The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/s/swiger.cliff.g/1996/swiger.0196


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Subject:  #1712991-#Holocaust - Msg Number: 1714801
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  BryPuppy 103275,1030
  Forum:  ISSUES   Sec: 00-Staff Lounge
   Date:  26-Jan-96  21:59:30

BryPuppy:

I'd like to exit the subject of "beliefs" and move onto something more
concrete. I hope you don't mind.

I have before me two sketches of an alleged "gas chamber-crematoria" death
factory. The first one I am going to "draw"  is the one as composed by
Rudolf Vrba (formerly Walter Rosenberg) which appears in the infamous War
Refugee Board report. Verba (Rosenberg) claims to have "witnessed" "gassings"
of which we can examine in due time. At the Zundel Trial of 1985, Vrba
(Rosenberg) testified that he was the author of the plan.

                              ____________________
                             !                       !
!___________
                             !       "A"           !     "B"            !
"C"          !
                             !                       !
!___________!
                             !__________!_________ !  

In this sketch "A" is the furnace room. "B" is a large hall. "C" is a "gas
chamber.

This next "drawing" (I've never tried this before) is one as constructed
by a man named Jean Claude Pressac author of the book, "Auschwitz: Operation
and Technique of the Gas Chambers" published by the Beate Klasfeld Foundation.
Here it is:

                                            _____
                                           !           !
                                           !    "D"  !
                                           !           !
                                           !_____!

             __________      _______      ___________
            !      "C"           !     !               !     !       "B"
!
            !__________!     !               !     !___________!
                                          !      "A"    !
                                          !               !
                                          !______ !

Now: "A" is the furnace room. "B" is the waiting room. "C" is the "gas
chamber" and "D" is "Halle d'attente en sous-sol" (I don't understand French,
but I think it may mean an underground hall. At this point, its not important.
We'll get to it in due time.)

What you have here is two "experts" describing the same crematory! Pressac
goes on to "revise" his drawing a just a bit to describe some minor additions
that were supposedly added later (an elevator and a narrow-gage railway). The
absurd contradictions are obvious.

So who are we to trust? Which one is "correct" in his drawing? We can probe
into how each of these "experts" constructed their drawings and expose them
for the mistruths they are, but why don't you pick one and we'll start with
it. Once we are done with our examinations, the unbiased individual may well
experience sickness to finally realize innocent Germans were executed
according to the myth surrounding these "death factories."

Cliff

There is 1 Reply.


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Subject:  #1713095-#Holocaust - Msg Number: 1714807
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Sysop Alex Krislov 76703,243
  Forum:  ISSUES   Sec: 00-Staff Lounge
   Date:  26-Jan-96  22:00:13

Alex:

CGS>> " One of the Jewish participants involved in beating a confession out of
Hoess confessed (braggingly) about the campaign some years later."<<

>>Oh, I see.  When it suits your purpose, ONE alleged witness or participant
is "evidence."  But when thousands of witnesses to an event exist, you call
their testimony "latrine gossip."<<

It depends on the credibility of the one witness verses the unsubstantiations,
falsehoods, contradictions, etc., of the masses. The "thousands of witnesses"
you speak of don't corroborate with each other. Certainly the damaging
testimony by "eyewitnesses" that appear in the War Refugee Board reports,
etc., destroy their own credibility. Would you like an example?

>>Of course, there is copious forensic evidence.  There are real examinations
of the actual crema materials, done right after the war (as opposed to
Leuchter's inept "anaylsis," done without care for which stones were part of
the crema and which were not).  There are documents showing how the chambers
were built.<<

What forensic examinations were performed at these sites by anyone other than
the communists "right after the war?" The hogwash Auschwitz Museum wasn't even
"prepared for the public" until the late 1950's. The communists wouldn't even
let individuals from the West on site. The three forensic examinations that
have been conducted at the site corroborate each other and all examiners have
concluded NO gassings ever took place there. Explain that.

>>There are confessions by the principles.<<

This is true. We also have piles of "confessions" from warlocks and witches.
These "confessions" prove nothing. Due to the fact that the courts at the IMT
and the Auschwitz Trial took judicial notice of the holocaust the defendants
were left with no other methods of defense other than to sign confessions,
deny direct involvement, following German directives, etc., in hopes of saving
their hide. Much like the confessions of witches who claimed to have copulated
with Satan, the confessions of Nazi "war criminals", as concerns the
holocaust, can not be substantiated and are blatantly obtuse to scientific and
engineering realities.

>>By the way, I remind you that your claim about vergasunskeller has already
been addressed.  Are you going to reply, or just repeat a lie over and over
again?<<

What's to discuss? Vergasungskeller = carburation cellar. Gaskammer = gas
chamber. The term "Gaskammer" appears in NOT ONE DOCUMENT.

Cliff

There are 2 Replies.


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Subject:  #1714807-Holocaust - Msg Number: 1714948
   From:  Sysop Alex Krislov 76703,243
     To:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
  Forum:  ISSUES   Sec: 00-Staff Lounge
   Date:  27-Jan-96  04:05:08

Cliff,

UNH-uh.  Faurisson is the only person who puts forth vergasungkeller as a
name for a gasification chamber for the initial firing of the crematoria.  And
since the chambers were COKE-fired, his translation is patently special
pleading, an attempt to rewrite the language to get out of a tight spot.

That is one of the items you simply ignored before, Cliff. As you ignore
everything that doesn't suit you.

You also ignored the fact that he didn't argue for "gassification chamber"
when he tries to claim that gas chambers were use for "disinfection" of
clothes.  Gee, Cliff, do you think the Nazis disinfected clothes by gassifying
them?

No, Faurisson's "translations" are like all matters that fall into his
topsy-turvy world: not only false, but shifting depending on which fabrication
he's advancing.

As to the witnesses, it's remarkable how deniers always try to compare the
eyewitness testimony of thousands --which are largely consistent with each
other, no matter how often you lie about it-- to that of "witches," etc., even
though the latter usually WAS coerced.

Your "one witness" isn't credible, Cliff.  And neither is your pretense that
thousands of witnesses who corroborate each other aren't credible.

--Alex




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Subject:  #1714807-Holocaust - Msg Number: 1714952
   From:  Sysop Alex Krislov 76703,243
     To:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
  Forum:  ISSUES   Sec: 00-Staff Lounge
   Date:  27-Jan-96  04:05:23

Cliff,

Now let's take a look again at some of the material you've ignored--just
material from me, mind you!  That you've ignored the substantial contributions
of others here is easily seen by anyone who has followed your latest evasions
of actual debate.

You claimed that four million were supposedly gassed.  I pointed out the real
source of the number four million. You ignored it.  AND YOU KNEW THE ANSWER
FROM PREVIOUS DEBATES.

You claimed that no Jews were sent to concentration camps before the war.  We
have discussed Dachau in the past, Cliff. SO AGAIN YOU KNEW WHAT YOU WERE
POSTING WAS A LIE. And you ignored the facts again.

You provided a quotation utterly without context, about hating Germans.  You
were asked who said it and when.  You ignored that request.  Now you're
putting that forth as an example of others hating.  But we STILL don't know
the context or your source.  Is this another of your Prenatis-style
"authorities," where you post lies, but refuse to let them be examined?

You claimed the Talmud was "a ridiculous fiction."  In the past you have
posted ridiculous, hate-filled false translations of the Talmud. You've had
the reality behind those passages pointed out time and again, and time and
again you've refused to even check the source material. Again, you preferred
to post material YOU KNEW WAS A LIE.

Why, Cliff, if you're interested in "the truth" are you unwilling to discuss
the very material you post?

--Alex




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Subject:  #1713096-Holocaust - Msg Number: 1714804
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Sysop Alex Krislov 76703,243
  Forum:  ISSUES   Sec: 00-Staff Lounge
   Date:  26-Jan-96  21:59:44

Alex:

>>Ah, the old standby:  they're all lying!  All of them!

You put forward one estimate from an American academic to "prove" how many
Jews were in Europe before the Nazi slaughter--and reject, with slimy words,
the thousands of eyewitnesses to events you pretend not to believe in.

In short, you pick the items that suit your lie...and, often enough, lie
about them.

I've noticed you're not answering my messages lately, Cliff. I remind you
this is a discussion forum.  If you're going to put notions forward, you are
obliged to discuss them.<<

Reread your text in this post. All you have done is make accusations and
hateful comments. What's to discuss?

Perhaps you might find my discussion with BryPuppy on the "gas chambers" and
crematoria at Auschwitz-Birkenau of interest? Why not join us?

Cliff


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Subject:  #1712852-Holocaust - Msg Number: 1714805
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Charlie 75301,1255
  Forum:  ISSUES   Sec: 00-Staff Lounge
   Date:  26-Jan-96  21:59:57

CGS>>The Hoess affidavit was extorted as one of his torturers has admitted.<<

>>Did you find this out AFTER your attempts to discredit Hoess were laughed
out of the Political Debate Forum?<<

I learned the specific details after the discussions you mention.

Who is this confessed torturer?

Höss was tortured by the British soldiers of the 92nd Field Security Section.
Confirmation has come with the publication in England of a book containing the
name of the principal torturer (a British sergeant of Jewish origin) and a
description of the circumstances of Höss's arrest, as well as his third-degree
interrogation.

The book is by Rupert Butler.  It was published in 1983 (Hamlyn Paperbacks).
Butler is the author of three other works: The Black Angels, Hand of Steel and
Gestapo, all published by Hamlyn.  The book that interests us is entitled
Legions of Death.  Its inspiration is ant-Nazi.
Butler says that he researched this book at the Imperial War Museum in London,
the Institute for Contemporary History and Wiener Library, and other such
prestigious institutions.  At the beginning of his book, he expresses his
gratitude to these institutions and, among others, to two persons, one of whom
is Bernard Clarke ("who captured Auschwitz Commandant Rudolf Höss").  The
author quotes several fragments of what are either written or recorded
statements by Clarke. Bernard Clarke shows no remorse.  On the contrary, he
exhibits a certain pride in having
tortured a "Nazi." Rupert Butler, likewise, finds nothing to criticize in
that.  Neither of them understands the importance of their revelations.

>>Where did he come from?  To whom did he confess?  What was the substance of
his confession?<<

>>How does the (made-up?) Hoess affadavit jibe with the genocide evidence at
Auschwitz?<<

An affidavit is testimonial evidence. To answer your question, not only does
Hoess make contradictions to his own testimony but it conflicts with
practically all the "eyewitness" testimony of "gassings" at
Auschwitz-Birkenau. There remains no forensic, analytical or physical evidence
substantiating the alleged holocaust. The myth hinges on testimony that is
contradictory, extorted, hearsay and unsubstantiated.

>>Before you say that there is no genocide evidence at Auschwitz, remember
that I have several hundred unanswered questions left over from Political
Debate Marginal Issues.  Do you want to go all the way back to square one,
debating the credibility of Bill Shirer and scurrying around trying to locate
and discredit dozens of off-hand remarks made by Nazis, from Hitler to Hoess?
I can still get my hands on pages of evidence you would have to go back and
refute.<<

Yes, I'd like to discuss those documents with you in detail. I'd entered here
with that intent but have fallen under a barrage of messages that want to
focus on ME instead of the documents themselves. I'm better prepared now to
discuss them.

Cliff


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Subject:  #1712857-#Holocaust - Msg Number: 1714806
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Charlie 75301,1255
  Forum:  ISSUES   Sec: 00-Staff Lounge
   Date:  26-Jan-96  22:00:02

Charlie:

>>I get emotional about the Holocaust and believe that it happened, but it's
based on a more substantial factual, logical and historical foundation than
anything else I believe.<<

What evidence have you to offer besides testimony?

>>The world is day by day becoming more convinced that the Holocaust happened,
because new evidence comes to the public's attention every time guys like you
start denying it.<<

A pipedream. You know this isn't case, otherwise CompuServe would not have had
to strike a deal with the German government  to censor discussion of the
holocaust in Germany. Laws forbidding denying of the holocaust would not be
necessary if the "exterminationists" did not fear the truth.

Cliff

There is 1 Reply.


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Subject:  #1714806-Holocaust - Msg Number: 1714949
   From:  Sysop Alex Krislov 76703,243
     To:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
  Forum:  ISSUES   Sec: 00-Staff Lounge
   Date:  27-Jan-96  04:05:10

Cliff,

"You know this isn't case, otherwise CompuServe would not have had to strike
a deal with the German government  to censor discussion of the holocaust in
Germany."

What on earth are you talking about?  I am aware of no such agreement.  Are
you thinking of the internet access to URLs with "Sex" in their titles?

--Alex


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Subject:  #1713513-#Holocaust - Msg Number: 1714808
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Charlie 75301,1255
  Forum:  ISSUES   Sec: 00-Staff Lounge
   Date:  26-Jan-96  22:00:20

Charlie:

Here's a sample of some "eyewitness" testimony of which and Alex speak so
highly and typical of what you consider "credible." Actually, "incredible" is
much more appropriate.

Sigismund Bendel, who claims to have belonged to the Sonderkommando at
Auschwitz-Birkenau, treats us with the following "eyewitness" account of a
cremation:

"Thick, black smoke ascends from the pits. It all happens so quickly and is so
unimaginable that I think I am dreaming........An hour later everything is
back to normal. The men take the ashes out of the pits and make a pile."

Charlie, you can't reduce a corpse to ashes in an open pit in one hour. Not
even a modern crematory can do it in one hour! Now imagine a transport of Jews
being burned, bones and all, into a pile of ashes in one hour in an open pit!
As Bendel says, it is "unimaginable" because it is physically impossible!

I'd like you to pick your most credible "eyewitness" as to how the "gas
chambers" were designed actually operated. Toss in another that describes the
interior of any of the crematoria. But be careful

Cliff 

There is 1 Reply.


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Subject:  #1714808-Holocaust - Msg Number: 1714951
   From:  Sysop Alex Krislov 76703,243
     To:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
  Forum:  ISSUES   Sec: 00-Staff Lounge
   Date:  27-Jan-96  04:05:16

Cliff,

Same old thing--comparing ashes and oranges.  You keep comparison a
cold-start modern cremation, complete with a coffin, to multiple-baffled
crema...or, in this case, to an open pit!  You take terms that are obviously
used differently in these different contexts and claim a one-to-one
correspondance.

And what a thin reed to deny the burning pits on!  He said an hour.  Did he
mean it literally?  We don't know.  We DO know that all the witnessness agreed
on the existence of those pits, and that hundreds testified that bodies were
burnt in this fashion.  So you pick out one tiny detail and yell, "See!?
They're all lying!"

Well, SOMEbody's lying here.  I think we all know who.

--Alex


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Subject:  #1717664-Holocaust - Msg Number: 1719664
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Sysop Alex Krislov 76703,243
  Forum:  ISSUES   Sec: 00-Staff Lounge
   Date:  31-Jan-96  21:39:44

Alex:

>>If Rosenberg only saw the exterior, I'd certainly assume Pressac's examine
of the detailed plans and other documentation would be more reliable.<<

But how could this be? Pressac's detailed plans were derived from Verba's
(Rosenberg's) testimony!

>>Of course, contrary to your fictions, Pressac's material has not be shown to
be unreliable.<<

Oh, but it has! The man must have been self-inducing some of those pills he
counted (since he's a pharmacist) when he wrote the book. Merely one example
here: Pressac claims that Wetzler and Verba (Rosenberg) did not observe the
exterior of the crematoria beyond March, 1943. But Wetzler himself was a
registrar at the camp mortuary at least until June 8, 1943! Also in the Verba
and Wetzler report they stated: "AT PRESENT (my emphasis) there are four
crematoria in operation at Birkenau......"

Verba (Rosenberg) and Wetzler escaped from Birkenau on April 7, 1944 and
composed their report a couple of weeks later! Verba and Wetzler were inmates
at Birkenau for over a year from the time Pressac says they did not view the
crematoria.  So Pressac hasn't a clue about what he's writing. He refutes the
"eyewitness" testimony, that you and others esteem so highly, and replaces it
with his own warped illusions! This is just a small sample, want more?

>>But it is typical that you seek to use one person's statement against
another, while pretending that contradictions mean BOTH are wrong. This is a
failure of logic, Cliff, and you know it.  A proper consideration involves
looking at both, including their source materials, and seeing which fits the
facts.<<

I'm simply pointing out that a man like Pressac writes a fiction, "Auschwitz:
Operation and Technique of the Gas Chambers", a very suggestive title, when he
in fact knows absolutely nothing about "gas chambers" and relies on
"testimony" to concoct his tome apparently for the sake of propaganda and
profit. He has been unequivocally discredited. The assumption here is that you
would have opted for this Jew Rosenberg's (or Verba, or whoever, if he hasn't
changed his name yet again) testimony over Pressac! Surely you knew Pressac
derived his drawing based upon "eyewitness" testimony. Furthermore, I do
believe both men are liars. And they do contradict each other. Not only that,
Verba's (Rosenberg's) testimony as to the existence of "gas chambers" was
derived from hearsay by his own admission.

So give me some hard evidence for proof of these "gas chambers". I'm sick of
hearsay testimony and books written by "experts" based upon hearsay. Got any
engineering plans? Like the ones supposedly handed to this Wetzler fellow?


Cliff


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Subject:  #1717834-Holocaust - Msg Number: 1719665
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Mike Curtis  76711,3360
  Forum:  ISSUES   Sec: 00-Staff Lounge
   Date:  31-Jan-96  21:39:59

Mike:

>>One describes the krema based upon technical engineering
drawings (Pressac), while the other depends upon memory of
hearsay.<<

O.K.!!!!! Now we are getting somewhere! Just what "engineering drawings" did
old Pressac use? I'd be very, very interested in this information.

>> Who has "demolished" Pressac's work? Citations, please.<<

Very well, but remember: I'd like that information on the "engineering
drawings". Pressacs works have been demolished by Carlo Mattogno for one.
Check it out.

>>Which German officers were convicted on the basis of Vrba's testimony?<<

Emil Hantl, Herbert Scherpe, Emil Bednarek (indirectly), Dr. Franz Bernhard
Lucas, there are others of course.

>>How many witnesses were called to testify? How many defendants denied the
existence of the gas chambers (hint: none)?<<

This has already been addressed. The "courts" had already taken Judicial
Notice as to the validity of the holocaust. Much like the courts of yore,
which acknowledged that witches existed, it was simply a matter of degree of
guilt. Obviously the defendants were utilizing a defense that might get them a
light sentence or one that showed no willing participation.

>>Be specific - cite document and transcript numbers - if you want to move the
discussion to Nuremberg.<<

You do the same as to any physical, documentary or engineering feasibility
evidence that "gas chambers" existed for the purposes of exterminating Jews.
I'll show you mine if you show me yours.

>>The book, which I have seen, was printed privately as a
limited edition.<<

Maybe you should try READING it.

>>At about $110 a copy, it was hardly mass market material. Is the author here
maintaining that the value of a printed work is dependent not upon the
accuracy of its content, but upon the numbers printed? If so, Batman Comics
must have greater historical value than any history text ever printed.<<

Oh get down off your high horse! You know exactly what I mean. With all this
Revisionism exposing your holocaust myth for the lie it is, one would assume
that a book titled: "Auschwitz: Operation and Technique of the Gas Chambers"
would be your "ace in the hole". Fact is its nothing more than fancy book,
with a fancy title, packed full of contradictions, lies and propaganda and you
well know it. Besides that, I can't believe someone would print a book so damn
physically large! Was that to add to the illusion?

>> As to Vrba, please show that he lied during Zundel's trial, or that his
book contains blatant falsehoods.<<

I've never read his book, yet. However, let it be know that this Verba
(Rosenberg) didn't even come forward as one of the authors of the first two
sections of the War Refugee Board report! The very report during the IMT's
that propped up the holocaust myth. Can you imagine having testimony against
you in a criminal trial in this manner? Where the accuser does not even have
to testify against you! Just a piece of paper with an allegation is
sufficient!

If Verba did indeed author sections of the WRB he did not lie at the Zundel
trial based on the excerpts I read. He admitted the whole idea about "gas
chambers" was concocted on total hearsay. "Evidence" that is absolutely
worthless as everyone knows now. But, during the IMTs, the courts took
Judicial Notice on the holocaust based on  false, hearsay testimony in the WRB
report! Somebody is guilty of perjury or one must admit that the IMTs were
showtrials attempting to send a political message in behalf of World Jewry.

Cliff


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Subject:  #1717665-Holocaust denial law - Msg Number: 1719663
   From:  Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707
     To:  Sysop Alex Krislov 76703,243
  Forum:  ISSUES   Sec: 00-Staff Lounge
   Date:  31-Jan-96  21:39:32

Alex:

>>As always, faced with the thousands of eyewitness accounts, you point out
that eyewitness testimony is not always reliable.  What you omit is that we're
not talking about ONE witness, but several thousand, all of whom agree on the
most important aspects of the testimony.<<

I'm not going to permit you to lead me down a diversionary path over the
subject of mass testimony. For our examination here I wanted to disregard
testimony on either side of the issue unless it pertained specifically to the
alleged "gas Chambers". But, what I was really fishing for was some document
or specification sheet describing the construction of these "gas chambers". I
would even like to read the testimony of ONE "holocaust eyewitness" who can
lend some hint of credibility to this mythos. I opted for the testimony in the
War Refugee report since it seems to be the most vindictive. Perhaps there is
other testimony providing more detail. This is why I asked you to come up with
your best "witness". This was some latitude I was giving you. I would rather
examine something more concrete as posted above. Fact is, Alex, there is no
other evidence than testimony. And simply because there is a mass of it proves
absolutely nothing. Testimonial evidence should corroborate or bolster the
physical evidence. So show me a picture of a pile of corpses, a crematorium, a
can of Zyklon B and a concentration camp. Does this prove a Jew holocaust?
Certainly not. I'm not saying the allegation of Jews on this matter shouldn't
be investigated as they were. But grow up, Alex. Don't act so childish when I
don't accept your assertion that the holocaust is reality simply due to mass
testimony. Many people claim many things, like UFOs, but none have been
substantiated. And don't create the illusion that each and every "holocaust
eyewitness" testimony substantiates the other. Fact is such testimony is so
far fetched and contradictory to others is does more to expose the holocaust
for the myth it is!

>>It is dishonest to pretend that no eyewitness testimony is reliable.<<

I never said that ALL eyewitness testimony was unreliable. I simply said that
the "eyewitness testimony" should corroborate more conclusive physical,
analytical and documentary evidence. As concerns the "gas chambers", its these
later three that I would like to see more of. But you continue to deride my
request because I don't draw "Final Conclusions" from your suggestion that
mass testimony represents established fact.

>>You seek not to find the truth, but to invalidate all the evidence.  That
practice is the most dishonest of all.  It is the hallmark of someone who
seeks not to learn, but to erase.<<

A poor attempt at suggestion here, Alex. I'm only challenging "testimonial"
evidence. I'm simply asking for other more concrete proof to substantiate the
mass testimony. Masses of folks will "testify" as to the existence of the
particular god they believe in but conclusive evidence is sorely lacking to
validate the claim. You know I've read a lot of "holocaust testimony". I
simply asking for evidence in support.

Cliff



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