The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/s/stein.michael/1996/stein.1296


From mstein@access2.digex.net Tue Dec  3 06:48:55 PST 1996
Article: 83326 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: memory is known to be very unreliable
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 2 Dec 1996 00:02:31 -0500
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In article <32a238a8.32019078@news.gte.net>, 
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Leprechan  wrote:
>On Sun, 01 Dec 1996 19:45:06 GMT, John.Morris@UAlberta.CA (John
>Morris) wrote:
>
>>In <32a1a5d1.19259780@news.gte.net>, Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net)
>>posting as PJO@is.back (Leprechan) wrote:
>>
>>>On 30 Nov 1996 02:45:21 GMT, weinecks@mail2.sas.upenn.edu (Silke-Maria
>>>Weineck) wrote:
>>
>>>>Could we have a cite or two, please?
>>
>>>	No.  An acculturated person is supposed to know these things.
>>>These well known concepts are simply applied to the case at hand.  
>>
>>It escapes me how you conclude that an acculturated person would
>>necessarily understand your puerile construction of memory. Is it part
>>of the citizenship exam?
>
>	I realize it escapes you.  I was referring to acculturated persons.

     What would Matt Giwer know about acculturated persons?  Acculturated
persons can read with comprehension and handle basic math.  Matt Giwer has
repeatedly demonstrated that he can do neither.

    He has certainly demonstrated the complete unreliability of his
memory.  However, it is quite idiotic to assume that the rest of the world
shares his failings. 

    Certain kinds of memories are very unreliable.  Certain kinds of
memories are generally reliable (ignoring conditions like Alzheimer's). 
Holocaust "revisionists" who make an issue of the reliability of memory do
not deal honestly with this point in my experience.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access2.digex.net Tue Dec  3 06:48:56 PST 1996
Article: 83331 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: 'These mentally diseased people were taken into the gas chambers'
Date: 2 Dec 1996 00:34:31 -0500
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In article <329a1e72.46036377@news.gte.net>, 
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
R  wrote:
>	It has to do with the execution of the laws that existed at the
>time and has nothing to do with either policy or murder.  

    The laws that existed at the time had nothing to do with the policy at
the time?  Is that really what you are saying?
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access2.digex.net Tue Dec  3 06:48:57 PST 1996
Article: 83338 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Goebbels Talks About the Jews, I
Date: 2 Dec 1996 00:54:20 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <57tquc$9sp@access2.digex.net>
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In article ,
Charles R.L. Power  wrote:
>rblackmore@juno.com writes:
>
>> "We shall drive the Christians into war by exploiting their
>>national vanity and stupidity.  They will then massacre each other,
>>thus giving room for our own people." 
>
>>(Rabbi Reichorn,  in Le Contemporain, July 1st, 1880)
>
>>More quotes archived at GOAL:  http://www.nilenet.com/~tmw/	
>

>[snip]

>I wonder whether this Rabbi Reichorn, or the alleged source LE
>CONTEMPORAIN, had any existence outside this pack of lies.

    First, I note that this "quote" has jumped forward in time over twenty
years from what Chris Carpenter first posted, and has acquired a
periodical name and date.  Rabbi Reichorn has lost his designation as
"Chief Rabbi."

    Alas, the Library of Congress has no record of such a periodical
(although it is not guaranteed that they would have it even if it did
exist).  Moreover, the Encyclopedia Judaica and Jewish Encyclopedia still
have no entry for this illustrious person.  I guess this is why the
Nilenet people demoted him from "Chief Rabbi" - I guess they realized that
the lack of an encyclopedia entry for a person who had supposedly achieved
the position of Chief Rabbi would make the lie too obvious.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Dec  3 06:48:59 PST 1996
Article: 83365 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Clearing the air about Posen
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 2 Dec 1996 13:13:03 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <57v67f$q0s@access5.digex.net>
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In article <32a2ed6d.2183049@news.gte.net>, 
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name of
Leprechan  wrote [about the Himmler Posen speech tape]:
>	When it was discussed here about a year ago, it was stated the
>speaker had not been identified and that there was an effort to
>collect the money for a voice print identification.

    That is a distortion.  Actually, the _original_ challenge was a 50-50
proposition no matter what determination the laboratory made.  I don't
recall seeing a change in the terms though it would not surprise me if
there was one.  I'd be willing to sign on in either case.


>	Two months ago, when I repeated that year ago holohugger position,
>the holohuggers claimed that I was giving a false recounting and that
>it had been positively identified.

    You are as usual giving a false recounting.

>
>	Now we have come full circle with the admission that the speaker
>has not been identified.

    No, the only admission is that the tape has not been subjected to a
voiceprint analysis.  That technology was not available at the time
of the Nuremberg trials.  Other methods were used to identify the speaker,
including the opinion of someone familiar with Himmler's voice and the
notes for the speech in Himmler's own handwriting.

    The issue is that some "revisionists" are trying to claim that the
speech is either a complete fabrication by an actor, or that one small
section was spliced in.  As you know, the person making the claim bears
the burden of proof - at least, you know it whenever it's not your claim
that is at issue.  You suddenly develop amnesia when it is revisionist
claims which are at issue.

    I find it quite intriguing that the people making such claims are not
willing to risk their own money if they are wrong, whereas several of us
(myself included) are willing to take that risk.  It suggests to me that
the cowards will simply find some new reason to reject the speech, so that
the effort to subject it to one more analysis will not really accomplish
anything, and the money spent will have been wasted.


>	This appears to be a variation upon the truth of the month club.  

    In the case of Matt Giwer one need not wait a full month for him to
contradict himself.  A week quite often suffices.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Dec  3 06:49:00 PST 1996
Article: 83366 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Clearing the air about Posen
Date: 2 Dec 1996 12:18:23 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <57v30v$nnk@access5.digex.net>
References: <57sjhr$c90@news.enter.net> <57u6jl$8p7@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <57u6jl$8p7@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>More scarecrows and strawmen from Yale Edeiken.  The fact is,
>no one could determine  if a clever interpolater "stacked the deck".

    Please provide proof of this assertion.  I can recall reading accounts
of how technical experts have, contrary to your completely unsupported
assertion, detected tapes which have been spliced and copied.


>In any event, the speech doesn't prove that the Nazis had embarked
>upon a policy to exterminate Europe's Jewish population, with or without
>the "damaging" statements.

    You know, if you keep repeating unsupported claims long enough, they
just might remain false.  But even if one accepts that this piece of
evidence is not _by itself_ proof beyond a reasonable doubt, there are
many, many other documents and testimonies which converge on that
conclusion.

    As I asked before, how many trees do you need to see grouped together
in a small area before you permit yourself to become aware of the presence
of a forest? 

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access2.digex.net Tue Dec  3 06:49:01 PST 1996
Article: 83370 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nazi Mass Murder in the Ukraine
Date: 2 Dec 1996 01:30:54 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <57tt2u$arj@access2.digex.net>
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In article <57nq48$8q0@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>Do you deny that there are or were forgeries and lies?  I am far
>from helpless.  i do not cry out "lies" or "forgeries" out of
>anguish or desperation.  Would you care to review some of these
>lies and forgeries?  if so, access Deja News and research all my
>posts under "Soviet Def Comedy Jam".  There are a number of them.
>Then come back and lets discuss it.

    Will you deal with the lies and forgeries discussed in my series of
articles, "Revisionist Def Comedy Jam?"  There are a number of them as
well.

    You have offered NO evidence that the documents posted here are
forgeries.  If you are claiming that the mere existence of some lies and
forgeries entitles you to call _everything_ a lie or forgery unless proven
genuine, then intellectual consistency (something you would do well to
learn) would require that you prove all your claims, since so many
revisionist claims have been shown to be falsified in some manner.

    Posted/emailed.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Dec  3 06:49:02 PST 1996
Article: 83379 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Wetzel Writes Lohse About the 'Gassing Apparatuses'
Date: 2 Dec 1996 13:33:11 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 19
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In article <57nu52$8q0@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>>   mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) writes:
>>  >BTW, what ever happened to Kallmeyer?
>>  
>>      Offhand, I don't know.  Why do you expect others to do your
>>  research for you?
>>  

>For the same reason that they expect me to do it for them.

    All I have seen is a request that you provide documentation for your
own claims, not that you answer questions about matters previously not at
issue.  Perhaps you could provide me an example or two of such?

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Dec  3 06:49:03 PST 1996
Article: 83395 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: kurt stele and his nuremberg "cite"
Date: 2 Dec 1996 13:10:59 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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In article <57sru7$pai@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
> But
>       that doesn't change the fact that your friend the
>      pure evil Kurt Stele distorted the story [of Jackson and 
>      the vaporization experiment].
>       This was done deliberately only for the purpose
>       of doing harm. This is evil for its own sake
>       which is why I referred to him as I did.
>
>It seems that the only story which was distorted was the Holocaust.
>    
>  
>  
>No. YOU have distorted this issue.  Jackson most certainly DID
>believe and claim that this accusation was true [....]

    Proof, please.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Dec  3 06:49:04 PST 1996
Article: 83397 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Clearing the air about Posen
Date: 2 Dec 1996 13:25:36 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <57v6v0$qk7@access5.digex.net>
References: <57t219$g7e@news.enter.net> <19961202063200.BAA07273@ladder01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <19961202063200.BAA07273@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
  wrote:
>Yale Edeiken wrote:
>
>>Apparently the only response that the "revisionist" community has is, in 
>>your words "rhetorical."  In other words, that community has so little
>confidence in their assertion that they are afraid to have it tested.
>

>[snip]

>That cleared up, to the above.  I haven't made the assertion, I don't know
>enough about the tape itself to do that.  If I had to bet, I'd give even
>money or better that it's doctored, but that is just a personal opinion of
>no import.

    And even money is all you're being asked to give.  What is of import
here is the unwillingness of nearly every revisionist who makes such
claims about their view of the odds to put real money behind it.  No such
unwillingness has appeared among people arguing the opposite view.  Don't
you find this discrepancy interesting?


>As for anyone, anyone at all, being "afraid" to have it
>tested, where do you get that?  Tell me who, when and why?  I cannot think
>of any support for that statement at all, except perhaps a personal
>opinion with as much validity as mine about the tape.

    Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that they are afraid to have
it tested _if_ being wrong would cost them money.  But that in and of
itself suggests to me a discrepancy between their stated views and their
actual beliefs.  Or so experience tells me.



-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Dec  3 06:49:05 PST 1996
Article: 83400 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel
Subject: Re: 961130:  ZGram - Nov 30 - Another letter
Date: 2 Dec 1996 13:52:58 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <57v8ia$s91@access5.digex.net>
References: <199611301253.HAA16879@gold.interlog.com>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:83400 alt.fan.ernst-zundel:3166

In article <199611301253.HAA16879@gold.interlog.com>,
E. Zundel Repost  wrote:
>November 30, 1996
>
>Good Morning from the Zundelsite:
>
>In the beginning, our mail ran five to one against us, I would guess.  Now
>it is just the opposite.  It is the rare abusive letter that gets shipped
>to our website - which usually contains a bucketful of slime and very
>little else.
>
>The letters in our favor have substance.

    I like to think, Ms. Rimland, that I have sent you letters with
substance - and without a bucketful (or even a teacupful) of slime.  They
have certainly been critical, but that is not the same thing.

    You are invited (ought I say challenged?) to share some of what I have
sent you with your readers.  My only requests are that you quote, not
paraphrase, and that you keep paragraphs intact along with their context
unless I agree otherwise.  And you are welcome to quote me by name. 

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Dec  3 11:01:04 PST 1996
Article: 83840 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israeli Court Values Palestinian Life at One-Third of a Cent
Followup-To: talk.politics.mideast
Date: 27 Nov 1996 18:46:21 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <57ijsd$6f8@access5.digex.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:82494 talk.politics.mideast:83840

In article <3293f07b.245607380@news.micron.net>,
Kurt Stele  wrote:
>On 19 Nov 1996 19:24:13 GMT, ivanpv@aol.com wrote:
>
>>          An amazing article on Israeli justice appeared in the  
>>"Washington Post," Nov. 19, 1996, p. A-15,  by Barton Gellman:
>>

[snip]

>>	"'One agora!' said Bassam Eid, founder of the Palestinian Human
>>Rights Monitoring Group.  'It means the government wants to show how much
>>a Palestinian person's life is worth.  Its message is very clear: 'This is
>>how cheap you are for us'"
>
>Ah, vhat the hell.  If the Self-Chosen of God kill a goyim, who cares?

    I do.

    The original poster omitted the part of the article where the Israeli
explanation was given.  However, it does not really help.  Either the
court should have found that they acted appropriately, or that they did
not.  If it was determined that they acted appropriately, there should
have been no penalty at all.  If it was determined that they overreacted,
they should have been given the same punishment as an ordinary police
officer who gives in to panic and shoots an innocent civilian.  If it was
determined that they opened fire with malice and premeditation, they
should be tried for murder, not negligent homicide.

    It is difficult to see how there can be peace while this sort of
injustice exists.

    However, Matt Giwer has told us that we must stay on topic, so we will
have to move this discussion elsewhere.  Followups set to
talk.politics.mideast.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Dec  3 11:35:52 PST 1996
Article: 31391 of alt.usenet.kooks
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From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.usenet.kooks,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: another minor problem
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 28 Nov 1996 09:47:08 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 121
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.usenet.kooks:31391 alt.revisionism:82941

In article <329d9142.95812378@news.gte.net>, 
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
RBS  wrote:
>On Wed, 27 Nov 1996 22:57:58 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>wrote:
>
>>RBS@arches.ogre [Nazi coward afraid to post under
>>his own name] wrote:
>>
>># Lets see, even after we have the gassed Jews at A-B
>># down under a million (be grateful for small progress)
>>#  we still have millions of Jews having been shipped
>># to A-B but not gassed there.
>>
>>No, we don't. You're simply hallucinating.
>
>	You posted the letter written by Dov Wiessmandel where he gave the
>numbers and rates of jews being shipped in from Hungary.

    DejaNews shows no such post from Dr. Keren.  In fact, the first
posting of the letter found on DejaNews was by mgiwer@ix.netcom.com on 30
Sept.


>I know
>multiplication is beyond you but if you ask a friend to go through his
>numbers for you, you will find he reported some three million
>Hungarian Jews being shipped to Auschwitz.

Let's see, you are referring to this quote?

"Every day, twelve thousand souls are being taken off. Four deportations
of forty-five such train-loads move daily out of Hungary. Within
twenty-six days all that area will have been deported."

    I make that 26 days * 12,000/day = 312,000.  The second sentence is
rather unclear.  I take it you are assuming that he meant 12,000 were on
each of forty-five daily trains?  But that doesn't work either.  It
produces 14,040,000.  Maybe you think he meant 4 * 12,000 * 26.  But that
gives 1,248,000, not your claimed three million.

    Why didn't you go all the way and multiply all the numbers, to get

    4 deportations * 45 trains/deportation * 12,000 people/train * 26 days
= 56,160,000.  You could even add two more days (due to the "yesterday"
reference and the assumption that the twenty-six days didn't include
today) to make the number even bigger.

    Or didn't you think anyone would swallow a lie that big?

    But we still have no explanation of how you can get to the number
three million from anything in the paragraph from the letter.  The most
obvious explanation is that you once again slipped the decimal point.


>	You really should pay better attention to what you post.  Some
>people have a tendency to compare post and the claims in them.  

    You mean people like me?


>># Ah, oh, the pain.  Now all of those stories of the
>># hundreds of thousands of jews from all over easter
>># europe that for decades added up to millions, suddenly
>># WERE NOT SHIPPED to A-B in the first place.
>>
>>No one claimed they ever were. The rest of the Jewish
>>victims died in the other death camps (such as Treblinka),
>>in the Einsatzgruppen massacres in Nazi-occupied USSR,
>>and in numerous smaller camps and ghettos.
>
>	Naughty, naughty.  We are talking about those shipped to be gassed.
>The claim is that ONLY those who were to be gassed immediately were
>not registered.  As for the deaths of the registered, we have the
>death books.  We do not have millions of deaths recorded in the death
>books.  The camps were not large enough to hold millions in any event,
>no matter how densely packed.

    Naughty, naughty.  Nobody claimed that the camps held millions of
people all at the same time.


>	If you wish to talk EG, we are still looking for around 10,000 (ten
>thousand) mass graves that hold their bodies.  And there is still no
>sign of even a small fraction of that number.

    Since you refuse to go farther than your computer screen to look, it
is not surprising you have seen no sign of them.  Have you even yet
checked out the URL I provided with the Australian archaeologist's report?


>But there is no need
>for shipping them to shoot them and in fact there are no reports of
>shipping just to shoot.

    Who claimed that there were?

    It was not necessary to ship them to shoot them.  It was necessary to
ship them to keep their neighbors from seeing them being shot.  Sorry your
mind is not capable of seeing such subtle points.  There were complaints
>from  some German officers during the Einsatzgruppen actions that some of
the executions were too much of a spectacle.


>>Are you familiar with "leading revisionist" Matt Giwer,
>>and his arguments (one of which is quoted below)? You
>>sure sound like him.
>
>	When you see two people who can do arithmetic the ability so
>astounds you that you would naturally think they were the same person.

    12,000/day * 26 days = 312,000.

    Yes, neither you nor Matt Giwer can do simple arithmetic or read with
comprehension.  You must indeed be the same person.  The odds against the
world holding two such idiots at the same time are astronomical.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Dec  3 11:37:56 PST 1996
Article: 83514 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.idt.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Brian Harmon's Curious Signature
Date: 3 Dec 1996 11:11:26 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <581jfe$kks@access5.digex.net>
References: <32a3ed87.44508955@news.micron.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <32a3ed87.44508955@news.micron.net>,
Kurt Stele  wrote:
>On 1 Dec 1996 17:28:49 GMT, brainh@itsa.ucsf.edu (Brian Harmon) wrote:
>
>>Human memory is the glue that bonds
>
>It's about the consistency and strength of Elmer's as several
>contradictory, absurd, and plainly impossible testimonies demonstrate.
>The human memory is notoriously and infamously unreliable.

    You're oversimplifying.  Some people are worse than others; some types
of memory are more reliable than others.  To take an extreme example, how
unreliable is your memory of your own name and address? 

[snip]

>Listen to what Jewish History Mr. Gringauz has to say about your
>"infallible" eyewitness testimony: 
>
>"[M]ost of the memoirs and reports [of "Holocaust survivors"] are full
>of preposterous verbosity, graphomanic exaggeration, dramatic effects,
>overestimated self-inflation, dilettante philosophizing, would-be
>lyricism, unchecked rumors, bias, partisan attacks and apologies."  
>
>Jewish historian Samuel Gringauz in _Jewish Social Studies _(New
>York), January 1950, Vol. 12, p. 65. 

    I have asked you before if you really even understand what Mr. 
Gringauz was saying in the above paragraph.  You never answered.  Can you
recast the above paragraph in your own words?  What is the most damning
thing in that list, in your opinion? 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Wed Dec  4 05:22:25 PST 1996
Article: 83597 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!wesley.videotron.net!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-stock.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!snunews.snu.ac.kr!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pagans?
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 3 Dec 1996 14:47:33 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 60
Message-ID: <58204l$agn@access4.digex.net>
References: <329c572e.17406831@news.gte.net> <329efa58.5258302@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <329e204e.1002655@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article <329e204e.1002655@news.gte.net>, 
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
PJO  wrote:
>On Thu, 28 Nov 1996 20:54:19 GMT, John.Morris@UAlberta.CA (John
>Morris) wrote:
>
>>In <329c572e.17406831@news.gte.net>, Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net)
>>posting as rbs@arches.ogre (RBS) wrote:

>>>The Nazis were Pagans, Right?
>>
>>Some were. Some weren't. Some are. Some aren't.
>
>	Name one that worshipped a tree.  Please, BE CREATIVE.  Name the
>person and the pagan ritual and the documentation for it.

    Tree worshippers would be pagans but not all pagans are tree
worshippers. 

    Of course Matt Giwer is known to be illiterate.


>>  We see ourselves as integral with a unitary world around us,
>>  which evolves according to natural law. In the simplest words:
>>  There is only one reality, which we call Nature: not the "my
>>  reality" and "your reality" of the subjectivists and not the
>>  separate spiritual and physical realms of the supernaturalists.
>>  We are a part of Nature and subject to Nature's laws. Within the
>>  scope of these laws we are able to determine our own destiny.
>>  If we err in our efforts there is no one to protect us from the
>>  consequences of our folly or our weakness. In other words, we
>>  ourselves are responsible for everything over which we have
>>  the power of choice: in particular, for the state of our
>>  environment and for the destiny of our race. 
>>
>>Sounds pretty pagan to me. 
>
>	Read up on the subject.  It does not mean what you want it to mean.

    No, it means what it means:

pa.gan \'pa--g*n\ \-g*-nish\ n [ME, fr. LL paganus, fr. L, country dweller,
   fr. pagus country dist]rict; akin to L pangere to fix - more at PACT 1:
   HEATHEN 2: an irreligious person - pagan aj

1. hea.then \'he--th*n\ aj [ME hethen, fr. OE h-then; akin to OHG
   heidan hea]then 1: of or relating to the heathen, their religions, or
   their customs : PAGAN 2: STRANGE, UNCIVILIZED
2. heathen \-d*m\ \-th*-.niz-*m\ n or heathens or heathen pl  1: an
   unconverted member of a people or nation that does not acknowledge the
   God of the Bible : PAGAN 2: an uncivilized or irreligious person - 
   hea.then.dom n


   Of course the above is from an English dictionary, not a Giwerundean
dictionary. 
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access2.digex.net Wed Dec  4 05:22:26 PST 1996
Article: 83603 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!mongol.sasknet.sk.ca!canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca!nntp.mbnet.mb.ca!news.escape.ca!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: kurt stele and his nuremberg "cite"
Date: 4 Dec 1996 00:37:25 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <5832ml$ojc@access2.digex.net>
References: <57vj36$v8i$1@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <58061t$ape@news.enter.net> <32a4def7.106326501@news.micron.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net

In article <32a4def7.106326501@news.micron.net>,
Kurt Stele  wrote:
>"I have certain information, which was placed in my hands, of an
>experiment which was carried out near Auschwitz."   
>
>He undeniably presented the claim about the evaporation device as
>being the truth.   

    I disagree, though I acknowledge a legitimate reason for you to
believe as you do.  The problem is the ambiguity of the phrase "certain
information."  If "certain" is taken in its sense of "sure, definite,
positive" then you are right. 

    However, "certain" also has a sense of simply "some."  E.g., "Certain
people in this room - and they know who they are - have not been following
company policy."  If Jackson was using "certain" in this sense, "I have
some information," that does not clearly make an assertion of truthfulness
of the information.

    My assumption has always been the latter meaning, and until you
brought up the issue, I must confess that the interpretation of "certain" 
in the sense of "sure" never even occurred to me.

    Posted and emailed to rblackmore, who has also commented on this issue
and may have made the same interpretation.  Not emailed to Kurt Stele due
to prior scorn for such measures.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access2.digex.net Wed Dec  4 05:22:27 PST 1996
Article: 83609 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Clearing the air about Posen
Date: 4 Dec 1996 00:57:48 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <5833ss$q1d@access2.digex.net>
References:  <5827t5$5kd@juliana.sprynet.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net

In article ,
Mark Van Alstine  wrote:
>In article <5827t5$5kd@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>>    The fact is, if I am treated with respect, I would treat you with respect
>>    as well.  
>
>Pardon my skepticism, Mr. Belling,  but I truly doubt that. And given your
>track record of irresponsible and scurrilous Nazi apologia and lies, I see
>no reason to waste any effort to find out. 

    In the interest of fairness I must observe that I feel rblackmore has
been treating me with respect, even though we are far from agreement on
many things and I have been critical of many aspects of his writing,
research, and reasoning.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Dec  4 05:22:28 PST 1996
Article: 83640 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!wesley.videotron.net!news-penn.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-stkh.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-paris.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: agressive
Date: 3 Dec 1996 12:27:54 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <581nuq$q43@access5.digex.net>
References: <329f6420.22898859@news.spry.com> <57oa1r$57u@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <57oa1r$57u@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>>   klewis@awinc.com (Ken Lewis) writes:
>>  >When are you going to admit your affiliation with a synagogue?
>>  >Or don't you have the cajones, pendejo?
>>  
>>  Joseph Bellinger now joins the fruitcake brigade along with
>>  Giwer.
>>  
>>  His research into Nizkor's background is as sloppy as the rest of
>>  his research.
>>  
>>  
>Then you deny it?

    In the usual meaning of the phrase "affiliation with a synagogue," 
yes.  Before the Zikaron Society received its own tax-exempt status, a
synagogue temporarily acted as the agent for collecting donations and
issuing tax receipts.  This it could do because Nizkor performs a function
consistent with part of the synagogue's mission.  However, Nizkor was no
more "affiliated" with the synagogue than is the local power company,
despite the fact that both receive money from the synagogue. 

    There is no official or member of the synagogue who has any control
over Nizkor's operations.  No person connected with Nizkor is, AFAIK, even
a member or employee of the synagogue.  The Zikaron Society has its own
tax-exempt number now.  That information is openly available on the Nizkor
web site.  OK?

    Posted/emailed.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access2.digex.net Wed Dec  4 05:22:29 PST 1996
Article: 83642 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!news-stkh.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-paris.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'rblackmore' Lies About Goeth, etc
Date: 3 Dec 1996 03:43:56 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 66
Message-ID: <580p8c$p5k@access2.digex.net>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net

In article ,
Daniel Keren  wrote:
>"rblackmore" lies about Nazis allegedly "executing
>camp commanders for killing Jews".
>
> Subject:      Re: Another Holocaust Peculiarity
> From:         rblackmore@juno.com
> Date:         1996/10/21
> Message-Id:   <54eopf$d8c@juliana.sprynet.com>
>
># Hmmmm.  Not at all, the SS themselves executed Goeth,
># Koch, and other camp commanders who abused the prisoners
># under their charge.  Rascher was also executed by the SS.
>
>Goeth was tried and executed by the Poles, after the war,
>and not by the SS. "rblackmore" is lying through his teeth.
>
>Koch, as far as I know, was executed mainly for stealing
>state property. I'll appreciate full and exact details
>on his trial and execution by the SS.

    See Hackett, David, tr/ed: "The Buchenwald Report" [Westview Press,
1995], p. 341.  According to prisoner Stefan Heymann, Koch's order to
Blank murder two hospital attendants, Kra"mer and Peix, was the reason for
his execution.  (Blank committed suicide awaiting trial.)  However, I saw
Koch's indictment during the argument with Michael Hoffman, and it
mentioned the embezzlement plus "other crimes." That is a very strange
wording for an indictment - I really suspect that it represented the
murders, which everyone was trying to keep hushed up to avoid a public
black eye.

    One very high SS official, Prinz von Waldeck-Pyrmont, was a personal
enemy of Koch and had a personal interest in Kra"mer because Kra"mer had
treated the prince once upon a time.  There is the undercurrent of
suggestion that the writer believes that had there not been such a
personal stake by von Waldeck-Pyrmont, the crimes would have been allowed
to slide.

    Heymann says also that Morgen was hated and feared by the SS men at
Buchenwald.  Former Deputy Commandant Hackmann was also executed, the only
other one, though his exact crime was not given. 


>As for "other camp commanders", "rblackmore" doesn't tell
>us anything about them. Most probably, this cheap,
>lying Nazi apologist invented this part.

    The only thing I have been able to find out about Goeth which is
unambiguous is the corruption charge.  I went over this in great detail
with Michael Hoffman, who read too much into two ambiguous sources in
order to claim that Goeth was also charged with murder of prisoners.
Hoffman knows of my objection yet still put that claim on his web site, so
he is lying by omission (at least) in not making the full text available
to his readers.  If Mr. Blackmore swallowed Hoffman's deceptive claim
about Goeth, he is not responsible for that one. 

    Hackmann was not an overall camp commandant, it would appear, though I
suppose it's possible he was promoted because he was listed as a _former_
deputy commandant.  But at least he was a deputy commandant and he was
executed, so there was a minimum of one other besides Koch. 

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access2.digex.net Wed Dec  4 05:22:30 PST 1996
Article: 83656 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!news-stkh.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: memory is known to be very unreliable
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 3 Dec 1996 04:14:35 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <580r1r$r2f@access2.digex.net>
References: <329f8627.20946198@news.gte.net> <32a238a8.32019078@news.gte.net> <57tnt7$8ki@access2.digex.net> <32a2eb76.1680045@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net

In article <32a2eb76.1680045@news.gte.net>, Leprechan  wrote:
>On 2 Dec 1996 00:02:31 -0500, mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:

[snip]

>>    Certain kinds of memories are very unreliable.  Certain kinds of
>>memories are generally reliable (ignoring conditions like Alzheimer's). 
>>Holocaust "revisionists" who make an issue of the reliability of memory do
>>not deal honestly with this point in my experience.
>
>	I would suggest you read up on the subject of memory before you
>post on it again.  You have very much to learn before you have a
>legitimate opinion.

    Since you have both provably miserable reading comprehension and a
provably miserable memory for what you have read, I would suggest you
cannot have a legitimate opinion about much of anything.


>	As for you claim of dealing honestly, reconsider the case of John
>Dean.

    Recalling after a long lapse complex conversations, along with correct
attributions, is one of those types of memories which is less reliable. 
So I do not see what point you are trying to make here.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Wed Dec  4 18:38:40 PST 1996
Article: 83741 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!news.bconnex.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Clearing the air about Posen
Supersedes: <581un8$9ku@access4.digex.net>
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 3 Dec 1996 14:27:23 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 82
Message-ID: <581uur$9pr@access4.digex.net>
References: <57rg5h$p6c@itssrv1.ucsf.edu> <57srbq$pai@juliana.sprynet.com> <5802j8$127l@itssrv1.ucsf.edu> <32a46079.3971681@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article <32a46079.3971681@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Trunksated  wrote:
>On 3 Dec 1996 02:17:12 GMT, brainh@itsa.ucsf.edu (Brian Harmon) wrote:
>
>>In article <57srbq$pai@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>>[snip]
>>
>>>I am not playing games.  The recording should have been subjected to
>>>analysis years ago.
>>
>>Well, here's your chance.  We can subject the tape to
>>the analysis that no historian thought was necessary.
>
>	YFE claims that has already been done.  Who is lying?  YFE of
>course.

    I remember seeing no such claim from Yale Edeiken.

    Perhaps it has not arrived here yet?  Perhaps the confessed liar Matt
Giwer will be kind enough to produce this alleged article from Yale?

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html


>>Isn't this the kind of forensic analysis you deniers
>>are always screaming for?
>>
>>Coward.  
>
>	So we agree that, as the speaker has not been identified,

    No, the speaker has been identified as Reichsfu"hrer SS Heinrich
Himmler.  Mr. Blackmore suggests that the tape could have been faked.


>the tape
>is worthless for purposes of holocaust discussion.  So what else is
>new?

    Even Matt Giwer agrees that Matt Giwer is a liar.  So what else is
new?

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html



>>>....However, what will this prove?  A clever interpolator,
>>>using the same equipment available at the time, could have easily doctored
>>>the tape....that is something that can or never will be proven, unless the
>>>guilty party would confess to the deed....

    Confessions are inadmissible according to revisionist rules.


>>And what understanding do you have of recording technology,
>>mr. Blackmore?  If you are concernd that a clever forger 
>>would elude the analytical skill of the experts, why don't 
>>you contact some experts and ask them about it?  
>
>	What "experts"?  Don't you know how voice analysis is done?

    Why don't you search your completely unreliable memory and give us
your completely worthless eyewitness testimony about what you might have
illiterately misread long ago on the subject?


>>It amazes me how quickly you concoct excuses to prevent
>>solving this question once and for all.  
>
>	Why would any revisionist want to waste money on an analysis of a
>tape of unknown origin that is not admissable into the discussion
>until the speaker is identified?

    Since the origin is known and the speaker identified, what does this
have to do with anything?
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access2.digex.net Thu Dec  5 05:46:34 PST 1996
Article: 83786 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!pumpkin.pangea.ca!eru.mt.luth.se!news-stkh.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-paris.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Testimony, Memory, Etc.
Date: 3 Dec 1996 03:07:20 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 111
Message-ID: <580n3o$ngj@access2.digex.net>
References:  <19961127051800.AAA22780@ladder01.news.aol.com> <57luf8$nb7@panix2.panix.com> <329f3e83.12419695@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net

In article <329f3e83.12419695@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
PJO  wrote:
>On 29 Nov 1996 01:05:28 -0500, rakshasa@panix.com (Kevin Filan) wrote:

[snip]

>>	When I was eleven, I was in seventh grade.  (I started school
>>early, for those of you who fault me on my math).  I still remember who my
>>teachers were. [...]

    I remember the names of my first through fourth grade teachers.
Interestingly, I do not remember my fifth or sixth grade teachers' names.

    Different people have different qualities of memory, and different
quality for different _types_ of memory.  My verbal memory is far better
than my visual memory.


>	Rather, if you were able to find a friend from that class and
>compare notes upon events it would be extremely amazing if the two of
>you agree in any detail as to the events.  In other words, your memory
>has been been tested against what actually happened.  You are simply
>confident that you remember correctly.

    You exhibit the same confidence - but DejaNews seldom if ever supports
your claims about what was said, or by which people.


>	At the end is a recent examination of this of the memory of John
>Dean that has nothing to do with me or my opinion on the subject.
>Consider that if his recent memory is this bad, can any of us really
>trust our memories?  That is a discomforting thought but we can not
>assume we are the only ones exempt from this.

    You certainly act as if you consider yourself exempt from this.  You
fail to back up your claims about what was said with quotes, sources,
URLs, article IDs, or precise DejaNews search strategy.

    On the other hand, I _do_ compare my memory to the immutable DejaNews
archive.  And I am usually right, even six months after the fact. 

    No matter how many times I post proof from DejaNews about who said
what when, you still make those unsupported claims.  And then you sneer
that I'm not looking hard enough when I can't find what I know isn't
there, because I've typed in exact keywords from the text you said Daniel
Keren posted.  No such post from Dr. Keren comes up in response to the
keywords.  You are welcome to try your luck if you don't believe me.


>	Further if memory of major events is considered to be evidence of
>truth then in fact some 5% of the US population has been abducted by
>space aliens.  (Into this you can also add ritual, satanic child abuse
>such as the McMartin preschool case.)

    Leaving aside the lack of source for that 5% figure, do you seriously
believe children of that age are no more susceptible to being implanted
with false memories, or going along with an adult's suggestion to please
him/her?  Adults can do it, sure, but children are even more likely to
produce false testimonies for this reason.  So let's stick to something
more clearly comparable. 


>	In studying abduction phenomenon, there have been experiments where
>false memories were deliberately implanted in people's memories and
>very successfully, such that once the person came to "remember" the
>ficticious event he began adding details to that ficticious event,
>that is, he remembered more about that event that never occurred.

    It would be nice if you documented your claims, really it would.  Why
should anyone believe you remembered the above accurately?  And of course
with no statistics this assertion of yours is useless.  You need to give
the success/failure rate, not just the anecdotal fact that in at least one
case a false memory was deliberately planted.


>	Memory is an extraordinarily unreliable tool.  Criminal
>investigators know that it is essential to get to the witnesses as
>soon as possible and that the farther from the event, as little as a
>week, the less reliable the statement.

    True enough, but the decay comes first with the details.  The fact of
an armed robber firing at least one shot into the air is well-remembered;
the kind of gun, clothing, words said, even sometimes the number of shots
fired can mutate in the trauma and the passage of time - often quite
quickly. 


>	In this regard, and much more relevant, I am certain you are
>familiar with the concept that the answer to "What did you do in the
>war, Daddy" is a running joke and for good reason.  
>
>	In the early 1980s an interesting phenomena was identified, people
>were appearing treatment of anxiety regarding the attrocities they
>participated in while in Vietnam.  The problem was that very few of
>these people had actually seen combant, most had not even been in
>Vietnam and a significant fraction of them had never been in the
>military.  Yet they were in fact seeking help for the anxiety caused
>by the "attrocities" that they could never have been a part of.

    Unfortunately, you give no source or statistics.  There is a certain
background level of general craziness.  The proper way to proceed in order
to use the above as evidence is to show that in the case of the Holocaust
the number of testimonies about gassing is actually within expected
background. 

[ Refer to Matt's web site for the John Dean story once again ]
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access2.digex.net Thu Dec  5 05:46:35 PST 1996
Article: 83805 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.usenet.kooks,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: another minor problem
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 2 Dec 1996 02:07:13 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 181
Message-ID: <57tv71$b73@access2.digex.net>
References: <329c8f9e.31283577@news.gte.net> <329d9142.95812378@news.gte.net> <57k8lc$2ur@access5.digex.net> <329e2179.1301832@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.usenet.kooks:31507 alt.revisionism:83805

In article <329e2179.1301832@news.gte.net>, 
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
PJO  wrote:
>On 28 Nov 1996 09:47:08 -0500, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>> [D. Keren] posted the letter written by Dov Wiessmandel where he gave
>>>the numbers and rates of jews being shipped in from Hungary.
>>
>>    DejaNews shows no such post from Dr. Keren.  In fact, the first
>>posting of the letter found on DejaNews was by mgiwer@ix.netcom.com on 30
>>Sept.
>
>	Look harder.

    I searched DejaNews for keywords from the paragraph containing the
numbers.  It was not there under Daniel Keren's name.  Produce the post or
give it up.  Unsupported assertions are off-topic, especially when made by
a self-confessed liar.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html


>>>I know
>>>multiplication is beyond you but if you ask a friend to go through his
>>>numbers for you, you will find he reported some three million
>>>Hungarian Jews being shipped to Auschwitz.
>>
>>Let's see, you are referring to this quote?
>>
>>"Every day, twelve thousand souls are being taken off. Four deportations
>>of forty-five such train-loads move daily out of Hungary. Within
>>twenty-six days all that area will have been deported."
>>
>>    I make that 26 days * 12,000/day = 312,000.  The second sentence is
>>rather unclear.  I take it you are assuming that he meant 12,000 were on
>>each of forty-five daily trains?  But that doesn't work either.  It
>>produces 14,040,000.  Maybe you think he meant 4 * 12,000 * 26.  But that
>>gives 1,248,000, not your claimed three million.
>
>	Only if 200.000 or so were not gassed AND these were the first sent
>to be gassed at A-B is this possible.  Other stories having the quota
>number already gassed before the date of this letter.

    And of course you fail to document these stories.

    Unsupported assertions are off-topic, remember?


>So he was
>clearly lying in his letter.  Right?  Or those who had any gassing
>PRIOR to this letter were lying.  Right?

    Wrong.

    And this does not explain how you get three million out of the letter.
Did you think I would not notice you failed to answer this point?


>	Which is it going to be?  
>
>	You see, the scope of the lies on this subject is so vast that one
>hardly knows where to start.

    Let's start with your lies that Daniel Keren posted the letter, and
that it contains anything which could legitimately give a figure of three
million Hungarian Jews. 


>>    Why didn't you go all the way and multiply all the numbers, to get
>>
>>    4 deportations * 45 trains/deportation * 12,000 people/train * 26 days
>>= 56,160,000.  You could even add two more days (due to the "yesterday"
>>reference and the assumption that the twenty-six days didn't include
>>today) to make the number even bigger.
>>
>>    Or didn't you think anyone would swallow a lie that big?
>
>	Ask the author, not me.

    You are the author of the claim that the letter contains numbers
which, when multiplied out, give a total of three million Hungarian Jews.
I am asking you what numbers you multiplied to get that figure and how you
justify multiplying them.

    We both know that you will never answer this question.


>>    But we still have no explanation of how you can get to the number
>>three million from anything in the paragraph from the letter.  The most
>>obvious explanation is that you once again slipped the decimal point.

    Still no explanation, of course.  Nor do I expect one.


>>>	You really should pay better attention to what you post.  Some
>>>people have a tendency to compare post and the claims in them.  
>>
>>    You mean people like me?
>
>	That is correct.  That you have not found Keren's post of it, or at
>least claim you have not, is very common, not to find what you do not
>want to find.

    That you cannot produce any documentation of your claims is very
common for you.  He who makes the claim has the burden of proof, remember? 


[snip]

>>    Naughty, naughty.  Nobody claimed that the camps held millions of
>>people all at the same time.
>
>	Excuse me, millions were shipped there,

    Where?  Auschwitz-Birkenau?  How many millions, and what source do you
claim for this?

    Unsupported assertions are off-topic.


>only 74,000 "registered" deaths,

    But that is only from part of the death books, unless you claim that
nobody died in the months not covered by those registers.


>only 1.4 million max gassed by the current story.  ALL the
>rest had to be living there and surviving to the end of the war AND
>being released.

    Leaving aside for the moment that your numbers appear to be taken at
random and are too large, you ignore the fact that the unregistered death
totals (which are not claimed to have occurred exclusively by gassing) are
computed by subtracting the number surviving from the number shipped in.

    This number is indeed too large by an unknown amount, since there were
unregistered transfers of workers.  However, we are still looking for any
physical evidence of transfers of those not able to work prior to the
final evacuation of the camp.


>Throw in your Bergen deaths if you will.  That still
>does not account for the "millions" shipped there with only a fraction
>of those millions gassed.

    You clearly are not capable of understanding what you read.


>>>	If you wish to talk EG, we are still looking for around 10,000 (ten
>>>thousand) mass graves that hold their bodies.  And there is still no
>>>sign of even a small fraction of that number.
>>
>>    Since you refuse to go farther than your computer screen to look, it
>>is not surprising you have seen no sign of them.  Have you even yet
>>checked out the URL I provided with the Australian archaeologist's report?
>
>	Granted, that I have not had the opportunity to survey all of
>Eastern Europe.  OTOH, 10,000 need be found, just for the ungassed.

    Where _did_ you get that figure of 10,000?  Threw darts?


>>>But there is no need
>>>for shipping them to shoot them and in fact there are no reports of
>>>shipping just to shoot.
>>
>>    Who claimed that there were?  
>
>	Someone will to salvage the stories of the millions that were
>shipped but never wound up in any camp.  

    When you can produce such stories, and deal honestly with the points I
have raised, do get back to me.  Until then, unsupported assertions are
off topic.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Dec  5 05:46:36 PST 1996
Article: 83847 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!pumpkin.pangea.ca!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Suchomel and Shoah
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 3 Dec 1996 12:08:12 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <581mps$oof@access5.digex.net>
References: <565v2j$ohh@Vir.com>  <32981c74.57618247@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <32981c74.57618247@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) writing as
Freddie  wrote:

[personal attacks not dealing with the data snipped]

>	Beyond that, there is the clearly deceptive nature of McVay and the
>Nizkook Krew that has been denying any such connection for years.

    The clearly deceptive nature of Matt Giwer, who posted a 1994
interview to "prove" that Ken was lying about what was true in 1996, is
well known to regular readers here. 

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html


>They have all denied being a front for organized jewry.  But a
>synagogue is quite an example of organized jewry and they front for
>the synagogue.
>
>	Deception, fraud, solicitation under false pretenses (any or all of
>which may or may not be a crime) are all true regarding McVay, the
>Nizkooks and the synagogue.

    It is certainly true that Matt Giwer is a liar.



>	Gee, I a brilliant and I do not even know it.  I do not need to
>involve Revenue Canada at all.  I can start the investigation in the
>US with the IRS by simply reporting the deception to the IRS regarding
>the US collection side.  
>
>	It will all go downhill from there, AND I get a fraction of the
>recovered taxes.  Sounds great to me.  
>
>	Does anyone see any problems with this?  

    Other than that Matt Giwer is a delusional liar who will invest $0.32
to collect some percentage of zero, no, I see no problems with this. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access2.digex.net Thu Dec  5 08:07:03 PST 1996
Article: 83878 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!news.alfred.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: agressive
Date: 4 Dec 1996 00:40:00 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <5832rg$opj@access2.digex.net>
References: <329f6420.22898859@news.spry.com> <57oa1r$57u@juliana.sprynet.com> <581nuq$q43@access5.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net

In article <581nuq$q43@access5.digex.net>,
Michael P. Stein  wrote:
>a member or employee of the synagogue.  The Zikaron Society has its own
>tax-exempt number now.  That information is openly available on the Nizkor
>web site.  OK?

    Oops.  Apologies for the ambiguous phrasing.  The general information
about Zikaron is available, not the precise registration number. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Dec  5 09:25:46 PST 1996
Article: 83897 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Fuhrer's Gaze (Thank You, ourhero!)
Date: 2 Dec 1996 13:43:28 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <57v80g$rpm@access5.digex.net>
References:  <57ntp0$8q0@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <57ntp0$8q0@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>>   dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:

[Letter from Rascher regarding the construction of a gas chamber at
Dachau]
>>    gases. Because of this paragraph, I have sent this letter
>>    marked  'Secret'".
>>  

>And this letter was so secret that "Doctor" Keren can refer to
>it today.

    Captured secret documents become unsecret later, as do secrets which
become unclassified.  You have referred to the Ultra secret yourself.
Does this mean it wasn't a secret at one time, or that it was a hoax?


>Of course you have Himmler's reply to this alleged
>corresponce......You don't?  How predictable!

    Do you have the slightest clue how utterly idiotic and intellectually
dishonest your arguments are here?  You don't?  How predictable!

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Dec  5 09:25:47 PST 1996
Article: 83902 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Yale Eideken's Lie Exposed
Date: 3 Dec 1996 11:35:35 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <581ksn$m1t@access5.digex.net>
References: <32A0C5C3.5B63@rio.com> <57skne$c90@news.enter.net> <32a3ecaa.44288588@news.micron.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <32a3ecaa.44288588@news.micron.net>,
Kurt Stele  wrote:
>On 1 Dec 1996 19:02:06 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

[snip]

>>	4.  He did not know of the Motions in Limine filed by the Freeman 
>>brothers (and, in fact, denied that that there was one).
[snip]

>Amazing.  Yale is making up even more lies.   Even when Yale is caught
>red-handed Yale excretes another baleful.
>
>The prosecutor who handled the case (i.e., the one who would have had
>to have been the one filing all the motion Yale completely made up,

    Excuse me, but as Yale clearly said above, the Motion in Limine would
have been filed by the defense, not the prosecution.  So the proper people
to ask would be the defense.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Fri Dec  6 04:16:29 PST 1996
Article: 84017 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Testimony, Memory, Etc.
Date: 3 Dec 1996 16:22:03 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 368
Message-ID: <5825lr$e2o@access4.digex.net>
References:  <329f3e83.12419695@news.gte.net> <580n3o$ngj@access2.digex.net> <32a45391.667833@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article <32a45391.667833@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Trunksated  wrote:
>On 3 Dec 1996 03:07:20 -0500, mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <329f3e83.12419695@news.gte.net>,
>>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
>>PJO  wrote:
>>>On 29 Nov 1996 01:05:28 -0500, rakshasa@panix.com (Kevin Filan) wrote:
>>
>>[snip]
>>
>>>>	When I was eleven, I was in seventh grade.  (I started school
>>>>early, for those of you who fault me on my math).  I still remember who my
>>>>teachers were. [...]
>>
>>    I remember the names of my first through fourth grade teachers.
>>Interestingly, I do not remember my fifth or sixth grade teachers' names.
>
>	Are you certain you "remember" the names correctly?  If you have
>looked up the names in the interim, you have not relied upon memory
>for their names.

    Ruberg, Holgate (her maiden name; she left teaching to get married the
year after I had her), Debbink, Memler. I have not looked them up.  Would
you like me to go through the exercise of validating them through
Cumberland Elementary School, Whitefish Bay, WI?  Sorry, I _will_ have to
look up the address for the school.  That I do _not_ remember.  It's been
over thirty years, after all. 


>>    Different people have different qualities of memory, and different
>>quality for different _types_ of memory.  My verbal memory is far better
>>than my visual memory.
>
>	How have you verified the accuracy that you presume you have?

    When I remember a discussion, including some key phrases, and can use
DejaNews to search for those key phrases, and find them as I expected,
that verifies my accuracy.  When we disagree about the history of a
discussion and time after time I can prove myself right, that verifies my
accuracy.

    Note that I do not claim total recall.  Rather, I have different
levels of confidence in various memories.  For my high-confidence
memories in these discussions, my confidence has not been betrayed.


>Have you written it all down from memory before checking?

    Not _all_.  If you mean, writing down a summary of the discussion -
sometimes, yes.  That is, I will write up my summary of the prior
discussion that you distorted, _then_ pull up the DejaNews quote that
proves your distortion.  But I was talking about specific points.  I will
not remember every detail, but I have not found myself remembering with
confidence a statement that wasn't there when I went back to look. 


>Have you had a
>third party involved in your self testing?  That is, someone other
>than you to determine if what you have written is in sufficient detail
>to be considered correct.

    The entire newsgroup, when I post the quote.  Have you noticed anyone
agreeing with your interpretation over mine?


>>>	Rather, if you were able to find a friend from that class and
>>>compare notes upon events it would be extremely amazing if the two of
>>>you agree in any detail as to the events.  In other words, your memory
>>>has been been tested against what actually happened.  You are simply
>>>confident that you remember correctly.
>>
>>    You exhibit the same confidence - but DejaNews seldom if ever supports
>>your claims about what was said, or by which people.
>
>	Therefore you agree that you memory is equally faulty?  Rather you
>are directed towards a review of ALL Deju News posts on a subject,
>both sides, all the way back.

    I do not agree that all memory is equally faulty.  Mine is clearly
more accurate than yours.  I constantly find DejaNews quotes to refute
your claims about what was said.  You cannot say the same about me.


>	The reason for this is the long standing "the body is exothermic"
>where the holobuggers have focussed upon that one aspect, and then
>have dug up a couple of messages where the claim was unqualified from
>the original context, and have then claimed that was the only
>statement made.  If you (or they) were to honestly review the exchange
>from its beginning, it started with the claim that no additional fuel
>was needed for the second and following bodies.

    I do not even need to go back and check.  I know about the "no
additional fuel" claim and for a wonder and a marvel you do have that
right.  But let's try what you propose, just for funsies.  You will have
to trust me that I have written this down before searching and did not
change it after the search.  The claim is based on a statement by Walter
Muller of Allach.  He said that the subsequent bodies the same day
required no additional fuel, and that starting up the next day required
less fuel than a completely cold start. (I do not remember the precise
figure he gave for coke required, but he did give a figure.)

    And now we see what DejaNews says about my memory of this initial
claim:


  Article 4 of 18
  
 Subject:      Re: CREMATORIES: the fuel
 From:         mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
 Date:         1996/03/13
 Message-Id:   
 Newsgroups:   alt.revisionism
  Article Segment 1 of 4
  (Get All 4 Segments)

[snip]

In answer to 1: Walter Mu"ller, of the engineering firm Allach, certainly
did claim such. According to Pressac (_Anatomy_, p.185) "Mu"ller claimed
that there was a direct relation between increased use and increased
economy. If the cold furnace required 175 kilograms (kg) of coke to start
up a new incineration, it needed only 100 kg if it had been used the day
before; a second and third incineration on the same day would not require
any extra fuel, thanks to the compressed air; and those that followed
would call for only small amounts of extra energy." (Ref: Dachau, files
943 and 2111.)



    OK, let's see.  I left out an umlaut in Mu"ller, but otherwise got the
name and the company correct.  I knowingly did not remember the coke kg
figure - that is the kind of detail which goes early - but was correct
that he gave one for the second day, and we were both wrong about _no_
additional energy for cremations after the third - should have been "small
amounts."  I did not remember the compressed air, but my concern is with
remembering details that were not there, not forgetting certain details
completely. 

    Would you like to go on with this?


>>>	At the end is a recent examination of this of the memory of John
>>>Dean that has nothing to do with me or my opinion on the subject.
>>>Consider that if his recent memory is this bad, can any of us really
>>>trust our memories?  That is a discomforting thought but we can not
>>>assume we are the only ones exempt from this.
>>
>>    You certainly act as if you consider yourself exempt from this.  You
>>fail to back up your claims about what was said with quotes, sources,
>>URLs, article IDs, or precise DejaNews search strategy.
>	
>	Excuse me but just what does how I behave or post have to do with
>the validity of my descriptions and examples of how memory behaves?
>Nothing of course.  So why the deviation into a quasi-personal attack
>and away from the discussion of memory?

    How do you know you are remembering correctly what you have read about
memory?  Why should I believe that you are?  These are very legitimate
questions.


>>>	Further if memory of major events is considered to be evidence of
>>>truth then in fact some 5% of the US population has been abducted by
>>>space aliens.  (Into this you can also add ritual, satanic child abuse
>>>such as the McMartin preschool case.)
>>
>>    Leaving aside the lack of source for that 5% figure, 
>
>	USA Today survey about two years ago.

    I may just go back and look for it.  It would not surprise me greatly
if the figure represented those who _believe_ in the reality of alien
abduction.  Your memory has performed similar mutations in the past, for
example in the matter of the Yad Vashem registry of names (thinking that
the three million known names represented what Yad Vashem thought was the
total death toll - and BTW, you did not refer to YV by name but rather by
description) or your belief that the U. N. charter of human rights
specified the right to a jury trial.  (Someone who was not a regular
poster here posted the relevant text and for once you agreed that you
appeared to be wrong.) 

    Would you like me to pull up the DejaNews quotes for those, or do you
agree that what I remember above is correct?


>>do you seriously
>>believe children of that age are no more susceptible to being implanted
>>with false memories, or going along with an adult's suggestion to please
>>him/her?  Adults can do it, sure, but children are even more likely to
>>produce false testimonies for this reason.  So let's stick to something
>>more clearly comparable. 
>
>	The abductees are adults and claim it is happening to them as
>adults.  These people are no different from a spectrum of ages and
>whatever you might see on the street any day.  In fact I am unaware of
>any children reporting abductions.

    I was referring to the preschool cases to which you referred, as
should have been obvious.


>>>	In studying abduction phenomenon, there have been experiments where
>>>false memories were deliberately implanted in people's memories and
>>>very successfully, such that once the person came to "remember" the
>>>ficticious event he began adding details to that ficticious event,
>>>that is, he remembered more about that event that never occurred.
>>
>>    It would be nice if you documented your claims, really it would.  Why
>>should anyone believe you remembered the above accurately?  And of course
>>with no statistics this assertion of yours is useless.  You need to give
>>the success/failure rate, not just the anecdotal fact that in at least one
>>case a false memory was deliberately planted.
>
>	Would it not be better if you would read up on the abduction
>stories?  This study is so old and well known that it is included in
>TV specials on the subject.

    All I have to rely on is your memory of what you have seen and read.
And you keep telling us that memory is unreliable.  So why should I
believe your claims about what you have seen and read?

    I am not playing games here - the above point is _quite_ serious.  You
cannot expect me to be impressed with your claims about what has been
written about the unreliability of memory which were written from your own
admittedly unreliable memory.


>	However, what would statistics mean?  Are you under the impression
>that EVERYONE who was at Auschwitz reports gassings and such?

    No.


>Only
>those who adopted these memories would be speaking up.  A couple
>hundred out of tens of thousands would be more than enough as they
>would be the only vocal ones as there is no market for debunking their
>claims, e.g. alt.revisionism.

    No, go only with the guards and SK members.  Separate out those who
claim to be direct eyewitnesses from those who claim knowledge only by
hearsay.  There has been a lot of misreading - Al Baron thought Kitty Hart
claimed to be an eyewitness to events she _clearly_ reported as hearsay.


>	But again, why do you think a personal attack is a reasonable
>approach?

    I'll pass up the obivous riposte and explain once again why this is
not a personal attack.  You apparently do not appreciate the delicious
irony of writing that memory is completely unreliable while making very
precise assertions about studies (such as 5% of the population believing
they were abducted by aliens) for which you can only offer me your vague
memories as support.


>	The more you attack my memory the more you ESTABLISH my case that
>the memories of holocaust survivors are not reliable either.  

    No.  You are seriously deluded if you think that all people are like
you.  As you yourself once pointed out, anecdotal evidence is an oxymoron.

    Once again, a trip to DejaNews _after_ writing the above:

                                      
  Article 2 of 2
  
 Subject:      Re: Auschwitz: The 4-Million
 From:         mgiwer@combase.com (Matt Giwer)
 Date:         1996/02/18
 Message-Id:   <4g6qr1$5lo@wi.combase.com>
 Newsgroups:   soc.history,alt.revisionism,alt.censorship


[snip]

        And of course anecdotal and evidence do not belong connected
save as an example of an oxymoron.




>>>	Memory is an extraordinarily unreliable tool.  Criminal
>>>investigators know that it is essential to get to the witnesses as
>>>soon as possible and that the farther from the event, as little as a
>>>week, the less reliable the statement.
>>
>>    True enough, but the decay comes first with the details.  The fact of
>>an armed robber firing at least one shot into the air is well-remembered;
>>the kind of gun, clothing, words said, even sometimes the number of shots
>>fired can mutate in the trauma and the passage of time - often quite
>>quickly. 
>
>	FIRST from the details and then, decades later, most of the major
>items are gone.  In the beginning people "remembered" steaming,
>suffocation, electrocution, and burning alive with some minor
>component to gassing.  Today, those other methods are no longer
>"remembered" in favor of gassing.  Memories have certainly changed
>over the years.

    You confuse memories and rumors.


>	But note where they started, not with variations upon the gassing
>story but with many other ways of which gassing was only one of many
>and not a prominent one.  
>
>	As these memory changes can be documented from IMT testimony and
>other sources,

    Then do so.  Produce explicitly-claimed first-person eyewitness
testimony about steaming at Treblinka which is as prevalent as the such
testimony about gassing at Treblinka.  Be very sure you are not citing
rumor as if it is first person testimony.


>is there any question in your mind that the holocaust
>story, while relying upon memory, can not be determined by memory?

    Not memory alone, no.  But there are documents as well.  And there is
one testimony, that of a prisoner named Tauber, which Pressac checked
against physical evidence at Birkenau and found it to agree with a high
degree of accuracy.


>	That is why physical evidence is required first.
>


>>>	In the early 1980s an interesting phenomena was identified, people
>>>were appearing treatment of anxiety regarding the attrocities they
>>>participated in while in Vietnam. [...]

>>    Unfortunately, you give no source or statistics.  There is a certain
>>background level of general craziness.  The proper way to proceed in order
>>to use the above as evidence is to show that in the case of the Holocaust
>>the number of testimonies about gassing is actually within expected
>>background. 
>
>	But if you wish to want to go into the background level of crazies,
>it would behoove the holobuggers to make that test give the 5% level
>of crazy that would be 5000 per 100,000 "survivors.  Many fewer than
>5000 have been involved in creating these stories.  Further there has
>been no sampling of survivors, rather only those who choose to come
>forward have their stories recorded.   Anything relying upon
>volunteers is meaningless, indeed, as you point out, the holocaust is
>anecdotal, lacking in physical evidence to support it.
>
>	One more time, just for you.  I will take a look for the other
>references later.  This at least covers those acually in the service
>but not in Vietnam and if in Vietnam, not in combat.  

[HTML snipped]

    You did not give a date for the Sun article so that it may be
verified, especially verification for what appears to be an assertion
above that the population from which the poseurs were drawn were those
actually in service. 

    And what you posted still does not give any statistics by which we may
gauge the frequency of such false memories.  Anecdotal + evidence = ? 
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Dec  6 04:16:31 PST 1996
Article: 84046 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!news.alfred.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: juhu, Mr. Blackmore
Date: 3 Dec 1996 11:27:22 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <581kda$lk5@access5.digex.net>
References: <580dh2$jmd@netnews.upenn.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <580dh2$jmd@netnews.upenn.edu>, Silke-Maria  Weineck  wrote:
>We're waiting for your cites on memory.

    That was Matt Giwer (a/k/a PJO, a/k/a Leprechaun et al.), not Mr. 
Blackmore.  If Mr. Giwer could be taken as typical, he'd be living proof
of his own claim.  Unless it can be found on the web with the citations
already attached, Matt gives cites about as often as bulls give milk. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Sun Dec  8 12:02:19 PST 1996
Article: 84476 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!hookup!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.europe,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: The Founding Of Classical Asia
Followup-To: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Date: 8 Dec 1996 12:40:50 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <58euj2$sds@access1.digex.net>
References: <133695=varange@crl.com> <329dcfa3.7670956@news.cyberg8t.com> <329E0A82.600B@uci.edu> <329f1553.4746965@news.cyberg8t.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.europe:50572 alt.politics.nationalism.white:38220 alt.revisionism:84476 alt.politics.white-power:51555 soc.culture.usa:100581

In article <329f1553.4746965@news.cyberg8t.com>,
Arthur Ed LeBouthillier  wrote:
>On Thu, 28 Nov 1996 13:56:18 -0800, Auron Mukhopadhyay 
>wrote:

[snip]

>So? Definitely. We *HAVE* certain socio-economic interests, which we
>are entirely valid in pursuing: our existence as a distinct ethnic 
>group, a society which protects and promotes that and puts our
>interests above those of foreigners.

    There is a question as to what limits there are on how far one should
go in pursuing and promoting those interests.  Science cannot answer that
normative question.


>> I'm trying to counter spin *that* misuse of science.
>
>Yes, but if you try to portray that activity as science, you are
>lying.
>
>> Of course, you may say that since human populations
>>DO consider race - my original post is wrong by definition.  However, it
>>is in the mind that racial distinctions are continually propogated, it
>>is not promoted by our genes is my argument.
>
>I would disagree with that. In one of the newer sciences,
>socio-biology, it is being found that there are inherent traits toward
>kin selection. How would those behaviors evidence themselves in
>humans? Probably as that which is call racism.
>
>Therefore, there probably is a biologic behavioral component which is
>supportive of that thing called racism.

    However, this does not say that all behaviors connected with that
thing called racism are useful and proper behaviors.  There's nothing
wrong with selecting a mate from one's own ethnic kin.  If you refuse to
consider a woman as a potential mate just because she has black skin, even
though she would be your dream mate were she white, that is merely your
loss.

    Denying her equal rights under the law cannot be supported, because
there is no firm principle you can invoke to keep her from doing the same
to you should her group become more powerful.  Even on a racial-utility
basis, it could be said to be counterproductive behavior, if it leads to
intergroup warfare which causes members of your own race to be killed by
the other race which you are trying to oppress. 

    I have (I hope you will grant) certain biological interests which I an
entirely valid in pursuing: passing on my genes.  There are inherent
traits toward sexual attraction and engaging in sex which clearly advance
the survival of the species.  Thus you could say there is a biological
component supportive of that thing called rape.  What does this tell us
about whether rape should be a socially acceptable behavior or not?

    Posted/emailed.  (There seems to be another small rash of missing
articles around here.)
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Dec  9 05:19:19 PST 1996
Article: 84611 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!winternet.com!news3.mr.net!mr.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: kurt stele and his nuremberg "cite"
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 8 Dec 1996 00:19:06 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <58dj4a$e7t@access5.digex.net>
References: <32a3ee08.2352114@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <32a767c3.8793217@news.gte.net> <32a8c3b3.43381673@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <32a9d676.646796@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:84611 alt.usenet.kooks:31809

In article <32a9d676.646796@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Real soon!  wrote:
>[Hilberg] lied deliberately and willfully and knowingly.  That is a fact.

    It is not a proven fact about Hilberg.  However, it is a proven fact
about Matt Giwer, and Mr. Giwer even admitted it openly.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Mon Dec  9 08:05:58 PST 1996
Article: 84628 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!newsfeed.luth.se!news.luth.se!erix.ericsson.se!eua.ericsson.se!cnn.exu.ericsson.se!newshost.convex.com!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: JEWS TRY AGAIN TO CLOSE DOWN ZUNDELSITE ON WWW
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 8 Dec 1996 06:28:40 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <58e8p8$o7e@access4.digex.net>
References:   <32a9db77.1927812@news.gte.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:84628 alt.usenet.kooks:31813

In article ,
Daniel Keren  wrote:
[Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name of]
>somewhere@sometime.soon (Real soon!) writes:
># dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
>## An outright lie, as even this Nazi coward, who's afraid to post
>## under his own name, must know. Numerous human remains and ashes
>## were found in Treblinka, up to a depth of 7 meters.
>
># Been there, done that, tens of thousands of tons of remains are
># need.
>
>Hmm. 5 to 7 pounds of remains per corpse. In Treblinka it was
>even less, as there were many children and infants among the
>victims. But lets assume 6 pounds anyway. So we have:
>
>6*700,000*0.454/1000 = 1906.8 tons; lets round it to 2,000.

    That's metric tons; in English measurement, 6*700,000/2,000 = 2,100
tons.

    But yes, we have already seen other examples that the confessed liar
Matt Giwer cannot do simple arithmetic correctly (even as he sneers that
it is everyone else who lacks basic mathematical skills).


>Now, "tens of thousands" means at least 20,000. So, our "leading
>revisionist" erred by a factor of at least 10.

    The illiterate Matt Giwer (who sneers at the reading abilities of
others) thinks that "tens" might mean only 10.  So perhaps he's only off
by a factor of five. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Dec  9 13:27:51 PST 1996
Article: 84666 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Soviet movie
Date: 9 Dec 1996 15:13:07 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <58hrsj$6gr@access5.digex.net>
References: <32ab74ec.13711202@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <32ab74ec.13711202@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Endurance  wrote:

[snip]

>	What I want to draw your attention to is that in the movie the
>decapitated corpses were moved around and the limbs and torsoes moved
>freely, that is, rigor mortis was not apparent.  And at the same time
>the corpses showed no signs of decomposition, no bloating,
>discoloration or the like, that is, if the stage of rigor mortis could
>not have been passed as there was no sign of decomposition. 

    What the scientific illiterate and confessed liar Matt Giwer does not
tell you is that a) rigor mortis is not immediate, and depends on
temperature, and b) the first stage of decomposition occurs without
external signs.  According to the website below, in temperate regioins a
cold body is stiff only through about the 36th hour after death.


 http://darwin.uio.no:8080/~mostarke/forens_ent/afterdeath.html


    I would agree that if such a movie exists - something for which we
currently have only the word of the confessed liar Matt Giwer - it was
almost certainly faked.  However, in light of the information on the above
website, Mr. Giwer has no physical evidence whatsoever that the corpses
shown in this alleged movie were murdered for the purpose of making the
movie.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Dec  9 13:27:52 PST 1996
Article: 84670 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: A Nazi replies to a War Criminal
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 9 Dec 1996 15:38:37 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <58htcd$7ok@access5.digex.net>
References: <32A2CDAA.7C19@rio.com>  <32aba577.44424667@news.atlcom.net> <32ac6227.132534@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:38303 alt.revisionism:84670 alt.politics.white-power:51627

In article <32ac6227.132534@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Force  wrote:
>On Mon, 09 Dec 1996 05:42:20 GMT, dckom@atlcom.net (dckom) wrote:
>
>>Germany started the war, the holocaust happened, Hitler was a madman. 

[discussion of Bomber Harris and Churchill snipped]

>	And then you have to consider the mad Roosevelt also.  This evil
>madman who imprisoned tens of thousands of US citizens without cause
>or justification.
>
>	Out of curiosity, just what did the "mad" Hitler do that makes him
>stand out in your mind?

    I can think of a few things just off the top of my head.

    Revoking the citizenship of tens of thousands of Jewish Germans,
imprisoning them (and hundreds of thousands of other non-German Jews) 
without cause or justification - even before we get to the question of
slaughtering them.

    Drawing up a completely unrealistic timetable for conquering the
Soviet Union.  You'd think he'd have learned from Napoleon's mistake.

    Calling for a total war against the Soviet Union, and allowing
merciless treatment of captured Russian POWs.  This has nothing to do with
the Geneva Convention.  Rather, one of the German officers complained that
this behavior was counterproductive, as it made the Russians afraid to
surrender and caused them to fight to the bitter end.

    Declaring war on the United States before he had subdued the Russians
also turned out to be a really bad career move.  It gave the U. S. free
license to help the British without having to come up with its own pretext
for declaring war.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Tue Dec 10 05:42:55 PST 1996
Article: 84713 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!wesley.videotron.net!news-penn.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-stkh.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nazi Mass Murder in the Ukraine
Date: 8 Dec 1996 06:14:25 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <58e7uh$o26@access4.digex.net>
References: <57n177$81t@rks1.urz.tu-dresden.de> <57npvv$8q0@juliana.sprynet.com> <57uv7j$4tg@rks1.urz.tu-dresden.de>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article <57uv7j$4tg@rks1.urz.tu-dresden.de>,
Ulrich Roessler  wrote:
>rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>
>: I am not sure that I can agree with this.  That masses of people were
>: being shot for various reasons seems to have been the case.  As to how
>: many of these reports were purposely exaggerated, is also difficult to 
>: assess, but this was indeed claimed by the authors of the reports
>: themselves. 
>
>Who, Where and when please quote these claims?

    I recall seeing an assertion by Greg Raven that this happened during
the Einsatzgruppen trial conducted by the U. S.  That would be found in
the Green Series.  While Greg Raven is not exactly the world's most
trustworthy source of information, this is not the kind of thing that
Raven usually lies about.

    One reason to give credibility to such a claim is that we saw a
similar inflation during the Vietnam War.  However, that hardly helps the
"revisionist" cause.  Mass murder is mass murder, despite Mr. Raven's
illusion that reducing the count of victims makes it somehow less of a
mass murder.  The essential point is that if the numbers were inflated,
that means the report writers knew that their superiors wanted to see
reports of lots of Jews killed.  This is evidence that having lots of dead
Jews was one of the objectives actively sought by those superiors.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Dec 10 05:42:56 PST 1996
Article: 84725 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dresden
Date: 9 Dec 1996 21:27:40 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <58ihqs$lvh@access5.digex.net>
References:  <32A897B8.3158@rio.com> <58d9o0$21u@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <32AB6422.587A@conterra.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <32AB6422.587A@conterra.com>,
Bob Whitaker   wrote:

[snip]

>	Hey, Your Lordship McVay, OBC, no less.  You declare loudly that
>you're  worried to death about war crimes on the Axis side.    But when
>your fellow clone Chuck Ferree bragged that he strafed civilians
>fighting on the Allies' side, you did not say a single word against this
>kind of murder.
>	Good old clone Doublethink!


    Perhaps, Mr. Whitaker, you would be so good as to tell us where Mr.
Ferree "bragged" that he strafed civilians?




Subject:      Re: A Nazi replies to a War Criminal
From:         Chuck Ferree 
Date:         1996/12/09
Message-Id:   <32AC0E46.66A@rio.com>

[snip]

flew fighter planes, completed 67 missions in the ETO. If any
                                                       ^^^^^^
civilians were strafed by me or any pilot in my flight, it wasn't
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
because we sought out civilian targets. As opposed to your Hitler Nazi
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^




    We know that Matt Giwer has no assets worth pursuing in a libel
action.  How about you? 

    Posted/emailed to Messrs. Whitaker and Ferree.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Dec 10 05:42:57 PST 1996
Article: 84729 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.dacom.co.kr!usenet.kornet.nm.kr!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: mtl.general,ont.general,edm.general,can.general,bc.general,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.lebanon,qc.general,qc.politique
Subject: Re: JEWS TRY AGAIN TO CLOSE DOWN ZUNDELSITE ON WWW
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: 9 Dec 1996 21:34:47 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <58ii87$mrc@access5.digex.net>
References:   <32aba194.14754856@news.direct.ca> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca ont.general:61981 can.general:99212 bc.general:58577 alt.revisionism:84729 soc.culture.canada:103137 soc.culture.lebanon:26537 qc.general:12678 qc.politique:13925

Followups set to alt.revisionism only.

In article ,
Andrew Bernstein  wrote:

>For the record, more than 72,000 people dies at Auschwitz.

    Correct.  The death registers containing those 72,000 names don't even
cover the entire period of camp operation.  I doubt even the revisionists
are stupid enough to claim that this means nobody died in those other
months.  (I suppose I should know better than to predict some maximum
amount of stupidity for a revisionist argument, though.)


>They once killed 200,000 people there in a single day.

    Not correct.  Wherever did you get this one?

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Dec 10 05:42:57 PST 1996
Article: 84735 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nol.net!df.lth.se!news.lth.se!solace!news.stealth.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.society.conservatism,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.misc,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.usa,alt.conspiracy,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.equality,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: A Nazi replies to a War Criminal
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: 9 Dec 1996 21:19:01 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 103
Message-ID: <58ihal$lna@access5.digex.net>
References: <32A2CDAA.7C19@rio.com>  <32ac5f66.1153919@news.gte.net>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.society.conservatism:63919 alt.politics.usa.constitution:105595 alt.politics.nationalism.white:38344 alt.revisionism:84735 alt.politics.white-power:51665 soc.culture.usa:100673 alt.conspiracy:118600 talk.politics.misc:520362 alt.politics.correct:162869

In article <32ac5f66.1153919@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Force  commits libel:

>On Sun, 08 Dec 1996 09:14:33 GMT, jstuart@tristar.org (Jim Stuart)
>wrote:

[snip]

>	In fact you are missing the point.  You say intimidated and abused.
>The Chuckle Fairy says that he participated in MURDERING a few hundred
>of them.  And the Chuckle Fairy is proud of being a murderer.  
>
[snip]

>>Really, Chuck?  So, tell me, should we respect admitted war criminals
>>Chuck?  And who, you might ask fits this category?  You, Chuck;  the
>>fellow who was so proud to say that he straffed and bombed civilians.
>
>	More.  He has claimed that he participated in murdering the guards
>at Dachau.  You remember, the case where they were lined up and
>machinegunned?  Those guards who had only been assigned there two
>weeks before when the surrender negotiations started?  Those men who
>had nothing to do with the conditions.  He murdered them.  
>
>	To bad we can't take away his citizenship and ship him to Germany
>for trial.  


    Given that he has just committed libel against Chuck Ferree, too bad
Matt Giwer has no assets worth going after.  Note that in the excerpt
below, Chuck said that a) he didn't participate, only witnessed, b) was
not proud of it, and c) agreed that what happened at Dachau was a war
crime.




  ARTICLE 4 OF 12

Subject:      Re: massacre of 500 guards at Dachau
From:         Chuck Ferree 
Date:         1996/06/23
Message-Id:   <31CDBF94.11E@rio.com>
Newsgroups:   alt.revisionism

Chuck Ferree wrote:
I witnessed the machine-gunning of about 150-160 German guards who had
been captured. A Lt. set up 2 .30 caliber machine guns, one in the
street, and the other on a rooftop across the street. The guards were
brought out in groups of 30-40, lined up against a wall and cut down.
Former inmates were permitted to shoot any one still alive in the head
with the Lts. .45 pistol.
This was a war crime covered up by General George Patton, no one was
punished, and the dead guards were still on the ground when I flew my
passenger back to Frankfurt. At the time it happened, I heard the fire
as I returned in a jeep with a driver from viewing the freight train
filled with 2-3 thousand corpses of people who had died from
starvation, Typhus after having been shuttled from camp to camp and
returned finally to Dachau. The German guards shot many who were still
alive, as they tried to crawl from the RR cars. Hundreds of more dead
were stacked or piled near the crematorium which was still burning,
when my group entered the camp shortly after noon on April 29th. 1945.
SS guards in their guard towers had put up a fight, and were killed in
their towers by Infantrymen from the 45th. Division. A few tried to
surrender, but were shot as they left the towers.

[snip]

No excuses, the men who did the shooting had seen steady combat since
Anzio, and then they liberated Dachau which could be smelled for three
miles, and saw all the dead inmates, starved to death, shot down
half-dead, zombies, they cracked and I don't condone what they did. I
didn't participate, but even though I knew it was wrong, I didn't feel
much pity. This was the second liberated camp I had seen in two weeks.

 More SS guards were killed in the exchange of fire than were captured
and executed.


  Way to go.  Feel proud that you shot disarmed men?

Not proud at all. [...]

[snip]

Sorry, Jeff, they got it almost right. It did happen, no one could
have stopped the crazy Lt. Bushyhead, an American Indian, who just
went nuts after seeing how cruel these German guards had been to
helpless people for years and years. It was a war crime, but listen to
Griswald, he paints a picture as if we shot a bunch of innocent little
babies, like the SS and German troops. Those Americans had been in
steady combat from Anzio Beach-head through all of Italy and three
years causualty rates of 60-80%. They were not to be messed with.
Chuck



    Posted/emailed to Chuck Ferree.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Dec 10 05:42:58 PST 1996
Article: 84824 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!news-stkh.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-lond.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-paris.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Soviet movie
Supersedes: <58hrsj$6gr@access5.digex.net>
Date: 9 Dec 1996 15:22:49 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <58hsep$702@access5.digex.net>
References: <32ab74ec.13711202@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <32ab74ec.13711202@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Endurance  wrote:

[snip]

>	What I want to draw your attention to is that in the movie the
>decapitated corpses were moved around and the limbs and torsoes moved
>freely, that is, rigor mortis was not apparent.  And at the same time
>the corpses showed no signs of decomposition, no bloating,
>discoloration or the like, that is, if the stage of rigor mortis could
>not have been passed as there was no sign of decomposition. 

>[Goes on to claim that the corpses shown must have been murdered to make
>the movie]

    What the scientific illiterate and confessed liar Matt Giwer does not
tell you is that a) rigor mortis is not immediate, and depends on
temperature, and b) the first stage of decomposition occurs without
external signs.  According to the website below, in temperate regions a
cold body may become un-stiff about 36 hours after death.


 http://darwin.uio.no:8080/~mostarke/forens_ent/afterdeath.html


    I would agree that if such a movie exists - something for which we
currently have only the word of the confessed liar Matt Giwer - it was
almost certainly faked.  However, in light of the information on the above
website, Mr. Giwer has no physical evidence whatsoever that the corpses
shown in this alleged movie were murdered for the purpose of making the
movie.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Dec 12 08:25:19 PST 1996
Article: 85256 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!news.bconnex.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: kurt stele and his nuremberg "cite"
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 9 Dec 1996 18:07:09 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <58i62t$eej@access5.digex.net>
References: <32a3ee08.2352114@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <32a3a683.39689818@news.srv.ualberta.ca> < <32ac5eb9.980795@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <32ac5eb9.980795@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Force  wrote:

>	Do you reallly think the lurkers are dumb enough to accept your
>unsupported and otherwise undocumented claims?  

    Well, the confessed liar Matt Giwer would appear to think that the
lurkers are dumb enough to accept his unsupported and otherwise
undocumented claims, even after he has been caught in mistake after
mistake and lie after lie.  So why not? 

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html


-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Dec 13 12:56:23 PST 1996
Article: 85424 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Mr. Giwer's mailbomb
Supersedes: <58rssp$9a5@access5.digex.net>
Date: 13 Dec 1996 10:37:21 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 98
Message-ID: <58rt7h$9jm@access5.digex.net>
References: <56cpto$cj9@rockall.cc.strath.ac.uk> <32ad0c6b.10517074@news.demon.co.uk>  <32add30c.85919@pubnews.demon.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <32add30c.85919@pubnews.demon.co.uk>,
Fergus McClelland  wrote:
>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
>>redux@perdrix.demon.co.uk (Fergus McClelland) writes:
>About a claim by Danny Keren about Matt Giwer "e-mail bombing".
>
>># WE do not know this. It has been claimed. 
>
>DKeren responded.
>>It has been proved. 
>
>Danny, where is your objectivity? Saying "It has been proved" says
>nothing, without some sort of  _independant_  exhaustive report.

    Because!  I!  Say!  So!  ISPs are not in the habit of releasing
"exhaustive reports" to the general public on such matters.  But in this
case, I would say that seeing a relationship between Mr. Giwer's sudden
departure from Netcom, and the mailbomb complaint filed shortly before
said departure, is _not_ a "post hoc ergo propter hoc" fallacy. 


>As
>there has not been one, it has NOT "been proved". Say that it has been
>proved to your satisfaction and I shall only argue with your opinion.
>As things stand, saying an absolute "It has been proved" only makes
>you look silly, dishonest or both.

    It certainly appeared to have been proved to Netcom's satisfaction.
Else why would Mr. Giwer have made such an abrupt departure?


>Me
>># IT HAS BEEN CLAIMED that Mr Giwer sent an e-mail bomb. However, 
>># this claim has been refuted by Mr Giwer.

    You need to learn the difference between "refuted" and "denied." 

re.fute \ri-'fyu:t\ vt [L refutare, fr. re- + -futare to beat - more at
   BEAT] 1: to overthrow by argument, evidence, or proof 2: to prove to be
   false or erroneous - re.fut.er n

Mr. Giwer _denied_ that he sent a mailbomb.  He did not deny that he sent
the email; rather he _asserted_ that the email was solicited.  However, he
offered no _evidence_, let alone proof.  Ergo, no refutation, merely
denial. 


>DKeren:
>>No. He admitted to having sent a 5-meg e-mail. He justified it,
>>as I recall, as being a response to one of Mr. McVay's questions.

    It should be noted that although he was specifically asked for
evidence of this alleged question, he never produced the question which he
claimed justified the message, let alone proof that this question was
actually asked by Mr. McVay.


>Aha! So, now you are saying that Mr Giwer sent a 5 meg e-mail to McVay
>and _gave a reason_.  Not the same as a mail bomb at all.

    Let me get this straight.  If you ask me for so-and-so's email
address, you claim I am perfectly justified in sending you a reply
containing that address replicated 500,000 times?  If you ask me for a
copy of a posting where someone provided evidence for some claim, I am
justified in mailing you the complete text of one month's worth of
alt.revisionism postings as long as it includes the post you asked for?
Let's just say that if you believe that, you have a distinctly minority
opinion. 

    By your logic above, the only thing that qualifies as a mail bomb is
an accident!  After all, if I send you a 5 meg email for the specific
purpose of harassing and annoying you, that IS a REASON, is it not?  And
so according to you, apparently that makes it not the same as a mail bomb. 

    Could you perhaps give your definition of an email bomb?  Inquiring
minds want to know.


[big snip]

>So, if you are a Jew, you believe that Moses was a Jew who was found
>in the bullrushes, went up a mountain and got some laws from a god.
>You also believe that Noah was a Jew who built an ark and filled it
>with animals and survived a great flood. If you do not believe these
>things, then how can you be a Jew?

    Quite easily, actually.  Unlike Christian doctrine, belief in the
literal truth of every word of the Torah is NOT a requirement.  Following
the laws is the requirement.  And actually, even a Jew who fails to follow
the laws is (by Jewish religious law) still a Jew - just not a very good
one. 

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Dec 13 16:01:00 PST 1996
Article: 85432 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!node2.frontiernet.net!usenet.logical.net!dciteleport.com!worldnet.att.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Kube Reports His Work: 10 Weeks, 55,000 Murdered
Date: 13 Dec 1996 12:33:09 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <58s40l$eeg@access5.digex.net>
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In article <19961212204700.PAA14198@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
Tutu101  wrote:
>How do we know that these reports from Kube are authentic?  Who found
>them, when, where?  It should be mentioned that Kube was assassinated in
>1943 by Russian partisans.  Where  is the "convergence of evidence" which
>authenticates this communication?

    1.  The Einsatzgruppen reports were introduced as evidence at the
trial conducted by the United States at Nuremberg.  None of the defendants
challenged their authenticity.  The only objection was that some of the
figures had been inflated, rather like the way enemy body count statistics
were inflated by the United States military during the Vietnam war.

    2.  There are personal diaries and Wehrmacht records which make
mention of similar activities, as well as photographs of executions (taken
in violation of orders, it should be noted - see the SS court verdict in
the matter of Max Taubner).

    3.  At the time the executions were going on, British Intelligence
intercepted coded radio messages containing information of a similar
nature.  This evidence was never introduced at the trial as it involved
the Ultra secret, which remained classified for many years after the war. 

    These facts lend support to the authenticity of the Kube report.  At
this point if you wish to claim that the defendants were tortured or
threatened into remaining silent about forged reports, and that the
British planted forged records in their intelligence files, and that all
the other records were forged, the burden falls upon you to provide
evidence of that. 

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Dec 14 07:54:58 PST 1996
Article: 85533 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.insinc.net!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Mr. Gandhi's "handle"
Date: 13 Dec 1996 14:13:33 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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In article <19961212201400.PAA12858@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
Tutu101  wrote:
>Why does the mythical character Rajiv Gandhi always rely on epithets to
>attempt to prove his point?  Mr. Giwer is a "drunk",
>"criminal"....Bellinger  is a "liar", "troll"...Tom Moran is a
>"moron".....I think we get the picture of what you are, o great champion
>of the truth.  By the way, when did you decide to adopt the name of an
>assassinated Prime Minister of India as your "handle"?

    Probably about the time my friend John Smith decided to adopt the name
of a famous Englishman of the colonial era as his handle.  Or maybe it was
about the time my friend Andy Johnson decided to adopt the name of Abraham
Lincoln's successor as his handle.  Then again, it might have been as long
ago as the time my friend John Jones took as his nickname the name of an
illustrious American naval officer, or as recently as the time my friend
Susan Smith decided to call herself by the name of an infamous child
murderer. 

    Here's a clue if you and Mr. Giwer are still having a problem with
this: if you live in a large metropolitan area, check out your local
telephone directory for the name "Gandhi" and see how many listings you
find.  It shouldn't take a 163 IQ to figure it out.

    Posted/emailed to the mythical Tutu101 - I don't find _anyone_ with
that last name in any of the DC-area phone books.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Dec 14 07:54:59 PST 1996
Article: 85612 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.bctel.net!news.insinc.net!ocean.netrover.com!amberjack.netrunner.net!news2.agis.net!agis!newsgod1.agis.net!agis!news3.agis.net!agis!cancer.vividnet.com!news.wildstar.net!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photograph: Hirt's Letter Regarding the Gassings in Natzweiler
Date: 13 Dec 1996 13:00:37 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 323
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In article <57nc7a$3ed@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>   100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) writes:
>>  rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>  
>>>     100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) writes:
>>>>    rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>    
>>>>1/ Kramer said that he got from Hirt cyanide salts to gas about one
>>>>hundred of earmarked Jews, that he did it and delivered the corpses to
>>>>the mortuary of Hirt.
>  
>>>So Kramer said he received cyanide salts from Hirt?  And where did Hirt
>>>receive them from?  Do you happen to have a document which shows
>>>Hirt ordering cyanide salts?  Now, would these be the one and the same
>>>Zyklon B we have all heard so much about?  If Kramer was in charge of
>>>the executions, why did he not apply for the salts himself?  
>  
>> Hirt was a physician and worked in the Civil Hospices, the biggest
>> hospital of Strasbourg, that has its pharmacy, its laboratory of
>> chemistry, aso. As it is a salt that was used, that wasn't Zyklon B.
>> Kramer told he had to add water to the salt in order to begin the
>> gassing and Hirt said that the salt was a cyanide. A physician can
>> easily make it, for example by mixing an anhydrous acid (tartaric,
>> oxalic, citric) with KCN or NaCN. If Hirt was unsure how to do it, the
>> laboratory of chemistry was there to help.
>> 
>> All these products are very common and easy to find in the pharmacy.
>> Kramer told he had about a liter of salts for the four gassings.
>
>
>Of course you can prove that Hirt actually received these salts and sent
>them on to a camp?  Of course you can't.  it is all speculation on your
>part. 

    As is Mr. Blackmore's speculation below that the gas chambers could
have been built for legal executions. 

    Here is the Blackmore method of defense at work.

    "Your honor, the defense produced documents from a gun shop which they
claim show that my client purchased the handgun which was used to kill the
victim.  However, they have not provided any proof that he bought any
bullets.  Furthermore they have not produced documents from a wholesaler
that the shop which sold him the gun bought that gun from the wholesaler. 
Furthermore they have not produced documents from the manufacturer to
confirm that they made a gun with that serial number and sold it to the
wholesaler.  Since they have not done all of this, there is not sufficient
evidence to convict my client."


>>>>2/ A lot of letters of Hirt to Kramer, another SS of the Ahnenerbe and
>>>>vice versa still exist, as the one above, planning the gassing.
>  
>>>All of this planning for this one little gassing??  All these
>>>documents?
>>>Then I ask where all the documents are relating to the mass gassing 
>>>of Jews at Auschwitz......

    Hold that thought - we'll get back to it later.



>>  I told already these gassings were supported by the Ahnenerbe. It was
>>  of special interest for these Nazis to have anatomical studies on
>>  "earmarked" Jews. I said too that the breakthrough of the 2DB was so
>>  quick that the Germans left without destroying documents. See per
>>  example the Nuremberg documents 016-NO, 085-NO, 086-NO, 087-NO,
>>  116-NO, ..
>
>This is not an answer to my question.  You are simply dancing.  Anatomical
>studies of "earmarked Jews".  Do you know how ridiculous this sounds?

    All of Nazi "racial science" sounds equally ridiculous.  Does Mr. 
Blackmore deny it was taken seriously at the time?  Or is he merely
ignorant? 

    An interesting defense tactic indeed.  "Your honor, all the evidence
against my client must be forged, because he'd have been pretty stupid to
commit a crime like that."  Criminals aren't usually known for their work
in rocket science.



[snip]

>>  >>  3/ Testimonies from Natzweiler exist about the gassings, as documents
>>  >>  about the gas chamber. The gas chamber remained.
>>  >
>>  >Yet this gas chamer has never been thoroughly examined, to the best
>>  >of my knowledge.  No, I take that back.  It was examined by none other
>>  >than Robert Faurisson and proclaimed a fraud.

    It was also examined by David Cole, who pronounced it genuine and
Robert Faurisson the fraud.  And Mr. Blackmore knows this. 

    Witnesses are sworn to tell the truth.  But they are also sworn to
tell the _whole_ truth.  Mr. Blackmore seems not to understand the
importance of this.  There is a phrase: "lying by omission."  Mr.
Blackmore has just given us an example of the technique.


>>  Faurisson would say that an elephant is a pet if this could suit him.
>>  The French Army (a commander and a group of officers) visited the camp
>>  in Dec 44 and found a gas chamber, with lighting, a gas tight door
>>  with a secured porthole, a device of introduction, an airing with a
>>  fan (file n°3 in the trial of Natzweiler by the permanent military
>>  court of Strasbourg).
>

>And you can prove that this alleged gas chamber was constructed by the
>Nazis and not the French, who purportedly "discovered" it.

    There are documents concerning its construction.  What more does Mr. 
Blackmore want?  Confessions?  But he rejects those.  Films of its
construction by men in SS uniforms?  But those could have been staged by
actors. 

    So I wish he would please explain what he would accept as proof.  From
his tactics here I cannot think of anything that he would not find some
means to reject. 


>And the Nazis just left it there for them to refer to as evidence.

    Once again: "Your honor, the gun which the prosecution claims was
found in my client's car must have been planted, and the ballistic tests
linking the gun to the bullets which killed the victim must be a forgery,
because no criminal of even ordinary intelligence would fail to get rid of
the murder weapon."  Do anyone really think the jury will buy that one? 

    But now let's go back and compare this latest Blackmore defense logic
with his earlier statement

>>>Then I ask where all the documents are relating to the mass gassing 
>>>of Jews at Auschwitz......

    Blackmore logic: if there are no documents at Auschwitz, this proves
there was no gassing because there MUST have been many documents and
written orders to carry out such a plan.  However, if there are lots of
documents around, it STILL doesn't prove gassing.  Instead, it proves that
they must be forged because it would be stupid to leave so many documents
lying around with proof of such a crime!

    Heads-I-win-tails-you-lose reasoning at its finest.


>The Nazis really were stupid, weren't they?  Building a "gas chamber" at
>Dachau weeks before the end of the war. leaving a gas chamber intact at
>Natzweiler....all so the allies could have all the proof they needed that
>people were being "gassed".....I'm ready for my close up, Mr. 
>DeMille......Aside from all this, there are such things as legal gas
>chambers and legal executions.  We have gas chambers in the U.S. where
>people like the Rosenbergs were executed for treason.  The Nazis
>certainly could have constructed one or two legal gas chambers to execute
>criminals.

    Typical defense lawyer tactic.  "My client was nowhere near the scene
of the crime.  Furthermore, all the evidence was forged.  Not only that,
it was self-defense."

    Mr. Blackmore's evidence that these gas chambers were constructed for
those purposes?  None, of course.  Evidence that they were constructed for
other purposes?  Letter from Rascher to Himmler; letter from Hirt.  Does
Mr. Blackmore really think the jury will buy the evidence-free explanation
over the explanation that has evidence? 


[snip]

>An Institute for Anatomy, where corpses are dissected and preserved as a
>matter of routine.  You must never have been in an Institute either.  By
>the way, not all of the corpses in the tanks were headless. 

    It is not a matter of routine for an institute of anatomy to resort to
murder to procure its specimens.


>>  >>  6/ Testimonies from the mortuary exist about the delivery of these
>>  >>  corpses with the same dates than Natzweiler (they were informed about
>>  >>  the day and hour of each delivery and all the corpses were still
>>  >>  warm), what Hirt said about these, and his final order to cut and
>>  >>  incinerate the heads before he left.
>

>Well, if you want to believe all that, fine.  Fact is, there is
>undoubtedly a deeper explanation to all of this than you are capable of
>giving at the moment. 

    BECAUSE!  I!  SAY!  SO!

    If this is a fact, surely Mr. Blackmore can provide evidence of it. 

    We're waiting.


[snip]

>>  >>  7/ The selection of the earmarked Jews in Auschwitz is mentioned in
>>  >>  the chronicle.
>>  >
>>  >Are you then saying that all of the victims were Jews?
>>  
>>  Yes.
>
>Really???!!?  Since when are Jews uncircumcised?  Since when are
>Jews asian?  I will inform you that I have seen photos of these corpses.

    But that is merely Mr. Blackmore's worthless eyewitness testimony. 
Where may those photos be found?


[snip]

>> Now,
>>  how could Henrypierre guess that the victims had to be tattooed as
>>  they were in quarantine at Birkenau ? Was there many camps with the
>>  habit of tattooing the inmates who weren't immediately killed ?
>
>Do you know the year when tattooing of prisoners ceased at Auschwitz?
>I have met a number of Jews who claim to have been in Auschwitz and they
>had NO tattoo.

    As far as I know, the practice never ceased.  There were Jews who were
selected for work but sent on to other camps rather than kept as
registered prisoners at Auschwitz.  Those Jews would have been in
Auschwitz but would not have had an Auschwitz tattoo.


>>  His first testimony was the Dec 16, 1944, before Birkenau was
>>  liberated by the Russians. Moreover, if he didn't even know that the
>>  victims came from Natzweiler, he didn't know that they came in fact
>>  from Birkenau.
>>  
>>  How then could he make up these numbers, how could he guess that they
>>  were previously in quarantine at Birkenau and the habit of Auschwitz ?
>
>That is a pertinent question.  How could he?

    This question assumes that the numbers WERE made up.  The simplest
explanation is that the witness was telling the truth, that the numbers
were genuine.  If constructing a false testimony which is consistent with
other facts would require knowledge the witness could not have possessed
at the time of the testimony, then one must either say the witness made a
fantastically lucky guess, or that the testimony is genuine.

    I'm sure Mr. Blackmore favors the "lucky guess" explanation.  Or maybe
the witness had psychic powers.  Or maybe he had a secret radio receiver
picking up the secret radio transmitter in Auschwitz.  Mr. Blackmore
starts with the unshakeable assumption that the Natzweiler charges are
false, no matter how much evidence is produced - remember, Mr. Blackmore
seems to have insinuated that the more evidence which is produced, the
more stupid the Nazis would have to have been to leave it around, so the
more it proves that all the evidence was forged.  So it appears he will
look for any explanation, no matter how fanciful, to explain how the
evidence could all have been forged. 


>>  Then, the victims came from Birkenau. The chronicle mentions the
>>  selection by Beger from the Ahnenerbe and the quarantine (entry: Jun
>>  15, 1943).
>>  
>>  They traveled to Rothau and were gassed by Kramer according to his own
>>  testimony,
>
>In his initial detailed statement Kramer denied the existence of gas
>chambers.  His interrogators were not pleased with that response.  So, he
>was induced to give a second statement, which I reject.  Witches were
>similarly induced to claim that they had kissed the devil's ass.  Do you
>believe them? 

    The devil is not in the habit of leaving around documents written in
fiery letters to confirm that fact.  The Nazis at Natzweiler did leave
around documents supporting the existence of a gas chamber.  Oh, that's
right, they're all forged because it would have been stupid to leave them
around.



>> at four dates suited with Hirt (testimonies: the driver of
>>  the van; a farmer - the gas chamber is very close to the farm - ;
>>  several inmates and among them a man who built the introduction
>>  device; the two preparators of the mortuary; a secretary of the
>>  Ahnenerbe who typed the list of the selection, aso).
>
>If these people were gassed, then I can only say that these were legal
>gassing of people who had committed some sort of crime.

    BECAUSE!  I!  SAY!  SO!

    "Your honor, since it would have been stupid for my client to leave
any evidence of his crime, all the evidence against him was forged.  The
defense must prove it wasn't.  Moreover, he probably killed the victim in
self-defense.  I will offer no evidence for this; the defense must prove
he didn't (but since all their evidence is forged and perjured, they
can't)."

    Now, just how often do you think a defense attorney would succeed with
that tactic?  Yet that is EXACTLY what Mr. Blackmore is doing. 


>>  >>  Now, I'm curious to see how you will manage to uphold that no gassing
>>  >>  occurred in Natzweiler ?
>>  
>>  >Now, I am curious as to how you will answer my questions.
>>  
>>  Now, I'm still curious to see how you will manage to uphold that no
>>  gassing occurred in Natzweiler.
>
>What you write runs contrary to logic and the evidence.

    Revisionist David Cole disagrees.  And Mr. Blackmore knows that.  He
just chose to omit that fact, citing Faurisson as authority even though
Cole has produced evidence of Faurisson's underhanded behavior in the
affair.


[remainder deleted]

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Dec 14 07:55:00 PST 1996
Article: 85613 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.bctel.net!news.insinc.net!news.bc.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.censorship,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: The Great Debate
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 13 Dec 1996 13:11:52 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <58s698$g3q@access5.digex.net>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:85613 alt.censorship:112346 alt.politics.nationalism.white:38807 alt.politics.white-power:52034 alt.usenet.kooks:32036

In article <32b18d79.2370672@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Arleigh Burke  wrote:
>On Wed, 11 Dec 1996 22:04:39, joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg)
>wrote:
>>>it's McVay who avoids debate.
>>
>>Then tell your asshole buddy Zundel that McVay and a bunch of other amateurs 
>>are here, and are prepared to begin the debate, say, now...
>>
>>... and watch him cower.  
>
>	McVay?  You mean the man who ran away from me when I attempted to
>engage him in debate?  Of course he left making all kinds of personal
>attacks but were those true he would have hands down won that debate. 
>
>	BTW:  McVay is an amateur also.  

    And Matt Giwer is a self-confessed liar.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

    This is in addition to being illiterate and incapable of doing simple 
arithmetic correctly.


>=====
>If history has taught us anything it is that history will be revised.

    It certainly teaches us that the self-confessed liar Matt Giwer will
"revise" the history of what was said in prior exchanges.  Unfortunately
he can never seem to produce article headers and quotes or DejaNews
references which would support his claims.  Why, I wonder, is that so?

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Dec 14 08:41:40 PST 1996
Article: 3197 of alt.fan.ernst-zundel
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.insinc.net!news.bc.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel
Subject: Re: 961207: The New American Man (but it's the Same Old Ingrid)
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 13 Dec 1996 10:35:42 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 16
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:85630 alt.fan.ernst-zundel:3197

In article <32ac9975.11264842@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Force  wrote:

>	Rather perhaps the most dispicable human trait is hypocrisy.

    Even Matt Giwer agrees Matt Giwer has despicable traits.  He has also
openly admitted to lying.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Dec 14 09:55:30 PST 1996
Article: 85640 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: New Order for Nizkor?
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 13 Dec 1996 09:36:25 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <58rpl9$79q@access5.digex.net>
References: <32a619b4.1671312@news.gte.net> <32a9f172.7554109@news.gte.net> <58ged1$u8o@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> <32ac378b.31189600@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <32ac378b.31189600@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Endurance  wrote:
>On 9 Dec 1996 07:16:49 GMT, schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard
>Schultz) wrote:
>>Just how could someone so terminally stupid as to be unable to differentiate
>>between byproducts of coke production and byproducts of coke combustion
>>be taken seriously by anyone?  Even someone so terminally stupid as to
>>not believe in the holocaust?
>
>	Believe?  An act of faith?  That is what I have been saying all
>along.  I do hope your belief is a comfort to you.  But don't try to
>pass your beliefs off as true.

    Yes, Matt Giwer claims the exclusive right to pass off his provably
erroneous beliefs as true without need for documentation, on subjects such
as law, chemistry, geography, the United Nations, etc.  Along with his
outright lies, of course. 

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html




-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Sun Dec 15 08:12:14 PST 1996
Article: 85832 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nova.thezone.net!hookup!newsfeed.dacom.co.kr!usenet.kornet.nm.kr!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: edm.general,can.general,alt.revisionism,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: Gauleiter Gross Wants to be Freenet Fuehrer,or Goebbels
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 15 Dec 1996 09:27:09 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <5911rt$koh@access4.digex.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net
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In article <32b3428f.19946508@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Arleigh Burke  wrote:
>On Fri, 13 Dec 1996 16:43:43 -0500, Rob  wrote:
>>Now, now...There's no need to bring any of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's
>>works into this :-).
>
>	It would be interesting to see that character investigate this
>holocaust though.  He did have a penchant for physical evidence.  

    But Sherlock Holmes also accepted eyewitness testimony.  Or do you
think he learned of the dog that didn't bark in the night through a tape
recording? 

    You lose again, Matt.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access2.digex.net Sun Dec 15 12:58:38 PST 1996
Article: 85885 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!xenitec!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: edm.general,can.general,alt.revisionism,alt.censorship,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Giwer revisionism - Israel nuked Iraq!
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 15 Dec 1996 09:54:20 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <5913es$8ir@access2.digex.net>
References: <58g5oc$gqm$1@news.sas.ab.ca> <58o4te$jl8$2@news.sas.ab.ca> <32b1f0a2.143438@news.micron.net> <32b34422.20349657@news.gte.net>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca can.general:99695 alt.revisionism:85885 alt.censorship:112445 alt.usenet.kooks:32094

In article <32b34422.20349657@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Arleigh Burke  wrote:
>	It would appear in the interests of fairness and honesty that the
>Arabs should be sold nuclear weapons to restore the balance of power
>in the Middle East.  We really can't have Israel continuing to nuke
>Iraq like they did last time.  

    Israel nuked Iraq!  The things one learns reading the posts of the
self-confessed liar Matt Giwer!

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

    And I thought his posts about the lack of protests outside the
Cambodian embassy to the United States during the Pol Pot regime and the
first use of the term "United Nations" were stupid.


>	BTW:  Did you know their nukes have no fail safe equipment?  They
>are no more safeties than any conventional bomb.

    One wonders when the self-confessed liar Matt Giwer got a chance to
inspect an Israeli nuke.  Surely he would not base this claim on
eyewitness testimony, as that would be hypocritical.


>Can you imagine anything so reckless?  

    Yes.  The self-confessed liar Matt Giwer, who has managed to get
himself booted from four internet service providers in less than a year.

    Not only reckless but a slow learner.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Dec 16 07:05:24 PST 1996
Article: 85933 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.insinc.net!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,alt.society.conservatism,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: A Nazi replies to a War Criminal
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 15 Dec 1996 14:02:56 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <591i10$pve@access5.digex.net>
References: <32A2CDAA.7C19@rio.com> <32AF20F8.787C@wlink.net> <32b0e2d2.17151594@news.gte.net> <58v7fq$18i4$4@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net>
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In article <58v7fq$18i4$4@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net>,
Gord McFee  wrote on the subject of Matt Giwer:

>Having been warned by his latest ISP (the fourth) that he will be booted
>if he continues in drunken raving obscene mode, he slides back into troll
>mode, in an attempt to fool some newcomers. 

    Fifth, Gord.  Combase, Netcom, Worldnet, and Cybergate all showed him
the door since the start of 1996.  So far he has managed not to do
anything bad enough to get GTE to give him the heave-ho - but I have great
faith in Matt's stupidity.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Mon Dec 16 07:05:24 PST 1996
Article: 85948 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.bctel.net!news.insinc.net!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: DIE NAZI SCUM!!!
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 15 Dec 1996 09:17:52 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <5911ag$kkp@access4.digex.net>
References: <32A5E11A.1B6F@rand.nidlink.com> <32b0d785.14258969@news.gte.net> <58s4ig$bn0$1@gryphon.phoenix.net> <32b2e54a.4114102@news.gte.net>
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In article <32b2e54a.4114102@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Arleigh Burke  wrote:
>On Fri, 13 Dec 1996 11:38:18 -0600, Doc Tavish
><"tavish@phoenix.net"@phoenix.net> wrote:
>>The truth is the little Yids can't explain why they have been hated
>>generation after generation.

[snip]

>	It is an interesting point.  In places where there was no initial
>dislike, in fact where they were invited to settle such as Poland, it
>has always turned to active dislike given enough time.  And that
>dislike never reverses.  And over these centuries Jews refuse to ask
>themselves why this happens.  It is easier to blame the prejudice of
>others than to face the real question.

    Matt Giwer is widely despised.  Of course he blames the prejudice of
others rather than facing the real question of his own disgraceful
behavior. 


>	Of course the answer is staring them in the face if they should
>ever being willing to look at it.  They try to maintain a separate
>social structure within any society they are in.  And that social
>structure is a primitive one, a genuine tribal social structure with
>shamans (rebbes) as community leaders.  

    The real answer is staring Matt Giwer in the face if he should ever be
willing to look at it.  He has mailbombed, libeled, and deceptively edited
the words of others so that he can "refute" a distorted version of
people's arguments.  He is a hypocrite and a liar (and when I say liar I
always mean someone who knows his statement is dishonest at the time it is
uttered).  He even confessed openly to lying. 

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html


>	No matter what society they are in, their loyalties are always
>split with that tribal loyalty.  And as it is always a matter of time,
>a time comes when they choose loyalty to the tribe over that of the
>society in which they live.  Thereby they show they can not be
>trusted.  

    Matt Giwer can certanly not be trusted to tell the truth.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access2.digex.net Tue Dec 17 08:23:37 PST 1996
Article: 86196 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Clearing the air about Bagels
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 15 Dec 1996 16:50:31 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <591rr7$mgd@access2.digex.net>
References: <589jpd$9pr@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <32b68e40.59853581@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <58ujha$q71@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <32c31da4.7740580@199.0.216.204>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net

In article <32c31da4.7740580@199.0.216.204>,
tom moran  wrote:
>Ken McVay Wrote:
>>New York bagels? No way, Jose. Gryfe bagels, Toronto... don't try
>>slipping (schlepping?) in those Montreal hockey pucks, either.
>>
>>>And *3* kilos of smoked salmon?! I knew ZOG had money, but *3* kilos!?
>>
>>This is Canada, old son... we sell by the ton.
>
>>Nizkor Canada          | http://www.nizkor.org
>
>	Brought to you by Nizkor, the synagogue's Holocaust promotional
>website and Mr.Morris, eminent professor.

    Darn tootin', buckaroo, so when they tell you where the real bagel
lovers go for their bagels and lox, you would be smart to listen.  A
culturally deprived person like yourself, coming from the Los Angeles
area, cannot possibly be expected to know about these things.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Dec 17 18:39:54 PST 1996
Article: 86317 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nol.net!df.lth.se!news.lth.se!solace!eru.mt.luth.se!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.censorship,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: The Great Debate
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: 17 Dec 1996 14:59:43 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <596u3f$7gp@access5.digex.net>
References: <199612120033.QAA01666@mailmasher.com> <591k14$3o8@lex.zippo.com> <5951tn$2oj@access5.digex.net> <595bc6$iru@lex.zippo.com>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:86317 alt.censorship:112591 alt.politics.nationalism.white:39253 alt.politics.white-power:52352

    Note followups.

In article <595bc6$iru@lex.zippo.com>,   wrote:
>In article <5951tn$2oj@access5.digex.net>, mstein@access5.digex.net says...
>>
>>In article <591k14$3o8@lex.zippo.com>,   wrote:
>>>In article <58vour$1a9e$1@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net says...
>>>No.  While you can try and claim that here we have freedom of speech, there
>>>is no intellectual outcome of it.  The conclusions wrought here are 
>>>meaningless on accepted scholarship.  USENET does not offer this extremely 
>>>important aspect.  You (pl.) only want Zundel to debate here to pump your
>>>own egos.
>>
>>    So tell me how what Zundel says on TV or radio (which appears to be
>>where he wants to debate) is any less "meaningless on accepted
>>scholarship" (whatever that clumsy phrase means)?  Indeed, because the
>>nature of the medium with its time constraints means it cannot be
>>subjected to the same careful critical review as the written word, TV and
>>radio offer even _less_ of what you claim is the important aspect than
>>what is written here.  It would appear that Zundel only wants to debate as
>>a way of gaining publicity, and will only do it in a forum where there is
>>not enough time to refute any errors or outright lies he might tell.
>>
>TV and Radio would, at the very least, give Mr. Zundel publicity to Jo
>Bloggs.  I somehow doubt being on the box would improve his acceptance on
>modern scholarship (not PC), nor do I know whether being on the box is
>Mr. Zundel's aim, that is your conclusion.

    That was his _request_.  But you're right, people quite often ask for
something other than what they want, so I guess that we cannot have any
idea what his aim was.

    But thanks for the implicit admission that the scholarship thing was a
red herring. 


>Perhaps if his views were aired into mainstream, real debate could begin,
>as it would promote interest into the topic.

    You know, I could have _sworn_ I recently said that Zundel was
interested in publicity, not engaging himself in real debate.


>>    Your attempt to defend Zundel's avoidance of this forum doesn't get
>>off the ground with a Saturn V booster to help it.  Even Ingrid Rimland's
>>poor excuse (that the man who makes much of the fact that he is willing to
>>endure firebomb attacks for his beliefs can't tolerate some namecalling)
>>was more believable. 
>>
>Uh huh.  Nice emotive connectivity.

    Don't blame me, blame Ingrid.  She makes both points.  I just pointed
out how bizarre it is to claim simultaneously that

    a) Zundel is so open and committed to the truth that he is
       willing to brave firebombs, and

    b) Zundel will not debate in a forum where someone might use
       naughty language.

If that absurdity produces an emotional response in people, that is not my
affair.  I also pointed out the absurdity of your apologia for Zundel's
behavior given his request.  Deal with it. 
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Dec 18 08:19:01 PST 1996
Article: 86338 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!winternet.com!news.minn.net!visi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,alt.society.conservatism
Subject: Re: A Nazi replies to a War Criminal
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 16 Dec 1996 17:58:47 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 66
Message-ID: <594k77$nbk@access5.digex.net>
References: <32A2CDAA.7C19@rio.com>  <32b3499e.21753265@news.gte.net> <32b5d53d.68984454@news.micron.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy:121367 alt.politics.nationalism.white:39261 alt.politics.white-power:52357 alt.revisionism:86338 alt.society.conservatism:64914

In article <32b5d53d.68984454@news.micron.net>,
Kurt Stele  wrote:
>On Sun, 15 Dec 1996 02:32:45 GMT, destroyer@navy.water (Arleigh Burke)
>wrote:
>>	That is NOT and IF.  The six million DID include four million from
>>Auschwitz. 
>>
>>>The problem here is that you are assuming that the figure 6,000,000
>>>ever included the aforementioned 4,000,000 as a component. Please
>>>quote an orthodox historical source which does this. No one has ever
>>>done this on this newsgroup, to my knowledge. 
>>
>>	Your pretensions are amusing but ... the three million reduction
>>was BEFORE the newsgroup started.  As for orthodox historical source
>>gee, which of the two are you referring to?  Writers, me boy, writers.
>>It means just where did the total come from if not from adding up the
>>component parts? 
>>
>>	Or are you agreeing with me that six million was made up then and
>>is still an invented number?  You do appear to be agreeing with me
>>that the six million number has no basis in fact either then or now.  
>>
>>	It is good that you have gotten into this as it allows me to point
>>out that the numbers did not add up then and do not add up now.  In
>>other words, six million was pulled out of some jewish numerologer's
>>ass.  
>
>I would like to see just for my own amusement the six million number
>added up again -- this time including the four million deduction.

    Kurt, I realize you and Giwer have problems with reading above the
fourth grade level, but do try to pay attention here.  The six million
number for Jewish deaths was a rounded-up figure for the difference in
prewar European Jewish population and postwar European Jewish population
which could not be accounted for by emigration.  Since the figures were
derived based on countries, not camps, and population differences, not
counted deaths, adjusting the death toll for any one camp does not change
a figure which never was based on camps. 

    Here is the answer to your question.  If you had added up the largest
figures ever suggested for each camp (or at least ever claimed by
revisionists to have been suggested for each camp), and added in the
shootings in the occupied Soviet Union, you would get a total far greater
than six million Jewish deaths.  Four million Jewish deaths at Auschwitz,
plus two million at Treblinka, gets you to six million even before you add
in a million shot in Russia and hundreds of thousands more in Belzec,
Sobibor, Chelmno, and Majdanek.  Just off the top of my head, I can see
that you would easily get nine or ten million Jews that way - so cutting
three million Auschwitz dead from _that_ total would _still_ leave you
somewhere around six million Jewish deaths.

    Maybe I need to dumb this down.

    Camps is apples.

    Population is oranges.

    Fewer apples not change number of oranges.

    Read the above a few hundred times until you understand it.


-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Dec 18 08:19:02 PST 1996
Article: 86358 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Nazi asks about the Talmud (Sara?)
Date: 17 Dec 1996 23:27:37 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <597rrp$79s@access5.digex.net>
References: <595378$t63$1@uhura.phoenix.net> <5955sl$qnv@news.enter.net> <5977br$8dd$5@uhura.phoenix.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <5977br$8dd$5@uhura.phoenix.net>,
Doc Tavish  <"tavish@phoenix.net"@phoenix.net> wrote:
>Yale F. Edeiken wrote:
>> 
>> >   Doc Tavish <"tavish@phoenix.net"@phoenix.net> writes:
>> 
>> >  I will not go into long quotes (but I can and will if questioned) but
>> >  gentiles were never given equality by Jews in the bible.
>> 
>>         Read the book of Ruth lately?
>> 
>>         Read Exodus lately?
>> 
>Do you wish to declare that gentiles did exist on equal footing with
>Jews? They were second class servants in every case I've read BUT if
>Exodus and Ruth do in fact show fully equal standing it will be the
>first time I've seen it. I vill look into this further.


    See also Deuteronomy chapter 23.

    Briefly, there were several classes of Gentiles.  Highest was the "ger
tzedek," the convert to Judaism.  The only disqualification that I can
think of was that a female convert was ineligible to marry the High Priest
(Lev. 21:14).  Next was the resident alien who observed the seven Noachide
laws.  From what I have read (though I am not an expert on this part),
they had pretty much full civil rights - there were some differences in
treatment regarding things like forgiveness of debt in the Sabbatical
year, I think. Then came idolators, who were regarded as bad news, but
they could give up their behavior and climb the ladder. Finally were the
real outcasts, the seven Canaanite nations and the Ammonites and Moabites
who could never become part of the tribe.

    Interestingly enough, the prohibition on Moabites was held to apply
only to the men - which is how Ruth the Moabitess was permitted to become
a Jew.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Dec 18 08:19:03 PST 1996
Article: 86440 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!news.mindlink.net!van-bc!out2.nntp.cais.net!in1.nntp.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Big "Mistake"
Date: 16 Dec 1996 21:37:30 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <59511a$272@access5.digex.net>
References: <32b52f51.4486548@199.0.216.204> <19961212195400.OAA12467@ladder01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <19961212195400.OAA12467@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
Tutu101  wrote:
>Re:  "The Big Mistake"--To think that there are people and agencies
>seeking to stifle free inquiry into this historical event!  Here is yet
>another example among hundreds, perhaps thousands, as to why the Holocaust
>should be subjected to detailed analysis, to determine the accuracy and
>truthfulness of the claims.

    And just what does that have to do with so much of what gets posted
here by "revisionists?"  E.g., "The Himmler Posen speech tape was
doctored" is neither an analysis nor an inquiry.  It is an assertion based
on no evidence at all.

    Posted/emailed.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Dec 18 12:58:45 PST 1996
Article: 39364 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!torn!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.society.conservatism,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.misc,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.usa,alt.conspiracy,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.equality,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Success!
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Date: 17 Dec 1996 16:08:45 -0500
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    Followups trimmed.

In article ,
Jim Stuart  wrote:

[snip]

>On to more interesting things.  I was looking at some quotes from
>the Talmud the other day, and noticed a couple of interesting items:
>
>1. "The teachings of the Talmud stand above all other laws. They are 
>    more important than the laws of Moses."-
>-Rabbi Ismael, Rabbi Chambar, et. al.

    Not even a book name to check the quote.  No source, no donut. 

>
>2. "The Jews are human beings , but the nations of the world are not 
>    human beings but beasts."-
>-Baba Mecia 114, 6.

    Baba Metzia 114b.  The question is whether a priest becomes ritually
unclean (disqualified from performing priestly duties until the prescribed
period has passed and washing has been performed) if in contact with the
grave of a non-Jew.  One rabbi taught that ritual uncleanliness did not
occur in such a circumstance, and it is in _this_ context that he cited a
proof text from Ezekiel, "only ye are designated men."  (There is no
indication that this rabbi was correct, BTW - Baba Metzia is not concerned
with purity laws; this was a digression from the main discussion.)  The
part about "beasts" is a complete invention not found in the text. 

>
>3. "Jehovah created the non-Jew in human form so that the Jew would 
>    not have to be served by beasts.
>    The non-Jew is consequently an animal in human form, and commanded 
>    to serve the Jew day and night."-
>-Midrasch Talpioth, p225-L.

    This is definitely not the Talmud.  I have no idea what this book is
supposed to be, and 225-L doesn't look like any kind of valid page
reference.


>4. "At the time of the Cholhamoed the transaction of any kind of 
>    business is forbidden. But it is permitted
>    to cheat a goy, because cheating of goyim at any time pleases the Lord."-
>-Chulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim 539.

    Shulchan Aruch at least exists, but it is not the Talmud.  I have not
checked to see if "Orach Chaim 539" exists in the larger work.  Chol
Hamoed is the intermediate period of the festivals of Pesach (Passover)
and Sukkot (Tabernacles).  This is already suspect, as business is
discouraged but not forbidden.


>And, lastly,
>
>5. "A Gentile girl who is three years old can be violated."-
>-Aboda Sarah 37a.

    Aboda Zara 37a.  A complete distortion of the text, and as I
understand the book, explicitly prohibited elsewhere.  The rabbis
prohibited cohabiting with Gentile women for fear that they would seduce
their husbands away from following the law and into following their
idolatrous ways.

    The discussion of Aboda Zara 37a involves the conditions under which
contact with certain bodily secretions causes ritual uncleanliness,
similar to that of Baba Metzia 114b.  The law is that a bodily secretion
of a gentile girl less than three years and a day, if touched, does not
cause ritual uncleanliness.  The text says _nothing_ about the
permissibility of having sex with such a girl; that is a malicious
conclusion dishonestly presented as if it were a quote. 


>So, here's my question.  Are these quotes in truth and in fact from
>the Talmud?

    Definitively not for the two which really did refer to the Talmud.


>And, if they are, is the Talmud still viewed as an 
>operative document?

    The Talmud is not the compendium of the law - you will note frequent
disagreements between rabbis, frequently with no guidance as to who won
the debate.


>And, here's the important point;  if all of these are true, is it
>not also true that those who follow the teachings of the Talmud are
>racists?  Or are the Goy not supposed to notice?

    Since they are not true, your question is irrelevant.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Dec 18 16:06:37 PST 1996
Article: 86554 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Now Playing....Irma Grese
Supersedes: <596htg$q8p@access5.digex.net>
Date: 17 Dec 1996 11:34:11 -0500
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In article <5963ch$sof@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
>  In article <593e5s$o8e@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

[snip]

>   In the case of Irma Grese, one should simply reflect on the fact that 
>   it is not easy to manage 20-30,000 inmates.  Auschwitz was a detention 
>   center, where criminals were freely interspersed among those simply being 
>   held in “protective custody”.  
>  
>  Mr. Belling is being quite disingenuous here in calling Auschwitz a
>  "detention center." Auschwitz I and III (Monowitz) were slave labor camps.
>  Auschwitz-II Birkenau was unquestionably an extermination camp. The
>  prisoners held there in "protective custody" were either slated for
>  extermination from being worked to death; through privation, starvation,
>  and disease; and/or in the gas chambers at Birkenau. 
>
>Mark Van Alstine Propagandizing Again.-rb

    Mr. Bellinger making empty assertions again.

    You know, if Auschwitz was meant to hold people in "protective
custody," the Nazis certainly did a piss-poor job.  Given the death rate,
the people being "protected" would have been safer in Berlin during the
final days of the Third Reich.

[snip]

>>  "When these two women appeared at the camp entrance, the internees, who
>>  already knew what top expect, became panic stricken. The beautiful Irma
>>  Griese advanced toward the prisoners with a swinging gait, her hips
>>  swaying, and the eyes of 40,000 wretched women, mute and motionless, upon
>>  her. She was of medium height, elegantly dressed, with every hair in
>>  place. The mortal terror which her mere presence inspired visibly pleased
>>  her. For this twenty-two-year-old girl was completely without pity. With a
>>  sure hand she chose her victims, not only from the healthy but from the
>>  sick, the feeble, and the incapacitated. Those who, despite their hunger
>>  and toture, still showed a glimmer of their former physical beauty were
>>  the first to be taken. They were Irma Griese's special targets. 
>
>Right.  Little ole Irma Grese terrorizing 40 thousand people.

    Right.  Little ole Irma and those SS men with guns who would come
running as soon as she called for help.

>Don't you realize how ridiculous you sound by posting this nonsense?--rb

    Gee, you don't realize how ridiculous you sound posting your juvenile
one-liners and evidence-free assertions about events you did not witness
and the thoughts of people you never met. 


[snip]

>>  "One day in June, 1944, 315 'selected' women were pushed together into a
>>  washroom. In the big hall the unfortunate ones had already been kicked and
>>  whipped. Then Irma Griese commanded the S.S. guards to nail the door shut.
>>  As simple as that.
>
>Irma Grese could not give commands to SS guards, Mikie.--rb

    But you know how eager men are to respond to the polite request of a
beautiful woman, Joey.

    And by the way, you are talking to Mark Van Alstine, not Mike Curtis.


>>  > ...The overcrowding also led to sanitation problems, which Grese was 
>>  > scarcely capable of handling.  The detainees themselves helped to create 
>>  > many of the problem situations, as at Belsen, where they urinated and 
>>  > defecated whenever and wherever the urge struck them.  They also filled the 
>>  > latrines and compound with trash and filth, so much so that the latrines 
>>  > eventually ceased to function.  
>>  
>>  The mendacious Nazi apologia of Mr. Belling is once again exposed by the
>>  following excerpt from Deborah Dwork's and Robert Jan Van Pelt's
>>  _Auscwhitz: 1270 to the present_ (p.268) :
>>  
>>  "The design of the wash barracks and the privies was, in fact, lethal....
>>  Architects and bureucrats are to blame: the design was inadequate, and not
>>  enough material and financial resources were allocated for the camp's
>>  construction. Whether the architects designed to degrade the prisoner's or
>>  not, the result was the same: with the latrines submerged in excrement,
>>  with very little water to be had at very few points, and with mud ev
>>  erywhere, what remained was an inmate population without the means to
>>  preserve any outward sign of human dignity. As Des Pres asked, 'How much
>>  self-esteem can one maintain, how readily can one respond to the needs of
>>  another, if both stink, if both are caked with mud and feces?'
>

>Er---this hardly answers the question.

    What question is it that you think Mr. Van Alstine has failed to
answer? 


>And indeed what I wrote was the truth. 

    BECAUSE!  I!  SAY!  SO!

    Were you there?  Why should anyone believe you?


>The same foulness repeated itself at belsen, where the new inmates turned the
>camp into a veritable pigsty.--rb

    As if the inmates could magically create sanitiation facilities out of
nothing, or stop their bodily functions indefinitely.

    Let me lock you in a room with no toilet facilities.  I guarantee you
that sooner or later, you will wet and soil yourself.  Then by your rules
I can blame you for urinating and defecating "whenever the urge struck
you."  What total idiocy.

    The jailers are responsible for providing adequate sanitiation
facilities in the jail and giving the inmates adequate opportunity to
relieve themselves.  Your blaming the inmates is simply stupid. 


>Marks irrelevant comments snipped
>
>>  To blame the _victims_ of this Nazi "biological disaster," and _not_ the
>>  Nazi perpetrators, in attempting to white-wash the crimes of Irma Griese,
>>  is simply malicious hypocrisy of the highest order on Mr. Belling's part. 
>
>Afraid not, Michael.--rb

    Want to try the experiment I proposed, silly person who thinks that
people can control their bodily functions indefinitely?


>>  > This would explain the pervasive stench around Auschwitz and another 
>>  > reason why it was referred to as “Anus Mundi”.
>>  
>>  Again, the maliciousness of Mr. Belling's dishonesty comes to the
>>  forefront with this puerile lie. The reference to Auschwitz being the
>>  "anus mundi" had no relation whatsoever as to "the pervasive stench around
>>  Auschwitz," as can be seen by the context it was used in by its
>>  originator, Joseph Kremer, in his diary (Czech, _KL Auschwitz_, p.215.):
>
>Kremer was referring to people who were ill from typhus and dysentery.  they 
>were covered with excrement due to their illnesses.  That is why he uses the
>term "Anus Mundi".

    Because!  I!  Say!  So!

    Gee, did you talk to Kremer and get that explanation from him
personally?  If not, when did you acquire the ability to read the minds of
dead people?

    Since you make such a stink about taking text in context (although
_you_ merely assert without evidence that other people are failing to do
this), let me _prove_ that you are taking the remark out of context.  Here
is the whole paragraph:

   In the morning attended a Sonderaktion from the women's
   concentration camp (Muslims);  the most dreadful of horrors.
   Hschf. Thilo -- army doctor -- was right when he said to me this is
   the "anus mundi."  In the evening towards 8:00, attended another
   Sonderaktion from Holland.

>From  the text, the most honest and natural reading is that he is talking
about the Sonderaction.  Begin covered with urine and feces constitutes
"the most dreadful of horrors?"  Is that the most dreadful horror you can
think of, Mr. Blackmore?  If so, I must say you don't have much of an
imagination.  (Your juvenile one-liners have already demonstrated that.) 


>The sewage for Auschwitz was always inadequately built,
>thus "backing up" and creating a foul stench throughout the camp, which many
>prisoners imagined was the stench of burning bodies.--rb

    Because!  I!  Say!  So!

    Were you there, that you know what smell they smelled and what really
generated it?  Do you claim the ability to read the minds of dead people? 
Why should anyone believe you?


>>  In closing yet another sad chapter on Mr. Belling's lying scumbag Nazi
>

>Uh huh.  More name calling from someone who is at the losing end of the
>argument.  That's all you can do--call people names in your
>frustration.-rb

    And all you can do is assert without evidence, and then claim that you
have won the argument.  He brings evidence to the table from people who
were there. You simply assert on your own nonexistent authority what
people were thinking and why, with ZERO evidence.  Anyone familiar with
high school debate knows you would lose _automatically_. 

[remainder snipped]

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Dec 18 17:16:16 PST 1996
Article: 86579 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Big "Mistake"
Date: 18 Dec 1996 19:10:18 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 55
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References: <32b52f51.4486548@199.0.216.204> <19961212195400.OAA12467@ladder01.news.aol.com> <59511a$272@access5.digex.net> <32b73909.89699481@news.micron.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <32b73909.89699481@news.micron.net>,
Kurt Stele  wrote:
>On 16 Dec 1996 21:37:30 -0500, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <19961212195400.OAA12467@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
>>Tutu101  wrote:
>>>Re:  "The Big Mistake"--To think that there are people and agencies
>>>seeking to stifle free inquiry into this historical event!  Here is yet
>>>another example among hundreds, perhaps thousands, as to why the Holocaust
>>>should be subjected to detailed analysis, to determine the accuracy and
>>>truthfulness of the claims.
>>
>>    And just what does that have to do with so much of what gets posted
>>here by "revisionists?"  E.g., "The Himmler Posen speech tape was
>>doctored" is neither an analysis nor an inquiry.  It is an assertion based
>>on no evidence at all.
>
>An assertion no less based on evidence than the assumption that the
>tape is undoctored.

    Wrong again.  The voice was identified by a listener, and there were
notes for the speech in Himmler's handwriting, and we have other
confirmation that he gave a speech that day.  So there are some positive
reasons to think the tape is real.  You can listen to it yourself if you
have RealAudio capability - check Nizkor.

    But if there is any charge of forgery, the claimant bears the burden
of bringing forward evidence that there was such forgery.  Remember, the
tapes were found by Americans, not Soviets.

    Still, if you're so sure the tapes are doctored, why aren't you
jumping at the chance to both embarrass Nizkor and make all of us take a
collective $2,000 bath?  The offer is still on the table.  Or are you not
as sure as you would like people to think?


>Kurt Stele
>
>"[M]ost of the memoirs and reports [of "Holocaust survivors"] are full
>of preposterous verbosity, graphomanic exaggeration, dramatic effects,
>overestimated self-inflation, dilettante philosophizing, would-be
>lyricism, unchecked rumors, bias, partisan attacks and apologies."  
>
>Jewish historian Samuel Gringauz in _Jewish Social Studies _(New
>York), January 1950, Vol. 12, p. 65. 

    I notice you have not responded to the request to restate, in your own
words, what that paragraph means, and to identify the most serious charge
in it.  I really question whether you truly understand Gringauz's words.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Dec 18 20:40:55 PST 1996
Article: 86597 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish math: 6 million minus 2.5 million= 6million, of course!
Date: 18 Dec 1996 14:10:56 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 29
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In article <598l0g$bto@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>>   klewis@awinc.com (Ken Lewis) writes:
>>  On 17 Dec 1996 09:54:48 GMT, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>>  
>>  >There were 19 such slabs at Auschwitz all repeating the same lies
>>  >in different languages.  Each and every slab has now been etched
>>  >out.--rb
>>  
>>  And not one of them said 'Jews.'
>>  
>>  Amazing!
>>  
>>  
>>>>>

>It didn't have to say "Jews".  That was clearly implicit.  Stop playing
>dumb and dumber.-rb

    Rather than engaging in empty assertion and namecalling, perhaps you
would like to explain what facts and/or text and which rules of textual
interpretation make it "clearly implicit" that when the Communists had a
chance to write "Jews" but instead wrote "human beings," they nevertheless
meant "Jews."  Or is this once again based on your telepathic powers?

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Dec 19 05:54:11 PST 1996
Article: 86648 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!news.bconnex.net!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer more or less admits that he is a drunk...
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 16 Dec 1996 22:19:27 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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In article <32b4bf46.5476352@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Halsey  wrote:
>On Sun, 15 Dec 1996 06:11:19 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>wrote:
>>However, this is no excuse for his behavior. And, I believe,
>>his behavior indicates that it's not only his failure in
>>life which has made him what he is. He would have probably
>>been a revolting, disgusting swine, even if his life would
>>have been a success.
>
>	Since you have made the statement several times and thus pose as an
>expert, what is a "success" in life?  And when will you deem yourself
>a success?  When you have the obligatory 2.2 children, the house with
>the picket fence and the two car garage?  
>
>	What is a "success in life"?  I am certain the world is awaiting an
>answer to this question.  So take all the screens you need to answer
>the question.  

    I am now quite comfortable financially.  But there was one year I was
scraping along on miniumum wage.  Nevertheless, I considered at the time
that I had a successful life.  I still do.  I will be happy to give you
and the rest of the world my own definition, which may well differ from
Dr. Keren's.  I do not even need a full screen to do it.  A sentence will
serve. 

    A successful life is one in which the person can rest secure in the
knowledge that whatever has happened, one has behaved honorably. 

    Irrefutable proof of Matt Giwer's total failure as a human being may
be found at:

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Dec 19 05:54:12 PST 1996
Article: 86658 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!hookup!decwrl!news.pbi.net!news1.rcsntx.swbell.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.usenet.kooks,alt.revisionism
Subject: An apology to Matt Giwer
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 16 Dec 1996 19:20:09 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 47
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.usenet.kooks:32165 alt.revisionism:86658

In article <32b4f929.652234@news.gte.net>, 
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Halsey  wrote:
>On 15 Dec 1996 09:54:20 -0500, mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <32b34422.20349657@news.gte.net>,
>>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
>>Arleigh Burke  wrote:

>>>	BTW:  Did you know [Israel's] nukes have no fail safe equipment?
>>>They are no more safeties than any conventional bomb.
>>
>>    One wonders when the self-confessed liar Matt Giwer got a chance to
>>inspect an Israeli nuke.  Surely he would not base this claim on
>>eyewitness testimony, as that would be hypocritical.  
>
>	Hey, dummy.  It is not surprising fools like you are outside the
>knowledgeable community but that info is so well known that even Tom
>Clancy wrote about it.  Get a life, boy.

    I sincerely apologize for thinking that Matt Giwer would be so
hypocritical as to base his claim on eyewitness testimony.  I should have
realized that instead he would hypocritically base it on a fallacious
appeal to authority. 

    According to Matt Giwer, only physical evidence is evidence.  (At
least, that's what Matt Giwer says about anything he does not want to
believe in.)  I am waiting for something such as authenticated plans for
these allegedly failsafe-free alleged nukes.


[snip]

>Revisionists are sneaky bastards, always relying on facts and figures

which they take out of context and sometimes manufacture out of whole
cloth....

    Matt Giwer excels at the latter.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Dec 19 05:54:12 PST 1996
Article: 86670 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!node2.frontiernet.net!usenet.logical.net!dciteleport.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: repeat of question(s)
Date: 18 Dec 1996 21:09:56 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 34
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References: <32b87326.6508008@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <32b87326.6508008@news.gte.net>, 
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Up front  wrote:

    I liked Matt's "Bull" address better.  It was more appropriate. 

>	Back on 9 Dec and again on 10 Dec, I pointed out that the one day
>Germany boycott in retaliation for the never-ending worldwide boycott
>by the WJC was designed not to harm one Jew.

    Because it was on a Saturday?  It would not harm observant Jews.

    But not all Jews were observant.  Oops there.


>It appears all of you holohuggers agree with me.  

    I frequently post documentation that you are a liar.  You never
respond. 

    By the same reasoning you use above, it appears from your silence that
you agree with me that you are a liar.  Perhaps you should go warn Kurt
Stele not to take the bet. 


Revisionists are sneaky bastards, always re-lying about facts and figures.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Dec 19 05:54:13 PST 1996
Article: 86682 of alt.revisionism
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Clearing the air about Blackmore/Bellinger
Date: 16 Dec 1996 22:02:24 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <5952g0$35v@access5.digex.net>
References:  <19961216021600.VAA22188@ladder01.news.aol.com> <593bpi$leh$1@rks1.urz.tu-dresden.de>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
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In article <593bpi$leh$1@rks1.urz.tu-dresden.de>,
Ulrich Roessler  wrote:

[Apology by David Thomas deleted]

>First he says, it is a threat then it is not - all in Mr DbtgThomas mind.
>Then, he says the threat which was not, was only pushy, presumptous and rude,
>or mildly implied threat, or could be interpreted as such, if it wasn't
>necessary to correct this in part, or whatever.
>
>What will he say about Mike Curtis' e-mail tomorrow?

    Look, gang, at least the man stepped up to the plate apologized
publicly and voluntarily for his mistake.  That's rare enough behavior
around here that I suggest it be accepted graciously even if only in the
hope of encouraging more of it from a few other people. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Dec 19 10:00:39 PST 1996
Article: 86749 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!hookup!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-stock.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!snunews.snu.ac.kr!newsfeed.dacom.co.kr!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish math: 6 million minus 2.5 million= 6million, of course!
Date: 18 Dec 1996 14:16:03 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <599ftj$jbu@access5.digex.net>
References: <32b4664a.11392378@news.gte.net> <595uat$sof@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <595uat$sof@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>>   destroyer@navy.water (Arleigh Burke) writes:
>>  On 14 Dec 1996 04:54:55 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>  
>>
>No need for all this debate,.  The figure of 4 million was given, but Polish
>sources strictly broke down the figures of the alleged dead--and the Jews
>won by a long shot.

    More details would be greatly appreciated.  Little things like source,
year, you know.  If the tablets were written decades ago and the breakdown
done recently, it tells you nothing about what the party line was when the
tablets were first engraved.  Wouldn't you agree?

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Dec 19 16:01:18 PST 1996
Article: 86813 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!news.alfred.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish math: 6 million minus 2.5 million= 6million, of course!
Date: 17 Dec 1996 01:52:53 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <595g05$958@access5.digex.net>
References: <32b4664a.11392378@news.gte.net> <5926re$2fl@news.enter.net> <32b5d580.69051693@news.micron.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <32b5d580.69051693@news.micron.net>,
Kurt Stele  wrote:
>On 16 Dec 1996 00:58:22 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>
>>>  	Did or did not Hoess say three million up through his time running
>>>  the camp?  Did anyone claim extermination stopped when he left?  
>>
>>	The question was "testimony."  He never gave any such testimony at 
>>the Nuremberg Tribunal or elsewhere.  If you think otherwise provide a 
>>citation.
>>
>>	--YFE
>
>Stop trying to hide behind legalese and explain Hoess' initial 3
>million figure Yalie-poo.

    Hoess explained his own initial figure on first interrogation.  It was
openly admitted hearsay.  He said he got it from Eichmann and had no
personal knowledge.  Later, in his autobiography, he dismissed that figure
and gave a much lower one, saying that even Auschwitz had its limits.  I
suppose I should not be so rude as to point the fact that he contradicted
the people who, according to the "revisionists," were supposedly dictating
his memoirs to him.

    This information has only been posted here dozens of times, Kurt.  How
many more times do you plan to miss it? 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Dec 19 19:11:52 PST 1996
Article: 86832 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!uunet!in2.uu.net!205.252.116.190!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.censorship,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: The Great Debate
Supersedes: <59c72a$mbr@access5.digex.net>
Date: 19 Dec 1996 17:20:52 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <59cf44$sld@access5.digex.net>
References: <199612120033.QAA01666@mailmasher.com> <5972s1$p2f@lex.zippo.com> <59ad1g$a11@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <59aubi$4n2@lex.zippo.com>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:86832 alt.censorship:112750 alt.politics.nationalism.white:39596 alt.politics.white-power:52607

In article <59aubi$4n2@lex.zippo.com>,   wrote:
>In article <59ad1g$a11@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>, Laura says...
>>
>>Ourobouros wrote:
>>
>>[...]
>>
>>>As I said earlier, USENET doesn't offer Zundel true freedom of speech,
>>>something I tried, but probably failed, to explain to Laura Finsten.  Part
>>>of freedom of speech is being able to have your research accepted into
>>>mainstream, not in the looney bin, as the media always reinforces[...]
>>
>>So if something is on TV it must be true?  Like Chariots of the Gods?
>>Research (in contrast to sensationalist pap) is accepted (or not) into
>>the *scholarly* mainstream based on the quality of the scholarship upon
>>which it is based, something you seem unable to grasp.
>>
>Interesting deduction.  I said popular and accepted, not popular or
>accepted.
>
>Scholarship refuses to accept a true contrary position, and derides any
>attempt for that contrary position to gain ascendence.  In other words,
>scholarship has become a religion.
>
>That is something you seem unable to grasp.

    What you seem to be unable to grasp is that you have now ruled out
scholarship as a worthwhile forum (contradicting your previously stated
reason for Zundel to avoid Usenet, by the way); ruled out Usenet; and
apparently ruled out mass media because they reinforce the loony bin
aspect.  I find it hard to see what's left.

    Another thing you seem unable to grasp is that you are quite wrong
about freedom of speech.  Freedom of speech does NOT entail any right to
have your research _accepted_ into the mainstream.  All it entails is the
right to _try_ to _present_ your message to the mainstream.

    The mainstream also has freedom of speech, and part of that freedom is
the freedom to say back to you, "We reject your message" - or even the
freedom to ignore you.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Dec 19 20:50:24 PST 1996
Article: 86874 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!news.bconnex.net!news.supernet.net!news.thenet.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!169.132.11.200!news.idt.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Matt Giwer
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 16 Dec 1996 07:52:58 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <593gna$p5g@access5.digex.net>
References: <3272FCD8.152C@er4.eng.ohio-state.edu> <32b385c0.665965@news.awinc.com>  <32b4fc0d.1392019@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <32b4fc0d.1392019@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Halsey  wrote:
>On Sun, 15 Dec 96 16:40:35 PDT, Mike Cullinan 
>wrote:
>
>>I was brought in here following one of Giwer's trolls, so I guess I'll
>>stick around and watch for a while.
>
>	Please do.  The more the merrier.
>	
>	And as a newcomer, you will be amazed as to what you are required
>to believe as a full fledged holobuggerer.

    It is not nearly as amazing as what is required in order to believe
the lies of Matt Giwer.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html


>Revisionists are sneaky bastards, always relying on facts and figures.

    You know what they say - figures don't lie, but liars figure.

    Matt Giwer is a liar.  Except that he often makes mistakes with simple
arithmetic.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Dec 19 20:50:25 PST 1996
Article: 86876 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!news.bconnex.net!news.supernet.net!news.thenet.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!206.229.87.25!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: Gauleiter Gross Wants to be Freenet Fuehrer,or Goebbels
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 16 Dec 1996 07:57:28 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <593gvo$p7p@access5.digex.net>
References: <58g5oc$gqm$1@news.sas.ab.ca> <32b0e15b.16776292@news.gte.net>  <32b20e5e.2717524@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:86876 alt.usenet.kooks:32173

In article <32b20e5e.2717524@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Arleigh Burke  wrote:
>On Thu, 12 Dec 1996 23:32:26, joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <32b0e15b.16776292@news.gte.net> destroyer@navy.water (Arleigh Burke) writes:
>>
>>Just goes to show that poor, sick Mr. Giwer has so little pride that he'll 
>>post under the name of an American hero in order to puff himself up.
>>
>>For those who don't know:
>>
>>From:  http://www.uss-intrepid.com/fleetweek96/usnabio.html
>>
>>Admiral Arleigh A. Burke
>
>	Arleigh Burke, hull name for the DDG 51 and the class name for that
>series.  

    Matt Giwer clearly has no class, but I think it's fair to say that he
is a destroyer.  He started with his own brain and went on to his life.
Now he's working on the truth, as proved by the evidence found at the URLs
below.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Dec 19 20:50:26 PST 1996
Article: 86877 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!news.bconnex.net!news.abs.net!in1.nntp.cais.net!nntp.uio.no!news.nacamar.de!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: Mr. Giwer's mailbomb
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 16 Dec 1996 07:50:04 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 60
Message-ID: <593ghs$p2n@access5.digex.net>
References: <56cpto$cj9@rockall.cc.strath.ac.uk> <32add30c.85919@pubnews.demon.co.uk> <58rt7h$9jm@access5.digex.net> <32b4cb80.8606033@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:86877 alt.usenet.kooks:32174

In article <32b4cb80.8606033@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Halsey  wrote:
>On 13 Dec 1996 10:37:21 -0500, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <32add30c.85919@pubnews.demon.co.uk>,
>>Fergus McClelland  wrote:
>> ISPs are not in the habit of releasing
>>"exhaustive reports" to the general public on such matters.  But in this
>>case, I would say that seeing a relationship between Mr. Giwer's sudden
>>departure from Netcom, and the mailbomb complaint filed shortly before
>>said departure, is _not_ a "post hoc ergo propter hoc" fallacy. 
>
>	Excuse me but "departure shortly after" the filing of the complaint
>which was filed five months after the purported incident leaves a lot
>to the imagination.  Rather that the email REQUESTING the purporte
>mail bomb was most likely deleted by then,

    You made the claim Ken sent it.  Your burden of proof.  But let's
ignore that.  You have never even made an assertion about what that
question was.  I think it's because you know you cannot fabricate out of
whole cloth a question which a) could possibly justify the reply you sent,
and b) any intelligent person could possibly believe that Ken would ask.

    Go ahead.  Try to come up with such a question.  Give everyone some
laughs.


[snip]

>>>As things stand, saying an absolute "It has been proved" only makes
>>>you look silly, dishonest or both.
>>
>>    It certainly appeared to have been proved to Netcom's satisfaction.
>>Else why would Mr. Giwer have made such an abrupt departure?
>
>	As NETCOM said, the volume of complaints was not worth their time
>to deal with.  It has nothing to do with the validity of the
>complaints, so NETCOM said.

    All we have as evidence for this is the worthless eyewitness testimony
of a proven liar. 


>	But then, jews will lie about everything that happened.  After all
>they are jews.  

    Rather, Matt Giwer will lie about anything and everything.  He lied
about what Colin MacGregor said.  He lies about what other posters here
said.  He lies about what he himself said earlier.  And once he even
admitted it openly.  So there is no reason to believe him about what
Netcom said.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Dec 19 20:50:27 PST 1996
Article: 86883 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!news.bconnex.net!news.abs.net!in1.nntp.cais.net!tezcat!news.sprintlink.net!news-chi-8.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Nazi asks about the Talmud (Sara?)
Date: 16 Dec 1996 13:12:30 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <5943ee$8va@access5.digex.net>
References:  <59248v$2fl@news.enter.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <59248v$2fl@news.enter.net>,
Yale F. Edeiken  wrote:
>>   jstuart@tristar.org (Jim Stuart) writes:
>
>>  First, what exactly are Goyim?  Is that the same as a Gentile?  For that
>>  matter, exactly what does Gentile mean?  
>
>	Literally it means nations.  In the famous passage in Isaiah 2:4, "They 
>shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks.  
>*Nation* will not take up sword against *nation.*"  The word used in Hebrew is 
>"goyim."

   Slight correction: the quote uses "goy," singular.  "Lo yisa goy el goy
cherev."  In one prayer, Israel itself is referred to as "goy kadosh," a
holy nation.

[snip]


>>  Third (a bit off topic) what is he relationship between the Torah and
>>  the Talmud?  I'm under the impression that the Torah is the underlying
>>  document, with the Talmud including interpretations and expansion of
>>  the meaning, but I certainly don't claim to know.
>
>	"Talmud" means "study."  It is commentary, the majority is presented as 
>a debate.

    Some things to remember along those lines: like Supreme Court
decisions, it records both majority and minority opinions - and it's not
at all clear to the novice reader which side won.  Also, quite like modern
legal education, some of the discussions involve hypotheticals which were
meant to challenge thought, not as a serious position.  I know of at least
one explicit comment in the Talmud of this nature, that a particular
argument made by Rabbi Akiba was for the purpose of testing the wits of
his students.  Some of the arguments seem to have been made just for the
sheer fun of debate.

    A number of the apparently anti-gentile comments in the Talmud must be
viewed in the light of these caveats.  For example, one rabbi says that a
gentile who studies the Torah deserves death, only to be followed
immediately by another rabbi who says that on the contrary, a gentile who
studies the Torah is as meritorious as the High Priest.  From the fact
that Judaism does accept conversion, it is obvious that the first rabbi
lost the debate (if, indeed, his argument was ever intended to be taken
seriously).  Yet antisemites sometimes quote that line without disclosing
the existence of the second, victorious argument. 

    Posted/emailed.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Dec 20 07:02:53 PST 1996
Article: 86918 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tlpnews.tlp.com!news-out.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!news-out.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,misc.test
Subject: Kurt Stele believes in time travel
Supersedes: <59a4b7$7f4@access5.digex.net>
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: 19 Dec 1996 23:38:46 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 162
Message-ID: <59d58m$dcu@access5.digex.net>
References: <3272FCD8.152C@er4.eng.ohio-state.edu> <32b4fc0d.1392019@news.gte.net> <593gna$p5g@access5.digex.net> <32b7367e.89049182@news.micron.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:86918 misc.test:82839

In article <32b7367e.89049182@news.micron.net>,
Kurt Stele  wrote:
>On 16 Dec 1996 07:52:58 -0500, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <32b4fc0d.1392019@news.gte.net>,
>>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
>>Halsey  wrote:
>>>On Sun, 15 Dec 96 16:40:35 PDT, Mike Cullinan 
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>I was brought in here following one of Giwer's trolls, so I guess I'll
>>>>stick around and watch for a while.
>>>
>>>	Please do.  The more the merrier.
>>>	
>>>	And as a newcomer, you will be amazed as to what you are required
>>>to believe as a full fledged holobuggerer.
>>
>>    It is not nearly as amazing as what is required in order to believe
>>the lies of Matt Giwer.
>>
>>http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
>
>Let's look at this "Nizkor cite" closely:
>
>From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) 
>Newsgroups: alt.revisionism 
>Subject: Re: Mauving right along 
>Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 03:03:11 GMT 
>Message-ID: <4t1ff2$al0@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> 
>
>>>>   [Giwer] "It was recently observed that when the holohugger story  
>>>>   changes it is those on the other side who are accused of changing." 
>
>>>[Grynspan] "Matt, you changed your story about Dahlman and his provider 
>>>so many times that it must have worn out the phosphor on at least one 
>>>screen. 
>
>>[Giwer] "Because I have no intention of leading him to exactly what he did 
>>wrong that caused it to be shut down. It is very simple and
>>straightfoward. It is also very  easy to overlook. He continues to
>>overlook the reason." 

>
>To which Michael Stein replies: 
>
>>"In other words, you openly admit you deliberately lied at least two out 
>>of the three times. Now that we have your completely candid admission 
>>that you are a wilful liar, the only question is how many other lies you 
>>have told, including about your scientific knowledge. 

>
>Stein's commentary does not follow necessarily.

    Matt's three stories are mutually contradictory.  Only one can be
true.  Sorry about that.  And he certainly ought to know whether he filed
a complaint or whether he did not.  Sorry about that again.  And if he did
file a complaint, he certainly ought to know what the grounds were.  Yet
he could not keep the story straight on those points.  Sorry about that
again. 


>Giwer did not
>necessarily "lie" as his reply "because I have no intention..." could
>very well be (and probably is) Giwer's interpretation of Grynspan's
>comment as a misunderstanding on the latter's part,

    It would have had to have been Giwer's misunderstanding, not
Grynspan's.  Grynspan said the story changed.  That is a provable fact.
The three separate and mutually contradictory claims about who did what
and why can all be found on DejaNews.


>or an
>interpretation of Grynspan as having misunderstood the intention of
>Giwer not specifying "what [the person] did wrong."

    Nice dodge, but the fact remains that this has nothing to do with
Grynspan's actual words.  Giwer first said something about people changing
stories about the Holocaust.  Grynspan stated a simple fact - that Giwer
himself changed his story about Dahlman.  Period.  Clearly Grynspan's
comment was focused on Matt's hypocrisy in talking about people changing
stories, not on the specifics of the Dahlman matter.  Because of the
context, there was nothing about the situation for Grynspan to
misunderstand.

    Yet Giwer addressed the specific matter of the censorship of Dahlman. 
As a matter of standard textual interpretation, the "because" which begins
Giwer's reply serves to introduce an explanation for the fact stated
immediately prior. 

    Tell me, O mighty thinker, how Grynspan could have misunderstood the
intention of Giwer not specifying "what the person did wrong" when Giwer
did not declare that intention until AFTER Grynspan made the comment you
think was the result of that misunderstanding?  Do you think Alec had a
time machine which he used to go forward in time, read Giwer's words, then
write his misunderstanding of them so that Giwer could declare his
intention in reply to that misunderstanding?

    Oops there.  Boy, those time travel paradoxes sure give me a headache.


>At any rate, Giwer is not "openly admitting" to having lied about
>anything.

    I find it quite interesting that all this time the gentleman has not
seen fit to speak up for himself.

    So tell us about that time machine of Alec's....


>To that Stein draws the sweeping conclusion:
>
>>"Obviously nothing at all you say can be trusted, since you have now 
>                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>revealed your willingness to lie when it suits your purposes." 
>
>In that thread Stein, in a leap of grade-school quality, seized a
>questionable discrepancy to try to discredit the entire sum -all- of
>Giwer's writing.

    If that were the only discrepancy in Giwer's writing I would not be
making such a sweeping generalization.  It is merely the first one he
freely admitted to.  There were dozens of "discrepancies" before that; 
very little of what he said could be trusted even before that even if they
were all simple error.  His error rate was simply too high. 

    Someone who pulls a boner like suggesting that Alec's comment was
generated by a misunderstanding of words Giwer had not yet uttered is
really not in a position to comment about grade-school quality
thinking.


>Stein now posts a Nizkor URL that claims "Giwer lies openly."

    I stand by my claim.  He told three separate stories which could not
simultaneously be true.  He did not dispute this fact; he merely said
"Because I have no intention of leading him to exactly what he did wrong." 
As a reply to a statement of fact, such a phrase serves as an explanation
of the fact.  The odd thing is, Giwer could have achieved his stated
purpose simply by keeping his big mouth shut.  But instead he chose to
lie. 

    How many other examples do you want of his deliberately deceptive
editing, his open denial of writing words he wrote just a week earlier,
his assertions that people wrote things they never said, etc.? 

    If you truly believe your own sophistry, I will happily wager $1,000
that I can prove to the satisfaction of a member of the American
Arbitration Association that Giwer has made false statements that he knew,
or should have known, were false at the time he made them.  Loser pays all
costs and the amount of the wager is paid to a nonprofit organization of
the winner's choice. 

    Talk is cheap, Kurt.  Willing to put your money where your big mouth
is?  You chickened out on the Posen tape, how about this one?

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Dec 20 07:02:54 PST 1996
Article: 86934 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!winternet.com!news.minn.net!visi.com!mr.net!news.idt.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Possible article forgeries - requesting assistance
Date: 17 Dec 1996 20:37:41 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <597ht5$pje@access5.digex.net>
References: <32A58CC3.6E24@rio.com> <19961216134000.IAA10357@ladder01.news.aol.com> <595hgp$9jo@access5.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:86934 alt.usenet.kooks:32178

In article <595hgp$9jo@access5.digex.net>,
Michael P. Stein  wrote:
>In article <19961216134000.IAA10357@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
>Tutu101  wrote:
>>,alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.female,alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.pornst
>>ar,alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.pornstars,alt.sex.pictures.female
>>Subject: From the Siacom Archives -f- sian0500.jpg
>>Date: 8 Dec 1996 00:07:33 GMT
>>Organization: Siacom Enterprises
>>Lines: 533
>>Message-ID: <01bbe49c$40b2a060$184badce@wolfpack>
>>Reply-To: "Siacom" 
>>NNTP-Posting-Host: cnc05124.concentric.net
>>X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155
>>
>>For all and sundry--this is the work of those two holocaust
>>scholars--Chuck Feree and Michael Stein......
>
>    Excuse me, but I think you need to stop sucking on those funny sugar
>cubes the fellow in the schoolyard is selling you.  Could you please
>do everyone reading this newsgroup a great favor by telling us
>
>   a) why you keep including headers from articles in the sex binaries
>      group in your posts to alt.revisionism
>
>   b) what it is you think Chuck and I are doing, and
>
>   b) what evidence you have that we are doing whatever it is that we are
>      supposedly doing?


    Well, the prima ballerina of the Ballets Trockadero de Monte Carlo has
finally explained that someone is posting followups to her articles
consisting of the porn posts.  When she tries to email a reply, either my
name or Chuck Ferree's comes up in the "To:" line.  Blissfully ignorant of
the function of a "Reply-To:" line, and the ease with which one can be
added to an article header, Ms. "Forgeries! All forgeries!" naturally
assumed that this positively and irrefutably identified the poster.

    I suppose it is possible someone might be forging articles with my
name. There is just one small problem I am having. I cannot find these
alleged articles on Digex.  I cannot find these alleged articles on
Nizkor.  And I cannot find these alleged articles on DejaNews. 

    On the off chance that these articles are not figments of Tarara
Bumdiyeva's fertile imagination, and just got amazingly limited
distribution, if anyone happens to run across one, would you please email
me a copy of the physical evidence with the full headers? There might be
someone I want to have a little heart-to-kidney talk with.  Thanks muchly
for your help. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Dec 20 15:40:28 PST 1996
Article: 87046 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.fdt.net!news.atlantic.net!closer.scescape.net!out2.nntp.cais.net!in1.nntp.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.censorship,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: The Great Debate
Followup-To: alt.censorship,alt.revisionism
Date: 20 Dec 1996 13:35:28 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <59em9g$ijg@access5.digex.net>
References: <199612120033.QAA01666@mailmasher.com> <59aubi$4n2@lex.zippo.com> <59cf44$sld@access5.digex.net> <59clb5$a6m@lex.zippo.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:87046 alt.censorship:112807 alt.politics.nationalism.white:39744 alt.politics.white-power:52723

In article <59clb5$a6m@lex.zippo.com>,   wrote:
>In article <59cf44$sld@access5.digex.net>, mstein@access5.digex.net says...

>>    Another thing you seem unable to grasp is that you are quite wrong
>>about freedom of speech.  Freedom of speech does NOT entail any right to
>>have your research _accepted_ into the mainstream.  All it entails is the
>>right to _try_ to _present_ your message to the mainstream.
>>

>One thing you seem unable to grasp is freedom of speech is part and parcel
>with the freedom to be heard.  Mr. Zundel is not permitted the freedom to 
>be heard.  I dare say, yelling what you like in the middle of the bush has
>always been available, and hence your definition of free speech is
>worthless.

    It is certainly improper for a government to prevent people from going
to hear Zundel.  But if he gives a speech and gets a disappointing crowd,
is he intitled to compel more people to come?  If news media ignore him,
is he (and any other person with a cause, be it alien abduction or UN
black helicopter attack troops) entitled to force them to carry stories? 
I think not. 

    I'm not a rude person, but I end up hanging up quite frequently on
people trying to get me to switch long distance service - they simply WILL
NOT take a polite "no" the first time.  If their "free speech rights"
forced me to listen to each and every one of them each and every time they
call for as long as they want to give me reasons to use their service, my
personal free time would be greatly diminished.  They do NOT have the
right to make me hear them out.



>>    The mainstream also has freedom of speech, and part of that freedom is
>>the freedom to say back to you, "We reject your message" - or even the
>>freedom to ignore you.
>
>To an extent, but mainstream refuses to even hear it in the first place.

    That is their right.  Anyone can put you in their killfile.  Anyone
can put me in their killfile.  Our free speech rights are not violated.

    And, as they say, freedom of the press belongs to those who own one.
Tell me, if the positions were reversed, with the revisionist thesis
widely accepted and I were trying to convince a disbelieving world that
the gas chambers really existed, would you say I had any right to compel
newspapers and TV and radio to pay me any attention to me?  If so, what
would possibly be the criteria for exclusion?
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Dec 20 17:44:27 PST 1996
Article: 87077 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.lava.net!news.Hawaii.Edu!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: The Fuhrer's Gaze (Thank You, ourhero!)
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 17 Dec 1996 02:18:49 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <595hgp$9jo@access5.digex.net>
References: <32A58CC3.6E24@rio.com> <19961216134000.IAA10357@ladder01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:87077 alt.usenet.kooks:32189

In article <19961216134000.IAA10357@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
Tutu101  wrote:
>,alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.female,alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.pornst
>ar,alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.pornstars,alt.sex.pictures.female
>Subject: From the Siacom Archives -f- sian0500.jpg
>Date: 8 Dec 1996 00:07:33 GMT
>Organization: Siacom Enterprises
>Lines: 533
>Message-ID: <01bbe49c$40b2a060$184badce@wolfpack>
>Reply-To: "Siacom" 
>NNTP-Posting-Host: cnc05124.concentric.net
>X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155
>
>For all and sundry--this is the work of those two holocaust
>scholars--Chuck Feree and Michael Stein......

    Excuse me, but I think you need to stop sucking on those funny sugar
cubes the fellow in the schoolyard is selling you.  Could you please
do everyone reading this newsgroup a great favor by telling us

   a) why you keep including headers from articles in the sex binaries
      group in your posts to alt.revisionism

   b) what it is you think Chuck and I are doing, and

   b) what evidence you have that we are doing whatever it is that we are
      supposedly doing?

Do try to keep your writing somewhat coherent.  This definitely means
you'll have to do better than your last post.  I get the impression I'm
being libeled in some way, but you are making so little sense it's really
hard to tell.


>What I want to know is who
>plays the man and who plays the woman---or is it on a first come first
>serve basis?

    I play the 'cello.  Right now you are playing the fool.  I suggest you
stop it before Matt Giwer gets mad at you for muscling in on his
territory, and perhaps his liquor cabinet.

    Once again, do you suppose you could give an explanation in coherent
English of just what paranoid delusion you are raving about?  I suspect
it's related to the email you sent me earlier, but that made no sense
either. 

    Posted/emailed.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Sat Dec 21 19:55:54 PST 1996
Article: 87380 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Beastly Numbers (was Re: Myshkin vs. Reality)
Date: 21 Dec 1996 20:10:14 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <59i1pm$r7@access1.digex.net>
References:  <58qtuf$rjk@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> <32b9f61d.532827@news.gte.net> <59dcos$eks@rigel.infonex.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <59dcos$eks@rigel.infonex.com>,
anonymous  wrote:
>And now for a little exercise in probability and number theory -- 

    Ooh, you use those terms almost as if you really knew something about
them!  But before I ask whether you'd like some salt with that big plate
of crow you're about to eat, I'd like to give Matt Giwer (since he's
boasted so much about his mathematical skills), to have a chance to show
them to us, and demonstrate where this post went horribly wrong.  Of
course, I suspect Matt really doesn't have the math skills to come up with
the correct answer, and will try to bluff his way out once again by
telling me to do it (if, of course, he has the guts to answer at all). 

    But pigs could sprout wings, I suppose.  And don't worry - if Matt
can't cash the check his mouth has written, I won't keep you waiting long
for your lesson in mathematics. 

    And for everyone else - did you figure out what was wrong with our
anonymous friend's post?  (There is more than one problem, though one is
much bigger than the others.)

    Posted/emailed.  (Zylof does look like a legitimate address.) 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Sun Dec 22 10:06:27 PST 1996
Article: 87484 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!uunet!in3.uu.net!205.252.116.190!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mr. Giwer's mailbomb
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 22 Dec 1996 02:01:48 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <59imcs$o3r@access4.digex.net>
References: <56cpto$cj9@rockall.cc.strath.ac.uk> <32add30c.85919@pubnews.demon.co.uk> <58rt7h$9jm@access5.digex.net> <32bcbd66.24678736@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article <32bcbd66.24678736@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Tickle Me Adolph  wrote:
>On 13 Dec 1996 10:37:21 -0500, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>>[I]n this
>>case, I would say that seeing a relationship between Mr. Giwer's sudden
>>departure from Netcom, and the mailbomb complaint filed shortly before
>>said departure, is _not_ a "post hoc ergo propter hoc" fallacy. 
>
>	However it is not only a fallacy but a lie as Netcom gave the
>reason as the harrassment they received.

    Since Colin McGregor of Internet Direct in Canada says Matt Giwer lied
about what Mr. McGregor said (see first URL below), it is difficult to see
why anyone should believe a proven and confessed liar such as Matt Giwer
when he reports what was said by any other ISP.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-idirect.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Dec 22 10:06:27 PST 1996
Article: 87487 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!xenitec!zenox.com!news2.insinc.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-4.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Mr. Blackmore's antisemitic doggerel
Date: 18 Dec 1996 11:56:27 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 77
Message-ID: <5997nr$d1u@access5.digex.net>
References: <596vbg$8cs@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <598htr$b93@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <598htr$b93@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>>   libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) writes:
>>  How about you answer this one, Mr. Belling:  how does it come to be that, 
>>  just a few short months after showing up here posing as an objective 
>>  truth-seeker, you were spotted exchanging antisemitic nursery rhymes with
>>  Harold Covington of the National Socialist White People's Party?  How 
>>  difficult was it to fake indignation at being called "Nazi-boy," knowing
>>  all along that you were indeed a Nazi, in the literal sense of the term?
>>  And lastly:  do you have any shame at all?
>>  
>>  Bill
>>  
>>>>>

>Indeed I am not a Nazi nor am I anti-Semitic.  I do not know Harold
>Covington, but the NSWPP began sending me email months ago.  I asked them
>how they happened to select me for the email, but I never received an
>answer.

    And yet you wrote Harold a cordial letter about your situation.  Do
you do that with anyone who sends you unsolicited email and refuses to
explain why they sent it to you?


>The "nursery rhymes", as you call them, came from an
>anti-semitic newspaper.  Simply because I posted it doesn't mean I am an
>anti-Semite, any more than if you posted something from a Nazi would make
>you one of them. 

    True but disingenuous.

    It is the context which determines whether writing something or
quoting something indicates agreement with the idea expressed or not.  If
I write, "Here is an example of Nazi poison," and follow it with a Der
Sturmer quote, of course that does not make me antisemitic.  However, if
you were to take that same quote and follow it with a non-ironic "The Jews
haven't changed since Streicher wrote those perceptive comments," that
would indicate that you agree with those antisemitic ideas.

    Now, let's look at the context in which you quoted those words.  Was
it "look at what I found?"  No, it was not.  Here is what you wrote just
before the witty little ditty:

>Indeed, they are far from silenced. Right now they have been attacking
>me unremittingly with spams from porno sites on the web.  They have also
>somehow cut me off from posting through my ISP---and I have heard not a
>word about it from my ISP, though I have sent email after email.  When I
>attempt to post to alt revisionism, a message appears on my screen:  You
>have no permission to talk!  If they are unusually dormant right
>now--perhaps they are celebrating Hannukah--

    You had just got done making some disparaging comments about a group
of people and what terrible things they had done to you.  (And you are
paranoid - the "no permission to talk" message can happen due to ordinary
technical problems not caused by any malicious attack.)  You then said
these terrible people might be celebrating Hanukkah, after which you
quoted the antisemitic doggerel.

    From this context, any literate and honest reader would conclude that
you quoted those words because you generally agreed with them.  One might
also ask what antisemitic newspaper you got them from, and why did you
have it in the first place?

    If you go into a store, pick up a small item, and put it in your
pocket, it may well be that you fully intend to pay for it when you get to
the checkout counter.  But if the store detective sees you, there is an
excellent chance you'll be pinched on the spot for shoplifiting, and an
excellent chance you'll be convicted.  Actions speak louder than words, as
they say.  The same applies to your attempt to deny that you had any
antisemitic sentiment when quoting that rhyme.  In that context, your
denial is rather hard to swallow. 

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Sun Dec 22 18:00:31 PST 1996
Article: 87700 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: another "holocaust victim"
Followup-To: alt.test
Date: 22 Dec 1996 19:46:22 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <59kkou$rk7@access1.digex.net>
References: <32bd8875.76661019@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <32bd8875.76661019@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Tickle Me Adolph  wrote:
>	Diana Lubarsky, holocaust victim.  Following a previous report on a
>past life as a holocaust victim, the SciFi Channel's Sightings, has
>found another living dead victim of the holocaust.  The same stringy
>haired Rabbi "confirms" this experience.  Another one, Rabbi Ben
>Romer, puts her sculptures on exhibit at the synagogue.  
>
>	Needless to say she is jewish.  It all started as dreams.  Said
>woman identifies "gestapo" collecting her family, a cattle car, and
>murdering her own child.  
>
>	She hears voices in her head, "how will they remember us?" and she
>answers them.

    Going by his many claims about what he has read in alt.revisionism
which has in fact never appeared here, it would appear Matt Giwer also
hears voices in his head, or at least reads computer screens in his head.

    By the way, Matt, are you going to show us your great mathematical
skills by finding the math error in the original "revisionist" post in the
thread, "Beastly numbers?" 
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Sun Dec 22 23:08:35 PST 1996
Article: 87709 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!news-out.internetmci.com!in1.nntp.cais.net!tezcat!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: repeat of question(s)
Followup-To: alt.test
Date: 22 Dec 1996 19:56:35 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 65
Message-ID: <59klc3$rrg@access1.digex.net>
References: <32b87326.6508008@news.gte.net> <59a85k$a1p@access5.digex.net> <32bd9ed9.82392333@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <32bd9ed9.82392333@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Tickle Me Adolph  wrote:
>On 18 Dec 1996 21:09:56 -0500, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <32b87326.6508008@news.gte.net>, 
>>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
>>Up front  wrote:
>>
>>>	Back on 9 Dec and again on 10 Dec, I pointed out that the one day
>>>Germany boycott in retaliation for the never-ending worldwide boycott
>>>by the WJC was designed not to harm one Jew.
>>
>>    Because it was on a Saturday?  It would not harm observant Jews.
>
>	Who would care about non-jews?  

    The Nazis must have.  They spent so much time and effort in the middle
of a war rounding up so many of them. 


>>    But not all Jews were observant.  Oops there.  
>
>	But for those there was by law only a half business day on Saturday
>so it was minimized for them.

    So it only harmed them half as much.  But they were still harmed.
Thank you for admitting your previous error that it was designed to harm
no Jews.


>>>It appears all of you holohuggers agree with me.  
>>
>>    I frequently post documentation that you are a liar.  You never
>>respond. 
>
>	Why should I respond to altered material on Nizkook Central? 
>
>>    By the same reasoning you use above, it appears from your silence that
>>you agree with me that you are a liar.  Perhaps you should go warn Kurt
>>Stele not to take the bet.   
>
>	Rather I state for the record that Nizkook Central and its parent
>synagogue engage in deliberated deception, outright lies and character
>assassination in order to promote their favorite holocaust.

    And Alger Hiss stated for the record that he never spied for the
Russians.  Neither you nor he can counter the mass of physical evidence
with anything but statements of denial.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

Sorry about that.

    By the way, are you going to display your great mathematical skills
and dissect the mathematical error committed by the original "revisionist"
post in the thread, "Beastly numbers?"


-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Dec 23 07:53:46 PST 1996
Article: 87795 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!xenitec!zenox.com!news2.insinc.net!news.iosphere.net!news.supernet.net!news.thenet.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!169.132.11.200!news.idt.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: A Nazi replies to a War Criminal
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 15 Dec 1996 13:56:32 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 97
Message-ID: <591hl0$pqa@access5.digex.net>
References: <32A2CDAA.7C19@rio.com> <32ac5f66.1153919@news.gte.net> <58ihal$lna@access5.digex.net> <32ad1b06.7125420@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:87795 alt.usenet.kooks:32234

In article <32ad1b06.7125420@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Force  wrote:
>On 9 Dec 1996 21:19:01 -0500, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <32ac5f66.1153919@news.gte.net>,
>>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
>>Force  commits libel:
>>
>>>On Sun, 08 Dec 1996 09:14:33 GMT, jstuart@tristar.org (Jim Stuart)
>>>wrote:
>>
>>[snip]
>>
>>>	In fact you are missing the point.  You say intimidated and abused.
>>>The Chuckle Fairy says that he participated in MURDERING a few hundred
>>>of them.  And the Chuckle Fairy is proud of being a murderer.  
>>>
>>[snip]
>>
>>>>Really, Chuck?  So, tell me, should we respect admitted war criminals
>>>>Chuck?  And who, you might ask fits this category?  You, Chuck;  the
>>>>fellow who was so proud to say that he straffed and bombed civilians.
>>>
>>>	More.  He has claimed that he participated in murdering the guards
>>>at Dachau.  You remember, the case where they were lined up and
>>>machinegunned?  Those guards who had only been assigned there two
>>>weeks before when the surrender negotiations started?  Those men who
>>>had nothing to do with the conditions.  He murdered them.  
>>>
>>>	To bad we can't take away his citizenship and ship him to Germany
>>>for trial.  
>>
>>
>>    Given that he has just committed libel against Chuck Ferree, too bad
>>Matt Giwer has no assets worth going after.  Note that in the excerpt
>>below, Chuck said that a) he didn't participate, only witnessed, b) was
>>not proud of it, and c) agreed that what happened at Dachau was a war
>>crime.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  ARTICLE 4 OF 12
>>
>>Subject:      Re: massacre of 500 guards at Dachau
>>From:         Chuck Ferree 
>>Date:         1996/06/23
>>Message-Id:   <31CDBF94.11E@rio.com>
>>Newsgroups:   alt.revisionism
>>
>>Chuck Ferree wrote:
>>I witnessed the machine-gunning of about 150-160 German guards who had
>>been captured. A Lt. set up 2 .30 caliber machine guns, one in the
>>street, and the other on a rooftop across the street. The guards were
>>brought out in groups of 30-40, lined up against a wall and cut down.
>>Former inmates were permitted to shoot any one still alive in the head
>>with the Lts. .45 pistol.
>
>	Yes, in fact this puts the Chucle Fairy in the position of an
>accomplice to the fact of murder.  He did not file charges at the time
>and thus was a party to covering it up.  That gets him the charge of
>murder.

    As always, Matt Giwer remains ignorant of the law.  (This is not meant
to be an exhaustive list of subjects of which he was ignorant.)


>	As there is no statute of limitations on murder, he and others can
>be and should be charged with the 150-160 individual acts of murder.  
>
>	It is also good to see you finally found his admission of his
>complicity in the crime of murder.  For a moment there I thought you
>were going to take his later denial seriously.  
>
>>This was a war crime covered up by General George Patton, 
>
>	AND EVERYONE else in addition to Patton who was party to the
>coverup and thus accessories to the murders.  But you know that.  
>
>	Thank you for supporing my statements.  It is appreciated.  

    Only a kook, an illiterate imbecile, or a liar would say that anything
posted by either myself or Mr. Feree supports Matt Giwer's statements. 

    Matt Giwer is, of course, all three.  Indeed, he has openly admitted
to being a liar - not that this was needed to prove the point.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html


-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Mon Dec 23 07:53:48 PST 1996
Article: 87824 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.censorship,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: The Great Debate
Date: 21 Dec 1996 20:25:34 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <59i2me$10q@access1.digex.net>
References: <199612120033.QAA01666@mailmasher.com> <59cf44$sld@access5.digex.net> <59clb5$a6m@lex.zippo.com> <32bbbbdf.106006444@news.micron.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:87824 alt.censorship:112960 alt.politics.nationalism.white:40222 alt.politics.white-power:53105

In article <32bbbbdf.106006444@news.micron.net>,
Kurt Stele  wrote:
>Mike Stein is a real beauty.  He thinks "freedom of speech" should be
>nothing more than the freedom of Jewish media bosses to censor what
>they wish from the airwaves.

    Gee, Kurt, you're a real beauty.  With you around to spread false and
malicious stories about what I think, I wonder why I bother to post at
all. 

    You've always got the _Spotlight_ to push your stories in.  If you
can't get people to subscribe, whose fault is that?

    Public access cable is there for the taking.

    You could even pool your money and buy a real TV station, or at least
an "infomercial" on one.  Are you afraid to find out what kind of ratings
you'd get if you went on regular network TV with your material?  You might
ask Lyndon LaRouche for his Neilsen numbers and see if you can beat him.


>The Holocausters won't defend their
>theories over the airwaves or allow the public to make up their own
>minds.

    I thought that's what I was doing here, to the best of my ability.  I
post.  You decide whether you buy my evidence and arguments or not.  When
have I come around threatening anyone with anything?


>The Holocauster-industry consists of cowards, charlatans, and
>money-grubbers.   The whole "Holocaust" Myth (tm) is simply a prop for
>Jewish influence and a carte blanche for Israel.   And as if censoring
>revisionism from the airwaves isn't bad enough they're even trying to
>shut down websites in their campaign of suppression.   These guys are
>real winners.

    I certainly oppose any attempt to shut down revisionist sites.  I hope
the person attacking Webcom is caught and punished, whether the target was
Zundel or not.  (Remember, a similar attack was launched against panix in
New York a while ago, and I don't think they are hosting any revisionist
sites.)

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Tue Dec 24 08:25:11 PST 1996
Article: 87972 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Blackmore--the *real* Blackmore
Date: 21 Dec 1996 23:34:23 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <59idof$3p7@access1.digex.net>
References:  <59g6bm$30v@juliana.sprynet.com> <32bc8dc6.12486539@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <32bc8dc6.12486539@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Up front  wrote:
>	But this here [Rajiv Gandhi] is the one who did the attack on the
>ISP that carries Zundel's website.  He just does not realize how close
>people, including Interpol, are to him at the moment.  

    The confessed liar Matt Giwer has of course produced no evidence for
his claim.

    It will be interesting to see who gets picked up first.  After all,
Mr. Giwer does not know how close people, including the Attorney General
of Canada, are to him at the moment. 

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Tue Dec 24 08:25:12 PST 1996
Article: 87981 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!wesley.videotron.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dresden
Date: 22 Dec 1996 19:59:37 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <59klhp$rvj@access1.digex.net>
References: <32B86E01.19B3@nbnet.nb.ca> <59a4hh$6d0@news.enter.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <59a4hh$6d0@news.enter.net>,
Yale F. Edeiken  wrote:
>>   Keith Morrison  writes:
>>  ibokor wrote:
>
>>  > : : :>So says Sara "Schwartz" of the ilk most famous for concealing and
>>  > : : :>changing their names for their own benefit.
>
>
>
>>  > : You mean like Doris Day, Cary Grant .......
>
>>  > Lord Mountbatten,.....
>  
>>  John Wayne, Lewis Carroll... 
>
>	Gerald Ford

    The artist formerly known as Prince.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Dec 24 08:25:13 PST 1996
Article: 87984 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Do the facts matter?
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 18 Dec 1996 18:57:55 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <59a0e3$2m5@access5.digex.net>
References: <32b83d3b.58394447@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <32b83d3b.58394447@news.gte.net>, 
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Halsey  wrote:
>	Not to everyone.

    Well, yes, Matt.  You've been busy serving as a living example since
you first arrived here.  So why do you think you're telling us anything
new?

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

[article on rhetoric snipped]

    I think that explains you very well.


Revisionists are sneaky bastards, always re-lying about facts and figures.


-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access2.digex.net Tue Dec 24 08:25:14 PST 1996
Article: 88016 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!uunet!in1.uu.net!205.252.116.190!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish math: 6 million minus 2.5 million= 6million, of course!
Date: 24 Dec 1996 01:13:20 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 80
Message-ID: <59nsa0$avg@access2.digex.net>
References: <599igp$ghr$5@gruvel.une.edu.au> <59g9j6$30v@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net

In article <59g9j6$30v@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>   ibokor@metz.une.edu.au (ibokor) writes:
>  rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>   
>   The "little deception" as you call it, rests with the Auschwitz Museum,
>   and with you, who seeks to exonerate their mendacity.--rb
>  
>  
>  I have in front of me a pamphlet entitled:
>  "Auschwitz -
>  A Crime against Mankind
>  Auschwitz Exhibition 1986-1987"
>  Copyright of the Auschwitz State Museuem, Oswiecim, 1986
>  in which it states (the pages bear no numbers)
>  
>  
>  
> "The most grandiose center [sic] of Nazi genocide
> was the death cam in Oswiecim-Brzezinka (Konzentrationalger
> Auschwitz-Birkenau) in which some four million people brought
>  there from all over Europe lost their lives."
>  
>  ....
>  
>  "According to the bill of the Polish Seym
>  (Parliament), the Auschwitz-Birkenau Museum
>  is the Monument to the Martyrdom of Poles and 
>>  Other Nations,...."
>>  
>>  
>>  The latter part of the pamphlet contains a number of
>>  photgraphs, one of which is of a plaque which is part
>>  of the International Monument in Auschwitz II Birkenau.
>>  
>>  It reads:
>>  
>>  "FOUR MILLION
>>  PEOPLE SUFFERED
>>  AND DIED HERE
>>  AT THE HANDS
>>  OF THE NAZI
>>  MURDERERS
>>  BETWEEN THE YEARS
>>  1940 AND 1945"
>>  
>>  There is a photograph below this one
>>  of a plaque in Hebrew which is part
>>  of the same monument.
>>  Since I cannot read or understand
>>  Hebrew I cannot translate it
>>  
>>  The pamphlet also features a photograph
>>  of John PAul II in front of this
>>  monument on 7th June, 1979.
>>  
>>  
>>  Now, where are those plaques claiming
>>  that there were 4,000,000 Jewish
>>  victims in Auschwitz?
>
>I already clarified this in a previous post.  I did not have the
>article in front of me when I posted.  There were indeed 19
>such inscribed slabs and none of them specifically mentioned
>Jews, but it is quite implicit.  Otherwise, how did publications like
>Pictorial history of the Jewish People come up with this quote?
>I have no problem with your quotes, but tell me----
>Who do you think the four million refer to?  Will you supply us
>with lists of the deported from other countries of Europe who 
>were NOT Jewish, and who were sent to Auschwitz?  

    The point, since you seem to be missing it so badly so frequently, is
that the Poles did NOT supply any such figures, statistics, or lists to
anyone visiting the museum.  So how was it supposed to be "quite
implicit?"

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access2.digex.net Tue Dec 24 08:25:15 PST 1996
Article: 88026 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish math: 6 million minus 2.5 million= 6million, of course!
Date: 24 Dec 1996 01:46:55 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <59nu8v$bsq@access2.digex.net>
References: <597ln4$195k$11@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <59g9qk$30v@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net

In article <59g9qk$30v@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>You know, Gordon, you are starting to finally lose it so much that you are
>sounding more and more like Raj Gandhi every day....perhaps you are....
>At any rate, I never lied.  I didn't have the source in front of me and I
>corrected the info later.  however, it is clear that the alleged jewish victims
>of Auschwitz were simply counted as Polish Nationals by the Communist 
>Regime.

    Very good.  That is what many people have been saying for some time. 


>If this figure did not refer to 4 million jews, then supply us with the
>evidence which proves how many people of different nationalities were sent
>to Auschwitz and never returned.

    It certainly wasn't four million.

    And of course the four million figure never was any component of the
six million figure, because the six million figure was derived by an
entirely different method.  Look again at the subject line of this thread
and see if you can grasp the significance.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access2.digex.net Tue Dec 24 08:25:16 PST 1996
Article: 88028 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish math: 6 million minus 2.5 million= 6million, of course!
Date: 24 Dec 1996 01:55:40 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 29
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NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net

In article <32bd8790.76431597@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Tickle Me Adolph  wrote:
>On 18 Dec 1996 20:26:53 GMT, ibokor@metz.une.edu.au (ibokor) wrote:
>>The error/inflation-of-figures (choose your
>>preferred expression) affected almost exclusively
>>the number of *non-Jewish* victims of these camps.
>
>	When are you folks going to deal with the requirement that either
>the numbers never added up to 12 million or that that number is being
>falsely presented by true believers, Nizkook Central for example. 

    When is Matt Giwer going to deal honestly with the fact that the
totals were never derived on a camp-by-camp basis?


Revisionists are sneaky bastards, always re-lying about facts and figures.
Matt Giwer is currently lying about how the figures for total deaths were
derived.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html



-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access2.digex.net Tue Dec 24 08:25:17 PST 1996
Article: 88086 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!news.bconnex.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish math: 6 million minus 2.5 million= 6million, of course!
Date: 24 Dec 1996 01:23:30 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <59nst2$b71@access2.digex.net>
References: <59gjcu$sfi@news.enter.net> <59hp12$cji@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net

In article <59hp12$cji@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>   yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) writes:

>>  >  So?  What is your contention, then, that 1.5 million Jews were killed at
>>  >  Auschwitz and 2.5 million Gentiles?  Is that what you are now asking us 
>>  >  to swallow?  Lotsa luck...-rb
>>  
>>  	No.  No one is stating that this is the fact.  They have been stating that 
>>  this was the Polish position.  It was.  Why are you so dense?  Or is it just 
>>  dishonesty?
>
>Let's go another round on this----the Poles called the Jews Poles, is that it?
>It doesn't change the fact that the millions referred to were not Poles but Polish
>Jews....entienda...?  Quibble, quibble.....rb

    Guess what?  It also doesn't change the fact that the millions
referred to, whether Jews or Gentiles or Martians, were never used by
anyone to generate the total number of six million.  Therefore changing
that number does not change the six million total, no matter how many
times anyone shouts that it ought to.  Look back at the thread title.
Entienda?

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Dec 24 08:25:17 PST 1996
Article: 88091 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!pumpkin.pangea.ca!out2.nntp.cais.net!in1.nntp.cais.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: More Myshkin Math
Date: 23 Dec 1996 12:10:58 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <59mef2$gab@access5.digex.net>
References: <32c00cfe.2578399@199.0.216.204> <32bdaf3f.86590745@news.gte.  <32be0a84.109246813@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:88091 alt.usenet.kooks:32242

In article <32be0a84.109246813@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Inveigh the kenneth  wrote:
>On Sun, 22 Dec 1996 16:06:48, joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <32bdaf3f.86590745@news.gte.net> 
>>unterdreckenfuehrer@mattgiwer.needs.better.meds.com) writes:
>>
>>>It has been related that at the festival of Purim, Jews usually become
>>>drunk. 
>>
>>Well, I certainly do.  Simhas Torah, as well.  (I may be an agonistic, but I 
>>know a good party when I see one.)  And around our house, the cups of wine at 
>>the seder are filled to the brim by default.  So, yeah, I do get kinda tipsy 
>>about three times a year.  
>
>	So you get involved in ritual murder also?  What a strange
>admission.  But not unexepected.  

    I have already openly admitted that far too many Jews murder rituals
even when sober.  It is only to be expected that intoxication would make
it worse.

    But at the very least I trust that Mr. Rosenberg has the good sense
not to drive the information superhighway while drunk.  Friends don't let
friends do that.

    There has certainly been a lot of speculation as to whether Matt Giwer
has any friends.  The lack would certainly go a long way towards
explaining his posting habits here. 


-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Dec 24 08:25:18 PST 1996
Article: 88126 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel
Subject: Re: 961214: The teeth of Mrs. Aristotle
Date: 18 Dec 1996 01:12:24 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <598208$gvv@access5.digex.net>
References:  
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:88126 alt.fan.ernst-zundel:3261

In article ,
Jamie McCarthy  wrote:
>It turned out crackers had broken into webcom.com this weekend and fried
>their site, inconveniencing (reportedly) 3000 customers, of which the
>Zsite is one.

    How much do you want to bet that Ingrid will claim (without evidence)
that the crackers were agents of you-know-who intent on disrupting the
Zundelsite?

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Wed Dec 25 14:31:31 PST 1996
Article: 88146 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!uunet!in3.uu.net!205.252.116.190!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel
Subject: Re: 961214: The teeth of Mrs. Aristotle
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 22 Dec 1996 19:37:09 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 88
Message-ID: <59kk7l$reh@access1.digex.net>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:88146 alt.fan.ernst-zundel:3264

In article <32bdc8e9.93160819@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Inveigh the kenneth  wrote:
>On 22 Dec 1996 14:02:40 -0500, mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article ,
>>Chris Winkler  wrote:
>>>They can't even come up with the 6 million names for a
>>>monument in Germany that puts one name on a plaque. 
>>
>>    We can't even come up with one friggin' name for any of the bones in
>>the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Arlington, VA.  If a whole village was
>>wiped out, it makes it hard to find the names, as the friends and
>>neighbors who might have provided them were also wiped out.  
>
>	All copies of the town directory were destroyed also?  How
>strainge.  No, not telephone directory.  City directories were in use
>a century before the telephone.  They were useful for things like tax
>collection.  All the towns had them.

    All towns?  In Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Ukraine, down to
100-person villages?  And these directories marked all Jews so that you
could pick out the ones without distinctively Jewish names?

    And of course you will give a source for your Because!  I!  Say!  So!
assertion?


>Then of course there were
>records of members of congregations, even jewish ones.  

    Which congregations would those be?  The synagogues burned by the
Nazis, such as my great-grandfather's synagogue at Chodorow?  You must be
very strange to think that those records were engraved on metal plates
that would survive a fire.


>	You are quite good at making up excuses for things that can not in
>fact be explained.

    You are quite good at making things up out of whole cloth.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html



>>>They can only assinate your character & call you names. I was bombed with
>>>over 1,000 bogus emails from someone who would rather throw rocks from a
>>>distance, instead of fighting fact to face like a man. The little coward
>>>will be paid back by karma, who has a habit of paying you back 100x worse
>>>than the misdeed you comitted.
>>
>>    Did you save the mail with full headers?  I am quite willing to lend
>>what help I can, regardless of any disagreements we may have.  Such
>>stupidity offends me.
>
>	You mean like this stupid shit?
>
>Received: from zorro.bctel.ca (zorro.bctel.ca [204.174.64.65]) by
>mail.gte.net (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AutoCF) via ESMTP id
>PAA24375 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 15:00:48 -0600
>Received: (from nobody@localhost) by zorro.bctel.ca (8.7.1/8.7.1) id
>MAA22357; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 12:58:36 -0800 (PST)
>Message-Id: <199611262058.MAA22357@zorro.bctel.ca>
>Received: from vcta01m03-183.bctel.ca(207.194.23.183) by
>zorro.bctel.ca via smap (V1.3)
>	id sma021966; Tue Nov 26 12:58:17 1996
>Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 13:02:39 -0800
>From: gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca (Rajiv K. Gandhi)

    If you need my help figuring out where this came from, you have but to
ask.  I realize that you are not technically sophisticated and cannot hope
to match my expert techniques at tracking down the source of electronic
messages.


>(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following
>newsgroups:
>alt.revisionism)

    You might have some problem convincing the person's ISP that this is a
mailbomb, however.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access2.digex.net Wed Dec 25 14:31:32 PST 1996
Article: 88170 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dresden
Date: 24 Dec 1996 00:31:18 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <59npr6$a13@access2.digex.net>
References: <32bd85f2.76017353@news.gte.net> <59kpqo$23h@news.enter.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net

In article <59kpqo$23h@news.enter.net>,
Yale F. Edeiken  wrote:
>	I do hope the criminal Giwer will pay a visit Pennsylvania in the near 
>future.

    Perhaps he will drive through on his way to Ottawa to have a chat with
Mr. Dosanj or one of his associates? 

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access2.digex.net Wed Dec 25 14:31:33 PST 1996
Article: 88173 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!news.idt.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.pbi.net!news1.rcsntx.swbell.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: Dresden
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 24 Dec 1996 00:35:02 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <59nq26$a4j@access2.digex.net>
References: <58ihqs$lvh@access5.digex.net> <32b1ef6f.711314581@news.micron.net>  <32bf4341.57715574@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:88173 alt.usenet.kooks:32244

In article <32bf4341.57715574@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
John Bigboote  wrote:
>On Sat, 14 Dec 1996 10:50:31 -0700, mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van
>Alstine) wrote:
>
>>In article <32b1ef6f.711314581@news.micron.net>, kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt
>>Stele) wrote:
>>
>>> Prove that Giwer has been adjudicated a "criminal."    
>>
>>criminal adj. 1 having the nature of crime; being a crime 2 a) involving
>>or relating to crime b) dealing with law cases involving crime 3 guilty of
>>crime 4 [Colloq.) regrettable or deplorable -n. a person guilty of , or
>>legally convicted of, a crime. 
>>
>>guilty adj. 1 having guilt; deserving blame or punishment; culpable 2
>>having one's guilt proved; legally judged an offender 3 showing or
>>conscious of guilt [a guilty look] 4 of or involving guilt or sense of
>>guilt [a guilty conscience]
>>
>>Cf. _Webster's New World Dictionary_ [Third College Edition].
>>
>>As we can see, it is not required that one be "legally convicted" of a
>>crime to be deemed a criminal. Being deserving of blame or punishment for
>>a crime is sufficient to meet the definition. (Hence the phrase "convicted
>>criminal" to delineate one who has been "adjudicated a 'criminal'" from
>>one who is merely guilty of a crime.)
>>
>>The Giwer-swine is certainly guilty, as in deserving blame or punishment,
>>of the crimes he has committed. 
>
>	Rather we have here another lying kike proving once more that yids
>are born liars.  

    Noah Webster was Jewish?  Are you sure about that?
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Dec 25 14:31:33 PST 1996
Article: 88195 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!node2.frontiernet.net!usenet.logical.net!dciteleport.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!mr.net!news.idt.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.pbi.net!news1.rcsntx.swbell.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Now Playing....Irma Grese
Date: 24 Dec 1996 15:32:42 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 185
Message-ID: <59pela$l9n@access5.digex.net>
References:  <5963ch$sof@juliana.sprynet.com> <596i23$qcf@access5.digex.net> <32b76030.99723921@news.micron.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <32b76030.99723921@news.micron.net>,
Kurt Stele  wrote:
>On 17 Dec 1996 11:34:11 -0500, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <5963ch$sof@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>>>   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
>>>  In article <593e5s$o8e@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>>    You know, if Auschwitz was meant to hold people in "protective
>>custody," the Nazis certainly did a piss-poor job.  Given the death rate,
>>the people being "protected" would have been safer in Berlin during the
>>final days of the Third Reich.
>
>Given the assertion the intent purportedly was "extermination" the
>Germans certainly did a piss-poor job.

    Yeah, they didn't manage to work everyone to death as outlined in the
Wannsee Protocol.



>>>Don't you realize how ridiculous you sound by posting this nonsense?--rb
>>
>>    Gee, you don't realize how ridiculous you sound posting your juvenile
>>one-liners and evidence-free assertions about events you did not witness
>>and the thoughts of people you never met. 
>
>Certainly no less "evidence-free" than the assertion the Auschwitz
>death-books listing 70,000 or so Jews dead at Auschwitz for all causes
>is not by and large comprehensive.

    Well, you may have me there.  I was relying on Greg Raven of the IHR
for the statement that there are some missing registers; even he found it
necessary to extrapolate a larger number of deaths than could be found by
simply totaling up the numbers in the available registers.  But given
Raven's general unreliability on matters of source material, perhaps I am
in error. 


>>>>  "The design of the wash barracks and the privies was, in fact, lethal....
>>>>  Architects and bureucrats are to blame: the design was inadequate, and not
>>>>  enough material and financial resources were allocated for the camp's
>>>>  construction. Whether the architects designed to degrade the prisoner's or
>>>>  not, the result was the same: with the latrines submerged in excrement,
>>>>  with very little water to be had at very few points, and with mud ev
>>>>  erywhere, what remained was an inmate population without the means to
>>>>  preserve any outward sign of human dignity. As Des Pres asked, 'How much
>>>>  self-esteem can one maintain, how readily can one respond to the needs of
>>>>  another, if both stink, if both are caked with mud and feces?'
>>>
>>
>>>Er---this hardly answers the question.
>>
>>    What question is it that you think Mr. Van Alstine has failed to
>>answer? 
>
>Whether or not Irma Grese was responsible for the accusations against
>her charged at the Nuremberg Kangaroo Court.

    Mr. Blackmore attempted to excuse the conditions at the camps by
blaming the prisoners for their bodily functions.  He started the
digression.  Now he (and you) blame Mr. Van Alstine for replying to Mr.
Blackmore's point.


>>>And indeed what I wrote was the truth. 
>>
>>    BECAUSE!  I!  SAY!  SO!
>
>Stein would rather believe it if the Nuremberger Kangaroo Court said
>so, or if any eyewitness said so.  Presumably Mike Stein still also
>believes electrocution, steaming, and tilting floors were used.

    There is just one small problem with this: Mr. Blackmore is claiming
to have authoritative knowledge of what happened at the camp WITHOUT being
an eyewitness.  Sorry for pointing out that difference to you.


>>    Were you there?  Why should anyone believe you?
>
>Pot-kettle-black.

    Again you do not seem to understand the difference between making
claims about what you have yourself personally seen, and making claims
about things you did not witness.  Mr. Blackmore did not witness the
personal habits of the inmates.  Therefore he must base his claims about
their allegedly filthy habits on the testimony of others.  He does not
supply that testimony.

    Had he claimed to have been there, I would have asked for confirmation
of it - but if given that confirmation, I could not reply the same way.
Again, are you really unable to see that, or are you just being
disingenuous here?


>>>The same foulness repeated itself at belsen, where the new inmates turned the
>>>camp into a veritable pigsty.--rb
>>
>>    Let me lock you in a room with no toilet facilities.  I guarantee you
>>that sooner or later, you will wet and soil yourself.  Then by your rules
>>I can blame you for urinating and defecating "whenever the urge struck
>>you."  What total idiocy.
>
>Assuming eyewitness testimony is true -- always a hazard when it comes
>to former captives testifying against former captors, especially if
>Eastern European.

    Well, Mr. Blackmore has made claims about the behavior of the inmates.
Perhaps you could tell us what he is basing that on if not eyewitness
testimony of former captors trying to excuse their crimes?  Is it not
equally hazardous to believe that sort of testimony?


>>>Kremer was referring to people who were ill from typhus and dysentery.  they 
>>>were covered with excrement due to their illnesses.  That is why he uses the
>>>term "Anus Mundi".
>>
>>    Because!  I!  Say!  So!
>
>>    Gee, did you talk to Kremer and get that explanation from him
>>personally?  If not, when did you acquire the ability to read the minds of
>>dead people?
>
>When did you gain the ability to verify the eyewitness testimony of a
>pool of witnesses which created such wonderful canards as 
>electrocution and steaming?  Rather when did you obtain your
>credulity?

    Please be so good as to tell us the names of all the people who
testified as direct eyewitnesses to electrocution and steaming.  Use all
the screens you need.



>>>The sewage for Auschwitz was always inadequately built,
>>>thus "backing up" and creating a foul stench throughout the camp, which many
>>>prisoners imagined was the stench of burning bodies.--rb
>>
>>    Because!  I!  Say!  So!
>
>>    Were you there, that you know what smell they smelled and what really
>>generated it?  Do you claim the ability to read the minds of dead people? 
>
>Do you claim the ability to view what actually happened?

    Of course not.  But Mr. Blackmore HAS made that claim, and more - he
claims to know the state of mind of the inmates, that they smelled the
smell of sewage and interpreted _that_ smell as burning bodies.  I'm
asking him to back it up.  Has he talked to someone who was there who can
offer the least bit of substantiation?  If not, then he is presenting his
opinion only.  That's his right, but I wish that he would then phrase it
as an opinion and give his reasons behind it, rather than phrasing it as a
fact as he does consistently.



>>Why should anyone believe you?
>
>Pot-kettle-black.

    I do not phrase my opinions as fact.  Sorry you are having trouble
seeing these points.


>>    And all you can do is assert without evidence, and then claim that you
>>have won the argument.  He brings evidence to the table from people who
>>were there. You simply assert on your own nonexistent authority what
>>people were thinking and why, with ZERO evidence.  Anyone familiar with
>>high school debate knows you would lose _automatically_. 
>
>And all you can do is defend more worthless trash considered
>"testimony: (sic) at the Nuremberg court of victor's vanquish.  There
>is nothing more to your claim.

    We happen to be talking about the Belsen trial, not Nuremberg.  Do you
have anything relevant to say about the evidence?  Do you have any
evidence to support Mr. Blackmore's empty assertions?

    Oh, and do you have any news of Alec's time machine?

    Are you going to take the wager regarding Mr. Giwer's truthfulness?
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Dec 25 14:31:34 PST 1996
Article: 88197 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Now Playing....Irma Grese
Date: 24 Dec 1996 15:35:58 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <59pere$lha@access5.digex.net>
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In article <32b9c8ee.1864494@news.inetport.com>,
Mike Curtis  wrote:
>kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt Stele) wrote:
>>Certainly no less "evidence-free" than the assertion the Auschwitz
>>death-books listing 70,000 or so Jews dead at Auschwitz for all causes
>>is not by and large comprehensive.
>>
>
>Prove that it is. 

    Well ... I may end up eating crow pie on this one.  I was relying on
"revisionist scholar" Greg Raven for this statement.  I really should know
better.


-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access2.digex.net Wed Dec 25 14:31:35 PST 1996
Article: 88210 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish math: 6 million minus 2.5 million= 6million, of course!
Date: 24 Dec 1996 01:52:04 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <59nuik$c1n@access2.digex.net>
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In article <59gb2r$30v@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>>   mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) writes:
>>  >>  >There were 19 such slabs at Auschwitz all repeating the same lies
>>  >>  >in different languages.  Each and every slab has now been etched
>>  >>  >out.--rb
>>  >>  
>>  >>  And not one of them said 'Jews.'
>>  >>  
>>  >>  Amazing!
>>  >>>>>
>>  
>>  >It didn't have to say "Jews".  That was clearly implicit.  Stop playing
>>  >dumb and dumber.-rb
>>  
>>      Rather than engaging in empty assertion and namecalling, perhaps you
>>  would like to explain what facts and/or text and which rules of textual
>>  interpretation make it "clearly implicit" that when the Communists had a
>>  chance to write "Jews" but instead wrote "human beings," they nevertheless
>>  meant "Jews."  Or is this once again based on your telepathic powers?
>>  
>>>>>
>Rather, why don't you supply us with a breakdown of alleged non-Jewish
>deaths at Auschwitz and then let's subtract that from the 4 million.  What do
>you say to that?--rb

    I say that since the initial issue in this thread (look, please, at
the subject line) was whether there is any validity in subtracting the
same three million from the six million as was subtracted from the four
million (there is no validity), it's rather a silly thing to do.

    I also say that you are avoiding the issue that the Poles were quite
careful not to go out of their way to publicize the fact that the majority
of the victims (however many you claim there were) were Jews.  If that
information is not presented, how is someone to know that it should be
implicit?

    Posted/emailed.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access2.digex.net Wed Dec 25 14:31:36 PST 1996
Article: 88216 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.censorship,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: The Great Debate
Date: 24 Dec 1996 02:05:45 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <59nvc9$cdf@access2.digex.net>
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In article <32bf61b5.19787170@news2.cais.com>, Mark  wrote:
>On 21 Dec 1996 20:25:34 -0500, mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>>    I certainly oppose any attempt to shut down revisionist sites.  I hope
>>the person attacking Webcom is caught and punished, whether the target was
>>Zundel or not.  (Remember, a similar attack was launched against panix in
>>New York a while ago, and I don't think they are hosting any revisionist
>>sites.)
>
>I disagree.  We must silence the deniers otherwise they will try to
>convince America's children of their positions which are simply lies
>and propaganda.  This country can only be truly free when "deniers"
>are denied their voice.

    I am free to speak as long as I say what you find permissible?  What
kind of freedom is that?

    I hope you don't believe in killing for peace as well....


> Their hatred must be stopped at all costs.

    Too expensive for my pocket.

    But if moral arguments won't persuade you, consider this: the deniers
are masters at turning their suppression into an argument in their favor.
"We must be right or they wouldn't suppress us!"  Now, that's a logical
fallacy, but unfortunately it's persuasive.

    And the children need to learn critical thinking skills anyway.
Deniers aren't the only ones that use specious arguments.

    It's much better to let them talk.  And besides, once you establish
the principle that unpopular speech may be suppressed, what protects you
when you want to say something unpopular?

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Wed Dec 25 14:31:36 PST 1996
Article: 88285 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: another "holocaust victim"
Date: 23 Dec 1996 01:40:05 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 19
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In article <32be1690.112330303@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Inveigh the kenneth  wrote:
>On 22 Dec 1996 19:46:22 -0500, mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>>    By the way, Matt, are you going to show us your great mathematical
>>skills by finding the math error in the original "revisionist" post in the
>>thread, "Beastly numbers?" 
>
>	Are you going to post the thermal equations for the human body in
>an oven and prove there was no need for added coke afte rhte first
>body?  

    If I do post my answer to that question, will you show the math error
in "Beastly numbers?"
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access2.digex.net Wed Dec 25 14:31:37 PST 1996
Article: 88318 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!node2.frontiernet.net!usenet.logical.net!dciteleport.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mr. Blackmore's antisemitic doggerel
Date: 24 Dec 1996 23:26:57 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <59qaeh$gk6@access2.digex.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net

In article <19961224235800.SAA19765@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
Tutu101  wrote:
>
>    Those were the only people you were talking about, so when you said
>"they" were celebrating Hanukkah, you could only have been referring to
>the people you just reiterated had done terrible and reprehensible things
>to you.  Would you call them _nice_ people?
>
>    Posted/emailed.
>
>I wikll inform you here and now that the 'People celebrating hannukah were
>NOT included as you seem to think.  The people I suspected for the outrage
>are gentiles who post on alt revisionism.

    Really?  Here is what you wrote:

>Indeed, they are far from silenced. Right now they have been attacking
>me unremittingly with spams from porno sites on the web.  They have also
>somehow cut me off from posting through my ISP---and I have heard not a
>word about it from my ISP, though I have sent email after email.  When I
>attempt to post to alt revisionism, a message appears on my screen:  You
>have no permission to talk!  If they are unusually dormant right
>now--perhaps they are celebrating Hannukah--

    You used "they" throughout.  Nobody could possibly know that the
"they" celebrating Hanukkah were not the same "they" who are a) far from
silenced and b) attacking you.  There is simply no way a literate reader
could understand that there are two different sets of people referred to
by "they" in the above paragraph.

    So I guess your defense is that you are not competent in the English
language?  Actually, I can produce quite a bit of evidence for that.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access2.digex.net Wed Dec 25 14:31:38 PST 1996
Article: 88323 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Blackmore vs. Blackmore
Date: 24 Dec 1996 23:49:20 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 65
Message-ID: <59qbog$i7h@access2.digex.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net

In article <32c0a5a4.41221981@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Doc Savage  wrote:
>On 24 Dec 1996 16:37:19 -0500, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>    Or will you be the first to find the blueprint in the Bauleitung files
>>which shows the plumbing for those showers?  Pressac found blueprints for
>>the room referred to as the "Vergasungskeller" in the Bischoff letter
>>showing all other plumbing in the room, but nothing for showers.  Yet
>>there was an inventory sheet showing a small number of showerheads in the
>>room.  These items are physical evidence. 
>>
>>    Now connect this physical evidence to the eyewitness testimony that
>>the room had dummy showers to allay suspicions.  It seems to me to connect
>>better than those showerheads connected to water, if the physical evidence
>>of the blueprints are any guide.
>
>	You are truly making an issue over a minor matter here.  
>
>	Your position is based upon an assumption that drawings and an
>inventory (it can't be that as plant is not inventoried but whatever
>it is) would have everything on them.  That is a custom that is not
>followed even today.  
>
>	Military and other large scale duplicative operations take a
>simpler approach.  The unique things like showerheads are the only
>things listed.  Copper pipe comes from a separate inventory list.  No
>one wastes time creating unique drawings for buildings in war time,
>what the hell do you imagine, that they were put out for bids?  
>
>	The field units have pipe fitters, plumbers if you will.  They are
>told to install them.  Next question.

    If what you claim is true, then why do the drawings have any plumbing
at all?  The plans show plumbing for the sinks.  But they do not show
plumbing for showers.  Why one and not the other?


>	Now I know it drives you up the wall but I did spend well over half
>my time for several years working on the layout of the DDG 51 class.
>You could make exactly the same case that the entire class had fake
>sonars because we never EVER addressed the power cables for them.
>Without power they were fakes, right?

    So no drawing of any kind was ever done for the power cables, not by
anyone anywhere?  However did anyone know where the cables were supposed
to go?  Leave it up to the grunts to run cables wherever they thought they
might be useful?


>	In fact almost everything on the ship was a fake because the power
>cables were never addressed for any system.

    Unfortunately the plumbing _was_ addressed for the sink system.  Yet
it was not addressed for the shower system.  Now explain the discrepancy.

    But please do not let it distract you from choosing which calculations
you want to perform.  What is keeping you from deciding?  Flip a coin if
you're having so much trouble with the decision.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access2.digex.net Wed Dec 25 14:31:39 PST 1996
Article: 88335 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!uunet!in1.uu.net!206.229.87.25!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.pbi.net!news1.rcsntx.swbell.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 961214: The teeth of Mrs. Aristotle
Date: 25 Dec 1996 00:53:03 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 162
Message-ID: <59qffv$jp5@access2.digex.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net

In article <32c0413b.15538282@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Doc Benway  wrote:
>On 24 Dec 1996 09:00:40 -0500, mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <32bee9e4.35308206@news.gte.net>,
>>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
>>John Yaya  wrote:
>>>	Excuse me but you appear to be under the misapprehension that there
>>>were only taxes on real property.  Rather you should look to the taxes
>>>on personal property.  I know you are too young to remember when that
>>>was common in the US but ask your parents about it.  
>>
>>    Did I ever say "real" property?  You claim to have lived in this area
>>yet you seem to forget that Virginia cities and counties tax some personal
>>property, most notably cars.  Since you know where I live you should know
>>I get reminded of this every year. 
>>
>>    Now tell us which babes in arms, which toddlers, which wives owned
>>enough property of any kind in their own names which would cause them to
>>appear on the tax rolls separate from the husband/father of the family.
>>
>>    Sorry.  You lose again.  Only a "revisionist" would buy your attempts
>>at weaseling here.  
>
>	You do appear to be one of the babes in arms.  Until these "modern
>times" people were registered by the household.  As in the male head
>of the house.  The members of his household were listed under him.
>Very chauvanist of course but that is the way it way.

    The question is, why would the tax assessor have any interest in
people other than the one responsible for paying the tax?  Why would he
bother writing down the names of infants who could not pay the tax? 

    Please produce one of those Polish or Russian tax records that
_actually_ has the name of every person in the house, down to babes in
arms, rather than just the name of the head of household.

    Don't have one?  Gee, too bad.  You lose _again_.


>	To remove the rest of your innocense, all kinds of property were
>taxed on the presumption that ownership meant ability to pay taxes.
>You must be too young to have ever heard of the annual visit from the
>assessor's office to go over everything in the house and determine the
>tax bill.  "That clock was not here last year ..." "Would you open
>your jewelry box please?"  That sort of thing.  You really never heard
>of it?  Come now, I really find that hard to believe.

    Since the issue is whether the assessor wrote down the names of the
babies, rather than the clock and its value, your transparent attempt to
change the subject is off topic.

    Produce one tax record from Poland or Russia which has the names of
the entire family written down.  Just one.

    What's that?  Don't have one?  Gee, too bad.  You lose _again_. 



>	Given the depth of ignorance you are expressing here it is quite
>understandable that you do not comprehend how easy it would be to
>collect all of the names.

    It would be quite easy.

    That in no way proves that it was done.  What reason was there to
write down the names of the children?  How does that help collect the tax?

    Produce a Polish or Russian tax record which _actually did_ write down
_all_ of the names or give it up. 

    Don't have one?  Gee, too bad.  You lose _again_. 


>Although frankly, I can not accept that you
>really are not aware of this being the oldest and most common form of
>taxation.

    You are of course desperately trying to change the subject and pretend
I said something I never had so that you can weasel out of having to back
up your argument.  Now please produce a Polish or Russian tax record which
_actually did_ write down _all_ of the names or give it up.

    No such evidence?  Too bad.  You lose _again_. 
  

>>[snip]
>>
>>>	Interesting that for the purposes of this discussion you will claim
>>>jews in easter europe did not keep birth records nor did the towns
>>>they lived in keep such records, nor did synagogues keep such records.
>>
>>    Interesting that you cannot produce any of these records.  Where's
>>your physical evidence?
>
>	You are the one who asserts there were no such records.  I merely
>point out the jewish geneology keeping is more legendary than for the
>LDS.

    I could have sworn that someone named Giwer mocks people who believe
in legends without physical evidence.  Guess I was wrong.

  

>>    And where's your answer to my challenge?  I'll do whichever
>>calculation you want, as long as you subject yourself to the same test you
>>demand I pass.
>
>	You are to post the calculations that support your contention
>without further game playing.

    You were the one who made the _original_ contention.  You said that
cremating a second body without adding fuel after the first cremation was
flatly impossible.  Since it was your claim, you bore the burden of proof.
But you never met it.  You insisted that other people do the work of
disproving _your_ hot air.

    As Matt Giwer is so fond of saying, your claim, your burden of proof. 
You never met it, of course.  Lying frauds like Matt Giwer never do.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html


>It is very clear you can not do so.

    All you have to do to make that as clear as you claim is to agree to
meet a similar challenge which you have already claimed you are capable of
meeting.  Once you agree to do so, I'm stuck. So why aren't you just
rushing to call my bluff?

    The obvious answer is that you were bluffing, and you know I am not.


>You are not the first to play this game.

    You are the only one here playing games.  You claim you know more than
others here, yet all you do is assert.  When called upon to actually back
up your claims with more than hot air, you start weaseling, lying, and
calling names.


>You are at least the third
>and the calculations have yet to be posted.

    Sorry.  You must take the same test that you demand I take.  I can do
what I claim.  All you have to do to put me to the test is agree to do
meet a similar test to prove that you can do what you have claimed you can
do.  For you to demand of me what you are not willing to do yourself is
hypocrisy.  And as Matt Giwer says, hypocrisy is the most despicable of
human traits.

    Accept the challenge and I'm trapped into posting the answer to
whichever of the the two problems you choose for me.  But then you're
trapped into taking on the one you didn't give me.  That is why you don't
accept the challenge.  Because you'll lose _again_, and you know it.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Dec 25 14:31:39 PST 1996
Article: 88336 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!hookup!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mr. Gandhi's "handle"
Date: 23 Dec 1996 19:08:06 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <59n6t6$600@access5.digex.net>
References: <597lnn$195k$15@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <597lnn$195k$15@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <59gcdl$30v@juliana.sprynet.com> <59ifff$ri2$20@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <59ifff$ri2$20@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net>,
Gord McFee  wrote:
>In message <59gcdl$30v@juliana.sprynet.com> - rblackmore@juno.com21 Dec 1996
>09:59:17 GMT writes:
>:>I was never particularly concerned that you were [Jewish].
>:>  I only considered you insane.
>
>Do you consider me insane because I am not Jewish?  You're slipping 
>badly rb.

    Gord, you _must_ be insane not to become Jewish and make yourself the
recipient of the lovingkindness and praise of Stele, Griswald, Aardvark,
Moran, Giwer, Farrakhan, Carto, Pierce, and all their other buddies.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access2.digex.net Wed Dec 25 14:31:40 PST 1996
Article: 88340 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!voskovec.radio.cz!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.pbi.net!news1.rcsntx.swbell.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mr. Giwer's mailbomb
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 25 Dec 1996 01:03:13 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 79
Message-ID: <59qg31$k26@access2.digex.net>
References: <56cpto$cj9@rockall.cc.strath.ac.uk> <32b4cb80.8606033@news.gte.net> <593ghs$p2n@access5.digex.net> <32b5a447.10080824@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net

In article <32b5a447.10080824@news.gte.net>, 
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Halsey  wrote:
>On 16 Dec 1996 07:50:04 -0500, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <32b4cb80.8606033@news.gte.net>,
>>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
>>Halsey  wrote:
>>>	Excuse me but "departure shortly after" the filing of the complaint
>>>which was filed five months after the purported incident leaves a lot
>>>to the imagination.  Rather that the email REQUESTING the purporte
>>>mail bomb was most likely deleted by then,
>>
>>    You made the claim Ken sent it.  Your burden of proof.  But let's
>>ignore that.  You have never even made an assertion about what that
>>question was.  I think it's because you know you cannot fabricate out of
>>whole cloth a question which a) could possibly justify the reply you sent,
>>and b) any intelligent person could possibly believe that Ken would ask.
>>
>>    Go ahead.  Try to come up with such a question.  Give everyone some
>>laughs.  
>
>	Jews are expected to lie.  Continue.  

    Excuse me, but you yourself said that Ken requested what you sent him. 
I merely asked you to come up with a question he could have asked you that
would justify what you sent.

    I guess you cannot think of a lie that you can hope to have even one
person believe.  But it is very funny that you thought you could claim
that I was lying when all I did was ask a question - and not a
wife-beating question but one which should be legitimately answerable. 


>>[snip]
>>
>>>>>As things stand, saying an absolute "It has been proved" only makes
>>>>>you look silly, dishonest or both.
>>>>
>>>>    It certainly appeared to have been proved to Netcom's satisfaction.
>>>>Else why would Mr. Giwer have made such an abrupt departure?
>>>
>>>	As NETCOM said, the volume of complaints was not worth their time
>>>to deal with.  It has nothing to do with the validity of the
>>>complaints, so NETCOM said.
>>
>>    All we have as evidence for this is the worthless eyewitness testimony
>>of a proven liar. 
>
>	I am not a jew.  

    I never said that you were.  Merely a liar.  And I note that Kurt
Stele has not accepted my wager that I can prove your dishonesty to a
neutral arbiter.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html


>>>	But then, jews will lie about everything that happened.  After all
>>>they are jews.  
>>
>>    Rather, Matt Giwer will lie about anything and everything.  He lied
>>about what Colin MacGregor said.  He lies about what other posters here
>>said.  He lies about what he himself said earlier.  And once he even
>>admitted it openly.  So there is no reason to believe him about what
>>Netcom said.
>
>	As I was the only party to my account information, you have no
>other source of information.  

    I have Colin McGregor's letter attesting to what Colin McGregor did
and did not say.  Colin says you lied.  Sorry about that.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Wed Dec 25 14:31:41 PST 1996
Article: 88359 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!newsfeed.luth.se!news.luth.se!erix.ericsson.se!eua.ericsson.se!news.algonet.se!hammer.uoregon.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!newspump.sol.net!mindspring!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.pbi.net!news1.rcsntx.swbell.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 961214: The teeth of Mrs. Aristotle
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 23 Dec 1996 02:10:53 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 113
Message-ID: <59lb9t$5sc@access1.digex.net>
References:  <32bdc8e9.93160819@news.gte.net> <59kk7l$reh@access1.digex.net> <32bdf398.103460519@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <32bdf398.103460519@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Inveigh the kenneth  wrote:
>On 22 Dec 1996 19:37:09 -0500, mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <32bdc8e9.93160819@news.gte.net>,
>>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
>>Inveigh the kenneth  wrote:
>>>On 22 Dec 1996 14:02:40 -0500, mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P.
>>>Stein) wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article ,
>>>>Chris Winkler  wrote:
>>>>>They can't even come up with the 6 million names for a
>>>>>monument in Germany that puts one name on a plaque. 
>>>>
>>>>    We can't even come up with one friggin' name for any of the bones in
>>>>the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Arlington, VA.  If a whole village was
>>>>wiped out, it makes it hard to find the names, as the friends and
>>>>neighbors who might have provided them were also wiped out.  
>>>
>>>	All copies of the town directory were destroyed also?  How
>>>strainge.  No, not telephone directory.  City directories were in use
>>>a century before the telephone.  They were useful for things like tax
>>>collection.  All the towns had them.
>>
>>    All towns?  In Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Ukraine, down to
>>100-person villages?  And these directories marked all Jews so that you
>>could pick out the ones without distinctively Jewish names?
>>
>>    And of course you will give a source for your Because!  I!  Say!  So!
>>assertion?
>
>	I was unaware that small towns kept no tax records

    You also appear unaware that tax records only record property owners
except for those few locations that have a local income tax.  But you are
so totally ignorant of so many things I suppose I should not find your
ignorance on this subject surprising. 


>and that
>synagogues kept no membership (birth to establish lineage) records.
>Without such records no easter european jew could ever prove himself
>to be a jew.  It appears you have just shot down the entire fantasy
>that jews can trace their lineage to being jews.  No one from a small
>town in eastern europe is a provable jew.  Sorry to hear that.  
>
>	Now would you like to swear to what you have just stated or would
>you like to get real?

    As a matter of fact, my synagogue keeps no systematic birth records.
Someone walking in claiming to be a Jew is believed unless there is some
cause to be suspicious.  I will happily swear to that.

    Now perhaps you would like to get real.  And perhaps pigs will sprout
wings.


>>>Then of course there were
>>>records of members of congregations, even jewish ones.  
>>
>>    Which congregations would those be?  The synagogues burned by the
>>Nazis, such as my great-grandfather's synagogue at Chodorow?  You must be
>>very strange to think that those records were engraved on metal plates
>>that would survive a fire.
>
>	That is correct.  Not one person from eastern europe can prove they
>are of jewish descent.

    I did not say all records had been destroyed, but I pointed out that
many records would have been destroyed.  But of course you would not
remember that the initial claim was that not all six million names could
be found, not that no names could be found.

    There are many people who cannot prove their military service record
in this country due to a major fire in a records center a number of years
ago.  There are property records in Arlington, VA which cannot be fully
traced due to a courthouse fire in the '30s.  Only a Giwer would be so
stupid and dishonest as to claim this means that no property record exists
anywhere in the country and no service record could be found for a single
veteran. 


>Who am I to disagree with you?

    A proven and self-confessed liar, as well as an ignorant illiterate. 

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html


>>    You are quite good at making things up out of whole cloth.
>
>	Certainly I am.  No tax records, no lineage records, nothing.  Are
>you saying even the rebbes were illiterate?  

    Tax records will certainly show only Jews who are taxpayers, not all
Jews.  You know that.  You just attempt to lie about it.

    If you think that the tax records can provide six million names, you
must be one of those nuts who thinks that all Jews are wealthy, so every
Jew will be a taxpayer, even babes in arms. 

    And I am not saying the rabbis were illiterate.  Rather, you are
illiterate.

Revisionists are sneaky bastards, always re-lying about facts and figures. 
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Dec 25 14:31:41 PST 1996
Article: 88383 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Blackmore vs. Blackmore
Date: 24 Dec 1996 15:05:03 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 110
Message-ID: <59pd1f$k6m@access5.digex.net>
References:  <59gij5$cap@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <59gij5$cap@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>  mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:

[snip]

>>  >   Footnote 50 leaves no doubt that Kramer was refering to homicidal gassings
>>  >   when calling Auschwitz an extermination camp and _not_, as the lying
>>  >   scumbag Nazi apologist Mr. Belling fallaciously suggests, "typhus and
>>  >   dysentery." To whit: 
>

>"Lying scumbag Nazi apologist" isn't going to help you here, Mark. people
>expect to hear MORE in the line of evidence from you and less in the line
>of insults.



From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No SS Man Was Ever Punished?
Date: 22 Dec 1996 10:13:24 GMT
Message-ID: <59j1k4$hr6@juliana.sprynet.com>

[snip of analogous comment made by Charles R. L. Power, to which Mr.
Blackmore replied:]

I always have a suspicion of people who claim to speak for everyone.
They have bizarre complexes.--rb



    Given your comment about what "people expect" from Mr. Van Alstine,
would you say that you show signs of having a bizarre complex? 

    I cannot help but note that you have a much lower ratio of documented
evidence to insults.  Most of his "evidence" seems to consist of "Because! 
I!  Say!  So!" claims, including one about Dr. Kremer's state of mind when
he wrote the diary which does not sound very convincing when the passage
is read in full. 


>>  >   the bunker. I was brought there in a car. I sat in front with the driver
>>  >   and an SS hospital orderly (SDG) sat in the back of the car with an oxygen
>>  >   apparatus to revive SS men employed at gassing, in case any of them should
>>  >   succumb to the poisonous fumes.
>
>Oh?  How is this, seeing they were all required to wear gas masks? 

    Gas masks are 100% failure-proof, can never be improperly fitted to
the face and allow seepage - is that the claim you are making here?



[snip]

>>  And yout point was, Mr. Belling? What does a supposed account of a ritual
>>  murder of a priest by Jews have to do with Kremer's diary and testimony in
>>  Poland? 
>
>You figure it out if you are so clever.--rb
>>  

>>  Why nothing, of course! You have simply presented yet again another smelly
>>  dead fish for our inspection. Obviously, as you alluded to this above, you
>>  are trying to "prove" that because claims of Jewish Ritual Murder are
>>  false that Kremer's testimony about his diary is false. Unfortunately for
>>  you, Mr. Belling, that dog don't hunt. 
>
>
>Unfortunately for you--it does--and will be shoved in your face at every
>opportunity to discredit your habit of always using accusation to convict
>people instead of evidence.--rb

    And just how does this differ from your habit of always using
assertion to acquit people instead of evidence?  Take for example your
assertions that Kramer could not control his guards, that there were
organisms in the river which could not be killed by boiling, etc.?

    Of course you ignore certain inconvenient differences between the
ritual murder charge and the case at hand:

Ritual murder                        Holocaust
----------------------               -------------------------
No record of Jews calling for        Record of many Nazis calling for
ritual murder of Christians          annihilation of Jews, including SS
                                     court record stating that the Jews
                                     must be exterminated (case of Max
                                     Taubner)

No physical evidence of victim       Physical evidence of victims being
being rounded up                     rounded up

No plans or orders for murder        Notes for "Vergasungskeller" in
weapons                              Krema II, order for cyanide 
                                     detectors; inventory sheet for
                                     showers in a "morgue," gas-tight
                                     door with protective grid on _inside_
                                     of glass peephole


    Perhaps you would care to think about this and see if you can't find
some more.

[ remainder deleted ]

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Dec 25 14:31:42 PST 1996
Article: 88403 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!uunet!in3.uu.net!205.252.116.190!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Matt Giwer
Date: 25 Dec 1996 07:57:20 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <59r8bg$eia@access5.digex.net>
References: <3272FCD8.152C@er4.eng.ohio-state.edu> <32b4fc0d.1392019@news.gte.net> <32B810E6.1A88@gryn.org> <32b971c6.8529522@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <32b971c6.8529522@news.gte.net>, 
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Up front  wrote:
>On Wed, 18 Dec 1996 10:42:30 -0500, Alec Grynspan 
>wrote:
>
>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>
>>> Revisionists are sneaky bastards, always relying on facts and figures.
>
>>Yes, but the rest of the world doesn't have to make them up.
>
>	Rabbi Weissmandel was making it up when he wrote 6 million?  

    There is a bit of a difference between "making it up" and estimating,
but I suppose this distinction is too subtle for Mr. Giwer.


>	The Amazing Weissmandel will tell your fortune, predict the future,
>know the number before "historians" go over the records and find the
>number the hard way.   He will know the number even before it happens.

    The Amazing Giwer with his amazing 163 IQ never considered the fact
that if someone were picking a round million out of a hat he'd have a
decent chance of getting it right.  The number of Jews in Europe was not a
deep dark secret known only to the top Nazis.  A reasonable estimate on
anyone's part at the time would have ranged from four to seven million.

    So let's see, what chance would someone have of picking six million on
a SWAG?  Do you need a lesson in probability theory along with the author
of "Beastly numbers?"  Is that why you have not accepted my challenge? 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Dec 25 14:31:43 PST 1996
Article: 88416 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: out of jealousy
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 25 Dec 1996 08:55:17 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 69
Message-ID: <59rbo5$fo4@access5.digex.net>
References: <32bf1a4f.47233962@news.gte.net> <32bf5991.63427829@news.gte.net> <59oo06$ogd@access2.digex.net> <32c057a0.21271244@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:88416 alt.usenet.kooks:32249

In article <32c057a0.21271244@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Doc Benway  wrote:
>On 24 Dec 1996 09:05:58 -0500, mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <32bf5991.63427829@news.gte.net>,
>>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
>>Doc Benway  wrote:
>>>On 23 Dec 1996 20:41:28 -0500, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>>>Stein) wrote:
>>>
>>>	You fucking fool.  [Hanukkah] was a minor holiday, hardly worthy
>>>of note,
>>>until a few decades ago.  At least that is what Alec Grynspan told me.
>>>If you have a problem, get to him so he can get back here and lie
>>>about what he told me.
>>
>>    Oh, then you meant to say that Jews have inflated a holiday, not
>>created one.  Why can't you express yourself properly?  Did you learn
>>English in one of those public schools that Matt Giwer keeps denigrating? 
>
>	Inflated?  As in it happened to be on the calendar like the
>christian St. Martin's Day, yes.  And as you asked, I learned english
>before I started school, like most people in this country do.

    When are you going to start using it properly and reading it with
comprehension, then?
  

>>>>>It some how
>>>>>does not quite feel in the spirit of the season.  But then, it was
>>>>>their last military victory albeit a temporary one.
>>>>
>>>>    To this day Jews everywhere mourn the crushing defeat inflicted on
>>>>Israel during the 1967 war. 
>>>
>>>	As I said, temporary.
>>
>>    And as you also said, _last_ military victory.
>>
>>    When are you going to tell me which problem you want to do and which
>>one I will do?  I simply cannot understand this delay.
>
>	That was a battle, not a war,

    Winning a battle is not a military victory?  As I said, if you learned
English before school, when are you going to start writing and reading it
correctly?

>or has there been a peace treaty
>signed, a withdrawal of declaration of war, something like that I have
>missed?

    Do the words "Camp David Accords" mean anything to you?

    I seem to recall one or two other accords you may have missed.  Damn
that completely unreliable human memory of mine!  Who was that king fellow
who spoke at Rabin's funeral?  Starts with an "H".... 


>You folks make such an issue of the continuation of that
>state of war, I did not expect you to forget it so quickly.  

    There is still Syria.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Dec 25 14:31:44 PST 1996
Article: 88479 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!pumpkin.pangea.ca!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Matt Giwer, typical kike shyster
Date: 25 Dec 1996 07:44:16 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <59r7j0$ecm@access5.digex.net>
References: <58ihqs$lvh@access5.digex.net> <58kp49$dvl@news.enter.net> <32af0ffe.558312@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <32af0ffe.558312@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Force  wrote:
>On 10 Dec 1996 22:44:25 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>
>>>   mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) writes:
>>
>>>      Perhaps, Mr. Whitaker, you would be so good as to tell us where Mr.
>>>  Ferree "bragged" that he strafed civilians?
>>  
>>>  [excerpt from relevant Chuck Ferree article deleted]
>>
>>>      We know that Matt Giwer has no assets worth pursuing in a libel
>>>  action.  How about you? 
>>
>>	Perhaps the criminal Giwer does not, but his ISP does.
>
>	A typical kike shyster suggesting a harrassing lawsuit knowing full
>well he is making another jew terrorist suggestion.  
>


  
Subject:      class action lawsuit
From:         mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Date:         1996/07/13
Message-Id:   <4s7u12$31t@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
Organization: images incarnate
X-Netcom-Date: Sat Jul 13  5:33:06 AM CDT 1996
Newsgroups:   alt.revisionism



        Is there anyone here interested in a class action lawsuit against McVay
and Nizkor?

        I will be collecting these and forwarding them to an attorney who may b
e
or may not be interested in the case depending upon the responses and
the documentation supporting those responses.

        Please respond email.


-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Dec 25 14:31:44 PST 1996
Article: 88480 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!pumpkin.pangea.ca!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: never believe me but it is the truth
Date: 25 Dec 1996 08:21:54 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <59r9pi$f01@access5.digex.net>
References: <32bf6cc6.68344166@news.gte.net>  <32c05a33.21929904@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <32c05a33.21929904@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Doc Benway  wrote:
>On Tue, 24 Dec 1996 12:01:37 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>wrote:
>
>>10@11.12 (Doc Benway) writes:
>>
>># A good friend of mine is jewish.  He is also a hungarian
>># jew who became a US citizen.
>>
>>Tell us his name. I don't believe you. This "friend" of yours
>>does not exist.
>>
>># He at no time suggested that any jews were sent from Hungary
>># to be gassed, in fact he laughed at the idea.  He stated that
>># any nazi who tried it would lose ten nazis for any jew taken.
>>
>>Pretty odd statement. The kind people who don't exist make.
>>
>># I have another friend claiming descent from a Polish Jew and to be
>># a relative of Lanski. 
>>
>>No you don't.
>>
>># He tells the same story of the ten for one exchange if the Nazis
>># tried it.
>>
>>No he doesn't.
>
>	OK, I don't.  So what is your point?  That the Hungarian communists
>were different from all the rest and not jewish?  Are you trying to
>say the Hungarian and Polish jews were really like you folks want to
>portray them?  
>
>	They were men.  Nazi tried any of the shit you folks claim and they
>didn't get to go home.  That is the way it really was.

    Let's see.  We have physical evidence (train records) of several
hundred thousand Jews disappearing from Hungary - let's be very
conservative and make it 300,000 taken from Hungary. 

    I realize that you have problems with multiplication, so I will say
that ten Nazis for every Jew would work out to 3,000,000 dead Nazis.

    You say that is the way it really was.  Therefore according to your
own rules you should be able to show me the dead bodies or ashes of those
3,000,000 dead Nazis killed in reprisal for 300,000 Hungarian Jews.  Where
is your physical evidence? 

[snip]

>	Read Ayn Rand some day.  Specifically Atlas Shrugged.  It can't
>hurt you and might do you some good.  

    You are no John Galt.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access2.digex.net Wed Dec 25 14:31:45 PST 1996
Article: 88484 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: For Doc Tavish--Kramer Repost 1
Date: 24 Dec 1996 08:50:43 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <59on3j$nhg@access2.digex.net>
References: <59mth4$33r@juliana.sprynet.com> <59npa8$q1f@news.enter.net> <32bf86de.75024309@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net

In article <32bf86de.75024309@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Doc Benway  wrote:
>On 24 Dec 1996 05:22:16 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>
>>>   rblackmore@juno.com writes:
>>>  A week later, they figured out a way to pump water into
>>>  the camp for showering, cleaning, etc.  Any water which was to be used for 
>>human
>>>  consumption, had first to be treated and filtererb
>>
>>	This is your invention.  The testimony -- which you deleted for obvious 
>>reasons, stated otherwise.  Indeed the question as to whether the water was 
>>"potable" was asked and answered in the affirmative.
>
>	Da po widdle intimidated etnic.  

    Thank you for your admission that no defense of Mr. Blackmore on this
point is possible, so it is necessary to try to distract from the issue
with childish babbling.

    When is the po widdle Giwer going to tell me which equations he will
produce and which he wants me to produce?  My pencil is sharp.  My
calculator is ready.  What is the delay here?  I can't understand it.  Do
you find the prospect of being asked to pass the same test you insist on
putting to me to be too intimidating? 

    Da po widdle intimidated Giwer.  Nothing but mouth.  Can't even do
simple multiplication correctly.  Anything more complicated is too
intimidating to him, it would seem.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html


-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access2.digex.net Wed Dec 25 14:31:46 PST 1996
Article: 88497 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!uunet!in2.uu.net!205.252.116.190!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: For Doc Tavish--Kramer III
Date: 25 Dec 1996 13:32:13 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <59rrvd$756@access2.digex.net>
References: <59m3o5$hhs@itssrv1.ucsf.edu> <59pkgm$cjv@juliana.sprynet.com> <32c0ca5e.73792997@news.micron.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net

In article <32c0ca5e.73792997@news.micron.net>,
Kurt Stele  wrote:
>Perhaps the most ridiculous aspect of all of this is how the Germans
>did not at that point in time [the end of the war] simply kill all Jews
>all at once. It is a foregone conclusion the alleged goal was
>extermination.

    My foregone conclusion is that no matter what the goal might have been
in 1941, at the end of the war the actual goal was saving one's own ass. 

    One of the most ridiculous aspects of Holocaust deniers is their
one-dimensional view of people's motives.  If someone has extermination as
a goal, they can never have any other goal which in any way conflicts with
that goal.  Going food shopping in the one hour of free time I have today
"proves" (using "revisionist" logic) that I cannot really want to get a
haircut, because if I had getting a haircut as a goal I would not have
gone food shopping.  And similarly, they take the Nazi's desire to use the
Jews as slave labor as proof they did not desire to kill off the Jews. 
Another tenet of "revisionist logic" is that if someone has extermination
as a goal at time X, that is their goal forever after and it cannot be
changed.


>The
>Soviets would exterminate prisoners just for the sake of convenience.
>Yet the Germans even for convenience did not wipe out these Jewish
>inmates.

    "The Germans" did not have wiping out the Jews as their goal.  Certain
Nazi leaders held that goal.  According to Kurt Becher, Himmler ordered
the end of gassing in Auschwitz in late 1944, when it was apparent the end
was inevitable.  It would appear that saving ass became the goal of higher
priority. 


>Game over, "holocaust".

    So tell us about that time machine of Alec Grynspan's, Kurt....


>"[M]ost of the memoirs and reports [of "Holocaust survivors"] are full
>of preposterous verbosity, graphomanic exaggeration, dramatic effects,
>overestimated self-inflation, dilettante philosophizing, would-be
>lyricism, unchecked rumors, bias, partisan attacks and apologies."  
>
>Jewish historian Samuel Gringauz in _Jewish Social Studies _(New
>York), January 1950, Vol. 12, p. 65.   

    Gosh, those big words sound impressive.  You still don't have a clue
as to what they really mean, though, do you?  Can you at least identify
the most serious charge in that list?


-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access2.digex.net Wed Dec 25 14:31:46 PST 1996
Article: 88499 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 961214: The teeth of Mrs. Aristotle
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 24 Dec 1996 09:00:40 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <59onm8$o3m@access2.digex.net>
References:  <32be461f.124505143@news.gte.net> <59mmvm$m3m@access5.digex.net> <32bee9e4.35308206@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net

In article <32bee9e4.35308206@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
John Yaya  wrote:
>On 23 Dec 1996 14:36:22 -0500, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <32be461f.124505143@news.gte.net>,
>>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
>>John Yaya  wrote:
>>>On 23 Dec 1996 02:10:53 -0500, mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P.
>>>Stein) wrote:
>>>>    You also appear unaware that tax records only record property owners
>>>>except for those few locations that have a local income tax.  But you are
>>>>so totally ignorant of so many things I suppose I should not find your
>>>>ignorance on this subject surprising. 
>>>
>>>	Nice try but property for tax purposes in town meant exactly what
>>>Jews owned in town.
>>
>>    Did I say otherwise?  The question was whether property tax records
>>would give you a _complete_ list of Jews in town.  It would not.  It would
>>only give you the list of Jewish property owners.  It is not clear what
>>point you think you are making here.
>
>	Excuse me but you appear to be under the misapprehension that there
>were only taxes on real property.  Rather you should look to the taxes
>on personal property.  I know you are too young to remember when that
>was common in the US but ask your parents about it.  

    Did I ever say "real" property?  You claim to have lived in this area
yet you seem to forget that Virginia cities and counties tax some personal
property, most notably cars.  Since you know where I live you should know
I get reminded of this every year. 

    Now tell us which babes in arms, which toddlers, which wives owned
enough property of any kind in their own names which would cause them to
appear on the tax rolls separate from the husband/father of the family.

    Sorry.  You lose again.  Only a "revisionist" would buy your attempts
at weaseling here.

[snip]

>	Interesting that for the purposes of this discussion you will claim
>jews in easter europe did not keep birth records nor did the towns
>they lived in keep such records, nor did synagogues keep such records.

    Interesting that you cannot produce any of these records.  Where's
your physical evidence?

    And where's your answer to my challenge?  I'll do whichever
calculation you want, as long as you subject yourself to the same test you
demand I pass.

    Hypocrisy is the most despicable of human traits, remember?  So surely
you would not be so hypocritical as to insist others do what you will not
do yourself. 

    And surely pigs have wings.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Dec 25 14:31:47 PST 1996
Article: 88501 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: another "holocaust victim"
Date: 23 Dec 1996 09:24:35 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <59m4n3$96j@access5.digex.net>
References: <32bd8875.76661019@news.gte.net> <32be1690.112330303@news.gte.net> <59l9g5$5e0@access1.digex.net> <32be4a96.125648681@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <32be4a96.125648681@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
John Yaya  wrote:
>On 23 Dec 1996 01:40:05 -0500, mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <32be1690.112330303@news.gte.net>,
>>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
>>Inveigh the kenneth  wrote:
>>>On 22 Dec 1996 19:46:22 -0500, mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P.
>>>Stein) wrote:
>>>>    By the way, Matt, are you going to show us your great mathematical
>>>>skills by finding the math error in the original "revisionist" post in the
>>>>thread, "Beastly numbers?" 
>>>
>>>	Are you going to post the thermal equations for the human body in
>>>an oven and prove there was no need for added coke afte rhte first
>>>body?  
>>
>>    If I do post my answer to that question, will you show the math error
>>in "Beastly numbers?"
>
>	There is no "IF" in this, you are not capable of formulating such
>equations, you lying piece of shit.  

    I am quite capable of formulating an equation for computing the number
of calories needed to raise a body to ignition temperature in a cremation
oven and will prove it if you answer the challenge I have given you.  The
question is whether you are capable of it, since you have claimed you know
how yet have run away and also lied about having posted it when you never
did.

    But I'll let you off the hook and post the answer for you if you
simply answer the question about "Beastly numbers," or admit that you have
been lying all this time about having competence in mathematics. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access2.digex.net Wed Dec 25 14:31:48 PST 1996
Article: 88504 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!hookup!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: For Doc Tavish--Kramer III
Date: 25 Dec 1996 13:34:58 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <59rs4i$78r@access2.digex.net>
References: <59m3o5$hhs@itssrv1.ucsf.edu> <19961225110900.GAA28774@ladder01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net

In article <19961225110900.GAA28774@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
Tutu101  wrote:
>So, what about these mythical filters, mr. Blackmore?
>
>Brian Harmon  
>------
>
>There are different ways to filter water.  Try this:  From "The Book of
>Survival":
>
>"Treat all water as if polluted.  Crystal-clear water could be
>contaminated.  Tap water polluted.  Mountain stream running from a high
>village or over a dead sheep.  Risks of cholera, typhoid, dysentery, or
>schistosomiasis too great...You talk as if that German river was
>Evian.....

    Not true.  What is true is that you talk as if the measures listed in
the book to treat the water from the river are Herculean.... 

    Posted/emailed.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access2.digex.net Wed Dec 25 14:31:49 PST 1996
Article: 88507 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!solace!nntp.uio.no!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: out of jealousy
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 24 Dec 1996 09:05:58 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <59oo06$ogd@access2.digex.net>
References: <32bf1a4f.47233962@news.gte.net> <59ncc8$8v9@access5.digex.net> <32bf5991.63427829@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:88507 alt.usenet.kooks:32254

In article <32bf5991.63427829@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Doc Benway  wrote:
>On 23 Dec 1996 20:41:28 -0500, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <32bf1a4f.47233962@news.gte.net>,
>>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
>>John Bigboote  wrote:
>>>	Just to have something to do around the Christmas season, jews have
>>>created a holiday, the celebration of a military victory.
>>
>>    Yes, I confess, it is all true.  In 165 BC they got jealous of the
>>holiday that would be created centuries later. 
>
>	You fucking fool.  It was a minor holiday, hardly worthy of note,
>until a few decades ago.  At least that is what Alec Grynspan told me.
>If you have a problem, get to him so he can get back here and lie
>about what he told me.

    Oh, then you meant to say that Jews have inflated a holiday, not
created one.  Why can't you express yourself properly?  Did you learn
English in one of those public schools that Matt Giwer keeps denigrating? 
  

>>>It some how
>>>does not quite feel in the spirit of the season.  But then, it was
>>>their last military victory albeit a temporary one.
>>
>>    To this day Jews everywhere mourn the crushing defeat inflicted on
>>Israel during the 1967 war. 
>
>	As I said, temporary.

    And as you also said, _last_ military victory.

    When are you going to tell me which problem you want to do and which
one I will do?  I simply cannot understand this delay.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Wed Dec 25 14:31:49 PST 1996
Article: 88520 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!wesley.videotron.net!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish math: 6 million minus 2.5 million= 6million, of course!
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 21 Dec 1996 23:47:00 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <59ieg4$3v3@access1.digex.net>
References: <32c7f76b.5193865@news.inetport.com> <59hp65$cji@juliana.sprynet.com> <32dd6aef.27035701@news.inetport.com> <32bc829e.9630549@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <32bc829e.9630549@news.gte.net>, 
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Up front  wrote:
>On Sat, 21 Dec 1996 22:59:02 GMT, mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis)
>wrote:
>>Elohim is the one of the names of God, if I recall correctly. Part of
>>the JEPD. (It's the E part.) Yahweh is the J part. That was the other
>>name for God. It wasn't cleared up until Moses asked the real name. 
>>
>>So it would be nice to no who the US is rather than your evasions.
>
>	A whacko true believer here and a holohugger which requires an
>equally strong faith.  Elohim, female plural, a reference to the seven
>Sumarian goddess who created the earth, i.e. everything.  

    Just for your information 'im' is the masculine plural in Hebrew, not
feminine. 

    But why spoil your perfect record of loudmouthed ignorance? 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Dec 25 16:16:10 PST 1996
Article: 32242 of alt.usenet.kooks
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!pumpkin.pangea.ca!out2.nntp.cais.net!in1.nntp.cais.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: More Myshkin Math
Date: 23 Dec 1996 12:10:58 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <59mef2$gab@access5.digex.net>
References: <32c00cfe.2578399@199.0.216.204> <32bdaf3f.86590745@news.gte.  <32be0a84.109246813@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:88091 alt.usenet.kooks:32242

In article <32be0a84.109246813@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Inveigh the kenneth  wrote:
>On Sun, 22 Dec 1996 16:06:48, joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <32bdaf3f.86590745@news.gte.net> 
>>unterdreckenfuehrer@mattgiwer.needs.better.meds.com) writes:
>>
>>>It has been related that at the festival of Purim, Jews usually become
>>>drunk. 
>>
>>Well, I certainly do.  Simhas Torah, as well.  (I may be an agonistic, but I 
>>know a good party when I see one.)  And around our house, the cups of wine at 
>>the seder are filled to the brim by default.  So, yeah, I do get kinda tipsy 
>>about three times a year.  
>
>	So you get involved in ritual murder also?  What a strange
>admission.  But not unexepected.  

    I have already openly admitted that far too many Jews murder rituals
even when sober.  It is only to be expected that intoxication would make
it worse.

    But at the very least I trust that Mr. Rosenberg has the good sense
not to drive the information superhighway while drunk.  Friends don't let
friends do that.

    There has certainly been a lot of speculation as to whether Matt Giwer
has any friends.  The lack would certainly go a long way towards
explaining his posting habits here. 


-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Wed Dec 25 16:16:11 PST 1996
Article: 32256 of alt.usenet.kooks
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.usenet.kooks,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mr. Giwer's mailbomb
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 22 Dec 1996 20:15:09 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 82
Message-ID: <59kmet$sbh@access1.digex.net>
References: <56cpto$cj9@rockall.cc.strath.ac.uk> <32bcbd66.24678736@news.gte.net> <59imcs$o3r@access4.digex.net> <32bdad78.86136186@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.usenet.kooks:32256 alt.revisionism:88547

In article <32bdad78.86136186@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Tickle Me Adolph  wrote:
>On 22 Dec 1996 02:01:48 -0500, mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <32bcbd66.24678736@news.gte.net>,
>>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
>>Tickle Me Adolph  wrote:
>>>On 13 Dec 1996 10:37:21 -0500, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>>>Stein) wrote:
>>>>case, I would say that seeing a relationship between Mr. Giwer's sudden
>>>>departure from Netcom, and the mailbomb complaint filed shortly before
>>>>said departure, is _not_ a "post hoc ergo propter hoc" fallacy. 
>>>
>>>	However it is not only a fallacy but a lie as Netcom gave the
>>>reason as the harrassment they received.
>>
>>    Since Colin McGregor of Internet Direct in Canada says Matt Giwer lied
>>about what Mr. McGregor said (see first URL below), it is difficult to see
>>why anyone should believe a proven and confessed liar such as Matt Giwer
>>when he reports what was said by any other ISP.
>
>	I have not quoted Colin McGregor in this matter.

    You have most certainly made a paraphrased claim about what Mr.
McGregor said.  The subject was Marduk's identity, not the reason for your
termination, but then I did not specify the nature of your lie in my
previous post.  DejaNews gives us the physical evidence once again.


  
Subject:      Re: Giwer-troll is not droll
From:         mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date:         1996/04/26
Message-Id:   <4lq1hv$4k4@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
Organization: images incarnate
X-Netcom-Date: Fri Apr 26  3:29:51 AM CDT 1996
Newsgroups:   alt.revisionism

gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <4l684p$a71@wi.combase.com>, mgiwer@combase.com (Matt Giwer)
>said:

        Honk your nose on someone else's phone.

        Were it not for MacGregor admitting you are Marduk there might
have been a problem with identifying you.


-------------------
alt.revisionism

6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.

   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?



    This is the second time I have caught you lying about the above post.
You are certainly not a very fast learner.


>I cited the
>statements of the CEO of Idirect.ca in his conversation with the CEO
>of Combase.  I did message Mr. McGregor my sympathy for having to
>front a story that he knew nothing about and was told to tell.
>
>	If you would make the effort to get the CEO on line for comment
>then you have something related to what I have said.  Until you do
>that, you have only the word of a flunky without direct knowledge of
>events.

    Since I am relying on your own post for what you claim Mr. McGregor
said about Marduk's identity, it would appear that you are either lying or
you are admitting that you are a flunky without direct knowledge of
events.  Would you care to tell us which one it is?
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Wed Dec 25 20:35:30 PST 1996
Article: 88608 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!wesley.videotron.net!news-penn.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news1.rad.net.id!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: hey, holobuggers!
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 21 Dec 1996 23:01:47 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <59ibrb$38v@access1.digex.net>
References: <32bc94d2.14290770@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <32bc94d2.14290770@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Tickle Me Grabner  wrote:
>	Why was the one day boycott against jewish shops on 1 April 1933
>designed so as NOT TO HARM any jewish shopkeeper?  
>
>	Why will you not answer?  

    Already did.  Read everything which is posted or do not try to
participate in these discussions.  If you are missing posts, get a new
service provider.  That is the Giwer Rule which was announced nearly a
year ago.  Deal with it.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Wed Dec 25 20:49:07 PST 1996
Article: 40548 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!node2.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.censorship,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: The Great Debate
Date: 25 Dec 1996 23:35:53 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <59svb9$8j1@access1.digex.net>
References: <199612120033.QAA01666@mailmasher.com> <59he0v$c4t@lex.zippo.com> <32cd7e68.13999668@news.inetport.com> <32bf60a6.19516335@news2.cais.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:88668 alt.censorship:113091 alt.politics.nationalism.white:40548 alt.politics.white-power:53379

In article <32bf60a6.19516335@news2.cais.com>, Mark  wrote:
>[...] The anti-semites are very insulting, and do not have
>appeared to read newspapers or television or anything else except for
>their own prejudices.  It's time we did away with them on the Net.

    And just how do you propose to do that without violating the law and
the Constitution?

    I don't suppose you'd care to defend your opinions under a real name
and email address, would you?

    Posted/not emailed because "Mark@worldcom.com" is not a valid user ID. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Thu Dec 26 09:02:35 PST 1996
Article: 88680 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!mindspring!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel
Subject: Re: 961214: The teeth of Mrs. Aristotle
Date: 22 Dec 1996 14:02:40 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 221
Message-ID: <59k0kg$kjq@access1.digex.net>
References:  <599dul$fou@Networking.Stanford.EDU> <32d8fcc4.15401811@news.mbay.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:88680 alt.fan.ernst-zundel:3279

In article ,
Chris Winkler  wrote:
>Nizkor has nothing relevent to say about the zundelsite.

    You have covered all 100+ GB of Nizkor, is that correct?


>They can't. The
>truth hurts. They can't even come up with the 6 million names for a
>monument in Germany that puts one name on a plaque. 

    We can't even come up with one friggin' name for any of the bones in
the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Arlington, VA.  If a whole village was
wiped out, it makes it hard to find the names, as the friends and
neighbors who might have provided them were also wiped out.


>They can only assinate your character & call you names. I was bombed with
>over 1,000 bogus emails from someone who would rather throw rocks from a
>distance, instead of fighting fact to face like a man. The little coward
>will be paid back by karma, who has a habit of paying you back 100x worse
>than the misdeed you comitted.

    Did you save the mail with full headers?  I am quite willing to lend
what help I can, regardless of any disagreements we may have.  Such
stupidity offends me.


>Nizkor, can you answer the following figures put together by an engineer?
>I want a clean debate.

    So do I.  But you should be aware that a clean debate includes no
lying, whether overtly or by omission.  This engineer may have been an
innocent dupe, but the matter of the Anne Frank diary is most certainly
based on a lie.  The other problems could be honest ones based on
ignorance and insufficiently rigorous analysis.


>christ
>----------------------
>
>"I am a mechanical engineer, and have principally worked in the materials
>handling field. Having mega doses of "Holocaust" force-fed to me via my
>visual and audio senses, I have decided to review the available data from a
>standpoint of having to engineer such a project.
>
>Let us examine the claim that 4 million Jews perished at Auschwitz.

    Let's also recognize that this figure, though mentioned at the time,
was rejected by Reitlinger in the '50s, Hilberg in the '60s, and by many
western historians since.  The Communists were the main purveyors of the
four million figure, and they soft-pedaled the Jewish aspect of the
deaths.  The plaques at the site bearing the four million figure said
people, not Jews.

    The high-end figure now commonly accepted is 1.5 million.  Pressac
puts it well under one million, mainly due to a dispute over how some of
the transportation and registration records are to be interpreted.  I
think Pressac is right - some records which were thought to represent two
separate trains really cover the same train, and therefore cut in half the
gross number of deportees represented by those records.  Since the death
toll at Auschwitz was calculated by subtracting survivors and those known
to have been transferred elsewhere from the number shipped in, reducing
the number shipped in reduces the death toll.


>At the close of the war (1945), there were 15 (5 sets of 3 each) crematoria
>found at Auschwitz by the Allies. I checked a local undertaker and also a
>crematoria and they informed me that it takes 4-6 hours to cremate a human
>body. Given an average of 5 hours each, a maximum of 75 bodies could be
>disposed of in a given day.

    Highly simplistic thinking.  First, different crematoria process at
different rates - some ovens have higher capacities than others.  Second,
a commercial crematorium must take the time to cremate as thoroughly as
possible, one body at a time no matter how large or small, and (this is
important) to completely clean out the ashes from one cremation before
introducing a second body into the retort.

    A man who designs and sells commercial cremation ovens told me that
his product, if forced into service as an incinerator for the disposal of
human bodies with no thought given to dignity of the dead or cosmetic
condition of the ashes (longer burning turns them whiter), would be able
to process one average adult body an hour.  However, in normal use, a
crematorium will take 2-3 hours to process a body using that same model of
oven.

    The true measure of capacity is in weight per hour.  Ten 15-lb infants
can be burned in the same amount of time as one 150-lb adult, if you don't
care about keeping their ashes separate.  Since the victims at Auschwitz
would have been disproportionately old people and children, because they
were useless as slave labor, this is an important consideration.

    Last, it was also reported by both witnesses and a photograph from the
resistance that (as you claim) the number of bodies exceeded the capacity
of the crematoria, and bodies were therefore burned in the open air on
pyres. 



>Now, 3,560/day meant approximately 445,000 lbs of carcasses (@ 125 lbs.)

    Basis for this estimate of average weight?  Remember the skewed
distribution of victims, with a much larger proportion of children. 

    Also, when using the more conventional (but still high) 1.5 million
figure, even over just two years, not three, that is 2,143 per day, not
3,560.  It never ceases to amaze me how tenaciously holocaust
"revisionists" keep attacking the strawman 4,000,000 figure long after its
death was announced in the west. 


>would have to be efficiently managed. Effective management of this type of
>tonnage would require automated conveying equipment similar to a trolley
>conveyor found in meat packing establishments. We are talking about 445,000
>lbs (220 tons) a day. There is no way that this much material could be
>handled without automated conveying equipment.  Even a meat packing plant
>1/10th the capacity would have to shut down without it's conveyors.

    I do not believe that is true.  Rather, it is economically inefficient
to hire enough people to substitute for the conveyors.  But this is not so
much of a problem when you have slave laborers.


>Of
>course, no such conveyors were in evidence.
>
>It takes the BTU equivalent of 200 lbs. (1/10th ton) of coal to cremate a
>human body.

    No source or conditions are given for this figure; I find it difficult
to believe that a materials handling engineer is also a skilled
crematorium operator.  Now, is that figure the total required to bring the
oven up from a cold start to do the first body?  Because once an oven is
going, the body is itself fuel.  The second body does not require the full
200 lbs. if it is introduced into an oven still hot from the previous
cremation.

    The Auschwitz ovens used a multiple-retort design, which feeds
multiple burning chambers from the same oven.  I am not aware of a single
commercial crematorium which uses such equipment.  I cannot say what fuel
efficiency this gains, but it seems likely that it would provide some -
else why bother to design such a model in the first place? 


>Therefore, approximately 800 million pounds or 400,000 tons of
>coal would be required. It would strain credulity to believe that Hitler
>would commit this amount of resource energy to the cremation of Jews during
>wartime especially when they were capable of converting coal to various
>other fuels.

    It strains credulity to believe that Hitler would commit the resources
he did to rounding up the Jews in the first place.  But somehow
"revisionists"  who make arguments about how illogical such-and-such would
have been never seem to be able to grasp the big one above.  So do we
conclude that the concentration camps themselves were hoaxes? 



>In 1991, the Russians released captured German records of operations at
>Auschwitz. The records show a death toll of 74,000 of a wide myriad of
>ethnic backgrounds.

    I believe you will find that those records are not complete - that is,
they do not even cover all the months of operation.


>As we saw above, the crematoria had a capacity of 15 a
>day.

[Note: '15' is a typo for 75 above.]

>Given a maximum of 1,000 days, Auschwitz could have handled 75,000
>which is in keeping with expected deaths.

    There were 46 ovens in Birkenau and six more in Auschwitz for a total
of 52.  You are telling us that each oven could handle only 1-1/2 bodies
in a 24-hour period.  Even on the six-hour figure given above, and with 12
hours downtime, the minimum capacity should have been 104 a day. 
Something seems very wrong with this engineer's math.  But as I have
discussed above, there is no reason to think that the six-hour figure had
any relevance to the operations at Auschwitz, and several reasons to think
otherwise. 

    And this is before we consider any disposal of bodies on pyres.


>Nothing above is meant to diminish the terror and tragedy of what took
>place at Auschwitz, it is merely an examination from an engineering
>standpoint.
>
>The claim of 4 million at Auschwitz is not even a good lie. It is not even
>a bad lie. In order for it to be a lie at all, it must have some
>believability. This claim has none.

    And serious Western historians have agreed since Reitlinger in the
'50s.  I think that strawman is dead.


>Some time ago, I read of the Anne Frank Diary hoax and how her Father,
>Otto, had plagiarized another literary work and palmed it off as his
>daughter's. At that time I was disturbed that a human could descend to such
>a vile endeavor as to make a buck off his dead daughter.

    Unfortunately our revisionist engineer somehow missed the extensive
forensic testing done on the diary by the Netherlands State Forensic
Institute which conclusively showed that the diary was, indeed, written by
Anne Frank.  It appears that Robert Faurisson lied, to put it bluntly.
There were some ballpoint pen markings, but they were very few, clearly in
a different hand, and were added during the preparation of the diaries for
publication.  Any honest person would have recognized and reported that.

    Anyway, there are some answers for you.  You may accept them, you may
not, but I hope you now at least accept that you were quite wrong when you
said that there was no answer possible to the Zundelsite.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access2.digex.net Thu Dec 26 09:02:37 PST 1996
Article: 88710 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!pumpkin.pangea.ca!news.mira.net.au!vic.news.telstra.net!news.telstra.net!news-out.internetmci.com!dciteleport.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!nntp.crl.com!news.pbi.net!news1.rcsntx.swbell.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Paranoid Holocaust Fundamentalists
Date: 24 Dec 1996 01:00:31 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 87
Message-ID: <59nrhv$aph@access2.digex.net>
References: <5997nr$d1u@access5.digex.net> <59g4gc$30v@juliana.sprynet.com> <59n7ic$6cv@access5.digex.net> <59nd9a$1p9@rigel.infonex.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net

In article <59nd9a$1p9@rigel.infonex.com>,
anonymous  wrote:
>In article <59n7ic$6cv@access5.digex.net>,
>Michael P. Stein  wrote:
>
>>Now, if I were paranoid,
>>I'd almost think that the attack was launched by a revisionist to try to
>>discredit Nizkor.  
>
>You are paranoid, which is why you did think so and typed it
>out to share with the rest of us.

    With your great telepathic powers, you are obviously wasting your time
posting here when you could be making big bucks running a psychic hotline.

    Your telepathic powers certainly must be greater than your
mathematical powers.  Did you find your error yet?


>>Do you really think anyone from Nizkor would be so
>>stupid as to launch such an attack from someplace close to home? 
>
>A typical supremicist line of argument.  If Nizkor doesn't manage
>to get away with it then they couldn't have done it!

    Hey, revisionists use it all the time.  "Do you really think the Nazis
would have been so stupid as to ship Jews all over Europe in order to kill
them?  Obviously not, therefore they wouldn't have done it."  If it's good
enough for you in that case, why is it suddenly no good now?


>Covers
>all the bases.  What this really indicates is not your
>invulnerability, but instead your rather narrower ability to dream 
>up cleverly self-serving delusions.  In that narrow kind of skill 
>I'll grant you your superiority.

    Nizkor is superior in computer expertise, too.  When Nizkor was
subjected several mailbomb attacks, Ken set up a defense not only to
divert the mailbombs but to automatically respond and shut down the
attack.  He then worked with system administrators to catch the actual
culprit.  Nizkor blamed Jeff Dranetz, not Zundel.


>Otherwise, I'm sorry to have to break the news to you: you are not 
>mental ubermensch.

    You could be right about that.  But at least I can do probability
equations correctly.  Right now Matt Giwer is trying to decide which math
problem he wants to tackle and which one he wants to hand to me.  Once he
does, you'll get your math lesson.


>You are not "Chosen People".  You screw things up just like goyim.

    Oh, sure.  No argument.  Never claimed otherwise.

    We just don't screw things up as often or as badly as revisionists. 


>Nizkor and their cult of Holocaust fundamentalists 
>are just another greedy group who whine about being victimized 
>and claim superiority at the same time; who get paranoid when 
>confronted with anybody who doesn't agree with the self-serving 
>delusions that they propagate.  Delusions that would have us beleive
>that they are or should be in an intellectually or morally privileged 
>position, because of the historical passion play they've managed to
>get a bunch of self-serving media barons and gullible schoolchildren 
>and politicians to temporarily believe.

    I claim no moral or intellectual privilege on the basis of my
parentage or history, and I agree with you that nobody else should either. 
I say what I say, and I do what I do. I ask to be judged on that, and that
alone. 


>Whether the Zundelsite was attacked by Zionists or not, we have to admit
>that in the field of creating self-serving sob stories they don't
>match the skill of Nizkor, much less its more highly
>skilled cultural cousins and ancestors.

    You must not read the Zundelgrams very carefully, then.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access2.digex.net Thu Dec 26 09:02:38 PST 1996
Article: 88747 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!newsfeed.luth.se!news.luth.se!erix.ericsson.se!eua.ericsson.se!news.algonet.se!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.pbi.net!news1.rcsntx.swbell.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: How much body is water
Date: 24 Dec 1996 00:01:45 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <59no3p$9eg@access2.digex.net>
References: <32bf5437.62057780@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net

In article <32bf5437.62057780@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Doc Benway  wrote:
>	Just to get those who REFUSE to post equations but insist they can
>going here,

    You are certainly in that category.


>the question is how much body fat is normal or rather how
>close is the body to being all water.

    Who asked that question?  You seem to be avoiding the issue here.

    You've been offered your choice of which of two problems you want to
solve.  I've committed to take the other.  Feel free to stick me with
whichever you think is the harder one.  What are you waiting for?  Need
new batteries for your calculator?  Pencil sharpener on the fritz?  Dog
ate your math book?


>	Fact:  The difference between a floater and a sinker is whether the
>person died before or after entering the water.  If AFTER the lungs
>are filled with water and a sinker. If before then there is air in the
>lungs and a floater.  
>
>	The max capacity of lungs fully expanded is about two liters.
>Under normal "dead" conditions one expects 1/2 to 1 liter of air
>trapped in the lungs to make a floater.  
>
>	Upon such a small volume depends the bouyancy of the human body,
>that of all mammals for that matter.  
>
>	See how simple it is you equation shy folks?

    Then you should have no problem accepting my challenge.  Just accept
it and you get my equations.  But you must also produce some.  From the
way you have been boasting but never actually backing up your boasts, I
don't think you can.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access2.digex.net Thu Dec 26 09:02:38 PST 1996
Article: 88762 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!pumpkin.pangea.ca!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: For Doc Tavish--Kramer III
Date: 25 Dec 1996 13:16:25 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 111
Message-ID: <59rr1p$6i6@access2.digex.net>
References: <59np43$q1f@news.enter.net> <19961225112900.GAA28978@ladder01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net

In article <19961225112900.GAA28978@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
Tutu101  wrote:
>
>	I will wager that you never read a book on emergency health 
>measures.  *All* bacteria can be killed by boiling water.
>
>	Now you are giwering us with fake "science."
>
>	--YFE
>
>Yale. you are going to bite the big one with that remark...all bacteria 
>can NOT be killed by boiling.

    So please tell us, of the few that cannot, how common are they, and
which diseases do they cause? 

    So please tell us, what reason did Kramer have to think that the river
was polluted with such bacteria? 


>I have posted a reference for this in the
>past, but here is a new one for you...Don't claim a month from now that
>you never saw it.  I will also email it to you.  From:  The Book of
>Survival--Anthony Greenbank:
>
>Water Purifying
>
>Treat all water as if polluted.  Crystal-clear water could be
>contaminated.  Tap water polluted.  Mountain stream running from a high
>village or over a dead sheep.
>Risks of cholera, thyphoid, dysentery, or schistosomiasis too
>great....Various methods to purify water....So...to purify:

    Would you please explain, in your own words, what you think "Various
methods to purify water" means?


>Strain all water through a cloth or folded hankerchief to suspend grit,
>gravel, dust, sand,...

    Please tell us how this kills bacteria.

    Please also produce evidence to demonstrate why Kramer and his staff,
using any healthy prisoners if need be (since you have claimed that such
were available), could not have implemented this measure.


>Boil hard for at least a minute  (longer preferably)

    Please tell us why, if this is so totally useless due to the existence
of bacteria which can survive boiling, the book bothers to list it. 

    Please also produce evidence to demonstrate why Kramer and his staff,
using any healthy prisoners if need be (since you have claimed that such
were available), could not have implemented this measure.


>Add five drops of iodineto 2 pints of water or 10 drops to sterilize
>cloudy water

    Please also produce evidence to demonstrate why Kramer and his staff,
using any healthy prisoners if need be (since you have claimed that such
were available), could not have implemented this measure.


>Let stand for thirty minutes.  Sterilize mouth of container with drop of
>water and wait a little bit longer.

    Please also produce evidence to demonstrate why Kramer and his staff,
using any healthy prisoners if need be (since you have claimed that such
were available), could not have implemented this measure.



>Pinch of salt can improve taste...

    I think prisoners dying of thirst might have been willing to forego
Perrier.  But that's just my worthless opinion.


>Water purifying tablets...

    I will grant that Kramer might not have had any of these.

    But neither did primitive peoples - water purifying tables are a
modern invention.  So please tell us how so many of our ancestors managed
to survive all that horrible polluted water for so many years before our
technological age. 


>Now, do you still insist those folks, already serious weakened by
>disease...typhus and dysentery....drank to their heart's content from the
>river without anything being done to filter and purify it?

    I trust you will excuse me for jumping in - I know you seem not to
realize that one of the rules of Usenet is that public posts are available
for public comment, and if you want to have a private conversation you
should use private email.  In any event, the claim is not that the people
could drink from the river without anything being done to treat it.  The
claim is that several of the actions listed in the book you yourself cite
in support of your argument are things that Kramer could have done with
the resources available to him had he been willing to exert a bit more
effort on his own rather than throwing up his hands when no help came from
higher authority.

    Posted/emailed.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Dec 26 09:02:39 PST 1996
Article: 88775 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!uunet!in3.uu.net!205.252.116.190!feed1.news.erols.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: For Doc Tavish--Kramer III
Date: 24 Dec 1996 12:47:32 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <59p4vk$fs2@access5.digex.net>
References: <32bdbede.335013@news.zippo.com> <59no3m$q1f@news.enter.net> <32bf8823.75349685@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <32bf8823.75349685@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Doc Benway  wrote:
>On 24 Dec 1996 05:01:42 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>[ a lot of factual information showing good reason to suspect that "Rabbi
>Reichorn" may never have existed]


>	Wadda fuckin kike ethnic!!!

    It is interesting to see what a panic Matt Giwer has been thrown into
by my challenge to demonstrate the vast scientific and mathematical skills
he claims.  I have agreed to accept his challenge to show my own work if
he simply picks which of two reasonably simple problems he agrees to
solve, while I am stuck with the other one.  He has control.  He can give
me the harder problem.  Yet he does not answer.  Instead he runs around in
a frenzy posting tens of messages with childish drivel like the above.

    Surely Mr. Giwer has been telling us the truth about his knowledge and
abilities. 

    Surely Mr. Giwer could not be afraid of this challenge.

    Surely pigs have wings.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Dec 26 09:02:40 PST 1996
Article: 88777 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!node2.frontiernet.net!usenet.logical.net!dciteleport.com!worldnet.att.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Correcting Giwer's and Blackmore's scientific ignorance
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 26 Dec 1996 09:51:43 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 85
Message-ID: <59u3dv$npb@access5.digex.net>
References: <59np43$q1f@news.enter.net> <32c2016f.130256230@news.gte.net> <59taac$dpd@access1.digex.net> <32c2449a.146743177@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <32c2449a.146743177@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Doc Savage  wrote:
>On 26 Dec 1996 02:43:08 -0500, mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <32c2016f.130256230@news.gte.net>,
>>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
>>Doc Savage  wrote:
>>>On 25 Dec 1996 13:16:25 -0500, mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P.
>>>Stein) wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article <19961225112900.GAA28978@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
>>>>Tutu101  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>	I will wager that you never read a book on emergency health 
>>>>>measures.  *All* bacteria can be killed by boiling water.
>>>>>
>>>>>	Now you are giwering us with fake "science."
>>>>>
>>>>>	--YFE
>>>>>
>>>>>Yale. you are going to bite the big one with that remark...all bacteria 
>>>>>can NOT be killed by boiling.
>>>>
>>>>    So please tell us, of the few that cannot, how common are they, and
>>>>which diseases do they cause? 
>>>>
>>>>    So please tell us, what reason did Kramer have to think that the river
>>>>was polluted with such bacteria? 
>>>
>>>	Perhaps Kramer read the same material that has been known to
>>>campers from around the time of Pasteur?  Holohuggers being ignorant
>>>of such matters of course.  
>>
>>    You are correct - I was not aware of Pasteur listing any bacteria
>>which are immune to boiling.  Perhaps you would care to list such material?
>>You can't?  Why am I not surprised?
>>
>>    There is an ambiguity here which I should point out - the issue is (or
>>should be) whether there are strains of dangerous bacteria which are
>>completely immune to boiling.  As I shall explain below, the issue of
>>whether each and every cell is guaranteed to be killed by boiling (i.e.,
>>total sterilization is achieved) is an irrelevant red herring.
>
>	Yes, it is agreed that holohuggers are unaware that all canning

    No, not all - home canning of acid foods using only a boiling water
bath is permitted even though pressure cooking is preferable.  The acid
will serve as protection against the one thing that is the cause of
concern here.


>including those cans they buy in the grocery are are cooked under
>pressure so that the temperature rises to around 240F for
>sterilization.

    It is also agreed that confessed liar Matt Giwer dishonestly cut out
the rest of my post where I pointed out that this was to kill the spores
of the anaerobic Clostridium organism responsible for botulism.  I showed
why this was not a concern for drinking water which will not be stored in
an airless environment and will be used in the short term.


>	You ignorant fools have not the least idea what you do not know.  

    I know the dishonest fool Matt Giwer knows perfectly well that he
could not find any answer to my very detailed description of the reasons
behind the procedure used in canning, how it differs significantly from
the case we are talking about, and how sanitation works in real water
systems rather than Matt Giwer's specious and dishonest arguments.  That
is why he had to delete it from his dishonest response. 

    But what else can one expect from a liar like Matt Giwer? 

    Needless to say, he loses _again_.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html


-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Dec 26 09:02:41 PST 1996
Article: 88801 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!uunet!in1.uu.net!205.252.116.190!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: For Doc Tavish--Kramer III
Date: 26 Dec 1996 10:33:58 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 77
Message-ID: <59u5t6$ps1@access5.digex.net>
References: <59m3o5$hhs@itssrv1.ucsf.edu> <19961225110900.GAA28774@ladder01.news.aol.com> <59rs4i$78r@access2.digex.net> <32c2074c.131757550@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <32c2074c.131757550@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Doc Savage  wrote:
>On 25 Dec 1996 13:34:58 -0500, mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <19961225110900.GAA28774@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
>>Tutu101  wrote:
>>>
>>>There are different ways to filter water.  Try this:  From "The Book of
>>>Survival":
>>>
>>>"Treat all water as if polluted.  Crystal-clear water could be
>>>contaminated.  Tap water polluted.  Mountain stream running from a high
>>>village or over a dead sheep.  Risks of cholera, typhoid, dysentery, or
>>>schistosomiasis too great...You talk as if that German river was
>>>Evian.....
>>
>>    Not true.  What is true is that you talk as if the measures listed in
>>the book to treat the water from the river are Herculean.... 
>
>	Truly an asshole.  For quantities for large populations settling
>tanks replace the cloth for filtration.  Air and chlorine in stages
>are used to kill bacteria.  Different processes are used in different
>applications as any engineer knows.  Why don't you?

    But I do.  What I also know that when the preferred process is not
feasible, one falls back on other means if the need is great enough.
Apparently this is something of which you are completely ignorant. 


>	For moderate or emergency quantities, filters can replace settling
>tanks.  The problem is they are expensive and need regular
>replacement.

    So are you claiming that the situation was not an emergency, or are
you claiming that the inmates facing thirst would not work without getting
paid and that not enough money was available to buy the guards'
undershirts and the like to use as emergency filters?  Please be specific
in your response.


>	All of the above requires power, electricity in the modern sense.
>Power stations were a primary target of allied bombing and there was
>no outside power for the camp at the time.

    Imagine that.  The survival book quoted by Mr. Blackmore did not
mention electricity.  The only power needed was for boiling.  And if you
were familiar with the testimony you would have known that some fuel was
available. 

    Although I expect you to dishonestly cut the rest of my reply out of
your response, I am not saying that an infinite supply of material was
available.  Nor am I saying that such efforts could have saved everyone
who died.  Clearly not - but that is not the issue here. 

    The issue is this: resources were available to do something for the
short term until the British took over.  Kramer was responsible.  He could
have tried.  He should have tried.  He didn't.  He was derelict in his
duty. 

    The fact that he could not have kept up the efforts forever, or that
he might have only been able to do half of what was needed, or that he
would not have a 100% success rate does not excuse his failure to live up
to his responsibility even to make a start.  And that is true whether his
failure was due to malice against the prisoners or because he was
psychologically overwhelmed by the problems and quit trying.  If he failed
to do what a reasonable person could and should have done in his
situation, that is dereliction of duty without any inquiry into motives. 
Deaths caused by such dereliction are negligent homicide even after giving
every last benefit of the doubt.  Mr. Blackmore has been telling us that
Kramer did the best he could. He did not. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Dec 26 09:02:41 PST 1996
Article: 88811 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!node2.frontiernet.net!usenet.logical.net!dciteleport.com!worldnet.att.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz goes next
Date: 26 Dec 1996 10:54:23 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 109
Message-ID: <59u73f$r6o@access5.digex.net>
References: <32c1f0a5.125958678@news.gte.net> <59t2e5$9r7@access1.digex.net> <32c239e6.144710732@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <32c239e6.144710732@news.gte.net>,
Doc Savage  wrote:
>On 26 Dec 1996 00:28:37 -0500, mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <32c1f0a5.125958678@news.gte.net>,
>>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
>>Doc Savage  wrote:
>>>	At the moment it is only the desparte holohuggers who are so
>>>tenaciously holding on to Treblinka as a steaming camp when in fact
>>>the aerial photos indicate such a claim is quite impossible.  
>>>
>>>	Now we come to Auschwitz, Birkenau to be specific.  They have
>>>foolishly identified buildings where they claim thousands of people
>>>per day were gassed.  They would have done better never to have
>>>identified any of these buildings as there are photos of them also.  
>>>
>>>	There are both air and ground photos of these buildings and the
>>>surrounding buildings.  Anything that happened in and around any of
>>>these buildings would be clearly visible from the ground.  Any and all
>>>claims to "rumors" are therefore pure nonsense.  
>>>
>>>	The surrounding fences are wire.  There are barracks a stone's
>>>throw from them.
>>
>>    Which barracks would those be?
>
>	The ones in the pictures.

    a) which pictures, and

    b) what were those barracks used for?  Be specific in your response.


>>>They are on main streets.  It would be impossible to
>>>keep a secret of events there.  
>>
>>    That would certainly be true if it were in an ordinary city.  In a
>>prison camp where the SS controlled who was allowed on those main streets
>>and when....
>
>	Poor little sucker but the main street of KR II and III was also
>the rail line.  They are quite clear in the ground level pictures.
>Anyone arriving by rail could see them and obviously photos of them
>were not prohibited despite other claims.

    Which direction did the trains come from?  Be specific in your answer. 



>>>	But there is more.  There is no place near them to stage one to two
>>>or three or more thousand people per day.  They would be lined up
>>>around the block.  Everything would be open for everyone to see
>>>without quesiton.
>>
>>[snip]
>>
>>    Apparently Mr. Giwer has still not examined the ground-level photos in
>>"The Auschwitz Album."  There seem to be quite a lot of people sitting
>>around in the woods behind the Kremas.  In one picture there is also a
>>portion of a very intriguing depression in the ground.  Not enough of it
>>is shown, alas, to draw any firm conclusions about it.  But it is not
>>filled with water, either, contradicting "revisionist" claims about the
>>water table in Birkenau making pit burning impossible. 
>
>	Obviously you are the victim of deceptive captioning.  There are no
>woods behind them, only farmland.

    There are no captions telling me there are trees.  There are trees in
the final set of photos.  Perhaps it was a tree farm? 


>They are an integral part of the camp.

    You say it was completely clear farmland.  Uh-huh.  That's why it was
called Birkenau (birch grove).  That's why there are trees in the final
set of ground-level pictures, not captions saying "grove of trees"
underneath pictures of treeless fields.  Why, yes, I understand
completely.  Anything you say.  Far be it from me to use physical evidence
like the pictures in "The Auschwitz Album" to prove there were trees where
scientific megagenius Matt Giwer says there could not have been trees.
When a self-proclaimed scientist speaks, physical evidence cannot
possibly contradict him.  As every scientist knows, when the facts
contradict the theory, the facts must be changed to fit the theory.


>	As to the other, I know of no such claim of impossibility rather
>that, if they existed, they were also clearly visible from the main
>street and stone's throw barracks.

    Once again, what were those stone's throw barracks used for?  Please
be specific in your response.


>	You really need to look at the pictures some day.  

    I have.  You have not - not the pictures in "The Auschwitz Album."
Otherwise you would never have come up with the stupid comment about steps
down from the platform which is at ground level.

    You would also know what those "stone's throw" barracks were used for.
That is also in the pictures.

    You would also see the trees.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Dec 27 02:14:51 PST 1996
Article: 88824 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!node2.frontiernet.net!usenet.logical.net!dciteleport.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: For Doc Tavish--Kramer II
Date: 26 Dec 1996 11:38:51 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <59u9mr$17o@access5.digex.net>
References: <32d18603.15946562@news.inetport.com> <59msom$33r@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <59msom$33r@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>   mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis) writes:
>  rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>>  >It
>>  >is her word against Kramer.  The evidence which Kramer presented to the 
>>  >court was compelling.  One can see that he did indeed make an effort to 
>>  >address the problems in his camp.  This evidence is more important
>>  >than their self-serving gossip.
>>  
>>  So you unsubstantially say.
>
>This is a fact, like it or not.--rb

    This is an example of at least one of two things I have criticized Mr. 
Blackmore for.  One is poor reading and writing.  There are several claims
made above;  does "This is a fact" refer only the first one - "It is her
word against Kramer" - or to the rest of the multiple claims as well,
particularly the comment about Kramer's evidence being compelling? 

    If it is the latter, then it is also an example of Mr. Blackmore
presenting his opinion as fact.

    Mr. Curtis has been unhappy with me for not being more detailed and
explicit in a previous post.  There were multiple charges against Kramer,
and I only commented on the one about the food and water supply at Belsen,
not on any of the other charges against him.  (I also must take some blame
in this case for writing poorly, as there were other charges even
regarding Belsen, namely the direct murders, which I was not rendering an
opinion on.)

    Kramer did something, which gives him benefit of the doubt as to
premeditation for those who died of starvation and dehydration.  However,
as both Mr. Curtis and I have explained elsewhere, his efforts were
woefully short of what a reasonable and prudent person in his situation
could have done.  That constitutes dereliction of duty so egregious as to
make Kramer still guilty of a less serious degree of murder for the
starvation and disease victims.  Had he done what a reasonable and prudent
person would have done to live up to his responsibilities in the
situation, even if his efforts had failed he would likely have escaped the
noose _if_ this had been the only charge against him.  As Mike Curtis has
pointed out, not everyone was hanged.

    Due to the Auschwitz charge addressed by the same tribunal, Kramer
would probably have hanged even if he had played Florence Nightingale at
Belsen. 

    I suspect we're about to be treated to the Bacque gambit - it usually
crops up in these discussions.  Let me just point out in advance that the
ad hominem tu quoque ("you did it too") is a logical fallacy and does not
change the facts in this case. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Dec 27 02:14:52 PST 1996
Article: 88842 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!wesley.videotron.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!tezcat!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'rblackmore' Lies Yet Again (Re: For Doc Tavish--Kramer IV)
Date: 24 Dec 1996 14:20:09 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <59pad9$j2b@access5.digex.net>
References:  <59kr7o$7s9@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <59kr7o$7s9@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>>   dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
>>  rblackmore@juno.com writes:
>>  # yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>  
>>  ## He [Kramer] was in command of the camp.  He made no effort
>>  ## to stop what the men under his command were doing.  They were
>>  ## killing inmates even as the liberators entered the camp.
>>  
>>  # To bad the "liberators" (who were there by negotiation of the
>>  # camp's early surrender at Kramer's instigation) did not report
>>  # any such thing.
>>  
>>  Of course they did. You have the book "The Belsen Trial", right?
>>  Look at page 34, the testimony of Brigadier Glyn Hughes.
>>  
>>  You will *not* get away with these lies, nazi-boy. Didn't you
>>  learn this already? I have the book, and I can check what you
>>  write. So be careful.
>>  
>>  
>>  -Danny Keren.
>>  
>>  
>>>>>
>Without getting too deeply into a discussion on this, I am not sure that
>I wrote the above comment.  These are copies of posts which may or
>may not have been written by different people, myself included.

    Are you claiming that someone has hacked into your account?

    Or are you claiming that you posted text that someone else fed you
without disclosing that you were not the author?

    If the latter, are you also admitting that you posted text without
verifying its accuracy for yourself?  Especially text which from the
writing style and the .sig at the bottom, appears to have been written by
the absolutely proven and self-confessed liar Matt Giwer?

    Matt Giwer lies so often that he makes the Soviets you call completely
untrustworthy look like the object of Diogenes's quest.  If you say it is
illegitimate to use any Soviet evidence, you certainly should never use a
Giwer post.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Dec 27 02:14:53 PST 1996
Article: 88845 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!node2.frontiernet.net!usenet.logical.net!dciteleport.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Blackmore vs. Blackmore, part 3
Date: 24 Dec 1996 16:25:09 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <59phnl$ms8@access5.digex.net>
References: <32b712ff.23943505@news.zilker.net> <59gfjq$30v@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <59gfjq$30v@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>This is mainly addressed to whomever is disputing it with me--rblackmore.

    I think you may be talking to yourself...

[big snip]

>You have lost miserably and everyone sees it.

    Do you have bizarre complexes, Mr. Blackmore?

From: rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No SS Man Was Ever Punished?
Date: 22 Dec 1996 10:13:24 GMT
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Message-ID: <59j1k4$hr6@juliana.sprynet.com>

>   karlpov@explorer2.clark.net (Charles Power) writes:

[snip]

>  Oh, we're back to this bullshit. I'm afraid that at this point no one
>  takes your months-long promises in this regard seriously. Still lying.
>  
>>>>
I always have a suspicion of people who claim to speak for everyone.
They have bizarre complexes.--rb



    Posted/emailed.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Dec 27 11:37:13 PST 1996
Article: 88850 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: How to become a high-volume poster
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 26 Dec 1996 13:16:23 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <59ufdn$4jq@access5.digex.net>
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In article <32c08aa8.34320984@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Doc Savage  wrote:
>On Tue, 24 Dec 1996 23:25:18 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>wrote:
>

[snip of material dealt with in another post]

>>BTW, I am not just needling you with the "get a job"
>>line. I really believe that it is not a healthy
>>situation for you to sit at home all day and do
>>nothing, at a relatively young age. It can drive
>>a guy up the wall.
>
>	Where did you EVER get the "do nothing" opinion?  And why is it you
>can only view being productive in terms of other people paying you?  I
>asked you that question the first time around.  You never did answer.
>
>
>	And before you excuse your "opinion" with the obvious, I also told
>you the first time around that when I was putting 12 and 14 hour days
>that people kept asking how I could post so many messages.

    It's really very easy if you are willing to write so quickly and
carelessly that you come across as a drunken illiterate.  Willingness to
post huge chunks of website text without even taking a minute to put in
the proper attribution to the true authors can get those stats up as well. 
And of course it certainly helps if you don't really care whether anything
you post is accurate - or even marginally truthful.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Dec 27 11:37:14 PST 1996
Article: 88878 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: A Nazi replies to a War Criminal
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 26 Dec 1996 12:51:14 -0500
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In article <32c241bf.146012400@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Doc Savage  wrote:
>On 15 Dec 1996 13:48:07 -0500, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article ,
>>  wrote:
>>>You anti-aryanites better get your stats together.
>>>One person says there were only 600,000 jews in Germany, then another 
>>>says the Germans killed over 12 million jews!
>>
>>    You need to learn geography and reading comprehension.
>>
>>    No person said the Germans killed over 12 million Jews; the 12 million
>>figure refers to people - half of them Jewish, half non-Jewish - killed
>>through deliberate Nazi violation of human rights and the norms of conduct
>>agreed to in such treaties as the Geneva Convention.
>
>	Hague convention.

    Included in "such as."  Remedy your ignorance by looking up the Geneva
Convention of 1864 and the amendments of 1906 and 1929 regarding the
treatment of sick and wounded prisoners of war.

    With your usual illiteracy you will not notice the subtle precision of
my writing, so I had better point out that with regard to the Russians, I
did not say violation of the treaties themselves but violation of the
norms established in those treaties.  Nazihuggers stand on the letter of
the law allowing them to murder soldiers of nonsignatories.  However,
there was no reason to do so, and even one German protested that such
behavior hurt the German cause by discouraging the Russians from
surrendering and encouraging them to fight to the bitter end out of fear.
Stupid Nazis indeed.  Who knows, they might have won if they had treated
the enemy better from the start. 


>"human rights" were not a part of them.

    They seem implicit to me.  I made no claim they were there explicitly. 
If you want to say that only humanitarianism was a part of them (for that
word _is_ used explicitly), be my guest. 


>Learn what you are talking about some day, fool.

    If I had been wrong about the existence of the earlier Geneva
Conventions, I would merely have been ignorant.  That you "correct" me due
to your own ignorance and then proceed to call me a fool certainly
demonstrates who is the ignorant fool around here. 

    You lose _again_, ignorant fool.
  

>>    And the Nazis operated over a much larger area than Germany.  The
>>majority of the Jewish victims came from Poland.  
>
>	It is rather strange that Poland was the country that Jews with
>Polish citizenship had to be forceable sent back to by the Germans in
>1938.  Poland!  What a country!

    Thank you for admitting that you have no substantive answer to the
rebuttal I make, which was based on the original poster's specious
comparison of the Jewish population of Germany alone to the six million
figure based on all of Europe.



>The next largest group
>>lived in the occupied parts of the Soviet Union, which provided the
>>largest group of non-Jewish victims (mostly POWs killed through both
>>murder and wilful neglect).  
>
>	We are all still awaiting a significant fraction of those 9000 mass
>graves.  Is hell freezing yet?

    Taken a look even at the Serniki report yet?  Need that URL again,
ignorant fool?

    Not to mention proven liar.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Fri Dec 27 11:37:15 PST 1996
Article: 88894 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nol.net!df.lth.se!news.lth.se!newsfeed.sunet.se!news99.sunet.se!newsfeed.luth.se!news.luth.se!eru.mt.luth.se!news-stkh.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Correcting Giwer's and Blackmore's scientific ignorance
Date: 26 Dec 1996 02:43:08 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 203
Message-ID: <59taac$dpd@access1.digex.net>
References: <59np43$q1f@news.enter.net> <19961225112900.GAA28978@ladder01.news.aol.com> <59rr1p$6i6@access2.digex.net> <32c2016f.130256230@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <32c2016f.130256230@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Doc Savage  wrote:
>On 25 Dec 1996 13:16:25 -0500, mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <19961225112900.GAA28978@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
>>Tutu101  wrote:
>>>
>>>	I will wager that you never read a book on emergency health 
>>>measures.  *All* bacteria can be killed by boiling water.
>>>
>>>	Now you are giwering us with fake "science."
>>>
>>>	--YFE
>>>
>>>Yale. you are going to bite the big one with that remark...all bacteria 
>>>can NOT be killed by boiling.
>>
>>    So please tell us, of the few that cannot, how common are they, and
>>which diseases do they cause? 
>>
>>    So please tell us, what reason did Kramer have to think that the river
>>was polluted with such bacteria? 
>
>	Perhaps Kramer read the same material that has been known to
>campers from around the time of Pasteur?  Holohuggers being ignorant
>of such matters of course.  

    You are correct - I was not aware of Pasteur listing any bacteria
which are immune to boiling.  Perhaps you would care to list such material?
You can't?  Why am I not surprised?

    There is an ambiguity here which I should point out - the issue is (or
should be) whether there are strains of dangerous bacteria which are
completely immune to boiling.  As I shall explain below, the issue of
whether each and every cell is guaranteed to be killed by boiling (i.e.,
total sterilization is achieved) is an irrelevant red herring.


[snip]

>>>Water Purifying
>>>
>>>Treat all water as if polluted.  Crystal-clear water could be
>>>contaminated.  Tap water polluted.  Mountain stream running from a high
>>>village or over a dead sheep.
>>>Risks of cholera, thyphoid, dysentery, or schistosomiasis too
>>>great....Various methods to purify water....So...to purify:
>>
>>    Would you please explain, in your own words, what you think "Various
>>methods to purify water" means?
>>
>>
>>>Strain all water through a cloth or folded hankerchief to suspend grit,
>>>gravel, dust, sand,...
>>
>>    Please tell us how this kills bacteria. 
>
>	Why would only a holohugger be dumd enough to read the purpose for
>doing it and then ask what his has to do with killing bacteria?

    Why would only a "revisionist" have so little literacy that he cannot
understand the irony and the purpose behind the question?  Blackmore
focused on bacteria.  He did not establish that there was significant
particulate matter in the river needing filtering in the first place.


>But
>perhaps you know better than you prentend and realiaze that bacteria
>might survive the chemical process if in the crevice of suspended
>particulates?  
>	
>>    Please also produce evidence to demonstrate why Kramer and his staff,
>>using any healthy prisoners if need be (since you have claimed that such
>>were available), could not have implemented this measure.
>
>	As everyone but holohuggers knows clean handkerchiefs were in short
>supply.

    As everyone also knows, you merely assert this.  Is it really your
claim that Kramer could not possibly have found a bit of clean cloth
somewhere, or found someplace to wash a dirty one, if he had only exerted
himself a little more?  He himself was wearing filthy rags?  Note that
cloth is mentioned in addition to handkerchiefs.  But you are illiterate,
so perhaps you did not notice this.  And you are dishonest, so perhaps you
noticed this but did not mention it.


>>>Boil hard for at least a minute  (longer preferably)
>>
>>    Please tell us why, if this is so totally useless due to the existence
>>of bacteria which can survive boiling, the book bothers to list it. 
>
>	In other words, based upon the biological ignorance of the
>questioner, an authoritative source is questioned.

    It is good to see that you agree with me that Blackmore is wrong, that
boiling is an effective way of treating water.  Of course you are too
illiterate and/or too dishonest to see that I am questioning Blackmore's
prior claims about the uselessness of boiling water, not the source
Blackmore strangely believes supports him when in fact it contradicts him.

    As you are too illiterate to understand, I agree with the
authoritative source.  Blackmore raised the issue of bacteria which cannot
be killed by boiling in order to excuse Kramer's failure to even try this
method.  It is Blackmore who said the source was wrong without realizing
that he once again contradicted his own argument.  That is his problem,
not mine.  Take it up with him. 

    You lose _again_.


>	Perhaps your attention is better directed towards your mother's
>cook book under the subject of canning.  Under canning you will find
>mention of a pressure cooker to terminate all biological activity.

    I am quite aware of this.  You are clearly ignorant of the fact that
acid foods can be canned without a pressure cooker.  Do you know the
reason?  And do you know why your whole argument is specious, as is that
of Mr. Blackmore?


>This REQUIREMENT has been known since the Naploeanic Wars and before
>Pasteur was born.  But then, holohuggers were born yesterday.

    In order to make this argument, you really _must_ think I was born
yesterday.  Unfortunately for you, you have really put your foot in it
this time, although this is hardly anything new for you.  Mr. Blackmore's
was already there some time ago; you are just an unexpected bonus.

    Your attention is directed towards the fact that the quote nowhere
mentions campers using a pressure cooker to boil the water.  But you know
that.  So why the difference?  It is quite clear that either you are
ignorant and do not understand the reason, or you are deliberately
deceiving people about science. 

    You and Blackmore are raising a very fat red herring with the comment
about "all biological activity."  Canning is for long-term storage. 
Complete sterilization is needed because of the organism known as
Clostridium botulinum, the cause of the deadly food poisoning known as
botulism.  This organism is anaerobic - it needs the airless environment
of the can to thrive.  A small number of surviving Clostridium spores will
eventually reproduce to the point where they become dangerous - but only
in non-acidic canned goods, not in food exposed to air.  The pressure
cooker is required specifically to kill _all_ the Clostridium spores.

    The water, on the other hand, would be for immediate consumption, and
furthermore is not canned, which means that the anaerobic Clostridium is
not a problem.  This is why boiling is acceptable treatment and a pressure
cooker is not mentioned in the survival guide.  Now that I have remedied
your gross scientific ignorance, perhaps you would care to rethink your
position?

    If you and Blackmore were scientifically literate, you would know that
ordinary tap water contains quite a few bacteria.  Water treatment does
not sterilize it - if for no other reason, it would quickly become
recontaminated once it left the treatment facility.  The goal of treatment
is merely to reduce the bacteria count to a level where it does not pose a
health risk.  Your local water utility takes E. Coli counts as a proxy for
general bacterial levels - and those counts are always greater than zero. 
A couple years ago in the DC area, the E. Coli counts went over acceptable
levels.  Before I learned of it, I drank some tap water.  Not a damn thing
happened to me.  In fact, I don't remember hearing of anyone suffering any
ill effects. 

    So what did the Corps of Engineers tell us to do during this crisis? 
Either use bottled water, or - surprise! - boil the tap water.  And
not one word was said about pressure cookers or any of the other measures
listed in Mr. Blackmore's survival guide.

    Now that we have determined the speciousness of the objection you and
Blackmore have raised to excuse Kramer's dereliction of duty, could you
please tell us whether your problem in this case is scientific illiteracy
or merely more of your deliberate dishonesty?

    You lose _again_.


>>    Please also produce evidence to demonstrate why Kramer and his staff,
>>using any healthy prisoners if need be (since you have claimed that such
>>were available), could not have implemented this measure.
>
>	Boiling?  What fuel?

    Gee, even if we assume there was not a stick of wood or scrap of paper
to be hand, how about just a little of the fuel in the trucks that were
bringing in those huge loads of prisoners Mr. Blackmore pleads that Belsen
was not equipped to handle?  How about whatever fuel it was that was used
to make the soup which Kramer said the inmates were fed?

    If you cannot pay attention to everything that has been posted, do not
try to participate in the discussion.  That is a Giwer Rule. 

    You lose _again_, Matt.

[remainder of Mr. Giwer's argument based on his scientific ignorance
deleted]

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Dec 27 11:37:16 PST 1996
Article: 88901 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nol.net!df.lth.se!news.lth.se!newsfeed.sunet.se!news99.sunet.se!liuida!news.ifm.liu.se!news.lejonet.se!linkoping.trab.se!malmo.trab.se!newsfeed.luth.se!news.luth.se!eru.mt.luth.se!pumpkin.pangea.ca!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No SS Man Was Ever Punished?
Date: 18 Dec 1996 20:22:00 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <59a5bo$83o@access5.digex.net>
References: <32a8740c.107517425@news.zilker.net> <19961218214000.QAA03583@ladder01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <19961218214000.QAA03583@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
Tutu101  wrote:
>To M. Stein:  You are, of course, correct when you write that these events
>occurred in 1937.  However, Koch was charged and executed in the forties,
>as well as another commandaer, I believe.  Hoess was under investigation
>by SS authorities as well, and a deposition was taken by one Eleanor
>Hodyss, a mistress of the ex-commandant.  This deposition was to be used
>as evidence against him by the SS judicial authorities.  The investigation
>had the full backing of Himmler.  Grabner was also arrested by the SS and
>charged with crimes, as was Goeth.

    Goeth was, as far as any unambiguous evidence has so far shown, only
charged with corruption. 

    Unfortunately, you are trying to have it both ways.  For evidence of
the charge against Grabner, e.g., it would appear you must rely on the
Nuremberg defense witness Konrad Morgen.  But if you believe Morgen's
testimony that he was proceeding against Grabner, you are stuck with
dealing with his entire explanation about why.  You seem to be arbitrarily
picking and choosing which of Morgen's words you will accept and which you
will reject based on no other reason than your preconceived notion about
what is true.

    There is also the point that some revisionists (e.g., Butz) tell us
about how the stories of prisoner mistreatment could not be true due to
the scrupulous SS orders concerning proper treatment, yet we have a
simultaneous claim that the SS's lack of official murderous intent is
shown by the Morgen Commission's many arrests on charges of prisoner
mistreatment.  Does anyone else see a basic contradiction here?


>However, due to the late period in
>time when their crimes came to light, they were later re-arrested and
>executed by the Poles.  I am confident that I shall uncover many more such
>cases as I continue to do research.

    Be sure to forward all of them to Prof. Butz.  Do you need his email
address?

    Posted/emailed.  By the way, which address do you prefer for email -
tutu101 or rblackmore? 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Dec 27 11:37:17 PST 1996
Article: 88902 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nol.net!df.lth.se!news.lth.se!newsfeed.sunet.se!news99.sunet.se!liuida!news.ifm.liu.se!news.lejonet.se!linkoping.trab.se!malmo.trab.se!newsfeed.luth.se!news.luth.se!eru.mt.luth.se!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!mr.net!news.idt.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Nazi asks about the Talmud (Sara?)
Date: 18 Dec 1996 20:35:57 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <59a65t$8ja@access5.digex.net>
References: <597rrp$79s@access5.digex.net> <598j7l$bto@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <598j7l$bto@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>>   mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) writes:
>>  
>>      Interestingly enough, the prohibition on Moabites was held to apply
>>  only to the men - which is how Ruth the Moabitess was permitted to become
>>  a Jew.
>>  
>Why were the men precluded?  has this anything to do with the line of 
>descent?

    Perhaps.  But I think that the specific legal reasoning was that the
word used for "Moabite" was the masculine plural only.  In other similar
situations where prohibitions were placed on other nations, the fate of
the women was explicitly spelled out.  Therefore the prohibition was only
taken to apply to men.  At least that's my understanding without
researching it.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Dec 27 11:37:18 PST 1996
Article: 88905 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!node2.frontiernet.net!usenet.logical.net!dciteleport.com!worldnet.att.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz goes next
Date: 26 Dec 1996 16:45:21 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 168
Message-ID: <59urlh$bfa@access5.digex.net>
References: <32c1f0a5.125958678@news.gte.net> <32c239e6.144710732@news.gte.net> <59u73f$r6o@access5.digex.net> <32c2d6bc.36568790@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <32c2d6bc.36568790@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Doc Savage  wrote:
>On 26 Dec 1996 10:54:23 -0500, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>>>>	There are both air and ground photos of these buildings and the
>>>>>surrounding buildings.  Anything that happened in and around any of
>>>>>these buildings would be clearly visible from the ground.  Any and all
>>>>>claims to "rumors" are therefore pure nonsense.  
>>>>>
>>>>>	The surrounding fences are wire.  There are barracks a stone's
>>>>>throw from them.
>>>>
>>>>    Which barracks would those be?
>>>
>>>	The ones in the pictures.
>>
>>    a) which pictures, and
>
>	The ones taken by the Germans and the Americans of course.  All
>this time and you have not looked at them?

    The problem is that I have looked at many of them.  For example, try

http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/images/Krema401.jpg

    Damn if those don't look like trees to a non-scientist like myself. 
Now, if you are looking at a different picture I need to know that.


>>    b) what were those barracks used for?  Be specific in your response.
>
>	Silly holohuggers, barracks are for people.

    It is not clear to me what tells you those buildings are barracks.  Is
there a big sign on them saying "Barracks?"  If so, who put that caption
on?  You?  Where did you get that caption from?  As I said, there are many
photos.  You have to be specific as to which picture or set of pictures is
the basis of your claim, or else there is no way for us to discuss it.


>But then you appear to
>be claiming you have not even seen the pictures.

    I have seen many pictures.  You have not answered the question.


>>>>>They are on main streets.  It would be impossible to
>>>>>keep a secret of events there.  
>>>>
>>>>    That would certainly be true if it were in an ordinary city.  In a
>>>>prison camp where the SS controlled who was allowed on those main streets
>>>>and when....
>>>
>>>	Poor little sucker but the main street of KR II and III was also
>>>the rail line.  They are quite clear in the ground level pictures.
>>>Anyone arriving by rail could see them and obviously photos of them
>>>were not prohibited despite other claims.
>>
>>    Which direction did the trains come from?  Be specific in your answer. 
>
>	Not relevant.  People are in the picture and the Kremas are in the
>background of the picture.  They are standing around.  They could see
>all of this massive activity simply by looking.

    Oh, I see - we have another of those time-travel paradoxes.  The
people who are standing around after getting off the train are the same
ones who will participate in that massive activity.  But when they move
>from  the train platform to the area where the massive activity takes
place, they will no longer be on the train platform to see themselves
participating in the massive activity from there.  What am I missing here? 




>>>	Obviously you are the victim of deceptive captioning.  There are no
>>>woods behind them, only farmland.
>>
>>    There are no captions telling me there are trees.  There are trees in
>>the final set of photos.  Perhaps it was a tree farm? 
>
>	The captioning that is deceptive is that it has anything to do with
>the Kremas.  You really do need to look at the pictures some time.

    Well, OK.  I'm looking at

    http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/images/Krema4.jpg

    Now, I'm not a scientific genius like yourself, so I can only say that
behind that building is the funniest-looking (and tallest) wheat I've ever
seen.


>>>They are an integral part of the camp.
>>
>>    You say it was completely clear farmland.  Uh-huh.  That's why it was
>>called Birkenau (birch grove).  
>
>	And there is a town up the road from here called Orange Grove which
>proves it is not a town at all.  Shall we move on to Palm Beach?  But
>that is what the pictures show.  I can't change that.

    Please be so good as to look at

http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/images/krema5-01.jpg

I can't change that one either.

    Now, on the side the picture was taken from is a clearing.  But behind
it is something else.  Again, you claim to know more than I do about
absolutely everything, so if you wish to claim that what is in the
farmland behind the building just is a bunch of broccoli, I guess I cannot
contradict a virtual Nobel laureate like yourself. 


>That's why there are trees in the final
>>set of ground-level pictures, not captions saying "grove of trees"
>>underneath pictures of treeless fields.  Why, yes, I understand
>>completely.  Anything you say.  Far be it from me to use physical evidence
>>like the pictures in "The Auschwitz Album" to prove there were trees where
>>scientific megagenius Matt Giwer says there could not have been trees.
>>When a self-proclaimed scientist speaks, physical evidence cannot
>>possibly contradict him.  As every scientist knows, when the facts
>>contradict the theory, the facts must be changed to fit the theory.
>
>	You have one of two possibiliities here, either the CIA is lying
>about the aerial photos or the authors of you book are lying about
>what they have pictures of.

    I suppose you must be thinking of

http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/images/birkenau-011445.jpg

    Krema II looks to have been the most clear.  However, if you look over
to the right even of III there seems to be something, and there's much
heavier _something_ over by IV and V.  Let's look over at a "revisionist" 
site - try

    http://www.air-photo.com/photos/bcmp.html

and check out the May 31 '44 photo.  Even this one shows something dark
below and to the right of III, as well as below and to the right of the
IV/V pair.  To me, it looks pretty fuzzy and difficult to be sure exactly
what that _is_, but by the same token I can't figure out what definitely
rules out that patch being trees.  So please let me know why that cannot
be trees.  Please be specific in your response. 

    Perhaps you could give me the reference for the aerial photos which
show no woods anywhere, not even over at IV and V?  Otherwise, I would say
that comparing the aerial photos with the last set in "The Auschwitz
Album," the people in the latter photos were sent over to some woods
behind IV and V.

    As for those "barracks" to the left of IV/V, could you please tell me
what distinguishes those buildings from storage buildings?  See for
example 

http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/images/auschwitz02.jpg

    Now use your X-ray vision and tell me what's in the building behind
the shoes, which I agree are not two stories tall but rather only up to
the roof line of a low one-story building.  The pile is two stories
_long_, but I will agree that this is not the same thing.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Fri Dec 27 11:37:18 PST 1996
Article: 88946 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nol.net!news-out.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!news-out.internetmci.com!dciteleport.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz goes next
Date: 26 Dec 1996 00:28:37 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <59t2e5$9r7@access1.digex.net>
References: <32c1f0a5.125958678@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <32c1f0a5.125958678@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Doc Savage  wrote:
>	At the moment it is only the desparte holohuggers who are so
>tenaciously holding on to Treblinka as a steaming camp when in fact
>the aerial photos indicate such a claim is quite impossible.  
>
>	Now we come to Auschwitz, Birkenau to be specific.  They have
>foolishly identified buildings where they claim thousands of people
>per day were gassed.  They would have done better never to have
>identified any of these buildings as there are photos of them also.  
>
>	There are both air and ground photos of these buildings and the
>surrounding buildings.  Anything that happened in and around any of
>these buildings would be clearly visible from the ground.  Any and all
>claims to "rumors" are therefore pure nonsense.  
>
>	The surrounding fences are wire.  There are barracks a stone's
>throw from them.

    Which barracks would those be?


>They are on main streets.  It would be impossible to
>keep a secret of events there.  

    That would certainly be true if it were in an ordinary city.  In a
prison camp where the SS controlled who was allowed on those main streets
and when....


>	But there is more.  There is no place near them to stage one to two
>or three or more thousand people per day.  They would be lined up
>around the block.  Everything would be open for everyone to see
>without quesiton.

[snip]

    Apparently Mr. Giwer has still not examined the ground-level photos in
"The Auschwitz Album."  There seem to be quite a lot of people sitting
around in the woods behind the Kremas.  In one picture there is also a
portion of a very intriguing depression in the ground.  Not enough of it
is shown, alas, to draw any firm conclusions about it.  But it is not
filled with water, either, contradicting "revisionist" claims about the
water table in Birkenau making pit burning impossible. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Fri Dec 27 11:37:19 PST 1996
Article: 88976 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!wesley.videotron.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: For Doc Tavish--Kramer II
Date: 21 Dec 1996 23:19:51 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <59ict7$3hq@access1.digex.net>
References: <59hlf9$9h0@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <59hlf9$9h0@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>Well, you have answered your own question.  He asked and was refused.
>He couldn't very well bake the loaves himself.  He did whatever he could, and
>that is all one can expect from any human being.

    I would agree that he did some things, but there are other things he
could and should have tried - most noticeably with regard to the water
situation. 

    As we discussed earlier, I think on what I have seen so far of what he
did at Belsen - I am not as up on it as other matters - and ignoring
anything which happened anywhere other than Belsen, at this time I would
find for negligent homicide but reasonable doubt as to wilful murder.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Dec 27 11:37:20 PST 1996
Article: 88988 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: For Doc Tavish--Kramer IV
Date: 24 Dec 1996 14:07:53 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <59p9m9$ij8@access5.digex.net>
References: <59hm9p$9h0@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <59hm9p$9h0@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>On 22 Sep 1996 17:33:48 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>
>>>   rblackmore@juno.com writes:
>>>  >   yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) writes:
>
>>>  >  	Sure.  First you give them water.
>>  
>>>  The water with the corpses floating in it?
>
>>	Gee, first you take the corpses out.
>
>	And here an example of the lack of education of folks in pre-law.  
>You heard it here folks all you have to do to make water polluted to
>rotting corpes is remove the corpses and it is as pure as French designer
>water.  

    Mr. Blackmore, have you seen your optometrist lately?  Yale said
"FIRST you take the corpses out."  That does not mean the same thing as
your own line, "ALL you have to do is take the corpses out.  A reasonably
educated person, as you claim to be, would possess sufficient reading
comprehension to recognize the difference, and would not embarrass himself
by posting the specious and irrelevant reply you wrote above.

    Therefore I can only assume you have not had your eyes checked lately.
Please see to it as soon as possible; it will improve the quality of
debate around here and save a lot of time.


> And this is some of the best grasp of reality that is current among
> holohuggers. 
>
>
>	Can anyone believe the complete ignorance of this holohugger?

    For your own good PLEASE see that optometrist as soon as possible.
Give yourself a new pair of glasses as a belated Christmas present.


[ remainder of this post which has been dealt with elsewhere deleted ]

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Dec 27 11:37:21 PST 1996
Article: 89017 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!wesley.videotron.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Blackmore vs. Blackmore
Date: 24 Dec 1996 16:37:19 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 94
Message-ID: <59pief$n47@access5.digex.net>
References: <59pd1f$k6m@access5.digex.net> <19961224204900.PAA16049@ladder01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <19961224204900.PAA16049@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
Tutu101  wrote:
>Ritual murder                        Holocaust
>----------------------               -------------------------
>No record of Jews calling for        Record of many Nazis calling for
>ritual murder of Christians          annihilation of Jews, including SS
>                                     court record stating that the Jews
>                                     must be exterminated (case of Max
>                                     Taubner)
>
>No physical evidence of victim       Physical evidence of victims being
>being rounded up                     rounded up
>
>No plans or orders for murder        Notes for "Vergasungskeller" in
>weapons                              Krema II, order for cyanide 
>                                     detectors; inventory sheet for
>                                     showers in a "morgue," gas-tight
>                                     door with protective grid on _inside_
>                                     of glass peephole
>
>
>    Perhaps you would care to think about this and see if you can't find
>some more.
>
>[ remainder deleted ]
>
>    Posted/emailed.
>-- 
>Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
>POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the
>official
>Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.
>
>Well, I would start by saying that Max Taubner is hardly a source to rely
>upon for a demonstration of proof in favor of the allegation that Jews
>were to be murdered by gas.

    His trial record is part of the convergence of evidence.  I never
claimed it said anything about gas.


>He is simply another witness among many
>witnesses who are not all that credible.

    Pop quiz: In whose trial did Max Taubner appear as a witness?

    Did he appear for the defense or the prosecution?

    Who conducted this trial?

    What were the charges?


>he is a witness as are the
>witnesses who testified to alleged acts of jewish ritual murder. You wrote
>of proof.....well, I for one would like to see what you have to offer of
>any real substance.  At least when I rely upon reason and logic, I say so.
> I have never used the expression "because I say so."

    No, you have simply presented things as statements of fact without
giving any evidence for them.  A sterling example is your claim that the
inmates chose to foul themselves, directly contradicting not only the
trial transcript as posted by Mike Curtis, but also your own previous
arguments about the overcrowding in the camps exculpating Kramer.


>Apparently
>according to some Jewish witnesses certain tools of murder were most
>definitely suggested and used on alleged victims of Jewish ritual murder. 
>It was every bit as orchestrated as you say the Holocaust was.  Also, your
>reference to a shower in or adjacent to a morgue is hardly
>incomprehensible.  If I worked in a morgue performing autopsies all day, I
>would appreciate a shower close by.

    Would you appreciate it even if it was not connected to any water
pipes?

    Or will you be the first to find the blueprint in the Bauleitung files
which shows the plumbing for those showers?  Pressac found blueprints for
the room referred to as the "Vergasungskeller" in the Bischoff letter
showing all other plumbing in the room, but nothing for showers.  Yet
there was an inventory sheet showing a small number of showerheads in the
room.  These items are physical evidence. 

    Now connect this physical evidence to the eyewitness testimony that
the room had dummy showers to allay suspicions.  It seems to me to connect
better than those showerheads connected to water, if the physical evidence
of the blueprints are any guide.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Dec 27 11:37:21 PST 1996
Article: 89031 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!hookup!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Another phony confession extracted by torture?
Date: 25 Dec 1996 08:34:51 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <59rahr$fbt@access5.digex.net>
References: <32c0386f.36428395@news.micron.net> <59q9ok$f7b@news.enter.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <59q9ok$f7b@news.enter.net>,
Yale F. Edeiken  wrote:
>>   kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt Stele) writes:
>>  On 23 Dec 1996 04:39:21 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote to 
>"blackmore":
>
>  
>>  >>  >  	No but posting anti-Semitic drivel you have written makes a fairly 
>>  >>  >  conclusive argument -- especially when you have refused to address the 
>>  >issue.
>
>	To which he responded:
>
>>  >>  Adress what issue, Yale?  What is it you would like me to address to 
>>  >>  assauge your suspicions?  
>
>>  >	Perhaps I missed it.  Gord McFee has frequently posted anti-Semitic 
>>  >comments and doggerel you sent to Harold Covington.  To date the only 
>>  >response I have seen from you has been flippant one-liners.
>
>>  Prove that rb "sent it" to Harold Covington as opposed to Harold
>>  taking it from usenet.   You wouldn't be just -assuming- this to try
>>  to smear rb as "anti-semitic" (tm) would you?   
>
>	That is for "blackmore" to explain.  So far he has not.  I am assuming 
>nothing.  I am reading the header on the communication and asking for an 
>explanation.  To date "blackmore" has supplied none.

    He has now done so, though I doubt that many will find it believable. 
He says he found it in an anti-semitic newspaper, leaving open the obvious
question of why he thought it worth sending in the first place to a man he
says he does not even know.  But he has openly admitted to sending it.

    Now the question is: will Mr. Stele accuse us of having tortured Mr.
Blackmore to extract this confession?
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Dec 27 11:37:22 PST 1996
Article: 89075 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!uunet!in1.uu.net!199.94.215.18!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.usenet.kooks,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 961214: The teeth of Mrs. Aristotle
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 23 Dec 1996 14:36:22 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 94
Message-ID: <59mmvm$m3m@access5.digex.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.usenet.kooks:32279 alt.revisionism:89075

In article <32be461f.124505143@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
John Yaya  wrote:
>On 23 Dec 1996 02:10:53 -0500, mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>>    You also appear unaware that tax records only record property owners
>>except for those few locations that have a local income tax.  But you are
>>so totally ignorant of so many things I suppose I should not find your
>>ignorance on this subject surprising. 
>
>	Nice try but property for tax purposes in town meant exactly what
>Jews owned in town.

    Did I say otherwise?  The question was whether property tax records
would give you a _complete_ list of Jews in town.  It would not.  It would
only give you the list of Jewish property owners.  It is not clear what
point you think you are making here.


>>>and that
>>>synagogues kept no membership (birth to establish lineage) records.
>>>Without such records no easter european jew could ever prove himself
>>>to be a jew.  It appears you have just shot down the entire fantasy
>>>that jews can trace their lineage to being jews.  No one from a small
>>>town in eastern europe is a provable jew.  Sorry to hear that.  
>>>
>>>	Now would you like to swear to what you have just stated or would
>>>you like to get real?
>>
>>    As a matter of fact, my synagogue keeps no systematic birth records.
>>Someone walking in claiming to be a Jew is believed unless there is some
>>cause to be suspicious.  I will happily swear to that.
>>
>>    Now perhaps you would like to get real.  And perhaps pigs will sprout
>>wings.
>
>	Fascinating.  That means you can not prove you are a jew.  

    Not through an unbroken chain of documentary evidence, no.  However,
the fact that so many of my relatives are Jews at least proves that I'm
not making up my claim out of whole cloth.  (Yes, there is one person who
comes into my synagogue from time to time who is a frequent guest of
Community Mental Health and has been determined not to be Jewish despite
his belief that he is.) 


>	Just where are these Akashic records of who is a jew kept?

    Probably in the same place as the Ashkenazic records of who is a
member of a society devoted to Oriental mysticism.  I.e., nowhere.

    Now if you are asking in your typically addled way where are the
Ashkenazic records of who is a Jew, I also don't know.  What makes you
think there are such systematic records?  Do you have us confused with the
Mormons?  (Come to think of it, that _may_ be the best place to find
them....) 

    I have occasionally spent time with the Lubavitchers.  They don't ask
me for my Debrett's listing, or even my driver's license.  Is this
information new and surprising to you?


>>>>>Then of course there were
>>>>>records of members of congregations, even jewish ones.  
>>>>
>>>>    Which congregations would those be?  The synagogues burned by the
>>>>Nazis, such as my great-grandfather's synagogue at Chodorow?  You must be
>>>>very strange to think that those records were engraved on metal plates
>>>>that would survive a fire.
>>>
>>>	That is correct.  Not one person from eastern europe can prove they
>>>are of jewish descent.
>>
>>    I did not say all records had been destroyed, but I pointed out that
>>many records would have been destroyed.  But of course you would not
>>remember that the initial claim was that not all six million names could
>>be found, not that no names could be found.
>
>	If they were not all destroyed then there are names, period. There
>are names.

    Whee.  Whoopee.  Give the man a big gold star.  There are names, very
good.

    And just who claimed otherwise?  The discussion was over the total
number of names, not whether there were any at all.  As Matt Giwer often
puts it, you must have learned to read in a public school.

    If you cannot pay attention and follow the whole discussion, do not
participate.  That is a Giwer Rule.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Fri Dec 27 11:37:23 PST 1996
Article: 89081 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!news-stkh.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: For Doc Tavish--Kramer III
Followup-To: alt.test
Date: 26 Dec 1996 02:50:02 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <59tana$dtk@access1.digex.net>
References: <59m3o5$hhs@itssrv1.ucsf.edu> <32c0ca5e.73792997@news.micron.net> <59rrvd$756@access2.digex.net> <32c206d8.131641109@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <32c206d8.131641109@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Doc Savage  wrote:
>On 25 Dec 1996 13:32:13 -0500, mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <32c0ca5e.73792997@news.micron.net>,
>>Kurt Stele  wrote:
>>>Perhaps the most ridiculous aspect of all of this is how the Germans
>>>did not at that point in time [the end of the war] simply kill all Jews
>>>all at once. It is a foregone conclusion the alleged goal was
>>>extermination.
>>
>>    My foregone conclusion is that no matter what the goal might have been
>>in 1941, at the end of the war the actual goal was saving one's own ass. 
>>
>>    One of the most ridiculous aspects of Holocaust deniers is their
>>one-dimensional view of people's motives.  
>
>	It took you folks rather longer than I expected to rework the
>demonic laughter and such of the evil villians of the holocaust into
>something you could manage.  

    It took you only as long as I expected to dishonestly pretend that
the Nazis had a hive mind, and that what one Nazi thought, all must think.

    I know you like science fiction, but we are dealing with reality here,
not the Borg.  Sorry about that.

    You are also repeating the error of saying that what happened once
must remain true always.  But that is merely more typical denier
dishonesty.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Dec 27 11:37:24 PST 1996
Article: 89085 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Could someone explain this?
Date: 27 Dec 1996 02:41:32 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <59vujc$p7k@access5.digex.net>
References: <01bbf3a0$10651ec0$3dd0d6cc@tstedham.dbtech.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <01bbf3a0$10651ec0$3dd0d6cc@tstedham.dbtech.net>,
Thomas Stedham  wrote:
>I found this on a site, and I don't understand. Is this _really_ in the
>Torah? And if so, is it still valid today?

    The three citations are not from the Torah.  They are references to
the Talmud.  I will have to check the first reference to see what it
really says, but I know from prior research how the other two references
are distorted.  The first one probably is as well, since Sanhedrin is
largely concerned with death penalty law, not marital law.


>< Sanhedrin 55b . A Jew may marry a three year old girl (specifically,
>three years "and a day" old).
>
>< Sanhedrin 54b . A Jew may have sex with a child as long as the child is
>less than nine years old.

    Due to a legal technicality, homosexual sex between an adult male and
a male child does not incur the death penalty as would homosexual sex
between two adult males.  Instead the crime is punished by whipping. 
There was a strong resistance to the death penalty - it was said that a
Sanhedrin (think of it as a Supreme Court) which executed someone once
every seven years was a bloodthirsty court, to which another rabbi replied
that even once in seventy years was excessive.  The least technicality in
the wording would be used to justify changing the penalty from death to
whipping.  This was in part for their own protection - carrying out an
unjust death penalty was thought to be a worse sin on the part of the
rabbis than failure to carry out an execution.

    The discussion does not mean that the act is permissible - in tractate
Makkoth, which discusses the laws relevant to the punihment of whipping,
there is no age-based exception to the penalty.  (The Talmud is organized
rather strangely - rather than grouping similar crimes together and
talking about how the punishments change depending on the circumstances,
it groups crimes together by the type of punishment.  Death penalty law is
generally collected in Sanhedrin; whipping in Makkoth; a kind of spiritual
excommunication known as _kareth_ is discussed in tractate Kerithoth.)


>< Kethuboth 11b . "When a grown-up man has intercourse with a little girl
>it is nothing."

    The subject of discussion is the marital property rights of virgins
vs. nonvirgins.  Virgins have greater entitlements.  The rabbis discussed
the hypothetical case of a girl raped at an age less than three years old
- for the purposes of her rights at marriage, is she considered a virgin
or a nonvirgin?  The answer is that she is considered a virgin.  The
quotation is out of context - _for the purposes of determining her
rights,_ if a girl less than three has sex with a man, it is nothing.  The
phrase "it is nothing" is a common Talmudic idiom meaning "it has no
bearing on the matter under discussion" (in this case, her property rights
at marriage).  It does NOT mean "it is perfectly acceptable."

    Hope this helps.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Dec 28 09:13:52 PST 1996
Article: 89478 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!nntp.portal.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!cliffs.rs.itd.umich.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Calling Giwer's bluff
Date: 26 Dec 1996 09:59:46 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <59u3t2$nui@access5.digex.net>
References: <32bd8875.76661019@news.gte.net> <32bed131.29619789@news.gte.net> <59mtpn$s51@access5.digex.net> <32bf008c.40638787@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <32bf008c.40638787@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
John Yaya  wrote:
>On 23 Dec 1996 16:32:39 -0500, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <32bed131.29619789@news.gte.net>,
>>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
>>John Yaya  wrote:
>>>	Of course you "capable of formulating" you simple refuse to do so.
>>
>>    I do not refuse to do so.  I have simply set a condition that you take
>>a test similar to one you demand of me.
>
>	Ah, yes, you have set a condition.  Do you really think that silly
>cop out is not transparent?  Juvenile even?  

    Do you really think you can fool people into missing the fact that you
are the one copping out here with a very transparent _unconditional_
refusal? 

    Recall that you made the original claim, yet refused to back it up.

    It is quite clear this is because you cannot, and are desperately
handwaving with demands that others prove you wrong.

    Have it your way.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Dec 28 11:56:22 PST 1996
Article: 89562 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!news.bconnex.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Criminal Giwer Puts His Foot in it Again
Date: 26 Dec 1996 11:07:34 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <32c0c8b8.73371236@news.micron.net>,
Kurt Stele  wrote:
>On 24 Dec 1996 22:59:30 GMT, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:
>[Giwer] sure does a good job of exposing the Holohoax.

    Absolutely!  Matt Giwer's hoaxes are unusually transparent.


>>Gord McFee
>>I'll write no line before its time
>
>Your sig. sounds like that of an adolescent, Gord.  
>
>Kurt Stele
>
>"[M]ost of the memoirs and reports [of "Holocaust survivors"] are full
>of preposterous verbosity, graphomanic exaggeration, dramatic effects,
>overestimated self-inflation, dilettante philosophizing, would-be
>lyricism, unchecked rumors, bias, partisan attacks and apologies."  
>
>Jewish historian Samuel Gringauz in _Jewish Social Studies _(New
>York), January 1950, Vol. 12, p. 65. 

    And your .sig sounds like something you don't really understand but
think sounds impressive.

    Can you tell us in your own words what Gringauz is saying?  Can you
tell us at the very least the most serious accusation he makes in the
above paragraph? 

    And can you tell us about Alec Grynspan's time machine?  Inquiring
minds want to know!
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Sat Dec 28 16:28:04 PST 1996
Article: 89612 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Beastly poor math skills
Date: 28 Dec 1996 18:26:54 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 270
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References:  <58qtuf$rjk@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> <32b9f61d.532827@news.gte.net> <59dcos$eks@rigel.infonex.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <59dcos$eks@rigel.infonex.com>,
anonymous  wrote:
>And now for a little exercise in probability and number theory -- 

    Since Matt Giwer as usual turned tail and ran when asked to back up
his claims of technical competence, it falls to me to serve as personal
trainer and give a real workout to those flabby math muscles. 


>what are 
>the odds that accurately observed and reported statistical figures on such
>diverse measures as numbers of people transported, numbers of deaths, 
>numbers of buildings, and so on turn out to be disproportionately multiples 
>of six?  Here's my first cut at a solution  (I'm ignoring a few
>subtleties -- for example, I don't count 36 as being a multiple of 
>six twice, which would make the probabilities even lower):

    Not to mention a few unsubtlelties that make the probabilities much
higher. 

    OK, class, it's time for another lesson in "lies, damned lies, and
statistics."  The text for this course is Daniel Huff's excellent "How to
Lie With Statistics."  If you have not read it, by all means do so.
Additional reading is any textbook on statistics and probability.


>One in every six integers is a multiple of six.  The probability that an
>observed measure, whether rounded up to an integer or with the decimal point
>removed, will be a multiple of six is 1/6.

    Not quite.  That is only if the observed measure would have a normal
tendency to be random.  As an example, if someone mentions such-and-such
every twenty-four hours, "24" cannot be counted as a number having any
significance for this analysis.  This is because the fact that a day
_does_ have 24 hours makes it a "natural" figure which has a probability
of 1 in this context, not a probability of 1 in 6. 

    Second, one must ask whether it is truly an observed measure or an
estimate.  For psychological reasons, estimates have a bias towards
multiples of 2, 3, and 5 and away from higher primes. 


>The probability that
>two such measures will both be a multiple of 6 is 1/6^2 = 1/36.
>(This is the same as the probability of throwing "snake eyes" with
>a pair of six-sided die).  In general, the probability that n measures 
>will all be multiples of 6 is 1/6^n.  The probability that half of all 
>measures will be multiples of 6 is 1/6^(n/2).  The probability
>that m out of n measures will be multiples of six is 1/6^(n/(n/m)).
>
>In particular, the probability that five out of eleven 
>observed statistics will be multiples of six is 
>	1/6^(11/(11/5)) = 1 in 7,776.
>
>This is the same as the probability throwing "snake eyes" 
>twice in a row, then another snake eye after that, without interruption.
>
>Given an account or series of accounts with such statistics,
>which is the more probable explanation:
>
>(a) The statistics were accurately observed and reported.
>
>(b) The Devil made the Nazis do it, in multiples of six.
>
>(c) The digit six and its multiples is a stylistic pattern used 
>throughout Judaic culture -- the six-sided Star of David, the "Number 
>of the Beast",

    Sorry to be a spoilsport here, but the "Number of the Beast" is a
Christian idea, not Jewish. 


>and so on.  The number six represents, not accurately reported
>figures, but the use of this stylistic pattern in yet another Judaic 
>religious masterpiece.

    Did anyone in the class spot option

(d) Anonymous here has made several really amazing errors in analysis of
the text, statistical reasoning, and even simple counting?


>And now for our sample of the precisely stated numerical
>statistics in the "Myshkin letter":

    They are not, of course, precisely stated - not all of them.  And as
mentioned above, that's somewhat important, though not the biggest error
that our anonymous friend makes.  It's not even the second largest error. 


>1 six 
>>Every day, twelve thousand souls are being taken off...

    An estimate, not a precisely observed statistic.


>4 not
>>Four deportations of forty-five such train-loads move daily out of 
>>Hungary. Within twenty-six days all that area will have been 
>>deported.

    I see four, forty-five, and twenty-six.  What is your fourth, math
whiz? 

    Three precise numbers.


>1 not
>>They are completely consumed in the 
>>ovens and leave no evidence behind. These are 95% of each 
>>transport.

    Estimate.


>2 six
>>The dead bodies are burned in specially made ovens. Each oven 
>>burns 12 bodies an hour. In February there were 36 ovens burning. 

    I'll give Anonymous the benefit of the doubt and call this two precise
numbers, though the first one is suspect. You see, if the writer had cast
this as "Each oven burns a body every five minutes," we would have lost a
six here - and it would look more suspiciously like an estimate. 


>1 not
>>Information supplied us by a few eyewitnesses reveals that in 
>>February there were four disposal buildings. We have learned that 
>>more have been built since then.

    Precise number.


>1 six
>>This is the schedule of Auschwitz, from yesterday to the end; 
>>twelve thousand Jews - men, women and children, old men, infants, 
>>healthy and sick ones - are to be suffocated daily

    No.  The 12,000 in this paragraph is the same as the 12,000 in the
first paragraph.  Counting the same six twice is not fair. 


>1 six (the Big One)
>>... reaching now to six million Jews, were murdered.

    Also an estimate.

    After correcting for the duplication and miscount, we see
1/6^(9/(9/4)) = 1 in 1,296. 

    If however we eliminate all the estimates, we only have 2 sixes out of
six observations.  That's only 1 in 36.  Except....

    Except of course it isn't.  None of those computations are correct. 
Let's take a closer look at Mr. Number Theory's formula.  Suppose there
had been 24 observations, not nine. 1/6^(24/(24/4)) also = 1 in 1,296! And
yet _that_ would give us exactly as many sixes as expected. Something is
_very_ wrong with the formula he gave us.

    If we throw two dice the odds of double sixes are one in 36.  But if
we throw three dice, how do we compute the odds of getting at least two
sixes?  Intuitively, it should be higher, since if we miss a six with one
die, we have one more shot.

    There are 216 possible combinations.  15 of them have exactly two
sixes.  (Dice 1 + 2, dice 1 + 3, dice 2 + 3; each multiplied by 5 for the
non-six die which can vary from 1 to 5.)  1 has all 3 sixes.  16 of 216 is
1 in 13.5, not 1 in 36. 

    The correct formula for the odds of precisely n sixes out of m tosses
of a k-sided die is

    ((k-1)^(m-n) * (m!/n!(m-n)!))/k^m

(m! is the symbol for m factorial, the product obtained by multiplying all
the integers from 1 to m) 

Number theory, my you-know-what.

    In passing I shall mention that the correct standard should be the
probability that _at least_ n of m measures would be multiples of 6, not
_exactly_ n of m measures.

    Then of course there is the fact that in this case observed measures
of one would usually not be counted in such an analysis, inflating the
ratio of sixes to total measurements.

    But let's pretend the last problem doesn't exist, nor the problem of
estimates being slightly nonrandom, and actually plug in numbers now that
we are using the correct formula: 

    ((6-1)^(9-4) * (9!/4!(9-4)!))/6^9

    (5^5 * 126)/6^9 ~= 1 in 26.

    Not nearly so impressive, is it?  And that's before we repeat for 5
through 9 sixes (because they have four sixes as well, their probabilities
add into the _cumulative_ probability of _at least_ four sixes).


>>And God who keeps alive the last remnant of Israel...
>
>Another theme common in Judaic religious literature, but I won't
>count it.

    Invalid reasoning is a very common theme in "revisionist" literature.
As Matt Giwer ought to say, revisionists are sneaky people, always relying
on the inability of others to check and think critically about their
"facts" and figures.

    We find that the chance of having exactly four sixes in nine rolls of
a six-sided die is 1 in 26, and the odds of having _at least_ four would
be even better - computation is left as an exercise for the reader.
(Although I've cautioned why that die isn't really a random six-sided
one.)  That sure doesn't seem so significant, does it?  And wait - it gets
much, much worse. 

    There is another Jewish tradition, something called gematria.  It is a
form of numerology where letters are mapped to numbers, and the words
formed by the letters (or the number represented by one or more words) are
analyzed for meaning. The rabbi at my congregation is a master at it.  It
is truly amazing what hidden meanings are encoded in _everything_. 

    Of course that's much easier to do if you're allowed to fit a pattern
on the data _after_ you get a look at it, rather than selecting the
predicted pattern first and then seeing if the data fit.  Here's a
concrete example of what I mean.  The odds of rolling three dice and
getting the same number on each die is 6/216, or 1 in 36.  But if you get
to see the throw of the dice before you fit your pattern on it, you can do
an after-the-fact analysis to announce some great significance for the
number that actually came up, then claim that the because the odds were 1
in 216 of getting that _particular_ number, people should be suspicious
that the dice were loaded, so to speak. 

    Of course there are many other improbable patterns - e.g., two groups
of three matching numbers in a set of 9.  So paradoxically there is an
_excellent_ chance that one will end up with some _specific_ pattern which
is low-probability.

    Suppose the repeated number had been four?  Four letters in the
ineffable Name, four matriarchs.  Five?  Books of moses.  Three? 
Patriarchs, number of pilgrimage festivals, number of categories of Jews
(Kohen, Levi, Yisrael). Seven?  Days of the week, number of days in the
festival of Pesach (Passover) as observed in Israel, number of fat (or
lean) years in Egypt.  See how easy it is to "discover" some Jewish
significance in a number when analysis is performed after the fact?  But
getting at least four identical results in nine throws of a six-sided die
will happen 28.8% of the time, if you don't specify in advance _which_
number it is that should come up the same. 

    That's why statisticians have a measure called a significance
coefficient - when an apparently interesting pattern emerges from a set of
observations, it is important to compute how likely a _similar_ (not
necessarily identical) pattern is to emerge from a set of truly random
numbers.  The smaller the number of observations, the less significant the
results are.

    On only nine observations, getting a _type_ of pattern which has a
28.8% shot of coming up is, in statistical terms, indistinguishable from
random noise.  And random noise, I'm afraid, is all that Mr. Anonymous's
post turns out to be. 

    "Revisionists are sneaky bastards, always relying on facts and
figures." - Matt Giwer.

    "Figures don't lie, but liars figure." - Unknown
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Sat Dec 28 19:05:55 PST 1996
Article: 89616 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Statement Of Restraint: Subject: Matt Giwer
Date: 28 Dec 1996 19:03:28 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <5a4cgg$3l5@access1.digex.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <32c4a960.30500676@news.gte.net>, 
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Doc Tor  wrote:
>On 28 Dec 1996 03:54:43 GMT, giwer@combase.com (Mathias Giwer, Senior)
[ Note: forgery originating from a Toronto Netcom POP, most likely by
marduk@netcom.ca ]
>wrote:
>
[ full headers snipped ]

>	Now that we have the full post, the management of netcom.ca,
>knowing full well that it is responsible for these posts continues to
>encourage them.

    Pardon me, Matt, but did you ever actually file a complaint with
Netcom when Marduk was posting articles under your exact user ID, back
when you were also using Netcom?  Have you even filed a complaint at all,
ever?  If not, you can hardly expect Netcom to know about the problem. 
    
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Sat Dec 28 19:05:56 PST 1996
Article: 89618 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!node2.frontiernet.net!usenet.logical.net!dciteleport.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Yoo hoo, Mike Stein:   Care to add up the Holocaust 6 Million Please?
Date: 28 Dec 1996 19:24:14 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <5a4dne$4kb@access1.digex.net>
References: <32c45b7f.307589000@news.micron.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <32c45b7f.307589000@news.micron.net>,
Kurt Stele  wrote:
>Mike Stein has repeatedly claimed that despite a 3 million person
>reduction in the Auschwitz number of Jews allegedly killed, this does
>not affect the total number of the sacred 6 million.
>
>Mr. Stein, please add up the figures.  Show the world how the 6
>million number is true.  I'm waiting...

    There was a considerable delay in your post reaching my server; there
were several replies which arrived here before your original post did.

    By the time I got your message, Annie Alpert already answered your
question.  If you need a copy of that post emailed to you, please let me
know.  I will merely add that the six million figure always was a
rounded-up number from 5.7 or 5.8 million, I forget which.  Hilberg's
lower numbers are computed on a slightly different meaning of "victim" -
the higher number was the net loss in population after known emigration
was accounted for, but not all of those dead were specifically murdered as
Jews.  Some died in their beds of natural causes; some were anonymous war
casualties, either civilian or military, who died side by side with
Gentiles. 

    Also, based on a _true_ bit of revisionism (a re-interpretation of
known documents based on additional evidence) the Auschwitz death toll
should be lowered by a couple hundred thousand Hungarian Jews who never
really existed.  The problem is that each separate registration session
was originally thought to reflect a separate transport, which artifically
inflated the number of transports and thus the total number of Hungarian
deportees. It is now recognized that they sometimes conducted several
separate registration sessions from the same trainload, which means that
there were fewer trains and a higher percentage of survivors from each
train.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Dec 28 19:05:57 PST 1996
Article: 89622 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!news.bconnex.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Undoubtedly it Will be for the Sake of the Children.
Date: 26 Dec 1996 10:39:24 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <59u67c$q2g@access5.digex.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <32c21c1e.137087417@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Doc Savage  wrote:
>On Tue, 24 Dec 1996 20:10:17 GMT, kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt Stele)
>wrote:
>
>>Says Rabbi Abraham Cooper, associate dean of the
>>Wiesenthal Center: 
>>
>>                     It may be time for the FCC to place a
>>                     cop on the information superhighway.
>>                     --Home Office Computing, November,
>>                     1994, p. 18. 
>
>	If you find his email address, remind him that freedom of speech
>and the prohibition against slavery are equal.

    I would remind him as well that the kids are going to have to learn to
think critically sooner or later.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Sat Dec 28 19:05:58 PST 1996
Article: 89623 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!node2.frontiernet.net!usenet.logical.net!dciteleport.com!worldnet.att.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Blackmore's obtuse Postings
Date: 28 Dec 1996 19:43:38 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <5a4erq$5sn@access1.digex.net>
References: <32ccb175.16046953@news.inetport.com> <19961227110800.GAA13124@ladder01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <19961227110800.GAA13124@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
Tutu101  wrote:
>I don't believe your witness who claims she saw Grese beat someone to
>death.  I happen to know that gratuitous beatings of inmates at Auschwitz
>were strictly prohibited.

    So was what happened to Rodney King.  I suppose you will claim that
the strict prohibition against police brutality proves that the videotape
was forged? 


>Your witness never names the alleged victim or
>the alleged person who was with her.

    Irrelevant.  If I see a murder on the street, it is not necessary for
me to know the victim's name in order to know that I have seen a murder. 
Nor is the name of the accompanying person relevant unless that person
also appears as a witness and contradicts the story. 


>All forms of corporal punishment had
>to be approved of in advance by authorities in Berlin.  The very idea of
>little Irma Grese beating people to death with her cellophane whip is a
>joke.  Grese was innocent.  She never deserved to hang on the basis of
>unproved witchcraft like hysterical denunciations.  And all this fuss and
>ado you raise about these issues is unconvincing and reminds me of a
>Shakespearian line:  "Thou doth protest too much."

    Pot.  Kettle.  Black.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Sat Dec 28 19:05:58 PST 1996
Article: 89624 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!dciteleport.com!worldnet.att.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Sue my son, Matt Giwer - forged post
Date: 28 Dec 1996 18:49:22 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <5a4bm2$35c@access1.digex.net>
References: <5a3mt9$en2@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <5a3mt9$en2@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca>, a Netcom customer - most
likely Marduk (marduk@netcom.ca), who has a history of such forgeries -
forging a post under the name Mathias Giwer, Senior 
wrote:

>I invite one and all to sue my son, who is an acknowledged criminal.

    I invite one and all to look at the article IDs and NNTP-Posting-Host
lines and compare them with the From: lines when reading suspicious posts
like this one.



-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Sat Dec 28 22:44:25 PST 1996
Article: 89637 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nol.net!news-out.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: For Doc Tavish--Kramer III
Date: 28 Dec 1996 21:05:47 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <5a4jlr$9qu@access1.digex.net>
References: <59rrvd$756@access2.digex.net> <19961228143500.JAA10900@ladder01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <19961228143500.JAA10900@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
Fafner13  wrote:
>"The Germans" did not have wiping out the Jews as their goal.  Certain
>Nazi leaders held that goal.  According to Kurt Becher, Himmler ordered
>the end of gassing in Auschwitz in late 1944, when it was apparent the end
>was inevitable.  It would appear that saving ass became the goal of higher
>priority. 
>
>According to Kurt becher?  Why should we believe him?

    Other than the fact that he was there, and you were not, no particular
reason.

    You believe what "revisionists" write, do you not?  Why do you believe
them, despite the fact that they tell so many proven lies (e.g., the
Lachout document)?

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Sat Dec 28 22:44:26 PST 1996
Article: 89642 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: A Nazi asks about the Talmud (Sara?)
Supersedes: <5a4kmn$aqh@access1.digex.net>
Date: 28 Dec 1996 21:25:46 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <5a4kra$at4@access1.digex.net>
References: <59ghqi$sfi@news.enter.net> <59hnln$9h0@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <59hnln$9h0@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>>   yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) writes:
>>  >   rblackmore@juno.com writes:
>>  >  >   yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) writes:
>>  
>>  >  >  	I suggest that you add to your extensive library:
>>    
>>  >  >  	"The Talmud: A Reference Guide" by Adin Steinsaltz.

[extensive quote which should have answered Mr. Blackmore's
question below deleted]

>>  >  Well, then, does this mean that they are generally considered as a 
>>  >  part of the Talmud?
>>  
>>  	No more than the published opinions of the Supreme Court are 
>>  considered part of the Constitution.
>>  

>Well, you gave an evasive answer to my question regarding the Talmud, but
>thanks anyway.-rb

    Mr. Blackmore, you asked me for evidence to support my claim that you
have a poor grasp of the English language.  Here is another item.  The
quote from Steinsaltz was very specific in its description of the
Tosaphot.  It should have been evident to any literate person that
commentary on a document is not part of the document.  Yet you ask if the
Tosaphot are part of the Talmud.

    Yale gave you an answer by analogy that any literate and intelligent
person should have recognized as being the equivalent of "No," simply
delivered with more literary style.  Yet you call it evasive.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Dec 29 02:58:41 PST 1996
Article: 32325 of alt.usenet.kooks
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!uunet!in1.uu.net!206.13.28.13!news.pbi.net!news1.rcsntx.swbell.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: Matt Giwer
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 27 Dec 1996 03:47:43 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 76
Message-ID: <5a02ff$ro7@access5.digex.net>
References: <3272FCD8.152C@er4.eng.ohio-state.edu> <32b971c6.8529522@news.gte.net> <59r8bg$eia@access5.digex.net> <32c225d8.139577387@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:89717 alt.usenet.kooks:32325

In article <32c225d8.139577387@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Doc Savage  wrote:
>On 25 Dec 1996 07:57:20 -0500, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <32b971c6.8529522@news.gte.net>, 
>>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
>>Up front  wrote:
[snip]

>>>	The Amazing Weissmandel will tell your fortune, predict the future,
>>>know the number before "historians" go over the records and find the
>>>number the hard way.   He will know the number even before it happens.
>>
>>    The Amazing Giwer with his amazing 163 IQ never considered the fact
>>that if someone were picking a round million out of a hat he'd have a
>>decent chance of getting it right.  The number of Jews in Europe was not a
>>deep dark secret known only to the top Nazis.  A reasonable estimate on
>>anyone's part at the time would have ranged from four to seven million.
>>
>>    So let's see, what chance would someone have of picking six million on
>>a SWAG?  Do you need a lesson in probability theory along with the author
>>of "Beastly numbers?"  Is that why you have not accepted my challenge? 
>
>	Except for a minor point or two.  The ONLY holohugger approved
>basis for any number in this highly to very highly to "bite the
>capsule before reading" secret operation was developed after the fact.

    Damn, we just hit another one of those time travel paradoxes.  Seems
the American Jewish Committee was publishing yearbooks for years with
population data which according to Matt Giwer was only computed after WWII
was over.


>It was arrived at by confiscating without search warrants (but then it
>was a legal tribunal) literrally tens of thousands of documents which
>permitted for the first time a realization of the scope of the
>operations.  

    It didn't take a search warrant to see that the Nazis were rounding up
Jews all over the place.  All that Weissmandel or anyone else would have
needed to do was assume the worst or very near.


>	There was no basis for any number whatsoever, not even good
>population numbers as WE HAVE DETERMINED from a discussion of taxation
>data.  (Remember that do you not?  In that argument the position was
>that there was no way to determine numbers?

    Yes, Matt, I do remember it.  I see below that you realize that you
remembered it wrongly at first.


>Now suddenly there is a
>way to determine numbers?  Got that?  Oh!  You said names,   If you
>can not total the names you have no numbers.)

    Go out to the nearest streetcorner.  Count the number of people you
see in the first car going by.  Did you have to stop the car to ask the
names of the people inside before you could count them?  You are a very
silly person if you think that.

    Be sure to tell the folks who put together the CIA Factbook, with
population estimates for every country, that in order to come up with
those estimates they needed the names of each and every person in the
country.  I am sure they will thank you for your expert advice on
demographics. 

    http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/95fact/index.html

    By the way, you lose _again_.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Sun Dec 29 03:00:21 PST 1996
Article: 89725 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 961225: A Cyber Stalingrad
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 29 Dec 1996 03:19:07 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <5a59hr$ol5@access4.digex.net>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article ,
E. Zundel Repost  wrote:
>The Zundelsite has cut its cyber teeth on 1996, and generations coming
>after us will talk about this milepost year, thanks to the Internet and, in
>no little measure, thanks to the Nizkorites - who traipsed into this thing
>with all the hokum, indolence and balderdash of fatuous Jesters of the
>Court, while standing with both feet in mid-air on both sides of the issue,
>loudly professing tolerance from both sides of their loudmouths while
>trying to shriek us straight into cyber night with their computer mice!

    I am so very glad to see that the Zundelsite does not stoop to empty
ad hominem attacks and hysterical rhetoric. 

    And a belated Merry Christmas to you. 

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Sun Dec 29 07:33:34 PST 1996
Article: 89743 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.fdt.net!newsfeed.telalink.net!telalink!news.wildstar.net!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: Beastly poor math skills
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 29 Dec 1996 02:39:33 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <5a577l$nqh@access4.digex.net>
References:  <59dcos$eks@rigel.infonex.com> <5a4abu$20u@access1.digex.net> <32c5ff29.45398478@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:89743 alt.usenet.kooks:32326

In article <32c5ff29.45398478@news.gte.net>, 
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
The First One  wrote:
>On 28 Dec 1996 18:26:54 -0500, mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <59dcos$eks@rigel.infonex.com>,
>>anonymous  wrote:
>>>And now for a little exercise in probability and number theory -- 
>>
>>    Since Matt Giwer as usual turned tail and ran when asked to back up
>>his claims of technical competence, it falls to me to serve as personal
>>trainer and give a real workout to those flabby math muscles. 
>
>	Just who does the Stein think it is posting to?

    To anyone reading the newsgroup, of course.

    If the Giwer thinks it is posting to anyone else, it is quite deluded. 

    On second thought, the conditional part of the preceding sentence is
superfluous. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Dec 29 12:52:30 PST 1996
Article: 89822 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nol.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.ukrainian,soc.culture.baltics,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: From Every Hill and Dale they Come...(was Re: Another lying jew
Date: 29 Dec 1996 12:17:40 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <5a693k$j9t@access5.digex.net>
References:  <32BE363C.3C88@columbia.edu> <32be48f2.125228395@news.gte.net> <59mc71$oed@news.nyu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.ukrainian:18664 soc.culture.baltics:14799 soc.culture.israel:54174 soc.culture.jewish:103938 alt.conspiracy:125697 alt.revisionism:89822

In article <59mc71$oed@news.nyu.edu>, 
Andrew Mathis  wrote:
[> Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name]
>10@11.12 (John Yaya) wrote:
>
>>	What happened to my paternal grandparents?  Got an answer to that?.
>
>I'm just guessing, Matt, but did they commit suicide for having
>spawned your liar father and your sickening self?

    Andrew, what evidence do you have that Mathias Giwer, Sr. (the father
of Matt Giwer, Jr., the proven liar who posts here) is also a liar?
Remember, any claims that Giwer Jr. makes here about what his father said
is simply the worthless testimony of a proven and self-confessed liar, and
cannot be taken as fact.  Given his behavior here, I see no reason to
think that Matt Giwer Jr. would have any qualms about libeling his own
father if it suited his purposes.  So if you do not have independent
confirmation that Matt Giwer, Sr. lied about something, you owe the man an
apology. 

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Dec 29 12:52:31 PST 1996
Article: 89825 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!node2.frontiernet.net!usenet.logical.net!dciteleport.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.ukrainian,soc.culture.baltics,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: From Every Hill and Dale they Come...(was Re: Another lying jew
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 29 Dec 1996 12:24:49 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <5a69h1$joi@access5.digex.net>
References:  <32bc18db.3377832@news.gte.net> <59lc5g$ib@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> <32be494d.125319955@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.ukrainian:18665 soc.culture.baltics:14800 soc.culture.israel:54175 soc.culture.jewish:103940 alt.conspiracy:125701 alt.revisionism:89825

In article <32be494d.125319955@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
John Yaya  wrote:
>
>	Not one ounce [of ashes] has been found at Auschwitz.  Now
>certainly little
>Danny will claim that his miniscule finds at Treblinka should apply to
>Auschwitz but the fact is,  not one ounce at Auschwitz.  

    Quite true.  Hydrokop found somewhat more than one ounce.  So very
good, by playing semantic games you can claim it is a fact that not one
ounce was found at Auschwitz. 

    I do not have to play semantic games to prove that Matt Giwer is a
liar.  He admitted it openly himself.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Dec 29 12:52:32 PST 1996
Article: 89833 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!node2.frontiernet.net!usenet.logical.net!dciteleport.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.pbi.net!news1.rcsntx.swbell.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.usenet.kooks,alt.revisionism
Subject: More amazing legal theories from the Giwer
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 29 Dec 1996 13:25:56 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 136
Message-ID: <5a6d3k$o32@access5.digex.net>
References: <59ghqi$sfi@news.enter.net> <32c5e706.39220075@news.gte.net> <5a4v0h$mfh@access4.digex.net> <32c60460.46733375@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.usenet.kooks:32339 alt.revisionism:89833

In article <32c60460.46733375@news.gte.net>, The First One  wrote:
>On 29 Dec 1996 00:19:13 -0500, mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <32c5e706.39220075@news.gte.net>, 
>>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
>>Doc Tor  wrote:
>>>On 28 Dec 1996 21:25:46 -0500, mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P.
>>>Stein) wrote:
>>>>    Mr. Blackmore, you asked me for evidence to support my claim that you
>>>>have a poor grasp of the English language.  
>>>
>>>	Of course he did not.
>>
>>    Praytell, how would you know?
>
>	Perhaps I was reading?

    You have been breaking into my account and reading my mail?  Would you
like to confess to any other crimes while you are at it?  I am sure Yale
Edeiken would love to hear about them.


>>    Would you finally like to tell us about what Ken McVay asked you that
>>justified the five megabyte mailbomb you sent him?  What is your problem? 
>>Still cannot make up a lie that even you are deluded enough to think you
>>can get someone with the brains of tree fungus to swallow? 
>
>	It was some 20 questions that I did not archive

    Oh, that.  Would you like a copy?  Would you then like to explain in
loving detail how even half the stuff you sent was relevant to any of the
questions?


>but, it I had
>intended a mail bomb, why was it PKZIPped with -ex compression?

    The thought that it would make it faster for you to upload crossed my
mind. 


>And
>if it was an intended mail bomb why was its size less than half my
>mail reader is set to accept?  And since Nizkor at the time was
>advertising that it had 900Megs free, how could anyone possibly
>consider that a mail bomb?

    Oh, I see.  Your excuse is that a small bomb is not really a bomb.
Even if you send one twice.


>	It would have clearly taken over 900Megs to bomb nizkook central
>unless they knew what they were doing in configuring the site which
>they clearly did not. 

    How do you know how the disk partitions are set up?  Is this a
confession that you have broken into Nizkor in order to look at the
partitions?


>But if they did know enough to make less than
>900Megs a mailbomb then they would have known enough to make mailbombs
>impossible.

    Let's see - a mailbomb which is successfully prevented from causing
disruption is not a mailbomb?  Is that the terminally stupid claim you are
making?


>	You see, the nizkooks are still relying upon your ignorance to get
>you to repeat their lies.  You do not know enough about configuring a
>domain server to know they are lying to you.

    The people who have been paying me to administer Unix systems (among
other things) for the past fifteen years will no doubt value your expert
opinion on my job performance.

    Please, please, shove your foot into your mouth some more. 

    Here's an easy one: what is the Unix command that shows you the
mounted disk partitions?


>Either that or they do
>not know enough about it to know they are speaking nonsense.  
>
>	(For the curious, one as a matter of basic practice, sets up a
>logical partition for mail on any server so that no harm can be done.
>Of course one is expected know what one is doing before one cries foul
>from its own ignorance.)

    Again, you appear to be saying that if Nizkor was adequately defended
against a bomb (which it was, but how could you know that in advance?) 
then your bomb becomes not a bomb.  I suppose you would similarly claim
that if I build a building with walls strong enough to withstand a stick
of dynamite, then someone setting off something with the explosive force
of a stick of dynamite outside the building has not really set off a bomb. 

    What a wonderfully stupid idea.  Only a 163 IQ could come up with that
one.  But it might work in court at that.  Get enough members of the jury
to die laughing and it's a mistrial.



[snip]

>	So as to the brains of a tree fungus, those appear to be resident
>only in those who complained and in those who have chosen to believe
>those claims.  What is claimed to have been a mailbomb can not have
>been even to a dial up customer such as myself.  No one knowing what
>they are doing could possibly claim it was a mail bomb.

    So by your standards a criminal who shoots into the chest area of a
cop protected by a Kevlar vest cannot be guilty of attempted murder.
After all, any cop who knows what he is doing should be wearing such a
vest, so a handgun shot into the protected area cannot possibly be a
murder attempt.  Yes, the jury will be rolling in the aisles when they
hear that one.

    You are very amusing when you lie through your teeth.


>	And please keep in mind that at the time these people were so dumb
>they did not realize that operating their site on a modem phone
>connection would cause slow information transfer.  They even thanked
>me for pointing it out.   That is how incompetant they were and in
>fact still are.

    No, the problem is that you are too dumb to recognize sarcasm when you
see it, or (more likely) too dishonest to admit it.  The modem connection
is all there was money for at the time.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access2.digex.net Mon Dec 30 10:00:45 PST 1996
Article: 89969 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.religion.islam
Subject: Nazi Atrocities?
Supersedes: <5a7utc$op0@access2.digex.net>
Followup-To: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power
Date: 30 Dec 1996 03:37:36 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <5a7v0g$oqh@access2.digex.net>
References: <594sos$s6k$1@uhura.phoenix.net> <5a02jd$lo@lex.zippo.com>  <5a4733$944@lex.zippo.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:89969 alt.politics.white-power:54049 alt.religion.islam:37583

    Followups set to alt.revisionism and alt.politics.white-power only.

In article <5a4733$944@lex.zippo.com>,   wrote:
>In article , 
>mvanalst@rbi.com says...
>>
>>In article <5a02jd$lo@lex.zippo.com>, Ourobouros wrote:

[Ouroborous, justifying his citation of the Book of Joshua as proof that
the ancient Israelites committed genocide]
>>> Which, if you cannot already guess, they were proud of
>>> having genocidal ancestry.
>>
>>You have yet to even substantiate, Mr. self-eater, that the Israelites
>>even committed _genocide_. Yet you claim to _know_ that the Israelites
>>were proud of having genocidal ancestry."
>>
>O' unreasoning one, why would they be so keen to record themselves as
>genocidal if they were not genocidal?

    The very amusing thing is many of the same people who accept the Book
of Joshua as proof of the genocidal deeds of the ancient Israelites deny
that the Nazis committed genocidal mass murder against the Jews.  (They
don't talk much about the Gypsies; it makes it hard to maintain the
"Jewish hoax" story.)  The deniers demand physical evidence, and explain
that all confessions were the result of torture.  Those confessions which
cannot be explained away in this manner are declared to be the result of
false boasting or mental illness.

    Yet for some reason Ouroboros's skepticism goes out the window when
discussing the Book of Joshua.  How very strange. 
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access2.digex.net Mon Dec 30 10:00:46 PST 1996
Article: 89970 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Who Resorts to Termination of Services?
Date: 30 Dec 1996 03:07:48 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <5a7t8k$o7c@access2.digex.net>
References:  <59nn79$q1f@news.enter.net> <32C076E9.5F66@phoenix.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net

In article <32C076E9.5F66@phoenix.net>, Doc Tavish   wrote:
>Yale F. Edeiken wrote:
>>         Just wait until [Giwer] recieves his next bill from gte.net.
>> 
>>         And to think he was warned to read the "hold harmless" clause in his
>> user contract.
>> 
>>         --YFE
>
>
>Lurker alert! Newbie alert! I am not being critical and I am not name
>calling- I only say: "Look at which group takes pride in having people
>cut off or ISPs terminated." 

    Unfortunately, Doc, you are a relative newcomer here.  Let me fill you
in on some history.  In the article below, Mr. Giwer certainly sounds like
he took pride in having David Dahlman (aka !rack jite) terminated from his
website host - and this is before Mr. Giwer was booted from his first ISP. 


Subject:      !rack jite is down
From:         mgiwer@combase.com (Matt Giwer)
Date:         1996/03/13
Message-Id:   <4i6008$fng@wi.combase.com>
Organization: ComBaseCommunications
Newsgroups:   alt.revisionism,alt.fan.rush-Limbaugh


        As I said the libelous and and copyright violating page of David
Dahlman has gone done.  If anyone feels harmed by any of his pages
simply contact the webmaster at his service provider.  And it only
took me four days from discovering the libelous and thieving page
existed.
        If anyone else has a problem with this hate site simply contact the
webmaster who is very agreeable to eliminate such tortable violations
fo the law.

[.signature deleted for brevity]

    Posted/emailed.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Dec 31 09:10:20 PST 1996
Article: 90114 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nol.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: For the Benefit of Mr. Kike
Date: 30 Dec 1996 20:20:07 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 60
Message-ID: <5a9po7$nk2@access5.digex.net>
References: <5a9fvd$5v5@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <5a9fvd$5v5@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:

[snip]

>Concerning the on-going debate of whether the river water at Belsen was
>fit to drink, here is a special section from the book, "Basic Field
>Manual--Military Sanitation and First Aid", published by the United
>States War Department: 

[snip]

>METHODS OF PURIFICATION-
>
>Boiling--Boiling is the safest method, but is undesireable because of the
>flat taste and because of the lack of containers for boiling other than
>small quantities. 

    But when it's all you've got, you go with it.  If you're dying of
thirst, taste doesn't matter.  If you've got 60,000 prisoners sitting
around, you have them use the containers you have in shifts, round the
clock if need be.  You do what you can.


>CHLORINATION-
>
>Chlorination is the method of choice

for economic and taste reasons, not safety reasons.


>Now, if anyone has the honesty to admit it, this post should decisively
>settle this water business at Belsen once and for all. 

    Thank you for having the honesty to post this excerpt from an
authoritative source which clearly states, and I quote,

   "boiling is the safest method,"

and that you and Matt Giwer were absolutely, positively, completely,
thoroughly, totally and immensely wrong in saying that it was ineffective. 
This should indeed settle the water business once and for all.  Kramer
should have organized the inmates who could work and set them to boiling
as much water as they could with whatever containers they had. 


[Irrelevant claims completely unsupported by any evidence deleted]

>I need not elaborate on any other
>aspects clearly stated in the War Department manual.

    I agree 100%.  "Boiling is the safest method" speaks for itself
with no need for further elaboration, at least for anyone who reads
English at the fourth grade level.

    Posted/emailed.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Tue Dec 31 09:10:22 PST 1996
Article: 90132 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.fdt.net!news.gwi.net!news.bihs.net!news.tamu.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!eru.mt.luth.se!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Nazi asks about the Talmud (Sara?)
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 29 Dec 1996 00:19:13 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <5a4v0h$mfh@access4.digex.net>
References: <59ghqi$sfi@news.enter.net> <59hnln$9h0@juliana.sprynet.com> <5a4kra$at4@access1.digex.net> <32c5e706.39220075@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article <32c5e706.39220075@news.gte.net>, 
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
Doc Tor  wrote:
>On 28 Dec 1996 21:25:46 -0500, mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>>    Mr. Blackmore, you asked me for evidence to support my claim that you
>>have a poor grasp of the English language.  
>
>	Of course he did not.

    Praytell, how would you know?

    Would you finally like to tell us about what Ken McVay asked you that
justified the five megabyte mailbomb you sent him?  What is your problem? 
Still cannot make up a lie that even you are deluded enough to think you
can get someone with the brains of tree fungus to swallow? 


>If all this didn't help, they pretended not to understand, or, if
>challenged, they changed the subject in a hurry, quoted platitudes,
>which, if you accepted them, they immediately related to entirely
>different matters, and then, if again attacked, gave ground and
>pretended not to know exactly what you were talking about.  

    Then again, when it comes to competence in English, Matt Giwer makes
R. Blackmore look like William Shakespeare. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Tue Dec 31 09:10:23 PST 1996
Article: 90197 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: For the Benefit of Mr. Kike
Date: 31 Dec 1996 08:31:58 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 77
Message-ID: <5ab4ke$cdm@access4.digex.net>
References: <5a9nuf$k9t@news.enter.net> <5aakqe$icu@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article <5aakqe$icu@juliana.sprynet.com>,  wrote: 
>, you obviously failed to "get the point", as did Mike
>Stein.......boiling the water without suitable containers for 60,000
>people was completely impractical at belsen. 

     Because!  I!  Say!  So!

     I repeat: take all the cookpots you have.  Use them round the clock
if need be.  The cookpots were not used round the clock for preparing
food.  You need not boil all the water at once.

     More importantly, the inability to save everyone is no excuse for
failing to even try to save anyone.  You seem impervious to having this
very simple point enter your skull.


>this is in complete agreement with the
>text of the military manual.

     What is not in agreement with the text of the manual is your previous
claim that boiling would not have been sufficiently safe.  It is good to
see that at least you are not trying to salvage that piece of stupidity,
and you are desperately searching around for another excuse.


> The preferred method would have been chlorination in specially fitted
>dispenser bags, which could accomodate the great number of people in the
>camp.  The british obviously brought these items with them from their
>field units.  Look at the documentary produced by hitchcock and narrated
>by Trevor howard, and you will see what I am referirng to here.  As
>usual, you are wrong, and Giwer and I are right

    You were both quite wrong when you said that boiling was not safe.
Sorry about that.  Dishonestly pretending that you two did not focus on
the safety issue rather than the economic issue will not change that.

    As for containers, billions of people all over the globe are fed meals
cooked in two-quart pots.  Imagine that!  While large-scale processes may
be more economically efficient, if you have the labor and nothing better
to do with it then you can use small-scale processes.  You have claimed
that there were healthy inmates, because you have claimed that much of the
the filth was the result of deliberate choice rather than inability to
make it to the latrine.  Therefore by your own prior claims there was
labor.

    There were resources available to do much more than Kramer did, even
if it may not have been enough to do 100% of the job.  This refutes your
claim that Kramer did the best he could.  You are now reduced to the
excuse that the inability to do 100% of the job justified doing absolutely
none of it.

    Of course if you wish to abandon your claim that there were healthy
inmates, and give up blaming the inmates for deliberately creating the
filthy conditions, then I suppose you can salvage your apology for Kramer.
But you will have to admit to being wrong about something no matter what
you do.  I suggest you give up the defense of Kramer, because if you
change the other position, you will admit to greater dishonesty in making
up your claim about healthy inmates deliberately fouling the camp out of
whole cloth.


>Just when you think it is safe to enter the
>water, some dumb shark comes up and bites you on the ass.

    Yes, but I never before saw a shark so dumb that it bit itself in the
ass.

    "Boiling is the safest method."  Thank you for admitting that you were
wrong in saying that boiling could not be used because it would not have
killed the germs, which is what you had previously been basing your
apologies for Kramer on.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Tue Dec 31 14:13:55 PST 1996
Article: 90246 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: An honest interview
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 31 Dec 1996 08:42:19 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <5ab57r$cmp@access4.digex.net>
References: <32c8185f.89266581@news.gte.net> <32c87527.4292059@news.gte.net>  <32c895a3.12607649@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article <32c895a3.12607649@news.gte.net>, The First One  wrote:
>On Mon, 30 Dec 1996 20:18:09, joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <32c87527.4292059@news.gte.net> at@dot.dot (The First One) writes:
>>
>>
>>>On Mon, 30 Dec 1996 18:12:36, joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg)
>>>wrote:
>>
>>>>In article <32c8346d.96448629@news.gte.net> at@dot.dot (The First One) writes:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>On Mon, 30 Dec 1996 13:54:46, joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg)
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>In article <32c8185f.89266581@news.gte.net>Matt "Jabba" Giwer gibbers:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    Canadian TV, being a small country 
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Canadian TV is not a small country.  
>>>>
>>>>>        The US has at least one state with greater economic clout than
>>>>>Canada.  
>>>>
>>>>Probably more than that, but Canadian TV is not a small country.  Nor is it a 
>>>>radish.  Nor a turnip.  Nor a secret recipe.  
>>
[snip]
>	A passport does not establish citizenship.  You are a citizen of
>one country or the other, not both. 
>
>>And neither US TV nor "Canadian TV" is a "small country."
>
>	I said only that Canada is a small country.

    No, you _intended_ to say that Canada is a small country.  You
_actually_ said that Canadian TV was a small country.  What you should
have written was something like "Canadian TV, coming as it does from a
small country..." 

    But we already knew that you were illiterate.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.



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