From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Aug  1 06:11:04 PDT 1996
Article: 54726 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: 1 Aug 1996 02:20:03 GMT
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In article <4tm9cp$ifm@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

> >   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>   
> > It is amazing that some people believe that a morgue would never be 
> > fumigated. If in fact they sampled the morgue which is not clear, 
> > noting that there is no specific connection of sample number with 
> > location or source as is required in such an investigation.  
>   
> > Believe it or not, regardless of politicla affilition, most people 
> > do not like the sight of maggot on corpses and rat eaten corpses. 

Not that the Nazis had to handle the corspes of the victims they murdered.
That was left to the Sonderkommando prisoners. 
 
> Apparently Matty poo has just announced that the use of Zyclon B will 
> prevent maggots in morgues.  Odd that he does not tell us how.
> 
> Please give us the mechanism for this Matty poo.  Another example of 
> your scientific illiteracy would be amusing.

Indeed it would, especially considering the following: 

"When blowflies oviposit, their eggs has come very short in their
embryonic development. The eggs are approximate 2 mm in length. During the
first eight hours or so there is little signs of development. This changes
after that, and one can see the larvae through the chorion of the egg at
the end of the egg stage. The egg stage typically lasts a day or so.

Source: _Forensic entomology and estimating time of death_,
http://www.uio.no/~mostarke/forens_ent/forensic_entomol_pmi.html

Given that the corpses of the victims murdered by the Nazis in the gas
chambers were generally incinerated within 24-hours of their death, the
argument that L.Keller 1 was fumigated to "prevent maggots in morgues" is
a rather specious argument considering that the larvae would hardly have
had time to hatch (at best) before the corpses of the victims were
incinerated. No bodies, no larvae. No larvae, no reason to fumigate the
L.Keller to kill larvae. 

As to rats? How exactly were rats supposed get into the gas chamber? The
victims were herded into it and then immediately gassed. Obviously, any
rats present would also have perished. Again, given, that the Nazis
ordered the Sonderkommandos to _immediately_ start the removal of the
victims' corpses from the gas chamber and take them to the furnace hall to
be incinerated- a very busy enterprise involving dozens of Sonderkommando
trafficking back and forth beween the furnace hall and gas chamber for
hours -makes the idea that somehow the bare concrete gas chambers
immediateley became infested with rats, thus requiring L.Keller 1 to be
fumigated, rather ludicrous. 

But then, the Troll is the master of ludicrous arguments. But such
insanity need not be taken seriously, just pitied -and easily refuted
everytime it is put forward.

Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Aug  1 06:11:05 PDT 1996
Article: 54727 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: That Lipstadt quote on Nizkor's home page...
Date: 31 Jul 1996 22:35:53 GMT
Organization: rbi software systems
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In article <4tmff2$n65@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>, rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU
(Richard J. Green) wrote:

> In article ,
> Jamie McCarthy  wrote:
> 
> >Lipstadt may be implying that, since the public is unarmed against these
> >lies, the lies should be kept from the public. I don't know.  I can't
> >presume to speak for Lipstadt.

No, Lipstadt most definely does NOT advocate this. (See below.)

> To my knowlege Lipstadt has never argued for censorship in the 1st
> amendment sense.  She has pointed out, correctly, that college
> newspapers are under no obligation to print advertisements they know to
> be untrue.

Indeed. Lipstadt also points out the problems in attempting to muzzle
Holocust deniers with "legal maneuvers." (See below.) 

Perhaps it is best to let Lipstadt's words speak for her on what she does
and does not advocate? To wit, from her book _Denying the Holocaust_
(1994); pp. xvii, 219-22:

³...Given that the Holocaust itself beggars the imagination, it is predictable 
that the deniers will find good-hearted but uneducated people who will succumb 
to these mental gyrations.

³More important, we must remember that we are dealing with an irrational
phenomenon that is rooted in one of the oldest hatreds, antisemitism.
Antisemitism, like every other form of prejudice, is not responsive to
logic. 
We may battle against contemporary manifestations of it and hope that we
are successful, but none of us should be deluded into thinking that any
particular battle will be the last. Deniers may have been dealt a blow by
major developments such as the opening of the United States Holocaust
Memorial Museum and the film _Schindler's List_. But a museum and film
alone will not vanquish them. Either
the deniers or the next genre of antisemites will eventually surface in some 
other form. As Albert Camus reminds us in the final paragraphs of The Plague:

 ³He knew that the tale he had to tell could not be one of a final victory. 
  It could  be  only the record of what had had to be done and what assuredly  
  would have to be done again in the never--ending fight against terror and
  its relentless onslaughts.... And indeed, as he listened to the cries of 
  joy rising from the town Rieux remembered that such joy is always imperiled. 
  He knew what  those jubilant crowds did not know but could have learned 
  from books: that the plague bacillus never dies or disappears for good; 
  that it can lie dormant for- years and years in furniture and linen-chests;
  that it bides its time in bedrooms, cellars, trunks and bookshelves; and 
  that perhaps the day would come when ... it roused up its rats again and 
  sent them forth to die in a happy city.

³In the 1930s Nazi rats spread a virulent form of antisemitism that resulted 
in the destruction of millions. Today the bacillus carried by these rats 
threatens to "kill" those who already died at the hands of the Nazis for a 
second time by destroying the world's memory of them. One can only speculate 
about the form of the bacillus' next mutation. All those who value truth,
particularly truths that are subject to attack by the plague of hatred,
must remain ever vigilant. The bacillus of prejudice is exceedingly
tenacious and 
truth and memory exceedingly fragile.

³...What, then, are the most efficacious strategies for countering these
attacks? Much of the onus is on academe, portions,of which have already
miserably failed the test. Educators, historians, sociologists, and
political scientists hold one of the keys to a defense of the truth. What
those who cannot be beguiled by diversionary arguments and soft reasoning
know to be fact must be made accessible to the general public.

³The establishment of Holocaust museums may play an important role in this
effort. These institutions, and all who teach about the Holocaust, must be
scrupulously careful about the information they impart so as not
inadvertently to provide the deniers with room to maneuver. They must also
be careful about "invoking" the Holocaust as a means of justifying certain
policies and actions.

³This is particularly true for the Jewish community. The purveyors of
popular culture-television and radio talk-show hosts prominent among
them-must understand that by Living denial a forum they become pawns in a
dangerous war. As in individuals who help shape public opinion, they must
recognize that this struggle is not about ignorance but about hate.

³There are those who believe that the courtroom is the place to fight the
deniers. This is where Austria, Germany, France, and Canada have mounted
their efforts. The legislation that has been adopted takes different
forms. Some bills criminalize incitement to hatred; discrimination; or
violence on racial, ethnic, or religious grounds. Others ban the
dissemination of views based on racial superiority for one sector of the
population and expression of contempt toward a group implying its racial
inferiority.

The problem with such legal maneuvers is that they are often difficult to
sustain or carry through. In August 1992 the Canadian Supreme Court threw
out Zundel's conviction when they ruled that the prohibition against
spreading false news likely to harm a recognizable group was too vague and
possibly restricted legitimate forms of speech . An even greater
difficulty arises when the court is asked to render a decision not on a
point of law, as happened in the Mermelstein case, but on a point of
history, as happened in the Zundel trial, in which the judge took
historical notice of the Holocaust. It transforms the legal arena into a
historical forum, something the courtroom was never designed to be. When
historical disputes become lawsuits, the outcome is unpredictable.

³The main shortcoming of legal restraints is that they transform the
deniers into martyrs on the altar of freedom of speech. This, to some
measure, has happened to Faurisson, who in March 1991 was convicted of
proclaiming the Holocaust a "lie of history." The same court that found
him guilty denounced the law under which he was tried and convicted. The
free-speech controversy can obscure the deniers' antisemitism and turn the
hate monger into a victim.  A recent National Public, Radio report on
controlling neofascist activities in Europe took exactly this approach
toward, Faurisson's conviction. Rather than dwell on what he has said and
done, it focused on his loss of freedom of speech. When the publisher of
the Austrian magazine Halt was convicted of "neo-Nazi activities" for his
Holocaust-denial statements, _Spotlight_ published the news under a
headline that read, NO FREE SPEECH.  A disturbing reversal of the
free-speech argument has recently been used by deniers to penalize those
who oppose them. In 1984 David McCalden, the former director of the IHR,
contracted to rent exhibit space at the California Library Association's
annual conference. The subject of his exhibit was the Holocaust "hoax."
The Simon Wiesenthal Center and the American Jewish Committee (AJC)
protested to both city and association officials. The Wiesenthal Center
rented a room near McCalden's exhibit space to set up its own exhibit, and
the AJC threatened to conduct demonstrations outside the hotel in which
the meeting was to be held. When the association cancelled McCalden's
contract he sued the Wiesenthal Center and the AJC, arguing that they had
conspired to deprive him of his constitutional rights to free speech.
Though the court dismissed his complaint, the U.S. Circuit Court of
Appeals reversed that decision in 1992. The case constitutes the first
time that the First Amendment has been used to attempt to still the voices
of those who oppose Nazi bigotry. 

³Another legal maneuver has been adopted by a growing number of countries.
They, have barred entry rights to known deniers. David Irving, for
example, has been barred from Germany, Austria, Italy, and Canada.
Australia is apparently also considering barring him.

³Others have argued that the best tactic is just to ignore the deniers
because what they crave is publicity, and attacks on them provide it. I
have encountered this view repeatedly while writing this book. I have been
asked if I am giving them what they want and enhancing their credibility
by deigning to respond to them. Deny them what they so desperately desire
and need, and, critics claim, they will wither on the vine. It is true
that publicity is what the deniers need to survive, hence their
media-sensitive tactics- such as ads in college papers, challenges to
debate  ³exterminationists,² pseudoscientific reports, and truth tours of
death-camp sites. I once was an ardent advocate of ignoring them. In fact,
when I first began this book I was beset by the fear that I would
inadvertently enhance their credibility by responding to their fantasies.
But having immersed myself in their activities for too long a time, I am
now convinced that ignoring them is no longer an option. The time to hope
that of their own accord they will blow away like the dust is gone. Too
many of my students have come to me and asked, "How do we know there
really were gas chambers?" "Was the Diary of Anne Frank a hoax?" "Are
there actual documents attesting to a Nazi plan to annihilate the Jews?"
Some of these students are aware that their questions have been informed
by deniers. Others are not; they just know that they have heard these
charges. and are troubled by them.

³Not ignoring the deniers does not mean engaging them in discussion or
debate. In fact, it means not doing that. We cannot debate them for two
reasons, one strategic and the other tactical. As we have repeatedly seen,
the deniers long to be considered the "other" side. Engaging them in
discussion makes them exactly that. Second, they are contemptuous of the
very tools that shape any honest debate: truth and reason. Debating them
would be like trying to nail a glob of jelly to the wall.

³Though we cannot directly engage them, there is something we can do.
Those who care not just about Jewish history or the history of the
Holocaust but about truth in all its forms, must function as canaries in
the mine once did, to guard against the spread of noxious fumes. We must
vigilantly stand watch against an increasingly nimble enemy. But unlike
the canary, we must not sit silently by waiting to expire so that others
will be warned of the danger. When we witness assaults on truth, our
response must be strong, though neither polemical nor emotional. We must
educate the broader public and academe about this threat and its
historical and ideological roots. We must expose these people for what
they are.

³The effort will not be pleasant. Those who take on this task will
sometimes feel- as I often did in the course of writing this work -as if
they are being forced to _prove_ what they know to be fact. Those of us
who make scholarship our vocation and avocation dream of spending  our
time charting new paths, opening new vistas, and offering new perspectives
on some aspect of the truth. We seek to discover, not to defend.  We did
not train in our respective fields in order to stand like watchmen and
women on the Rhine. Yet this is what we must do. We do so in order to
expose falsehood and hate.  We will remain ever vigilant so that the most
precious tools of our trade and our society- truth and reason -can
prevail. The still, small voices of millions cry out to us from the ground
demanding that we do no less.



Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Aug  1 06:11:06 PDT 1996
Article: 54746 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is, and what ain't
Date: 31 Jul 1996 22:56:52 GMT
Organization: rbi software systems
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In article <31f78739.5257640@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) wrote:

In reply to Moran's recycled denier rubbish (where _does_ he get this
absurd stuff?) I will continue repost the following reply:

[specious conjecture snipped]

> The Holocaust story has it that there were five retorts (fire
> chambers) heating three ovens each for a total of fifteen in Crema II.

Krema I had three (3) furnaces with two (2) muffles (retorts) each.

Kremas II and III had five (5) furnaces with three (3) muffles (retorts) each.

Kremas IV and V had one (1) furnace with eight (8) muffles (retorts) each.

> The story has it that underground flues were installed to direct the
> thermal intense fumes and ashes away from the retorts and to a chimney
> located out side of the building. 

The underground flues to vent the hot exhaust gases from the furnaces are
easily discerned in the construction drawings of the Krema II . The
incinerated human remains fell through the chamotte grid of the retort
into the ash collection channel at the base of the furnace, then pulled
forward towards the ash collection door until they were _completely_
incinerated, and then manually removed. They were _not_ vented through the
chimney along with the hot exhaust gases. 

> In some cases the location of a retort might require running any duct system 
> as far 40 or 50 feet to the stack outside.

Indeed. One of the first problems with Krema I, for instance, was that the
draft of the chimney was insufficient because the chimney was too short.
Kohler, a local engineering expert, ended up _adding_ a 12 m (underground)
flue to the (modified) 15 m chimney to create a draft of 27 m to solve the
problem. (cf. _Anatomy_, p.212.) 

> The fires are said to have been raging all day, day after day,
> week after week onto months. 

The furnaces were to said have been operated continuously _periodically_.
Specifically, during certain special Aktions, most notably Aktion Ho"ss,
in which approximately 438,000 Hungarian Jews were deported to Auschwitz
between  May 15 to July 9, 1944. (cf. _Auschwitz Chronicle_, p.627; _Death
Dealer_, p.45.) Of these 480,000 Hungarian Jews, about 394,000 (90%) were
murdered in the gas chambers on or shortly after their arrival at
Auschwitz II-Birkenau. 

That the Kremas did not typically operate continuously "all day, day after
day, week after week onto months" can easily be seen by fact that there
were gaps in the arrival of transports to Auschwitz (cf. _Auschwitz
Chronicle_) and that some of the Kremas were not on-line for significant
periods of time (cf. _Anatomy_, pp.233-237). Krema IV was disabled shortly
after it became operational in 1943 and was not subsequently used
thereafter (cf. Ibid. p.234). Krema V, for example, was idled through much
of (late) 1943 and only came on line in May of 1944 for Aktion Ho"ss (cf.
Ibid. p.238).  Krema I was retired in early 1943 and subsequently
converted into a bomb shelter (cf. Ibid. p.159).

> In this case we have to consider the likelihood that intense heat would build 
> up in the flue system, it being subjected to temperatures of 1500
degrees F or 
> more on a continuous basis.

The temperature in the underground flues was typically around 500-700 C.
The temperature of the furnaces themselves was somewhat higher- 800-1,000
C. (cf. _Technique_, p. 137.) Furthermore, according to the operating
instructions for the Topf double and triple-muffle furnaces, the operating
temperature was to have been kept _below_ 1,100 C by introducing fresh air
(from the pulsed air blower.) (cf. Ibid. p.136.) 

> Five of these flue arms converging from a radiating pattern
> beneath the floors of the building would have to have some negative
> effect. The heat wouldn't be able to dissapate fast enough through the
> soil, the soil temperature itself would have to hit hundreds of
> degrees. 

And does Moran provide the heat exchange equations to support this? No.
Does he provide historical evidence? No. Does he state what specific
problems to the Krema(s) this "negative effect" might cause? No. Well,
what _does_ Moran provide in support of his "claims?" Evidently, nothing
but his _own_ hot-air. How typical.

> How was this flue system constructed? It would need very special
> attention. Special pump systems to draw the hot expended gases and ash
> down into the ground and then to the chimney, a housing chamber for
> the motor and workings and some kind of heat dissapation system for
> the flues. 

Indeed in Kremas I, II, and III we know that they were initially equipped
with forced-draft ventilation systems. 

> Just trying to ballpark a design musters up a vision of a
> sizable undertaking, probably requiring technology the Germans hadn't
> had to develope before. 

Obviously, Moran's "vision" is rather limited in scope and understanding.
The Germans did indeed develop and use such technology. In fact, said
"technology" was rather mundane. In Krema I, for instance,  it consisted
of a rotary damper in the chimney to route the air flow past, a
moter-driven fan, to force a draft. The  fan/motor was water-cooled. When
the draft was established the damper was switched to route the exhaust
gases back through the base of the chimney (closing off passage to the
fan/motor) and the fan shut off. (cf. Ibid. p.137.) During continuous
operation, when the furnaces were hot, the draft was already well
established and the forced draft ventilation system was not used. 

> Holocaust researcher, Pressac, has poured over these records for
> ten years and has presented his culminating conclusions by dramatic
> prose, citing orders for this or that, presenting plans and systems
> layouts and citing communications.

Indeed he has. And if Moran had actually examined Pressac's work in detail
he would have realized that it clearly contradicts his insinuations. 

> But no where is there an account of any system that would be
> required to make the claimed flue system work.

Not true. See above. 

[more specious conjecture snipped]

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Aug  1 06:11:07 PDT 1996
Article: 54760 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news.ultranet.com!zombie.ncsc.mil!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!ames!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: 1 Aug 1996 07:43:25 GMT
Organization: rbi software systems
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Message-ID: 
References: <4tisd1$cbl@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU> <4tk7q7$ij9@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4tmels$n4e@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>
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In article <4tmels$n4e@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>, rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU
(Richard J. Green) wrote:

> In article <4tk7q7$ij9@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
> Ehrlich606  wrote:
> 

[snip]

> >>Is Ehrlich accusing Pressac of fabrication?  I assume he has good
> >>evidence for this claim.
> >
> >Until I see _proof_ for the paragraph where Pressac argues for the fan
> >kicking in after 5 minutes, other than his orotund description of fan
> >motors in the roof of the Krema, I will be forced to conclude that he is
> >making it up.  I note that you snipped it out.

As to "proof" that the ventilation of the gas chambers could have taken
place aproximately 5 minutes after the Zyklon B was administered one need
only look to Dr. Bendel's testimony concerning a gassing at Krema V:

"...Five minutes later the doors were opened...." (Ibid. p.470.) 

Clearly, Zyklon B had the capacity to kill the victims within a few
minutes. As Krema V initially had no mechanical ventilation system, the
doors were opend as soon as possible to air out the gas chambers. One then
might wonder, as Pressec evedently did, _why_ would the SS wait 20-30
minutes- just before the gas-tight door of L.Keller 1 was opened -to start
the mechanical ventilation system of Krema II to air out the gas chamber?
Given that the victims died wihin a few minutes of the Zyklon B being
introduced, why _not_ start the ventilation of the gas chamber as soon as
possible to air out the lethal atmosphere as much as possibel _before_ the
door gas-tight door was opened? 

As to Pressac's "orotund description of fan motors in the roof of the
Krema I would offer the following:

"The emplacement for the lift and ventilation motors are confirmed by the
testimony of a former prisoner, Porebski, who was a member of the
electrician commando from spring 1942 to the beginning of 1945 [<> by Langbein, p.92 ff]:

"'In Krematorium I [II] and II [III] there were electric extractor fans to
evacuate the gas and blowers by the furnaces to improve the fire...'

"'...in the roof space there was a room for the Sonderkopmmando [summer
1944]. There was also a lift and the installation for the ventilator fans
and an electrical safety installation.' [room si of the roof space, in the
western part of drawing 980] (_Technique_, p.374.) 

> Yes, I snipped it for brevity, anyone can go find the original post.
> It's fair to ask what Pressac's source is.  It's not fair to accuse him
> of fabrication if you can't demonstrate it.

When all Ehrlich606 has to "defend" himself with against Pressac is a
baseless accusation of fabrication, he obviously feel uncontrained by any
reasonable standard of integrity against flinging it out in desperation.
Pity. To have fallen so low so fast.... 

Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Aug  1 06:11:08 PDT 1996
Article: 54769 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: 31 Jul 1996 21:34:21 GMT
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 174
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In article <31fe411d.88014559@news.inetport.com>, mike@aimetering.com
(Mike Curtis) wrote:

> ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:
> 
> >This is not true.  The *denier* position, as you so mischaracterize has
> >been: (a) the evolution of ZB is such that it would have to be removed
> >from the room before it could be fully ventilated...
> 
> Really. I read that the whole process took about an hour. Ventalations
> turned on after 20 minutes.

Actually, according to Pressac, the _entire_ process: undressing, herding
the victims into the gas chamber, gassing them, removing the bodies from
the gas chamber and taking them to the furnace hall, took several hours.
The actual homicidal gassing and ventilation of the gas chambers was a
small part- time-wise -of the whole operation. 

Then there was also, again according to Pressac, the incineration of the
victims, which took even longer-  a day or more depending on the number of
victims. The incineration process was by far the biggest bottleneck in the
extermination process, which was why incineration pits were used to
augment the Kremas during Aktion Ho"ss. 

>...But you rode away from those posts.

Indeed he did. Right into the sunset....  
 
> > (b) the concept of
> >induction columns is described by few eyewitnesses, and correctly by
> >perhaps none (e.g., Nyiszli), (c) the evolution of the gas _could_ be a
> >problem in light of the volume of the tube which would fill with gas
> >before spilling out into the chamber.
> 
> And this is based on what?

Fantasy, evidently. Perhaps ignorance even. 

> >>_That_ is utter nonsense on _your_ part, Ehrlich606. Is this to be 
> >>yet _another_ topic you jump on your rhetorical high horse 
> >>(hobby horse?) and ride away from? 
> >
> >As usual, the tired van Alstine resorts to cheap ad hominems because he
> >would rather persuade people by appealing to their emotions than their
> >logic.
> >
> 
> There's no logic here Ehrlich. this is what you do. Exactly what you
> do. You are the dangling thread ad nauseum.

LOL! 

> >>> Now this was the point of Lueftl's calculations.  He claimed that if
> >>> the ZB was put in, someone would have to clean it up. The *wastefulness*
> >>> argument, IMHO, is not really relevant.  Whether 92% is still in after
> >>> 10 minutes, or something else, the point is that the ZB is going to be
> >>> dangerous and still outgas for some time after opening the can.
> >>
> >>So much for you "dropping" discusion on this as "we can't get specifics!"
> >
> >>Hypocrite.  
> >
> >Another gratuitous assault, as predictable in a van Alstine post sun after
> >a shower.
> 
> People like you who want it both ways are entitled to the description,
> don't you think?

I seriously doubt he does. I think it quite likely that Ehrlich606 thinks
it only right and proper that he apply a double-standard to himself. At
least that is what I glean from his writings and rationalizations....

[snip]

> >>The "problem" was, as is typical, with the deniers. It was a problem of 
> >>distortion, deceit, and turning a blind eye to the evidence. In other 
> >>words, the usual denier antics. 
> >
> >As with all conventionalist ripostes, it is a problem of distortion, rabid
> >appeals to emotion, and cliche ad hominems.
> >
> 
> The problem with you is your whining which is always expected. So I'll
> assume that Mark is correct in his description since you offer 0 in
> return.

Indeed. It is self-evident from Ehrlich606's posts. 

[snip]

> >What do Holzblenden have to do with it?  Describe precisely how that would
> >work.
> 
> No. You do this. YOU do the work for once. Your are the denier, you
> provide substantiation. The ball is in your court.

Actually, the "work" was _already_ sitting there in front of his eyes, but
he evidently wasn't able to see it. Sometimes it's tough having a "blind
eye".... 

[snip]

> > You fail to do so, directly,
> >instead you invoke Pressac, below:
> >
> 
> This is fair historiography, Ehrlich606.

Thank you. I thought so too.

[snip]

> >>For example, Camp Commandant Hoess and Dr. Nyiszli report EXACTLY the 
> >>same sequence: pouring of Zyklon-B through the openings in the ceiling, 
> >>the pellets running down the four wire mesh columns and rapid 
> >
> >Where does Hoess talk about the wire mesh?  

 

Ho"ss wrote, "...the waiting disinfection squads would immediately pour
the gas [crystals] into the vent in the ceiling of the gas chambers down
an air shaft which went to the floor. This ensured the rapid distribution
of the gas...." (_Death Dealer_, p.44.) 

Ho"ss also said that "the gas" was poured. He didn't didn't say "crystals"
or "pea-sized granules" or say whether it was blue or mauve either. It was
an  _unimportant_ detail. Ho"ss description suffices (for all but the
impenetratively dense) that the Zyklon B was administered via the
wire-mesh introduction columns into the gas chamber. 

> >...Also, Nyiszli doesn't call them wire mesh, either.

 

Nyiszli wrote, "...They were not supporting columns, but square sheet-iron
pipes the sides of which contained numerous perforations, like a wire
lattice." (_Auschwitz_, p.50.) 

Well golly-gee-whiz, Ehrlich606, sure sounds like Nyiszli saw those
wire-mesh Zyklon B introduction columns, don't it? Why don't you stop
being an infantile bore with this drivel and simply admit you are blowing
smoke out your butt, Ehrlich606? It's soooo obvious. 

> Maybe it wasn't a detail important to them. Ever consider that. I
> don't know why Mark deals with you any more.

He's amusing in his own way. He certainly has the Troll beat hands down in
the sanity department. Not to mention Moran pales in comparison in
literary acumen. However, I must add, the keeping of a lamprey-like
lip-lock on the troll's butt is taking it's toll. I've noticed a marked
degeneration in his writings since the "new" Ehrlich606 debuted.

Interestingly, Giwewr's posts have shown a sporiadic improvement over the
same period. Must be a kind of mutated Vulcan mind-meld or something.
Denier lip-butt meld maybe? 

> I've had enough of this nonsense.

Nonsense it is indeed. Getting more so with every post Ehrlich606 makes. Pity. 

[snip]

Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Aug  1 06:53:40 PDT 1996
Article: 54816 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-chi-13.sprintlink.net!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: 31 Jul 1996 22:28:28 GMT
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 85
Message-ID: 
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com>  <4tajct$ljp@hades.rz.uni-sb.de>   <1wz-nOev1m$O065yn@login.dknet.dk>
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In article <1wz-nOev1m$O065yn@login.dknet.dk>, olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole
Kreiberg) wrote:

> In article , Daniel Keren wrote:
> >[Followup = alt.revisionism]
> >
> >olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) writes:
> >
> ># Why did the nazis chose Zyklon B for the killing of
> ># humans in the concentration camps? 
> >
> >Because it was simple and cheap. Two very good reasons.
> >
> ># Why didn't they chose sodium-cyanid crystals poured 
> ># down in sulphuric acid like they have done in execution
> ># gaschambers in the USA since the twenties and still do 
> ># today? 
> >
> >Why bother? There was plenty of Zyklon-B around, and simply
> >throwing it into the chambers, via the openings, was good enough.
> >
> But they still have to order it and have it delivered.

And sodium cyanide and sulphuric acid would not need to be ordered as
well? You make no sense whatsoever, Mr.Kreiberg. (But then you didn't make
sense with your "exploding corpses" claim either.) Irregardless, it is a
specious objection. Zyklon B was a commercial fumigant that was _designed_
to be shipped in bulk. It was in widespread use not only in the civilian
sector but within the German armed forces as well. Zyklon B, _because_ it
was ubiquitous, was _inconspicuous_. Only the removal (and diminuation) of
the lachrymal changed this. 

BTW, Not only would sulphuric acid need to be transported to Auschwitz, it
would need to be transported _away_ as well. And don't forget that it
would be contamninated with cyanides as well as _normally_ being toxic.
Spent Zyklon B, on the other hand, was non-toxic and easily transportable
(back to the factory) or disposable (typically by incineration).  

> >Why bother with a more complicated procedure?
> 
> The American way of executing people with HCN was well tested, very quick 
> and efficient. It was also a much more simple way of producing HCN gas.

So was the Nazi way. The homicidal use of Zyklon B was simplicity itself:
open a can, pour into the gas chamber, and walk away. The Nazi way was
also designed to kill hundreds, even _thousands_, at a time. Again, Mr.
Kreiberg, you are making no sense with your specious objections. 

> >No big problem. It was overcome by using gas masks or by
> >removing the Zyklon via the same device used to introduce
> >it into the chambers (this, at Kremas II and III). 
> >
> ># Furthermore it would have been much cheaper. 
> >
> >Prove it. Zyklon-B was manufactured in huge quantities before
> >and during the war. If what you say about its cost was true,
> >it would also have been too expensive to use as a fumigant.
> 
>  The fumigant was specially developed for killing insects, while the above 
> mentioned American way was specially developed for killing humans.

Mr. Kreiberg, you are being childish and absurd. Alfred Nobel invented
dynamite specifically for peaceful use. It did not mean, however, that
dynamite was not ideally suited as a munitions filler for the purpose of
wreaking death and destruction. 

The same can be said of Zyklon B. Simply beacuse it was designed to kill
insects does not mean it was not ideally suited as a mass-homicidal agent
for use in large gas chambers. 

Needless to say, Mr. Kreiberg, your resort to specious arguments is quite
unimpressive. 

Mark


posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Aug  1 16:43:55 PDT 1996
Article: 54826 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: 1 Aug 1996 06:57:32 GMT
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 109
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References: <4tmfhf$e12@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi145.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4tmfhf$e12@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
(Ehrlich606) wrote:

[snip]

> Reason why those black things ain't l'il chimneys:
> 
> 1)  They are too tall to be little anythings.

And what makes you think this? How tall do you think these ersatz "rolls
of tar paper" in the photo are? Please enumerate your assumptions. 

> 2)  They have definite variable width.  Please don't tell me they made
> them in different sizes.

And what makes you think this? How wide do you think these ersatz "rolls
of tar paper" in the photo are? Please enumerate your assumptions. 

> 3)  They are supposed to be made of concrete.  If those things were made
> of concrete, they would be very hard to move.  

And who said the "little chimneys" were moved after they were completed?
PLease provide evidence for this assumption. 

>...MVA said yesterday that _one __guy_ did it all by himself.

Hmmm. I don't recall writing that only one person was responsible for the
construction of the "little chimneys." Or that one person moved them
around, willy-nilly, on the roof. Please, help me out here and provide me
with the article where I said this. 

> 4)  They are black.  Concrete is not black.  You can follow in the steps
> of the Krakow Institute, and discriminate against black of unknown origin,
> but that is a violation of EEOC policy.

Yes, these ersatz "rolls of tar paper" in the photo are indeed "black."
But many _other_ things can appear black as well. What _other_ things,
Ehrlich606, do you suppose would _also_ appear "black" in the photo, given
that the "little chimneys" measured approximately 1m x 1m x 1m? Please do
demonstrate your critical thinking abilities here for us, Ehrlich606. I
can think of at lest one other thing that would look just like the photo,
but has nothing to do with "rolls of tar paper" on the roof of L.Keller 1.
Can you? 

> 5)  They are neither in the same location as the metre-wide holes in the
> aerial photos, nor are they large enough to cover those holes.  As Caecaa
> likes to say, holes can't move around in concrete.

Please demonstrate that these ersatz "rolls of tar paper" are not in the
same location of the "little chimneys" in the aerial photos taken of Krema
II. Please also enumerate your assumptions in detail. 

> Reasons why those tall black things aren't boxes:
> 
> 1)  Boxes are not normally black unless they are attached to airliners or
> containing theses by Goldhagen.  Boxes are made of _wood_ , and wood would
> show up as grey or white.

Please see my response to #4 (above). Again, I can think of a perfectly
mundane explination for what is seen in the photo that has nothing
whatsoever to do with "rolls of tar paper" and everything to do with
"little chimneys." Can you? 

> 2)  OTOH, if the boxes were metallic they would show sharper definition as
> well as glare.

Indeed. I would tend to agree that the "little chimneys" weren't made of metal. 

> 3)  The only kinds of boxes that would be standing up like that would be
> *this end up* type boxes, and therefore they would be containing
> furniture, or possibly rifles, but not building materials.  OTOH, the idea
> of leaving three boxes of rifles on the roof of a Krema unguarded at
> lunchtime is ridiculous.

I would also agree that Mr. Allen's idea that the "little chimneys" were
boxes of roofing material (instead of furniture or firearms) is indeed
ridiculous.  About as ridiculous, in fact, as your assertion that these
images in the photo are "rolls of tar paper" sitting on the roof.

I can think of another kind of "box" that would indeed make a great deal
of sense to be exactly where they are in the photo. Can you, Ehrlich606?
Or is such an excercise in logic and deductive reasoning too much for you?


> Reasons why the boxes are not rolls of tar paper, or some other roofing
> element either for the roof of the Krema or other part of the building,
> which is what they look like, and which is what I have seen on roofing
> jobs since I was a little boy:
> 
> NONE

Why? Because you say so. Such hubris. Tsk tsk. Such pride before the fall.
Tsk tsk tsk. Poor Ehrlich606. So _certain_ about those "rolls of tar
paper" too. 

Must be those "childhood memories." Such unreliable thing, memory. Or so
deniers always insist.... 

[snip]

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Aug  1 16:43:56 PDT 1996
Article: 54834 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!chi-news.cic.net!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: 30 Jul 1996 08:39:41 GMT
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 393
Message-ID: 
References:  <4thi4k$fdj@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi148.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4thi4k$fdj@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
(Ehrlich606) wrote:

> In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
> (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
> 

[snip]

> >If you had followed the various discusions for the last several months
> >you would have realized that this _was_ the gist of many denier arguments.
> >That it _was_ argued that homicidal gassings didn't take place _because_
> >eyewitness testimonies said it took about 5-10 minutes, then 20 minutes
> >or so to evacuate the gas chamber, and that because (allegedly) Zyklon B
> >took longer than this to evolve all the HCN "proved" that the eyewitnesses
> >were "lying." Ergo, no gassings took place. 
> 
> This is not true....  

Of course it is. Go read the archives. You can start from 1995 or so. 

[snip]

> >This is utter nonsense on the part of the deniers of course. 
> 
> *of course* is gratuitous here.  But you know that.

Of course. But well deserved. But you knew that. 

> >...And now, when presented with evidence that Zyklon B _did_ rapidly 
> >evolve much, if not most, of the HCN in about 10 minutes or so you 
> >suggest we "drop" the discussion as we "we can't get specifics?"
> 
> I said no such thing.  And you know that.

Excuse me. Did you not write in article <4tgek6$tm@newsbf02.news.aol.com>:

"My attitude on this is since we can't get specifics we should really drop
it. Neither the 37% hypothesis nor the Peters' comment are mutually
exclusive in the sense that nobody at this point in time is arguing for
complete outgassing in 10 minutes or even in one half hour."

Sure look like you suggested we "drop" the discussion as we "we can't get
specifics." 

But you knew that too. 

> >_That_ is utter nonsense on _your_ part, Ehrlich606. Is this to be yet 
> >_another_ topic you jump on your rhetorical high horse (hobby horse?) 
> >and ride away from? 
> 
> As usual, the tired van Alstine resorts to cheap ad hominems because he
> would rather persuade people by appealing to their emotions than their
> logic.

As usual, Ehrlich606 canters away. 

> >> Now this was the point of Lueftl's calculations.  He claimed that if
> >> the ZB was put in, someone would have to clean it up.  The *wastefulness*
> >> argument, IMHO, is not really relevant.  Whether 92% is still in after
> >> 10 minutes, or something else, the point is that the ZB is going to be
> >> dangerous and still outgas for some time after opening the can.
> >
> >So much for you "dropping" discusion on this as "we can't get specifics!"
> 
> >
> >Hypocrite.  
> 
> Another gratuitous assault, as predictable in a van Alstine post sun after
> a shower.

 You're _still_ a hypocrite. Go cry on the Troll's shoulder if it
makes you feel any better. 

> >> All right. But since the argument now goes that there are gas masks as
> >> well as induction tubes (actually, I gather prisms that contain the
> >> pellets, lowered by wire into the tube), and that the prisms are
> >> removed, we don't have an problem here anymore.
> >
> >The was never a _real_ problem in the first place! 
> 
> Of course there was.  There was a major problem until Pressac wrote his
> book.  

Such a stunning display of denier "logic." As if the reality of how the
gas chambers operated in 1941-44 didn't become reality until Pressac waved
his pen? Is this some denier corallary to the Schro"dinger's cat
experiment? That the gassings may or may not have has "problems" until
somebody writes about it? 

Pardon my laughter!

> And of course, there have evidently been problems since, as Pressac
> has revised the book several times, and it is still not possible to obtain
> the book mainstream.  Or perhaps you want to claim it is at Waldenbooks.

Interesting that you can vouch for these alleged "problems" without
reading the Pressac's book.... Who told you of these "problems?" A little
denier birdie? 

As to the difficulty of getting Pressac's _Technique_, I fully agree that
it is quite difficult to get. It took me over six months of beating the
bushes to get my copy. However, it was well worth the effort. So many
denier lies crumble to dust because of Pressac's commendable efforts. Only
if it _were_ in Waldenbooks! Right next to Irving's crap. 

> >The "problem" was, as is typical, with the deniers. It was a problem of 
> >distortion, deceit, and turning a blind eye to the evidence. In other words, 
> >the usual denier antics. 
> 
> As with all conventionalist ripostes, it is a problem of distortion, rabid
> appeals to emotion, and cliche ad hominems.

Sticks and stones, Ehrlich606. Doesn't change the fact that so far nearly
every denier (I'm being charitable here) that has posted for any decent
length of time in alt.revisionism has been exposed as a hypocrite and a
liar. Yourself included. 

> >> Therefore I conclude that the outgassing time of ZB is not really an
> >> issue anymore, since everyone (even Lueftl) concedes that 10 minutes is
> >> enough ime to kill everyone on the chamber (The one caveat here is the
> >> problem of the gas escaping through the baffles of the prism and the 
> >> induction column, but that is best addressed by an engineer.)  
> >
> >The "problem" of "gas escaping through the baffles" is yet another
> >example of denier "problems." The "solution," of course, sits there 
> >right in front of your face: _Holzblenden_. Each of the four
> >_Drahtnetzeinschiebvorrichtung_ came equipped with a _Holzblenden_. 
> >(cf. _Anatomy_, p.233.) 
> 
> What do Holzblenden have to do with it?  Describe precisely how that would
> work.

I did. See Tauber's account immediately below. 

> >According to Henryk Tauber:
> >
> >"...Through the window of the <>, I observed how the
> ><> [Zyklon B] was poured into the gas chamber. Each transport was
> >followed by a vehicle with Red Cross markings which entered the yard of
> >the crematorium, carrying the camp doctor, Mengele, accompanied by
> >Rottenfu"hrer [corporal] Scheimetz. They took the cans of <> from
> >the car and put them beside the small chimneys used to introduce the
> ><> into the gas chamber. There Scheimetz opened them with a
> >special cold chisel [with a ring of teeth at its head] and a hammer, then
> >poured the contents into the gas chamber. Then he closed the orifice with
> >a concrete [or wooden] cover. As there were four similar chimneys,
> >Scheimetz poured into each the contents of one of the smallest cans of
> ><>, which had yellow labels pasted right around them [see
> >Documents 32, 33, and 34]. Before openiung the cans, Scheimetz put on a
> >gas mask [see Document 35] which he wore while opening the cans and
> >pouring in the product. There were also other SS who performed this
> >operation, but I have forgotten their names. They were specially
> >designated for it and belonged top the <> [health
> >service]. A camp doctor [SS] was present at each gassing...."
> >(_Technique_. p.494.)
> 
> This is all totally irrelevant....  

Hardly irrelevent, Ehrlich606. Please take special note of: "Then he
closed the orifice with a concrete [or wooden] cover." 

There's how the Holzblenden worked. 

And you castigated me above for resorting "to cheap ad hominems because" I 
"would rather persuade people by appealing to their emotions than their
logic?"  Yet when make good faith efforts to put the _evidence_ that
refutes your paltry objections at your feet, you whine "this is all
totally irrelevant." 

 As Robin Williams once said, "I'm vexed by assholes!" 

> But it's good to see you made sure that Mengele was in on all the
gassings.  A 
> nice touch.  But I will hold you to the proposition that four cans were used 
> in four openings.

Oooh, I'm just shaking in my boots! (NOT!) 

But you do that, Ehrlich606, you hold me to those four cans of Zyklon B
that I quoted from Tauber's deposition in Pressac's _Technique_. But then
how about I hold _you_ to your dishonest "quotations" and lies of
ommission from Gilbert's _Nuremberg Diary_ and Lipstadt's _Denying the
Holocaust_? 

Care to explain yourself there, Ehrlich606? Hmmm? Or will you once more
canter in the sunset? 

> >The SS "disinfector" simply closed the cover on the "little chimney,"
> >which would have prevented any HCN gas from escaping. What a concept.
> >Such clever Nazis.  
> 
> Not surprisingly, you totally miss the point, as usual.

Predictably, it figures you'd take _that_ particular cop out. First you
make noises about how HCN esacping from the introduction columns would
pose "problems." Then when shown that the columns were capped with covers
to prevent such a thing (not to mention that the "disinfectors" wore gas
masks) you say (as you canter away) "you totally miss the point." 

Pardon my laughter! 

> >> ...The only other problem here is that Nyiszli, for example, claims
> >> that the fans were not turned on for 30 minutes.
> >
> >Isn't it rather pathetic of deniers, after they try to discredit
> >eyewitnesses when the eyewitnesses' testimonies contradicts their pet
> >"arguments" and that they will then turn around and cite the very same
> >eyewitnesses as an authority when they feel it _supports_ their
> arguments?
> >
> >
> >Hypocrite.
> 
> More gratuitous ad hominems.  

Ehrlich606, you _did_ try your damndest to discredit Nyiszli as a credible
witness, but you couldn't. And you _did_ turn around and cite Nyiszli
eyewitness testimony when it suited _your_ purpose. That's hyprocrital
behavior plain and simple. Pointing this out, that you are a hypocrite for
doing this, is not an ad hominem attack. I did not try to attack your
argument based on your hypocrisy but simply pointed out (rightly) that you
are a hypocrite. My attack on your argument followed this. 

> But, btw, I am not concerned with Nyiszli's veracity.  It is up to _you_ to 
> defend it.  

Nope. Nyislzli's testimony is part of the accepted record. You have a
problem with his testimony, you must successfully deconstruct it. So far
you haven't.  

> You fail to do so, directly, instead you invoke Pressac, below:

Indeed. Because _my_ argument _isn't_ concerned with _disproving_
Nyiszli's testimony! I accept that Nyiszli, to his best knowledge, thought
it was indeed 30  minutes. I presented Pressac's argument because he has a
credible explination that explains this apparent contradiction. 

[snip]

> Pressac ignores that a crush of human bodies also has a lot of nooks and
> crannies.... 

Nope. Pressac talks about something similar regarding "the crush of human
bodies" on page 377 of _Technique_. But since you seem to object so much
to my using Pressac for my arguments, I'll let _you_ look it up. };-> 

> ...You know, the kind that causes *suffocating coughs* in Nyiszli,
> but _not_ in any safety manuals on the handling of HCN.

Indeed. The kind that didn't kill anybody because the gas chamber was
thouroughly vented of so that there wasn't a hazardous concentration of
HCN. The kind that could have arose from the "constriction of the throat"
and "respitory difficulties." As for the "*suffocating coughs*" not being
in the "safety manuals" for HCN, didn't you also claim- incorrectly -that
the literature on the sysmptoms of HCN poisoning claimed that the victims
couldn't turn blue? 

[snip]

> And now we are down to five minutes, contradicting several witnesses.  

Start naming them. 

Dr. Nyiszli? Nope. He claimed that "within five minutes everybody was
dead." (_Auschwitz_, p. 51.) 

Dr. Bendel? Nope. He wrote, "The solid oak double doors were closed. For
two interminable minutes we could hear banging on the walls and cries that
no longer had anything human about them. And then nothing. My head was
spinning and I thought I had gone mad. What an abominable crimes could
these women and children have committed to deserve such a cruel death?
...Five minutes later, the doors were opened. Like and avalanche, the
bodies, heaped together and contorted, fell out...." (_Technique_, p.470.)


Ho"ss? Nope. He wrote, "I can state that about one-third died immediately.
The remainder staggered about and began to scream and struggle for air.
The screaming, however, soon changed to gasping and in a few moments
everyone lay still. After twenty minutes at the most no movement could be
detected." (_Death Dealer_, p. 44.) 

How about Broad? Nope. He wrote, "...Grabner looked with the interest of a
scientist upon the second hand of his wrist watch. Cyclon acted swiftly.
It consisted of cyanide hydrogen in solid form. As soon as the tin was
emptied, the prussic acid escaped from the granules. One of the men, who
participated in the bestial gassing, could not refrain from lifting, for a
fraction of a second, the cover of one of the vents and from spitting into
the hall. Some two minutes later the screams became less loud and only an
indestinct groaning was heard. The majority of the gassed had already
lossed their consciousness. Two minutes more and Grabner stopped looking
at his watch. There was complete silence...." (_KL Auschwitz_, p.176.) 

> Get it together Mark.  The door is opened after 1/2 hour, not 20 minutes. 

Nyiszli wrote, "Twenty minutes later the electric ventilators set going in
order to evacuate the gas." (_Auschwitz_, p.51.)

Ho"ss wrote, "The door was opened a half hour after the gas was thrown in
and the ventilation system turned on." (_Death Dealer_, p.44). 

Dr. Bendel wrote, "Five minutes later, the doors were opened. Like and
avalanche, the bodies, heaped together and contorted, fell out...."
(_Technique_, p.470.) 

The interesting thing here is that Dr. Bendel's account here was in
regards to Krema V. Initially, Krema V had no mechanical ventilation
system and, because its gas chambers were above ground, relied on opening
the (exterior) doors of the gas chambers to let the natural draft to
ventilate them. Evidently they were opened _five_ minutes after the Zyklon
B was administered. 

The central thesis of Pressac's argument here was that it made no sense to
_wait_ twenty minutes to start the ventilation system after the victims
were killed (within 5 minutes or so). Dr. Bendel's testimony supports
Pressac's thesis in that _because_ there was no venitlator, whose _motors_
were tucked away in the attic and couldn't be heard in the basement, the
_doors_ of the gas chamber were opened AS SOON AS THE VICTIMS WERE DEAD. A
queue that signified the gassing was over. A visual queue that could
hardly have been missed- unlike the aural queue of the sound of the
ventilation system. 

What Pressac argues is that the venitlation system was turned on no more
than ten minutes or so after the Zyklon B was administered. Then the gas
chamber was aired for 20 or 30 minutes and the door then opened (while the
venilattion system was still on). Given that Neither Ho"ss nor Nyislzi
could here the ventilation system when the gas-tight door was closed, they
didn't realize that it was turned on soon after the Zyklon B was
administered. They heard the ventilation system when the gas-tight door
was opened 20 or 30 minutes later and simply _assumed_ that was when it
was turned on. 

"Get it together" indeed! Perhaps _you_ could "get it together,"
Ehrlich606? You can start by pulling your foot out of your mouth. 

[snip]

> Now there is another problem here.  Where is the gas escaping to?  Not out
> the *little chimneys* I hope, because they have concrete lids on them to
> prevent gas from escaping.  So how is the gas blown out?  Through what
> openings?  The same ones the gas was put in?  Have the SS taken the little
> prisms up yet?

The ventilation system for L.Keller exhausted the HCN-laden air from vents
on the roof of the Krema. (cf. _Anatomy_, p.166). As for removing the
spent (or nearly spent) Zyklon B you should remember, Ehrlich606, that
when the holzblenden would have been reomoved the ventilation system would
have been turned on. rather than HCN gas escaping, fresh air would be
sucked into the gas chamber. Try this the following experimet: Cut a bunch
of holes in a box. cover most of them up with tape. Stick a vacauum
cleaner hose in one end and turn on the vacuum cleaner. Untape a couple of
holes and feel the air being sucked in through them.  Same general idea in
the gas chamber. 

Please do try and keep to up here, Ehrlich606. 

> >> The other reason why this becomes an issue is because of the relatively
> >> low (top out at 7.9 mg/kg) of cyanide compounds in Krema II, especially
> >> when compared to the delousing chambers.  
> >
> >Please elaborate. Are you suggesting that using ZYklon B for the
> >disinfection of clothes, which was done at high HCN concentrations 
> >for _hours_ would _not_ produce higher traces of HCN in the delousing
> >chambers than it would in the jhomicidal gas chambers which were 
> >exposed to HCN for tens of minutes? Is this, perchance, another one 
> >of your denier "problems?" Should I get your horse for this one too? 
> 
> Judging by your responses I think you have had far too much time with my
> horse as it is.

Hardly. You've given the poor bestie such a "workout" he ready's for the
glue factory! Do be gentler with your next pet. 

> >> The argument here is also that the induction and extraction of gas was
> >> done promptly, the gas was ventilated quickly, and therefore the cyanide
> >> compounds are low. I don't find that impossible in theory.
> >
> >How comforting. How gracious of you. :-/
> 
> You are welcome, I am sure. :)

Indeed. Such an "obliging" soul you are. Too bad you keep riding off into
the sunset- before the final act -all the time....

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Aug  3 07:04:29 PDT 1996
Article: 55061 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.infi.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-chi-13.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-chi-8.sprintlink.net!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The THE himself
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 22:53:56 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 23
Message-ID: 
References: <4ssdcq$9gu@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <21JUL199608081023@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4suq4e$cn1@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <21JUL199621481917@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4t308d$po@bell.maths.tcd.ie>
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In article <4t308d$po@bell.maths.tcd.ie>, dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote:

> dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) writes:
> >    Oh, don't thank me, thank Giwer.  He clearly does much more than anyone
> >    else to promote contributions to Nizkor.  If I didn't know better, I'd
> >    assume he was a plant.

Insulting plants now are we? First it was nematodes, then paramecium, then
bacilli. And now, having given up on the Animal Kindom for comaprisons,
you insult plants! Such nerve. };-> 

I, on the other hand, compared the Troll to whale shit at the bottom of
the ocean.... 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Aug  4 21:51:36 PDT 1996
Article: 55329 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.reed.edu!camelot.ccs.neu.edu!nntp.neu.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!bone.think.com!blanket.mitre.org!agate!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: FREE SPEECH - A Matter of Philosophy, Not Law.
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 02:20:16 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 20
Message-ID: 
References: <4sfh09$q15@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4skamp$5gr@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4su5v1$f04@access5.digex.net> <4sutfm$eos@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4t10as$6ki@access5.digex.net>
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In article <4t10as$6ki@access5.digex.net>, mstein@access5.digex.net
(Michael P. Stein) wrote:

[snip[

> I have told Mr. Giwer what he needs to do to get people to stop
> calling him a lying troll.  He does not pay attention.


Probably because he has a severe attention deficit disorder.... 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Aug  4 21:51:38 PDT 1996
Article: 55330 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.reed.edu!camelot.ccs.neu.edu!nntp.neu.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!bone.think.com!blanket.mitre.org!agate!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi139.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 02:33:23 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
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References: 
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In article
,
rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU wrote:

[snip]

> So ,is it possible that zyklon _with_ the irritant might have been used on
> occasion for murder? 

I think it is likely that the initial "experiment(s)" in Block 11 were
done with Zyklon B that included the lachrymal. Probably the initial
gassings in Krema I as well. 


Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Aug  5 07:27:59 PDT 1996
Article: 85024 of control
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
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Control: cancel 
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cancel 


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Aug  5 07:28:01 PDT 1996
Article: 85342 of control
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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cancel 


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug  7 13:28:06 PDT 1996
Article: 55652 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 09:15:51 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 24
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References:  <4u1rrs$p72@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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In article <4u1rrs$p72@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, dvdthomas@aol.com
(DvdThomas) wrote:

> Sara writes:
> 
> >As for being a fool, you're right. Someone who can't figure out how to
> >restrict followups, or how to set what newsgroups he posts to, IS a fool.
> > 
> >Sara
> 
> Given the choice of being a fool or an intolerant geek, I'll go with the
> former.

Now _that_ was self-evident. 

Marl

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug  7 13:28:07 PDT 1996
Article: 55698 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!News1.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklon B: Kieselguhr & Gypsum
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 16:54:26 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 97
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References: <4u4bna$n2n@hades.rz.uni-sb.de> <4u4veq$t02@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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In article <4u4veq$t02@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, dvdthomas@aol.com
(DvdThomas) wrote:

> Stefan Schneider wrote to Tom Moran:
> 
> >>The carrier would have lot to do with any release rate. Just for
> >>example, if we should pour equal amounts of, say, water and say,
> >>benzine out on a metal sheet, the benzine would evaporate faster. The
> >>composition of the solid vehicle, pellets, would have something to do
> >>with it also. The density of the solid would be the most determining
> >>factor.
> >
> >Actually, the density of the solid has no influence whatsoever on release
> >times. To use your example: The faster evaporation of the benzine when 
> >poured on a metal sheet is due to the high thermal conductivity of
> >metals. And the evaporation of the water will be increased on a metal sheet 
> >as well
> 
> I believe the first writer was using sheet metal simply to indicate a
> non-porous surface.... 

A wonderful display of specious expo facto "reasoning." Moran made no such
qualifications to indicate he was discussing _porosity_. To suggest such
when he _explicity_ stated that "the density of the solid would be the
most determining factor" is pure editorialization on your part. 

> ...By "faster evaporation" he meant only that benzene
> evaporates faster than water in similar circumstances.  The observation
> about high thermal conductivity of metals has nothing to do with the
> relative rates of evaporation.  But it sounds nice.

This would certainly be true if it is given that the temperature of the
metal sheet remained constant. On the other hand, given a finite amount of
heat energy and that the metal sheet would cool due to heat loss to the
evaporating water and benzine, the comparitive physical properties (i.e.
heat capacity, heat of vaporization, vapor pressure, etc.) of water and
benzine would certainly need to be taken into account along with the
thermal conductivity of the metal sheet. 

> >Actually, the density of the solid has no influence whatsoever on release
> >times.
> 
> You then go on to give an example of activated carbon, which, in addition
> to being porous has a physical affinity for the HCN.  

And? Mr. Schneider's point was rather clear. Whether one uses a sheet of
aluminum or a sheet of lead, the evaporation rate of water and benzine
would be independant of the metal's density. It has, however, everything
to do with the _temperature_ of the metal sheet. 

> Drop out the physical affinity and consider only porosity and yes there is 
> still an effect on the evaporation rate.  

Drop out the "physical affinity" of avtivated carbon? And how does one go
about doing that, considering that said "physical affinity" is the
adsorbative property of activated carbon? A property which has much to do
with the surface area (i.e. the porosity) of activated carbon.... 

> It has to do with reduction in surface area.  That was the whole purpose of 
> absorbing and adsorbing HCN into  the carrier material--to slow the 
> evaporation rate.  

Considering that silica gel can have a large surface area (approximately
300 m2/g), to then suggest that the purpose of using silica gel carrier
for Zyklon B was to slow the evaporation rate of HCN by _reducing_ the
surface area of the adsorbant, appears to be a rather specious argument.
Especially so when one considers, for example, the surface area of a 1 m x
1m x 1 cm "metal sheet" compared to the surface area of 1 m x 1 m x 1 cm
of silica gel. 

> Otherwise it would have been far simpler just to sprinkle some drops of HCN 
> throughout the facility, or to drop some crystals of a cyanide salt into
small 
> containers of acid.  The disadvantage of both these techniques is the rapid
> conversion of liquid HCN to gas.  Speed is not conducive to either safety
> or efficiency in fumigation.

Given that the evaporation of HCN from Zyklon B was extremely fast, this
too is a specious argument. More so when considering the handling,
storage, and transport hazards involving quantities of liquid HCN. It also
needs to be remembered that Eichmann required that the delivery system of
the homicidal agent into gas chambers at Auschwitz not be overly complex.
(This was one reason why the homicidal CO2 system used the T4 program was
rejected.) One can easily argue that a KCN/H2SO4 delivery system for would
be equally as complicated compared to using Zyklon B. 

[snip]

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug  7 13:28:08 PDT 1996
Article: 55708 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: Giwer is a moron beyond words... (was McVay, never a Marine...)
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 20:46:44 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
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References: <4tcovo$s2r@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>  <4thntc$qv5@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4tlkgj$b3l@shiva.usa.net> <4tnbcq$e0o@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>  <4tpm2e$adq@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <320220D0.1D73@gryn.org> <4u1h8g$b15@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>  <3207D192.CF7@unb.ca>
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In article <3207D192.CF7@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison  wrote:

> schwartz@infinet.com wrote:
> > 
> > In article <4u1h8g$b15@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
> > (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
> > 
> > >         Parliament does not apply in the US and never will.  We are armed.
> > 
> > Is this the Mr. Giwer who never makes threats?
> 
> Nah, it's the Mr Giwer who tries to use a gun as a phallic symbol to
> replace his lack of testes when it comes to facing up to his errors.


Does that mean he shoots blanks? 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug  7 13:28:09 PDT 1996
Article: 55709 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dachau Gas Chamber
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 17:38:25 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 68
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References: <4u6rdf$t3l@juliana.sprynet.com>
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In article <4u6rdf$t3l@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

> There was another pathologist with a differing opinion.  
> Connsult Greg Raven's site for details.  They can't 
> both be right can they?

Indeed not. That "other" pathologist was Dr. Larson himself! When one
bothers to actually check _Crime Doctor_, where Dr. Larson relates his
accounts regarding the liberation of the concentration camps- especially
Dachau -one (unsuprisingly) finds that Mr. O'Keefe, the author of "The
'liberation of the camps': Facts vs. lies," to put it bluntly, lied. 


For example, Mr. O'Keefe writes:

"...Dr. Larson, who told his biographer that to his knowledge he "was the
only forensic pathologist on duty in the entire European Theater," (note
3) informed Wichita Eagle reporter Jan Floerchinger that "never was a case
of poison gas uncovered." (note 4)"

Source: http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg/pamphlets/camps.html


How odd. According to Dr. Larson:

"The majority died of natural diseases of one kind or the another.
However, we did probe into such questions as, 'What happened to those
prisoners who became psychotic at Dachau? What did the Gestapo do with
them?' Well, they took those people to the crematorium. First, however,
they were taken to a big windowless building next to the crematorium where
the ceiling was covered with false shower heads. The victims were then
ordered to strip and take a 'shower.' Outside the building, guards dropped
in cyanide pellets. Then they'd blow the cyanide gas out and remove the
bodies next door to the crematorium ovens. I think this is what happened
to most of the truly psychotic prisoners and those they considered unruly
and unmanageable and who, in the Gestapo's opinion, were incorrigibles.
But, in my opinion, only relatively few of the inmates I personally
examined at Dachau were murdered in this manner. Still, medical facilities
were totally inadequate. When people fell hopelessly ill and death was
imminent, and when they grew so weak they could no longer work or
function, they were taken to the cyanide room for disposal. The Nazi
called them 'mercy killings' because there was no hope of them getting
well. Actually, the Germans considered them a liability, and extermination
was the answer." (_Crime Doctor_, p.61.)

I do believe this is called lying. The fact is that Dr. Larson _clearly_
intimates that prisoners in Dachau _were_ killed with cyanide gas and Mr.
O'Keefe states otherwise. In fact, by Dr. Larsen's statement: "...in my
opinion, only relatively few of the inmates I personally examined at
Dachau were murdered in this manner" it is implicit that Dr. Larson, in
his capacity as a U.S. Army _forensic_ pathologist (the only in Europe,
lest we forget), _determined_ that prisoners had died from cyanide
poisoning. 

Yes, Mr. O'Keefe lied. It is there in black and white for all to see.
Those who wish to see the truth that is.  

Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug  7 13:28:10 PDT 1996
Article: 55710 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.texas.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dachau Gas Chamber
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 20:36:26 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 113
Message-ID: 
References:  <4u8uur$t03@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi146.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4u8uur$t03@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
(Ehrlich606) wrote:

> In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
> (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
> 
> >
> >In article <4u6rdf$t3l@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
> >
> >> There was another pathologist with a differing opinion.  
> >> Connsult Greg Raven's site for details.  They can't 
> >> both be right can they?
> >
> >Indeed not. That "other" pathologist was Dr. Larson himself! When one
> >bothers to actually check _Crime Doctor_, where Dr. Larson relates his
> >accounts regarding the liberation of the concentration camps- especially
> >Dachau -one (unsuprisingly) finds that Mr. O'Keefe, the author of "The
> >'liberation of the camps': Facts vs. lies," to put it bluntly, lied. 
> >
> >
> >For example, Mr. O'Keefe writes:
> >
> >"...Dr. Larson, who told his biographer that to his knowledge he "was the
> >only forensic pathologist on duty in the entire European Theater," (note
> >3) informed Wichita Eagle reporter Jan Floerchinger that "never was a
> case
> >of poison gas uncovered." (note 4)"
> >
> >Source: http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg/pamphlets/camps.html
> >
> >
> >How odd. According to Dr. Larson:
> >
> >"The majority died of natural diseases of one kind or the another.
> >However, we did probe into such questions as, 'What happened to those
> >prisoners who became psychotic at Dachau? What did the Gestapo do with
> >them?' Well, they took those people to the crematorium. First, however,
> >they were taken to a big windowless building next to the crematorium
> where
> >the ceiling was covered with false shower heads. The victims were then
> >ordered to strip and take a 'shower.' Outside the building, guards
> dropped
> >in cyanide pellets. Then they'd blow the cyanide gas out and remove the
> >bodies next door to the crematorium ovens. I think this is what happened
> >to most of the truly psychotic prisoners and those they considered unruly
> >and unmanageable and who, in the Gestapo's opinion, were incorrigibles.
> >But, in my opinion, only relatively few of the inmates I personally
> >examined at Dachau were murdered in this manner. Still, medical
> facilities
> >were totally inadequate. When people fell hopelessly ill and death was
> >imminent, and when they grew so weak they could no longer work or
> >function, they were taken to the cyanide room for disposal. The Nazi
> >called them 'mercy killings' because there was no hope of them getting
> >well. Actually, the Germans considered them a liability, and
> extermination
> >was the answer." (_Crime Doctor_, p.61.)
> >
> >I do believe this is called lying. The fact is that Dr. Larson _clearly_
> >intimates that prisoners in Dachau _were_ killed with cyanide gas and Mr.
> >O'Keefe states otherwise. In fact, by Dr. Larsen's statement: "...in my
> >opinion, only relatively few of the inmates I personally examined at
> >Dachau were murdered in this manner" it is implicit that Dr. Larson, in
> >his capacity as a U.S. Army _forensic_ pathologist (the only in Europe,
> >lest we forget), _determined_ that prisoners had died from cyanide
> >poisoning. 
> >
> >Yes, Mr. O'Keefe lied. It is there in black and white for all to see.
> >Those who wish to see the truth that is.  
> 
> There you go again.  There is no *lie* here, because Mr. Keefe references
> the reporter of the Wichita Eagle.  That is the source to check in the
> first instance.  

I see. Then you think quoting Dr. Larsen for something that has been
previously shown not to be the case is _not_ lying? Whether by commision
or _omission_? You _excuse_ this behavior when, in fact, it can be shown
relatively easily, given a modicum of effort (i.e. requesting Dr. Larsen's
book on inter-library loan from a public library), that Dr. Larson, in
fact, relates just the opposite? 

Such (low) standards of "journalism" you condone! Unsuprising, really. 

> Second, *implicit* is not equivalent to *statement*.  The
> Doctor says *I think this is what happened ...* and he says *in my
> opinion, only relatively few of the inmates I personally examined were
> murdered in this manner.* which could mean either that he accepts that
> there were gassings but personally found no evidence of it, or it could
> mean that there were a finite number that he found who had been gassed. 

Now, _you_ are being rather silly here. A forensic pathologist (a rather
good one too, evidently) states, in his opinion as a forensic pathologist-
an opinion that generally carries great weight in a court of law as an
expert witness, that "relatively few" prisoners he "personally examined"
were murdered with cyanide (i.e. Zyklon B) and you do backlflips to
construe this to mean he "personally found no evidence" that prisoners
were murdered with cyanide? 

And perhaps next you will insist black is white and white is black? 

Please, go pedal your crackpot excuses to the mentally infirm- like your
pal the Troll. 

[pathetic drivel snipped.] 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug  7 13:28:11 PDT 1996
Article: 55711 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.texas.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 20:39:37 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 53
Message-ID: 
References:  <4tqqs7$6nn@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <320757c6.419451247@news.zilker.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi146.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <320757c6.419451247@news.zilker.net>, mike@aimetering.com (Mike
Curtis) wrote:

> ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:
> 
> >In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
> >(Mark Van Alstine) writes:
> >
> >>
> >>> Reason why those black things ain't l'il chimneys:
> >>> 
> >>> 1)  They are too tall to be little anythings.
> >>
> >>And what makes you think this? How tall do you think these ersatz "rolls
> >>of tar paper" in the photo are? Please enumerate your assumptions. 
> >
> >OK, click up the picture.  We can see the edge of the Krema above ground,
> >and we know that it is 25 feet 4 inches in width (the length, receding in
> >the photo, is 98 feet something).  Now there are two things self-evident
> >to me in the picture.  The first things is that these black things are not
> >down the center line.  This is not obvious because the LK in the photo is
> >slightly canted.  But the three things I see look to be about 3/4 of the
> >way over towards the left side.  Furthermore, I am not sure that they are
> >even in line (this might be another reason for the variable width).
> >
> >The second thing is that, using the 25'4" as a bench mark, we can estimate
> >the height and width of the black things.  Just eyeballing it, I would say
> >about 4 feet high and 1 foot wide.  Sounds like a roll of tar paper to me.
> > OTOH, does not sound like a little chimney that is supposed to cover an
> >opening about 3 feet wide.  So there is that, and there is the fact that
> >they are not centered.
> >
> >Beyond that there is the fact that there is a discussion about completing
> >the roof of the Krema.  And so tar paper is a logical conclusion to me.
> >
> 
> Ehrlich606 is too scared to reply, but they look like shade on the
> side of square little chimneys. But then I was able to view the
> original this weekend. :-) 

Indeed! Hee hee.... ;-)

Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug  7 13:28:11 PDT 1996
Article: 55720 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Tom Moran's Forgery
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 13:58:09 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 35
Distribution: World
Message-ID: 
References:  <32002e88.3393156@news.pacificnet.net>   <4u2g8i$781@shiva.usa.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi146.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4u2g8i$781@shiva.usa.net>, hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

[snip]

> If Mr. Moran's vanity were not greater than his honesty, he would
> have apologized for his mistake, explaining that it was not
> intentional, and promise to do better next time.  Instead, he
> blubbers and blusters about how he is under unfair attack -- that the
> satirical nature of his interpolations ought to have been apparent
> even without specific disclaimers.  And that is true.  What Mr. Moran
> inserted was so absurd that only the weak minded -- like Mr. Moran
> himself -- could have given it any credence.  Nevertheless, there are
> confused readers lurking in this newsgroup, and it is for their
> benefit that Mr. Moran needs to learn this lesson.

Moran has not only skipped this lesson, but has compounded the
self-evidence of his lack of integrity by posting similar
"interpolations." This can be readily seen by examining:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/intellectual-depravity

...Where Moran intentionally misrepresents and attributes outright
fabrications to Hilberg's _Destruction_. 

Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug  7 13:28:12 PDT 1996
Article: 55727 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!News1.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 19:33:10 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 52
Message-ID: 
References:  <4tqqs7$6nn@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi146.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4tqqs7$6nn@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
(Ehrlich606) wrote:

> In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
> (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
> 
> >
> >> Reason why those black things ain't l'il chimneys:
> >> 
> >> 1)  They are too tall to be little anythings.
> >
> >And what makes you think this? How tall do you think these ersatz "rolls
> >of tar paper" in the photo are? Please enumerate your assumptions. 
> 
> OK, click up the picture.  We can see the edge of the Krema above ground,
> and we know that it is 25 feet 4 inches in width (the length, receding in
> the photo, is 98 feet something).  Now there are two things self-evident
> to me in the picture.  The first things is that these black things are not
> down the center line.  This is not obvious because the LK in the photo is
> slightly canted.  But the three things I see look to be about 3/4 of the
> way over towards the left side.  Furthermore, I am not sure that they are
> even in line (this might be another reason for the variable width).

Do you know what shadows are? What a box, obliquely viewed, with one side
in shadow looks like? 

> The second thing is that, using the 25'4" as a bench mark, we can estimate
> the height and width of the black things.  Just eyeballing it, I would say
> about 4 feet high and 1 foot wide.  Sounds like a roll of tar paper to me.
>  OTOH, does not sound like a little chimney that is supposed to cover an
> opening about 3 feet wide.  So there is that, and there is the fact that
> they are not centered.

Do you know what shadows are? What a box, obliquely viewed, with one side
in shadow looks like? 

> Beyond that there is the fact that there is a discussion about completing
> the roof of the Krema.  And so tar paper is a logical conclusion to me.

A fallacious assumption on your part. The construction of the roofs of the
L.Kellers were completed sometime before the photo showing the three
"little chimneys" was taken. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug  7 13:28:13 PDT 1996
Article: 55748 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 12:50:31 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 47
Message-ID: 
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com>   <4tke3r$era@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <4tmcnp$60v@access1.digex.net> <4tn81d$21h@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <320135B3.2B0E@unb.ca> <4tuvr7$ga4@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <3204EF5B.4C89@unb.ca> <32050A0A.63CE@unb.ca> <4u3ce6$197@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <3206148B.65D5@unb.ca> <32062008.5AE8@unb.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi146.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32062008.5AE8@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison  wrote:

> Keith Morrison wrote:
> 
> > Yes indeed this is not true in real life due to boundary effects as a
> > stream does not exhibit perfect laminar flow.  However, this 1 m/s
> > lifting velocity, if you were paying attention, is for a 1 cm piece
> > of quartz.  Quartz has a specific gravity of about 2.7.
> > 
> > What is the specific gravity of ash, Mr Giwer?  Someone less than
> > 2.7, no?
> 
> As a matter of fact, it is no.  I correct myself.  The specific gravity
> of apatite (calcium phosphate) is 3.1  This makes a bone fragment
> heavier than a quartz fragment of the same size and porosity.  However,
> the arguments below still stand.

I think further consideration is needed here. Bone is mainly a
biocomposite of hydroxyapatite and collogen.  Hydroxyapatite, the main
mineral component of bone, comprises about 1/4 the volume and 1/2 the mass
of normal adult bone and is deposited along the bone collagen fibrils.
Given this, it would suggest that bone should have a lower specific
gravity, due to the porous bone matrix, than pure hydroxyapatite. 

This assumption appears to be borne out by the fact that bone (Cancelllus
and Cortical) has a specific gravity of 1.3.

Furthermore, when bone is calcinated only the hydroxyapatite remains in
the bone matrix, thus suggesting that the specific gravity of calcinated
bone should be even less. Therefore, considering that the calcinated bones
of the victims were crushed to fine fragments (less than 2/5 inches) would
seem to suggest that they were more readily disturbed by the lifting
velocity effect of the Vistula's current than you may have assumed above.

[snip]

Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug  7 13:28:14 PDT 1996
Article: 55758 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: auschwitz:myths and facts
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 17:08:55 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 47
Message-ID: 
References: <4tuuee$5k2@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4u2kka$255@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi146.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4u2kka$255@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
(Ehrlich606) wrote:

> In article <4tuuee$5k2@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com the
Troll > drooled:
> 
> >
> >On 2 Aug 1996 08:59:42 GMT, patchwgl@infinop.com (Gary) wrote:
> >
> >>On 7/30/96 at 22:11, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com the Troll blathered: 
> >
> >>[snip]
> >
> >>>They are ventilated with heated air, just like the Degesh 
> >>>delousing chambers were.  It is very old technology.
> 
> How could they be ventilated with heated air?  The last word I got from
> MVA is that the air was sucked into the chamber directly from the outside.
> That means the air sucked in would have been the outside temperature.

Indeed. The gas chambers of Krema II and III were ventilated with outside
air. During the _summer_ when the outside air temperature was _higher_
than the temperature in the gas chambers. Ergo, the gas chambers were
preheated. (During the winter the gas chambers were preheated with buckets
of red-hot coke.) 

> >>Not as old as the "technology" of a mammalian (i.e., warm-blooded) 
> >>body.  A full gassing chamber would have a large heating component 
> >>present in the fresh corpses.
> >
> > You need to learn something about turbulent mixing some day.  It
> > will be good for you.  

And the Troll needs to learn something about the construction and
operation of gas chambers of Auschwitz some day. Not only would it be good
for him, it would be a blessing for the rest of us. Assuming, of course,
that the Troll's endless drivel would lessen even a bit. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug  7 13:28:14 PDT 1996
Article: 55771 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!tezcat.com!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!news.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!ames!usenet.kornet.nm.kr!news.postech.ac.kr!news.kreonet.re.kr!news.dacom.co.kr!arclight.uoregon.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 19:52:48 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 46
Message-ID: 
References: <4tmfhf$e12@newsbf02.news.aol.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi146.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article ,
jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

> ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:
> 
> > Reasons why the boxes are not rolls of tar paper, or some other roofing
> > element either for the roof of the Krema or other part of the building,
> > which is what they look like, and which is what I have seen on roofing
> > jobs since I was a little boy:
> > 
> > NONE
> 
> Why would anyone have stood rolls of tar paper, or felt, or whatever it
> is, up on end?
> 
> Someone else postulated that it was to protect it from the snow on the
> surface of the roof.  Why would you want one entire long edge of your
> felt wetted by snow as opposed to one short strip that could easily be
> cut off?

Indeed. Why would it make a difference at all? bitumous felt is pretty
much waterproof.... 

> Furthermore, Andrew Allen (Ceacaa) tells us that tar paper, or felt, or
> whatever Mark Van Alstine's speculation was, was not necessary at that
> point.  You'll have to argue that out with him, I'm afraid.

Actually, I wasn't speculating. I was being derisive. The idea that the
shadowed faces of the "little chimneys" are rolls of bitumous felt (i.e.
tar paper) is simply absurd. Which is why I made my comment. I find it
pathetic that Ehrlich606, for instance, grasps at such straws with
apparant abandon. Equally pathetic is Mr. Allen's cavalier flip-flopping
with his explination-of-the moment regarding the "little chimneys" in his
futile attempt to escape the facts. 

[snip]

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug  7 13:28:15 PDT 1996
Article: 55772 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!tezcat.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-chi-8.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-3.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!news.sgi.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 19:24:01 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 41
Message-ID: 
References:  <4tqqo6$6m5@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi146.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4tqqo6$6m5@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
(Ehrlich606) wrote:

[snip]

> It still comes down to the fact that P is using the testimony concerning
> the operation of one type of Krema to characterize the operation in
> another type of Krema....  

Are you suggesting that Zklon B had different physical properties when
used in Krema II as opposed to Krema V? That people, when confined in gas
chambers and exposed to equivelent concentrations of HCN, _didn't_ die in
similar amounts of time? 

> ...That is not proof.  I have still not seen any proof that the fans would 
> kick in after 5 minutes other than the fact that you and P are obviously 
> committed to this notion.

Indeed no _proof_ (i.e. hard evidence) has been offered. No claims of such
were made. What _was_ offered was an _explination_, supported by
circumstantial evidence and induction, to why it made little sense to wait
as long as indicated by Ho"ss or Nysizli for the ventilation of the gas
chamber to commence. 

You may accept the  explination given or not. I have no real problem with
that. However, I should point out that _you_, Ehrlich606, haven't
addressed the explination on its merits (or lack thereof) but simply (and
dogmatically) click your heels three times and say  "No proof. No proof.
No proof." 

What was that you were saying about being "committed" to "notions?" Hmmm? 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug  7 13:28:16 PDT 1996
Article: 55778 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!news.dra.com!news.goodnet.com!nntp.wwwi.com!News1.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 19:25:34 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 32
Message-ID: 
References:  <4tqqo6$6m5@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4tr4tq$s4f@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU>
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In article <4tr4tq$s4f@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU>, rjg@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU
(Richard J. Green) wrote:

> In article <4tqqo6$6m5@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
> Ehrlich606  wrote:
> 
> >It still comes down to the fact that P is using the testimony concerning
> >the operation of one type of Krema to characterize the operation in
> >another type of Krema.  That is not proof.  I have still not seen any
> >proof that the fans would kick in after 5 minutes other than the fact that
> >you and P are obviously committed to this notion.
> 
> Mr. Ehrlich clearly accused Pressac of fabrication.

Yes, he did. 

> Mr. Van Alstine clearly showed that Pressac was not guilty of
> fabrication.

Yes, I do believe I did. 

And where, exactly, does that leave Ehrlich606? 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug  7 13:28:16 PDT 1996
Article: 55782 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 19:59:55 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 62
Message-ID: 
References:  <4to6pt$4na@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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In article <4to6pt$4na@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
(Ehrlich606) wrote:

> In article ,
> jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) writes:
> 
> >
> >ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:
> >
> >> Reasons why the boxes are not rolls of tar paper, or some other roofing
> >> element either for the roof of the Krema or other part of the building,
> >> which is what they look like, and which is what I have seen on roofing
> >> jobs since I was a little boy:
> >> 
> >> NONE
> >
> >Why would anyone have stood rolls of tar paper, or felt, or whatever it
> >is, up on end?
> >
> >Someone else postulated that it was to protect it from the snow on the
> >surface of the roof.  Why would you want one entire long edge of your
> >felt wetted by snow as opposed to one short strip that could easily be
> >cut off?
> >
> >Furthermore, Andrew Allen (Ceacaa) tells us that tar paper, or felt, or
> >whatever Mark Van Alstine's speculation was, was not necessary at that
> >point.  You'll have to argue that out with him, I'm afraid.
> >
> >
> 
> The roofing felt was set on end to make it easier to measure and lay. 
> Whether or not the bituminous felt gets wet in the application is not the
> issue.  The issue is that it would be a major nuisance to have to pick up
> a roll of tar paper lying in the snow.

And where, exactly, was this bitoumous felt to be laid? On the roof of the
L.Keller? Nope. The bitumous felt "damp proofing" used in the roofs of the
L.Kellers was sandwiched _between_ layers of concrete in their roofs. This
had been done _prior_, as is evidenced by the completed roofs in the
picture (as well as in Bauleitung memoranda), to when the photo was taken.


> I am convinced that the stuff is tar paper, or possibly some other roofing
> element in a roll.  But all I am going on is the photo.  Since the
> alternate explanations -- so far -- have problems as I enumerated, and
> since three off center chimneys do not prove four in line induction vents,
> thereby making the resolution of this point irrelevant to gassings or
> non-gassings, I see no point in arguing about it.

Simply fallacious and/or incomplete assumptions on your part. You
certainly, to put the shoe on the other foot, have offered no _proof_ to
support your "tar paper theory."

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug  7 13:51:04 PDT 1996
Article: 26841 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: Giwer is a moron beyond words... (was McVay, never a Marine...)
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 20:46:44 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 26
Message-ID: 
References: <4tcovo$s2r@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>  <4thntc$qv5@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4tlkgj$b3l@shiva.usa.net> <4tnbcq$e0o@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>  <4tpm2e$adq@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <320220D0.1D73@gryn.org> <4u1h8g$b15@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>  <3207D192.CF7@unb.ca>
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In article <3207D192.CF7@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison  wrote:

> schwartz@infinet.com wrote:
> > 
> > In article <4u1h8g$b15@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
> > (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
> > 
> > >         Parliament does not apply in the US and never will.  We are armed.
> > 
> > Is this the Mr. Giwer who never makes threats?
> 
> Nah, it's the Mr Giwer who tries to use a gun as a phallic symbol to
> replace his lack of testes when it comes to facing up to his errors.


Does that mean he shoots blanks? 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug  7 14:02:10 PDT 1996
Article: 38411 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: Giwer is a moron beyond words... (was McVay, never a Marine...)
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 20:46:44 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 26
Message-ID: 
References: <4tcovo$s2r@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>  <4thntc$qv5@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4tlkgj$b3l@shiva.usa.net> <4tnbcq$e0o@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>  <4tpm2e$adq@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <320220D0.1D73@gryn.org> <4u1h8g$b15@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>  <3207D192.CF7@unb.ca>
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In article <3207D192.CF7@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison  wrote:

> schwartz@infinet.com wrote:
> > 
> > In article <4u1h8g$b15@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
> > (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
> > 
> > >         Parliament does not apply in the US and never will.  We are armed.
> > 
> > Is this the Mr. Giwer who never makes threats?
> 
> Nah, it's the Mr Giwer who tries to use a gun as a phallic symbol to
> replace his lack of testes when it comes to facing up to his errors.


Does that mean he shoots blanks? 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug  7 14:29:04 PDT 1996
Article: 34163 of alt.skinheads
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: Giwer is a moron beyond words... (was McVay, never a Marine...)
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 20:46:44 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 26
Message-ID: 
References: <4tcovo$s2r@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>  <4thntc$qv5@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4tlkgj$b3l@shiva.usa.net> <4tnbcq$e0o@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>  <4tpm2e$adq@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <320220D0.1D73@gryn.org> <4u1h8g$b15@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>  <3207D192.CF7@unb.ca>
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In article <3207D192.CF7@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison  wrote:

> schwartz@infinet.com wrote:
> > 
> > In article <4u1h8g$b15@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
> > (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
> > 
> > >         Parliament does not apply in the US and never will.  We are armed.
> > 
> > Is this the Mr. Giwer who never makes threats?
> 
> Nah, it's the Mr Giwer who tries to use a gun as a phallic symbol to
> replace his lack of testes when it comes to facing up to his errors.


Does that mean he shoots blanks? 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Aug  8 07:43:09 PDT 1996
Article: 55839 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!news.sgi.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is, and what ain't
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 13:18:32 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 65
Message-ID: 
References: <31f78739.5257640@news.pacificnet.net>  <3200da43.5894331@news.pacificnet.net>  <3208c2f0.6272105@news.pacificnet.net>
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In article <3208c2f0.6272105@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) wrote:

> mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
> >I take it you mean by "aechological [sic] evidence" the flues? It is
> >rather self-evident, considering that the construction plans clearly
> >indicated they were underground, and that eywtiness testimony indicated
> >that they were underground, that they were indeed underground. 
> 
> I challenged, where is the "archeological evidence", and
> VanAlstine responds with "construction plans" and "eyewitness
> testimony".

Indeed. And you have shown no reason to _not_ accept the construction
plans of the Kremas, eyewitness testimony, and Bauleitung memoranda. 

> >But if you claim that they were _not_ underground just exactly where _do_
> >you claim they were? Please be specific in citing your sources for such an
> >assumption.
> 
> Where exactly can you point to where you get the notion I make an
> "assumption" they weren't underground?

"If" you moron. I said "if you claim." You are making many (unsound)
assumptions of late. I simplyu wish to clarify them to better understand
what you are trying to say in your obtuse Moranic(tm) way. 

> I didn't "claim" anything about them being above ground or below
> ground. I cited Holocaust claims. We're talking Holocaust claims now.

No, we are talking about your obtuse assumptions and silly drivel. 

> But while we're here, I say there were no underground flue
> systems.... 

A claim! Good. Now please back up your claim with evidence. Please cite
all reference material used to support your claim that "there were no
underground flue systems."

> ...I say any exhausting system for the buildings oven chamber
> was the chimney draft at the one and only oven, which would be located
> in the ell, right at the proximate of the chimney itself....

Another claim! Wow. Now please back up your claim with evidence. Please
cite all reference material used to support this claim.

> I also say there is no underground flue system, which should be
> there, to this day....

A duplicate claim of "there were no underground flue systems." 
Irregardless, please back up your claim with evidence. Please cite all
reference material used to support this claim that "there is no
underground flue system, which should be there, to this day." 

[Moranic(tm) drooling snipped]

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Aug  8 07:43:10 PDT 1996
Article: 55851 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is, and what ain't
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 11:50:38 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 78
Message-ID: 
References: <31f78739.5257640@news.pacificnet.net>  <3200da43.5894331@news.pacificnet.net>  <3208b9cc.3932904@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi146.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <3208b9cc.3932904@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) wrote:

> mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>  
> >> Indeed, we are talking about Crema II and or III, and here you are
> >> with Crema I. 
> >
> >As I said: "for instance." The point was to illustrate that _increasing_
> >the length of the flue _created_ the required draft. Ergo, long flues
> >_solved_ the problem of insufficient draft. The chimney draft of Kremas II
> >and III (with their underground flues) was sufficient from the very
> >begining.
> 
> That's right you did say "for instance". But nevertheless you did
> point to Crema I when the topic was Cremas II and III.

So? Are you suggesting that physical laws varied between Kremas? 


> It does not follow that the length of the flue would create
> increasing draft proportionally. 

Please demonstrate this then. Be sure to include the proper heat and mass
transfer equations. 

> Even if it did, Which it doesn't, we are talking about flues underground, 
> below the source point of the gases.... 

Indeed. And Krema I, if you would had bothered to open a book, also had
underground flues from the furnaces to the chimney. Not altogether unlike
Kremas II and III. 

> ...Heat rises. Draft principles are contingent on heat rising.

Draft is dependant on the movement of a mass of air. (Never felt a _cold_
draft, I take it?)  In this case a mass of hot gas moving through ducting.
The fact that this air mass, being hot gas, rises through and escapes the
_chimney_, creates a volume of low pressure in the chimney- not  unlike a
fan would -thus sustaining the draft.  

> There is no application of draft principles to the alleged
> system, at least not until it got to the chimney. The longer the
> flues, the more mighty and extensive the system would have to be.
> Without the assist heat would build up a p[ressure in the flues and
> further inhibit the free flow of hot gases from above and at least
> half stuff would all come blasting out the fronts of the oven
> chambers.  

Wonderful! Now, please provide the heat and mass transfer equations
detailing this feat of Moronic(tm) engineering prowess that "proves" that
Kremas I, II, and III, couldn't have possibly functioned for the lengths
of time they did.

You might also wish to explain the eyewitness testimony and Bauleitung
documents mentioning the flues, the fact that furnaces operated, and that
thousands of tons of coke were shipped to Auschwitz and stored in the
Kremas that could only hold a fraction of that. 

> Whatever you wrote here is something you just dreamed up, made
> up, fanaticized for convenience. It has absolutely no support from the
> science of physics, only contradiction.

Ah, projecting again, I see. Moran, if there is one thing _you_ should
have realized by now is that _I_ don't make things up. 

You do. 


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Aug  8 07:43:11 PDT 1996
Article: 55874 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news.abs.net!News1.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is, and what ain't
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 11:33:58 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 57
Message-ID: 
References: <31f78739.5257640@news.pacificnet.net>  <3200da43.5894331@news.pacificnet.net>  <3208b5fa.2954800@news.pacificnet.net>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <3208b5fa.2954800@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) wrote:

> mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
> 
> >> mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
> >And _why_ would a "cooling system" be required for the _flues_? They were
> >underground and dissapated their heat (by conduction) to the surrounding
> >earth. A relatively inexhaustable heat sink, btw. 
> 
>         So you would have it that the dissipation, conduction process
> would stabilize to the immediate area of the flues and not expand
> outward to reach the floors of the building? Is that what you are
> saying?

What I'm saying is on what basis, considering that the Kremas II and III
operated for about 18 months, do you claim that exhausting the hot furnace
gases via underground flues was not done or would have posed
insurmountable problems?

> I would say that hot gases flowing through the flues at 1000 F
> would manifest at hundreds of degrees in the vicinity of the floors.

And on what basis to you make such an estimation? What documentation did
you reference for this? Where are the heat transfer equations that predict
this? 

Or is this yet another baseless instance of Because Moran Says So? 

> Of course you could come back and say the flue system was way
> down. In that case we would have to ask you - how far down.

I'd rather ask you about what documentation did you reference for your
"estimates" and  where are your heat transfer equations that predict them?


> The deeper you say the more it would mean there should still be
> some evidence of this. The deeper you say, the more extensive and
> powerful the exhausting system would have to be. 

Oooh, now you are a mechanical engineer too? Please support your claim for
a "more extensive and powerful the exhausting system" with the proper mass
transfer equations and/or authoritative sources that show this. 

> The deeper you say, the deeper you get.

Indeed. And you, Moran, are up to yor neck in it. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Aug  8 07:43:12 PDT 1996
Article: 55888 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is, and what ain't
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 12:01:14 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
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In article <3208be70.5120932@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) wrote:

> mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
> 
> >> >> The fires are said to have been raging all day, day after day,
> >> >> week after week onto months. 
>  
> >> >The furnaces were to said have been operated continuously _periodically_.
> >> >Specifically, during certain special Aktions, most notably Aktion Ho"ss,
> >> >in which approximately 438,000 Hungarian Jews were deported to Auschwitz
> >> >between  May 15 to July 9, 1944. (cf. _Auschwitz Chronicle_, p.627; _Death
> >> >Dealer_, p.45.) Of these 480,000 Hungarian Jews, about 394,000 (90%) were
> >> >murdered in the gas chambers on or shortly after their arrival at
> >> >Auschwitz II-Birkenau. 
>  
> >> "May 15 to July 9", '1900 to 1996', or from any 'May 1 to May 3',
> >> the heat would have been tremendous in the flues.
> 
> >Hmmm. Must be glosssolalia. 
> 
> >> >That the Kremas did not typically operate continuously "all day, day after
> >> >day, week after week onto months" can easily be seen by fact that there
> >> >were gaps in the arrival of transports to Auschwitz (cf. _Auschwitz
> >> >Chronicle_) and that some of the Kremas were not on-line for significant
> >> >periods of time (cf. _Anatomy_, pp.233-237). Krema IV was disabled shortly
> >> >after it became operational in 1943 and was not subsequently used
> >> >thereafter (cf. Ibid. p.234). Krema V, for example, was idled through much
> >> >of (late) 1943 and only came on line in May of 1944 for Aktion Ho"ss (cf.
> >> >Ibid. p.238).  Krema I was retired in early 1943 and subsequently
> >> >converted into a bomb shelter (cf. Ibid. p.159).
>  
> >> Regardless, considerable periods of time went on with the
> >> furnaces burning continuously.
> 
> >Which is quite different than your claim of "all day, day after day, week
> >after week onto months."
> 
> As the typical Holocaust practices go, we have the story tellers
> saying when convenient that the Cremas were operating continuously and
> when convenient not so continuously. 

Please, refresh my memomory as to all the names and writings of these
"story tellers" that made these claims you alledge. Or is this simply yet
another baseless case of Because Moran Says So? 

> I'm notr the one claiming "all day and all night". The Holocaust
> story claims it. I just cite the claims.

No. You lie, distort, decieve, forge, fabricate, insult, libel, and
slander. Not to mention you have held (still hold?) some patently
anti-Semitic and absurd beliefs. This has been well documented and can be
seen at:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom  

> The fact is, the story has the Cremas running at full blast for
> days, weeks and months.

Let's be clear here. It's _your_ "story." Not what actually happened.


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Aug  8 15:01:22 PDT 1996
Article: 55917 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is, and what ain't
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 19:03:16 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
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In article <3200da43.5894331@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) wrote:

> mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
> 

[snip]

> >The incinerated human remains fell through the chamotte grid of the retort
> >into the ash collection channel at the base of the furnace, then pulled
> >forward towards the ash collection door until they were _completely_
> >incinerated, and then manually removed. They were _not_ vented through the
> >chimney along with the hot exhaust gases. 
> 
> The ashes referred to are those that would be carried away in the
> smoke not to mean the bulk of the ashes that would be there if
> cremation took place. 

If "hot gases" are the topic then why make specious comments about the
(unspecified) ashes being "carried away in the smoke?" The remains of the
victims fell through the chamotte grid and into the ash channel of the
furnace where they were then removed. It's as simple as that. Is this too
hard for you to comprehend? 

> Hot gases is the topic, and the need for some kind of cooling system to the 
> flues.

And _why_ would a "cooling system" be required for the _flues_? They were
underground and dissapated their heat (by conduction) to the surrounding
earth. A relatively inexhaustable heat sink, btw. 

> >> In some cases the location of a retort might require running any duct 
> >> system as far 40 or 50 feet to the stack outside.
> >
> >Indeed. One of the first problems with Krema I, for instance, was that the
> >draft of the chimney was insufficient because the chimney was too short.
> >Kohler, a local engineering expert, ended up _adding_ a 12 m (underground)
> >flue to the (modified) 15 m chimney to create a draft of 27 m to solve the
> >problem. (cf. _Anatomy_, p.212.)
> 
> Indeed, we are talking about Crema II and or III, and here you are
> with Crema I. 

As I said: "for instance." The point was to illustrate that _increasing_
the length of the flue _created_ the required draft. Ergo, long flues
_solved_ the problem of insufficient draft. The chimney draft of Kremas II
and III (with their underground flues) was sufficient from the very
begining.

> >> The fires are said to have been raging all day, day after day,
> >> week after week onto months. 
> 
> >The furnaces were to said have been operated continuously _periodically_.
> >Specifically, during certain special Aktions, most notably Aktion Ho"ss,
> >in which approximately 438,000 Hungarian Jews were deported to Auschwitz
> >between  May 15 to July 9, 1944. (cf. _Auschwitz Chronicle_, p.627; _Death
> >Dealer_, p.45.) Of these 480,000 Hungarian Jews, about 394,000 (90%) were
> >murdered in the gas chambers on or shortly after their arrival at
> >Auschwitz II-Birkenau. 
> 
> "May 15 to July 9", '1900 to 1996', or from any 'May 1 to May 3',
> the heat would have been tremendous in the flues.

Hmmm. Must be glosssolalia. 

> >That the Kremas did not typically operate continuously "all day, day after
> >day, week after week onto months" can easily be seen by fact that there
> >were gaps in the arrival of transports to Auschwitz (cf. _Auschwitz
> >Chronicle_) and that some of the Kremas were not on-line for significant
> >periods of time (cf. _Anatomy_, pp.233-237). Krema IV was disabled shortly
> >after it became operational in 1943 and was not subsequently used
> >thereafter (cf. Ibid. p.234). Krema V, for example, was idled through much
> >of (late) 1943 and only came on line in May of 1944 for Aktion Ho"ss (cf.
> >Ibid. p.238).  Krema I was retired in early 1943 and subsequently
> >converted into a bomb shelter (cf. Ibid. p.159).
> 
> Regardless, considerable periods of time went on with the
> furnaces burning continuously.

Which is quite different than your claim of "all day, day after day, week
after week onto months."

> >> In this case we have to consider the likelihood that intense heat would 
> >> build up in the flue system, it being subjected to temperatures of 1500
> >> degrees F or more on a continuous basis.
> >
> >The temperature in the underground flues was typically around 500-700 C.
> >The temperature of the furnaces themselves was somewhat higher- 800-1,000
> >C. (cf. _Technique_, p. 137.) Furthermore, according to the operating
> >instructions for the Topf double and triple-muffle furnaces, the operating
> >temperature was to have been kept _below_ 1,100 C by introducing fresh air
> >(from the pulsed air blower.) (cf. Ibid. p.136.) 
> 
> Okay, I used F temperature and you use C....

1,500 F is 815 C, which is a bit more than 500-700 C. 

>...The temperatures would be close to each other and still extreme.

And on what basis have you determined that 500-700 C is an "extreme"
temprature for the flues? Please be specific in citing your sources. Or is
it simply Because Moran Says So? 

[snip]

> >> Five of these flue arms converging from a radiating pattern
> >> beneath the floors of the building would have to have some negative
> >> effect. The heat wouldn't be able to dissapate fast enough through the
> >> soil, the soil temperature itself would have to hit hundreds of
> >> degrees. 
> >
> >And does Moran provide the heat exchange equations to support this?
> 
> Does Moran need to supply any "heat exchange equations" to pose
> the problem? No.

Yes, Moran does. That is if Moran wished to be taken as something other
than the  crackpot he is....

> >No. Does he provide historical evidence? No.
> 
> Exactly. There isn't any. No Pressac stuff to show there was any
> equipment shipped to make up what would be necessary for the problem
> posed. 

And what "problem", in your opinion, exactly, was "posed?"

> ...And there isn't any aechological evidence either. If there was,
> the Holocaust story would be playing it up.

I take it you mean by "aechological [sic] evidence" the flues? It is
rather self-evident, considering that the construction plans clearly
indicated they were underground, and that eywtiness testimony indicated
that they were underground, that they were indeed underground. 

But if you claim that they were _not_ underground just exactly where _do_
you claim they were? Please be specific in citing your sources for such an
assumption.

> > Does he state what specific problems to the Krema(s) this 
> > "negative effect" might cause? 
> 
> Did he state that the floors would be extremely hot? Yes. 

And where does Pressac state this? Please be specific. 

> Does one need any "heat exchange equations" to consider the reprocussions
> that would ensue? No. 

Yes, Moran does. That is if Moran wished to be taken as something other
than the  crackpot he is....

> The building would have to be very hot, what with five flues below, at
"500 to 
> 700 C", not to mention the ovens on the floor.

The furnace hall was indeed hot. There were, after all, five rather large
furnaces operating there. But then, the furnace hall had a ventilation
system to remove the hot air.... 

> From your figures, "500 to 700 C", transferring through the walls
> of the flue, to the soil, for months on end, even if they were set 20
> feet under ground a good part of the heat would eventually transfer to
> the building and surrounding areas. 

And does Moran have the heat transfer equations to show that this indeed
would have taken place? No.

> The deeper they are said to be, the more they should still be there after all 
> the tales of the Germans  blowing up the facilites.

Indeed. And do you think they are not?  Please be specific in citing your
sources for such an assumption. Or is it simply Because Moran Says So? 

> >No. Well, what _does_ Moran provide in support of his "claims?" Evidently, 
> >nothing but his _own_ hot-air. How typical.
> >
> >> How was this flue system constructed? It would need very special
> >> attention. Special pump systems to draw the hot expended gases and ash
> >> down into the ground and then to the chimney, a housing chamber for
> >> the motor and workings and some kind of heat dissapation system for
> >> the flues. 
> >
> >Indeed in Kremas I, II, and III we know that they were initially equipped
> >with forced-draft ventilation systems. 
> >
> >> Just trying to ballpark a design musters up a vision of a
> >> sizable undertaking, probably requiring technology the Germans hadn't
> >> had to develope before. 
> >
> >Obviously, Moran's "vision" is rather limited in scope and understanding.
> >The Germans did indeed develop and use such technology. In fact, said
> >"technology" was rather mundane. In Krema I, for instance,  it consisted
> >of a rotary damper in the chimney to route the air flow past, a
> >moter-driven fan, to force a draft. The  fan/motor was water-cooled. When
> >the draft was established the damper was switched to route the exhaust
> >gases back through the base of the chimney (closing off passage to the
> >fan/motor) and the fan shut off. (cf. Ibid. p.137.) During continuous
> >operation, when the furnaces were hot, the draft was already well
> >established and the forced draft ventilation system was not used. 
> 
>  Here he is again with Crema I.

Are you suggesting that the Germans _didn't_ develop the technology to
water cool the forced draught system of Krema I? Or that said _proven_
technolopgy _couldn't_ be adpated elsewhere? 

>...And even here he avoids the temperature issue.

What "temperature issue?" Just Because Moran Says So doesn't mean there
_was_ any "temperature issue." Please be specific in citing your sources
for this alleged "temperature issue."
 
> >> Holocaust researcher, Pressac, has poured over these records for
> >> ten years and has presented his culminating conclusions by dramatic
> >> prose, citing orders for this or that, presenting plans and systems
> >> layouts and citing communications.
> >
> >Indeed he has. And if Moran had actually examined Pressac's work in detail
> >he would have realized that it clearly contradicts his insinuations. 
> >
> >> But no where is there an account of any system that would be
> >> required to make the claimed flue system work.

Do you claim that the "flue system" of Kremas II and III _didn't_ work? 
Please be specific in citing your sources that the furnace exhaust
ventilation systems for Kremas II and III didn't work. Or is it simply
Because Moran Says So? 

> >Not true. See above. 
> 
>  Wait a minute. Why didn't you say 'See Pressac'? 

Because I meant to say "see above." That's were I refuted your silly drivel. 

> ...Better yet, why don't you show Pressac?

Even better, why don't _you_ show Pressac? Hmmm? 

> Poor Mr.VanAlstine. "Crema I". "From May 15 to July 9". "500 to 700
> C". "Heat exchange equations". "If Mr.Moran had actually examined
> Pressac's work in detail ...". 

Indeed. Perhaps then you wouldn't sound like such a braying ass? Naaaaah.... 

> Well so much for evasions and tangents.  

Indeed. They don't get you anywhere. Never did, never will. 


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Aug  8 19:12:05 PDT 1996
Article: 125362 of control
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel 
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From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Aug  9 08:02:31 PDT 1996
Article: 55975 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is, and what ain't
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 14:23:52 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 79
Message-ID: 
References: <31f78739.5257640@news.pacificnet.net>  <3200da43.5894331@news.pacificnet.net>  <4ubi1f$kp1@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <3209f4b2.3579627@news.pacificnet.net>
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In article <3209f4b2.3579627@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) wrote:

> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com the Troll squeeked:
> 
> >On Tue, 06 Aug 1996 19:03:16 -0800, mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van
> >Alstine) wrote:
> >
> >>In article <3200da43.5894331@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
> >>moran) wrote:
> >
> >>> Hot gases is the topic, and the need for some kind of cooling system to 
> >>> the flues.
> >
> >>And _why_ would a "cooling system" be required for the _flues_? They were
> >>underground and dissapated their heat (by conduction) to the surrounding
> >>earth. A relatively inexhaustable heat sink, btw. 
> >
> >Rather it would be a very good insulator.  As little as three to six
> >feet down, depending upon soil type, the temperature is the year round
> >average for the climate.  A few feet further down, the temperature is
> >related to core heating.  
> 
> One thousand degrees running from five ducts below the floors of
> the building would cause extreme relative extremes in temperature.

Again, please provide the heat transfer calculations that show this. So
far the only heat being generated here, Moran, is from the smoke blowing
out your butt. 

> "Inexhaustible heat sink" might apply to something way down and not
> reaching the surface. Heat sink would work in all directions. It works
> by conduction, but it would also be biased upwards due to heat rising.
> 
> Anything about "core heating" is irrelevant here, because of it's
> minuscule additive effect.

Again, please provide the heat transfer calculations that show this. So
far the only heat being generated here, Moran, is from the smoke blowing
out your butt. 

> We are talking about five flues running from five ovens, to the
> chimney outside. Holocaust plans for cremas give the opportunity to
> gauge how many feet of ducting would be involved.

Indeed they do. Why don't you take a look at them before blowing more
smoke out your butt? 

> We can assume the "ducts" are not just little pipes. They are
> ducts. They would be at least one foot square. We could calculate how
> many square feet would be in contact with the proximate soil.

Indeed one can. Why don't you take a look at the plans and make such
calculations instead of blowing more smoke out your butt? 

> How far down were the ducts? I personally don't know. Anyone want
> to present the Holocaust facts? 

Why don't _you_, Moran, get off your lazy, smoke belching, ass and find out? 

>  Either way, there should be some extant remains of such a system.
> If the Holocaust is under such widespread attack, why don't those who
> are so adamant on pressing the story show the world? 

Becuase nobody with at least half a brain denies that the furnaces in the
Kremas functioned and that the flues and smokestack existed and worked.

Obviously, that leaves you in the less-than-half-a-brain catagory. Hardly
suprising. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Aug  9 08:02:32 PDT 1996
Article: 55980 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 18:27:07 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 79
Message-ID: 
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <4thvv0$8ln@hades.rz.uni-sb.de>  <4tsci6$s7@hades.rz.uni-sb.de> 
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:82210 alt.revisionism:55980

In article , olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole
Kreiberg) wrote:

> In the operation manual for Zyklon by DEGESH you can read the following: 
> 
>  The chief operator must so arrange everyone's part in the opereation that
>  it will not take more than 30 minutes in all [the spreading of Zyklon B]. 
>  This applies especially to very warm climates. HCN develops more quickly at 
>  a high temperature. This important fact should always be kept in mind....
>  
>  Ventilation
> 
>  Depending on concentration, outdoor temperature and weather conditions,
>  ventilation will take at least 10 hours. Its duration also depends on the
>  type of building, number, size, and situation of windows and other 
>  apertures.
> 

And? What relevence is this supposed to have? The fumigations described,
for instance, by NI-9912, pertain mainly to residential and other
dwellings that contained rooms, cabinets, closets, furniture, bedding,
etc.. This is a far cry from the bare concrete gas chambers of Kremas II
and III that were mechanically ventilated. 

A couple of more relevent examples might be worth noting instead:

"Zyklon B had been introduced in Auschwitz in July 1940, when it was used
to fumigate the Polish barracks which, according to Ho"ss, 'teemed with
lice, fleas, and other bugs.' Later that year Schlachter created primitive
gas chambers in block 26, and some months thereafter in block 3, to
fumigate the prisoners' clothing; existing rooms were sealed and powerful
fans instaled. The Polish inmate Andrzej Rablin operated the facility in
block 3.

   "We recieved the Zyklon-B from Kapo Mau, a German, who was the only
    one to have the key to the store. Bezucha, another prisoner, and I
    did the gassing. We put on our gas masks and went in the room naked
    or wearing underpants. We did that because of the lice. There were
    very many lice in the clothes. Sometimes, filling the chamber with
    clothes took as much as two days. The lice fell on the floor and
    formed a layer about 50 cm across under the clothes. When we went
    to spread the gas, the lice jumped on us and the layers dissapeared
    very fast.... After throwing the crystals we went out, closed the door
    and stuck strips od paper over the gaps. Twenty four hours later, we
    put our gas masks on again, the extractor fans were switched on and
    [we went in and] we opened the windows. The ventilation continued
    for two hours.

"Effective as the procedure was, the camp authorities found it
irritatingly inefficient. Too much Zyklon B was needed and it took too
long to exterminate the lice. The Degesch engineers addressed this problem
in an article they sent to the building office in July 1941. They
reccommended the installation of many small heatable gas chambers designed
to be used with the standard 200-gram tin of Zyklon B. Heating the space
to over thirty degrees centigrade helped the gas to evaporate from the
grains quickly and completely, and shortened the exposure time needed to
kill the lice to one hour. A sophisticated ventilation system not only
ensured the rapid penetration of all the garments wit prussic acid but
also permitted the clothes to be worn safely fifteen minutes after
fumigation.... (_Auschwitz: 1220 to the present_; pp. 219-221.) 

In the crude delousing chamber of block 3 the ventilation time was two
hours. In the more sophisticated delousing chamber it was fifteen minutes.
In the large homicidal gas chambers of Kremas II and III it was twenty
minutes. 


Mark


posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Aug  9 08:02:33 PDT 1996
Article: 55996 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 23:40:32 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
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In article <4ue5te$ug@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
(Ehrlich606) wrote:

[snip]

> OK, since you put it like that then I am in agreement that we should agree
> to disagree.  Pressac's explanation is _possible_ but in my opinion not
> _probable_.

And _why_ is Pressac's theory, in your opinion, not "_probable_"? 

I'm all ears. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Aug  9 10:42:49 PDT 1996
Article: 125408 of control
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
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From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Aug  9 10:42:51 PDT 1996
Article: 125409 of control
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From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Aug  9 10:42:52 PDT 1996
Article: 125410 of control
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From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Aug  9 10:42:53 PDT 1996
Article: 125411 of control
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From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Aug  9 10:42:53 PDT 1996
Article: 125632 of control
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From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Aug  9 16:23:53 PDT 1996
Article: 56111 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Slithery Nizkor/Keren stuff
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 18:47:44 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 24
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References: <32025d93.1721019@news.pacificnet.net> <4ue359$ati@news.enter.net>   
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In article <4ue359$ati@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

> >   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>    
> >  Anyone having "Word Perfect" and wanting to witness an "Unknown
> >  Format" window, try transferring some Nizkor stuff to it.
> 
> I use a dos version of WordPerfect.  I had no trouble either saving it to 
> disc or printing it out.  Are you sure your computer is on?

More relevant would be to question if Moran's head is attached to his neck.... 

With all his mindless and frantic running around of late one might be
excused for mistaking him for a chicken with its head chopped off.... 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Aug  9 17:39:25 PDT 1996
Article: 56130 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: gassing evidence bears interest
Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 16:00:09 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 49
Message-ID: 
References: <4u3gqb$f9d@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>  <4ueu6p$kcd@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> 
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In article , dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
> # dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
> 
> ## the ventilation grills of Krema III were tested in
> ## 1945 and cyanide compounds were discovered on them.
> 
> # It is interesting that you felt compelled to make that up.  
> 
> I didn't make it up. I am not a worthless liar like you.
> 
> # Perhaps you can point to Nizkor or any other site that
> # supports it?  
> 
> It's reported in Pressac's book, with, as I recall, a
> photograph of the ventilation grills. I don't have the
> book handy; perhaps someone can check. If not, I will
> post the page number when I return home, in about 3 weeks.

Document 54; _Technique_, p.233.

The caption to the photo reads:

"Rear view of one of the 145 galvenized plates, perforated by hand, which
were set into and nailed to the wooden fresh air ducts in the upper part
of Leichenkeller 1 of Krematorien II and III, now kept in PMO <>
Block 25. Toxicological analyses were carried out in 1945 by the Cracow
Forensic Institute (7 Copernicus Street) on 4 complete plates and 2
damaged ventilation orifices found in the ruins of Kremtorium II. After
scraping the white substance that covered these objects back to the metal,
7.2 grammes of scrapings were collected and subjected to two qualitative
analyses, which established the presence of cyanide compounds. The report,
signed by Dr. Jan Z Robel, was written on 15th December 1945 and
transmitted to the Examining Judge, Jan Sehn." 


Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Aug 10 09:53:40 PDT 1996
Article: 56173 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!udel-eecis!delmarva.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 23:37:54 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 44
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References:  <4uei1p$blq@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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In article <4uei1p$blq@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa) wrote:

> Aug 8, 1996 Jamie McCarthy wrote:
> 
> >> Ehrlich606 is too scared to reply, but they look like >shade on the
> >> side of square little chimneys. But then I was able to >>view the
> >> original this weekend. :-)
>   [snip]
> >There is a rectangle to the right of the shadowed areas which is 
> >slightly but recognizably lighter than the Krema wall behind it.  
> 
> >I would also very much like to hear how Ceacaa explains this.
> 
> I have been out of the discussion for several days. 
> The discussion is about the shape of the objects
> on the roof of Leichenkeller 1 in the picture??

Indeed it is, Mr. Allen. 

> I would agree with M. VanAlstine if he says that
> the boxes are rectangular.  This is pretty evident
> if one looks  at photograph 17 on pg. 340 of Pressac.

Indeed it is, Mr. Allen. Perhaps you could have a little chat with
Erlich606 about this? He seems to be at odds with such opinions for some
reason. I _do_ hope you can straighten him out on this.... };-> 

> The shadows indicate that the picture was taken
> in early morning, for a Polish January/February
> on a mildly windy day.  

Hmmm. Curiouser and curiouser.... I'd very _much_ like for you, Mr. Allen,
to explain- in detail -how you "determined" the the date from the shadow
angle. I'm sure it will be "interesting."  

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Aug 10 09:53:40 PDT 1996
Article: 56207 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 23:56:04 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 51
Message-ID: 
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com>  <4u984g$pm8@news.iglobal.net> <4ubbi4$pqm@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4ue7o4$6uf@access5.digex.net>
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In article <4ue7o4$6uf@access5.digex.net>, mstein@access5.digex.net
(Michael P. Stein) wrote:

> In article <4ubbi4$pqm@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
> Matt  Giwer  wrote:
> >On 7 Aug 1996 05:04:16 GMT, patchwgl@infinop.com (Gary) wrote:
> >>There is a relatively easy "test" for anyone with a couple of bucks and 
> >>a few free minutes:  simply go to the local Wal-Mart or similar, buy a 
> >>box of activated charcoal from the aquarium supplies section and toss 
> >>some of the contents into a sinkful of water.  It is readily apparent 
> >>that the activated charcoal (which is made by burning cattle bones)  is 
> >>approx. 1 cm sieve crush, frequently floats (due to surface tension), 
> >>and is easily moved about by even gentle currents.
> >
> >       Whatever the source of activated charcoal, and I sincerely doubt you
> >have the source correct due to the lack of carbon in bones,
> 
> 
>    You are just a fountain of ignorance, aren't you?
> 
> 
>    Hydroxyapatite Crystals - Hydroxyapatite crystals make up the
>    inorganic component of bone. They contain calcium phosphate, calcium
>    carbonate and small amounts of magnesium, hydroxide, fluoride and
>    ^^^^^^^^^      
>    sulfate (composition varies with age and diet).

>From  _The Penguin Dictionary of Chemistry_: 

"bone black, animal charcoal  The residue remaining after the destructive
distillation of degreased bones. The black residue, bone black, contains
about 10% amorphous carbon, disseminated through a very porous substrate
of calcium phosphate (80%), and carbonate, etc. Treatment with mineral
acid dissolves away the salts and leaves a charcoal known as Ivory Black,
used in sugar refining as a decolorizing agent."

> 
>    Of course this also makes your other assertion, about bones being made
> of "calcium oxide," rather ridiculous as well.

Indeed. Profoundly ridiculous. But that is the norm for the Troll.

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Aug 10 09:53:41 PDT 1996
Article: 56222 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor's BELZEC - more goofy stuff
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 18:35:29 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 24
Message-ID: 
References: <3209f233.2940300@news.pacificnet.net> <4ue2ho$ati@news.enter.net>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4ue2ho$ati@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

> >   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
> 
> >       My experience with testimonies is that the more there are, the
> >  more discrepancies. Seems like every one of them could be compared to
> >  another and find something contradictions.
> 
>         You have no experience with testimony.

This is true. Now _lies_, on the other hand, Moran has _plenty_ of
experiance with....

See: http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Aug 10 09:53:42 PDT 1996
Article: 56233 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 03:08:53 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 108
Message-ID: 
References: <4ufhbh$cmc@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4uglb7$rkp@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4uglb7$rkp@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa) wrote:

[snip]

> I do not think that Mr. Ehrlich should abandon the idea that the crates
> contained roofing material.  Similar crates appear in
> other photographs of the construction of Cremas II and III,
> particularly in conjuction with the "finishing " of concrete
> floors.  

And where may these photgraphs be found, Mr. Allen? Please cite them. 


> The photograph of discussion was taken during the construction
> period when roofing would have been going on. 

The roofing to _what_, Mr. Allen? The L.Kellers? Not quite. The bituminous
felt was sandwiched _in_ the concrete roof. The roof of the L.Kellers had
been _completed_ before the end of January. The photo in question was
probably taken between February 9 and 11. 

> The photograph was also taken to "document" the construction process. 

Indeed. It shows Krema II nearly completed and Krema III under construction. 

> None of these points is overwhelming but they do provide a convergence of 
> evidence.

Indeed. Convergence of the evidence that three of the "little chimneys"
are completed and the fourth yet to be built. 

> It is my recollection that the Leichenkeller was roofed
> with an asphalt-like coating. 

Your recollection is faulty, Mr. Allen. The roof to the L.Kellers were of
concrete that _contained_ a layer of bituminous felt damp-proofing. This
can be seen in Document 97. The caption to the photo of the ruins of Krema
II's L.Keller 1 reads:

"South/north view of the ruins of the gas chamber (Leichenkeller 1) of
Krematorium II, taken from its southern end. Bottom left is one of the
four openings, its chimney dismantled, through which the Zyklon-B was
poured. In the foreground, the roof is resting on a pillar that withstood
the explosion. The black parts of the roof are the places where the
protective layer of concrete has cracked and exposed the l;ayer of
bituminous damp-proofing material." (_Technique_, p.260-261.)

Phyical proof, Mr. Allen, that the damp-proofing was _inside_ the concrete roof.

> Whatever the roofing material was, it is quite likely that it arrived in  
> crates. 

That is irrelevent, Mr. Allen, as the roofs were completed weeks before
the photo was taken. 

> Remember that there were two layers of roof over the original slab.

That is not in accordance with the construction drawings, Mr. Allen. the
Huta drawing 109/13A, for instance, clearly shows that the roof consisted
of just two layer, which sandwiched the damp-proofing between them. (Ibid.
p.323.)

> Proof of what these boxes were is probably in the
> construction records at Auschwitz.  If Bituminous felt
> came in 3 x 4 crates then we have an important piece of
> the puzzle.

Then go find the records for these crates, Mr. Allen. Make sure they say
"3 x 4 crates crates of damp-proofing material." Umtil then you are simply
begging the question with idle speculation. 

> In discussions it is usually much easier to poke holes
> in someone else's hypothosis than create an airtight
> argument of one's own.  

Indeed. You should know. You _try_ to enough. 

> However, the claims that these boxes were "little chimneys" is far 
> less likely than the possiblity that they had something to do with 
> construction. 

More begging the question. Not to mention you speciously choose to ignore
multiple eyewitness testimonies describing the "little chimneys." Not to
mention the August, 1944 air photo that shows them (all four) on the roofs
of the L.Kellers.) Such flimsy strawmen you make, Mr. Allen! 

> Quite simply, the boxes are the wrong number, the wrong place, the wrong
size, the wrong shape, probably the wrong time in the construction
schedule to be  "little chimneys".  Plus, there ain't no holes there!

Such baloney, Mr. Allen. Such a blind eye you turn to the plethora of
evidence to the contrary! Such intellectual dishonesty. Tsk tsk. 

> Here is a question for Jamie.  Why did the Germans
> bother to convert Leichenkeller 1 into a homicidal
> gas chamber at all?  

Why, to kill people, of course. Hundreds of thousands of people. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Aug 10 09:53:43 PDT 1996
Article: 56238 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Germar Rudolf Responds on Zyklon Outgassing
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 03:17:23 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 28
Message-ID: 
References: <4ugtd1$1qi@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4ugtd1$1qi@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
(Ehrlich606) wrote:

In article <4ugtd1$1qi@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
(Ehrlich606) wrote:

[snip]

> E606:  Dan, don't you think you are being amazing as well?  No one
> disputes that there are _holes_ the fact is that they are not in the
> locations where they could conceivably be induction holes, according to
> both of your photographs.  Moreover, they have the rebar sticking out and
> so on.

And where are these holes with "rebar sticking out and so on" located at,
exactly? How many are there? Please feel free to provide photographs.

Mr. Allen, it seems, is rather reluctant to do so.... 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Aug 10 09:53:43 PDT 1996
Article: 56239 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Meets His Match
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 03:18:15 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 25
Message-ID: 
References: <4ugf7k$39m@shiva.usa.net> <4ugt4h$1t7@news.enter.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4ugt4h$1t7@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

> >   hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) writes:
> >  In article <4u9gur$29s@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
> >  Matt  Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
> 
> >       You do nothing but nip at my heals.
>   
> >  That is all a fraud like Mr. Giwer deserves.
> 
> 
>         Does anyone beside me wonder why l'il tommy and Matty poo use the 
> same malaprop?

Because they are both maladroits? 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Aug 10 12:13:33 PDT 1996
Article: 56286 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: auschwitz:myths and facts
Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 20:36:32 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 36
Message-ID: 
References: <4tuuee$5k2@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4u2kka$255@newsbf02.news.aol.com>  <4u9glq$29s@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4ugeru$l3s@arl-news-svc-2.compuserve.com>
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In article <4ugeru$l3s@arl-news-svc-2.compuserve.com>,
100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
> 
> >>Indeed. The gas chambers of Krema II and III were ventilated with outside
> >>air. During the _summer_ when the outside air temperature was _higher_
> >>than the temperature in the gas chambers. Ergo, the gas chambers were
> >>preheated. (During the winter the gas chambers were preheated with buckets
> >>of red-hot coke.) 
> 
> >       It is amazing what you folks will fabricate when you you are
> >desperate.  As we all know, not even a fan has been found much less
> >the specification for the fan, much less the drawings of the
> >preheating chamber.  
> 
> It's funny, or better I have to say that it is sad. The exhaust fans
> were retrieved right after the war. It was a lot of CN- on the fans.
> It's well known and you certainly knew this.

At one time, the Troll may have known this. He was surely told enough
times. However, considering his advanced state of dementia, it is quite
likely that he has a problem with his long-term memory. Like anything
longer than 30 seconds. 

Sad indeed. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Aug 10 15:00:35 PDT 1996
Article: 2433 of alt.fan.ernst-zundel
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.fan.dan.gannon.nazi.scum
Subject: Re: Showing Your White Physique [Skippy the Mad Troller]
Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 16:14:23 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 40
Message-ID: 
References:  <4ueoit$8tp@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
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In article <4ueoit$8tp@Networking.Stanford.EDU>, rich@c2.org (Rich Graves)
wrote:

> qut@netcom.com (Dave Harman and other nyms), who just got kicked off of
> penet.fi, writes:
> >  P R O P O S A L   F O R   A   W H I T E   G R E E T I N G - S I G N
> 
>  [someone else's joke deleted]
> 
> I have a far better idea:
> 
> 1. Extend the middle finger of your right hand as you retract the others.
>    If you're double-jointed, curve back. This gestuure symbolizes the
>    oneness of white racism, and its centrality to your thinking.
> 2. Present your extended finger in front of you, showing it to your racist
>    friends, if you have any. This symbolizes the unity of the racist
>    ideal.
> 3. In a swift but smooth motion, sweep your hand to the right until it
>    rests on your right buttock.
> 4. Gently but firmy, insert your finger, as far as it will go.
> 5. Jiggle. Isn't this more fun than this stupid trolling?
> 
> -rich
>  http://www.c2.org/~rich/


ROTFLMAO!

Rich, you forgot to mention making sure to have some handy-wipes on hand
after the all the fun is over. Tsk tsk, you naughty boy!  };-> 

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Aug 11 01:34:48 PDT 1996
Article: 56412 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!EU.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Them lovely "chimneys" - kr2a.jpg (0/1)
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 12:42:59 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 56
Message-ID: 
References: <4uhi8c$gfa@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4uie8k$ibj@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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In article <4uie8k$ibj@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
(Ehrlich606) wrote:

> In article <4uhi8c$gfa@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
> (Matt  Giwer) writes:
> 
> >Since the chimneys are back in the news, here they are in all of
> >their irregular, huge, shadowless glory from the aerial view.
> >
> What is interesting here is that Mark Van Alstine did a beautiful
> reconstruction of what one of these induction things would have looked
> like in the cross section.  

Why, thank you. 

> The dimensions are about 23 inches high and 27 inches across.  

The 70 cm. dimension is an _inside_ dimension. I didn't have an accurate
cite for the width of the "little chimney." My guess, based on the
Bauleitung photo, is about 80-100 cm in width. 

> Furthermore, he alleges about 17 inches of dirt on the roof of the
Krema.  The problem I have here is twofold:  The aerial photographs show
no indication of the Krema roofs being covered with dirt.

Really? Sure looks like they are covered with something to me....
Interesting that the roofs of the L.Kellers are the same shade as parts of
the surrounding Krema yard, yes? Dirt? Turf? Snow? It sure don't look like
_concrete_, as in a concrete floor, which can be seen in the December 21,
1944, ariel photo showing the L.Keller 2 partially dismantled and its roof
removed- exposing the concrete floor. No berm, no roof, and a concrete
floor that contrasts greatly with the surrounding Krema yard. 

Unlike, for instance, the August 26, 1944, photo. 

>  Second, neither a height of 23 inches or 6 inches (with the dirt) would
> conceivably cast the kind of *shadow* we see in the picture.

And whay _kind_ of shadow to you think is being cast? Please detail your
assumptions. 

> Such dimensions also have nothing to do with the 3 x 4 foot crates of
> roofing material in the by now famous photograph.

Nope. But then _your_ (and Mr. Allen's) "3 x 4 foot crates" have nothing
to do with reality. Certainly not with the L.Kellers.

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Aug 11 07:34:55 PDT 1996
Article: 56456 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Except from Rudolf Report -- Zyklon B
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 14:49:35 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 148
Message-ID: 
References: <4u7v5l$f7d@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <3208abcf.351080@news.pacificnet.net>  <3209ea0c.853809@news.pacificnet.net>  <320c8ca2.563475@news.pacificnet.net>
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In article <320c8ca2.563475@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) wrote:

> dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

[snip]

> >Zyklon-B was available at large quantities; it was cheap; a
> >very small amount can kill thousands of people; and the SS
> >had a great deal of experience with using it.
> 
> So what you are saying is that Zyklon B was cost effective over
> carbon monoxide?
> 
>      The Zyklon B would be made after a number of steps and
> transportations. The manufacture of the materials for the carrier and
> shipping to Degesch, the manufacture of the HCN and shipping, the
> making of the product (under specialized conditions one would think),
> packaging in the cans, crating, shipping. Not to mention all the other
> little expenses, man hours, clerical, worker, etc. Printing that had
> to be put on the side of the cans. Training teams, and a slue of other
> expense considerations.

And yet, in 1944, Zyklon B (without lachrymal) cost 5 Reichmarks per
kilogram (cf. _Confessions_, pp.93-94). That would mean that 20 Reichmarks
worth (4 kg) of Zyklon B would kill 1,000 people (cf. _Anatomy_, p.215_).

That's 0.02 Reichmarks (1992: $.08) per victim. Less than the cost of a bullet. 

But what about the "slue of other expense considerations?" Like, for
instance, the cost of the Krema? Well, when Krema II was delivered to the
SS on March 31, 1943, it cost 554,500 Reichmarks (1992 $2,215,000) [Ibid.
p.233]. Considering that about 350,000 victims were killed in Krema II
(cf. _Technique_,p.183) that would mean that Krema II cost about 1.58
Reichmarks (1992: $6.33) per victim.

But lest we forget there is the _other_ consideration to remember: that of
how much _profit_ the Nazis made from their victims:

"The highest echelons of the SS once estimated the profit generated by the
average concentration camp prisoner. Based on an average prisoner life
expectancy of nine months, the profit totaled 1,431 RM  (about $654) per
prisoner after deducting the costs of upkeep. The value of money,
valuable, clothing, personal belongings, and teeth of precious metals
reached 200 RM ($91)  agter the costs of burning the body had been
deducted. Thus, according to calculation made by the Nazis themselves, the
total average profit from one prisoner, not including the value of the
victim's bones, totaled 1,631 RM ($745). (_Anatomy_, p.262.) 

> With the carbon monoxide trick, all one had to do is put a little
> gas in the engine, start it up, turn it off. 

Indeed. And one had to extract and refine the oil (or coal) to make the
gas and to store it. Then transport it to the camp. Only then could one
"put a little gas in the engine, start it up, turn it off." How much did
all this cost, Moran?  Was it 0.02 Reichmarks per victim? 

> Seems like Zyklon B could cost 10 or 20 times that for the carbon
> monoxide procedure.

Seems like you are blowing smoke out your butt again, Moran. 

> >#  And as Ehrich's post shows, with more direct approach than
> ># Mr.Keren and company's tactics of referring people to 
> ># some "images" written in German, 
> 
> >Can you elaborate?
> 
>  Ehrlich's post is in English. He seems to have posted the
> material itself, instead of just referring people to it. 

Whine, whine, whine.... 

> ># the product Zyklon B would have been a poor choice
> ># since only 12.5%, at the most, of the product would have 
> ># been used with 87.5%, 
> 
> >More than 12.5; but this is not really crucial.
> 
> "Not really crucial"? Crucial to what? It's capacity to kill, or
> its cost effectiveness. Maybe you are referring to some other
> "crucial". 

0.02 Reichmarks per victim. Dr. Keren is correct that most of the HCN was
"wasted" is hardly "crucial." Zyklon B killed quite cost effectively. 

>  I see you have employed one of your favorite practices here.
> "More than ..." without saying how much more.  

Whine, whine, whine.... 

> Anyway, here you have just offered up the proposal that the
> Germans may have chosen Zyklon B over carbon monoxide because of
> expense considerations and here you are saying something about "not
> really crucial" in relation to the figures showing that 87.5% of the
> product would have been un-necessary, wasted.

0.02 Reichmarks per victim. Dr. Keren is correct that most of the HCN was
"wasted" is hardly "crucial." Zyklon B killed quite cost effectively. 

> ># at the least, being un-necessary, wasted, left over to
> ># complicate the unloading of the chambers and disposing of 
> ># the left over 87.5%.
> 
> >As noted here dozens of times, these "complications" were
> >trivial to solve, using a ventilation system (or natural
> >ventilation), and gas masks.
> 
> It doesn't matter how many times something may have been noted,
> the statement doesn't mean anything.

Especially, if like you, Moran, one is too stupid to comprehend what has
been explained over and over again.... (You may have the same retention
problems that the Troll does, see your physician soonest...) 

> You say the complications would have been trivial? Certainly not
> in relation to the use of carbon monoxide. 

And why not? What is "complicated" about aerating a concrete room full of
HCN gas? (Or do you subscribe to the Troll's "fans don't work" insanity?)
Seems a rather trivial concern to me.... 

> The Holocaust Zyklon B story is loaded with tales of woe for using Zyklon B.

And _you_, Moran, are loaded to the gills with bullshit.... 

> SS having to go around from one window to another with a step
> ladder, doing a "balancing act" while dumping in the Zyklon B, cutting
> holes in roofs through iron reinforced concrete, construction of
> special pillars and wire mesh introduction cages. Picking up the
> remaining Zyklon B which would by then still have about 50% of the
> HCN, getting rid of and/or recycling the expended Zyklon B pellets to
> something else. Gas masks. 
>         Is this the "trivial" you are talking about?

Yep. In spite of such snags, they were _all_ overcome. In spite of such
_trivial_ problems, the Nazis murderd over a million people in the gas
chambers at Auschwitz. At a profit. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Aug 11 07:34:56 PDT 1996
Article: 56459 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photographs from BELSEN Camp
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 14:00:50 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 29
Message-ID: 
References: <838484554snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> <4tg59k$qfk@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <320a0c85.596821190@news.zilker.net>  <839676404snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>
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In article <839676404snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>, A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk wrote:

> In article  dkeren@world.std.com "Daniel
Keren" writes:
> 
> > These people didn't die because Kramer locked himself in
> > the bread store, or because the water pump broke down, or
> > because of any other "reason" our desperate Nazi apologists 
> > are trying to peddle. They died because the Nazis considered
> > them to be "sub-humans". The people who continue to make
> > lame excuses and lie about their death, are probably in
> > agreement with the Nazis; there is no other clear reason
> > to explain what they are doing.
> 
> And as I have consistently denounced the Protocols of Zion as a fake I
> am probably in agreement with Organised Jewry. Ther is no other clear
> reason to explain what I am doing.

Of course there is, Al: you are a pathetic anti-Semitic Nazi apologist. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Aug 11 22:39:11 PDT 1996
Article: 126574 of control
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel 
Control: cancel 
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 14:42:16 -0800
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cancel 


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Aug 11 22:39:13 PDT 1996
Article: 126583 of control
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel 
Control: cancel 
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From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Aug 12 07:54:42 PDT 1996
Article: 56773 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: auschwitz:myths and facts
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 14:31:03 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 45
Message-ID: 
References:  <4uer5l$ndi@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>  <4uhad7$si7@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> 
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In article , dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

> I wrote to Giwer:
> 
> ## It's just a statement: you're a lying piece of trash who
> ## accuses people of posting things they never posted.
> 
> Giwer knows it's true; he can't deny it or defend
> himself, so he resorts to posting Morgen's testimony.
> 
> Is there any psychologist in the audience? This man
> is obviously insane.

It certainly appears so. I think the Troll is definetely menatally and
emotionally disturbed. I'm still trying to figure out which specific
psychoses he suffers from. So far I think there is a good argument to be
made for _both_ functional and organic psychoses. 

> I was also wondering if Giwer's lies about me having
> posted this-and-that (which I never posted), are considered
> libel, or, at the least, a violation of internet
> ethics? I'm not talking about censorship here; I'm
> talking about a filthy liar who accuses me of posting
> things I never posted. I do not mean to censor Giwer,
> but should lies like this be tolerated?

No. Slander and libel should not be tolerated on the Internet anymore or
less than they are elsewhere- and should be remedied as they are
elsewhere. Even if the person espousing such is mentally and/or emotinally
unstable.

[snip]

Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Aug 12 13:05:53 PDT 1996
Article: 56856 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 06:39:54 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 61
Message-ID: 
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com>   <4tke3r$era@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <4tmcnp$60v@access1.digex.net> <4tn81d$21h@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <320135B3.2B0E@unb.ca> <4tuvr7$ga4@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <3204EF5B.4C89@unb.ca> <32050A0A.63CE@unb.ca> <4u3ce6$197@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4ud9pa$513@hil-news-svc-2.compuserve.com> <320A6DF1.5A31@unb.ca> <320A7820.6E07@unb.ca> <4uf16j$2k6@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <320E28F2.71F2@unb.ca>
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In article <320E28F2.71F2@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison  wrote:

The Troll bleated:

> >         You REFUSE to respond to me on the issue of the actual size of the
> > bone fragments.  You REFUSE to respond to me on current speed near the
> > banks and bottom.

The size of the bone fragments cab be adduced from the following:

Source: "Auschwitz Chronicle, 1939-1945 / Danuta Czech. - 1st American ed.
(ISBN 0-8050-0938-8); p. 642. (Ref: APMO, IZ-13/89, Various Documents of
the Third Reich, p. 205, Invoice Copy for Bookkeeping (origional in BA
Koblenz).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

June 7 [1944]

The management of the crematoriums in Auschwitz II orders four sieves from
the DAW for sifting through human ashes. The sieves are to be equipped
with an iron frame. The openings of the sieve screens are to be 2/5 inch
in size.**

** A former prisoner and member of the Special Squad, Szlama Dragon,
states during the H"oss Trial that the ashes of the burned corpses are
taken from the pits near the crematoriums, ground fine in special mortars,
and taken to the Sola River (APMO, Dpr.-ZO/28a, p. 127). 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This, obviously, means that the pulverized bone fragments, being sifted in
these seives, were 2/5 of an inch or _less_ in size.

The Troll has been told this many, many times but appears to be unable to
understand the concept of how sieves work due to being severely mentally
dysfunctional. (And an emottionally dysfunctional, and a socially
dysfunctional, and....) 

> And another thing.  How do you expect me to talk with someone using math
> if that person does not have the education to realize that 10 millimeters
> is the same size as 1 centimeter?

Easy. Talk to the Troll exactly as you would a brick wall. Though, I must
admit, talking to a brick wall is a bit more pleasant.... 

> Oh, I'm sorry, that's right.  In *your* universe, they aren't the same.

In the the Troll's universe _nothing_ is the same! 

Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Aug 12 13:05:54 PDT 1996
Article: 56883 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklon B: Kieselguhr & Gypsum
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 08:43:50 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 44
Message-ID: 
References: <4u1duj$1n0@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4u2gvo$ss@newsbf02.news.aol.com>  <4uehl5$4g7@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4uesoq$lfe@hades.rz.uni-sb.de> <320E193A.24DA@unb.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi148.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <320E193A.24DA@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison  wrote:

> Stefan Schneider wrote:
> > 
> > In article <4uehl5$4g7@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt
> > Giwer) wrote:
> > >And it is the umpteenth time (for those of you in Canada, that means
> > >many times) you have failed to note that "the greater part" is a
> > >technical term in German referring to exponential decrease.
> > 
> > I'm astonished to see Mr. Giwer knowing aspects of the german language
> > that hid from me for over thirty years.
> > Wenn Sie behaupten, dass es im Deutschen so etwas wie einen speziellen
> > technischen Ausdruck gaebe, der der 'groessere Teil' heisst und der
> > Meinung sind, dass dieser Ausdruck generell bedeutet, dass man bezug auf
> > irgendeinen Prozess einer exponentiellen Abnahme nimmt, dann sind Sie
> > furchtbar schief gewickelt.
> > Know what I mean?
> 
> I assume we can now add "German" to the list of items that Matt Giwer,
> The Self Proclaimed Master of All, knows nothing?
> 
> C'mon, Matt.  Let's see you try and talk your way out of your goof
> this time.  I'm sure the German speakers watching will be amused
> to no end.


Indeed. Just as they were when the Troll, in article
<4m736d$9i1@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, "revealed" the definition of
Leichenkeller to be:

"Keller = cellar.  Leichen = Leichen."

Surely, it must be a terrible burden to have an "IQ" of "163"....

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Aug 12 13:05:55 PDT 1996
Article: 56884 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!tribune.usask.ca!decwrl!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism,talk.politics.european-union
Subject: Re: Provide the "records," Mr. Hardy!
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 07:39:51 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 55
Message-ID: 
References:   <8b7cc$8321b.3aa@news.comet.net> <4ula04$ekg@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <8b7cc$14517.2f@news.comet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi148.rbi.com
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:82573 alt.revisionism:56884 talk.politics.european-union:5495

In article <8b7cc$14517.2f@news.comet.net>, georgeh@www.comet.chv.va.us
(George F. Hardy) wrote:

> In article <4ula04$ekg@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>,
kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) says:
> >
> >In article <8b7cc$8321b.3aa@news.comet.net>, 
> >georgeh@www.comet.chv.va.us (George F. Hardy) wrote:
> >
> >>According to German records, slightly more non Jewish Poles died
> >>in Auschwitz than Jewish.  The 14 million Holocaust deaths does 
> >>not include combat deaths or civilian casualties (collateral
> >>damage).
> >
> >I believe the appropriate scholastic response to this assertion is 
> >"bullshit."
> >
> >However, since you have made the claim, it is only reasonable
> >to ask you to support it. Please provide these "German
> >records" that state that more non-Jewish Poles died at
> >Auschwitz than Jewish. First, however, define "Jewish."
> >
> >Do you mean "Polish Jews" or "all Jews?"
> 
> 
> I'll look up the numbers.  "Poles" are non-Jewish.  And Polish
> Jew is counted as a Jew, not a pole.  As I remember the numbers,
> the correct numbers are about 375,000 Jews and 385,000 Poles.
> But I'll find the numbers within two days.

Given the above, it may be instructive to consider the (minimum) numbers,
according to Dr. Franciszek Piper of the Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum,
of Jews and Poles who were deported to Auschwitz (cf. _Anatomy_,
pp.68-70):

Jews..... 1,100,000 (205,000 registered)

Poles...... 150,000 (137,000 registered)

Then, of course, there is the fact that of the 1,100,000 (a minmum
estimate) killed at Auschwitz that 90%, or 990,000, were Jewish. (cf.
Ibid. p.62.) 

Mark


posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Aug 12 13:05:56 PDT 1996
Article: 56885 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.bc.net!info.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!newshub.csu.net!usc!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!zdc!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Cult and the EU
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 07:11:57 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 29
Message-ID: 
References:     <8b7cc$8321b.3aa@news.comet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi148.rbi.com
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:82574 alt.revisionism:56885

In article <8b7cc$8321b.3aa@news.comet.net>, georgeh@www.comet.chv.va.us
(George F. Hardy) wrote:

[snip]

> According to German records, slightly more non Jewish Poles died
> in Auschwitz than Jewish.  The 14 million Holocaust deaths does 
> not include combat deaths or civilian casualties (collateral
> damage).

And _which_ "German records" were these, exactly? Could these records have
been, perhaps, the Camp's Death Registry? The deaths of the victims from
"special actions," btw, weren't recorded in the Death Registry. Nor were
they _permanently_ recorded in any documentation at Auschwitz. All
information at Auschwitz regarding death tolls was destroyed after each
"special action" on the orders of Himmler. (cf. _Death Dealer_, pp.38-39.)


Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Aug 12 13:05:57 PDT 1996
Article: 56899 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!overload.lbl.gov!agate!howland.erols.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklon B: Kieselguhr & Gypsum
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 07:47:01 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 29
Message-ID: 
References: <4u1duj$1n0@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4u2gvo$ss@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <3204dfdc.490260@news.pacificnet.net>  <4ucq11$4ef@hades.rz.uni-sb.de> <4uehi3$4g7@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4uesdm$lfe@hades.rz.uni-sb.de> <4uh942$cn9@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <320C9CC0.47B9@rio.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi148.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <320C9CC0.47B9@rio.com>, Chuck Ferree  wrote:

> Matt Giwer wrote:
> > 
> > On 9 Aug 1996 08:21:10 GMT, s.schneider@rz.uni-sb.de (Stefan
> > Schneider) wrote:
> 
> Chuck Ferree wrote for Matt:
> 
> Giwer, what is your problem?
> 
> This man is a Phd. Professor of chemistry. You're in way over your 
> head. Arguing your limp bullshit with this or any other person who 
> obviously knows about 100% more than you do about the subject matter, 
> proves once again, that you are bluffing, lying and full of baloney.
> Better you should continue to chase but not catch fat broads.


100%? Try 1,000%! Try 10,000%! Try... er, you get my drift. };-> 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Aug 12 16:36:03 PDT 1996
Article: 56923 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Except from Rudolf Report -- Zyklon B
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 09:08:39 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 53
Message-ID: 
References: <4u7v5l$f7d@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <3209ea0c.853809@news.pacificnet.net>  <320c8ca2.563475@news.pacificnet.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi148.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article , dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
> 
> # Nizkor > Ftp > camps > "majdanek .004". A Soviet report
> # states they found gas tanks that were said to hold CO.
> 
> True, and I believe this gas bottle is still in Maidanek.
> Bottled CO was also used for some time in Belzec, but
> it was obviously easier to use an engine than to transport
> these large, heavy bottles, in great quantities, to the
> death camps.

Indeed. However, Zyklon B was also used at Maidanek. (cf. _Nazi Mass
Murder_, p.175.) 
 
> # The Zyklon B would be made after a number of steps and
> # transportations. The manufacture of the materials for the
> # carrier and shipping to Degesch, the manufacture of the 
> # HCN and shipping, the making of the product (under 
> # specialized conditions one would think), packaging in 
> # the cans, crating, shipping. Not to mention all the other
> # little expenses, man hours, clerical, worker, etc. 
> # Printing that had to be put on the side of the cans. 
> # Training teams, and a slue of other expense considerations.
> 
> This ignores the fact that it was already being manufactured
> in great quantities, and that all of what you talk about
> already existed. 
> 
> The point is moot. There were two main methods used to
> gas people: engine exhaust and Zyklon. Both were cheap
> and easy. Wirth chose method A, Hoess chose method B. Not
> much more to it. 
> 
> Different people will choose different methods. Like generals
> using a different strategy during a war. Or chess players
> using a different strategy during a game. 

Or, like at Maidanek, _both_ C02 and Zyklon B were chosen as homicidal agents. 

[snip]

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Aug 12 16:36:07 PDT 1996
Article: 56925 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!mr.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 10:14:17 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 94
Message-ID: 
References:  <4ul0pl$ehk@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi148.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4ul0pl$ehk@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
(Ehrlich606) wrote:

> In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
> (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
> 
> >In article <4ue5te$ug@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
> >(Ehrlich606) wrote:
> >
> >[snip]
> >
> >> OK, since you put it like that then I am in agreement that we should
> >> agree to disagree.  Pressac's explanation is _possible_ but in my 
> >> opinion not _probable_.
> >
> >And _why_ is Pressac's theory, in your opinion, not "_probable_"? 
> >
> >I'm all ears. 
> 
> The simplest reason why I do not buy the explanation is that there is no
> necessity for it.  Whether Pressac's concerns about throughput are
> accurate or not, the fact remains that to cremate all of these people
> would require an entire 24 hour period, and that is even assuming the
> extremely generous cremation times calculated by the Sovet Special
> Commission on Auschwitz (USSR-8).  

Really? Consider, for example, the first gassing in Krema II: 1,492 Jews
on March 13, 1943 (_Anatomy_, p.232). Assuming the _conservative_
Bauletung estimate of the  incineration throughput for Krema II of 1,440
corpses for a 24-hour period (Ibid. p.165) and assuming several hours to
get all the victims undressed and into the gas chamber where they were
killed; incinerating the victims would have probably taken no more than
about 30 hours or so. Given that transports of victims _didn't_ arrive
every 24-hours all (or even most of) the time (cf. _Auschwitz
Chronicles_), and that _other_ Kremas were available when they did, it is
hard to see how your objections have any merit. 

This becomes even more obvious when one considers that, according to
eyewitness testimony, in practice the incineration throughputs of the
Kremas exceeded the Bauletung's estimates by a significant degree (cf.
Ibid. pp.166,180). Assuming a (middle) incineration throughput 2,700
corspes per 24-hour period for Krema II (and II), as claimed by Ho"ss, it
becomes self-evident that in all but a few instances the victims of a
homicidal gassing in Krema II (and III) could be incinerated within 24
hours. 

> Since no one would therefore be using a Krema for at least a day after 
> a mass gassing, because all of the previous days victims would have to be 
> cremated first (perhaps some dozens could have been laid up in the 
> Crematoria itself)  it follows that time-tabling the gassing event 
> with such precision makes no sense at all.  

Not at all. You are trying to equate the specific details of the gassing
procedure to that of incineration throughput. Apple and oranges, I'm
afraid. The fact remains that, for instance, during much of 1943, Krema V
was _idled_ because of incineration _overcapacity_ and was brought back
on-line only in 1994 for Aktion Ho"ss (cf. _Anatomy_, pp.236-238). The
extermination of the Hungarian Jews (Aktion Ho"ss) was the only period,
aside from the intial gassings in bunkers 1 and 2 in early 1943 (when
Kremas II-V were being constructed and brought on-line), when the pace of
homicidal gassings overwhelmed the incineration capcity of the Kremas
(Krema I in early 1943) and it was required to augment them with
incineration pits. 

> Under such circumstances, a generous gassing time of even 30 minutes and 
> _then_ ventilation for even another 20 minutes would hardly make a dent
in the 
> time requirements before  the LK could be used again.

Indeed. But that is _not_ what is at issue, now is it? What _is_ at issue
is simply whether or not Pressac's theory that Ho"ss and Nysizli were
mistaken, due to their subjective circumstances, in assuming that the
ventilation system was switched on 20 or 30 minutes _after_ the Zyklon B
was admninistered. Given that _other_ witnessess (Dr. Bendel for example)
claim that gas chambers (Krema V's) were ventilated as soon as _five_
minutes after the Zyklon B was administered. In addition, please consider
that both Ho"ss and Nyiszli also claimed death came in a matter of minutes
for the victims. One cannot simply refute the possibility (as you do) that
the ventilation system could have been turned on much sooner than  Ho"ss
and Nyiszli report due simply to incineration throughput (or lack thereof)
and claim (with a straight face) that a credible argument has been made. 

Care to try again? Perhaps this time you might stay focused on the details
of the gassing procedure and not go off on such tangents? 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Aug 12 17:09:56 PDT 1996
Article: 56938 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!zdc!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 06:43:53 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 42
Message-ID: 
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <3209EB69.6D45@gryn.org> <4uf0ra$kno@sj <4ujfcl$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi148.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article , dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
> 
> # You really do need to catch up on the conference material.  
> 
> You really do need to seek medical help.
> 
> # That is one of many I and others have posted.  For example 
> # eyewitnesses have conclusively proven that HCN and CO are 
> # on the same order of lethality.  
> 
> No. One witness said that death in the Treblinka gas
> chambers took 15 minutes. Most witnesses give a longer
> time.
> 
> Moreover, while a given concentration of CO is surely
> not as lethal as the same concentration of HCN, don't
> you agree that a high concentration of CO may be as
> lethal as a low concentration of HCN?
> 
> The Holtz-Elliot paper reports that running a diesel rich
> can result with up to 6 percent CO. Moreover, there are
> other toxic gases in the exhaust (like NO2).
> 
> You're so stupid, Giwer, it's amazing that you can breathe.

I suspect the Troll resorts to osmosis. Especially during times of
respitory stress... like when he tries to think. 

Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Aug 12 17:09:57 PDT 1996
Article: 56943 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci3!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: gassing evidence bears interest
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 06:59:41 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 31
Message-ID: 
References: <4u3gqb$f9d@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>  <4ueu6p$kcd@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>   <839684195snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi148.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <839684195snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>, A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk wrote:

> In article 
>            mvanalst@rbi.com "Mark Van Alstine" writes:
> 
> After
> > scraping the white substance that covered these objects back to the metal,
> > 7.2 grammes of scrapings were collected and subjected to two qualitative
> > analyses, which established the presence of cyanide compounds. The report,
> > signed by Dr. Jan Z Robel, was written on 15th December 1945 and
> > transmitted to the Examining Judge, Jan Sehn." 
> 
> Ah yes, Jan Sehn, the man who also adduced "evidence" that a hundred tonnes
> of bone pulp had been sold to a commercial concern.

Ah yes, argumentum ad hominem. Obviously, Al, you can't rebut the fact
that chemical anlysis of the grates showed cyanide compounds, so you must
resort to character assasination. 

How typical. 


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Aug 12 20:56:47 PDT 1996
Article: 56984 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.infi.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.bluesky.net!gatech!arclight.uoregon.edu!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BEHOLD THE LIE
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 12:56:53 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 28
Message-ID: 
References: <31e50451.3235741@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <31e50451.3235741@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) wrote:

>                 Behold the lie, tell your friends.

[re-posted Moranic(tm) garbage snipped]

For a rebuttal of Moran's post detailing his outright lies, malicious
distortions,  propensity for propaganda, rampant anti-Semitism, and his
delusional state of mind, please refer to:

http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies/behold-the-liar

For further examples of Moran's scurrilous behavior please refer to:

http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-beliefs.960704
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/intellectual-depravity

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Aug 13 08:05:42 PDT 1996
Article: 57010 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 10:32:10 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 32
Message-ID: 
References:  <4uei1p$blq@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4uei1p$blq@newsbf02.news.aol.com>  <4ujjj5$4qbk@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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In article <4ujjj5$4qbk@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord
McFee) wrote:

> In message  -  writes:
> :>
> :>In article <4uei1p$blq@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa)
wrote:
> :>
> :>> The shadows indicate that the picture was taken
> :>> in early morning, for a Polish January/February
> :>> on a mildly windy day.  
> :>
> :>Hmmm. Curiouser and curiouser.... I'd very _much_ like for you, Mr. Allen,
> :>to explain- in detail -how you "determined" the the date from the shadow
> :>angle. I'm sure it will be "interesting."  
> 
> I suspect that Mr. Allen was being a tad sarcastic, Mark.

Perhaps, but one _never_ knows for _sure_ when deniers are being "a tad
sarcastic" and when they are being, er, _deniers_. It's hard to tell as
they change their story like the direction of a mild early morning wind on
a Polish winter day.... };-> 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Aug 13 08:05:43 PDT 1996
Article: 57027 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!decwrl!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!noos.hooked.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: I'm not a revisionist but here's a thought
Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 15:06:52 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 27
Message-ID: 
References: <4u57d7$a9d@nntp.igs.net> <32079501.994@c2.org> <4u9m12$59j@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
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In article ,
schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

[snip]

> It's amazing how many times Mr. Giwer's arguments drop down to the level
> of a 5 year old.

Actually, Sara, what is amazing (to me at least) is when, on those rare
few occaisons, the Troll's arguments rises _above_ the level of a five
year-old. 

The sayings of "once in a blue moon" or "in a month of Sundays" springs to
mind.... 


Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Aug 13 08:05:43 PDT 1996
Article: 57057 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Provide the "records," Mr. Hardy!
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 19:43:20 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 26
Message-ID: 
References:  <4ula04$ekg@nizkor. <8c7cc$9203.16@news.comet.net> <8c7cc$e182a.1b0@news.comet.net> 
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In article , dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

> [Followup = alt.revisionism]
> 
> georgeh@www.comet.chv.va.us (George F. Hardy) writes:
> 
> # Camp           Jews           Poles
> # Auschwitz    205,000        137,000
> 
> Perhaps you'll explain where you dug these figures from.

If I recall correctly, they are the numbers of the Jews and Poles deported
to Auschwitz and _registered_. (cf. _Anatomy_, pp.68-70.) 

[snip]

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Aug 13 08:05:44 PDT 1996
Article: 57083 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Saugervermoegens of Zyklon Carriers
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 21:04:50 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 102
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In article <4uoe8k$r2c@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
(Ehrlich606) wrote:

> The following is from Peters, bottom of page 60, top of page 61, available
> at the Nizkor site.  You can check my translation against that.
> 
> Particular difficulties are involved with the choice of material 
> for their absorbency (Aufsaugung).  In this regard, many useless or only
> slightly useful experiments were made. .... [p. 61] The patented process
> of using felt appears practically over, since felt, in spite of its good
> sucking ability (Saugervermoegens) remains too voluminous and and
> therefore is inclined to give off part of the prussic acid with a light
> squeeze or blow.  Also the much more versatile (mehrfach empfohlene)
> Silica gel, in its normal trade form, is not suitable as a medium for
> absorbing prussic acid because it forms a sticky paste with it (mit
> Blausauere eine kittartige Paste bildet).  Recently, Half coke (Halbkoks)
> was put forth as a carrier material, but the sucking ability
> (Saugfahigkeit) of this material is much too strong....
> 
> Therefore there are now three porous materials, namely roasted kieselguhr
> in kernel form (Diagreiss), a special gypsum product prepared in cube form
> (Erco), and a particularly absorbent and chemically faultless wood product
> in disc form.  These three products combine good absorbency, strong
> structure, low alkalinity, and and low water retention (Wassergehalt).
> 

All _very_ interesting. I'd like to point out, however, that kieselguhr is
diatomaceous earth (i.e. silica) It seems odd that "roasted" (i.e
_heated_) kieselguhr (a.k.a. silica) does not form a sticky paste while
silica gel (a.k.a. silica) does. Also, silica gel, lest we forget, "after
being heated cannot easily be reconverted into a sol" and "such a gel is
in the form of hard granules, chemically and physically almost inert but
highly hygrospcopic...." (_The Penguin Dictionary of Chemistry_, p.358.)
Hmmm, this sounds like "roasted kieselguhr in kernel form...." Except for
the color.

Furthermore, it also seems odd that, in NI-9912, diagreiss was attributed
to be "a reddish brown granular mass" while Erco was "small blue cubes." 
Silica, whether diatomaceous earth or silica gel (non-indicating), is
generally whitish to grayish in color. What could have been added to
diagreiss to give it a "reddish brown" color? What could have been added
to Erco to give it its blue color? 

Interestingly, cobalt chloride can be "obtained as red crystals of
CoCl2*6H2O from aqueous solution, CoCl2,H2O and CoCl2 are blue...." (Ibid.
p.103.) And what  would this have to do with silica gel (or possibly
diagreiss)? "Cobalt(II) compounds are often incorporated in the [silica]
gel. When the gel has absorbed a fair amount of moisture it will turn pink
but will revert to blue on heating." (Ibid. p.358.)  

I wonder if the incorporation of CoCl2*6H2O, a cobalt(II) compound, would
cause diagreiss to appear "reddish brown," while adding CoCl2, also a a
cobalt(II) compound, to silica gel would cause it to look blue? 

Perhaps our chemists would care to comment? 

> A FEW OBSERVATIONS:
> 
> 1)  I apologize for thinking that *Saugervermoegens* is a funny word.

You are forgiven. Go forth and pun no more.... };-> 

> 2)  Silica gel forms a paste with prussic acid.  How could it have been
> used?

More importantly, is _your_ translation correct? Given that some of your
past dalliances with properly quoting text left something to be deisred,
suffice it to say I am somewhat wary. A second, more trusted, opinion is
definetely in order here.... 

Perhaps our German linguists would care to comment? 

> 3)  Erco is defined as a gypsum product.  That corresponds to the color
> picture of Zyklon at Nizkor, by the way.  

So does silica gel. Either indicating or non-indicating. 

> But Rudolf says that gypsum has a slower release time that straight
*diagreiss*.  Someone else will have to figure it out.

Rudolf says...? BZZT! Sorry, wrong answer. Rudolf also lies. 

> 4)  I am even more inclined to think that witnesses who saw blue Zyklon
> were psychologically suggested by the German (cognate in Yiddish) name for
> *prussic acid* = *Blau sauere* = *Blue Acid*

Indeed. You have shown yourself inclined to think many things. Quite a few
of those things you "think" without much thought, apparantly. Not to
mention you keep changing what you "think" as the situation suits you. You
also tend to leave your "thoughts" twisting in the wind. A stellar
argument, IMHO, for your penchant to play (revel in?) the role of a denier
bellwether.... 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Aug 13 11:40:49 PDT 1996
Article: 57106 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!psgrain!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: OLD FAT FOOL SEEKING  YOUNG FAT BROAD
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 19:33:23 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 27
Message-ID: 
References: <4ug0hq$kpq@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> <4uo5r0$23r6@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi148.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4uo5r0$23r6@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord
McFee) wrote:

> In message <4ug0hq$kpq@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> - mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt
> Giwer)9 Aug 1996 18:37:46 GMT writes:
> :>
> :>Having just received my latest shipment of ginseng extract, I am currently 
> :>feeling rather frisky, and find my self burdened with a paupacity of female 
> :>companionship.
> :>In particular, I am seeking a nubile fatbroad of the holohugger
persuasion. If 
> :>she is Canadian, even better.
> 
> You're good Marduk.

Entertaining, isn't he? (Bad Marduk! Baaaad Marduk! Forging posts again!
Tsk tsk...) }:-> 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Aug 13 14:06:26 PDT 1996
Article: 129975 of control
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel 
Control: cancel 
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From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Aug 13 14:06:27 PDT 1996
Article: 130008 of control
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel 
Control: cancel 
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From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Aug 13 23:12:29 PDT 1996
Article: 57152 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Meets His Match
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 15:08:49 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 29
Message-ID: 
References: <4u9gur$29s@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4udm57$7h3@shiva.usa.net> <4uf3u6$36d@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4ukm19$e4b@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2594 alt.revisionism:57152

In article <4ukm19$e4b@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>, Nele Abels
 wrote:

> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
> >On 8 Aug 1996 21:28:07 GMT, hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:
> 
> [...]
> >Otherwise you are ignored.  
> [...]
> 
> >You will note that I respond to perhaps one in ten of your posts at
> >most.  
> >That is all you are worth at best.  
> 
> Giwer-tactic: putting fingers in the ears and running away when 
> outwitted.

Hmmm. That would imply that he is permanently deaf and running a marathon
every day.... 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Aug 13 23:12:30 PDT 1996
Article: 57179 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust extermination claims
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 14:53:18 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 243
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In article <4uq2dn$h5a@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
(Ehrlich606) wrote:

> In article ,
> jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) writes:
> 
> First of all, I want to thank Jamie for summarizing some of Pressac's
> arguments.  If Pressac's book was more widely distributed then it wouldn't
> be necessary to get these arguments second hand.
> 
> >And indeed, Pressac demonstrates in his "complementary proof" (ibid),
> >with drawing 2197 and photographs he has taken from inside the gas
> >chamber as it stands today, that the showerheads were dummies.
> >
> >He even goes so far as to calculate the number of showerheads which
> >would have been required for Leichenkeller 1, based on average areas
> >covered by showerheads in six other buildings at Auschwitz.  By his
> >calculations, one would expect that 115 showerheads would be required
> >per Leichenkeller (ibid), but only 14 were planned and installed.
> >Pressac spares no effort to find many corroborations of his proof.
> 
> This is an instance of a place where I have a problem with Pressac's
> reasoning.  The Leichenkeller is about 100 feet by 25 feet.  I can
> visualize this.  And, I can visualize a communal shower in such a space,
> for which 14 shower heads would be sufficient.  Such is my experience with
> communal showers, anyway.  But _115_ showerheads?  Not in any communal
> shower I have ever seen, either in the service or in school.  Not to
> mention the water pressure to operate such an extravaganza, or the water
> wastage that would result.  So, without questioning Pressac's conclusion,
> I consider this a weak criminal trace.

Faulty reasoning on your part, actually. Simply because _you_ haven't seen
a communal shower with large numbers of showerheads you dismiss Pressac's
argument? Or simply because _you_ rationalize that 14 shower heads in a
"sauna" measuring 30m x 7m x 2.4m "would be sufficient" you dismiss
Pressac's argument?

But what did the _Nazis_ think "would be [a] sufficient" number of
showerheads in a communal shower at Auschwitz? I would argue (as does Mr.
McCarthy) that the answer can be found by examining the construction
drawings and photos of the Zentral Sauna (and other similar facilities) at
Auschwitz. In the Bauleitung drawing 1841 (an initial drawing which was
unrealized) one can see that the Brauseraum (shower room) contained 54
showerheads in a room measuring approximately 10m x 8m. (_Technique_,
p.68.) Clearly, early on the _Nazis_ thought that a communal shower needed
more showerheads than _you_ do. 

Considering that Bauleitung drawing 1841 was never realized, it would be
best to  reference a drawing that _was_ realized to forstall the
inevitable denier objections. I then would bring to your attention
Bauleitung drawing 3084 (Ibid. p.76.). The shower room of this drawing, by
my count, shows 50 showerheads in the shower room, which by my
measurement, is about 11m x 8m. In addition, Photo 25 (Ibid. p.80), shows
(at least) 30 of these 50 showerheads.

Yet L.Keller 1, which measured 30m x 7m, having nearly 2.4 times the area
as the shower room in the Zentral Sauna, contained less than 1/3 the
number of (faux) showerheads. Put it another way, the shower room in the
Zentral Sauna had one showerhead per 1.76 sq m of floorspace . K.Keller 1,
other the otherhand, had one (faux) showerhead per 15 sq. m of floorspace.


And you see nothing _wrong_ with this picture? (Besides the fact that the
showerheads in L.Keller 1 were _non-functional_.) Amazing. Must by that
blind eye of your's acting up again.... 

> >I should point out that revisionists, up until the publication of
> >Pressac's work, considered the Leichenkeller 1 to be morgues, Leuchter
> >of course leading the way.  Pressac demolished that argument with his
> >numerous demonstrations that the room was for gassing.  In response,
> >revisionists like Mattogno have started arguing that the room was for
> >_delousing_ gassing (never mind that they contradict other
> >revisionists, principally Leuchter).  But Pressac _also_ anticipated
> >_that_ argument and eliminated it as well.
> 
> Leuchter, Krakow, and Rudolf have all found small traces of HCN in the
> walls.  That means either cyanide gas that is not allowed to linger
> (convention), fumigated once (Leuchter), or null values (Rudolf).  

> From what I understand, Mattogno has found documentation in Moscow 
> stating that the room was marked off as *Entlauesungskammer* i.e., 
> delousing chamber, but this is supposed to mean in the showering sense. 

Hardly a revelation. It is known from eyewitness testimonies that the gas
chambers were labeled with signs that said, in essense, "Zum Baden und
Desinfektion" (to bath and disinfection), "Bath and disinfecting Room," or
"To disinfection." (cf. Tauber, Ibid. p.483; Nyiszli, _Auschwitz_, p.49;
Broad, _KL Auschwitz_, p.177.) In addition, the victims were _also_ told
that they were going to be bathed and deloused. (cf. Ho"ss, _Death
Dealer_,  p.43; Broad, _KL Aushwitz_, p.175.)

> ...Van Pelt has a photo of a document in his latest book that claims that 
> 19 (or some similar number) gas chambers were designed for the Auschwitz.  
> I look at the drawing, I see what look to be cubicles (i.e., like shower 
> cubicles) and they are marked on the drawing *Entlauesungskammern*.

Full citation, please. On what page, exactly, was this mentioned? What
page was the photo on? 

> Query:  were showers ever referred to as *delousing chambers* at any
> location? 

Not to my knowledge. The delousing chambers were strictly for the 
articles of clothing and other personal effects taken from the prisoners
and victims. The series of Bauleitung drawings 801, 1293, 1715, and 2540,
for the delousing installations (buildings BW5a and BW5b) loacated in the
Womens' Camp clearly delineates between the delousing facilities and the
shower room: "Gaskammer" vs, "Wasch und Brauseraum" or "Kammer" vs.
"Brauseraum". (cf. _Technique_, pp.55-58.)

BTW, the shower room (Bauleitung drawing 2540) also clearly shows that it
too had 50 showerheads in the shower room which measured about 14m x 9m.
(Ibid. p.58.)  

> Is it possible to combine HCN in any concentration with water for
> delousing purposes?  I am open here.

Yes. Photos 22, 23, and 24 (_Technique_, p.79) show a shallow concrete
trough (located in the Zentral Sauna) that held a solution of water and
prussic acid and was used to disinfest the prisoners. The caption to the
photos reads:

"Three views of the shallow bath situated at the entrance to the showers,
filled with water and hydrocyanic acid in which the prisoners' body hair
was disinfested just before the shower." (Ibid.) 

In addition, the following excerpt, an adaptation of a letter from a
former Czech prisoner to the head of the PMO, also helps clarify the
procedure:

"Before the shower and during the disinfestation, the prisoners underwent
a disinfesting treatment. Just inside the entrance door to the showers [in
the Zentral Sauna] there was a small concrete bath full of a mixture of
water and hydrocyanic acid, obtained by pouring Zyklon-B crystals in the
water. The prisoners arriving for his shower, naked and with his head
shaved, stepped into this basin and another stationed alongside the basin,
his hand protected by a glove, passed the mixture over his head, under the
arms and over the pubic hair." (Ibid.) 

Needless to say, no such troughs appear on the drawings for the Kremas and
no eyetwitness testimony, to my knowledge, mentions such a trough in the
Kremas. 

> >His "supplementary proof" is that an inventory of Leichenkeller 1 of
> >Krema II contained 4 wire mesh introduction devices and 4 wooden covers
> >(pp. 429-430).  These could only be used to exterminate human beings.
> >As he points out, we have everything but signed affidavits to the
> >murders themselves:  "It would be too much to expect the SS to have
> >formally written that Zyclon-B was poured into these introduction
> >devices." (p. 430)
> 
> Again, the only problem I have with these devices is that while they may
> be listed on the inventory I have never seen one of things...

Just because _you_ never saw a wire mesh introduction column doesn't mean
they never existed! (Such a _subjective_ world view you have! Tsk tsk.)
The fact is that they were removed from the L.Keller when the Kremas II
and II were dismantled. Along with, for instance the gas-tight door to
L.Kller 1 and the benches that were in L.Keller 2. (A gas-tight door- with
a heavy wire grid covering the peephole -and benches were revovered in the
Auschwizt Bauhof in 1945. [cf. Ibid. p.486.) 

>...and apparently neither has anyone else.

David Ole`re did. He even drew the wire mesh introduction column in the
background of a sketch he made in 1946 that depicted the "dentists"
extracting the gold teeth from the bodies of the victims who were killed
in the gas chambers. (Ibid. Document 31, p.493.) 

Michal Kula did. One can see a drawing of the introduction column based on
his June 11, 1945, deposition that looks like the one in Ole`re's sketch.
(cf. Ibid. 487.) 

Henryk Tauber did. He described the wire mesh introduction columns in his
deposition taken at the Ho"ss Trial. It sounds like the one described in
the drawing made from Kula' deposition. (cf. Ibid. pp.483-484.) 

Nyiszli did. His description is similar to Tauber's. (cf. Nyiszli,
_Auschwitz_, p.50.) 

And you claim "apparently" nobody else saw the wire mesh Zyklon B
introduction columns? Telling whoppers, are we now? Tsk tsk. You should
_know_ better- especially as _I've_ informed _you_ about Tauber, Nyiszli,
and Kula(?) before.  

> >And Pressac has other proofs as well.  He cites documents which refer to
> >Leichenkeller 2, the room next to Leichenkeller 1, as an "undressing
> >room" (pp. 432-434, 438).  Why would the Nazis need a room where a
> >thousand or more people could undress simultaneously, unless, of
> >course, they were about to be killed in the adjoining room?  There's an
> >order for an urgently-needed peephole with a double layer of 8 mm thick
> >glass.  (p. 434)  Why would two layers of third-of-an-inch-thick glass
> >be required for the peephole in a morgue?
> 
> The problem you have with this is that the undressing room is about 175
> feet by 25 feet.  I have seen undressing rooms for bathers at swimming
> pools that are crowded for undressing purposes with just a couple hundred
> people inside.  Yet, there is this insistence on a thousand, two thousand,
> three thousand ....

Your appeals to incredulity (not to mention your ersatz "authority") are
wearing thin. Obviously, you have no substantial rebuttal and must instead
wave your hands and say it cannot be Because! Ehrlich606! Says! So!

Talk about lowest common (denier) denominators! 

> >In his "39 criminal traces" section, he doesn't even mention the
> >architectural modifications to the Krema, which also establish clearly
> >that the rooms were not morgues.  (pp. 267-331)
> 
> such as?

The elimination of the corspe chutes and the addition of a stairway
leading to the basement antechamber between L.Kellers 1 and 2. Also the
addition of the western access stairway to L.Keller 2. 

> >Nor does he mention
> >the photographs which corroborate the existence of the wire mesh
> >introduction devices and their "little chimneys" (pp. 340-342).  Again,
> >this is because these are merely _corroborating_ evidence, not _proof_,
> >by Pressac's phenomenally strict standards.
> >
> 
> Again, what photos do you mean, unless it is the crate photograph or the
> aerial photos.  I am listening to you here. 

The very one. The one which you (and Mr. Allen) keep flip-flopping over in
your claims as to what the "little chimneys" are. The ones you are purely
_speculating_ as to what the "little chimneys" are while dogmatically
ignoring the plentitude of evidence for their being part of the Zyklon B
introduction system for L.Keller 1. 

Mark

posted/e-mailed to Mr. McCarthy

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug 14 08:50:53 PDT 1996
Article: 57199 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: listen up, Alec G.
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 15:33:56 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 39
Message-ID: 
References: <094_9608031133@tor250.org> <32042ADD.51A2@infinop.com> <4u1duj$1n0@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <32075137.6FD4@gryn.org> <4u9erm$1rb@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <320A6041.1F3C@unb.ca> <4uf2tr$l8c@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com> <320BB56C.7AF1@unb.ca> <4ujqje$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <320E2061.381B@unb.ca> <4umq1o$94q@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <3210d150.407794244@news.zilker.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi146.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <3210d150.407794244@news.zilker.net>, mike@aimetering.com (Mike
Curtis) wrote:

> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
> 

[snip]

> >In fact the FIRST post on the sieve size said that was .4 inches which
> >I translated into in 1 cm.  

Indeed. At least the Troll got _that_ part right. Of course, the Troll
immediately flubbed it by insisting that this meant that the bone
fragments sifted were _larger_ than 1 cm. Obviously, the Troll is
spatially challanged and  is confused as to how how sieves operate and the
purpose they are were used by the Nazis to sift the bone fragments. 

First the human remains were pulverized. Then they were placed into the
sieves and sifted. This meant that the bone fragments _smaller_ than 1 cm
(most _much_ smaller due to being finely pulverized) fell through the
sieve. These were then disposed of. The remaining bone fragments were then
again mixed with human remains and (re-)pulverized. This, in essence,
would generally preclude bone fragments that were sifted and then disposed
of from being larger than 1 cm in size.

Why has this been too hard for the Troll to comprehend? Perhaps it is due
to his racist obsessions and need to diddle himself? 

[snip]

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug 14 08:50:54 PDT 1996
Article: 57237 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 11:21:03 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 26
Message-ID: 
References: <7aH3oOev1iBC065yn@login.dknet.dk> <4ullr4$4vf@news.enter.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi146.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article , olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole
Kreiberg) wrote:

[snip]

> Danish citizens would of course not be deported. However some people will 
> lose their Danish citizenship because they no longer qualify ethnically. 
> Having lost their citizenship and not been granted a residence permit they 
> will have their status changed to illegal aliens and then treated 
> accordingly.

In other words, Danish citizens will be, stripped of their citizenship,
rounded up, imprisoned in "transit camps," and then "treated accordingly."

Can we say "deja vu?" Do you plan to send them to the Ostland too,
Mr.Kreiberg?  

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug 14 08:50:55 PDT 1996
Article: 57243 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: gassing evidence bears interest
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 16:31:45 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 37
Message-ID: 
References: <4u3gqb$f9d@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>  <4ueu6p$kcd@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>   <839684195snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>  <839890218snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> 
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In article <839890218snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>, A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk wrote:

> In article 
>            mvanalst@rbi.com "Mark Van Alstine" writes:
> > > Ah yes, Jan Sehn, the man who also adduced "evidence" that a hundred 
> > > tonnes of bone pulp had been sold to a commercial concern.
> > 
> > Ah yes, argumentum ad hominem. Obviously, Al, you can't rebut the fact
> > that chemical anlysis of the grates showed cyanide compounds, so you must
> > resort to character assasination. 
> > 
> > How typical. 
> 
> Ad hominem has nothing to do with it. For the communist there is no such 
> thing as truth: there is bourgeois truth and there is proletarian truth. 
> I wonder how much of this stuff you've read. You wouldn't take at face 
> value everything the Weltdienst churned out about the Jews, so why are 
> you so uncritical of Sehn and company?

It's not that I'm "so uncritical of Sehn and company," Al. I'm critical of
Al Baron & Co. For very good reasons: You're a Holocaust denier,
anti-Semite and a proven liar who likes to dabble in Nazi apologia. 

Your above argumentum ad hominem simply reinforces this opinion. When
confronted with facts and hard evidence (especially when your lies are
exposed) you inevitably resort to ad hominem attacks and/or gratuitous
anti-Semitic insults. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug 14 08:50:55 PDT 1996
Article: 57255 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: auschwitz:myths and facts
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 16:09:15 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 76
Message-ID: 
References: <4tuuee$5k2@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4u2kka$255@newsbf02.news.aol.com>  <4u9glq$29s@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4ugeru$l3s@arl-news-svc-2.compuserve.com> <4uk118$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4uqic1$dqn@arl-news-svc-5.compuserve.com>
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In article <4uqic1$dqn@arl-news-svc-5.compuserve.com>,
100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
> 
> >On Fri, 09 Aug 1996 22:44:19 GMT, 100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav
> >Bilik) wrote:
> 
> >>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
> 
> >>>>Indeed. The gas chambers of Krema II and III were ventilated with outside
> >>>>air. During the _summer_ when the outside air temperature was _higher_
> >>>>than the temperature in the gas chambers. Ergo, the gas chambers were
> >>>>preheated. (During the winter the gas chambers were preheated with buckets
> >>>>of red-hot coke.) 
> 
> >>>It is amazing what you folks will fabricate when you you are
> >>>desperate.  As we all know, not even a fan has been found much less
> >>>the specification for the fan...


>From  Document 39 (_Technique_, p. 377):

=============================================================================

                 Recapitulatory table of motor powers

[The figure are expressed in kW/HP and those underlined are those of the
origional document]

+-------------+---------------------+-------------------+-------------------+
|             | Requirements as per |   Distribution 1  |  Distribution 2   |
| Designation | corrospondance of   |---------+---------|---------+---------|
| of Rooms    | 3-12 February 194   | Kr. II  | Kr. III | Kr. II  | Kr/ III |
+-------------+---------------------+---------+---------+---------+---------+
|     :       |          :          |   :     |   :     |    :    |   :     |
      :                  :              :         :          :        :
+-------------+---------------------+---------+---------+---------+---------+
| L-KELLER 1/ |   2,6/3,5           | 3,3/4,5 | 2,5/3,4 | 2,6/3,5 | 2,6/3,5 |  
| Gas chamber |       ---   N° 450  |     --- | ---     |     --- | ---     |
+-------------+---------------------+---------+---------+---------+---------+
|     :       |          :          |   :     |   :     |    :    |   :     |
      :                  :              :         :          :        :
 
=============================================================================

In addition, a drawing of the noncorroding wooden ventilator, the type
initially used in Krema II, can be seen on p. 229 of _Anatomy_. The
drawing was reproduced from Bruno Eck's _Ventilatoren_, 3rd edition
(Berlin: Springer-Verlag, 1957), p. 388. The first edition of the book was
published in 1937.

> >>>...much less the drawings of the preheating chamber. 

The Troll has confused himself again. (A frequent occurance, evidently!)
There was no "preheating chamber." The _gas chambers_ themselves were
preheated. There are _numerous_ drawings of the gas chambers. 

> >>It's funny, or better I have to say that it is sad. The exhaust fans
> >>were retrieved right after the war. It was a lot of CN- on the fans.
> >>It's well known and you certainly knew this.
> 
> >       You make it up as you go along.  
> 
> Auschwitz Museum, P.H.T. 11 K-73 and 24 K1-16. The grids of the fans.


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug 14 08:50:56 PDT 1996
Article: 57263 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re:   Wieder mit dem "Ausrottung" Wahnsinn.
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 20:15:33 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 75
Message-ID: 
References: <4un732$m7d@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <4urant$3un@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4urant$3un@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
(Ehrlich606) wrote:

> In article <4un732$m7d@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>,
> abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels) writes:
> 
> >Obviously "Ausrottung aller Nichtjuden" means "Killing of all non-Jews"
> here. So why not "extermination"?
> 
> Because I am a native English speaker. In English, *extermination* is only
> heard with regard to the killing off of vermin in one's house or backyard.

Playing such denier semantic games is rather pathetic. The _English_
meaning of the word "extermination" is quite clear. Killing. As in wiping
out, annihilate, destroy entirely. It is not semantically restricted to
_just_ vermin, but can be -and is- used broadly. It certainly does _not_
preclude being used in regards to people. 

_Webster's New World Dictionary_, Third College Edition (1993):

exterminate vt. -nated, -nating  [< L _exterminatus_, pp. of
_exterminare_, lit., to drive beyond the boundaries, hence drive out,
destroy < ex-, out + _terminus_, boundry; see TERM] to destroy or get rid
of entirely, as by killing; wipe out; annihilate - extermination n.

SYN. -exterminate implies the complete, wholesale destruction of things or
living beings whose existance is considered undesireable; extirpate and
eradicate both suggest the extinction or abolition of something, extirpate
implying the deliberate and violent destruction at the very source so that
the thing cannot be regenerated, and eradicate connoting less violence
and, often the working of natural processes or a methodical plan. 

> I have never heard the word in any other sense (except of course, in
> translations of Himmler).  One never even hears about the *extermination*
> of American Indians, unless someone is trying to make a bad polical
> argument, even though in some places that is more or less what happened.  

Oh, get real. What do you think the definition of _genocide_ implies? 

genocide n.  [Gr _genos_, race, kind (see GENUS) + -CIDE: first applied to
the attempted extermination of the Jews by Nazi Germany] the systematic
killing of, or a program of action intended to destroy, a whole national
or ethnic group -genocidal adj. (Ibid.)

"First applied to the attempted extermination of the Jews by Nazi Germany."
                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> The word conjures up a specific imagery of spraying with deadly
> insecticides.  Although many will argue that that was what Holocaust
> _was_, I don't think it is correct to translate that _one word_ as
> *exterminate* at the beginning of the famous passage in Himmler's speech.

Pathetic. Simply pathetic. The word, irregardless of what "specific
imagery" it  "conjures up" for _you_ to allow you to jump through your
denier hoops, can unequivocably be used to denote the "wholesale
destruction" -the annihilation- of "living beings" (i.e people). In fact,
in the context of the Holocaust, it can be used _synonomously_ with
_extirpate_ and _eradicate_ to denote the "deliberate [i.e. 'a methodical
plan'] and violent destruction at the very source" -the Jewish people- "so
that they "cannot be regenerated" 

[snip]

> ...Perhaps you might consult a book on the metaphorical use of language?

And perhaps _you_ should stop trying to teach Grandma to suck eggs? 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug 14 12:07:49 PDT 1996
Article: 133041 of control
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel 
Control: cancel 
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 16:31:49 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
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Message-ID: 
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

cancel 


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug 14 12:16:30 PDT 1996
Article: 57270 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 20:56:44 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 59
Message-ID: 
References: <4ur24j$34b@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4urf0v$7jb@news.enter.net>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4urf0v$7jb@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

> >  mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
> >  On Mon, 12 Aug 1996 06:39:54 -0800, mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van
> >  Alstine) wrote:

[snip]

> >  >The Troll has been told this many, many times but appears to be unable to
> >  >understand the concept of how sieves work due to being severely mentally
> >  >dysfunctional. (And an emottionally dysfunctional, and a socially
> >  >dysfunctional, and....) 
>   
> >  And of course I have said the size would be from 1cm down to about 
> >  1/2 cm with a small amount of the mass smaller than that.  You apparently
> >  are unable to comprehend that.  

In article <4pdai6$8v1@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
(the Troll) wrote:

"For example, are his [Ho"ss's] grates and bone grinders more ridiculous
than your disolving bone fragments that pass thour a 1 cm mesh?
The former could have existed.  The latter is clearly impossible.
You know, that physical law stuff you have such a problem with."  

And the Troll, obviously, lies throug his teeth. Badly.

> Your source for the lower limit of size is?  Or did you just make it up.

If this isn't "proof" of the Troll's (self-induced) dementia, what is?
(Sure seems like it's right up there with the Troll's "IQ" [Imbibing
Quotient] too).... 

> >  Try it real slow.  The bones are crushed and put through the sieve.
> >  What is caught in the sieve is crushed again.
> 
> >  Perhaps some day you will learn there is no need to grind after the
> >  pieces are roughly the size desired.  Or perhaps you have never ground
> >  anything, never even used a blender.  

The Troll, of course, must _certainly_ be an expert blender operator! How
else could he have gotten to "Margaritaville" so quickly? 

> Or perhaps you are just making it up again, Matty poo.  What is your 
> reference?  Other than another consultation with Jim Beam .

The worm at the bottom of a tequila bottle? Seems rather fitting, actually.... 

Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug 14 12:16:31 PDT 1996
Article: 57289 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Guessing, surmising and abusing
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 15:05:57 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 22
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In article <4upe4d$3p8@atlas.uniserve.com>, hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary
Ostrov) wrote:

> Am I the only one who infers from Ehrlich's "guessing" and "surmising"
> that expressions of anti-Semitism/racism are acceptable in this forum
> (after all those who do so are only trolling), but that exposure,
> refutation and denunciation are not (because those who do so are
> "abusing" the trolls)?

Nope.

Mark

Posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug 14 13:39:09 PDT 1996
Article: 57310 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust extermination claims
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 04:37:33 -0800
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In article <4us3ti$g8i@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
(Ehrlich606) wrote:

> In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
> (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
> 
> >> This is an instance of a place where I have a problem with Pressac's
> >> reasoning.  The Leichenkeller is about 100 feet by 25 feet.  I can
> >> visualize this.  And, I can visualize a communal shower in such a
> >> space, for which 14 shower heads would be sufficient.  Such is my 
> >> experience with communal showers, anyway.  But _115_ showerheads?  
> >> Not in any communal shower I have ever seen, either in the service 
> >> or in school.  Not to mention the water pressure to operate such an 
> >> extravaganza, or the water wastage that would result. So, without 
> >> questioning Pressac's conclusion, I consider this a weak criminal trace.
> >
> >Faulty reasoning on your part, actually. Simply because _you_ haven't
> >seen a communal shower with large numbers of showerheads you dismiss 
> >Pressac's argument? Or simply because _you_ rationalize that 14 shower 
> >heads in a "sauna" measuring 30m x 7m x 2.4m "would be sufficient" you 
> >dismiss Pressac's argument?
> 
> Are you suggesting that _my_ reservations have to take a back seat to
> someone else's authority?  LOL!  

Nope. I'm saying that your reservations rely on your appealing to your
"authority" and/or incredulity. Basically, you simply stick your head in
the sand under the guise of your "reservations" when you can't marshall a
meaningful rebuttal. That, or simply walk away. 

> These are the kinds of things that bother me, that's all.

A well worn and hollow excuse. 

> But, by the way, thanks for the information.

I'd say "you're welcome" but I suspect it went in one ear and out the other.... 

> >But what did the _Nazis_ think "would be [a] sufficient" number of
> >showerheads in a communal shower at Auschwitz? I would argue (as does Mr.
> >McCarthy) that the answer can be found by examining the construction
> >drawings and photos of the Zentral Sauna (and other similar facilities)
> >at Auschwitz. In the Bauleitung drawing 1841 (an initial drawing which was
> >unrealized) one can see that the Brauseraum (shower room) contained 54
> >showerheads in a room measuring approximately 10m x 8m. (_Technique_,
> >p.68.) Clearly, early on the _Nazis_ thought that a communal shower
> >needed more showerheads than _you_ do. 
> 
> How are these showerheads arranged?  And, indeed, how are they arranged in
> the LK?

The short of it is that _none_ of the (faux) showerheads (nor any 
plumbing for them) are on the plans for the L.Kellers. The _functional_
showerheads (and plumbing) _are_ on the construction plans for the Zentral
Sauna and BW5a/b. 

Don't you consider that a bit odd? Or will you continue to squirm to avoid
facing reality? 

> >Considering that Bauleitung drawing 1841 was never realized, it would be
> >best to  reference a drawing that _was_ realized to forstall the
> >inevitable denier objections. I then would bring to your attention
> >Bauleitung drawing 3084 (Ibid. p.76.). The shower room of this drawing,
> >by my count, shows 50 showerheads in the shower room, which by my
> >measurement, is about 11m x 8m. In addition, Photo 25 (Ibid. p.80), shows
> >(at least) 30 of these 50 showerheads.
> >
> >Yet L.Keller 1, which measured 30m x 7m, having nearly 2.4 times the area
> >as the shower room in the Zentral Sauna, contained less than 1/3 the
> >number of (faux) showerheads. Put it another way, the shower room in the
> >Zentral Sauna had one showerhead per 1.76 sq m of floorspace. K.Keller 1,
> >other the otherhand, had one (faux) showerhead per 15 sq. m of floorspace.
> 
> Again, the question I would ask is how these were arranged, and how did
> you arrive at your count?

In the plans for the Zentral Suana and BW5a/b they are arranged in a grid.
The number of showerheads was _printed_ on drawings 1841 and 2540:
"54-Brausen" and "50 Brausen," respectively. On drawing 3084 I simply
counted the dots that represented the showerheads in the shower room. 

Again, will you continue your squirming to avoid facing reality? Or will
stop these denier charades and admit you are being muleheaded in regards
to this? 

> >And you see nothing _wrong_ with this picture? (Besides the fact that the
> >showerheads in L.Keller 1 were _non-functional_.) Amazing. Must by that
> >blind eye of your's acting up again.... 
> 
> I don't know anything about them being non-functional.

Understandable, considering you are evidencing very litle knowledge of the
subject. Yet this doesn't seem to stop you from venturing opinions. Why is
that? Can't resist? Have a denier post quota to fullfill? 

But to the non-fuctionality of the faux showerheads: No working plumbing
for them. Kind of hard to get water coming out of showerheads when they
aren't hooked up, wouldn't you agree? 

> >> >I should point out that revisionists, up until the publication of
> >> >Pressac's work, considered the Leichenkeller 1 to be morgues, Leuchter
> >> >of course leading the way.  Pressac demolished that argument with his
> >> >numerous demonstrations that the room was for gassing.  In response,
> >> >revisionists like Mattogno have started arguing that the room was for
> >> >_delousing_ gassing (never mind that they contradict other
> >> >revisionists, principally Leuchter).  But Pressac _also_ anticipated
> >> >_that_ argument and eliminated it as well.
> >> 
> >> Leuchter, Krakow, and Rudolf have all found small traces of HCN in the
> >> walls.  That means either cyanide gas that is not allowed to linger
> >> (convention), fumigated once (Leuchter), or null values (Rudolf).  
> >
> >> From what I understand, Mattogno has found documentation in Moscow 
> >> stating that the room was marked off as *Entlauesungskammer* i.e., 
> >> delousing chamber, but this is supposed to mean in the showering sense.
> 
> >Hardly a revelation. It is known from eyewitness testimonies that the gas
> >chambers were labeled with signs that said, in essense, "Zum Baden und
> >Desinfektion" (to bath and disinfection), "Bath and disinfecting Room,"
> >or "To disinfection." (cf. Tauber, Ibid. p.483; Nyiszli, _Auschwitz_, p.49;
> >Broad, _KL Auschwitz_, p.177.) In addition, the victims were _also_ told
> >that they were going to be bathed and deloused. (cf. Ho"ss, _Death
> >Dealer_,  p.43; Broad, _KL Aushwitz_, p.175.)
> 
> Yes, Yes, I know that part.  The question is whether *Badeanstalten fuer
> Sonderaktionen* and *Entlauesungskammern* are synonymous in terms of what
> they describe, and whether these terms have anything but a sinister or
> homicidal connotation.

No, no, the question is why _you_ (and other deniers) try to obfuscate the
issues with such specious "interpretations?" Why _do_ you? 

> >> ...Van Pelt has a photo of a document in his latest book that claims
> >> that 19 (or some similar number) gas chambers were designed for the
> >> Auschwitz. look at the drawing, I see what look to be cubicles (i.e., 
> >> like shower cubicles) and they are marked on the drawing 
> >> *Entlauesungskammern*.
> >
> >Full citation, please. On what page, exactly, was this mentioned? What
> >page was the photo on? 
> 
> I can't give you the citation straight off because I don't have the book. 
> I browsed through it at a bookstore, looking, frankly, at the pictures. 
> But I assume you have the book, since you have referenced it once.  It is
> in one of the glossy photo inserts. I will try to give you a more precise
> reference as soon as I can.

In the meantime I have the book here in front of me and opened to the
(glossy) section entitled "Bluprints of Genocide," starting after p. 320.
I see on Plate 8 the "early design sketch for the prisoner reception
building in the main camp.... To the left is the laundry, to the right the
baths, and the center wing houses the prisoner reception facilities and
the pavillion with nineteen Zyklon B gas chambers." 

In the _main_ camp. To "the right the baths, and the center wing houses
the prisoner reception facilities and the pavillion with nineteen Zyklon B
gas chambers." Sure sounds like those "*Entlauesungskammern*" cubicles
weren't "shower cubicles." (You really should take more care when browsing
books....) 

The Bauleitung drawing 1361 (_Technique_ p.35) gives much better detail.
In the drawing it can be seen that the plan of the prisonerss bath
("Grundriss-Ha"ftlingsbad") which contains the shower room ("Brausenraum")
is in a seperate section from the delousing pavillion ("Entlausung") and
its delousing gas chambers. 

BTW, by my count, there are 60 showerheads laid out in a grid in the
shower room. Also, Photo 12 (Ibid. p. 38), which is a detail of Bauleitung
drawing 916 (Ibid. p.34), shows that the delousing pavillion was labeled
"Blausa"ure-Entlausunganlage" (prussic acid delousing installation). The
(gas) chambers ("Kammers") were numbered from 1 to 19. The caption to
Photo 12 reads:

"Detail of drawing 916 showing location of the 19 delousing gas chambers
each with a volume 10.80 cubic meters." (Ibid.) 

> >> Query:  were showers ever referred to as *delousing chambers* at any
> >> location? 
> >
> >Not to my knowledge. The delousing chambers were strictly for the 
> >articles of clothing and other personal effects taken from the prisoners
> >and victims. The series of Bauleitung drawings 801, 1293, 1715, and 2540,
> >for the delousing installations (buildings BW5a and BW5b) loacated in the
> >Womens' Camp clearly delineates between the delousing facilities and the
> >shower room: "Gaskammer" vs, "Wasch und Brauseraum" or "Kammer" vs.
> >"Brauseraum". (cf. _Technique_, pp.55-58.)
> >
> >BTW, the shower room (Bauleitung drawing 2540) also clearly shows that it
> >too had 50 showerheads in the shower room which measured about 14m x 9m.
> >(Ibid. p.58.)  
> 
> OK, this is better information.

And it keeps getting better too. Unless you're a denier wedded to the idea
that the L.Kellers were _delousing_ chambers that is....

> >> Is it possible to combine HCN in any concentration with water for
> >> delousing purposes?  I am open here.
> >
> >Yes. Photos 22, 23, and 24 (_Technique_, p.79) show a shallow concrete
> >trough (located in the Zentral Sauna) that held a solution of water and
> >prussic acid and was used to disinfest the prisoners. The caption to the
> >photos reads:
> >
> >"Three views of the shallow bath situated at the entrance to the showers,
> >filled with water and hydrocyanic acid in which the prisoners' body hair
> >was disinfested just before the shower." (Ibid.) 
> >
> >In addition, the following excerpt, an adaptation of a letter from a
> >former Czech prisoner to the head of the PMO, also helps clarify the
> >procedure:
> >
> >"Before the shower and during the disinfestation, the prisoners underwent
> >a disinfesting treatment. Just inside the entrance door to the showers
> >[in the Zentral Sauna] there was a small concrete bath full of a mixture of
> >water and hydrocyanic acid, obtained by pouring Zyklon-B crystals in the
> >water. The prisoners arriving for his shower, naked and with his head
> >shaved, stepped into this basin and another stationed alongside the
> >basin, his hand protected by a glove, passed the mixture over his head, under
> >the arms and over the pubic hair." (Ibid.) 
> >
> >Needless to say, no such troughs appear on the drawings for the Kremas
> >and no eyetwitness testimony, to my knowledge, mentions such a trough in the
> >Kremas. 
> 
> OK, that's fine.  This is good information.

Better and better.... 

> >> >His "supplementary proof" is that an inventory of Leichenkeller 1 of
> >> >Krema II contained 4 wire mesh introduction devices and 4 wooden
> >> >covers (pp. 429-430).  These could only be used to exterminate human 
> >> >beings.As he points out, we have everything but signed affidavits to 
> >> >the murders themselves:  "It would be too much to expect the SS to have
> >> >formally written that Zyclon-B was poured into these introduction
> >> >devices." (p. 430)
> >> 
> >> Again, the only problem I have with these devices is that while they
> >> may be listed on the inventory I have never seen one of things...
> >
> >Just because _you_ never saw a wire mesh introduction column doesn't mean
> >they never existed! (Such a _subjective_ world view you have! Tsk tsk.)
> >The fact is that they were removed from the L.Keller when the Kremas II
> >and II were dismantled. Along with, for instance the gas-tight door to
> >L.Kller 1 and the benches that were in L.Keller 2. (A gas-tight door-
> >with a heavy wire grid covering the peephole -and benches were revovered in
> >the Auschwizt Bauhof in 1945. [cf. Ibid. p.486.) 
> >
> >>...and apparently neither has anyone else.
> >
> >David Ole`re did. He even drew the wire mesh introduction column in the
> >background of a sketch he made in 1946 that depicted the "dentists"
> >extracting the gold teeth from the bodies of the victims who were killed
> >in the gas chambers. (Ibid. Document 31, p.493.) 
> >
> >Michal Kula did. One can see a drawing of the introduction column based
> >on his June 11, 1945, deposition that looks like the one in Ole`re's sketch.
> >(cf. Ibid. 487.) 
> >
> >Henryk Tauber did. He described the wire mesh introduction columns in his
> >deposition taken at the Ho"ss Trial. It sounds like the one described in
> >the drawing made from Kula' deposition. (cf. Ibid. pp.483-484.) 
> >
> >Nyiszli did. His description is similar to Tauber's. (cf. Nyiszli,
> >_Auschwitz_, p.50.) 
> >
> >And you claim "apparently" nobody else saw the wire mesh Zyklon B
> >introduction columns? Telling whoppers, are we now? Tsk tsk. You should
> >_know_ better- especially as _I've_ informed _you_ about Tauber, Nyiszli,
> >and Kula(?) before.  
> 
> Actually, I don't mean at the period you are describing, that is, the
> period of the Hoess trial.  I know that witnesses describe the things, but
> I didn't know how many or where.  This is useful information. 

And better and better and better.... (Just like the Energizer Bunny!)  

> In your prior information on this subject, you named names but didn't provide
> sources.  

I beg your pardon. In one post I origionally did not, but when _you_
immediately asked for sources I most certainly _did_ supply them. Sure
beats your "my books are in the attic" or "I can't give you the citation
straight off because I don't have the book" crap. 

> And besides, what I mean is that I would feel a lot more
> comfortable with these devices if there was one physically existing, had
> been photographed, etc.

:::queue itty-bitty violin:::: 

I could care less about your "comfort" level. Look at the evidence
available and quit whining! 

> >> >And Pressac has other proofs as well.  He cites documents which refer
> >> >to Leichenkeller 2, the room next to Leichenkeller 1, as an "undressing
> >> >room" (pp. 432-434, 438).  Why would the Nazis need a room where a
> >> >thousand or more people could undress simultaneously, unless, of
> >> >course, they were about to be killed in the adjoining room?  There's
> >> > an order for an urgently-needed peephole with a double layer of 8 mm
> >> >thick glass.  (p. 434)  Why would two layers of third-of-an-inch-thick 
> >> >glass be required for the peephole in a morgue?
> >> 
> >> The problem you have with this is that the undressing room is about 175
> >> feet by 25 feet.  I have seen undressing rooms for bathers at swimming
> >> pools that are crowded for undressing purposes with just a couple
> >> hundred people inside.  Yet, there is this insistence on a thousand, two
> >> thousand, three thousand ....
> >
> >Your appeals to incredulity (not to mention your ersatz "authority") are
> >wearing thin. Obviously, you have no substantial rebuttal and must
> instead wave your hands and say it cannot be Because! Ehrlich606! Says! So!
> 
> What you seem to be neglecting here, Mark, is that a person can't go
> against their own minds.  The claim about *Because! I! Say! So!* is simply
> a demand that I subordinate my personal opinion to the claims of someone
> else's authority. It don't work like that. 

Sure does. The caveat, of course, is that the person the appeal to
authority is made to is generally _recognized_ and specifically
_qualified_ as being an authority. This is accepted convention. Here
Presac is and you are not. The _fallacious_ appeal to authority is when
one appeals to a person as an authority and is _not_ recognized and
qualified as being an authority. Like when _you_ appeal to yourself as an
authority. (A much better- and far more humorous -example, btw, is the
Troll) It's as simple as that. 

> Moreover, arguments about magnitude are the main problem that I have with 
> the conventionalist stress on mass gassings as a primary means of mass murder.

Yes, you _do_ have a problem then. Especially considering that the
homicidal gas chambers at Auschwitz killed somewhere between 15%-20% of
the Jewish victims of the Holocaust. 

> >Talk about lowest common (denier) denominators! 
> >
> >> >In his "39 criminal traces" section, he doesn't even mention the
> >> >architectural modifications to the Krema, which also establish clearly
> >> >that the rooms were not morgues.  (pp. 267-331)
> >> 
> >> such as?
> >
> >The elimination of the corspe chutes and the addition of a stairway
> >leading to the basement antechamber between L.Kellers 1 and 2. Also the
> >addition of the western access stairway to L.Keller 2. 
> 
> How were the corpse chutes supposed to operate?  

Do you know how childrens' slide works?  Same idea.  

> And where would they have been located? 

In Krema II, at the south-west corner of the building. It is labelled
"Rutsche" (corspe chute) on Bauleitung drawing 933. (_Technique_, p. 276.)
The corpse chute then went down to the vestibule ("Vorraum") between
L.Kellers 1 and 2. (Where the elevator to the furnace hall was also
located.) 

> >> >Nor does he mention the photographs which corroborate the existence of 
> >> >the wire mesh introduction devices and their "little chimneys" 
> >> >(pp. 340-342). Again, this is because these are merely _corroborating_ 
> >> >evidence, not _proof_, by Pressac's phenomenally strict standards.
> >> 
> >> Again, what photos do you mean, unless it is the crate photograph or
> >> the aerial photos.  I am listening to you here. 
> >
> >The very one. The one which you (and Mr. Allen) keep flip-flopping over
> >in your claims as to what the "little chimneys" are. The ones you are purely
> >_speculating_ as to what the "little chimneys" are while dogmatically
> >ignoring the plentitude of evidence for their being part of the Zyklon B
> >introduction system for L.Keller 1. 
> >
> Actually, Mark, this is not quite fair. Caecaa has never claimed that
> they were anything but boxes.  

Mr. Allen has flip-flopped all over the place as to what the "little
chimneys" actually were. (Everywhere except the truth, that is.) Just as
he has done with the Zyklon B introduction columns. 

> ...I was the one who erred.... 

Yes. Big time. I must congratulate you, however, on admitting your error.
It's good to see you still have some integrity left. That is more than I
can say for almost all of the other deniers in alt.revisionism. 

> But again, I just don't see how they match up with either your drawing 
> or the aerial photographs.  

Then you are blind. 

> There is good, not so good, and bad evidence. I consider that photo 
> to be not particularly good evidence.

I don't consider that you have aprticularly good judgement as to what
comprises "good, not so good, and bad evidence" either.... 

> OTOH, the fact that I have not seen convincing discussion of what happened
> to either the elderly or the very young either when the ghettoes were
> emptied or when arrivals took place at camp are among the indications
> which I think weigh heavily on the German concentration camp system.

:::Ping!:::  Did you just richochet off on _another_ tangent? 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug 14 13:39:10 PDT 1996
Article: 57312 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!noos.hooked.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi147.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Validity of Himmler's Posen speech, again (was Re: Extermination or, Evac...
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 09:58:09 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
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References:  <4usp2a$kop@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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In article <4usp2a$kop@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
(Ehrlich606) wrote:

> In article ,
> Marty Kelley  writes:
> 
> >
> >So Himmler's speeches were recorded as a matter of course, this one
> >included.  If you seriously want to claim that the voice on the tape that
> >the National Archives has is not Himmler's you could, I suppose, try
> >comparing it to the other taped speeches. The National Archives has a lot
> >of them; in fact, the document I cite above notes that although
> >fragmentary and badly organized, "The Himmler recordings were . . . the
> >most numerous of the items in the collection (over 500 of the original
> >discs and tapes)."
> >
> >However, it seems highly
> >improbable that forgers would have faked an entire 3-hour speech, using a
> >Himmler impersonator, just to insert the 5-minute section on
> exterminating
> >Jews. It is even MORE improbable that forgers would be able to
> >successfully _insert_ a faked 5-minute segment into the recording of the
> >rest of the speech.
> 
> 
> As a matter of fact, it would be quite easy to insert a five minute
> segment into a three hour speech.  I assume that the speech was
> transcribed on 78 rpm discs?  Which run for a maximum of 5 minutes a side?
>  Uh oh.  Better not tell Gord.
> 
> But now you raise another interesting possibility.  If Himmler's remarks
> were _transcribed_ is it possible that he was transcribed _incorrectly_?! 

Ah, Ehrlich606, with his unsupported "speculations" that imply forgery
etc., trods the well-worn denier-lemming path. Pity. Especially, as it has
been demonstrated time and time again here in this very newsgroup, that
such a path is but a slippery slope leading to the abyss of intellectual
depravity, anti-Semtism and racism....

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Aug 15 07:50:29 PDT 1996
Article: 57423 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel
Subject: Re: The Department of Defence wanst to censor revisionism
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 11:03:27 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
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Distribution: world
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:57423 alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2624

In article <4ut2hm$25gu@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord
McFee) wrote:

> In message <320F1C24.5E06@rio.com> - Chuck Ferree  writes:
> 
> :>Matt Giwer wrote:
> 
> [deleted]
> 
> :>Deep down inside, Giwer knows the Holocaust happened, people were 
> :>gassed to death by the Nazis, and millions simply disappeared for 
> :>ever. His denial is all based on anti-Semitic genes which his entire 
> :>family carries around in their bodies. His brain hasn't been the same 
> :>since they did a frontal lobotomy on him years ago.  How can a man 
> :>with most of his brain removed, think or rationalize? Impossible!
> 
> Chuck, I'm not sure Giwer has had a lobotomy.  If I am not mistaken, he is
> living proof of the never-to-be-forgotten line:
> 
> "I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy"
> 
> :-)

ROTFL!

Talk about picking one's poison! An ethanol labotomy, though it may take
a bit longer, will still get the job done....

And in the Troll's case, the job is nearly finished. I think the Troll is
pretty much functioning on his brain stem most of the time now....

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Aug 15 07:50:30 PDT 1996
Article: 57429 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!tribune.usask.ca!decwrl!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi147.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism,talk.politics.european-union
Subject: Re: Provide the "records," Mr. Hardy!
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 10:04:36 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 24
Message-ID: 
References:   <8b7cc$8321b.3aa@news.comet.net> <4ula04$ekg@nizkor. <8c7cc$9203.16@news.comet.net> <8c7cc$e182a.1b0@news.comet.net> <4uruk1$ddq@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi147.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:82873 alt.revisionism:57429 talk.politics.european-union:5607

In article ,
schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

> In article <4uruk1$ddq@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
> (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
> 
> >         You may choose to simply drop out.  
>  
> Fervently praying for the day Mr. Giwer makes this choice.

Actually, Sara, it is inevitable. Eventually the Troll's self-abuse will
take it's toll and he will be but a (bad) memory.... 

In the meantime, patience is a virtue. So is a wicked sense of humor.... };-> 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Aug 15 07:50:30 PDT 1996
Article: 57454 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor - an enviromental hazard
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 12:20:26 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 21
Message-ID: 
References: <320c8ba7.311919@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi144.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <320c8ba7.311919@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) wrote:

>         Nizkor is a threat to our ecological system.....

[Moranic(tm) blather snipped to protect the environment]

Moran, the only threat to the environment here is YOU blowing toxic smoke
out your butt. 

Get a scrubber. Or better yet, put a cork in it. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Aug 15 07:50:31 PDT 1996
Article: 57458 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!noos.hooked.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Validity of Himmler's Posen speech, again (was Re: Extermination or, Evac..
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 14:27:01 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 50
Message-ID: 
References:  <4ut6dg$q0e@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi146.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4ut6dg$q0e@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
(Ehrlich606) wrote:

> In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
> (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
> 
> >> 
> >> As a matter of fact, it would be quite easy to insert a five minute
> >> segment into a three hour speech.  I assume that the speech was
> >> transcribed on 78 rpm discs?  Which run for a maximum of 5 minutes a
> side?
> >>  Uh oh.  Better not tell Gord.
> >> 
> >> But now you raise another interesting possibility.  If Himmler's
> remarks
> >> were _transcribed_ is it possible that he was transcribed
> _incorrectly_?! 
> >
> >Ah, Ehrlich606, with his unsupported "speculations" that imply forgery
> >etc., trods the well-worn denier-lemming path. Pity. Especially, as it
> has
> >been demonstrated time and time again here in this very newsgroup, that
> >such a path is but a slippery slope leading to the abyss of intellectual
> >depravity, anti-Semtism and racism....
> >
> >
> I am reminded of the passage in De Quincey's *Gentle Art of Murder* where
> he discusses how the ruination of many a young man could be traced back to
> some murder or other that he thought little of at the time.  He goes on to
> describe how eventually such conduct would even lead the killer to stop
> attending church services and even go so far as to be rude to his maiden
> aunt.
> 
> Of course, De Quincey is presenting a parody of *slippery slope*
> arguments.  And so are you.

Only if you consider the likes of Moran and Giwer as parodies of normal
people....

Keep it up and you may join them. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Aug 15 07:50:32 PDT 1996
Article: 57464 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 16:06:07 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 48
Message-ID: 
References: <7aH3oOev1iBC065yn@login.dknet.dk> <4ullr4$4vf@news.enter.net>   <2AV4oOev1KOG065yn@login.dknet.dk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi146.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <2AV4oOev1KOG065yn@login.dknet.dk>, olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole
Kreiberg) wrote:

> In article , Mark Van Alstine wrote:
> >In article , olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole
> >Kreiberg) wrote:
> >
> >[snip]
> >
> >> Danish citizens would of course not be deported. However some people will 
> >> lose their Danish citizenship because they no longer qualify ethnically. 
> >> Having lost their citizenship and not been granted a residence permit they 
> >> will have their status changed to illegal aliens and then treated 
> >> accordingly.
> >
> >In other words, Danish citizens will be, stripped of their citizenship,
> >rounded up, imprisoned in "transit camps," and then "treated accordingly."
> 
> Only if they do not leave the country voluntarily within 2 years. Nobody 
> will be held in those camps against their will. If they want to get out
> they can go wherever they want except back to Denmark.
> >
> >Can we say "deja vu?" Do you plan to send them to the Ostland too,
> >Mr.Kreiberg?  
> >
> Hey, where in the .... is Ostland? 

The East, Mr. Kreiberg, the East. 

>...It sound to me like some Kraut fantasy land.

Indeed. The Nazis were definetely fantasizing about the East. Salivating
even. Their fantasies of Volkdom and Lebensraum allowed them to
rationalize launching a barbaric war of conquest, unmatched in human
history, on the peoples who lived there. 

The East, Mr. Kreiberg, became a killing field for the Nazis. Not the
least of whom's victims were several million Jews. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Aug 15 07:50:33 PDT 1996
Article: 57486 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi147.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Everyone loves a good mystery...can you answer this one?
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 10:07:48 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 36
Message-ID: 
References: <4umkca$rap@juliana.sprynet.com> <4upkuk$ald@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi147.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4upkuk$ald@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>, Nele Abels
 wrote:

> rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
> >Who is Louis Marschalko?  Can anyone provide me with any details about 
> >this person's life?
> 
> Why should we care who Louis Marschalko is? 
> 
> Since you have obviously not grasped the concept of the Internet, I will 
> help you out with an explanation. Imagine you are standing on Picadilly 
> Circus in London at 12 o'clock and say "Here is another mystery to 
> solve: Who is Louis Marschalko". You can imagine that you will get veery 
> strange looks. It's the same with the net. There are a heck of a lot 
> people round here, and if you continue your little one-line witticisms 
> you will get nothing but strange looks. So if you want to play with your 
> daddy's account, learn to use the "quote" and "reply" functions of your 
> newsreader.... 


LOL!

> ....Perhaps you will get answers then.


And perhaps _not_.... };-> 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Aug 15 07:50:33 PDT 1996
Article: 57490 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!psgrain!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi147.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The coward McVay
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 11:02:16 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 21
Message-ID: 
References: <4uk6fl$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4ut25p$25gu@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>  
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi147.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4ut25p$25gu@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord
McFee) wrote:

[Much hilarity at the Troll's expense snipped]


> I fear Mattie suffers from gender confusion.  

Indeed. The Troll also suffers from a lot more than gender confusion! His
consfusion seems to get so severe at times that I'm suprised he remembers
to breathe.... 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Aug 15 07:50:34 PDT 1996
Article: 57492 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!izzy.net!news.goodnet.com!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionist Breakthrough on "Vergasungskeller" from Arthur Butz
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 20:17:42 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 34
Message-ID: 
References: <4uovup$hgf@news.enter.net> <4ura57$3l4@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi148.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4ura57$3l4@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
(Ehrlich606) wrote:

> In article <4uovup$hgf@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken)
> writes:
> 
> >
> >>   dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) writes:
> >>  Rich Graves writes:
> >  
> >>  >Butz doesn't attempt to explain why the only place you find these
> >>  >gas shelters is in concentration camps.
> >  
> >>  What makes you think that?
> >
> >       The fact that he makes no mention of them being elsewhere.
> >
> >
> 
> My take on this is that Butz is setting off a trial balloon.  Don't be
> surprised if supplementary documentary indications in support of his
> thesis emerges over the next year or so.  

And don't be suprised when the gas bag goes down in flames either.... Again.

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Aug 15 13:37:46 PDT 1996
Article: 57531 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!news-out.microserve.net!news-in.microserve.net!zdc-e!zdc!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi147.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 10:42:19 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 60
Message-ID: 
References: <4uqmvv$2jq@crl6.crl.com> <4usp3o$kps@newsbf02.news.aol.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi147.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4usp3o$kps@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
(Ehrlich606) wrote:

> In article <4uqmvv$2jq@crl6.crl.com>, jhahn@crl.com (Jack Hahn) writes:
> 
> >: was linked to race hatred.  But I have to be honest and say that I
> >: don't think there are any regulars in this NG who are into race hatred, 
> >: or, for hat matter, racial anti-semitism, although there are some who
> >: frequently make anti-semitic remarks, my guess is just for trolling 
> >: purposes.  And I might add it certainly seems to work. But then, I 
> >: further surmise that a lot of the folks who are into abusing people for 
> >: making anti-semitic statements are people who come here specifically for 
> >: that purpose, i.e., fighting hate.
> >
> >Ehrlich666 - Some (among them I) would say this falls under the catagory
> >of "blaming the victim"
> >        
> >I would say that "trolling" in this case is a euphamism for race baiting 
> >which is not something that I would prefix with the words "just for"
> 
> Yes, but don't you understand that there is a yin/yang thing here?  I
> mean, this news group was set aside so that discussion of revisionist
> issues would be separated from other discourse.  Therefore, everyone who
> comes here knows what to expect....  

Spoken like a true denier "veteran." (Sotto voce: Unlike when te "old"
Ehrlich606 first came to the group and whined about all the bad vibes
between deniers and conventionalists....) 

> ...If there were no conventionalists here, do you think there would be much 
> race baiting, as you call it?  I don't, because I don't see that on CODOH or 
> Greg Raven's site.

Could this be because those are _websites_ and not USENET groups? Duh. 

But of course, this doesn't prevent patently false and inflammatory
Holocaust denial material from appearing on those websites- which it does
in abundance- and in spite of the fact that both Mr. Raven and Mr.
Smith espouse the virtues of pursuing the truth regarding the Holocaust.
In fact, Mr. Raven also claims that he will correct any errors on his
website while, in actuality, when he is informed of such errors (rather
regularly, btw), he has been (to put it charitably) remiss in doing so. 

> Therefore it follows that when someone comes on and attacks revisionists,
> the revisionist who wants to troll his opponent will reach for the nearest
> club -- which is oftentimes race baiting.  That's what most of it is here.

Ah, the fallacy of "two wrongs make right." (Assuming these "attacks" on
deniers are not justifiable, of course.)  My, my, you _do_ seem to be all
over the "fallacy board" of late, Ehrlich606.... 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Aug 15 13:37:46 PDT 1996
Article: 57550 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!news.sgi.com!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 21:46:46 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 224
Message-ID: 
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com>   
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi146.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article , dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

> olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) writes:
> 
> # How do you know how much gas there would be left. 
> 
> And how do you know? 
> 
> # If the bodies fell over the still unevaporated HCN there
> # could be quite a bit left.
> 
> "Quite a bit"? This would not have been a factor in
> the Krema II and III gas chambers, as the Zyklon was
> taken out via the wiremesh devices. In the other Kremas,
> hosing down the gas chambers helped to neutralize the 
> remaining Zyklon; and anyway, most of the HCN would have
> evaporated during the gassing and the ventilation
> period.
> 
> If Zyklon was so hard to use and dangerous, how come
> it was so commonly used for fumigation?
> 
> # I do not exclude the possibility that some people
> # may have been killed in this manner. It is only the
> # number and the procedure I question.
> 
> Given the size of the two large gas chambers (210 m^2),
> and the power of the ventilation systems they had, how
> many people do you think it would have been possible to kill
> in them during, say, 24 hours? Show us your calculations.
> 
> # It is still disputed whether there were a ventilation
> # systems in the alleged gaschambers.
> 
> It is not "disputed". Even the "revisionists" agree there
> was a ventilation system in Kremas II & III. It's easy
> to locate its remains, such as the openings for fresh
> air, its supports on the ceiling, and its grills; moreover
> it is very well documented.
> 
> # If there were ventillation systems that were able to 
> # rapidly remove all the gas, where to would it be led out? 
> # Just out into the open air in the camp area or what? 
> 
> Yes, exactly. Your point is moot, because the delousing
> chambers were also in the camp and were also ventilated
> into the camp area. Moreover, since there are cyanide
> compounds in the gas chambers, its obvious HCN was used
> in them; this is a proof that there was no particular
> problems in ventilating the HCN out. If what you're saying
> was true, you'd have people dropping dead after each
> delousing operation!
> 
> # Do you by the way remember the accident in Bhopal in India
> # where humans and animals were killed by poisonous gas 
> # several kilometers from the chemical plant from where it
> # has been released?
> 
> Interesting point. However:
> 
> 1) It is moot due to the reason mentioned above.
> 
> 2) I can think of a very simple example in which large
>    volumes of poison gas are released into the air, right
>    where people are standing, and nothing happens to them.
>    I'm talking, of course, about cars. Car engines
>    (before the catalytic converters) released highly 
>    lethal gas, right? If you're in a closed chamber filled
>    with the exhaust of such an engine, you'll die pretty
>    fast, right? However, look at a policeman directing
>    the traffic; he stands right there, between numerous
>    cars, all of them releasing this highly toxic gas, and
>    nothing happens to him, right?
> 
>    Of course, car exhaust and HCN are different; but, again,
>    we know that HCN was routinely releases into the air
>    and nothing happened to the people nearby.
> 
>    It's a question of concentration. There are toxic gases 
>    that will kill very quickly in a closed chamber, but would
>    be relatively harmless when released into the open air. 
>    Nerve gases may be different, which may be one reason they 
>    were not used in the death camps; informative comments are
>    welcome (I recall Keith Morrison posted on this).

[snip]

Mr. Kreiberg, with his Bhopal analogy, has committed the fallacy of Hasty
Induction. His implication that because the Bhopal accident caused death
and injury when methylisocyanate was released into the atmosphere then so
too would HCN when released from the homicidal gas chambers at Auschwitz.
Mr. Kreiberg ignores several fundamental differences, not only between the
chemical agents in question, but the different specific circumstances
surrounding the accident at Bhopal and the homicidal gassings at
Auschwitz. Acceding to Dr. Keren's reasoning (above) in regards to HCN
release at Auschwitz I offer the following in regards to the chemical
accident that took place at Bhopal:

Source: http://www.opcw.nl/chemhaz/chemacci.htm

==============================================================================

The Bhopal accident

Massive discharge of a chemical took place at Union Carbide's factory at
Bhopal, Madya Pradesh, India, during the night of 2 December 1984. The
accident started when a tank containing methylisocyanate (MIC) started to
leak. MIC is an extremely reactive chemical and is used in production of
the insecticide carbaryl. The accident developed into the largest
industrial disaster ever to occur. About one-third of the town's total
population of 800 000 were afflicted. About 100 000 of these received some
kind of medical treatment, about 50 000 were hospitalized and about 2500
received lethal injuries. In addition, about 7 000 animals were injured,
of which about one thousand were killed. 

MIC (CH3NCO) is a volatile fluid with a boiling-point of about 40 oC.
Because of its high reactivity, this substance is used in several chemical
syntheses, in the present case being used for production of the
insecticide carbaryl. MIC has an extremely irritating effect on mucous
membrane and has high acute toxicity when inhaled. The threshold
concentration is at about 5 mg/m3 (2 ppm) and a concentration of 50 mg/m3
is intolerable. Symptoms accompanying exposure to MIC are coughing,
increased saliva production, tear flow and difficulty in keeping the eyes
open (cf. tear gas). 

At higher concentrations, there are difficulties in breathing, with
pressure over the chest and pain when inhaling. Exposure to extremely high
concentrations may lead to pulmonary oedema. At Bhopal, reduced lung
capacity was noted in 40 000 people as long as three months after the
accident. MIC also has an irritating effect on moist skin and may cause
injury to the cornea of the eye. Isocyanates are substances leading to
sensitization, i.e., people can become excessively sensitive to them.
Repeated exposure leads to symptoms similar to asthma. 

The reason for the accident at Bhopal is assumed to have been that water
entered the tank where about 40 m3 MIC was stored. This depended on a
combination of the human factor and an incorrectly designed safety system.
When water and MIC became mixed, a chemical reaction started with a strong
heat development as a result. In due course, the safety valve of the tank
burst as a result of the increase in pressure. The discharge was so
violent that the coating of concrete
around the tank also burst. It is probable that between 20 and 30 tonnes
of MIC were released during the hour that the discharge took place. 

The discharge occurred from a 30 m high chimney but this height was
entirely insufficient to reduce the effects of the discharge. The reason
was the high moisture content (aerosol) in the discharge which, when
evaporating, gave rise to a heavy gas which rapidly sank to the ground. 

The meteorological conditions were typical for a clear night with a stably
stratified lower atmosphere and weak (2-3 m/s) wind with frequent changes
of direction. It is this type of weather which leads to the largest
consequences in situations with a continuous plume discharge. The weak
wind and the weak vertical turbulence caused a slow dilution of gas and
thus lead to severe effects at considerable distances. The large
fluctuations in wind direction also caused large lateral movements of the
gas plume. This led to a wide area being affected during the period of the
discharge (about one hour). 

A map of the damage clearly illustrates these effects. People present
within a sector of 150-180 degrees suffered severe poisoning injuries.
Lethal injuries were found up to a distance of 2.5 km and severe but not
lethal injuries occurred up to about a distance of 4 km. Dispersal
calculations with a common risk analysis model will give also the same
approximate effect with distance (1.6 and 3 km, respectively). In the
calculations, it has then been assumed that 100 ppm is the lower level for
lethal injuries and 30 ppm for severe injury. 

==============================================================================

Clearly, as we can see, there were obvious and significant differences
between the accident at Bhopal and the release of HCN from the homicidal
(or delousing) gas chambers at Auschwitz. A few of these are: 

At Bhopal 20-30 tonnes of MIC were released within one hour. At Krema II,
on the order of 2-3 kilograms of HCN were released in about 1/2 hour. 

Due to that nature of the accidental release of MIC, which was caused by
water entering the MIC storage tank, the discharge was basically an
_aerosol_ that "gave rise to a heavy gas which rapidly sank to the
ground." In addition, meteorological conditions at Bhopal caused the "slow
dilution of gas and thus lead to severe effects at considerable
distances." In comparison, the HCN discharged from the gas homicidal
chambers at Auschwitz was _not_ an aerosol, but behaved like an ideal gas,
and would have been quickly dispersed in the atmosphere from the vents on
the roof of the Krema by turbulent mixing. 

The lower level of lethality of MIC is assumed to be 100 ppm and 30 ppm
for serious injury. In comparison the lower level of lethality for HCN is
120-150 ppm and 20-40 ppm causes only minor symptoms after several hours 

(cf. http://www.opcw.nl/chemhaz/hcn.htm) 

Clearly, The comparative lethality of MIC and HCN at 100 ppm (or higher)
appears to show rough equivalency while there is a great disparity of
effects at 30 ppm, with MIC being more injurious than HCN. Given that some
10,000 times as much MIC than HCN was discharged in one hour, it is hardly
surprising that the Bhopal accident killed many and injured some 40,000
people while the number of _accidental_ deaths and injury from HCN
poisoning was, at best, a handful of people for the _entire_ duration of
operations at KL Auschwitz. 

In summary, for Mr. Kreiberg to try and argue for _any_ manner of
equivalency of toxicological effects between Bhopal accident KL Auschwitz
is nothing more than another pathetic display of intellectual dishonesty
and an abysmal lack of research skills on his part. 

But then, this is hardly surprising coming from a Holocaust denier who
dogmatically claimed that corpses would exploded when placed into the Topf
furnaces at Auschwitz, thus damaging them. 


Mark

posted/e-mailed to Dr. Keren and Mr. Kreiberg

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Aug 15 15:46:34 PDT 1996
Article: 133271 of control
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel 
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From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Aug 15 15:46:36 PDT 1996
Article: 133475 of control
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel
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From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Aug 15 15:46:37 PDT 1996
Article: 133505 of control
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From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Aug 15 15:46:37 PDT 1996
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From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Aug 15 15:46:38 PDT 1996
Article: 133526 of control
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
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From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Aug 16 07:52:17 PDT 1996
Article: 57666 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor/"Images" and Rip Van Winkle
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 16:11:50 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 40
Distribution: World
Message-ID: 
References: <3205fa00.587752@news.pacificnet.net> <32060c48.5268076@news.pacificnet.net> <4uang1$4gs@shiva.usa.net>
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In article <4uang1$4gs@shiva.usa.net>, hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

> In article <32060c48.5268076@news.pacificnet.net>,
> tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) whines:
> 
>         Did I say it takes "5 times longer" to retrieve Nizkor's
>         "images" text than the norm? Correction, make that ten times
>         longer.
> 
> First, Mr. Moran complains, "Where are the photos?"  Most likely
> because he has difficulty reading.
> 
> Now, he complains because Nizkor is supplying photos, but it takes
> time to download them!  Furthermore, he implies that "images" are not
> real evidence, and detract from the overall information about Auschwitz!
> 
> Mr. Moran reminds me of the story of the anti-Semitic despot who was
> saluted by a Jew as he traveled.  He had the Jew executed for the
> effrontery.  Some time later he passed a Jew who did not salute him.
> He had that Jew executed as well.  His chief minister was confused
> and asked "Why did you execute one Jew for saluting you and another
> for not saluting?"  The answer, "Because I hate Jews, and I use any
> excuse to persecute them."
> 
> Likewise, Mr. Moran will use any excuse to criticize Nizkor, even if
> he contradicts himself.

Indeed. Moran in a nutshell. Well said. 

Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Aug 16 07:52:19 PDT 1996
Article: 57674 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news-out.microserve.net!news-in.microserve.net!zdc-e!zdc!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 19:15:18 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 47
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References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com>   <4tke3r$era@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <4tmcnp$60v@access1.digex.net> <4tn81d$21h@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <320135B3.2B0E@unb.ca> <4tuvr7$ga4@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <3204EF5B.4C89@unb.ca> <32050A0A.63CE@unb.ca> <4u3ce6$197@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4ud9pa$513@hil-news-svc-2.compuserve.com> <320A6DF1.5A31@unb.ca> <320A7820.6E07@unb.ca> <4uf16j$2k6@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <320E28F2.71F2@unb.ca>  <4ur24j$34b@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <32127EE9.6915@unb.ca>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32127EE9.6915@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison  wrote:

The Troll backpedaled:
>
> > >The Troll has been told this many, many times but appears to be unable to
> > >understand the concept of how sieves work due to being severely mentally
> > >dysfunctional. (And an emottionally dysfunctional, and a socially
> > >dysfunctional, and....)
> > 
> >         And of course I have said the size would be from 1cm down to
about 1/2
> > cm with a small amount of the mass smaller than that.  You apparently
> > are unable to comprehend that.
> 
> 
> Bullshit.  I'm calling you on that.  Give the DejaNews URL of *ONE* post
> where you even considered the possibility of anything smaller than a 
> centimeter.

Even better, how about the Troll claiming that passing bone fragments
though a 1 cm mesh is _impossible_! To whit:

In article <4pdai6$8v1@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
(the Troll) wrote:

"For example, are his [Ho"ss's -MV] grates and bone grinders more ridiculous
than your disolving bone fragments that pass thour a 1 cm mesh?
The former could have existed. The latter is clearly impossible.
You know, that physical law stuff you have such a problem with."  

Source: 

http://xp5.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=%3c4pdai6$8v1@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com%3e&server=dnserver.dbapr&CONTEXT=840074818.8385&hitnum=4


Mark


posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Aug 16 07:52:20 PDT 1996
Article: 57718 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.infi.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!homer.alpha.net!news.ultranet.com!zombie.ncsc.mil!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionist Breakthrough on "Vergasungskeller" from Arthur Butz
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 00:24:36 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 43
Distribution: world
Message-ID: 
References: <4ura57$3l4@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4urfdh$7jb@news.enter.net> <4uro5k$euh@atlas.uniserve.com>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4uro5k$euh@atlas.uniserve.com>, hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary
Ostrov) wrote:

> In <4urfdh$7jb@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken)
> wrote:
> 
> >>   ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) writes:
> >>  In article <4uovup$hgf@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken)
> >>  writes:
> 
> >>  >>   dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) writes:
> >>  >>  Rich Graves writes:
> 
> >>  >>  >Butz doesn't attempt to explain why the only place you find these
> >>  >>  >gas shelters is in concentration camps.
> 
> >>  >>  What makes you think that?
> 
> >>  >   The fact that he makes no mention of them being elsewhere.
> 
> >>  My take on this is that Butz is setting off a trial balloon.  Don't be
> >>  surprised if supplementary documentary indications in support of his
> >>  thesis emerges over the next year or so.  
> 
> >       Sure.  Al Baron is putting it together for him.
> 
> With some help from Giwer and Moran, of course.

This is good news for Butz. He will need all the hot air he can get to get
his lead balloon on trial. Between Moran and Giwer there should be, oh,
about about 4 million cu m of hot air.... 

It might not be enough either. It's a _big_ lead balloon.  

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Aug 16 13:31:00 PDT 1996
Article: 57772 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!news.dra.com!news.goodnet.com!nntp.wwwi.com!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Extraordinary Absence
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 16:16:14 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 30
Message-ID: 
References: <32109570.3178949@news.pacificnet.net> <321072A2.3B3C@rio.com>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <321072A2.3B3C@rio.com>, Chuck Ferree  wrote:

> tom moran wrote:
> 
> Chuck Ferree wrote:
> > 
> >         As the Holocaust facts and the more reliable non-Holocaust facts
> 
> And just what exactly is your point, Tom?
> 
> Thanks for letting me have my turn...now it's your turn. Are you just 
> gonna sit there with your thumb in it's usual place or are you going 
> to disprove any thing I posted in response to your doubts? (the topic 
> was gassings and Wiesenthal, remember)?
> Either you prove me wrong, or I'm gonna start believing all these 
> people who call you a dummy and a liar.

Silly question. He's "gonna sit there" with his "thumb in it's usual
place" of course. Maybe he'll even stick his _other_ thumb in to keep the
first company.... 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Aug 19 16:06:07 PDT 1996
Article: 57859 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Except from Rudolf Report -- Zyklon B
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 15:27:56 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 32
Message-ID: 
References: <4u7v5l$f7d@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <3208abcf.351080@news.pacificnet.net>  <3209ea0c.853809@news.pacificnet.net>  <4uf3k7$36d@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <320c9dde.6993248@news.inetport.com> <4ujsfm$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <320fc3fe.2374059@news.inetport.com><4u7v5l$f7d@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <3208abcf.351080@news.pacificnet.net>  <3209ea0c.853809@news.pacificnet.net>  <4uf3k7$36d@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <320c9dde.6993248@news.inetport.com> <4ujsfm$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <320fc3fe.2374059@news.inetport.com> <4uul07$3el@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4v2i3t$416c@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi146.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4v2i3t$416c@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord
McFee) wrote:

> In message <4uul07$3el@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> - mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt 
> Giwer) writes:
> :>
> :>On Tue, 13 Aug 1996 01:32:37 GMT, mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis)
> :>wrote:
> 
> [deleted]
> 
> :>>Yes, it was used to kill humans at Treblinka. I think you are coming
> :>>around, Matt.
> :>
> :>      Why would I be a Red Queen like you?  
> 
> Egads!  He's flipped his cork again.  An excellent example of the "in media
> hootch" Giwerese (a late night Giwerundian dialect).

Actually, more like he's _pulled_ the cork again. Also an "excellent
example of the 'in media hootch'" he if so fond of. 


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Aug 19 16:06:08 PDT 1996
Article: 57915 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!uwm.edu!news.inc.net!newspump.sol.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: to summarize
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 15:35:07 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 33
Message-ID: 
References: <4uuu8t$7is@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4uvabq$or4@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <3213CB54.96D@unb.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi146.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <3213CB54.96D@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison  wrote:

> Matt  Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
> >     In the last three months the truth seekers (aka revionsits) have
> >beaten the crap out of the holohuggers.  The strange thing is that the
> >holohuggers have not realized they have died in the process in defense
> >of thos position.
> 
> With this attitude, I would love to see what he was working on when
> he claimed to have been with the defense industry.

DIVAD? What _else_ can explain its propensity to target outhouses? 

> "Admiral, this device is *guaranteed* to prevent carriers from being sunk
> by enemy torpedos or missiles.  Once the incoming weapon is detected, the
> computer activates self-destruct explosive packages all over the ship."
> 
> "But...you blow up the ship!"
> 
> "Yes, but the enemy doesn't sink it, so their weapons don't work, so we
> win."

Ahhh, yesss.... The old blow-yourself-up-before-they-sink-you trick.... 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Aug 19 16:06:09 PDT 1996
Article: 57921 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: To Matt Giwer: Dad I'm Converting
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 23:40:58 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 57
Message-ID: 
References: <4v2l93$d2u@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca>  <4v385e$j16@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
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In article <4v385e$j16@Networking.Stanford.EDU>, rich@c2.org (Rich Graves)
wrote:

> mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
> >In article <4v2l93$d2u@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca>, Matt@combase.com (Matthias
> >Giwer) wrote:
> >
> >> Dear Dad:
> >> 
> >> Your disgusting comments regarding jews and the holocaust have shamed
me so 
> >> deeply that I have decided to convert to Judaism. Accordingly, I am
sending 
> >> back to you the 12 pound box of pork rinds and the 2 bottles of Aqua Velva 
> >> that you sent me for Christmas.Please don't drink the Aqua Velva, like
> >> you did last year.All the best to Mom.
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Moshe Giwerstein (my new name)
> >
> >Bad Marduk! Bad Marduk! Forging posts is a _severe_ breach of netiquette
> >and I implore you to cease such activity. 
> 
> FYI, Marduk sent me email earlier denying involvement in a couple of
> these. He's presumed innocent until proven a jerk in this specific case. 
> 
> >That said, the post was quite amusing. 
> 
> Agreed. As long as it's OBVIOUS and harmless.

Yep. However, there are better ways of making fun of the Troll. Like
simply posting wickedly cutting- but harmless -sarire with the Troll (as
usual) being the subject of ridicule, derision, scorn, etc. 

No need to _forge_ posts to do _that_.  };-> 

> Some of the other stuff apparetly from this account and the idt.net
> account (or possibly forged through uunet) were designed to do damage, and
> people took them seriously. 

That's very unfortunate. Net abuse, especially malicious abuse, is a
serious issue. 

> It's always a fine line, of course. Personally, I don't even want to get
close.

Ditto.

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Aug 19 16:06:10 PDT 1996
Article: 57999 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!noos.hooked.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 13:49:40 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 45
Message-ID: 
References: <4ujjj5$4qbk@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4v4iq9$j2f@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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In article <4v4iq9$j2f@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa) wrote:

> Gord McFee wrote on11 Aug 1996 
>  (Ceacaa) wrote:
> 
> :>> The shadows indicate that the picture was taken
> :>> in early morning, for a Polish January/February
> :>> on a mildly windy day.  
> 
> :>Hmmm. Curiouser and curiouser.... I'd very _much_ like for you, Mr.
> :>Allen, to explain- in detail -how you "determined" the the date from the 
> :>shadow angle. I'm sure it will be "interesting."  
> 
> >I suspect that Mr. Allen was being a tad sarcastic, Mark.
> 
> I am sorry to see that the Nizcor/Hoaxter group has 
> such a hard time with science.  

Not nearly as hard as you deniers have.... 

> The date of the photograph was given by Pressac as Jan/Feb.  

For Photo 17 was taken "probaly between 9th and 11th February 1943."
(_Technique_, p.340.)

This is generally confirmed by the snow on the ground.

Like snow doesn't can't be on the on the ground in December or March? 

> The length and direction of the shadows allows
> a good estimate of the time the photograph was
> taken.

Please explain in detail your methodology for establishing the time from
shadows. Was it 7:OO AM or 10:AM, etc.?  What time was it, exactly? 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Aug 19 16:06:10 PDT 1996
Article: 58003 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: To Matt Giwer: Dad I'm Converting
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 17:08:39 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 31
Message-ID: 
References: <4v2l93$d2u@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4v2l93$d2u@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca>, Matt@combase.com (Matthias
Giwer) wrote:

> Dear Dad:
> 
> Your disgusting comments regarding jews and the holocaust have shamed me so 
> deeply that I have decided to convert to Judaism. Accordingly, I am sending 
> back to you the 12 pound box of pork rinds and the 2 bottles of Aqua Velva 
> that you sent me for Christmas.Please don't drink the Aqua Velva, like
you did 
> last year.All the best to Mom.
> 
> 
> Moshe Giwerstein (my new name)

Bad Marduk! Bad Marduk! Forging posts is a _severe_ breach of netiquette
and I implore you to cease such activity. 

That said, the post was quite amusing. 

"Please don't drink the Aqua Velva, like you did last year." -ROTFL! 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Aug 19 16:06:11 PDT 1996
Article: 58020 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!noos.hooked.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "I'm _not_ a Nazi!
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 23:29:15 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 26
Message-ID: 
References:  <4ullv7$4vf@news.enter.net>  <4v0l44$esi@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <2u45oOev1C1E065yn@login.dknet.dk>
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In article <2u45oOev1C1E065yn@login.dknet.dk>, olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole
Kreiberg) wrote:

> Hey why would I have to kill anybody? Isn't this world big enough for
> all of us? It is just a matter of helping every displaced person to the 
> place in the world where he naturally belongs ethically. What is wrong
> with that? 

Because in _every_ instance in recent history where this- government
sponsored ethnic-based involuntary mass expulsions -was even remotely
attempted it has  ended- for whatever reasons -in bloodshed? 

Mr. Kreiberg, given that _your_ "solution" certainly appears to share many
of the same attributes that, for instance, Hitler's Final Solution
expressed, what is to make a sane and rational person believe _your_
"solution will not inevitably also wind with enourmous bloodshed as well? 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Aug 19 16:06:12 PDT 1996
Article: 58041 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Just Another Lie from Giwer
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 21:31:06 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 96
Message-ID: 
References: 
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In article , dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

> An interesting fact regarding the Giwer phenomena is
> that, if you look closely enough, you'll find an
> outright lie in practically each and every article 
> he writes.
> 
> It's like these existence theories in mathematics.
> 
> Let's look at his essay 
> 
>  From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
>  Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>  Subject: What was the basis for the stories about the holocaust?
>  Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 08:12:56 GMT
>  
> [...]
> 
> # And interesting sidebar to this is that Auschwitz had an
> # extensive underground organization and tens of thousands of
> # letters were sent in and out over the years.  Not one has been
> # found that mentions gassing.  Hundreds of diaries were kept by
> # inmates.  Not one of them mentions gassing.
> 
> 
> 
> First, it would be worthwhile to have the source for the
> figure of "tens of thousands of letters", and "hundreds of 
> diaries". But, moreover, while browsing in "Auschwitz: a 
> History in Photographs", ISBN 0-253-35581-8, I found (items
> 192-5) photographs of both letters and diaries which
> do mention the homicidal gas chambers.


 This is one of those _really_ stupid lies Giwer blurts out from
time to time. It's on par with one of his first ones: that the "ramp" at
Birkensu had steps. 

There is a whole chapter in _Anantomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp_
entitled "Diaries of the Sonderkommando" which talks about the six diaries
and some notes written by three members of the Auschwitz Sonderkommando.
The documentation by these Sonderkomandos of Nazi brutality and horror-
and their doom -is quite disturbing. Not the least of which is that they
_did_ write about the gassings. Among the more explict references to the
homicidal gassing by the author, Nahan Cohen are:

"...Gradowski mourns the fate of his people and the spiritual depths they
have reached. He refers to the extermination of the first group of
prisoners from the _Familienlager BIIbm the family camp erected at
Birkenau in September 1943 to contain the first 5,000 Jews from
Thereisienstadt...." (_Anatomy_, p.526.)

***

"...The three documents include two reports of executions, one of 600
children and the other of 3,000 women, and a numerical list, in POlish, of
prisoners who were exterminated by gas between October 9 and 24, 1944, in
crematoria II, III, and V." (Ibid. p.530.)

***

"...In another writing, he describes a group of Hasidim from Hungary, who
after saying _Vidui_, the final confession, invited the Sonderkommando to
drink a last _L'Chaim_ with them. This event so touched the heart of t=one
of the prisoners that four hours he cried for hours and called to his
comrades, 'We have burned enough Jews! Let us destroy everyhting, and go
together to sanctify God's name!' IN contrast the Dayan reports that when
a transport of children from Shavli arrived in November 1943, one of the
children came up to a member of the Sonderkommando and said to him, 'You
are a Jew! How can you drive such sweet children in to be gassed, just so
y9ou can stay alive? Is your life among a band of murderers really dearer
to you than the lives of so many Jewish sacrifices?'" (Ibid. pp.531-532.) 


Auschwitz was the _Anus Mundi_ indeed. Truly the asshole of the world for
such evil and inhuman (or worse- all _too_ human) deprivation, brutality,
and cruelty to have taken place. Our little neo-Nazi Giwer would proabbly
been quite at home there. The only problem would have been, of course,
that the _real_ Nazis would have took one look at him, shaken their heads,
realizing him for the insane _untermensch_ lunatic he is, and gassed him
for the cockroach he is. 

Mark



posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Aug 19 16:06:13 PDT 1996
Article: 58075 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads,soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Re: African-Americans, tired of all that White supremacy?
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 00:06:40 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 35
Message-ID: 
References: <4tveio$kaf@admin.iwwn.com.na> <32036c0c.476176@news.cheetah.net> <320E3746.2B8E@baste.magibox.net> <320F55D4.167E@detroit.sgi.com> <320f8dda.0@news.accutek.com> <4up9l2$44d@decaxp.harvard.edu> <4uqu8j$ak3@decaxp.harvard.edu> <4v5k81$7s5@basement.replay.com>
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In article <4v5k81$7s5@basement.replay.com>, nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
wrote:

[Mr. Staloff's article on the people of Eritrea snipped]

>...Luckily, they [Eritreans] are Aryan blacks and not Negroid blacks.
This allows them to have an IQ high enough to gain another chance at some
sort of government and decency. Ethiopia has a long Western tradition of
Judaism (now gone), Christianity, and (hiss) Mohammedanism, the world's
next big bad boy. So, the seeds of another and another and another civil
war remain there for some idiot to start up again.

One can only shake one's head in wonder at the absolute _bizarreness_ of
what some people seem to believe. "Aryan blacks?" "Allows them to have an
IQ high enough another chance at some sort of government and decency?"

I'm sorry, I can't hold it in any longer-

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Leave to the White-Power Rangers to provide a laugh or two.... At their expense.

Only if some of the white trailer-trash in _this_ country had the gumption
to try as hard as those Eritreans do. Half our social problems might get
solved. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Aug 19 16:06:14 PDT 1996
Article: 58136 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!news.dra.com!news.starnet.net!spool.mu.edu!news.sol.net!news.inc.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sgi.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Here We Go Again (Re: Evil Holocaust Revisionism)
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 18:13:30 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 19
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In article ,
schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

[snip]

> And by the way, when are you going to respond to the testimony of Franz
> Suchomel, which I posted a few days ago.

Probably as soon as he grows some pubic hair.... 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Aug 19 16:06:15 PDT 1996
Article: 58244 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 09:18:25 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 51
Message-ID: 
References: <7aH3oOev1iBC065yn@login.dknet.dk> <4ullr4$4vf@news.enter.net>   <2AV4oOev1KOG065yn@login.dknet.dk>  <6$P5oOev109N065yn@login.dknet.dk>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <6$P5oOev109N065yn@login.dknet.dk>, olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole
Kreiberg) wrote:

> In article , Mark Van Alstine wrote:
> >In article <2AV4oOev1KOG065yn@login.dknet.dk>, olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole
> >Kreiberg) wrote:
> >
> >> In article , Mark Van
Alstine wrote:
> >> >In article , olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole
> >> >Kreiberg) wrote:
> >> >
> >> Hey, where in the .... is Ostland? 
> >
> >The East, Mr. Kreiberg, the East. 
> >
> >>...It sound to me like some Kraut fantasy land.
> >
> >Indeed. The Nazis were definetely fantasizing about the East. Salivating
> >even. Their fantasies of Volkdom and Lebensraum allowed them to
> >rationalize launching a barbaric war of conquest, unmatched in human
> >history, on the peoples who lived there. 
> >
> >The East, Mr. Kreiberg, became a killing field for the Nazis. Not the
> >least of whom's victims were several million Jews. 
> >
> So Ostland was like "Westland" to the Americans 200 years ago - A place to
> conquor and settle. A lot of Red Indians were deported from the east to
> US "Westland". Oklohoma started out as such dumping ground for Red Indians.  
> One of those events of Red Indians being deported is called something like
> the long march of tears. Have you Americans forgotten about that? Is the
> reason that you Americans are so busy remembering German history that you 
> hope German atrocities may overshadow your own which thus may be forgotten? 

And what has this to do with the Holocaust, Mr. Kreiberg? Why nothing, of
course! Obviously, when faced with the evidence that your racist Nazi
heros were brutal mass murderers, you grasp at straws to attempt to
deflect criticism away from them and to paint them in a more sympathetic
light.

That's called Nazi apologia, Mr. Kreiberg. Ergo, you are also a Nazi apologist. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Aug 19 16:06:16 PDT 1996
Article: 58273 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!newspump.sol.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "rich graves" [and Shakespeare, and racist kooks]
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 07:34:45 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 36
Message-ID: 
References:  <4v8s5k$gm2@newsbf02.news.aol.com> 
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article , rich@c2.org (Rich
Graves) wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> In article <4v8s5k$gm2@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, dvdthomas@aol.com
> (DvdThomas) wrote:
> 
> > Rich Graves wrote:
> > 
> > >Besides, thou sottish tickle-brained turlygod, Antigone and The Birds
> > >expressed similar sentiments, predating Sturluson by a millenium. So
> > >there.
> > 
> > Now you got me confused.  If Antigone and/or The Birds are his sottish
> > tickle-brained turlygod(s), then it should by "thy" and not "thou."  On
> > the other hand, if your correspondent is the sottish tickle-brained
> > turlygod, then it flies (but even The Birds couldn't fly for a millenium).
> >  This is potentially the most serious breach of outmoded grammar since
> > that fifties tear-jerker delivered as one of the Twelve Commandments of
> > Love that "Thy shalt never love another."
> 
> Note, readers of alt.revisionism, DvdThomas pedantically criticized my
> grammar, proving himself an ass.

Forsooth, hoist by his own petard! How fitting.

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Aug 19 18:28:21 PDT 1996
Article: 83023 of soc.culture.german
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news-out.microserve.net!news-in.microserve.net!mr.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 20:12:57 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 102
Message-ID: 
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com>    <$jp4oOev144O065yn@login.dknet.dk>
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In article <$jp4oOev144O065yn@login.dknet.dk>, olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole
Kreiberg) wrote:

> In article , Mark Van Alstine wrote:
> >In article , olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole
> >Kreiberg) wrote:
> >
> >Mr. Kreiberg, your post is so chocked full of falsehoods, errors, and
> >absurd claims and assumptions it is difficult to address them all, as it
> >would to much too much time for me at the moment. However, I would like to
> >illustrate to the readership of alt.revisionism the caliber (or lack
> >thereof, actually) of your intellectual integrity and research that you
> >have repeatedly demonstrated here. To whit, I have chosen just one of the
> >more flagrantly outrageous and demonstrably false statements from your
> >post: 
> >
> >[snip]
> >
> >> It is still disputed whether there were a ventilation systems in the 
> >> alleged gaschambers. If you inspect those gaschambers on display in 
> >> e.g. Auschwitz and other camps it is impossible to detect any sign 
> >> that ventillation systems have been installed.... 
> >
> >This is such a boldface lie it is almost unbelievable. (That is until one
> >remembers that Mr. Kreiberg also claimed, in another boldface lie, that
> >corspes would explode when placed into the Topf incineration furnaces.)
> 
>  Hey I am not lying. 

As I have demonstrated, yes, you are. 

> ...It is true that I once quoted an article by Ernst Zundel
> in which the Canadian crematorium manager, Ivan Lagace claims that if
> you fail to cool down the crematorium somewhat before you enter the next 
> body you may risk causing an explosion. This is not something that *I* claim 
> but rather something that Ivan Lagace claims, or perhaps Ernst Zundel claims
> that Ivan Lagace claims.

It was also shown to be absolute poppycock. A lie. Yet you continued
(continue?) to advocate it seriously. That made (makes?) you a liar by
extension as well. 

> [snip]
> >
> >Clearly, Mr. Kreiberg you are _seriously_ in err with your claims that
> >"...it is impossible to detect any sign that ventillation systems have
> >been installed." In fact, Mr. Kreiberg, your claim is so egregiously false
> >that it is obvious that you lied through your teeth when you wrote this. 
> >
>  By ventillation I meant some electrical fans or some other active 
> exhaustation machinery and not just some passive ventillation channels.

Mr. Kreiberg, the ventilation ducts in L,Keller 1 were not "passive." They
were part of a _forced_ ventilation system, as I clearly pointed out. (Can
you _read_, Mr. Kreiberg, or do you simply find it convient to lie about
such things when they clearly contradict what you say?_) 
 
> Krema I has no windows and there are two doors, one of which leads to the 
> crematorium while the other leads to the shower room, so it would not be 
> strange to find some passive ventillation. 

It certainly would, considering L.Keller 1 was a homicidal gas chamber.
Irregardless, the evidence that L.Keller 1 had a ventilation system
installed is overwhelming. 

> In any of the gaschambers on display you will find electrical or active 
> ventillation installations preserved. 

Which gas chambers are these Mr. Kreiberg? 

> I find this strange. 

What? That "gaschambers on display" or that they had ventillation systems?
Why is that? 

> You claim that you  are able to prove that machinery for this purpose were 
> bought.... 

Bought and _installed_, Mr. Kreiberg. Herr Messing installed them,
according to his timesheets.  

> ...Fine, but what  had happened to it?

The Nazis shipped the components of the ventilation systems to Mauthausen
and Gross-Rosen when they dismantled Kremas II and III. Also, some of the
ventillation ducting, belonging to one of the L.Keller 2s, was found in
the Auschwitz Bauhof in 1945. (cf. _Technique_, p.363.) 

Keep squirming, Mr. Kreiberg. It's amusing. 

Mark


posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Aug 19 21:10:09 PDT 1996
Article: 58293 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!newspump.sol.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 08:18:35 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 120
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References:  <4v8tl8$hb2@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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In article <4v8tl8$hb2@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa) wrote:

> Mark Van Alstine wrote10 Aug 1996  
> 
> >And where may these photgraphs be found, Mr. Allen? 
> >Please cite them. 
>     Pressac, Technique  pg.  332 photo 1,  possibly photo 2
>      ibid, pg. 338 photo 338.
> 
> >> The photograph of discussion was taken during the construction
> >> period when roofing would have been going on. 
> 
> >The roofing to _what_, Mr. Allen? The L.Kellers? 
> >Not quite. [snip]. The roof of the L.Kellers had
> >been _completed_ before the end of January. The 
> >photo in question was probably taken between 
> >February 9 and 11. 
>      Your assumption that the roofs
>     were completed before the end of January is wrong.
>     They clearly were NOT.  
>     The water proofing layer of the roof was _above_ 
>     the rebar enforced slab. 

> If you refer to Pressac pg. 338. Photo 14 dated 
> 1/25 or 26/43 you will see that on that the picture 
> shows a first or second pour of the slab which contained 
> the rebar.  Dispite your interpretation of Pressac's note,  
> this pour was done well before the waterproof layer 
> was put on, let alone the final concrete cap.


The pertinent part of the caption to Photo 14 reads:

"View of the western end of Krema II, taken shortly before  Photo 13,
dated 25th or 26th January 1943.

"It shows the snow being cleared from the roof of Leichenkeller 2 (future
undressing room) before the pouring of the final layer of concete. The
damp proofing of Leichenkeller 2 has already been completed....
(_Technique_, p.338.)

Now, Mr. Allen, what exactly is there to "interpret" about Pressac's
caption to Photo 14? Pressac unequivocably _states_ that "the damp
proofing of Leichenkeller 2 has already been completed."

Your sir, are mightily confused. 

> >> The photograph was also taken to "document" the 
> >>construction process. 
> 
> >Indeed. It shows Krema II nearly completed and Krema III 
> >under construction. 
>
>     Indeed NOT.  The window frames are not even all in.  The
> earth not piled against the sides of the Leichenkeller.
> Actual completion of Crema II was almost two months 
> away, despite priority rush construction. 

Mr. Allen, the construction of Krema II was nearly complete at this point,
as is obvious by the photos and the supporting Bauleitung documentation.
Such details as window frames (I see _perhaps_ only one missing window
frame) are trivialities, as is the abscence of the berm over L.Keller 1.
You are trying to split hairs here, Mr. Allen, and looking the fool for
it! 

What basically remained was the installation of the (delayed) ventilation
systems. This was most apparent in regards to the ventilation sysem for
L.Keller 1 (the homicidal gas chamber) which was installed, tested,
pronouced operational, and then brought into service on March 13 (14th?),
1943, for the murder of nearly 1,500 Jews from the Cracow ghetto. This, of
course, was about _one_ month after Photo 17 was taken. 

> Your interpretation would have the Germans "documenting"
> the homocidal nature of the Leichenkeller.  

Indeed they did, Mr. Allen, though unwittingly with several "slips of the pen." 

> This does not make sense in light of the fact that that you also claim that
> the Crema project was "top secret".   

Of course it makes sense, Mr. Allen. Workers, managers, etc. either
figured out the homicidal intent- or _knew_ of it -and made the mistake of
_not_ keeping to the literary facade (used in offical documentation) that
L.Keller was was a morgue and, instead, called it by what it truly was: a
gas chamber. 

> The Revisionist view is that the the picture
> was taken by the construction firm to document the 
> progress of their work. 

The photos of the construction process were taken by the SS Bauleitung and
not by the contruction firms hired by the SS to build the Kremas. The
Nazis were quite strict about the taking photos in the camp: 

"Order No. 4/43, dated 2 February 1943 and signed by the camp's
commandant, SS_Obersturmbannfu"hrer Rudolf Ho"ss, was explicit on this.
Item 3 reads: 'I want to point out once more that taking pictures in the
camp is forbidden. I shall punish with the utmost severity those who do
not observe this order.' The only exception was for official photographs
specifically authorized."
 
Source: http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/photos.01

> As part of the scene the  photographer had a train engine puffing away in the
> foreground and the three boxes of roofing material laid out (ready to apply) 
> in the background.

Well, Mr. Allen, at least you got the train part correct this time. It's
an improvement, however slight.


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Aug 19 21:10:11 PDT 1996
Article: 58309 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!news.inet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ernst Zundel, UFO Man (Re: Sign up for the WORLD famous
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 14:47:11 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 30
Message-ID: 
References: <31F2BDE2.447C@ix.netcom.com> <4uib2v$fr1@molokini.conterra.com> <4unk21$ouq@infor <4uv1c6$gos@news.ios.com>  <321520F5.451B@lis.ab.ca> <4v9ad1$18j@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4v9pqb$apm@lendl.cc.emory.edu>
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In article <4v9pqb$apm@lendl.cc.emory.edu>, libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu
(william c anderson) wrote:

> Matt  Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
> 
> :       You really have to get the mindset of the war propaganda of the times.
> : Nazis were credited with every imaginable (and mostly imaginary)
> : superweapon.  In fact a very well received movie regarding Nazis
> : cloning supermen in Brazil was a major success despite its impossible
> : biology as little was 20 years ago.  
> : 
> :       If Zundel was a ripoff so what the movie.  
> 
> Matt--IT'S A MOVIE!  It's fiction, for godsake.  Do you really
> have this much trouble with reality?

Yes, he does. He is _severely_ "reality challenged." In his case it's also
a progressive mental disorder.

[snip]

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Aug 19 21:10:11 PDT 1996
Article: 58311 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer & Son Again
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 17:10:37 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 38
Message-ID: 
References: 
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In article , dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

> I wrote to Matt Giwer:
> 
> ## I only pray that your children (if you have any) are
> ## better than you.
> 
> To which he responded:
> 
>  From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
>  Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism
>  Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
>  Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 05:40:17 GMT
>  Organization: images incarnate
> 
> # I do not have to pray, I know.  His shooting skills simply
> # are not as good as mine as yet.  It is just a matter of time.  
> # He is also slower to anger than I, perhaps due to his weighing 
> # near 300 lbs and built like Alley Oop.  But then, it is the 
> # dark alley of your oop.  
> 
> Can anyone figure out what the Giwer is talking about?
> 
> Is this a threat? It sure looks like one. 

Considereing that Giwer can only shoot blanks, I consider it more along
the lines of a psycho-sexual fantasy on his part....

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Aug 20 07:26:12 PDT 1996
Article: 58382 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 09:13:29 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 170
Message-ID: 
References:  <4v8toq$hcr@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi148.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4v8toq$hcr@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa) wrote:

> Mark Van Alstine wrote  on 10 Aug 1996  
> CEACAA wrote
> > None of these points is overwhelming but they do \
> >provide a convergence of evidence.
> 
> >Indeed. Convergence of the evidence that three 
> >of the "little chimneys"
> >are completed and the fourth yet to be built. 
>    Indeed NOT.  Your wild speculation that the 
>     "little chimneys" were built one at a time
>     shows a profound ignorance of normal construction
>      processes.  

>  Further, there is no sign of any fourth being
>  built, no sign of any preparations for the fourth
>  such as hole being chipped in the roof, bricks or morter.

Mr. Allen, are you _seriously_ suggesting that you can detect the presence
(or lack thereof) of a 70 cm x 70 cm hole in the roof of the L.Keller in
Photo 17, given the angle of the photo, the visiable area of the exposed
roof, and the poor resolution?

If so, then please, Mr. Allen, _show_ me, exactly, using Photo 17, where
there is no hole in the roof of L.Keller 1 where the fourth "little
chimney" should be.

And then, please explain why it would have been _necessary_ to "chip" all
four holes at the same time beforehand- thus exposing the interior of the
L.Keller to the elements while the "little chimneys" were being
constructed -instead of cutting the holes as each "little chimney" was
built. 

>  The photograph would have had to have been taken
>  just as the third "Lt. Chim." was completed but before
>  any work was started on the fourth.

Indeed so, Mr. Allen. What an astute observation! 

> Thus, your claim that three of the "little
> chimneys" are completed and a fourth "yet to be built"
> requires both an unusually method of job proceedure
> as well as a miraculous timing of the photograph.

Hardly, Mr. Allen. All it requires is that the "little chimneys," for
whatever reason, be constructed in sequence. Having been involved in the
housing construction industry in my youth, I can venture the opinion that
this is hardly an unusual "method of job proceedure." If you are of the
opinion otherwise, I would be interested in the specifics that you draw
such a conclusion from. 

> >> It is my recollection that the Leichenkeller was roofed
> >> with an asphalt-like coating. 
> 
> >Your recollection is faulty, Mr. Allen. The roof to the 
> >L.Kellers were of concrete that _contained_ a layer 
> >of bituminous felt damp-proofing. 
> 
> Mark, you are a contentious goofball. Go look up a definition of asphalt.
> American Heritage def. is as follows: A brownish-black solid or semisolid
> mixture of  BITUMENS  obtained from native deposits or as a petroleum 
> byproduct, used in paving, roofing, and  waterproofing. (emphasis added) 
> You are so eager to argue that you make a fool out of yourself.

Mr. Allen, both the Bauleitung contruction drawings, memoranda, and the
photos of the ruins of the L.Kellers indicate that bituminous
damp-proofing was sandwiched between layers of concrete in the roof and
floor of the L.Kellers. 

In other words, Mr. Allen, not only is there sufficient documentary
evidence of this, but _phsycical_ evidence of this in the ruins as well. 

Would you care for a foppish hat with bells while you caper around denying
the obvious, Mr. Allen? 

 
> >> Whatever the roofing material was, it is quite likely 
> >>that it arrived in  crates. 
> 
> >That is irrelevent, Mr. Allen, as the roofs were 
> >completed weeks before the photo was taken.
> 
> It is highly relevant.  And, as show above, you are
> wrong about the dates of completion of the roofs.

Please, then, Mr. Allen, document this in detail. The dates I have given
for the photos come directly from the captions to the photos. These dates,
moreover, are supported by Bauleitung memoranda concerning the contruction
of the L.Kellers and Krema II. 

Until then, Mr. Allen, you are arguing irrelevancies. 

> > Remember that there were two layers of roof over the original slab.
> 
> >That is not in accordance with the construction 
> >drawings, Mr. Allen. the
> >Huta drawing 109/13A, for instance, clearly shows 
> >that the roof consisted of just two layer, which sandwiched the
> >damp-proofing between them. (Ibid.
> >p.323.)
> 
>  Mark, you poor simpleton, go make yourself a baloney
>  sandwich (no insult intended).  Wonderbread, baloney,
>  wonderbread.  Take a bite.  As you sit and masticate,
>  look at the sandwich.  Are there three layers in the
>  sandwich or two with one layer between them?

Ah, then you conceed that the roof did indeed _contain_ the damp-proofing
sandwiched between two layers of concrete! Excellent, Mr. Allen, there is
hope for you yet. Now you can desist in your insistance that the
damp-proofing was placed on _top_ of the roof and therefore you can desist
in your absurd claim regarding the "little chimneys" being "crates of
roofing material" as there would have been no damp-proofing material
required for roof of the L.Keller when the photo was taken.  

> > Proof of what these boxes were is probably in the
> > construction records at Auschwitz.  If Bituminous felt
> > came in 3 x 4 crates then we have an important piece of
> > the puzzle.
>
> This information and much more would be found if
> Revisionists had funds to carry on  review of
> primary source material.

Better if the deniers were to have a modicum honesty and personal
integrity in regards to the evidence.... 

> >Such baloney, Mr. Allen. Such a blind eye you turn 
> >to the plethora of evidence to the contrary! Such intellectual
> >dishonesty. Tsk tsk. 
> 
> Actually, it was you who presented the photograph as
> powerful evidence of there being holes in the roof
> of Leichenkeller 1, Crema II.  That had all the impact
> of Comet Kahoutek.  
> Now, you site a "plethora of evidence"
> to support a position which has no inherent strenght
> of itself,  ie. the picture of three boxes shows that
> there were four holes in the roof of Leichenkeller 1.
> 
> You've equivicated, paltered, and avoided  reconciling 
> your earlier pronouncment about the size of the 
> "little chimneys" with the size and shape of the boxes 
> in the picture.

How so, Mr. Allen? Please be specific in your accusations. 

> Or have you forgotten your claim that the "lt. Chim.s"
> were 70 cm x 70 cm and extended about 40 cm above 
> the concrete roof?????

Indeed I haven't forgotten, Mr. Allen. I would point out that the 70 cm x
70 cm dimensions are that of the wire mesh Zyklon B introduction column.
The dimensions of the "little chimney," as it _contains_ introduction
column, the would logically need to be a bit larger. This, of course, is
completely corroborated by Photo 17 on p. 340 of _Technique_. 

But you knew that already, Mr. Allen. You apparantly just can't bring
yourself to acknowledge the truth. Again.

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Aug 20 07:26:13 PDT 1996
Article: 58393 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: gassing evidence bears interest
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 14:22:02 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 188
Message-ID: 
References: <4u3gqb$f9d@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4uheoq$gfa@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>  <4ujifm$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>  <4v061p$rqp@hil-news-svc-4.compuserve.com> <4v5063$iah@Vir.com>  <4v8fg1$ctf@Vir.com>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4v8fg1$ctf@Vir.com>, Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:

> mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
> 
>  It's not my intention to start a 3 months discussion on irrelevant details
> as you sems to like it Mark, but since you chosed to attack on that I
> will simply give more infos, as much as I can, from this publication (revue
> d'histoire revisionniste, no 3) where Faurisson gives his explanation. BTW,
> since Ehrlich had a recent discussion about the shower heads and since this
> is also a part of the article, I'll send him a duplicata.
> 
>  Concerning the tight door for the krema: in page 430 of A.T.O. , Pressac
> talk about it as a 'definitive' proof about mass gasing there despite he
> add on page 439 that it is just an 'indirect' proof. In Faurison's view,
> a tight door was a banality since before and during the war, every room
> that could be used as a shelter was equiped with an hermetic door accounting
> for eventual bombardment. 

Please cite the exact text of Faurison's ludicrous "view." 

> There's also another possibility, since crematory ovens which works at hight 
> temperatures were in the vicinity, there was some risks of explosion, gas 
> emission, explosions. 

Please cite the exact text for this ludicrous "view." 

> You stated that other buildings were never equipped with an hermetic door, 
> but bring no evidence to support your claim. 

Here's one example of evidence for you, Mr. Beaulieu: Please refer to
Photo 15 on p.15 of _Technique_. It is a photo of the delousing gas
chamber on the ground floor of the western corner of Block 1. In the photo
there are _two_ doors: One to the gas chamber and one to the interior of
the building. Only the door to the _gas chamber_ has a gas-tight door. The
door to the interior of the building is a "normal" door. (A double-door
with large panes of glass.) Now, Mr. Beaulieu, what makes the delousing
gas chamber, which was _converted_ from a room, more suited to being a
(air raid?) "shelter?" Why _nothing_, of course. The delousiong gas
chamber in Block 1 was _just_ as vulnerable to "eventual bombardment" as
the rest of Block 1 was.

Your argument (i.e. Faurison's "view") is patently absurd. The delousing
gas chamber of Block 1- like all gas chambers at Auschwitz, INCLUDING
L.Keller 1 -had a gas-tight door _because_ it was a gas chamber. Those
rooms/buildings that were not gas chambers did not. It is as simple as
that. 

> Faurisson claim also that most of the crematories had a room where
> the bodies were wash. 

So? In Krema II there was a corpse washing room on the _ground_ floor of
the Krema. Furthermore, there is no evidence whatsoever that it had a
"hermetic door." In fact, there is no indication in the construction plans
that L.Keller 1 had a gas-tight door either. (cf. _Technique_,
pp.302-303.) This was a ad hoc change made _after_ construction began. A
change made _only_ for L.Keller 1. 

> In another excerp (p.234) it is say by Pressac that
> Bischoff asked the 15 may 1943 to Tpf & Sons to draw the installations for
> 100 showers that had to use to water heated by the garbage incinerator of
> krema lll. 

Mr. Beaulieu, you're a naughty little denier! So disingenous you are! Tsk tsk. 

The text in question reads:

"On 6th April, Vedag informed Huta that they could not give the usual two
year guarantee becuase the floor (probably basements of crematorium III)
had been sealed with only one layer of damp-proofing material. The firm
had been warned of this by their foreman at Birkenau, who said it was
BECAUSE THESE BUILDINGS [Krematoriien II and III] WERE BUILT TO BE ONLY
TEMPORARY ,,weil diese Bauten nur als Voru"bergehend ausgefu"rt werden>>)
[Document 53].

"[This statement about the future of the Krematorien goes considerably
further than does Camp Commandant Hoess in his  <>

    "<>.

"So Hoess envisaged that once the externimation was over, i.e. when there
were no more Jews left in Europe, the gas chambers and undressing rooms
would be converted into baths and showers. It was already with this in
mind that Bischoff, through the intermnediary of Ja"hrling, requested Topf
on 15th May 1943 to draw up plans for 100 showers using water heated by
the waste incinerator of Krematorium III (this systemn was found in the
cremartorium of KL Natzweiller (Struhof), where the incinerator supplied
the heat for the hot water tank for the showers next door to the
incinerator room [cf. Ibid. pp.559, 561, 562. -MV]). Traditinal historians
have [wrongly] interpreted Hoess' remark as proof that Leichenkeller 1 of
the Krematorien could be used both as showers AND gas chambers, because
they did not know exactly how the homicidal gas chambers functioned at
Birkenau. They thought they were equipped with REAL SHOWERS with the
associated pipework and imagined that the SS could deliver toxic gas or
harmless water, as they wished. A precise knowledge of the operation of
the gas chambers makes it possible to confirm that Hoess was indeed
thinking of the FUTURE of the krematorien, AFTER the extermination...."
(Ibid. p.234.) 

Clearly, it is self-evident from the text that the "100 showers using
water heated by the waste incinerator of Krematorium III" (cf. Ibid.
pp.236, 241)  were for the (unrealized) FUTURE of the Krema AFTER Hilter's
Final Solution had drawn to its bloody close.

Even so, I still know of no actual construction document that shows
L.Keller 1 with _functional_ showers. Perhaps you would care to cite this
consrtruction document you aparantly believe exists so that I may look at
it?  

> There was a shower room there since the map show it, and since
> Bishop letter's talk about a REAL connection with hot water, this mean that
> those shower heads had to be use there not for gasing but for another purpose.
> So why not in other crematorias?

Mr. Beaulieu, Bischof's letter was in reference to the FUTURE, when the
Final Solution was over and the Kremas would no longer be used for the
extermination of the Jews. (See above.) As for "the map" showing showers,
what "map?" All the construction drawings of the _L.Kellers_ in
_Technique_ certainly do NOT, as far as I can discern, show any
_functional_ showers. The only _functional_ shower shown in the
construction drawings show the "Brause" (shower) located sown the hall
>from  the Capo's room. The only other mention of actual _functional_
showers I have run across was by Dr. Nysizli:

"...In the morning I awoke with a hangover. I crossed to the shower which
had been set up in a neighboring room and let the icy waters of the
Vistula splash over me for half an hour. It refreshed my tired nerves and
chased away the heaviness caused by the sleeping pills. 

"How the Germans cared for us! They had built a beutiful ten-man shower,
made of gleaming tile for the exclusive use of the Sonderkommando
members...." (Nysizli, _Auschwitz_, p.69.)

Further evidence that this "ten-man shower" was in the Krema- and NOT in
the L.Kellers -is provided by Tauber: 

"...After the motors [for the forced draught installation in the chinmey
annex] were removed, some wash basins for the Sonderkommando were
installed next to the chimney [30]..." (_Technique_. p.488.)

Examing Bauleitung drawing 933 [p.491 annotated by Pressac?] it is easily
seem that the "[30]" Pressac gives for the location these "wash basins" is
the Motor Room ("Motor-R.) in the chimney annex. (cf. Document 21; Ibid.
pp.491, 276-277.) 

Clearly, Mr. Beaulieu, your "point" regarding Bischof's letter and your
subsequent inference that "those shower heads had to be use there not for
gasing but for another purpose" is specious. "Those shower heads"
mentioned by Biscof never existed. In addition whatever _functional_
showers that _did_ exist were located on the ground floor of the Krema and
NOT in the L.Keller 1. 

>   In 1987, G. Wellers, who was ready normally to accept any kind of proof,
>  said to the VSD magazine:
> 
>   So, this story about shower heads, you know, it doesnt proove anything.
>   (Zero, Interview, may 1987, p.73)

And Mr. Wellers was absolutely correct. Your (Mr. Faurisson's?) tall story
about showers (and thus showerheads) proves nothing- except how as to low
you stoop in twisting the facts to suit your dogmatic Holocaust denial. 

>  I've not study more those aspects. I know that C. Porter has a tendency to
> disclaim more often the authenticity of documents than Faurisson, but one
> is free to do what he want with that (yap now Mark)

Perhap then, Mr.Beaulieu, it _would_ behoove you to "study more those
aspects" before you open _your_ yap? It would certainly help prevent you
>from  looking like the denier parrot you appear to be- spouting Faurisson's
absurd and specious drivel chapter and verse like it was Cannon. 

Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Aug 20 07:26:13 PDT 1996
Article: 58397 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.reed.edu!news.lava.net!news.pixi.com!news.zeitgeist.net!bdt.com!miwok!hsno.wco.com!news.walltech.com!newsfeed1.aimnet.com!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Here We Go Again (Re: Evil Holocaust Revisionism)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 15:08:21 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 58
Message-ID: 
References: <4v0rv5$dab@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4v3601$5u9@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <32171e47.2472239@news.inetport.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi148.rbi.com
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In article <32171e47.2472239@news.inetport.com>, mcurtis@inetport.com wrote:

> kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele) wrote:
> 
> >mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
> >
> >>In article , dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel
> >Keren)
> >>wrote:
> >
> >>> kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> # Now the exterminations [of Stalin and Pol Pot], in contrast to the
> >"holocaust, 
> >>> # made complete, plausible sense, i.e., they were done by the
> >>> # obvious and efficient means of killing -- by bullet 
> >>> # and/or starvation. 
> >>> 
> >>> The Nazis starved, shot, or overworked to death half
> >>> of the victims. The rest were killed in gas chambers.
> >>> 
> >>> All your empty rhetoric can't hide the fact that killing
> >>> with poison gas was very cheap, very efficient, and
> >>> saved ammunition.
> >
> >>Indeed. On average 0.02 Reichmarks (1992: $.08) per victim. A rifle
> >>cartridge cost more than that. 
> >
> >>Mark
> >
> >Care to show your calculations in achieving $.08?

Care to show that your mouth is connected to your brain? 

> >Why don't you do your calculations over again, this time factoring in, as
> >you should have done before, the costs of -everything else- involved in
> >"gassing" prisoners under the circumstances.  

Why don't you pay attention? I origionally posted these caluclation in a
post to the threas "Re: Here We Go Again (Re: Evil Holocaust Revisionism)"
(Message ID: ). 

You can find it in DejaNews at:

http://xp5.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=%3cmvanalst-1008961449350001@rbi144.rbi.com%3e&server=dnserver.db96q3&CONTEXT=840492125.4770&hitnum=0


[snip]

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Aug 20 07:26:14 PDT 1996
Article: 58429 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Subject: Re: McFee's abject begging
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 15:35:23 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 35
Message-ID: 
References: <4uqedk$gla@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4urs1f$ngd@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca><4uqedk$gla@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4urs1f$ngd@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4usvsa$o26@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <4v2i3l$416c@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net><4uqedk$gla@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4urs1f$ngd@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca><4uqedk$gla@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4urs1f$ngd@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4usvsa$o26@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <4v2i3l$416c@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>  <4v8i6p$3fna@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:58429 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:476

In article <4v8i6p$3fna@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord
McFee) wrote:

> In message  - mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark
> Van Alstine) writes:
> :>
> :>In article <4v2i3l$416c@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord
> :>McFee) wrote:
> :>
> :>> 
> :>> What else could one expect in this kangaroo court environment?  Why,
the FBs
> :>> are judge, jury and executioner, aided and abetted by that Mcvayfeinsten
> :>> person.  What chance do I have?
> :>
> :>Well, if you changed your name to "Joey," I would think you'd have a
> :>_better_ chance. You know, appeal to their maternal instincts for
> :>clemency.... };->
> 
> You mean, completely subjugate myself and be their little boy?  Is even a FBTS
> worth *that*?  :-)

Hey, don't ask _me_. I'm not the one whining about not getting a FBTS.... };-> 

_I'm_ whining about not getting a ZOG tee. Totally different. ;-) 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Aug 20 10:25:43 PDT 1996
Article: 133701 of control
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: cmsg cancel 
Control: cancel 
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cancel 


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Aug 20 10:25:44 PDT 1996
Article: 133844 of control
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel 
Control: cancel 
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From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Aug 20 10:25:44 PDT 1996
Article: 133848 of control
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel
Subject: cmsg cancel 
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From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Aug 20 10:55:51 PDT 1996
Article: 58438 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Just Another Lie from Giwer
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 16:47:18 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 36
Message-ID: 
References:   <4v7cqk$6vh@access5.digex.net>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4v7cqk$6vh@access5.digex.net>, mstein@access5.digex.net
(Michael P. Stein) wrote:

> In article ,
> Mark Van Alstine  wrote:
> >There is a whole chapter in _Anantomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp_
> >entitled "Diaries of the Sonderkommando" which talks about the six diaries
> >and some notes written by three members of the Auschwitz Sonderkommando.
> 
>     I have to say that _I_ find some of the stuff to be dubious due to the
> florid literary style.  I can believe that an SK member might have
> literary talent, I can believe that one or two victims might be polished
> speakers.  But on a statistical basis, I can't believe that _so many_
> people who talked to him would deliver such flowery quotes.  At a dead
> minimum I think at least one diary writer "improved" the dialogue if not
> inventing it outright. 

That's quite possible. The point being, however, is that the
Sonderkommandos, in their diaries and notes, _did_ mention that gassings
took place. Add to this the testimony, depositions, memoirs, etc. of
_surviving_ Sonderkommandos and prisoners who witnessed the extermnination
aktions (e.g. Dr. Bendel, Mu"ller, Dr. Nyiszli, Ol'ere, Tauber, etc.) and
it becomes self-evident that gassings _were_ mentioned -and that they took
place.

Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Aug 20 10:55:51 PDT 1996
Article: 58440 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "I'm _not_ a Nazi!
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 00:14:47 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 91
Message-ID: 
References:  <4ullv7$4vf@news.enter.net>  <4v0l44$esi@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <2u45oOev1C1E065yn@login.dknet.dk>  
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article , olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole
Kreiberg) wrote:

> In article , Mark Van Alstine wrote:
> >In article <2u45oOev1C1E065yn@login.dknet.dk>, olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole
> >Kreiberg) wrote:
> >
> >> Hey why would I have to kill anybody? Isn't this world big enough for
> >> all of us? It is just a matter of helping every displaced person to the 
> >> place in the world where he naturally belongs ethically. What is wrong
> >> with that? 
> >
> >Because in _every_ instance in recent history where this- government
> >sponsored ethnic-based involuntary mass expulsions -was even remotely
> >attempted it has  ended- for whatever reasons -in bloodshed? 
> 
>  I am not suggesting doing things in a drastic manner but rather little by 
> little over the years. I am certain that it can be done with as little 
> violence as when the US authorities are apprehending and deporting illegal 
> aliens.
> 
> >
> >Mr. Kreiberg, given that _your_ "solution" certainly appears to share many
> >of the same attributes that, for instance, Hitler's Final Solution
> >expressed, what is to make a sane and rational person believe _your_
> >"solution will not inevitably also wind with enourmous bloodshed as well? 
> >
>  First of all there is no war going on. 

Neither was there in 1933 when Dachau was opened. Nor when the Nuremberg
Racial Laws were made. Nor when Kristallnacht was unleashed on the Jews of
Germany. 

Nor was there much of a _military_ war going on in the occupied
territories early in the war in the East short of Russia. If anything, the
war and martial law the occupied teritories were placed under _aided_ the
genocide and ethnic cleansing in much of the occupied territories.

But nevertheless it led to about 12 million innocent civilians being
murdered purely out of ethnic/racial hatred. Not to mwntion the millions
of comabantants and "collatreral" casualties. 

> Secondly democracy will remain. 

Democracy didn't survive in Germany after Hilter's ascension to power. You
can hardly guarantee that democracy would survice in _your_  Fourth Reich,
Mr. Kreiberg. Especially when the policies you favor would probably foment
armed rebellion. If not eventual military intervention by an outside
power. 

Denmark would never tolerate your idiocy, much less survive it.  

> It is not the style of democracies to create  bloodshed. 

It also is not the "style" of democracies to persecute their citizens en
masse with unjust and inhumane policies while callously and cruelly
violatatimg their civil and human rights. 

> Thirdly there have already been bad experience as you have pointed 
> out. It is a matter of learning from that and see to that history does not 
> repeat itself when the process of helping displaced persons to their right 
> places begins. 

Indeed. It is a matter of "learning" that Nazi fruitcakes like you are
(barely) tolerated -as long as you _remain_ harmless fruitcakes. Open your
eyes Mr Kreiberg- you have no place in civil society. You are a pariah and
your beliefs are reprehensible and will be spit upon for generations to
come until their evil memory fades away. 

> When ethnic homogeneity is accomplished in as many countries as possible a 
> much better world has emerged. 

Go for it Nazi scum. Let's see how far you get. 

> Ethnic homogeneity is the future. 

Like in Bosnia or Rawanda? How reassuring. 

> Multiracialism sucks.

That's just because you're a loser, Mr Kreiberg. A maladroit. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Aug 20 10:55:52 PDT 1996
Article: 58452 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ernst Zundel, UFO Man (Re: Sign up for the WORLD famous
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 14:52:19 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 30
Message-ID: 
References: <31F2BDE2.447C@ix.netcom.com> <4uib2v$fr1@molokini.conterra.com> <4unk21$ouq@infor <4uv1c6$gos@news.ios.com>  <321520F5.451B@lis.ab.ca>  <4v9aer$18j@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4va892$d0j@lendl.cc.emory.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi148.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4va892$d0j@lendl.cc.emory.edu>, libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu
(william c anderson) wrote:

> Matt  Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
> : On Sun, 18 Aug 1996 09:07:56 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com wrote:
> 
> : >Personally, I think the guy is a kook. And a dangerous one besides.
> : 
> :       According to Schindler's widow so is his List.  
> 
> Schindler's list is a kook?  I'm unclear on how an inanimate object
> would get to be a kook, Matt...

Well, the Troll has often been alluded to a tree stump- both share the
same general (real) IQ. This would imply that the Troll is inanimate (in
at least in respect to his IQ). I would also daresay that few people would
disagree that the Troll is indeed a kook. Ergo, he's an inanimate kook....


See, it _is_ possible. };-> 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Aug 20 10:55:53 PDT 1996
Article: 58454 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.infi.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!homer.alpha.net!news.ultranet.com!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!oleane!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ACHTUNG: "HOLOCAUST" LIES!
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 17:06:59 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 26
Message-ID: 
References: <4uudnn$cko@light.lightlink.com> <4v2i2u$416c@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net><4uudnn$cko@light.lightlink.com> <4v2i2u$416c@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4v2qbv$hkf@Networking.Stanford.EDU> <4vat0s$1ns2@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi148.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4vat0s$1ns2@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord
McFee) wrote:

[snip]

> What I really found so funny was that the post was so ludicrous, it was
> funny--to ME at least.  Why the guy, who was a Nazi in a previous life--an
> Obergruppenfuehrer no less--spells "Schutzstaffel" wrong.  There is no way he
> is the slightest bit serious.
> 
> I didn't even see it as a troll.  It was beyond "trollism" IMHO.  Just plain
> silly.
> 
> Is there a term for a post that is deliberately just plain goofy?

Giwerundean? Moranic? 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Aug 20 10:55:54 PDT 1996
Article: 58464 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!noos.hooked.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Sign up for the WORLD famous Zgrams
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 17:15:54 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 29
Message-ID: 
References: <31F2BDE2.447C@ix.netcom.com> <4uib2v$fr1@molokini.conterra.com> <4unk21$ouq@infor <4v99ic$18j@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi148.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article , dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
> 
> # To get to the iceberg, Wiesel, Wiesenthal, Golda Meyer            
> # despite her spelling and pronunciation along with most
> # of the founders and "fathers" of Israel.  And if they were
> # not "German" then just what were they?
> 
> Golda Meir was Russian, you dimwitted imbecile. Wiesel and
> Wiesenthal are not Israelis.
> 
> It never ceases to amaze me: you simply know nothing.
> No matter what topic is being discussed, you write
> the most stupid things possible. You are amazing.    

But, oh, so  predictable. 


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Aug 20 15:33:57 PDT 1996
Article: 58514 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'Holocaust Revisionism' Nonsense (Re: Noah & other bible myths)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 14:32:38 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 34
Message-ID: 
References: <321442ea.3094033@news.iquest.net> <840319957snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>
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In article <840319957snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>, A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk wrote:

> In article <321442ea.3094033@news.iquest.net> hopeless "Elijah" writes:
>  It is this facility which you often see
> > in pictures, and is not a reconstruction. There has been an attempt at
> > reconstruction to some of the camp barracks. As for the claim that the
> > curator has admitted to the crematoria having been built after the
> > war, that is just some sicko bullshit you made up out of thin air. 
> 
> I suggest that you get a copy of the Cole video. The claim is that a) this
> was a gas chamber; b) that it was converted by the Nazis; c) that it was
> "restored" by the Poles after the war. When Cole visited the camp he was given
> a spiel by the tour guide and told something entirely different by Piper.

A would also suggest that you, Al, read Dr. Piper's letter in response to
the deceitful and malicious denier propaganda video of Mr. Cole's. It can
be found at:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/c/cole.david/press/piper.letter.1093

> "He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself 
> the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy

Indeed. Once more, Al, it appears you are hoist by your own petard. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Aug 20 17:24:14 PDT 1996
Article: 58523 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Saugervermoegens [sic!] of Zyklon Carriers
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 16:39:16 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 90
Distribution: world
Message-ID: 
References: <4uoe8k$r2c@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4usbd0$buh@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <4uvnd9$i5i@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU> <4v24dd$5fn@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
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In article <4v24dd$5fn@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>,
abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels) wrote:

> rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:
> >>acid as prior warning which has a higher [? Dampftension]
> 
> >Could the word be surface tension?
> 
> No, that would be "Oberflaechenspannung".
> 
> >>>2) Silicagel forms a paste with prussic acid. How could it have been used?
> 
> >>If Mr. Ehrlich had translated the text correctly, he would have found out
> >>that exactly because of this quality it is dismissed as a suitable material.
> >>It has not been used, as the text precisely says, at least not in its
> >>conventional form.
> 
> >Actually, Mr. Ehrlich may have a point here.  It may be that other
> >sources have made an error here.  If Peters is correct, ERCO is not
> >silica gel _in its conventional form_.  That means that it is either
> >silica gel in a different form or not silica gel.
> 
> As a non-scientist, I have no understanding of the nature of Erco and 
> silicagel. But I can say that Peters does not imply any connection between 
> these two products. In the passage questioned above by Mr. Ehrlich, Peters 
> dismisses a couple of products as unsuitable, amongst them Silicagel in its 
> _conventional form_. He does not say that Erco derives from Silicagel.

It appears Mr. Abels's translation of Peters generally confirms
Ehrlich606's  and enummerates the three types of Zyklon carriers: "burnt"
kieselguhr [Diagriess], a "gypsum-substance delivered in cubes" [Erco],
and "wood-fibres in the form of discs." 

I find it interesting, however, that silica gel, in _"its customary
form"_, resulted in "a putty-like paste" when adsorbing prussic acid-
while kieselguhr did not. 

Please correct me if I am mistaken, but is not the "customary form" of
silica gel as follow: 

"An amphmorphous form a hydrated silica produced by the precipitation,
flocculation, or coagulation od a silica sol or the decomposition of some
silicates. When freshly prepared the silica apears to be in a gelatinous
state and, on standinmg, it will set and form a jelly. After being heated
it cannot easily be reconverted into a sol...." (_The Penguin Dictionary
of Chemistry_, p. 358.) 

And that of Kieselguhr [diatomite]:

"A hydrated silica, the remains of diatoms. The particles are hollow and
the material is used as a filler and an absorbent... Tripolite is a
compact form...." (Ibid. p.131.) 

"tripolite (_Min_) A variety of opaline silica which is formed from
siliceous frustules of diatoms. It looks like earthy chalk or clay, but is
harsh to the feel and scratches glass. When finelyu divided it is
sometimes called _earthy tripolite_. Also _diatomite, _infusorial earth_,
_Tripoli powder_." (_Larousse Dictionary of Science and Technology_, 
p.1133.) 

My first question to our chemists, then, is what _differences_ between
these two forms of _hydrated silica_, when prusic acid is adsorbed, would
cause silica gel to turn into a "a putty-like paste" while leaving
kieselguhr uneffected? 

Second, what exactly, is this "gypsum-substance?" It sounds like a mixture
of gypsum and something else. What might this something else (if there is
indeed something else) be? Whatever it is, it should, I would think, be a
good absorbant, yes? 

BTW, gypsum appears to be hygroscopic as well: 

"gypsum (_Min_) Crytalline mineral of hydrated calcium sulphate,
CaSO(4)2H(2)O.Occurs in bulk form as alabaster, in fibrous for as satin
spar, asn as clear, colourless, monoclinic crystals of selenite. Used in
making plaster of Paris, plaster and plasterboard, and is an important
constituent (~3.5% by weight) of Portland cement. It hydrates very rapidly
during the setting reaction, and helps control the initial setting
rate...." (Ibid. p.500.) 


posted/e-mailed to Mr. Green and Mr.Schultz.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Aug 20 17:24:15 PDT 1996
Article: 58529 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 23:31:53 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 25
Message-ID: 
References:  <4v8toq$hcr@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <3218D6DC.2060@rio.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi148.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <3218D6DC.2060@rio.com>, Chuck Ferree  wrote:

> Chuck Ferree writes:
> 
> I can believe what I'm reading here. Two grown men, neither one 
> experts on the subject matter, looking at old beat up aerial photos, 
> and trying to have a coherant conversation about what did or didn't 
> happen at Auschwitz. Hair-splitting by both sides, and bluffing too. 
> What a waste of potential.
> Besides it's boring as hell. 
> Chuck


Then don't read it Chuck. 


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Aug 20 17:24:15 PDT 1996
Article: 58535 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!news.ultranet.com!homer.alpha.net!daily-planet.execpc.com!newspump.sol.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Number Of Children Murdered (Re: Evil Holocaust Revisionism)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 15:55:26 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 42
Message-ID: 
References: <4v1gm2$ap7@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4v9ctt$18j@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>  <4vbla8$ksq@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi148.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article , dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
> 

snip]

> # (Do not forget your folks have already insisted that 
> # Leikenkellar means morgue not that it is a cellar, in 
> # english that is.)  

This from the boob who, in  article
<4m736d$9i1@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, claimed that Leichenkeller meant: 

"Keller = cellar.  Leichen = Leichen."

> It's "keller", you imbecile, and it means "cellar" in German,
> as you could have guessed were you not a stupid monkey.

Indeed. To taunt the Giwer-boob imbecile further: Leichen = corpse. Keller
= cellar. Ergo, Leichenkeller means, literally, "corpse cellar." That
translates to "morgue" in English. 

This, of course, did not preclude the Nazis and construction crew from
refering to L.Keller 1 and/or 2 as cellar 1 and/or 2. Or C1 and/or C2. 

But, of course, the Giwer-boob imbecile knew this (at one point) as he had
his face rubbed in it like a scolded puppy. Obviously, the Giwer-boob
imbecile's advancing senile dementia is taking its toll....

[snip]

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Aug 20 22:43:23 PDT 1996
Article: 58594 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!news.sol.net!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!howland.erols.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!uunet!in3.uu.net!noos.hooked.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Saugervermoegens [sic!] of Zyklon Carriers
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 15:36:03 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 36
Message-ID: 
References: <4usbd0$buh@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <4v24dd$5fn@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <4v7p75$7k3@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU> <4va6hh$iq4@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <4vd34d$n5g@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>
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In article <4vd34d$n5g@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>, rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU
(Richard J. Green) wrote:

> In article <4va6hh$iq4@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>,
> Nele Abels  wrote:
> 
> >No, I don't. The problems Mr. Ehrlich pointed out with the use of 
> >Silicagel can be found in the text, that is true. But his point is to 
> >establish a contradiction in the text by claiming that Silicagel has been 
> >used for Zyklon B nevertheless. This is not true, as it can be found in 
> >the correctly translated source. That Peters differentiates between 
> >Silicagel and Erco is of no consequence for Mr. Ehrlich's point, 
> >especially because Mr. Ehrlich himself wasn't aware of a potential 
> >connection between these two materials, as you will find out when 
> >re-reading his comments.
> 
> You may have missed some of the history of this discussion.  Most of us
> (Mr. Van Alstein, Dr. Keren, Mr. Mazal and me) have been under the
> impression that ERCO was silica gel (I believe Pressac asserts this.).
> Mr. Ehrlich has shown that we were probably wrong.

Yes, this look more likely. Given that Peters writes about a
"gypsum-substance" as being the Erco carrier for Zyklon B, it is possible
that Erco was something like, if not in fact was, Drierite. 

All of which, of course, is very interesting. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug 21 07:07:45 PDT 1996
Article: 58653 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news.thenet.net!news.supernet.net!news-out.microserve.net!news-in.microserve.net!mr.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi148.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Here We Go Again (Re: Evil Holocaust Revisionism)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 15:18:54 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 29
Message-ID: 
References:  <4vd55f$7st@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4vdanq$122@lendl.cc.emory.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi148.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4vdanq$122@lendl.cc.emory.edu>, libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu
(william c anderson) wrote:

> Kurt Stele (kurtstele@aol.com) wrote:
> : dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote to mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt 
> : Giwer):
> : 
> : >I'm sorry that you're a zero, a nothing, a miserable
> : >failure, and an imbecile. But it ain't my fault. So don't
> : >take it out on me, please.
> : 
> : you holohuggers sure dedicate a lot of time and bandwidth to someone who
> : supposedly is "a zero, a nothing, a miserable failure, and an imbecile."  
> : 
> : What does that say about you?
> 
> That we're easily amused?

That we like easy (and stupid) targets to ridicule? 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug 21 17:13:14 PDT 1996
Article: 58804 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!zdc-e!news-out.microserve.net!news-in.microserve.net!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi147.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Keren's fast one exposed
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 23:35:37 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 37
Message-ID: 
References: <4vd6bu$8ks@newsbf02.news.aol.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi147.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article , dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote to Nazi coward "kurt stele":

[snip]

> For the honor of your fuehrer, respond. Don't be a bloody
> coward. There's nothing more disgusting and revolting
> than a little nazi pig who's also a damned coward. Really,
> you make me vomit. I'm serious.

Actually, reading ol' wankermeister gives me the urge to take a dump on
his jackboots.... Petty, I know, but oh so satisfying! 

[snip]

> For a summary of the "revisionist" position, look at what
> Nazi propagandist and "revisionist", Kurt Stele, wrote:
> 
>  From:         kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele)
>  Message-Id:   <4ut4ht$p8i@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
> 
> # The Holocaust is a funny thing..
> # When you hear about it, you wish it never happened..
> # When you discover it's a hoax ya kind of wish it did!
> # Kurt Stele

Make that a _big_ dump.

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug 21 20:36:02 PDT 1996
Article: 58834 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!marine.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!winternet.com!mr.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi147.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "...or exterminate them..."
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 15:41:03 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 28
Distribution: world
Message-ID: 
References: <4usvg4$8id@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4vdmbd$eg@grivel.une.edu.au> <4vfhn6$blf@lendl.cc.emory.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi147.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4vfhn6$blf@lendl.cc.emory.edu>, libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu
(william c anderson) wrote:

> : Alles andere als Ehrlich wrote:
> 
> : Because I am a native English speaker. In English, *extermination*
> : is only heard with regard to the killing off of vermin in one's house or
> : backyard.
> : I have never heard the word in any other sense (except of course,
> : in translations of Himmler).  
> 
> "Exterminate the brutes!"
> 
> -Kurtz, in Joseph Conrad's "Heart of Darkness"


Obviously, Ehrlich606 isn't of fan of Conrad's....  };-> 


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug 21 20:36:03 PDT 1996
Article: 58839 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!marine.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!winternet.com!mr.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi147.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.democrats.d
Subject: Re: Steven Spielberg awarded $1M federal grant
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 15:45:09 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 35
Message-ID: 
References: <4v80ea$lb6@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4v8ctc$pn7@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <32179CDE.12C6@rio.com> <321a4c38.1412045@nntp.netcruiser> <4vdpvs$qo3@news.tamu.edu>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:58839 alt.politics.usa.republican:259563 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:359586 alt.politics.perot:53226 alt.politics.democrats.d:110874

In article <4vdpvs$qo3@news.tamu.edu>, frh@tamu.edu wrote:

> >>
> >>          "Sens. Arlen Specter (R-Penn) and Barbara Boxer
> >>> >             (D. Calif.) presented multimillionaire Steven
> >>> >             Spielberg with a $1 million federal grant to work
> >>> >             on a massive holocaust documentation project, the
> >>> 
> >>> >             Survivors of the Shoah Visual History Foundation."
> >>
> >>Worth every dime of it too. My money, your money, it's a worthwhile 
> >>use of taxpayers money. The computer manufacturers donate ten times 
> >>that much in free computers to schools every year. Quit bitching, it's 
> >>something which needs to be done, and Spielberg is putting up millions 
> >>of his own money too.
> 
> The computer manufacturers donate *their* computers, not computers
> paid for by taxpayers.  While the holocaust was, indeed, terribly
> wrong I cannot back government support of the documentary.

Ahem. Let's not forget that those computers that the computer
manufacturers donate are tax deductable. A rose is a rose... and a
government subsidy is a government subsidy....

Do you back government support of our educational system? 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Aug 22 06:45:29 PDT 1996
Article: 58852 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!news.zoomnet.net!newsfeed.one.net!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!howland.erols.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi147.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Saugervermoegens [sic!] of Zyklon Carriers
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 16:03:36 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 86
Distribution: world
Message-ID: 
References: <4usbd0$buh@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <4uvnd9$i5i@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU> <4v24dd$5fn@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>  <4vcr87$f0t@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4vcr87$f0t@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>,
abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels) wrote:

>mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>It appears Mr. Abels's translation of Peters generally confirms
>>Ehrlich606's [...]
>
>The problem is the little word "generally". 

Indeed. Which is why, for the lack of a better qualifier, I used
"generally." Perhaps I should _not_ have used that phrase, but instead
_specfically_ qualified what I was talking about. My err. My concern was,
at that point, with Ehrlich606's translation and _your_ double-checking of
it (my thanks for that) simply in regards to the three kinds of carriers
enummerated for Zyklon: diatomite, gypsum, and wood chips. That's it. At
that point I was not overly concerned about their properties, why they
were chose, etc. -just _what_ they were, as claimed by Peters.  

I make no pretensioons as to fully comprehending the nuances of the German
language (my German is _terrible_) nor any competancy in translating
German text to English.  

>This newsgroup is dealing with a historical subject and the texts discussed 
>here are used as historical evidence. That means, when they are translations, 
>they have to meet historical standards. 

Absolutely. 

>Therefore they have to be as accurate as possible. Mr. Ehrlich succeeds 
>in grasping the general gist of a text, that is right.

For _my_ initial purpose, that was all I needed. I did , however, wish
that Ehrlich606's translation be double-checked before I even accepted the
most cursory of interpretations....

>But he is well-known for his ability of discussing the possible meaning 
>of isolated words.

And he is also well-known for misconstruing them completely out of 
definition and context. 

>We know what people like him do with texts like the Wannsee-document or 
>the Himmler-speeches. So why should I be quiet when catching him inserting 
>words, leaving out words, or >using completely wrong words? 

You shouldn't. Sic 'em! ;-) 

>Just yesterday, I caught Beaulieu with a much more serious manipulation. 
>Those interested may look up my comments in the thread "RE: Wieder 
>mit dem", the 359 line post. 

I am completely unsuprised by this. Mr. Beaulieu has been a very naughty
denier lately. Why, just a day or two ago I caught him red-handed
parroting Faurisson's garbage about Bischof's letter to Topf regarding a
100-showerhead shower for one of the  Kremas (III?) as proof that the
L.Kellers were showers. Of course, Mr. Beaulieu (and Faurisson) forgot to
mention that Bischof's letter was in regards to the (unrealized) _future_,
when the Kremeas would no longer be needed for special aktions against the
Jews. Slight ommision there, IMHO. (Even more amusing is that once caught,
Mr. Beaulieu accused me of fabricating Pressac's text cited by Faurisson,
which when taken in context, shows Faurisson and Mr. Beaulieu to be
liars!)  

>We must not underestimate the possibilities one has when manipulating
translations, 
>especially since the majority of the Anglo-Saxon audience does not speak
any foreign. 
>languages. 

You, of course, are absolutely correct. 

>I will contiue being _very_ touchy when finding false translations.

And you have my sincere thanks for doing so!

Mark

posted/(already)e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Aug 22 09:19:30 PDT 1996
Article: 58899 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi147.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: gassing evidence bears [amused] interest
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 16:53:24 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 49
Message-ID: 
References: <4u3gqb$f9d@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4uheoq$gfa@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>  <4ujifm$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>  <4v061p$rqp@hil-news-svc-4.compuserve.com> <4v5063$iah@Vir.com> <4v97tu$18j@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <321A2058.2E84@gryn.org> <4vemab$jtm@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <321B8461.7A2@unb.ca>
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In article <321B8461.7A2@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison  wrote:

> Matt Giwer whined (as usual):
> 
> > >>
> > >>         Where did I get the idea of without lights?  Sorry but if
people are
> > >> in a state of biting off their fingers and each other's ears one does
> > >> not expect lightbulbs to last very long.  Windows are never mentioned
> > >> and never in any drawings.
> > 
> > >You can go into any construction supply store and buy a fixture which
> > >consists of a light-bulb socket, a glass cover, and a strong steel heavy
> > >wire outer layer - something like the wire in a baseball catcher's mask.
> 
> I pass several everytime I go underground, and several simply have the
> metal cage.  Rather simple devices, actually.  I think even Matt could
> understand their operation.

Don't bet on it....

[Giwer-boob drivel snipped]

> Now stay on topic.  Please explain why the people who brought you the
> Me-262, the Bismarck and the Volkswagon could not understand the concept
> of putting a protective cage around a light.

On the inventory list for Krema II it lists for Leichenkeller 1: "16 Lamp
o. Kug. u. Tel. Feuhtsicher" (16 lamps other than globes, waterproof). For
for  Leichenkeller 2: "10 Lamp o. Kug. u. Tel. Feuhtsicher" (10 lamps
other than globes, waterproof). (cf. _Technique_, pp. 429-430.)

In a sketch (Document 83) by David Ole`re, made in 1946, showing
Leichenkeller 2, the lights are shown to have a protective grid. A canvas
(Document 84) by Ole`re, depicting a homicidal gassing, also shows a light
having a protective grid. (cf. p.258.) 

Mark


posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Aug 22 18:01:00 PDT 1996
Article: 58961 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi147.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: There's no business like Shoah business
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 23:59:25 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 61
Message-ID: 
References: <4vd61l$8eg@newsbf02.news.aol.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi147.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article , dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

> kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele) writes:
> 
> # Furthermore, there were other gasses available, far more 
> # potent, which the nazis could have used had their intent 
> # been extermination of the jews by gassing.
> 
> Name one.
> 
> # Towards the end of the war, conditions deteriorated in Europe 
> # and the camps experienced outbreaks of typhus during the final 
> # months.
> 
> The death rate was often 10 percent a month in the
> "work camps" in 1942-3, long before the end of the war.
> 
> See letter from Oswald Pohl to Himmler, 30 Sep. 1943,
> about the mortality in some of the concentration camps (as
> opposed to death camps); it's in the "Trials Of War Criminals"
> (green) series, Vol. V, p. 379.
> 
> In July 1942, the death rate was 8.5 percent.
> In August 1942, the death rate was 10.6 percent.
> In September 1942, the death rate was 10.2 percent.
> 
> Again, this is 10 percent dying *every month*.
> 
> I refer again to 
> 
> http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/buchenwald/images
> 
> buchenwald04.jpg shows German civilians brought by the Allies
> to view the horrors of Buchenwald. 
> 
> buchenwald01.jpg, buchenwald02.jpg, buchenwald03.jpg show
> the inmates.
> 
> Enough said.

Actually, I'd also like to add that epidemics, disease, privation, etc.
helped cause the mortality rate at Auschwitz for the period of July 1942
to May 1943 to range at times from 19 to 25 percent per _month_. (cf.
_Anatomy_, p. 27.) In addition, during the construction of Birkenau,
10,000 Soviet POWs perished in a matter of a few months. This would have
translated to an annual mortality rate of 240 percent. (cf. Ibid. p.139.) 


All this, of course, happened from 1941 to 1943. Before the tide of the
war irrevocably turned against Germany. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Aug 23 06:27:33 PDT 1996
Article: 59050 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!visi.com!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi147.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: It is libel to call me a nazi.
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 15:22:53 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 44
Message-ID: 
References: <7aH3oOev1iBC065yn@login.dknet.dk>   <2AV4oOev1KOG065yn@login.dknet.dk> <4uvhqp$6kp@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> 
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article , olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole
Kreiberg) wrote:

> In article <4uvhqp$6kp@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>, Ken McVay OBC wrote:
> 
> >Goebbels would be so proud of Mr. Kreiberg.... the same Nazi
> >contempt for citizens, the law, the Jews, homosexuals,
> >Roma.... what a wonderful image... Denmark, and all 14 of its
> >citizens, having a party on Friday night, celebrating their
> >"freedom."
> >
> >-- 
>  If you lived within Danish jurisdiction I could easily sue you for libel 
> because you are calling me a nazi. I have never advocated dictatorship,
> military expansion etc. so I do not qualify as a nazi. Futhermore Hitler
> said several times that national socialism knows only Germany and is 
> not meant for export. Nazism is krautstuff. Are you unable to understand
> that?

Poor "misunderstood" little Ole. :::queue itty-bitty violins::::

Well, Mr. Kreiberg, I _don't_ live within Danish jurisdiction, but within
the jurisdiction of the United States of America. We have this wonderfult
little document called the Constitution, with these wonderful little
Amendments. Like the First Amendment.

The Nazi-like ideology and unabashed racism you espouse in your posts
brand you a Nazi. Simply pointing this out is hardly libel. 

So piss off, you miserable, whining little Nazi scumbag. 

(Ain't the Internet just great!) 

[Rascist Nazi-bullshit rationalizations snipped]

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Aug 23 11:38:24 PDT 1996
Article: 59083 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!news.math.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!spool.mu.edu!newshub.tc.umn.edu!mr.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!noos.hooked.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Life and Fall of Wlodowa: Sobibor
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 19:22:55 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 56
Message-ID: 
References: <4vc5rp$i7h@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4vfcss$6mi@newsbf02.news.aol.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi145.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article , dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

> kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele) writes:
> 
> # You yourself admitted German soldiers were at a scarcity.
> 
> Gassing large groups of people requires far less soldiers
> and ammunition than shooting them, untermench.

There were four _Einsatzgruppen_, each about the size of a battalion. This
meant that the total strength of the _Einsatzgruppen_ was about 3,000 men.
(cf. _Destruction_, pp.187,189.)

In comparison, the number of SS personnel serving in the _entire_
Auschwitz complex (i.e. Auschwitz I, II, III, and satellite camps) during
1940-45, was 3,000 men on average, peaking at 4,552 SS personnel on
January 15, 1945. (cf. _Anatomy_, p.274). Given that Ho"ss writes of the
"Guard Battalion" at Birkenau (cf. _Death Dealer_, pp. 210,217), it
probably is not too far of the mark to assume that that number of
personnel stationed at Birkenau was probably on the on the order of 1,000
men, as the complement of guards made up the largest contingent at the the
Nazi camps. This would mean the number of troops at Birkenau would be
comaprable to _Einsatzgruppe_ A, the largest of the _Einsatzgruppen_,
which had 990 men (_Destruction_, p.189.)  

Given all this when the numbers of victims murdered in the mobile killing
operations by the _Einsatzgruppen_ of 1,400,000 (Ibid. p.767) is compared
to the 1,130,000 killed at Auschwitz (_Anatomy_. p.62) we can see that the
SS/victim ratio for the _Einsatzgruppen_ is about 1:446 while that of
Birkenau is about 1:1,130. 

In other words, Birkenau was probably on the order of two or three times
as numerically "effective" per man in killing people as was the
_Einsatzgruppen_. When the fact that the valuables and personal
belongings, etc. of the victims who were _immediately_ killed on arrival
at Birkenau, and which yielded a _net profit_ to the Nazis of 200 RM ($91)
per victim (Ibid. p.262), is taken into account, it  simply drives home
the point that the Nazi policy of extermination was hardly a money loser. 

Unlike the pubescent wankermeister Stele, who is _definetely_ a loser. 

[snip]

Mark


posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Aug 23 11:38:25 PDT 1996
Article: 59091 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!news.dgsys.com!tahiti.netreach.net!news1.digex.net!ctd.comsat.com!coral.bucknell.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!news.inc.net!newspump.sol.net!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi146.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 14:30:07 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 34
Message-ID: 
References:  <4ut6el$q0r@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi146.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4ut6el$q0r@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
(Ehrlich606) wrote:

> In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
> (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
> 
> >> 
> >> Yes, but don't you understand that there is a yin/yang thing here?  I
> >> mean, this news group was set aside so that discussion of revisionist
> >> issues would be separated from other discourse.  Therefore, everyone
> who
> >> comes here knows what to expect....  
> >
> >Spoken like a true denier "veteran." (Sotto voce: Unlike when te "old"
> >Ehrlich606 first came to the group and whined about all the bad vibes
> >between deniers and conventionalists....) 
> >
> >
> When have I ever endorsed the tone of this group, other than just to get
> resigned to it?  The whole point of this post is that, as much as
> possible, I want to ignore this invective BS.  It's just a waste of time.

Too late. Your moral anomie in regards to Giwer's abject behavior has
already spoken volumes about what you do and don't want to ignore.

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Aug 23 15:11:09 PDT 1996
Article: 59157 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!noos.hooked.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Those Sensitive Nazis."
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 01:50:06 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 82
Message-ID: 
References: <321a4bef.1970818@news.inetport.com> <4vimic$e5l@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi145.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4vimic$e5l@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

> mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:
> 
> >yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
> 
> >>>   kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele) writes:
> >>
> >>>There was no need to transport the jews at cost to kill them
> >>>elsewhere if they could have been killed nearby.  
> >>
> >>On what basis do you state that the transportation "cost" the nazi
> 
> >>government.  As a matter of fact, the transportees were charged normal
> >>train fares which was taken from confiscated Jewish property.
> >>
> 
> >I told him this. He ignored this. He's a typical denier stooge. He's
> >here to post his hate. Show that he has no answers to our questions
> >and look foolish. 
> 
> Mike I've already addressed this.  

And you were shown to be sorely lacking in the evidence department. Try again.

> It is absurd to claim that nazis who were supposedly trying to exterminate 
> jews would pay for a needless camp/train transportation system when they
could 
> have simply executed them nearby.  

Uh, hello? Anybody home? Herr Wankermeister, you have been informed
several times now that the Nazis didn't pay one RM for transporting the
Jews to their deaths. You've had references to the works scholars, like
Hilberg's _Destruction_, handed to you so that you may confirm this for
yourself. Yet you ignore these efforts to drag your awareness of the
historical facts up from the gutter. Why? What on earth could you possibly
find so enthralling about being an illiterate bigot? 

> The nazis were fighting a 2-front war and men and money were at
> all-time premium. 

Indeed. Which is one more reason that would explain the resort to
extermination camps. They took less troops than the mobile killing
operations did. 

But you already knew that. You've been told enough. 

> Or even if they had wanted to "gas" jews instead of easily shooting them, 
> which itself would have been inexplicable...

What do you so "inexplicable," Herr Wankermeister? Concentrating the Jews
in ghettos and then shipping them off to the death camps to be killed was
simply more effient and took less manpower than killing them in situ. 

But you already knew that too. You've been told enough. 

> ...they could have set up gas chambers  nearby since according to the 
> holocausters any old barn will do for a  gas-chamber.  

And, Herr Wankermeister, your evidence for this is? The which gassing
aktions used just "any old barn?" Please, do speak up. 

> Aren't you paying attention?

Odd, I was just going to ask yiou that very same question. 

Well? Are you? Or, Herr Wankermeister, are you indeed nothing more the
"typical denier stooge"  who is "here to post his hate" and nothing
more?   

(Sotto voce: As if we didn't already know...) 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Aug 23 15:11:09 PDT 1996
Article: 59163 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!noos.hooked.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Which Jew bankers run the Fed. Res.?
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 12:10:45 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 123
Message-ID: 
References: <4vimg1$e4m@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4vjqc7$r7s@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi145.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4vjqc7$r7s@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

> libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:
> 
    Herr Wankermeister (kurtstele@aol.com) wrote:

[snip]

> >There were many other reasons--some of them given by the planners of 
> >the Holocaust themselves--for switching from the roving killing squads
> >to Extermination centers.  Among other things, huge massacres spread
> >out all over the countryside are hard to keep secret.  Then there's the
> >fact that the Nazis wanted to exploit the labor of some of the Jews
> >before they killed them.  Also, disposing of massive numbers of corpses
> >is much easier in a central location.  The list goes on.
> 
> yes the list goes on of the amenities the nazis afforded the jews in the
> camps, e.g., care packages, bakeries, etc.  Holocausters are faced with
> the completely contrary fact that literally -millions- of jews survived
> the purported "deathcamps." 

Herr Wankermeister, in your attempt to portray yourself as a dysfunctional
human being (not an easy job for Giwer's sister's cat, btw) you have yet
again mightily confused yourself.  There were basically six externimation
camps: Auschwitz, Belzec, Chelmno, Majdanek, Sobibor, and Treblinka. 

Deportations to the Auschwitz extermination camp totalled at least
1,300,000 people. Of these 1,300,000 deportees only 200,000 survived to be
liberated. That puts the death death toll for Auschwitz at about 1,100,000
victims, 90% of whom were Jewish (cf. _Anatomy_, p. 61-72). When Auschwitz
was liberated by the Russian on January 27, 1945 there were approximately
7,000 sick and exhaustyed prisoners remaining (cf. _Auchwitz Chronicles_,
p.805.) 

Deportations to the Belzec extermination camp were halted in December of
1942 as most of the Jews of the Generalgouvernement had been exterminated
in Aktion Reinhard. Belzac was then shut down and all traces of mass
murder- and the camp itself - were (unsuccessfully) obliterated. In all,
some 600,000 Jews were killed at Belzec. There were few survivors of
Belzec and apparantly only one survived (Rudolf Reder) to tell about what
happened there. (cf. _Enyclopedia of the Holocaust_ pp. 174-179.) 

Deportations to the Chelmo extermination camp were halted in 1943 as the
entire Jewish population of Wargenthau, with the exception of the Lodz
ghetto, had been exterminated. Operation at Chelmo were resumed in June
1944 for the liquidation of the Lodz ghetto. In September 1944 the
obliteration of all signs of the mass murder that took place at the camp
began. The camp was abandoned on January 17, 1945, as the Russians
approaced. In all, some 320,000 Jews were killed at Chelmo. (cf. Ibid.
pp.283-286.) 

Deportations to the Majdanek extermination camp totaled about 500,000
people. Of these 500,000 about 360,000 died: 144,000 were murdered in the
gas chambers or in mass shootings. The remaining 216,000 died from
starvation, disease, privation, and brutality and the hands of the Nazis.
The Majdanek extermination camp,due to the Russian advance, was (hastily
and incompletely) liquidated in July of 1944. (cf. Ibid. pp.937-940.) 

Deportations of Jews to the Sobibor extermination camp up to July 1942
initially came from Germany, Austria, Slovakia, and Thereseinstadt-
resultinmg in the mass murder of about 100,000 Jews. By the October 1943
an additional 150,000 Jews from the Generalgouvernement were murdered
there. On October 14, 1943, a prisoner revolt took place at Sobibor,
resulting in the deaths of a dozen or so SS and Ukranians guards and the
escape of about 300 prisoners. Nearly all the escape prisoners and _all_
of those who remained behind were killed and the camp liquidated.  At
war's end only about fifty Jews who had escaped during the prisoner revolt
survived. In all, some 250,000 Jews were killed at Sobibor (cf. Ibid.
pp.1373-1378.) 

Deportations of Jews to the Treblinka extermination camp from the
Generalgouvernement and elsewhere resulted in the extermination of about
870,000 victims. Hundreds of escape attempts from the trains carrying the
victims to the camp were made, as they were from the camp as well. Not
many were sucessful. And for each person who attemptted to escape the
Nazis executed ten who remained in the camp. Such measures often proved an
effective deterrent. Like at Sobibor, the prisoners at Trebklinka
rebelled. On August 2, 1943, a prisoner revolt and mass escape attempt
took place. During the revolt most of the camp was set to the torch and
went up in flames. Of the approximately 750 prisoners who tried to escape,
only seventy did and survived to be liberated. The the rest of the
prisoners at the camp, excepting a work commando for obliterating the
remains of the camp, were summarily executed by the Nazis. When Treblinak-
and the evidence of the mass murder that took place there -was erased, the
work commando too was then killed. (cf. Ibid. pp.1481-1488.) 


Adding up the genocidal tally, one can easily see (if one is not Giwer-s
sister's cat) the following:

Exterminatin Camp             aprox. death toll      aprox. no. survivors
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Auschwitz                         1,100,000                 200,000
Belzec                              600,000                 < 1,000
Chemlmo                             320,000                 < 1,000
Majdanek                            360,000                 140,000
Sobibor                             250,000                 < 1,000
Treblinka                           870,000                 < 1,000

                      Total...... 3,500,000               < 350,000


Hmmm. Herr Wankermeister, where are the your "literally -millions- of jews
[who] survived the purported 'deathcamps?'" I see no "millions" here. I
see _less_ than 350,000 survivors- less than 10% of those deported and
killed at the extermination camps. Do you, Herr Wankermeister, perhaps
also suffer from Moranic (tm) Math Syundrome as well and Giwerundean
amnesia? It might be a good idea for you to see your veterinarian. Have
him check for rabies, distemper, and worms while you're there....

[Herr Wankermeister's incoherent yowling snipped]

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Aug 23 15:11:10 PDT 1996
Article: 59173 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.cstone.net!news1.slip.net!su-news-feed4.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-feed2.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!noos.hooked.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ashholes was Re: "Ash Gets In Your Eyes" - Giwer's New Theme Song
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 13:59:02 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 18
Message-ID: 
References: <3217B7B1.6F38@vegas.infi.net> <4vahld$412@newsbf02.news.aol.com><3217B7B1.6F38@vegas.infi.net> <4vahld$412@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4vbp4b$ksq@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4vgmrj$11lk@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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In article <4vgmrj$11lk@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord
McFee) wrote:

[snip]

> Why do Giwer and Sele post under two different names?

Multiple personality disorder? 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Aug 23 17:14:27 PDT 1996
Article: 59196 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Life and Fall of Wlodowa: Sobibor
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 15:08:57 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 40
Message-ID: 
References: <4vipn8$fh3@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4vjmvm$qml@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi145.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4vjmvm$qml@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

[snip]

> I was using the worst-case scenarios figures.  


And where, Herr Wankermeister, did you _get_ these "worst-case scenarios
figures [sic]?" Hmmm? Care to share a cite or two with the rest of the
group? Hmm? 

> If extermination -had- been the nazis object, there would likely be more 
> gunners per person of course.

"Would likely," Herr Wankermeister? You mean you don't _know_? Tsk tsk. On
what  basis did you "likely" base this fantasy on? Just your bigotry, or
something else as well? Like a Ouji board, perhaps? 

> The machine gunning of peasants this way in Russia and Cambodia worked. 

Indeed. It works for the Einsatzgruppen as well even though it had adverse
side-effects on the killers. However,simply put, exterminating the Jewish
populations in the ghettos, etc. was more efficiently done by the
extermination camps, as the victims were already concentrated and located
near the rail system. Of course, the extermination camps were _also_
located near the rail system. In fact, the railroads came to (and into)
the camps. (Such "foresight" by the Nazis, yes?)

[The rest of Herr Wankermeister's drivel snipped]

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Aug 23 17:14:28 PDT 1996
Article: 59205 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!noos.hooked.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Those Sensitive Nazis."
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 01:27:34 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 39
Message-ID: 
References: <321a4bef.1970818@news.inetport.com> <4vimk1$e6k@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4vimk1$e6k@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

> mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:
> 
> >kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele) wrote:
> 
> >>As if those constituted a "fair hearing" considering that the Holohoax
> is
> >>constantly drummed into the heads of the public through movies, TV,
> news,
> >>and academia 
> 
> >Care to actually provide examples?
> 
> Mike Curtis wants proof that the media continually furthers the Holocaust
> Tale.  
> 
> I haven't the heart even to say "Shindler's List" for starters.

One movie. Whoopie. How many WWII movies did John Wayne star in? (For that
matter, how many _westerns_?) But don't let _me_ rain on your (Nazi)
parade, Herr WankerMeister! 

Go ahead, keep going. "Shindler's List" and... and... 

> what are you supposed to do with a guy like that?  

Quit beating (off) around the bush and answer him? What a concept. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Aug 23 17:14:28 PDT 1996
Article: 59214 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n2ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!uniserve!news.sol.net!news.inc.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!noos.hooked.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holohugger Tactic #1: "Label him a nazi."
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 15:17:06 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 42
Message-ID: 
References: <4vivn4$26u@news.enter.net> <4vjqhe$r87@newsbf02.news.aol.com> 
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4vjqhe$r87@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

> gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:
> 
> >Poor Kurt.  Still can't read.  That's "...call 'em a Nazi".  See, unlike
> you losers, we can spell.
> 
> aw Gord's resorting to making fun of spelling. I didn't know he was that
> hard up in search of a rebuttal. 

That's "Aw, Gord's..."  Sentances usually start with capitalized words.
Also please note the comma between "Aw" and "Gord's." 

> First of all, since the phrase was in reference to myself, and not a group
> of others, the abbreviation of the singular applies and is not that of the
> plural "them" ('em) but of the singular "him" ('im) -- that being myself,
> only

:::sigh::: I won't comment on the grammatical butchering here except to
say that sentances usually end with a period.... 

> tsk, tsk.

What a amusing imbecile you are, Herr Wankermeister! Trying to (ineptly)
rationalize the paucity of your grammatical skills by your post hoc
revision of your sentance to "really" :::snicker::: mean "him" instead of
"them?" Are you perhaps, Herr Wankermeister, now taking up the Moranic
(tm) habit of speaking about yourself in the third-person? 

Your about as funny as they come, Herr Wankermeister. And as stupid. 


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Aug 23 19:19:56 PDT 1996
Article: 59234 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!sdd.hp.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holohugger Tactic #1: "Label him a nazi."
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 17:09:23 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 42
Message-ID: 
References: <4vivn4$26u@news.enter.net> <4vjqhe$r87@newsbf02.news.aol.com>  
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi145.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4vjqhe$r87@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

> gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:
> 
> >Poor Kurt.  Still can't read.  That's "...call 'em a Nazi".  See, unlike
> you losers, we can spell.
> 
> aw Gord's resorting to making fun of spelling. I didn't know he was that
> hard up in search of a rebuttal. 

That's "Aw, Gord's..."  Sentances usually start with capitalized words.
Also please note the comma between "Aw" and "Gord's." 

> First of all, since the phrase was in reference to myself, and not a group
> of others, the abbreviation of the singular applies and is not that of the
> plural "them" ('em) but of the singular "him" ('im) -- that being myself,
> only

:::sigh::: I won't comment on the grammatical butchering here except to
say that sentances usually end with a period.... 

> tsk, tsk.

What an amusing imbecile you are, Herr Wankermeister! Trying to (ineptly)
rationalize the paucity of your grammatical skills by your post hoc
revision of your sentance to "really" :::snicker::: mean "him" instead of
"them?" Are you perhaps, Herr Wankermeister, now taking up the Moranic(tm) 
habit of speaking about yourself in the third-person? 

Your about as funny as they come, Herr Wankermeister. And as stupid. 


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Aug 24 08:19:00 PDT 1996
Article: 59354 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: gassing evidence bears interest
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 17:07:38 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 131
Message-ID: 
References: <4u3gqb$f9d@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4uheoq$gfa@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>  <4ujifm$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>  <4v061p$rqp@hil-news-svc-4.compuserve.com> <4v5063$iah@Vir.com>  <4vd8e1$7gv@hil-news-svc-4.compuserve.com> <4vivsi$obn@Vir.com>
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In article <4vivsi$obn@Vir.com>, Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:

> 100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:
> >
> > mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
> > 
> > >In article <4v5063$iah@Vir.com>, Jean-Francois Beaulieu
 wrote:
> > 
> > >> 100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> 
> > >> > Some questions: what could be the use of a sealed door and especially
> > >> > of a judas hole in the door of a morgue ? and why did the Germans
> > >> > study (and ever command a heating system) for these morgues ?
> > >> > 
> > >> 
> > >>  Faurisson's opinion is that it was frequent to protect buildings
> > >>  from an evetual bombardment with sealed doors. 
> > 
> > >Interesting, then, that _only_ the entrances to the delousing and
> > >homicidal gas chambers had such doors while the rest of the entrnaces to
> > >buildings in the camp did not, yes? Mr. Faurisson's "opinion" on this is
> > >absurd. 
> > 
> > It's indeed interesting, but what was the use of the judas hole ? to
> > see if the planes were gone ?
> > 
> 
>  Again, the only explanation I have on that is from the same review,
>  page 103: here Faurisson refer to page 456 of A.T.O. where Pressac
>  show is 34 criminal proof, another gas tight door with a juda whole
>  and the door is literally mention in German as a 'gas chamber door'

[snip]

Mr. Beaulieu, if this is your "only explination" I suggest that you might
consider re-thinking your position. "34 criminal proof [sic]" is NOT about
a "another gas tight door with a juda [sic] whole" but about the FITTINGS
for such a gas-tight door:

"34. Die Beschla"ge zu 1 Tu"r mit Rahmen, luftdicht mit Spion fu"r
Gaskammer/ The fitting for 1 door with frame, air tight with peephoile for
gas chamber..." 

The translation of this order reads:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

28/5/43 No. 459. Disinfestaion Chamber Auschwitz concentration camp [i.e.
main camp, NOT Birkenau]

Subject:
1. Fittings for one door and frame, air-tight with peephole for gas chamber.
2. Lath door. Capo Ku"hne knows about this.
Administration V 4 Order No 158/2 and 2a of 25th January 1943.
Operative: Mirek. Competed: 10/6/43.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

And what is Pressac's comment in regards to this? 

"...The order has nothing to do with the Birkenau Krematorien, but was
destined for one of the disinfestation gas chambers of the main camp,
probably the one in Block 1.

"The text of this order was used by R. Faurisson in his little work
<> [page 80, Second (enlarged) Edition,
La Vielle Taupe, 1982] in his argument aimed at demonstrating that the
<>.

"This document is not part of the incriminating evidence but is presented
simply to show the care that must be taken in using the origional
documents. (_Technique_, p.456.) 

What this shows, Mr. Beaulieu, is that Mr. Faurisson was busy constructing
a strawman to knock down, as are you, instead having the integrity to
pursue the truth. 

This, of course, brings up the issue of what _exactly_ is the difference
between such a gas-tight door with peephole for a disinfestation gas
chamber and a gas-tight door with a poeephole for a homicidal gas-chamber?


Here, of course, is where it pays to delve into the details regarding the
gas chambers in Pressac's _Techinque_:

Referenceinng Photos 14 and 15 (Ibid. p.456) of the gas-tight door of the
Kanada I delousing gas chamber, it can be easily seen that it too has a
peephole. This door, in all fuctional respects, is identical to the ones
installed in the homicidal gas chambers of the Birkenau Krematorien.
Documents 11, 12, and 13 (Ibid. p.486) show photos of a gas-tight door
with peephole found in the Auschwitz Bauhof. It is identical to the
gas-tight door of the Kanada I delousing gas chamber in all but _one_
respect: There is a hemisperical wire grid on the _gas-chamber side_ of
the door protecting the peephole.  

This, of course, fits perfectly with the description of the gas-tight door
used in Krema II, as given by Henryk Tauber:

"...It was a wooden door, made of two layers of short pieces of wood
arranged like parquet. Between these layers there was a single sheet of
material sealing the edges of the door [3] and the rabbets of the frame
were also fitted with sealing strips of felt. At about head height for an
averge man this door had a round glass peephole [see Document 11]. On the
other side of the door, i.e. on the gas chamber side, this opening was
protected by a hemisperical grid [see Documents 12 and 13]. This grid was
fitted because the people in the gas chamber, feeling they were going to
die, used to break the glass of the peephole. But the grid still did not
provide sufficent protection and similar incidents recurred. The opening
was blocked with a piece of metal or wood...." (Ibid. p.483.) 

>  However, I don't find really extraordinnary the fact that a door,
>  wether it is for an appartment, a house, a morturaty or a delousing
>  facility as a juda hole or a window. Some doors have it, some other not.

With a hemisperical grid protecting the peephole on the _inside_ because
the people _inside_ kept breaking the glass? Mr. Beaulieu, you are
stretching credulity beyond the breaking point here with your failed
defense of Faurisson's (and your) asburd rationlizations.

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Aug 24 11:52:21 PDT 1996
Article: 135358 of control
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel 
Control: cancel 
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 15:16:26 -0800
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cancel 


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Aug 24 11:52:23 PDT 1996
Article: 135363 of control
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel 
Control: cancel 
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 02:42:38 -0800
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From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Aug 24 11:52:24 PDT 1996
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From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Aug 24 11:52:26 PDT 1996
Article: 135368 of control
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From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Aug 24 12:30:26 PDT 1996
Article: 59475 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: I am still waiting
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 16:40:50 -0800
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References: <4v9ejf$18j@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4vagfr$q4e@access5.digex.net> <4vbslc$ksq@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4vco8b$bqv@lal.interserv.com> <321CE7FE.5693@unb.ca>
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In article <321CE7FE.5693@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison  wrote:

> Ken Lewis wrote:
> > 
> > In article <4vbslc$ksq@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
mgiwer@ix.netcom.com says...
> > 
> > >        BTW:  I will be lodging a formal complaint in BC on conspiracy to
> > >violate copyright and violation fo copyright before the end of the
> > >month.
> > 
> > Don't forget Deja News.
> 
> To bad there's no such thing as conspiracy to violate copywrite.

More importantly, in regards to the Giwer-boog, is there such a thing as
felonious stupidity and intent to incapacitate from laughter? 

After readin the Giwer-boob's drivel, I was assualted by mirth and was
found rolling helplessly on the floor. };-> 

Should I sue, you think?  Is it tortable? Or am I mis-ingering this? };->  

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Aug 24 13:30:02 PDT 1996
Article: 59530 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Life and Fall of Wlodowa: Sobibor
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 11:50:16 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 189
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In article <4vipn8$fh3@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

> dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
> 
> >kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele) writes:
> 
> ># Mass shooting takes -more- soldiers than gassing? 
> 
> >Yes. One person, or two, each with two 1 Kg cans of Zyklon,
> >can kill 2,000 people in 15 minutes or so. 
> 
> yes but you're trying to say they were using this puny little rooms which
> show up on maps as being used for an entirely different purpose.  

Um, what "puny little rooms? What "maps?" What "entirely different purpose?" 

Do please enlighten us as to the specifics. You DO have specifics, right,
Her Wankermeister? 

> If they -were- going to gas them then there was no need to transport them 
> hundreds of miles.  

And how much did it cost per person to transport the Jews "hundreds of
miles" to the extermintion camps? How would this compare, for instance, in
transporting- hundreds of miles -the neccessary supplies required to keep
the Einsatzgruppen operating in the field? (How much did these supplies
cost?) Especially when the victims payed their own train fair and the SS
paid to supply the Einsatzgruppen? 

> A gas chamber could've been built nearby since any old barn can
> serve as a gas chamber according to the Holocaust Tale.  

Don't forget the krematorien and incineration pits, Herr Wankermeister.
How much  would many little kremas costs as compared to a few large ones
like at Auschwitz? Ever hear about the concept of "economy of scale?" 

> If they -were- going to gas then there would have built gas chambers -for- 
> that purpose... 

But the Nazis did, Herr Wankermeister. Kremas IV and V, for example, were
purpose built homicidal installations as comapred to Kremas II and III
which were "merely" converted during construction into massive homicidal
gassing installations. 

> ...not these goofy gas chambers that "doubled" as shower rooms 

And which homicidal gas chambers "doubled" as shower roomes, Herr
Wankermeister? Why none, of course.

>...and were unknown as such to all nazis save to a few tortured and coerced 
> witnesses like Hoes who had his balls smashed in.  How absurd.  

Projecting again, Herr Wankermeister? You really should take better care
of your family jewels....

> And yet as "efficient" as these gas chambers purportedly were, look at how
> millions of jewish "deathcamp survivors" there are.

None, of course. There were no "millions of jewish 'deathcamp survivors,'
Her Wankermeister. In truth there were less than 350,000 extermination
camp survivors for all six of the Nazi extermination camps. Almost all of
whom were survivors of Auschwitz, which was also was a labor camp
(Auschwitz I and III and their satillite camps) in addition to being an
extermination camp (Auschwitz II-Birkenau), and Madjanek. 

> I guarantee you won't find too many survivor from Soviet or Cambodian 
> extermination efforts, because those were -real- extermination efforts, as 
> opposed to the cockamaimee bull in the Holocaust Tale.  Obviously these 
> weren't gas chambers. 

The combined survival rate at all six extermination camps was less than
10%, Herr Wankermeister. This was due to Auschwitz and Madjanek (see
above). At Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor, and Treblinka (the Reinhard camps)
the survival rate was effectively zero. 

What was the survival rate of the Soviet and Cambodian "extermination
efforts," Herr Wankermeister? Do please be specific. You DO have
specifics, right, Herr Wankermeister? 

> >Very cheap. Very simple. Saves a lot of ammunition, which
> >is something you want to save during a war. 
> 
> Not when you figure in the cost of transportation, feeding prisoners (who
> supposedly are just going to be gassed?) and camp upkeep and maintenance;
> these camps had all sort of workshops and amenities also. 

And exactly what was the _cost_ of keeping prisoners at, for instance, the
Auschwitz complex, Herr Wankermeister? Why, it didn't _cost_ the Nazis one
RM! The Nazis turned a _profit_ from their victims. A coinsiderable profit
too, I might add. For the prisoners who _weren't_ exterminated on arrival
the average _profit_ per prisoner was 1,631 $M ($745). For the victims who
_were_ killed on arrival the _profit_ it was a bit less: 200 RM ($91) per
victim. (_Anatomy_, p.262.)

Now, Herr Wankermeister, just how much _profit_ did the Nazis make
supplying the _Einsatzgruppen_ , paying the troops, etc. during the mobile
killimg operations? Do please be specific. You DO have specifics, right,
Herr Wankermeister?    . 

> ...Bullets are cheap.  

And Zyklon B was even cheaper, Herr Wankermeister. As I 've demonstrated
to you before. (Still not paying attention, I see.) 

> ...It just requires a few men too. 

The Einsatzgruppen totaled about 3,000 SS troops, Herr Wankermeister, and
killed about 1.4 million victims. Auschwitz II-Birkenau, in comaprison,
killed about 1.13 milion victims with very likely around 1,000 troops.
Treblinka over 850,000 with, evidently just a few hundred SS troops. 

Sure looks the extermination camps killed more victims per SS trooper than
the Einsatzgruppen did in the field, Herr Wankermeister.  

> And no goofy transportation and disguised showerheads, and labor camps with 
> bakeries "disguised" as deathcamps. 

Just the same "goofy transportation" (not to mention "goofier" horse-drawn
wagons at the front!) to supply the troops and gassing vans "disguised" as
trucks. And a lot of ditches full of civilians who were gassed and machine
gunned to death by drunken and emotionally dysfunctional SS troopers. 

Are you envious of those drunken and emotionally dysfunctional SS
troopers, Herr Wankermeister? You sure sound like it. Must be because they
were old enough to drink. 

> All that makes no sense Keren, despite how lucrative as the Lie has proven....

Whistling in the dark again, Herr Wankermeister? Sure sounds like it. 

> First you argued that the nazis had the needless gas chambers/train
> transportation scheme because the nazis were goofy, now you're arguing
> they had it because they were logical? 

No, Herr Wankermeister, _you_ are the one who baselessly insists that "gas
chambers/train transportation scheme" was "goofey." Dr. Keren (and others)
have simply pointed out that such a system was more logistically
_efficent_ in exterminating the Jews who were concentrated in the ghettos.
It literally _cost_ the Nazis _nothing_ to transport the Jews from the
ghettos and transit camps to the extermination camps. 
 
> >People can't start running away, as they are locked inside
> >the chamber. That's another advantage.
> 
> you can outrun bullets?  Gee all of those -millions- of Russians and
> Cambodians murdered in all the -real- extermination campaigns couldn't
> manage to do so.  Bullets worked just fine

And Zyklon B (and CO), as used in the extermaination camps, worked even better. 

> >You don't have to walk around afterwards and shoot those
> >who were only wounded, or missed, by the initial firing 
> >(as was done). That's another advantage.
> 
> hardly a compelling consideration considering the convenience of a machine
> gun nearby as opposed to the substantial and absurd trouble and manpower
> involved in carting them, tagging them, feeding them, housing them,
> maintaining them, guarding them -- all done by an army supposedly trying
> to exterminate them?

Herr Wankermeister, are you suggesting that the Einsatzgruppen, for
example, _didn't_ have to round up their victims and herd them to their
places of execution? And murder them and dispose of them afterwards? All
that took time and manpower, Herr Wankermeister. 

In comparison, at the extermination camps, most of the "dirty work" -the
"carting", "tagging", "feeding" (if you can call starvation rations being
fed), and disposal of the corpses, etc. was done by the prisoners
themselves. Mostly the SS, a few hundred armed guards per camp, simply
guarded them and a few dozen others generally exterminated them. 

[snip]

Please, Herr Wankermeister, if you are going to insist on discussing such
things, perhaps yiou could educate yourself on the topic a bit first?
Perhaps then, though I doubt it, you would sound like such a pompus ass
all the time? 


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Aug 24 13:30:03 PDT 1996
Article: 59536 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!spool.mu.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hans Frank
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 11:57:10 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 29
Message-ID: 
References: <321dfe7b.12843778@news.spry.com> <4vmu2r$qtc@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi145.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4vmu2r$qtc@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

[snip]

> you obviously are lacking on this occasion with relevant knowledge about
> the warcrime trials

Herr Wankermeister, you're being evasive here. Wouldn't it be a more
effective demonstration of your "knowledge" regarding this to simply
enumerate all the cases of "torture" inflicted on those accused and tried
for war crimes, as you claim, and how it effected their testimony and/or
trials?

Or could it be, perhaps, that YOU haven't the slightest clue, Herr
Wankermeister, of what you are talking about, but are simply parrotting
someone else's denier propaganda? 

One wonders, Herr Wankermeister. Time for you to put up or shut up.... 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Aug 24 13:30:04 PDT 1996
Article: 59537 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Here We Go Again (Re: Evil Holocaust Revisionism)
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 12:07:56 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 28
Message-ID: 
References: <4vegj8$jtm@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4vgckd$iht@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <321dc573.69589632@news.zilker.net>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <321dc573.69589632@news.zilker.net>, mike@aimetering.com (Mike
Curtis) wrote:

> kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele) wrote:

[snip]

> >No army in -history- has ever behaved as illogical, goofy, and stupid as
> >the Purported Germans of the Holohoax legend.
> >
> 
> Want a bet? Start with the United States Army in the Civil War or any
> of the Indian Wars. I'm we can find prime examples for you.
> 
> I can think of peace time stupidity also.

Indeed. Try the Battle of Fredericksburg (December 13, 1862). A real
debacle on Burnside's behalf. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Aug 24 13:30:05 PDT 1996
Article: 59544 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n2ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!noos.hooked.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Geese" and more Holocaust Bullshit
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 12:12:10 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 46
Message-ID: 
References: <4vmuns$r5n@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4vmuns$r5n@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

> From "Sobibor!"
> 
> >After they had passed these three barracks they stood naked and ashamed,
> >surrounded by armed Ukrainian guards. Then they were divided into long
> >rows and were made to run by whipping them mercilessly. Chasty women
> >who covered their breasts with their hands were pulled out of the row and
> >their breast were cut off. Children were snatched from the arms of their
> >mothers and thrown on the earth and kicked to death with nailed boots.
> 
> yeah sure, tell me some more baloney

Matt Giwer has an IQ of 163.

> >The way to the "Sanitary Center" was stained with blood and squashed
> brains of >children.
> 
> I'll believe it if you say so

He just said so. 

> >The death camps worked at full capacity day and night without any
> >interruption. When the hideous screaming of the suffocating was heard
> >from the "Sanitary Center", the Germans let loose a herd of geese they
> >had especially bread for this purpose. The noise that the geese started
> >deafened the voices of the suffocating in the gas chambers.
> 
> Geese.

Yep, pretty gruesomes. 
  
> is the Holocaust bullshit or what?

Are you retarded or what? 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Aug 24 14:44:08 PDT 1996
Article: 59547 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n2ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!noos.hooked.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Life and Fall of Wlodowa: Sobibor
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 12:29:29 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 26
Message-ID: 
References:  <4vmuo2$r5q@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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In article <4vmuo2$r5q@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

[snp]

> Mark get help from Mike or Chuck.  You still didn't get the transportation
> point

Herr Wankermeister, I get the "point" loud and clear: you have absolutely
no clue as to what you are babbling about. In addition to blithely
parrotting your denier rubbish, you evade supporting your imbecilic
opinions with anything resembling actual historical evidence. 

Ergo, Herr Wankermeister, you are simply a anti-Semitic Nazi apologist
trying to blow smoke up people's butts. Given this, Herr Wankermeister, I
strongly suggest you keep your slimey lips to yourself -and off my anus! 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Aug 24 14:44:09 PDT 1996
Article: 59548 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: DvdThomas: The HUMANE Nazi (Re:   Wieder mit dem)
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 20:25:45 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 30
Message-ID: 
References:  <4vi7f1$8qh@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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In article <4vi7f1$8qh@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, dvdthomas@aol.com
(DvdThomas) wrote:

> Dan Keren wrote:
> 
> >I'm giving you a chance to prove you're not a lying Nazi 
> >bastard. Go for it, coward.
> 
> I will not respond to this kind of abusive trash posted by Mr. Keren or
> anyone else.

Uh huh. 

How about: "You are being given the chance, DvdThomas to prove your
assertions and that you do not simply post fabrications on disengenous
denier propaganda. Please, do avail yourself to this opporunity to defend
your claims in free and open debate about the Holocaust."

Is that cordial enough for you, DvdThomas? Or do you require an engraved
invitation? 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Aug 24 14:44:10 PDT 1996
Article: 59552 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n2ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Himmler's Posen Speech Again
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 12:41:52 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 29
Message-ID: 
References: <4vjuqk$73p@juliana.sprynet.com> <4vleu5$jum@news.enter.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi145.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4vleu5$jum@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

> >   rblackmore@juno.com writes:
> >  The reference Himmler made re-obviate to my mind suggests that he was 
> referring to those who resisted the Nazis by force of arms.
> >  
> >>>>
> 
> 
>         "re-obviate to my mind"?
> 
>         Before you start interpreting something written in German, why don't 
> you try to learn your own language.


Hmmm. Maybe Herr Blackie meant "re-opiated my mind?" Or "re-oblitrated my
mind?" 

Either one would Herr Blackie's difficulties with the English language....

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Aug 24 15:57:12 PDT 1996
Article: 59590 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!noos.hooked.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Life and Fall of Wlodowa: Sobibor
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 14:57:55 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 31
Message-ID: 
References: <321CD087.61F2@rio.com> <4vjouv$r23@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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In article <4vjouv$r23@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

> huck Ferree  wrote:
> 
> >Mark Van Alstine wrote:
> 
> >Good shot, you guys. kurt won't understand any of this but it's so 
> >vivid to anyone with a little gray matter. 
> 
> >Three "attaboys" to you both.
> >Chuck Ferree
> 
> Chuck felt the need to give Mark and Keren moral support.

Always appreciated, Herr Wankermeister. It helps takes that slimey feeling
away after reading your drivel.  

> That usually happens right after the Holohoax just took one on the nose.

Ah, fantasizing again, eh, Herr Wankermeister? 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Aug 24 17:00:07 PDT 1996
Article: 59598 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "I'm _not_ a Nazi!
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 15:39:02 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 147
Message-ID: 
References:   
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi145.rbi.com

In article , olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole
Kreiberg) wrote:

> In article , Mark Van Alstine wrote:
> >In article , olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole
> >Kreiberg) wrote:
> >
> >> Secondly democracy will remain. 
> >
> >Democracy didn't survive in Germany after Hilter's ascension to power. You
> >can hardly guarantee that democracy would survice in _your_  Fourth Reich,
> >Mr. Kreiberg. Especially when the policies you favor would probably foment
> >armed rebellion. 
> 
> I will never try to implement those policies before I have a majority
> of the population behind me.

Don't hold your breathe, Mr. Kreiberg. (On second thought...) 

> >If not eventual military intervention by an outside
> >power. 
> 
> I count that similiar movements for the creation of ethnic homogeity will 
> arise in other European countries. I would of course hesitate in 
> implementing it if it only was possible in Denmark.

Such spineless prevarication! "I would of course hesitate in implementing it..."

ROTFL! You are a joke, Mr. Kreiberg. A bad joke, but a joke nonetheless. 

> >Denmark would never tolerate your idiocy, much less survive it.  
> 
> Opinion polls in Denmark show that 72 per cent of population are against
> the multiethnic society. Opinion polls made by the European Union show
> that Denmark is that country where the largest percentage of the population
> is against the presence of immigrants and "refugees" from the third
> world.

Amazing then that these very same people let them in isn't it? Ah, the
appeal of cheap labor wears thin when those "'refugees' from the third
world" get to stand in front of you in the checkout line, eh, Mr.
Kreiberg? 

> >> It is not the style of democracies to create  bloodshed. 
> >
> >It also is not the "style" of democracies to persecute their citizens en
> >masse with unjust and inhumane policies while callously and cruelly
> >violatatimg their civil and human rights. 
> 
> What is so inhumane about asking e.g. a Turk to live in Turkey. There 
> already live millions of Turks in Turkey. Is that inhumane too?

After your government (and the Germany's) invite these "guest laborers"
into the country to take advantage of them as cheap labor? Why such sour
grapes, Mr. Kreiberg? Tired of screwing over those "'refugees' from the
third world" after _offering_ them a chance of a better life and _asking_
them to come on over and work their fingers to the bone doing all the
dirty jobs "beneath" you "Aryans?" 

My, my, how two-faced. 
 
> >> Thirdly there have already been bad experience as you have pointed 
> >> out. It is a matter of learning from that and see to that history does not 
> >> repeat itself when the process of helping displaced persons to their right 
> >> places begins. 
> >
> >Indeed. It is a matter of "learning" that Nazi fruitcakes like you are
> >(barely) tolerated -as long as you _remain_ harmless fruitcakes. Open your
> >eyes Mr Kreiberg- you have no place in civil society. You are a pariah and
> >your beliefs are reprehensible and will be spit upon for generations to
> >come until their evil memory fades away. 
> 
>  It may be reprehensible to you, but you are not a part of the majority.

Actually, Mr. Kreiberg, I am. The majority _I_ belong to, as compared to
the one of _your_ Nazi fantasies, doesn't believe in disenfranchisement,
denial of civil and human rights, concentration camps etc.... 

You do. Nazi scum. 

> If there are something in a democracy like the Danish you do not like
> you reject it with the ballot paper. The Danish naziparty that always has
> been a legal party has never scored more than 2 per cent of the ballot and
> the communist no more than 10 per cent. This is the way you do it in a 
> democracy. If people find my message reprehensible they will certainly
> show that by the ballot paper. And without a majority in the parliament
> I would not be able to implement my plan..

Umm, Mr. Kreiberg, don't you, er, find something _odd_ with this picture? Like:

"The Danish naziparty that always has been a legal party has never scored
more than 2 per cent of the ballot..." 

...And you don't think this, er, says something about how reprehensible
the Danish people find "your" message? 

Wow. :::queue theme from "Twighlight Zone":::

> >> When ethnic homogeneity is accomplished in as many countries as possible a 
> >> much better world has emerged. 
> >
> >Go for it Nazi scum. Let's see how far you get. 
> >
> >> Ethnic homogeneity is the future. 
> >
> >Like in Bosnia or Rawanda? How reassuring. 
> 
> Measures will of course be taken to avoid blodshet and chaos. We have of
> course learned from failures elsewhere.

No, "we" haven't. Witness the Balkans: a part _Europe_ culturally,
historically, and geographically- yet they repeat the very same "lessons"
of the Nazis.

It is equally as obvious, Mr. Kreiberg, that _you_ certainly haven't
"learned from failures elsewhere" when you believe in disenfranchisement,
denial of civil and human rights, concenntration camps, etc. and are
willing to implement policies that would cause such under the color of law
and using the powers of the State to carry them out. 

No, Mr, Kreiberg, you've learned _nothing_. You're simply a broken Nazi record. 

> >> Multiracialism sucks.
> >
> >That's just because you're a loser, Mr Kreiberg. A maladroit. 
> >
>  Am I a looser, because I do not believe in multirecialism? Please try to 
> elaborate.

Your are a loser and a piece of Nazi scum, Mr. Kreiberg, because you are a
social and ideological pariah who preaches re-packaged Nazi ideology that
has been repudiated by Western Civilization. You have no meanignful base
of political support for your Nazi policies and never will. You, in short,
are tilting at Naz windmills and are too deluded to realizi it.

Ergo, you _are_ a loser. In every way. 


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Aug 24 18:44:28 PDT 1996
Article: 59625 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n2ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!daily-planet.execpc.com!newspump.sol.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!metro.atlanta.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!noos.hooked.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Which Jew bankers run the Fed. Res.?
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 09:17:41 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 24
Message-ID: 
References: <4vgi5h$l07@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4vimg1$e4m@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4vj6v6$1rj@lendl.cc.emory.edu>
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In article <4vj6v6$1rj@lendl.cc.emory.edu>, libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu
(william c anderson) wrote:

[snip]

> This is really very simple stuff,  Mr. Stele.  Do you ordinarily have
> these cognitive problems, or is it just since THE JOOS started beaming
> bad thoughts into your head?

Perhaps Herr Wankermeister should order one of those
mind-control-ray-proof devices like Herr Zundel & Co. seem so fond of?
However, considering where most of Herr Wankermeister's cognitive
processes aparantly take place, perhaps it should be a jock-strap with a
(size extra small) metal cup instead of a tinfoil wrapped collander?

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sat Aug 24 22:15:59 PDT 1996
Article: 59652 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!noos.hooked.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 14:52:19 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 69
Message-ID: 
References: <321E6DDA.2C9B@unb.ca> <4vmr4s$q97@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4vmr4s$q97@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

> Keith Morrison  wrote:
> 
> >Ole Kreiberg wrote:
> 
> >> >The same thing holds for racism which is
> >> >an important ideological step towards violent nationalism and even
> >> >more evil things (social Darvinism to mention just the worst).
> >> 
> >> You only think on German history. Maybe that is your particular German
> >> experience with racism and nationalism, but this may not be case in
> >> other countries.
> 
> >Rwanada, Burundi, former Yugoslavia, Chechnya, Georgia, Armenia, Iraq
> >and Iran, India, Sri Lanka.  All countries where racist or
> religious/cultural
> >conflicts combined with nationalism have resulted in violence.  All
> >of these *since* Germany in the Second World War.  The list could get
> >a great deal longer rather quickly.
> 
> >In all of these cases racism and nationalism have resulted in violence.
> >Now you want us to believe that Denmark has some sort of magical quality
> >that will allow it to proceed peacefully where every other country has
> >failed?
> 
> multiracial cities are far more violent than homogenous White places like
> Denmark.

Ahem. Herr, Wankermeister, you forget- just to name a few -the following
wars that have taken place in those "homogenous White places like
Denmark:" 

The Hundred Years' War (1337-1453); The Valois-Hapsburg Wars (1495-1560);
The Wars of Religion (1560-1598); The Thirty Years' War (1618-1648); War
of the Grand Alliance (1688-1697); The English Civil Wars (1642-1651); The
Anglo-Dutch Wars (1652-1654, 1665-1667, 1672-1674); The Great Northern War
(1700-1721); War of the Spanish Succession (1701-1714); The Silesian Wars
(1740-1742, 1744-1745); War of the Austrian Succession (1740-1748); The
Seven Years' War (1756-1763); The War of the American Revolution
(1775-1783); The Wars of the French Revolution (1792-1800); The United
Irishmen Revolt (1795-1797); The Napoleonic Wars (1800-1815); The War of
1812 (1812-1815); The American Civel War (1861-1865); The Austro-Prussian
War (1866); The Franco-Prussian War (1870-1871); The Boer Wars (1880-1899,
1899-1902); World War I (1914-1918), The Spanish Civil War (1936-1939),
and last, but certaily _not_ least: World War II.  

And a few choice wars from (Mr. Kreiberg's) home:

The Danish-Swedish War (1506-1512), The Danish Civil Wars (1523-1537), The
"Count's War" (1533-1536), The Seven Years' War of the North (1563-1570),
The Dutch War (1675-1679), The Schleswig-Holstein War (1864), 

Source: _The Harper Encyclopedia of Military History_, Fourth Edition.
 
> duh. 

Duh yourself, you Nazi maladroit.

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Aug 25 09:52:43 PDT 1996
Article: 59687 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.cstone.net!newshost.cyberramp.net!news.onramp.net!newshost.convex.com!cnn.exu.ericsson.se!eua.ericsson.se!news.algonet.se!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-feed2.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!noos.hooked.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Which Jew bankers run the Fed. Res.?
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 02:34:53 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 55
Message-ID: 
References: <4vgi5h$l07@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4vimg1$e4m@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4vimg1$e4m@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

> schwartz@infinet.com wrote:
> 
> >In article <4vfdcb$6qg@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt
> >Stele) wrote:
> 
> >> 
> >> Duh.
> >> 
> >This is without a doubt the most intelligent thing Mr. Stele has posted
> >since he first arrived here.
> > 
> >Keep it up!
> > 
> >Sara
> 
> whatever it was Sara it couldn't have been as dumb as the claim that nazis
> who were supposedly trying to exterminate jews had to use gas chambers
> instead of guns because the nazis were simply "too sensitive" to fire
> their weapons.

You are quite right, Herr Wankermeister. Your claim (which due to your
Giwer-like amnesia you cannot remember) is was not nearly as "dumb" as the
fact that the SS troops in the Einsatzgruppen suffered (often severe)
emotional trauma from carrying out mass murder. Especially the mass murder
of women and children. 

No, Herr Wankermeister, your idiocy was far, far, far stupider than that.... 

> That's one of the best ones I've heard so far.

Somehow, it is unsuprising that you, Her Wankermeister, would find the
idea of mass-murder, and the effects it had on the perpetrtors, amusing. 

Undoubtably, _you_ would have enjoyed the hell out of it, yes? Bet you
_fantasize_ about it too....

> What is amazing is that it constitutes a pivotal element of the Holohoax
> hypothesis.

Actually, what is amazing is that you can pull off pretending you are a
dysfunctional human being so well. After all, the fact that you are really
Giwer's sistser's cat, is out of the bag....

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Aug 25 09:52:44 PDT 1996
Article: 59688 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Economics of Gassing
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 16:39:57 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 43
Message-ID: 
References: <4veegs$jtm@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <321ef6f2.2008226@news.inetport.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi145.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <321ef6f2.2008226@news.inetport.com>, mcurtis@inetport.com wrote:

> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
> 

[major snip of an excellent post]

> >       The the "cheaper than a bullet" proponents
> 
> I think you mistake the meaning. This folks wouldn't be the first
> time. They may have meant that it was cheaper in time, psychology, and
> the use of man-power.

Actually, in specific regards to the cost of killing the victims with
Zyklon B being 0.02 RM ($0.08), I laid out the calculation that anybody
with rudimentary arithmetic skills could follow. The calulation
_specifically_ involved _only_ the cost in regards to Zyklon B and was
used to illustrate that killing with Zyklon B was cheaper, on a per victim
basis, than the cost of using a bullet.

I posted this calulation as an example to refute Herr Wankermeister's
bogus contention that bullets _were_ cheaper to kill with (and thus that
using Zyklon be was stupid) and not, of course, to claim that this was THE
reason _why_ the Nazis chose to use Zyklon B. 

That the Giwer-boob and Herr Wankermeister intentionally misconstrue this
is simply their modus operandi for trolling. 

[snip]


Mark


posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Sun Aug 25 09:52:45 PDT 1996
Article: 59717 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!noos.hooked.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Evil Holocaust Revisionism
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 13:06:02 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 27
Message-ID: 
References: <4vlo01$5em@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4vmuam$qut@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi145.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4vmuam$qut@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

> gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

[snip]

> >I guess it all boils down to one thing: you are an idiot.
> 
> >[Nazi drivel deleted]
> 
> no, it's called "the Allies won the war."
> 
> you shouldn't be so gullible McFee

Herr, Wankermeister, he isn't gullible at all. He has _you_ pegged
correctly for as an idiot....

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Aug 26 18:50:45 PDT 1996
Article: 60215 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n2ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!winternet.com!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: even more types of specia
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 12:46:44 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 31
Message-ID: 
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In article <32209149.7FC1@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison  wrote:

> Matt Giwer wrote:
> 
> >         Except that HCN was never in the CW arsenal of any country in the
> > world and still in not.
> > 
> >         Beyond that, nice try.
> 
> Funny, then, that it has its own STANAG code (AC).  Funny it's listed
> in all standard texts on chemical weapons.  Just because it hasn't
> been stockpiled doesn't mean they haven't considered using it.

[big snip]

The French _used_ HCN in artillery shells (e.g. Vincennite) in World War I. 

Cf. _Text-Book on the Chemical Service_ Major John W.N. Schulz, Corps of
Engineers, U.S. Army 1922, The General Service Schools Press; pp.13-14.

(Citation courtesy of Mr. Mazal, OBC.)

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Mon Aug 26 22:35:47 PDT 1996
Article: 60230 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!cancer.vividnet.com!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!news.mid.net!mr.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Life and Fall of Wlodowa: Sobibor
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 11:44:26 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 46
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References:  <4vritr$s34@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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In article <4vritr$s34@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

> dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
> 
> >kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele) writes:
> 
[Herr Wankermeister's absurd and unsupported speculations about
comparative economic costs of the Nazis killing people in the field and
killing them in camps snipped as they have been disposed of in previous
posts.]

> ># what gas chamber had 2,000 people?  
> 
> >The ones in Kremas II & III in Birkenau.
> 
> yeah, that's why all the millions of ashes are nowhere to be found.
> Millions of tons of ashes vanish without a trace:  gee, how mysterious.

Herr, Wankermeister, there is _hardly_ any mystery involved here. (Except
the one regarding how you manage to dress yourself in the morning!) The
death toll at Auschwitz was approximately 1.13 million people. The amount
of "ashes" produced by cremation is approximately 5-7 lbs.* (2.3-3.17 kg.)
of remains per person. That would imply somewhere around 2,825 to 3,955
tons (2,563 to 3,587 tonnes) of "ashes" (i.e. human remains). 

* Source: http://www.cremation.org:80/faq.shtml

It seems, Herr Wankermeister, that you are only off by about three orders
of magnitude or so.... A wonderful example of Moranic(tm) denier
arithmetic,  Herr Wankermeister! You too have evidenced yourself as being
arithmetically challenged and now qualify to join Moran and Giwerin that
exclusive group of denier boobs who can't count past their fingers and
toes.

[Herr Wankermeister's absurd ranting and spittle-flinging snipped.]

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Aug 27 07:31:51 PDT 1996
Article: 60266 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!bug.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!hustle.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!news.clark.net!mr.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'kurt stele', Mathematical Genius... (Re: Life and Fall of Wlo
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 12:19:26 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 46
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In article <4vritr$s34@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

> dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
> 
> >kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele) writes:
> 
[Herr Wankermeister's absurd and unsupported speculations about
comparative economic costs of the Nazis killing people in the field and
killing them in camps snipped as they have been disposed of in previous
posts.]

> ># what gas chamber had 2,000 people?  
> 
> >The ones in Kremas II & III in Birkenau.
> 
> yeah, that's why all the millions of ashes are nowhere to be found.
> Millions of tons of ashes vanish without a trace:  gee, how mysterious.

Herr, Wankermeister, there is _hardly_ any mystery involved here. (Except
the one regarding how you manage to dress yourself in the morning!) The
death toll at Auschwitz was approximately 1.13 million people. The amount
of "ashes" produced by cremation is approximately 5-7 lbs.* (2.3-3.17 kg.)
of remains per person. That would imply somewhere around 2,825 to 3,955
tons (2,563 to 3,587 tonnes) of "ashes" (i.e. human remains). 

* Source: http://www.cremation.org:80/faq.shtml

It seems, Herr Wankermeister, that you are only off by about three orders
of magnitude or so.... A wonderful example of Moranic(tm) denier
arithmetic,  Herr Wankermeister! You too have evidenced yourself as being
arithmetically challenged and now qualify to join Moran and Giwerin that
exclusive group of denier boobs who can't count past their fingers and
toes.

[Herr Wankermeister's absurd ranting and spittle-flinging snipped.]

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug 28 00:18:04 PDT 1996
Article: 60456 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Survivor's Tale f/ZOG POW
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 22:27:49 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 17
Message-ID: 
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In article <500afv$n10@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

> you forgot the soap :-)

And you, Herr Wankermeister, forgot to bathe after rolling in your Nazi
excrement.

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug 28 07:32:34 PDT 1996
Article: 60490 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "I'm _not_ a Nazi!
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 17:52:11 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
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In article , olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole
Kreiberg) wrote:

> In article , Mark Van Alstine wrote:
> >In article , olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole
> >Kreiberg) wrote:
> >
> >> 
> >> Opinion polls in Denmark show that 72 per cent of population are against
> >> the multiethnic society. Opinion polls made by the European Union show
> >> that Denmark is that country where the largest percentage of the population
> >> is against the presence of immigrants and "refugees" from the third
> >> world.
> >
> >Amazing then that these very same people let them in isn't it? Ah, the
> >appeal of cheap labor wears thin when those "'refugees' from the third
> >world" get to stand in front of you in the checkout line, eh, Mr.
> >Kreiberg? 
> >
>  Who wanted the cheap labour? Certainly not the Danish workers. 

Of course the Danish workers! All those cheap goods and services the
immigrants  provide. So irresistable. Like your social(ist) welfare
programs. 

> The foreign  workers came because some employers were looking for short-term 
> profit. 

Indeed. Because the Danish consumers (a.k.a. workers) like cheaper goods
and services.

> The government promised that they would be send home as soon as there were 
> no longer need for their labour. 

Uh huh. Did Hell just freeze over or what? 

> This is the way the Arab oil-states are treating their foreign workers. 

I see. You wish to emulate the "Arab oil-states," most of which are
despotic regimes? Of _course_ you do, Mr. Kreiberg! I'm  sure you also
greatly envy (but are too yellow to say so) their secret police
organizations and disregard for human rights, etc.....  

> When there are no more work. They are sent home. 

Indeed. After they are, literally, held in servitude for as long as their
"employer has use for them. In kuwait, Mr. Kreiberg, the passports of
"guest workers" are confiscated and held by their "employer" until he sees
fit to let them return home. But again, small wonder you, with your Nazi
proclivities and ideals, would envy such "employers."

> When it comes to citizenships in a country like Kuwait not even other Arabs 
> that have lived for two or three generations in the country can obtain 
> citizenship. 

Indeed. In the case of Kuwait, not even _women_ who can trace their
lineage back "for two or three generations in the country" can have
Kuwaiti citizenship and are politically as well as socially (if not
civilly) disenfranchised to various extents. But again, Mr. Kreiberg, I am
hardly suprised  that you find "value" is such practices, you being a Nazi
and all. 

> This is the country you Americans spent billion of dollars and risked
American 
> lives to "liberate" a few years ago.

Indeed. And which Denmark, though they succor at the teet of Airab oil
which is protected by the political and economic influence- as well as the
military might -of the United States, did not. How telling. 

> >> If there are something in a democracy like the Danish you do not like
> >> you reject it with the ballot paper. The Danish naziparty that always has
> >> been a legal party has never scored more than 2 per cent of the ballot and
> >> the communist no more than 10 per cent. This is the way you do it in a 
> >> democracy. If people find my message reprehensible they will certainly
> >> show that by the ballot paper. And without a majority in the parliament
> >> I would not be able to implement my plan..
> >
> >Umm, Mr. Kreiberg, don't you, er, find something _odd_ with this
picture? Like:
> >
> >"The Danish naziparty that always has been a legal party has never scored
> >more than 2 per cent of the ballot..." 
> 
>  Sure the Danes regarded nazism as Kraut-stuff. Nazism was German chauvinism. 
> Furthermore Hitler said several times that national socialism knows only 
> Germany and is not meant for export. Germany was regarded Denmark's 
> traditional enemy. Even today Germany is watched with distrust and animosity.

LOL! Oh, Mr. Kreiberg! You _are_ a clown! Could it be, rather, that the
Danes simply regards such "Kraut-stuff" as simply abhorrent, having such a
monsterous legacy that it would be beyond the pale to consider such
ideology as tenable in the slightest? That _you_ cannot see this only
underscores _your_ intellectual, as well as moral, depravity. This too I
hardly find suprising. 

After all, you are a scumbag Nazi....


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug 28 07:32:35 PDT 1996
Article: 60519 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Lauck gets 4 years
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 17:24:12 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 117
Message-ID: 
References: <321c9d7e.7844772@news.snafu.de> <4vjntc$qpv@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <321D98B2.53C9@rio.com> <840930792snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>  <841072054snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>
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In article <841072054snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>, A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk wrote:

[snip]

> Prior to World War II Jews were not murdered by the State; 

Oh, Al, beating this particular "no Jews were killed" dead horse again?
Tsk tsk. But then, you've also claimed in the past that no Jews were
killed during Kristallnacht. A claim, it appears from your comment below,
you've dropped like a hot potato....  

Irregardless, Al, the fact remains that Kristallnacht was a state
sponsored pogrom against the Jews that resulted in 236 Jewish deaths and
some 600 serious injuries. (cf. Read & Fisher, _Kristallnacht_; p.69.)

Your claim is false.

> ...crimes against Jews "individual acts" were punished by the courts, 
> sometimes severely. 

The following excerpts show this to be a patently false assertion on your
part, Al. Jewish "individual acts" were _not_ exclusively punishable by
the courts and were also dealt with, sans habeous corpus, under the rubric
of "protective custody." To whit:

Plate 78 from _Concentration Camp Dachau 1933-1945_, p.42:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Protective Custody (Regulations)

[Sub-Section] 1

Admissibility

Protective Custody is a coercive measure of the Secret State Police to
protect the State aganist subversive activity and may be applied to
persons whose behavior endangers the extistance and security of the people
and the State. Ptotective Custody may not be used as a punishment for
criminal offenses or as a substitute for a prison sentance. All criminal
offences are to be dealt with by courts of law.

***

R.34/37 of March 3, 1937

Protective Custody

Protective Custody is to be regarded as a mosty strinent measure to teach
"Volksgenossen" who deliberately ignore their duties towards the community
or endanger state security that they must submit themselves to the
national interest and respect state discipline. 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Plate 214 Ibid., p.101, from the "Deutche Allgemeine Zeeitung," November
10, 1938:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

20 YEARS PROTECTIVE CUSTODY FOR JEWS FOUND IN POSSESION OF ARMS!

                                                  Munich, Nov 10

A decree from SS Reichsfu"hrer Himmler The Reichsfu"hrer and Chief of the
German Police issued the following decree:

No one classified undr the Nuremberg laws as a Jew is allowed to possess
firearms of any description. Those who disregard this law will be sent to
a concentration camp and taken into protective custody for a term of 20
years.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

> With the single spectacular exception of Kristallnacht the persecution of the 
> Jews in Germany did not involve orchestrated violence.

False. The brutality against Jews who were sent to the concentration camps
immediately after Kristallnacht was systematic and widespread. For
example, at Buchenwald Jews arrived and where beaten with "kicks and blows
>from  fists and rifle butts." When a group of 62 Jews where handed over to
the SS at Sachsenhausen by the police, the SS guards sytematically and
brutally beat them with "spades, whips, and clubs" for a half an hour.
When it was over twelve Jews lay dead and the rest were beaten
unconscious. (cf. Ibid. pp.113-114.) 

>   
> Jews were not interned for being Jewish....

False. Nearly 40,000 Jews were placed into "protective custody" and sent
to concentration camps immediately _after_ Kristallnacht. The last of
these "Kristallnacht Jews" weren't released "until well into the spring of
1939, by which time it was too late for them to go anywhere." (cf. Ibid.
pp.112,122.) 

> Leaving that aside, two wrongs don't make a right. 

Indeed. Considering that in this post you've made four grossly false
assertions, your pious mouthings only underscores your churlishness and
lack of integrity.

> Chuck fought for nothing, and his comrades died for the same reason.

Al, did anybody ever mention to you that you're a first class arsehole?
Why don't you run along and restock the loo down at your local pub with
some more of your "pamphlets." I'm sure the patrons appreciate the humor
of it. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug 28 07:32:36 PDT 1996
Article: 60541 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Required Amount Of Zyklon
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 20:25:11 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 277
Message-ID: 
References: <4v9ejf$18j@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4vn109$651@news-e2d.gnn.com>  <4vq2l0$6dv@news-e2d.gnn.com>  <4vul6s$iao@news-e2d.gnn.com>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4vul6s$iao@news-e2d.gnn.com>, Widmann@gnn.com (Richard
Widmann) wrote:

> In article  Daniel Keren wrote:
> ># The importance of these calculations is really in regard to 
> ># the Cyanide concentrations found during the various samples 
> ># and chemical analysis that were conducted.
> >
> >I thought we've been through this, many times.
> >
> >The required exposure time for delousing is very long
> >(many hours). Homicidal gassing with the same concentration
> >kills within minutes.
> 
> Well, here we disagree.  See the complete Rudolf Report for a 
> detailed analysis of this question.
> 
> In brief: 1)The unheated cellars (gas chambers) in K II and III had 
> moist walls, in contrast to the heated delousing chambers on the 
> ground fall. 

The homicidal gas chambers of Kremas II and III weren't unheated:

"Within several minutes, 20 at most, all the victims were dead. The time
required for the gas to take effect depended on various factors that
effected the evaporation of the gas: temperature, humidity, the congestion
inside the chamber. Whenever the outside air temperature was higher than
the inside temperature, the cool air was ectracted by ventilators from the
chamber before the gas pellets were poured inside. To speed up the
evaporation of the poison gas in winter, iron baskets filled with red-hot
coke were brought inside. Some unssuccessful attempts were made to heat
the chamber interior with heat from the chimney flues." (_Anatomy_,
p.170.)

Niether were  homicidal gas chambers of Kremas IV and VI unheated:

"A striking feature of [Bauleitung] drawing 2036(p) is that four of the
rooms are not labelled: the two westernmost rooms and their corridor (with
a total floor area of 240 m^2) and the large room (245 m^2) i the centre
of the building. The stove for this room present on [Bauleitung] drawing
1678 has dissapeared, but each of the two wsternmost rooms has a stove,
the hearths being fired from the corridor, outside the rooms (using coal
>from  the store next to the doctor's room)." (_Technique_. p.398; cf. Ibid.
pp.392,399.)  

> The tendency of the moist walls to become enrichened 
> by hydrocyanic acid would demonstrably have been at least 10 times 
> greater than that of the dry walls in the delousing chambers.

And yet they weren't. This, even if your unssuported allegations were
true, evidence that the walls of the homicidal gas chambers were exposed
for shorter durations and/or to lesser concentrations of HCN than the
delousing gas chambers. Obviously, then the homicidal gas chambers didn't
fuction as delousing chambers if they don't exibit the same forensic
characteristics, no? 

BANG! Oops, how's that foot? 

> 2)  To explain the differences in cyanide values between the gas 
> chambers and the delousing chamber (by a factor of 100 to 1,000), 
> the product of the factors (concentration x gassing times) in the 
> case of gassing of human beings must also have been 1,000 to 10,000 
> times lower, if not less, in order to compensate for the higher 
> rate of HCN absorption by the damp cellar walls.  

[snip]

And what, exactly, was the "rate of HCN absorption by the damp cellar
walls?" What was the concentration of HCN over the period of exposure
(5-20 minutes) in the homicidal gas chambers? What is the immediately
human lethal concentration of HCN? 

BANG! Oops, how's that other foot? 

> If, therefore, the normal quantity of hydrocyanic acid allegedly used to gas 
> human beings was only 1/10th as much as in delousing, the procedure must 
> also have lasted 1/100th or 1/1000th as long.  

If, if, if... So many "ifs," so little substance. Please enlighten us as
to the concentration of HCN released in 10 minutes by 6 kg of Zyklon in a
closed volume of 504 cu m -and in which is also occupied by 1,500 people. 

Here a hint:

http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/cyanide/cyanide.001

> Generously calculating a delousing period of 12 hours, this would 
> mean 0.7 to 7 minutes for a mass killing of human beings. 

"Generously calculating?" Please, do _show_ those "generous calculations!" 

> After that period of time, there could not have been any more gas in the 
> chamber, that is, it must have been successfully ventilated.

Which, of course, has no bearing on the concentration of HCN evolved if it
is arbitrarily _ventilated_ from the gas chamber! Or perhaps you mean to
demonstrate that _because_ a trans-lethal concetration of HCN could evolve
so _quickly_ (i.e. "0.7 to 7 minutes") that the Nazis could then also
_quickly_ ventilate the homicidal gas chambers? 

Amazing. "Proof positive" that there was no reason to wait 20-30 minutes
to ventilate the homicidal gas chambers of Kremas II and III! 

> As we know, Zyklon B continues to give off hydrocyanic acid for 
> over 2 hours.  

And as we also know, from the Zyklon B patent, that:

  "The prussic acid will evaporate in appr. 10 min. if the contents
   of the can is strewn in a thin layer, so the maximum concentration
   of the gas in the room will be achieved with extraordinary speed."

Source: 

http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/cyanide/zyklon/zyklon-patent-excerpt

> >Because of that, the walls of the homicidal gas chambers
> >were exposed to the gas for a much shorter time than
> >those of the delousing chambers.
> >
> >Moreover, the delousing chambers are intact, the gas
> >chambers destroyed and left in ruins for 50 years
> >before Rudolph took his samples; during those 50 years,
> >they were exposed to rain, acid rain etc, which 
> >washed  away some of the cyanide compounds.
> >
> Again from the Rudolf Report, "Fortunately, however, the "gas 
> chamber" in Crematorium II has remained largely intact.  Not only 
> are the materials indisputably original (apart from the holes in 
> the roof - we'll leave this for another day) and free from 
> manipulation, but large parts of it lie in areas protected from 
> weathering by the roof.  

And? L.Keller 1 (the homicidal gas chamber) is "largely intact?" Hardly
more like that: 

"...The significance of rainfall in the process of elution of these
combinations out of the ruin walls is exemplified by Crematorium II in the
Birkenau camp, where we have  found  the  highest (mean) eoncentrations of
cyanide compounds, because many fragments of the gas chamber were to a
great degree protected from precipitation...." 

Source: 

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?orgs/polish/institute-for-forensic-research/post-leuchter.report

In other words, cyanide compounds on _fragments_ of the gas chamber ruins
were protected from the rain. The L.Keller as a whole is pretty much
rubble due to its demolitoin by the Nazis in 1945. 

> Also to address your very criticism, Rudolf wrote: "The question 
> then arises as to why[ the compounds] survived for 50 years in the 
> delousing barracks both in locations protected from weathering and 
> in other locations subject to weathering for 50 years.  Since the 
> walls of the "gas chambers" of CREMATORIA II WERE LARGELY PROTECTED 
> FROM WEATHERING, this last escape attempt was also doomed to 
> failure."  Allso note study showing that pigment is NOT destroyed 
> even when exposed to weathering in superficial applications. (cited 
> in RR)

"...The present study shows that in spite of the passage of a considerable
period of time (over 45 years) in the walls of the facilities which once
were in contact with hydrogen cyanide the vestigial amounts of the
combinations of  this constituent of Zyklon B have been preserved. This is
also true of the ruins of the former gas chambers. The cyanide compounds
occur in the building materials only locally, in the places where the
conditions arose for their  formation and persistence for such a long
time.

In his reasoning Leuchter (2) claims that the vestigial amounts of cyanide
combinations detected by him in the materials from the chamber ruins are
residues left after fumigations carried out in the Camp "once, long
ago"(Item 14.004 of the Report). This is refuted by the negative results
of the  examination of the control samples from living quarters, which are
said to have been subjected to a single gassing, and the fact that in the
period of fumigation of the Camp in connection with a typhoid epidemic in 
mid-1942 there were still no crematoria in the Birkenau Camp. The first
crematorium (Crematorium II) was put to use as late as 15 March 1943 and
the others several  months later."

Source: Ibid.

> ># A comparison of these to the delousing chambers (in which 
> ># approximately the same amount of Zyklon must have been used)
> >
> >Sigh. Same concentration, but far shorter exposure time.
> >
> >We've been through this a zillion times. Isn't enough, enough?
> >
> 
> See my brief comments above and read the Rudolf Report.  Preferably 
> the complete (banned) German edition.

Better yet, read the Kracow Report (Ibid). (With your eyes _open_ this time....)

> >Lastly, aren't Rudolph's findings in the homicidal chambers
> >much smaller than what other chemists found?
> >
> No, where did you get this?  They all appear to be in exactly the 
> sample range.  The lowest sample value that I see is 0.0, the 
> highest 7.2 mg per kg.  Rudolf turned in the 7.2 sample actually.
> >
> I suggest, even if you can't read German to check out the tables in 
> Rudolf's article at http://codoh.com/inter/intgaskamm.html.

Indeed. For the three samples take by Rudolf from L.Keller 1, Kr. II, 
he gives values of: 7.2, 0.6, and 6.7/0.0 (?) mg/kg. 

The team from the Institute of Forensic Research, Cracow, in comparison
gives values of:

A - Sample No;
B - Concentration of CN~ (ug/kg).

------------------------------------------------------------
Crematorium II
------------------------------------------------------------
A       25      26      27      28      29      30      31
------------------------------------------------------------
B       640     28      0       8       20      168     296
        592     28      0       8       16      156     288
        620     28      0       8       16      168     292

Source: Ibid. 

Given that, for instance, the _average_ sample value for Rudolph's samples
is 4.8 mg/kg, while the Cracow team's is 161 ug/kg, it is hard to
reconcile your claim that the results "appear to be in exactly the sample
range" when Rudolph's results appear to be some 24 times greater, on
average, than those of the Cracow team's....

But, of course, this begs the question as to _what_ compounds, exactly,
was Rudolph sampling for? Was it, as in the case of the Cracow team,
hydrogen cyanide? Or in the case of Leuchter (whose sampling results
Rudolf includes in his table, btw) for Prussian blue, a ferrum cyanide
complex? Therein lies the rub. 

This is especially important as Leuchter's methodology was flawed in that,
in the words of the Cracow team:

"The undertaking of chemical analysis had to be preceded by careful
consideration. The revisionists focussed their attention almost
exclusively on Prussian blue, which is of intense dark-blue colour and
characterized by exceptional fastness. This dye occurs, especially in the
form of stains, on the outer bricks of the walls of the former
bathdelousing house in the area of the Birkenau camp. It is  hard to
imagine the chemical reactions and physicochemical processes that could 
have led to the formation of Prussian  blue in that place. Brick, unlike
other building materials, very feebly absorbs hydrogen cyanide, it
sometimes does not  even absorb it at all. Besides, iron occurring in it
is at the third oxidation  state,  whereas  bivalent iron ions are
indispensable for the formation of  the  [Fe(Cn)6]-4 ion, which is the
precursor of Prussian blue. This ion is, besides, sensitive to the
sunlight. 

"J. Bailer (1) writes in the collective work "Amoklauf gegen die
Wirklichkeit" that the formation of Prussian blue in bricks is simply
improbable; however, he  takes into consideration the possibility that the
walls of the delousing room  were coated with this dye as a paint. It
should be added that this blue coloration does not appear on the walls of
all the delousing rooms. (Ibid.) 

All in all, Mr. Widmann, given your dismal perfornmace above, I say that
you've shot your's  -and  C.O.D.O.H.'s- credibility in foot. Both of them.
Several times. Again. 

Ouch.

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug 28 11:12:29 PDT 1996
Article: 136366 of control
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel 
Control: cancel 
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 04:58:48 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
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cancel 


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug 28 11:24:53 PDT 1996
Article: 60547 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Those Sensitive Nazis."
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 23:06:08 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 80
Message-ID: 
References: <4v8457$62t@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <50082s$lo9@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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In article <50082s$lo9@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

[snip]

> ...According to the Holocaust the nazis killed three million by
> shooting....

And what is your evidence, Herr Wankermeister, that the Nazis killed 3
million by shooting? Hmmm? Care to sight the sources tht support this? 

[snip]

> Furthermore, the nazis could have used bombs and killed thousands at a
> time.  

But they didn't, Herr Wankermeister. Body parts that are blown hither and
yon are such a pain to clean up. And clean up the Nazis were ordered to
do. By Himmler's order, "which stated that all mas graves were to be
opened and all bodies cremated It further stated that all ashes were to be
disposed of in such a way that later there would be no way to determine
the number of those cremated." (_Death Dealer_, p. 33.) 

That order was never rescinded. Subsequently _all_ "special actions"
continued to dispose of their victims in compliance with Himmlers order.
Besides, Blobals _tried_ using explocives to get rid of the bodies. It
didn't work. Not much point in blowing people up only to have to gather up
all the pieces afterwards.... 


> Which is more:  a $50 1000-pound bomb that could wipe out 10,000
> people in one time....

Herr Wankermeister, please cite your source that confirms that a 1,000 lb.
bomb costs $50 (circa 1942-44) and that it could kill 10,000 people. 

> ...or capturing, tagging, transporting, cataloging,
> dressing, feeding, maintaining, housing, guarding, and delousing, along
> with the expenses of camp upkeep and soldier maintenance, just to later
> kill them?

Ah, Herr, Wankermeister, you've been told by several times by several
people that the Nazis did do any of this for the deportees who were never
registered in the camps, but who were instead killed on, or shortly after,
they arrived. 

[snip]

> >>but if the nazis wanted to exterminate the jews they could just
> >lined up -ONE- machine gun all day and night and finished the job.  

Herr Wankermeister, please cite your source that confirms that "-ONE-
machine gun" can be fired "all day and night."  Whiel your at it, please
consider how many rounds a barrel for the typical German infratry
light-machine can shoot before it wears out. Then consider the costs of
replacing the barrel (and possibly the MG) several times. 

> ...Or a few bombs. 

See above.

[snip]

> ...Your explanation why they couldn't have blown them up is not convincing in 
> the least.

Ah, but Ho"ss's is: Reichsfu"hrer S.S. Himmler ordered that no remains
were to be left that could indicate how many people the Nazis had killed.
And were continuing to kill. That and Blobel found that he could not do
this using explosives.

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug 28 11:24:54 PDT 1996
Article: 60567 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.orst.edu!v_mail.supra.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!noos.hooked.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: It is libel to call me a nazi.
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 00:33:11 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 32
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References: <7aH3oOev1iBC065yn@login.dknet.dk>   
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article , olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole
Kreiberg) wrote:

> In article , Mark Van Alstine wrote:
> >
> >The Nazi-like ideology and unabashed racism you espouse in your posts
> >brand you a Nazi. Simply pointing this out is hardly libel. 
> 
>  If you do not advocate dictatorship, militarism and other important parts
> of nazism it is libel to be called a nazi. In Denmark, the Danish Association
> (Den Danske Forening) that is founded with the purpose of protesting against
> immigration and agitating for a general repatriation, has won several libel
> cases, where it has been called nazi and even racist. The chairman of 
> this association happens to be a law professor. 
> >
> >So piss off, you miserable, whining little Nazi scumbag. 
>     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >(Ain't the Internet just great!) 
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Yes, in particular if you want to expose yourself as a lowlife verbal thug.

You should know, you low-life verbal Nazi thug.... 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug 28 11:24:55 PDT 1996
Article: 60575 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!psgrain!iafrica.com!pipex-sa.net!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Politics of Holohugging:  Theory
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 22:30:50 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 21
Message-ID: 
References: <4vs9ho$96n@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <500af8$n0g@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <500af8$n0g@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

[snip]

> ...I just wanted to remind you that you still have not produced any evidence
> that the nazis abandoned shooting for gassing after supposedly killing 3
> million jews already. 

And do you, Herr Wankermeister, contend that the Nazis shot to death three
million Jews? Care to provide the cites for this? No? Thought not. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug 28 11:24:56 PDT 1996
Article: 60590 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.alt.net!news1.alt.net!news.u.washington.edu!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.orst.edu!v_mail.supra.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!noos.hooked.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish Ingratitude Towards Nazi Humaneness
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 22:26:22 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 31
Message-ID: 
References: <500dpi$ojs@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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In article <500dpi$ojs@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

> Good day revisionists and revisionist adherents: 

> We have seen that the Nazi's elaborate train/camp scheme along with
> numerous documentation describing the camps as labor camps (along with
> only inferred and tenuous evidence to the contrary) indicate the Germans
> were not trying to exterminate the jews, but rather only to remove them
> from Europe society where they could not continue to exploit, disrupt,
> subvert and otherwise harm the evolution of European society in the ways
> jews had done for centuries....

Hmmm. Looks like Herr Wankermeister's, due to the simple fact he is a
Nazi-wannabe loser, is indulging his fantasies by emulating his Nazi
heroes. In this case Julius Streicher. Obviously, this whacko must read
Der Stu"rmer instead of something more typical of testosterone-laden
pubescents.

Yep. A Nazi to the core, our Herr Wankermeister.... 


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug 28 11:24:56 PDT 1996
Article: 60595 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!fozzie.mercury.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!news.fibr.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Intercontinental" was correct after all
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 22:38:14 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 23
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References: <50082v$lob@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <50082v$lob@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

> I made the point recently that if the nazis were supposedly trying to
> "exterminate" the jews they could and would have done so by the customary
> method of shooting.  The nazis had just allegedly killed 3 million and
> there was good reason for them to switch.... 

And your evidence that the Nazis killed three milion by shooting is, Herr
Wankermeister? 

[The rest of Herr Wankermeister's Nazi apologia drivel snipped as it has
been rebutted in detail already.]

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug 28 11:24:57 PDT 1996
Article: 60596 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Heiden seek
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 00:39:15 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 24
Message-ID: 
References: <841069989snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> <5005h9$7gc@news.enter.net>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <5005h9$7gc@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

[Al getting caught red-handed telling fibs again snipped]

>You ahve one last chance: produce such a statement from the ADL 
>or this will be added to the fabrications (such as: Christine Jeffries 
>was fired from her teaching job because of ADL pressure) that you seem to 
>delight in retelling.

Mr. Edeiken, with all due respect, I do think you've proved your point. No
further chance need be extended to Lyin' Al on this, his latest, snipe
hunt cum lie. You've done belled the cat. 

Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug 28 11:24:58 PDT 1996
Article: 60602 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!psgrain!iafrica.com!pipex-sa.net!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!hole.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holohugger's fall-back: "Nazis were crazy, stupid"
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 22:36:09 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 22
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References: <500836$lod@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <500836$lod@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

> The holohuggers' theory has several inconsistencies within it.  For
> example, the nazis supposedly shot 3 million people but then the nazis
> supposedly began using gas chambers.... 

And your evidence that the Nazis shot to death 3 million people, Herr
Wankermeister? 

[The rest of Herr Wankermeister's Nazi apologia spiel snipped as it has
been rebutted in detail already]

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug 28 12:05:57 PDT 1996
Article: 60607 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!globe.indirect.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!news.infi.net!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!noos.hooked.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Steven Spielberg awarded $1M federal grant
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 00:21:56 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 40
Message-ID: 
References:  <500af1$n0b@newsbf02.news.aol.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi145.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article , dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

> "kurt stele" writes:
> 
> [nothing of importance]
> 
> In one of his first articles on this newsgroup, not long
> ago, the coward hiding under the "kurt stele" alias claimed
> that it would have been impossible to use cyanide gas in
> the gas chambers, as this would "kill the German soldiers
> outside". 
> 
> Note that I challenged him, a few times, to defend this
> claim, but he refuses to; he never responds. He also
> refuses to explain how come there are cyanide compounds
> on the walls of these gas chambers.
> 
> He claims to belong to a "superior race". Why, then, does
> he refuse to debate this matter?
> 
> Is he too dumb?
> 
> Does he know that his claim is a lie?
> 
> How come a member of a "superior race" is such a stupid
> coward? Can anyone explain? 

Sure. It was a typo. It was origionally "posterior face" but got garbled
when translated from Giwerese to Moranic. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug 28 12:05:58 PDT 1996
Article: 60613 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.cstone.net!news1.slip.net!su-news-feed4.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-feed2.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!noos.hooked.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A lesson in true genocide: Rwanda
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 23:08:12 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 31
Message-ID: 
References: <26AUG199614514045@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu> <5007at$lgu@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi145.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <5007at$lgu@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

> In article <4vr6mg$nln@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt
> Stele) writes...
> >Rwanda and the Holocaust distinguished.  
> > 
> >1)  The Germans write everything down.  The Hutus don't.
> 
> >1)  In Rwanda the bodies are accounted for, i.e. no "missing ashes."
> 
> >2)  You are permitted to doubt Rwanda.
> 
>     And who says Holocaust deniers can't count to two?   :>
> 
> 
> I notice you never addressed the point.
> 
> another holohugger trumpeting form over substance

More like another Nazi-wannabe blowing smoke out his butt. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug 28 12:05:59 PDT 1996
Article: 60620 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hoax Revealed:  "Deathcamp" had a Hospital
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 23:39:58 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 79
Message-ID: 
References: <50070l$lde@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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In article <50070l$lde@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

> Here is more evidence the so-called "deathcamps" weren't what the
> Holocauster claim they were.  The nazis proposed the building of new
> hospitals for the Auschwitz camp.  It was quickly approved by the
> Auschwitz camp construction department. This "hospital and quarantine"
> section for 16,596 inmates included surgery, x-ray, delousing, and laundry
> facilities, as well as barracks for severely ill inmates. 
> Pressac acknowledges the difficulty of reconciling these plans with the
> camp's alleged function as an extermination facility: 
> 
> "There is incompatibility in the creation of a health camp a few hundred
> yards from four Krematorien [crematory facilities] where, according to
> official history, people were exterminated on a large scale ... It is
> obvious that KGL [concentration camp] Birkenau cannot have had at one and
> the same time two opposing functions: health care and extermination. The
> plan for building a very large hospital section in BA III ["Mexiko"
> section of Birkenau] thus shows that the Krematorien [facilities] were
> built purely for incineration, without any homicidal gassings, because the
> SS wanted to "maintain" its concentration camp labor force." 
> 
> Jean-Claude Pressac's book, Auschwitz: Technique and Operation of the Gas
> Chambers, p. 512.


Uh, Herr Wankermeister, you _really_ shouldn't try to twist Pressac into
knots like that. Too may people here actually have _Technique_ and can
easily catch you being the decietful little Nazi we all know you really
are. Like now. 

First, the above was Pressac laying out a denier argument regarding
Bauleitung Drawing 2521. (cf. _Technique_, p.512.) 

Just a little further on down the page you will see the following:

"One remark, however, and above all another Bauleitung drawing [Photo 22],
contradicts this plausible, but theoretical, reasoning. Life and death
were such  close neigbors in Birkenau that the only functional hospital
sector, BIIf, was right next to Krematorium III and IV. The sick prisoners
placed in the front row of this demential theatre knew that if there was a
selection, or if they died, they would be reduced to ashes in these
buildings.

"...The decisive argument proving that drawing 2521 was only a PROJECT, is
to compare it with an overall plan of Birkenu, drawing 3764 of 23/3/44
[Photo 22], where BA.III no longer has 16,600 occupants as planned, but
60,000, i.e. the occupancy rate of the baracks has increased fourfould,
the degree of crowding now being comparable to that of BA.II. Under these
circumstances it becomes nonsense to talk about <>.
(Ibid.) 

You, Herr Wankermeister, have just lied by ommision. You have distorted a
text that in its proper context concludes just the exact opposite of what
you claimed it did by quoting it out of context. You, Herr, Wankermeister,
can now join the the ranks of other denier liars: Mr. Baron, Mr. Beaulieu,
Mr. Allen, DvdThomas, Ehrlich606, Mr. Kreiberg, Mr. Griswold, and Mr.
Raven, et. al. 

Of course, I'm afraid you don't _really_ deserve to have such "revisionist
scholars" as comapny. Truth is you just ain't that smart, old chap.
Frankly, you suck. Sorry. Nope, I'm afraid you'll have to go on the "B"
(Butthole) team. You know, the ones who can't quite get it together? Like
H*b*r (all of them), jblackmore/jbelling (both of him), and of course _my_
personnal favorite yahoos: Tommy "Duh" Moran and the Giwer-boob. 

So, please, Herr Wankermeister, let me be the first to welcome you to the
denier liar club. 


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug 28 12:06:00 PDT 1996
Article: 60621 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!nntp.reed.edu!camelot.ccs.neu.edu!nntp.neu.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!bone.think.com!cass.ma02.bull.com!spool.mu.edu!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: It really isn't famous
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 11:25:45 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 27
Message-ID: 
References: <27AUG199605562244@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4vuspk$spv@news.enter.net>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4vuspk$spv@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

> >   dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) writes:
> >  In article , qut@netcom.com (Skipp OBC) 
> writes...
> >  >In <321e76b5.51023457@news> pgroff@txdirect.net (pgroff) writes:
> 
> >  >! My understanding is that you know who rammed a spud on his petard and
> >  >! told everyone look I'm a dictator. ;-)))
>  
> >  >Why do you hate Jews?
>   
> >      Why are you anonymously trolling this group?
> 
>         Why doesn't he find out what a "petard" is?

Because he has hoist himself by his own? 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug 28 14:53:44 PDT 1996
Article: 60638 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp.wwwi.com!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Convenience of Execution by Detonation
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 22:12:54 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 51
Message-ID: 
References: <5008ks$lv2@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <5008ks$lv2@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

[Nazi apologia drivel snipped]

> They could have set up a place where large numbers of jews were simply
> blown into smithereens.  It could be a mile from the train track or more
> (i.e., nearby) and out of reach of any local village.  Easy.  In the
> Russians did precisely that...

[More Nazi apologia drivel snipped]

"...Shortly after Himmler's visit, SS Colonel Blobel from Eichmann's
office arrived and brought Himmler's order, which stated that all the mass
graves were to be opened and all the bodies cremated. It further stated
that all the ashes were to be disposed of in such a way that later on
there would be no way to determine the number of those cremated.

"Blobel had already conducted several various experiments in Kulmhof
[Chelno], which tried to burn the bodies in various ways. He was ordered
by Eichmann to show me the installations. I drove with Ho"ssler to Chelmno
for an inspection. Blobel had different auxilliary ovens built and used
wood and leftover gasoline for the burnings. He also tried using dynamite
to blow up the corpses, but he had very little success with this method.
After the bones were ground up into dust in the bone mills, the ashes were
scattered in the nearby wooded areas...." (_Death Dealer_, p.33.) 

Herr, Wankermeister, it certainly appears you've had about as much success
with your claim that "blown[ing] into smithereens" large "numbers of jews
[sic]" was "easy" as Blobels did... which is to say not much. You
apparantly were unaware, do to your preoccupation in yanking your little
wanker, that the ability to _dispose_ of the victims in such a fashion as
to obscure how may were murdered was quite important to the Nazis. 

In fact, considering your dreadful ignorance on the subject, I'd even
venture to say this new "explosive theory" of your's pretty much fizzled
out. 

Unsyprising, really. I mean, how can one really expect you, Herr
Wankermeister, to _read_ while playing with yourself? (Unless, of course,
thinking about flying body parts gives you a woody....)

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug 28 16:17:35 PDT 1996
Article: 60645 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!psgrain!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!noos.hooked.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Evil Egyptians
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 00:25:54 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 37
Message-ID: 
References: <5006k2$l9j@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <32236D50.820@rio.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi145.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <32236D50.820@rio.com>, Chuck Ferree  wrote:

> Chuck Ferree wrote:
> 
> Moran was dining out. Naw! The Jooos, all of them looked the same and 
> behaved the same. Naw! Moran may have chewed on the bone of a long 
> dead ox...(which as far as I know never went near Yellowstone) but so 
> what. 
> 
> 
> Kurt Stele wrote:
> > 
> > tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
> > 
> > >
> > >
> > >       After a number of days wondering around in the high plains
> > >wilderness, one of which was Yellowstoine Park, Moran returns with
> > >tales from the woods.
> 
> snips whew!!!
> 
> See, kurt, it's the water...which must be mixed 50-50 with whiskey. It 
> does the trick every time. But you know that.

Yes, but its that 50-50 part that has him stumped. All he knows is Moranic
Math (tm)....

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug 28 16:17:36 PDT 1996
Article: 60655 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!udel-eecis!netnews.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!inter2.interstice.com!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.orst.edu!v_mail.supra.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!noos.hooked.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: anti-anti-anti-semitism
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 00:24:04 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 33
Message-ID: 
References: <4vg5p3$fof@newsbf02.news.aol.com>  <4vq3ut$pks@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>  <4vvvfa$kdo@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi145.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article ,
rajiv_gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca (Rajiv K. Gandhi) wrote:

> In article <4vvvfa$kdo@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>, kmcvay@nizkor.org (Ken McVay
> OBC) wrote:
> 
> > Sh*t. You caught me. I confess. I sold 38,344,108.55 vowels to
> > the former Soviet Union last month to finance a brain
> > transplant for Matt Giwer. The $31.11 gained was not enough,
> > alas for the sot, and he's still idling on that pickled vacuum cleaner
> > he calls a mind. I plan a special shipment of "a's" to China
> > next month to raise another $21.33, at which point I may have
> > enough to get the job done. It depends upon the current price
> > of Cherry Jack in Tampa, I'm afraid. Mr. "Stele" will just
> > have to wait until October for his new brain. Judging from the
> > output of the old one, he shouldn't suffer.
> 
> Perhaps Giwer and Stele could use the technology gleaned from the
> Nazi-Zundel-UFO orgy to develop a technique for sharing a brain. Either
> that, or Giwer/Stele might just invest in some Prozac to chase away those
> nasty voices.

Sharing a brain? Is that Giwerese for "pass the bottle?" 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug 28 17:55:36 PDT 1996
Article: 60661 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!news.voicenet.com!netnews.upenn.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Po' widdie Aryan chilluns
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 23:47:57 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 44
Message-ID: 
References: <321a4bef.1970818@news.inetport.com> <4vimk1$e6k@newsbf02.news.aol.com><321a4bef.1970818@news.inetport.com> <4vimk1$e6k@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4vkd4t$rvh@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4vo607$2a4a@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net><321a4bef.1970818@news.inetport.com> <4vimk1$e6k@newsbf02.news.aol.com><321a4bef.1970818@news.inetport.com> <4vimk1$e6k@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4vkd4t$rvh@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4vo607$2a4a@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4vsgf2$hvn@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <500cst$14s8@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:60661 alt.politics.white-power:41157

In article <500cst$14s8@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord
McFee) wrote:

> In message <4vsgf2$hvn@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> - Laura Finsten
>  writes:
> :>
> :>gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:
> :>>In message <4vkd4t$rvh@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> - kmcvay@nizkor.org (Ken McVay
> :>>OBC)23 Aug 1996 06:53:33 -0700 writes:
> :>
> :>[...]
> :>
> :>>:>Wow, are dem Joos powerful!
> :>
> :>>Of course they are powerful.  Don't forget that they control the whole darn
> :>>world, and the known universe, and have co-opted ZOG lackeys like you
and me
> :>>to do their dirty work.  You *do* know that, don't you McVayfeinsten?
> :>
> :>
> :>Watch who you're calling a ZOG lackey, McFeevayovsteinison.  *I'm* no 
> :>lackey, I'm a junior Elder of you-know-what.  And I've got the t-shirt
> :>to prove it.
> 
> Well, lookie who returned from wherever she was!  I never said *you* are a
> lackey; I said *I* am a lackey and that my old buddy McVayfeinsten is also a
> lackey.
> 
> I know you just LOVE to throw that T-shirt in my face (I hope that is not
> susceptible to misinterpretation), but I'll have you know that I have one
> particular T-shirt already and I'm planning on getting the other one next
> year, somewhere.  Be on your guard.

Ahem. I"m _still_ waiting for _my_ ZOG-shirt, Gord. ::::tapping foot:::::

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug 28 17:55:38 PDT 1996
Article: 60671 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Presence here of Non-jewish Holohuggers
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 11:29:37 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 27
Message-ID: 
References: <5006lu$lag@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <5006lu$lag@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt
Stele) wrote:

> The fact that several of the holohugger "A-team" on alt.revisionism e.g.,
> Rich Graves, Bill Anderson, Mike Curtis, Ken McVay, Gord McFee, (Mark Van
> Alstine?) and Chuck Ferree are non-Jews, does not refute the fact of
> jewish media control or the fact of jewish-money power.

Indeed it it would, Herr Wankermeister -IF it were true. But the singular
fact remains that you have tucked your tail between your legs and ran like
a whipped dog when asked to provide evidence confirming your wild and
specious allegations of "jewish media control [sic]." 

But, of course, there is no such evidence. Your strawman just blew away,
Herr Wankermeister.... 

[Herr Wankermeister's absurd fantasies snipped]

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug 28 17:55:38 PDT 1996
Article: 60673 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sgi.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holohugger's fall-back: "Nazis were crazy, stupid"
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 11:42:14 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 84
Message-ID: 
References: <500836$lod@newsbf02.news.aol.com>  
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article , dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

> kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele) writes:
> 
> # The holohuggers' theory has several inconsistencies within
> #  it.  For example, the nazis supposedly shot 3 million people 
> # but then the nazis supposedly began using gas chambers.  Why?  
> # There are far more effective and economic ways than "gassing" 
> # to exterminate:

Start naming them Her Wankermeister. Shooting (i.e Einsatgruppen) is out
as more victims killed with Zyklon B, per SS man, at Auschwitz than the
the Einsatzgruppen did in the field. Mass shootings of Jews in the ghettos
was frowned up upon (not that it didn't happpen), as has also been pointed
out to you, as it caused it own problems. Blowing the victims into bits is
right out. Blobel tried that with the victims _after_ they were gassed (at
Chelmno). Obviously, the Nazis didn't seriously consider, unlike you Herr
Wankermeister, mass extermination with explosives a viable alternative.
Besides, Blobel found, blowing the corpses to smithereens made it too
difficult to get rid of the bodies per Himmler's order. 

> Gassing saved ammunition, which is very important in war
> time. But we've been through this.

Indeed, Dr. Keren. It appears, however, Herr Wankermeister has a
short-term memory retention problem. Either that or he's about as smart as
the Giwer-boob.  Which is to say, of course, that Herr Wankermeister
_might_ give a tree stump a run for its money....) 

> 4 Kg of Zyklon-B kill 2,000 people in 15 minutes. Very
> cheap, very fast, wastes no ammunition.

Indeed, Dr. Keren. 20 RM for 1,000 victims. 5-20 minutes. No ammo required.

> # Note the "gas" referred to is Zyklon-B the insecticide.

As if insecticides _can't_ kill people? (More correct, btw, is that Zyklon
was a fumigant.) 

"Multiple incidents of illness and death following exposure
to fumigated agricultural products in railroad cars have been
reported by several states along the U.S.-Mexico border. From
1989 through 1993, the Texas Department of Health identified
three incidents involving 11 exposed persons, resulting in two
deaths. The California Environmental Protection Agency,
Department of Pesticide Regulation, recorded two deaths in
fumigated boxcars in 1989. This report summarizes the two most
recent fatal incidents...."

Source: http://www.crc.nus.sg/MEDNEWS/aug94/7371_4.html

Uh, btw, Herr Wankermeister, Nazi nerve agents (e.g. Sarin, Soman, and
Tabun) were _direct_ derivitives of insecticides....

> Zyklon-B releases HCN, the same gas used for execution in
> gas chambers in US prisons.

Indeed, Dr. Keren. Quite lethal too. Immediately so at 300 ppm.  

> You cannot think. But then again, you're the same person
> who claimed that million of victims would have left "millions
> of tons of ashes".

:::sigh::: 

Pretty soon Herr Wankermeister (or is it "Unterwankermensch?") will
probably start claiming an IQ 0f 163 and that he is an "expert" on all
things great and small.... (The _small_ I can understand. After all he
_is_ an "Unterwankermensch," right?) 


Mark


posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug 28 18:07:41 PDT 1996
Article: 136450 of control
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel 
Control: cancel 
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 00:33:04 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 1
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NNTP-Posting-Host: rbi145.rbi.com
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

cancel 


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug 28 18:07:43 PDT 1996
Article: 136495 of control
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
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From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug 28 18:07:44 PDT 1996
Article: 136510 of control
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From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug 28 18:07:45 PDT 1996
Article: 136517 of control
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From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug 28 22:56:40 PDT 1996
Article: 60690 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 15:36:24 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
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In article <502ccj$g1v@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa) wrote:

> To: Mike Curtis
>       I have missed the point of most of your posting
> of 8/27.  However, rather than discuss personalities
> or styles of discussion, I suggest that we get 
> back to the point of this thread, ie. the present
> condition of Leichenkeller 1 of Crema II at
> Birkenau/Auschwitz and what can be learned from 
> it. 
>      
> The starting point of the discussion was that
> most (90%) of the orginal slab roof exists.
> Would you agree with this?  I am asking you 
> in your capcity as a Nizcor expert.
> 
> CEACAA
> 
> My "source" for this assertion is the fact that I have visited the 
> site and inspected the Leichenkeller.

Please, Mr. Allen, your assertions don't hold water. You have claimed to
possess photos "proving" your claims regarding the holes in the roof used
to introduce Zyklon B. Yet you refuse to post them, offering excuse after
excuse. You claim to have visited the ruins at Birkeanau but offer no
corroborating evidence. Nothing but your suspect word. 

Now you again claim- based on your worthless assurances -that 90% of the
roof exists? Suuuure, Mr. Allen. Define "roof." Define "exist." We've been
around this denier bush a few too many times. First it spouting denier
drivel about the "pillers" then, it's the  "roof," then its the "vents,"
then it's the "little chimneys." Around and around we go Mr. Allen.
Everytime you paint yourself into a corner you try to squirm out by
changing the subject, ad nauseum.

:::sigh::::

Irregardless, Mr. Allen, based on the photos of L.Keller 1 in _Technique_
it is self-evident that nowhere 90% of a roof for L.Keller 1 exists. 

roof n. 1 the outside top covering of a building

There are, however, some broken concrete slabs and much rubble and debris
at the floor of L.Keller 1. About all one can say with certainty is that
perhaps a fourth to a third of the roof at the end furthest from the ruins
of the Krema shell is only _partially_ collapsed. This is the part of the
"roof" where Pressac climbed underneath and took photos.

This is why they are called _ruins_, Mr. Allen. But you knew that. I hope.


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug 28 22:56:41 PDT 1996
Article: 60691 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!tribune.usask.ca!decwrl!spool.mu.edu!news.sgi.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: "I'm _not_ a Nazi!
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 12:43:28 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
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In article , olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole
Kreiberg) wrote:

> In article , Daniel Keren wrote:
> >Unterschardummkopf olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) writes:
> >
> ># Am I a looser, because I do not believe in multirecialism?
> >
> >No. You're a loser because you were born 50 years too
> >late and missed all the fun.
> >
> >Now bugger off, nazi-boy.
> >
> >
> Hey you forget that I am not German. If I had lived in those days, how 
> could I have been on the German side without being regarded as a traitor by 
> my own people? There were 200000 enemy soldiers in my country but less than 
> 10000 Jews. Which of those two groups would I have regarded the greatest 
> menace? 

And, Mr. Kreiberg, who says you're _not_ a traitor to your own "people?"
(i.e. your fellow Danish citizens.)  In _my_ book you certainky are. 


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug 28 22:56:41 PDT 1996
Article: 60692 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: It is libel to call me a nazi.
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 12:41:35 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
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In article <0DQ8oOev1SKB065yn@login.dknet.dk>, olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole
Kreiberg) wrote:

[snip]

> Did the America First movement want to abolish the American constitution 
> and make the USA into a dictatorship. If not, you do not have the right to
> call them nazis.

Silly Nazi. Of _course_ I (or Mr. Edeiken) the the (Constituionallly
protected) right to call members of the America First movement Nazis. Of
course, it also helps, from a argumentative point, that they also
supported the Nazis and shared their ideological bed. 

Like you do, you silly Nazi goose. 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug 28 22:56:42 PDT 1996
Article: 60709 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Sara, the great grammarian
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 15:37:50 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
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In article , olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole
Kreiberg) wrote:

> In article ,
schwartz@infinet.co wrote:
> >In article , dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
> >wrote:
> >
> >> Unterschardummkopf olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) writes:
> >> 
> >> # Am I a looser, because I do not believe in multirecialism?
> >> 
> >> No. You're a loser because you were born 50 years too
> >> late and missed all the fun.
> >> 
> >> Now bugger off, nazi-boy.
> >
> >Not to mention the fact that it is:
> > 
> >loser, not looser
> > 
> >multiracialism, not multirecialism
> > 
> >Sara
> >
>  Who have we got here? Isn't it the great grammarian, Sara Schwartz. Sarah 
> was number one in spelling in her class at highschool, and now she thinks 
> that this makes her much smarter than us stupid goyim. ;-)

Well, for certain, you nattering Nazi twit, she is smarter tha _you_! 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug 28 22:56:43 PDT 1996
Article: 60712 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Gas-tight doors
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 15:56:54 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 50
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In article , dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
> 
> # Yes, a "gas"tight door would be expected.  It would also
> # be airtight to keep out the direct effects of the overpressure
> # of a bomb or shell.
> 
> Sigh. He never gives up, does he?

Nope. He's too stupid to realize when he's been whipped. 

> Why does only one of the underground morgues have a gas-tight
> door? If both were shelters, both would have them, right?
> 
> The answer is simple. The gas chamber, or "gassing cellar"
> as it is described in the documents, needed a gas-tight door.
> 
> The other cellar was the so-called "undressing room", and
> it didn't need a gas-tight door.

Additionally, said gas tight door was made from wood. Pitiful protection
against "direct effects" from a bomb. It would, however, make plenty of
splinters that would fly into L.Keller 1. Also, there was glass peephole
in this door. Just like the ones the delusing gas chambers had. In fact,
the door to L.Keller 1 was nearly identical to the doors used on the
delousing gas chambers. Anyways, what kind os sense does it make to have a
_glass_ peephle in a "bomb shelter" door, considering that overpressure
would blow it out sending the glass shards flying to the L.Kller as
shrapnel? Why the _same_ sense it makes to has a wooden "blast" door!
Which is none of course! Then there is the issue of did the roof of 
L.Keller 1 have four holes in it? Holes that likely measured 70 cm x 70
cm? Especially, if as the Giwer-boog suggests, the _door_ to the L.Keller
was gas-tight to protect against "the direct effects of the
overpressure?"  Sounds kind of like battening down the hatches and then
opening the petcocks....

Such, however, is the (tortured) "logic" of the Giwer-boob. 


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Wed Aug 28 22:56:43 PDT 1996
Article: 60713 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ausrotten and the only good Indian is a dead Indian
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 16:02:54 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
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References: <7aH3oOev1iBC065yn@login.dknet.dk> <3218666d.328313619@news.inetport.com>   <4vlj6l$gk9@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <32207BD5.584C@unb.ca> <4vrge8$8e8@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <3221FF6F.6B17@unb.ca> <500o7i$a0r@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <3224B68F.3590@unb.ca>
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In article <3224B68F.3590@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison  wrote:

[snip]

>> Giwer, you wouldn't know physical evidence if someone rammed it up your ass
> and connected it to a thirty amp generator.

No, he wouldn't. But it'd still be fun to see his face "light up" from the
experiance! It's be the only "spark" of intelligence the dim-bulb would've
had in a _long_ time....

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu Aug 29 07:27:51 PDT 1996
Article: 60791 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!uwm.edu!news.inc.net!newspump.sol.net!nntp0.mindspring.com!news.mindspring.com!gatech!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi145.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Kleim and Schoedel.  Forgotten, perhaps, but not gone
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 23:08:12 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
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In article <502nnt$91u@Networking.Stanford.EDU>, rcgraves@ix.netcom.com
(Rich Graves) wrote:

> joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg) writes:
> >Quite by accident, I found a vaguely interesting site earlier today at 
> >
> >http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~bb748/
> 
> Many of us did not need to find it by accident.
> 
> >It's Kleim, of course, and he's remarkably unchanged.   
> 
> I beg to differ.
> 
> >Reading between the lines, it's pretty clear he and Schoedel were hoping to 
> >get some attention (and, in Schoedel's case, clearly some speaking gigs) out 
> >of the whole abandoning-the-failed-movement shtick, and it's clear it didn't 
> >work.
> 
> Yeah. Whatever. You must be squinting awfully hard.
> 
> >But Kleim's kinda klever -- he even includes a link to the quotes on Nizkor 
> >that he used to whine were an illegal abuse of his copyright.  
> 
> When did he say this? Giwer and Schoedel, yes.
> 
> >Leopard and spots and dog and vomit and all that . . .
> 
> He's a fast leopard, and he's not an old dog.
> 
> People grow out of cults all the time. Why is this so hard to accept?

Oh, I don't know... Maybe it was the part about how...

"...Deep down, every Aryan male within the "movement" feels an
unmistakable sexual frustration. Especially so unattached males, but
nearly all males in general. It's a matter of "darkie getting blondie.
...He who denies this is a liar."

While later on saying...

"We Aryans are, and always have been, our own worst enemy. In fact, there
is NO 'enemy' besides ourselves. The cowards, frauds and losers blame all
Jews, all Blacks, and all other non-Whites for our own failings. WE, not
they, lack the character to advance ourselves. WE, not they, refuse to
accept responsibility for our shortcomings. In infantile jealousy
"movement" leaders put forth hateful orgasmic fantasies of conquest and
nuclear revenge against those peoples who
have the stamina, the insight, the COURAGE, to advance themselves where we
have abdicated. ...You know this to be true. Be a man and admit it aloud."

Etc. Etc. The dichotomy of such verbage is, to say the least, a bit amusing. 

However, amusement aside, it looks like Miltie _is_ trying to get _some_
kind of life. Certainly not kind _I'd_ want, but one that is- at first
glance -an attempt at better one than _he_ had before.

Maybe. It's really too soon to tell, IMO. You know those cults- hard to
break _all_ those bad habits they instill overnight....

Like being a racist.  

Source: http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~bb748/HomePage.third.html

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Aug 30 08:40:27 PDT 1996
Article: 60928 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.inforamp.net!winternet.com!mr.net!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Lauck gets 4 years
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 16:22:40 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 29
Message-ID: 
References: <321c9d7e.7844772@news.snafu.de> <4vjntc$qpv@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <321D98B2.53C9@rio.com> <840930792snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>  <841072054snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>  <841317265snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>
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In article <841317265snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>, A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk wrote:

> In article 
>            mvanalst@rbi.com "Mark Van Alstine" writes:
> > Irregardless, Al, the fact remains that Kristallnacht was a state
> > sponsored pogrom against the Jews that resulted in 236 Jewish deaths and
> > some 600 serious injuries. (cf. Read & Fisher, _Kristallnacht_; p.69.)
> > 
> The claim of 236 deaths is a lie; I have seen the figures 91,96 & 97, and
> would dispute even those.

Prove it then instead of sitting on your sleazy ass crying "it's a lie!"

> The following is an excert from my book (covering the Jews under the Nazis)
> if you want the footnotes, buy the book.

Thanks, but no thanks, I use TP. 

[Baron's _unssuported_ denier guano, snipped for sanitary reasons]

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Aug 30 08:40:28 PDT 1996
Article: 60932 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!gatech!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: There were no food problems after WW II
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 16:41:05 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 33
Message-ID: 
References: <4vr5f7$g8v@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <3220D2FB.357E@rio.com> 
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In article , qut@netcom.com (Dave Harman OBC) wrote:

> In <3220D2FB.357E@rio.com> Chuck Ferree  writes:
> 
> ! Chuck Ferree wrote:
> ! 
> ! Oh, yeah, there were plenty of food problems after WW-II. I was still 
> ! in Germany-Austria, other parts of Europe until Dec. 1945. Our 
> ! Marshall Plan saved thousands from starvation. And the ordinary GI 
> ! helped a great deal too. I was there, where was Matt Giwer?
> 
> Germans continued to starve for years after the war.  United Nations 
> soldiers let the grain rot and barred imports to prevent death by 
> starvation of Germans.  You witnessed the starvation.

And do you also believe that the UN flies "black helicopters" around the
U.S. and has "concentration camps" here as well? 

More importantly, how much of your life savings did you send to Ernst
"UFO" Zundel so that he could hop on down to that "Nazi UFO base" in
Antartica? 

(Or was it Tahiti.... };-> ) 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Aug 30 08:40:28 PDT 1996
Article: 60949 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: If no lice, then no Holocaust
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 16:16:33 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 120
Message-ID: 
References: <3225a688.1669720@news.pacificnet.net>
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <3225a688.1669720@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) wrote:

>                             [Repost]
>                 
>                               - DACHAU - 
> 
>                       By Marcus J. Smith 
>                State University of New York Press
> 
> Chapter 19, "The Burial Detail"
> 
>         "Many of the big guns of the Medical Corps are loaded, and on May
> 3, seventy two hours after our arrival in the camps, the barrage
> begins that will bring victory against the body lice, the
> misanthropic, parasitic, insects responsible for the transmission of
> typhus fever from person to person. The Army has contributed enough
> DDT so that dusting of all the inmates at Dachau and Allach can start.
> By a superhuman effort the task is completed in five days. In addition
> to the inmates. the official quarantine calls for dusting of all other
> personnel - Army personnel, guards, visitors, Allied officials - when
> they leave the inner camp for the outer area. Furthermore, these
> persons are required to show their immunization records and be given
> typhus vaccine, unless they have received the vaccine during the
> previous thirty days. We should like to inoculate the inmates at this
> time, but such action will have to wait. Despite the mighty resources
> of the Army, there is insufficient vaccine on hand."
>                           
>         So it seems in the final months of the war, when the food
> supplies were having a tough time getting to the camps, even the
> Zyklon supply was cut off. 

And where did the quote say this? It didn't. Moran is projecting his fantasies. 

> And since even the victorious U.S. Army was short on supplies of typhus 
> vaccine, we can understand what kind of problems the Germans would have had 
> getting the vital necessities to the camps while they were undergoing heavy 
> bombardment of their cities, supplies and routes.

A false syllogism. The insufficiency (or even the existence) of a "typhus
vaccine" in the U.S. Army by no means supports Moran's allegation that the
Germans had "problems" in supplying concentration camps with supplies and
resources. Moran is projecting his fantasies again. 

> It also demonstrates that there was a persistent problem with    
> Typhus Fever, caused by lice, and this is why the fumigant Zyklon B
> was even on the premises of the camps in the first place.

Typhus (Rickettsia prowazekii) is a disease typically transmitted in the
feces of the human body louse. Zyklon B would have been ineffective by
itself in combating typhus in the camps if the standard of the prisoners'
personal hygiene was not sufficiently high enough to prevent them from
being (re-)infested by typhus carrying lice. As the Nazis _made sure_ the
hygienic conditions of the prisoners were so poor they became susceptible
to typhus (and other diseases), no amount of Zyklon B could have
eradicated it from the camps. Conversely, if the prisoners' living and
hygienic standards would have been kept at _humane_ levels there would
have been no _need_ to use Zyklon B in attempting to control typhus
outbreaks at the camps -as there would have been no typhus outbreaks to
control! 

A prime example, for instance, was Auschwitz. Typhoid was _endemic_ to the
camps, due to the abysmal living and hygienic conditions _forced_ on the
prisoners by the Nazis, _irregardless_ of how hard (not very) and how
often (not very) the Nazis attempted to bring it under "control." They
failed to do so _because_ they _chose_ to keep the prisoners in hygienic
conditions _extremely_ favorable to the spread of typhus, which was
_endemic_ throughout Auschwitz during its entire existence and _epidemic_
during the summer of 1942.

And of course such _intentional_ conditions existed at many of the other
camps as well. Like  Dachau. Typhus was epidemic at Dachau when it was
liberated. The Nazis _allowed_ the precursing conditions to exist that
caused this. When the U.S. Army liberated Dachau they not only disinfested
the camp with DDT, but also _thoroughly_ deloused (and in many cases
treated and quarantined) the prisoners _and_, most importantly, rectified
the _abysmal_ hygienic conditions they were _forced_ to live in. 

Of course, all this was common hygienic knowledge at the time. The SS
simply _chose_ to inflict such degradation and unsanitary conditions on
the prisoners as part of their efforts to dehumanize them. The Nazis
_forced_ the prisoners to live in conditions that they wouldn't inflict on
animals. In fact, draft animals were treated better than the inmates of
the camps! 

> If it wasn't for lice, there would be no Zyklon B found. If no
> Zyklon B found then no agent of mass extermination to identify. If no
> agent found, no gas stories would have endured. Therefore, if no lice,
> no Holocaust.   

Another false syllogism. Other methods _besides_ Zyklon B were used for
mass extermination by the Nazis. Furthermore, though the _circumstances_
by which Zyklon B was chosen for use at Auschwitz was serendipitous, by no
means does this imply that if there were no typhus outbreaks at the camp
that it wouldn't have been chosen _anyway_. Fumigation and delousing would
have _still_ been carried out as part of standard prophylactic hygienic
measures. Zyklon B would have _still_ been used at the camps. 

Additionally, both Eichmann and Ho"ss were looking for a suitable lethal
agent other than CO for the homicidal gas chambers at Auschwitz. (cf.
_Death Dealer_, p.28-29.) Experiments with various gases, including Zyklon
B, were carried out under the auspices of the T-4 program (_War Against
the Jews_, p.133) and it would be reasonable to say that the results of
those experiments would have been available to Eichmann. It just so
happened that Ho"ss's subordinate, Fritzsch, "discovered" while
"experimenting" with Zyklon B, how terribly _effective_ it was as a
homicidal agent. When Ho"ss was told of Fritzsch's results, he recalled in
him memoirs his relief at finding the homicidal agent for Auschwitz: "Now
I was at ease. We were all saved from these bloodbaths, and the victims
would be spared until the last moment..." (Ibid. p.157.) 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Aug 30 08:40:29 PDT 1996
Article: 60955 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Whereabouts of Les: Speculation Mounts
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 17:22:43 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 21
Message-ID: 
References: <4VO52R$OR2@FREENET-NEWS.CARLETON.CA> <19960827.090552.571659.NETNEWS@WVNVM.WVNET.EDU> <4vvnf5$gon@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>  <504t3g$k1c@lendl.cc.emory.edu>
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In article <504t3g$k1c@lendl.cc.emory.edu>, libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu
(william c anderson) wrote:

> Dave Harman OBC (qut@netcom.com) wrote:
> 
> : Fuckhead.
> 
> Hey, Kurt!  Over here!  Here's another example of how deniers never,
> ever engage in name-calling!

LOL! I _love_ it! 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Aug 30 08:40:30 PDT 1996
Article: 60956 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Lauck gets 4 years
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 16:32:15 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 33
Message-ID: 
References: <321c9d7e.7844772@news.snafu.de> <4vjntc$qpv@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <321D98B2.53C9@rio.com> <840930792snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>  <841072054snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>  <841317712snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>
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In article <841317712snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>, A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk wrote:

> In article 
>            rajiv_gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca "Rajiv K. Gandhi" writes:
> 
> > Liar. Jews were placed into concentration camps, where they were tortured,
> > experimented on, and murdered, specifically because they were Jewish.
> 
> Not true. There were still Jews in Berlin in 1944. One of the reasons they
> could be sent to Auschwitz was for smoking a cigarette in public. Do your
> homework before you denounce me as a liar, arsehole.

That Jews were sent to "concentration camps, where they were tortured,
experimented on, and murdered, specifically because they were Jewish" is
most certainly true. This, of course, does not preclude the fact that
"there were still Jews in Berlin in 1944." Nor does the fact that Jews
could be found in Berlin in 1944 preclude the fact that were sent to
concentration camps en mass as early as 1938. 

Baron's dissimulation of this fact simply highlights his lack of integrity
and the fact that he is an ignorant arsehole as well as a liar. 

[snip]

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Aug 30 08:40:31 PDT 1996
Article: 60967 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "The Seekers" and the effect of name-calling
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 17:27:54 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 26
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In article <32261082.3282@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison  wrote:

> Kurt Stele wrote:
> > 
> > You ever noticed the frequency and amount of name-calling that
> > holocausters do on alt.revisionism (the same little clique of them that
> > is)?
> > 
> > And then compare it with that done by revisionists?  (little if any, and
> > typically only in response to repeated holocauster attacks).
> > 
> > Unprovoked name-calling is both childish and unseemly.
> 
> I can't.  This is so easy, I'd be ashamed of myself.

Oh, go ahead, Keith. I promise I won't peek. Much.  };-> 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Aug 30 08:40:31 PDT 1996
Article: 60972 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Required Amount Of Zyklon (Re: I am still waiting)
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 23:43:19 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 58
Message-ID: 
References: <4v9ejf$18j@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4vrgj0$8e8@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>  <4vtmel$di9@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>  <500var$a0r@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> 
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In article , alec@gryn.org (Alec Grynspan) wrote:

> <*[*] [*] [Matt  Giwer] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +>
> <+[Re: Required Amount Of Zyklon (Re: I am still waiting)] [Wednesday August
> 28 1996 04:18][*][0]*>
> 
>  MG>   Yes, spreadsheets are at the heart of computer science with
>  MG> array packing and multiattribute array elements and optimal
>  MG> packing without representing every attributed of every element.

"Heart of computer science?" 

"Array packing?"  

"Multiattribute array elements?" 

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!  Ooops! ::clunk::

Sorry, folks, fell off my chair there. 

Packed arrays have been around since (at least) Wirth gave us Pascal. As
for "multiattribute" [sic] arrays? Well, K&R gave us those in C. They're
called arrays of structs and/or pointers. Of course, this all happened
some time ago too. Like before spreadsheets were made for the PC. 

But the Giwer-boob forgot to mention all the other _really_ fundemental
stuff like hashing, sorting, and searching algorithms. Not to mention core
CS disciplines like compiler and OS design, numerical analysis, computer
graphics, image processing etc. etc. 

You know, stuff like what Dr. Keren does: Computer Science.

>  MG> But then, what is the optimum packing algorithm for a sparsely
>  MG> packed n-dimensional array?

Gee, Giwer-boob, do YOU know? And, which, spreadsheet(s) do this? 

>  MG> If you have never heard of the issue, sue Brown.  It cheated
>  MG> you.

More like try not falling off one's chair in a fit of laughter at the
Giwer-boob's drivel....

> Your ignorance is truly awsome, Matt. Is there anything that you do
> know?

"Shaken, not stirred?"  Nahhh. More like: "Bottoms up! I'l get you yet you
little worm!" 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Aug 30 08:40:32 PDT 1996
Article: 61008 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Steven Spielberg's SS Amon Goth?
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 01:58:22 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 164
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aIn article <505u30$ii3@juliana.sprynet.com>, jbelling@sprynet.com wrote:

[snip]

> Isn't it curious how we never hear a word from some of these people 
> when their demand for proof is met?  I am still waiting for Chuck Feree 
> to post the evidence that Julius Streicher was a pornographer as well 
> as the evidence for which he was hanged.

"STU"RMER, DER (The Attacker), Nazi weekly newspaper with a wide
circulation that addressed itself to man's basest and most primitive
instincts. Founded by Julius STREICHER, _Der Stu"rmer_ was first published
in the spring of 1923. Its initial targets were Streicher's local party
enemies in Nuremberg. The mainstay of the paper during the Weimar period
was scandal, at first chiefly sensational political journalism, sex. and
crime. Throughout this time, its anti_Semitic tone increased.... The style
of the paper was crude, aggressive, and easily comprehensible; the
articles were composed of simple, clear sentences, blunt and repetitive.
The most striking element was the anti-Semitic cartoons, which became the
paper's highlight after the work of Phillip Rupprecht ('Fipps') first
appeared on the front page on December 19, 1925. 'Fips,' a master
caricaturist, sought to make the subjects of his cartoons contemptible
through ridicule. His drawings were vivid and revolting. The essential
characteristics of 'Fips''s Jews were ugly faces with huge hooked noses,
bulging eyes, large ears, swollen lips, and unshaven beards; long hairy
arms and hands; and short crooked legs/ They were also portrayed as
sexually perverted. 'Fips' was a master at drawing sensuous female figures
as well, which contributed significantly to _Der Stu"rmer's_ appeal. 

"After 1933, nine special editions were published, often timed to appear
at the annual Nuremberg rally, focusing on themes such as ritual murder by
Jews, Jewish criminality, the world Jewish conspiracy, and Jewish sexual
crimes.... (_Encyclopedia of the Holocaust_, pp. 1420-1421.) 

****

"This depraved sadist, who started life as an elementary school teacher,
was one of the most disreputable men around Hitler from 1922 until 1939,
when his star finally faded. A famous fornicator, as he boasted, who
blackmailed even the husbands of women who were his mistresses, he made
his fame and fortune as a blindly fanatical anti-Semite. His notorious
weekly, _Der Stu"rmer_, thrived on lurid tales of Jewish sexual crimes and
Jewish 'ritual murders'; its obscenity was nauseating, even to many Nazis.
Streicher was also a noted pornographist...." (Rise and Fall of the Third
Reich, p. 80.) 

****

"[January 10, 1946] MORNING SESSION: ...Mr. Griffith-Jones then cited
Streicher's speeches and writings as proof of his moral guilt in inciting
to mass murder (from a speech in 1926): 'For thousands of years the Jew
has been destroying nations. Let us make a new beginning today so that we
can annihilate the Jews.' Pornographic-pseudo science: 'The male sperm in
cohabitation is partially or completely absorbed by the female, and thus
enters her bloodstream. One single cohabitation of a Jew with an Aryan
women is sufficient to poison her blood forever. Together with the alien
albumen she has absorbed the alien soul. Never again will she be able to
bear purely Aryan children, even when married to an Aryan ... Now we know
why the Jew uses every artifice of seduction in order to ravish German
girls at as early an age as possible; why the Jewish doctor rapes his
patients while they are under anesthetic. He wants the German girl and the
German women to absorb the alien sperm of the Jew.' Fantastic stories of
ritual murder were also contained in the Stu"rmer....

"AFTERNOON SESSION: Mr. Griffith-Jones showed that besides publishing a
paper full of pornography, ritual murder, rape stories, and other lurid
incitements to persecution of the Jews, Streicher found anti-Semitism
profitable as Gauleiter of Franconia. Much of the proceeds from the
aryanization of Jewish property failed to reach the Reich treasury. That
was the ostensible reason for his removal from office in 1040, but the
Stu"rmer continued to serve its purpose.... (_Nuremberg Diary_,
pp.117-118.) 

"[April 26, 1946] AFTERNOON SESSION: Streicher started off his defense by
denouncing his own defense counsel for not conducting his case along the
lines he wanted. This forced the defense counsel to defend himself before
the court for not wishing to defend Streicher's anti-Semitism, and to
request the court's decision as to whether he should continue to defend
his client under the circumstances. He was told to continue. Streicher
then started with a bombastic oration, describing himself as the
fate-ordained apostle of anti-Semitism. He described with dramatic fervor
how he met and was inspired by Hitler and the halo around his head. [The
judges listened quizzically. Signs of embarrassment were obvious
throughout the dock. Goering ostentatiously buried his head in his hand as
though sick. Doenitz shook his head very sadly and closed his eyes.] In
the course of the examination Streicher had to be reprimanded for calling
the previous witness, Gisevius, a traitor.... (Ibid. p.301.) 

"[April 29, 1946] MORNING SESSION: Streicher tried to prove that he
destroyed Jewish synagogues only because of architectural taste. He
admitted that the anti-Jewish demonstrations of November 10, 1938, was not
a spontaneous affair but a pogrom precipitated by Goebbels, of which he
had previous knowledge. Himmler and von Schirach, among others gave him
written support when the 'Stu"rmer' was under threat of suppression. As an
anti-Semite, he was naturally not interested in describing the positive
characteristics and accomplishments of the Jewish people.....

"Back on the stand, Streicher admitted responsibility for all issues of
the 'Stu"rmer," including the the special numbers such as that devoted to
alleged Hebraic ritual murders. He also took occasion to embarrass and
insult his own attorney, and the court had to warn him that any further
insolence to the attorneys or to the court would require a termination of
his examination....

"AFTERNOON SESSION: Streicher continued to deny any connection with or
knowledge of the extermination of the Jews. The cross-examination by Mr.
Griffith-Jones slowly but surely tied up Streicher with knowledge of the
atrocities and persistence in advocating extermination even after it was
reported in the foreign press, which he admitted reading. Streicher kept
saying that even if he had read these things he would not have believed
it. He had spoken about exterminating the Jews but hadn't meant it
literally. [This produced a contemptuous reaction from Frank, who glared
at him during the intermission and hissed: 'The swine did not know
anything about the murders!- _I_ am the only one who knew anything about
it!- How can he lie under oath like that>- When I swear an oath by Holy
God Almighty- how can I tell a lie!! I seem to be the only one who knew
about it!']

"Streicher kept excusing himself for his incitement to extermination on
the grounds of literary license, retaliation for incitement in the foreign
press, etc.

"Finally, Mrs. Streicher testified that her husband was a nice man. The
prosecution did not bother to cross-examine her. (Ibid. pp.305-306.) 


"STREICHER: '...For his 25 years of speaking, writing, and preaching
hatred of the Jews, Streicher was widely known as 'Jew Baiter Number 1.'
In his speeches and articles, week after week, month after month, he
infected the German mind with the virus of anti-Semitism, and incited the
German people to active persecution ... Streicher had charge of the Jewish
boycott of April 1, 1933. He advocated the Nuremberg Decrees of 1935. He
was responsible for the demolition on August 10, 1938 of the synagogue in
Nuremberg. And on November 10, 1938, he spoke publicly in support of the
Jewish pogroms which were taking place at that time. But it was not only
in Germany that this defendant advocated his doctrines. As early as 1938
he began to call for the annihilation of the Jewish race ... With
knowledge of the extermination of the Jews in the Occupied Eastern
Territories, this defendant continued to write and publish his propaganda
of death ... Streicher's incitement to murder and extermination at the
time when Jews in the East were being killed under the most horrible
conditions clearly constitutes persecution on political and racial grounds
in connection with war crimes, as defined by the Charter, and constitutes
a crime against humanity.

"Verdict: GUILTY on count 4.
"Sentence: Death by hanging.

(Ibid. pp.442-443.) 

***

Streicher was executed by hanging on October 16, 1946. 


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Aug 30 13:59:01 PDT 1996
Article: 136992 of control
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel 
Control: cancel 
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 01:58:02 -0800
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cancel 


From mvanalst@rbi.com Fri Aug 30 15:38:58 PDT 1996
Article: 61111 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Request For Information 
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 11:33:43 -0800
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 61
Message-ID: 
References: <3225a5ff.1532846@news.pacificnet.net>,<3225c283.93375615@news.zilker.net> <506rcu$jug@news.cuny.edu> <32270865.7231260@news.pacificnet.net>
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In article <32270865.7231260@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) wrote:

> drobnicki@ycvax.york.cuny.edu wrote:
> 
> >In Article <3225c283.93375615@news.zilker.net>
> >mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) writes:
> >>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
> >>
> >>>                                     
> >       [snip]
> >>>     A leader of a Yugoslavian state said the Holocuast was a hoax.
> >>
> >>Who was this?
> >
> >Mr. Moran is most likely referring to Franjo Tudjman, Pres. of 
> >Croatia, whose book _Bespuca:  Povjesne Zbiljnosti_ (_Wastelands: 
> >Historical Truth_) questions the number of Jewish victims of the 
> >Holocaust.  However, it has been public knowledge for several 
> >years that Tudjman claimed the passage in the book was 
> >mistranslated, and even apologized for it.  See "Croatian Chief 
> >Sorry for Holocaust Views," _New York Times_, 15 Feb. 1994, sec. 
> >A, p. 12.  If I'm not mistaken, there was even a letter from the 
> >Croatian embassy published in an issue of the _Journal of 
> >Historical Review_ saying that Tudjman was _not_ a revisionist.  
> >But the revisionists, desperate to appear legitimate, continue to 
> >mistakenly cite Tudjman as "proof."
> >
> >John Drobnicki
> >Reference Librarian
> >York College/CUNY
> >"I speak for no one but myself."
> 
>         "Proof"? Proof of what?
> 
> Anyway, "mistranslated" or whatever, it was said.

And it was retracted. And apologized for. Your desperation, Moran, is
quite amusing. 

> Who knows if pressure wan't put on him by the U.S. to retract it. 

Oh, yes, the State Department has had so much influence with the Croation
government over the last several years.... Keep scraping at the bottom of
that barrel, Moran. 

> It seems people are always retracting statements they initially say about 
> Jewish things. 

And _some_ people, _Moran_, are _always_ sticking their _feet_ in their
_mouth_ when they talk about "Jewish things." (Hint, hint!) 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
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