---------------------------------------------------------- --
 Subject:  #456716-And the lies Continue! - Msg Number: 457265
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Mike Curtis 76711,3360
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  16-Feb-96  23:16:24

 ME >>And your explanation of the Babi Yar memorial is...?<<

 YOU >>  I've inquired about this Babi Yar site in other fora. As it stands,
 no one can provide any source of information other than Babi Yar being
 mentioned in some poem. This is hardly evidence of mass murder. It seems as
 though this Babi Yar legend originates from the same source that the
holocaust
 myth evolved from: a Jewish/Zionist controlled media. I have talked (over
 CompuServe) with a  former Ukrainian resident who says the whole ordeal is a
 publicity stunt. He  wouldn't finger the perpetrators, but said the whole
 thing of Nazis machine gunning Jews is a lie. Can you offer any source of
 information about this Babi Yar?>>

 MC:>>Perhaps we should begin with an SS report:<<

 Your "report" was of absolutely NO substance. I want facts on Babi Yar!!!!!
 Now stop beating around the bush and give them to me at once! If you want to
 substantiate your "legend" then I suggest you come forward with some facts.
 I'm sick and tired of being taken this way and then another on this Babi Yar.
 Now the Jews, and their supporters like you, claim that there was some
 dastardly act committed by the Germans against the Jews at this locale. All
 I've been able to come up with is some mention of this place in a poem by
some
 Jew or another. No facts at all. You want to speak of "reports" that offer
 nothing specific about this mass grave site. I want specifics. If this
 "atrocity" occurred as you and the Jews suggest then the evidence should be
 overwhelming. I demand some evidence, not your "Freudian" power of
suggestion.

 Cliff


 ---------------------------------------------------------- --
 Subject:  #456824-And the lies Continue! - Msg Number: 457267
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Mike Curtis 76711,3360
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  16-Feb-96  23:16:41

 Mike:

 Other: >> Joshua was commanded by God to exterminate the people of Jericho.
It
 was called a ban. <<

 MC:>> I distinguish this wiping out of a city-state form genocide.  Alexander
 wiped out Tyre(?) because he was very angry at the length he had to go
through
 to conquer it. The Roman wiped out Carthage for reasons other than race
 hatred. This activity of cleaning out an enemy was te norm in ancient
times.<<

 Just can't accept the fact that genocide is a Jewish tactic can you? Even
 Saul's "Christian" Bible points this out. Just had to shove it off on some
 non-Jew didn't you. 

 Cliff




 ---------------------------------------------------------- --
 Subject:  #456717-And the lies Continue! - Msg Number: 457266
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Mike Curtis 76711,3360
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  16-Feb-96  23:16:33

 Mike:


 >>Do you have evidence that this event did not occur?<< (this concerns the
 Wannsee Protocol)

 Is this the line of logic you choose to pursue? Well then, Jews, to this day,
 continue to kidnap young European White children (you often see them on milk
 cartons) and, while performing Satanic rituals upon them, drink their blood
in
 festive spirit! DO YOU HAVE EVIDENCE THAT THIS EVENT DID NOT OCCUR? Does your
 obtuse logic work in both directions???

 >>Do you have evidence that the document in question is a forgery?<<

 Do you have evidence that the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion is a
 forgery? Mike, I would not expect you to defend yourself in this manner. It
is
 representative of the theocracies of the Middle Ages. How on Earth can you
you
 execute such logic against us Germans and not apply it to yourself?

 >>I thought not. History is not determined on a single document,
 or even a single _set_ of documents. It is determined by the
 convergeance of evidence.<<

 What "evidence", Mike? All I've ever seen in my debates in the fora is pure
 testimony and conjecture. NO ONE has ever offered anything concrete. People
 like you are quick to indict the Germans on documents like the "Wannsee
 Protocol" but fail to see how similar documents can just as easily be used
 against Jews. Am I really that far out of line? I'm being very serious. You
 opt to cite a "document" that is unsigned, with no date, having no official
 imprint, and one that could have obviously been produced on any common
 typewriter of that time. Is this REALLY your idea of hard evidence?

 Cliff


 ---------------------------------------------------------- --
 Subject:  #456897-Jews and the Media - Msg Number: 457261
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Peter Jackson 72241,604
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  16-Feb-96  23:15:51

 Peter:

 >>Aaaachhhhh...  This is disgraceful. Freedom of speech means I have to watch
 you spout this stuff. But I don't have to like it; there's a wall, over
there,
 that will have some punch marks in it later on tonight.<<

 Well, if I'm going to make a fool of myself, why not just sit back and enjoy
 it? What harm can I do, right? Surely its a cinch to dispell all those who
 deny the holocaust. Why not toss in your two "red" cents and put me in my
 place. Or are you one of those types who has nothing to offer but empty name
 calling?

 Cliff


 ---------------------------------------------------------- --
 Subject:  #456753-Allied Crimes? Never! - Msg Number: 457264
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  HORST O. KLEINSORG 103512,2230
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  16-Feb-96  23:16:14

 Horst:

 >>This story came up in the 60's after it was proven that the ofens in the
 crematoria had indeed only a very limited capacity.<<

 The ovens were of design for that period of history. This is what really
 puzzles me about the "holocausters." They make all these ridiculous claims
 about cremation rates and have not one shred of evidence to back them up.
They
 depend on oral testimony, which is a farce when examined in detail, and the
 Jewish controlled media to support their argument. I'll hold my position:
 there is NOT ONE individual or group which can step forward in this forum and
 provide conclusive, scientific, mechanical evidence that the Germans had a
 "super-duper" crematoria capable of the rates alleged. Just you watch how
 those who want to challenge me attempt to divert the issue. Fact is, they
have
 no evidence. Fact is, several innocent German Nobels were murdered based upon
 hearsay and lies! We'll have our justice!

 >>The company which built the crematoria  for the SS is located in Kassel/
 Germany and had all the specs. and drawings. These specs etc. are now in
 possession of the Bundesarchiv in Koblenz (Federal Archive). They will not
 release them and find all kinds of excuses. You have to be a "registered and
 recognized" Historian and you have to state exactly the purpose for what you
 need them. This should speak for itself.<<

 Topf and Sons designed the Krema. And, they were of no special design. They
 were typical of circa 1940 crematoria. I'd like to see one of these
 "holocausters" come forward with some hard evidence that these crematoria
were
 something out of the ordinary. Well.........I'm waiting.

 CGS>>Pyres were indeed used for the incineration of German victims at Dresden
 for disease control<<<

 >>Pyres to burn airraid victims were not only used in Dresden. In my hometown
 Dortmund, after the October 6-44 airraid, we collected half charcoaled bodies
 and parts and burnt them on wooden pyres. The same happened in Wuppertal
after
 the firestorm air raid.<<

 Horst, we'll set things right in the end. The time is nigh.

 Cliff


 Subject:  #456896-Babi Yar - Msg Number: 457263
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Mike Curtis 76711,3360
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  16-Feb-96  23:16:03

 CGS>>Can you offer any source of information about this Babi Yar?>>

 >>There is a fairly detailed  photograph of the ditch  at Babi Yar filled
with
 bodies. It is from: _Nazi Crimes in the Ukraine_edited by V.N. Nenisov and
 G.I. Changiuli (Doctors of Law) c. 1987,  Academy of Sciences of the
Ukrainian
 SSR Institute of State and Law Naukova Gumka Publishers, Kiev  The photograph
 shows a group of about 15 people in civilian and military garb standing on
the
 edge of a long trench perhaps fifty feet or more in length. Lying in the
 trench are a great many bodies side-to-side and on top of numerous  other
 bodies. It is difficult to tell if the bodies are clothed or not but it is
 probable that they have some clothes on.  In the far background is what might
 be an identifiable landmark. It appears to be a large bridge over a ravine,
or
 part of a very large building.

 The text that accompanies the photograph reads:

 "The excavation of a grave in Babi Yar in Kiev where thousands of Soviet
 citizens had been shot by the Hitlerites, Kiev, 1944."

 The photo is identified as being No. 2-46031 from the Central State Archive
 of the Cine and Photodocuments of the Ukranian SSR.<<

 Give me a break. What if I showed you a photo of the same likeness and put a
 caption below it, "Zionist Jews Commit Genocide Against European White Males.
 Ditch Full of Those Who Used to Work to Subsidize Israel Via Extorted Taxes!"
 How gullible do you think people are these days?? Mike, the jig is up my good
 man! They only reason people like you think that this sort of charade can
 continue is based upon your continued trust in a Zionist controlled media. My
 goodness, do you really want to be one of the puppets left holding the bag???
 Get with it. Do you realize that even in Germany Simon Weisenthau is now
being
 exposed as a liar and a fraud? Wonder how many people are going to be upset
 when they finally discover that many innocent Germans went to their deaths
due
 to this Zionist Jew's lies!! Not to mention the millions and millions of
Reich
 marks each German has toiled for in order to support the Marxist state of
 Israel.

 Cliff


 ---------------------------------------------------------- --
 Subject:  #Holocaust Deniers-Why? - Msg Number: 457299
   From:  Aaron Nagano 72624,443
     To:  All
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  17-Feb-96  00:42:49

 To whom it may concern:

        After reading the incoherent garbage that the Neo-Nazi holocaust
 deniers spew, I am left with one important question.  Why do they go to such
 great lengths to make themselves and others believe that the most evil event
 in human history never occurred?  What do they have to gain for themselves?
 What is their purpose?

        If anyone out there has any insight, I would like to hear from you.

 Aaron Nagano

 There is 1 Reply.


 ---------------------------------------------------------- --
 Subject:  #457299-Holocaust Deniers-Why? - Msg Number: 457312
   From:  Mark Elbin 102113,1755
     To:  Aaron Nagano 72624,443
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  17-Feb-96  01:36:39

 Aaron,

 I think it has something to do with not being able to understand how their
own
 people could have done such a thing.  But if any of them have any b**ls (tell
 me if you need a
 translation) at all, they will come clean and answer your question
themselves.


 Mark


 ---------------------------------------------------------- --
 Subject:  Babi Yar - Msg Number: 457329
   From:  Barnett S. Lerner 75542,2043
     To:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  17-Feb-96  03:18:24

 "How gullible do you think people are these days?"


        Judging by the responses to you and to Herr Kleinsorg, a good deal
 less gullible than you hoped.

        BSL

 Subject:  #459058-Allied Crimes? Never! - Msg Number: 460687
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Frank Tansey[SEC] 76703,660
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  24-Feb-96  22:39:58

 Frank:

 CGS>"The facts: no credible cremation system or gassing system has ever been
    proven to have existed."<<

 >> WRONG!<<

 Then explain to me how the Nazis were able to cremate bodies in say 10
minutes
 or so with circa 1940 crematoria.


 CGS>>:"No mass graves of Jews has ever been discovered."<<

 >>WRONG!<<

 O.K., if I'm "WRONG" then prove it! Tell me where there is ONE documented mas
 grave full of Jews exterminated by the Nazis. Don't evade this one.

 Cliff

 Subject:  #459616-Allied Crimes? Never! - Msg Number: 460688
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Avner Bezborodko 70671,3511
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  24-Feb-96  22:40:06

 Avner:

 >>The evidence of what has happened is abundant, verified and convergent. You
 are welcome to question any facts and to research the evidence necessary to
 correct any mistakes, but to claim that it did not happen based on "common
 sense" in the face of overwhelming evidence is the act of someone who's
mental
 faculties are either damaged or is in classic denial of issues that run
 counter  to their own interests.<<

 Well then what's wrong with my logic? All I'm asking is that you holocaust
 mythologists support your wild claims that the Nazis could cremate bodies at
 the rates alleged. Look, Avner, I 'm not susceptible to unsubstantiated, wild
 claims. I don't care how much testimony, books, court documents, etc., you
 got. The Christians pulled this crap for centuries. They had lots of
 affidavits and confessions as relates to sorcery. There are are books and
 books about Christ's life and deeds, all patterned after the same fiction,
the
 Bible. So pease don't attempt your power of suggestion here, it won't work.
 I'm a man of science, not superstition and lore. Now you explain to me, in
 engineering terms, exactly how the Nazis were able to cremate Jews at
enormous
 rates. Go ahead and consult your mythologists if you so choose, but I'll
apply
 physics to their allegations and expose them for the magicians they are.

 Cliff

 Subject:  #459026-Allied Crimes? Never! - Msg Number: 460693
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  24-Feb-96  22:41:16

 Forrest for the Trees:

 >>Have you ever cooked meat on a grill?  Everyone who has knows what happens
 when the drippings fall in the fire: It flares up. If you aren't careful, the
 grease will catch fire and burn your steak to cinders . . .<<

 Well if this is so then there was no sense in those Nazis having to ladle the
 fat back over those Jews now was there? 

 Cliff

 Subject:  #459028-Allied Crimes? Never! - Msg Number: 460694
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Andrew George Stone 100304,1013
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  24-Feb-96  22:41:23

 Andrew:

 >>First of all the bodies were not necessarily in an emaciated state, that
 would only apply to the slaves.<<

 And you were there collecting data as to which bodies were "emaciated" and
 which were not prior to incineration.

 >>The brickwork of the building crumbled, and we are only talking about
100lbs
 of fat. 100 corpses will generate at least 500lbs of fat.<<

 They probably will. Assuming 15% body fat  and 150 pound corpses we're
talking
 2250 pounds.

 >>The book 'Babi Yar' by A Anatoli (I think) was published about 10  years
ago
 I had a copy and will try to find out more. I think it was published in
 paperback by Sphere.<<

 I'd appreciate any info you can provide.

 Cliff

 Subject:  #459182-Allied Crimes? Never! - Msg Number: 460695
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  George Minde 70550,623
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  24-Feb-96  22:41:31

 George:

 >>These were not modern crematoria. Nor were they crematoria which handled
 only a single body at a time. Thus the thermodynamics are a bit different.<<

 Please explain. These are the details I'm looking for.

 CGS <>
  <>

 >>You apparently have been deprived of experiencing cooking outdoors or over
a
 large grill, or you would most likely be able to better grasp the
mechanics.<<

 The mechanics are one thing; the thermodynamics are another. First, its been
 alleged that the Nazis some how collected this fat and did indeed pour it
over
 the bodies. Why? According to your thermodynamic "grilling" the dripping fat
 will somehow catch fire and incinerate the corpse.  Just what was this
 arrangement of ladling Jewish fat the Nazis wasted their time on? Second, I
 don't care whether the fat "drips" or not, nor do thermodynamic processes. A
 body "X" contains "X" amount of BTUs. Energy can only be transformed, it
 cannot be created. And during transformation there is always loss (unless
 those Nazis also broke the laws of physics). An average body takes a certain
 amount of heat and time to cremate including any combustible matter it may
 contain.

 Cliff

 Subject:  #458978-And the lies Continue! - Msg Number: 460690
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Mike Curtis 76711,3360
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  24-Feb-96  22:40:56

 Mike:

 CGS >> This about says it all. In the end, you provided nothing. <<

 >>Are (you) swatting away all that information, or are you waving around
 trying to get it all too buzz off?

 All I'm saying is that you provided a lot of "reference" and then admit, in
 the end, that very little is actually mentioned about Babi Yar, let alone the
 alleged incident at Babi Yar. Sort of like providing me me with reference to
 an world atlas and saying, "See! There it is! Babi Yar" which proves nothing
 of the allegation. Why don't you just give me a hard-hitting, detailed
account
 of just what exactly happened at Babi Yar. Is this asking to much?

 Cliff

 Subject:  #459010-And the lies Continue! - Msg Number: 460691
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  24-Feb-96  22:41:03

 CGS>>What facts!? More people saying it happened?

 >>The fact that witnesses report that something has happened is usually
 considered pretty good evidence . . . good enough for a court of law.<<

 Well then there were indeed witches who fornicated with the devil in the
 1600s. Also, if enough Christians petition "the court" and testify that there
 is only one god, theirs of course, then it should become historical fact,
 right? Forrest, there are a lot of illogical idiots in the fora of
CompuServe,
 beware.

 Regards,

 Cliff

 Subject:  #459033-And the lies Continue! - Msg Number: 460692
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  24-Feb-96  22:41:11

 Forrest:

 >>You're an engineer?<<

 No, I'm an engineering technician.


 >>Consider the circumstances: In a modern crematorium, it is necessary to
heat
 the whole crematorium for each individual corpse.  You stick in a corpse and
 turn on the gas.  After some hours, the corpse has been reduced to ashes; you
 take them out and stick them in a jar which you give to the family.<<

 What you are alluding to here is that a modern crematoria makes a cold start
 for each corpse. Do you know this to be true, or are you theorizing? I've
 written to a local crematoria TWICE with this question and cannot seem to get
 an answer. Can you validate your point here? I'm very interested since I find
 it hard to believe a crematory would shut down and cool off to ambient air
 temperature before cremating another corpse.

 >>Look at the blueprints for the Auschwitz crematoria and you'll see
something
 different: Five furnaces with three ovens each.<<

 You better look again. In the spring of 1944 Auschwitz-Birkenau had 46
retorts
 available. Each capable of holding one corpse for cremation.

 Cliff

 Subject:  #459049-Jews and the Media - Msg Number: 460696
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  24-Feb-96  22:41:38

 Forrest:

 I read the "affidavit". It was quite ridiculous. Do you expect to sway others
 by posting such nonsense and labeling it "Affidavit such-and-such from the
 Nuremberg Trials"? Forrest, affidavits are nothing more than a persons STORY
 taken under "oath". That's all! The formality of the document may or may not
 lend anything to the truth. Am I out of line? Do I belong in a different era?
 Am I a minority with my logic? What is it you'd have me do, accept all that
 the establishment (and its pundits like you) serve up even though your
 propaganda is lacking in suggestion and logical deduction? Maybe you'd have
me
 set down with an ice cold mug of hemlock and discuss the issue?

 Cliff

 Subject:  #459730-Allied Crimes? Never! - Msg Number: 460698
   Fr
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  24-Feb-96  22:41:54

 Hallo Horst:

 Ich war Krank, besser nur!

 Horst, it is practically impossible to get people to understand that inmates
 were actually a commodity to the SS. Certainly those SS personnel who
 mistreated inmates were summarily prosecuted. In fact, some were even
executed
 by the Nazis for mistreating prisoners. The Jews, with their media,  have
cast
 a spell of lies surrounding the functions of the SS which was actually an arm
 of the German government to be honored and respected.

 Cliff

 Subject:  Allied Crimes, never - Msg Number: 460689
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  24-Feb-96  22:40:30

 Manfred:

 >>Most people, believing in the holocaust, are like the Christians of days
 gone by (and today as well), they'd rather die than excepting FACTS.  To
them,
 the LORD ascended to heaven, no ifs and butts about it. The Lord said it, and
 I believe it.   The emphasis is on 'believing' NOT on factual knowing.<<

 Maybe I expect to much? I saw a program on television last night where an
 individual named Randi (his surname, BTW) has disproved every claim of
 supernatural power to date. He has even offered a $10,000 prize to anyone who
 can demonstrate such power. In this segment, there was a Christian preacher
 who seemed to know intimate details of his studio audiences' lives. While
 conducting his sermon, he would call out an individual's name and reveal
 certain things that were troubling that person. The person would then march
to
 the front of the stage where the minister would "pray" and exercise some
 "supernatural" power and by placing his hand upon the person's forehead,
 thrust him to the floor. Well, this Randi exposed the man as a fraud.
 Apparently his wife had the audience participants fill out a questionnaire
and
 asked them to mention anything that was troubling them. Then, by use of a
 microphone concealed within the "Christian preacher's" ear she would direct
 him who to call on with all the details. However, even after exposing the man
 as a fraud, he was back on TV a short time later pulling the same stunt with
a
 plentiful "flock." Randi (the one who exposed the fraud) said , with some
 people it is no use attempting to deal with them in a logical manner.
 "Believers" cannot be convinced otherwise, he said. No amount of scientific
 data, logic or common sense will deter their belief. And that is what we are
 dealing with as concerns the holocaust myth. These people are hard-core
 believers in this thing. No amount of evidence, science, logic, or common
 sense will change their mind.

 During the TV program I'm referring to here the reporter queried Randi as to
 what harm there was in people opting to belive in this or that even if
 evidence suggested there was nothing supporting it. Randi responded,  in so
 many words, as saying that he felt there was something inherently wrong when
 individuals relied upon nonsense for guidance, decision making, etc. That's
 what we are dealing with, in some cases, over this holocaust lie. Some
 obviously do it for racial-political reasons (and we can't blame them for
 this) but many simply choose to believe in the lie in light of the facts.

 Cliff

 Subject:  #459616-Allied Crimes? Never! - Msg Number: 460688
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Avner Bezborodko 70671,3511
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  24-Feb-96  22:40:06

 Avner:

 >>The evidence of what has happened is abundant, verified and convergent. You
 are welcome to question any facts and to research the evidence necessary to
 correct any mistakes, but to claim that it did not happen based on "common
 sense" in the face of overwhelming evidence is the act of someone who's
mental
 faculties are either damaged or is in classic denial of issues that run
 counter  to their own interests.<<

 Well then what's wrong with my logic? All I'm asking is that you holocaust
 mythologists support your wild claims that the Nazis could cremate bodies at
 the rates alleged. Look, Avner, I 'm not susceptible to unsubstantiated, wild
 claims. I don't care how much testimony, books, court documents, etc., you
 got. The Christians pulled this crap for centuries. They had lots of
 affidavits and confessions as relates to sorcery. There are are books and
 books about Christ's life and deeds, all patterned after the same fiction,
the
 Bible. So pease don't attempt your power of suggestion here, it won't work.
 I'm a man of science, not superstition and lore. Now you explain to me, in
 engineering terms, exactly how the Nazis were able to cremate Jews at
enormous
 rates. Go ahead and consult your mythologists if you so choose, but I'll
apply
 physics to their allegations and expose them for the magicians they are.

 Cliff

 Subject:  #459026-Allied Crimes? Never! - Msg Number: 460693
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  24-Feb-96  22:41:16

 Forrest for the Trees:

 >>Have you ever cooked meat on a grill?  Everyone who has knows what happens
 when the drippings fall in the fire: It flares up. If you aren't careful, the
 grease will catch fire and burn your steak to cinders . . .<<

 Well if this is so then there was no sense in those Nazis having to ladle the
 fat back over those Jews now was there? 

 Cliff

 Subject:  #459028-Allied Crimes? Never! - Msg Number: 460694
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Andrew George Stone 100304,1013
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  24-Feb-96  22:41:23

 Andrew:

 >>First of all the bodies were not necessarily in an emaciated state, that
 would only apply to the slaves.<<

 And you were there collecting data as to which bodies were "emaciated" and
 which were not prior to incineration.

 >>The brickwork of the building crumbled, and we are only talking about
100lbs
 of fat. 100 corpses will generate at least 500lbs of fat.<<

 They probably will. Assuming 15% body fat  and 150 pound corpses we're
talking
 2250 pounds.

 >>The book 'Babi Yar' by A Anatoli (I think) was published about 10  years
ago
 I had a copy and will try to find out more. I think it was published in
 paperback by Sphere.<<

 I'd appreciate any info you can provide.

 Cliff

 Subject:  #459182-Allied Crimes? Never! - Msg Number: 460695
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  George Minde 70550,623
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  24-Feb-96  22:41:31

 George:

 >>These were not modern crematoria. Nor were they crematoria which handled
 only a single body at a time. Thus the thermodynamics are a bit different.<<

 Please explain. These are the details I'm looking for.

 CGS <>
  <>

 >>You apparently have been deprived of experiencing cooking outdoors or over
a
 large grill, or you would most likely be able to better grasp the
mechanics.<<

 The mechanics are one thing; the thermodynamics are another. First, its been
 alleged that the Nazis some how collected this fat and did indeed pour it
over
 the bodies. Why? According to your thermodynamic "grilling" the dripping fat
 will somehow catch fire and incinerate the corpse.  Just what was this
 arrangement of ladling Jewish fat the Nazis wasted their time on? Second, I
 don't care whether the fat "drips" or not, nor do thermodynamic processes. A
 body "X" contains "X" amount of BTUs. Energy can only be transformed, it
 cannot be created. And during transformation there is always loss (unless
 those Nazis also broke the laws of physics). An average body takes a certain
 amount of heat and time to cremate including any combustible matter it may
 contain.

 Cliff

 Subject:  #458978-And the lies Continue! - Msg Number: 460690
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Mike Curtis 76711,3360
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  24-Feb-96  22:40:56

 Mike:

 CGS >> This about says it all. In the end, you provided nothing. <<

 >>Are (you) swatting away all that information, or are you waving around
 trying to get it all too buzz off?

 All I'm saying is that you provided a lot of "reference" and then admit, in
 the end, that very little is actually mentioned about Babi Yar, let alone the
 alleged incident at Babi Yar. Sort of like providing me me with reference to
 an world atlas and saying, "See! There it is! Babi Yar" which proves nothing
 of the allegation. Why don't you just give me a hard-hitting, detailed
account
 of just what exactly happened at Babi Yar. Is this asking to much?

 Cliff

 Subject:  #459010-And the lies Continue! - Msg Number: 460691
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  24-Feb-96  22:41:03

 CGS>>What facts!? More people saying it happened?

 >>The fact that witnesses report that something has happened is usually
 considered pretty good evidence . . . good enough for a court of law.<<

 Well then there were indeed witches who fornicated with the devil in the
 1600s. Also, if enough Christians petition "the court" and testify that there
 is only one god, theirs of course, then it should become historical fact,
 right? Forrest, there are a lot of illogical idiots in the fora of
CompuServe,
 beware.

 Regards,

 Cliff

 Subject:  #459033-And the lies Continue! - Msg Number: 460692
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  24-Feb-96  22:41:11

 Forrest:

 >>You're an engineer?<<

 No, I'm an engineering technician.


 >>Consider the circumstances: In a modern crematorium, it is necessary to
heat
 the whole crematorium for each individual corpse.  You stick in a corpse and
 turn on the gas.  After some hours, the corpse has been reduced to ashes; you
 take them out and stick them in a jar which you give to the family.<<

 What you are alluding to here is that a modern crematoria makes a cold start
 for each corpse. Do you know this to be true, or are you theorizing? I've
 written to a local crematoria TWICE with this question and cannot seem to get
 an answer. Can you validate your point here? I'm very interested since I find
 it hard to believe a crematory would shut down and cool off to ambient air
 temperature before cremating another corpse.

 >>Look at the blueprints for the Auschwitz crematoria and you'll see
something
 different: Five furnaces with three ovens each.<<

 You better look again. In the spring of 1944 Auschwitz-Birkenau had 46
retorts
 available. Each capable of holding one corpse for cremation.

 Cliff

 Subject:  #459049-Jews and the Media - Msg Number: 460696
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  24-Feb-96  22:41:38

 Forrest:

 I read the "affidavit". It was quite ridiculous. Do you expect to sway others
 by posting such nonsense and labeling it "Affidavit such-and-such from the
 Nuremberg Trials"? Forrest, affidavits are nothing more than a persons STORY
 taken under "oath". That's all! The formality of the document may or may not
 lend anything to the truth. Am I out of line? Do I belong in a different era?
 Am I a minority with my logic? What is it you'd have me do, accept all that
 the establishment (and its pundits like you) serve up even though your
 propaganda is lacking in suggestion and logical deduction? Maybe you'd have
me
 set down with an ice cold mug of hemlock and discuss the issue?

 Cliff

 Subject:  #459730-Allied Crimes? Never! - Msg Number: 460698
   Fr
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  24-Feb-96  22:41:54

 Hallo Horst:

 Ich war Krank, besser nur!

 Horst, it is practically impossible to get people to understand that inmates
 were actually a commodity to the SS. Certainly those SS personnel who
 mistreated inmates were summarily prosecuted. In fact, some were even
executed
 by the Nazis for mistreating prisoners. The Jews, with their media,  have
cast
 a spell of lies surrounding the functions of the SS which was actually an arm
 of the German government to be honored and respected.

 Cliff

 Subject:  Allied Crimes, never - Msg Number: 460689
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  24-Feb-96  22:40:30

 Manfred:

 >>Most people, believing in the holocaust, are like the Christians of days
 gone by (and today as well), they'd rather die than excepting FACTS.  To
them,
 the LORD ascended to heaven, no ifs and butts about it. The Lord said it, and
 I believe it.   The emphasis is on 'believing' NOT on factual knowing.<<

 Maybe I expect to much? I saw a program on television last night where an
 individual named Randi (his surname, BTW) has disproved every claim of
 supernatural power to date. He has even offered a $10,000 prize to anyone who
 can demonstrate such power. In this segment, there was a Christian preacher
 who seemed to know intimate details of his studio audiences' lives. While
 conducting his sermon, he would call out an individual's name and reveal
 certain things that were troubling that person. The person would then march
to
 the front of the stage where the minister would "pray" and exercise some
 "supernatural" power and by placing his hand upon the person's forehead,
 thrust him to the floor. Well, this Randi exposed the man as a fraud.
 Apparently his wife had the audience participants fill out a questionnaire
and
 asked them to mention anything that was troubling them. Then, by use of a
 microphone concealed within the "Christian preacher's" ear she would direct
 him who to call on with all the details. However, even after exposing the man
 as a fraud, he was back on TV a short time later pulling the same stunt with
a
 plentiful "flock." Randi (the one who exposed the fraud) said , with some
 people it is no use attempting to deal with them in a logical manner.
 "Believers" cannot be convinced otherwise, he said. No amount of scientific
 data, logic or common sense will deter their belief. And that is what we are
 dealing with as concerns the holocaust myth. These people are hard-core
 believers in this thing. No amount of evidence, science, logic, or common
 sense will change their mind.

 During the TV program I'm referring to here the reporter queried Randi as to
 what harm there was in people opting to belive in this or that even if
 evidence suggested there was nothing supporting it. Randi responded,  in so
 many words, as saying that he felt there was something inherently wrong when
 individuals relied upon nonsense for guidance, decision making, etc. That's
 what we are dealing with, in some cases, over this holocaust lie. Some
 obviously do it for racial-political reasons (and we can't blame them for
 this) but many simply choose to believe in the lie in light of the facts.

 Cliff

From server  Wed Feb 28 22:33:25 1996
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 -------------------------------------------------
 FORWARDED MESSAGE - Orig: 28-Feb-96  15:41:18
 Subject: #461636-Allied Crimes, never - Msg Number #462399
    From: Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
      To: Manfred Koch 73743,130
   Forum: MILFORUM  Section: 14 - Coffee Shop
 -------------------------------------------------

 Manfred:

 I think there are some out there who truly believe in the holocaust. I'm sure
they are quite taken when first becoming exposed to those who declare it to be
a fraud. I know I was since I used to sincerely believe in the holocaust
myself. Those who believe, due to Zionist media control and other sources,
will eventually challenge the holocaust themselves if they continue to study
the subject in depth. But, I'm convinced that there are quite a number (many
you and spar with in this forum) who know the holocaust is a myth but defend
it for racial and political reasons. I don't blame them one bit for this. They
are doing what they must to protect their interests and agenda. All we must do
is continue to expose their mistruths and nature will take its course. The
holocaust myth is crashing down around them. An edifice that has served them
well for decades. Its not something they want to lose, understandably. Keep up
the good work. BTW, do you live in South Dakota?

 Cliff

  E-mail from: Mike Curtis, 28-Feb-1996


From compuserve.com!76711.3360  Wed Feb 28 14:24:52 1996
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Date: 28 Feb 96 17:12:30 EST
From: Mike Curtis <76711.3360@compuserve.com>
To: ken McVay 
Subject: Swiger
Message-ID: <960228221229_76711.3360_FHD62-4@CompuServe.COM>
Status: RO

------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #461725-Allied Crimes? Never! - Msg Number: 462396
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  28-Feb-96  15:40:49

Forrest:

>>Aside from the design specifications of the manufacturer, and the original
blueprints (which you can see on page 66 of _Auschwitz, A History in
Photographs_),<<

So fill me in on these "design specifications". I have my own set of drawings
on the Krema both from Jewish sources and Revisionist. But, plan views reveal
nothing about the actual operation. All the evidence I have indicates the
Krema at Auschwitz-Birkenau were nothing out of the ordinary for circa 1940
crematoria. At least three individuals have conducted forensic examinations at
the site and made the same determination. Convergence, if it pleases you.

Things just do not mesh in this operation. I've have some photographs of the
retorts at Auschwitz-Birkenau and I agree with the findings of those who
conducted examinations there. Each retort was capable of handling one corpse.
We hear "testimony" that the Nazis stuffed up to three Jews, in the proper
proportions, in each retort. But this contradicts the design parameters. I've
heard it mentioned that the Nazis may have blended various kinds coke (?) to
achieve higher efficiencies but unless someone can come up with the particular
super-duper coke, the maximum temperature would be about 1600 degrees
Fahrenheit. 1400 is more practical. Modern crematoria operate at about 2000
degrees and take about 1.5 hours to cremate a corpse. I've heard the argument
about cold starts verses hot run conditions but no one has offered proof that
modern crematoria cool down to ambient temperature before cremating another
corpse. I have written twice to a crematoria and asked this question
specifically. Unfortunately, I've received no answer. I'm going attempt to
locate another which might solve the enigma.

So exactly how did the Nazis achieve such astronomical cremation rates based
upon the design parameters you mention here?

Cliff



------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #461868-Allied Crimes? Never! - Msg Number: 462397
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Mike Curtis 76711,3360
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  28-Feb-96  15:41:09

Mike:

>>Okay, we'll take you at your word.

   Konnilyn Feig provides an overview of the operation of the
   crematoria, ....http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?camps/auschwitz/au
schwitz.01
   See auschwitz/auschwitz.01<<

I'm not the best at navigating the "Web", but I'm going to access this site
and retrieve some text. I've managed to do this at other sites, if I'm able to
get in.

>>In essence, well-nourished corpses were burned with emaciated ones in order
to determine the most efficient combination. Three to four bodies were burned
at a time, and different kinds of coke were used,
then the results were recorded:<<

Come on, Mike. According to stolid holocausters the Nazis had all kinds of
unproven operations for cremating Jews. Like this one from Sigismund Bendel:
"Thick black smoke ascends from the pits. It all happens so quickly and is so
unimaginable that I think I am dreaming.......An HOUR (my emphasis) later
everything is back to normal. The men take the ashes out of the pits and make
a pile."

A dream indeed! Here we have the Nazis burning Jews in open pits and reducing
them, bones and all, to ashes in an hour! Impossible, and you know it. Then
you want me to believe that the Nazis sorted through piles of corpses stacking
them in groups of three: one woman, one man and one child for incineration in
the crematory. Now think about how fast this sorting process would have had to
have been to achieve the alleged rates of 12,000 Jews per day. What did the
Nazis do, que them up after sorting them accordingly, and then make a run at
it to set a  world record? Why go to all that trouble when they could just
toss them in the pit and char them to ashes in one hour?

>>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/m/mueller.f ilip
  Mueller, 60-61; Klarsfield, 99-100<<

Klarsfeld? Isn't this the joker who printed and distributed that Pressac
fellow's book? I'll check the Web site for a good laugh. The Revisionists
destroyed Pressac.


     >>But the well-constructed crematoria fell far
      behind at a number of camps, and especially at Auschwitz in
      1944.  In August the total cremation reached a peak one day of
      24,000, but still a bottleneck occurred.  Camp authorities
      needed an economic and fast method of corpse disposal, so they
      again dug six huge pits beside Crematorium Five and reopened old
      pits in the wood.<<

You still expect me to believe it takes less time to cremate bodies (to total
ash) in a pit as opposed to a crematory?

      >>Thus, late in 1944, pit burning became the
      chief method of corpse disposal.  The pits had indentations at
      one end from which human fat drained off.  To keep the pits
      burning, the stokers poured oil, alcohol, and large quantities
      of boiling human fat over the bodies."<<

This is so ridiculous. The pits are said to have been about 20 feet deep.
However, the water table at Auschwitz-Birkenau is about 2 to 3 feet below the
ground! Then you add here that the pits were yet a bit deeper so as to drain
out the fat! Plus, something had to catch this "boiling" fat and convey it up
out of the trench, over the burning area of the pit, and discharge it back
down over the burning Jews! Can you imagine such a contraption? And why was it
necessary? Heck, old Bendel saw Jews reduced to ashes (bones and all) in about
an hour without this "device". At least he never mentioned it, and surely he
would have.

Cliff



------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #461731-And the lies Continue! - Msg Number: 462402
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  28-Feb-96  15:41:47

Forrest:

CGS>>I remember reading one section in particular where two Russians are being
subjected to some sort of cold water test by a Nazi doctor (rubbish of
course). Anyway, there was a fairly detailed dialog between these two Russians
as they bobbed in ice water. After reading the crap, I couldn't help but
wonder how Shirer knew exactly what they said.<<

>>Here is the section you refer to.  It is a quotation from the testimony of
Walter Neff, a prisoner who served as a medical orderly to SS Dr. Rascher:<<

Testimony from a prisoner of the Nazis? Jeshua! You've doubled your trouble
here! Now just how trustworthy is the testimony of a criminal against his
incarcerator? You see what I mean, Forrest. You don't examine the things you
want to believe in with sound logic.

Cliff


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #461191- The Holocaust - Not I - Msg Number: 462394
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Mike Curtis 76711,3360
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  28-Feb-96  15:40:28

Mike:

> =Auschwitz  Myths  and  Facts=
> by Mark Weber

MC>> Ah, yes, Mr. Weber... the link between continental Holocaust
deniers and German Nazis. A truly, er, unbiased source!<<

Oh I get it. Its O.K. for a fanatical Zionist to quote sources from the Simon
"Lies"enthau Center. Such hypocrisy.

Cliff


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #461719-And the lies Continue! - Msg Number: 462405
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  28-Feb-96  15:42:11

Forrest:

>>The corpses were burnt to ashes, according to the testimony. What kind of
"forensic evidence" do you want?<<

How about the site of ash pile where a forensic examination has been
conducted. There had to be tons and tons of ashes. My father was cremated. The
crematory mailed his ashes back in a box along with his pulverized bones. I'd
say the thing weighed close to three pounds. Even if we figure on only 3
million Jews cremated this would equal 4500 tons of ash.

>>I don't believe that anyone disputes that Jesus was a historical person.<<

Well I do.

>>You can cast doubt on the Gospels: After all, they were written 2,000 years
ago by some devoted followers of his.  If you doubt the miracles, etc., that's
fine, it comes down to a matter of faith.  But it would be absurd to claim
that Jesus never existed.<<

Another one of those "prove that he didn't exist" arguments, eh. You're good
at that.

>>However, you do doubt that the mass murder of the Jews by the Nazi
government of Germany during WWII ever happened. For this event, there are
many thousands of individual accounts, mountains of documents, a wealth of
physical evidence, plus confessions of some of the chief malefactors.<<

Testimony again? "Court" proceedings which permitted affidavits from
individuals who were never available for cross examination and also permitted
hearsay evidence in criminal prosecutions. These are your "documents". What
"physical evidence"? So the Nazis had crematories for disposing of the dead.
Does this validate your holocaust? What other physical evidence can you cite?
Fertilizer? Jew soap? Lampshades?

>>Though I am a Christian, I would be more inclined to doubt the existence of
Jesus than to doubt the Holocaust; the historical evidence for the latter is
much, much stronger.<<

I think the fact that you admit to believe in ghosts (holy and unholy) speaks
for itself. How childish.

Cliff



------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #461714-And the lies Continue! - Msg Number: 462403
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  28-Feb-96  15:41:59

Forrest:

CGS>>You "recall" having see it on TV. Not much of a source upon which to base
your argument, don't you agree?

>>I should say that having seen modern crematoria operated on TV is a lot
better than not having seen them at all, which is apparently your position.<<

This isn't the point. I've never seen electricity, but I know it exists and I
understand how it is used and its properties. Its true I've never seen a
crematory on TV, but with my background in science I think I have a general
understanding of their operation. I'm certainly open to those who theorize the
Nazis had crematory designs capable of out doing state of the art technology.

>>But, I can tell you that we pull hot coal ashes out of steam boilers that
have operating temperatures around 1000 degrees F. Its not that difficult.
Conveyor belts easily do the job or they (the ashes) can be sluiced with
water.<<

>>You use a water sluice in a 1000-degree F furace?  Hmmm . . .<<

Once again, you read what you want to read don't you? Just like you believe
what you want to believe. The boilers have operating temperatures near 1000
degrees, but its in the superheated section of the boiler. The bottom ash
falls into the pits where the temperatures are actually quite cool. Why must
you twist logic? What is your agenda, your point in all this? Obviously you
know nothing about coal fired boiler operation but you just had to try to make
me look like a fool. Why?

>>In any case, a crematorium is different from a coal furnace, in that is
important to collect the ashes of the corpse and also to keep them separate
from the fuel.<<

Modern crematories apply a direct flame application to the corpse. In this
respect, the heating medium IS NOT separated from the body. And yes, the ashes
are collected and shipped to the relatives of the deceased in most cases. But
what in the Hell does this have to do with the alleged cremation of the Jews
by the Nazis?? Why would they be so concerned about keeping the ashes separate
from the fuel? What were they going to do with them? Stuff the ashes into the
pockets of the next victim and say, "Here's your uncle, Morry Goldstein, now
hop in the gas chamber!"

Cliff


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #461709-Jews and the Media - Msg Number: 462401
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  28-Feb-96  15:41:39

Forrest:

CGS>>I've got no problem with court testimony. But just because such testimony
is entered into the record does not validate the testimony's content. Does
this not make sense to you?<<

>>If you are suggesting the fact that statements are given in sworn testimony
is no indication of whether or they are true, I must say that, no, it does not
make any sense. Sworn testimony is evidence.  You can dispute the evidence, if
you wish.  You must, however, give some grounds for doing so.<<

Testimony is "evidence" but does not always contain truth. This is what I was
pointing out. Its important to understand that in criminal prosecutions
hearsay testimony is INADMISSIBLE in any respectable court of law. But what
happened at the IMTs? Affidavits were admitted into the record, WITHOUT THE
WITNESS EVER HAVING TO APPEAR IN COURT FOR CROSS EXAMINATION! Hearsay evidence
was also admitted! Anyway, I agree that a good defense attorney will expose
such fallacious testimony for the lie it is. But, at the IMTs THE DEFENSE WAS
NEVER AFFORDED THE OPPORTUNITY!! Then, people like you just love to point at
such "court" documents as hard, proven evidence against the accused! It makes
me sick to my stomach to think that innocent, nobel, German officers were
imprisoned and put to death by such Draconian practices. One day real justice
will be served.

>>I do not automatically accept anything.  The fact that an SS doctor kept a
diary, however, is evidence.  Do you dispute this evidence?  If so, give your
grounds.<<

But you just proved you do indeed automatically accept things for truth but
expect someone else to DISPROVE that which you opt to believe. Forrest, when
people are going to be sentenced to death based upon the things you mention
here, the burden of proof is on the accuser. Even if a man signs a statement
saying he did this thing or that thing, the state still requires conclusive
evidence. What if I signed a statement saying I killed John F. Kennedy. Would
you believe me? Why not, I confessed didn't I? Even though I was only 4 years
old at the time this makes no difference if you apply the same logic to me
that you do toward Nazi "confessions" and hearsay court documents admitted in
criminal prosecutions! I'm appalled by all this. I worry about which way
Western man is heading when examining logic such as yours.

Cliff


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #461637-Allied Crimes? Never! - Msg Number: 462395
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  28-Feb-96  15:40:38

Manfred:

>>If you were to take your blinders off,  you would realize that it is against
the law in Germany to speak against government indoctrinated philosophies,
expressing sympathy with the 3. Reich or to be a Holocaust-agnostic.  So, what
good is your observation???  And as far as the German masses are concerned,
they are under the controll of occupation forces and 'licensed' media.<<

I have a relative who is currently living in Germany. Before he left for this
country, with his German wife, we discussed some topics. He was skeptical when
I told him certain things about WW2, the holocaust, etc. I instructed him not
to speak of these truths when he stepped foot on "German" soil. Since that
time, he has returned to the US a couple of times. And, we talked again of
those forbidden truths. He tells me that in private circles, out of the public
realm, true Germans DO talk. They know the score, and would like to settle it,
but fear of incarceration prevents them from speaking out in public. He says
Germany is a time bomb ready to explode.

Cliff


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #461720-Allied Crimes? Never! - Msg Number: 462406
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  28-Feb-96  15:42:19

Forrest:

CGS>>Horst is right on track here. Have you ever read Primo Levi's book,
"Survival in Auschwitz"?<<

>>"Horst is on the right track?"  Here is what the Klein memoir, which he
cited as evidence, said about the gassings:........

Horst cited this memoir, so he apparently thinks it is good evidence. You
agree that Horst "is on the right track," but you deny that the gassings took
place.  You do not dispute the evidence that Horst has presented, but you
refer me instead to a book by Primo Levi, which no one here has offered as
evidence. This is an obvious evasion.<<

What is your problem, Forrest? I swear I think you're sliding off the deep
end. Horst made reference to the fact that the inmates at Auschwitz played
soccer and attended orchestras. You, and perhaps another, challenged him on
this if I recall correctly. I simply provided a reference that supported
Horst's assertion. I mean geesh, I went to a Jew bookstore, bought a Jew book
by a Jew who was a prisoner at Auschwitz who makes reference to soccer, boxing
and orchestras at Auschwitz. What's the matter, got a problem with the truth?
Let me try your tactic here, if I may: OH BOO HOO, prove they DIDN'T play ball
and have orchestras at Auschwitz! How'ya like it?!

Cliff


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #462199-The Holocaust - NOT! - Msg Number: 462404
   From:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
     To:  Andrew George Stone 100304,1013
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  28-Feb-96  15:42:01

>>What is wrong with an investigation if you have nothing to hide? What is
there to deny? Do you see where these questions lead?

        So far as the historical facts are concerned, they have already been
investigated in great detail.  They're in the history books for anyone who
wants to read them.  One may dispute the numbers, but no one is denying what
happened:

        The most reliable estimates put deaths of German POWs in American
custody at around 1% or 2% of those detained.  Certainly, this figure is much
too high, and includes thousands of Germans who would have survived if given
adequate food, shelter and medical care. Those responsible, however, have the
excuse of being overwhelmed by millions of prisoners who surrendered in mass
in 1945.

        It is strange that you seem more interested in these deaths than in
the murder of millions of innocent civilians by the Nazis, which Swiger,
Kleinsorg and Koch are stubbornly denying. This strikes me as an argument by
recrimination.  Perhaps you have some connection with these gentlemen?


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #461636-Allied Crimes, never - Msg Number: 462399
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  28-Feb-96  15:41:18

Manfred:

I think there are some out there who truly believe in the holocaust. I'm sure
they are quite taken when first becoming exposed to those who declare it to be
a fraud. I know I was since I used to sincerely believe in the holocaust
myself. Those who believe, due to Zionist media control and other sources,
will eventually challenge the holocaust themselves if they continue to study
the subject in depth. But, I'm convinced that there are quite a number (many
you and spar with in this forum) who know the holocaust is a myth but defend
it for racial and political reasons. I don't blame them one bit for this. They
are doing what they must to protect their interests and agenda. All we must do
is continue to expose their mistruths and nature will take its course. The
holocaust myth is crashing down around them. An edifice that has served them
well for decades. Its not something they want to lose, understandably. Keep up
the good work. BTW, do you live in South Dakota?

Cliff


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #461805-The Holocaust - Not III - Msg Number: 462407
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Mike Curtis 76711,3360
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  28-Feb-96  15:42:35

Mike:

>> I believe I've asked Swiger for his definition
of "evidence," but I haven't seen a response yet.<<

Evidence: proof, either written or unwritten, of allegations at issue between
parties. It may be (a) direct or indirect, which latter includes
circumstantial evidence; (b) substantive, directed to proof of a distinct
fact, or corroborative, in support of previous evidence; (c) intrinsic,
internal, or extrinsic, not derived from anything to be found in the document
itself; (d) original or derivative, which passes through some channel, parol,
as opposed to original documents or evidence.

>>1. Does he (Swiger) reject all Nazi documentation?<<

No.

>>2. Does he accept some, but not all?<<

Yes.

>>3. What criteria are used?<<

This is a bit to broad.

<>

>>This is an easy one - Krema I was employed as a bomb-shelter, and then
restored following the war. Note Swiger talks in the plural... as if to pass
off the "fact" of these "reconstructions." Restoration does not equal
reconstruction.<<

Nice try. Krema one was a bomb shelter? What about the "gas chamber"? What's
this truth talk of the morgue doubling as an air raid shelter? You sound like
a "Nazi". The key point is, Mike, what people see today at Auschwitz is
supposed to be "reconstructed" or "restored" TO THE ORIGINAL. Don't try to
play word games when you're pinned in a corner. Three people have conducted
forensic examinations at this "original" site and their findings have
"converged" indicating NO gassings ever occurred there and the crematories
were of circa 1940 design and of nothing out of the ordinary. Your myth is
over, friend.

>>So the thing to do is to ask Mr. Swiger to define "scientific evidence." So
let's do that now Mr. Swiger.<<

Scientific evidence is self explanatory. Its not testimony, documentary,
hearsay, etc. What I fishing for is something that will add up. Let's focus on
the Krema. According to a "report" one body could be cremated every 5.52
minutes. If the Nazis used coke oven gas to carry out the cremation process
this claim is ludicrous since modern crematories take 1.5 hours to do the same
job at temperatures hundreds of degrees higher and the bones must still be
pulverized. Lets go ahead and assume that the Nazis stuffed 4 bodies in each
retort, although this totally contradicts the design data. So this means 43.48
bodies could be cremated in 1 hour. Can we consider loading and unloading time
here? If we can, this would mean that the actual burn rate was higher! I have
a real problem with people being sorted out in groups of three: one woman ,
one man, and one child and then manually loaded into the retort, burned, and
then the ashes and bones removed all in 5.52 minutes. This insults common
sense. All I'm asking for is a detailed, systematic design and operation that
validates such an absurd claim.

Cliff


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #461692-From Chuck - Msg Number: 462400
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Mike Curtis 76711,3360
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  28-Feb-96  15:41:27

Mike:

>>This is from a witness Cliff who asked me to send this to you. His name is
Chuck. I edited some of the language so it would pass the muster here on
CIS.<<

I received "Chuck's" letter via E-mail. Have you ever noticed there are
certain people who have an obsession with genitalia?

Cliff



From compuserve.com!76711.3360  Mon Feb 26 20:46:17 1996
Return-Path: <76711.3360@compuserve.com>
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	id XAA00692; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 23:43:51 -0500
Date: 26 Feb 96 23:41:39 EST
From: Mike Curtis <76711.3360@compuserve.com>
To: "Kenneth N.  McVay" 
Cc: mike Stein 
Subject: Swiger
Message-ID: <960227044138_76711.3360_FHD40-2@CompuServe.COM>
Status: RO

------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #460791-Allied Crimes? Never! - Msg Number: 461608
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Frank Tansey[SEC] 76703,660
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  26-Feb-96  20:23:12

Frank:

CGS>>RE:"Then explain to me how the Nazis were able to cremate bodies in say
10 minutes or so with circa 1940 crematoria."<<

>>I DON'T GIVE A DAMN HOW they cremated the bodies of their victims or how
long it took.<<

Well I do! It makes all the difference in the world to those who demand some
evidence for such a fantastic allegation! I think your message above just
about says it all. There is no forensic or scientific evidence to support the
allegation. It all hinges on "testimony" like the following:

"According to the ADL - certified eyewitness and holocaust survivor, St. Filip
Muller, in his book "Eyewitness Auschwitz: Three Years in a Gas Chamber" Nazi
doctors cut flesh off the Jews' legs and tossed the fresh cut flesh into
buckets at the crematorium........yet somehow the flesh was still alive, and
as St. Filip tells us, made the buckets jump around."

And I'm just supposed to accept this as fact, right? The holocaust myth was
developed on numerous wild tales such as this. Once again, a massive amount of
obviously ridiculous "eyewitness testimony" proves nothing.

>>You people argue about this like some a recipe in some
damned cookbook.<<

I'm saying there should be a process describing the details of this
accelerated cremation method that is supported by scientific principles. The
allegations don't hold up. Science actually dispells the holocaust.

>>What's the matter with you?  Do you want to REPEAT the
experiment?<<

It never happened in the first place. It's never been corroborated by
scientific and forensic evidence.

>> The FACT remains that the Nazis slaughtered MILLIONS (Jews and
non-Jews) and as efficiently as they could cremated bodies.<<

Maybe so, but not at the rates alleged by the so called holocaust experts and
"eyewitnesses". Why do you think there is so much haggling between Jewish
sources over the rates and numbers? Some refuse to display themselves as fools
and claim the inflated numbers.

>>There are also many MASS GRAVES [containing up to 5,000, or more bodies each
- bodies that were not cremated] located in the camps.  When the Allies
liberated these camps they founds THOUSANDS of bodies just laying around
waiting to be disposed of.<<

No one denies this! But you are using slight of hand here by suggesting they
were all Jews "gassed" by the Nazis. Do you know that NOT ONE forensic
examination done to the corpses ever showed that they died of "gassing". The
examinations did show death by typhus and other acts of war, but no "gassing".

>>To ARGUE about HOW the Nazis carried out their DEMONIC acts is like
arguing whether Jeffrey Dahmer used ketchup or mustard when he ate his
victims!!  This is the kind of thing I would expect from people who are
MENTALLY SICK!<<

Frank, you're going to extremes. It matters a lot just how the Nazis
supposedly "gassed" and cremated Jews. The process involved MUST stand up to
scientific principles and examination. The allegations and testimony
suggesting this thing happened should be investigated. But, when such
testimony cannot be supported by rationale and scientific plausibility then
the testimonies and allegations lose their merit.


RE:"O.K., if I'm "WRONG" then prove it! Tell me where there is ONE documented
mas grave full of Jews exterminated by the Nazis. Don't evade this one."

>>There is an excellent film produced by the BBC called "MEMORY OF THE
CAMPS."<<

Were the bodies determined by forensic examination to be Jews or was it only
mentioned in the film by the commentator?

Cliff 


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #460781-Allied Crimes? Never! - Msg Number: 461602
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  26-Feb-96  20:22:12

Forrest:

CGS>>Well if this is so then there was no sense in those Nazis having to ladle
the fat back over those Jews now was there? 

>>Looking at the blueprints, it would appear that the furnace was not located
directly under the ovens.  So, if one wished to add human fuel to the fire, it
would be necessary to move it somehow.<<

The allegation has been made that the Nazis ladled the fat back over the
bodies. You apparently agree with this. All I'm asking is HOW they did this. I
don't want your opinions or theories, I want design data.

Cliff


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #460978-And the lies Continue! - Msg Number: 461605
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  26-Feb-96  20:22:39

Forrest:

CGS>>All I'm saying is that you provided a lot of "reference" and then admit,
in the end, that very little is actually mentioned about Babi Yar, let alone
the alleged incident at Babi Yar.<<

>>Originally, you said that there was no evidence for Babi Yar except a poem.
Since then, I have posted: 1.The "report" of the Einsatzgruppen.......
2. The "account" of a German truck driver........3. The "affadavit" of a Vilna
Jew..........

Forrest, look what you've given me. More "eyewitness" reports, personal
accounts, and yet another affidavit.  More testimony unsubstantiated by any
forensic evidence. I just can't bring myself to accept such things as fact. If
I were of that mind I'd probably be a Christian minister since I've been
bombarded with "reports", "accounts" and "affidavits" about some fictional
character Jeshua and his Pop, Yahweh.

>>Now, you say that there is "very little actually mentioned about Babi Yar."
This is plainly disingenuous.<<

Well then, shall I add your name to the list of "mentions"? Does your
"mentioning" any more substantiate the claim? I'm looking for physical
evidence; not poems, comments, stories, and hearsay.

Cliff


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #460756-And the lies Continue! - Msg Number: 461603
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  James C. Laughrey 72672,256
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  26-Feb-96  20:22:21

James:

>>Wander on down to a book store and pick up a copy of "The Rise and Fall of
the Third Reich" by William L. Shirer.  Got to about page 1259 or so.  On page
1260 there are detailed excerpts from the confession of Rudolf Hoess.  He
commanded Auschwitz.<<

Shirer's book was the first book I read as relates to the Third Reich many
years ago. Its a very long book and took me quite some time to read. But, I
ground through it. Back in those days I still believed in the holocaust but I
must confess I did not consider the book worth much after having read it. I
remember reading one section in particular where two Russians are being
subjected to some sort of cold water test by a Nazi doctor (rubbish of
course). Anyway, there was a fairly detailed dialog between these two Russians
as they bobbed in ice water. After reading the crap, I couldn't help but
wonder just how Shirer knew exactly what they said. Keep in mind I was only
about 18 years old at the time. In retrospect, it is now obvious that Shirer's
book is a biased fairy tale written to promote the holocaust legend. Besides,
the revisionists have ripped him to shreds.

Cliff


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #460779-And the lies Continue! - Msg Number: 461604
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  26-Feb-96  20:22:31

Forrest:

CGS>>I'm an engineering technician.<<

>>First I've heard of this profession.<<

I'm not surprised.

>>What, exactly, do you do for a living?<<

I work at a power station.

CGS>>What you are alluding to here is that a modern crematoria makes a cold
start for each corpse. Do you know this to be true, or are you theorizing?<<

>>I only recall having seen them on TV.<<

Ahh, I see. You "recall" having see it on TV. Not much of a source upon which
to base your argument, don't you agree? Why you'd crucify me for basing an
argument in a similar manner. Forrest, I've twice now mailed a ten question
questionnaire to a crematory located nearby which for some reason refuses to
answer. I ask this very question about cold start verses hot run conditions. I
think I'll locate other crematoria in a large city and write to them.
Hopefully they will answer. I'll share the answers with you.

CGS>>I'm very interested since I find it hard to believe a crematory would
shut down and cool off to ambient air temperature before cremating another
corpse.

>>Maybe you can explain how the ashes are removed without first allowing in
the crematorium to cool?<<

Actually, I can't. But, I can tell you that we pull hot coal ashes out of
steam boilers that have operating temperatures around 1000 degrees F. Its not
that difficult. Conveyor belts easily do the job or they (the ashes) can be
sluiced with water.

CGS>>You better look again. In the spring of 1944 Auschwitz-Birkenau had 46
retorts available. Each capable of holding one corpse for cremation.

>>Each of the largest crematoria, II and III had 15 retorts.  I don't know how
many the smaller ones, IV and V, had.<<

IV had 8 retorts. V had 8 retorts.

Cliff


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #460794-Jews and the Media - Msg Number: 461601
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  26-Feb-96  20:22:06

Forrest:

>>An affidavit is sworn testimony, which is acceptable in any court. It's hard
to see what you would consider "proof" if you reject all witness testimony.
But since you don't like that, try this: In 1946, the British occupational
forces arrested one Dr. Johannes Paul Kremer for membership in the SS. In his
possession was found a diary which became part of the court record. I quote
extracts:<<

I've got no problem with court testimony. But just because such testimony is
entered into the record does not validate the testimony's content. Does this
not make sense to you? People like you act as though such documents represent
facts and truth simply because they have been entered as evidence.

You speak of a diary here. I find it quite interesting that you automatically
accept the entries in this diary. If this logic is consistent with you, then I
assume you accept the Anne Frank Diary as an absolute truth also? The Anne
Frank Diary is an obvious fraud. Although most of the public is not aware, the
"diary" was submitted as a tape recording. Now if a tape recording were
submitted for publication, based upon an alleged historical event, that
differed with your point of view would you challenge the accuracy of that
publication? I think you would, simply due to the fact that it did not support
your personal agenda. Now Otto Frank, Anne Frank's father, openly admits to
making, "changes" "alterations" "deletions" and "omissions" to the "diary". Is
it possible the "original" does not match Otto Frank's version? Is it possible
this Nazi diary you put so much faith in may have been faked or edited? It
works both ways, Forrest.

Cliff


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #461045-The Holocaust - Not III - Msg Number: 461644
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  26-Feb-96  21:09:17

Manfred:

I've read your posts concerning the cremation rates alleged by the
holocausters. I've discussed this issue with others in a different section of
this forum. Here is what puzzles me: When I ask for specific parameters
validating the claims of astronomical cremation rates all I get is more
"eyewitness" testimony. I'm so sick of testimony. If we were all to place
stock in mass testimony then "god" would be an absolute since there are hordes
of superstitious Christians out there more than willing to provide
"testimony". Is science and logic to be scrapped when it may offend the Jews?

I asked repeatedly for engineering details as to exactly how the Nazis were
able to carry out this fantastic cremation rate. In Western law, the burden of
proof falls on the accuser. Why can't any of these exterminationists come up
with something plausible in this area. The laws of physics dictate here. We
are told the Auschwitz Museum was "reconstructed" according to the original
but if this is true NONE of the evidence there supports the claims. In fact,
it is damaging to the holocausters. The exterminationists argument lies
totally in the realm of "testimony." They have no physical, engineering or
scientific data to support their allegations. My goodness, is this where
Western man is headed? Are we going to permit unsubstantiated tales, lore,
legends, and myths dictate fact? Does it mean nothing to the lurkers of this
forum that NOT ONE corpse was determined to have died by "gassing" through
forensic examination? Is it superfluous that even the most modern crematoria
can only cremate a body in 1.5 hours and the bones must still be pulverized
yet the Germans supposedly could execute the whole process in about 10
minutes? Does the flag not go up when it is understood that the water table at
Auschwitz-Birkenau is merely 3 feet below the surface but the holocausters
claim Jews were burned in pits at this location which were nearly 20 feet
deep! What has happened to logic and common sense?

Cliff



------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #460716-Allied Crimes? Never! - Msg Number: 461607
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Mike Curtis 76711,3360
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  26-Feb-96  20:22:53

CGS >> Then explain to me how the Nazis were able to cremate bodies in say 10
minutes or so with circa 1940 crematoria. <<

>>Again! You want us to go through this for the what, 40th time?! Do you
forget so quickly?<<

Again? You've shown not one shred of engineering feasibility as to how they
did this. Tell me how 46 coke oven gas retorts, each capable of holding one
corpse, can cremate a body in 10 minutes. I'm not interested in more people
saying "It happened, they did it" or affidavits extorted from German officers.
Give me some scientific evidence. For crying out load, aren't the Auschwitz
Museum's crematories "reconstructed" according to the original? This should be
an easy one for you guys. Give me some technical data.

Cliff


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #460791-Allied Crimes? Never! - Msg Number: 461608
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Frank Tansey[SEC] 76703,660
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  26-Feb-96  20:23:12

Frank:

CGS>>RE:"Then explain to me how the Nazis were able to cremate bodies in say
10 minutes or so with circa 1940 crematoria."<<

>>I DON'T GIVE A DAMN HOW they cremated the bodies of their victims or how
long it took.<<

Well I do! It makes all the difference in the world to those who demand some
evidence for such a fantastic allegation! I think your message above just
about says it all. There is no forensic or scientific evidence to support the
allegation. It all hinges on "testimony" like the following:

"According to the ADL - certified eyewitness and holocaust survivor, St. Filip
Muller, in his book "Eyewitness Auschwitz: Three Years in a Gas Chamber" Nazi
doctors cut flesh off the Jews' legs and tossed the fresh cut flesh into
buckets at the crematorium........yet somehow the flesh was still alive, and
as St. Filip tells us, made the buckets jump around."

And I'm just supposed to accept this as fact, right? The holocaust myth was
developed on numerous wild tales such as this. Once again, a massive amount of
obviously ridiculous "eyewitness testimony" proves nothing.

>>You people argue about this like some a recipe in some
damned cookbook.<<

I'm saying there should be a process describing the details of this
accelerated cremation method that is supported by scientific principles. The
allegations don't hold up. Science actually dispells the holocaust.

>>What's the matter with you?  Do you want to REPEAT the
experiment?<<

It never happened in the first place. It's never been corroborated by
scientific and forensic evidence.

>> The FACT remains that the Nazis slaughtered MILLIONS (Jews and
non-Jews) and as efficiently as they could cremated bodies.<<

Maybe so, but not at the rates alleged by the so called holocaust experts and
"eyewitnesses". Why do you think there is so much haggling between Jewish
sources over the rates and numbers? Some refuse to display themselves as fools
and claim the inflated numbers.

>>There are also many MASS GRAVES [containing up to 5,000, or more bodies each
- bodies that were not cremated] located in the camps.  When the Allies
liberated these camps they founds THOUSANDS of bodies just laying around
waiting to be disposed of.<<

No one denies this! But you are using slight of hand here by suggesting they
were all Jews "gassed" by the Nazis. Do you know that NOT ONE forensic
examination done to the corpses ever showed that they died of "gassing". The
examinations did show death by typhus and other acts of war, but no "gassing".

>>To ARGUE about HOW the Nazis carried out their DEMONIC acts is like
arguing whether Jeffrey Dahmer used ketchup or mustard when he ate his
victims!!  This is the kind of thing I would expect from people who are
MENTALLY SICK!<<

Frank, you're going to extremes. It matters a lot just how the Nazis
supposedly "gassed" and cremated Jews. The process involved MUST stand up to
scientific principles and examination. The allegations and testimony
suggesting this thing happened should be investigated. But, when such
testimony cannot be supported by rationale and scientific plausibility then
the testimonies and allegations lose their merit.


RE:"O.K., if I'm "WRONG" then prove it! Tell me where there is ONE documented
mas grave full of Jews exterminated by the Nazis. Don't evade this one."

>>There is an excellent film produced by the BBC called "MEMORY OF THE
CAMPS."<<

Were the bodies determined by forensic examination to be Jews or was it only
mentioned in the film by the commentator?

Cliff 


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #460989-Allied Crimes? Never! - Msg Number: 461606
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  26-Feb-96  20:22:47

>>Horst has engaged in some very dubious practices, for example, he cited a
memoir recounting soccer matches and an orchestra at Auschwitz, but failed to
note the numerous references to starvation and gassing of prisoners in the
same memoir.  David quite properly took him to task for this, at which point
he claimed his library was in storage.<<

Horst is right on track here. Have you ever read Primo Levi's book, "Survival
in Auschwitz"? Look on page 25. If you have an older copy, the information is
in chapter 2, titled "On the Bottom". Here it says:

"He says that every Sunday there are concerts and football matches. He says
that whoever boxes well can become cook."

Now Levi certainly doesn't paint a pretty picture of Auschwitz but he doesn't
offer a shred of evidence of any Jew holocaust either. Most of the mentionings
of "gassings" are pure latrine gossip.

Cliff


From aimetering.com!mike  Fri Mar  1 12:20:53 1996
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Subject: Files
Date: Fri, 01 Mar 96 14:02:00 C
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Encoding: 5 TEXT, 1103 TEXT, 2954 UUENCODE, 245 TEXT
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X-MS-Attachment: SWIGER.TXT 57214 00-00-1980 00:00
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Here is today's forum thread, Horst Kleinsberg. Swiger Stuff.

[[ SWIGER.TXT : 5136 in SWIGER.TXT ]][[ THRD3-1.TXT : 5137 in THRD3-1.TXT   
]][[ HORST.TXT : 5138 in HORST.TXT ]]

------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #462399-#Allied Crimes, never - Msg Number: 462480
   From:  HORST O. KLEINSORG 103512,2230
     To:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  28-Feb-96  19:38:59

Cliff:

It is amazing to see how the Holocausters  are desperately trying to  shut up
all  critics. Regardless, if they can't win on the merits of the argument,
they ressort to personal attacks.

The question is very simple:   WHO  HAS SOMETHING TO LOSE OR WHO HAS SOMETHING
TO WIN?
The Revisionsist have nothing to gain, not a single cent except the truth.
Moreover they almost pay for everything out of their own pocketts.
The Holocausters however have everything to lose. The exposure of their lies,
public funding of the Halloween House on Washington's Mall, all kinds of
taxbreaks for donations to their cause, the anual payment of 4.8 Billion
Dollar to Israel most likely, because they could not hold the Holocaust ax any
longer over the heads of the american people and the politicians and much
more.
Horst

There is 1 Reply.


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #460689-Allied Crimes, never - Msg Number: 463017
   From:  Alex Krislov 76703,243
     To:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  01-Mar-96  01:36:53

Cliff,

Would it be too much to ask you to get something right once in a while?

1) James (The Amazing) Randi has offered $50,000, not $10,000 to anyone who
can demonstrate true psychic powers.

2) He is not offering it currently, because one of the more rapacious frauds
has tied him up in endless lawsuits.  Just losing wasn't enough to stop him,
and Randi has had to use his funds to fight these foolish actions.

3) I know James Randi.  I brought Randi online here on CompuServe.  Randi is a
rational man par excellance, and has no sympathy for such foolishness as
holocaust denial.

--Alex


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Subject:  Babi Yar - Msg Number: 462892
   From:  Manfred Koch 73743,130
     To:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  29-Feb-96  19:33:12

>>Sorry for the monetary blunder. I find your information about this NYT
reporter very interesting. To the best of  your knowledge, has there ever been
any forensic evidence of mass graves full of Jews at this Babi Yar?<<


I don't think so.  The only mass-graves I have ever seen, are in
Bergen-Belsen.  Who and why these 'victims' are there, I have no detailed
accounts of them .  It was a "Krankenlager"  (camp for the sick) were typhus
patients were brought.  The various head-stones at the end of those mounts,
indicating mass-graves, say:
5 000 dead lie here, April 1945;   15 000 dead lie here, April 1945;   6 000
dead lie here, April 1945;  10 000 dead lie here, April 1945 and so on.
Another monument, in the center of the realestate, proclaims something like:
"50 000 victims lie here, murdered by the bestial SS."   The terrain is strewn
with hundreds of Jewish grave stones, and a stone plate,  inconspiciously
mounted in the ground, proclaims: "The Grave Stones in this area have only
symbolical meaning. They do not mark Graves."

In other words, just another optical farce to promote hatred and play on the
gullible.  There are NO mass-graves in Dachau or Buchenwald or Sachsenhausen.
I visited  all those camps myself and searched and asked around.  However,
Sachsenhausen (by Berlin) has a mass-grave of 50 000 Germans, murdered by the
Bolsheviks, who ran the camp after the war.  Dachau has a mass-grave of approx
580 German prison guards (I was told a parking-lot for the police stationed
there was paved over it), murdered on the spot by the 42. US Rainbow Division
on the "Day of Liberation' (29. April 1945). Read:  "The Hour of The Avenger",
Col. Howard Buechner, Medical Corps A.U.S.  (Ret.)  ISBN  0-913159-04--2


=Manfred


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Subject:  #Auschwitz - Msg Number: 462995
   From:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
     To:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  01-Mar-96  00:42:24

>>So fill me in on these "design specifications". I have my own set of
drawings on the Krema both from Jewish sources and Revisionist. But, plan
views reveal nothing about the actual operation. All the evidence I have
indicates the Krema at Auschwitz-Birkenau were nothing out of the ordinary for
circa 1940 crematoria.

    As you have so many questions about the operation of Auschwitz, I went to
the library and found a source, _Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp_ by
Yisrael Gutman and Michael Berenbaum, editors, which contains a wealth of
detailed information.  Included are many technical drawings and photographs of
original documents.  The text is heavily footnoted. I certainly cannot post
the whole book here, but I have taken the trouble to type up some relevant
extracts.  If you have any specific questions, I will try to answer them:

    In 1928, two engineers from Hamburg, Hans Volckmann and
    Karl Ludwig, applied for a patent for a new kind of
    incinerating furnace to be used for cremation.  Until
    then, a standard incinerating furnace had a core that
    consisted of a crucible, or muffle, which took in the
    coffin, and a burner.  Added to this core was an
    economizer, which retrieved heat from the combustion
    gasses to channel it through a complex heat exchanger
    back into the crucible.  The economizer made it possible
    to shut off the burner at an early stage of the
    incineration process and continue it with the energy
    already absorbed into the furnace.  Yet there was one
    problem: though the economizer saved on fuel, it was
    expensive to construct.  The complex system of overlapping
    circuits sometimes took up as much as two-thirds of the
    total mass of the furnace.  Volckmann and Ludwig aimed
    to slash the prevailing prices by replacing the cumbersome
    economizer with a cheaper system based on the introduction
    of compressed cold air into the crucible.

    The patent did not bring the expected riches, and by the
    end of 1934, Volckmann and Ludwig's system had disappeared
    from the German market.  But another company was able to
    capitalize on the idea.  Kurt Pruefer (figure 1), an
    engineer in the small department of cremation construction
    of the reputable Erfurt firm of Topf and Sons, famous for
    industrial blast furnaces, adapted Volckmann and Ludwig's
    idea, and in 1935, Topf installed in various crematoria
    seven gas-heated furnaces without an economizer that used
    compressed air instead.

    Topf's crematorium furnaces had acquired a good reputation
    when, in 1937, a new market opened.  In May, the SS
    leadership in Munich decided to build a crematorium in the
    concentration camp at Dachau and invited bids for a furnace.
    Until that year, Nazi concentration camps had used the
    crematoria of the nearest towns to incinerate the remains
    of prisoners who died in the camps.  Yet at times that
    created inopportune publicity; also, the mortality rate
    in the camps sometimes exceeded the limited capacity of
    the civilian crematoria.

    A response to the SS invitation came from Walter Mueller
    of Allach, a firm that had a proven record with the
    Munich SS, as it had built the central heating system
    for the local SS barracks and the SS training camp
    at Dachau. . . .

    Mueller claimed that there was a direct relation between
    increased use and increased economy.  If the cold furnace
    required 175 kilograms (kg) of coke to start up a new
    incineration, it needed only 100 kg if it had been used
    the day before; a second and third incineration on the
    same day would not require any extra fuel, thanks to the
    compressed air; and those that followed would call for
    only small amounts of extra energy. . . .

    In the spring of 1939, the issue of the crematoria acquired
    new urgency.  By that time, a new office in Berlin had
    taken control of SS construction activities in the
    concentration camps.  This Central SS Office of Budget
    and Building (SS-Hauptamt Haushalt und Bauten, or SS-HHB),
    with the resources to finance and service the building and
    operation of crematoria, awarded Topf and Sons the Dachau
    contract because Pruefer realized that a concentration
    camp didn't need an indestructible civilian furnace
    embellished with a marble neo-Grecian pediment, as
    Mueller had proposed.  Instead, Pruefer proposed a
    stripped down mobile furnace with two incinerating
    muffles, a fuel oil burner, a system to blow compressed
    air into the muffles, and forced draft.  Its estimated
    yield was two corpses an hour. . . .

    By the time Topf began construction of the Dachau furnace,
    Poland had been carved up between Germany and the Soviet
    Union.  Germany not only recovered its pre-1919 eastern
    territories but also annexed additional land that before
    the First World War had belonged to Russian and Austrian
    Poland.  This strip of land included the town of Oswiecim,
    or Auschwitz, as the Germans knew it.  The town of 12,000
    inhabitants was located at an important railway junction,
    allowing easy communication with Berlin, Warsaw, Lwow
    (Lemberg), and Vienna.  And in its suburb of Zasole stood
    22 sturdy Polish army barracks, deserted since the end of
    hostilities.

    In early 1940, the SS decided to install in the former
    army base a camp for quarantining 10,000 Polish prisoners.
    The camp was to have its own incinerating furnace.  The
    SS-HHB requested Topf to submit estimates for a mobile,
    double-muffle oil-heated furnace at Asuchwitz and one at
    the concentration camp at Flossenberg. . . .

    On May 10, 1940, German forces attacked the Low Countries
    and France, and gasoline, petroleum, and fuel oil were
    rationed in Germany.  Because all the furnaces in the
    concentration camps had oil burners, it was likely that
    the crematoria would now face shortages. . . .

    At the end of May, the Auschwitz Neubauleitung (New
    Construction Administration) communicated to Topf that
    the mobile furnace it had on order should use coke.
    Pruefer decided not to tamper with the mobile model,
    which could not be so easily adapted, but instead to
    redesign the fixed, double-muffle furnace supplied
    earlier to Buchenwald (figure 5).  Both Auschwitz
    and Flossenberg went along with the modification, which
    added two external coke burners on both sides of the
    underground flue that linked the furnace to the
    smokestack.

    As Pruefer was remodeling the Buchenwald furnace, the
    Auschwitz Neubauleitung began on June 28 to adapt an
    old powder magazine on the former army base into a shell
    for the new crematorium.  Wilhelm Koch and another
    overseer from Topf arrived at the site on July 5.  They
    decided to rotate the furnace 90 degrees in relation to
    the underground flue in order to obtain the most efficient
    use of the available space.  Twenty days later, the furnace
    was installed at Auschwitz (figure 6).

    Equipped with an electric forced-draft fan capable of
    removing 4,000 cubic meters (cu m) of smoke an hour and
    fitted with an electric blower to inject blasts of
    cold air into the crucibles, the furnace was 50 percent
    more powerful than the Dachau model of 1939.  Fritz
    Sander and Paul Erdemann, Pruefer's superiors at Topf,
    estimated an output of 30 to 36 bodies in 10 hours, or
    about 70 bodies for a 20-hour cycle.  The furnace required
    three hours of maintenance a day.  Yet the furnace could
    not yet be tested.  The Bauleitung had not completed the
    10-m smokestack.  Only on August 15 was everything ready,
    and a first cremation was carried out satisfactorily in
    what came to be known as Auschwitz's crematorium I. . . .

[CONTINUED IN REPLY]


There is 1 Reply.


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Subject:  #462995-#Auschwitz - Msg Number: 462996
   From:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
     To:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  01-Mar-96  00:45:21

    In Auschtwitz, preparations were under way for the
    construction of a second double-muffle furnace at the
    crematorium, for which Topf had quoted the same price
    as for the first (7,753 RM), yet which did not include
    a forced-draft ventilator.  That was not an oversight;
    Pruefer assumed that the already-installed ventilator
    would suffice for two furnaces. . . . They decided to
    build a second furnace alongside the first . . . .

    At the beginning of January 1941, the first furnace in the
    crematorium at Auschwitz broke down, giving new urgency
    to the construction of the second furnace.  On January 17,
    a railway car left Erfurt with parts to repair the damaged
    furnace and material for the construction of the second
    one.  Work began on January 20 and was finished a month
    later.  Topf, however, had failed to send a modified
    design for the ventilation of the crematorium, and as its
    construction had become urgent, Schlachter turned to the
    firm of Friedrich Boos, which was about to install central
    heating in the SS guards' quarters.  Having the requisite
    material and technology for the ventilation system, Boos
    constructed it between February 23 and March 1.  SS
    Corporal Pery Broad of the Political Department (Gestapo)
    described it as a large curved pipe rising from the roof
    [of the crematorium], which gave off a monotonous sound . . .
    a ventilator suction device designed to purify the air
    in the incineration chamber [and the morgue] . . .

    The first visit to Auschwitz, on March 1, 1941, of SS
    chief Heinrich Himmler was a watershed in the history
    of the camp.  Himmler decided to enlarge the camp to hold
    30,000 prisoners and to create at nearby Birkenau a camp
    for 100,000 prisoners of war.  Furthermore, he decided
    to provide to provide IG Farben-industrie with 10,000
    prisoners for building an industrial zone dedicated to
    the production of methanol and synthetic rubber, to increase
    agricultural activity within the camp zone, and to develop
    the camp's workshops.  Himmler also announced that an
    armaments plant would be installed close to the camp.

    The 100,000 prisoners of war were to be used as a labor
    force for the cremation of a colonly (Siedlung) at
    Auschwitz.  In this vast scheme for the total Germanization
    of the city and its surroundings, Auschwitz was to be a
    pilot project and the seedbed for other German colonies
    in the east.  For a year and a half, an architect from
    Breslau worked on the planning of this city.  Only the
    Nazi defeat at Stalingrad on January 31, 1943, put an
    end to his labors.

    Himmler's plans did not affect ongoing activities at the
    Auschwitz crematorium.  The second furnace proved
    unsatisfactory for lack of proper draft.  After
    unsatisfactory communications with Topf, Schlachter
    decided to address the problem himself.  Increasing the
    height of the smokestack to 20 m got the draft going
    again.

    Another and ultimately more pernicious problem was a
    situation stemming from the close presence of
    SS-Untersturmfuehrer Maximilian Grabner, head of the
    Political Department of the camp.  Grabner used a hut
    right behind the crematorium for his Gestapo interrogations
    and the morgue as his place of execution.  When both
    furnaces were going, which happened almost every day,
    they released so much heat that the ventilation system,
    which was supposed to extract air from the morgue, actually
    sent hot air into it from the furnace room.  The only
    way to prevent this was to disconnect the morgue from the
    ventilation system -- with unwanted consequences in the
    hot summer air.  Grabner denounced this "scandal" to the
    Bauleitung and asked that it equip the morgue with two
    ventilators, one to bring fresh air in (to aerate,
    belueften) and one to take stale air out (to dearate, or
    entlueften) and discharge it in conformity with the earlier
    plans through the smokestack.

    The continuous incinerations had done more than just
    disturb Grabner's comfort.  They had also cracked the
    smokestack.  All cremation was stopped between June 23
    and 28 to hoop the chimney with iron bands. . . .

    In Auschwitz, preparations began for the construction of
    the prisoner-of-war camp (Kriegsgefangenlager; or KGL)
    that Himmler had ordered set up at Birkenau.  On October 1,
    1941, the chief of the buildings of the SS-HHB,
    SS-Oberfuehrer Hans Kammler, appointed SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer
    Karl Bischoff to head a special office to oversee
    construction of the camp (Sonderbauleitung fuer die
    Errichtung eines KGL). . . .

    Pruefer convinced Bischoff to create the necessary
    incineration capacity at the POW facility by grouping
    three incinerating crucibles in a single furnace and
    lining the necessary number of furnaces next to each
    other.  That would make it possible to create a large
    incineration capacity in one relatively compact building.
    The triple-muffle furnace seemed a natural evolution of
    Topf's double-muffle model, and the arrangement combined
    efficiency with economy (figure 13).  Pruefer did not yet
    dare to suggest a quadruple-muffle model.

    Assuming one crucible for 8,000 prisoners, Pruefer
    calculated that 15 crucibles would suffice.  That
    translated into five furnaces of three crucibles each,
    linked to a common smokestack.  Pruefer calculated
    that each crucible could handle two bodies every
    30 minutes and that the installation as a whole
    therefore would be capable of burning 60 bodies an
    hour, or 1,440 bodies in 24 hours.  Running day and
    night, the new crematorium theoretically could incinerate
    all the inmates of the projected camp in three or four
    months.

    The building was not to be at Birkenau but in Auschwitz's
    main camp, behind the existing crematorium, across from
    the administration building.  Pruefer sketched a plan for
    a crematorium measuring 55 to 60 m by 12 m (175 feet by
    37 feet).  Its center was to be a large furnace room.
    Adjacent to it were to be a storage room for coke, rooms
    for washing and laying out corpses that had been selected
    for dissection, and an autopsy room, replacing the autopsy
    room of the existing crematorium, which would be displaced
    by the third furnace.  A central projecting wing was to
    house a furnace for burning refuse, two ventilators to
    create a forced draft, and a double smokestack.  The basement
    was to have two vast morgues.   One morgue was to store
    fresh bodies; the other was for corpses about to be
    incinerated.  An elevator was to connect the morgues to
    the furnace and autopsy rooms. . . .

    In Erfurt, meanwhile, Topf worked on the design of the
    furnaces for the new crematorium.  As the size of the
    crucibles in the triple-muffle furnace was larger than
    those in the double-muffle furnaces, the firm decided
    to increase from two to three the number of ventilators
    to create a forced draft.  It was also decided to increase
    their total extractive power from 20,000 to 120,000 cu m
    an hour.  One of the brothers who owned the firm,
    Ernst-Wolfgang Topf, assured the Sonderbauleitun that the
    installation being built would be appropriate and
    well-designed. . . .

    Schulze assigned an hourly extraction capacity of 10 cu m
    for each cu m in each room to be ventilated.  To achieve
    this, he proposed for the 483-cu-m B. Keller, which was
    to be both aerated and deaerated, a double system run by
    two 2-hp blowers, which could bring 4,800 cu m of fresh
    air into the room each hour and extract 4,000 cu m of air
    from the room.  The L. Keller, which was double the size
    of the B. Keller, was to be deaerated only and was to
    receive a ventilation system with a 5.5 blower capable
    of extracting 10,000 cu m of air an hour.  A similar
    system was to be installed in the furnace room, which had
    roughly the same volume as the L. Keller.  The rooms that
    served for dissections totaled 300 cu m of air an hour. . . .

    Pruefer by now had acquired a reputation at the SS-HHB as a
    "magician" of cremation.  In mid-November 1941, the head
    of technical operations of the SS-HHB building department,
    SS-Stuermbannfuhrer Wirtz, invited Pruefer to Berlin.  The
    topic of discussion was the installation of a "cremation site"
    at Mogilev, in Russia. . .

[CONTINUED IN REPLY]

There is 1 Reply.


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Subject:  #462996-#Auschwitz - Msg Number: 462997
   From:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
     To:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  01-Mar-96  00:48:26

    Amid the excitement of the Mogilev contract, Topf also had
    to look after the installation of the third furnace for
    crematorium I at Auschwitz.  On November 20, an overseer
    named A. Mahr had begun laying the foundations for the
    furnace.  He worked for three weeks, but could not continue
    because the Collmener Schamottenwerke of Colditz in Saxony
    had not delivered the fireclay to Topf.  Mahr returned to
    Erfurt.

    Shortly after Mahr's departure, the first lethal gassing
    was carried out whith Zyklon B at Auschwitz in the cellars
    of block 11.  Zyklon B, a hydrocyanic acid (prussic acid)
    pesticide, was made by the Degresch company of Frankfurt
    am Main and supplied through a wholesaler, Tesch and
    Stabenow of Hamburg.  It was available in metal containers
    of four sizes (200 g, 500 g, 1 kg, and 1.5 kg), which also
    included an inert, porous medium and an irritant designed
    to alert the unprotected user to the presence of the
    odorless gas.  Under most conditions, the pesticide was not
    dangerous, as the prussic acid would only vaporize at a
    tempeature of 27 degrees Celsius.  Zyklon B had first
    been introduced at Auschwitz in July 1940, when it was used
    to fumigate the former Polish barracks, which were to house
    the camp's SS guards.  It had remained a staple fumigant
    through 1940 and 1941.

    In December 1941, Zykon B was administered for the first time
    not to vermin but to 250 "incurable" concentration camp
    inmates and 600 Soviet prisoners of war.  According to Hoess
    (who was away at the time), death was immediate.  Others
    claimed that some victims were still alive two days later
    and that it was necessary to introduce a second batch of
    poison.  The killers were experimenting; they did not yet
    know yet how much Zklon B was lethal for how many people,
    and they did not fully realize that hydrogen cyanide vaporizes
    only at 27 degrees Celsius.  The basement block 11 had not
    been heated.  Cremation of the 850 victims also presented
    an unexpected problem: the intensive operation caused the
    second furnace to deteriorate.

    When the experiment was over, it had become clear that the
    cellars of block 11 were less than ideal as gas chambers
    because of lack of ventilation.  Also, the distance from
    block 11 to the crematorium was too great -- the killers
    did not want to move 850 corpses through the main street
    of the camp.  The morgue of the crematorium recommended
    itself as a more efficient gas chamber.  It had a mechanical
    ventilation system that could extract the poison gas, and
    being a one-story structure, it provided an easy means of
    introducing Zyklon-B into the room through three square
    stacks to be created on the roof.

    The new gas chamber in the morgue at crematorium I operated
    probably intermittently from January 1942 until May, when
    it had to be shut down for construction of the third
    furnace.  By that time it had become clear that the
    crematorium did not provide the "privacy" necessary for
    the gassings, and shortly before Topf's men moved in to
    construct the new furnace, the decision was made to
    transfer the gassings to Birkenau.

    By the end of January 1942, Pruefer returned to Auschwitz
    to plan the building of the third furnace for crematorium I
    and, probably in response to Bischoff's wish, to discuss
    the possibility of constructing a backup incineration
    facility in Birkenau in addition to a new crematorium.
    Pruefer now proposed a crematorium with two stripped-down
    versions of his triple-muffle furnace, without a
    compressed-air blower and using only a small amount of iron
    in their structure. . . .

    But then Kammler, who had become head of the building
    department of the powerful succesor to the SS-HHB, the
    SS-Wirtschafts-Verwaltungshauptamt (SS-WVHA, or
    Economic-Administrative Main Office), annulled the project
    during his visit of February 27.  He suggested that it made
    more sense to build the new crematorium at Birkenau. . . .

    In mid-March, Bischoff received new calculations from
    Shulze.  After reviewing the original numbers, he had
    decided that it was better to increase the total capacity
    of the ventilation system of the new crematorium, now
    to be built at Birkenau, from 32,600 cu m of air an hour
    to 45,000 an hour.  The room most affected by this was
    the B. Keller, which was to receive a system capable of
    aerating and deaerating 8,000 instead of 4,800 cu m an
    hour, that is, a 66-percent increase. . . .

    On April 30, a railroad car arrived in Auschwitz from
    Erfurt loaded with 11 tons of material, which included
    two-thirds of the metal parts and all the compressed-air
    blowers for the five triple-muffle furnaces to be build
    in the new crematorium in Birkenau, the iron fittings
    needed for the third double-muffle furnace of crematorium I,
    and all the deaeration equipment.  Most of the car's
    contents were stockpiled.  Only the iron fittings for
    the third double-muffle furnace were of immediate use.

    At the same time, Pruefer was supervising the construction
    at Buchenwald of the first of two triple-muffle furnaces.
    He had hoped that early completion would provide him
    with concrete data before setting up five similar furnaces
    in Birkenau.  At the end of May, the furnace was completed
    except for the compressed-air blower. . . . Extrapolating
    from the Buchenwald data for Auschwitz, Pruefer concluded
    that the five furnaces of the new crematorium in Birkenau
    could incinerate 800 corpses in 24 hours.  That was
    sharply lower than the original figure of 1,440 mentioned
    a year earlier.

    In May, Hoess selected a little farmhouse (the "little red
    house") on the edge of the birch forest at Birkenau to be
    the new gas chamber.  It was to replace the morgue in the
    first crematorium, which was undergoing repairs.  The house,
    measuring 60-80 sq m, consisted of two rooms into which 500
    persons could be crammed.  The doors were made airtight, the
    windows were walled up, and small openings were installed
    to extract the gas from the two rooms.  The executions were
    to occur in the evening; open for the whole night.  By
    daybreak, it would be possible to remove the bodies without
    danger and transport them to burial pits dug in the birch
    forest.  Bunker 1, as the execution site was to be known,
    entered into service that month (May 1942).

    The crematorium in the main camp was in the meantime repaired
    and modified.  On May 30, everything seemed ready, but at
    the three furnaces were started up, something went wrong.
    The hooping of the smokestack broke off, deep cracks appeared
    in the masonry, and the men of the Political Department
    began to fear that the smokestack would collapse on their
    offices.  Bischoff ordered an investigation, and on the basis
    of the report, Kammler approved a complete overhaul.

    A local expert, engineer Robert Koehler from Myslowitz,
    recommended a new smokestack 25 to 30 m high.  Grabner
    howled, demanding that the smokestack not exceed 10 m.
    Koehler realized that he could accomodate Grabner's
    wishes by connecting the 10-m smokestack to a 20 m
    underground flue, creating a "virtual" chimney height
    of 30 m.  Yet there was no room to do this.  Bischoff
    asked a second opinion from Topf.  The firm responded
    that 15 m would suffice.  Then Koehler added a 12-m
    connecting flue to Topf's smokestack and obtained a
    draft 27 m long.  Work began on June 12.

    To this point, Auschwitz had played a completely marginal
    role in the killing of Jews.  The cumulative evidence of
    documents in the archive of the Zentralbauleitung proves
    that the adaptation of the camp for genocidial purposes
    only started in June 1942.  This conclusion contradicts
    Auschwitz commandant Rudolf Hoess's statement, made in
    1946, that Himmler had informed him that Birkenau would
    be used as a killing center in the summer of 1941.  The
    evidence suggests that Hoess retrospectively confused
    1941 with 1942.  Himmler must have summoned Hoess to Berlin
    at the beginning of June 1942 to inform him about the
    future use of the camp.  One condition that justified
    the choice of Auschwitz applied both in 1941 and 1942: the
    camp's excellent rail connections.  But another factor of
    prime importance had arisen only since the end of 1941:
    and extraordinary crematorium capable of incinerating
    1,440 (or was it only 800?) corpses a day.  It was the
    combination of these two circumstances that made Auschwitz
    attractive to Himmler.

[CONTINUED IN REPLY]

There is 1 Reply.


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Subject:  #462997-#Auschwitz - Msg Number: 462998
   From:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
     To:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  01-Mar-96  00:51:08

    The mass murders were to begin on July 1.  That created a
    problem: the crematorium existed only in plan.  Since May
    17, a single detachment of 100 prisoners had been digging
    the foundations, but that was all.  Furthermore, bunker 1
    could not be used for continuous gassing, since it had
    no mechanical ventilation to speedily extract the gas.
    In addition, the camp was short of materials.  Yet such
    considerations were mere cavils for Himmler, and he trusted
    that Hoess would be able to find a solution.

    Not far from bunker 1 was another farmhouse, whitewashed
    and, with a surface of 105 sq m, slightly larger than the
    "little red house."  Hoess decided to transform it into a
    gas chamber following the pattern of bunker 1.  The place
    could hold 800 persons.

    Bischoff was called in to advise on the ventilation.  He
    recalled an article by Dr. G. Peters, director of Degesch,
    the manufacturer of Zykon B, which described a delousing
    system using Zyklon B with eight little gas chambers of
    10 cu m each, set up side by side.  Each cell had two
    gas-tight doors (made of metal or wood), one serving to
    take in personal effects on the dirty side and the other
    to remove them on the clean side.  There was a radiator
    for heating and interior circular ventilation which assured,
    first, the regular passage of the agent over the goods to
    be deloused and second, when the 60- to 90-minute treatment
    was over, efficient deaeration. . . .

    It was easy to install a modified form of the parallel rooms
    with doors at both sides in the little farmhouse.  Yet the
    radiators to provide circular aeration posed a problem.  This
    system had to be set up by Boos, and the delivery process
    would be subject to long delays.  It was decided to drop
    this idea and limit the modification to the installation of
    four small parallel gas chambers of 50 cu m each.  As the
    gas chambers were oriented to the prevailing wind direction
    (north-south in Birkenau), it was thought that natural
    ventilation would suffice.  The method for introducing the
    poison gas was copied from bunker 1.  One or two 500-g boxes
    of Zyklon B per cell would cause rapid death.  The "little
    white house" or bunker 2 was operational by the end of June
    1942.

    Nature competed with man to create mass death in Auschwitz.
    SS doctors were confronted in May with a massive outbreak
    of typhoid fever as the result of untreated water.  By the
    end of June, SS officers and employees of the camps' 17
    civilian firms were forbidden to drink the camp's water.
    Mineral water was provided free.  To make matters worse,
    typhus broke out . . .

    All of this happened while the camp had no crematorium to
    clean up after the killers.  As a result of setting up the
    third furnace and building the new smokestack, the
    crematorium had been especially noticeable once the typhus
    epidemic began multiplying the corpses.  (In his memoirs,
    Hoess dates this stoppage to the winter 1941-42.)  Thus
    10,000 bodies that ought to have been incinerated had been
    buried in pits in the birch forest at Birkenau along with
    the bodies of unfit Jews who had been gassed.  Once started
    up again after completion of the new smokestack on August 8,
    the three double-muffle furnaces operated at their maximum
    capacity (200 to 250 incinerations a day).  That caused new
    damage to the smokestack on August 13.  It became clear that
    this first crematorium was nearing the end of its career.

    Even two months earlier, as more and more Jews were being
    killed on arrival, completion of the new crematorium had
    become a matter of the highest urgency.  On June 18, a
    railway car had left Erfurt with five tons of material,
    comprising the missing parts of the five triple-muffle
    furnaces, the furnace for refuse, and the three blowers
    for the forced draft.  The 1.5-hp motors followed on
    August 6. . . .

    In a report filed three months later with the WVHA, the
    Auschwitz Zentralbauleitung indicated that it had been
    necessary to set about building the new crematorium
    immediately owing to the situation created by the
    "special actions."  This statement formally confirms
    the essential role played by the new crematorium in the
    choice of Auschwitz as the site for the annihilation of
    Jews.  Originally envisaged as a normal instrument of
    sanitation for a prisoner-of-war camp, this crematorium
    had taken on a new importance thanks to the combination
    of Pruefer's commericial convictions, professional passions,
    creative genius, and cordial ties with Bischoff.

    Slowly the men in the WVHA had begun to associate the
    "final solution of the Jewish problem" with the capacity
    of the new crematorium -- or crematoria, as Bischoff had
    begun to consider the construction of a second crematorium
    in Birkenau.  Himmler had ordered that the camp should
    accomodate 200,000 inmates, and the Zentralbauleitung had
    completed a design for the enlarged camp at the end of
    July.  The corollary to this increase in population was
    an extra crematorium.  For the sake of architectural
    balance, Bischoff decided to erect the two buildings side
    by side, each the mirror image of the other (figure 20).
    the number of incinerating crucibles was raised to 30, or one
    for every 6,670 prisoners.  Yet perhaps even that would not
    be enough, as convoy after convoy poured in . . .

    Bischoff had already decided on a a second crematorium with
    15 crucibles alongside the first.  He also had considered
    building an incinerator alongside bunkers 1 and 2 to absorb
    their "production," which, according to Himmler's order,
    must no longer be buried but burned.  With so many crematoria
    under consideration, Bischoff introduced a new nomenclature.
    The existing crematorium in Auschwitz was to be called
    crematorium I; crematoria II through V were to be built
    eventually in Birkenau.  Crematoria II and III were to be
    equipped with five three-muffle furnaces each.  Crematoria
    IV was to be erected next to bunker 2, and crematorium V
    next to bunker 1. . . .

    Pruefer now considered the technical aspects of crematoria
    IV and V.  The stripped-down triple-muffle furnace, which
    he had proposed for the first Birkenau crematorium earlier
    that year, had not been further developed.  Pressed for an
    instant solution, Pruefer recalled the proposed Mogilev
    double furnaces with four muffles.  As the series was
    already in production, the Erfurt factory could rapidly
    manufacture others . . .

    On the morning of August 19, Pruefer went to the Auschwitz
    Bauhof, the warehouse where materials were stockpiled, to
    see whether all the metal part of the triple-muffle furnaces
    were received and were in good condition. . . .

    After lunch, Pruefer attended a meeting with the smokestack
    expert Robert Koehler at the Bauleitung chaired by SS Second
    Lieutenant Fritz Ertl (Bischoff had been called to Berlin).
    They decided to begin construction of the five furnaces for
    crematorium II as soon as Martin Holick, who had jsut
    started up the first triple-muffle furnace at Buchenwald,
    was on hand.  Koehler would line up the furnaces and build
    the underground flues and the common smokestack with three
    ducts.

    Pruefer proposed fitting crematoria IV and V with the
    four-muffle double furnaces that had been readied for
    delivery to Mogilev.  He noted that the SS-WVHA had been
    informed and was negotiating a transfer with the
    Bauleitung of Russland-Mitte.  Koehler was to be responsible
    for the four smokestacks. . . .

    It was clear to all participants in this meeting that
    crematoria IV and V were to be involved in mass murder.
    Ertl, in his report on the meeting, designated bunkers
    1 and 2, located in the Sperrgebiet at Birkenau, as
    "bath installations for special action" (figure 22).
    Kohler took personal responsibility at the meeting for
    committing his own firm to these "special works."  Pruefer
    did not have full power to commit his company to such a
    deal, so he acted on his own. . . .

[CONTINUED IN REPLY]

There is 1 Reply.


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Subject:  #462998-#Auschwitz - Msg Number: 462999
   From:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
     To:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  01-Mar-96  00:53:31

    The final item on the agenda was crematorium III, the
    reversed counterpart of crematorium II (figure 20).  It
    was to be constructed last, because the opening of its
    work site depended entirely on negotiations under way with
    the SS-RSHA (the Reichsicherheitshauptamt, or Reich Main
    Security Office) to get the release of the needed iron. . . .

    Eleven civilian companies were involved with the construction
    of the new crematoria in Birkenau.  Topf was to build the
    furnaces and install the ventilation systems.  The Koehler
    company from Myslowitz was to set up the smokestacks.  The
    Huta firm from Kattowitz, which was already working on the
    shell of crematorium II, began those of crematoria IV and
    V before agreeing to build all of crematorium III.  One of
    Huta's subcontractors, the Vedag company from Breslau,
    waterproofed the cellars of crematoria II and III.  The
    drainage of crematorium II, which had been started by
    the Continentale Wasserwerks-Gesellshaft (Ltd.) of Berlin,
    was continued by the Karl Falck company from Gleiwitz and
    the Triton firm form Kattowitz.  The latter two subsequently
    handled the drainage of crematoria III, IV, and V. . .

    Huta finished the floor and walls of the two underground
    morgues of crematorium II at the end of August.  But they
    still had to be asphalted to protect them from water . . .
    Bischoff pulled strings at the WVHA, and the desired asphalt
    was released at the end of October. As a result, the morgues
    of crematoria II and III were sealed tight just before the
    winter rise of the groundwater. . . .

    The approach of the Silesian winter made it more and more
    difficult to use bunkers 1 and 2.  The temperature outside
    kept falling, and the prussic acid ceased to vaporize
    properly.  At the end of October 1942, the Zentralbauleitung
    began to consider transfer of the gassing from bunkers 1 and
    2 to a room in a crematorium . . .

    It was decided to tranform morgue I of crematorium II into
    a gas chamber.  One indication that such a decision was
    taken is a "leak" -- that is, any mention in a document
    (writing, blueprint, photograph) of an abnormal use of the
    crematoria that could not be explained except by the massive
    gassing of human beings -- that occurred on November 27, when
    one of Bischoff's assistants, Wolter, called Topf to ask for
    a metalworker to install the ventilation systems of the
    morgues of crematorium II. His colleague Janisch, who was
    formally in charge of the site, canceled the request. Wolter
    drew up a note to inform Bischoff what had happened.  In
    this note, he designated the corpse cellar in crematorium
    II as a "special cellar" (Sonderkeller).  This was not the
    only slip. . . .

    By November 1, the SS had become accustomed to the operational
    procedure of bunkers 1 and 2, in which the victims undressed
    in the barracks-stables, were gassed in the bunkers, and the
    bodies dumped in the pits, and it made sense to apply it to
    the crematoria.  Yet the builders ran up against problems
    with the layout and compatibility.  For crematoria II and
    III, the coice of Leichenkeller 1 (ventilated) as a gas
    chamber was obvious.  The SS also planned to use the two
    remaining morgues as gas chambers, wrongly imagining that
    the high yield anticipated for the five triple-muffle
    furnaces would allow a staggered operation.  In this
    configuration, an outside undressing room was indispensable.
    Moreover, it proved necessary to improve the ventilation
    of Leichenkeller 2 (which was only deaerated) by adding an
    aeration system to bring air into the room.  After the
    furnaces had been tested and their output better estimated,
    it became clear that they could not handle the "yield" of
    two gas chambers.  Consequently, Leichenkeller 2 became an
    undressing room.  In this configuration, deaeration no longer
    served any purpose (except to ventilate the body odors of
    the victims, which could just as easily be done by a natural
    air current).

    Leichenkeller I proved in the end to be too large for a
    gas chamber.  At the end of 1943, in order to "regularize"
    the operation of crematoria II and III, the camp administration
    divided their gas chambers in two, allowing no more than
    100 sq m for the killing of 1,000 new arrivals (unfit for
    work) in 24 hours.

    The first sketch of crematoria IV and V, dating from August
    1942, showed only the incinerating section.  In mid-October,
    the Konrad Segnitz company, which was in charge of the roof,
    drew it up in its definitive dimensions.  The furnace hall
    was extended by a vast morgue that measured 48 by 12 m
    (576 sq m), which indicated that it was being used as the
    "end of the chain."  The undressing and gassing of the
    victims was still taking place in bunker 2, but the corpses
    were to be deposited in the morgue of crematorium IV to
    be incinerated there.

    Then the SS tried to put a gas chamber (heated with a
    stove) at the center of the building, which would have
    resulted in the disposition of victims from clothes
    room to gas chamber to "storage" to sluice to the hall
    with the eight-muffle furnace.  Since no mechanical
    ventilation had been planned for crematoria IV and V,
    dearating a gas chamber there by natural means carried
    with it too many risks of accidental poisoning.  It was
    decided to locate the gas chamber as far away from the
    incinerators as possible. . . .

    Crematoria IV and V had an incinerating yield much smaller
    than that of II and III, and so their gas chambers had to
    be more modest.  The SS combined its need for low-capacity
    gas chambers (100 sq m) for "treating" small groups of
    victims with the idea of staggered operations, and thus
    on January 11, 1943 it established the definitive blueprint
    for the killing procedure at crematorium IV. . . .

    Letters and telegrams exchanged on February 11 and 12 between
    the Zentralbauleitung and Topf mention a wooden blower for
    Leichenkeller 1.  This reference confirms the use of the
    morgue as a gas chamber: Bischoff and Prueffer thought that
    the extraction of air mixed with concentrated prussic acid
    (20 g per cu m) required a noncorroding ventilator (figure
    24).

    Other new elements of equipment needed for crematorium II
    were detectors for measuring traces of prussic acid.  Pruefer's
    and Schultze's superiors at Topf and Sons, Sander and
    Erdmann, were informed of this singular request.  Sander
    contacted several companies seeking the detectors.  The
    Zentralbauleitung urged in a telegram of February 26 the
    immediate shipment of the gas detectors to Auschwitz, as the
    gas chamber could not be completed without them.

    Another point of concern was the power of the ventilation
    system in the gas chamber.  It had been designed to provide
    high aeration and low deaeration, which fitted its use as
    a morgue.  As a gas chamber, it should work the other way
    around.  Sander and Pruefer wrote to the Zentralbauleitung
    on March 2 (see figure 25 for the German original):

        Re: Crematorium (II).  We acknowledge the receipt of
        your telegram stating: "Immediate shipment of 10 gas
        detectors as agreed.  Estimate to be furnished later."
        Concerning the matter, we can tell you that for two
        weeks now we have been making inquiries of five
        different firms about the apparatus you want indicating
        the traces of prussic acid [Anzeigegeraete fuer
        Blausauere-Reste].  We have received negative responses
        from 3 firms and we are still awaiting answers from the
        2.  When we receive further information on this subject,
        we will let you know immediately so that we can put you
        in touch with the firm making this apparatus.  Heil Hitler!

    . . . Another last-minute problem arose because of defective
    arrangement of the three forced drafts around the smokestack.
    Transfer of heat from the smokestack to the ventilation system
    was to increase the temperature in all the rooms serviced
    by the system.  Pruefer had pointed out this drawback on
    February 19 and had suggested channeling the excess heat
    to morgue 1 -- a suggestion that clearly reveals that the
    morgue, which must by definition remain cool, had become a
    gas chamber. Heating the morgue would ensure a more rapid
    diffusion of Zyklon B. . . .

[CONTINUED IN REPLY]


There is 1 Reply.


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #462999-Auschwitz - Msg Number: 463000
   From:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
     To:  Forrest Johnson 71061,773
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  01-Mar-96  00:55:58

    Schulze went to Auschwitz on March 1, and Pruefer joined him
    on March 4.  That day the five triple-muffle furnaces in
    crematorium II were tried out for the first time in the
    presence of Pruefer, Schultz, SS men from the Bauleitung and
    the Political Department, and high-ranking SS men from Berlin.
    For this purpose, fifty corpses of overweight men had been
    selected in bunker 2 and transported to crematorium II,
    where they were put into the furnaces.  The incineration
    lasted, according to the rough estimate of Henryk Tauber, a
    stoker from the Sonderkommando, 45 minutes.  The officials,
    who timed the incineration with watches in hand, noted that
    it took longer than planned.  After this trial, Pruefer
    judged that the furnaces were not dry enough and recommended
    that they be heated for a week without being used.

    On March 10, Schulze and Messing tested the aeration and
    deaeration systems of the gas chamber in crematorium II.
    Apparently the installation was still not quite right,
    because Messing continued to work on it on March 11 and 13.
    Then, on the evening of Saturday, March 13, the ventilation
    system was declared operational.

    The same night, 1,492 women, children and old people, selected
    from a convoy of 2,000 Jews from the Krakow ghetto, were
    killed in the new crematorium.  Six kilos of Zyklon B were
    poured into the stacks that opened into the four grillework
    columns implanted between the pillars that supported the
    ceiling.  Within five minutes, all the victims had succumbed.
    The aeration (8,000 cu m an hour) and the deaeration system
    (same strength) were then started up and, after 15 to 20
    minutes, the atmosphere, which had been practically renewed
    every three to four minutes, was sufficiently pure so that
    members of the Sonderkommando could enter the stiflingly hot
    gas chamber.  During this first gassing, the Sonderkommandos
    wore gas masks as a precaution.  The bodies were untangled and
    dragged to the goods elevator.  Hair was clipped, gold teeth
    pulled out, wedding rings and jewels removed.  Once hoisted
    into the furnace hall, the bodies were dragged into the
    furnaces.  Incineration of the 1,492 pieces lasted for two
    days. . . .

    Crematorium II was stopped on May 22 or 23, and the Koehler
    company began to clear away the rubbish from the smokestack.
    This job was completed on May 29, yet Kohler could not begin
    the repairs because Pruefer's blueprints still had not
    arrived.  They did not arrive until a month later, at the
    end of a bittersweet correspondence between the
    Zentralbauleitung, Topf, and Koehler, in which each side cast
    blame on the other for the damages and delays.

    Crematorium II was finally delivered on March 31 at a cost
    of 554,500 RM (1992: $2,215,000).  The memorandum acknowledging
    receipt of the building indicated that morgue 1 was equipped
    with a gas-tight door, four "wire inserting devices"
    (Drahtnetzeinschiebvorrichtung), i.e. grillework columns
    for pouring Zyklon B into the gas chamber), and four
    "wooden lids" (Holzblenden).  The deaeration system of
    morgue 2, which was of no interest once it became an
    undressing room, was not equipped with a motor.  Hence
    the system was useless . . .

    The delays in the completion of crematorium II in March had
    made crematorium IV the first to be officially handed over to
    the camp administration on March 22.  It had cost 203,000 RM
    (1992: $810,000).  Again there are leaks that inform us
    about the use of the building.  On February 28, an
    overseer from Riedel and Son, whose crew was finishing the
    interior of the west section, had to put in "windows" of
    solid wood with the chinks filled up.  In his daily report,
    he wrote, "Putting in gas-tight windows."  On March 2, when
    he had to asphalt the ground of the area where the gas-tight
    windows had been put in, he wrote at the end of the day:
    "Ground to be asphalted in gas chamber."

    The first gassing in crematorium IV did not go well.  An
    SS man, wearing a face mask, had to climb a little ladder
    to get to a "window," then open it with one hand and pour
    in Zykon B with the other.  This acrobatic routine had
    to be repeated six times.  When the gas-tight doors were
    opened to evacuate the gas, it was noticed that the natural
    aeration was ineffective; a door had to be cut immediately
    into the north corridor to get an air current flowing. . . .

    Within a week crematorium II had been brought back into
    operation, and the Zentralbauleitung submitted a report
    to the WVHA showing the camp's daily incinerating
    output, calculated by taking as a "unit" 70 to 100 kg
    of animal remains.  There seems to be a large discrepancy
    between these official figures and the potential output:
    340 kg versus 250 kg for crematorium I; 1,400 kg versus
    1,000 kg for crematoria II and III; and 768 kg versus
    500 kg for crematoria IV and V.  (Real output, of course
    was considerably less, since all the crematoria were not in
    use.)  Nevertheless the figures were valid in a way; the time
    it took to incinerate two children weighing 10 kg each and
    a woman weighing 50 kg was equal to that for a man weighing
    70 kg.  This introduces a multiplying factor varying from
    one to three and makes all the statistics of crematorium
    output a matter of chance.  The estimated yield of crematoria
    IV and V had been calculated on the basis of crematorium II,
    assuming that each muffle had the same capacity as one in
    crematoria II and III.

    But the estimate was more than optimistic.  At the end of
    June, crematorium IV was out of service and crematorium II
    was stopped.  At the end of July crematorium I was neutralized
    at the request of the political department.  As for crematorium
    V, it would not be used after September because crematoria II
    (repaired) and II would thereafter suffice to "treat" the
    daily flow of convoys of Jews. . . .

    The massacre of Hungarian Jews in May and June 1944 was
    carried out principally in crematoria II, III and V.
    The furnace of crematorium V was rapidly overwhelmed, and
    pits were dug alongside its gas chambers to incinerate the
    victims in the open air.  Also, bunker 2 was reactivated
    for the occasion to handle small groups, whose bodies
    were burned in an incineration pit measuring 30 sq m.
    Toward the end of th summer, when Zyklon B began to run
    short, victims were flung headlong into the burning pits
    of crematorium V and bunker 2. . . .

    On October 7, 1944, members of the Sonderkommando at
    Birkenau revolted.  Crematorium IV, where most of them
    were lodged, was set on fire.  The insurrection was
    put down violently by the SS.  The building was then
    torn down, and the metal elements from the stoves were
    retrieved and stored in the Bauhof.

    At the end of November, on a verbal order from Himmler, the
    gassings were halted.  A demolition commando, formed at
    the beginning of December, then dismantled crematoria II
    and III.  Crematorium V continued to be used, but henceforth
    in a "normal" fashion, for the incineration of persons who
    died "naturally."

    By mid-January 1945, nothing was left of crematoria II and III
    but their asphalted carcasses.  The camp complex was evacuated
    on January 18.  At noon on January 20, the SS blew up the
    resistant structures of crematoria II and II. Crematorium V,
    still intact, was dynamited at 1:00 A.M. on January 22, and on
    January 27, Soviet soldiers arrived at the snow-covered rubble
    of the four structures. . . .




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end

------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  The Holocaust - NOT! - Msg Number: 463124
   From:  HORST O. KLEINSORG 103512,2230
     To:  George Minde 70550,623
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  01-Mar-96  10:11:46

George:

>>>> By the way, what is your opinion of the bombings of Rotterdam and
Coventry? Since you seem to be concerned about allied bombing? (And for
goodness sake, why do you leave out Hamburg if that is your concern?) Not that
any of this has to do with the lies you are peddling about the Holocaust.<<<<

Now, dear George, here I have to jump in. What are you trying to prove now?
Another twist of historical facts?
As I have explained to you and others before in this forum, I am limited  to
reply only from memory, since my library is still in storage until my new
house is finished.  Anyone interested in the truth can easily find relevant
literature in any good library.

As a former Luftwaffe Pilot myself  I  was always interested specifically  in
the Air War over Europe.
Let me set the record straight here:
In late 1939, I believe it was in October, the Royal Air Force flew  four
bombing raids against Germany. Hamburg, Emden and Berlin. No  military targets
were hit  and only civilians were killed. Not a single german bomb had fallen
on England yet!  Early 1940 there were several more bombing Raids against
german cities.
The german Foreign Office, in three separate diplomatic notes to England
protested and warned of retaliation, if this open city bombing would not stop.
(by the way, Hitler still tried to get an arrangement with the Brits at that
time.).
When another RAFAir Raid took place, he ordered the Luftwaffe to respond with
all its force and Coventry was chosen. Thereafter Hitler made his famous
statement: " Wenn der Englaender nicht
aufhoert unsere Staedte zu bombadieren, werden wir England  coventrieren".
("If the english don't stop to bomb our cities, we will "coventry" England")
Immediately after the german  Raid on Coventry, the RAF stopped bombing german
Cities for a while and tried to get to more military targets.
Please read:  Kriegstagebuch der Luftwaffe Vol.1 1939, Vol 2. 1940.
also: Warlog of the RAF.
This histrorical fact has never been questioned. In my many conversations with
former RAF officers,
they all agreed with this.
As to Rotterdam: This was a raid aimed at the port facilities. The damage done
to the city, was what is now called "colateral" damage,  the same what happend
in Iraq (Baghdad) during Desert Storm.
There was no order to any of the Stuka-Wings to bomb the city of Rotterdam
itself.
Horst
 


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  The Holocaust - NOT! - Msg Number: 463125
   From:  HORST O. KLEINSORG 103512,2230
     To:  Andrew George Stone 100304,1013
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  01-Mar-96  10:12:15

Andrew:

>>>In terms of individual guilt there is no difference between killing 5 or 5
million. In terms of the guilt of society as a whole there is a considerable
difference. In the killing of 5,000,000 people a large number of people, a
considerable section of society, will be involved. To kill 5 only one.

To an extent you are right. However there s one point what bothers me and
always will. As I have posted before, the germans did not invent bureaucracy,
they just perfected it. If in these KZ.s records were kept of f.e.how many
sets of clothes were handed out to the inmates, how many matresses ect.,
deathbooks were kept of inmates who died , and no records were kept on the
people who were delivered to these installations?  Somewhere these records are
available, for that I would bet my bottom dollar.
Why was it that in the 50's and 60's  the germans could prove almost anyone
wrong or right when claims for compensations were made.?

>>>>When we talk about Allied war crimes we are talking about individual's or
small groups of individual's, not a large semi-industrial organization.<<<<

For the individual victim it does not make a dime of difference. The Potsdam
Agreement betwen the four victors indirectly sanctioned the murder of millions
of germans after the war. This was a signed document, not a verbal  order
supposingly wispered in somebody elses ear since no document ordering the
extermination of the jews was ever produced to this day by anyone.

There is however one point, which should never be overlooked by anyone
regardless if Holocauster or Revisionist.:   If the real truth came out about
he so called Holocaust, it would lose its power to be used as an ax to extort
the US  and german taxpayer.  In its relation to the general carnage of that
time it would be just another unfortunate event.
Horst


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #463071-Jews and the Media - Msg Number: 463157
   From:  HORST O. KLEINSORG 103512,2230
     To:  Mike Curtis 76711,3360
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  01-Mar-96  11:19:10

Mr.Curtis:
>>>> It was the _evidence_, primarily from Soviet interrogation
records, which freed Demjanjuk.
I assume, then, that Mr. Kleinsorg accepts this type of Soviet evidence as
genuine?<<<

>>>> Yup. The evidence used in Israel, by Mr. Kleinsorg's own
admission (it freed Mr. Demjanjuk), was useful, accurate, and valid. That's
the logical - the only - conclusion to be drawn.<<<,

Very seldom in my life, if ever,  have I seen anybody trying to twist  and
confuse other people as you do. I will not fall for this and certainly not for
your relentless pushing of the holocaust story.

Yes, it was _precisely_ the Soviet files and documents which freed Mr.
Demjanuk in his Trial in Israel because his very able Defense Lawyer  was able
to prove that the _soviet_  documents on which the indictment was based and
which the  officially sanctioned hate unit of the Justice Department called
OSI, based his deportation to Israel were  soviet  _forgeries_!!!!!
With technology only developed over the last 10 years or so it was possible to
unmask and expose these forgeries.
This is why Mr. Demjanuk was not convicted and not what you try to explain
that the  soviet documents were genuine.
If nothing else, this clearly shows your agenda. Before your above posting I
was not quite sure about you but now I am ceratin that all your arguments and
your way of  arguing are disingenuous.
You may be able to fool a few members of this forum with your agenda but not
this one!
Horst
  


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  Allied Crimes, never - Msg Number: 463183
   From:  HORST O. KLEINSORG 103512,2230
     To:  Avner Bezborodko 70671,3511
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  01-Mar-96  12:57:02

Mr.Avner:

>>>>Any modern war of nations is a war of peoples.  That is the deffinition of
total war.  Since the German people saw fit to allow the Nazis to lead them in
the aggressions they commited on other countries and populaces, they must be
held accountable for a war they allowed to propagate.<<<<

Finally we are getting somewhere in this dicusssion.

After JUDEA declared war on Germany (see London Daily Express  Headline March
24-1933)
"Judea declares War on Germany"
"Jews of all the World unite!"

Turn your above statement to read:  " Since the jewish people saw fit to allow
their leaders to lead them in the aggression against a sovereign nation of
Germany, they must be held accountable for the war they declared"  . Get my
drift?

>>>>  I do not mean that all are to blame for the holocaust, but as members of
Germany during the war, all are included under the title "enemy".  If the
people of Germany considered themselves apart and separate from the Nazis,
then they should have simply refused to foolow their lead into fomenting
conflict.<<<

Read your above statement the following way:

" I do not mean that all  Jews are to blame for the declaration of war, but as
members of the jewish race, religion and nation, all are included under the
title "enemy". If the Jews of Germany considered themselves separate from
their leaders, then they should have simply refused to follow their lead
and denounce them".

Get my drift again.

By the way, in all fairness some  Jews in Germany spoke out against the above
declaration of war.
The  "Bund national-sozialistischer Juden" was heavily opposed to this.

>>>>As to a hatred by Jews towards the German people.  Prior to 1933, none
existed.  Germany had a large jewish population that was both loyal and
contributed far more then its share to both the culture and economy of
Germany. <<<<

I would accept this statement  if it would read: " As to a hatred by  *german*
Jews towards the German  people........." .

The Nazis negotiated with jewish organization for the establishment of their
homeland Israel. Germany gave to the Zionist Organizations  100 Million
Reichsmark  and had more than 20 training centers in Germany to train german
Jews willing to emigrate to Palestine. Jewish teachers were brought in from
Palestine to teach the language, living conditions etc. to those people. These
centers were in operation until  WW II broke out.
Guess who was in charge  of this program and visited Palestine many times
during this period to see if progress was made in construction etc.:  ADOLF
EICHMANN.

Anyway, Germany paid before and paid afterwards. They got it both ways.

HK








  Any hatred that later developes by Jews for Germans was earned by those
Germans through the acts of atrocities commited by the Nazis, the delegated
leaders of the German population.



------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #462654-Allied Crimes? Never! - Msg Number: 463200
   From:  Avner Bezborodko 70671,3511
     To:  HORST O. KLEINSORG 103512,2230
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  01-Mar-96  13:43:14

So of what "breed" are those who control this forum if they are not _any_
veteran?  This is a forum for veterans and those interested in matters
military, which of them should we be watching out for?

/\vner


------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:  #463125-The Holocaust - NOT! - Msg Number: 463196
   From:  Andrew George Stone 100304,1013
     To:  HORST O. KLEINSORG 103512,2230
  Forum:  MILFORUM   Sec: 14-Coffee Shop
   Date:  01-Mar-96  13:41:01

A charaid Horst

When an individual or organization goes out to commit a crime, they do not
generally advertise that they are going to do so.

Andrew Mac

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