices of
bacon and cooked rice. Maria let me finally have a piece of cured bacon to
take with me.

[...}



February 21, 1945:



There has been plenty of fish to be bought everywhere in Mu"nster since
last week. I queued today at Hambrock for smoked cod for 6 mark and I ate
it all in one day. We also have fresh cod, fish marinade and fish paste
everywhere, so that one gets rather tired of it.[...]



March 31, 1945:



There was nothing to be had in the market today. I got only one bottle of
apple-juice at Niemer's, _Salstrasse_. There were long queues in front of
the baker's and butcher's. We have no electricity and the maddest rumors
are rampant. People sayt the enemy has gone round Mu"nster and has already
passed the Reihne and Greven, marching on. [...] In the afternoon people
came from _Hittorfstrasse_ with whole joints of beef, That meat was given
free at Vennemann's down there in _Hammerstrasse_. It was frozen meat for
the front which could no more be sent on. It was quite a sight to see, for
instance, men and women plodding along with a whole front joint of beef
slung across their bicycles. The old butcher, Hesing, vouched that the
meat was perfect. [...] Mrs. Glaser came shortly after from the Konerings
and brought vegatables and three bottle of liquor, the latter she had got
free at the Ho"lscher distillery, located in the direction of Nienberge.
[...] At last I was able to get the tinned meat I wanted (a layer of lard
on top and pork underneath), Each person got 4 tins at 1'60 mark a tin,
for household coupon. I therefore got 8 heavy tins for myself and for Mrs
Glaser and had great difficulty in cramming them into my bag. To get them
I had stood about circa 2 hours in the wintry cold.[...] Mrs Glaser was
already waiting for me to get the coupons and left at once, although night
was setting in, to hurry to Scheitzer's in )Hu"ferstrasse_ where rice was
being distributed. Not lobg after she returned with 4 pounds of the best
rice per person. As she had got plenty of full-cream milk at Konering's
because milk delivery had been stopped, we immediately set tp prepare a
delicious Easter rice pudding. The neighbors finally came with plenty of
beef which had been distributed before and so at Eastertide 1945 nobody in
fact had to endure humger in Mu"nster. It was a condemmed man's last meal
, because the enemy, said to have taken positions in Albachten, Neinberge,
and Roxel, continued with the thundering of heavy guns in a frightful way.
Particularly after 10 p.m. there seemed to be heavy fighting going on in
the south-western direction.

[...]



April 1, 1945:



[...] We had a magnificent dinner today. Delicious beef broth with
noodles, beans with bacon, potatoes, apple-sauce and red whortleberries.
For breakfast we had colf ham, bread and butter with real coffee and
plenty of whole milk. [...] At 4 p.m. the bell rang and Mrs. Hessing, who
lives across the street, came to tell us hurriedlyu that all sorts of fine
things could be had free from the magazine of the military barracks in the
_UnivSportplatz_, such as peas, biscuits, noodles, etc. [...] We had
managed to take home on my own and Mrs. Glaser's bicycles our supplies
without any loss. There was about 20 pounds of shelled yellow peas, 20
pounds of green peas, 8 pounds of noodles and circa 70 pounds of biscuits
and crackers, a supply which could almost last for years. 



Source: Czech, _KL Auschwitz_, pp.239,264,265-270.

The above is interesting in light of the fact that even though the food
situation in Mu"nster (which was cut-off by the Allied [i.e. U.S.]
advance) appeared not to be critical and people weren't starving to death,
supplies were freely distributed from military stores. Yet at
Bergen-Belsen, as we have seen, desperately needed rations were denied by
Kramer to the thousands of prisoners ostensibly held in "protective
custody" there. Prisoners who were starving, or had already starved, to
death even though the nearby Panzergrenadier School held enough stores to
help allieviate their condition (cf. Reitlinger, _SS: alibi of a nation_,
p.425.)  

And what was Kremer's excuse? That he had no authority to requistion
supoplies from the Panzergrenadier School and thereofre didn't even bother
to _ask_ if food could be spared to feed the starving proisoners! But then
Kramer _also_ had  said in regard to his starving charges: "let them die,
why should you care?"

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Dec 21 11:19:00 PST 1996
Article: 87127 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Lies by Nizkor
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 10:53:06 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 123
Message-ID: 
References: <32B394D8.6E9B@ix.netcom.com> <32b811f1.1112491@news.albany.net>  <32B4B7D9.3C93@ix.netcom.com>  <59d063$8kd@animal.blarg.net> <32BB5383.432F@phoenix.net>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:426866 alt.politics.nationalism.white:39809 alt.revisionism:87127

In article <32BB5383.432F@phoenix.net>, tavish@phoenix.net wrote:

> Margot Sheehan wrote:
> > 
> > FJ!! (fj@spdcc.com) wrote:
> > : In article <32B4B7D9.3C93@ix.netcom.com>,
> > : Hambone   wrote:
> > : >This is another tactic of theirs....the "homophobia" bit... it also
> > : >amuses me. There are some stock approaches they constantly fall back on,
> > 
> > : Ok, so you don't know what the word "homophobia" means. I don't
> > : like it anyway, as so many people confuse it like you do. I preferr
> > : the much more descriptive "homohatred" for what you spout.
> > 
> > :                                                       FJ!!
> > 
> > Actually the correct term would be 'homopathy,' no? Let's use the word
> > homopathy from now on!
> > 
> > MS
> > 
> > --
> > Margot Sheehan
> > 
> > margot@blarg.net
> 
> Just read my posting called Nizkook Lies! and you will see that they
> labeled me a ranting jew-hating, wild-eyed homophobe kook for quoting
> New Testament scripture. 

Er, no. The Nazi bumboy is labelled "a ranting jew-hating, wild-eyed
homophobe kook" because he wrote the following:

"I was rferring to what a certain kike prefers to eat yid! Musch love
toward you chosen ones! I will not apologize any more to you bastards."

"The Talmud says that Jesus is boiling in hot semen."

"If the Yids do not allow muslims in their army they therefore must be
muslimphobes."

"After reading all of the "wit" of the remaining two tribes, the gentiles
wish the other two would get lost too!"

"And all that reading to find out that the Pharisees say that Jesus is
being slowly simmered in hot semen."

"I will soon reveal why I am a 'Nazi Sympathizer' please stay tuned to the
newsgroups posted above and see the Doctor give the cure to the Jewish
Question."

"The anti-Christ Jews are always branding others as anti-Semites that
 disagree  with them- hence my use of anti-Christ."

"Doc Tavish fighting godless atheistic Judaized Bolshevism
on the home front."

"My sister not only deals in green stamps but also lives in a trailer
park- another thing looked down upon as being gauchely goyish by the
Jewish plague."

"Jews are the ultimate Holocaust deniers. The Jews wish to brand as
anti-semites who question "their" facts about the "Middle European"
Holocaust. Now I wish to call them anti-Christs because they deny the
"Asiatic" Holocaust. I am speaking of the Bolshevik Revolution that was
inspired, instigated, and financed by jewry from New York City's Lower
East side known as the Bowery. "

"You only confirm what gentiles have known all along- that the Jewboys
make geat comedians."

"Here is a dity for you; "Er macht mir shvartzeh chassenah." It is a
Yiddish phrase for what you are to me. A Nazi knowing Yiddish? Yes
Gunther, it must be the bagels he's eating and the Mogen David vine he's
been drrrinking."

"You appear to be agreeing that Jews have done things to earn thetreatment
they have received over the centuries.  Honesty is thebeginning of
wisdom."

"Those bodies look as if they were imported from the 'Holocaust' you
anti-Christs deny about millions of Christians being slaughtered by Jewish
Marxism!"

"Christians should be able to see what some degenerate Pharisee wrote
about Jesus. Pharisees haven't gone away they have only changed styles
of clothing and their name. They still are Christ Deniers and enemies
today of his followers."

"Jews can be born here but they still owe their allegiance to Israel."

"Only the Jews in Congress are lobbying for Israeli interests and they are
abusing their positions- they should be tagged as lobbyists. No other
ancestral national group in Congress shows this dual loyalty."

"I still stand by my assertion that Jews have control of Hollywood and its
contents."

"No we will not have to apply for a dual citizenship because the Hebes are
going to make the U.S.A. their second state so they can claim to be the
United Staes of Israel.

"I had to make this correction so as to not give the 'stone throwers and
Christ killers' any ammo in their persuits of anyone who does not agree
with them."

"These 'chosen ones' are still the same snakes anf liars as they were 19
cenuries ago."

And this degenerate excuse for a baboon claims he _doesn't_ hate Jews? 

Amazing. 


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Dec 21 11:19:00 PST 1996
Article: 87139 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!node2.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.stealth.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'Let them die, why should you care?'
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 10:45:02 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 141
Message-ID: 
References:  <32BB14C8.76D3@phoenix.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32BB14C8.76D3@phoenix.net>, tavish@phoenix.net wrote:

> Daniel Keren wrote:
> > 
> > Testimony of Herta Ehlert, a member of the SS unit at Belsen (p. 709):
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > The conditions in Belsen were a shame and a disgrace. I consider
> > that the people chiefly responsible were Kramer the Kommandant,
> > Dr. Horstmann, Untersturmfuehrer Klipp, who was for some time
> > Kramer's second in command, and Haupsturfuehrer Vogler, who
> > worked in Kramer's office and was responsible for food supply.
> > I say that Kramer was responsible for the conditions, among
> > other reasons, because on one occasion when I complained of the
> > increasing death rate to Kramer he replied, "let them die, why
> > should you care?".
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -Danny Keren.
> 
> Honest question and I am not trying to be a "wise guy" but what were the
> standards of nutrition for the civilians outside the camps?

Given that this appears to be a _real_ question (!) from Mr. McTavish (his
first, I believe), it deserves a serious response. If Kremer's sporadic
comments in his diary are any measure to go by, probably better than what
the diet of the average Englishman's was for much of the war. To whit: 

May 1, 1943:



[...] 

Gerda in Stelberg had baked a delicious plum cake, we also had ham and
fresh eggs. Some photos were taken. Towards the evening Anna, Otto, and
myself went to see Maria in Oberfeld, where we were met by Fritz and the
children. Here we had the special Berg dish: fried cakes with slices of
bacon and cooked rice. Maria let me finally have a piece of cured bacon to
take with me.

[...}



February 21, 1945:



There has been plenty of fish to be bought everywhere in Mu"nster since
last week. I queued today at Hambrock for smoked cod for 6 mark and I ate
it all in one day. We also have fresh cod, fish marinade and fish paste
everywhere, so that one gets rather tired of it.[...]



March 31, 1945:



There was nothing to be had in the market today. I got only one bottle of
apple-juice at Niemer's, _Salstrasse_. There were long queues in front of
the baker's and butcher's. We have no electricity and the maddest rumors
are rampant. People sayt the enemy has gone round Mu"nster and has already
passed the Reihne and Greven, marching on. [...] In the afternoon people
came from _Hittorfstrasse_ with whole joints of beef, That meat was given
free at Vennemann's down there in _Hammerstrasse_. It was frozen meat for
the front which could no more be sent on. It was quite a sight to see, for
instance, men and women plodding along with a whole front joint of beef
slung across their bicycles. The old butcher, Hesing, vouched that the
meat was perfect. [...] Mrs. Glaser came shortly after from the Konerings
and brought vegatables and three bottle of liquor, the latter she had got
free at the Ho"lscher distillery, located in the direction of Nienberge.
[...] At last I was able to get the tinned meat I wanted (a layer of lard
on top and pork underneath), Each person got 4 tins at 1'60 mark a tin,
for household coupon. I therefore got 8 heavy tins for myself and for Mrs
Glaser and had great difficulty in cramming them into my bag. To get them
I had stood about circa 2 hours in the wintry cold.[...] Mrs Glaser was
already waiting for me to get the coupons and left at once, although night
was setting in, to hurry to Scheitzer's in _Hu"ferstrasse_ where rice was
being distributed. Not long after she returned with 4 pounds of the best
rice per person. As she had got plenty of full-cream milk at Konering's
because milk delivery had been stopped, we immediately set to prepare a
delicious Easter rice pudding. The neighbors finally came with plenty of
beef which had been distributed before and so at Eastertide 1945 nobody in
fact had to endure hunger in Mu"nster. It was a condemmed man's last meal,
because the enemy, said to have taken positions in Albachten, Neinberge,
and Roxel, continued with the thundering of heavy guns in a frightful way.
Particularly after 10 p.m. there seemed to be heavy fighting going on in
the south-western direction.

[...]



April 1, 1945:



[...] We had a magnificent dinner today. Delicious beef broth with
noodles, beans with bacon, potatoes, apple-sauce and red whortleberries.
For breakfast we had colf ham, bread and butter with real coffee and
plenty of whole milk. [...] At 4 p.m. the bell rang and Mrs. Hessing, who
lives across the street, came to tell us hurriedlyu that all sorts of fine
things could be had free from the magazine of the military barracks in the
_UnivSportplatz_, such as peas, biscuits, noodles, etc. [...] We had
managed to take home on my own and Mrs. Glaser's bicycles our supplies
without any loss. There was about 20 pounds of shelled yellow peas, 20
pounds of green peas, 8 pounds of noodles and circa 70 pounds of biscuits
and crackers, a supply which could almost last for years. 



Source: Czech, _KL Auschwitz_, pp.239,264,265-270.

The above is interesting in light of the fact that even though the food
situation in Mu"nster, which was cut-off by the Allied (i.e. U.S.)
advance, appeared not to be critical. People _weren't_ starving to death
and yet supplies were freely distributed from military stores. Yet at
Bergen-Belsen, as we have seen, desperately needed rations were denied by
Kramer to the thousands of prisoners ostensibly held in "protective
custody" there. Prisoners who were starving, or had already starved, to
death even though the nearby Panzergrenadier School held enough stores to
help allieviate their condition (cf. Reitlinger, _SS: alibi of a nation_,
p.425.)  

And what was Kramer's excuse? That he had no authority to requisition
supplies from the nearby Panzergrenadier School and therefore didn't even
bother to _ask_ if food could be spared to feed the starving prisoners!
But then Kramer _also_ had  said in regard to his starving charges: "let
them die, why should you care?"

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Dec 21 11:19:01 PST 1996
Article: 87150 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!news.alfred.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Coming Soon to a Theatre Near You
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 05:01:08 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 38
Message-ID: 
References:  <595sm4$sof@juliana.sprynet.com> <597bb7$8dd$12@uhura.phoenix.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi143.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <597bb7$8dd$12@uhura.phoenix.net>,
"tavish@phoenix.net"@phoenix.net wrote:

[Doc Slavish's drooling over his sadistic Nazi centerfold girl snipped]

> How come many of the "holocaust" pictures which are well made as a rule show 
> many corpses without tatoos? Tattoos were uniformly placed so I ask again why 
> do a lot of bodies in the "Holocaust" pictures not have tatoos
especially when 
> the Germans were so adamant about their record keeping? 

Doc Slavish's profound ignorance raises its ugly head once again. Tsk tsk.
Obviously, unbeknownst to the our "esteemed" anti-Semite and crank, only
those who were actually _registered_ in the concentration camps were
tatooed with a number. Those who were sent to the extermination camps and
gassed on arrival, or those killed in the field by the Einsatgruppen, were
never registered in a concentration camp. Ergo, they never recieved a
tatoo. 

[Doc Slavish's brain fart snipped]

Considering the absolute stupidity of the current batch of Nazi-wannabes,
Doc Slavish included,  one can only surmise the de-Nazification programs
carried out in the 40's were quite successful. Only the dregs now remain.
Ol' Adolf must be rolling in his (unmarked) grave considering that his
banner is now being carried by a bunch of "useless eaters!" 

Oh, the irony!

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Dec 21 11:19:02 PST 1996
Article: 87162 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sgi.com!swrinde!sdd.hp.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BEHOLD THE LIE
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 12:10:03 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 69
Message-ID: 
References: <32bd9cfd.1815600@199.0.216.204> <32cc9f4c.2406593@199.0.216.204> <32b8048a.414354@199.0.216.204>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32b8048a.414354@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

> No doubt there are many more examples out there in books and
> publications that would show the lie. 

Document this and present it or retract your statement.

> As it stands now, there are probably 30 or so examples to show that the 
> Simon Wiesenthal Center commits the evil deed of claiming the old number 
> never had any thing to do with the overall number of 6,000,000 Jews alleged
> to have been exterminated by the Germans. 

Document this and present it or retract your statement.

> And now it looks like it has become a part of the  'National Standards
for Holocausts in Schools' (NSHS) where the teachers will be required to
teach the big lie on top of the overall Holocaust lie. Our little minds
going off to school where the teachers have to teach it and the little
minds will have to believe it.

Document this and present it or retract your statement.

Of course, the Moran(tm) will not do so as he _cannot_ do so. He is simply
breaking intellectual wind here and polluting the ether with his
mendacious falsehoods. In other words, business as usual for the immoral
Moran(tm). 

> So much for the United States of America. So much for all the
> lives lost that resulted in the grandest of all documents, The
> Constitution of the United States and The Bill of Rights.

So much for the Moran(tm): liar, anti-Semite, and Nazi apologist. And all
around pathetic loser, of course.

The Moran (tm)  is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semite engaged in
blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi apologia, and Holocaust denial.
The Moran (tm) generally conducted himself with such a complete lack of
intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in
taking the time to read and respond.  For detailed and documented evidence
of this, please refer to:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom

But what else should one expect from a lying anti-Semite who holds wacko
beliefs, is intellectually depraved, hasn't the slightest clue regarding
Supreme Court decisions, or what constitutes a dud at the  box-office? For
evidence of this please see:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/1996/what-moran-believes.9607
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies/hilberg-out-of-context
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-menorah-faq
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-schindler-faq

For evidence of Mr. Raven's scurrilous Nazi apologia and lies, please visit: 


http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/r/raven.greg
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/r/raven.greg/deny-holo 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Dec 21 11:19:03 PST 1996
Article: 87196 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Belling sees trap, dives in
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 16:13:12 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 36
Message-ID: 
References: <597llt$195k$7@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <59g5tj$30v@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <59g5tj$30v@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) writes:
> 
> 
> >  
> >  [end quote]
> >  
> >  
> >  --
> >  Gord McFee
> >  I'll write no line before its time
> >  
> >  
> >>>>
> Yawn.  It's getting old, Gord.  It really is.--rb

Not nearly as old as that dead rodent up your butt, Mr. Belling.....

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Dec 21 11:19:04 PST 1996
Article: 87198 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.exodus.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Clearing the air about Posen
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 16:11:20 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 50
Message-ID: 
References:  <59g7ul$30v@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <59g7ul$30v@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
> 
> 
> >  
> >  > >  I merely comment that the remarks are really insignificant
> >  > >and do not lend support to your claims that Jews were being gassed.
> >  > 
> >  > Sour grapes.
> >  
> >  Or, considering the trck record of Mr. "pimple on a duck's butt,"
> >  delusions of grandeur. 
> >  
> >  > There's so much hand waving going on here that I must take my leave.
> >  
> >  Indeed! Considering all the furious hand-waving by Mr. Belling, it might
> >  cause one to assume that a rodent crawled up his ass and died.... 
> 
> 
> >  Mark
> 
> 
> >  
> >>>>
> Thanks for the ammuntion, Mark.  Your name calling does serve a purpose
> other than showing you to be a hateful asshole.  I am keeping track of
all of it.

Oooh, I'm just quaking in my boots over that. It still doesn't change the
fact one iota that the only product of your "mental" activities are
miasmic Nazi brain farts....

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Dec 21 11:19:04 PST 1996
Article: 87209 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!news-out.internetmci.com!dciteleport.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Nazi discusses war crimes (And response to Chuck)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 14:04:28 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 58
Message-ID: 
References: <59b9dv$9tu@morgana.netcom.net.uk> <59d1sd$1c8@news.enter.net> <32bbb87d.105140255@news.micron.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32bbb87d.105140255@news.micron.net>, kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

> On 20 Dec 1996 03:41:01 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
> 
> >>   amcl@netcomuk.co.uk (Angus M. McLellan) writes:
> >>  In article <32b737e5.89408064@news.micron.net>
> >>  kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt Stele/Brian Smith) "willettsed":
> >>  >>>The US was destroying German vessels on the high seas before 1939 to
> >>  >>>provoke Hitler into a war.
> >
> >>  >>Uh, no.  The UK was destroying German vessels with US hardware, but
> >>  >>this was *after* the war began.
> >  
> >>  >Wrong.  
> >  
> >>  Is another revisionist triumph in the offing ? The USA sinking German
> >>  shipping pre-1939 ? Please, do tell us more.
> >       Just more wind from an idiot who thinks Rueben James was a trumpet 
> >player with some big band or other.
> >
> >       --YFE
> 
> Are you saying the U.S. Navy didn't sink German ships in 1939
> Yalie-poo?   What will it be, shyster:  yes or no?   

No. 

Now, would Mr. Smith care to wager a small sum, say $100, in regard to his
claim that "the US was destroying German vessels on the high seas before
1939 to provoke Hitler into a war?"

I say that Mr. Smith, as usual, is dribbling shit down his chin and cannot
cite _one_ authoritative source to support his claim that the U.S. was
sinking ships under the flag of Nazi Germany _prior_ to 1939. Will Mr.
Smith rise to this challenge? Hmmm? 

Or will our brave Nazi, knowing he lied, tuck his tail and run away once more? 

What will it be, lying scumbag Nazi apologist:  yes or no?   

For those interested in proof of National Alliance member Brian Smith's
(aka "Kurt Stele") rabid anti-Semitism, pathological Nazi apologia, and
that he possses an IQ of a fence post (not to mention a sewer mouth)
please visit:

http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/stele.kurt
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/smith.brian.r

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Dec 21 11:19:05 PST 1996
Article: 87218 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Reply to Jim Stuart regarding Talmud "quotations"
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 18:37:24 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 36
Message-ID: 
References:  <59gl41$dd9@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <59gl41$dd9@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
> 
> 
> >  
> >  
> >  For those interested in proof of Mr. Smith's (aka "Kurt Stele") rabid
> >  anti-Semitism, pathological Nazi apologia, and that he possses an IQ of a
> >  fence post (not to mention a sewer mouth) please visit:
> >  
> >
> Sewer mouth???  Look who's talking!!!  Gentle readers--refer to Mark's
> posts and read for yourselves how genteel he is.

Indeed! I am as genteel as can be. To honest and upright peole that is.
Not to lying scumbag Nazi apologists who deserve to be castigated and
ridiculed on a daily basis.

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Dec 21 11:19:06 PST 1996
Article: 87221 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Question...
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 18:46:02 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 45
Message-ID: 
References:  <59gjnt$cap@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <59gjnt$cap@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
> >  e0191187@brookes.ac.uk asks:
> >  
> >  # Why is Al Baron in jail?
> >  
> >  How do you know he's in jail, BTW? From reading this
> >  newsgroup? Or did you hear about it from another source?
> >  
> >  Do you know Baron? I kind of feel sorry for the guy. He
> >  really, really, needs help.
> >  
> >  posted/e-mailed.
> >  
> >  
> >  -Danny Keren.
> >  
> >  
> >  
> >  
> >>>>
> Look who's talking....Mr. Necrophilia.

Now, now, Mr. Belling! For a person with a dead rodent up his butt, that's
the pot calling the kettle black!

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Dec 21 11:19:07 PST 1996
Article: 87222 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: RBlackmore, spews more bile and chokes on it... Re: 'However, they were herded into the gas chambers and gassed'
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 18:44:12 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 38
Message-ID: 
References:  <59gl1g$dd9@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <59gl1g$dd9@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
> 
> 
> >  I can suggest several reasons why Mr. Belling _shouldn't_ be believed:
> >  
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> I can suggest ONE reason why Mark Van Alstine shouldn't be believed--
> his comments are an insult to one's intelligence.--rb

Alas, no. I merely insult Mr.Belling for his _lack_ off intelligence. And
his lack of integrity. And his lies. And his foolishness. And, of course,
his scumbag Nazi apologia.

Hardly a difficult task, IMHO.  

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196


Mark.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Dec 21 11:19:07 PST 1996
Article: 87224 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!news-out.internetmci.com!dciteleport.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: SS-Untersturmfuehrer Oberhauser Testifies About Belzec Death Camp
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 18:32:59 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 36
Message-ID: 
References: <59a0fb$1ip8$4@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <59glam$dd9@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <59glam$dd9@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) writes:
> 
> 
> >  
> >  
> >  --
> >  Gord McFee
> >  I'll write no line before its time
> >  
> >  
> >>>>
> When are you going to address the issues, little Gordie??  Afraid?

Mr. McFee is rolling on the floor in a fit of laughter at the moment and
can't type right now. If you'll wait a bit and let him catch his breath,
I'm sure he'll get back to you. 

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Dec 21 11:19:08 PST 1996
Article: 87226 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No SS Man Was Ever Punished?
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 17:52:08 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 52
Message-ID: 
References:  <59gdls$30v@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <59gdls$30v@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>   karlpov@access1.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power) writes:
>   tutu101@aol.com (Tutu101) writes:
>   
>   To M. Stein:  You are, of course, correct when you write that these events
>   occurred in 1937.  However, Koch was charged and executed in the forties,
>   as well as another commandaer, I believe.  Hoess was under investigation
>   by SS authorities as well, and a deposition was taken by one Eleanor
>   Hodyss, a mistress of the ex-commandant.  This deposition was to be used
>   as evidence against him by the SS judicial authorities.  The investigation
>   had the full backing of Himmler.  Grabner was also arrested by the SS and
>   charged with crimes, as was Goeth.  However, due to the late period in
>   time when their crimes came to light, they were later re-arrested and
>   executed by the Poles.  I am confident that I shall uncover many more such
>   cases as I continue to do research.
>   
>   Joe, there's a curious lacuna in all the above: "under investigation" for
>   WHAT? "arrested by the SS" for WHAT? WHAT crimes were involved? You have
>   been arguing that SS men were punished for cruelty toward Jews, but you
>   have presented evidence only that the SS occasionally arrested, charged,
>   or investigated its members for "crimes" which you consistently refuse to
>   specify (except, as I recall, at the beginning of your discussion of SS
>   arrests, when you demonstrably lied).
> 
> No, I never lied.  I never lie.  It would be playing into your hands.
> It was misinformation, and no fault of my own.  Check with Mike Stein about 
> it.

Thank you, Mr. Belling, for public confirmation that you also post under
the name of Tutu101 (tutu101@aol.com). 

[snip]

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Dec 21 11:19:09 PST 1996
Article: 87245 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No SS Man Was Ever Punished?
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 17:57:51 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 58
Message-ID: 
References:  <59ge6c$30v@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <59ge6c$30v@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
> 
> 
> >  
> >  What was that again about SS concerns over the proper treatment of
> >  prisoners? Not even Morgan, the SS officer who had Koch (and many others)
> >  arrested in regard to his _corruption_ investigations, could have been 
> >  very concerned about "proper treatment" of prisoners if he had four
> >  prisoners killed in his zeal to root out SS _corruption_ in the
> >  concentration camps! 
> >  
> >  [snip]
> >  
> >  Mark
> 
> We can always rely upon Mark for posting all the old wives tales, which have
> not even an iota of truth in them.  

Mr. Belling, if you have evidence that Hilberg was repeating "old wives
tales" [sic] that haven't "an iota of truth in them," please feel free to
offer credible evidence confirming so. What? You don't have any? You were
simply being a mendacious lying scymbag Nazi apologist? 

I'm shocked. (Not!) 

> Of course mark, now having opened this can of worms, is expected to provide 
> proof that Morgen was charged, convicted, and sentenced for these alleged 
> murders. 

Why? _I_ made no claims that Dr. Morgen was charged, charged, convicted,
and sentenced for the deaths of the four Soviet POWs.  Are _you_, Mr,
Belling, claiming that he was? 

> Where is it Mark?  Get that foot out of your
> mouth and prepare to stick the other one in....rb

More like Mr. Belling should pull his head out of his ass once in a while
and come up for air.... 

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Dec 21 11:19:10 PST 1996
Article: 87247 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mr. Gandhi's "handle"
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 18:07:39 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 78
Message-ID: 
References:  <59gcth$30v@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <59gcth$30v@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>    mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
> 
> 
>  
>   How about you answer this one, Mr. Belling:  how does it come to be that, 
>   just a few short months after showing up here posing as an objective 
>   truth-seeker, you were spotted exchanging antisemitic nursery rhymes with
>   Harold Covington of the National Socialist White People's Party?  How 
>   difficult was it to fake indignation at being called "Nazi-boy," knowing
>   all along that you were indeed a Nazi, in the literal sense of the term?
>   And lastly:  do you have any shame at all?
> 
> Did I exchange rhymes?  where are the others?  Am I a member of the NSWPP or
> any other right wing organization?  No.  Don't you have any shame for
all your lies,
> gross distortions, and slanders?  Of course you don't.  is that how your
mother raised 
> you to be?--rb
>   
> >  
> >  And Mr. Belling's "niece" was trying to pick-up teenage boys over the
> >  Internet too. 
> 
> You're just a filthy minded pig, Mark. 

Why, Mr. Belling? For simply repeating what you have confirmed? Wouldn't
that make _you_ a _hypocritical_ filthy minded pig? 

> Do you even HAVE a girl friend or a wife?
> How could they tolerate the hateful likes of you? 
> >  
> >  Uh-huh. And pigs have wings. 
> 
> What was it that turned you against the world and placed a chip on your
> shoulder mark?  

Why nothing, Mr. Belling. What ever gave you the idea that I didn't like
the world? It's perverted lying scumbag Nazi apologists like _you_ who I
detest.  

> You ought to seek pyschological couseling, and I am
> serious about this.  

That's funny... I showed a phychologist who's office is in my building a
few posts from a denier about Jewish ritual murder and she thought the guy
was one sick puppy!

> You are a sick man.--rb

Projecting again, I see. 

> For those interested in Marks steady decline into the depths of insanity,
> read his hate-filled posts.

Indeed! Please do. You can find them at: 

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/v/van-alstine.mark

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Dec 21 11:19:10 PST 1996
Article: 87248 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jews in Israel Hate Immigrants
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 18:09:45 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 30
Message-ID: 
References: <597stc$kdv@news.nyu.edu> <59gbnk$30v@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <59gbnk$30v@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   fresh@scscomm.com (Andrew Mathis) writes:
> 
> snip
> >  
> >>>>
> How many times in history was the talmud ordered confiscated and
> burned by authorities throughout the world and why would they do that?

How many priests did the Nazi murder and why did they do _that?_ 

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Dec 21 11:19:11 PST 1996
Article: 87249 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: CHARGES
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 18:15:19 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 55
Message-ID: 
References: <32c39d59.1906886@199.0.216.204> <59ggmp$sfi@news.enter.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <59ggmp$sfi@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

> >   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
> 
> >       What should one make of it if someone makes charges of
> >  anti-Semitism, neo-Nazism and/or racism and can't or refuses to follow
> >  up with an argument for proof?
> 
> But l'il tommy knows that this is not the case.  I am very willing to prove 
> the charge of anti-Semitism before an impartial tribunal.  To this offer
l'il > tommy has, when he has not lied about, refused to respond.  l'il
tommy, who 
> frequently wraps himself in the American flag when he parades his bigotry, 
> apparently does not believe in that most basic of American values, the fair 
> trial.
> 
> When l'il tommy reads this statement he will, as usual, run for cover.
> 
> Where could l'il tommy be hiding this time?
> 
> Could it be behind the drapes in the dining room?

Under the toilet seat is more like it....


The Moran (tm)  is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semite engaged in
blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi apologia, and Holocaust denial.
The Moran (tm) generally conducted himself with such a complete lack of
intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in
taking the time to read and respond.  For detailed and documented evidence
of this, please refer to:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom

But what else should one expect from a lying anti-Semite who holds wacko
beliefs, is intellectually depraved, hasn't the slightest clue regarding
Supreme Court decisions, or what constitutes a dud at the  box-office? For
evidence of this please see:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/1996/what-moran-believes.9607
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies/hilberg-out-of-context
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-menorah-faq
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-schindler-faq


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Dec 21 11:19:12 PST 1996
Article: 87250 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jews in Israel Hate Immigrants
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 18:11:47 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 37
Message-ID: 
References: <59bt3p$tok$5@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <59gc9a$30v@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <59gc9a$30v@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) writes:
> >
> 
> >  [end quote]
> >  
> >  
> >  
> >  --
> >  Gord McFee
> >  I'll write no line before its time
> >  
> >  
> >>>>
> Gordon's Holiday Hit parade has only one selection.  I think YOU
> should be writing to Mr. Covington, Gord.

Why? You get writer's cramp already? 

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Dec 21 11:19:13 PST 1996
Article: 87251 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jews in Israel Hate Immigrants
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 18:10:54 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 40
Message-ID: 
References: <59eqvq$5u1@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <59gbq1$30v@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <59gbq1$30v@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) writes:
> >  rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
> >  
> >  : That has already been addressed, though not to your liking, I am
> >  : sure.  Now, do you claim to read hebrew or not?  Perhaps you can answer
> >  : a question in a straight forward manner for once in your life. 
Just once.  
> >  : try it.--rb
> >  
> >  
> >  I don't read Hebrew, and never claimed I did.  
> >  
> >  Gee, this answering questions in a "straight forward" manner is fun!  
> >  Your turn, Mr. Belling--why did you send the following message to 
> >  Harold Covington of the National Socialist White People's Party?
> >  
> 
> Why do you ask after you have already been given an answer?--rb

We like to see you squirm for the worm you are? 

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Dec 21 11:19:13 PST 1996
Article: 87252 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Certain Perspective
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 18:17:02 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 57
Message-ID: 
References: <32bf0cf2.2566041@199.0.216.204> <32b89bf0.16949745@news.gte.net>  <32c0c7b1.13710762@199.0.216.204> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article , dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
> 
> # Mr.(Dr.)Keren has used this terminology before, "huge
> # amounts" of human remains were found. I had ask him
> # before to cite the source for his claim. He never came
> # back.
> 
> Sure I did. Huge numbers of corpses were found in Belsen
> and other camps, as you know well. Huge amounts of ashes
> and human remains were found in Treblinka and Maidanek.
> 
> Now, Tommy, you're apparently adopting the "revisionist"
> argument of "show me six million corpses". Therefore, I
> address to you the question: "show me one corpse of
> someone who was killed in the alleged aerial attack
> on Dresden". If you can't do it, well, according to
> your own standards this attack never took place.
> 
> # Go for it. Give it the ol' PhD.
> 
> That old inferiority complex surely kicks in when the
> sun goes down, eh Tommy? Grow up.

He tried. It didn't work.

The Moran (tm)  is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semite engaged in
blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi apologia, and Holocaust denial.
The Moran (tm) generally conducted himself with such a complete lack of
intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in
taking the time to read and respond.  For detailed and documented evidence
of this, please refer to:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom

But what else should one expect from a lying anti-Semite who holds wacko
beliefs, is intellectually depraved, hasn't the slightest clue regarding
Supreme Court decisions, or what constitutes a dud at the  box-office? For
evidence of this please see:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/1996/what-moran-believes.9607
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies/hilberg-out-of-context
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-menorah-faq
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-schindler-faq

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Dec 21 11:19:14 PST 1996
Article: 87257 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: RBlackmore, spews more bile and chokes on it... Re: 'However, they were herded into the gas chambers and gassed'
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 18:41:14 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 48
Message-ID: 
References:  <59gkuu$dd9@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <59gkuu$dd9@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
> >  In article <597vrv$iua@lendl.cc.emory.edu>, libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu
> >  (william c anderson) wrote:
> >  
> >  > rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
> >  > 
> >  > : Reread my Soviet Def Comedy Jam Posts for many more instances
> >  > : of obviously fabricated Soviet testimony.  I can post additional
material
> >  > : if you wish.--rb
> >  > 
> >  > Uh-huh.  Given the fact that you, a nazi shill and associate of Harold
> >  > Covington of the National Socialist White People's Party, came into this
> >  > group claiming to be an Honest Seeker of Truth, can you suggest any
> >  > reason, Mr. Belling, why anybody here should believe anything you say?
> 
> Well, how about the truth, which is something you don't understand very
> well, as you say that I am a nazi shill and associate of a man I have never
> met or conversed with in my life.  But, no matter to old Mark...if he can just
> throw enough mud......just a little more mud.......just a few more
insults.....perhaps people will forget how little he has to offer on alt
revisionism.....rb

Alas, Mr. Belling, a truckload of mud would not suffice for you to wallow in. 

But as to how little I can offer alt.revisionism I would let our audience
be the judge of that. Certainly _not_ a lying scumbag Nazi apologist like
yourself!

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Dec 21 11:19:15 PST 1996
Article: 87262 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!news-out.internetmci.com!dciteleport.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Truehe Runs Into Technical Difficulties
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 18:33:37 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 42
Message-ID: 
References: <598o78$ike$3@gruvel.une.edu.au> <59gl7i$dd9@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <59gl7i$dd9@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   ibokor@metz.une.edu.au (ibokor) writes:
> >  : 
> >  :    I find it equally interesting that people would be "rushing to the
> >  : rear."  Would that be to get away from the exhaust inlet?  Does that
> >  : mean that there was from the exhaust pipe at the rear of the truck all
> >  : the way back up to the front of the truck?  
> >  : 
> >  
> >  I would expect that those seeking to escape would
> >  move towards the only exit --- the door --- and try
> >  to force it open, irrespective of where the gas was
> >  introduced. The door was at the rear of the vans.
> >  
> >  But someone with an IQ of 163 would certainly have
> >  found a better solution.
> >  
> >  d.A.
> >  
> >>>>
> Someone with an IQ of 90 would have thought up a better lie.--rb

Why? You never do. 

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Dec 21 11:19:16 PST 1996
Article: 87275 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.rel.christian,alt.religion.islam
Subject: Re: Nazi Atrocities?
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 13:36:08 -0700
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In article <59aru4$3t2@lex.zippo.com>, Ourobouros wrote:

> In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
says...
> >
> >In article <59aecc$nnf$1@uhura.phoenix.net>,
> >"tavish@phoenix.net"@phoenix.net wrote:
> >
> >> Ourobouros wrote:
> >> > 
> >> > In article <597b3d$b9j@news.nyu.edu>, fresh@scscomm.com says...
> >> > >
> >> > >Doc Tavish <"tavish@phoenix.net"@phoenix.net> wrote:
> >> > >
> [genocide, slashing, stabbing snipped]
> 
> >> The records (Biblical) show the Israelites (their perspective) as being
> >> the only ones going on their search and destroy missions....
> >
> >Mr. McTavish, do the words "Sumer," "Akkad," and "Babylonia" ring a bell?    
> >
> Not one of these groups were genocidal.

And your evidence for this is?

> >> ...as best as I know we have no records from the others involved... 
> >
> >Hardly suprising, Mr. McTavish, as the _first_ recorded battle in history
> >was the Battle of Megiddo in 1469 B.C. (cf. Dupuy, _The Harper
> >Encyclopedia of Military History_, p.5.) 
> >
> I believe that would be out of date.  With more and more records being
> recovered from Mesopotamia, unknown battles have come to the fore.

Feel free to cite them. What? You don't know of any off-hand? Pity. 

> [snip]
> 
> >> You are correct about the stabbing part and that is why modern bayonets 
> >> have  blood grooves (to facilitate withdrawal).
> >
> >Interesting. Is there a cite for this? 
> >
> It is an extremely common belief that the fullers were made as blood 
> channels.  

So were sea monsters. So was the belief that if one sailed to far out to
sea one would fall of the edge of the world....

> Even people in the know believe this, and I would think that a
> goodly number of books on swords would record it as so.  One other category
> I forgot to list in another post is fullers add strength to the weapon
> (daggers and knives often come with fullers.)

Again, do you have an authoritative _citation_ for this? 

> >> If we could see pictures of Israelite carnage and what the corpses of
their 
> >> victims- men, women and children looked like it would be just as graphic as
> >> Nizkook's pictures.
> >
> >Indeed. But then, so would carnage caused by the Egyptians, Assyrians,
> >Greeks, Romans, Mongols, Turks, etc.. 
> >
> Not one of these groups believed in genocide of ethnic groups.  

Tell that, for example, to the Carthegians and Armenians. 

> One could twist the Roman sack of Carthage as one case, and Athens in the 
> Peloponnesian war on revolting and democratic states (please note Mr.
> Ledgister, democratic states fight each other.)

During the Third Punic War Rome was not a democracy like, for example, the
United States during WWII. (Fabius Maximus was appointed dictator.) 
Neither was Carthage, merely "sacked." Carthage was laid waste. Erased.
Nine tenths of the population of died in the fall of Carthage, the city
torched and its walls torn down, the survivors sold as slaves, and by
order of the Roman Senate it was decreed that no one was allowed to live
where Carthage once stood. 

Cf. Dupuy, _The Harper Encyclopedia of Military History_, p.99-100;
http://www.idbsu.edu:80/courses/hy101/punicwar/09.htm;
http://www.idbsu.edu:80/courses/hy101/punicwar/17.htm. 

> >And, of course, the Nazis. Except the for the millions they gassed and
> >starved to death. Homicidal gassings and starvation don't cause stab
> >wounds....
> >
> Starvation is hardly new -- sieges come to mind.  

Indeed. But the Nazis didn't lay siege to the POW and concentration camps
they built and manned- and the the prisoners they starved to death there. 

And, of course, they also murdered millions in them (i.e. the
extermination camps) via homicidal gassings. That, at least, _was_
something horrifyingly new. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Dec 21 19:55:57 PST 1996
Article: 87364 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.rel.christian,alt.religion.islam
Subject: Re: Nazi Atrocities?
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 02:17:57 -0700
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In article <59aqsq$3bg@lex.zippo.com>, Ourobouros wrote:

> I fully agree that 3500 years ago, the Israelites were the only genocidal
> people on the planet....  

And your reasons for this are? What _historical_ evidence do you base your
"agreement" on? 

> After I wrote the above, I remembered that the Israelites were supposed to 
> have come from Egypt...

Er, no. Given that Abram was a descendant of Shem (cf. Genesis 11; KJV),
their lands were "from Mesha, as thou goest unto Sephar a mount of the
east" (Genesis 10:30; KJV). It was later that "Abram went down into Egypt
to sojourn there; for the famine [was] grievous in the land" (Genesis
12:10; KJV) and then left (cf. Genesis 13:1; KJV) to eventually live in
Canaan (Genesis 13:12; KJV). 

Of course, _historically_ speaking, the point in time this supposedly took
place is a bit vague. If, as it has been suggested, was to have taken
place around 3500 B.C., it would have preceded the introduction of the
sword in warfare by about 1500 years:

 "The first new weapons of metallic age were the axe and the mace, the
dagger, and then the sword, The long thin blade that characterizes the
sword could not have been created until metallurgy had sufficiently
developed to permit the working of hard malleable metal. This occured in
the Bronze Age sometime before 2000 B.C., and the sword was probably
introduced into warfare by the Assyrians." (Dupuy, _The Harper
Encyclopedia of Military History_, pp.2-3.) 

> ...which meant their swords would have been an adaption of the sickle sword, 
> which has no point. 

Given that you were incorrect in your origional assumption about the
origions of the Israelites, your subsequent assumption about the type of
sword used is also suspect. Could you please provide _historical_ evidence
that the Israelites used "an adaption of the sickle sword?" Given that the
sword was most likely introduced by the Assyrians, would it not also be
likely that the type of sword  by patterned after the Assyrian sword i.e.-
"The long thin blade that characterizes the sword."? 

> Apart from slashing the only other move is bludgeoning  with that kind of 
> sword.

Again, what historical evidence do you have that the Isrealites used was
"an adaption of the sickle sword?" So far you have offered nothing but
incorrect speculation. 

[snip]

> I believe there is a reference to one of Israeli kings who used saws & Co.
> on his opponents, now that is cruel.

And there is testimony that the Nazis tossed innocent children alive into
burning ditches. It is said that to be burned alive is one of the most
painfull ways to die. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Dec 21 19:55:58 PST 1996
Article: 87365 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Clearing the air about Posen
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 04:47:12 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
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In article <32b7ab82.493318875@news.zilker.net>, mike@aimetering.com (Mike
Curtis) wrote:

[snip]

> Unfortunately, rblackmore (whoever that really is) is hardly the final
> arbitur of the authenticity of the recording made at Posen. So
> Blackmore's say so is as worthless as a pimple on a duck's butt.

ROTFL!

"Pimple on a duck's butt."  

> >  I merely comment that the remarks are really insignificant
> >and do not lend support to your claims that Jews were being gassed.
> 
> Sour grapes.

Or, considering the trck record of Mr. "pimple on a duck's butt,"
delusions of grandeur. 

> There's so much hand waving going on here that I must take my leave.

Indeed! Considering all the furious hand-waving by Mr. Belling, it might
cause one to assume that a rodent crawled up his ass and died.... 

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Dec 21 22:36:13 PST 1996
Article: 87410 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Coming Soon to a Theatre Near You
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 03:54:23 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
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In article <59c6ks$ep9@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> Actually, Doc, not all prisoners were tattooed, even at Auschwitz. Some of 
> those destined for transit to another camp from Auschwitz were often held 
> for a while and then shipped on. 

Mr. Belling continues with his disinngenuous "embellingments." Would Mr.
Belling care to explain why, up until around November 1944, records show
approximately a million Jews being sent to Auschwitz but never leaving?
Would Mr. Belling care to back up his explination with the historical
evidence? 

> Consequently, there was no need to tattoo.  

Mr. Belling here again attempts to sidestep the glaring fact that the Jews
sent to Auschwitz and selected for "special treatment" were _not_
registered into the camp, as they were slated to soon be murdered in the
gas chambers at Auschwitz.* As they were not registered, they did not
recieve tatoos.

* "Beginning in July 1942, Jewish transports went through selection upon
arrival. The young, healthy, and able-bodied men and women were selected
for labor. The remaining deportees, above all children, mothers with small
children, and pregnant women, were consigned to death in the gas chambers
without any registration." (cf. Gutman, _Anatomy_, p.414.)

> Curiously, at some point during the course of the war, and this would have
> to be checked in Danuta Czech's book, the tattooing of prisoners stopped 
> altogether at Auschwitz.  

Here's some things that Czech (_Auschwitz Cronicles_, pp.563-564) has to
say on this: 



In mid-May 1944, when the mass transports of Hungarian Jews start arriving
in Auschwitz, the youbg, healthy, and strong Jews of both genders are
dispersed for a time as so-called depot prisoners to various barracks at
Birkenau, but are not recorded in the camp registers. They are accomodated
in Camp B-IIIc, where younf, able-bodied female Jews are kept; in the
recently vacated Gypsy Family Camp B-IIe, where the young, able-bodied
male and female Jewish prisoners are accomodated who eventually are taken
the other camps; in Camp B-IIb, ehich is empty since the liquidation of
the Theresienstadt Family Camp; and finally in Section B-III, still under
construction, known as "Mexico" to the prisoners and also intended for
female Jews. The Jews temporarily located in Birkenau recieve no I.D.
numbers and are not toattooed. Selections are conduction at specific
intervals: When the camp admionistration has a need for laborers, it sends
some prisoners from these camps to specific auxiliary camps or to the
labor squads. Then they are registered and given numbers. Underthe
direction of the WVHA, others are transferred to armaments plants in the
interior of the Reich."



As to the the complete cessation of registering (and hence tatooing) of
prisoners at "some point during the course of the war," one need only
point out that as late as January 4, 1945, only two weeks prior to the
_evacuation_ of Auschwitz, prisoners recieved registration numbers (cf.
Ibid. p.773.). This was _after_ the cessation of homicidal gassings at
Auschwitz.*

*"The last victims to undergo selection was a transport from
Theresienstadt, which arrived on October 30,1944. The next transport, from
Sered, which arrived on November 3, 1944, was registered in the camp
register in its entirety." (Gutman, _Anatomy_, p.174.) The note to the
above is as follows: "73. According to H.G. Adler, gassings in Auscwhitz
were discontinued on November 2, 1944; Adler, _Thereseinstadt 1941-1945_
(Tu"bingen, 1955), p.694." (Ibid. p.181.)

Given the above, how does Mr. Belling explain, for example, that during
Aktion Ho"sd some 10 percent (~44,000) of the approximately 438,000
arriving Jews from Hungary were registered while the the remaining 90
percent (~394,000) were _not_ registered and were never heard from again? 

> I have personally spoken to ex-inmates of Auschwitz, some of who had a
tattoo, 
> and others who didn't. There need be nothing sinister read into the fact that 
> some inmates were tattooed and  others were not. The members of the SS were 
> also tattooed under their arm.

Given that Mr. Belling is a proven (and mendacious) liar, I would ask of
him a signed and notorized deposition from these "ex-inmates of Auschwitz"
he claims to have talked to that confirm his claims. Until then, Mr.
Belling's, "claims" cannot be taken seriously. 

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Dec 21 22:36:13 PST 1996
Article: 87434 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Coming Soon to a Theatre Near You
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 16:06:49 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
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In article <59g8pj$30v@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:

[snip]

>>   Mr. Belling continues with his disinngenuous "embellingments." Would Mr.
>>   Belling care to explain why, up until around November 1944, records show
>>   approximately a million Jews being sent to Auschwitz but never leaving?
>>   Would Mr. Belling care to back up his explination with the historical
>>   evidence? 
> 
> How do you definitely know that they never left, mark?  

How do _you_ definitely know that they _did_ leave, Mr. Belling? 

> How do you know for a fact that this number entered the camp?  

How do _you_ know for a fact that this number _didn't_ enter the camp? 

> Train schedules?  Sorry, that is  not enough to go on so...

Why is that? Can _you_ explain why trainschedules (and demographic
statistics etc. are _not_  "enough to go on?" 

> ...what proof do you have?

How about that the approximately 1,000,000 Jews sent to Auschwitz
dissapeared and have never been heard from since? How about that
eyewitness, documentary, and forensic evidence indicates that they were
killed in the gas chambers at Birkenau and their bodies incinerated and
their remains disposed of in the nearby rivers and fields? 

What _proof_ do _you_ have that contravenes this? 

>    Consequently, there was no need to tattoo.  
>   
>>   Mr. Belling here again attempts to sidestep the glaring fact that the Jews
>>   sent to Auschwitz and selected for "special treatment" were _not_
>>   registered into the camp, as they were slated to soon be murdered in the
>>   gas chambers at Auschwitz.* As they were not registered, they did not
>>   recieve tatoos.
> 
> Yes, this is your interpretation. But based upon what EVIDENCE, Mark?

How about that the approximately 1,000,000 Jews sent to Auschwitz
dissapeared and have never been heard from since? How about that
eyewitness, documentary, and forensic evidence indicates that they were
killed in the gas chambers at Birkenau and their bodies incinerated and
their remains disposed of in the nearby rivers and fields? 

What _evidence_ do _you_ have that contravenes this, Mr. Belling? 

> As I mentioned, I have personally met ex-inmates from Auschwitz and they
> did NOT have a tattoo.  

You are a proven liar, Mr. Belling, your claims are worthless. If you wish
for your claim that you "have personally met ex-inmates from Auschwitz and
they did NOT have a tattoo" to be taken seriously, then please provide a
notorized deposition from these "ex-inmates from Auschwitz" confirming
your claim.   

> I had a Jewish mechanic who was from Poland, and he DID have a tattoo.  

You are a proven liar, Mr. Belling, your claims are worthless. If you wish
for your claim about this "Jewish mechanic" to be taken seriously, then
please provide a notorized deposition from this "Jewish mechanic"
confirming your claim.   

> Now, this is strange, don't you think--as it is the Polish Jews
> who are claimed to have been all but exterminated--and they would have been
> among the first sent to the camp--and here is a man--a Jewish man--with a 
> tattoo from Auschwitz--and he is still alive and well.  

Why do you think such would be "strange," Mr. Belling? After all, by
_your_ own admittance, the Polish Jews were "claimed to have been all but
exterminated," which implies that _some_ Polish Jews survived. Obviously,
this "Jewish man" was one of those very few that _did_ survive. 

> Note that he would have been sent to Auschwitz well before the Hungarian jews.

So? Henryk Tauber and Filip Mu"ller (both Sonderkommandos), for example
were sent to Auschwitz prior to to Aktion Ho"ss and survived the war.
Tauber even at testified at Ho"ss's trial in Poland. 

>>   * "Beginning in July 1942, Jewish transports went through selection upon
>>   arrival. The young, healthy, and able-bodied men and women were selected
>>   for labor. The remaining deportees, above all children, mothers with small
>>   children, and pregnant women, were consigned to death in the gas chambers
>>   without any registration." (cf. Gutman, _Anatomy_, p.414.)
> 
> Well, this is an accusation.  

No, Mr. Belling, it a simply a statement of historical fact. 

Where is the proof?

According to Ho"ss, for example: 

"...Those that would be fit to work would be sent into the camp. Others
were sent immediately to the extermination plants. Children of tender
years were invariably exterminated, since by reason of their youth they
were unable to work..."  (Crankshaw, _Gestapo: instrument of tryanny_,
p.194; cf. IMT Doc. D.746.) 

"The sorting process went as follows: The railway cars were unloaded one
after another. After depositing their baggage, the Jews had to
individually pass in front of an SS doctor, who decided on their physical
fitness as they marched past him. Those who were considered able-bodied
were immediately escorted into the camp in small groups..." (Ho"ss, _Death
Dealer_, p.35.) 

"...The extermination process in Auschwitz took place as follows: Jews
selected for gassing were taken as quietly as possible to the crematories.
The men were already seperated from the women...After undressing, the Jews
went into the gas chamber, which was furnished with showers and water
pipes and gave a realistic impression of a bathhouse.

"The women went first with their children, followed by the men, who were
always fewer in number..." (Ibid. pp.43-44.) 

Rudolf Ho"ss's statement are supported, to name but a few, by those of
Perry Broad (cf. Czech, _KL Auschwitz_, pp.174-183), Johann Kremer (cf.
Ibid. p.214fn), Henryk Tauber (cf. Pressac, _Technique_, pp.494-495), and
FIlip Mu"ller (cf. Lanzmann, _Shoah_, pp. 57-58,113-117). 

Where is _your_ proof, Mr. Belling, that these people (and others) were
not telling the truth? 

Additionally, in the case of many of the deportees from western Europe,
lists of names of Jews transported from Drancy and elsewhere that were
sent to, and murdered at, Auschwitz have been almost entirely preserved. 
>From  France, for example, between March 27, 1942 to Auhust 11, 1944, some
69,119 people, including at least 9,820 children under the age of 17. (cf.
Gutman, _Anatomy_, p.414.) 

Where is your _proof_, Mr. Belling that these approximately 70,000 French
Jews _weren't_ killed in the gas chambers of Auschwitz? Where is your
_proof_ that these of these 70,000, that those who were sent to Auschwitz
_before_ Aktion Ho"ss were registered (and tatooed) and admitted into
Auschwitz and not killed in the gas chambers? 

Of course you won't give any such "proof" because you _can't_. All you
_can_ do is huff and puff and stamp your little feet and whine, "Where is
the proof?" when the _proof_ stares you right in the face. 

>  Curiously, at some point during the course of the war, and this would have
>  to be checked in Danuta Czech's book, the tattooing of prisoners stopped 
>  altogether at Auschwitz.  
>   
>>   Here's some things that Czech (_Auschwitz Cronicles_, pp.563-564) has to
>>   say on this: 
>>   
>>   
> 
> snip
> (Note:  I snipped the quote, not out of disrespect, but because it did not 
> answer my question.  therefore, its introduction was irrelevant.  Do you have 
> the quote where Czech indicates at what point the tattooing of inmates 
> ceased?."--rb
>   
>>   

Tsk tsk, Mr. Belling. The quote from the _Auschwitz Cronicles_ answers
your "question" rather succintly, IMO. Here, let me show it again: 



In mid-May 1944, when the mass transports of Hungarian Jews start arriving
in Auschwitz, the young, healthy, and strong Jews of both genders are
dispersed for a time as so-called depot prisoners to various barracks at
Birkenau, but are not recorded in the camp registers. They are accomodated
in Camp B-IIIc, where younf, able-bodied female Jews are kept; in the
recently vacated Gypsy Family Camp B-IIe, where the young, able-bodied
male and female Jewish prisoners are accomodated who eventually are taken
the other camps; in Camp B-IIb, ehich is empty since the liquidation of
the Theresienstadt Family Camp; and finally in Section B-III, still under
construction, known as "Mexico" to the prisoners and also intended for
female Jews. The Jews temporarily located in Birkenau recieve no I.D.
numbers and are not toattooed. Selections are conduction at specific
intervals: When the camp administration has a need for laborers, it sends
some prisoners from these camps to specific auxiliary camps or to the
labor squads. Then they are registered and given numbers. Underthe
direction of the WVHA, others are transferred to armaments plants in the
interior of the Reich."



What do you not understand about this, Mr. Belling? That "the young,
healthy, and strong Jews of both genders are dispersed for a time as
so-called depot prisoners to various barracks at Birkenau, but are not
recorded in the camp registers?" Or that "the Jews temporarily located in
Birkenau recieve no I.D. numbers and are not toattooed?" Or that
"selections are conduction at specific intervals: When the camp
administration has a need for laborers, it sends some prisoners from these
camps to specific auxiliary camps or to the labor squads?" Or maybe the
part about: "Then they are registered and given numbers. Underthe
direction of the WVHA, others are transferred to armaments plants in the
interior of the Reich?"

What is it you don't understand, Mr. Belling, during Aktion Ho"ss, that the 
"depot prisoners " _weren't_ registered (and tatooed) until they were needed 
as laborers? I thought you were answered pretty clearly as to why _some_
of the prisoners who _weren't_ gassed immediately on arrival during this
period did not recieve tatoos. 

>   As to the the complete cessation of registering (and hence tatooing) of
>   prisoners at "some point during the course of the war," one need only
>   point out that as late as January 4, 1945, only two weeks prior to the
>  _evacuation_ of Auschwitz, prisoners recieved registration numbers (cf.
>   Ibid. p.773.). This was _after_ the cessation of homicidal gassings at
>   Auschwitz.*
>   
>   *"The last victims to undergo selection was a transport from
>   Theresienstadt, which arrived on October 30,1944. The next transport, from
>   Sered, which arrived on November 3, 1944, was registered in the camp
>   register in its entirety." (Gutman, _Anatomy_, p.174.) The note to the
>   above is as follows: "73. According to H.G. Adler, gassings in Auscwhitz
>   were discontinued on November 2, 1944; Adler, _Thereseinstadt 1941-1945_
>   (Tu"bingen, 1955), p.694." (Ibid. p.181.)
>   
> >  Given the above, how does Mr. Belling explain, for example, that during
> >  Aktion Ho"sd some 10 percent (~44,000) of the approximately 438,000
> >  arriving Jews from Hungary were registered while the the remaining 90
> >  percent (~394,000) were _not_ registered and were never heard from again? 
> 
> 
> There are literally a hundred books dealing with the fate of the Hungarian 
> Jews sent to Auschwitz.  

List fifty please. That should be easy for a person who has thousands upon
thousands of books in his "library," yes? 

> Many of them disagree in many points.  

Name ten major "points" that are in disgreement in regard to the fate of
the Hungarian Jews sent to Auschwitz during Aktion Ho"ss. 

> If there is so much disagreement among the researchers, how can you expect 
> people to take your statement as fact?--rb

Ah, let's not put the cart before the horse, Mr. Belling! So far we have
only your word- the word of a proven liar -that any such "disagreement"
exists! Until you can satisfy the above by providing credible evidence
that there is "much disagreement among the researchers" in regards to the
Aktion Ho"ss your "claims" needn't be taken seriously at all. 

On the other hand, however, we have many examples of Holocaust researchers
and historians who are in _agreement_ as to the fate of the aproximately
438,000 Hungarian Jews who were sent to Auschwitz during Aktion Ho"ss. 

> >  > I have personally spoken to ex-inmates of Auschwitz, some of who had a
> >  > tattoo, and others who didn't. There need be nothing sinister read into 
> >  > the fact that some inmates were tattooed and  others were not. The 
> >  > members of the SS were also tattooed under their arm.
> >  
> >  Given that Mr. Belling is a proven (and mendacious) liar, I would ask of
> >  him a signed and notorized deposition from these "ex-inmates of Auschwitz"
> >  he claims to have talked to that confirm his claims. Until then, Mr.
> >  Belling's, "claims" cannot be taken seriously. 
> 
> Well, then, do not take them seriously.  

I don't. 

> The fact is what I wrote is the truth.--rb

Then prove it, you lying scumbag Nazi apologist. But you will not because
you _cannot_. It's as simple as that.


For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Dec 22 10:06:28 PST 1996
Article: 87482 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Nazi discusses war crimes (And response to Chuck)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 19:07:32 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 34
Message-ID: 
References: <19961211054600.AAA13161@ladder01.news.aol.com>  <32b103b2.11320646@news.alt.net> <32b212ff.8941781@news.micron.net> <58uafn$csn@news.nyu.edu> <32b737e5.89408064@news.micron.net> <59b9dv$9tu@morgana.netcom.net.uk> <32bbb47d.104115726@news.micron.net>  <32BBE535.714C@nbnet.nb.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32BBE535.714C@nbnet.nb.ca>, Keith Morrison
 wrote:

> Mark Van Alstine wrote:
> 
> > Contrast this to the deluded Nazi fantasies and propganda that Mr. Smith
> > substitues for an education! Would Mr. Smith care to wager a small sum,
> > say $100, in regard to his claim that "the US was destroying German
> > vessels on the high seas before 1939 to provoke Hitler into a war?"
> 
> Mark, Mark, Mark.  You think small.  How about this: $100 per ship?

LOL! I like it! We can start off at, say, $1,000 each and for every ship
Mr. Smith can prove was sunk by the U.S. Navy before 1939 I give him $100.
For every  ship Mr. Smith guesses wrong (and I _do_ mean guess) he pays me
$100. Game end after five days or when the first person to go bust. 

If Mr. Smith cannot name _one_ ship within five days after starting he
forfeits his $1,000 and the game ends.

(And of course, a neutral party will hold the monies until the game ends.) 

How's that? 


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Dec 22 14:40:49 PST 1996
Article: 87620 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!uunet!in1.uu.net!205.252.116.190!feed1.news.erols.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!newshub1.home.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.censorship,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: The Great Debate
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 13:48:20 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 64
Message-ID: 
References: <199612120033.QAA01666@mailmasher.com> <5972s1$p2f@lex.zippo.com> <59ad1g$a11@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <59aubi$4n2@lex.zippo.com> <59cf44$sld@access5.digex.net> <59clb5$a6m@lex.zippo.com> <32bbbbdf.106006444@news.micron.net>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:87620 alt.censorship:112915 alt.politics.nationalism.white:40094 alt.politics.white-power:52996

In article <32bbbbdf.106006444@news.micron.net>, kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

[snip]

> Mike Stein is a real beauty.  He thinks "freedom of speech" should be
> nothing more than the freedom of Jewish media bosses to censor what
> they wish from the airwaves.  

Er, no. Mr. Stein has simply made plain that free speech does not mean
that one has the "freedom"to _make_ people listen to what one says if they
choose not to. That you and your Nazi bretheren percieve the rejection by
mainstream society of _your_ hatemongering drivel as "censorship" by
"Jewish media bosses" merely underscores  _your_ intolerance to the
principles of democracy and free speech. 

But then, Mr. Smith, you _are_ a Nazi cultist after all....

[Mr. Smith's rabid ranting snipped]

One can only wonder if Mr. Smith's keepers at the National Alliance
realize he has escaped his padded cell and is skulking about the digital
street corners haranguing passers-by with his insane diatribes? 

> At the Nuremberg Tribunal, chief U.S. prosecutor Robert Jackson
> charged that the Germans invented" a device to instantaneously
> "vaporize" 20,000 Jews near Auschwitz "in such a way that there was no
> trace left of them." IMT blue series, Vol. 16, p. 529-530. (June 21,
> 1946).  No reputable historian now accepts this fanciful tale.

And only pathetic little Nazis like Mr. Smith keep repeating such lies.
The absolute moral and intellectual depravity of Mr. Smith and his Nazi
ilk in continuing to promulgate this is revealed at: 

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/j/jackson.robert/vaporizing-device-context

For those interested in proof of National Alliance member Brian Smith's
(aka "Kurt Stele") rabid anti-Semitism, pathological Nazi apologia, and
that he possses an IQ of a fence post (not to mention a sewer mouth)
please visit:

http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/stele.kurt
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/smith.brian.r

"The truth is spread on the record before us, and all we have to do is
state the truth plainly. The German militarists joined forces with Hitler
and with him created the Third Reich; with him they deliberately made a
world in which might was all that mattered; with him him they plunged the
world into war, and spread terror and devestation over the continent of
Europe. They dealt a blow at all mankind; a blow so savage and foul that
the conscience of the world will reel for years to come. This was not war;
it was crime. This was not soldiering; it was savagery. We cannot make
history over again, but we can see that it is written true."  -Telford
Taylor

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Dec 22 14:40:51 PST 1996
Article: 87632 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!news-stkh.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.exodus.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Now Playing....Irma Grese
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 17:47:53 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 486
Message-ID: 
References:  <59gij5$cap@juliana.sprynet.com>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <59gij5$cap@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

[snip]

>>>  You have no proof these women were murdered.  
>   
>>   On the contrary! Kremer, an eyewitness, confirmed that these women were
>>   murdered. His testimony was admitted in a court of law as evidence. That,
>>   Mr. Belling, is legal "proof."
> 
> No.  he does not confirm this, Mark.  

Kremer confirmed that these women were murdered when he expanded on his
diary entry in his interrogation in Poland. 

> At least NOT in his diary, which is more important than his statements at the 
> Polish inquisition and a later threat to reimprison him in Germany. 

Mr. Belling, Kremer did not deny that these women were murdered. He
_confirmed_ it -without any evident coercion. If you have hard evidence to
the contrary I suggest you show it. Else you are simply being infantile in
your objections. 

> You cannot make that argument stick due to the circumstances...

And what circumstances might that have been? Are you suggesting, Mr.
Belling,  that Kremers diary and deposition in Poland are not supported by
other evidence? If so, please feel free to explain why this would be the
case.

> otherwise, you may just as well begin admitting that Jewish
> confessions to ritual murder were true.--rb

Why? The entirety of evidence of Jewish ritual murders points to it not
happening. If you feel otherwise please feel free to free to explain why
this would be the case. 

>>> What seems logical is that some sort of delousing and cleaning facility 
>>> was set up on a temporary basis to treat these unfortunates.--rb
>   
>>  Mr. Belling, your "logic" has proven in the past to be quite twisted.
> 
> Oh?  By whom?  When?  Where?  Not by you.--rb

Yes, by myself and many others, Mr. Belling. That your immense ego and
Nazi cultist dogmatism prevents you from seeing this is hardly
suprising....  

>>   Rather than offer unfounded speculation, perhaps you would care to offer
>>   _evidence_ that points out exactly where any such facillities existed at
>>   Birkenau circa September 1942? 
>   
>>   No? Thought not.
> 
> If the installations were temporary, then there would be no proof, Mark.

I see that your are into circular reasoning now, Mr. Belling. How
charming, that you admit you have no proof for your assertions! Just:
Because You I So! 

> Where is your evidence that there were gas chambers there?  

The ruins with cynaide traces are still there, Mr. Belling. The
incineration pits with traces of burnt human remains in them have been
identified. Ventillation grates with cyanide traces on them found and
identified. As was a gas-tight door with a protective grill that matched
the descriptions given by eyewitnesses.  Then there are the many Nazi
documets and memos describing the contruction of the Kremas that point to
homicidal purposes. 

And, of course, numerous eyewitness testimonies confirming that there were
homicidal gas chambers in Birkenau and that they were used to kill people
in.

> No "eyewitness testimonies" or "confessions" allowed.--rb

Sorry, Mr. Belling, _you_ don't make the rules. 

>      They thought they were going to be killed, according to the pervasive 
>      rumours throughout the camp.
>     
>      Indeed. If Mr. Belling weren't such a lying scumbag Nazi apologist, he
>      would have the honesty to acknowledge that Kremer stated:
>      
>      "...I could deduce from the behavior of these women that they realized
>      what was awaiting them. They begged the SS men to be allowwed to live,
>      they wept, but all of them were driven into the gas chamber and
>      gassed...." (Czech, _KL Auschwitz_, p.215fn.) 
>    
>    This does NOT come from his diary, but from his Soviet-Polish Show
trial, . 
>   therefore, I reject this statement as you reject the statements of Jews who 
>    confessed to committing ritual murder.--rb

Hardly suprising as you have no other recourse, Mr. Belling. Lacking any
credible argument, you must resort to frantic hand waving. Unless, of
course, you have hard factual evidence that Kremer's trial in Poland was a
"show" trial? No? I thought not. 

> >   Mr. Belling, when, exactly, did I "reject the statements of Jews who 
> >  confessed to committing ritual murder?" And if I did (or did not) what
> >  where my stated reasons? Please cite any and all such posts made by me or
> >  retract your statement. 
> 
> Then I ask you now for an opinion on the subject.

My opinion is that the subject is merely another red herring on your part,
Mr. Belling, and has nothing to do with the Hoklocaust. 

[snip]

> >  Irregardless, Mr. Belling, your "reasoning" is a text-book example of the
> >  fallacy of "Guilt by Association." Simply beacuse, for example, if it can
> >  be show that the confessions of Jews to committimg ritual murder were
> >  false and/or coerced does _not_ mean that the testimony of Kremer, in
> >  regard to his diary, while on trial in Poland is likewise false and/or
> >  coerced. 
> 
> Likewise, if the confessions of kremer were true, then it does not mean that
> the Jewish confessions were coerced. 

Er, no. What it means, Mr. Belling, is that they have nothing to do with
each other and that your attempt at linking the veracity of Kremer's
testimony to allegations of Jewish ritual murder is a classic example of
the fallacie of "Guilt by Association." 

> Watch it!  You are treading on egg  shells.--rb

No, Mr. Belling, your are trying to teach your granmother how to such eggs
and getting yolk all over your face. 

> >  Mr. Belling, if you are claiming, as you seem to be, that Kremer was
> >  tortured into giving a scripted testimony by the Poles (a serious
> >  accusation, btw) I would suggest you had better back up such allegations
> >  with facts. That is, of course, if you wish to be taken seriously. 
> 
> And I would ask you to demonstrate with facts that all ritual murder 
> testimonies and confessions were ALL induced by the use of torture.  

Why? They have nothing to do with the Holocaust. 

> I am saying that the probability that torture was used on kremer by the
Poles is VERY high. 

Then stop whining and _prove_ it with factual evidence that Kremer was
tortured. 

> And, yes, it IS a serious charge--as were the charges against him.  

Indeed. And convincing factual and ewewitness evidence was brought against
him. Part of which was his elaborations on his diary entries. 

> The convergence of evidence shows that the torture of German prisoners was 
> routinely practiced by all of the allies.  

No, in fact it,  the convergence of the evidence shows no such thing.
Please feel free to provide factual evidence to the contrary. 

> Like it or not--your wishing it to have been otherwise will not save you.--rb

Like it or not, Mr. Belling, your whistling in the dark is just that-
whistling in the dark. 

> >  Of course, you will not- as you _cannot_ -do this, which simply evidences
> >  that you are nothing more than a lying scumbag Nazi apologist. 
> >  
> >  And a poor one at that.
> 
> So you say.--rb

Indeed. You haven't dissapointed me yet!

> > > They were undoubtedly covered in excrement through no fault of their own, 
> > > therefore, Kremer uses the term "Anus Mundi".  
> > >   
> > > Er, no. If Mr. Belling weren't such a lying scumbag Nazi apologist, he
> > > would have the honesty to acknowledge that Kremer stated:
> > >   
> > > "...Being and anatomist I had seen many horrors, had to do with corpses,
> > > but what I saw then was not to be compared with anything seen ever before.
> > > It was under the influence of these impressions that I noted in my diary,
> > > under the date of September 5, 1942: 'The most horrible of all horrors.
> > > _Hauptsturmfu"hrer_ Thilo - was right saying today to me that we were
> > > located in the '_anus mundi_'. I had used this expression because I could
> > > not imagine anything more sickening and more horrible." (Ibid.) 
> >  > 
> >  > Yes.... 
> >  
> >  Er, "yes" _what_, Mr. Belling? Yes, Kremer was horrified at the murder of
> >  these women? Indeed so then. 
> 
> No--he was horrified at their CONDITION

No, Mr. Belling, Kremer, by his own elaborations on his diary entry
clearly states that he was horrfied by the women begging for their lives
and being gassed to death. 

> ...---Auschwitz was known to be a breeding ground for all sorts of
microscopic 
> infections which are not normally seen in our environment, 

Indeed. All of which can be laid at the feet of the Nazis who ran the camp. 

> ...except possibly in AIDS patients.  Diarrahea was a common symptom
> of these unfortunates people.  

Indeed. Privation, starvation, overwork, poor hygiene etc. most assuredly
can help cause this. 

>  ...Who can imagine what other festering ailments they
> were troubled with.  

Well, for starts, the SS doctors who intentionally inflicted many of these
diseases on many of the prisoners as part of their medical experiments. 

> This was the horror.  

 No, Mr. Belling,it was not.  Kremer, by his own elaborations on his diary
entry clearly states that he was horrfied by the women begging for their
lives and being gassed to death. 

> It was unlike anything he had ever seen  before outside of the foul muck 
> racked Auschwitz environment.--rb

Indeed. I finf it improbable that Kremer, in civilian life, seeing women
begging for their lives only to be driven into a gas chamber and murdered
in cold blood.  

> >  >I believe the reference refers to the ill and the dying and their 
> >  > deplorable physical condition due to their illnesses.--rb
> >  
> >  No, Mr. Belling, you quite wrong in your _belief_.  Taking into
> >  consideration Kremer's testimony that expanded in this entry particular in
> >  his diary, it self-evident that he was horrified at the _murder_ of these
> >  women. 
> 
> The testimony is a pack of lies invented to please his tormentors, as the Jews
> lied about allegations of ritual murder.--rb

Ah, when all else fails you cry, "Forgrery! Pack of lies! He was tortured!" 

What's next? "I want my mommy!" 

Pathetic. 

> > > > Also, I believe the exact quote should be:" They don;'t call Auschwitz 
> > > > the camp of annihilation for nothing." Typhus and dysentery consumes.  
> > > > They are wasting diseases.
> > >   
> > > Er, no. The passage from Kremer's diary in _KL Auschwitz_ (p.214) reads as
> > > follows:
> > >   
> > >   
> > >   
> > >   September 2,    Was present for first time at special action [49] at 
> > >   1942.           3 a.m. In comparison with it Dante's Inferno seems
> > >                   to be almost a comedy.[50] Auschwitz is justly called
> > >                   an extermination camp!
> > > 
> > >   
> > >   
> > > Well, he did not write this in English.  What is the original German?--rb
> >  
> >  Why don't _you_ go find out, Mr. Belling?  It is, after all, _you_ who are
> >  challenging this passgage! After all, do you not have many thousands of
> >  books in your "library?" Surely, such a "multi-lingual" "revisionist
> >  scholar" as yourself would have the Kremer's diary in German, yes? 
> 
> No--It is YOU who is quoting an English translation of this passage as
if it is gospel truth. 

Mr. Belling, _I'm_ not the one disputing the book. You are.

> Where is the original German text?

Er, in Germany? 

? --I cannnot help it if you are  envious of my abilities to converse in other 
> languages.--rb

And _I_ cannot help ypu with your deluded fantasies, Mr. Belling. 

> >  > Footnote 50 leaves no doubt that Kramer was refering to homicidal 
> >  > gassings when calling Auschwitz an extermination camp and _not_, as the 
> >  > lying scumbag Nazi apologist Mr. Belling fallaciously suggests, "typhus 
> >  > and dysentery." To whit: 
> 
> "Lying scumbag Nazi apologist" isn't going to help you here, Mark.
> people expect to hear MORE in the line of evidence from you and less in the 
> line of insults.  it is getting old.-and all too predictable.--rb

Indeed. Which was I supplied the footnote to the entry in Kremr's diary. 

> >  >   
> >  >   "50 Kremer was one of the defendants at the trial of the Auschwitz camp
> >  >   garrison. The trial took place at the sittings of the Supreme National
> >  >   Tribunal in Cracow in the time from November 24 till December 22, 1947.
> 
> 
> Yes, the "Supreme National Tribunal of Poland"....wasn't this the same sort
> of Tribunal which over and over again convicted the Jews of committing 
> horrifying ritual murders?--rb

Was it? I suppose you have the names of the tribunal judges for these
ritual murders as well as the names of the tribunal judges at Kremr's
trial? 

> > > During the interrogatory Kremer had been repeatedly questioned.
> 
> Yes, I'll bet he was.  I wonder how he was beaten, threatened, and
tortured as 
> well.--rb

And your evidence that Kremer was "beaten, threatened, and tortured" is?
What? You don't have any? You simply made up a mendacious accusation
because you are mboth intellectually and morally bankrupt? 

Ah, now _here's_ the place to call you a lying scumbag Nazi apologist!

Mr. Belling, you are a lting scumbag Nazi apologist!  

> > > It was then that he proffered detailed information on the subject of the 
> > > meaning of some of the entries in his diary. Excerpts from his 
> > > explinations are quoted in this publication under the respective dates. 
> > > In the official record of the interrogatory of August 18, 1947, Cracow, 
> > > Kramer stated as fallows: 'On September 2, 1942 at 3 a.m. I was already 
> > > assigned to take part in the action of gassing people. These mass murders 
> > > took place in small cottages situated outside the Birkenau camp in a 
> > > wood. These  cottages were called 'bunkers' (_Bunker) in the SS men's 
> > > slang. All SS surgeons, on duty in the camp, took turns to participate in 
> > > the gassings, which were called '_Sonderaktion_' (special action - 
> > > Editor's note). My part as surgeon at the gassing consisted in remaining 
> > > in readiness near the bunker. I was brought there in a car. I sat in
front 
> > > with the driver and an SS hospital orderly (SDG) sat in the back of the 
> > > car with an oxygen apparatus to revive SS men employed at gassing,
in case 
> > > any of them should succumb to the poisonous fumes.
> 
> Oh?  How is this, seeing they were all required to wear gas masks?  

Are you suggesting, Mr. Belling that a gas mask was required to sit in a
car? Or to stand in the open a ways away from the bunker? 

>...(See the testimony of SS Chief of Disinfection Artur Breitweiser, who 
> was NEVER convicted of any crimes.)- This order to wear gas masks with 
> special filters began from the first days of administrationof Zyklon B 
> in the camp as a disinfestation method.--rb

Yes, those who actually handled the Zyklon B and threw it into the gas
chambers whore gas masks. Of course, that wasn't Kremer's job....

> > > When the transport with people, who were destined for gassing, 
> > > arrived at the railway ramp, the SS officers selected from among the 
> > > persons fit to work and the rest - old people, all children, women 
> > > with children in arms and other persons not deemed fit to work - were 
> > > loaded upon lorries and driven to the gas-chambers. I used to follow 
> > > behind the transport till we reached the bunker. These people were
> > > first driven to barracks where the victims undressed and then went 
> > > nked to the gas-chambers. Very often no incidents occurred, as the 
> > > SS men kept people quiet, maintaining that they were to bathe and be 
> > > deloused. After driving all of them into the gas-chamber the door was 
> > > closed and an SS man in a gas-mask threw the contents of a Cyclon tin 
> > > through the opening in the side wall. SHouting and screaming of the 
> > > victims could be heard through that opening and it was clear that they 
> > > fought for their loves (_Lebebskampf). These shouts were heard for a 
> > > very short time. I should say for some minutes but I am unable to 
> > > give the exact span of time." (Ibid. p.214fn) 
> >  > 
> The old "party line".   Too bad there are obvious inconsistencies in it.--rb

Perhaps you would care to list them? No? I thought not. Just more frantic
hand waving. 

> >  > This testimony is not believeable.  

Why? Because You Say So? (Talk about the old "party line!") 

> >  > First of all, the Zyklon was supposedly thrown in through the
> >  > top of the roof--not through the side wall.  
> >  
> >  Incorrect. Kremer was descibing one of the _bunkers_ at Birkenau. These
> >  homicidal gassing bunkers where converted farm cottages and had gas-tight
> >  ports in their outside walls by which the Zyklon B was thrown in. (cf.
> >  Pressac, _Technique_, pp.171-182.) 
> >  
> >  > Second, compare with this testimony:
> >  
> >  [Mr. Belling's obviously relished claim of Jewish Ritual Murder snipped]
> >  
> >  And yout point was, Mr. Belling? What does a supposed account of a ritual
> >  murder of a priest by Jews have to do with Kremer's diary and testimony in
> >  Poland? 
> 
> You figure it out if you are so clever.--rb

Why nothing, of course. But you knew that -but had keep waving those hands.... 

> >  Why nothing, of course! You have simply presented yet again another smelly
> >  dead fish for our inspection. Obviously, as you alluded to this above, you
> >  are trying to "prove" that because claims of Jewish Ritual Murder are
> >  false that Kremer's testimony about his diary is false. Unfortunately for
> >  you, Mr. Belling, that dog don't hunt. 
> 
> Unfortunately for you--it does--and will be shoved in your face at every 
> opportunity to discredit your habit of always using accusation to convict 
> people instead of evidence.--rb

Translation: Mr. Belling will huff and puff and stamp his little feet
until he turns blue in the face and passes out. But nary a fact will he
offer. 

> >  Once again, Mr. Belling, such "reasoning" is a text-book example of the
> >  fallacy of "Guilt by Association." Simply beacuse, for example, if it can
> >  be show that the confessions of Jews to committimg ritual murder were
> >  false and/or coerced does _not_ mean that the testimony of Kremer, in
> >  regard to his diary, while on trial in Poland is likewise false and/or
> >  coerced. 
> 
> Sorry.  I disagree, and I maintain that such confessions were coerced and
> obtained by torture....  

Then prove rather than just flapping your gums and sounding liek a broken
(polka) record. 

> ...if you insist that all jewish testimonials to ritual murder were
coerced, I 
> will ask you to prove it.  

Why? They have nothing to do with Kremer's diary and testimony. Nor the
Holocuast. 

> Otherwise, we must believe the courts which sentenced them.--rb

Er, no. We need only believe the _courts_ that sentanced Kremer, as it is
the conclusive evidence provided at Kremaer's _trials_ that we are
concerned about. 

> >  Once, again, Mr. Belling, if you are claiming, as you seem to be, that
> >  Kremer was tortured into giving a scripted testimony by the Poles (a
> >  serious accusation, btw) I would suggest you had better back up such
> >  allegations with facts. That is, of course, if you wish to be taken
> >  seriously. 
> 
> I refer you to my previous comments.  

Hot air. 

> There is enough convergence of evidence to suggest that Germans were indeed 
> tortured to obtain such confessions.--rb

Translation: Mr. Belling will huff and puff and stamp his little feet
until he turns blue in the face and passes out. But nary a fact will he
offer. 

> >  Of course, Mr. Belling, you will not- as you _cannot_ -do this, which
> >  simply evidences that you are nothing more than a lying scumbag Nazi
> >  apologist. 
> >  
> >  And a poor one at that. But I repeat myself.
> 
> With no success, as before.--rb

Indeed you are! What's that makes you now. Zero for a thousand? 

Not even Little League material. Tsk tsk.


For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Dec 22 14:40:52 PST 1996
Article: 87640 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Now Playing....Irma Grese
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 18:22:34 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 35
Message-ID: 
References:  <59gjjt$cap@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <59gjjt$cap@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
> >
> nothing of interest
> > 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >  
> >>>>
> After the reading Kurt Stele just gave you, I'll leave you alone....even
I feel
> sorry for you, Mark.  Sad, really sad.........rb

Mr. Smith can _read_? Amazing. Will wonders never cease? Perhaps now he
can attept to master writing? And then _maybe_ thinking? (No, _that_ would
be too much to ask....) 

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Dec 22 14:40:52 PST 1996
Article: 87642 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Fuhrer's Gaze (Thank You, ourhero!)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 18:30:37 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 76
Message-ID: 
References:  <59glue$dd9@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <59glue$dd9@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
> 
> 
> >  
> >  Dr. Keren, Mr. Belling, the lying scumbag Nazi apologist, has currently
> >  fixated on the sadisctic Irma Grese as his latest Nazi idol. It has been
> >  said that Grese, the "blond Angel of Belsen," though a sadistic torturer
> >  and murderer, was quite beautiful. Given the obvious paucity of neurons
> >  between  Mr. Belling's ears, and his obvious crush on Grese, one cannot
> >  help but speculate that the sexually repressed Mr. Belling crossed a few
> >  too many of them and came up with
> >  "alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.pornstars. "
> 
> One thing I am not is sexually repressed.  

Prove it. };-> 

> Don't project your shortcomings on to me.  

I wouldn't think of it! You're far too "short" already! 

> I do not have a fixation on people who have been dead for over
> fifty years....

Really? Then why do you keep trying to deny that a bunch of dead Nazis
killed 12 million innocent people? 

> ...but I do dislike the fact that an innocent person was lynched by
> prejudiced and hateful people like yourself.

Really? And whom might this innocent person be? Your sadistic Nazi
sex-kitten Irma? 

Imagine that. Executing a person for taking part in the torture and mass
murder of innocent people!

> >  A Freudiuan slip perhaps? Or simply Mr. Belling's projecting yet another
> >  of Nazi fantasies? Either way, it simply highlights what a depravced and
> >  repulsive person Mr. Belling truly is. 
> 
> Spare us your insane drivel.  

Wrong person. Mr. McTavish is in charge of insane drivel. 

> Go tell it to the marines.  

Okaaaay... But when they find out what _you've_ been up to.... 

> You are getting absolutley nowhere pursuing this line of nonsense,
whether you 
> realize it.or not.--rb

On the contrary, you've once more done a _splendid_ job of evidencing that
you're a lying scumbag Nazi apologist. Makes _my_ task much easier,
thanks! 

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196
 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Dec 22 14:40:53 PST 1996
Article: 87650 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Truehe Runs Into Technical Difficulties
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 18:34:09 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 34
Message-ID: 
References: <59c4vg$ej1$3@gruvel.une.edu.au> <59gl53$dd9@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <59gl53$dd9@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   ibokor@metz.une.edu.au (ibokor) writes:
> >  rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
> >  
> >  : The whole quotation is obviously contrived.--rb
> >  
> >  The trouble with the obvious is that it is often not true.
> >  The trouble with the truth is that it is often not obvious.
> >  
> >  d.A.
> >  
> >>>>
> You fail to address the point.

While you simply fail to dress.

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Dec 22 16:38:00 PST 1996
Article: 87661 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Nazi discusses war crimes (And response to Chuck)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 14:00:01 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 70
Message-ID: 
References: <19961211054600.AAA13161@ladder01.news.aol.com>  <32b103b2.11320646@news.alt.net> <32b212ff.8941781@news.micron.net> <58uafn$csn@news.nyu.edu> <32b737e5.89408064@news.micron.net> <59b9dv$9tu@morgana.netcom.net.uk> <32bbb47d.104115726@news.micron.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32bbb47d.104115726@news.micron.net>, kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

> On Thu, 19 Dec 1996 11:40:52 GMT, amcl@netcomuk.co.uk (Angus M.
> McLellan) wrote:
> 
> >In article <32b737e5.89408064@news.micron.net>
> >kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt Stele/Brian Smith) "willettsed":

[snip]

> >>>>The US was destroying German vessels on the high seas before 1939 to
> >>>>provoke Hitler into a war.
> >>>
> >>>Uh, no.  The UK was destroying German vessels with US hardware, but
> >>>this was *after* the war began.
> >
> >>Wrong.  
> >
> >Is another revisionist triumph in the offing ? The USA sinking German
> >shipping pre-1939 ? Please, do tell us more.
> 
> Read:  "All I know if what my politically-correct mommy professors
> taught me.  Nothing more."

Contrast this to the deluded Nazi fantasies and propganda that Mr. Smith
substitues for an education! Would Mr. Smith care to wager a small sum,
say $100, in regard to his claim that "the US was destroying German
vessels on the high seas before 1939 to provoke Hitler into a war?"

I say that Mr. Smith, as usual, is dribbling shit from his lips and cannot
cite _one_ authoritative source to support his claim that the U.S. was
sinking ships under the flag of Nazi Germany _prior_ to 1939. Will Mr.
Smith rise to this challenge? Hmmm? 

Or will our brave Nazi, knowing he lied, tuck his tail and run away once more? 

[Mr. Smith's senile Nazi drooling snipped]

One can only wonder if Mr. Smith's keepers at the National Alliance
realize he has escaped his padded cell and is skulking about the digital
street corners haranguing passers-by with his insane diatribes? 

> At the Nuremberg Tribunal, chief U.S. prosecutor Robert Jackson
> charged that the Germans invented" a device to instantaneously
> "vaporize" 20,000 Jews near Auschwitz "in such a way that there was no
> trace left of them." IMT blue series, Vol. 16, p. 529-530. (June 21,
> 1946).  No reputable historian now accepts this fanciful tale. 

And only pathetic little Nazis like Mr. Smith keep repeating such lies.
The absolute moral and intellectual depravity of Mr. Smith and his Nazi
ilk in continuing to promulgate this is revealed at: 

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/j/jackson.robert/vaporizing-device-context

For those interested in proof of National Alliance member Brian Smith's
(aka "Kurt Stele") rabid anti-Semitism, pathological Nazi apologia, and
that he possses an IQ of a fence post (not to mention a sewer mouth)
please visit:

http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/stele.kurt
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/smith.brian.r

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Dec 22 16:38:02 PST 1996
Article: 87662 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!pumpkin.pangea.ca!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Paranoiac Rage (was: Re: Christ Killers! (was Re: Laughter is the Best Medicine)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 11:59:00 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 50
Message-ID: 
References: <199612100622.WAA28462@mailmasher.com> <58j86v$jrb@Networking.Stanford.EDU> <58q2qs$l9b$1@gryphon.phoenix.net>  <58rrgk$jo0$6@gryphon.phoenix.net>  <32B70B4B.4791@cais.com>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:53020 alt.revisionism:87662

In article <32B70B4B.4791@cais.com>, Mark Raven  wrote:

> Mark Van Alstine wrote:
> > ...
> > Now _why_ would I want to know more about Pollard? He has nothing to do
> > with the Holocaust and is nothing more than your Jewish whipping boy 
> 
> 
> (from another thread) 

Which thread? And where is a _authentic_ cite for this? 

Pollard transmitted targeting data, enabling Israel to viably threaten the
then-Soviet Union with nuclear attack, knowing that the USSR would
automatically respond by attacking the USA, and then most of the world
would be destroyed (the so-called "Samson Option").  

Uh huh. And the UN flies black helicopters around the USA and and has
hidden concentration camps in the boonies where it keeps unruly US
citizens.... 

  

How, pray tell, was Israel supposed to actually deliver nuclear weapons to
these targets without the Soviets realizing where they came from? Hmmm?

> This represents their idea of "security".  

Actually, given the recent political/militarty state of the MIddle-East,
Israel is actually fairly secure. In fact, the state of Israel is  more
secure than it has ever been. Not to mention, of course, that the IDF has
unquestionable military superiority over its Arab neighbors. 

Not to mention that the USA, who intersts are best served by a peaceful
Middle-East, excercises a certain amount of influence with Israel _and_
most of the her Arab neighbors.... 

> Pollard's crimes, if realized, would be far greater than any in history.

And certain people's delusions are pretty, well, _deluded_. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Dec 22 16:38:03 PST 1996
Article: 87676 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'Let them die, why should you care?'
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 16:19:24 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 76
Message-ID: 
References:  <59g5ho$30v@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <59g5ho$30v@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
> 
> >  The above is interesting in light of the fact that even though the food
> >  situation in Mu"nster (which was cut-off by the Allied [i.e. U.S.]
> >  advance) appeared not to be critical and people weren't starving to death,
> >  supplies were freely distributed from military stores. Yet at
> >  Bergen-Belsen, as we have seen, desperately needed rations were denied by
> >  Kramer to the thousands of prisoners ostensibly held in "protective
> >  custody" there. Prisoners who were starving, or had already starved, to
> >  death even though the nearby Panzergrenadier School held enough stores to
> >  help allieviate their condition (cf. Reitlinger, _SS: alibi of a nation_,
> >  p.425.)  
> >  
> >  And what was Kremer's excuse? That he had no authority to requistion
> >  supoplies from the Panzergrenadier School and thereofre didn't even bother
> >  to _ask_ if food could be spared to feed the starving proisoners! But then
> >  Kramer _also_ had  said in regard to his starving charges: "let them die,
> >  why should you care?"
> >  
> >  Mark
> 
> Well, I hate to jump in like this but.....

Then don't. 

> ...there certainly was a serious food shortage through-
> out Germany.  

And your evidence for this is, Mr. Belling? 

> Supplies had to be transported many miles to different locations.  

And your evidence for this is, Mr. Belling? 

> people in prisons are usually unaccustomed to receiving gourmet faire.  

But they are, I would assert, used to eating _something_. 

> Fact is, anyone familiar with the chain of command in the German Armed Forces 
> will know that it was impossible for Kramer to requisistion more food than he 
> was alloted for, as food also needed to be sent
> to other cities.  

And your evidence for this is, Mr. Belling? Specifiaclly, what is your
evidence that the stores at the nearby Panzergrenadier School was to be
sent to other cities? 

> For a detailed explanation of this mess, look for my repost of the kramer 
> trial.

Translation: Mr. Belling has no answer so he frantically waves his hands. 

> Hope it answers your questions, Doc.--rb

Only, I would inagine, if Mr. McTavish likes to watch your hand wave
rather frantically to and fro....

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Dec 22 16:38:04 PST 1996
Article: 87686 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Of Course Blackmore Doesn't call folks names
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 18:47:40 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 41
Message-ID: 
References: <32c12605.3040969@news.spry.com> <59gjm4$cap@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <59gjm4$cap@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   klewis@awinc.com (Ken Lewis) writes:
> >  On 18 Dec 1996 11:34:40 GMT, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
> >  
> >  
> >  >Perhaps if you would work at preserving your manners, you would
> >  >throw less of them.--rb
> >  
> >  Speaking of manners, how do you explain your statements that you
> >  are not a bigot with the following:
> >  
> >  Oh, I know. You didn't compose it, you merely passed it on.
> >  
> >  Sorry, it doesn't quite cut it. ("Honest, Dad, I'm not a bigot.
> >  Sure, I dress up in a sheet and stand around a burning cross with
> >  the boys but I'm just having some fun. Some of the others may
> >  mean it but not me. After all, I didn't light the cross.")
> 
> So this is your fantasy of me?  Quite funny....and quite erroneous.-rb

Indeed. (Mr. Blackmore forgot his sheet, but showed up anyways! Duh.) 

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Dec 22 23:08:36 PST 1996
Article: 87727 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!hookup!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!swrinde!sdd.hp.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Now Playing....Irma Grese
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 13:51:34 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 58
Message-ID: 
References:  <5963ch$sof@juliana.sprynet.com> <596i23$qcf@access5.digex.net> <32b76030.99723921@news.micron.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi143.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32b76030.99723921@news.micron.net>, kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

> On 17 Dec 1996 11:34:11 -0500, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
> Stein) wrote:
> 

[snip]

> >You know, if Auschwitz was meant to hold people in "protective
> >custody," the Nazis certainly did a piss-poor job.  Given the death rate,
> >the people being "protected" would have been safer in Berlin during the
> >final days of the Third Reich.
> 
> Given the assertion the intent purportedly was "extermination" the
> Germans certainly did a piss-poor job.  

So did the coathanger Mr. Smith's mother used.... Oh, well, I'm sure it
wasn't for a lack of trying. 

[[Mr. Smith's senile Nazi drooling snipped]

> At the Nuremberg Tribunal, chief U.S. prosecutor Robert Jackson
> charged that the Germans invented" a device to instantaneously
> "vaporize" 20,000 Jews near Auschwitz "in such a way that there was no
> trace left of them." IMT blue series, Vol. 16, p. 529-530. (June 21,
> 1946).  No reputable historian now accepts this fanciful tale.

And only pathetic little Nazis like Mr. Smith keep repeating such lies.
The absolute moral and intellectual depravity of Mr. Smith and his Nazi
ilk in continuing to promulgate this is revealed at: 

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/j/jackson.robert/vaporizing-device-context

For those interested in proof of National Alliance member Brian Smith's
(aka "Kurt Stele") rabid anti-Semitism, pathological Nazi apologia, and
that he possses an IQ of a fence post (not to mention a sewer mouth)
please visit:

http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/stele.kurt
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/smith.brian.r

"In Jerusalem there is a memorial site for the six million Jews murdered
by the Nazi's during World War 2. It is called Yad Vashem and was raised
1953. An avenue called "The Avenue of the Righteous" runs through this
site. The wind whispers continuously through the several hundred trees
planted there. Each and every tree has been planted to honor a non-Jewish
person risking his or her life to save Jews from the Nazi murderers." 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Dec 24 08:25:20 PST 1996
Article: 87897 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'Let them die, why should you care?'
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 00:26:14 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 68
Message-ID: 
References:  <59iocj$bp8@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi146.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <59iocj$bp8@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
> >  http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/buchenwald/images
> >  
> >  buchenwald01.jpg, buchenwald03.jpg:
> >  Emaciated corpses of the inmates.
> >  
> >  buchenwald02.jpg:
> >  Artifacts made from corpses of inmates.
> >  
> >  shrunken.jpg: 
> >  The shrunken head of an inmate.
> >  
> >  buchenwald04.jpg: 
> >  German civilians living near the camp, after the American troops 
> >  have taken them to Buchenwald to witness the horrors. Notice how 
> >  well-dressed and well-fed they are.
> >  
> >  
> >  -Danny Keren.
> >  
> >>>>
> Reply:
> 
> The emaciated corpses died from disease.

Extreme emaciation is generally a sign of starvation. 

> The artifacts allegedly made from corpses of inmates is a fraud.

And Mr. Beling's evidence of this is? Why none, of course. 

> The shrunken head came from a museum in South America.

And Mr. Beling's evidence of this is? Why none, of course. 

> The German civilians were not ill with typhus, which is spread by
> a germ.  

The vector for typhus is insect born. It is typically spread by the body
louse. Additionally, typhus epidemics are generally a product of poor
living conditions, such as the horrid living conditions the Nazis _forced_
the concentration camp prisoners to live in. Small wonder then that typhus
epidemics often broke out in the conentration camps.  

> It would take about 2 years of allied policy before the Germans
> living near Buchenwald would resemble the corpses in the photos.

And Mr. Beling's evidence of this is? Why none, of course. 

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Dec 24 08:25:21 PST 1996
Article: 87933 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!uunet!in2.uu.net!169.132.11.200!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Reply to Jim Stuart regarding Talmud "quotations"
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 02:46:28 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 27
Message-ID: 
References:  <59j29f$hr6@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi146.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <59j29f$hr6@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
> 
> 
> >  
> >>>>
> You haven't done a very good job of it Mark.  better brush up on those anal
> expletives you love to use.  In fact, your whole life seems to be one long, 
> uninterrupted anal expletive.

Mr. Belling, given that you could hardly know much about _my_ life, it
onbly goes that your fascination with things anal is simply you projecting
again. 

Seek professional help, Mr. Belling, before that dead rodent of your's
effects your health. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Dec 24 08:25:21 PST 1996
Article: 87937 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!xenitec!zenox.com!news2.insinc.net!news.insinc.net!news.bc.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!out2.nntp.cais.net!in1.nntp.cais.net!feed1.news.erols.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jews in Israel Hate Immigrants
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 02:30:45 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 110
Message-ID: 
References: <32a8c370.110136825@news.micron.net> <58d7bk$3jd$1@gryphon.phoenix.net> <58dri5$13m@lendl.cc.emory.edu>  <58mgp0$8f@news.usaor.net> <32AEEC55.76F0@columbia.edu> <58pr19$hfk@news.usaor.net> <32B0B96F.171D@ziplink.net> <32b1f14c.313026@news.micron.net> <32b368be.29313033@news.gte.net> <58vtcf$v8f@news.nyu.edu> <597m82$bbm$1@uhura.phoenix.net>  <597vg3$d2b$1@uhura.phoenix.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi143.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <597vg3$d2b$1@uhura.phoenix.net>,
"tavish@phoenix.net"@phoenix.net wrote:

[snip]

> I noticed how you snip my remarks but you leave in your comments, fine,
> this is expected of a sycophant to Nizkook. 

Er, no. Your paranoid delusions aside, Mr. McTavish, I regularly identify
and snip out others' comments when they are irrelevent to what I'm
responding to. It helps keep the post readable.

However, in the case of anti-Semitic _psychopaths_ and other Nazi "useless
eaters," such as yourself, I like to spice up my deleing attributions a
bit.


> I changed the posting. Mark don't be surprised if one of these days you will 
> be running your mouth and you will also call someone a "Nazi scum" to their 
> face (forgetting that you are not at your keyboard) and they in turn give you
> a mouth full of bloody chiclets. 

Yeah, yeah... Blah blah blah....

And yo' momma swims after troopships. 

> Of course they will be charged with a hate crime for picking on the chosen. 

Did I win _another_ lotto? Yippeee!

> I am not a Nazi but I still say I would rather be called a Nazi than a sneaky 
> little kike yid Jew. 

Well, there's no accouinting for poor taste, I suppose. But as you wish: 

Your a piece of Nazi filth, Mr. McTavish and a wretched excuse for a human
being.  

Feel better now? 


> You ahd beter not be insulted because I have told you the truth and I did not
> insinuate that you are a mass murderor which is what the term Nazi means
> as interpreted by society in general. 

Mr. McTavish, worry not, I rarely get insulted by Nazi scum. And believe
me your insults are bush-league. So don't flatter yourself too much or
your already swollen balloon-head might pop.  

> Call a person such names with what
> they carry as a meaning long enough they might just punch your lights
> out sneaky little kike yid Jew.

Couple of problems with this Nazi fantasy of yours, Mr. McTavish. Your
threats are hollow 'cause 1) I _don't_ run around calling innocent
passersby Nazis. 2) If some Nazi scum (like you for example) attempted to
assualt me, I'd promptly break their face for them and _then_ sue their
ass. 3) I'm not Jewish. 

BTW, did I mention that your mother swims after troopships? 

> Doc Tavish Not using any speech any more hateful than what we are
> constantly harangued with. 

More like Mr. McTavish trying to sound tough but being able to pull it off
because his balls haven't dropped yet. 

> Nizkor put this in your files BUT you had
> better put in Mark's remarks also. 

Mr. McTavish, you're _such_ a moron. 

Everything I post _is_ put in Nizkor "files:" 

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/v/van-alstine.mark


> I feel no more shame now caling an arrogant Jew a kike yid than they feel in 
> calling us trashies, drunken bums, Nazi scum- I am only reacting to how I am 
> treated. 

Now why am I not suprised by this, Nazi bumbboy? 

BTW, did I mention that your _father_ swims after troopships? 

> When has the tribe of Judah ever apologized? 

Gee, not being of "the tribe of Judah," I haven't the slightest idea.... 

> This should explain why people 
> alwayswind up hating Jews throughout the centuries.

No, it "explains" that you are a Nazi bumboy. Bend over and get used to it. 

"In Jerusalem there is a memorial site for the six million Jews murdered
by the Nazi's during World War 2. It is called Yad Vashem and was raised
1953. An avenue called "The Avenue of the Righteous" runs through this
site. The wind whispers continuously through the several hundred trees
planted there. Each and every tree has been planted to honor a non-Jewish
person risking his or her life to save Jews from the Nazi murderers." 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Dec 24 08:25:22 PST 1996
Article: 87944 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!worldnet.att.net!news.dra.com!xara.net!emerald.xara.net!news.thenet.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Truehe Runs Into Technical Difficulties
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 03:16:06 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 38
Message-ID: 
References:  <59j2c6$hr6@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi146.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <59j2c6$hr6@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
> >  In article <59gl7i$dd9@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
> >  
> >
> 
> >  > Someone with an IQ of 90 would have thought up a better lie.--rb
> >  
> >  Why? You never do. 
> 
> 
> >  
> >>>>
> That's a peculiar comment from someone with the IQ of a common
> pin worm.

Speaks volumes then that a "common pin worm" can constantly demolish your
lying scumbag Nazi aplogia, yes? 

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Dec 24 08:25:23 PST 1996
Article: 87966 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!xenitec!zenox.com!news2.insinc.net!ocean.netrover.com!amberjack.netrunner.net!news1.agis.net!agis!news.minn.net!visi.com!mr.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mr. Gandhi's "handle"
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 02:48:00 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 51
Message-ID: 
References: <596vbg$8cs@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <598htr$b93@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi143.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <598htr$b93@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) writes:
> >  rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
> >  
> >  : Rahter than go through all that, perhaps Mr. McFee and Mr. Gandhi 
> >  : shall answer the question directly.
> >  
> >  What question?  Whether they're Jewish?
> >  
> >  How about you answer this one, Mr. Belling:  how does it come to be that, 
> >  just a few short months after showing up here posing as an objective 
> >  truth-seeker, you were spotted exchanging antisemitic nursery rhymes with
> >  Harold Covington of the National Socialist White People's Party?  How 
> >  difficult was it to fake indignation at being called "Nazi-boy," knowing
> >  all along that you were indeed a Nazi, in the literal sense of the term?
> >  And lastly:  do you have any shame at all?
> >  
> >  Bill
> >  
> >>>>
> Indeed I am not a Nazi nor am I anti-Semitic.  I do not know Harold Covington,
> but the NSWPP began sending me email months ago.  I asked them how they
> happened to select me for the email, but I never received an answer.  The 
> "nursery rhymes", as you call them, came from an anti-semitic newspaper.  
> Simply because I posted it doesn't mean I am an anti-Semite, any more than if 
> you posted something from a Nazi would make you one of them.

And Mr. Belling's "niece" was trying to pick-up teenage boys over the
Internet too. 

Uh-huh. And pigs have wings. 

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196
 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Dec 24 08:25:24 PST 1996
Article: 87980 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!uunet!in2.uu.net!169.132.11.200!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel
Subject: Re: 961214: The teeth of Mrs. Aristotle
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 06:47:28 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 203
Message-ID: 
References:  <599dul$fou@Networking.Stanford.EDU> <32d8fcc4.15401811@news.mbay.net>  <59k0kg$kjq@access1.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi146.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:87980 alt.fan.ernst-zundel:3257

In article <59k0kg$kjq@access1.digex.net>, mstein@access1.digex.net
(Michael P. Stein) wrote:

> In article ,
> Chris Winkler  wrote:

[snip]

> >It takes the BTU equivalent of 200 lbs. (1/10th ton) of coal to cremate a
> >human body.
> 
> No source or conditions are given for this figure; 

Walter Mu"ller claimed that a _cold_ furnace's _first_ incineration would
require about 175 kg of coke; a furnace that had been used the day before
would need only 100 kg; that the second and third incinerations on the
same day would not require _any_ additinal coke and that any subsequent
incinerations would require only "small amounts" of coke. (cf. Gutman,
_Anatomy_, pp.185-186.)

Given that at Auschwitz during 1943, for example, the "special actions"
occurred periodically and generally lasted about a week or so, the
furnaces worked non-stop and were never cooled between incinerations. That
would imply _one "cold start" (175 kg), three (free muffle charges) and
"small amounts" of coke thereafter per furnace until _all_ the corpses
murdered in the "special action" were incinerated. 

> I find it difficult to believe that a materials handling engineer is also 
> a skilled crematorium operator.  Now, is that figure the total required to 
> bring the oven up from a cold start to do the first body?  Because once an 
> oven is going, the body is itself fuel.  The second body does not require 
> the full 200 lbs. if it is introduced into an oven still hot from the previous
> cremation.

Indeed the amount of energy liberated by burning a corpse would reduce the
amount of coke needed to keep the furnaces hot enough to cremate the
corpse. Fats, in general, when burned, release (on average) 37.7 kJ/g of
heat energy. That's more than coal does, which is (on average) 32.8 kJ/g.
Carbohydrates and proteins yield about 17 kJ/g when burned. Assuming the
"average" corpse incinerated at Auschwitz weighed 50 kg, and had a mean
body of fat ratio of 14%, and if whe assume that the skeleton comprises
11% of body weight, this should mean that the the body should have the
energy equivalent of about 27 kg of coal, or about 786,000 BTU's. This is
simply a rough assumption, of course, but it gives a general idea to the
amount of energy locked up inside a human body. (cf. Ebbing, _General
Chemistry_, (third edition), pp.212,213,1029.) 

> The Auschwitz ovens used a multiple-retort design, which feeds
> multiple burning chambers from the same oven.  I am not aware of a single
> commercial crematorium which uses such equipment.  I cannot say what fuel
> efficiency this gains, but it seems likely that it would provide some -
> else why bother to design such a model in the first place? 
> 
> >Therefore, approximately 800 million pounds or 400,000 tons of
> >coal would be required. It would strain credulity to believe that Hitler
> >would commit this amount of resource energy to the cremation of Jews during
> >wartime especially when they were capable of converting coal to various
> >other fuels.

Fortunartely, to help give an accurate idea of the Kremas' coke
consuption, some 240 coke delivery reciepts for Auschwitz survived the
war. The overall coke consumption, for example, for the seven months from
April to October 1943, for _all_ the Kremas was 497 tonnes. (cf. Pressac,
_Technique_, p.224.) Obviously, Mr. Winkler's claim that "400,000 tons of
coal would be required" is, to but it kindly, greatly exaggerated. 

> It strains credulity to believe that Hitler would commit the resources
> he did to rounding up the Jews in the first place.  But somehow
> "revisionists"  who make arguments about how illogical such-and-such would
> have been never seem to be able to grasp the big one above.  So do we
> conclude that the concentration camps themselves were hoaxes? 

Well, given that Auschwitz, which was located in Upper Silesia, and was
smack in the middle of rich coal fields. I find it hard to believe that
_access_ to vast amounts coal was a problem. Especially so since Upper
Silesia was not targeted by Allied bombers until nearly _after_ homicidal
gassings at Birkenau ceased! Air photos of the IG Farben plant at
Moniwitz, which was just a few miles away from Birkenau, show a veritable
mountain of coal present there! How hard would it be, for example, to send
a few transports of coke, via railroad, from Monowitz to Birkenau? Not
very I would argue. 

> >In 1991, the Russians released captured German records of operations at
> >Auschwitz. The records show a death toll of 74,000 of a wide myriad of
> >ethnic backgrounds.
> 
>     I believe you will find that those records are not complete - that is,
> they do not even cover all the months of operation.

Additionally, it should be recognized that these deaths applied to the
_registered_ prisoners. The Jews who were sent to the gas chambers
immediately upon arrival at Auschwitz were never registered. It is
therefore rather unlikely that their deaths were ever recorded in these
regsisters

> >As we saw above, the crematoria had a capacity of 15 a
> >day.
> 
> [Note: '15' is a typo for 75 above.]
> 
> >Given a maximum of 1,000 days, Auschwitz could have handled 75,000
> >which is in keeping with expected deaths.
> 
>     There were 46 ovens in Birkenau and six more in Auschwitz for a total
> of 52.  You are telling us that each oven could handle only 1-1/2 bodies
> in a 24-hour period.  Even on the six-hour figure given above, and with 12
> hours downtime, the minimum capacity should have been 104 a day. 
> Something seems very wrong with this engineer's math.  But as I have
> discussed above, there is no reason to think that the six-hour figure had
> any relevance to the operations at Auschwitz, and several reasons to think
> otherwise. 

Indeed. When the trial start-up up of the furnaces in Krema too place it
took 40 minutes to incinerate 45 corspes. A time the Nazis considered to
be unexpectedly too long: 

Czech, _Auschwitz Chronicle, 1939-1945_, p.345.

Reference: APMO, D-Mau-3a/16408. Personal-Information Card for Mieczyslaw
Morawa; D-AuI-sa/101, Confirmation of Bruck¹s Arrival
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

March 5  [1943]

During a test heating of the ovens in Crematorium II in Birkenau, the Capo
August Bruck, who has just been transferred from Buchenwald, explains the
construction of the ovens to the prisoners in the Special Squads and
familiarizes them with the instructions for use. The generators run from
morning until 4:00 P.M. In the course of the day, a commission arrives
made up of higher-level SS people from Berlin, members of the camp
management, function of the camp¹s Political Department, as well as
engineers and employees of the firm of J.A. Topf and Sons in Erfurt, which
built the crematorium ovens. In their presence, member of the Special
Squad stoke the 15 retorts of the five crematorium ovens with 45 corpses.
With clock in hand, the members of the commission time the cremation of
the corpses, which at 40 minutes takes an unexpectedly long time. The
Special Squad is therefore ordered to let the generators run constantly
for several days so the ovens get heated up. Participating at the trial
start-up of the crematorium ovens, which lasts from March 4 to March 6, is
the Head Capo August Bruck and Mieczyslaw Morawa (No. 5730), the Capo of
Crematorium I who was ordered to Birkenau for the test. Afterward he
returns to the main camp.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

>     And this is before we consider any disposal of bodies on pyres.

Indeed. About _half_ of the 394,000 Hungarian Jews murdered in Aktion
Ho"ss were burned in the incineration pits. 

> >Nothing above is meant to diminish the terror and tragedy of what took
> >place at Auschwitz, it is merely an examination from an engineering
> >standpoint.

Of course not. :-/ 

Too bad Mr. Winkler's "examination from an engineering standpoint" is a farce.

> >The claim of 4 million at Auschwitz is not even a good lie. It is not even
> >a bad lie. In order for it to be a lie at all, it must have some
> >believability. This claim has none.
> 
>     And serious Western historians have agreed since Reitlinger in the
> '50s.  I think that strawman is dead.
> 
> 
> >Some time ago, I read of the Anne Frank Diary hoax and how her Father,
> >Otto, had plagiarized another literary work and palmed it off as his
> >daughter's. At that time I was disturbed that a human could descend to such
> >a vile endeavor as to make a buck off his dead daughter.
>
> Unfortunately our revisionist engineer somehow missed the extensive
> forensic testing done on the diary by the Netherlands State Forensic
> Institute which conclusively showed that the diary was, indeed, written by
> Anne Frank.  It appears that Robert Faurisson lied, to put it bluntly.
> There were some ballpoint pen markings, but they were very few, clearly in
> a different hand, and were added during the preparation of the diaries for
> publication.  Any honest person would have recognized and reported that.

Indeed. Fortunately, as Mr. Stein has noted,  Faurisson's lie has been
thouroughly debunked: 

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/f/frank.anne/holland.003

Yet Mr. Winkler rushes to (ignorantly?) give lip service to such lies. Why? 

> Anyway, there are some answers for you.  You may accept them, you may
> not, but I hope you now at least accept that you were quite wrong when you
> said that there was no answer possible to the Zundelsite.

Inded. The question, rather, is why does the Zundelsite (and Mr. Winkler)
have no credible "answer" to the historical evidence that supports the
veracity of the Holocaust? 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Dec 24 08:25:24 PST 1996
Article: 87992 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!uunet!in2.uu.net!205.252.116.190!feed1.news.erols.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Belling sees trap, dives in
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 07:57:27 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
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In article <59hnnf$9h0@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
> >  In article <59g5tj$30v@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
> >  
> >  > >   gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) writes:
> >  > 
> >  > 
> >  > >  
> >  > >  [end quote]
> >  > >  
> >  > >  
> >  > >  --
> >  > >  Gord McFee
> >  > >  I'll write no line before its time
> >  > >  
> >  > >  
> >  > >>>>
> >  > Yawn.  It's getting old, Gord.  It really is.--rb
> >  
> >  Not nearly as old as that dead rodent up your butt, Mr. Belling.....
> >  
> >  For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
> >  Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:
> >  
> >  http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
> >  http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
> >  http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
> >  http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196
> >  
> >  Mark
> >  
> > 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >  "Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and
evil passes 
> >  not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
> >  right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 
> >  
> >  -- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
> > 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >  
> >>>>
> Did you really crawl up there, Mark?  Yuk.

Nope. It was your "niece," Mr. Belling. Sicko. Tsk tsk. 

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semtism, and outright lies,
please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Dec 24 08:25:25 PST 1996
Article: 87997 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel
Subject: Re: 961214: The teeth of Mrs. Aristotle
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 08:35:16 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
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In article , christ@adnc.com
(Chris Winkler) wrote:

[snip]

> "I am a mechanical engineer, and have principally worked in the materials
> handling field. 

Translation: Mr. Winkler shovels bullshit. 

> Having mega doses of "Holocaust" force-fed to me via my
> visual and audio senses, I have decided to review the available data from a
> standpoint of having to engineer such a project.

Translation: Mr. Winkler shovels bullshit. 

> Let us examine the claim that 4 million Jews perished at Auschwitz.

Indeed, let's: 

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/4-million-variant
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/4-million-variant-02
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/gambit.001

> 
> At the close of the war (1945), there were 15 (5 sets of 3 each) crematoria
> found at Auschwitz by the Allies. 

No, there were not. The incineration furnaces of Kremas II, III, and IV
were dismantled and removed prior to the Nazis abandoning Auschwitz.
(Thety were reportedly shipped to other concentration camps.) The furnaces
of Krema V were dynamited along with the Krema itself. The only furnaces
that remianed at Auschwitz were those that once operated in Krema I. These
furnaces were dismantled and stored in the Auschwitz Bauhof, found after
the war, and (partially) rebuilt as part of the reconstruction of Krema I
by the Aushwitz-Birkenau State Museum. 

> I checked a local undertaker and also a crematoria and they informed me
that it takes 4-6 hours to cremate a human body.

>From  the "Internet Cremation Society FAQ:"

"...The temperature at which cremations are done vary based upon the retort
manufacturer, but most machines operate between 1,500 to 1,900 degrees F.
The actual cremation time again varies depending upon the type of machine.
Low capacity retorts take approximately 3 hours to complete a cremation
while high capacity machines takes less than one hour. In addition to the
type of retort, the size of the individual and the number of cremations
conducted during the day also affect the time. For example, in the retort
we operate, the first cremation of the day takes about two hours and the
second takes about an hour. That is because the retort already has a high
internal temperature at the beginning of the second cremation."
 
Dource: http://www.cremation.org:80/faq.shtml#At what temperature

> Given an average of 5 hours each, a maximum of 75 bodies could be
> disposed of in a given day.

[Mr. Winkler's drivel snipped as it has been previously addressed]

> Approximately 1/10th the body weight is converted to ash 

>From  the "Internet Cremation Society FAQ:"

"...After the cremation process is complete, all that is left is very
brittle bone fragments. Many of the bones are still distinguishable
although not fully intact. Technically, there are no ashes left at all but
the term "ashes" is used to describe what is referred to as cremated
remains or cremains. The pieces of bone fragments are then processed into
a fine powder and placed in the urn selected. What remains after the
cremation process is approximately 5 to 7 pounnds of cremated remains."

Source: http://www.cremation.org:80/faq.shtml#What's left after a

> ...so that there should be 25,000 tons of ash remaining. 

Given that between 1.1 million and 1.5 million people (mostly women and
children) were murdered and incinerated at Auschwitz, that would imply,
assuming 5 pounds of remains per victim, between 2,500 tons and 3,750 tons
of human remains. 

> Where is it?

The remains were generally dumped in the Vistula River, nearby ponds, used
as compost, and spread across the fields of the camp farms around
Auschwitz. (cf. Gutman, _Anantomy_, p.171.) 

> If the bodies were not cremated, there should be an incredible 500 million
> pounds or 250,000 tons of carcasses about. Where are they?

A moot point as the victims of Nazis mass murder _were_ cremated. 

[Mr. Winkler's irrelevant "pyramid" drivel snipped]

[Mr. Winkler's remaining drivel snipped as it has been previously addressed]

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Dec 24 08:25:26 PST 1996
Article: 87998 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!freenet.unbc.edu!news.scn.org!news.abs.net!washington.Capitol.Net!feed1.news.erols.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.rel.christian,alt.religion.islam
Subject: Re: Nazi Atrocities?
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 02:04:42 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 175
Message-ID: 
References: <594sos$s6k$1@uhura.phoenix.net> <597b3d$b9j@news.nyu.edu> <597ikg$430@lex.zippo.com> <59aecc$nnf$1@uhura.phoenix.net>  <59aru4$3t2@lex.zippo.com>  <59hd1t$bp5@lex.zippo.com>
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In article <59hd1t$bp5@lex.zippo.com>, Ourobouros wrote:

> In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
says...
> >
> >In article <59aru4$3t2@lex.zippo.com>, Ourobouros wrote:
> >
> >> In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
> >says...
> >> >
> >> >In article <59aecc$nnf$1@uhura.phoenix.net>,
> >> >"tavish@phoenix.net"@phoenix.net wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Ourobouros wrote:
> >> >> > 
> >> >> > In article <597b3d$b9j@news.nyu.edu>, fresh@scscomm.com says...
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >Doc Tavish <"tavish@phoenix.net"@phoenix.net> wrote:
> >> >> > >
> >> [genocide, slashing, stabbing snipped]
> >> 
> >> >> The records (Biblical) show the Israelites (their perspective) as being
> >> >> the only ones going on their search and destroy missions....
> >> >
> >> >Mr. McTavish, do the words "Sumer," "Akkad," and "Babylonia" ring a
bell?    
> >> >
> >> Not one of these groups were genocidal.
> >
> >And your evidence for this is?
> >
> Studying them.  

Feel free to cite what you have "studied.". What? You didn't study any
such thing? Oops.

> Please point out cases of genocide in any group other than
> Jews in B.C. (ancient) times.  I'm waiting...

Actually, I think it best that _you_ first document the historical
evidence for genocide by the Israelites. 

> >> >> ...as best as I know we have no records from the others involved... 
> >> >
> >> >Hardly suprising, Mr. McTavish, as the _first_ recorded battle in history
> >> >was the Battle of Megiddo in 1469 B.C. (cf. Dupuy, _The Harper
> >> >Encyclopedia of Military History_, p.5.) 
> >> >
> >> I believe that would be out of date.  With more and more records being
> >> recovered from Mesopotamia, unknown battles have come to the fore.
> >
> >Feel free to cite them. What? You don't know of any off-hand? Pity. 
> >
> You could read some modern (comprehensive) books of Sumeria, meathead.

Again, feel free to cite them. What? You don't know of any off-hand? Pity. 

> >> [snip]
> >> 
> >> >> You are correct about the stabbing part and that is why modern bayonets 
> >> >> have  blood grooves (to facilitate withdrawal).
> >> >
> >> >Interesting. Is there a cite for this? 
> >> >
> >> It is an extremely common belief that the fullers were made as blood 
> >> channels.  
> >
> >So were sea monsters. So was the belief that if one sailed to far out to
> >sea one would fall of the edge of the world....
> >
> Whoopee do.

Whoopee do indeed. So much for _your_ "beliefs" about "blood channels."
Obviously if you cannot substantoate such "beliefs" they need not be taken
seriously....

> >> Even people in the know believe this, and I would think that a
> >> goodly number of books on swords would record it as so.  One other category
> >> I forgot to list in another post is fullers add strength to the weapon
> >> (daggers and knives often come with fullers.)
> >
> >Again, do you have an authoritative _citation_ for this? 
> >
> Offhand citation no, but I do make the occasional sword and dagger, plus I
> fight with them.

Uh huh. Obviously if you cannot substantoate such "beliefs" they need not
be taken seriously....

> >> >> If we could see pictures of Israelite carnage and what the corpses of
> >> >>their victims- men, women and children looked like it would be just as 
> >> >> graphic asNizkook's pictures.
> >> >
> >> >Indeed. But then, so would carnage caused by the Egyptians, Assyrians,
> >> >Greeks, Romans, Mongols, Turks, etc.. 
> >> >
> >> Not one of these groups believed in genocide of ethnic groups.  
> >
> >Tell that, for example, to the Carthegians and Armenians. 
> >
> The Armenians would be the exception, but they were rather recent.

So? 

> >> One could twist the Roman sack of Carthage as one case, and Athens in the 
> >> Peloponnesian war on revolting and democratic states (please note Mr.
> >> Ledgister, democratic states fight each other.)
> >
> >During the Third Punic War Rome was not a democracy like, for example, the
> >United States during WWII. (Fabius Maximus was appointed dictator.) 
> >Neither was Carthage, merely "sacked." Carthage was laid waste. Erased.
> >Nine tenths of the population of died in the fall of Carthage, the city
> >torched and its walls torn down, the survivors sold as slaves, and by
> >order of the Roman Senate it was decreed that no one was allowed to live
> >where Carthage once stood. 
> >
> >Cf. Dupuy, _The Harper Encyclopedia of Military History_, p.99-100;
> >http://www.idbsu.edu:80/courses/hy101/punicwar/09.htm;
> >http://www.idbsu.edu:80/courses/hy101/punicwar/17.htm. 
> >
> Meathead, I was referring to Athens....

Sorry, you weren't very clear on this when you included Rome in the same
sentance. I suggest you try and be more clear in the future....

> ...and her subject states being democracies, please read the history of the 
> Peloponnesian war in respect to Athens, Mitylene (revolt) and Samos.

Why? _I_ was talking about Rome. 

> As for Carthage; brutal as it was, this was still not an act of genocide...

Funny that there were no more Carthegians after Rome destroyed Carthage.... 

> for the other settlements of Carthaginians were not eradicated...

What _other_ settlements? BY the Third Punic War Carthage was stripped of
all her territories and colonies except for Carthage itself. 

> ie., there was no active genocidal program, the city of Carthage was _the_ 
> enemy of Rome.

Tell that to the Carthegians who were killed and enslaved. 

> >> >And, of course, the Nazis. Except the for the millions they gassed and
> >> >starved to death. Homicidal gassings and starvation don't cause stab
> >> >wounds....
> >> >
> >> Starvation is hardly new -- sieges come to mind.  
> >
> >Indeed. But the Nazis didn't lay siege to the POW and concentration camps
> >they built and manned- and the the prisoners they starved to death there. 
> >
> Getting food to them would have become an immense problem.
> 
> >And, of course, they also murdered millions in them (i.e. the
> >extermination camps) via homicidal gassings. That, at least, _was_
> >something horrifyingly new. 
> >
> And your primary source material for this is?

And _your_ primary source material contradicting this is? What? You don't
have any? 

How typical.  

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Dec 24 08:25:27 PST 1996
Article: 88004 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!freenet.unbc.edu!news.scn.org!news.abs.net!washington.Capitol.Net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.rel.christian,alt.religion.islam
Subject: Re: Nazi Atrocities?
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 02:06:50 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 41
Message-ID: 
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In article <32bc7c41.155263594@news.micron.net>, kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

[snip]

> Kurt Stele
> 
> At the Nuremberg Tribunal, chief U.S. prosecutor Robert Jackson
> charged that the Germans invented" a device to instantaneously
> "vaporize" 20,000 Jews near Auschwitz "in such a way that there was no
> trace left of them." IMT blue series, Vol. 16, p. 529-530. (June 21,
> 1946).  No reputable historian now accepts this fanciful tale.

And only pathetic little Nazis like Mr. Smith keep repeating such lies.
The absolute moral and intellectual depravity of Mr. Smith and his Nazi
ilk in continuing to promulgate this is revealed at: 

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/j/jackson.robert/vaporizing-device-context

For those interested in proof of National Alliance member Brian Smith's
(aka "Kurt Stele") rabid anti-Semitism, pathological Nazi apologia, and
that he possses an IQ of a fence post (not to mention a sewer mouth)
please visit:

http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/stele.kurt
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/smith.brian.r

"In Jerusalem there is a memorial site for the six million Jews murdered
by the Nazi's during World War 2. It is called Yad Vashem and was raised
1953. An avenue called "The Avenue of the Righteous" runs through this
site. The wind whispers continuously through the several hundred trees
planted there. Each and every tree has been planted to honor a non-Jewish
person risking his or her life to save Jews from the Nazi murderers."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Dec 24 08:25:28 PST 1996
Article: 88012 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!hookup!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!news.sgi.com!sdd.hp.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: A Nazi replies to a War Criminal
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 13:43:24 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 50
Message-ID: 
References: <32A2CDAA.7C19@rio.com>  <5967tr$5h8@news1.io.org> <32b75eda.99382748@news.micron.net>
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In article <32b75eda.99382748@news.micron.net>, kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

> On Tue, 17 Dec 1996 16:41:17 GMT, av118@torfree.net (Ivan Gowch)
> wrote:
> 
> >On Sun, 08 Dec 1996 09:14:33 GMT, jstuart@tristar.org (Jim Stuart)
> >wrote:
> >
> >       [Lotsa psychotic raving snipped]
> >
> >=>Open your mind to the Fuhrer's message,
> >=>and to the wisdom of His work, Mein Kampf.  Listen to the call
> >=>of the blood, Chuck, and join us!  Remove your guilt with the
> >=>pure light of the Fuhrer's truth!
> >
> >       Ah yes, the pure light of the truth propagated by the sickest
> >motherfucker the world has ever known.
> 
> Based on what?  Holohugger delusions?
> 
> >=> Proud to be a member of the National Socialist White People's Party!
> >
> >       That's like saying, proud to be a member of the Brigade of Bowery
> >Squeegee Guys and Other Pathetic Losers.
> 
> Certainly no worse than pimping for the synogogue front-organization
> Nizkor or Jewish parasitical state Israel which kills and torture
> Palestinians legally.

Ah, Mr. Smith is just torqued 'cause he found out his mother used to swim
after Allied troopships....

For those interested in proof of National Alliance member Brian Smith's
(aka "Kurt Stele") rabid anti-Semitism, pathological Nazi apologia, and
that he possses an IQ of a fence post (not to mention a sewer mouth)
please visit:

http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/stele.kurt
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/smith.brian.r

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Dec 24 08:25:28 PST 1996
Article: 88044 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: RBlackmore, spews more bile and chokes on it... Re: 'However, they were herded into the gas chambers and gassed'
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 23:43:49 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 52
Message-ID: 
References: <59iffh$ri2$21@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <59j26f$hr6@juliana.sprynet.com>
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In article <59j26f$hr6@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) writes:
> >  In message <59gkuu$dd9@juliana.sprynet.com> - rblackmore@juno.com21
Dec 1996
> >  12:25:02 GMT writes:
> >  
> >  [deleted]
> >  
> >  :>Well, how about the truth, which is something you don't understand very
> >  :>well, as you say that I am a nazi shill and associate of a man I
have never
> >  :>met or conversed with in my life.  But, no matter to old Mark...if
he can just
> >  :>throw enough mud......just a little more mud.......just a few more
insults.....
> >  :>perhaps people will forget how little he has to offer on alt
revisionism.....rb
> >  
> >  Then why are you exchanging little antisemitic ditties with him, rb?
> >  
> >  
> >  --
> >  Gord McFee
> >  I'll write no line before its time
> >  
> >  
> >>>>
> Who beside you said anything about exchanging a ditty?

Oh, right. _You_ sent Mr. Covington a little anti-Semitic ditty as part of
your corrospondance with him. What's little a ditty or two between
despicable anti-Semites anyways....

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Dec 24 08:25:29 PST 1996
Article: 88046 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: RBlackmore, spews more bile and chokes on it... Re: 'However, they were herded into the gas chambers and gassed'
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 23:45:42 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 29
Message-ID: 
References:  <59j24m$hr6@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi146.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <59j24m$hr6@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   
> 
> >  
> >>>>
> Your bravado is about as inspiring as the smell of Brother Juniper's feet.

This from a lying scumbag Nazi apologist, and despicable anti-Semite, who
exudes the scent of dead rodents....

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From alt.usenet.kooks Tue Dec 24 08:25:30 PST 1996
Article: 88077 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: DIE NAZI SCUM!!!
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 08:47:53 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 27
Message-ID: 
References: <32A5E11A.1B6F@rand.nidlink.com> <585j1b$i3n@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <58d63e$84q$1@gryphon.phoenix.net> <58dq7c$13m@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <58fmet$crj$1@gryphon.phoenix.net> <58n7ue$an8@snow.btinternet.com> <32AF6728.4098@nbnet.nb.ca> <58pblk$3er$1@gryphon.phoenix.net> <32b47f39.74109350@206.98.16.3> <32b0d785.14258969@news.gte.net> <32b78aa9.142583768@news.nethawk.net> <32b2e2d2.3482025@news.gte.net> <597rdr$br6$4@uhura.phoenix.net>
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In article <597rdr$br6$4@uhura.phoenix.net>,
"tavish@phoenix.net"@phoenix.net wrote:

[snip]

> Another sterling and shining example of the "chosen"- ask an honest
> question and I gues get an honest answer. The answer given may in fact
> explain dislike of Jews- their open arrogance and the feeling of
> immunity from being held acountable. Again look at his choice of
> language. It is people such as this foul mouthed person that bring
> reproach on good Jews.
> Doc Tavish pointing out the chosen's obvious conceit

Speaking of conceit....

"And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but
considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?" (Matthew  7:3; KJV.) 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Dec 24 08:25:31 PST 1996
Article: 88132 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: JEWS TRY AGAIN TO CLOSE DOWN ZUNDELSITE ON WWW
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 08:05:26 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 58
Message-ID: 
References:   <329DBCC1.7F71@total.net> <329E2265.471A@vir.com>  <32A09D07.4D78@interlog.com>   <32aba194.14754856@news.direct.ca>  <32ad0ae9.2999893@news.gte.net> <58mu5j$qf9$1@gryphon.phoenix.net> <32b0cf22.8374744@news.inetworld.net> <32b33bb9.18196103@news.gte.net> <32b8a939.5261869@news.inetworld.net> <32ba03ce.4038031@news.gte.net> <32bc5c0f.6529099@news.inetworld.net>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:88132 soc.culture.canada:103875

In article <32bc5c0f.6529099@news.inetworld.net>, rcf@inetworld.net wrote:

> On Fri, 20 Dec 1996 03:13:22 GMT, octagon@septa.gon (Up front) wrote:
> 

[The Giwer-swines's drunken spew snipped]

> Your statement was crap because it attempted to excuse the death of
> Jews during WW II.  Even an idiot should be able to figure that out.
> Everybody dies - so it's a rather moronic statement to declare that
> everyone currently on earth will be dead in a hundred years.  The
> question is how you die - and from that standpoint, you came across as
> nothing more than an apologist for the fascist elements that still
> exist in our society. 
> 
> If  your statement had nothing to do with what I was arguing, why in
> the fuck did you bother to respond to it in the first place?
> 
> =Bob


For those unfamiliar with the Porcine Prince: 

The  gonadotoxic Giwer-swine is, as far as I can determine, a craven
anti-Semitic and racist troller whose only interest is in slandering Jews
and causing fights.  He has profusely and consistantly lied about what has
been said in exchanges (while accusing others of lying), refused to
document claims, pretended not to see posts which contain documented
refutation of his claims (even when they have been emailed to him),
engaged in actual libel, blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi
apologia, crude sexism, and has generally conducted himself with such a
complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be
no point in taking the time to read and respond to him.  For detailed and
documented evidence of this, please refer to


http://www.nizkor.org/encouragements/
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/email/
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/net-abuse/
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/forgeries.1096
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/antisemite 
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/simpering-bitch
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/fatbroad
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/c-word
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/plagarized-01.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lie-freely-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/thousand-dollar

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Dec 24 08:25:32 PST 1996
Article: 88134 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!pumpkin.pangea.ca!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Certain Perspective
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 07:53:46 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 47
Message-ID: 
References:  <59hnjp$9h0@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi146.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <59hnjp$9h0@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
> 
> snip
> >  
> >>>>
> Those of us who have researched this issue for years 

Well, that leaves Mr. Belling out in the cold...

> ...know that many people died in these camps due to epidemics and i
> nclement conditions.  

All caused by the Nazis.

> It is not enough to refer to remains which are consistent with these 
>  unfortunate casualties and imply that they were murdered.  

Given that the the Nazis _chose_ to incarcerate these people against their
will for no other reason, for example, than they were Jews, the Nazis were
rtesponsibel for their deaths _irregardless_ of how it happened. 

> You will need much more convincing evidence for theat.--rb

Says who? Mr. Belling, the anti-Semtic lying scumbag Nazi apologist? 

Get real. 

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semtism, and outright lies,
please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec 25 14:31:50 PST 1996
Article: 88145 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!newsfeed.luth.se!news.luth.se!erix.ericsson.se!eua.ericsson.se!news.algonet.se!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!enews.sgi.com!newshub1.home.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Some Holocaust Facts
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 08:41:46 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 22
Message-ID: 
References: <32c00cfe.2578399@199.0.216.204> <32b977b7.10050231@news.gte.net>  <32bc2ea2.8424066@news.gte.net>  
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi146.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article , christ@adnc.com
(Chris Winkler) wrote:

> Insteaad of calling us dumb, why don't you try to rebut anything i put in
> my post 2 letters up? 

Been there, done that. 

> You can't and only can continue to spread lies and
> call people names. Re-read my lettter & what I pasted in. 

I did. Calling what you wrote "dumb" is a kindness.

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec 25 14:31:51 PST 1996
Article: 88157 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Nazi discusses war crimes (And response to Chuck)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 09:00:41 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 98
Message-ID: 
References: <32bf4390.57794556@news.gte.net> <59nkrh$q1f@news.enter.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi146.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <59nkrh$q1f@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

> >   10@11.12 the criminal Giwer traitorously writes:
> >  On Sat, 14 Dec 1996 11:08:47 -0700, mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van
> >  Alstine) wrote:
> 
> >  >This, of course, is a provable lie. I have pointed this to Mr. Smith 
> >  >several times already and challenged him to substantiate his claim. Mr.
> >  >Smith, being such a "brave" Nazi has instead chosen to tuck his tail and
> >  >run each time. 
> 
> >  >Will Mr. Smith refer to the historical record and cite a (credible) source
> >  >that shows the United States Navy was "destroying German vessels on the
> >  >high seas before 1939 to provoke Hitler into a war?"
>   
> >  Let us clarify this.  Does the issue hang upon the date or that FDR
> >  was attempting to provoke a war with Germany?  And if the latter, does
> >  it hang upon the method of that provocation?  

No, the issue "hangs" upon Mr. Smith, if he chooses to accept my
challenge, to provide credible documented historical evidence that the
United States Navy was "destroying German vessels on the high seas before
1939 to provoke Hitler into a war."

> >  At the moment I can not give citations...

Why am I not suprised? 

> >  I can only say that it was
> >  an interesting documentary on The History Channel one night.  It also
> >  mentioned that prior to Germany finally being provoked into the
> >  declaration of war that US Naval vessels provided escorts for merchant
> >  ships.  Have a little patience here and I will get around to proper
> >  citations.

Is the Porcine Prince willing to pinch-hit for the obviously craven Mr.
Smith? If so, the challenge to him is the same: 

Will the Giwer-swine refer to the historical record and cite a (credible)
source that shows the United States Navy was "destroying German vessels on
the high seas before 1939 to provoke Hitler into a war?"

All the Giwer-swine has to do is except and agree to pony up $100 when he
loses. 

> Wow!  the American navy provided protection fro American merchant 
> shipping.  How could such perfidy have gone unpunished?  
> 
> >  Yes there was clearly US provocation of war with Germany by a
> >  violation of neutrality.  Yes the US did protect its merchant ships
> >  that were engaged in violating that neutrality.  And in protecting
> >  them it did sink Germany submarines.  
> 
>         Wow!  The American navy decided to shoot at people who decided to 
> attack American ships.  Those fools obviously did not know the purpose of the 
> American navy.
> 
> 
> Next the criminal Giwer will tell us that the basic purpose of AMerican 
> police forces is to provide employment for workers at Dunkin' Donuts.
> 
>         --YFE

The  gonadotoxic Giwer-swine is, as far as I can determine, a craven
anti-Semitic and racist troller whose only interest is in slandering Jews
and causing fights.  He has profusely and consistantly lied about what has
been said in exchanges (while accusing others of lying), refused to
document claims, pretended not to see posts which contain documented
refutation of his claims (even when they have been emailed to him),
engaged in actual libel, blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi
apologia, crude sexism, and has generally conducted himself with such a
complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be
no point in taking the time to read and respond to him.  For detailed and
documented evidence of this, please refer to


http://www.nizkor.org/encouragements/
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/email/
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/net-abuse/
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/forgeries.1096
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/antisemite 
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/simpering-bitch
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/fatbroad
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/c-word
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/plagarized-01.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lie-freely-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/thousand-dollar

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec 25 14:31:52 PST 1996
Article: 88164 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!hookup!usc!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.ukrainian,soc.culture.baltics,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.g-gordon-liddy
Subject: Re: Can't See The Humor
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 08:00:01 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 25
Message-ID: 
References: ,<57b0lu$4pn@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,<57b3tv$n32@news.nyu.edu>,<329A8BBB.1FC2@interport.net>,<57en08$b25@news.nyu.edu>,<57lvgi$jo2@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca>,,
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In article , joelr@winternet.com (Joel
Rosenberg) wrote:

[snip]

> Frankly, I strongly doubt he owns a Desert Eagle, much less the .50AE
version. 
>  (You'll remember Tom Moran ranting and on about it on alt.revisionism, as 
> though his distaste for the Desert Eagle is evidence that the Holocaust
didn't 
> happen.)  
> 
> They're expensive, and they're not sold for food stamps.

Ah, but he _could_ have stolen it....

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec 25 14:31:52 PST 1996
Article: 88167 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.aloha.net!svr1.pdx.gstis.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-chi-8.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Nazi discusses war crimes (And response to Chuck)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 03:00:05 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 50
Message-ID: 
References: <59b9dv$9tu@morgana.netcom.net.uk> <59d1sd$1c8@news.enter.net> <32bbb87d.105140255@news.micron.net>  <32bd16a5.194793828@news.micron.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi146.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32bd16a5.194793828@news.micron.net>, kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

[snip]

> >I say that Mr. Smith, as usual, is dribbling shit down his chin and cannot
> >cite _one_ authoritative source to support his claim that the U.S. was
> >sinking ships under the flag of Nazi Germany _prior_ to 1939. Will Mr.
> >Smith rise to this challenge? Hmmm? 
> 
> I said -in- 1939, billious toad.  

No, you lying little Nazi shit, you did not say _in_ 1939. Mr. Smith, as
plain as day, you wrote in article <32b737e5.89408064@news.micron.net>
kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt Stele): 

"The US was destroying German vessels on the high seas before 1939 to
provoke Hitler into a war."

And you have repeated this same lie several times. Now, Mr. Smith, I take
it that your furious backpeddaling and lying about what you wrote is your
way of admitting that you _are_ indeed a cowardly little Nazi shit who is
running away from my challange to you? 

How typical. 

For those interested in proof of National Alliance member Brian Smith's
(aka "Kurt Stele") rabid anti-Semitism, pathological Nazi apologia,
puerile lies, and that he possses an IQ of a fence post (not to mention a
sewer mouth) please visit:

http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/stele.kurt
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/smith.brian.r

"In Jerusalem there is a memorial site for the six million Jews murdered
by the Nazi's during World War 2. It is called Yad Vashem and was raised
1953. An avenue called "The Avenue of the Righteous" runs through this
site. The wind whispers continuously through the several hundred trees
planted there. Each and every tree has been planted to honor a non-Jewish
person risking his or her life to save Jews from the Nazi murderers." 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec 25 14:31:53 PST 1996
Article: 88180 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!hookup!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!sdd.hp.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.rel.christian,alt.polics.white.nationalism,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Judaism is not Religion of U.S. government either!
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 23:34:13 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 47
Message-ID: 
References: <594tto$sc5$1@uhura.phoenix.net> <32bb5f4f.3770043@news.demon.co.uk> <59ci66$2s0$2@uhura.phoenix.net> <32bc7bd8.155159240@news.micron.net> 
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:88180 alt.politics.white-power:53247

In article ,
schwartz@infinet.com (Sara aka Perrrfect) wrote:

> In article <32bc7bd8.155159240@news.micron.net>, kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt
> Stele) wrote:
> 
> 
> > I guess Sara Schwartz may have to revise her signature or find a new
> > one.  
> > 
> > Kurt Stele
> 
> Too late.
>  
> Sara
> 
> -- 
> "Remember, there is a great difference between kneeling down and bending
over."
>    Frank Zappa

Not to Mr. Smith. Perhaps it because he grabs his ankles when he does either? 

For those interested in proof of National Alliance member Brian Smith's
(aka "Kurt Stele") rabid anti-Semitism, pathological Nazi apologia,
puerile lies, and that he possses an IQ of a fence post (not to mention a
sewer mouth) please visit:

http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/stele.kurt
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/smith.brian.r

"In Jerusalem there is a memorial site for the six million Jews murdered
by the Nazi's during World War 2. It is called Yad Vashem and was raised
1953. An avenue called "The Avenue of the Righteous" runs through this
site. The wind whispers continuously through the several hundred trees
planted there. Each and every tree has been planted to honor a non-Jewish
person risking his or her life to save Jews from the Nazi murderers." 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec 25 14:31:54 PST 1996
Article: 88315 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde!news.sgi.com!newshub.sdsu.edu!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: RBlackmore, spews more bile and chokes on it... Re: 'However, they were herded into the gas chambers and gassed'
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 13:24:10 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 33
Message-ID: 
References:  <595sco$sof@juliana.sprynet.com> <597vrv$iua@lendl.cc.emory.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi143.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <597vrv$iua@lendl.cc.emory.edu>, libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu
(william c anderson) wrote:

> rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
> 
> : Reread my Soviet Def Comedy Jam Posts for many more instances
> : of obviously fabricated Soviet testimony.  I can post additional material
> : if you wish.--rb
> 
> Uh-huh.  Given the fact that you, a nazi shill and associate of Harold
> Covington of the National Socialist White People's Party, came into this
> group claiming to be an Honest Seeker of Truth, can you suggest any
> reason, Mr. Belling, why anybody here should believe anything you say?

I can suggest several reasons why Mr. Belling _shouldn't_ be believed:

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec 25 14:31:55 PST 1996
Article: 88330 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!wesley.videotron.net!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-lond.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!uwm.edu!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Nazi discusses war crimes (And response to Chuck)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 08:38:55 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 32
Message-ID: 
References: <19961211054600.AAA13161@ladder01.news.aol.com>  <32b103b2.11320646@news.alt.net> <32b212ff.8941781@news.micron.net> <58uafn$csn@news.nyu.edu> <32b737e5.89408064@news.micron.net> <59b9dv$9tu@morgana.netcom.net.uk> <32bbb47d.104115726@news.micron.net>  <32BC67C5.7851@phoenix.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi146.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32BC67C5.7851@phoenix.net>, tavish@phoenix.net wrote:

> Mark Van Alstine wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > > On Thu, 19 Dec 1996 11:40:52 GMT, amcl@netcomuk.co.uk (Angus M.
> > > McLellan) wrote:
> > >
> > > >In article <32b737e5.89408064@news.micron.net>
> > > >kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt Stele/Brian Smith) "willettsed":
> > Will Mr. Smith rise to this challenge? Hmmm?
> > 
> > Or will our brave Nazi, knowing he lied, tuck his tail and run away
once more?
> > 
> > [Mr. Smith's senile Nazi drooling snipped]
>  
> Doc Tavish comments: "Mark, Mark, Mark get your own schtick, the
> drooling of spittle remark, made in relation to you all is my line.

Er, I'm afraid not, Mr. McTavish. Perhaps you might peruse DejaNews before
you stick your other foot down your throat? 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec 25 14:31:56 PST 1996
Article: 88351 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.rel.christian,alt.religion.islam
Subject: Re: Nazi Atrocities?
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 16:20:32 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 174
Message-ID: 
References: <594sos$s6k$1@uhura.phoenix.net> <597b3d$b9j@news.nyu.edu> <597ikg$430@lex.zippo.com> <59aecc$nnf$1@uhura.phoenix.net> <59aqsq$3bg@lex.zippo.com>  <59f6ae$s1v@lex.zippo.com>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:88351 alt.politics.nationalism.white:40448 alt.politics.white-power:53293 alt.religion.islam:37121

In article <59f6ae$s1v@lex.zippo.com>, Ourobouros wrote:

> In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
says...
> >
> >In article <59aqsq$3bg@lex.zippo.com>, Ourobouros wrote:
> >
> >> I fully agree that 3500 years ago, the Israelites were the only genocidal
> >> people on the planet....  
> >
> >And your reasons for this are? What _historical_ evidence do you base your
> >"agreement" on? 
> >
> Howabout actually studying formal ancient Near Eastern History?
> 
> If you know of another group that was genocidal then come out with it.
> 
> >> After I wrote the above, I remembered that the Israelites were supposed to 
> >> have come from Egypt...
> >
> >Er, no. Given that Abram was a descendant of Shem (cf. Genesis 11; KJV),
> >their lands were "from Mesha, as thou goest unto Sephar a mount of the
> >east" (Genesis 10:30; KJV). It was later that "Abram went down into Egypt
> >to sojourn there; for the famine [was] grievous in the land" (Genesis
> >12:10; KJV) and then left (cf. Genesis 13:1; KJV) to eventually live in
> >Canaan (Genesis 13:12; KJV). 
> >
> Well then, the book of Exodus was never written.  

Er, Mr. self-eater, Genesis predates Exodus. 

> I couldn't care less about their earliest origins, but where they had just 
> (supposedly) been....

Too bad you didn't make yourself clear. It's a problem with you,
evidently. You claimed that "Israelites were supposed to  have come from
Egypt." I took that to mean that they _originited_ from Eygypt, which was
silly. 

But given that you're usually silly, Mr. self-eater, I thought you were
serious.... 

> or are you being wilfully stupid?  

No, it's simply your muddled thinking, Mr. self-eater. That, and possibly
you were talking with your mouth full (of your foot) again?

> For all intensive purposes their "sojourn" in
> Egypt would mean an "Egyptising" of the Israelites

Really? How "Egyptized" would you think they would be? Your historical
evidence for such an assumption is? (Oops, I forgot, you don't do the
historical evidence thing but rather the "Because I Say So!" thing.) How
"Babylonized" to think the Israelites were? 

> -- their trade skills
> would have been Egyptian in origin, O' dense one.

Interesting, then, is it not, that the Hebrew alphabet is nearly identical
to the Assyrian alphabet? Please explain why, as you seem to place such
great power of influence on the Egyptians, didn't the Israelites use
hieroglyphs? 

> >Of course, _historically_ speaking, the point in time this supposedly took
> >place is a bit vague. If, as it has been suggested, was to have taken
> >place around 3500 B.C., it would have preceded the introduction of the
> >sword in warfare by about 1500 years:
> >
> Er meathead, 1996 - 3500 = -1504 (1504 B.C.), I take it your exercise in
> mathematics comes from holocaust numbers?

Ah, my mistake. I read 3500 and for some reason 3500 B.C. stuck in my
mind. Oh, well....

Of course, a date of 1500 B.C. makes your claims in regard to "genocide"
even more ridiculous, as circa 1400-600 B.C.the Assyrians were "the most
warlike people of the mMiddle East," being they were exceptionally cruel
and ferocious. "It was not unusual for them to kill every man, woman, and
child in captured cities. Sometimes they would carry away entire
populations into captivity." (cf. Dupuy, _The Harper Encyclopedia of
Military History_, pp.9,11.) 

> > "The first new weapons of metallic age were the axe and the mace, the
> >dagger, and then the sword, The long thin blade that characterizes the
> >sword could not have been created until metallurgy had sufficiently
> >developed to permit the working of hard malleable metal. This occured in
> >the Bronze Age sometime before 2000 B.C., and the sword was probably
> >introduced into warfare by the Assyrians." (Dupuy, _The Harper
> >Encyclopedia of Military History_, pp.2-3.) 
> >
> Which means you're a meathead.

Actually, Mr. self-eater, it means the Assyrians first introduced the
sword into warfare.

> >> ...which meant their swords would have been an adaption of the sickle 
> sword, which has no point. 
> >
> >Given that you were incorrect in your origional assumption about the
> >origions of the Israelites, your subsequent assumption about the type of
> >sword used is also suspect. Could you please provide _historical_ evidence
> >that the Israelites used "an adaption of the sickle sword?" Given that the
> >sword was most likely introduced by the Assyrians, would it not also be
> >likely that the type of sword  by patterned after the Assyrian sword i.e.-
> >"The long thin blade that characterizes the sword."? 
> >
> 
> Er no, it means you're a meathead.

So you can't back up your claims about "sickle" swords with the historical
evidence, Mr. self-eater? Typical.

> >> Apart from slashing the only other move is bludgeoning  with that kind of 
> >> sword.
> >
> >Again, what historical evidence do you have that the Isrealites used was
> >"an adaption of the sickle sword?" So far you have offered nothing but
> >incorrect speculation. 
> >
> The sickle sword was the sword of the Egyptians.  

Mr. self-eater, what historical evidence do you have that confirms that
the "sickle" sword was the "sword of the Egyptians?"

> It was used in chariot warfare, since it is unlikely that the Israelites had 
> chariots in  Joshua 8, then it is extremely likely that they adapted the 
> Egyptian's sickle sword for infantry use, or you just plain thick?

And your historical evidence for all this is, Mr. self-eater? 

The reason I ask, Mr. self-eater is that that I also recall somebody
claiming in regard to bayonets that:

"'Blood grooves' are officially called 'fullers' :-)  They were there to
improve balance/speed and weight, not really for blood :-)"

However, given that bayonets (especially most modern ones) are basically
knives, which are themselves patterned after daggers, the following it
intructional:

"Blade cross-section (above) Variations in the sectional shape of the
blade usually represent attempts to combine narrowness with stiffness.
Parallel sides (A) are the  weakest shape. Convex (B) or concave formed by
grooves called fullers (C) are more rigid, as are ribs (D), a ridge (E) or
a diamond shape (F). The spike is used for stabbing (G) has no cutting
edge." _Weapons: an international encyclopedia from 5000 B.C.to 2000 A.D_,
p.26.) 

Do you perhaps, Mr. self-eater, recall who this blustering fool was? I do. 

> >[snip]
> >
> >> I believe there is a reference to one of Israeli kings who used saws & Co.
> >> on his opponents, now that is cruel.
> >
> >And there is testimony that the Nazis tossed innocent children alive into
> >burning ditches. It is said that to be burned alive is one of the most
> >painfull ways to die. 
> 
> More eyewitness testimonies, tell me about how accurate UFO encounter
> testimonies are?

This from a simpleton who names himself after a self-eating serpent, and
who uses Joshua 8 as historical _evidence_. I'm vexed with fools. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec 25 14:31:57 PST 1996
Article: 88398 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!news.alfred.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!uwm.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!usc!sdd.hp.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No SS Man Was Ever Punished?
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 07:25:25 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 68
Message-ID: 
References:  <59hsrf$fco@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi146.rbi.com

In article <59hsrf$fco@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>    mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
>   In article <59ge6c$30v@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>   
> 
> 
> >  > 
> >  > We can always rely upon Mark for posting all the old wives tales, which 
> >  > have not even an iota of truth in them.  
> >  
> >  Mr. Belling, if you have evidence that Hilberg was repeating "old wives
> >  tales" [sic] that haven't "an iota of truth in them," please feel free to
> >  offer credible evidence confirming so. What? You don't have any? You were
> >  simply being a mendacious lying scymbag Nazi apologist? 
> 
> No.  

No evidence? How typical. 

> It is up to Hilberg to prove the accusations were true.--rb

He did. 

> >  I'm shocked. (Not!) 
> >  
> >  > Of course mark, now having opened this can of worms, is expected to 
> >  > provide proof that Morgen was charged, convicted, and sentenced for
these 
> >  >alleged murders. 
> >  
> >  Why? _I_ made no claims that Dr. Morgen was charged, charged, convicted,
> >  and sentenced for the deaths of the four Soviet POWs.  Are _you_, Mr,
> >  Belling, claiming that he was? 
> 
> Then your remarks are irrelevant.--rb

Hardly. They simply illustrate the absolute insignificance that the Nazis
placed on the lives of their "untermensch" prisoners. 

> >  > Where is it Mark?  Get that foot out of your
> >  > mouth and prepare to stick the other one in....rb
> >  
> >  More like Mr. Belling should pull his head out of his ass once in a while
> >  and come up for air.... 
> 
> More of Mark's anal compulsions.--rb

No, one of Mr. Belling's breathing reflexes. 

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec 25 14:31:58 PST 1996
Article: 88430 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.sgi.com!newshub.sdsu.edu!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Blackmore--the *real* Blackmore
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 16:27:35 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 53
Message-ID: 
References: <32B8365A.61C6@rio.com><32B8365A.61C6@rio.com> <59g64i$30v@juliana.sprynet.com> <59ifc9$ri2$3@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <32BD6732.4E4C@rio.com> <32bdf510.103836646@news.gte.net> <32cca91c.28375343@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi146.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32cca91c.28375343@news.srv.ualberta.ca>,
John.Morris@UAlberta.CA (John Morris) wrote:

> In <32bdf510.103836646@news.gte.net>, Matt "Takes the Bait" Giwer
> (mgiwer@gte.net) posting as unterdreckenfuehrer@nizkook.org (Inveigh
> the kenneth) wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> >       40 kills in one sorty.  An ACE also.  
> 
> >       Is there anything this man has not done?  
> 
> Fish.

In a barrel... (Or the Porcine Prince's case, a chamber pot.) 

The  gonadotoxic Giwer-swine is, as far as I can determine, a craven
anti-Semitic and racist troller whose only interest is in slandering Jews
and causing fights.  He has profusely and consistantly lied about what has
been said in exchanges (while accusing others of lying), refused to
document claims, pretended not to see posts which contain documented
refutation of his claims (even when they have been emailed to him),
engaged in actual libel, blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi
apologia, crude sexism, and has generally conducted himself with such a
complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be
no point in taking the time to read and respond to him.  For detailed and
documented evidence of this, please refer to


http://www.nizkor.org/encouragements/
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/email/
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/net-abuse/
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/forgeries.1096
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/antisemite 
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/simpering-bitch
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/fatbroad
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/c-word
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/plagarized-01.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lie-freely-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/thousand-dollar


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec 25 14:31:59 PST 1996
Article: 88514 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!pumpkin.pangea.ca!news.mira.net.au!vic.news.telstra.net!news.telstra.net!news-out.internetmci.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel
Subject: Re: 961214: The teeth of Mrs. Aristotle
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 07:06:49 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 70
Message-ID: 
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In article ,
jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

> christ@adnc.com (Chris Winkler) wrote:
> 
> > rcgraves@disposable.com (Rich Graves) wrote:
> > 
> > > The particular bit of nonsense that you reposted, which was not put
> > > together by an engineer, is answered in several parts at:
> > > 
> > >  http://search.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/r/rimland.ingrid/science.01
> > >  http://search.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/r/rimland.ingrid/science.02
> 
> > I don't buy the arguements you list in science.01 above. First off, what
> > about the bones. Sure the meat & fat will burn in 23-30 minutes. But bones
> > take a long time.
> 
> An evidenceless assertion, which contradicts the evidence gathered by
> (among others) John Morris and Mike Stein.  The simple fact is that, if
> you don't care too much about the looks of the ashes, and don't mind if
> some big chunks of bone are left, 20-30 minutes is quite possible. This
> confirmed by crematory operators.

Lest we forget, the bones were pulverized to fragments:

"It took about 20 minutes to cremate three corpses in one retort. However,
in their efforts to reduce the number of loadings, prisoners cremated four
to five corpses at one time and extended the cremation time to about 25 to
30 minutes. When the time was up, the next load would be put into the
retort, regardless of the degree of incineration of the preceding load.
The incompletely incinerated bones fell through the grille into the ash
pit, were ground with wooden mortars along with the ashes, then poured
into pits near the crematorium. Next they were removed from the pits and
poured into the Vistula River or nearby ponds. Sometimes they were used to
prepare compost; other times they were used directly to fertilize the
fields of the camp farms." (Gutman, _Anatomy_, p.171.)

Additionally:

Source: "Auschwitz Chronicle, 1939-1945 / Danuta Czech. - 1st American ed.
(ISBN 0-8050-0938-8); p. 642. (Ref: APMO, IZ-13/89, Various Documents of
the Third Reich, p. 205, Invoice Copy for Bookkeeping (origional in BA
Koblenz).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

June 7 [1944]

The management of the crematoriums in Auschwitz II orders four sieves from
the DAW for sifting through human ashes. The sieves are to be equipped
with an iron frame. The openings of the sieve screens are to be 2/5 inch
in size.**

** A former prisoner and member of the Special Squad, Szlama Dragon,
states during the H"oss Trial that the ashes of the burned corpses are
taken from the pits near the crematoriums, ground fine in special mortars,
and taken to the Sola River (APMO, Dpr.-ZO/28a, p. 127). 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec 25 15:40:08 PST 1996
Article: 40306 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!freenet.unbc.edu!news.scn.org!news.abs.net!washington.Capitol.Net!feed1.news.erols.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.rel.christian,alt.religion.islam
Subject: Re: Nazi Atrocities?
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 02:04:42 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 175
Message-ID: 
References: <594sos$s6k$1@uhura.phoenix.net> <597b3d$b9j@news.nyu.edu> <597ikg$430@lex.zippo.com> <59aecc$nnf$1@uhura.phoenix.net>  <59aru4$3t2@lex.zippo.com>  <59hd1t$bp5@lex.zippo.com>
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In article <59hd1t$bp5@lex.zippo.com>, Ourobouros wrote:

> In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
says...
> >
> >In article <59aru4$3t2@lex.zippo.com>, Ourobouros wrote:
> >
> >> In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
> >says...
> >> >
> >> >In article <59aecc$nnf$1@uhura.phoenix.net>,
> >> >"tavish@phoenix.net"@phoenix.net wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Ourobouros wrote:
> >> >> > 
> >> >> > In article <597b3d$b9j@news.nyu.edu>, fresh@scscomm.com says...
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >Doc Tavish <"tavish@phoenix.net"@phoenix.net> wrote:
> >> >> > >
> >> [genocide, slashing, stabbing snipped]
> >> 
> >> >> The records (Biblical) show the Israelites (their perspective) as being
> >> >> the only ones going on their search and destroy missions....
> >> >
> >> >Mr. McTavish, do the words "Sumer," "Akkad," and "Babylonia" ring a
bell?    
> >> >
> >> Not one of these groups were genocidal.
> >
> >And your evidence for this is?
> >
> Studying them.  

Feel free to cite what you have "studied.". What? You didn't study any
such thing? Oops.

> Please point out cases of genocide in any group other than
> Jews in B.C. (ancient) times.  I'm waiting...

Actually, I think it best that _you_ first document the historical
evidence for genocide by the Israelites. 

> >> >> ...as best as I know we have no records from the others involved... 
> >> >
> >> >Hardly suprising, Mr. McTavish, as the _first_ recorded battle in history
> >> >was the Battle of Megiddo in 1469 B.C. (cf. Dupuy, _The Harper
> >> >Encyclopedia of Military History_, p.5.) 
> >> >
> >> I believe that would be out of date.  With more and more records being
> >> recovered from Mesopotamia, unknown battles have come to the fore.
> >
> >Feel free to cite them. What? You don't know of any off-hand? Pity. 
> >
> You could read some modern (comprehensive) books of Sumeria, meathead.

Again, feel free to cite them. What? You don't know of any off-hand? Pity. 

> >> [snip]
> >> 
> >> >> You are correct about the stabbing part and that is why modern bayonets 
> >> >> have  blood grooves (to facilitate withdrawal).
> >> >
> >> >Interesting. Is there a cite for this? 
> >> >
> >> It is an extremely common belief that the fullers were made as blood 
> >> channels.  
> >
> >So were sea monsters. So was the belief that if one sailed to far out to
> >sea one would fall of the edge of the world....
> >
> Whoopee do.

Whoopee do indeed. So much for _your_ "beliefs" about "blood channels."
Obviously if you cannot substantoate such "beliefs" they need not be taken
seriously....

> >> Even people in the know believe this, and I would think that a
> >> goodly number of books on swords would record it as so.  One other category
> >> I forgot to list in another post is fullers add strength to the weapon
> >> (daggers and knives often come with fullers.)
> >
> >Again, do you have an authoritative _citation_ for this? 
> >
> Offhand citation no, but I do make the occasional sword and dagger, plus I
> fight with them.

Uh huh. Obviously if you cannot substantoate such "beliefs" they need not
be taken seriously....

> >> >> If we could see pictures of Israelite carnage and what the corpses of
> >> >>their victims- men, women and children looked like it would be just as 
> >> >> graphic asNizkook's pictures.
> >> >
> >> >Indeed. But then, so would carnage caused by the Egyptians, Assyrians,
> >> >Greeks, Romans, Mongols, Turks, etc.. 
> >> >
> >> Not one of these groups believed in genocide of ethnic groups.  
> >
> >Tell that, for example, to the Carthegians and Armenians. 
> >
> The Armenians would be the exception, but they were rather recent.

So? 

> >> One could twist the Roman sack of Carthage as one case, and Athens in the 
> >> Peloponnesian war on revolting and democratic states (please note Mr.
> >> Ledgister, democratic states fight each other.)
> >
> >During the Third Punic War Rome was not a democracy like, for example, the
> >United States during WWII. (Fabius Maximus was appointed dictator.) 
> >Neither was Carthage, merely "sacked." Carthage was laid waste. Erased.
> >Nine tenths of the population of died in the fall of Carthage, the city
> >torched and its walls torn down, the survivors sold as slaves, and by
> >order of the Roman Senate it was decreed that no one was allowed to live
> >where Carthage once stood. 
> >
> >Cf. Dupuy, _The Harper Encyclopedia of Military History_, p.99-100;
> >http://www.idbsu.edu:80/courses/hy101/punicwar/09.htm;
> >http://www.idbsu.edu:80/courses/hy101/punicwar/17.htm. 
> >
> Meathead, I was referring to Athens....

Sorry, you weren't very clear on this when you included Rome in the same
sentance. I suggest you try and be more clear in the future....

> ...and her subject states being democracies, please read the history of the 
> Peloponnesian war in respect to Athens, Mitylene (revolt) and Samos.

Why? _I_ was talking about Rome. 

> As for Carthage; brutal as it was, this was still not an act of genocide...

Funny that there were no more Carthegians after Rome destroyed Carthage.... 

> for the other settlements of Carthaginians were not eradicated...

What _other_ settlements? BY the Third Punic War Carthage was stripped of
all her territories and colonies except for Carthage itself. 

> ie., there was no active genocidal program, the city of Carthage was _the_ 
> enemy of Rome.

Tell that to the Carthegians who were killed and enslaved. 

> >> >And, of course, the Nazis. Except the for the millions they gassed and
> >> >starved to death. Homicidal gassings and starvation don't cause stab
> >> >wounds....
> >> >
> >> Starvation is hardly new -- sieges come to mind.  
> >
> >Indeed. But the Nazis didn't lay siege to the POW and concentration camps
> >they built and manned- and the the prisoners they starved to death there. 
> >
> Getting food to them would have become an immense problem.
> 
> >And, of course, they also murdered millions in them (i.e. the
> >extermination camps) via homicidal gassings. That, at least, _was_
> >something horrifyingly new. 
> >
> And your primary source material for this is?

And _your_ primary source material contradicting this is? What? You don't
have any? 

How typical.  

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec 25 15:40:09 PST 1996
Article: 40313 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!freenet.unbc.edu!news.scn.org!news.abs.net!washington.Capitol.Net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.rel.christian,alt.religion.islam
Subject: Re: Nazi Atrocities?
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 02:06:50 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 41
Message-ID: 
References: <594sos$s6k$1@uhura.phoenix.net> <597b3d$b9j@news.nyu.edu> <597ikg$430@lex.zippo.com> <59aecc$nnf$1@uhura.phoenix.net>  <59aru4$3t2@lex.zippo.com>  <32bc7c41.155263594@news.micron.net>
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In article <32bc7c41.155263594@news.micron.net>, kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

[snip]

> Kurt Stele
> 
> At the Nuremberg Tribunal, chief U.S. prosecutor Robert Jackson
> charged that the Germans invented" a device to instantaneously
> "vaporize" 20,000 Jews near Auschwitz "in such a way that there was no
> trace left of them." IMT blue series, Vol. 16, p. 529-530. (June 21,
> 1946).  No reputable historian now accepts this fanciful tale.

And only pathetic little Nazis like Mr. Smith keep repeating such lies.
The absolute moral and intellectual depravity of Mr. Smith and his Nazi
ilk in continuing to promulgate this is revealed at: 

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/j/jackson.robert/vaporizing-device-context

For those interested in proof of National Alliance member Brian Smith's
(aka "Kurt Stele") rabid anti-Semitism, pathological Nazi apologia, and
that he possses an IQ of a fence post (not to mention a sewer mouth)
please visit:

http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/stele.kurt
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/smith.brian.r

"In Jerusalem there is a memorial site for the six million Jews murdered
by the Nazi's during World War 2. It is called Yad Vashem and was raised
1953. An avenue called "The Avenue of the Righteous" runs through this
site. The wind whispers continuously through the several hundred trees
planted there. Each and every tree has been planted to honor a non-Jewish
person risking his or her life to save Jews from the Nazi murderers."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec 25 15:40:10 PST 1996
Article: 40322 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!hookup!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!news.sgi.com!sdd.hp.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: A Nazi replies to a War Criminal
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 13:43:24 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
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Message-ID: 
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In article <32b75eda.99382748@news.micron.net>, kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

> On Tue, 17 Dec 1996 16:41:17 GMT, av118@torfree.net (Ivan Gowch)
> wrote:
> 
> >On Sun, 08 Dec 1996 09:14:33 GMT, jstuart@tristar.org (Jim Stuart)
> >wrote:
> >
> >       [Lotsa psychotic raving snipped]
> >
> >=>Open your mind to the Fuhrer's message,
> >=>and to the wisdom of His work, Mein Kampf.  Listen to the call
> >=>of the blood, Chuck, and join us!  Remove your guilt with the
> >=>pure light of the Fuhrer's truth!
> >
> >       Ah yes, the pure light of the truth propagated by the sickest
> >motherfucker the world has ever known.
> 
> Based on what?  Holohugger delusions?
> 
> >=> Proud to be a member of the National Socialist White People's Party!
> >
> >       That's like saying, proud to be a member of the Brigade of Bowery
> >Squeegee Guys and Other Pathetic Losers.
> 
> Certainly no worse than pimping for the synogogue front-organization
> Nizkor or Jewish parasitical state Israel which kills and torture
> Palestinians legally.

Ah, Mr. Smith is just torqued 'cause he found out his mother used to swim
after Allied troopships....

For those interested in proof of National Alliance member Brian Smith's
(aka "Kurt Stele") rabid anti-Semitism, pathological Nazi apologia, and
that he possses an IQ of a fence post (not to mention a sewer mouth)
please visit:

http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/stele.kurt
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/smith.brian.r

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From alt.usenet.kooks Wed Dec 25 15:40:11 PST 1996
Article: 40351 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: DIE NAZI SCUM!!!
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 08:47:53 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
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In article <597rdr$br6$4@uhura.phoenix.net>,
"tavish@phoenix.net"@phoenix.net wrote:

[snip]

> Another sterling and shining example of the "chosen"- ask an honest
> question and I gues get an honest answer. The answer given may in fact
> explain dislike of Jews- their open arrogance and the feeling of
> immunity from being held acountable. Again look at his choice of
> language. It is people such as this foul mouthed person that bring
> reproach on good Jews.
> Doc Tavish pointing out the chosen's obvious conceit

Speaking of conceit....

"And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but
considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?" (Matthew  7:3; KJV.) 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec 25 15:42:07 PST 1996
Article: 53181 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!freenet.unbc.edu!news.scn.org!news.abs.net!washington.Capitol.Net!feed1.news.erols.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.rel.christian,alt.religion.islam
Subject: Re: Nazi Atrocities?
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 02:04:42 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 175
Message-ID: 
References: <594sos$s6k$1@uhura.phoenix.net> <597b3d$b9j@news.nyu.edu> <597ikg$430@lex.zippo.com> <59aecc$nnf$1@uhura.phoenix.net>  <59aru4$3t2@lex.zippo.com>  <59hd1t$bp5@lex.zippo.com>
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In article <59hd1t$bp5@lex.zippo.com>, Ourobouros wrote:

> In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
says...
> >
> >In article <59aru4$3t2@lex.zippo.com>, Ourobouros wrote:
> >
> >> In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
> >says...
> >> >
> >> >In article <59aecc$nnf$1@uhura.phoenix.net>,
> >> >"tavish@phoenix.net"@phoenix.net wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Ourobouros wrote:
> >> >> > 
> >> >> > In article <597b3d$b9j@news.nyu.edu>, fresh@scscomm.com says...
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >Doc Tavish <"tavish@phoenix.net"@phoenix.net> wrote:
> >> >> > >
> >> [genocide, slashing, stabbing snipped]
> >> 
> >> >> The records (Biblical) show the Israelites (their perspective) as being
> >> >> the only ones going on their search and destroy missions....
> >> >
> >> >Mr. McTavish, do the words "Sumer," "Akkad," and "Babylonia" ring a
bell?    
> >> >
> >> Not one of these groups were genocidal.
> >
> >And your evidence for this is?
> >
> Studying them.  

Feel free to cite what you have "studied.". What? You didn't study any
such thing? Oops.

> Please point out cases of genocide in any group other than
> Jews in B.C. (ancient) times.  I'm waiting...

Actually, I think it best that _you_ first document the historical
evidence for genocide by the Israelites. 

> >> >> ...as best as I know we have no records from the others involved... 
> >> >
> >> >Hardly suprising, Mr. McTavish, as the _first_ recorded battle in history
> >> >was the Battle of Megiddo in 1469 B.C. (cf. Dupuy, _The Harper
> >> >Encyclopedia of Military History_, p.5.) 
> >> >
> >> I believe that would be out of date.  With more and more records being
> >> recovered from Mesopotamia, unknown battles have come to the fore.
> >
> >Feel free to cite them. What? You don't know of any off-hand? Pity. 
> >
> You could read some modern (comprehensive) books of Sumeria, meathead.

Again, feel free to cite them. What? You don't know of any off-hand? Pity. 

> >> [snip]
> >> 
> >> >> You are correct about the stabbing part and that is why modern bayonets 
> >> >> have  blood grooves (to facilitate withdrawal).
> >> >
> >> >Interesting. Is there a cite for this? 
> >> >
> >> It is an extremely common belief that the fullers were made as blood 
> >> channels.  
> >
> >So were sea monsters. So was the belief that if one sailed to far out to
> >sea one would fall of the edge of the world....
> >
> Whoopee do.

Whoopee do indeed. So much for _your_ "beliefs" about "blood channels."
Obviously if you cannot substantoate such "beliefs" they need not be taken
seriously....

> >> Even people in the know believe this, and I would think that a
> >> goodly number of books on swords would record it as so.  One other category
> >> I forgot to list in another post is fullers add strength to the weapon
> >> (daggers and knives often come with fullers.)
> >
> >Again, do you have an authoritative _citation_ for this? 
> >
> Offhand citation no, but I do make the occasional sword and dagger, plus I
> fight with them.

Uh huh. Obviously if you cannot substantoate such "beliefs" they need not
be taken seriously....

> >> >> If we could see pictures of Israelite carnage and what the corpses of
> >> >>their victims- men, women and children looked like it would be just as 
> >> >> graphic asNizkook's pictures.
> >> >
> >> >Indeed. But then, so would carnage caused by the Egyptians, Assyrians,
> >> >Greeks, Romans, Mongols, Turks, etc.. 
> >> >
> >> Not one of these groups believed in genocide of ethnic groups.  
> >
> >Tell that, for example, to the Carthegians and Armenians. 
> >
> The Armenians would be the exception, but they were rather recent.

So? 

> >> One could twist the Roman sack of Carthage as one case, and Athens in the 
> >> Peloponnesian war on revolting and democratic states (please note Mr.
> >> Ledgister, democratic states fight each other.)
> >
> >During the Third Punic War Rome was not a democracy like, for example, the
> >United States during WWII. (Fabius Maximus was appointed dictator.) 
> >Neither was Carthage, merely "sacked." Carthage was laid waste. Erased.
> >Nine tenths of the population of died in the fall of Carthage, the city
> >torched and its walls torn down, the survivors sold as slaves, and by
> >order of the Roman Senate it was decreed that no one was allowed to live
> >where Carthage once stood. 
> >
> >Cf. Dupuy, _The Harper Encyclopedia of Military History_, p.99-100;
> >http://www.idbsu.edu:80/courses/hy101/punicwar/09.htm;
> >http://www.idbsu.edu:80/courses/hy101/punicwar/17.htm. 
> >
> Meathead, I was referring to Athens....

Sorry, you weren't very clear on this when you included Rome in the same
sentance. I suggest you try and be more clear in the future....

> ...and her subject states being democracies, please read the history of the 
> Peloponnesian war in respect to Athens, Mitylene (revolt) and Samos.

Why? _I_ was talking about Rome. 

> As for Carthage; brutal as it was, this was still not an act of genocide...

Funny that there were no more Carthegians after Rome destroyed Carthage.... 

> for the other settlements of Carthaginians were not eradicated...

What _other_ settlements? BY the Third Punic War Carthage was stripped of
all her territories and colonies except for Carthage itself. 

> ie., there was no active genocidal program, the city of Carthage was _the_ 
> enemy of Rome.

Tell that to the Carthegians who were killed and enslaved. 

> >> >And, of course, the Nazis. Except the for the millions they gassed and
> >> >starved to death. Homicidal gassings and starvation don't cause stab
> >> >wounds....
> >> >
> >> Starvation is hardly new -- sieges come to mind.  
> >
> >Indeed. But the Nazis didn't lay siege to the POW and concentration camps
> >they built and manned- and the the prisoners they starved to death there. 
> >
> Getting food to them would have become an immense problem.
> 
> >And, of course, they also murdered millions in them (i.e. the
> >extermination camps) via homicidal gassings. That, at least, _was_
> >something horrifyingly new. 
> >
> And your primary source material for this is?

And _your_ primary source material contradicting this is? What? You don't
have any? 

How typical.  

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec 25 15:42:08 PST 1996
Article: 53188 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!freenet.unbc.edu!news.scn.org!news.abs.net!washington.Capitol.Net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.rel.christian,alt.religion.islam
Subject: Re: Nazi Atrocities?
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 02:06:50 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
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References: <594sos$s6k$1@uhura.phoenix.net> <597b3d$b9j@news.nyu.edu> <597ikg$430@lex.zippo.com> <59aecc$nnf$1@uhura.phoenix.net>  <59aru4$3t2@lex.zippo.com>  <32bc7c41.155263594@news.micron.net>
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In article <32bc7c41.155263594@news.micron.net>, kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

[snip]

> Kurt Stele
> 
> At the Nuremberg Tribunal, chief U.S. prosecutor Robert Jackson
> charged that the Germans invented" a device to instantaneously
> "vaporize" 20,000 Jews near Auschwitz "in such a way that there was no
> trace left of them." IMT blue series, Vol. 16, p. 529-530. (June 21,
> 1946).  No reputable historian now accepts this fanciful tale.

And only pathetic little Nazis like Mr. Smith keep repeating such lies.
The absolute moral and intellectual depravity of Mr. Smith and his Nazi
ilk in continuing to promulgate this is revealed at: 

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/j/jackson.robert/vaporizing-device-context

For those interested in proof of National Alliance member Brian Smith's
(aka "Kurt Stele") rabid anti-Semitism, pathological Nazi apologia, and
that he possses an IQ of a fence post (not to mention a sewer mouth)
please visit:

http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/stele.kurt
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/smith.brian.r

"In Jerusalem there is a memorial site for the six million Jews murdered
by the Nazi's during World War 2. It is called Yad Vashem and was raised
1953. An avenue called "The Avenue of the Righteous" runs through this
site. The wind whispers continuously through the several hundred trees
planted there. Each and every tree has been planted to honor a non-Jewish
person risking his or her life to save Jews from the Nazi murderers."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec 25 15:42:09 PST 1996
Article: 53198 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!hookup!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!news.sgi.com!sdd.hp.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: A Nazi replies to a War Criminal
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 13:43:24 -0700
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In article <32b75eda.99382748@news.micron.net>, kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

> On Tue, 17 Dec 1996 16:41:17 GMT, av118@torfree.net (Ivan Gowch)
> wrote:
> 
> >On Sun, 08 Dec 1996 09:14:33 GMT, jstuart@tristar.org (Jim Stuart)
> >wrote:
> >
> >       [Lotsa psychotic raving snipped]
> >
> >=>Open your mind to the Fuhrer's message,
> >=>and to the wisdom of His work, Mein Kampf.  Listen to the call
> >=>of the blood, Chuck, and join us!  Remove your guilt with the
> >=>pure light of the Fuhrer's truth!
> >
> >       Ah yes, the pure light of the truth propagated by the sickest
> >motherfucker the world has ever known.
> 
> Based on what?  Holohugger delusions?
> 
> >=> Proud to be a member of the National Socialist White People's Party!
> >
> >       That's like saying, proud to be a member of the Brigade of Bowery
> >Squeegee Guys and Other Pathetic Losers.
> 
> Certainly no worse than pimping for the synogogue front-organization
> Nizkor or Jewish parasitical state Israel which kills and torture
> Palestinians legally.

Ah, Mr. Smith is just torqued 'cause he found out his mother used to swim
after Allied troopships....

For those interested in proof of National Alliance member Brian Smith's
(aka "Kurt Stele") rabid anti-Semitism, pathological Nazi apologia, and
that he possses an IQ of a fence post (not to mention a sewer mouth)
please visit:

http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/stele.kurt
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/smith.brian.r

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec 25 16:13:39 PST 1996
Article: 103875 of soc.culture.canada
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: JEWS TRY AGAIN TO CLOSE DOWN ZUNDELSITE ON WWW
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 08:05:26 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
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References:   <329DBCC1.7F71@total.net> <329E2265.471A@vir.com>  <32A09D07.4D78@interlog.com>   <32aba194.14754856@news.direct.ca>  <32ad0ae9.2999893@news.gte.net> <58mu5j$qf9$1@gryphon.phoenix.net> <32b0cf22.8374744@news.inetworld.net> <32b33bb9.18196103@news.gte.net> <32b8a939.5261869@news.inetworld.net> <32ba03ce.4038031@news.gte.net> <32bc5c0f.6529099@news.inetworld.net>
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In article <32bc5c0f.6529099@news.inetworld.net>, rcf@inetworld.net wrote:

> On Fri, 20 Dec 1996 03:13:22 GMT, octagon@septa.gon (Up front) wrote:
> 

[The Giwer-swines's drunken spew snipped]

> Your statement was crap because it attempted to excuse the death of
> Jews during WW II.  Even an idiot should be able to figure that out.
> Everybody dies - so it's a rather moronic statement to declare that
> everyone currently on earth will be dead in a hundred years.  The
> question is how you die - and from that standpoint, you came across as
> nothing more than an apologist for the fascist elements that still
> exist in our society. 
> 
> If  your statement had nothing to do with what I was arguing, why in
> the fuck did you bother to respond to it in the first place?
> 
> =Bob


For those unfamiliar with the Porcine Prince: 

The  gonadotoxic Giwer-swine is, as far as I can determine, a craven
anti-Semitic and racist troller whose only interest is in slandering Jews
and causing fights.  He has profusely and consistantly lied about what has
been said in exchanges (while accusing others of lying), refused to
document claims, pretended not to see posts which contain documented
refutation of his claims (even when they have been emailed to him),
engaged in actual libel, blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi
apologia, crude sexism, and has generally conducted himself with such a
complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be
no point in taking the time to read and respond to him.  For detailed and
documented evidence of this, please refer to


http://www.nizkor.org/encouragements/
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/email/
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/net-abuse/
http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse/forgeries.1096
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/antisemite 
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/simpering-bitch
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/fatbroad
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/c-word
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/plagarized-01.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lie-freely-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/thousand-dollar

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec 25 20:35:31 PST 1996
Article: 88572 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!uunet!in2.uu.net!204.178.176.27!hunter.premier.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BEHOLD THE LIE
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 23:59:26 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
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Message-ID: 
References: <32bd9cfd.1815600@199.0.216.204>
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In article <32bd9cfd.1815600@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
wrote:

>                 Behold the lie, tell your friends.

[re-posted Moranic(tm) garbage snipped]

For a rebuttal of Moran's post detailing his outright lies, malicious
distortions,  propensity for propaganda, rampant anti-Semitism, and his
delusional state of mind, please refer to:

http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies/behold-the-liar

The Moran (tm)  is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semite engaged in
blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi apologia, and Holocaust denial.
The Moran (tm) generally conducted himself with such a complete lack of
intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in
taking the time to read and respond.  For detailed and documented evidence
of this, please refer to:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom

But what else should one expect from a lying anti-Semite who holds wacko
beliefs, is intellectually depraved, hasn't the slightest clue regarding
Supreme Court decisions, or what constitutes a dud at the  box-office? For
evidence of this please see:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/1996/what-moran-believes.9607
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies/hilberg-out-of-context
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-menorah-faq
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-schindler-faq

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Dec 25 20:35:32 PST 1996
Article: 88627 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!xenitec!zenox.com!news2.insinc.net!news.insinc.net!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.rel.christian,alt.religion.islam
Subject: Re: Nazi Atrocities?
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 09:02:54 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 88
Message-ID: 
References: <594sos$s6k$1@uhura.phoenix.net> <597b3d$b9j@news.nyu.edu> <597ikg$430@lex.zippo.com> <59aecc$nnf$1@uhura.phoenix.net>
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In article <59aecc$nnf$1@uhura.phoenix.net>,
"tavish@phoenix.net"@phoenix.net wrote:

> Ourobouros wrote:
> > 
> > In article <597b3d$b9j@news.nyu.edu>, fresh@scscomm.com says...
> > >
> > >Doc Tavish <"tavish@phoenix.net"@phoenix.net> wrote:
> > >
> > [snip]
> > 
> > >>Now imagine this please- If you read all of Joshua 8 you will notice
> > >>that all of the inhabitants were put to death with the edge of the sword
> > >>and not the point. What is the point that I am making you ask. To be
> > >>stabbed will more or less leve you in one piece and you could possibly
> > >>live but when you are literally hacked to pieces as was the method in
> > >>numerous parts of the bible you will most certainly die.
> > >
> > >Wow, what a shocker.  OK, now tell me of a single society 3500 yrs ago
> > >that did not operate in a similar manner?
> > >
> > The spear, and arrow were invented long since.  The mace was obsolete as
> > a military weapon however.  Please also note that no other people 3500
> > years ago were genocidal.
> > 
> > Doc Tavish is wrong about slashing, however.  It is feasible to still live
> > after being slashed, not a good one, but feasible.  Probably the reason is
> > the metal quality and the fact that stabbing someone is inefficient --you
> > have to withdraw the weapon from their body, which isn't always easy. Also,
> > the Hebrews used stabbing as well (Ehud and his dagger comes to mind.)
> > 
> > Ourobouros.
> 
> The records (Biblical) show the Israelites (their perspective) as being
> the only ones going on their search and destroy missions....

Mr. McTavish, do the words "Sumer," "Akkad," and "Babylonia" ring a bell?    

> ...as best as I know we have no records from the others involved... 

Hardly suprising, Mr. McTavish, as the _first_ recorded battle in history
was the Battle of Megiddo in 1469 B.C. (cf. Dupuy, _The Harper
Encyclopedia of Military History_, p.5.) 

> ...it would seem  that they were victims of the aforementioned and as in 
> cases Israelites pillaged and looted and Zipped the place. 

As usual, it would seem that Mr. McTavish speaks from ignorance,
substituting his beliefs for evidence. 

> I won't argue about the slashing however but the version of the bible I
had at 
> hand does say in numerous instances being put to death at the edge of the 
> sword (I took it to mean hacking). 

Indeed. And guess who introduced the sword in warfare? (Hint:It wasn't the
Israelites.)

> You are correct about the stabbing part and that is why modern bayonets have 
> blood grooves (to facilitate withdrawal).

Interesting. Is there a cite for this? 

> If we could see pictures of Israelite carnage and what the corpses of their 
> victims- men, women and children looked like it would be just as graphic as
> Nizkook's pictures.

Indeed. But then, so would carnage caused by the Egyptians, Assyrians,
Greeks, Romans, Mongols, Turks, etc.. 

And, of course, the Nazis. Except the for the millions they gassed and
starved to death. Homicidal gassings and starvation don't cause stab
wounds....

> Doc Tavish

Yes, it's true, this man has no dick.
       -Ghostbusters

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Dec 26 09:02:43 PST 1996
Article: 88738 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'However, they were herded into the gas chambers and gassed'
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 09:07:02 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 43
Message-ID: 
References: <597l8s$1hmu$1@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <59g4s7$30v@juliana.sprynet.com>  
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi146.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <59g4s7$30v@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> >   gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) writes:
> 
> snip
> >  
> >  [end quote]
> >  
> >  I hope people notice where that message was sent--the Nazi bastards that
> >  "Blackmore" claims he isn't one of.
> 
> Grow up, Gordon.  This is humor.  I once heard a group of Jewish
> students singing a bawdy song about the mother of Christ, as well as
> recounting what Christians would consider to be a blashphemous joke. 
> Don't play games.  Let's get down to the real issues at hand.  I don't
> carry any excess baggage, and a number of personal friends of mine are of
> jewish heritage, so cut the crap.--rb

Given that Mr. Belling is a proven lying scumbag Nazi apologist, there is
no reason whatsoever to believe his protestations of "humor" are true -or
even sincere. Mr. Belling, the lying scumbag Nazi apologist,  has hoist
himself on his own petard and knows it.

As do those who have read his lying scumbag Nazi apologia.  

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Dec 26 09:02:44 PST 1996
Article: 88780 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nol.net!df.lth.se!news.lth.se!newsfeed.sunet.se!news00.sunet.se!sunic!mn6.swip.net!solace!nntp.uio.no!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Big "Mistake"
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 01:35:32 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 47
Message-ID: 
References: <32bc7ccd.155403901@news.micron.net> <59l1ie$23h@news.enter.net> <32c03851.36398175@news.micron.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi146.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32c03851.36398175@news.micron.net>, kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

[snip]

> When are you going to test the tape Yalie-poo to see if you can
> convert a recording that is currently worthless into something that is
> merely inconsequential? 

And when are _you_, Mr. Smith, going to accept my challenge to you in
regard to your patently false claim you made in n article
<32b737e5.89408064@news.micron.net> kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt Stele) that:


"The US was destroying German vessels on the high seas before 1939 to
provoke Hitler into a war."

You have repeated this same lie several times, Mr. Smith, yet have failed
each time to substantiate it. Now, Mr. Smith, I can only assume that your
furious backpeddaling and lying about what you wrote is your way of
admitting that you _are_ indeed a cowardly little Nazi shit who is running
away from my challange to you, yes? 

For those interested in proof of National Alliance member Brian Smith's
(aka "Kurt Stele") rabid anti-Semitism, pathological Nazi apologia,
puerile lies, and that he possses an IQ of a fence post (not to mention a
sewer mouth) please visit:

http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/stele.kurt
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/smith.brian.r

"In Jerusalem there is a memorial site for the six million Jews murdered
by the Nazi's during World War 2. It is called Yad Vashem and was raised
1953. An avenue called "The Avenue of the Righteous" runs through this
site. The wind whispers continuously through the several hundred trees
planted there. Each and every tree has been planted to honor a non-Jewish
person risking his or her life to save Jews from the Nazi murderers." 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Dec 26 09:02:45 PST 1996
Article: 88787 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!node2.frontiernet.net!usenet.logical.net!dciteleport.com!feed1.news.erols.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Hall of Shame" - Documented Hate Speech on the Internet
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 23:28:45 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 120
Message-ID: 
References: <59p3k8$dd3@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi146.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <59p3k8$dd3@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
kblewitt@ix.netcom.com(Kenneth T. Blewitt) wrote:

> I thought Doc Tavish's listing of numerous vindictive and off-color
> statements by the Nizkor people was very pertinent.

And pray tell, Mr. Blewitt, what do you make of the Mr. McTavish's
"numerous vindictive and off-color statements" against Jews (and
non-Jews)? Or don't you consider the gutternipe's following comments a
reprehensible display of anti-Semitism and hate?

"I was rferring to what a certain kike prefers to eat yid! Musch love
toward you chosen ones! I will not apologize any more to you bastards."

"The Talmud says that Jesus is boiling in hot semen."

"If the Yids do not allow muslims in their army they therefore must be
muslimphobes."

"After reading all of the "wit" of the remaining two tribes, the gentiles
wish the other two would get lost too!"

"And all that reading to find out that the Pharisees say that Jesus is
being slowly simmered in hot semen."

"I will soon reveal why I am a 'Nazi Sympathizer' please stay tuned to the
newsgroups posted above and see the Doctor give the cure to the Jewish
Question."

"The anti-Christ Jews are always branding others as anti-Semites that
 disagree  with them- hence my use of anti-Christ."

"Doc Tavish fighting godless atheistic Judaized Bolshevism
on the home front."

"My sister not only deals in green stamps but also lives in a trailer
park- another thing looked down upon as being gauchely goyish by the
Jewish plague."

"Jews are the ultimate Holocaust deniers. The Jews wish to brand as
anti-semites who question "their" facts about the "Middle European"
Holocaust. Now I wish to call them anti-Christs because they deny the
"Asiatic" Holocaust. I am speaking of the Bolshevik Revolution that was
inspired, instigated, and financed by jewry from New York City's Lower
East side known as the Bowery. "

"You only confirm what gentiles have known all along- that the Jewboys
make geat comedians."

"Here is a dity for you; "Er macht mir shvartzeh chassenah." It is a
Yiddish phrase for what you are to me. A Nazi knowing Yiddish? Yes
Gunther, it must be the bagels he's eating and the Mogen David vine he's
been drrrinking."

"You appear to be agreeing that Jews have done things to earn thetreatment
they have received over the centuries.  Honesty is thebeginning of
wisdom."

"Those bodies look as if they were imported from the 'Holocaust' you
anti-Christs deny about millions of Christians being slaughtered by Jewish
Marxism!"

"Christians should be able to see what some degenerate Pharisee wrote
about Jesus. Pharisees haven't gone away they have only changed styles
of clothing and their name. They still are Christ Deniers and enemies
today of his followers."

"Jews can be born here but they still owe their allegiance to Israel."

"Only the Jews in Congress are lobbying for Israeli interests and they are
abusing their positions- they should be tagged as lobbyists. No other
ancestral national group in Congress shows this dual loyalty."

"I still stand by my assertion that Jews have control of Hollywood and its
contents."

"No we will not have to apply for a dual citizenship because the Hebes are
going to make the U.S.A. their second state so they can claim to be the
United Staes of Israel.

"I had to make this correction so as to not give the 'stone throwers and
Christ killers' any ammo in their persuits of anyone who does not agree
with them."

"These 'chosen ones' are still the same snakes anf liars as they were 19
cenuries ago."

Well, Mr. Blewitt, do you or do you not consider Mr. McTavish's above spew
a hateful display of anti-Semitism? 

> Here is what I have come to believe:  The Nizkorites think of us in
> terms of stereotypes and they have denied the Image of God in us.

Mr. Blewitt, IMHO, evil people like Mr. McTavish _don't_ have "the Image
of God" in them. If you consider yourself, as you appear to do for some
reason, as belonging to the same group of scum that Mr. McTavish belongs
to, and profess the same hateful beliefs that he does, then I dare say
_you_ don't have "the Image of God" in you either. 

> Yes, it is not a pretty thought for Christmas Eve, but I think that
> they have denied the Image of God in us.

No, Mr. Blewitt any "denial" is simply a product of _your_ choice. Nobody
is twisting _your_ arm to espouse hateful beliefs. Nobody has held a
Desert Eagle to the Nazi bumboy's head to make him spew his anti-Semititic
hate. He freely _chose_ to do so. As you will- or won't -likewise freely
choose to do so.

So please, take your crocodile tears over ugly thoughts on Christmas Eve
somewhere else. Your hypocrisy is beneath contempt.

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Dec 27 02:14:55 PST 1996
Article: 88846 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!node2.frontiernet.net!usenet.logical.net!dciteleport.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Blackmore vs. Blackmore
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 01:26:47 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 71
Message-ID: 
References: <59pd1f$k6m@access5.digex.net> <19961224204900.PAA16049@ladder01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi146.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <19961224204900.PAA16049@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
tutu101@aol.com (Tutu101) wrote:

[snip]

> Well, I would start by saying that Max Taubner is hardly a source to rely
> upon for a demonstration of proof in favor of the allegation that Jews
> were to be murdered by gas.  He is simply another witness among many
> witnesses who are not all that credible.  

I see. Mr. Belling, as usual, fails to offer any credioble evidence as to
why Taubner is "not all that credible" a witness. In other words, Mr.
Belling iasserts this simply Because Mr.Belling Says So!

[Mr. Belling's _discredited_ pet Jewish ritual murder hoax example snipped]

> At least when I rely upon reason and logic, I say so.

Mr. Belling, who consistantly fails to rely upon reason and logic, relies
on reason and logic Because Mr. Belling Says So!

> I have never used the expression "because I say so." 

Is Mr. Belling too dense to recognize an expression that signifies his
constant appealing to his ersatz "authority?" Obviously so. 

[Mr. Belling's _discredited_ pet Jewish ritual murder hoax example snipped]

> Also, your reference to a shower in or adjacent to a morgue is hardly
> incomprehensible.  

And which shower is Mr. Belling refering to? There were no showers in or
next to the L.Kellers. No autopsies were contucted in or next to the
L.Kellers. The L.Kellers were underground. The showers in Krema II were
_above_ ground in the Krema. In Krema II autopsies were conducted in the
dissecting room, which was above ground. 

> If I worked in a morgue performing autopsies all day, I
> would appreciate a shower close by.

Too bad then, according to the construction plans of Krema II, the shower
was located on the opposite side of the Krema from the dissecting room.
Too bad then, according to Dr. Nyiszli and Henryk Tauber, after the forced
draft motors in the motor room was converted into a shower room for the
Sonderkommandos. The motor room,according to the construction plans of
Krema II, was located in the middle of the Krema, next to the chimney by
the furnace hall. 

Too bad Mr. Belling is too busy spewing his anti-Semitic lying scumbag
Nazi apologia to do a shred of research in regard to the layout of Krema
II. Perhaps if he did he would come off sounding like an ignorant twit all
the time.  

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semtism, and outright lies,
please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Dec 27 11:37:24 PST 1996
Article: 88871 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nol.net!df.lth.se!news.lth.se!newsfeed.sunet.se!news00.sunet.se!sunic!mn6.swip.net!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!cold.news.pipex.net!pipex!dish.news.pipex.net!pipex!bt!btnet-feed2!btnet!netcom.net.uk!news-lond.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jews in Israel Hate Immigrants
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 01:48:10 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 45
Message-ID: 
References: <32bca1bf.17599233@news.gte.net> <59kt9q$23h@news.enter.net> <32c037c9.36262481@news.micron.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi146.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32c037c9.36262481@news.micron.net>, kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

> There are Jewish professors disgusted at the perverted and hateful
> filth of the Talmud.  Are you going to try to cover up that one too
> Yalie-poo?

And is Mr. Smith trying to cover up the fact that he was caught red-handed
in a puerile lie in which he claimed that:

"The US was destroying German vessels on the high seas before 1939 to
provoke Hitler into a war."

Obviously so, as he has admitted it was a "red herring!"

Now, Mr. Smith, I take it that your furious backpeddaling and lying about
what you wrote is your way of admitting that you _are_ indeed a cowardly
little Nazi shit who is running away from my challange to you? 
 
Obviously so.

For those interested in proof of National Alliance member Brian Smith's
(aka "Kurt Stele") rabid anti-Semitism, pathological Nazi apologia,
puerile lies, and that he possses an IQ of a fence post (not to mention a
sewer mouth) please visit:

http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/stele.kurt
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/smith.brian.r

"In Jerusalem there is a memorial site for the six million Jews murdered
by the Nazi's during World War 2. It is called Yad Vashem and was raised
1953. An avenue called "The Avenue of the Righteous" runs through this
site. The wind whispers continuously through the several hundred trees
planted there. Each and every tree has been planted to honor a non-Jewish
person risking his or her life to save Jews from the Nazi murderers." 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Dec 27 11:37:25 PST 1996
Article: 88945 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!node2.frontiernet.net!usenet.logical.net!dciteleport.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Giwer Criminal is Caught Again
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 03:51:58 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 71
Message-ID: 
References: <32bc7be4.155171147@news.micron.net> <59l2if$23h@news.enter.net> <32c0387e.36443564@news.micron.net>  <32c0c95e.73537391@news.micron.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi145.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32c0c95e.73537391@news.micron.net>, kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

> On Wed, 25 Dec 1996 01:30:51 -0700, mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van
> Alstine) wrote:
> 
> >In article <32c0387e.36443564@news.micron.net>, kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt
> >Stele) wrote:
> >
> >[snip]
> >
> >> You're too much of a gutless twerp to file charges, lying shyster.
> >
> >Speaking of gutless twerps, Mr. Smith.... Are _you_ going to accept my
> >challenge to you in regard to your patently false claim that you made in
> >article <32b737e5.89408064@news.micron.net> kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt
> >Stele): 
> >
> >"The US was destroying German vessels on the high seas before 1939 to
> >provoke Hitler into a war."
> >
> >You have repeated this same lie several times. Now, Mr. Smith, I take it
> >that your furious backpeddaling and lying about what you wrote is your way
> >of admitting that you _are_ indeed a cowardly little Nazi shit who is
> >running away from my challange to you? 
> 
> (yawn).  Oh Van Smallstein.  It matters not if the Germans were being
> attacked in 1939, 1932, or 1940, it was still the U.S. that attacked
> first.   

Oh, indeed it does, Mr. Smith! You made the patently false claim that:

"The US was destroying German vessels on the high seas before 1939 to
provoke Hitler into a war."

...And I challenged you to back up your lying sewer of a mouth with the
historical record. And what has been your repsonse? Major backpeddaling
and puerile excuses! 

It is obvious, Mr. Smith, by your words and actions, that you have a
yellow streak a mile wide running down your backside. Not to mention that
your piss yourself in fear everytime I drag you and your lies out of the
cesspool where you live and into the light of day where they (and you) are
laughed at. 

In short, Mr. Smith, you are indeed a craven little Nazi shit. 

For those interested in proof of National Alliance member Brian Smith's
(aka "Kurt Stele") rabid anti-Semitism, pathological Nazi apologia,
puerile lies, and that he possses an IQ of a fence post (not to mention a
sewer mouth) please visit:

http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/stele.kurt
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/smith.brian.r

"In Jerusalem there is a memorial site for the six million Jews murdered
by the Nazi's during World War 2. It is called Yad Vashem and was raised
1953. An avenue called "The Avenue of the Righteous" runs through this
site. The wind whispers continuously through the several hundred trees
planted there. Each and every tree has been planted to honor a non-Jewish
person risking his or her life to save Jews from the Nazi murderers." 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Dec 27 11:37:26 PST 1996
Article: 88969 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.rel.christian,alt.religion.islam
Subject: Re: Nazi Atrocities?
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 06:13:39 -0700
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In article <59oasc$bql@lex.zippo.com>, Ourobouros wrote:

> In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
says...

[snip]

> >Feel free to cite what you have "studied.". What? You didn't study any
> >such thing? Oops.
> >
> Ancient Near Eastern civilisations, O' half-wit.

And what "Ancient Near Eastern civilisations" syllabus was this, Mr.
self-eater? What texts were used? Hmmm? 

Your continued avoidance of citing any supportive texts, simply relying on
appeals to _your_ ersatz "authority" is duly noted, Mr. self-eater. Hardly
impressive, to say the least....

> >> Please point out cases of genocide in any group other than
> >> Jews in B.C. (ancient) times.  I'm waiting...
> >
> >Actually, I think it best that _you_ first document the historical
> >evidence for genocide by the Israelites. 
> >
> The book of Joshua seems to be pretty conclusive.

And your the archeological/historical evidence that such a religious text
is true is, Mr. self-eater? BTW, Mr. self-eater, I find it rather
hypocritical of you that on one hand you claim, without reason, that the
book of Genesis is historically inaccurate while accepting  the book of
Joshua, again woithout reason, is historically accurate....

[snip]

> >> You could read some modern (comprehensive) books of Sumeria, meathead.
> >
> >Again, feel free to cite them. What? You don't know of any off-hand? Pity. 
> >
> They're freely available.

In other words, you haven't the slightest clue? How odd for a "scholor" of
"Ancient Near Eastern civilisations!" 

[snip]

> >> >> I forgot to list in another post is fullers add strength to the weapon
> >> >> (daggers and knives often come with fullers.)

Really, I seem to recall otherwise. Could you please cite this other post? 

[snip]

> >Uh huh. Obviously if you cannot substantoate such "beliefs" they need not
> >be taken seriously....
> >
> Whatever.  There are enough books of sword-craftmanship to confirm what I
> wrote.  Try any of them.

Indeed "whatever!" It is interesting, is it not, that a person who claims
knowledge of "sword-craftmanship" cannot provide a citation to a book on
"sword-craftmanship?" 

> >> >> >> If we could see pictures of Israelite carnage and what the corpses of
> >> >> >>their victims- men, women and children looked like it would be
just as 
> >> >> >> graphic asNizkook's pictures.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Indeed. But then, so would carnage caused by the Egyptians, Assyrians,
> >> >> >Greeks, Romans, Mongols, Turks, etc.. 
> >> >> >
> >> >> Not one of these groups believed in genocide of ethnic groups.  
> >> >
> >> >Tell that, for example, to the Carthegians and Armenians. 
> >> >
> >> The Armenians would be the exception, but they were rather recent.
> >
> >So? 
> >
> We are/were talking about ancient civilisations, not modern.

I wasn't. Nor were you, as you are trying to white-wash Nazi genocide by
dragging the red herring of ancient Israelite "genocide" across the road. 

> >> >During the Third Punic War Rome was not a democracy like, for example, the
> >> >United States during WWII. (Fabius Maximus was appointed dictator.) 
> >> >Neither was Carthage, merely "sacked." Carthage was laid waste. Erased.
> >> >Nine tenths of the population of died in the fall of Carthage, the city
> >> >torched and its walls torn down, the survivors sold as slaves, and by
> >> >order of the Roman Senate it was decreed that no one was allowed to live
> >> >where Carthage once stood. 
> >> >
> >> >Cf. Dupuy, _The Harper Encyclopedia of Military History_, p.99-100;
> >> >http://www.idbsu.edu:80/courses/hy101/punicwar/09.htm;
> >> >http://www.idbsu.edu:80/courses/hy101/punicwar/17.htm. 
> >> >
> >> Meathead, I was referring to Athens....
> >
> >Sorry, you weren't very clear on this when you included Rome in the same
> >sentance. I suggest you try and be more clear in the future....
> >
> I suggest you take remedial English instead...

My, such a witty reply! Mr. self-eater obviously holds others at fault for
_his_  imprecise command of the English language! 

> >> ...and her subject states being democracies, please read the history
of the 
> >> Peloponnesian war in respect to Athens, Mitylene (revolt) and Samos.
> >
> >Why? _I_ was talking about Rome. 
> >
> And I was talking about both.

Then, despite your protests, you _were_ asserting that Rome was a
democracy when,  in fact, it was not! Tsk tsk, Mr. self-eater! Such a
tangled web you attempt to weave... 

Mr. self-eater, Don't you find it the _least_ bit embarrassing when you
blatantly contradict yourself like this? 

> >> As for Carthage; brutal as it was, this was still not an act of genocide...
> >
> >Funny that there were no more Carthegians after Rome destroyed Carthage.... 
> >
> Rot.  There was a Carthaginian empire you know...

And one could just as easily point out that there were Hittites,
Phillistines, Phoenicians, Arameans, etc as well the Isrealites in
Palestine and Syria. Can you tell me what ethnic group the people of the
city of Ai belonged to? If they were part of a larger ethnic group, the
desctruction of Ai and the killing of its inhabitants is no different that
the Roman destruction of Carthage. Or the Assyrian practice of killing the
inhabitants of a city to the last man, woman, and child. 

And, of course, you could also provide the archeological/historical
evididence (comaprable to that of the existance and destruction of
Carthage) that the city of Ai actually existed, and that the Israelites
actually destroyed it, killing all of its inhabitants. 

Will you? _Can_ you?

> >> for the other settlements of Carthaginians were not eradicated...
> >
> >What _other_ settlements? BY the Third Punic War Carthage was stripped of
> >all her territories and colonies except for Carthage itself. 
> >
> She once had an empire...

See above regarding the city of Ai. 

> >> ie., there was no active genocidal program, the city of Carthage was _the_ 
> >> enemy of Rome.
> >
> >Tell that to the Carthegians who were killed and enslaved. 
> >
> They were on the losing side, and therefore paid the penalty for trying to
> conquer Rome.

So was Ai. (On the losing side.) What then makes Ai so special? (Other
than your obvious dislike of Jews.) 

> >> >> >And, of course, the Nazis. Except the for the millions they gassed and
> >> >> >starved to death. Homicidal gassings and starvation don't cause stab
> >> >> >wounds....
> >> >> >
> >> >> Starvation is hardly new -- sieges come to mind.  
> >> >
> >> >Indeed. But the Nazis didn't lay siege to the POW and concentration camps
> >> >they built and manned- and the the prisoners they starved to death there. 
> >> >
> >> Getting food to them would have become an immense problem.
> >> 
> >> >And, of course, they also murdered millions in them (i.e. the
> >> >extermination camps) via homicidal gassings. That, at least, _was_
> >> >something horrifyingly new. 
> >> >
> >> And your primary source material for this is?
> >
> >And _your_ primary source material contradicting this is? What? You don't
> >have any? 
> >
> >How typical.  
> >
> Er no, please re-read what I wrote.   Trying to cite the non-existent is
> impossible, and therefore anything that tries to contradict the non-existent
> is also impossible.

Mr. self-eater, are you saying the book of Joshua is non-existent? Or
rather, the acts depocted therein are non-existent? If so, _why_ are you
trying to "compare" non-existent Israelite genocide to the extremely well
documented fact of the Nazi genocide of European Jewry? 

"In Jerusalem there is a memorial site for the six million Jews murdered
by the Nazi's during World War 2. It is called Yad Vashem and was raised
1953. An avenue called "The Avenue of the Righteous" runs through this
site. The wind whispers continuously through the several hundred trees
planted there. Each and every tree has been planted to honor a non-Jewish
person risking his or her life to save Jews from the Nazi murderers." 


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Dec 27 11:37:27 PST 1996
Article: 88996 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.rel.christian,alt.religion.islam
Subject: Re: Nazi Atrocities?
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 05:35:38 -0700
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In article <59pdkh$7d4@lex.zippo.com>, Ourobouros wrote:

> In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
says...

[snip]

> >Er, Mr. self-eater, Genesis predates Exodus. 
> >
> Er, they left the land of Egypt, having lived their for supposedly 400 
> years.

Mr. self-eater, as you seem to have a problem in figuring out what
"predates" means. Let me try again: The events in Genesis happened
_before_ those in Exodus. 

Furthermore, Genesis 12:10 says that "Abram went down into Egypt to
sojourn there" and according to Genesis 13:1 "Abram went up out of Egypt."
There was, as far as I could tell, no mention of how long Abram dwelt in
Egypt. However, in Genesis 25:7 it is written that Abraham lived a
"hundred threescore and fifteen years." That would be one hundred
seventy-five years, I believe. If Abraham (i.e. Abram) lived to be one
hundred seventy-five years old, how could he have lived in Egypt for four
hundred years? 

He couldn't, of course.

> >> I couldn't care less about their earliest origins, but where they had just 
> >> (supposedly) been....
> >
> >Too bad you didn't make yourself clear. It's a problem with you,
> >evidently. You claimed that "Israelites were supposed to  have come from
> >Egypt." I took that to mean that they _originited_ from Eygypt, which was
> >silly. 
> >
> The problem with you is you make all sorts of wild assumptions, and you
> decide what I really wrote is what you think I wrote.

Uh huh. Like your erroneous claim (above) that Abraham lived in Egypt for
four hundred years?  

> >But given that you're usually silly, Mr. self-eater, I thought you were
> >serious.... 
> >
> Whatever you believe, the above shows a logical contradiction in your mode
> of thinking.

Rather, I think, Mr. self-eater, it is quite obvious you are talking about
things you know not. 

> >> or are you being wilfully stupid?  
> >
> >No, it's simply your muddled thinking, Mr. self-eater. That, and possibly
> >you were talking with your mouth full (of your foot) again?
> >
> It appears from our conversations that you have the muddled thinking, I
> never said 3500 B.C. like some person I know.

Ah, Mr. self-eater, there is a difference between "muddled thinking" and
simply misreading 3500 and assuming 3500 B.C. It was an error I, at
least,  acknowledged. I _also_ pointed out that the time period you were
talking about- circa 1500 B.C. -made your claims about Israelite
"genocide" even _more_ ludicrous in lite of the Assyrians. 

> >> For all intensive purposes their "sojourn" in
> >> Egypt would mean an "Egyptising" of the Israelites
> >
> >Really? How "Egyptized" would you think they would be? Your historical
> >evidence for such an assumption is? (Oops, I forgot, you don't do the
> >historical evidence thing but rather the "Because I Say So!" thing.) How
> >"Babylonized" to think the Israelites were? 
> >
> Considering that the Israelites aren't recorded as ever been in Egypt their
> is no historical evidence, I was making a logical deduction, though it is
> quite evident that logic and you are mutually exclusive.

I see. Given that you claim there is no recorded evidence (aside from
religious texts such as Genisis and Exodus etc., which explicitly show you
to be in err) that the Israelites were ever in Egypt, you made a "logical
deduction" that the Israelites _were_ in Egypt?! 

And you then claim that "it is quite evident that logic" and _I_ "are
mutually exclusive?" ROTFL! What a blithering idiot you are, Mr
self-eater! What chutzpuh you have! 

> Considering that the Jews have the Babylonian Talmud, obviously the Jews
> were affected (heavily) by Babylon.
> 
> >> -- their trade skills
> >> would have been Egyptian in origin, O' dense one.
> >
> >Interesting, then, is it not, that the Hebrew alphabet is nearly identical
> >to the Assyrian alphabet? Please explain why, as you seem to place such
> >great power of influence on the Egyptians, didn't the Israelites use
> >hieroglyphs? 
> >
> Er no.  The Hebrew alphabet is nearly identical to the Aramean (?) alphabet 
> and Phoenician alphabet.  At circa 1500 B.C. the Assyrians would have been 
> using the Akkadian language and using the Sumerian script in an Akkadian
> way.

Amazing then, is it not, that the Hebrew alphabet is nearly identical to
the Assyrian alphabet? What a "coincidence" this is, considering that the
Assyrian Empire, by circa 1100 B.C., reached all the way from Mesopotamia
to the Mediterranean! And that by circa 750 .B.C. _all_ of Palestine and
Syria were under Assyrian dominion. 

> >> >Of course, _historically_ speaking, the point in time this supposedly took
> >> >place is a bit vague. If, as it has been suggested, was to have taken
> >> >place around 3500 B.C., it would have preceded the introduction of the
> >> >sword in warfare by about 1500 years:
> >> >
> >> Er meathead, 1996 - 3500 = -1504 (1504 B.C.), I take it your exercise in
> >> mathematics comes from holocaust numbers?
> >
> >Ah, my mistake. I read 3500 and for some reason 3500 B.C. stuck in my
> >mind. Oh, well....
> >
> Proof, of course, that you don't read your opponents arguments, but merely
> decide what they _really_ wrote yourself.  

And praytell, what does that say about _your_ "misreading" of Genesis? Thy
tongue, it appears, is a two-edged sword! Be careful, Mr. self-eater, lest
you be picking it up off the floor....

> Please don't try and ever claim I have muddled thinking, it is you with the 
> mental disorder.

I see. Such petty insults from a person who can't even read Scriptures
correctly is hardly persuasive.... 

> >Of course, a date of 1500 B.C. makes your claims in regard to "genocide"
> >even more ridiculous, as circa 1400-600 B.C.the Assyrians were "the most
> >warlike people of the mMiddle East," being they were exceptionally cruel
> >and ferocious. "It was not unusual for them to kill every man, woman, and
> >child in captured cities. Sometimes they would carry away entire
> >populations into captivity." (cf. Dupuy, _The Harper Encyclopedia of
> >Military History_, pp.9,11.) 
> >
> They were not genocidal at all. They were extremely cruel, there is little
> doubt about that....   

Really? And your evidence for this is? What, in your "opinion" makes the
Isrealirtes "genocidal" while the Assyrians are merely "extremely cruel?"

> It was unusual for them to kill every man, woman and
> child in a captured city, unless they absolutely provoked the Assyrians, 
> and even then they typically butchered the leading citizens and moved the
> population elsewhere.  

And your evidence for this is? Why none, of course! Mearely an empty
assertion on your part. I would (again) point out that you are
contradicted:

"It was not unusual for them to kill every man, woman, and child in
captured cities. Sometimes they would carry away entire populations into
captivity." (cf. Dupuy, _The Harper Encyclopedia of Military History_,
pp.9,11.)

Note the part about how "it was not unusual for them to kill every man,
woman, and child in captured cities." Key words here, of course, Mr.
self-eater, are "not unusual." 

> To brief the Assyrians: their city God commanded the Assyrians on which
> cities should be captured, thus it was God's decree that a particular
> region should be under Assyrian hegemony.  

And your evidence for this is? 

> If a city surrendered outright then there were absolutely no problems, if a 
> city resisted then bloodshed happened, but the citizenry were not slaughtered 
> to a man.  

And your evidence for this is? Given the above, it appears you are (at
best)  speculating.

> That city had attempted to defy Assur (the God of the Assyrians).  If a city 
> that was under Assyrian hegemony revolted then they were revolted against 
> Assur, and therefore they committed heresy.  

And your evidence for this is?

> In this latter scenerio the Assyrians 
> were at their bloodiest, but only a truly demented mind would claim they
> were genocidal, as the Assyrians weren't, as the Assyrians responded against
> heresy, not against an ethnic group.

Are you _seriously_ claiming, Mr. self-eater, that T.N. Dupuy (an eminent
military historian), and his son E.N. Dupuy, both of whom between them
have published over _forty_ works of military history, are "truly
demented?"  

I think, Mr. self-eater, that your obviously insufferable ego just caused
you to insert both feet into your mouth! That, of course, _perfectly_ fits
your moniker to a tee!  

> >> > "The first new weapons of metallic age were the axe and the mace, the
> >> >dagger, and then the sword, The long thin blade that characterizes the
> >> >sword could not have been created until metallurgy had sufficiently
> >> >developed to permit the working of hard malleable metal. This occured in
> >> >the Bronze Age sometime before 2000 B.C., and the sword was probably
> >> >introduced into warfare by the Assyrians." (Dupuy, _The Harper
> >> >Encyclopedia of Military History_, pp.2-3.) 
> >> >
> >> Which means you're a meathead.
> >
> >Actually, Mr. self-eater, it means the Assyrians first introduced the
> >sword into warfare.
> >
> Please read in context, you were being quite stupid about 3500 B.C., and
> how much I was wrong, when in fact you were the one at fault.

Indeed, Mr. self-eater, you were _quite_ wrong in regard to your erroneous
assertion about Isrealite "genocide."

> >> >> ...which meant their swords would have been an adaption of the sickle 
> >> sword, which has no point. 
> >> >
> >> >Given that you were incorrect in your origional assumption about the
> >> >origions of the Israelites, your subsequent assumption about the type of
> >> >sword used is also suspect. Could you please provide _historical_ evidence
> >> >that the Israelites used "an adaption of the sickle sword?" Given that the
> >> >sword was most likely introduced by the Assyrians, would it not also be
> >> >likely that the type of sword  by patterned after the Assyrian sword i.e.-
> >> >"The long thin blade that characterizes the sword."? 
> >> >
> >> 
> >> Er no, it means you're a meathead.
> >
> >So you can't back up your claims about "sickle" swords with the historical
> >evidence, Mr. self-eater? Typical.
> >
> You are a try hard, aren't you?

Your continuing failure to substantiate your unssupported claims, Mr.
self-eater, does not go unnoticed.... 

> Once again your feeble attempt at winning this argument alludes you:
> 
> "By about 1500 BC the cutting ax had evolved into the sickle sword, a
> bronze sword with a curved, concave blade and a straight, thickened handle."
> 
> Encyclopedia Britannica, vol. 29, p.533.

Very good, Mr. self-eater! However, I fail to see "Egypt" or "Egyptian"
mentioned anywhere in your quote. 

Nice try but no cigar, Mr. self-eater.

> And why I say the Israelites adapted the Egyptian sickle sword, is because
> the Egyptian sword was designed for chariot warfare, not infantry.

And your evidence for this is? 

[snip]

> >> The sickle sword was the sword of the Egyptians.  
> >
> >Mr. self-eater, what historical evidence do you have that confirms that
> >the "sickle" sword was the "sword of the Egyptians?"
> >
> See above, O' desperate one.

Indeed. See above, Mr. self-eater.

> >> It was used in chariot warfare, since it is unlikely that the
Israelites had 
> >> chariots in  Joshua 8, then it is extremely likely that they adapted the 
> >> Egyptian's sickle sword for infantry use, or you just plain thick?
> >
> >And your historical evidence for all this is, Mr. self-eater? 
> >
> I can get hold of it....

Then I suggest you do, Mr. self-eater! 


> ...either that or you can ask Dr. A. J. Spalinger of
> the University of Auckland Classical department who specialty is Egyptian
> military history.

Rather, as it is _you_ who are making the assertions, I suggest _you_ get
hold of Dr. Spalinger, post his explination, and then provide a contact
for his so that it his explination may be independantly verified. 

> >The reason I ask, Mr. self-eater is that that I also recall somebody
> >claiming in regard to bayonets that:
> >
> >"'Blood grooves' are officially called 'fullers' :-)  They were there to
> >improve balance/speed and weight, not really for blood :-)"
> >
> >However, given that bayonets (especially most modern ones) are basically
> >knives, which are themselves patterned after daggers, the following it
> >intructional:
> >
> >"Blade cross-section (above) Variations in the sectional shape of the
> >blade usually represent attempts to combine narrowness with stiffness.
> >Parallel sides (A) are the  weakest shape. Convex (B) or concave formed by
> >grooves called fullers (C) are more rigid, as are ribs (D), a ridge (E) or
> >a diamond shape (F). The spike is used for stabbing (G) has no cutting
> >edge." _Weapons: an international encyclopedia from 5000 B.C.to 2000 A.D_,
> >p.26.) 
> >
> >Do you perhaps, Mr. self-eater, recall who this blustering fool was? I do. 
> >
> You are the blustering fool.  The bayonet was only one weapon that used
> fullers....

That is incorrect, Mr. self-eater. As noted above, daggers had fullers.
Swords too had fullers. The term "fuller" is simply the name of the design
artifact in producing a strong blade cross-section while keeping the blade
as light as possible. 

> ... as I said they weren't blood channels, they add more strength (as
> above)....

No, Mr. self-eater, you did not origionally say any such thing. You said:

"They were there to mprove balance/speed and weight, not really for blood :-)"

No mention of strength at all. Your backpeddaling is noted, btw, Mr. self-eater.

> and because you have taken away metal from the weapon they are
> therefore lighter (logic again, I'm afraid), and because they are lighter 
> the pommel (of a sword or dagger) is smaller, and hence the balance can be
> better (more logical reasoning, I'm afraid.)  What I said was 100% correct.
> As I said above, you are the blustering fool, I stand vindicated.

More like you stand convicted, by your own words, of being a blustering
and backpeddaling fool. Hardly suprising, I must add, as it seems to be a
common character flaw of deniers....

[snip]

BTW, Mr. self-eater did the Israelites of te Old Testament throw innocent
children into bonfires alive? The Nazis did for no other reason than
because they were Jewish.

"In Jerusalem there is a memorial site for the six million Jews murdered
by the Nazi's during World War 2. It is called Yad Vashem and was raised
1953. An avenue called "The Avenue of the Righteous" runs through this
site. The wind whispers continuously through the several hundred trees
planted there. Each and every tree has been planted to honor a non-Jewish
person risking his or her life to save Jews from the Nazi murderers." 


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Dec 27 11:37:28 PST 1996
Article: 89136 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MERRY CHRISTMAS FROM THE FREEDOM-SITE
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 06:26:07 -0700
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In article <32c03570.35661073@news.micron.net>, kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

> On Tue, 24 Dec 1996 04:06:30 GMT, 10@11.12 (Doc Benway) wrote:
> 
> >On 23 Dec 1996 23:58:42 GMT, aviatorp47@aol.com (Aviatorp47) wrote:
> >
> >>Aviator writes:
> >>
> >>Freedom-Site always with their hand out begging for money. Same with all
> >>the pro-Nazi folks. They are not in it out of conviction, but out of
> >>greed.
> >
> >>The Holocaust Happened, Get Used to It !!!
> >
> >       And you get used to defending the occurance of something for which
> >there is no physical evidence.  
> 
> The truth is getting out about Holocaust lies at an exponential rate.
> 
> 
> I personally think they're fucked.

A hardly suprising sentiment coming from a rabid anti-Semite and craven Nazi.

One can only wonder if Mr. Smith's keepers at the National Alliance
realize he has escaped his padded cell and is skulking about the digital
street corners haranguing passers-by with his insane diatribes? 
  
> Kurt Stele

Yes, it's true, this man has no dick.
       -Ghostbusters

> At the Nuremberg Tribunal, chief U.S. prosecutor Robert Jackson
> charged that the Germans invented" a device to instantaneously
> "vaporize" 20,000 Jews near Auschwitz "in such a way that there was no
> trace left of them." IMT blue series, Vol. 16, p. 529-530. (June 21,
> 1946).  No reputable historian now accepts this fanciful tale. 

And only pathetic little Nazis like Mr. Smith keep repeating such lies.
The absolute moral and intellectual depravity of Mr. Smith and his Nazi
ilk in continuing to promulgate this is revealed at: 

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/j/jackson.robert/vaporizing-device-context

For those interested in proof of National Alliance member Brian Smith's
(aka "Kurt Stele") rabid anti-Semitism, pathological Nazi apologia,
puerile lies, and that he possses an IQ of a fence post (not to mention a
sewer mouth) please visit:

http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/stele.kurt
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/smith.brian.r

"In Jerusalem there is a memorial site for the six million Jews murdered
by the Nazi's during World War 2. It is called Yad Vashem and was raised
1953. An avenue called "The Avenue of the Righteous" runs through this
site. The wind whispers continuously through the several hundred trees
planted there. Each and every tree has been planted to honor a non-Jewish
person risking his or her life to save Jews from the Nazi murderers." 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Dec 27 11:37:29 PST 1996
Article: 89165 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!pumpkin.pangea.ca!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Hall of Shame" - Documented Hate Speech on the Internet
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 03:18:02 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
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References: <59rp52$nu8@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
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In article <59rp52$nu8@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
kblewitt@ix.netcom.com(Kenneth T. Blewitt) wrote:

> Mark Van Alstine wrote:
> 
> >Blewitt wrote:
> 
> >>I thought Doc Tavish's listing of numerous vindictive and off-color
> >>statements by the Nizkor people was very pertinent.
> 
> >And pray tell, Mr. Blewitt, what do you make of the Mr. McTavish's
> "numerous vindictive and off-color statements" against Jews (and
> non-Jews)?  Or don't you consider the gutternipe's following comments a
> reprehensible display of anti-Semitism and hate?
>     [Numerous statements made by Doc Tavish followed.]
> 
>     Van Alstine, my opinion of Doc Tavish is very different from yours.
> I think that his postings on alt.revisionism have a decent moral tone. 

Then you find Mt. McTavishes anti-Semtitic comments of "decent moral tone?"

That speaks volumes of your morals, or rather lack thereof, Mr. Blewitt!

[Snipped as there is no point of serious discussion with such immoral people.]

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Dec 27 13:25:12 PST 1996
Article: 89262 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Blackmore's obtuse Postings
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 22:31:01 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
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In article <19961227110800.GAA13124@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
tutu101@aol.com (Tutu101) wrote:

> In reply to Curtis's "ObtuseBlackmore" post:  Michael, can you try to be
> more concise and less verbose.  If you want to argue withme,take it one
> point at a time.  Your long posts are simply too turgid, with too much
> material crammed in there.  As to your comments:
> 
> I don't believe your witness who claims she saw Grese beat someone to
> death.  

And your evidence of such is what exactly, Mr. Belling? 

> I happen to know that gratuitous beatings of inmates at Auschwitz
> were strictly prohibited.  

Where yo there, Mr. Belling? Or are you simply _assuming_ that because
"officially" such mistreatment of prisoners was suppossedly prohibited, it
didn't happen? How do you explain your "knowing" in light of numerous
testimonies by Nazis and inmates that such beatings took place and were
actually quite common? 

> Your witness never names the alleged victim or
> the alleged person who was with her. 

Why should this be this required Mr. Belling? Just so that you can toss
one more stumbling block in the path of truth? 

> All forms of corporal punishment had
> to be approved of in advance by authorities in Berlin.  

And do you have evidence that they _weren't_ approved of? 

> The very idea of little Irma Grese beating people to death with her
cellophane 
> whip is a joke.  

Ah, yes, the "cellophane" whip. But Olga Lengyel simply called it a whip
and noted that Grese "made liberal use" of it and that the prisoners'
"shrieks of pain" and "spurts of blood made her smile." (Lengyel, _Five
Chimneys_, pp.103-104.) And Grese also beat her with pistol and fists as
well:

"...With calculated deliberation, she took her revolver from her desk and
advanced toward me. We were a striking , I, close-cropped, clad in rags,
dirty, drenched from the rain, and she with her coiffed hair, her striking
beauty, and her artful makeup. Her impeccably tailored suit showed off her
lovely figure.

"'You swine,' she hissed between her teeth. I cringed from the cold barrel
of her revolver as she passed it over my left temple. I felt her hot
breath. 'You're afraid, aren't you?' 

"Suddenly, the butt of her gun came down on my head, once, twice, again
and again. She struck me full in the face with her fist, again and again.

"I tatsed my blood, I stumbled. I toppled on the wolskin. When I opened my
eyes I was lying outside in the mud, exposed to the rain which was still
falling. The camp bell was ringing for another 'selection.' Bruised,
covered with blood, I picked myself up and ran toward my barrack in order
not to miss the roll call.

"As I turned, I saw Irma Griese coming from the Fuererstube, her whip in
hand, to designate the next batch for the gas chamber. Why she did not
send me there, or shoot me, or put me to death in some more evil fashion,
I could never guess." (Ibid. pp.107-108.)  

> Grese was innocent.  

Grese was a sadistic torturer who selected prisoners for death in the gas
chambers at Auschwitz. 

> She never deserved to hang on the basis of
> unproved witchcraft like hysterical denunciations.  

The crimes for which Grese was tried, convicted of, and executed for were
neither "unproved witchcraft" nor "hysterical denunciations." Such will
not change no matter how times Mr. Belling makes "hysterical
denunciations" of "unproved witchcraft."

> And all this fuss and ado you raise about these issues is unconvincing and 
> reminds me of a Shakespearian line:  "Thou doth protest too much."

Actually, the evidence against Grese (and Kramer et. al.) at the Belsen
Trial was compelling. And if Mr. Belling is interested in quotes, perhaps
_he_ will take the following to heart:

"It is better to be silent, and be thought a fool, than to speak and
remove all doubt."
              -Silvan Engel


For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semtism, and outright lies,
please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Dec 27 13:25:13 PST 1996
Article: 89269 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.rel.christian,alt.religion.islam
Subject: Re: Nazi Atrocities?
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 00:42:26 -0700
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In article <5a00ce$sm2@lex.zippo.com>, Ourobouros wrote:

> In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
says...

[snip[

> >Mr. self-eater, as you seem to have a problem in figuring out what
> >"predates" means. Let me try again: The events in Genesis happened
> >_before_ those in Exodus. 
> >
> I have absolutely no problem with Genesis predating Exodus, it is you who has 
> the problem of acknowledging their stay in Egypt had some impact on their
> 'culture' or more particularly their skills.

Mr. self-eater, you have yet to offer any archeological/historical
evidence that the Hebrews actually stayed in Egypt. So far your have
relied on references to religious texts -some of which you appear to
arbitrarily discount and others which you don't. Not very impressive. 

> >Furthermore, Genesis 12:10 says that "Abram went down into Egypt to
> >sojourn there" and according to Genesis 13:1 "Abram went up out of Egypt."
> >There was, as far as I could tell, no mention of how long Abram dwelt in
> >Egypt. However, in Genesis 25:7 it is written that Abraham lived a
> >"hundred threescore and fifteen years." That would be one hundred
> >seventy-five years, I believe. If Abraham (i.e. Abram) lived to be one
> >hundred seventy-five years old, how could he have lived in Egypt for four
> >hundred years? 
> >
> >He couldn't, of course.
> >
> So what?

So obviously, Abram, the patriarch of the Hebrews, did not come from
Egypt. Nor did his descendants come from Egypt. Ergo, the Israelites did
not _originate_ from Egypt as you first claimed. (And now have backpeddled
away from by amendeding that they were merely influenced by their
captivity in Egypt.)  

[snip]

> >Uh huh. Like your erroneous claim (above) that Abraham lived in Egypt for
> >four hundred years?  
> >
> Er no, you have made it up, just like 3500 B.C. instead of 1500 B.C.

How odd.Mr. self-eater, did you not say in response to my pointing out
that Genesis predates Exodus, which was in the context that Abraham went
into to Egypt and then left, that "they left the land of Egypt, having
lived their for supposedly 400 years?" Yet you accuse me of making this
up? 

Rather, I suggest perhaps it is _your_ imprecise command of the English
language which is at the root of this "communications" problem? 

[snip]

> >Rather, I think, Mr. self-eater, it is quite obvious you are talking about
> >things you know not. 
> >
> ROTFL, it is quite obvious that you haven't a clue what logic is and isn't.

On the contrary, Mr. self-eater, I did rather well in my logic and
argumentation class in college.... This, of course, has nothing to do with
your speaking about things from ignorance. 

[snip]

> >Ah, Mr. self-eater, there is a difference between "muddled thinking" and
> >simply misreading 3500 and assuming 3500 B.C. It was an error I, at
> >least,  acknowledged. I _also_ pointed out that the time period you were
> >talking about- circa 1500 B.C. -made your claims about Israelite
> >"genocide" even _more_ ludicrous in lite of the Assyrians. 
> >
> Rubbish.  Are you somehow trying to assert the Israelites weren't genocidal?

Mr. self-eater, I am simply pointing out that _your_ particular claim that
the Israelites were "genocidal" and that this was somehow unique among the
various cultures during history is nothing but a strawman of _your_
contrivance. 

[snip]

> >I see. Given that you claim there is no recorded evidence (aside from
> >religious texts such as Genisis and Exodus etc., which explicitly show you
> >to be in err) that the Israelites were ever in Egypt, you made a "logical
> >deduction" that the Israelites _were_ in Egypt?! 
> >
> Er no, try again.
> 
> >And you then claim that "it is quite evident that logic" and _I_ "are
> >mutually exclusive?" ROTFL! What a blithering idiot you are, Mr
> >self-eater! What chutzpuh you have! 
> >
> Er no, try again.

Why? It is becoming clear that _you_ are not even clear about what _you_
keep posting!

[snip]

> >Amazing then, is it not, that the Hebrew alphabet is nearly identical to
> >the Assyrian alphabet? What a "coincidence" this is, considering that the
> >Assyrian Empire, by circa 1100 B.C., reached all the way from Mesopotamia
> >to the Mediterranean! And that by circa 750 .B.C. _all_ of Palestine and
> >Syria were under Assyrian dominion. 
> >
> Please re-read what I said, you have quite clearly not read or at least 
> understood it.
> 
> One of the big mysteries is why the Mesopotamians adopted the Aramenean 
> alphabet, which, btw, isn't Hebrew.

How odd then, that the Hebrew is remarkebly like the Assyrian alphabet. Or
at least it was the last time I visited my brother-in-law who is Assyrian
and has a tapestry of the Assyrian alphabet on a wall in his house. Not to
mention that my mother-in-law, who was the scribe for her Assyrian village
before she came to the U.S., also remarked at the similarity between the
Hebrew alphabet and the Assyrian alphabet....  

But then, what do Assyrians know about their culture and history? 

[snip]

> >And praytell, what does that say about _your_ "misreading" of Genesis? Thy
> >tongue, it appears, is a two-edged sword! Be careful, Mr. self-eater, lest
> >you be picking it up off the floor....
> >
> Please re-read what I actually wrote for once, it would improve communications
> immensely.

Why? It is becoming clear that _you_ are not even clear about what _you_
keep posting!

> >I see. Such petty insults from a person who can't even read Scriptures
> >correctly is hardly persuasive.... 
> >
> I see, your evidence is?

Why, your claim that the Israelites (i.e Hebrews) originated from Egypt,
of course. 

> >> >Of course, a date of 1500 B.C. makes your claims in regard to "genocide"
> >> >even more ridiculous, as circa 1400-600 B.C.the Assyrians were "the most
> >> >warlike people of the mMiddle East," being they were exceptionally cruel
> >> >and ferocious. "It was not unusual for them to kill every man, woman, and
> >> >child in captured cities. Sometimes they would carry away entire
> >> >populations into captivity." (cf. Dupuy, _The Harper Encyclopedia of
> >> >Military History_, pp.9,11.) 
> >> >
> >> They were not genocidal at all. They were extremely cruel, there is little
> >> doubt about that....   
> >
> >Really? And your evidence for this is? What, in your "opinion" makes the
> >Isrealirtes "genocidal" while the Assyrians are merely "extremely cruel?"
> >
> *sigh*
> 
> The Israelites recorded their over-willingness to wipe out entire populations,
> populations that had not insulted the Israelite people, but whose fault was
> living there.

How many "entire populations" did the Israelites "wipe out," Mr
self-eater? And how is this different, for example, from the Assyrian
practice of wiping out "entire populations?" 

> >> It was unusual for them to kill every man, woman and
> >> child in a captured city, unless they absolutely provoked the Assyrians, 
> >> and even then they typically butchered the leading citizens and moved the
> >> population elsewhere.  
> >
> >And your evidence for this is? Why none, of course! Mearely an empty
> >assertion on your part. I would (again) point out that you are
> >contradicted:
> >
> Try reading this book (one of many):
> 
> [1] G. Roux, _Ancient Iraq_, 3rd Ed., London, 1992.

Any particular pertinent passage you would like to quote, Mr. self-eater? 

> >"It was not unusual for them to kill every man, woman, and child in
> >captured cities. Sometimes they would carry away entire populations into
> >captivity." (cf. Dupuy, _The Harper Encyclopedia of Military History_,
> >pp.9,11.)
> >
> >Note the part about how "it was not unusual for them to kill every man,
> >woman, and child in captured cities." Key words here, of course, Mr.
> >self-eater, are "not unusual." 
> >
> It has been revised....

LOL! In other words, you were wrong and now you are trying to save face....

> ...yes they did on the occasion kill every man, woman and
> child, but only after they had completely rejected Assyrian hegemony.
> 
> >> To brief the Assyrians: their city God commanded the Assyrians on which
> >> cities should be captured, thus it was God's decree that a particular
> >> region should be under Assyrian hegemony.  
> >
> >And your evidence for this is? 
> >
> Read [1].

Any particular pertinent passage you would like to quote, Mr. self-eater? 

> >> If a city surrendered outright then there were absolutely no
problems, if a 
> >> city resisted then bloodshed happened, but the citizenry were not 
> >> slaughtered to a man.  
> >
> >And your evidence for this is? Given the above, it appears you are (at
> >best)  speculating.
> >
> Read [1].

Any particular pertinent passage you would like to quote, Mr. self-eater? 

> >> That city had attempted to defy Assur (the God of the Assyrians).  If a 
> >> city that was under Assyrian hegemony revolted then they were revolted 
> >> against Assur, and therefore they committed heresy.  
> >
> >And your evidence for this is?
> >
> Read [1].

Any particular pertinent passage you would like to quote, Mr. self-eater? 

> >> In this latter scenerio the Assyrians 
> >> were at their bloodiest, but only a truly demented mind would claim they
> >> were genocidal, as the Assyrians weren't, as the Assyrians responded 
> >> against heresy, not against an ethnic group.
> >
> >Are you _seriously_ claiming, Mr. self-eater, that T.N. Dupuy (an eminent
> >military historian), and his son E.N. Dupuy, both of whom between them
> >have published over _forty_ works of military history, are "truly
> >demented?"  
> >
> Er no, only your understanding and T.N. Dupuy date of writing.

Would you care to rephrase that in proper English, Mr. self-eater? You
seem to be saying, in spite of your denial, that the dates T.N. Dupuy
cites in regard to the Assyrians are indeed "truly demented."  

You of course, will back up such harsh accusations with factual evidence, yes?  

> >I think, Mr. self-eater, that your obviously insufferable ego just caused
> >you to insert both feet into your mouth! That, of course, _perfectly_ fits
> >your moniker to a tee!  
> >
> Er no, it only registers your wilful ignorance.

Given your obvious dissimulation and backpeddaling, Mr. self-eater, I
think it is more than obvious who is the willfully ignorant one here.... 

[snip]

> >> >Actually, Mr. self-eater, it means the Assyrians first introduced the
> >> >sword into warfare.
> >> >
> >> Please read in context, you were being quite stupid about 3500 B.C., and
> >> how much I was wrong, when in fact you were the one at fault.
> >
> >Indeed, Mr. self-eater, you were _quite_ wrong in regard to your erroneous
> >assertion about Isrealite "genocide."
> >
> No, I was not.

Then stop backpeddaling and prove it, Mr. self-eater. Prove _all_ your
origional accusations made the Israelites.

[snip]

> >> >So you can't back up your claims about "sickle" swords with the historical
> >> >evidence, Mr. self-eater? Typical.
> >> >
> >> You are a try hard, aren't you?
> >
> >Your continuing failure to substantiate your unssupported claims, Mr.
> >self-eater, does not go unnoticed.... 
> >
> Er no, you are a muddled thinker you have, so far, *extreme* difficulty with
> reading your opponents arguments.

Mr. self-eater, your continuing failure to substantiate your unssupported
claims, indicates otherwise. 

> >> Once again your feeble attempt at winning this argument alludes you:
> >> 
> >> "By about 1500 BC the cutting ax had evolved into the sickle sword, a
> >> bronze sword with a curved, concave blade and a straight, thickened
handle."
> >> 
> >> Encyclopedia Britannica, vol. 29, p.533.
> >
> >Very good, Mr. self-eater! However, I fail to see "Egypt" or "Egyptian"
> >mentioned anywhere in your quote. 
> >
> >Nice try but no cigar, Mr. self-eater.
> >
> The sickle sword was the standard, yes.  Each different 'nation' had their own
> peculiar trademark or sword in this case -- we can tell an Egyptian sickle
> sword from a Hatti sickle sword, for example. 

But, in your case, not what "fullers" are....  Your blade lore is less
than impressive, Mr. self-eater. _Can_ you, Mr. self-eater, give a full
citation that shows that the "Egyptian sickle-sword" was adopted by the
Israelites? Well? 

> Since the Israelites were in Egypt for x centuries...

When, Mr. self-eater? During what period were the Israelites in Egypt for
"x centuries?" Please provide archeological/historical evidence that they
were. So far you have simply cited religious texts. Some of which you
appear to arbitrarily discount to suit your purposes.... 

> ...and despite your disbelief otherwise, they would have
> learnt the Egyptian handicrafts.  

But not Assyrian, I take it? Even though Assyrian influence stretched from
Mesopotamia to the Mediterranean (circa 1000 B.C.)? Even though Palestine
was conquered and the Israelites made (rebellious) vassals to the
Assyrians (circa 750 B.C.)? 

> The Egyptian sickle sword has no point whatsoever, much like your arguments.

And quite unlike _your_ head, eh? 

> >> And why I say the Israelites adapted the Egyptian sickle sword, is because
> >> the Egyptian sword was designed for chariot warfare, not infantry.
> >
> >And your evidence for this is? 
> >
> *sigh*
> 
> Wilful ignorance triumphs in Mark van Alstin's reality.

No. Mr. self-eater, I am simply asking _you_ to substantiate your claims.
Instead, you make appeals to _your_ ersatz authority and respond with ad
hominems. Your continued refusal to substantite your claims is hardly
impressive, Mr self-eater. It only makes your position all the more
ridiculous. 

[snip]

> >> >Mr. self-eater, what historical evidence do you have that confirms that
> >> >the "sickle" sword was the "sword of the Egyptians?"
> >> >
> >> See above, O' desperate one.
> >
> >Indeed. See above, Mr. self-eater.
> >
> Yes, please do, try not only commenting on it, but actually do it as well.

Pot-Kettle-Black, Mr. self-eater.

[snip]

> >> ...either that or you can ask Dr. A. J. Spalinger of
> >> the University of Auckland Classical department who specialty is Egyptian
> >> military history.
> >
> >Rather, as it is _you_ who are making the assertions, I suggest _you_ get
> >hold of Dr. Spalinger, post his explination, and then provide a contact
> >for his so that it his explination may be independantly verified. 
> >
> Prove me wrong.  

Rather, Mr. self-eater, _prove_ yourself right! Get hold of Dr. Spalinger,
post his explination, and then provide a contact for his so that it his
explination may be independantly verified. 

> Dr. Spalinger gives lectures on ancient Egyptian warfare,  which I note
you don't.

And neither do you, Mr. self-eater. 

[snip]

>> You are the blustering fool.  The bayonet was only one weapon that used
>> fullers....
>
> >That is incorrect, Mr. self-eater. As noted above, daggers had fullers.
> >Swords too had fullers. The term "fuller" is simply the name of the design
> >artifact in producing a strong blade cross-section while keeping the blade
> >as light as possible. 
> >
> >> ... as I said they weren't blood channels, they add more strength (as
> >> above)....
> >
> >No, Mr. self-eater, you did not origionally say any such thing. You said:
> >
> >"They were there to mprove balance/speed and weight, 
> >not really for blood :-)"
> >
> >No mention of strength at all. Your backpeddaling is noted, btw, 
> >Mr. self-eater.
> >

> AND, O' misappropriatively strong one, I said in another post you
responded too, that strength was another reason for fullers, and I forgot
to include in the above quote.  Do you excel in wilful stupidity or
something?

I see. Was it, perhaps, the following:

Subject:      Re: Nazi Atrocities?
From:         Ourobouros
Date:         1996/12/24
Message-Id:   <59oasc$bql@lex.zippo.com>



>> >> Even people in the know believe this, and I would think that a
>> >> goodly number of books on swords would record it as so.  One other 
>> >> category I forgot to list in another post is fullers add strength to the 
>> >> weapon (daggers and knives often come with fullers.)
>> >
>> >Again, do you have an authoritative _citation_ for this? 
>> >
>> Offhand citation no, but I do make the occasional sword and dagger, plus I
>> fight with them.



My apologies then, Mr. self-eater, as I see that you _did_ mention
strength in passing. However, in all fairness, I would point out that your
claims were unsubstantiated, that you admitted you could not confirm your
claims, that you have subsequentlly _refused_ to substantiate them, and
that you even contradict yourself in said claims:

"I forgot to list in another post is fullers add strength to the  weapon
(daggers and knives often come with fullers.)"

"You are the blustering fool.  The bayonet was only one weapon that used
fullers...."

One could, given the above, I think, pardon my skepticism of your claims.
Especially so when _I_ researched _your_ claims after _you_ refused to, 
providing a full citation that confirmed that the purpose of fullers was
to provide strength to the blade. (Any blade, btw.) 

Given all this, one might also question who was actually "excelling in
wilful [sic] stupidity."

[snip]

> >BTW, Mr. self-eater did the Israelites of te Old Testament throw innocent
> >children into bonfires alive? The Nazis did for no other reason than
> >because they were Jewish.
> >
> >"In Jerusalem there is a memorial site for the six million Jews murdered
> >by the Nazi's during World War 2. It is called Yad Vashem and was raised
> >1953. An avenue called "The Avenue of the Righteous" runs through this
> >site. The wind whispers continuously through the several hundred trees
> >planted there. Each and every tree has been planted to honor a non-Jewish
> >person risking his or her life to save Jews from the Nazi murderers." 
> >
> Your primary source citation for this is what?

For what, Mr. self-eater? The fact that the Nazis tossed children into
bonfires (i.e. incineration pits) or the quote about the The Avenue of the
Righteous? 

BTW, Mr. self-eater, don't you even feel the slightest bit hypocritical in
asking for citations when _you_ typically refuse to provide them yourself?
(Even when you do, one must endlessly badger you until you actually do!) 

"The truth is spread on the record before us, and all we have to do is
state the truth plainly. The German militarists joined forces with Hitler
and with him created the Third Reich; with him they deliberately made a
world in which might was all that mattered; with him him they plunged the
world into war, and spread terror and devestation over the continent of
Europe. They dealt a blow at all mankind; a blow so savage and foul that
the conscience of the world will reel for years to come. This was not war;
it was crime. This was not soldiering; it was savagery. We cannot make
history over again, but we can see that it is written true."  -Telford
Taylor

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Dec 27 15:13:12 PST 1996
Article: 89274 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: False witness/ethnic ethic/rock ...hard place/desperation
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 21:51:35 -0700
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In article <19961227105800.FAA13038@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
tutu101@aol.com (Tutu101) wrote:

> In response to Mark Van Alstine's boring apologia of the Wiesenthal
> Center:
> 
> Bah!  Humbug!

Ah, evidently Mr. Belling recieved a lump of coal in his stocking! 

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semtism, and outright lies,
please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Dec 27 15:13:13 PST 1996
Article: 89289 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.rel.christian,alt.religion.islam
Subject: Re: Nazi Atrocities?
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 02:30:33 -0700
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In article <5a02jd$lo@lex.zippo.com>, Ourobouros wrote:

> In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
says...
> >
> >In article <59oasc$bql@lex.zippo.com>, Ourobouros wrote:
> >
> >> In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
> >says...
> >
> >[snip]
> >
> >> >Feel free to cite what you have "studied.". What? You didn't study any
> >> >such thing? Oops.
> >> >
> >> Ancient Near Eastern civilisations, O' half-wit.
> >
> >And what "Ancient Near Eastern civilisations" syllabus was this, Mr.
> >self-eater? What texts were used? Hmmm? 
> >
> The University of Auckland has a course in (ancient) Mesopotamian and Egyptian
> history.

And you took this course? What texts were used? 

> >Your continued avoidance of citing any supportive texts, simply relying on
> >appeals to _your_ ersatz "authority" is duly noted, Mr. self-eater. Hardly
> >impressive, to say the least....
> >
> Your opinions aren't worth a lot either...

But then, I tend to _not_ rely on my _opnions_, but those of authoritative
scholars! And I generally provide quotes and full citations to them when I
do. 

> >> >> Please point out cases of genocide in any group other than
> >> >> Jews in B.C. (ancient) times.  I'm waiting...
> >> >
> >> >Actually, I think it best that _you_ first document the historical
> >> >evidence for genocide by the Israelites. 
> >> >
> >> The book of Joshua seems to be pretty conclusive.

The book of Joshua is a religious text not archeological/historical
evidence. You seem to accept or reject religious texts whenever it suits
your purposes, Mr. self-eater. Considering this, you are hardly
persuasive...

Not to mention that it is not conclusive that the inahbitants of the city
of Ai were a unique ethinic group. (Actually, considering the demographics
of Palestaine and Syria, it would be suprising if the inhabitants of Ai
_were_ a unique ethnic group!) 

> >And your the archeological/historical evidence that such a religious text
> >is true is, Mr. self-eater? BTW, Mr. self-eater, I find it rather
> >hypocritical of you that on one hand you claim, without reason, that the
> >book of Genesis is historically inaccurate while accepting  the book of
> >Joshua, again woithout reason, is historically accurate....
> >
> O' uncomprehending one, the Israelites obviously felt so proud of origins and
> tactics (mythological or not) that they recorded them in the way they did
> (obvious really).  

Which, of course, does not proves any relevance tof the
archeological/historical record. 

> Which, if you cannot already guess, they were proud of
> having genocidal ancestry.

You have yet to even substantiate, Mr. self-eater, that the Israelites
even committed _genocide_. Yet you claim to _know_ that the Israelites
were proud of having genocidal ancestry."

Such unsubstantiated beliefs as yours, Mr. self-eater, smack of
anti-Semtism. I can't say I'm suprised by them. 

[snip]

> >> >> You could read some modern (comprehensive) books of Sumeria, meathead.
> >> >
> >> >Again, feel free to cite them. What? You don't know of any off-hand?
Pity. 
> >> >
> >> They're freely available.
> >
> >In other words, you haven't the slightest clue? How odd for a "scholor" of
> >"Ancient Near Eastern civilisations!" 
> >
> Some things are kept in the forefront of my mind, other things are not.  There
> are the battles of Hammurapi and his father for example -- they were fond of
> damming the Euprates river to conquer cities.  There are the battles of the
> Sumerians and the Elamites, the Sumerians and the Guti and so forth.  Some are
> recorded in detail, some are only referred too.

Again, feel free to cite these texts, Mr. self-eater.

[snip]

> >> We are/were talking about ancient civilisations, not modern.
> >
> >I wasn't. Nor were you, as you are trying to white-wash Nazi genocide by
> >dragging the red herring of ancient Israelite "genocide" across the road. 
> >
> Er no, I entered this conversation early, Doc Tavish was using the ancient
> Israelites genocidal history from the onset, you on the other hand, keep 
> yourself close-minded totally.  You were the one using the red herring with
> Armenia, so please don't try anymore BS with me using red herrings, O' witless
> one.

I see. So it was Mr. McTavish who was white-washing Nazi genocide and
_you_ just jumped in to give a helping hand? Such anti-Semitic solidarity!


[snip]

> >> >> ...and her subject states being democracies, please read the history
> >> >> of the Peloponnesian war in respect to Athens, Mitylene (revolt) and 
> >> >> Samos.
> >> >
> >> >Why? _I_ was talking about Rome. 
> >> >
> >> And I was talking about both.
> >
> >Then, despite your protests, you _were_ asserting that Rome was a
> >democracy when,  in fact, it was not! Tsk tsk, Mr. self-eater! Such a
> >tangled web you attempt to weave... Then, despite your protests, you
> >_were_ asserting that Rome was a democracy when,  in fact, it was not! 
> >Tsk tsk, Mr. self-eater! Such a tangled web you attempt to weave... 
> >
> >Mr. self-eater, Don't you find it the _least_ bit embarrassing when you
> >blatantly contradict yourself like this? 
> >
> Er no.  Firstly, I would never state (ancient) Rome had a democracy...

But you just _did_, Mr. self-eater! See above! 

Methinks _thou_ art the witless one! 

> ...(though one contemporary historian said that Rome had all three major 
> Aristotle governments -- Monarchy, aristocracy, and democracy
simultaneously.)  
> Secondly, I said Athens had a democracy, and as a democracy she attacked
other 
> democracies and sometimes with extreme prejudice; refer the original decision 
> on Mitylene.

And I said I was responding to your claims about Rome having a democracy. Duh.

> >> >> As for Carthage; brutal as it was, this was still not an act of 
> >> >> genocide...
> >> >
> >> >Funny that there were no more Carthegians after Rome destroyed 
> >> >Carthage.... 
> >> >
> >> Rot.  There was a Carthaginian empire you know...
> >
> >And one could just as easily point out that there were Hittites,
> >Phillistines, Phoenicians, Arameans, etc as well the Isrealites in
> >Palestine and Syria. Can you tell me what ethnic group the people of the
> >city of Ai belonged to? If they were part of a larger ethnic group, the
> >desctruction of Ai and the killing of its inhabitants is no different that
> >the Roman destruction of Carthage. Or the Assyrian practice of killing the
> >inhabitants of a city to the last man, woman, and child. 
> >
> *sigh*
> 
> The practise of the Levantine area down to Egypt was that of city states.  

As it was in Ancient Greece, for example. As it was in the Italy prior to
the rise of the Roman Republic. (And after the fall of the Roman Empire.)
As it was in early Mesopotamia. As it was in early Egypt itself. 

> The Carthaginians on the other hand (even though they were Phoenicians) had a 
> completely different set up, they had an Empire.  

Alexander too had an empire.... As did Sargon and Ramses etc. 

> Their ethosity was somewhat larger than a city state, though I somehow doubt 
> you'd know or ever realise that.

What I think you are failing to realize, Mr. self-eater, is that simply
because a city-state is a seperate political/geographic entity does not
always mean that it  a seperate _ethnic_ entity. The city-states of
Ancient Greece, for exanmple, were ethnically the same: they were all
Greeks. The same can be said of the city-states of medievil Italy: they
were all Italians. You have yet to offer any credible evidence that the
inhabitants of Ai were in fact a seperate and unique ethnicity from the
rest of "Levantine." 

If they were not, your claims of Israelite "genocide" are groundless and
nothing more than mendacious drivel -and arguably anti-Semitic slander. 

I would suggest to you, Mr. self-eater,that quickly offer some credible
evidence (i.e. archeological) that indicates the the inhabitants of Ai
were indeed a unique ethnic peoples. 

> >And, of course, you could also provide the archeological/historical
> >evididence (comaprable to that of the existance and destruction of
> >Carthage) that the city of Ai actually existed, and that the Israelites
> >actually destroyed it, killing all of its inhabitants. 
> >
> >Will you? _Can_ you?
> >
> The Israelites were proud of their history

Irrelevent. The Irash, for example, are proud of theirs. The Irish also
have some _very_ interesting folk tales. 

> ...AND more importantly, what evidence do you have that Ai never existed?  

Mr. self-eater, I'm not claiming that Ai didn't exist -or that it did. I'm
asking _you_ to _prove_ Ai existed AND that its inhabitants were a unique
ethnic peoples. 

> This is in lieu of the extremely  important
> city we call Agade -- it has never ever been discovered, therefore according
> to your reasoning, it never existed.

I made no claims about Agade, Mr. self-eater, why do you make up fictions
that I did? 

> The city of Ai may have been discovered anyway; refer A. Hegev, _The 
> Archaeological Encyclopedia of the Holy Land_, Jerusalem, 1986, p. 20-22.

_May_ have, Mr. self-eater? That _also_ means it may _not_ have been discovered.

Lame.  

> >> >> for the other settlements of Carthaginians were not eradicated...
> >> >
> >> >What _other_ settlements? BY the Third Punic War Carthage was stripped of
> >> >all her territories and colonies except for Carthage itself. 
> >> >
> >> She once had an empire...
> >
> >See above regarding the city of Ai. 
> >
> Understand logic.

You do? I beg to differ. You have yet to evidence any such understanding,
Mr. self-eater. 

> >> >> ie., there was no active genocidal program, the city of Carthage 
> >> >>was _the_ enemy of Rome.
> >> >
> >> >Tell that to the Carthegians who were killed and enslaved. 
> >> >
> >> They were on the losing side, and therefore paid the penalty for trying to
> >> conquer Rome.
> >
> >So was Ai. (On the losing side.) What then makes Ai so special? (Other
> >than your obvious dislike of Jews.) 
> >
> According to the biblical narrative, the inhabitants of Ai made no aggressive
> move on the Israelites. 

Actually, the Israelites, according to Joshua 7:4 _first_ took "about
three thousand men" who in battle "fled before the men of Ai."  

Did the king if Ai sue for peace? No. So, evidently, the Israelites did
the same thing the Assyrians did when faced with similar circumstances:
They then attacked in full force and razed the city, killing all the
inhabitants. And why? To set an example and inspire fear lest, as is
written in Joshua 7:9, "the Canaanites and all the inhabitants of the land
shall hear [of it], and shall environ us round, and cut off our name from
the earth..." Which is also what the Assyrians did. 

> The Romans didn't try and extinguish the Carthaginians,

Really, Then why was Cathage razed, most her inhabitants killed, and the
rest taken as slaves by order of the Roman Senate? Sure sounds like Rome
wanted to put an end to the city-state of Carthage to me! 

> unlike the Israelites versus the Canaanites.

Given the above, Mr. self-eater, I suggest you re-think your claim.... 

[snip]

> >Mr. self-eater, are you saying the book of Joshua is non-existent? Or
> >rather, the acts depocted therein are non-existent? If so, _why_ are you
> >trying to "compare" non-existent Israelite genocide to the extremely well
> >documented fact of the Nazi genocide of European Jewry? 
> >
> Where the hell do you live?  Dreamland?

That's an non-answer, Mr. self-eater. Why do you avoid giving an answer?
Perhaps because you _are_ trying to "compare" non-existent Israelite
genocide to the extremely well documented fact of the Nazi genocide of
European Jewry and don't wish to admit to such a puerile ploy? 

[snip]

> If the Nazi genocide of European Jewry was so well documented then there would
> be a lot of primary source material proving the holocaust

Indeed there is, Mr. self-eater. Of course, when confronted with this
primary source material, deniers (yourself included) pull their heads into
the collective shell and deny the existance of said evidence. 

> ...and if that were so then you would not have replied with such a knee-jerk 
> reaction.  

A reaction to _what_, exactly, Mr. self-eater? Your attempts to white-wash
the Nazi genocide of European Jews? 

> Since you have admitted that the Nazi genocide of European Jewry is so well 
> documented, let us see your primary source citations for such an event.  

You mean that you, a "student" of Middle Eastern history, does not know
where to find literature on Holocaust studies? Amazing.

But to answer your puerile demand, Mr. self-eater, evidence for the
Holocaust can be found in the captured Nazi documents dealing with the
Einsatzgruppen, the concentration and extermination camps, and the
railroad transport sytstem that carried the victims to their deaths. (cf.
Hilberg, _The Destruction of European Jewry_). Evidence can also be found
in captured photos and diaries etc. (i.e. the "Kurt Franz Album;" cf.
Czech, _KL Auschwitz as seen by the SS_; _Auschwitz Album_). Evidence of
Nazi genocide can be found in the eyewitness testimonies of _both_ the
perpetrators and victims (cf. Lanzmann, _Shoah_). _Primary_ evidence of
Nazi genocide can be found, for example, in the physical evidence at the
extermination complexes of Treblinka and Auschwitz (cf. Arad, _Belzec,
Sobobor, Treblinka_; Pressac, _Auschwitz: technique and operation of the
gas chambers_);  as well as at the many mass graves where the
Einsatsgruppen buried their victims (cf. Berenbaum, _The World Must
Know_). 

A not insignificant portion of this veritable mountain of evidence can be
found on-line at: 

http://www.nizkor.org/

> We are waiting... and please, no more feeble dodging.

This from a "person" who has raised feeble (febrile!) dodging to an art form! 


"The truth is spread on the record before us, and all we have to do is
state the truth plainly. The German militarists joined forces with Hitler
and with him created the Third Reich; with him they deliberately made a
world in which might was all that mattered; with him him they plunged the
world into war, and spread terror and devestation over the continent of
Europe. They dealt a blow at all mankind; a blow so savage and foul that
the conscience of the world will reel for years to come. This was not war;
it was crime. This was not soldiering; it was savagery. We cannot make
history over again, but we can see that it is written true."  -Telford
Taylor

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Dec 27 15:26:42 PST 1996
Article: 40926 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.rel.christian,alt.religion.islam
Subject: Re: Nazi Atrocities?
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 02:30:33 -0700
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In article <5a02jd$lo@lex.zippo.com>, Ourobouros wrote:

> In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
says...
> >
> >In article <59oasc$bql@lex.zippo.com>, Ourobouros wrote:
> >
> >> In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
> >says...
> >
> >[snip]
> >
> >> >Feel free to cite what you have "studied.". What? You didn't study any
> >> >such thing? Oops.
> >> >
> >> Ancient Near Eastern civilisations, O' half-wit.
> >
> >And what "Ancient Near Eastern civilisations" syllabus was this, Mr.
> >self-eater? What texts were used? Hmmm? 
> >
> The University of Auckland has a course in (ancient) Mesopotamian and Egyptian
> history.

And you took this course? What texts were used? 

> >Your continued avoidance of citing any supportive texts, simply relying on
> >appeals to _your_ ersatz "authority" is duly noted, Mr. self-eater. Hardly
> >impressive, to say the least....
> >
> Your opinions aren't worth a lot either...

But then, I tend to _not_ rely on my _opnions_, but those of authoritative
scholars! And I generally provide quotes and full citations to them when I
do. 

> >> >> Please point out cases of genocide in any group other than
> >> >> Jews in B.C. (ancient) times.  I'm waiting...
> >> >
> >> >Actually, I think it best that _you_ first document the historical
> >> >evidence for genocide by the Israelites. 
> >> >
> >> The book of Joshua seems to be pretty conclusive.

The book of Joshua is a religious text not archeological/historical
evidence. You seem to accept or reject religious texts whenever it suits
your purposes, Mr. self-eater. Considering this, you are hardly
persuasive...

Not to mention that it is not conclusive that the inahbitants of the city
of Ai were a unique ethinic group. (Actually, considering the demographics
of Palestaine and Syria, it would be suprising if the inhabitants of Ai
_were_ a unique ethnic group!) 

> >And your the archeological/historical evidence that such a religious text
> >is true is, Mr. self-eater? BTW, Mr. self-eater, I find it rather
> >hypocritical of you that on one hand you claim, without reason, that the
> >book of Genesis is historically inaccurate while accepting  the book of
> >Joshua, again woithout reason, is historically accurate....
> >
> O' uncomprehending one, the Israelites obviously felt so proud of origins and
> tactics (mythological or not) that they recorded them in the way they did
> (obvious really).  

Which, of course, does not proves any relevance tof the
archeological/historical record. 

> Which, if you cannot already guess, they were proud of
> having genocidal ancestry.

You have yet to even substantiate, Mr. self-eater, that the Israelites
even committed _genocide_. Yet you claim to _know_ that the Israelites
were proud of having genocidal ancestry."

Such unsubstantiated beliefs as yours, Mr. self-eater, smack of
anti-Semtism. I can't say I'm suprised by them. 

[snip]

> >> >> You could read some modern (comprehensive) books of Sumeria, meathead.
> >> >
> >> >Again, feel free to cite them. What? You don't know of any off-hand?
Pity. 
> >> >
> >> They're freely available.
> >
> >In other words, you haven't the slightest clue? How odd for a "scholor" of
> >"Ancient Near Eastern civilisations!" 
> >
> Some things are kept in the forefront of my mind, other things are not.  There
> are the battles of Hammurapi and his father for example -- they were fond of
> damming the Euprates river to conquer cities.  There are the battles of the
> Sumerians and the Elamites, the Sumerians and the Guti and so forth.  Some are
> recorded in detail, some are only referred too.

Again, feel free to cite these texts, Mr. self-eater.

[snip]

> >> We are/were talking about ancient civilisations, not modern.
> >
> >I wasn't. Nor were you, as you are trying to white-wash Nazi genocide by
> >dragging the red herring of ancient Israelite "genocide" across the road. 
> >
> Er no, I entered this conversation early, Doc Tavish was using the ancient
> Israelites genocidal history from the onset, you on the other hand, keep 
> yourself close-minded totally.  You were the one using the red herring with
> Armenia, so please don't try anymore BS with me using red herrings, O' witless
> one.

I see. So it was Mr. McTavish who was white-washing Nazi genocide and
_you_ just jumped in to give a helping hand? Such anti-Semitic solidarity!


[snip]

> >> >> ...and her subject states being democracies, please read the history
> >> >> of the Peloponnesian war in respect to Athens, Mitylene (revolt) and 
> >> >> Samos.
> >> >
> >> >Why? _I_ was talking about Rome. 
> >> >
> >> And I was talking about both.
> >
> >Then, despite your protests, you _were_ asserting that Rome was a
> >democracy when,  in fact, it was not! Tsk tsk, Mr. self-eater! Such a
> >tangled web you attempt to weave... Then, despite your protests, you
> >_were_ asserting that Rome was a democracy when,  in fact, it was not! 
> >Tsk tsk, Mr. self-eater! Such a tangled web you attempt to weave... 
> >
> >Mr. self-eater, Don't you find it the _least_ bit embarrassing when you
> >blatantly contradict yourself like this? 
> >
> Er no.  Firstly, I would never state (ancient) Rome had a democracy...

But you just _did_, Mr. self-eater! See above! 

Methinks _thou_ art the witless one! 

> ...(though one contemporary historian said that Rome had all three major 
> Aristotle governments -- Monarchy, aristocracy, and democracy
simultaneously.)  
> Secondly, I said Athens had a democracy, and as a democracy she attacked
other 
> democracies and sometimes with extreme prejudice; refer the original decision 
> on Mitylene.

And I said I was responding to your claims about Rome having a democracy. Duh.

> >> >> As for Carthage; brutal as it was, this was still not an act of 
> >> >> genocide...
> >> >
> >> >Funny that there were no more Carthegians after Rome destroyed 
> >> >Carthage.... 
> >> >
> >> Rot.  There was a Carthaginian empire you know...
> >
> >And one could just as easily point out that there were Hittites,
> >Phillistines, Phoenicians, Arameans, etc as well the Isrealites in
> >Palestine and Syria. Can you tell me what ethnic group the people of the
> >city of Ai belonged to? If they were part of a larger ethnic group, the
> >desctruction of Ai and the killing of its inhabitants is no different that
> >the Roman destruction of Carthage. Or the Assyrian practice of killing the
> >inhabitants of a city to the last man, woman, and child. 
> >
> *sigh*
> 
> The practise of the Levantine area down to Egypt was that of city states.  

As it was in Ancient Greece, for example. As it was in the Italy prior to
the rise of the Roman Republic. (And after the fall of the Roman Empire.)
As it was in early Mesopotamia. As it was in early Egypt itself. 

> The Carthaginians on the other hand (even though they were Phoenicians) had a 
> completely different set up, they had an Empire.  

Alexander too had an empire.... As did Sargon and Ramses etc. 

> Their ethosity was somewhat larger than a city state, though I somehow doubt 
> you'd know or ever realise that.

What I think you are failing to realize, Mr. self-eater, is that simply
because a city-state is a seperate political/geographic entity does not
always mean that it  a seperate _ethnic_ entity. The city-states of
Ancient Greece, for exanmple, were ethnically the same: they were all
Greeks. The same can be said of the city-states of medievil Italy: they
were all Italians. You have yet to offer any credible evidence that the
inhabitants of Ai were in fact a seperate and unique ethnicity from the
rest of "Levantine." 

If they were not, your claims of Israelite "genocide" are groundless and
nothing more than mendacious drivel -and arguably anti-Semitic slander. 

I would suggest to you, Mr. self-eater,that quickly offer some credible
evidence (i.e. archeological) that indicates the the inhabitants of Ai
were indeed a unique ethnic peoples. 

> >And, of course, you could also provide the archeological/historical
> >evididence (comaprable to that of the existance and destruction of
> >Carthage) that the city of Ai actually existed, and that the Israelites
> >actually destroyed it, killing all of its inhabitants. 
> >
> >Will you? _Can_ you?
> >
> The Israelites were proud of their history

Irrelevent. The Irash, for example, are proud of theirs. The Irish also
have some _very_ interesting folk tales. 

> ...AND more importantly, what evidence do you have that Ai never existed?  

Mr. self-eater, I'm not claiming that Ai didn't exist -or that it did. I'm
asking _you_ to _prove_ Ai existed AND that its inhabitants were a unique
ethnic peoples. 

> This is in lieu of the extremely  important
> city we call Agade -- it has never ever been discovered, therefore according
> to your reasoning, it never existed.

I made no claims about Agade, Mr. self-eater, why do you make up fictions
that I did? 

> The city of Ai may have been discovered anyway; refer A. Hegev, _The 
> Archaeological Encyclopedia of the Holy Land_, Jerusalem, 1986, p. 20-22.

_May_ have, Mr. self-eater? That _also_ means it may _not_ have been discovered.

Lame.  

> >> >> for the other settlements of Carthaginians were not eradicated...
> >> >
> >> >What _other_ settlements? BY the Third Punic War Carthage was stripped of
> >> >all her territories and colonies except for Carthage itself. 
> >> >
> >> She once had an empire...
> >
> >See above regarding the city of Ai. 
> >
> Understand logic.

You do? I beg to differ. You have yet to evidence any such understanding,
Mr. self-eater. 

> >> >> ie., there was no active genocidal program, the city of Carthage 
> >> >>was _the_ enemy of Rome.
> >> >
> >> >Tell that to the Carthegians who were killed and enslaved. 
> >> >
> >> They were on the losing side, and therefore paid the penalty for trying to
> >> conquer Rome.
> >
> >So was Ai. (On the losing side.) What then makes Ai so special? (Other
> >than your obvious dislike of Jews.) 
> >
> According to the biblical narrative, the inhabitants of Ai made no aggressive
> move on the Israelites. 

Actually, the Israelites, according to Joshua 7:4 _first_ took "about
three thousand men" who in battle "fled before the men of Ai."  

Did the king if Ai sue for peace? No. So, evidently, the Israelites did
the same thing the Assyrians did when faced with similar circumstances:
They then attacked in full force and razed the city, killing all the
inhabitants. And why? To set an example and inspire fear lest, as is
written in Joshua 7:9, "the Canaanites and all the inhabitants of the land
shall hear [of it], and shall environ us round, and cut off our name from
the earth..." Which is also what the Assyrians did. 

> The Romans didn't try and extinguish the Carthaginians,

Really, Then why was Cathage razed, most her inhabitants killed, and the
rest taken as slaves by order of the Roman Senate? Sure sounds like Rome
wanted to put an end to the city-state of Carthage to me! 

> unlike the Israelites versus the Canaanites.

Given the above, Mr. self-eater, I suggest you re-think your claim.... 

[snip]

> >Mr. self-eater, are you saying the book of Joshua is non-existent? Or
> >rather, the acts depocted therein are non-existent? If so, _why_ are you
> >trying to "compare" non-existent Israelite genocide to the extremely well
> >documented fact of the Nazi genocide of European Jewry? 
> >
> Where the hell do you live?  Dreamland?

That's an non-answer, Mr. self-eater. Why do you avoid giving an answer?
Perhaps because you _are_ trying to "compare" non-existent Israelite
genocide to the extremely well documented fact of the Nazi genocide of
European Jewry and don't wish to admit to such a puerile ploy? 

[snip]

> If the Nazi genocide of European Jewry was so well documented then there would
> be a lot of primary source material proving the holocaust

Indeed there is, Mr. self-eater. Of course, when confronted with this
primary source material, deniers (yourself included) pull their heads into
the collective shell and deny the existance of said evidence. 

> ...and if that were so then you would not have replied with such a knee-jerk 
> reaction.  

A reaction to _what_, exactly, Mr. self-eater? Your attempts to white-wash
the Nazi genocide of European Jews? 

> Since you have admitted that the Nazi genocide of European Jewry is so well 
> documented, let us see your primary source citations for such an event.  

You mean that you, a "student" of Middle Eastern history, does not know
where to find literature on Holocaust studies? Amazing.

But to answer your puerile demand, Mr. self-eater, evidence for the
Holocaust can be found in the captured Nazi documents dealing with the
Einsatzgruppen, the concentration and extermination camps, and the
railroad transport sytstem that carried the victims to their deaths. (cf.
Hilberg, _The Destruction of European Jewry_). Evidence can also be found
in captured photos and diaries etc. (i.e. the "Kurt Franz Album;" cf.
Czech, _KL Auschwitz as seen by the SS_; _Auschwitz Album_). Evidence of
Nazi genocide can be found in the eyewitness testimonies of _both_ the
perpetrators and victims (cf. Lanzmann, _Shoah_). _Primary_ evidence of
Nazi genocide can be found, for example, in the physical evidence at the
extermination complexes of Treblinka and Auschwitz (cf. Arad, _Belzec,
Sobobor, Treblinka_; Pressac, _Auschwitz: technique and operation of the
gas chambers_);  as well as at the many mass graves where the
Einsatsgruppen buried their victims (cf. Berenbaum, _The World Must
Know_). 

A not insignificant portion of this veritable mountain of evidence can be
found on-line at: 

http://www.nizkor.org/

> We are waiting... and please, no more feeble dodging.

This from a "person" who has raised feeble (febrile!) dodging to an art form! 


"The truth is spread on the record before us, and all we have to do is
state the truth plainly. The German militarists joined forces with Hitler
and with him created the Third Reich; with him they deliberately made a
world in which might was all that mattered; with him him they plunged the
world into war, and spread terror and devestation over the continent of
Europe. They dealt a blow at all mankind; a blow so savage and foul that
the conscience of the world will reel for years to come. This was not war;
it was crime. This was not soldiering; it was savagery. We cannot make
history over again, but we can see that it is written true."  -Telford
Taylor

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Dec 27 15:27:54 PST 1996
Article: 53694 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.rel.christian,alt.religion.islam
Subject: Re: Nazi Atrocities?
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 02:30:33 -0700
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In article <5a02jd$lo@lex.zippo.com>, Ourobouros wrote:

> In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
says...
> >
> >In article <59oasc$bql@lex.zippo.com>, Ourobouros wrote:
> >
> >> In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
> >says...
> >
> >[snip]
> >
> >> >Feel free to cite what you have "studied.". What? You didn't study any
> >> >such thing? Oops.
> >> >
> >> Ancient Near Eastern civilisations, O' half-wit.
> >
> >And what "Ancient Near Eastern civilisations" syllabus was this, Mr.
> >self-eater? What texts were used? Hmmm? 
> >
> The University of Auckland has a course in (ancient) Mesopotamian and Egyptian
> history.

And you took this course? What texts were used? 

> >Your continued avoidance of citing any supportive texts, simply relying on
> >appeals to _your_ ersatz "authority" is duly noted, Mr. self-eater. Hardly
> >impressive, to say the least....
> >
> Your opinions aren't worth a lot either...

But then, I tend to _not_ rely on my _opnions_, but those of authoritative
scholars! And I generally provide quotes and full citations to them when I
do. 

> >> >> Please point out cases of genocide in any group other than
> >> >> Jews in B.C. (ancient) times.  I'm waiting...
> >> >
> >> >Actually, I think it best that _you_ first document the historical
> >> >evidence for genocide by the Israelites. 
> >> >
> >> The book of Joshua seems to be pretty conclusive.

The book of Joshua is a religious text not archeological/historical
evidence. You seem to accept or reject religious texts whenever it suits
your purposes, Mr. self-eater. Considering this, you are hardly
persuasive...

Not to mention that it is not conclusive that the inahbitants of the city
of Ai were a unique ethinic group. (Actually, considering the demographics
of Palestaine and Syria, it would be suprising if the inhabitants of Ai
_were_ a unique ethnic group!) 

> >And your the archeological/historical evidence that such a religious text
> >is true is, Mr. self-eater? BTW, Mr. self-eater, I find it rather
> >hypocritical of you that on one hand you claim, without reason, that the
> >book of Genesis is historically inaccurate while accepting  the book of
> >Joshua, again woithout reason, is historically accurate....
> >
> O' uncomprehending one, the Israelites obviously felt so proud of origins and
> tactics (mythological or not) that they recorded them in the way they did
> (obvious really).  

Which, of course, does not proves any relevance tof the
archeological/historical record. 

> Which, if you cannot already guess, they were proud of
> having genocidal ancestry.

You have yet to even substantiate, Mr. self-eater, that the Israelites
even committed _genocide_. Yet you claim to _know_ that the Israelites
were proud of having genocidal ancestry."

Such unsubstantiated beliefs as yours, Mr. self-eater, smack of
anti-Semtism. I can't say I'm suprised by them. 

[snip]

> >> >> You could read some modern (comprehensive) books of Sumeria, meathead.
> >> >
> >> >Again, feel free to cite them. What? You don't know of any off-hand?
Pity. 
> >> >
> >> They're freely available.
> >
> >In other words, you haven't the slightest clue? How odd for a "scholor" of
> >"Ancient Near Eastern civilisations!" 
> >
> Some things are kept in the forefront of my mind, other things are not.  There
> are the battles of Hammurapi and his father for example -- they were fond of
> damming the Euprates river to conquer cities.  There are the battles of the
> Sumerians and the Elamites, the Sumerians and the Guti and so forth.  Some are
> recorded in detail, some are only referred too.

Again, feel free to cite these texts, Mr. self-eater.

[snip]

> >> We are/were talking about ancient civilisations, not modern.
> >
> >I wasn't. Nor were you, as you are trying to white-wash Nazi genocide by
> >dragging the red herring of ancient Israelite "genocide" across the road. 
> >
> Er no, I entered this conversation early, Doc Tavish was using the ancient
> Israelites genocidal history from the onset, you on the other hand, keep 
> yourself close-minded totally.  You were the one using the red herring with
> Armenia, so please don't try anymore BS with me using red herrings, O' witless
> one.

I see. So it was Mr. McTavish who was white-washing Nazi genocide and
_you_ just jumped in to give a helping hand? Such anti-Semitic solidarity!


[snip]

> >> >> ...and her subject states being democracies, please read the history
> >> >> of the Peloponnesian war in respect to Athens, Mitylene (revolt) and 
> >> >> Samos.
> >> >
> >> >Why? _I_ was talking about Rome. 
> >> >
> >> And I was talking about both.
> >
> >Then, despite your protests, you _were_ asserting that Rome was a
> >democracy when,  in fact, it was not! Tsk tsk, Mr. self-eater! Such a
> >tangled web you attempt to weave... Then, despite your protests, you
> >_were_ asserting that Rome was a democracy when,  in fact, it was not! 
> >Tsk tsk, Mr. self-eater! Such a tangled web you attempt to weave... 
> >
> >Mr. self-eater, Don't you find it the _least_ bit embarrassing when you
> >blatantly contradict yourself like this? 
> >
> Er no.  Firstly, I would never state (ancient) Rome had a democracy...

But you just _did_, Mr. self-eater! See above! 

Methinks _thou_ art the witless one! 

> ...(though one contemporary historian said that Rome had all three major 
> Aristotle governments -- Monarchy, aristocracy, and democracy
simultaneously.)  
> Secondly, I said Athens had a democracy, and as a democracy she attacked
other 
> democracies and sometimes with extreme prejudice; refer the original decision 
> on Mitylene.

And I said I was responding to your claims about Rome having a democracy. Duh.

> >> >> As for Carthage; brutal as it was, this was still not an act of 
> >> >> genocide...
> >> >
> >> >Funny that there were no more Carthegians after Rome destroyed 
> >> >Carthage.... 
> >> >
> >> Rot.  There was a Carthaginian empire you know...
> >
> >And one could just as easily point out that there were Hittites,
> >Phillistines, Phoenicians, Arameans, etc as well the Isrealites in
> >Palestine and Syria. Can you tell me what ethnic group the people of the
> >city of Ai belonged to? If they were part of a larger ethnic group, the
> >desctruction of Ai and the killing of its inhabitants is no different that
> >the Roman destruction of Carthage. Or the Assyrian practice of killing the
> >inhabitants of a city to the last man, woman, and child. 
> >
> *sigh*
> 
> The practise of the Levantine area down to Egypt was that of city states.  

As it was in Ancient Greece, for example. As it was in the Italy prior to
the rise of the Roman Republic. (And after the fall of the Roman Empire.)
As it was in early Mesopotamia. As it was in early Egypt itself. 

> The Carthaginians on the other hand (even though they were Phoenicians) had a 
> completely different set up, they had an Empire.  

Alexander too had an empire.... As did Sargon and Ramses etc. 

> Their ethosity was somewhat larger than a city state, though I somehow doubt 
> you'd know or ever realise that.

What I think you are failing to realize, Mr. self-eater, is that simply
because a city-state is a seperate political/geographic entity does not
always mean that it  a seperate _ethnic_ entity. The city-states of
Ancient Greece, for exanmple, were ethnically the same: they were all
Greeks. The same can be said of the city-states of medievil Italy: they
were all Italians. You have yet to offer any credible evidence that the
inhabitants of Ai were in fact a seperate and unique ethnicity from the
rest of "Levantine." 

If they were not, your claims of Israelite "genocide" are groundless and
nothing more than mendacious drivel -and arguably anti-Semitic slander. 

I would suggest to you, Mr. self-eater,that quickly offer some credible
evidence (i.e. archeological) that indicates the the inhabitants of Ai
were indeed a unique ethnic peoples. 

> >And, of course, you could also provide the archeological/historical
> >evididence (comaprable to that of the existance and destruction of
> >Carthage) that the city of Ai actually existed, and that the Israelites
> >actually destroyed it, killing all of its inhabitants. 
> >
> >Will you? _Can_ you?
> >
> The Israelites were proud of their history

Irrelevent. The Irash, for example, are proud of theirs. The Irish also
have some _very_ interesting folk tales. 

> ...AND more importantly, what evidence do you have that Ai never existed?  

Mr. self-eater, I'm not claiming that Ai didn't exist -or that it did. I'm
asking _you_ to _prove_ Ai existed AND that its inhabitants were a unique
ethnic peoples. 

> This is in lieu of the extremely  important
> city we call Agade -- it has never ever been discovered, therefore according
> to your reasoning, it never existed.

I made no claims about Agade, Mr. self-eater, why do you make up fictions
that I did? 

> The city of Ai may have been discovered anyway; refer A. Hegev, _The 
> Archaeological Encyclopedia of the Holy Land_, Jerusalem, 1986, p. 20-22.

_May_ have, Mr. self-eater? That _also_ means it may _not_ have been discovered.

Lame.  

> >> >> for the other settlements of Carthaginians were not eradicated...
> >> >
> >> >What _other_ settlements? BY the Third Punic War Carthage was stripped of
> >> >all her territories and colonies except for Carthage itself. 
> >> >
> >> She once had an empire...
> >
> >See above regarding the city of Ai. 
> >
> Understand logic.

You do? I beg to differ. You have yet to evidence any such understanding,
Mr. self-eater. 

> >> >> ie., there was no active genocidal program, the city of Carthage 
> >> >>was _the_ enemy of Rome.
> >> >
> >> >Tell that to the Carthegians who were killed and enslaved. 
> >> >
> >> They were on the losing side, and therefore paid the penalty for trying to
> >> conquer Rome.
> >
> >So was Ai. (On the losing side.) What then makes Ai so special? (Other
> >than your obvious dislike of Jews.) 
> >
> According to the biblical narrative, the inhabitants of Ai made no aggressive
> move on the Israelites. 

Actually, the Israelites, according to Joshua 7:4 _first_ took "about
three thousand men" who in battle "fled before the men of Ai."  

Did the king if Ai sue for peace? No. So, evidently, the Israelites did
the same thing the Assyrians did when faced with similar circumstances:
They then attacked in full force and razed the city, killing all the
inhabitants. And why? To set an example and inspire fear lest, as is
written in Joshua 7:9, "the Canaanites and all the inhabitants of the land
shall hear [of it], and shall environ us round, and cut off our name from
the earth..." Which is also what the Assyrians did. 

> The Romans didn't try and extinguish the Carthaginians,

Really, Then why was Cathage razed, most her inhabitants killed, and the
rest taken as slaves by order of the Roman Senate? Sure sounds like Rome
wanted to put an end to the city-state of Carthage to me! 

> unlike the Israelites versus the Canaanites.

Given the above, Mr. self-eater, I suggest you re-think your claim.... 

[snip]

> >Mr. self-eater, are you saying the book of Joshua is non-existent? Or
> >rather, the acts depocted therein are non-existent? If so, _why_ are you
> >trying to "compare" non-existent Israelite genocide to the extremely well
> >documented fact of the Nazi genocide of European Jewry? 
> >
> Where the hell do you live?  Dreamland?

That's an non-answer, Mr. self-eater. Why do you avoid giving an answer?
Perhaps because you _are_ trying to "compare" non-existent Israelite
genocide to the extremely well documented fact of the Nazi genocide of
European Jewry and don't wish to admit to such a puerile ploy? 

[snip]

> If the Nazi genocide of European Jewry was so well documented then there would
> be a lot of primary source material proving the holocaust

Indeed there is, Mr. self-eater. Of course, when confronted with this
primary source material, deniers (yourself included) pull their heads into
the collective shell and deny the existance of said evidence. 

> ...and if that were so then you would not have replied with such a knee-jerk 
> reaction.  

A reaction to _what_, exactly, Mr. self-eater? Your attempts to white-wash
the Nazi genocide of European Jews? 

> Since you have admitted that the Nazi genocide of European Jewry is so well 
> documented, let us see your primary source citations for such an event.  

You mean that you, a "student" of Middle Eastern history, does not know
where to find literature on Holocaust studies? Amazing.

But to answer your puerile demand, Mr. self-eater, evidence for the
Holocaust can be found in the captured Nazi documents dealing with the
Einsatzgruppen, the concentration and extermination camps, and the
railroad transport sytstem that carried the victims to their deaths. (cf.
Hilberg, _The Destruction of European Jewry_). Evidence can also be found
in captured photos and diaries etc. (i.e. the "Kurt Franz Album;" cf.
Czech, _KL Auschwitz as seen by the SS_; _Auschwitz Album_). Evidence of
Nazi genocide can be found in the eyewitness testimonies of _both_ the
perpetrators and victims (cf. Lanzmann, _Shoah_). _Primary_ evidence of
Nazi genocide can be found, for example, in the physical evidence at the
extermination complexes of Treblinka and Auschwitz (cf. Arad, _Belzec,
Sobobor, Treblinka_; Pressac, _Auschwitz: technique and operation of the
gas chambers_);  as well as at the many mass graves where the
Einsatsgruppen buried their victims (cf. Berenbaum, _The World Must
Know_). 

A not insignificant portion of this veritable mountain of evidence can be
found on-line at: 

http://www.nizkor.org/

> We are waiting... and please, no more feeble dodging.

This from a "person" who has raised feeble (febrile!) dodging to an art form! 


"The truth is spread on the record before us, and all we have to do is
state the truth plainly. The German militarists joined forces with Hitler
and with him created the Third Reich; with him they deliberately made a
world in which might was all that mattered; with him him they plunged the
world into war, and spread terror and devestation over the continent of
Europe. They dealt a blow at all mankind; a blow so savage and foul that
the conscience of the world will reel for years to come. This was not war;
it was crime. This was not soldiering; it was savagery. We cannot make
history over again, but we can see that it is written true."  -Telford
Taylor

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Dec 28 09:13:54 PST 1996
Article: 89349 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.christnet,uk.misc,alt.religion.islam,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Kurt Stele/Brian Smith:  Idiot or Doofus?
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 04:31:55 -0700
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In article <32c45f82.308616743@news.micron.net>, kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

> No other religion has state law to specifically enforce their
> religious laws in which the religious group alone decides the
> definition of the law.

The fallacy (and folly) of Mr. Smith's assertion is readily exposed by the
following:

Article 12 of the Iranian constitution states:

"The official religion of Iran is Islam and the religious school, and this
principle will remain eternally immutable. Other Islamic schools are to be
accorded full respect, and their followers are free to act in accordance
with their own jurisprudence in performing their religious rites. These
schools enjoy official status in matters pertaining to religious
education, affairs of personal status (marriage, divorce, inheritance, and
wills) and related litigation in courts of law. In regions of the country
where Muslims following any one of these schools constitute the majority,
local regulations, within the bounds of the jurisdiction of local
councils, are to be in accordance with the respective school, without
infringing upon the rights of the followers of other schools."

Source: http://www.uni-wuerzburg.de/law/ir00001_.html#A012_


Article 107 of the Iranian constitution states:

"(1) After the demise of Imam Khumayni, the task of appointing the Leader*
shall be vested with the experts elected by the people. The experts will
review and consult among themselves concerning all the religious men
possessing the qualifications specified in Articles 5 and 109. In the
event they find one of them better versed in Islamic regulations or in
political and social issues, or possessing general popularity or special
prominence for any of the qualifications mentioned in Article 109, they
shall elect him as the Leader. Otherwise, in the absence of such a
superiority, they shall elect and declare one of them as the Leader. The
Leader thus elected by the Assembly of Experts shall assume all the powers
of the religious leader and all the responsibilities arising therefrom.
(2) The Leader is equal with the rest of the people of the country in the
eyes of law."

Source: http://www.uni-wuerzburg.de/law/ir00008_.html#A107


Article 156 of the Iranian constitution states:

"The judiciary is an independent power, the protector of the rights of the
individual and society, responsible for the implementation of justice, and
entrusted with the following duties:
1. investigating and passing judgement on grievances, violations of
rights, and complaints; the resolution of litigation; the settling of
disputes; and the taking of all necessary decisions and measures in
probate matters as the law may determine;
2. restoring public rights and promoting justice and legitimate freedoms;
3. supervising the proper enforcement of laws;
4. uncovering crimes; prosecuting, punishing, and chastising criminals;
and enacting the penalties and provisions of the Islamic penal code; and
5. taking suitable measures to prevent the occurrence of crime and to
reform criminals."

Source: http://www.uni-wuerzburg.de/law/ir00011_.html#A157_


Article 167 of the Iranian constitution states:

"The judge is bound to endeavor to judge each case on the basis of the
codified law. In case of the absence of any such law, he has to deliver
his judgement on the basis of authoritative Islamic sources and authentic
fatawa. He, on the pretext of the silence of or deficiency of law in the
matter, or its brevity or contradictory nature, cannot refrain from
admitting and examining cases and delivering his judgement."

Source: http://www.uni-wuerzburg.de/law/ir00011_.html#A157_

One can only wonder if Mr. Smith's keepers at the National Alliance
realize he has escaped his padded cell and is skulking about the digital
street corners haranguing passers-by with his insane diatribes? 

[Mr. Smith's senile Nazi drooling snipped]

For those interested in proof of Mr. Smith's (aka "Kurt Stele") rabid
anti-Semitism, pathological Nazi apologia, and that he possses an IQ of a
fence post (not to mention a sewer mouth) please visit:

http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/stele.kurt
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/smith.brian.r

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Dec 28 09:13:55 PST 1996
Article: 89383 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,soc.culture.usa,alt.conspiracy,alt.society.conservatism
Subject: Re: Paranoiac Rage ( was Re: Laughter is the Best Medicine )
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 09:25:45 -0700
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In article <32c4920e.321558022@news.micron.net>, kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

[Stuff about the convicted spy Pollard snipped]

> Pollard was Jew traitor.  Any other questions you want answered
> traitor-apologist?  
> 
> Kurt Stele

I'm _so_ glad you asked, Mr Smith! To whit:

Mr. Smith, as plain as day, in article <32b737e5.89408064@news.micron.net>
kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt Stele) you wrote: 

"The US was destroying German vessels on the high seas before 1939 to
provoke Hitler into a war."

You have subsequently repeated this very same lie on several occasions and
I have repeatedly challenged you to a little wager to substantiate it. Of
course you, having a yellow streak a mile wide running down your
backsides, have refused.  In fact, you have blatantly (and badly) lied
about making your (above) assertion while furiously backpeddaling away
>from  it.

Now, Mr. Smith, my question to you is:

I take it that your furious backpeddaling and lying about what you wrote
is your way of admitting that you _are_ indeed a cowardly little Nazi shit
who is running away from my challange to you? 

For those interested in proof of National Alliance member Brian Smith's
(aka "Kurt Stele") rabid anti-Semitism, pathological Nazi apologia,
puerile lies, and that he possses an IQ of a fence post (not to mention a
sewer mouth) please visit:

http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/stele.kurt
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/smith.brian.r

"In Jerusalem there is a memorial site for the six million Jews murdered
by the Nazi's during World War 2. It is called Yad Vashem and was raised
1953. An avenue called "The Avenue of the Righteous" runs through this
site. The wind whispers continuously through the several hundred trees
planted there. Each and every tree has been planted to honor a non-Jewish
person risking his or her life to save Jews from the Nazi murderers." 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Dec 28 09:13:56 PST 1996
Article: 89412 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Swiger's Holocaust Nonesense
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 12:38:29 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 385
Message-ID: 
References: <32c33489.450656808@news.dmsc.net> <5a1cue$1l6@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <32c49178.539997574@news.dmsc.net>
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In article <32c49178.539997574@news.dmsc.net>, cswiger@westco.net (Cliff
Swiger) wrote:

> Hi Ken:
> 
> >Hitler planned the systematic rape of Eastern Europe, and his
> >concept of "living space" played a large roll. Hitler was quite
> >clear about his plans; if you are interested in learning the truth
> >(Mr. Swiger's past performance suggests he is not, but there are,
> >after all, others here who are), you might wish to peruse
> >http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/imt/nca/nca-01/nca-01-09-aggression-01-07.html
> >as a good starting point.
> 
> Look, I agree that Hitler believed in the sword making way for the
> plow. 

Indeed. In Auschwitz, for example, Jews were murdered in the gas chambers,
their bodies incinerated, and their remains spread over the camp farms.
And the Einsatzgruppen, lest we forget, buried their victims in mass
graves. 

> And, I agree with him 100%. 

WHy am I not suprised? 

> So I don't pull any punches when it comes to my politics. 

No need. Mr. Swiger, you are doing a _marvelous_ job of beating yourself
sensless! 

> We could debate forever on what is "right" and
> what is "wrong". 

Er, no. You may choose to _rant_ forever about "what is 'right' and
> what is 'wrong,' but the civilized world answered such questions at
Nuremberg fifty years ago. 

> I could certainly draw parallels between what is
> going on in Israel with the Palestinians and what Hitler wrote about
> in Mein Kampf.  

I'm _sure_ you could, Mr. Swiger! But no means do they need to be taken
seriously. 

> It is a pointless argument based upon one's own
> definition of abstracts. 

Er, no. The immorality of the Nazi genocide of European Jewry is firmly
based in the ethics of the Enlightenment and the morality of
Judeo-Christian epistomology. 

> There is no reality in "right" and "wrong..." 

Are you a nilihist, Mr. Swiger or merely a situational ethicist? 

> but there is reality as to whether a "Hollywood style" Holocaust occurred. 

Really? Prove it. 

> The reality is: It did not. For what its worth, I recognized
> the Holocaust as a myth BEFORE becoming a National Socialist.

That sounds more like self-delusion, Mr. Swiger. Or given, your evident
reliance  on _your_ internal beliefs to the exclusion of external events,
solipsism. 

> You condemn Hitler, but Theodore Herzel certainly had no reservations
> about his plans now did he? Sorry for the parallel. 

A red herring, Mr. Swiger. (And a poor one at that.) Herzel didn't cause
the murder of 12 million innocents. Hitler did. 

> >Poor Mr. Swiger... he has yet to grasp the concepts involved, and
> >continues to hope that he can convince someone - anyone - that
> >modern single-body cremation statistics have anything at all to do
> >with Nazi-era crematoria statistics from places like
> >Auschwitz-Birkenau. The perception, Mr. Swiger, is that you are
> >trying a bit of tired old Nazi slight of hand.
> 
> Is that what it is? "......old Nazi slight of hand" or priciples of
> engineering? And, it has a lot to do with the ALLEGATIONS that the
> German National Socialists somehow defied the laws of physics. 

Er, no. I believe Mr. McVay was suggesting that _you_ were trying to defy
"laws of physics" (and Reason, not to mention the historical record!) by
trying to equate "modern single-body cremation statistics" with "Nazi-era
crematoria statistics from places like Auschwitz-Birkenau" (i.e. with the
continuous multi-body incinerations as practised in the Nazi concentration
camp system.)   

> People like you think if you torture enough individuals and get confessions,
> pile up reams of forged documents and have sentences handed down from
> kangaroo courts and star chambers you can change gravitational
> acceleration from 9.806 m/s2 to 25 m/s2. 

Mr. Siger, no where did Mr. McVay suggest such a thing. That is a peurile
(and fallacious) ad hominem on _your_ part. Nothing more. Tsk tsk, Mr.
Swiger! 

> It just doesn't work that way, Ken. Science catches up with you in the
end......And the end is near for your Holocaust fiction.

Indeed! Perhaps you should refrain from such "fictions" about the
Holocaust in the future, Mr. Swiger? Your (non-existant) credibility can
only go up if you were to so restrain your (wagging) tongue.... 

> >The history of the Holocaust, as Mr. Swiger knows (but would
> >rather you did not know) is certainly not based upon eyewitness
> >testimony. It is, however, based - like all historical events -
> >upon the convergeance of evidence. In this case, most of the
> >evidence has been provided by the Nazis themselves, as Mr. Swiger
> >most certainly knows, since he's been trying to peddle his
> >nonsense for some time now. German trials, Nazi documentation is
> >copious to the point where it is probably fair to say it may well
> >be another century before it has all been sifted by scholars
> >seeking more information.
> 
> I want you read what George A. McDonough had to say about the trials
> in post WW2 Germany. McDonough served BOTH as a prosecutor and a
> defense counsel.

And what trials, specifically, were these that Mr. McDonough took part in,
Mr. Swiger?  

> "...........Hearsay evidence was admitted indiscriminately and sworn
> statements of witnesses were admissible regardless of whether anybody
> knew the person who made the statement or the individual who took the
> statement. If a prosecutor considered a statement of a witness to be
> more damaging than the witness' oral testimony in court he would
> advise the witness to go back to his home, submit the statement as
> evidence, and any objection by defense counsel would be promptly
> overruled."

And the full citation to where  Mr. McDonough's statement can be found is,
Mr. Swiger? In what context did Mr.McDonough make the above statement?   

> Certainly this is out of line with Western jurisprudence. But, I'm not
> here to cry about the injustices doled out at the "trials." 

Really? Sure sounds like you are crying about alleged "injustices," Mr.
Swiger. Why else have you gone to such "effort" to dredge up an
_unattributed_ (and hence not easily verifed) stateement allegedly made
by  George A. McDonough? 

> Most everyone now knows they were a total farce and disgrace. 

And your evidence of this is, Mr. Swiger? Considering that, for example,
students in the U.S. are (and have been since the Nuremberg trials) taught
otherwise, I find your claim without merit. 

> You assert yourself with the statement that "most of the evidence has been
> provided by the Nazis themselves,...." Well, if judicium semper pro
> veritate accipitur applies in all instances, then the Puritains in
> early America PROVED that there were witches,..... and humans
> copulated with the Devil! 

Your assertion, Mr. Swiger, is of course fallacious. There is no
commonality, whether it be in the evidence or jurisprudence between, for
example, the Salam Witch Trials and the Nuremberg Trials. 

> Certainly so since the theocracy had plenty of testimony, witnesses and 
>  confessions. 

Mr. Swiger, you seem to have "forgotten" that the veritable mountain of
_docmentary_ evidence, for example, "provided" by the Nazis in relation to
their pogrom of genocide, was made _during_ the war. 

> My appeal is to common sense. Particularly with the Germans today 
> who have been lied to and abused  by Jewish Holocaust mythologists.
> Wahrheit Mact Frei! 

No, your's is an (unfounded) appeal authority, Mr. Swiger. Not to mention
an ad hominem appeal to emotion.

> >400,000 pages of captured Nazi documentation has recently come to
> >light in Hungary, for instance, which documents the deportation of
> >Hungarian Jewry... no eyewitness testimony needed, as the SS did a
> >fine job on their own of documenting their crimes.
> 
> A peurile attempt at euphemism. 

Er, no. A statement of fact, Mr. Swiger. A euphemism would be, for
example, to say: "The Nazis themselves provided veritable mountain of
_docmentary_ evidence to their crimes." 

The "peurile attempt[s]" (at Nazi apologia) are left to you, Mr. Swiger.

> How many times do we have to clobber this one into the ground, Ken? 

How many _more_ times are you willing to be "clobbered," Mr. Swiger? 

> The NSDAP had every intention of "exterminating" Jewry within the the Reich.

Indeed. Mr. Swiger, not only did the Nazi have every intention of
physically exterminating the Jews in Germany, but in _all_ of Europe as
well! They very nearly suceeded too. In some countries, Poland for
example, they _did_ for all purposes succeed. European Jewry, and its
culture, in Eastern Europe _was_ destroyed.  

> To do this it was necessary to deport Jews from German territory. 

Yes, to the Ostland. Which was Poland (where the Reinhard death camps and
Auschwitz were located) and Russia (where the Einsatzgruppen operated).
Interesting, is it not, Mr. Swiger that many of the Jews _east_ of Poland
were _also_ shipped to the Ostland (i.e. Poland), which was to the
_west_?  

It is also worth note in this regard, Mr. Swiger, that Hitler wrote:

"If the National Socialist movement really wants to be consecrated by
history with a great mission for our nation, it must be permeated by
knowledge and filled with pain at our true situation in this world; boldly
conscious of its goal, it must take up the struggle against the
ainlessness and incompetence which hithero guided out German nation in the
line of foreigh affairs. Then, without consideration of 'traditions' and
prejudices, it must find the courage to gather out people and their
strength for an advance along the road that will lead this people from its
present restricted living space to new land and soil, and hence also to
free it from the danger of vanishing from the earth or of serving others
as a slave nation.

"The National Socialist movement must strive to eliminate the
disproportion of our population and our area- viewing this latter as a
source of food as well as a basis for power politics -between our
historical past and the hopelesness of our present impotence...." (Hitler,
_Mein Kampf_ (translated by Ralph Manheim), pp.645-646.) 

Hitler continues:

"...In contrast to the conduct of the representatives of this period, we
must again profess the highest aim of all foreign policy, to wit: to bring
the soil into harmony with the population. Yes, from the past can we only
learn that, in setting an objective for our political activity, we must
proceed in two directions: Land and soil as the goal of our foreign
policy, and a new philosophically established, uniform foundation as the
aim of political activity at home." (Ibid. p.649.) 

And how much "land and soil" is Hitler talking about? Not the restoration
of the borders of 1914 Germany:

"The boundries of the year 1914 mean nothing at all for the German
future...." (Ibid. 651.) 

Not tomention that  Hitler was obviously willing to _take_ others' "land
and soil" by force:

"...Just as our ancestors did not recieve the soil on which we live today
as a gift from Heaven, but had to fight for it at the risk of lives, in
the future no folkish grace will win the soil for us and hence life for
our people, but only the might of a victorius sword." (Ibid. p.653.) 

But _where_ was this "land and soil" to be found? 

"...For it is not in colonial acquisitions that we must see the solution
of this problem, but exclusively in the acquisition of a territory for
settlement, which will enhance the area of the mother country, and hence
not only keep the new settlers in the most intimate community with the
land of their origin, but secure for the total area those advantages which
lie in its unified magnitude..." (Ibid. p.653.) 

Clearly, Hitler is talking about "aquiring" land adjacent to Germany. But
where? Again, according to Hilter:

"And so we National Socialist consciously draw a line beneath the foreign
policy tendancy of our pre-War period. We take up where we broke off six
hundred years ago. We stop the endless German movement to the south and
west, and turn our gaze toward the land in the east. At long last we break
off the colonial and commercial policy of the pre-War period and shift to
the soil policy of the future. 

"If we speak of soil in Europe today, we can primarily have in mind only
Russia and her vassal border states." (Ibid. p.654.) 

Bingo! Hitler has made it crystal clear that his _Lebensraum_ policy is
aimed at Russia (and Poland, et al.) and that that he will take those
lands by military aggression and conquest. 

Therefore, Mr. Swiger, your claim that "it was necessary to deport Jews
>from  German territory" is exposed for the (Nazi apologia) strawman it is.
If Hitler found it unnacceptable that Jews remained in German territory,
would it not be _equally_ unnacceptable that Jews remained in "aquired"
(i.e. conquered) German territory? Of _course_ it would! Did not Hitler
say that "the solution" of the land "problem" would be solved "exclusively
in the acquisition of a territory for settlement?" Settlement by the Volk
(i.e "Aryans")? 

Given the above, Mr. Swiger, why were the Jews of Europe shipped to
Poland? To the newly "aquired" German territory meant for _German_ (i.e
"Aryans") settlers? Where did all the Jews who were shipped to Poland (not
to mention the Polish Jews!) vanish to? 

> But this forced deportation did not occur until World Jewry declared war on 
> Germany.

And where was this country of "World Jewry" located, Mr. Swiger? When did
"World Jewry" "declare war" on Nazi Germany? What armies did "World Jewry"
threaten the Third Reich with? And how is the genocide of the European
Jews even remotely justified by this "World Jewry declaration of war"
stalking horse of yours?  

> Prior to this, International Zionists collaborated with Adolf Hitler
> to have the Jews relocate to Palestine. You know all about this but,
> for your own personal motives, you won't admit it. 

Indeed Zionists did "collaborate" with Germany (and with England) in
regard to the emmigration of German Jews to Palestine. Are you somehow
suggesting, Mr. Swiger, that this somehow mitigates the genocide of the
European Jews by the Nazis? 

> >Mr. Swiger is, of course, invited to discuss Pressac in
> >alt.revisionism, which is the newsgroup he prefers to avoid...
> >perhaps that is because Mr. Swiger knows that his brand of
> >"history" has been seen there often enough to hold little
> >challenge - or interest - for anyone with a mind that works.
> 
> Look Ken, you know full well that Pressac did a miserable disservice
> to your ilk. 

And what evidence do you have of this besides your own vapid assertions,
Mr. Swiger? 

> The guy has no grasp on mathematics or engineering.

Such as? 

> He tried to convince others just what mistakes Vrba and Wetzler made IN
> THIER OWN TESTIMONY! 

Which were? 

> The guy is a total moron. I sincerely believe he dipped into his own
pharmacutical stock....

Tsk tsk, Mr. Swiger, ad hominens do not an argument make....

> ...Nonetheless, if I want to discuss him, I'll do it wherever I choose if 
> there are others who are interested. 

Mr. Swiger, I am _extremely_ interested in discussing the merits of
Pressac's research into the tecnique and operation of the gas chambers at
Auschwitz! So please, feel free to start "discussing." 

> >Nazi account indeed!! How gullible are we to be, Mr. Swiger?
> 
> Fact is Ken, the "testimony" I posted is an extreme insult to the
> intelligence of most everyone. 

I'm afraid I missed this testimony, Mr. Swiger. However, considering your
obvious lack of treating the historical record in even a _remotely_
objective and honest manner, I don't hold high hopes as to said
testimony.... 

> Its horrendous that such a contorted
> fabling would actually be admitted in a court..........even a kangaroo
> court. What is absolutely sickening is that German military personnel
> were actually imprisoned or executed based upon such idiotic
> attestations. 

 

Really, Mr. Swiger, such _puerile_ ad hominems and appeals to emotion will
get you nowhere. I suggest you calm yourself and start using the
historical record, trather than your imagination, to base your conlusions
on. Else, people might get the impression that you are merely a (terrible)
Nazi apologist or something....

> Cliff Swiger
> Wahrheit Macht Frei

 "Today I will once more be a prophet:  If the international Jewish
financiers inside and outside Europe should again succeed in plunging
the nations into a world war, the result will be...the annhilation of
the Jewish race throughout Europe."

     - Adolf Hitler in his speech to the Reichstag; January 30, 1939.

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Dec 28 09:13:57 PST 1996
Article: 89445 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More Swiger Lies
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 13:18:22 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 94
Message-ID: 
References: <32c327c4.447387270@news.dmsc.net> <5a1bmq$15s@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <32c48d8f.538996292@news.dmsc.net>
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In article <32c48d8f.538996292@news.dmsc.net>, cswiger@westco.net (Cliff
Swiger) wrote:

> Dear Mr. McVay:
> 
> >What "Jewish lie" has been "exposed," Mr. Swiger? As anyone
> >perusing your archived material here
> >(ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/swiger.cliff.g) quickly
> >discovers, you have never been successful at defending _your_ lies
> >with regard to the Holocaust, let alone establishing anyone elses.
> 
> Sounds as though this is merely your opinion, Mr. McVay.

And a well-grounded one too, Mr. Swiger!

> Actually, we who are now expounding the truth, surrounding the alleged 
> Holocaust have made tremendous gains. 

Such as? 

[snip]

> >Burning pits were used, Mr. Swiger - get used to it. After you
> >have done so, you may wish to explain how the time required to
> >cremate a single corpse in a modern furnace has any relevance to
> >the Holocaust. Take your time - we'll wait.
> 
> How asinine. I'm fully aware that burning pits were used to dispose of
> the deceased. 

Don't you find it the least bid odd, Mr. Swiger, that of the 438,000 some
Hungarian Jews sent to Auschwizt during Aktion Ho"ss, that approximately
394,000 _died_? In about _three_ months? Mr. Swiger, typhus does _not_
have a mortality rate of 90 percent! Not even bubonic plague does! (In
fact, the only disease known so far that comes near or reaches 90 percent
mortality is Ebola and other hemorragic fevers. All are
tropical/sub-tropical diseases that were not found in Europe  circa
1940-45.) 

> Something had to be done to curb the typhus epidemics
> that were rampant at that time. 

Mr. Swiger, there was no typhus epidemic "rampant" at Birkenau in the
summer of 1944. That happened in the summer of 1942 and was controlled by
a disifestation program using massive amounts (probably several tons) of
Zyklon B. 

> Ken, did the allies not also use outdoor buring installations after their 
> murderous attack on Dresden?

Er, Mr. Swiger, the _Germans_ burned the corpses of the dead in pyres at
Dresden.... 

> And for what reason? 

Not because they died of typhus! 

> You simply cannot leave decomposing bodies laying around for sanitary
reasons. 

Which has nothing to do with typhus, Mr. Swiger. 

> The particular spin involved here, by Holocaust mythologists, is that the 
> instances of the Germans buring corpses in pits at the labor camps was some
> sort of a program of genocide. 

Mr. Swiger, I think your "spin" on the incineration pits, considering your
numerous errors and fallacious "reasoning" above, has left you rather
dizzy.... Perhaps you should take a breather and compose your thoughts
before you embarrass yourself further? 

> Its easy for Holocaust theorists to take a situation like
> this and mold it into a legendary event. 

More apropos to your above comedy of errors, Mr. Swiger, is that it is all
too easy for a fool to spout foolishness and call it fact. 

> Cliff Swiger
> Wahrheit Macht Frei

"It is better to be silent, and be thought a fool, than to speak and
remove all doubt."
              -Silvan Engel


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Dec 28 19:05:59 PST 1996
Article: 89620 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: False witness/ethnic ethic/rock ...hard place/desperation
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 03:07:18 -0700
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In article <32c99ed5.4839386@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
wrote:

[snip]

> What does the Simon Wiesenthal Center have to say about
> concentration/extermination camps being located inside Germany itself?
> 
> Here is exactly what it has to say, in question 12 of its
> "Responses to Revisionist Arguments". 
> 
> "12. Didn't Simon Wiesenthal himself state that there were no
> extermination camps in Germany? 
> 
> The Nazis classified their many hundreds of concentration camps
> on their basis of their primary function. In a very real sense, all
> were death camps because the death of the inmates, whether through
> overwork, starvation/disease, or outright murder, was ultimately
> expected.
> 
> Those sites, however, which functioned as extermination centers
> (Auschwitz-Birkenau, Treblinka, Majdanek, Sobibor, Belzec, and
> Chelmno), were specially equipped for the gassing of hundreds of
> thousands of victims each (millions altogether). All of these camps
> were located in Poland, and for good reason. Poland had far more Jews
> than Germany and the rest of Western Europe combined. The Nazis also
> felt that the relative remoteness of Poland's rural areas would also
> minimize reports of mass murder taking place there."

For the rigii unimpaired, the URL for the above is:

http://www.wiesenthal.com/resource/revision.htm#12

> So we can see the simple 'yes' or 'no' answer to this question
> is, 'Yes' Simon Wiesenthal did "state" (admit) there were no
> extermination camps in Germany.

As is typical with many complex issues, the "answer" is usually something
more than a "simple 'yes' or 'no'." A case in point is whether or not
Upper Silesia, and hence Auschwitz, was a part of Germany or not. 

According to the _Enyclopedia of the Holocaust_ (p.107) Auscwhitz was the
"largest Nazi concentration and externimation camp, located 37 miles (60
km) west of Krakow."  The map on page 108 shows that Upper Silesia was a
seperate administrative division from the Generalgouvernement.
Additionally, in _The Destruction of the European Jews_, the map on page
129 of the German occupation of Poland shows that Kracow is but fifteen
miles from the western border of the Generalgouvernment. This would put
Auschwitz _inside_ the "incorporated area" of Poland that was annexed by
Germany. 

What this implies is that Upper Silesia was actually considered by the
Nazis to be a part of Germany. According to Hilberg:

"In discussing the administration of occupied Poland, we have to
distinguish between the authorities in the territories inorporated into
rhe Reich and the so-called 'General Government' (_Generalgouvernement).
The administrative structure in the incorporated territories was not
distuinguishable from the territorial organization in Germany itself. Two
new _Reichsgaue_ had been carved out of the conquered incorporated
territory: Danzig-West Prussia and the Warthland....

"In addition to the two _Reichsgaue_ the incorporated territory contained
two smaller units which were parceled out to neighboring Reich provences.
The provence of East Prussia annexed some territory in this process, and
Silesia became Great Silesia. However, Great Silesia, was a cumbersome
administrative unit, and thus in January 1942, the _Grossgau_ was divided
into two _Gaue_: Lower Silesia (seat Breslau), which contained only old
German territory and was governed by Oberpra"sident and Gauleiter Karl
Hanke, and Uopper Silesia (seat Katowice), which consisted mostly of
incorprated territory and which was placed under Oberpra"sident and
Gauleiter Fritz Bracht. (Hilberg, _Destruction_, pp.130-131.) 

See also:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/auschwitz-in-germany


> Now we are in a better position to consider the following.

Actually, no. As seen above, the Nazis, as evident by the adminstrative
organization of the "incorprated areas," which was the same as in the
Reich, considered Upper Silesia a part of Germany. It is simply that many
historians and others, who in the context of the post-war Polish borders,
have simplified the issue of Upper Silesia being part of Poland as they
were part of "incorporated territories" annexed by force _from_ Poland in
1939. Often ignored is that the Nazis at the time considered Upper Silisia
as part of the Reich and governed it as such. 

> Some former inmates and a few historians have claimed that Jews were
> put to death in gas chambers at Bergen-Belsen. 

Specific cites please. Such vague and unsupported claims from a proven
liar are immediately suspect. 

>  For example, an "authoritative" work published shortly after the end of the 
> war, A History of World War II, informed readers: "In Belsen, [Commandant]
> Kramer kept an orchestra to play him Viennese music while he watched
> children torn from their mothers to be burned alive. Gas chambers
> disposed of thousands of persons daily."

Again, specific cites please. Such vague and unsupported claims from a
proven liar are immediately suspect. 

> In 'Jews, God and History', Jewish historian Max Dimont wrote of
> gassings at Bergen-Belsen. (note 32) A semi-official work published in
> Poland in 1981 claimed that women and babies were "put to death in gas
> chambers" at Belsen. 

Could the Moran(tm) please clarify (i.e. ask his handler Mr. Kennady
about) the above? The Moran(tm) combines two seperate claims (i.e Dimont
and an unamed "semi-official work") with neither being properly cited. On
what page did Dimont write that homicide gassings took place at
Bergen-Belsen? How many were killed? What is the title of this
"semi-official work" published in Poland? Who is its author? When was it
published? On what page did it say that that "women and babies" were 'put
to death in gas chambers" at Bergen-Belsen? How many were killed? 

Again, specific cites are required. Such claims from a proven liar are
immediately suspect. 

> In 1945 the Associated Press news agency reported: 
> 
> In Lueneburg, Germany, a Jewish physician, testifying at the
> trial of 45 men and women for war crimes at the Belsen and Oswiecim
> [Auschwitz] concentration camps, said that 80,000 Jews, representing
> the entire ghetto of Lodz, Poland, had been gassed or burned to death
> in one night at the Belsen camp. 

Again, a specific cite please. Such claims from a proven liar are
immediately suspect. 

> Five decades after the camp's liberation, British army Captain Robert
> Daniell recalled seeing "the gas chambers" there.
> 
> Years after the war, Robert Spitz, a Hungarian Jew, remembered taking
> a shower at Belsen in February 1945: "... It was delightful. What I
> didn't know then was that there were other showers in the same
> building where gas came out instead of water." 

Again, a specific cite please. Such claims from a proven liar are
immediately suspect. 

> Another former inmate, Moshe Peer, recalled a miraculous escape from
> death as an eleven-year-old in the camp. In a 1993 interview with a
> Canadian newspaper, the French-born Peer claimed that he "was sent to
> the [Belsen] camp gas chamber at least six times." The newspaper
> account went on to relate: "Each time he survived, watching
> with horror as many of the women and children gassed with him
> collapsed and died. To this day, Peer doesn't know how he was able to
> survive." In an effort to explain the miracle, Peer mused: "Maybe
> children resist better, I don't know." (Although Peer claimed that
> "Bergen-Belsen was worse than Auschwitz," he acknowledged that he and
> his younger brother and sister, who were deported to the camp in
> 1944, all somehow survived internment there. 

Again, a specific cite please. Such claims from a proven liar are
immediately suspect. 

> Holding to the one time extensively proposed claim of
> extermination camps in Germany was just too difficult to maintain and
> it had to be dropped from the center of the Holocaust story down to
> it's current standing.

On the contrary! For those interested in understanding such details as
above it reveals that the Nazis themselves considered Upper Silesia a part
of the German Reich. That some (i.e the Moran(tm)) choose to not delve
into such details for a more complete understanding does not invalidate
said details that indicate that Auschwitz _was_, in fact, according to the
Nazis, located in Germany circa 1939-1945. 

>         The way the Simon Wiesenthal Center puts it to introduce it's
> "Answers to Revisionist Arguments" No.12, "Didn't Simon Wiesenthal
> himself state that there were no extermination camps in Germany?"
> could be 'Didn't Simon Wiesenthal himself have to admit ...'.

Given the above it is becomes arguable that Mr. Wiesenthal was simplifying
the issue by addressing the question based on post-WWII national
boundries. 

> Whatever it was that brought Simon Wiesenthal to acknowledge
> there were no extermination camps in Germany we don't know. 

How odd. Did not Mr. Wiesenthal clearly state that: 

"...All of these camps were located in Poland, and for good reason. Poland
had far  more Jews than Germany and the rest of Western Europe combined.
The Nazis also felt that the relative remoteness of Poland's rural areas
would also minimize reports of mass murder taking place there."

Moran(tm) to say, in light of Mr. Wiesenthal _reasons_, that "we don't
know" what "brought Simon Wiesenthal to acknowledge there were no
extermination camps in Germany" is simply yet another example of the
Moran's(tm) disingenousness- and his on-going mendacious pogrom of
maligning of Mr. Wiesenthal at every oppurtunity he can. Such behavior by
the Moran(tm) is hardly new, of course. The Moran(tm) passes up no
opportunity to malign Jews and others who defend the Holocaust from
mendacious attacks by deniers, as well as spew his anti-Semitic drivel
without provocation.      

> But it is obvious that when we put the testimonies to the Wiesenthal 
> admission we have a 'between the rock and the hard spot' situation.

The only person "between the rock and the hard spot" here, given the
above, is the Moran(tm) as he is once more exposed for the shallow-minded
and anti-Semitic denier he is. 

> Even though he and others may have a different way of putting it,
> the eyewitnesses were real authentic 'false witnesses', a conclusion
> round about attested to by Simon Wiesenthal himself.

Really? Perhaos, given the above, the Moran(tm) would care to explain this
leap of denier faith? 

>         The cruel, cruel twists of the ongoing Holocaust saga. 

Indeed. Too bad the Moran(tm) appears incabale, by the simple reason his
anti-semitism blinds him, of realizing the cruel twists were caused by the
Nazis with their "Final Solution to the Jewish Question." 

> No wonder Simon Wiesenthal and Company are so desperate to incite
> legislation to have Holocaust doubting made a crime.

Rather, it is no wonder that anti-Semitites, Nazi apologists, and
Holocaust deniers put forward such lies and half-truths in lieu of the
turth of the historical record when denying the Holocaust. 


The Moran (tm)  is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semite engaged in
blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi apologia, and Holocaust denial.
The Moran (tm) generally conducted himself with such a complete lack of
intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in
taking the time to read and respond.  For detailed and documented evidence
of this, please refer to:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom

But what else should one expect from a lying anti-Semite who holds wacko
beliefs, is intellectually depraved, hasn't the slightest clue regarding
Supreme Court decisions, or what constitutes a dud at the  box-office? For
evidence of this please see:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/1996/what-moran-believes.9607
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies/hilberg-out-of-context
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-menorah-faq
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-schindler-faq



Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Dec 29 02:12:37 PST 1996
Article: 89671 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!wesley.videotron.net!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-lond.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-paris.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Yoo hoo, Mike Stein:   Care to add up the Holocaust 6 Million Please?
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 04:35:27 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 34
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References: <32c45b7f.307589000@news.micron.net>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32c45b7f.307589000@news.micron.net>, kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

> Mike Stein has repeatedly claimed that despite a 3 million person
> reduction in the Auschwitz number of Jews allegedly killed, this does
> not affect the total number of the sacred 6 million.
> 
> Mr. Stein, please add up the figures.  Show the world how the 6
> million number is true.  I'm waiting...

Perhaps Mr. Smith would first care to demonstrate some basic arithmetic
ability by correctly counting his fingers and toes?  No? I thought not....

One can only wonder if Mr. Smith's keepers at the National Alliance
realize he has escaped his padded cell and is skulking about the digital
street corners haranguing passers-by with his insane diatribes? 

For those interested in proof of Mr. Smith's (aka "Kurt Stele") rabid
anti-Semitism, pathological Nazi apologia, and that he possses an IQ of a
fence post (not to mention a sewer mouth) please visit:

http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/stele.kurt
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/smith.brian.r


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Dec 29 03:00:22 PST 1996
Article: 89722 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!wesley.videotron.net!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-lond.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: STRANGE E-MAIL FROM DANNY KEREN
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 03:40:26 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 62
Message-ID: 
References: <32c939ee.8607931@news.demon.co.uk>  <32C1C607.1F92@phoenix.net>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32C1C607.1F92@phoenix.net>, tavish@phoenix.net wrote:

> Joel Rosenberg wrote:
> > 
> > In article <32c939ee.8607931@news.demon.co.uk>
redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland) writes:
> > 
> > >DO you not know Rule Brittania? Britain Never, Never, shall be slaves.
> > >Last invasion,  Anno Domini 1066.
> > 
> > ... but had to get your sorry British butts bailed out of deep shit by
the US
> > twice within forty years.
> 
> And we in America keep bailing Israelites out of deep guano EVERY year
> at the tune of $5.5 billion! You sure are bigoted Rosenberg you are
> referring to many and not Fergus alone when you say "sorry British
> buttS." Are you a virulent anglo-phobe too?


Mr. McTavish, as usual, is in err.  The U.S., in spite of Mr. McTavish's
limp accusations and insults to the contrary, is not giving Israel $5.5
billion per year in foreign aid.

According to the FY'96 budget, the U.S. was to have spent approximately
$21 billion (1% of the budget) on International Affairs.* Of this $21
billion some $5.2 billion was earmarked for the _entire_ MIddle East: 

"Changes in the Middle East in the past two years also have been dramatic.
Our interest in peace and stability in that region has a long history, and
a significant part of our international affairs budget supports this
effort. Today, American diplomacy is key to continued progress in the
peace process and in shaping international responses to the growing need
for trade with, and investment in, the region.

"The budget maintains the long continuity of our support for the peace
process in the Middle East, requesting more than $5.2 billion to assist
countries participating in that process. These funds provide continued
strong economic and military support for Israel and Egypt and provide
increased military support for Jordan, which also will benefit from
additional debt relief proposed for 1995 funding. The funds also provide
economic assistance for Palestinians in the West Bank area and in Gaza. At
the same time, we have demonstrated our resolve to fight terrorism and to
deter countries that could pose a threat to emerging regional stability.
We remain strongly committed to the defense of Kuwait and the Gulf states,
and to pre-venting the emergence of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq
and Iran. 

Source: , pp.116-117. 

* Cf. Ibid. Chart 9-1, p.117.


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Dec 29 07:33:35 PST 1996
Article: 89775 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!news.bconnex.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Shaw's THE DEVIL'S DISCIPLE
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 03:52:03 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
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Message-ID: 
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32c45f8f.308629831@news.micron.net>, kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

[snip]

> The evidence shows that, in fact, a very high percentage of the Jewish
> inmates at Auschwitz were not able to work, and were nevertheless not
> killed. For example, an internal German telex message dated Sept. 4,
> 1943, from the chief of the Labor Allocation department of the SS
> Economic and Administrative Main Office (WVHA), reported that of
> 25,000 Jewish inmates in Auschwitz, only 3,581 were able to work, and
> that all of the remaining Jewish inmates -- some 21,500, or about 86
> percent -- were unable to work. 
> 
> (Archives of the Jewish Historical Institute of Warsaw, German
> document No. 128, in: H.)

An interesting "interpretation" by Mr. Smith. According to Danuta Czech:
"The Commandant's Office recieves an order dated September 4, 1943, fronm
the Office D-II in the WVHA commanding Ho"ss to explain why only 3,581
Jewish prisoners have been used in the armaments industry and what the
other approximately 25,500 Jewish prisoners are doing." (Czech, _Auschwitz
Chronicles_, p.485.) 

Given the above it is of interest to note that:

As of August 6, 1943, according to the Monthly Labor Deployment List
(APMO, D-Aul-3a/370/5, pp.301,301a,327a), the Central Construction
Administration at Auschwitz employed 10,888 prisoners. (cf. Ibid. p.456.)

As of August 27, 1943, according to the Monthly Labor Deployment List
(APMO, D-Aul-3a/370/5, pp.321ff), a total of 5,822 prisoners were working
in the agriculture and animal breeding operations at Auschwitz. (cf. Ibid.
p.471.)

As of August 30, 1943, according to the Monthly Labor Deployment List
(APMO, D-Aul-3a/370/5, p.309a), a total of 5,541 prisoners were working in
the I.G. Farben plants. (cf. Ibid. p.474.)

As of August 30, 1943, according to the Monthly Labor Deployment List
(APMO, D-Aul-3a/370/5, p.313a), a total of 2,019 prisoners were working in
the Neu-Dachs auxiliary camp. (cf. Ibid.)

If one includes the 3,581 prisoners working in the armaments industry (cf.
Ibid. p.472), this would mean that, circa August-September 1943, some
27,851 prisoners of Auschwitz were known to be registered as working.
During the same period (August 1, 1943 to September 4, 1943) approximately
42,000 Jews were murdered in the gas chambers at Birkenau. (cf. Ibid.
pp.452-480.) 

Clearly the evidence indicates that Mr. Smith knows not what he babbles
about. One can only wonder if Mr. Smith's keepers at the National Alliance
realize he has escaped his padded cell and is skulking about the digital
street corners haranguing passers-by with his insane diatribes? 

For those interested in proof of National Alliance member Brian Smith's
(aka "Kurt Stele") rabid anti-Semitism, pathological Nazi apologia,
puerile lies, and that he possses an IQ of a fence post (not to mention a
sewer mouth) please visit:

http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/stele.kurt
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/smith.brian.r

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Dec 29 13:57:23 PST 1996
Article: 89852 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!news.mindlink.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Clearing the air about Posen
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 02:48:12 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 62
Message-ID: 
References: <596ukf$8cs@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <598i2q$b93@juliana.sprynet.com> <32c22612.3054291@news.spry.com>
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In article <32c22612.3054291@news.spry.com>, klewis@awinc.com (Ken Lewis) wrote:

> On 18 Dec 1996 10:46:50 GMT, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> >I fail to see your point.  And please do not refer to me as an
"associate" of Harold
> >Covington--I do not know the man.  And I did not compose the jingle;
and yes; I am
> >an objective observer.--rb
> 
> Birds of a feather ....
> 
> And how about this:
> 
> >Indeed, they are far from silenced. Right now they have been attacking
> >me unremittingly with spams from porno sites on the web.  They have also
> >somehow cut me off from posting through my ISP---and I have heard not a
> >word about it from my ISP, though I have sent email after email.  When I
> >attempt to post to alt revisionism, a message appears on my screen:  You
> >have no permission to talk!  If they are unusually dormant right
> >now--perhaps they are celebrating Hannukah--
> 
> Sorry, Mr. Bellinger, a "You have no permission to talk" message
> is the result of 1 of 3 things:
> 
> 1) An accidental or deliberately misconfigured news reader (such
> as when one attempts to forge their name);
> 
> 2) You are attempting to access the Sprynet NNTP server from
> outside their domain;
> 
> 3) A misconfigured router or portmaster at Sprynet.
> 
> You can hardly blame that on those 'wascally jews' or the folks
> at Nizkor unless you are holding them responsible for your own
> abysmal ignorance.

Of _course_ he can! Not that any such blame by Mr. Belling has the
slightest basis in _reality_, mind you! He's a anti-Semitic lying scumbag
Nazi apologist, after all!

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semtism, and outright lies,
please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Dec 29 23:00:12 PST 1996
Article: 89923 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Matt Giwer:  is he a felon?  I dunno.
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 09:30:51 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 54
Message-ID: 
References: <32c455c4.9096843@news.gte.net>  <32c491fb.321539228@news.micron.net>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32c491fb.321539228@news.micron.net>, kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

[snip]

> What a kike.  
> 
> Kike is the name.  Smear is the game.
> 
> Kurt Stele

Mr. Smith unwittingly admits (due to his obvious inability to form a
cogent thought) that his rabid Jew-bashing is nothing more than smear
tactics on his part. One can only wonder if Mr. Smith's keepers at the
National Alliance realize he has escaped his padded cell and is skulking
about the digital street corners haranguing passers-by with his insane
diatribes? 

> At the Nuremberg Tribunal, chief U.S. prosecutor Robert Jackson
> charged that the Germans invented" a device to instantaneously
> "vaporize" 20,000 Jews near Auschwitz "in such a way that there was no
> trace left of them." IMT blue series, Vol. 16, p. 529-530. (June 21,
> 1946).  No reputable historian now accepts this fanciful tale.

And only pathetic little Nazis like Mr. Smith keep repeating such lies.
The absolute moral and intellectual depravity of Mr. Smith and his Nazi
ilk in continuing to promulgate this is revealed at: 

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/j/jackson.robert/vaporizing-device-context

For those interested in proof of National Alliance member Brian Smith's
(aka "Kurt Stele") rabid anti-Semitism, pathological Nazi apologia,
puerile lies, and that he possses an IQ of a fence post (not to mention a
sewer mouth) please visit:

http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/stele.kurt
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/smith.brian.r

"In Jerusalem there is a memorial site for the six million Jews murdered
by the Nazi's during World War 2. It is called Yad Vashem and was raised
1953. An avenue called "The Avenue of the Righteous" runs through this
site. The wind whispers continuously through the several hundred trees
planted there. Each and every tree has been planted to honor a non-Jewish
person risking his or her life to save Jews from the Nazi murderers." 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Dec 31 09:10:23 PST 1996
Article: 90057 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!tribune.usask.ca!canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!news.nstn.ca!coranto.ucs.mun.ca!news.unb.ca!torn!howland.erols.net!usc!newshub.csu.net!newshub.sdsu.edu!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: There was no decision
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 23:01:46 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 27
Message-ID: 
References:  <6k0noOev1eb4065yn@login.dknet.dk>    
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi143.rbi.com
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:90057 soc.culture.german:93251

In article , olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole
Kreiberg) wrote:

> In article , Daniel Keren wrote:
> >
> >And now, you'll ask, if there was a decision to kill all Jews,
> >why did some survive? The answer to that one is simple: the
> >Nazis didn't have enough time to kill all of them.
> >
> >
> Or there was simply no decision to kill them in the first place.

Er, no. By the simple fact that millions of Jews _were_ killed with
premeditation, would evidence that a decision to kill them _was_ made. 

Obviously, the Nazi sympathizer and apologist Mr. Kreiberg's thinking is a
bit muddled due to all the holiday "cheer" he has partaken in....

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Dec 31 09:10:24 PST 1996
Article: 90072 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!pumpkin.pangea.ca!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Blackmore vs. Blackmore
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 09:33:38 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 67
Message-ID: 
References: <59i4k0$nmu$1@gruvel.une.edu.au> <59mru0$33r@juliana.sprynet.com>  <32c48b99.319904811@news.micron.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi145.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32c48b99.319904811@news.micron.net>, kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

> On 24 Dec 1996 13:58:47 -0500, karlpov@explorer2.clark.net (Charles
> Power) wrote:
> 
> >rblackmore@juno.com writes:
> >
> >>  Mr. Power writes:
> >
> >No, I didn't. You are having serious problems figuring out who
> >said what. I may have been involved in the thread, but I did not
> >write the words to which you were replying. Do try to figure out
> >to whose mail you are replying.
> >
> >And yes, you are an asshole.
> 
> Tsk tsk.  Poor Chuckie-cheese.  Becoming unglued along with his
> favorite Holocaust.  
> 
> Kurt Stele

Speaking of those who are unglued over the Holocaust, one can only wonder
if Mr. Smith's keepers at the National Alliance realize he has escaped his
padded cell and is skulking about the digital street corners haranguing
passers-by with his insane diatribes? 

> At the Nuremberg Tribunal, chief U.S. prosecutor Robert Jackson
> charged that the Germans invented" a device to instantaneously
> "vaporize" 20,000 Jews near Auschwitz "in such a way that there was no
> trace left of them." IMT blue series, Vol. 16, p. 529-530. (June 21,
> 1946).  No reputable historian now accepts this fanciful tale.

And only pathetic little Nazis like Mr. Smith keep repeating such lies.
The absolute moral and intellectual depravity of Mr. Smith and his Nazi
ilk in continuing to promulgate this is revealed at: 

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/j/jackson.robert/vaporizing-device-context

For those interested in proof of National Alliance member Brian Smith's
(aka "Kurt Stele") rabid anti-Semitism, pathological Nazi apologia,
puerile lies, and that he possses an IQ of a fence post (not to mention a
sewer mouth) please visit:

http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/stele.kurt
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/smith.brian.r

"The truth is spread on the record before us, and all we have to do is
state the truth plainly. The German militarists joined forces with Hitler
and with him created the Third Reich; with him they deliberately made a
world in which might was all that mattered; with him him they plunged the
world into war, and spread terror and devestation over the continent of
Europe. They dealt a blow at all mankind; a blow so savage and foul that
the conscience of the world will reel for years to come. This was not war;
it was crime. This was not soldiering; it was savagery. We cannot make
history over again, but we can see that it is written true."  -Telford
Taylor

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Dec 31 09:10:25 PST 1996
Article: 90103 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!news-out.internetmci.com!metro.atlanta.com!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!swrinde!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is and what ain't - II
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 03:48:43 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 92
Message-ID: 
References: <32eaf514.4538397@199.0.216.204>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32eaf514.4538397@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
wrote:

> Jean Claude Pressac is a cited authority on the workings of the
> Holocaust specializing in going over Soviet held German corporate
> records for orders of equipment to Auschwitz. His book on what he
> found, which is said to have taken ten years, is totally based on
> nothing more than piecing together letters between the camp officials
> and corporate repentatives, and shipping manifestos.

And the contruction plans of the Kremas and other camp structures,
engineering drawings of the various incineration furnaces, photos taken at
Auschwitz, and eyewitness testimonies etc.

IN other words, a bit more than _just_ "letters between the camp officials
and corporate repentatives, and shipping manifestos."

> He also presents a number of plans that are said to be
> crematoriums, with front, back, end perspectives and elevations, along
> with ground plans. 

Quite so. Said "plans" were the contruction drawings used to for the
Kremas by the Nazis in building them.

> The "crematorium" in Holocaust vernacular literally means everything for the 
> process of mass extermination, from gassing to cremation.

IN the specific case of Kremas II, III, and IV, yes. This was simply due
to the fact that the "process of mass extermination, from gassing to
cremation," at Kremas II, III, and IV was carried out completely within
Kremas II, III, and IV. In the case of Krema V incineration pits augmented
the incineration furnaces of Krema V. And in the case of the gassing
bunkers 1 and 2, the incinerations took place in incineration pits. 
  
>  One should expect that while Pressac was spending his ten years
> in pouring over these records that he should have come across paper
> work and plans for other camps, such as Treblinka, Sobibor, Chelmno
> and Majdanek.

Given that Pressac's focus of attention was the gas chambers of Auschwitz,
and that his research primarily took place at the Auschwitz-Birkenau State
Museum in Poland (which is an archive for documentation concerning
Auschwitz), it would be somewhat suprising if Pressac were to have ran
across much detailed information regarding these other extermination
camps.

> All we can assume right now by the absence of what should be, is
> that either Pressac found nothing or found something he chose not to
> use.    

Rather, considering Pressac's thesis and that his research primarily took
place at the Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum, it is hardly suprising that
he specifically focused on Auschwitz. After all, his seminal work on the
gas chambers of Auschwitz _was_, after all, entitled _Auschwitz: Technique
and operation of the gas chambers_ and NOT _Treblinka, Sobibor, Chelmno
and Majdanek: Technique and operation of the gas chambers_!

If the Moran wishes for detailed information on the Reinhard death camps I
would direct his to Arad's excellent book: _Belzec, Sobibor, and
Treblinka: The Operation Reinhard Death Camps_. 


The Moran (tm)  is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semite engaged in
blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi apologia, and Holocaust denial.
The Moran (tm) generally conducted himself with such a complete lack of
intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in
taking the time to read and respond.  For detailed and documented evidence
of this, please refer to:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom

But what else should one expect from a lying anti-Semite who holds wacko
beliefs, is intellectually depraved, hasn't the slightest clue regarding
Supreme Court decisions, or what constitutes a dud at the  box-office? For
evidence of this please see:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/1996/what-moran-believes.9607
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies/hilberg-out-of-context
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-menorah-faq
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-schindler-faq


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Dec 31 09:10:26 PST 1996
Article: 90157 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.bc.net!nntp.portal.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc02.blue.aol.com!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,soc.culture.usa,alt.conspiracy,alt.society.conservatism
Subject: Re: Paranoiac Rage ( was Re: Laughter is the Best Medicine )
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 10:25:49 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 50
Message-ID: 
References: <199612100622.WAA28462@mailmasher.com> <58j86v$jrb@Networking.Stanford.EDU> <58q2qs$l9b$1@gryphon.phoenix.net>  <58rrgk$jo0$6@gryphon.phoenix.net>  <32B70B4B.4  <32BE4F9F.7119@cais.com> <59ounp$278@explorer2.clark.net> <32C29421.4BB7@cais.com> <59v8vh$g76@explorer2.clark.net> <32C3CB28.1E6A@cais.com> <5a1ldk$fds@explorer2.clark.net> <32c4920e.321558022@news.micron.net>  <32c4b069.32301831@news.gte.net> <32c60474.416394451@news.micron.net>
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In article <32c60474.416394451@news.micron.net>, kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

[snip]

> I do hope Von Alstink continues to confirm further how the U.S. sought
> war with Germany before 1940.

Mr. Smith, please point out where, exactly, I made any such
"confirmation." I daresay you cannot, as I did not. But please, do attempt
to point it out! Go ahead, make my day! 

However, lest you try and squirm out of the bind your sewer mouth put you in:

Mr. Smith, as plain as day, in article <32b737e5.89408064@news.micron.net>
kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt Stele) you wrote

"The US was destroying German vessels on the high seas before 1939 to
provoke Hitler into a war."

You have subsequently repeated this very same lie on several occasions and
I have repeatedly challenged you to a little wager to substantiate it. Of
course you, having a yellow streak a mile wide running down your
backsides, have refused.  In fact, you have blatantly (and badly) lied
about making your (above) assertion while furiously backpeddaling away
>from  it.

Now, Mr. Smith, my question to you is:

I take it that your furious backpeddaling and lying about what you wrote
is your way of admitting that you _are_ indeed a cowardly little Nazi shit
who is running away from my challange to you? 

For those interested in proof of National Alliance member Brian Smith's
(aka "Kurt Stele") rabid anti-Semitism, pathological Nazi apologia,
puerile lies, and that he possses an IQ of a fence post (not to mention a
sewer mouth) please visit:

http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/stele.kurt
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/s/smith.brian.r

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Dec 31 09:10:26 PST 1996
Article: 90166 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Shhh! Don't mention it
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 08:40:47 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 51
Message-ID: 
References: <32e5f48b.4401250@199.0.216.204>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi143.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32e5f48b.4401250@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
wrote:

>         How many people would think that the main gas said to have been
> used for extermination, the gas that is at the center of the Auschwitz
> story, was, in Holocaust reality, pellets made for fumigation
> purposes.
> 
>         It's 'funny' that of all the talk about the Holocaust and
> Auschwitz, which appears in myriads in and on our medias, rarely are
> any details discussed.

Really? And where the myriad engineering details of, say, the Saturn V's
main engines discussed in detail by the "medias" [sic] after the Apollo
program was canceled? If not, why _weren't they by darn! What's with our
"medias' [sic] anyways?! It's a _conspiracy_. Yeah, that's it! A
_conspiracy_. By those wascally Jooos! 

Geez, really Moran(tm)! I'm begining to think you got rabbit "pellets" for
brains or something....

The Moran (tm)  is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semite engaged in
blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi apologia, and Holocaust denial.
The Moran (tm) generally conducted himself with such a complete lack of
intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in
taking the time to read and respond.  For detailed and documented evidence
of this, please refer to:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom

But what else should one expect from a lying anti-Semite who holds wacko
beliefs, is intellectually depraved, hasn't the slightest clue regarding
Supreme Court decisions, or what constitutes a dud at the  box-office? For
evidence of this please see:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/1996/what-moran-believes.9607
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies/hilberg-out-of-context
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-menorah-faq
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-schindler-faq


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Dec 31 09:10:27 PST 1996
Article: 90177 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Correcting Giwer's and Blackmore's scientific ignorance
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 10:14:31 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 60
Message-ID: 
References: <5a1ndc$eav@news.enter.net> <19961228150700.KAA11444@ladder01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi143.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <19961228150700.KAA11444@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
fafner13@aol.com (Fafner13) wrote:

>         blackmore then tries to quote another source which disagrees with 
> him:
>   
> >  FIELD WATER SUPPLIES
>   
> 
> >  METHODS OF PURIFICATION
> >  
> >  CHLORINATION---Chlorination is the method of choice and may be carried 
> out
> >  in the water sterilizing bag, in water carts, in small reservoirs, or
> by
> >  the mobile purification units operated by the Corps of Engineers.
>   
> >  End of Quotes
> 
>         The relevance is not shown.  Boiling water has the same effect.
> 
>         --YFE
> 
> 
> 
> Comment:  This is finally what yale Edeikin has to counter after he read
> the field manual published by the US Army.  Well, what else could you
> expect from a man who would have given water to dying patients which had
> corpses and turds floating in it.  River water would have been like Evian
> compared to that--and let's not forget that Yale informed the newsgroup
> that he would have no problem drinking water with a big old cheesy turd in
> it---so long as he boiled it first.

This from a anti-Semitic lying scumbag Nazi apologist who offered the
fetid strawman argument that:

"There were far less SS guards at belsen than there were prisoners.  Say
there was a sudden water disaster at Folsom...do you think the guards
would share theri water with the convicts?"

Right. :-/

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semtism, and outright lies,
please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Dec 31 09:10:28 PST 1996
Article: 90183 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!voskovec.radio.cz!news.cesnet.cz!01-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!Austria.EU.net!EU.net!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!newshub.sdsu.edu!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Very Lucky "Survivor"
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 10:37:40 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 54
Message-ID: 
References: <32c84268.1795663@199.0.216.204>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32c84268.1795663@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
wrote:

>                      Mother and Child Occasion
>                    L.A.Times, Dec.28, 1996
> 
> "Holocaust Survivor Gets
> Dual Bat Mitzvah With 
> Cantor Daughter"
> 
>         "Hilda Kalir grew up in Germany but managed to leave in 1939,
> ..."
> 
>         Doesn't take much to be a "survivor".
> 
>         The one thing we will notice in Holocaust accounting is that very
> few German Jews are mentioned as going to the gas chambers.

Indeed. Given that there were approximately "only" about 300,000 German
Jews, as compared to aproximately five _million_ non-German Jews, this can
hardly be considered a revelation. Especially as many German-Jews were
never sent to the extermination camps, but imprisoned in concentration
camps.... 

The Moran (tm)  is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semite engaged in
blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi apologia, and Holocaust denial.
The Moran (tm) generally conducted himself with such a complete lack of
intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in
taking the time to read and respond.  For detailed and documented evidence
of this, please refer to:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom

But what else should one expect from a lying anti-Semite who holds wacko
beliefs, is intellectually depraved, hasn't the slightest clue regarding
Supreme Court decisions, or what constitutes a dud at the  box-office? For
evidence of this please see:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/1996/what-moran-believes.9607
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies/hilberg-out-of-context
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-menorah-faq
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-schindler-faq


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Dec 31 09:10:28 PST 1996
Article: 90191 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!news-stkh.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp-oslo.UNINETT.no!nntp-trd.UNINETT.no!Oslo2.Norway.EU.net!Norway.EU.net!nntp.uio.no!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!sdd.hp.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz, Auschwitz, Auschwitz, Auschwitz, Auschwitz
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 12:07:45 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 188
Message-ID: 
References: <32e9f4f8.4509946@199.0.216.204>
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In article <32e9f4f8.4509946@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
wrote:

The follwowing is yet another expose' of how Holocaust deniers maliciously
distort the historical record in the attempt to cast doubt on the veracity
of the Holocaust. Here we hold up (at arm's length and with noseclip
firmly in place) another post by the Moran(tm) (who's perfidy- and
stupidity -is well known on alt-revisionism), like a bug on a pin, for
inspection:

> Auschwitz, Auschwitz, Auschwitz, Auschwitz, Auschwitz, Auschwitz
> 
>         To those who are new to alt.revisionism.
> Take note of how 99.99% of the story is focused on Auschwitz. At one
> time the Holocaust facts were that Auschwitz was the center for the
> extermination of 4 million people.... 

The Moran once more beats the (old) denier dead horse euphamistically
called the 
"The Four Million Variant" or the "The Four Million Gambit."

Please see: 

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/4-million-variant
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/4-million-variant-02
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/gambit.001

> Currently it is somewhere around 1 million. Even, according to one of 
> the Holocaust dependents most cited authorities, the numbers are more 
> like 600 thousand. Down, down, down go the numbers.

See above. 

See also: http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/victims

> Yet there are other camps said to have been the centers for the
> extermination of far greater numbers. Majdanek is said to have been a
> place where 1.5 million were exterminated. 

According to the _Historical Atlas of the Holocaust_ (pp.100-102) "more
than 360,000 people were killed at Majdanek. Most died from starvation,
exhaustion, disease, and the harsh regimen imposed at the camp. The
overwhlming majority of those killed in Majdanek's gas chambers were
Jews." 

The _Encyclopedia of the Holocaust_ (pp.938-939) states that:

"Close to 500,000 persons, from twenty-eight countries belonging to
fifty-four different nationalities, passed through Majdanek. Of these,
according to current estimates, some 360,000 perished. Sixty percent of
them dies as a result of conditions in the camp- starvation, exhaustion,
disease, and beatings -and 40 percent were put to death in gas chambers or
executed. Some of the prisoners were taken to the gas chambers on arrival;
in this sense Majdanek was a camp of immediate extermination." 

Thus, if one were to "do the numbers" _correctly_ (a very un-Moranic(tm)
endeavour, btw) this would imply, that approximately 144,000 people,
mostly Jews, were exterminated in the gas chambers at Majdanek. 

> ...Treblinka 2 million. 

This is patently untrue. Historians and Holocaust researchers have _never_
claimed that two million people were murdered at Treblinka! Arad, for
example, cites the _combined_ death toll for the Reinhard death camps of
Belzac, Sobibor, and Treblinka at 1.7 million killed. Furthermore, Arad
also gives an approximate death toll for Treblinka of about 736,000 Jews.
(cf. Arad, _Belzac, Sobibor, Treblinka_, pp.128, 379.) 

> In addition to this, both Treblinka and Majdanek are said to have
> been over run by the Soviets while they were still in operation and
> that a "Extraordinary Commission" was installed within a day of the
> capture to investigate any crimes whereas Auschwitz is said to have
> ceased exterminating people 5 months prior to being over run and that
> the Germans had initiated a demolition program to cover up the alleged
> exterminations.

In regards to Treblinka:

"Kurt Franz, Stangel's deputy, was appointed commander of Treblinka. He
was responsible for dismantling the camp, destroying the gas chambers, and
erasing all signs of the extermination camp. Franz had at his disposal
some SS men and a group of Ukranian guards. The physical work was carried
out by about 100 Jewish prisoners who remained there after the uprising.
The work was accomplished during September.October 1943. A few days after
the uprising at Sobibor, on October 20, thirty to fifty Jewish prisoners
>from  Treblinka were sent to Sobibor to carry out the dismantling work
there.

"In Treblinka about thirty Jewish prisoners remained , among them two
women, to finsidh the work there. They were kept during the night in two
closed freight cars on the railway spur. On November 17m the last
transport, carrying equipment from the camp, departed. At the end of
November, Kurt Franz recieved an order to demolish whatever yet remained
in Treblinka and to take his men to Sobibor. Before Franz and his men
left, the last Jewish prisoners were shot. Franz was in charge of the
execution. The Jews were taken in groups of five and shot by three SS men.
Before being shot, each group was forced to cremate the corpses of the
five who had been shot before them; the last group was burned by the
Ukranians. These thirty were the last victims of Treblinks.

"On the grounds of the formwr camp there were still sections of barbed
wire, some pits, heaps of sand, and all kinds of articles- traces of the
terrible tradgedy that occured there. An agricultural farm was built on
the site, and the bricks from the gas chamber were used for the farmhouse.
A Ukranian by the name of Strebel who had been a guard in Treblinka
brought his family and began farming the area. The deserted fialds of
Treblinka were plowed, lupin was sown, and pine woods were planted."
(Arad, _Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka_, p.373.) 

As of Decemebr 22, 1943, the Red Army had yet to even reach the pre-war
Russian/Polish border. (cf. Cooper, The German Army 1933-1945_, p.464.) 

In regards to Majdanek:

"The Germans hastily evacuated Majdanek as the Soviet army approached
Lublin in July 1944. They did not have time to dismantle the camp
entirely, although some of the remaining prisoners were transferred to
Auschwitz. The Soviet army liberated Lublin on July 24, 1944. Majdanek was
the first killing center liberated, and the only one captured virtually
intact. The Germans dismantled or partially destroyed the other killing
centers." (USHMM, _The Historical Atlas of the Holocaust_, p.102.)

> One would think that with the numbers for Treblinka and Majdanek
> each being 2 to 3 times that of Auschwitz and that they were over run
> while still in full operation and that Auschwitz had destroyed all the
> evidence, that the two former camps would be the center of focus to
> show that the Holocasut story is true.

Alas, one would think (vainly) that even the Moran(tm) would get his fatcs
straight by now. Neither the numbers murdered by the Nazis at Treblinka or
Majdanek were "2 to 3 times that of Auschwitz." The current estimates for
the death toll at Treblinka ranges between 700,000 and 850,000 and that of
Majdanek around 360,000. (cf. Ibid. p.92,102.) The death toll at
Auschwitz, in contrast, ranges between 1.1 million and 1.5 million killed.
(cf. Gutman, _Anatomy_, pp.71-72.) 

Neither, as illustrated above, were Treblinka _or_ Majdanek in "full
operation" while they "were over run" [sic] by the Soviets. In fact, the
Treblinka extermination camp was _erased_ long _before_ the Soviets
appeared; while Majdanek was hastily evacuated by the Germans (and
homicidal operations terninated) _before_ the Soviets liberated the camp. 

> Thus it appears the Holocaust dependents are presenting what we
> should expect is the lesser evidence instead of what we should expect
> would be the greater evidence.

Thus it appears (unsuprisingly) that the Moran(tm) once more trots out
discredited denier fabrications and distortions while mendaciously
ignoring the historical record. The Moran(tm) (predictably) sees only what
his bigotry and anti-Semitism allows him to see -instead of what any
_honest_ and _objective_ person would: Namely the plethora of evidence
that confirms the Nazi genocide of European Jewry. 

> Interesting.   

Rather, pathetically typical of an ignorant Holocaust denier such as the
Moran(tm).


The Moran (tm)  is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semite engaged in
blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi apologia, and Holocaust denial.
The Moran (tm) generally conducted himself with such a complete lack of
intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in
taking the time to read and respond.  For detailed and documented evidence
of this, please refer to:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom

But what else should one expect from a lying anti-Semite who holds wacko
beliefs, is intellectually depraved, hasn't the slightest clue regarding
Supreme Court decisions, or what constitutes a dud at the  box-office? For
evidence of this please see:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/1996/what-moran-believes.9607
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies/hilberg-out-of-context
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-menorah-faq
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-schindler-faq

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Dec 31 09:10:29 PST 1996
Article: 90195 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!news-stkh.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp-oslo.UNINETT.no!nntp-trd.UNINETT.no!nntp.uio.no!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!sdd.hp.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another Holocaust Peculiarity
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 12:19:24 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 74
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References: <32e8f4db.4481330@199.0.216.204>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi143.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32e8f4db.4481330@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
wrote:

>         Its interesting how the extermination camp Madjdanek is said to
> have been over run by the Soviets while it was still in operation and
> yet there is more focus, energy and Holocaust facts alleged for
> Auschwitz, which is said to have stopped it's exterminations 4 to 5
> months before the Soviets arrived, and had executed a plan to cover up
> the evidence.
>         
>         Adding to this interest would be the current Holocaust fact that
> 1,500,000 people are said to have died at Majdanek, 5, 6 or 7 hundred
> thousand more than Auschwitz.
> 
>         Review of the Holocaust dependents record for this focus on
> Auschwitz might reveal a ratio of a hundred to one, maybe a thousand
> to one, compared to any mention of Majdanek. Seems it should be the
> other way around.

It is. To wit:

"Close to 500,000 persons, from twenty-eight countries belonging to
fifty-four different nationalities, passed through Majdanek. Of these,
according to current estimates, some 360,000 perished. Sixty percent of
them dies as a result of conditions in the camp- starvation, exhaustion,
disease, and beatings -and 40 percent were put to death in gas chambers or
executed. Some of the prisoners were taken to the gas chambers on arrival;
in this sense Majdanek was a camp of immediate extermination." (Gutman,
_Encyclopedia of the Holocaust_, pp.938-939.)

If one were to "do the numbers" _correctly_ (a very un-Moranic(tm)
endeavour, btw) this would imply, that approximately 144,000 people,
mostly Jews, were exterminated in the gas chambers at Majdanek. 

Thus, if one _correctly_ compared, for example, the numbers of those who
died at  Auschwitz (1.1 to 1.5 million [cf. Gutman, _Anatomy_, pp.71-72])
to those who died at Majdanek (360,000) one would see that aproximately
between three to four times as many people died at Auschwitz than at
Majdanek. 

>  Holocaust accounting defies the logical and probable.

Alas, no. It is merely the Moran's(tm) "accounting" that "defies the
logical and probable." 

The Moran (tm)  is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semite engaged in
blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi apologia, and Holocaust denial.
The Moran (tm) generally conducted himself with such a complete lack of
intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in
taking the time to read and respond.  For detailed and documented evidence
of this, please refer to:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom

But what else should one expect from a lying anti-Semite who holds wacko
beliefs, is intellectually depraved, hasn't the slightest clue regarding
Supreme Court decisions, or what constitutes a dud at the  box-office? For
evidence of this please see:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/1996/what-moran-believes.9607
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies/hilberg-out-of-context
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-menorah-faq
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-schindler-faq

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Dec 31 09:10:30 PST 1996
Article: 90196 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news.dra.com!news.exodus.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Neo/Paleo-Deholocaustolithification
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 17:25:20 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 40
Message-ID: 
References: <32cff22c.3794493@199.0.216.204>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi143.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32cff22c.3794493@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
wrote:

> Neo/Paleo-Deholocaustolithification: The result of comparing
> older Holocaust accounts that were once written in stone and since
> eroded away to newer accounts that are currently written in stone.

This from person who once claimed that "iron is an amphibole."

Go figure. 

The Moran (tm)  is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semite engaged in
blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi apologia, and Holocaust denial.
The Moran (tm) generally conducted himself with such a complete lack of
intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in
taking the time to read and respond.  For detailed and documented evidence
of this, please refer to:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom

But what else should one expect from a lying anti-Semite who holds wacko
beliefs, is intellectually depraved, hasn't the slightest clue regarding
Supreme Court decisions, or what constitutes a dud at the  box-office? For
evidence of this please see:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/1996/what-moran-believes.9607
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies/hilberg-out-of-context
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-menorah-faq
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-schindler-faq

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Dec 31 09:10:31 PST 1996
Article: 90212 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish math: 6 million minus 2.5 million= 6million, of course!
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 04:18:31 -0700
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In article <5a617e$job@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>    ibokor@metz.une.edu.au (ibokor) writes:
>   d.A. commented on the Auschwitz National Museum:
>   
>   
>   In fact, the abiding impression is that the Jewish victims are
>   down-played in this guide-book, as in the Museum at the time
>   of my visit.
>   
>   
>   "rblackmore" wrote:
>   
>   Perhaps those jewish "victims" were a figment of someones vivid
imagination.--rb
>   
>   
>     d.A. assures "rblackmore":
>   
>   No. Plenty of people attested to the fact that Auschwitz was the last
>   place on earth visited by some million or so Jews, including those
>   who had intimate knowledge of it before its remains became a museum:
>   Hoess, Eichmann,....
> >  
> 
> UH, huh.....Testimony from Hoess...a man who lied as a result of vicious
beatings, torture and threats to his family.  NOT CREDIBLE.

And what exactly, Mr. Belling, is not credible about Ho"ss's testimonies
and memoirs? What were these "vicious beatings, torture and threats to his
family," and when did they take place? 

> Eichmann:  kidnapped from his home, drugged and smuggled out of the 
> country...the Mossad had his address and  knew where his wife and 
> children lived......who knows what those thugs said and did to Eichmann
to get 
> his "co-operation".....to "talk".  NOT CREDIBLE....

And what, exactly, Mr. Belling, is not credible about Eichmann's
testimony? You imply that the Mossad threatened his wife and family if he
did not "co-operate." What evidence do you have of this, Mr. Belling? 

> ....The last group:  Survivors...so many lies and hysterical imaginings all 
> packed with inconsistencies and contradictions: 90% of them NOT CREDIBLE. 

Mr. Belling, please enumrate and substantiate that 90 percent of survivor
testimony was " many lies and hysterical imaginings all packed with
inconsistencies and contradictions."

> What I/WE want to see is absolute forensic evidence, just like in any other 
> murder cases.  

Who is "we," Mr. Belling? And please subtantiate your implication that
_all_ murder cases are supported by "absolute forensic evidence."

> I am not interested in your survivors tales and eyewitness testimony and 
> accusations galore.  I seek and expect proof.

No, Mr. Belling, you do not. You simply parrot the lies and malicious
innuendo of other Holocaust deniers in addition to your own peurile
fabrications. In fact, you seem to go to great pains and mental gymnastics
to rationalize your continuous _exlusion_ of any actual proof of Nazi mass
murder. 

> I know it is too much to ask.  It is so much easier simply to believe 
> lies.--rb

Indeed, Mr. Belling! You are a prime example of what intellectual laziness
and immorality in service of one's bogotry and hatred brings one to:
anti-Semitic lying scumbag Nazi apologia. 

> >  But sending Jews there to beome victims *was* the result of
> >  "someone's vivid imagination", namely that of the son of an
> >  Austrian customs official. Of course he did not initially
> >  have Auschwitz in mind as the location for such victimisation,
> >  but some people are flexible.
> 
> What on earth are you referring to?--rb

Not _what_, Mr. Belling, but _who_. That who, of course, was none other
than your draft-dodging and comrade-abandoning hero Adolf Hilter. 

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semtism, and outright lies,
please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Dec 31 09:10:31 PST 1996
Article: 90214 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Now Playing....Irma Grese
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 18:28:00 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
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In article <19961228221500.RAA21130@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
fafner13@aol.com (Fafner13) wrote:

> It really takes some chutzpah to lie when the complete testimony on this
> rumored gas chamber has been posted and referred to over and over again. 
> You sound like the people Hitler had to deal with in Vienna....I know you
> read Mein Kampf....remember the quote?:
> 
> "But a Jew could never be parted from his opinions.....The more I argued
> with them the more I came to know their dialectic.  First they counted on
> the stupidity of their adversary, and then, when there was no other way
> out, they themselves simply played stupid.  If all this didn't help, they
> pretended not to understand, or, if challenged, they changed the subject
> in a hurry, quoted platitudes, which, if you accepted them, they
> immediately related to entirely different matters, and then, if again
> attacked, gave ground and pretended not to know exactly what you were
> talking about.  Whenever you tried to attack one of theses apostles, your
> hand closed on a jelly-like slime which divided up and poured through your
> fingers, but in the next moment collected again.  But if you really struck
> one of these fellows so telling a blow that, observed by the audience, he
> couldn't help but agree, and if you believed that this had at least taken
> you at least one step forward, your amazement was great the next day.  The
> Jew had not the slightest recollection of the day before, he rattled off
> his same old nonsense as though nothing at all had happened, and, if
> indignantly challenged, affected amazement; he couldn't remember a thing,
> except that he had proven the correctness of his assertions the previous
> day."
> 
> Mein Kampf, p. 62.

Hitler on propaganda:

"The receptivity of the great masses is very limited, their intelligence
is small, but their power of forgetting is enourmous. IN consequence of
these facts, all effective propaganda must be limited to a very few points
and must harp on these slogans until the last member of the public
understands what you want him to understand by your slogan...." (Hitler,
_Mein Kampf_, p.180-181.) 

"The function of propaganda is, for example, not to wiegh and ponder the
rights of different people, but exclusively to emphasize the one right
which it has set out to argue for. Its task is not to make an objective
study of the truth, in so far as it favors the enemy, and then set it
before the masses with academic fairness; its task is to serve our own
right, always and unflinchingly." (Ibid. p.182.) 

"The purpose of propaganda is not to provide interesting distraction for
blase' young gentlemen, but to convinve, and what I mean is to convince
the masses. But the masses are slow-moving, and they always require a
certain time before they are ready even to notice a thing, and only after
the simplest ideas are repeated thousands of times will the masses finally
remember them." (Ibid. p. 185.) 

"Propaganda tries to forces a doctrine on the whole people; the
organization embraces within its scope only those who do not threaten on
psychological grounds to become a brake on the further dissemination of
the idea." (Ibid. p.582.) 

"Propaganda works on the general public from a standpoint of an idea and
makes them ripe for victory of this idea, while the organization achieves
victory by the persistant, organic , and militant union of those
supporters who seem willing and able to carry on the fight for victory."
(Ibid.) 

"The first task of propaganda is to win people for subsequent
organization; the first task of organization is to win men for thi
continuation of propaganda. The second task of propganda is the disruption
of the existing state of affairs and the permeatio of this state of
affairs with the new doctrine, while the second task of organiazation must
be the struggle for power, thus to achieve the final success of the
doctrine." (Ibid. p. 583.) 

Given the above, is it not "interesting" that Hilter, in _Mein Kampf_,
(according to the index) mentions Jews about 150 times? Marxism some 80
times? Race over 25 times? And Social Democracy 20 times? (In comparison,
Hitler mentions the NSDAP a little over 50 times.) 

> Strangely accurate, seeing that the words were written in 1922. If you
> disagree with Hitler's evaluation, why do you try so hard to live up to
> it?

Actually, I thought the part:

"The Jew had not the slightest recollection of the day before, he rattled
off his same old nonsense as though nothing at all had happened, and, if
indignantly challenged, affected amazement; he couldn't remember a thing,
except that he had proven the correctness of his assertions the previous
day."

...Fits _you_ to a tee, Mr. Belling. Just substitute "anti-Semitic lying
scumbag Nazi apologist" for "Jew" and it would be a _perfect_ fit. 

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semtism, and outright lies,
please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Dec 31 09:10:32 PST 1996
Article: 90215 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!newsfeed.luth.se!news.luth.se!erix.ericsson.se!eua.ericsson.se!news.algonet.se!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Now Playing....Irma Grese
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 18:31:28 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 34
Message-ID: 
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <19961228221600.RAA21156@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
fafner13@aol.com (Fafner13) wrote:

> # Grese testified that the gas chambers were rumored.
> 
> "I knew that prisoners were gassed" - Irma Grese,
> in "The Belsen Trial", p. 251.
> 
> 
> -Danny Keren.
> 
> Now, revert to her earlier testimony and show everyone here what a
> deceitful man you are.

You first, Mr. Belling. By all means. 

For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semtism, and outright lies,
please visit:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Dec 31 09:10:33 PST 1996
Article: 90230 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: HOLOCAUST OF MIND
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 17:22:19 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 225
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In article <32d2f29b.3905606@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
wrote:

> Entered here you will find a number of ravings that can be taken
> as racist exaggerations.... 

But what _else_ should one expect from a stark-raving anti-Semite like the
Moran(tm)? 

[snip]

> I.           - "South West Jewish Archives" -
>  (Webcrawler > Jews > Southwestern Jewish Archives > Crypto-Jews)
> 
>         "The Bloom Southwest Jewish Archives has amassed an enormous
> amount of information ..." to show that the Catholics were stupid
> people and that Jews were the only ones who could read and write in
> pioneer days.

[snip]

"Mr. Moran has falsely claimed that the Bloom Southwest Jewish Archives
(at the University of Arizona) is dedicated to proving that Jews are superior
to Catholics.  Needless to say, no statement of the sort appears in the Bloom
Archives' web pages; Mr. Moran just made that up.  The website (whose URL I
don't have handy at the moment) _does_ include an article about the
Southwest's crypto-Jews, which Mr. Moran selectively and misleadingly quoted
to give the impression that the Bloom Archives pursued an anti-Catholic
agenda.  He ignored several followup posts which pointed out that the Bloom
Archives' website includes statements about the rich cultural diversity and
commitment to religious freedom of the many peoples who settled the
Southwest."

Source: http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies/morans-lies

> II.               "ISRAEL IS OUR ONLY PRIORITY" 
> So goes the banner heading in a 1/4 page ad in the New York Times
> 1/23/94, under a little prelude copy that cites " -January 27, 1994-
> is the New Year of the Trees."
>         "Founded in 1901, the Jewish National Fund has long been
> designated as the sole agency in charge of afforestation and land
> reclamation in Israel."
>         "JNF has planted over 200,000,000 trees throughout Israel. JNF
> also builds roads and parks; prepares land for housing, agriculture
> and industry ..."  the later being that area outside of the 8000 sq.
> miles of the whole of Israel we would have to eliminate when trying to
> figure out how many trees per sq. yard 200,000,000 trees would come
> out to....

Well, the Moran(tm) once said (while beating himself about the head and
shoulders for our amusement) in Message-ID: <49pvdv$mu4@zippy.cais.net>:

"Every now and then we will see a sizable ad in the N.Y. Times touting Israel.
One of them claimed that the Jews have planted 200,000,000 trees, in an
effort to have the readers think that Isreal is big on enviroment. This
would come out to about one tree for every two square feet."

Source: http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/1995/moran.1295

> ...After a little more boisterous copy we are given a sketch of a
> rolling hill vista covered with trees. I wonder what a photograph
> would show?
>         Whatever the real story, this ad was placed in an American
> newspaper for some reason. Evidently to let us know how ecologically
> minded they are. 200,000,000 trees? 

[snip]

> V.                         Raul Hilberg,
>              "The Destruction of European Jews"
> 
> "On October 30, 1941, Gebietskommissar Carl of Slutsk reported to
> Generalkommissar Kube of White Russia that the 11th Lithuanian Police
> Battalion had arrived in his city suddenly in order to wipe out the
> Jewish community. He had pleaded with the battalion commander for a
> postponement, pointing out that the Jews were working as skilled
> laborers and specialists and that White Russian mechanics were, '"so
> to speak, nonexistent'".
>         Stupid Russians.

Stupid Moran(tm). See: 

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies/hilberg-out-of-context

>                             =================
> 
> 
> VI.          "The Destruction of the European Jewry"
>                         Raul Hilberg    
> 
>         "On Nov.7 Gouverneur Fischer of the Warsaw district proposed that
> the Warsaw Jews (whose number he estimated at 300,000) be incarcerated
> in a ghetto, and Frank gave his immediate consent ... During the
> winter, Fischer created a Resettlement Division under Waldermar Schon,
> who was going to have a major role in ghetto planning ... The first
> idea, in February, to locate the ghetto in the eastern bank of the
> Vistula River, was turned down ... on the ground that 80 percent of
> Warsaw's artisans were Jews ... and were indispensable ..."
> 
>         Well it seems Hilberg gives the Poles more sense than the White
> Russians whose talents he claimed were for the most part "nonexistent"
> in relation to the Jews and the Poles in their own nation made up 20%.
> Either way - stupid Poles.
>         One could wonder what ratio of "artisans" he would profess the
> Jews have in America. 

Stupid Moran(tm) again. See: 

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies/hilberg-out-of-context

>                           ===============
> 
>                   
> VII.    As to the statement, 'Well it seems Hilberg gives the Poles more
> sense than the White Russians whose talents he claimed were for the
> most part "nonexistent" in relation to the Jews.' 
>                        
>         Danny Mittleman, alt.rev. regular, responded to this with;
> 
>         "I guess so."   
> 
> As to the statement, 'One could wonder what ratio of "artisans" he
> (Hilberg) would profess the Jews have in America.' 
> 
>         Danny Mittleman responded:
>     "I don't know.  I would guess it to be less than 80% for two
> reasons: 
>     One, for many years Jews were systematically kept out of trade
> unions so less Jewish families developed traditions in specific
> fields.  And two, many Jewish children in the United States go to
> College and Graduate School and take on careers common at those
> education levels."
>         
>         Which means if it wasn't for this, the Jews would be at least 80%
> of the artisan story in America. Stupid Americans.


Stupid stupid Moran(tm). See: 

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies/hilberg-out-of-context

>                             ================     
> 
> VIII.    Nizkor > Shofar FTP > camps > Mauthausen > Hungary .01
> 
>         "The fate of the Jewish settlement in Hungary -- one of the
> largest in Europe -- was a desolating climax to the tragic Holocaust
> period. Before Hitler came to power in 1933 there were about 800,000
> Jews in greater Hungary, 200,000 of then living in Budapest, where
> despite an endemic anti-Semitism, they were at the forefront of
> culture, scientific and economic life of the country."
> 
> Abram Sachar, "The Redemption of the Unwanted". 1983
> 
>         The figure for the number of prewar Jews in Hungary ranges from
> 700,000 to 900,000 - 800,000 here. The 700,000 figure is that set
> forth by an estimate by the Germans, which the Jews use as an
> authority to show there was a large enough Jewish population in Europe
> to have been killed and add up to the 6,000,000. 

Could this "700,000 figure" that was "an estimate by the Germans" be,
perhaps, found in the "Wannsee Protocols?" If so, the moran might study it
a bit more closely. In my copy of _Death Dealer_ the minutes to the
conference are found in Appendix III. On page 375 there is a table listing
"the 11 million Jews in question" which is divided up by on a
country-by-country basis. The entry for France is as follows:

France / Occupied terrotories            165,000
         Non-occupied territories        700,000

What does the Moran(tm) think the term "Non-occupied territories" means? 

> The same source cited 700,000 French Jews... 

In the "Non-occupied territories."

> ...which is currently put at 70,000 in more current
> Holocaust books. 

Nope. As of the summer of 1940, aproximately 350,000 Jews lived in France.
In all some 77,000 Jews from France were killed in concentration camps in
Poland or died while in "protective custody." About 70,000 of these French
Jews were sent to Auschwitz. (cf. Gutman, _The Encyclopedia of the
Holocaust_,p. 511-512.) 

> ...Evidently there was too much of one thing or not
> enough of another to maintain the gross exaggeration for France, so we
> should seriously consider any figures given in the list. 

Evidently somebody dumped a bottle of Barcardi 151 into the Moran's(tm)
eggnog, so we really shouldn't take the above blathering seriously....

>                             ==============

[The rest of Moran's(tm) anti-Semitic ranting snipped]

The Moran (tm)  is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semite engaged in
blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi apologia, and Holocaust denial.
The Moran (tm) generally conducted himself with such a complete lack of
intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in
taking the time to read and respond.  For detailed and documented evidence
of this, please refer to:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom

But what else should one expect from a lying anti-Semite who holds wacko
beliefs, is intellectually depraved, hasn't the slightest clue regarding
Supreme Court decisions, or what constitutes a dud at the  box-office? For
evidence of this please see:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/1996/what-moran-believes.9607
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies/hilberg-out-of-context
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-menorah-faq
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-schindler-faq

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Dec 31 09:10:34 PST 1996
Article: 90234 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!dciteleport.com!feed1.news.erols.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Letter About The Holocaust by Ken Blewitt
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 19:52:56 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 36
Message-ID: 
References: <5a34bj$863@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <32c81fdc.2178124@news.inetport.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi143.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32c81fdc.2178124@news.inetport.com>, mcurtis@inetport.com wrote:

> kblewitt@ix.netcom.com(Kenneth T. Blewitt) wrote:
> 
> >A Nizkorite wrote:
> >
> >>Who is "Ken Blewitt" and why should anyone here care what he thinks?
> >
> >    Who is Blewitt?  I suggest that you ask Van Alstine who Blewitt is.
> >He has met me (Blewitt) in a fair encounter, so he should know.
> >    In fairness two things should be said here:  (a) Van Alstine
> >underestimated me - and this was understandable, for I was new around
> >here.  (b) Van Alstine had no idea that my attack would come from the
> >left - which was also understandable.
> >    I think I was lucky to do as well as I did with Van Alstine in this
> >first encounter.  Next time things will be tougher, I am sure.
> >    But I repeat:  If you want to know who Blewitt is you should ask
> >your Nizkorite comrade, Van Alstine.
> >
> >Ken Blewitt
> 
> 
> We all have better things to do than ask about you, sir.
> 

Indeed. Some of us have a fish barrel to return for the deposit....

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
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From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Dec 31 09:10:34 PST 1996
Article: 90235 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!dciteleport.com!feed1.news.erols.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi143.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Letter About The Holocaust by Ken Blewitt
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 19:51:41 -0700
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References: <5a34bj$863@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
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In article <5a34bj$863@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
kblewitt@ix.netcom.com(Kenneth T. Blewitt) wrote:

> A Nizkorite wrote:
> 
> >Who is "Ken Blewitt" and why should a