From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Nov  1 11:52:55 PST 1996
Article: 78115 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More honey from the lips of Marduk.
Date: 28 Oct 1996 17:16:34 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <553bc2$p1g@access5.digex.net>
References: <326F388C.370C171D@vertigo.combase.com> <54p3r9$aa3@access5.digex.net> <3271305E.7AC8013C@vertigo.combase.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <3271305E.7AC8013C@vertigo.combase.com>,
Hardwire   wrote:
>Michael P. Stein wrote:
>
>>     The fact that you are posting from Matt Giwer's old ISP has not
>> escaped my notice, BTW.
>
>What??!  What is it with all of your fascination about the ISP I'm
>posting from??
>
>If I were posting from Worldnet, Netcom, or any other site that Giwer
>had been too, would you be this amazed by it?

    No, since they are national providers.  Combase is not.  Your presence
here defending Giwer is an interesting coincidence.


>Is this guilt by association on a grand scale?

    Merely a suggestion that you have some sort of personal connection to
Matt Giwer, whether direct or indirect, and that you are posting from a
very one-sided view of things without bothering to acquaint yourself with
the evidence.


>Oh, and do tell Oh Great and Powerful one.  Since it's "not escaped" 
>your attention, what do you plan to do about it?  Is this a
>not-to-subtle threat?

    If Matt did not agree with what you said, he would have called you
paranoid for that remark.

    Threats and pseudothreats are Matt Giwer's department.  If you had any
interest in the evidence, you would know that.


>-- Hardwire

    It is very noble of you to defend a man who has called you scum in
public.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Nov  1 16:38:57 PST 1996
Article: 78156 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More honey from the lips of Marduk.
Date: 1 Nov 1996 15:07:31 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 60
Message-ID: <55dla3$56t@access5.digex.net>
References: <326F388C.370C171D@vertigo.combase.com> <3271305E.7AC8013C@vertigo.combase.com> <553bc2$p1g@access5.digex.net> <846863630.14477.1@vertigo.combase.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <846863630.14477.1@vertigo.combase.com>,
Hardwire   wrote:
>Michael P. Stein wrote:
>> 
>>     Threats and pseudothreats are Matt Giwer's department.  If you had any
>> interest in the evidence, you would know that.
>> 
>
>Actually I've seen threats from the other side as well.

    Why don't you post some of those threats?

    You seem to have no doubt that these threats were genuine, yet you
suggest that Matt Giwer is the victim of forged messages.  Given your
apparent belief that perfect forgeries are common and easy to pull off,
how do you know they weren't forged by Hitlerhuggers seeking to discredit
their opponents? 

    I suppose I should mention that I am still waiting for you to send me
a perfect forged email ostensibly from a host other than your own.  Matt
couldn't do it, perhaps you know how.


>>     It is very noble of you to defend a man who has called you scum in
>> public.
>
>Please.. do post the source for this particular gem.

    Your humble servant is only too happy to oblige.  I am always ready to
back up my claims. Unlike certain Tampa-area residents I could mention. 



 Subject:      Re: unsolicited email
 From:         mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
 Date:         1996/09/30

[snip]

        Idiot handles, dickless wonders too cowardly to use their own
name, are scum.



    You can verify the above post via DejaNews.

    Or do you claim Hardwire is your legal name?

    Matt Giwer has on several occasions used the issue of "handles" as an
excuse to avoid the substantive issues raised by someone not posting under
a real name.  Of course, he also once suggested that "Michael P. Stein" 
might not be my real name.  I'm in the friggin' phone book.  But Matt
can't be bothered to research anything that can't be found on the Web, it
would seem.  (And sometimes even on the Web - Switchboard has me listed.)

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Nov  3 08:09:21 PST 1996
Article: 78352 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!news.sgi.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MESSAGE TO MCVAY
Date: 31 Oct 1996 17:59:59 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <55bb1f$bjp@access5.digex.net>
References: <54bc4u$eqe@news1.total.net> <326AB954.5E14@compusmart.ab.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <326AB954.5E14@compusmart.ab.ca>,
Wes Kreider   wrote:
>Judith
>
>Hope your ISP isn't Jewish owned otherwise Mcfly will complain to them
>and they will warn you that they will cut you off.

    Nah.  She's a girl.  Only the Jewish boys (or guys who wanna be) get
cut off.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Nov  3 08:09:22 PST 1996
Article: 78353 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Survivor" Abraham Glinowieski-Beaten by the Invisible Man
Date: 31 Oct 1996 18:11:23 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <55bbmr$c4t@access5.digex.net>
References: <326fb297.266261854@news.zilker.net> <54qah3$bu@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <54qah3$bu@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>   mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) writes:


>  [Blackmore:]  Also, I do not believe in corporal
>  punishment.  Now, do you approve of the way Germans were interrogated
>  and mistreated by the allies?
>  
>  
>  Mr. Blackmore is now shifting the subject to another that is not a
>  part of the discussion concerning the treatment of human beings placed
>  in camps for no other reason than that they were Polish, Jewish,
>  Russian, or Germans who disagreed with an authoritarian government.
>
>Now notice how Mr. Curtis avoided answering the question because
>he simply cannot bear to admit that germans were as mistreated as
>every other nationality during the war.

    Notice that Mr. Blackmore, who evades many questions with the plea
that they are not relevant, suddenly objects when someone else fails to
answer an irrelevant question - and claims telepathic powers, that he
knows the real reason for Mike Curtis's method of dealing with the
question.


-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Nov  4 06:14:32 PST 1996
Article: 78408 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!news.nstn.ca!coranto.ucs.mun.ca!news.unb.ca!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More honey from the lips of Marduk.
Date: 1 Nov 1996 14:46:52 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 96
Message-ID: <55dk3c$4ev@access5.digex.net>
References: <326F388C.370C171D@vertigo.combase.com> <3271305E.7AC8013C@vertigo.combase.com> <553bc2$p1g@access5.digex.net> <556fm2$fb6@news.gate.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <556fm2$fb6@news.gate.net>, Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gate.net) wrote:
>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <3271305E.7AC8013C@vertigo.combase.com>,
>>Hardwire   wrote:

>	Actually he is going the extra mile to look at the evidence.  In 
>fact he is going farther than most people would ever imagine doing.

    This from the man who solemnly declared that the people at Birkenau
were headed for the stairs down from the train platform.  Had he imagined
going as far as the library to look at the picture, he would have seen
that the platform was ground level and had no stairs.

    So from Matt Giwer's perspective Hardwire may be going the extra mile.
Not, however, from mine.


>>>Oh, and do tell Oh Great and Powerful one.  Since it's "not escaped" 
>>>your attention, what do you plan to do about it?  Is this a
>>>not-to-subtle threat?
>
>>    If Matt did not agree with what you said, he would have called you
>>paranoid for that remark.
>
>	Not in the least.

    It is of course expected that you will not tell the truth.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html



>In fact, when Ken McVay contacted my parents that was a
>"subtle hint" right out of NYC and only dismissable by the naive.  

    Of course it was not Ken McVay who called.  Andrew Mathis admitted
calling and identifying himself as Ken McVay after finding out he had the
wrong Matt Giwer.


>>    Threats and pseudothreats are Matt Giwer's department.  If you had any
>>interest in the evidence, you would know that.
>
>	You should post them some day

    How about

     Subject: McVay, never a Marine, unless a queen marine
     Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 07:55:40 GMT
     Message-ID: <4sq3it$dhj@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>

    A copy may be found at http://www.nizkor.org/encouragements/giwer.html
and confirmed via DejaNews.


>along with the proof they were not forged.

    Prove a negative?  How very strange you are.

    And proof is for mathematicians.

    But you know that.

    As Hardwire himself said recently, perhaps it should be noted that not
once has Matt Giwer denied posting anything found under his name on
DejaNews other than the obvious Marduk posts which clearly showed the
Canadian origin in their headers.  (He has of course repeatedly denied
posting things _before_ the DejaNews citations were produced, but once
they were produced, he did not claim forgery.)


>>    It is very noble of you to defend a man who has called you scum in
>>public.
>
>	And when was that?

    30th Sept. 1996.


>Or do you think he is dumb enough to fall for that approach?

    He's dumb enough to think that your problems must be due to forgery
since no rational person would get themselves booted off more than one
ISP.  Obviously he must also be dumb enough to think that all repeat
offenders were framed since no rational person would get themselves thrown
in jail twice.

    Or maybe he's just dumb enough to think that you're rational just
because you've managed to keep your web site articles more or less
coherent.  (He should take a look at what you post here.)
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Nov  5 06:58:47 PST 1996
Article: 78529 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.mci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fill Me In: What happened to the Giwer-Swine?
Date: 30 Oct 1996 12:31:51 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <5583e7$fcq@access5.digex.net>
References: <54fvdl$jb6@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> <54p5ct$b58@access5.digex.net> <199610300622.BAA28335@access4.digex.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article ,
Hardwire   wrote:
>
>
>On Wed, 30 Oct 1996, Michael P. Stein wrote:
>
>>     I have made the same statement [that Matt Giwer is a liar] for
>> months. Matt Giwer has not filed suit against me.  Draw your own
>> conclusions.
>> 
>
>My conclusion would be that Mr. Giwer, unlike many of the people on this 
>group, has a higher tolerance level and does not revert to crying 
>"technicality!" or "legality!" when threatened with a post meant to 
>incite and provoke. 

    I realize that you do not like to deal with such inconvenient things
as evidence when forming your conclusions, but I must point out the
episode in March '96 where Matt filed a complaint about Rack Jite's web
pages and made public noises about suing.  (That is not the only time Matt
has made noises about lawsuits, though the threats all have turned out to
be empty so far.)

    While I am not privy to what was said to Combase, going only by what
was discussed publicly and as best I can remember without searching
DejaNews, Matt's complaint against Rack Jite preceded any complaints to
Combase about Matt Giwer. 

    In other words: thanks for playing, please try again.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Thu Nov  7 06:13:02 PST 1996
Article: 78720 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More stupidity from the lips of Hardwire.
Date: 6 Nov 1996 20:18:31 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <55rdd7$6f2@access1.digex.net>
References: <326F388C.370C171D@vertigo.combase.com> <846863630.14477.1@vertigo.combase.com> <55dla3$56t@access5.digex.net> <847310772.16749.13@vertigo.combase.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <847310772.16749.13@vertigo.combase.com>,
Hardwire   wrote:
>Michael P. Stein wrote:
>
>>     Matt Giwer has on several occasions used the issue of "handles" as an
>> excuse to avoid the substantive issues raised by someone not posting under
>> a real name.  Of course, he also once suggested that "Michael P. Stein"
>> might not be my real name.  I'm in the friggin' phone book.  But Matt
>> can't be bothered to research anything that can't be found on the Web, it
>> would seem.  (And sometimes even on the Web - Switchboard has me listed.)
>> 
>
>Isn't it funny how Matt Giwer is also listed in the phone book, and yet
>it's surprising that someone would need to harass his parents to verify
>his very existance.... hmmm.. go figure...

    Isn't it funny that the only Matt Giwer on Switchboard and on the
CD-ROM of all listed phone numbers in America is Matt Giwer, Sr. in
Cinncinnati.

    Please prove that Matt's parents were harrassed.  A simple phone call
does not constitute harrassment.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Thu Nov  7 06:13:03 PST 1996
Article: 78736 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newshub.csu.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: More honey from the lips of Marduk.
Supersedes: <55rep8$7a1@access1.digex.net>
Followup-To: misc.test
Date: 6 Nov 1996 21:14:24 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <55rgm0$8jo@access1.digex.net>
References: <326F388C.370C171D@vertigo.combase.com> <556fm2$fb6@news.gate.net> <55dk3c$4ev@access5.digex.net> <847311441.16749.14@vertigo.combase.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <847311441.16749.14@vertigo.combase.com>,
Hardwire   wrote:
>Michael P. Stein wrote:
>> 
>> In article <556fm2$fb6@news.gate.net>, Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gate.net) wrote:
>> >mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>> >
>> >>In article <3271305E.7AC8013C@vertigo.combase.com>,
>> >>Hardwire   wrote:
>> 
>> >       Actually he is going the extra mile to look at the evidence.  In
>> >fact he is going farther than most people would ever imagine doing.
>> 
>>     This from the man who solemnly declared that the people at Birkenau
>> were headed for the stairs down from the train platform.  Had he imagined
>> going as far as the library to look at the picture, he would have seen
>> that the platform was ground level and had no stairs.
>> 
>>     So from Matt Giwer's perspective Hardwire may be going the extra mile.
>> Not, however, from mine.
>
>Unfortunately, I don't really care about the content of Matt's posts,
>nor do I care much for holocaust revisionism, so your statement has no
>bearing.

    Unfortunately, I was not replying to you, so your statement has no
bearing.

    Or is this an admission that you are Matt Giwer after all?

    When you figure out which stupidity you want to confess to, please get
back to me. 

[snip]

>One more goat to the line Mr. Stein.  Here's some vaseline in case your
>lips get chapped.  Moron.

    Thank you for your very intelligent and mature contribution.

    But you still have a long way to go before you reach Giwer's level. 
You need to keep practicing.  My advice is to study the examples on
Nizkor; a pint of gin before posting is a great aid.  You'll get there
eventually; I have faith in your abilities.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Thu Nov  7 06:13:03 PST 1996
Article: 78748 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-12.sprintlink.net!gryphon.phoenix.net!insync!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.usenet.kooks,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More stupidity from the lips of Hardwire.
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 7 Nov 1996 00:01:55 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <55rqg3$deo@access4.digex.net>
References: <326F388C.370C171D@vertigo.combase.com> <847310772.16749.13@vertigo.combase.com> <55rdd7$6f2@access1.digex.net> <847334280.8623.4@vertigo.combase.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.usenet.kooks:30642 alt.revisionism:78748

In article <847334280.8623.4@vertigo.combase.com>,
Hardwire   wrote:
>Isn't it also funny that you'd resort to using a digital phone book to
>look someone up, when any printed/stored information by default is
>always outdated.  Really funny that you'd not try and use INFORMATION,
>you know, 411 (or 1411 depending on the area you're in, and when that
>fails, just 0).
>
>And... I don't HAVE to prove harassment... 
>
>I'm just here to annoy you.
                  ^^^^^

     What a funny way you have of spelling "amuse."

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Nov  8 10:58:06 PST 1996
Article: 78828 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Still waiting for public caca
Date: 7 Nov 1996 18:50:15 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <55tsjn$1cc@access5.digex.net>
References: <130205@alt.revisionism> <847316400.23380.11@vertigo.combase.com> <130278@alt.revisionism>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <130278@alt.revisionism>, Troy Varange  wrote:
>Hardwire 
in <847316400.23380.11@vertigo.combase.com> wrote:
>
>> Nahh.. she loves sending cc's... they all do, makes 'em feel squishy or
>> something I guess.
>
>And then they cry about receiving them!
>
>They can dish it out but can't take it!

    Not only have I seen nobody cry about receiving them in general (only
>from  certain people), I have explicitly invited Cc:'s of posts replying to
my posts.  News had a major flakeout here over the weekend, and many posts
are missing.  Just indicate in the body of the email that it is a copy of
a public post.  That way I have the option to make a public response even
if news is unreliable and does not deliver the article to my news server.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access2.digex.net Mon Nov 11 07:03:59 PST 1996
Article: 79139 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!feed1.news.erols.com!news.idt.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.pbi.net!news1.rcsntx.swbell.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Never In All Hisotry Has The Winning Side Ever Committed  A War Crime
Date: 11 Nov 1996 01:12:31 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <566g4f$gop@access2.digex.net>
References: <3278C38F.29B9@conterra.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net

In article <3278C38F.29B9@conterra.com>,
Bob Whitaker   wrote:
>I am  interested: does anybody know an exception to this rule.

    There was a movie, Breaker Morant, about one such incident during the
Boer War.  Though I suppose technically you could claim he wasn't on the
winning side, Lt. William Calley (though not his superiors, who were
strongly suspected of complicity) was at least tried by his own side.
There are a couple of Canadians on the Somalian peacekeeping mission who
got into hot water as well; don't know what the state of their prosecution
is. 

    If you want to amend it to say that no _leader_ of a winning side has
been prosecuted for a war crime, that I cannot refute by counterexample
offhand.

>   Doesn't it say somthing about these precious "precedents" War Crimes
>are tried on?

    No, it says something about the people establishing some of those
precendents.  The fact that the fellow next to you got away with driving
70mph does not get you out of the speeding ticket for going 68, nor does
it say anything about the validity of the 55 mph speed limit.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Nov 13 06:28:38 PST 1996
Article: 79293 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.exodus.net!news1.best.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Raven admits existence of Nazi gas chambers and gassing!
Date: 12 Nov 1996 08:51:16 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 88
Message-ID: <569vck$93m@access5.digex.net>
References: <199611112031.PAA12560@vixa.voyager.net> <3287C909.2FD3@kaiwan.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <3287C909.2FD3@kaiwan.com>,
Greg Raven  wrote:
>Jamie McCarthy wrote:
>> 
>> The problem, Mr. Raven, is that you also define the term Holocaust as
>> (1) "the murder of six million Jews," (2) "as a central act of state by
>> the Nazis," (3) "many in gas chambers."
>> (snip)
>
>I do? If you were paying as much attention to what I actually say and
>write on this subject as you do to Hitler's birthday, you would have
>long ago discovered that this is NOT my definition of "the Holocaust."

    If you were paying as much attention to what you wrote as Jamie and I
were, you would know that this was the working definition you used when
you first proposed discussing the subject here.


>Defining 'Holocaust': A proposal
>
>by Greg Raven
>
>Although there are thousands of books about aspects of the plight of
>European Jews during the Second World War, few define with any precision
>what they mean by the term that has come to represent this plight:
>"Holocaust." [...]

[ See: http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg/misc/definition.html for full text ]

    I have been inspired by Mr. Raven's burst of logorrhea to examine
another aspect of the historical record: "gas chamber" and "gassing."  Mr. 
Raven has long denied that Jews were "gassed," and demanded that someone
produce a picture or plan for a Nazi "gas chamber," which he claims never
existed.  But what, really, do these terms mean?

    It is interesting to note that the OED contains a direct definition of
"gas chamber."  But the quote is far different from what Mr. Raven would
like to you believe the Nazis never had.  "Gaschamber: an apparatus used
in microscopy for studying the action of different gases on structures or
organisms."  Now, it is well-known and (to the best of my knowledge) 
admitted by the IHR that the Nazis did conduct lethal medical experiments
on concentration camp inmates.  One of these experiments was the effect of
low pressure on human beings.  However, the effect of low pressure is
really the effect of the higher internal pressure of the organism,
including that of gases contained in the organism.  Therefore the
experiment involved a chamber for studying the action of gases (contained
within the organism) under low-pressure conditions.  It appears that Mr. 
Raven now admits that the Nazis had a gas chamber in Dachau for use in
their low-pressure experiments. 

    Mr. Raven does not escape if we break the term up into its component
parts.  "Chamber" means a compartment of some sort, especially a room.
Does Mr. Raven seriously expect people to believe that the Nazis did not
have rooms?  And leading scientists, including Nobel prize winners, agree
that air is a gas under normal conditions.  If a "gas chamber" is definied
as a room containing gas, then I just slept in a gas chamber.  Again, it
is clear that the Nazis did have gas chambers.

    Even more confusion adheres to the term "gas."  Mr. Raven has denied
that the Nazis "gassed" Jews.  But the very first verb definition is "to
supply with gas."  It beggars belief to say that not a single Jew was
supplied with gas during the Nazi regime.

    Perhaps what Mr. Raven denies is that the Jews were impregnated with
cholorine in the manufacture of bleaching powder.  If so, he is correct,
but then again, no historian, Jewish or otherwise, has ever claimed that
the Nazis did this - so why is he spending so much time propagandizing on
the issue?

    Now we come to a definition that Mr. Raven might well have in mind:
"To be gassed: to be poisoned by a gas."  However, I was under the
impression that the IHR did not deny the existence of the T-4 program
(there is a signed Hitler order for the euthanasia program), nor that some
of the victims of that program were Jews.

    But of all the definitions of "gas" used as a verb that I see in the
OED, the ones I like the best are: "To indulge in 'gas' or empty talk;  to
vapour, to talk idly or boastfully" and "To deceive or impose upon by
talking 'gas'."  Not only does the IHR vigorously agree that every
explicit mention of a Nazi plan or desire to exterminate the Jews was
precisely the first of these two, but Mr. Raven's sophistic article about
definitions is a prime example of the second definition.

    Posted/emailed to Mr. Raven and Mr. McCarthy.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Nov 13 06:28:38 PST 1996
Article: 79295 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!node2.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mr. Raven, please explain the contradiction
Date: 12 Nov 1996 12:02:46 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <56aajm$39n@access5.digex.net>
References: <199611112031.PAA12560@vixa.voyager.net> <3287CA0E.6A59@kaiwan.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Bcc: jamie@voyager.net

In article <3287CA0E.6A59@kaiwan.com>,
Greg Raven  wrote [to Jamie McCarthy]:
>It never fails to amaze me to learn how closely people of your sexual
>preference keep track of Hitler's birthday.

    It never fails to amaze me to learn how closely people of your
political preference are interested in and make gratuitous remarks about
people's sexual preferences. 

    In between your whining about personal attacks, that is.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Nov 13 06:28:39 PST 1996
Article: 79326 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!node2.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A matter of links, Part 2 of 2
Date: 12 Nov 1996 17:35:22 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 172
Message-ID: <56au3a$lse@access5.digex.net>
References: <567mk9$6e5@noc.tor.hookup.net> <19961111223100.RAA09239@ladder01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <19961111223100.RAA09239@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
  wrote:
>hard stuff you see here, but large elements of it.  "Liar" is used so
>frequently you'll think it's a conjunction.  Whole sections are devoted to
>trivial subjects to try to prove that someone is a "liar."  The focus on
>personal attack in preference to issues is vividly apparent.  The stated
>intent is that the character of a person is important in judging the
>validity of their statements.  Because there is an element of experiential
>truth to this, it is adopted as an invariant principle with this end in
>mind--if someone's low character is deemed to have been properly judged in
>this manner, then nothing the "liar" says is worthy of discussion.  Thus
>the lengthy task of examining issues in good faith is bypassed, there
>being much less work and risk that way.

    You are suffering under a huge misunderstanding, then.

    The rule is not that the liar's words are unworthy of discussion.

    The rule is that the liar's words are not worth accepting without
independent verification of references.

    Michael Hoffman II has lied.  I can prove that to courtroom standards. 
He has also drawn conclusions from evidence so unsupported by the ordinary
meaning of the words contained in the documents that it is hard to avoid
the conclusions that he was either self-deluded to the point of mental
illness, or deliberately lying.  However, in the matter of Reszo Kastner,
he brought proper, verifiable documentation to the table.  It said what he
said it said, and I publicly declared he was telling the truth on that
issue.  But if he were to reappear and make a new claim without evidence,
I would demand the evidence and check it.  If he evaded, I think it only
proper to caution people to assign a value to his unsupported claim in the
light of his previous troubles with the truth. 



>Better minds than mine observed long ago that no productive communication
>between humans can take place without some amount of mutual respect (good
>faith) present.

    Excuse me, but how can one have good faith in the word of a person who
deliberately deceives, whether by omission or commission?  I had always
thought that one of the components of dealing in good faith was dealing
honestly.

    And unless you are studying psychology or engaging in some other goal
not related to the content of the conversation, how can you consider
productive a discussion in which one person is attempting not to inform
you, but to deceive you?


>If one party insists on displaying clear and continuous
>scorn not only for the other person's ideas, but for the person himself,
>then all you get is a heated argument.

    Does not prevarication display clear and continuous scorn not only for
the truth, but for the person being lied to?


>This is not conversation, it is a
>waste of time.  Not only the time spent in it, but time spent in voiding
>your mind of the dreck it can leave there if you approach it with
>sincerity.

    Is not trying to extract factual knowledge from someone attempting not
to educate but to deceive you a waste of time?  Are not falsehoods
precisely "dreck" which you should seek to sweep out of your mind?


>Being labeled a "liar", "moron", "nazi","idiot", "neo-nazi",
>and the ubiquitous "denier" and "hater" tends to close a mind quickly
>unless you discount the source, and thus the effort.

    I would agree that some people use the term "liar" too loosely.  As I
have said before, to me a lie is something that is uttered with the
knowledge that it is false, or with good reason to know that it is false.
"Lying by omission" is an attempt to deceive not by uttering a falsehood,
but rather by failing to disclose a material fact which, if revealed,
would be reasonably likely to cause the listener to place a different
weight on the rest of the material, or to reach a completely different
conclusion.


>Yet some Nizkor
>supporters have argued here that this is justified, even necessary!  If
>you present someone with truth and they refuse to accept it, the line
>goes, then what other conclusion can you reach except that he's a liar and
>a moron and should be denounced as such.

    First, a liar is someone who knowingly repeats falsehoods.  Now, some
people are too quick to assume that the writer _knows_ that the thing
being uttered is false.  But if someone is given evidence to the contrary,
and repeats the falsehood in public without at least mentioning the
contrary information, then the person is at the very least lying by
omission from that point on.

    As for a moron, that is of course a judgement.  Reasonable and
intelligent people can disagree about things.  But don't you think that
there are some cases of invalid reasoning that are so wildly nonsensical
and illogical that there is virtually no chance of having a productive
conversation with a person - that either the person will never understand
the point you're trying to make, or the person's conclusions are not
sufficiently trustworthy and you must review the evidence yourself rather
than trusting in the validity of conclusions that the person presents to
you as truths?

    Take for example, Leon Degrelle's argument that the gold teeth could
not have been extracted because it takes fifteen minutes for a dentist to
extract a tooth from a live patient, and it must take _longer_ for an
extraction from a corpse because the corpse is not cooperating.  Now, I
suppose you could say that one should refrain from calling the late
general a moron.  But "moronic" certainly seems to be an apt adjective for
the reasoning presented. 


>It's not only the right of every
>decent person to do this, it is something approaching a duty.

    Yes, I think it is a duty for me to warn you that the landlord you are
about to rent from has a history of neglecting reasonable repairs on the
property.  Would you prefer for me to keep my mouth shut and let you be
stuck with a miserable apartment?

    And I think it is a duty for me to warn you that the auto shop down
the street has a history of doing shoddy and/or unnecessary repairs.
Would you prefer for me to keep my mouth shut and let you be stuck with a
poor-running car and a padded bill?

    Similarly, I think it is a duty for me to warn you that the person at
that website is peddling provable falsehoods and lies by omission, and you
should (metaphorically speaking) look under the hood before buying lemon
facts.  Would you prefer for me to keep my mouth shut and let your mind be
filled by junk? 



>Well, I beg to differ, and strongly.  Such a course is not only
>counterproductive, it's loutish.

    Then I suggest you start picketing the Better Business Bureau for
their loutish behavior in warning people about disreputable businesses. 
In all honesty I see no difference in warning about shady merchants and
shady information sources.  I consider the point about payment to be
irrelevant.


>I look at Nizkor where communications have been established, and see a
>slightly more civil version of the above.  The words "liar", "lies" and
>"lying" pepper their responses and analyses.  Stop me if I'm wrong, but
>don't most people go out of their way to avoid encounters like this? 
>Isn't this an excellent way to insure that an exchange goes nowhere?  Who
>would seek this out, and why?

    But there is a very simple way to avoid an encouter like that.

    Don't lie.


>If Nizkor would discuss issues in a civil manner and drop the off-putting
>personal attacks, they'd be a lot more effective.  Assuming, of course,
>that that is their goal.

    I am sorry if you find it uncivil of me to point out when Greg Raven
deliberately doctors a quote or gives a blatantly distorted paraphrase in
order to present falsified evidence.  I consider such practices to be
disrespectful to me, uncivil, and off-putting.  Don't you?

    Posted/emailed (news is pretty shaky around here these days).

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Nov 15 06:32:59 PST 1996
Article: 79557 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!node2.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!news.texas.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Lanzmann, not dead yet
Date: 15 Nov 1996 02:45:27 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 117
Message-ID: <56h72n$b6q@access5.digex.net>
References: <56dp5d$4o7@Vir.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <56dp5d$4o7@Vir.com>, Jean-Francois Beaulieu   wrote:
>
>  Recently I posted something on Suchomel and there was a couple of
> arguments develloped in alt.revisionism.
> One of the argument is that more than one camera may have been involved.
> Another one is that the picture could have been taken from outside, through
> a window. Another one, Annie Halpert, said that Suchomel asked to not reveal
> his name but accepted to be filmed. Obviously the latest one is a
> non-sense. However, there's an index of the N.Y Times at Concordia
> University and I was able to find a couple of articles printed in 1985.
> The 20 october 1985, page H-17, Lanzmann explain how he filmed Suchomel:
> he brough with him a woman, and she hide a camera in a bag. There was a
> little hole in the bag. This is his version. It is thus impossible to
> film from 3 different distances and get a closed picture of the map in
> such a case.

    Impossible?  I suggest there are some things you have not considered.

    Ever hear of a zoom lens?

    Ever hear of editing?

    Ever hear of enlargement?

    I think you spoke of a close-up of Suchomel with the map, yes? 
Another way this can be done even without a zoom is if the woman just
stands up and goes close to the map (as if she is also looking closely). 
Suchomel is looking at the map, she can move the bag pretty freely. 

    A close-up of the map without Suchomel could easily be obtained if
Suchomel left the room for a minute to go to the bathroom sometime during
the interview.  Or if Lanzmann himself brought the map to help with the
interview, it could be filmed later and edited into the sequence to allow
the viewer to know what Suchomel was talking about.  I think this kind of
thing is not all that rare.  I will ask a friend of mine who works on
documentary films.


> Obviously Lanzmann lied.  Don't ask me why a man who invest
> 10 years of his life to make such a film with millions is enough stupid
> to take 3 different views in such a way and give us the rope to hang
> him: perhaps it is typical of the holocaust mythology. I'm not aware
> that this important aspect has been in the last 11 years but anyway,
> you'll have to live with it now.


[...]

> tsss, now that he was caught he try desesperatelly to lie! The picture
> is bluerred, but with a rubber mask it certanly looks approximativelly
> like Suchomel. As I said, there is frequent sketch on TV from people
> who use such a plastic or rubber mask, and the imitations are quite
> good, although they are not perfect.

    Well, fine, produce the rubber mask.  Or if "he could have done it" is
good enough to call Lanzmann a fraud, then "they could have done it" is
good enough evidence to prove Nazi gas chambers.


> But here Lanzmann claim that he
> took those pictures in Suchomel's appartment with a transmitter, and
> that his team in the van received it, and that this is why the image
> is of a so poor quality. This doesn't explain the picture of the map
> from few inches,

    I have offered a couple of possibilities.  There may be more - it's
been a long time since I've seen the film.


> nor that the camera never shake,

    Put the bag down on a chair or table, of course it will not shake.

> nor the 2 different
> distances for Suchomel's face.

    Zoom lens.

    Enlarging the picture.  If the closer distance seems blurrier than the
farther one, this is probably how it was done.

    Shooting from two different places.

    Remember, you don't know how long the interview went on.  I saw
"Shoah"  years ago, but I seem to remember vaguely that there were at
least two separate times that Lanzmann entered the house.  Lanzmann may
have rearranged the order of questions in editing the film. 

    If they spent (for example) the morning shooting from one chair, ate
lunch, then came back in and shot from a different chair for the
afternoon, Lanzmann could take afternoon question-and-answer snips and put
them in between morning question-and-answer snips.  This would make it
look as if the camera was moving between two points during the interview.
As long as the answers are kept with the same questions, this kind of
rearrangement would not distort the meaning.  Lanzmann might have done
this to make it less monotonous in appearance. 

[...]


> And the voice? who claim
> that the voice is a perfect imitation? It is certanly not a perfect
> one.

    So you say this is an actor playing Suchomel?  And you know the
imitation is not perfect?  You have, then, a sample of the real Suchomel's
voice which you have compared with the Lanzmann film?

    As far as I can tell, the sum total of your evidence for any of this
is: "It _could_ have been faked that way." 

    Posted/emailed.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Nov 15 06:32:59 PST 1996
Article: 79575 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.lava.net!nntp.reed.edu!camelot.ccs.neu.edu!nntp.neu.edu!cam-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: **************** G I W E R   R U L E S  ***************************************************
Date: 12 Nov 1996 12:17:29 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <56abf9$4ad@access5.digex.net>
References: <32793cdd.441542@news.zippo.com> <32798fa9.24153673@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <327d0df5.7417017@news.zippo.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <327d0df5.7417017@news.zippo.com>,
Chris Carpenter  wrote [to John Morris]:
>John, the killfile tactic didn't work - Giwer got around it and won.

    Won what?  For anyone with reasonable software who knows how to
formulate a killfile, Giwer can only get around it as long as it takes to
become aware of his new ISP and add another line to the killfile.  I have
never seen a need to killfile him, however.  If he is in full spam mode I
can just junk all his articles by hand with a few keystrokes. There is
some benefit in being a Unix weenie, after all.  :) 


>His forgery strategy didn't work - you won. And so it will continue,
>tit 4 tat.  Giwer took you all on, single handedly!

    And made a fool of himself.  Singlehandedly.  So what?


>There is one secret method that works. Remember when Dr. Keren
>left "dreck" mode and went back to posting the good stuff like
>pic refs, book quotes, and documents? [...]

    Well, yes.  But that never stops Giwer.  He a) makes false claims
about the evidence, or b) makes assertions for which he fails to provide
evidence, or c) just falls into his own "dreck" mode.  I mostly ignore (c) 
and point out the failures in (a) and (b) - along with a pointer to
Giwer's own admission that he lied and his solidly documented history of
lying.  After that, it's up to the lurkers to make up their own minds.  No
problem. 

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Nov 16 06:59:34 PST 1996
Article: 79694 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A matter of links, Part 2 of 2
Date: 15 Nov 1996 14:24:29 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <56ig1d$ao1@access5.digex.net>
References: <567mk9$6e5@noc.tor.hookup.net> <19961111223100.RAA09239@ladder01.news.aol.com> <56au3a$lse@access5.digex.net> <56idp0$924@access5.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <56idp0$924@access5.digex.net>,
 wrote:

>The position of some appears to be that all of their opposition are liars to
>one degree or another, and that their purpose is to expose those lies when
>and where possible.  Well, I can understand that position.  But I don't think
>it's true, and I have seen it invoked incorrectly a number of times,
>including on myself.  I can't speak for the intent of others, I can only
>surmise.  But I damned well can speak for my own intent, and that is to be as
>accurate as possible in what I say and to always keep all my positions open
>and receptive to valid input which may modify them, even to the point of
>total reversal if that is where the facts lead.  A lot of people who oppose
>my opinions will read this and say to themselves, "Liar!"  That's the main
>point I've tried to address.

[snip]

>>I would agree that some people use the term "liar" too loosely.
>
>Exactly.  Mark this one down as "common ground."

    I guess where we fundamentally disagree is simply on the point at
which one can come to a valid conclusion.  I am, I like to think, very
careful about the standards I use to label something a lie.  However, my
honest opinion is that you often seem to bend over so far backwards to
excuse something someone has said that it comes across as dishonesty, or -
at the very best - moral cowardice.  What I mean by this is that you're
too afraid of being "not nice" to allow yourself to voice an adverse
judgement about someone which is clearly called for by the evidence.

    Sometimes judges have to find people guilty, you know.  A judge who
acquits or gives a light sentence to a clearly-guilty rich person is
liable to be suspected of having accepted a bribe, even if the motivation
was an honestly-felt concern that nobody else could see.  "Yes, the
defendant was caught red-handed killing his rich uncle with an axe, and
his diary showed his plans for carrying out the crime, hiding the body,
and spending the money.  However, there was heavy sunspot activity during
that time period, and we know that magnetic fields _might_ have some
influence on the brain, so I find reasonable doubt and must decide not
guilty by reason of temporary insanity."

    In the same vein, you sometimes find innocent interpretations far
beyond my ability to give benefit of the doubt (and I've been told
sometimes that _I_ go to far).  When one person thinks another has
announced a verdict completely at odds with the evidence, that is viewed
as some form of irrationality or dishonesty.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Nov 16 06:59:34 PST 1996
Article: 79710 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!node2.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.usenet.kooks,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Attack on Alt.Revisionism -- Gate.Net Refuses to Help
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks,alt.test
Date: 13 Nov 1996 20:11:32 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <56drk4$nng@access5.digex.net>
References: <558uaj$38a@panix2.panix.com> <847634956.358.0@perdrix.demon.co.uk>  <847905697.2404.12@vertigo.combase.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.usenet.kooks:30934 alt.revisionism:79710

In article <847905697.2404.12@vertigo.combase.com>,
Hardwire   wrote:
>Dene Bebbington wrote:
[>>Fergus McClelland wrote:]
>
>> >Miss Schwartz does not state what she means in a way that I can know
>> >for certain. She may be referring to a flag of truce. She may be
>> >referring to a surrender.
>> 
>> Or she may be referring to the KKK...
>> 
>
>Now that's an interesting point, considering that I wouldn't expect
>someone of British origin and who is currently residing in Britain to
>understand a concept that is purely American in origin.

    This is a highly amusing comment, considering that Dene Bebbington's
address is dene@bebbo.demon.co.uk. 


>If you fall on your face as well as your arguements do you must be one
>UGLY son-of-a-bitch.

    As juvenile as Giwer, but only one misspelling and no neologisms. 
More alcohol is obviously still required.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From DvdThomas@aol.com Tue Nov 19 06:46:42 PST 1996
Article: 79973 of alt.revisionism
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A matter of links, Part 2 of 2
Date: 15 Nov 1996 13:45:52 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 172
Sender: DvdThomas@aol.com
Message-ID: <56idp0$924@access5.digex.net>
References: <567mk9$6e5@noc.tor.hookup.net> <19961111223100.RAA09239@ladder01.news.aol.com> <56au3a$lse@access5.digex.net>
Reply-To: DvdThomas@aol.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!lantana.singnet.com.sg!violet.singnet.com.sg!newsvr.cyberway.com.sg!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!cambridge.emi.net!andromeda.vec.net!nebula.vec.net!news.new-york.net!news.columbia.edu!panix!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail

[ Note: David Thomas was having technical difficulties and asked me to
post this reply for him. ]

The following is in response to Mike Stein's reply to the originating post
for this thread.  This first post (two of them, actually) addressed three
items:

(1)  Why revisionist sites were not anxious to cross-link to Nizkor.
(2)  Some discussion of Nizkor's selective emphasis on people instead of
issues.
(3)  The negative impact of personal attack on attempts to communicate.

>>Better minds than mine observed long ago that no productive communication
>>between humans can take place without some amount of mutual respect (good
>>faith) present.
>
>    Excuse me, but how can one have good faith in the word of a person who
>deliberately deceives, whether by omission or commission?  I had always
>thought that one of the components of dealing in good faith was dealing
>honestly.
>
>    And unless you are studying psychology or engaging in some other goal
>not related to the content of the conversation, how can you consider
>productive a discussion in which one person is attempting not to inform
>you, but to deceive you?

By communication, I mean a sustained dialogue with many exchanges.  A
conversation.  In the course of an ordinary conversation in which neither
party has the intent to deceive, there will on a regular basis be
misunderstandings that create inappropriate responses.  Poorly thought out
remarks and mistakes will be made which may or may not be revisited and
revised.  The revisitation may be due to a challenge by the recipient, or the
originator may bring it back up after review of his remarks.  Gradually, with
the scrutiny and effort of both participants, the inappropriate, irrelevant
and erroneous elements are weeded out of the dialogue, resulting in
statements now agreed on by both, and the areas of commonality are clearly
identified, and, to some lesser extent, the same can be said of the areas of
disagreement.  This is what I mean by communication--not swaying someone's
beliefs, but finding out what those beliefs are and then determining which if
any of them are acceptable to you.  Highly arguable material presented as
fact will prolong this.  Seizing on any contradiction, mistake, vagary, or
what have you and calling it a lie will derail the process before it begins.
 You have to give a little, keep going and say, I'm not sure I
understood--are you saying xxx or yyy?  Repeat it, revisit it until you're
sure that the meaning and intent are clear before you even begin to put it
through the quite necessary filter of determining, where possible, if
non-truths have been put forth and if so, were they offered knowingly?  This
is a measure of the good faith extended to you.  If you find it missing, then
you would have to conclude that no valid communication took place and that
you do not have any material with which to gauge common ground.  At this
point, in my mind, one is justified in saying that they don't play games with
cheaters, and remove any further dialogue to one of exchanging factual
information, not opinions.  Evaluating facts is much harder with someone who
demonstrates _clearly_ an intent to deceive, since you have an indication at
least that all their claims now require an independent reference.  Good faith
has left the discussion.

I doubt that we have much disagreement with the preceding.  I believe it
repeats some things I've heard you say before.  My main point is that the
conclusion of bad faith is made far too early in most of the exchanges I have
observed or been party to, and I think that this is because the caster of the
aspersions came into the exchange in bad faith.  "Let us talk," is the claim,
when what is meant is, "Start talking until I catch you in a lie, which won't
take long, and then I'll tear you apart."  Jamie McCarthy once wrote a
rousing little piece on how he'd like to get Bradley Smith in a room with a
camera and it would take only ten minutes or some such to prove the
dishonesty of his positions (I paraphrase here, been a while since I read
that material).  This is NOT good faith.  Suspension of that attitude is
necessary to have any chance at communication.  I think that is hard for some
people, you indicate by your remarks that this is the case for you.  Once
you've been burned, how do you objectively engage that party in conversation
again?  It can be done, I do it regularly.

You start by reminding yourself that few if any humans view themselves or
their beliefs as bad.  Wow.  That guy really believes the shit he repeats.
 Wonder how?  You really want to find out?  Ask him.  Politely, respectfully.
 Hold your venom for later.  If you do this right, the venom won't be there.
 Probe till you're satisfied that you know where he's coming from.  You'll
probably find that at some point, as things continue without attack, insult
and vilification, the other party will relax and begin doing the same thing
with you. If all goes well, it will take the turn of a conversation with a
stranger on a plane--you'll both make statements revealing some deeply
personal things that normally would not have come out.  This is the tentative
beginning of an honest introduction--here, here's part of the real me--does
this make you recoil or can you accept it, maybe even respond positively?
 (Now a zealot reading this and imagining it happening with his nemesis is
already growing nauseous.  Everybody got their problems.)  It's important to
treat exchanges at this (usually private) level with confidence and not turn
them against someone later--IF THE INTENT IS TO COMMUNICATE.  If that is not
the intent, then little of what I say is material to whatever the other
intent is.

Then, after you get to know the person, you discuss nuts and bolts.  This can
be done in hard-ball fashion if you are mature enough to separate the
relationship established from the subject matter, and continue to treat the
other party with the common courtesy and respect that should be shown between
any two humans.  When your discussions are finished, when you get to the
point that you decide your fundamental beliefs are too different to arrive at
any consensus, then gather your information together go off and attack the
positions you disagree with in any way you wish.  Tear it apart, excoriate
details, ridicule justifications--do anything you want, just leave the
personal angle out of it.  And then you'll find that in many cases (not all
by a longshot) you will be able to converse with that person again in the
future.  Call somebody names, justified or not, and the doors close.

The position of some appears to be that all of their opposition are liars to
one degree or another, and that their purpose is to expose those lies when
and where possible.  Well, I can understand that position.  But I don't think
it's true, and I have seen it invoked incorrectly a number of times,
including on myself.  I can't speak for the intent of others, I can only
surmise.  But I damned well can speak for my own intent, and that is to be as
accurate as possible in what I say and to always keep all my positions open
and receptive to valid input which may modify them, even to the point of
total reversal if that is where the facts lead.  A lot of people who oppose
my opinions will read this and say to themselves, "Liar!"  That's the main
point I've tried to address.

>>If one party insists on displaying clear and continuous
>>scorn not only for the other person's ideas, but for the person himself,
>>then all you get is a heated argument.
>
>    Does not prevarication display clear and continuous scorn not only for
>the truth, but for the person being lied to?

If your remark is addressed to justifying the scorn, which it appears to be,
then I make the following observations.

I referred to scorn shown coming into the conversation, right from the get
go.  Contempt, whether the provocation is real or not, insures from the
beginning that no fruitful exchange will take place.  If this can be
realized, the obvious next question is why the hell make the attempt?  I
can't see any valid reason other than to engage in ridicule with a concurrent
attempt to justify same.

If you are saying that scorn justifies scorn, I cannot agree within the
context of effective communication.  If you're really trying, you try first
to get past the scorn.  If you can't do that, then you have two choices.
 Bark back at the dog, or get on to more productive things.  I will inject
again the note that the prejudgement of prevarication is present to a
palpable degree on this forum and in Nizkor.  It is so pervasive as to have
become the nexus of many areas.

>I would agree that some people use the term "liar" too loosely.

Exactly.  Mark this one down as "common ground."

>>I look at Nizkor where communications have been established, and see a
>>slightly more civil version of the above.  The words "liar", "lies" and
>>"lying" pepper their responses and analyses.  Stop me if I'm wrong, but
>>don't most people go out of their way to avoid encounters like this? 
>>Isn't this an excellent way to insure that an exchange goes nowhere?  Who
>>would seek this out, and why?
>
>    But there is a very simple way to avoid an encouter like that.
>
>   Don't lie.

I don't agree that it takes a lie to get that label there, but let us return
to my original point.  Why revisionist sites don't rush to cross-link to
Nizkor.  They don't do it because it rapidly degenerates into a mud-slinging
contest.  The effects of this are obvious and were covered at length above
and in my first posts. Neither the truth or falsity of the allegations nor
justifications for making them publicly in a chain ostensibly established for
communication purposes modifies their negative impact on valid communication.
 So the reason for making a link reduces to receiving insults or engaging in
an exchange of same.  Why bother?  End of point.

David Thomas
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access2.digex.net Tue Nov 19 06:46:42 PST 1996
Article: 80024 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!tor.istar!east.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!winternet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Cremation Rates
Date: 11 Nov 1996 00:45:20 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <566ehg$g2k@access2.digex.net>
References: <32898f2a.813878@199.0.216.204>  <3285fa37.2511006@news.zippo.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net

In article <3285fa37.2511006@news.zippo.com>,
Chris Carpenter  wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Nov 1996 06:22:32 -0700, mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van
>Alstine) wrote:
>
>>"...The temperature at which cremations are done vary based upon the
>>retort manufacturer, but most machines operate between 1,500 to 1,900
>>degrees F. [...]
>>
>>http://www.cremation.org:80/faq.shtml#At what temperature
>>
>  [insults sniped]
>>Mark
>
> Excuse me for sticking my OHV in here but...
>My understanding was that the incinerators used coke as fuel and
>therefore ran at much lower temperatures than you refer to above.
>That's 500F to 700F degrees less than todays retorts.  Lower temps.
>equate to slower burning rates.

    Check your scale of measurement!  The Topf patent and operating
instructions posted here by Mark Van Alstine and Danny Keren mention
operating temperatures of at least 800 degrees - CELSIUS. That translates
to 1472 degrees Fahrenheit, virtually identical to the 1500 F mentioned
above.  The operating instructions warn against letting the temperature go
above 1100 Celsius, which translates to 2012 F.  That's more than the 1900
F cited above.

    Posted/emailed.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Nov 19 06:46:43 PST 1996
Article: 80060 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!news.bconnex.net!news.abs.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Attack on Alt.Revisionism -- Gate.Net Refuses to Help
Date: 15 Nov 1996 10:39:18 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 79
Distribution: X-no-archive: yes
Message-ID: <56i2r6$se3@access5.digex.net>
References: <558uaj$38a@panix2.panix.com> <327d30de.8680278@news.demon.co.uk>  <847634962.358.1@perdrix.demon.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

[soc.culture.jewish removed from Newsgroups: line]

In article <847634962.358.1@perdrix.demon.co.uk>,
Fergus McClelland  wrote:
>Dene Bebbington  wrote:
>>>him. The number, 2,3, or 20 is immaterial. He was cut off because
>>>people complained, giving one-sided "evidence" against him, not
>>>because of all that he wrote. They would hardly present the "good"
>
>Dene Bebbington 
>>Hardly one sided since they (and I include myself in this) simply used
>>Giwer's own posts, that is his own words, when complaining about him.
>>That is hardly biased evidence.
>
>Of course it is. You try that in a court of law, presenting only some
>of the documents from a bundle and not allowing the jury to see the
>rest - see what happens. 

    That would only be true if something were contained in "the rest" 
which alters the interpretation of the ones offered in evidence.  A
corporate memo ordering illegal dumping of toxic waste is not
reinterpreted in the light of a memo asking for a fresh supply of pencils
to be ordered.  Try telling a judge that the jury must be shown every
corporate scribbling back to the dawn of time (including the pencil memo)
before retiring to deliberate - see what happens.

    You are of course welcome to produce other posts which mitigate the
ones offered in evidence against Mr. Giwer.  They're all on Nizkor and
DejaNews; by all means search away.  If you can't find them - and I'm
quite sure you can't - then you're raising more than a bit of a red
herring here, aren't you?


>You are one of those mentally puny people who cannot even manage to
>fight an argument on the internet without running to complain when you
>don't get your own way.  You must consider yourself a nothing and a
>nobody to have to resort to such measures.

    Well, Fergus, I'm sorry to slay your theory with an ugly fact, but
Matt Giwer is by your standards another one of those mentally puny people. 
While he was still at Combase, the ISP he was using when he first appeared
here, he got the web pages belonging to "Rack Jite" removed from Volant
Turnpike, claiming they were libelous.  No judicial determination was made
of that, and they were certainly no more libelous than what Matt utters on
a regular basis.  Furthermore, that happened in March of this year.  As
far as I know, the first complaints to Combase about Giwer occurred in
April after he posted the text of the Wannsee Protocols a dozen times in
an eight day period.

    The complaints to Mr. Giwer's ISPs were caused by his sending of
unsolicited email to the entire user base of Internet Direct, his posting
identical text to the newsgroup tens of times within the same week, his
mailing (twice) a five-megabyte file to Ken McVay after Mr. McVay had
specifically requested no email, and his forging the names and email
addresses of other real people to his articles.

    I regard those complaints as legitimate.  What would you do if I
lobbed a five megabyte file into your mailbox - twice?


>I pity anyone with such a
>lack of self-conviction, such a knowledge of their own incapacity that
>they need to act this way.  Can't you even have an argument or two on
>the internet without crying and slinking off to whimper your
>complaints to somebody bigger than you to do your fighting for you? At
>least Mr Giwer has guts - something you obviously lack.

    Again, he whined to Volant Turnpike about Rack Jite and got him kicked
off there before anyone got him kicked off Combase or even (as far as has 
been discussed here) before anyone complained to Combase.

    Perhaps you should arm yourself with some facts before shooting off
your mouth.  I do however realize that this is contrary to the conventions
of Usenet. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Nov 19 06:46:44 PST 1996
Article: 80079 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!news.bconnex.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Attack on Alt.Revisionism -- Gate.Net Refuses to Help
Date: 15 Nov 1996 11:37:32 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 74
Message-ID: <56i68c$2lp@access5.digex.net>
References: <558uaj$38a@panix2.panix.com> <847587955.17669.0@perdrix.demon.co.uk> <7T9xRBAru6hyEwfJ@bebbo.demon.co.uk> <56hb0v$hqb@news3.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

[ soc.culture.jewish removed from Newsgroups: line ]

In article <56hb0v$hqb@news3.gte.net>, Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) wrote:
>Dene Bebbington  wrote:
>
>>This is the most pathetic evaasion I've seen on here for ages. Does the
>>OED state how good the forgery has to be in order to be called a
>>forgery? The fact that Giwer's forgeries were detected by those aware of
>>his methods, and who know about news headers, makes it no less a
>>"fraudulent imitation of something".
>
>You SILLY, STUPID TWIT!  They were "detected" because I deliberately left my
>sig file the same.  

    No, you "silly stupid twit," they were detected because of the style
and proved by the NNTP posting host line and the "Worldnet" organization
line. That's also how all of Marduk's forgeries of your name were
detected.



Subject:      move it right along - holo1015.zip (0/1)
From:         gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
Date:         1996/10/15
Message-Id:   <53vgac$hrp@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Reply-To:     gmcfee@ibm.net
Newsgroups:   alt.revisionism

Just unzip to a directory and browse index.htm.

        It is agreed this is beyond the ability of so many holohuggers but
give it a shot, learn something.



    There was no misspelling of Gordon McFee's name or email address, and
of course no signature file.

    Marduk no longer posts from idirect.com, and I have always assumed he
was bounced due to your complaints to them about his forgeries and sending
abusive email after being asked to stop.  You complained to them, and I
agree that you were justified in those complaints.  I privately told
Marduk I thought he should stop it - though of course he didn't listen. 

    Well, guess what.  You did the same two things he did (not to mention
spamming by posting identical text tens of times in a short time period),
and people complained about you just as you complained about Marduk.

    As for forgery and mailbombing, I happen to feel that it's up to the
victim to complain to the ISP, so I simply followed nearly every forgery I
saw - both yours and Marduk's - with something to alert people to the
forgery.  (Unless, of course, Rich Graves or someone else had already beat
me to it.)  If you want to complain that some other people whose names you
did not forge were hypocritical in complaining to your ISP when they
failed to complain to Idirect and Netcom about Marduk's, that is a fair
and honest criticism.  However, it does not excuse either your own
forgeries or your own hypocrisy in claiming you did nothing which
justified a complaint.

    I will also say in all fairness I have yet to hear of anything that
you did while a gate.net customer that I would consider grounds for
complaint to that ISP, or for termination of service.  I would appreciate
it if anyone could tell me what happened.  But for the other incidents,
since you complained about Marduk back in March, you are now being
hypocritical and dishonest in pretending there is no grounds for complaint
about what you did in the article I quoted above, or your two
five-megabyte emails to Ken McVay. 

    But you know that.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Nov 19 06:46:45 PST 1996
Article: 80116 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!news.bconnex.net!news.abs.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Bye, Bye, "Master Plan"?
Date: 15 Nov 1996 12:22:16 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 99
Message-ID: <56i8s8$4v8@access5.digex.net>
References: <328e83b3.273361@199.0.216.204>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <328e83b3.273361@199.0.216.204>,
tom moran  wrote:
>	
>	There must be hundreds of examples that claim the Holocaust was
>the result of a master plan by Hitler and the Germans to kill all the
>Jews. Now we are starting to see examples of claims that say it was an
>off shoot result of the German invasion of Russia.

    That is the thesis of Arno Mayer.  However, he seemed to ignore a lot
of inconvenient evidence which did not agree with his theory.


>	Evidently their counting on the newly released documents from
>Russian archives to show millions more were killed in Russia by German
>police and not necessarily by the SS, with it all becoming the
>precedence for the eventual establishment of "extermination camps".
>
>	The one thing we can come to recognize when researching the truth
>or falsity of the Holocaust story is that there is nothing to show
>there was a master plan.

    That's not true, Tommy.  But it _would_ be true to say that there is
nothing which _conclusively proves_ the existence of a master plan, at
least before the start of the war.  There is some evidence for a master
plan, but also some evidence against it.

    Holocaust historians have for a very long time been divided into two
camps, the "intentionalists" (who believe Hitler had an intention to kill
all the Jews as soon as he could get away with it) and the
"functionalists" who believe that the Nazis started killing Jews as a
reaction to circumstances and a progressive.


>The whole story, the result of 99% eyewitness
>testimony, has the extermination system being run in such a haphazard
>way it is obvious it can not be shown to be the result of a master
>plan with premeditated organization. The whole Holocaust story is the
>composite of eyewitness testimonies.

    Now we come to the difference between a master plan that has all the
details worked out, and a plan which definitely intends a result, but is
still looking for the way to get that result.  I don't know of anybody who
claims that Hitler planned, all the way back in 1933 or even 1939, to
build a camp at Treblinka which would use carbon monoxide and another camp
at Oswiecim which would use cyanide to kill Jews.  That's a strawman.  The
two scenarios which are seriously discussed by historians are: 

    1) Hitler was consciously looking for a way to kill Jews as soon
       as they could figure out the technical means and could do it
       without too many people catching on and stopping them.

    2) Hitler just wanted to get the Jews out of Europe, and he would
       have been very happy to send them all to Madagascar or Israel.
       Unfortunately it turned out that they only way they could get
       the Jews out of Europe was to kill them.  So that's what they
       decided to do.


    That is the very real and very legitimate argument between historians. 
The first group would be the people talking about a "master plan."  But I
think both groups agree they didn't really know for sure which method of
killing would be best, so they tried different things and changed when
they found a better way.


>	Thus, if one eyewitness testimony says they had under ground gas
>chambers at one camp, another saying they were rooms off a corridor
>with large back doors for unloading the bodies at another camp,
>another saying there were tilting floors to dump out the bodies at
>another camp, then this is what the story is made up of. This is the
>Holocaust story.
>
>	Thus too, if eyewitness testimonies tell us the Germans used a
>diesel engine from a Russian tank to generate carbon monxide at one
>camp, a Russian submarine engine at another, tanks of carbon monoxide
>at another, fumigation pellets at another, mostly shooting at another,
>then this is what constitutes the story. This is the Holocaust stew
>brewed by multiple chefs who didn't know what each other was putting
>in.

    It's not that they didn't know what the others were doing, it was that
they were not sure what would work best.


>	Once we recognize how the story is put together, we can
>understand why the story lacks anything that could suggest a master
>plan. 
>
>	Now all we have to do is wait and see if this new alibi for no
>master plan will become a full blown 'revision'. You know. Complete
>with the denials that any master plan was ever claimed.

    I don't deny that people talked about a master plan.  However, I deny
that they meant that every technical detail was spelled out in advance.
You're arguing a strawman.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Tue Nov 19 06:46:45 PST 1996
Article: 80212 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Attack on Alt.Revisionism -- Gate.Net Refuses to Help
Date: 17 Nov 1996 23:12:15 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 53
Distribution: X-no-archive: yes
Message-ID: <56onmv$cqu@access1.digex.net>
References: <847634962.358.1@perdrix.demon.co.uk> <567bqp$qkb@news.enter.net> <3297a289.8981549@news.demon.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <3297a289.8981549@news.demon.co.uk>,
Fergus McClelland  wrote:
>yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>
>(Yale F. Edeiken
>>If British "culture" includes lying, extortion, harassment, forgery, and 
>>invasion of privacy as acceptable behavior, than I have another reason to be 
>>thankful for the American Revolution.
>
>Here I assume that you are implying that Matt Giwer is "guilty" of all
>those acts you list.
>So, you claim that he has lied in this group. I would suggest that,
>given the plasticity of the word in this group that many of the
>"extortionists" have lied in various ways.

    I would suggest that a very strict definition of lying applies to
Matt's work.  When he says something one week and denies saying that thing
the very next week, and a neutral archive (DejaNews) confirms he said the
thing he later denied, what would you call it?  Early-onset Alzheimer's?


>You get more interesting when you claim extortion. What on earth has
>he extorted and from whom? I look forward to details, or I may have to
>assume that you are fantasizing.

    Look on Nizkor under "encouragements."  Matt Giwer coupled a demand
for destruction of data on Nizkor with a warning that "unspecified
penalties may apply."  The post may be verified on DejaNews.  


>Harrassment. 
>In America, is one uncalled for e-mail to you harrassment?

    That would appear to be Mr. Giwer's view.  Marduk sent an uncalled-for
email to Mr. Giwer's son, and Mr. Giwer called it harrassment. 


>Forgery.
>I have already covered this point in other replies. Given that his
>sig. file was included and the style of writing was his usual and the
>misspellings of the headers it was not forgery at all.

    That was not true in all cases.  He forged a post from Gordon McFee
with neither any misspelling of the header nor the signature file.  While
the style was the same as his usual, it does not prevent DejaNews from
attributing it to Gordon McFee, nor newcomers from erroneously emailing
Gordon to flame him for the work of Giwer.

[remainder deleted; I'll let Yale deal with the legal issues]
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Nov 19 06:46:46 PST 1996
Article: 80245 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: More lies and tortured confessions?
Date: 18 Nov 1996 11:16:11 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <56q24b$jrk@access5.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

    Here are two actual excerpts.  I did not make them up.

    I would like to ask the revisionists: could this be a true testimony
>from  a member of the Einsatzgruppen, or must this be anti-German
propaganda or a confession extracted by torture?  What are your reasons
for your answer?

     "[S]eeing a baby ... crawling away from a ditch already filled with
     dead and dying villagers, [he] seized the child by the leg, threw it
     back in the pit, and shot it."


    I would like to ask the revisionists: could this be an authentic quote
>from  Heinrich Himmler or must it be a Soviet forgery?  What are your
reasons for your answer?

     "[I]f your son is killed by those babies you'll cry at me, 'Why
     didn't you kill those babies that day?'"
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Nov 19 06:46:47 PST 1996
Article: 80247 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!news.clark.net!mr.net!news.idt.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fill Me In: What happened to the Giwer-Swine?
Date: 18 Nov 1996 10:08:22 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <56pu56$bn8@access5.digex.net>
References: <54fvdl$jb6@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> <56hapj$hqb@news3.gte.net> <56kuo7$4sl@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <328e76eb.91871894@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <328e76eb.91871894@news.gte.net>, Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) 
wrote:
>What holohuggers are like
>
>The follow are examples of 
>holohugger support of their private holocaust.  

[snip]

    And all taken out of context.  "[Q]uote out of context for the purpose
of creating a false impression is a libel and tortable."

    But Matt knows that.  After all, he said it.

    What Matt Giwer is like can be seen at:

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

    We can get back to discussing physical evidence if Matt can ever learn
which end of the aerial photograph is up.  I wonder if he's finally
figured out that Kremas IV and V were not in the middle of the women's
camp? 
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Nov 19 06:46:47 PST 1996
Article: 80322 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nova.thezone.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel
Subject: Re: 961115: The Tale of the City of Nanaimo.
Date: 18 Nov 1996 21:08:53 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 129
Message-ID: <56r4rl$scj@access5.digex.net>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:80322 alt.fan.ernst-zundel:3110

In article ,
E. Zundel Repost  wrote:

>November 15, 1996
>
>Good Morning from the Zundelsite:

[snip]


>Out of that, and many letters back and forth, all of which are archived for
>posterity, grew the aborted "debate" that triggered last year's cyberwar
>about Free Speech on-line - another Zundel First.

    In passing, this statement of cause and effect assumes facts not in
evidence, to use one of Greg Raven's favorite phrases.


>Ever since, we have linked with Nizkor on every one of our documents,
>stating "We do not recruit;  we convince.  Truth has no need of coercion.
>For relentless Holocaust promotion, on the other hand, contact Nizkor."

    This one is known as "poisoning the well."


>If people click on "Nizkor", it takes them straight to their page where
>Deborah Lipstadt, in "Denying the Holocaust", is quoted, for her part, as
>follows:
>
>"...truth is far more fragile than fiction...reason alone cannot protect it.=
>"
>
>We beg to differ, see?  Makes us look good by comparison, doesn't it?

    How so?  Reason cannot _alone_ determine all matters of fact.  If I
were to tell you that years ago, Ernst molested a small child, how would
reason _alone_ - unaided by evidence - prove the truth of Ernst's
innocence?


>This [refusal] made me think that Ken's handlers - or the people for whom
>he so diligently performs his shabbes-goy job at Nizkor - were shielding
>him from me.

    Ah, those shadowy "handlers."  Ain't paranoia grand?  Hate to
disappoint, but any "handlers" would have more luck herding cats.


>I got off the boat, looked up a map, and drove to what I thought was the
>Nizkor Office advertised on the Internet.  Imagine my surprise when I could
>only find a mail drop - the kind you see in most cities where frequently
>"fly-by-night" outfits operate their shady enterprises.

[snip]

>You can call me at the Zundel-Haus, and I personally answer the phone.  I
>take great care to be accessible.  You can visit me at a real location with
>an address listed in the telephone book where grown-up people live and work
>in real rooms.  Every day, I talk to people face to face - even enemies and
>opponents.  My name and full address are on my letterhead and business
>cards, in video films and TV and radio shows broadcast around the globe.
>That's how I have operated for all of the 38 years I have lived in Canada.
>That is my style - because I have nothing to hide.

    Not quite true.  Ernst has been the target of attacks, and it would be
prudent to avoid making his location public knowledge.  I believe David
Irving's recent series of lectures were held in locations not given out in
advance.  Do you and Ernst think David Irving was doing something sleazy
at those lectures, that he had something to hide? 

    I respect Ernst's decision.  But neither would I condemn a decision to
be discreet based on considerations of personal safety.  Ken has received
messages from people who do not sound like they have his best interests at
heart.  While he has not yet been the target of physical violence, who
knows what would have happened had his location been as well-known as
Ernst's?


>In my opinion and experience, only cowards, liars, con-men and crooks  hide
>behind a PO Box

    One more group: people who HATE having to fill out change-of-address
cards.  I started renting a PO Box back in college for that very reason. 
I've moved twice since coming to this area (both times to nicer homes,
thanks), but I've had the same mailing address the entire nine years.
Even my mother sends letters to the box rather than the house.


>What do you make of this story?  These Nizkor folks are allegedly into
>spreading "truth" about the Holocaust and fighting Nazi lies etc.  I wonder
>why they are hiding - or what they have to fear.

    The same thing Ernst has to fear.  There are anti-racist crazies, and
there are racist crazies.


>Frankly, I was saddened by this lesson.  I thought Ken McVay was an
>electronic free speech advocate and freedom fighter.  It seems to me now
>that he is either a prisoner in that mail box out there in Nanaimo or, more
>likely, a front man for deeper, darker things - and someone is exploiting
>and using him, fearing that in a face-to-face confrontation, Ken would not
>be able to hack it and might become a convert to the Zundel cause after
>all - which would be sad day indeed for the synagogue boys.  And for
>Nizkor!
>
>I understand Ken is an American.  I find it ironic that a man raised on
>First Amendment Rights, undoubtedly taught to cherish free speech, now
>works, or at least fronts for, an organization that has him utterly gagged.

    I guess you don't really understand in full what free speech means. 
It includes the right to keep silent, and the right not to listen.

    For my own part, I wouldn't have made the same decision Ken did.  I've
had dinner with Robert Faurisson and Ross Vicksell of CODOH.  If you're
ever in the DC area, I will be happy to meet with you if my schedule
permits.  (Let me know as far in advance as possible.)

    But Ken has his own opinions on the matter, and he's exercised his own
right of free expression.  Or shall I ask what shadowy handlers keep you
>from  speaking out in alt.revisionism?  If you can make your own decisions
about that, you are being highly insulting and patronizing for assuming
that Ken is neither capable of nor entitled to make his own decisions
about other channels of communication.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Nov 19 09:34:16 PST 1996
Article: 80401 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Attack on Alt.Revisionism -- Gate.Net Refuses to Help
Date: 19 Nov 1996 12:17:13 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 84
Message-ID: <56sq2p$d7h@access5.digex.net>
References: <847634962.358.1@perdrix.demon.co.uk> <3297a289.8981549@news.demon.co.uk> <56onmv$cqu@access1.digex.net> <848404577.3949.2@vertigo.combase.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <848404577.3949.2@vertigo.combase.com>,
Hardwire   wrote:
>Michael P. Stein wrote:
>
>> >You get more interesting when you claim extortion. What on earth has
>> >he extorted and from whom? I look forward to details, or I may have to
>> >assume that you are fantasizing.
>> 
>>     Look on Nizkor under "encouragements."  Matt Giwer coupled a demand
>> for destruction of data on Nizkor with a warning that "unspecified
>> penalties may apply."  The post may be verified on DejaNews.
>
>I would think that in a court of law, "unspecified penalties" could also
>construed as actions taken by legal process.  Such as sueing for
>copyright infringement.  Of course that's just what comes to mind from
>the occasional banterings on this group.  The statement "unspecified
>penalties" could mean anything.  It does not constitute extortion.

    Not even Matt is stupid enough to make a threat that he couldn't try 
to weasel out of in just that way.

    However, you are failing to consider the fact that he made some
demands that could not possibly be enforced by legal process.  If he had
demanded only removal of his archived articles, that could be as you
describe.  But he demanded removal of EVERY reference to him, even oblique
references and secondary quotations.  By the ordinary and reasonable
interpretation of those words, he also demanded removal not only of
quotations of his words in our own posts which would be permitted under
"fair use" rules, but even completely original text mentioning him in
factual terms.  This is a clear demand for suppression of the free speech
rights of others, something he could not possibly enforce by any legal
penalties.

    Furthermore, the following exchange took place in followups:



>>>>        If I have to spell it out further, unspecified penalities will
>>>>be invoked.

>>>>        I hope this is clear.

>>>Hee hee heee.

>>>Sue and be damned.

>>>Pretty, pretty please

>>        This time I said nothing about suing.
>>

>I know, and that's what got you in trouble.  You've the right to sue --
>although you've got to be prepared for the penalties of your frivolous
>lawsuit -- but you don't have the right to make implicit threats  of
>violence.

>Now, have you?

>I'll leave the answering of that question to Netcom, and to the cops, and
>perhaps to your local authorities.  You can talk it over with them.

>Enjoy.

        You are rather insane to read what is not there.



    He is correct that the explicit threat is not there.  Unfortunately
for Matt, it does not matter whether he made an overt threat, nor whether
he had any real intention of doing anything if his demands were not met. 
Even if it is pure bluff, if a conscious attempt is made to obtain some
goal or benefit by acting in a manner calculated to create a fear of
extralegal attack in a reasonable person, the elements of the crime are
present.

    The key issue is whether a reasonable person might perceive such a
threat.  Matt's gun talk and occasional incoherent rants add credibility
to the idea that he might indeed be nuts enough to go after Ken
personally, not just launch an electronic attack on the computer system.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Nov 20 06:02:59 PST 1996
Article: 80458 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!peerfeed.internetmci.com!panix!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: **************** G I W E R   R U L E S  ***************************************************
Supersedes: <56titg$8af@access5.digex.net>
Date: 19 Nov 1996 19:52:50 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 128
Message-ID: <56tkp2$9f9@access5.digex.net>
References: <32793cdd.441542@news.zippo.com> <32913e28.21872178@news.gte.net> <329171f7.92046820@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <329226e3.31106169@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <329226e3.31106169@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>On Tue, 19 Nov 1996 11:33:05 GMT, John.Morris@UAlberta.CA (John
>Morris) wrote:
>>>	On the other hand, this is clearly not the place for constant
>>>spamming of holocaust stories such as by Keren and McVay.
>>
>>You're one to talk! You posted the Wannsee Protocol thriteen times in
>>eight days without comment.  
>
>	And?  I was told it was absolute proof of extermination.  I read
>it.

    But you clearly did not understand much of it.  For example, how the
"will be sterilized" was a proposed law, not something which had been made
into law.  Remember that bills in Congress contain "shall be" wording from
the start, but they are not law until they are passed and accepted by the
President (or a veto overridden). 


>It was no such thing.  I posted it many times to demonstrate it
>was no such thing and given the lack of response, everyone agreed it
>was no such thing.

    False.  I had no idea what point you thought you were making by
posting it over and over and over.  So how could I be said to agree with
an unstated point?


>Then weeks after I stopped, the holobuggers simply
>started declaring it was and REFUSED to point out which part of is was
>that proof.

    False.  The part about laborers succumbing along the way shows intent
that they die, and die prematurely.  And what benign explanation can you
find for the last bit which says the survivors must be treated
appropriately lest they become the germ cell for a new outbreak?  They
have just said they expect to work many to death.  And suddenly they will
care about the ones who are not cooperative enough to die of ill
treatment?

    Whether you agree with the argument or not, it _was_ explicitly
pointed out - contrary to your claim that people refused to do so. 


>	Which is the point is it not?  If there is going to be discussion
>then honest discussion is required.

    I'm still waiting for you to discuss things honestly.

    Like the discussion of the "will be" language in the Wannsee Protocol,
where I used the very legitimate example of a bill in Congress, and you
dishonestly cut that text out of my reply when responding. 

    Want to get back to the cremation discussion?  The one where you
claimed to be able to compute the amount of energy needed to boil off the
water, but refused to produce your computations?  The one where you denied
that a gram of fat had an energy value of 9 kilocalories, which anyone can
verify is true with a trip to the grocery store?  If you claim scientific
literacy, you should know that a calorie on a food package is a
kilocalorie to a physicist.


>>Nevertheless, it is impossible that there should be a real debate when
>>one side is happily willing to propagate falsehoods. The discussion
>>regresses to a matter of assertion and debunking.
>
>	That is again your opinion but TRUE OR FALSE that does not justify
>disruption of this conference.  Whether you like revisionism or
>revisionists or any thing else, that does not give you license to post
>off topic.

    Who appointed you the supreme judge of what is and isn't the topic
here?  Did you newgrp this conference?


>	Mere assertion is off topic here.

    And how many thousands of your posts contained mere assertion, without
any references?  Would you like to return to the cremation discussion?


>>Alright. Leave aside your web page for a minute. You have stated that
>>I am "invited" to post here if I am civil about it. But YOU don't have
>>to be civil, do you? Why the double standard? Why are you exempt from
>>the standards you set for others?
>
>	I respond in kind.  Do you really believe YFE is telling the truth?

    About what?  About the fact that you sent him email, for instance? 
Yes, I believe him.

    Do you know why I believe him?  Because you have emailed me as well.
Twice.  (Both happened a few months ago.)

    Now, with your emails to me, both times it was _absolutely_ clear you
made a mistake and hit your email button in Free Agent when you intended
to hit the followup button. 

    So it would not be surprising if there were a few times you had the
same accident with Yale - except that the text you sent was not as clearly
an accident as it was with me.  But when it happens, you rant and rave and
claim he is lying, that you never sent him any email. 

    Your ISP looks at their sendmail logs and confirms you did send the
email.  That is their physical evidence. 

    They conclude from the physical evidence that you are a deliberately
harrassing Yale after being told to stop.  And then lying about it.  And
the next thing you know, you are forced to find a new ISP. 

    It would not surprise me greatly if this is what got you tossed from
Cybergate.  I never saw you do anything in public which deserved that
treatment, but of course I would not know about email. 

    And it is all because you are too pigheaded to admit that in the
thousand posts you make each month, there might be one or two or three
times you could have slipped a quarter inch with your mouse.

    You call Yale a jew liar instead.  And get bounced from ISP to ISP for
(among other things) sending unwanted email after being told to stop.

    What do you think you gain from this?

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access2.digex.net Wed Nov 20 06:03:00 PST 1996
Article: 80484 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The discussion has not advanced one bit
Supersedes: <56u6kd$avj@access2.digex.net>
Date: 20 Nov 1996 01:23:55 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 76
Message-ID: <56u85r$bj3@access2.digex.net>
References: <32793cdd.441542@news.zippo.com> <329226e3.31106169@news.gte.net> <56tkp2$9f9@access5.digex.net> <329279ee.2247256@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net

In article <329279ee.2247256@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) wrote:
>On 19 Nov 1996 19:52:50 -0500, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <329226e3.31106169@news.gte.net>,
>>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>>On Tue, 19 Nov 1996 11:33:05 GMT, John.Morris@UAlberta.CA (John
>>>Morris) wrote:
>>>>>	On the other hand, this is clearly not the place for constant
>>>>>spamming of holocaust stories such as by Keren and McVay.
>>>>
>>>>You're one to talk! You posted the Wannsee Protocol thriteen times in
>>>>eight days without comment.  
>>>
>>>	And?  I was told it was absolute proof of extermination.  I read
>>>it.                                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[snip]

>	Then you missed the premble to the entire matter where some silly
>twit thought he was being cute claiming it was proof of mass
>extermination plans for jews in the context of gassing
                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[snip]


>	Excuse me.  Where does it saying gassing?  And where does it say
>another ten million by shooting?   Where does it say anything remotely
         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>like what is claimed to have happened?

    Notice how in two posts the request changed from "extermination" - no
mention of methods or numbers - to "extermination in the context of
gassing" - to gassing _plus_ shooting _plus_ the number to be shot _plus_
whatever other unspecified details which may be contained in "remotely
like what is claimed to have happened." 

[snip]

>>    I'm still waiting for you to discuss things honestly.
>
>	Since I have above largely repeated what I have posted before what
>do you consider honest discussion?

    It is certainly not honest discussion to pretend that you asked
someone to show how the Wannsee document contains proof of a plan or
policy of _gassing_ and _shooting_ and _numbers_ and other unspecified
details, when your original request was for how the Wannsee document
contains proof of a plan or policy of _extermination_, period, without any
mention of the means and numbers to be killed by those means. 

    If you cannot even be honest about what you asked for, I see no point
in going on with this charade.

    I will admit that it is true that you did indeed post what you posted
before - including the bait-and-switch of from "extermination" to
"gassing" in the middle of the discussion. 

    We have not progressed one iota.  When you are given what you asked
for, you pretend you really asked for something else or something more, or
start playing semantic games.

    Just as Alec Grynspan said.  You haven't changed, nor did I really
expect you to.

    When you are ready to discuss things honestly, which includes not
pretending you were talking about something different when you get into
trouble with the original topic, let me know.

[remainder deleted]
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Nov 20 06:03:00 PST 1996
Article: 80527 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!peerfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fill Me In: What happened to the Giwer-Swine?
Date: 18 Nov 1996 11:47:54 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <56q3vq$l2b@access5.digex.net>
References: <54fvdl$jb6@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca>   <56hapj$hqb@news3.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <56hapj$hqb@news3.gte.net>, * * <*@*.*> wrote:
>karlpov@access5.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power) wrote:
>
>>Kimberley Ahlf  writes:
>
>>>Matt Giwer is no martyr.  Matt Giwer was not censored, he was censured. 
>
>>It should be added that Giwer actually bragged about the number of
>>BBSs back in the pre-Net days from which he'd been ejected even by
>>the most tolerant of sysops. It was only a matter of time before 
>>he'd manage the same trick on the Net. Of course, he is free to find
>>another ISP among the teeming zillions out there and start over.
>
>	Totally untrue but you are a known liar.

    You be the judge.

    "Lets put it this way.  I have been using bulletin boards for 16
years, since when they were young and the best device was a 300 baud
acoustic couple modem.  I have been kicked off of more entire networks
than most people know exist.  I have been on hundreds of conferences.  My
message run in the thousands, probably tens of thousands." 

Source:

 Subject:      Re: Stupid Germans X
 From:         mgiwer@combase.com (Matt Giwer)
 Date:         1996/03/14
 Message-Id:   <4i7q8h$gqg@wi.combase.com>

Refer to DejaNews for the full context.  The part about tens of thousands
is true, by the way; just adding up the DejaNews entries for his Combase
and Netcom accounts exceeds ten thousand postings - and that is in less
than one year.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access2.digex.net Wed Nov 20 06:03:01 PST 1996
Article: 80529 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!home.ifx.net!news-out.internetmci.com!peerfeed.internetmci.com!dciteleport.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'These mentally diseased people were taken into the gas chambers'
Date: 19 Nov 1996 23:46:09 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <56u2eh$802@access2.digex.net>
References:  <56tlh2$lko@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net

In article <56tlh2$lko@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>>   dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
>>  Excerpts from the testimony of Alfons Klein, who was employed at
>>  the "Euthanasia" (mercy killing) center in Hadamar
>>  [Quoted in "The Hadamar Trial", p. 87]
>>  -----------------------------------------------------------------

[snip]

>>  Q. Who was in charge of this Foundation?
>>  
>>  A. At that time I was told that the office of the Fuehrer was in charge
>>     of it.
[snip]

>He was told just doesn't cut it.  We need more proof than that.

    A facsimile of Reich justice minister Gu"rtner's copy of the initial
order for the euthanasia program, with Hitler's HANDWRITTEN signature plus
Gu"rtner's own handwritten note at the bottom, may be seen opposite the
title page of Friedlander, Henry: "The Origins of Nazi Genocide: From
Euthanasia to the Final Solution" [University of North Carolina Press,
1995]. 

    Does that help?

    Posted/emailed.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Nov 20 06:03:02 PST 1996
Article: 80539 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!news.alfred.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.pbi.net!news1.rcsntx.swbell.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Attack on Alt.Revisionism -- Gate.Net Refuses to Help
Date: 18 Nov 1996 22:38:33 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <56ra3p$5cb@access5.digex.net>
References: <558uaj$38a@panix2.panix.com> <847634962.358.1@perdrix.demon.co.uk> <56i2r6$se3@access5.digex.net> <848094046.14332.7@vertigo.combase.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <848094046.14332.7@vertigo.combase.com>,
Hardwire   wrote:
>Michael P. Stein wrote:
>
>>     The complaints to Mr. Giwer's ISPs were caused by his sending of
>> unsolicited email to the entire user base of Internet Direct, his posting
>> identical text to the newsgroup tens of times within the same week, his
>> mailing (twice) a five-megabyte file to Ken McVay after Mr. McVay had
>> specifically requested no email, and his forging the names and email
>> addresses of other real people to his articles.
>
>Except for the part about forging email addresses, I can relate.  Marduk
>has found it seemingly hilarious to forward messages from this newsgroup
>to my mailbox repeatedly (A few days ago I deleted about 10 of them)
>after explicitly citing that I did not require nor desire a CC from the
>newsgroup in response to my posts.
>
>It's ok though, I've adopted the tactic of choice around here.  From now
>on I'll be forwarding all aforementioned posts directly to
>abuse@netcom.com with my kindest regards.

    Fine by me.  If you tell someone to stay out of your mailbox, and they
don't listen, you have good cause to complain to the ISP of the person
responsible for sending you the unwanted emails.  I think you do need to
ask the person directly in email first, though - I don't think it's fair
to hold someone responsible for reading it in a post unless they are
bouncing your emails unread. 

    I must confess little surprised, though.  That didn't _quite_ strike
me as Marduk's style.


>>     I regard those complaints as legitimate.  What would you do if I
>> lobbed a five megabyte file into your mailbox - twice?
>
>Actually if it were me, I'd simply log into the POP server and kill it
>by hand.  Of course, I have the sense to do that.

    Are you talking about the refrigerator or the Carnegie-Mellon Coke
machine?  :)  Some of us retro types still use Unix shell accounts,
believe it or not.


>>     Again, he whined to Volant Turnpike about Rack Jite and got him kicked
>> off there before anyone got him kicked off Combase or even (as far as has
>> been discussed here) before anyone complained to Combase.
>
>I'd like to interject here that what has occurred to Matt has been
>seven-fold, and not simply a tit-for-tat situation.

    Check DejaNews for Matt's posting volume and compare it to anyone
else's.  Assuming a similar level of email activity, if Matt is _only_
getting it sevenfold....
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Wed Nov 20 06:03:02 PST 1996
Article: 80567 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!solace!demos!news.stealth.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Attack on Alt.Revisionism -- Gate.Net Refuses to Help
Supersedes: <56omon$c6t@access1.digex.net>
Date: 17 Nov 1996 23:30:33 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 173
Distribution: X-no-archive: yes
Message-ID: <56oop9$dju@access1.digex.net>
References: <558uaj$38a@panix2.panix.com> <3283539b.217744@pubnews.demon.co.uk>  <3294a274.8960070@news.demon.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

    I agree some with Sara and some with Fergus.

In article <3294a274.8960070@news.demon.co.uk>,
Fergus McClelland  wrote:
>schwartz@infinet.com (Sara aka Perrrfect) wrote:
>You previously said:
>> schwartz@infinet.com (Sara the Prefect) wrote:
>                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> added/edited by Mr. McClelland, trying to make it look as if I have
>this on
>my header.
> 
>>This shows that Mr. McClelland, for all his "outrage," is guilt of the very
>>same thing as Mr. Giwer. Forgery. Plain and simple.
>
>To wihch I replied that I had not altered your name or your e-mail
>address, so that what I was doing was NOT forgery, or a lie as you had
>claimed. Unless of course, you registered yourself with your ISP as
>Sara aka Perrrrrfect. But even then, this would not be forgery.
>As you dropped the point I assumed that you had seen sense for once
>and realised that I had NOT "forged" anything at this point.

    FWIW, I happen to agree with Fergus on this point.


>Allow me to give you an example from my personal experience.
>A common carrier collected a package from me and I had to fill in a
>form. There was a space for a signature from me which was only to be
>signed if I had my own package insurance and did not want theirs. I
>did not sign it. 
>After the package was damaged in transit, the company tried to evade
>their liability as one of their servants or agents, (incidentally a
>Jew) , had handwritten MY name in the space for my signature trying to
>claim that it was my signature so that he, and the company, would be
>at an advantage. After having sight of the document, I declared that
>it was not my signature and said that it had been forged. The company
>discovered that their man had done it. The police and lawyers all
>agreed that this was NOT forgery, but merely misrepresentation.

    Here I disagree.  It fits the dictionary definition of forgery.  A
forgery need not be perfect to be a forgery.  Where I believe it fails the
legal definition is that the person doing the forging was not personally
trying to defraud you of money by it. 


>>> I repeat here from my last message a bit you removed:
>>> FORGERY:
>>> "The making of a thing in fraudulent imitation of something;
>>> especially, the forging, counterfeiting, or falsifying of a document"
>>>                         OED.

    He made a fraudulent imitation of a thing - to wit, your signature -
onto the document.  Again, the dictionary says nothing about a quality
standard.  For legal purposes, though, he must have criminal intent.  In a
similar vein, I own rental property.  If my tenant forgets to sign the
rent check, I am pretty sure I could forge his signature onto the document
in the dictionary sense without being guilty of forgery in the criminal
sense.  I am entitled to that money; I did not seek to obtain anything to
which I was not entitled.  Let me take a check out of his checkbook when
I'm over at the house to do some work, and write it to obtain money to
which I am _not_ entitled, and the story is very different.


>>> If you were to take one of your dollar notes and draw a moustache and
>>> spectacles on George Washington and even sign it "Sara the Prefect"
>>> this would not constitute forgery. You would of course be defacing the
>>> note but I am sure that, even in America, it would still be legal
>>> tender. 
>>
>>Analogy doesn't hold water, but thanks for trying.
>
>Because you say so? This is not debating its childlike arrogance. Your
>saying something is so does not make it so.

    Your denying it is so does not make it not so.  I think your analogy
is proper for the case of your own alteration of Sara's handle.  But it is
not proper for what Mr. Giwer did.  She gives the analogy below.


>>The proper analogy would be for Mr. Giwer to manufacture his OWN dollar
>>bills, since what he did was to create posts and sign the names of OTHER
>>people to them.

[snip]

>>Making a false claim is the same thing as lying, I believe.

    Um, no, Sara.  Unless you want to say that there is no objective
difference between a mistake and a lie, that any mistake also qualifies
as a lie, you are wrong.

[snip]


>>> >My ISP is quite familiar with me and the actions I have taken. *I* 
>>> >informed them myself. And unlike Mr. Giwer, I have had the same ISP
>>> >for 3 years.
>
>>> I wonder how long you would last if many people ganged up on you?
>>> There are many things that you have said in this group which could be
>>> used against you - review your previous postings carefully and you
>>> will see what I mean. I don't think that you would like me to repeat
>>> them here en bloc. 
>>> >
>>My ISP would stick by me. Period.
>
>Again you stretch credulity. Here you are saying that you can do all
>the things of which you accuse Mr Giwer with impugnity. That you can
>do anything you like on the internet and your ISP will never
>discipline you in any way.  If I have got this wrong, then you have
>misrepresented your postion with them.

    No, you have got this wrong because you completely misinterpreted her
words.  She did not say she mailbombed, which Mr. Giwer has done.  She did
not say that she posted ten to twenty copies of identical original text to
the newsgroup in an eight-day period, as Mr. Giwer has done.  She did not
say that she sent email to people after they had asked her not to send
email, which Mr. Giwer has done.  What she clearly meant was that if
people ganged up on her to file specious complaints, her ISP would stand
by her.  She says only that nothing she has actually done is a violation
of her user agreement.  Remember, Hardwire asserted that an ISP would dump
someone _simply_ because of numerous complaints, _regardless_ of merit,
and given that context it's quite clear to me that Sara is merely saying
her ISP would not do that. 


>>> >Why should they care? Ask them! There *is* something called a user's
>>> >agreement, and Mr. Giwer was clearly getting close to violating it. THAT'S
>>> >WHY HE WAS WARNED.
>>> 
>>> According to Hardwire, this was not so - I bow to his superior
>>> knowledge. 
>>
>>Well... that about says it all. If Mr. Hardwire is your "superior
>>knowledge," then there isn't much more to say, since Mr. Hardwire is
>>astonishingly ignorant.
>Sara, you are doing it again.
>You are selectively editing and twisting the facts to serve your
>purpose. If you will do it over something as trivial as this thread -
>to what lengths will you NOT go when debating The Holocaust [TM]
>For those interested in the sneakiness of Miss Schwartz, I now
>reproduce the original in context, with its meaning restored.
>
>According to Hardwire, this was not so - I bow to his superior
>knowledge.

    I think it is reasonable to ask on what basis you call his knowledge
superior.  He has an account on one of the providers that Mr. Giwer had.


>You must argue this point with him.  I have no agreement
>whatsoever with my provider, and it is a very large one. They take the
>money and I use the service.  However, you are indulging in speculation
>again, and are deeming it fact.

    Mr. Giwer has had quite a string of ISPs.  Another Worldnet user
posted the Worldnet agreement, and Mr. Giwer did seem to be in violation.
On the other hand, I myself have no idea of what he did that could have
violated the Cybergate agreement.


>You were NOT told "he was clearly
>getting close to violating..."  only that "he had been warned."  I
>reiterate, you were only told that he had been warned, not WHY. Please
>stop your wild self-serving inventions. 

    I think it's a reasonable logical inference.  Would you bother to give
a special warning to someone not to do something they were not doing nor
showing any tendency to do?  I wouldn't.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Wed Nov 20 06:03:03 PST 1996
Article: 80571 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!news.alfred.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Cremation Rates
Date: 18 Nov 1996 01:39:05 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <56p0a9$g92@access1.digex.net>
References: <3285fa37.2511006@news.zippo.com> <3289e5a3.656176@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <328c25ed.226126@199.0.216.204> <328d50bc.16561260@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <328d50bc.16561260@news.gte.net>, Matt Giwer 
wrote:
>On Thu, 14 Nov 1996 14:02:00 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>	The method would be, for a honest study, to take core samples.

[snip]

>	And after they explain not being able to find 3000 tons of cremated
>remains at A-B they can start explaining why they can not find ten
>million uncremated bodies all over Eastern Europe.

    How much would it cost, and what purpose would it serve to search for
all of them?  (I will not even get into whether that number is correct; it
appears to be pulled out of thin air).


>Even at 1000
>bodies to a grave that it ten thousand mass graves that have never
>been found.  
>
>	They were taken outside of town shot and buried?  Fifty years ago
>that was farm land, today it is a suburb.  Yet they are not being
>found.  
>
>	One almost gets the impression there is nothing to be found.  

    One almost gets the impression that Mr. Giwer hasn't been looking.

    http://search.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?places/ukraine/serniki-excavations

    There is some more of the physical evidence that Mr. Giwer swore did
not exist.  I invite discussion of why this evidence does not support a
plan or policy of extermination. 
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Nov 20 07:08:10 PST 1996
Article: 3110 of alt.fan.ernst-zundel
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nova.thezone.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel
Subject: Re: 961115: The Tale of the City of Nanaimo.
Date: 18 Nov 1996 21:08:53 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 129
Message-ID: <56r4rl$scj@access5.digex.net>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:80322 alt.fan.ernst-zundel:3110

In article ,
E. Zundel Repost  wrote:

>November 15, 1996
>
>Good Morning from the Zundelsite:

[snip]


>Out of that, and many letters back and forth, all of which are archived for
>posterity, grew the aborted "debate" that triggered last year's cyberwar
>about Free Speech on-line - another Zundel First.

    In passing, this statement of cause and effect assumes facts not in
evidence, to use one of Greg Raven's favorite phrases.


>Ever since, we have linked with Nizkor on every one of our documents,
>stating "We do not recruit;  we convince.  Truth has no need of coercion.
>For relentless Holocaust promotion, on the other hand, contact Nizkor."

    This one is known as "poisoning the well."


>If people click on "Nizkor", it takes them straight to their page where
>Deborah Lipstadt, in "Denying the Holocaust", is quoted, for her part, as
>follows:
>
>"...truth is far more fragile than fiction...reason alone cannot protect it.=
>"
>
>We beg to differ, see?  Makes us look good by comparison, doesn't it?

    How so?  Reason cannot _alone_ determine all matters of fact.  If I
were to tell you that years ago, Ernst molested a small child, how would
reason _alone_ - unaided by evidence - prove the truth of Ernst's
innocence?


>This [refusal] made me think that Ken's handlers - or the people for whom
>he so diligently performs his shabbes-goy job at Nizkor - were shielding
>him from me.

    Ah, those shadowy "handlers."  Ain't paranoia grand?  Hate to
disappoint, but any "handlers" would have more luck herding cats.


>I got off the boat, looked up a map, and drove to what I thought was the
>Nizkor Office advertised on the Internet.  Imagine my surprise when I could
>only find a mail drop - the kind you see in most cities where frequently
>"fly-by-night" outfits operate their shady enterprises.

[snip]

>You can call me at the Zundel-Haus, and I personally answer the phone.  I
>take great care to be accessible.  You can visit me at a real location with
>an address listed in the telephone book where grown-up people live and work
>in real rooms.  Every day, I talk to people face to face - even enemies and
>opponents.  My name and full address are on my letterhead and business
>cards, in video films and TV and radio shows broadcast around the globe.
>That's how I have operated for all of the 38 years I have lived in Canada.
>That is my style - because I have nothing to hide.

    Not quite true.  Ernst has been the target of attacks, and it would be
prudent to avoid making his location public knowledge.  I believe David
Irving's recent series of lectures were held in locations not given out in
advance.  Do you and Ernst think David Irving was doing something sleazy
at those lectures, that he had something to hide? 

    I respect Ernst's decision.  But neither would I condemn a decision to
be discreet based on considerations of personal safety.  Ken has received
messages from people who do not sound like they have his best interests at
heart.  While he has not yet been the target of physical violence, who
knows what would have happened had his location been as well-known as
Ernst's?


>In my opinion and experience, only cowards, liars, con-men and crooks  hide
>behind a PO Box

    One more group: people who HATE having to fill out change-of-address
cards.  I started renting a PO Box back in college for that very reason. 
I've moved twice since coming to this area (both times to nicer homes,
thanks), but I've had the same mailing address the entire nine years.
Even my mother sends letters to the box rather than the house.


>What do you make of this story?  These Nizkor folks are allegedly into
>spreading "truth" about the Holocaust and fighting Nazi lies etc.  I wonder
>why they are hiding - or what they have to fear.

    The same thing Ernst has to fear.  There are anti-racist crazies, and
there are racist crazies.


>Frankly, I was saddened by this lesson.  I thought Ken McVay was an
>electronic free speech advocate and freedom fighter.  It seems to me now
>that he is either a prisoner in that mail box out there in Nanaimo or, more
>likely, a front man for deeper, darker things - and someone is exploiting
>and using him, fearing that in a face-to-face confrontation, Ken would not
>be able to hack it and might become a convert to the Zundel cause after
>all - which would be sad day indeed for the synagogue boys.  And for
>Nizkor!
>
>I understand Ken is an American.  I find it ironic that a man raised on
>First Amendment Rights, undoubtedly taught to cherish free speech, now
>works, or at least fronts for, an organization that has him utterly gagged.

    I guess you don't really understand in full what free speech means. 
It includes the right to keep silent, and the right not to listen.

    For my own part, I wouldn't have made the same decision Ken did.  I've
had dinner with Robert Faurisson and Ross Vicksell of CODOH.  If you're
ever in the DC area, I will be happy to meet with you if my schedule
permits.  (Let me know as far in advance as possible.)

    But Ken has his own opinions on the matter, and he's exercised his own
right of free expression.  Or shall I ask what shadowy handlers keep you
>from  speaking out in alt.revisionism?  If you can make your own decisions
about that, you are being highly insulting and patronizing for assuming
that Ken is neither capable of nor entitled to make his own decisions
about other channels of communication.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Nov 20 10:25:45 PST 1996
Article: 80622 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!news-out.internetmci.com!peerfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More lies and tortured confessions?
Date: 20 Nov 1996 10:37:10 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 77
Message-ID: <56v8j6$bou@access5.digex.net>
References: <56q24b$jrk@access5.digex.net> <3292ddbd.27798091@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <3292ddbd.27798091@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>On 18 Nov 1996 11:16:11 -0500, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>    Here are two actual excerpts.  I did not make them up.
>>

[#1 snipped]


>	Where did this come from?  Who said it?  What is the corraborating
>testimony?  Who provided this "testimony" and in what form?  What was
>the cross-examination?   

    All perfectly good questions, and I will answer them after giving
other people time to post their responses.  However, other revisionists I
have run into have seldom asked those questions in similar situations; for
the most part they have simply declared that the testimony was coerced if
a confession, or a lie if by a survivor.


>	What is the physical evidence?  Where is the gravesite and who dug
>it up and what was the forsensic determination?  Please post the
>results of the forensic examination.  

    This will tell you if there were dead people with bullet holes.  But
none of this will tell you if the "dramatic" part of the incident - the
baby crawling and being picked up by the leg - actually happened.  You're
almost certainly not going to get fingerprints off the leg.  The only
physical evidence for that sort of thing is going to be a photo, movie, or
video.  And murderers usually don't perform on camera.  Remember the
Lipstadt quote?  This too looks like a case where reason ALONE won't tell
you the truth. 


>	BTW:  Why would an infant be crawling AWAY from its presumably
>fallen mother rather than towards her?  Precoscious?  An infant in the
>crawling stage would have NO idea of what is going on, period, and
>would seek its mother.

    This is a very bizarre question.  What makes you think the infant must
have seen where the mother fell?  If it did not know, the best it could do
in seeking its mother would be to crawl in her last known direction, which
might be away from the pit.  If the infant had no memory of mother's last
known position, it would be a random direction, unless it was old enough
to have some sense (whether accurate or not) of the direction in which
"home" was.  If that random or quasi-random direction was coincidentally
away from the pit, the scene would be as described without violating any
of your notions of how infants behave.

    You assume things not at all present in the text and fail to consider
things that should be obvious as reasonable possibilities.


>>    I would like to ask the revisionists: could this be an authentic quote
>>from Heinrich Himmler or must it be a Soviet forgery?  What are your
>>reasons for your answer?
>>
>>     "[I]f your son is killed by those babies you'll cry at me, 'Why
>>     didn't you kill those babies that day?'"
>

[snip]

>	And it is an absolutely valid position that is now used by Israelis
>against Palestinians and Palestinians against Israelis.  The idea is
>simply out of place in the US but quite in place in most of the world
>including Israel.

    If you really think that sentiment is out of place in the US you are
very, very deluded.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Nov 25 06:27:59 PST 1996
Article: 80668 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'These mentally diseased people were taken into the gas chambers'
Date: 20 Nov 1996 16:32:15 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <56vtcv$673@access5.digex.net>
References:  <56tlh2$lko@juliana.sprynet.com> <56u2eh$802@access2.digex.net> <3292ed5c.31796357@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <3292ed5c.31796357@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) wrote:
>On 19 Nov 1996 23:46:09 -0500, mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <56tlh2$lko@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>>>He was told just doesn't cut it.  We need more proof than that.
>>
>>    A facsimile of Reich justice minister Gu"rtner's copy of the initial
>>order for the euthanasia program, with Hitler's HANDWRITTEN signature plus
>>Gu"rtner's own handwritten note at the bottom, may be seen opposite the
>>title page of Friedlander, Henry: "The Origins of Nazi Genocide: From
>>Euthanasia to the Final Solution" [University of North Carolina Press,
>>1995]. 
>>
>>    Does that help?
>
>	Guess what?  Should physician assisted suicide ever become
>completely legal in the US then it will become eligable for medicare
>and medicaid coverage.  And then there will be the signature of a US
>President upon a very similar bill.  And the "assisted suicide" will
>be applied to those who are wards of the state and the government will
>be making these determinations.  

    Your predictions and assertions about potential future policies in the
US are interesting, but I fail to see how they relate in any way to
the topic of historical revisionism.


>	And whatever you opinion of the social justification, abortion is
>already under that same umbrella.  In fact West Germany refused to
>make abortion legal on the grounds that in the future it might be
>judged to be immoral as was their euthanasia program earlier, just as
>you are doing now.  
>
>	If euthansia is a legal option and the person is a ward of the
>state then the state is under the legal obligation to consider
>euthansia.  That is the way governments work.

    Once again your observations and assertions about moral philosophy and
politics are off-topic by your own admission not only because they are
assertions, but because they are clearly separate topics which have their
own newsgroups.  Please stay on topic for this newsgroup. 

    Mr. Blackmore and I were discussing evidence for the historicity of
the euthanasia program.  Do you agree that the hand-signed Hitler order is
valid physical evidence for the existence of a euthanasia program under
the Nazi regime, or is there some revision of the accepted history which
should be discussed?  If so, let us discuss it.  If not, please do not try
to sidetrack the discussion onto matters outside the topic of this
newsgroup.

    Your cooperation is appreciated.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Nov 25 06:28:00 PST 1996
Article: 80678 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!wesley.videotron.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Attack on Alt.Revisionism -- Gate.Net Refuses to Help
Date: 19 Nov 1996 12:38:18 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <56sraa$e9u@access5.digex.net>
References: <558uaj$38a@panix2.panix.com> <848094046.14332.7@vertigo.combase.com> <56ra3p$5cb@access5.digex.net> <32913ca8.21488582@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <32913ca8.21488582@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) wrote:
>On 18 Nov 1996 22:38:33 -0500, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote [regarding Marduk]:
>
>>    Fine by me.  If you tell someone to stay out of your mailbox, and they
>>don't listen, you have good cause to complain to the ISP of the person
>>responsible for sending you the unwanted emails.  I think you do need to
>>ask the person directly in email first, though - I don't think it's fair
>>to hold someone responsible for reading it in a post unless they are
>>bouncing your emails unread. 
>
>	But the problem is that Marduk draws his paycheck from netcom.ca
>and therefore no one stops him, making netcom.ca complicite in the
>actions.  As you will remember, the hatesite www.babylonians.com was
>run by netcom.ca employees also.  Nothing is beneath netcom.ca as they
>are not a responsible member of the internet community.

    I wish you would make up your mind as to whether Marduk works for
Netcom or for Internet Direct.


>>    I must confess little surprised, though.  That didn't _quite_ strike
>>me as Marduk's style.
>
>	You know him?

    Only by a few email exchanges.


>As he is into harrassing phonecalls of me and my
>family what is it that you think is his style?

    I remember seeing at least one public post which appears to admit that
he really is behind the calls.  But it is interesting that you do not
allow for the possbility that he is doing just what you say you do,
feeding your paranoia (in this case, by taking advantage of something
someone else is doing).

    I would have expected either some original insulting comments or a
more concerted mailbomb attack (i.e., either a much bigger mailbomb or
many more than the ten messages Hardwire said he had to delete).  Cc's of
posts seems rather wishy-washy somehow.  But I suppose it's possible he
would do it specifically to twit Hardwire on the "no Cc:" request.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access2.digex.net Mon Nov 25 06:28:00 PST 1996
Article: 80684 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!wesley.videotron.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Information for Holocaust Revisionists
Date: 20 Nov 1996 02:30:54 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <56uc3e$ccf@access2.digex.net>
References:  <328c2b79.73530678@news.gte.net>  <328e698e.88450835@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net

In article <328e698e.88450835@news.gte.net>, Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) 
wrote:
>On Fri, 15 Nov 1996 19:37:12 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>wrote:
>>Funny thing is that I asked about this in the aviation
>>groups. One fellow who flew a Mustang in the war said that
>>he once shouted instructions to a comrade on the ground
>>(while flying), and that the other fellow had no special
>>problems hearing him.  
>
>	You are lying.  You are telling a very stupid lie.  And you know
>you telling a very stupid lie.  
>
>	And if I give you the benefit of the doubt that you were in fact
>told that then you were sent out for a left handed monkey wrench and
>he just made a fool of you.

    In other words, you have no idea what was said.  You could have gone
to DejaNews and seen what was said by searching for the keywords "pilot,"
"ground," and "Mustang."  However, you announced a conclusion without even
looking at the data.

    As suspected, you are not a scientist.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Mon Nov 25 06:28:02 PST 1996
Article: 80692 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!peerfeed.internetmci.com!panix!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel
Subject: Re: 961115: The Tale of the City of Nanaimo.
Date: 19 Nov 1996 01:52:02 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 82
Message-ID: <56rlei$dk2@access4.digex.net>
References:  <56r4rl$scj@access5.digex.net> <32913305.19021351@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:80692 alt.fan.ernst-zundel:3122

In article <32913305.19021351@news.gte.net>,
Swiss bank billions  wrote:
>>>Ever since, we have linked with Nizkor on every one of our documents,
>>>stating "We do not recruit;  we convince.  Truth has no need of coercion.
>>>For relentless Holocaust promotion, on the other hand, contact Nizkor."
>>
>>    This one is known as "poisoning the well."
>
>	That would appear to assume facts not in evidence, that there is a
>true well and a false poison.  If you are convinced of the current
>holocaust myth and can not question it, then this is not the
>conference for you. 

    It is so much fun having discussion with illiterates.

    Read the Nizkor "fallacies" feature and see if you can learn
something.


>	I suggest soc,jewish.holocaust where you can spam holocaust stories
>to your heart's content.  
>
>>>If people click on "Nizkor", it takes them straight to their page where
>>>Deborah Lipstadt, in "Denying the Holocaust", is quoted, for her part, as
>>>follows:
>>>
>>>"...truth is far more fragile than fiction...reason alone cannot protect 
>>>it."
>>>
>>>We beg to differ, see?  Makes us look good by comparison, doesn't it?
>>
>>    How so?  Reason cannot _alone_ determine all matters of fact.  If I
>>were to tell you that years ago, Ernst molested a small child, how would
>>reason _alone_ - unaided by evidence - prove the truth of Ernst's
>>innocence?
>
>	Which facts, other than religious ones such as the holocaust, can
>reason not determine?  Please be specific in your response.

    Please ask your seeing eye dog to read these posts to you.  The quote
was reason ALONE.  Again, reason ALONE.  To put it another way, reason and
nothing else.  Have you finally got it? 

    I have a fifty dollar bill in my pocket right now.

    Truth or fiction?  Reason ALONE - no peeking in my pocket for physical
evidence!

    I'm waiting. 


>Are you one of those new-age mystic types?

    You must be if you think you can tell if there's a fifty in my pocket
>from  a thousand miles away by the use of reason ALONE.


>>    Not quite true.  Ernst has been the target of attacks, and it would be
>>prudent to avoid making his location public knowledge.  I believe David
>>Irving's recent series of lectures were held in locations not given out in
>>advance.  Do you and Ernst think David Irving was doing something sleazy
>>at those lectures, that he had something to hide? 
>
>	If the locations were not given out in advance, who showed up?  How
>did anyone show up?

    I wrote imprecisely.  They were not _publicized_ in advance.  The
advertising gave contact information rather than a location.  If you
wanted to attend, you had to contact the sponsors who then got back to you
later with the location.


>	So where is the credibility of a mail box and synagogue front?

    Much better than the credibility of confessed liar Matt Giwer.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Nov 25 06:28:02 PST 1996
Article: 80698 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.ptd.net!news-out.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!peerfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: For what its worth
Date: 20 Nov 1996 11:06:59 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <56vab3$dbv@access5.digex.net>
References: <56unqt$lbf@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <56unqt$lbf@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>For the record, I want to say that I was accused by Mike Curtis 
>of distorting the text in the book, "The Belsen Trial".  This was
>an out and out lie.  What I posted was EXACT according to the
>edition I have in my possession.  Mr. Curtis was of the opinion
>that there was only ONE edition, but he is in error.

    I can confirm that there appear to be two editions of the book.  A few
days ago I was at the Holocaust Museum library and happened to leaf
through the book.  I did notice that there was a second copy on the shelf
with a different binding and smaller size.  If you give the page number I
will be happy to see which edition has it and which doesn't the next time
I am there.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Nov 25 06:28:03 PST 1996
Article: 80773 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Goebbels Talks About the Jews, II
Date: 21 Nov 1996 01:06:37 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <570rhd$r0q@access5.digex.net>
References:  <56tpfv$lko@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <56tpfv$lko@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>>   dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
>>  The Goebbels [Reich propaganda Minister] Diaries, February 14 1942
>>  [The Goebbels Diaries 1942-1943 - L.P. Lochner, Doubleday & Co., 1948, 
>>  p. 86]
>>  ----------------------------------------------------------------
>>  World Jewry will suffer a great catastrophe at the same time as
>>  Bolshevism. The Fuehrer once more expressed his determination to
>>  clean up the Jews in Europe pitilessly. There must be no squeamish
>>  sentimentalism about it. The Jews have deserved the catastrophe that
>>  has now overtaken them. Their destruction will now go hand in hand
>>  with the destruction of our enemies. We must hasten this process
>>  with cold ruthlessness.
>>   
>>  
>And?  What is this supposed to prove even if it is accurate?

    Remember, according to revisionist theory, all the Nazis were trying
to do was resettle the Jews in Russia, not kill them.  So where does the
speaker get off using words like "destruction?" 

    I guess you would claim that even if Goebbels was writing accurately,
all it proves is that this Fuehrer fellow - whoever he was - had no idea
what official Nazi policy towards the Jews was.  I mean, it's not like
Goebbels heard this bit about destruction from anyone who was of any real
importance or had any knowledge of what official government policy might
be....

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access2.digex.net Mon Nov 25 06:28:04 PST 1996
Article: 80780 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!pumpkin.pangea.ca!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: For Troy
Date: 20 Nov 1996 02:09:42 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <56uarm$c4t@access2.digex.net>
References: <130841_chuckf@rio.com_alt.revisionism> <130841_varange@crl.com_alt.revisionism>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net

In article <130841_varange@crl.com_alt.revisionism>,
Troy Varange  wrote:

>Chuck Ferree   said:

    Actually, Chuck was quoting text I wrote.

>> Unfortunately, there's a difference between denier "science" and
>> true science. The fundamental principle of true science is this:
>> any theory must take into account any relevant observable
>> facts.  That is, the theory must fit the facts; a true scientist
>> never denies facts simply because they don't fit the theory. The
>> way an honest scientist works is to make observations first, and
>> only then come up with a theory which explains what is seen. If
>> at any time the facts contradict the theory, the theory is
>> discarded as false. A new one must be formed.
>
>	Gee, why doesn't the "science" of economics, politics and
>	sociology follow the scientific theory?

    Scientific method, not scientific theory.  And would you please
provide evidence for your assertion that the disciplines _as a whole_ do
not follow the part of scientific method described above?  Remember, it is
not the same thing to give anecdotal evidence that some individual
economists or political scientists don't behave in this way.

    One key area where the above sciences fail to compare with hard
science is in the area of experimental reproducibility. 

[snip]

>> The Holocaust deniers' "scientists" are in the same position:
>> they attempt to prove that facts are not facts. In the most real
>> sense, the "science" employed in the service of Holocaust denial
>> is, in truth, the denial of every principle of the scientific
>> method - indeed, the denial of science itself.
>
>	Thank you for your essay.  It is worth reading for it's
>	hatefulness.

    How so?  I am genuinely interested in hearing just what language you
take as being hateful.

    I compared methodologies.  That's all.  Not once did I call anyone an
antisemite, Nazi, evil, immoral, or a four-letter word.  Not once did I
call for censorship or violence.  So where is the hate?  I certainly
intended none.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Nov 25 06:28:04 PST 1996
Article: 80789 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auswanderung nach Palestina
Date: 21 Nov 1996 02:03:57 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <570ust$23q@access5.digex.net>
References: <56kgue$d97$1@gruvel.une.edu.au> <56tngr$lko@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <56tngr$lko@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>   ibokor@metz.une.edu.au (ibokor) writes:
[quotations deleted]

>>  These suggest that while Jews wishing to emigrate to
>>  Palestine were given access to the minimum funds
>>  required to obtain an entry permit for settlement,
>>  it was not permitted for them or their families
>>  to take their goods, chattels and personal estates
>>  with them. As the figures I recently posted indicate,
>>  if there had been a policy of assisting Jewish emigration
>>  to Palestine, then the laws, decrees and currency regulations
>>  and restrictions enacted and/or decreed undermined that
>>  policy entirely, as the above already show.
>>  
>>  d.A.
>>  
>>  
>>>>>
>Well, I disagree with your assessment.  Whether the Jews were
>encouraged to emigrate to Palestine, Britain, America, or Madagascar,
>they were not permitted to take goods and chattels with them.  This
>has nothing to do with the fact that the nazis both desired and
>encouraged the Jews to leave Germany and Europe.

    Instead of just grandly asserting this, why don't you post some REAL
FACTS here, as someone whose name escapes me put it recently?

    Let me just run this one up the flagpole and see if anyone salutes.
Do you think it might be possible that if the Nazis had allowed the
emigrants to keep their property, that

    a) More people would have left voluntarily, and

    b) Other countries would have been more willing to take them?

[snip]

>In addition, the millions of german civilians
>compelled to leave their ancestral homelands during and after 1945 were
>also not permitted to take goods with them either.

    How, praytell, could something that happened in 1945 influence the
Nazis in 1939 to cause them to adopt a tit-for-tat policy six years before
the "tit" ever occurred?  I am REALLY interested in the answer to THAT
one. 
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Nov 25 06:28:05 PST 1996
Article: 80791 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!peerfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Himmler Updates Hitler About the Mass Murders in the East
Date: 21 Nov 1996 01:18:15 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 69
Message-ID: <570s77$ra7@access5.digex.net>
References:  <56tqg3$lko@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <56tqg3$lko@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>>   dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:

[...]

>>  Report No. 51 of Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler to Hitler about mass 
>>  executions in the east, 1942
>>  [Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals - 
>>  Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953, Vol. XIII, p. 269-272]
>>  ----------------------------------------------------------------
>>                                August  September  October  November   
>>   
>>  Prisoners executed
>>  after interrogation            2,100    1,400     1,596     2,731    
>>   .
>>   .
>>  Accomplices of guerrilla and
>>  guerrilla suspects executed    1,198    3,020     6,333     3,706    
>>   .
>>   .
>>  Jews executed                 31,246   165,282    95,735   70,948

[...]

>Well, I would ask for a full breakdown of these figures.

    Please explain how you want them broken down, and what that could
possibly prove.


>it is estimated
>that at least 1.5 million Jews fought against Germany on the allied side
>during the second world war.  The figures of the millions who fought in
>the partisan movement are vague, but they did number in the millions
>as well.

    Why do you suppose that Himmler wrote "Jews executed" and not
"partisans executed?"  Do you think that Himmler was an illiterate who did
not know the difference between the two words?  Or is it that you do not
know the difference between the two words?


>it is time to stop quoting documents out of context

    Please explain how this is out of context.


>and start supply real facts for people to examine.

    Please define "real facts," person who suggests but offers NO evidence
that the Goebbels quote about liquidation was an interpolation.  (In other
words, you offered no REAL FACTS, just your worthless speculation.  Do
you even know where the writing appears on the page - at the end, or in
the middle?)


>Might ruin your game plan but thems the breaks.

    Why not offer some real facts of your own.  If you think a document is
forged, like the inconvenient parts of the Goebbels diary, provide the
evidence - the REAL FACTS - not just your empty keyboard flapping. 

    Might ruin your game plan, but thems the breaks.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Nov 25 06:28:06 PST 1996
Article: 80827 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!peerfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 7.25 million = 19,900 a day
Date: 19 Nov 1996 09:42:10 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <56sh02$2ii@access5.digex.net>
References: <328dc016.344709@199.0.216.204> <328e9371.99173513@news.gte.net> <56rmn2$dqq@access4.digex.net> <3291649f.31719407@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <3291649f.31719407@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>On 19 Nov 1996 02:13:38 -0500, mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <328e9371.99173513@news.gte.net>, prince  wrote:
>>>On Sat, 16 Nov 1996 14:16:25 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>>
>>>>	Considering the correction, it would be 47 people a minute on
>>>>average entering into the museum, just short of one person per second.
>>>
>>>	It is amazing how quickly they can sell tickets.
>>
>>    To be sure, it is a lot faster to sell tickets when you give them away
>>for free.
>
>	Repair thee to the USHMM Website to find the price of the tickets.
>It is not a free exhibit.  I was rather surprised to find they charged
>also.  

    Matt, if you had this level of reading comprehension when you were in
college you must have paid someone to do your school work.  The following
is from the USHMM website.



Pass Information: ONLY the Permanent Exhibition requires a timed entry
pass to begin the self-guided tour of the Museum's primary exhibition.
Passes are FREE and are not required for the Museum's other exhibitions,
memorials, resources and facilities.



    Now, what part of "Passes are FREE" don't you understand? 

    There is a charge ONLY if you use PROTIX rather than going to the
museum itself.  But that fee is not charged by the museum.  It is
collected by PROTIX for their services, the same as they do for a
basketball or concert ticket when you don't feel like standing in line at
the box office.  The museum gives the tickets away for free.

    Repair thee to a remedial reading class.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Nov 25 06:28:06 PST 1996
Article: 80835 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!news-out.communique.net!demos!news.stealth.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The discussion has not advanced one bit
Date: 20 Nov 1996 12:13:36 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 136
Message-ID: <56ve80$i4o@access5.digex.net>
References: <32793cdd.441542@news.zippo.com> <329279ee.2247256@news.gte.net> <56u85r$bj3@access2.digex.net> <3293004a.36642115@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <3293004a.36642115@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) wrote:
>On 20 Nov 1996 01:23:55 -0500, mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>    Notice how in two posts the request changed from "extermination" - no
>>mention of methods or numbers - to "extermination in the context of
>>gassing" - to gassing _plus_ shooting _plus_ the number to be shot _plus_
>>whatever other unspecified details which may be contained in "remotely
>>like what is claimed to have happened." 
>
>	Sorry about that, youngster.  We are talking about 12 million
>people in this here holocaust.  The number of the gassed is down to
>around 2-3 million by "official verision" of the story.  By
>subtraction we have 9-10 million in mass graves, uncremated, all over
>eastern Europe and there is no sign of them.

    I thought we were talking about whether the Wannsee protocol contained
proof of a policy of extermination.  Not of how many, or how, just the
policy.


>	That is arithmetic.  As you folks will not accept 6 million minus
>the 3 million at Aushcwitz but sill insist upon 6 million then you
>have to put the extre 3 million some place.  The only place to put
>them is in the EG and their bullets and mass graves.
>
>	IF you have a problem with this, please articulate it without
>personal attack.

    Just to start with, you forgot the Soviet POWs who simply froze or
starved to death due to wilful neglect of their needs.  They are the
largest part of the non-Jewish total.  And you still have not figured out
that a million Jews in Auschwitz plus a million Jews by the EG plus
approximately 2 million in the Reinhard camps leaves at most two million
to account for in other locations by other means including freezing to
death as Soviet POWs (in which case I would agree that they were
double-counted, once as Jews and once as non-Jewish Soviets), or entirely
natural causes.  And who said they all had to be in eastern europe?

    I have said before that the six million figure is not only rounded up,
it is an oversimplification.  Some of those people would have been killed
if the Nazis started a war but had no special anti-Jewish program.  The
real test is what a statistician would call excess deaths.

    That's why Hilberg's five million figure for Jewish victims is much
better for this discussion.  But that leaves only a million unaccounted
for, in miscellaneous places such as Chelmno, Majdanek, Dachau, Belsen,
Buchenwald, along the roadside on the winter retreat from Auschwitz (they
would be counted as part of the Auschwitz dead even though they did not
die within the boundaries of Auschwitz), etc.

    But that is not yet the specific topic, though we may later agree to
make that the topic since it is part of the larger discussion.  Would you
agree we cannot discuss everything at once, and must start somewhere in
order to make any sense of matters?  So I would like to continue with the
Wannsee Protocol and what it does or doesn't prove, if you don't mind.  Or
if you explicitly declare that you have no further interest in discussing
the Wannsee Protocol, then we can take up statistics or cremation or
whatever else you like.  But once you start something, stick to it until
and unless we come to agreement or you explicitly state you have nothing
more to introduce by way of evidence or argument. Don't unilaterally
change topics without notice.  Do you have any problem with this?

    It is a fact that you first asked about how the Wannsee document
proved _extermination_.  It is a fact that you then started saying that it
does not prove _gassing_ and _shooting_ and numbers shot (which I agree it
does not).  It is a fact that you wandered away from the discussion of
_extermination_ proof without either agreeing with my point or offering a
counter-argument.  And it is a fact that you do that kind of thing often.

    How can facts be personal attack?

    And what does any of this have to do with your reasons for posting the
Wannsee document twelve times in eight days?


>	It is not honest to [snip] everything that I posted which you are
>failing to answer below.

    As I have already said, it is not a question of honesty, it is a
question of uselessness. I see no purpose in answering question A if you
will then reply, "But you didn't answer question B!"  That response is
entirely true and entirely irrelevant.  I will agree to answer if you will
agree not to change the subject.  Do you agree that "extermination" and
"gassing" are different subjects? 


>to pretend that you asked
>>someone to show how the Wannsee document contains proof of a plan or
>>policy of _gassing_ and _shooting_ and _numbers_ and other unspecified
>>details, when your original request was for how the Wannsee document
>>contains proof of a plan or policy of _extermination_, period, without any
>>mention of the means and numbers to be killed by those means. 
>
>	I NEVER pretended to have asked.  IT was VOLUNTEERED by a lying
>holobugger as proof.  Get your story straight.

    And in response to that alleged volunteering, you then asked _how_ it
could be legitimately interpeted as proof.

    But you failed above to state proof of WHAT?  Extermination or
gassing? It makes a difference.  And since you have said that mere
assertion is off topic, I must request that you provide an exact quote
with proper references. 


>>    If you cannot even be honest about what you asked for, I see no point
>>in going on with this charade.  
>
>	Excuse me but in your first message on this subject you were
>asking.  Now suddenly you know.

    I can only go by what you write.  If you write that you wanted to be
shown how the Wannsee Protocol provides proof of extermination, how am I
to know that when you use the word "extermination" you really mean
"gassing?"


>	This is OFF TOPIC.  ONLY the validity of the Wannsee Protocol is on
>topic.   Lets us get to it.

    If by "validity" you mean is it a forgery or not, then you have just
changed the topic again.

    Make up your mind what you want to discuss in relation to the Wannsee
protocol.  Extermination?  Gassing?  Shooting?  Numbers?  Authenticity? 
Sterilization?  Then stick to the topic until one of us agrees with the
other, or one of us explicitly states that there is no more to say
but we still disagree.  THEN we can move to another topic.

    Again, do you have a problem with this?
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access2.digex.net Mon Nov 25 06:28:07 PST 1996
Article: 80859 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!pumpkin.pangea.ca!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ihr7
Date: 20 Nov 1996 02:48:56 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <56ud58$chj@access2.digex.net>
References: <56hau8$hqb@news3.gte.net> <848252218.26512.6@vertigo.combase.com>  <848418329.8045.3@vertigo.combase.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net

In article <848418329.8045.3@vertigo.combase.com>,
Hardwire   wrote:
>Alec Grynspan wrote:
>> 
>> <*[*] [*] [Hardwire] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +>
>> <+[Re: ihr7] [17 Nov 96 07:38][*][0]*>
>> 
>>  H> Were the corpses disposed of with a method that did not use
>>  H> conventional fuel, or was Wirth, or whoever quoted Wirth at the
>>  H> time, lying or misinformed?
>> 
>> Wood was not considered a "conventional fuel". There were very few
>> vehicles that used it and that was what a country at war considered
>> "real" fuel.
>>
>The original quote doesn't mention "conventional" only "fuel" and a
>country at war would consider petroleum of any kind to be "real" fuel
>not wood.

    Actually, nobody yet has posted the _true_ original quote, and I think
it would be a very good thing if someone could dig it up.

    Remember, the ORIGINAL quote would have been in GERMAN.  And that
could make a big difference.  For example, if the word used was
"Treibstoff," according to my German dictionary it has the definition
"(motor) fuel, (rocket) fuel, propellant."  The parentheses suggest
someone might translate it simply as "fuel" - but in the original it
almost certainly cannot not mean "wood" even though in the English
translation wood _seems_ to be a real possibility. 

    Does anyone have access to the German text?
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access2.digex.net Mon Nov 25 06:28:08 PST 1996
Article: 80880 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!pumpkin.pangea.ca!news.maxwell.syr.edu!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Do you actually know what you're posting?
Date: 20 Nov 1996 01:40:48 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <56u95g$bp4@access2.digex.net>
References: <56haq0$hqb@news3.gte.net> <328eb9c3.107662611@news.gte.net> <328f9c4b.178112648@news.txdirect.net> <3291898b.88159934@news.micron.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net

In article <3291898b.88159934@news.micron.net>,
Kurt Stele  wrote:

[snip]

>"[M]ost of the memoirs and reports [of "Holocaust survivors"] are full
>of preposterous verbosity, graphomanic exaggeration, dramatic effects,
>overestimated self-inflation, dilettante philosophizing, would-be
>lyricism, unchecked rumors, bias, partisan attacks and apologies."  
>
>Jewish historian Samuel Gringauz in _Jewish Social Studies _(New
>York), January 1950, Vol. 12, p. 65. 

    Say, Kurt, why don't you and your buddy Brian Smith sit down in a
chair together and tell us what you think Sam is really saying above using
your own words?  I'd also kind of like to know which of the above
criticisms you think is the _worst_ defect of the memoirs and reports. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Nov 25 06:28:09 PST 1996
Article: 80889 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.coast.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Killfile Giwer
Date: 21 Nov 1996 11:12:53 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 75
Message-ID: <571v25$hri@access5.digex.net>
References: <56oil1$1mpk$2@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <848419819.8045.5@vertigo.combase.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <848419819.8045.5@vertigo.combase.com>,
Hardwire   wrote:
>Gord McFee wrote:
>> 
>> And in so doing, I am sure you also support your drunken "friend's" 
>> attempt to post Mr. Mcvay's personal address and phone number, knowing
>> full well that the nutsos would just love to get their hands on McVay?
>> 
>
>Nope, didn't say that I supported anything of the sort Gord.  If McVay's
>personal address and phone number are private then it's wrong to post
>them (even if in retaliation for some offense), however if Giwer came by
>them through total normal and legal means then it is simply the posting
>of public information.

    Matt said much the same thing.  However, when I pointed out that his
father's phone number and address were public information, and suggested
that I might post them under the same principle, his reaction was not
exactly "That is OK under the rule I just stated."  To see it, do a query
on DejaNews filtered on alt.revisionism for the quoted phrase "last thing
you ever."  Look for the article Matt posted on 7/23; I encourage you to
read my reply as well.

    Sure, the information Matt posted was public (and incorrect), but it
was not something most people knew how to get.  It had the appearance of
being posted simply to encourage people to conduct a harrassment campaign
against Ken (though not explicitly stated, of course), or at the very
least to increase the likelihood that it would happen, since people would
be handed the means to do it which they would not ordinarily have been
able to find on their own. 

    Marduk has posted forgeries with Matt's name and email address on
them; they are identifiable as forgeries because of the NNTP-Posting-Host
and Path: lines.  I know how Marduk (or anyone else, for that matter) can
do absolutely perfect forgeries with correct posting host and path lines.
That is publicly available information.

    Now, if I do post it, you know as well as I do that there is an
excellent chance it will be misused.  Hell, it's damn near certain.  Do
you really think that I bear no ethical responsibility if I publish the
instructions?  Are my hands clean simply because I myself never misused or
explicitly advocated the misuse of the knowledge?

    Matt was mailbombed on one occasion using a method that made it
impossible to determine who was behind it.  According to what he posted
here, he claimed it must have been done by someone with root access at the
site from which the mail originated.  He was wrong.  I know how anyone
with access to the 'net could pull the same trick, and again that
information is right out in the open, available to anyone who knows how
and where to look.

    Do you really think there is no ethical issue in my announcing here
how someone can mailbomb Giwer (or you, for that matter)  without fear of
being caught?  Would you really hold me blameless if I did publish and
someone then turned that weapon against you? 

    In other words, yes, it's the posting of public information - but I
wouldn't diminish the ethical considerations with the adverb "simply."


>After all, Matt's had his share of harassment at
>the hands of the "holohugger" nustos... quid pro quo.

    This reminds me of the joke about the mother who brought her boy into
class the first day and said to the teacher, "Now, Percy is a very
sensitive child.  So if he misbehaves, just hit the boy next to him.  That
will scare Percy quite enough!" 

    Point being, of course, that Matt has been less than perfectly
discriminate in his retaliation. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Nov 25 06:28:10 PST 1996
Article: 80943 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!node2.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More lies and tortured confessions?
Date: 21 Nov 1996 12:52:30 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <5724su$m6i@access5.digex.net>
References: <56q24b$jrk@access5.digex.net> <56trfb$lko@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <56trfb$lko@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>>   mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) writes:
>>      Here are two actual excerpts.  I did not make them up.

[snip]

>What does this refer to, may I ask?

    I asked you questions first.  Please answer them.  Then I will answer
yours.  To tell you now where these quotes came from would prejudice your
answer. 

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Nov 25 06:28:10 PST 1996
Article: 80968 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: More lies and tortured confessions?
Supersedes: <5725m4$mm2@access5.digex.net>
Date: 21 Nov 1996 17:52:41 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 106
Message-ID: <572mfp$b4q@access5.digex.net>
References: <56q24b$jrk@access5.digex.net> <3292ddbd.27798091@news.gte.net> <56v8j6$bou@access5.digex.net> <3293b446.82103263@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <3293b446.82103263@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) wrote:
>On 20 Nov 1996 10:37:10 -0500, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <3292ddbd.27798091@news.gte.net>,
>>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>>On 18 Nov 1996 11:16:11 -0500, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>>>Stein) wrote:
>>>
>>>>    Here are two actual excerpts.  I did not make them up.
>>>>
>>
>>[#1 snipped]
>>
>>
>>>	Where did this come from?  Who said it?  What is the corraborating
>>>testimony?  Who provided this "testimony" and in what form?  What was
>>>the cross-examination?   
>>
>>    All perfectly good questions, and I will answer them after giving
>>other people time to post their responses.  
>
>	Meaning that you never checked the testimony yourself and have
>unthinkingly accepted it.

    Sheer speculation on your part.  My reasons are as I stated.  If you
think I am lying you are invited to prove it.


>However, other revisionists I
>>have run into have seldom asked those questions in similar situations; for
>>the most part they have simply declared that the testimony was coerced if
>>a confession, or a lie if by a survivor.
>
>	Interestly I have not see that in this conext.

    Your lack of perception is proof of nothing.



>>>	BTW:  Why would an infant be crawling AWAY from its presumably
>>>fallen mother rather than towards her?  Precoscious?  An infant in the
>>>crawling stage would have NO idea of what is going on, period, and
>>>would seek its mother.
>>
>>    This is a very bizarre question.  What makes you think the infant must
>>have seen where the mother fell?  
>
>	The infant was forced to crawl to the pit on its own?  The mother
>would have carried it there of course, otherwise there is something
>even more bizarre that is not being told.

    Even if we ignore the possibility that the infant was carried to the
pit by big sister because Mom went out for a quart of milk, when the
shooting starts, Mom is hit and drops the baby.  How is it guaranteed that
the baby sees what has happened to Mom in the confusion?

>
>If it did not know, the best it could do
>>in seeking its mother would be to crawl in her last known direction, which
>>might be away from the pit.  If the infant had no memory of mother's last
>>known position,
>
>	The last position was with arms around the infant.  

    And of course it is a scientific law that when hit by a bullet the
mother cannot possibly drop the baby in the midst of the crowd around the
pit.


> it would be a random direction, unless it was old enough
>>to have some sense (whether accurate or not) of the direction in which
>>"home" was.  
>
>	The story says crawling.  They have no sense of home direction.
>Much too young.

    Mere assertion is off topic, remember?  Where are your scientific
journals or lab notebooks with research results establishing this point?


>If that random or quasi-random direction was coincidentally
>>away from the pit, the scene would be as described without violating any
>>of your notions of how infants behave.  
>
>	I have observed many and one in particular full time.  What is your
>knowledge of the subject? 

    Irrelevant.  My statement is based on _your_ claims, not my own.


>>    You assume things not at all present in the text and fail to consider
>>things that should be obvious as reasonable possibilities.  
>
>	Such as the infant being forced to crawl to the pit with whips and
>gun butts?

    Such as big sister having charge of the baby.  Such as Mom dropping
the baby when hit by the first bullet.

    As for the rest, you will find out in due time.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Nov 25 06:28:11 PST 1996
Article: 80995 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!news-out.internetmci.com!peerfeed.internetmci.com!super.zippo.com!zdc-e!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'These mentally diseased people were taken into the gas chambers'
Date: 21 Nov 1996 18:43:08 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 125
Message-ID: <572pec$ds4@access5.digex.net>
References:  <3292ed5c.31796357@news.gte.net> <56vtcv$673@access5.digex.net> <329405f5.103013814@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <329405f5.103013814@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) wrote:
>On 20 Nov 1996 16:32:15 -0500, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <3292ed5c.31796357@news.gte.net>,
>>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) wrote:
>>>On 19 Nov 1996 23:46:09 -0500, mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P.
>>>Stein) wrote:
[refer to prior articles for euthanasia order discussion]

>>    Your predictions and assertions about potential future policies in the
>>US are interesting, but I fail to see how they relate in any way to
>>the topic of historical revisionism.
>
>	It rather clearly relates using the euthanasia program as evidence
>of something evil regarding the people running the program.

    The testimony was posted without comment.  On what basis do you claim
it was used as evidence of a claim of "evil?"  As someone or other is fond
of saying, you are very foolish to read what is not there.


>If current trends continue, the Nazis will have been only a few years
>ahead of the US in the same matter.  Revision is not only establishing
>what really happened but reviewing the opinions about what happened.  
>
>	As anyone knows from politics, the kindest act, even helping a
>little old lady across the street, can be portrayed as in some manner
>evil.

    Your dilettante philosophizing, as Samuel Gringauz would call it, is
still off-topic.


>>    Once again your observations and assertions about moral philosophy and
>>politics are off-topic by your own admission not only because they are
>>assertions, but because they are clearly separate topics which have their
>>own newsgroups.  Please stay on topic for this newsgroup. 
>
>	Excuse me, but if you will follow this thread back it started with
>an implicite assertion that there was something evil about the nazi
>euthansia program.  You really should follow the thread before you
>jump in with an opinion upon relevancy to the conference.

    How was there an implicit assertion when the testimony was posted
without comment?  Once again you are fantasizing meanings which cannot be
found in the post.


>>    Mr. Blackmore and I were discussing evidence for the historicity of
>>the euthanasia program.  Do you agree that the hand-signed Hitler order is
>>valid physical evidence for the existence of a euthanasia program under
>>the Nazi regime, or is there some revision of the accepted history which
>>should be discussed?  If so, let us discuss it.  If not, please do not try
>>to sidetrack the discussion onto matters outside the topic of this
>>newsgroup.  
>
>	Of course it is evidence

    Thank you.  That is real progress.

>but since it was a fuehrerstadt, it says
>nothing in particular about Hitler any more a king signing a decree
>says something about the king.   It speaks to the wisdom of the
>advisors in both cases.

    I am not interested in discussing _here_ whether euthanasia is good or
evil.  If I wanted to do that, I would go to talk.philosophy.misc, since
that is the proper newsgroup for such a discussion.

    I have no idea why Dr. Keren posted that testimony; unlike you I do
not claim mindreading abilities.  However, the euthanasia program is
evidence about Hitler in one respect.  It is evidence of the willingness
of Hitler (and his advisors) to use active killing as a way of getting rid
of people the state regarded as useless.  Assuming you agree, we can then
see if there is anything interesting in the relationship between this fact
and other facts or theories. 


>>    Your cooperation is appreciated.
>
>	And of course you have it completely.  I was simply aiding you in
>putting it into the proper context, and attempting to avoid wasting so
>much time in the "pure nazi evil" context where this has always wound
>up in the past.

    You have my permission to give me a verbal bonk me over the head if I
go in that direction.  But please wait until I do it rather than assuming
I am going to do it.  Otherwise, _you_ will be the one wasting time here,
since _you_ will have brought the subject into the discussion.

    Now, here is where _I_ want to go with it.  We have established that
the Nazi regime accepted in principle the idea that it was acceptable to
kill people considered of no value.  This is something to take into
consideration when evaluating "revisionist"  claims that the Nazis were
only interested in deporting Jews who were not and never would be capable
of work.  Intending to kill mental patients and cripples while planning to
keep alive elderly Jews seems a bit inconsistent, does it not? 

    Furthermore, there is a testimony that in order to carry out this
policy of killing, they used gas chambers.  Now, the physical evidence
itself does not mention methods, but at least the testimony has some
grounding in physical evidence.  There is other evidence to corroborate
that there was a euthanasia program.  I'll look around for some other
physical evidence of gas chambers specifically for the euthanasia program,
but while I'm doing that, perhaps you would like to tell me if you have
any contrary evidence that some other killing method was actually used for
this euthanasia program. 

    I will rush to say that there is an immense amount more to consider. 
But at least we have something that even Matt Giwer agrees is physical
evidence, and which reveals a certain inconsistency between a Nazi policy
we accept as part of the historical record, and what "revisionists" claim
was Nazi policy towards the Jews who would have been called "useless
eaters." 

    I know that in the past you have made much of inconsistencies, so I
thought I'd point one out to you to see what you make of it.  Now, if you
wish to argue that there is no inconsistency of course you are invited to
make your case.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Nov 25 06:28:12 PST 1996
Article: 80996 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!news-out.internetmci.com!peerfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hitler Talks About the Jews, I
Date: 21 Nov 1996 18:53:59 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <572q2n$eis@access5.digex.net>
References:  <329333c0.6908027@news.zippo.com>  <32949a6c.10104771@news.zippo.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <32949a6c.10104771@news.zippo.com>,
Chris Carpenter  wrote:
>On Thu, 21 Nov 1996 00:27:13 -0500, jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy)
>wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>>(yawn) and here's a quote from Hitler twelve years before that:
>>
>>"Once I really am in power, my first and foremost task will be the
>>annihilation of the Jews.

>(yawn to u2)   and here's one two years b4 that:
>
> "The German revolution is the achievement of the Jews; the
>Liberal Democratic parties  have a great number of Jews as their
>leaders, and the Jews play a predominant role in the high government
>offices."
>(The Jewish Tribune, July 5, 1920)

    That's nice, but unfortunately I fail to understand how the quote you
produced in any way shows emnity towards Germany.  Do you believe that the
liberal democratic parties had destruction of Germany and/or Germans as
their goal?  If not, then Jamie is still winning the "who first said they
were going to kill who" contest.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Mon Nov 25 06:28:13 PST 1996
Article: 81077 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!node2.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 7.25 million = 19,900 a day
Date: 19 Nov 1996 02:13:38 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <56rmn2$dqq@access4.digex.net>
References: <328dc016.344709@199.0.216.204> <3297cbda.3357070@199.0.216.204> <328e9371.99173513@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article <328e9371.99173513@news.gte.net>, prince  wrote:
>On Sat, 16 Nov 1996 14:16:25 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>	Considering the correction, it would be 47 people a minute on
>>average entering into the museum, just short of one person per second.
>
>	It is amazing how quickly they can sell tickets.

    To be sure, it is a lot faster to sell tickets when you give them away
for free.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Nov 25 06:28:13 PST 1996
Article: 81150 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!news.bconnex.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Let's think about Walendy
Date: 19 Nov 1996 17:55:15 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <56tdsj$4hm@access5.digex.net>
References: <565v2j$ohh@Vir.com>  <56r6n2$nop@Vir.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article ,
Jamie McCarthy  wrote:
>My statement was exaggerated ever-so-slightly to make a point.  I've
>seen Walendy's work, and he alleges forgery and fraud in countless
>cases, even trivial photographs inconsequential to the Holocaust.
>Walendy has lost whatever credibility he might have had, by insisting
>that even the photographs of Nazis shaving off rabbis' beards, or
>students laughing at their Jewish fellows, were faked.

    I discussed this with Al Baron a while back.  Walendy does not give
enough consideration to the possibility of poor reproduction and printing. 
I found one picture in Walendy - a copy of the infamous pit burning photo
taken by the resistance at Birkenau - which had some serious differences
with the book he claimed to have got it from.  So by his own rules of
evidence we must conclude that Walendy faked the photo in his own book
since it did not agree with his alleged source.

    There is another picture where he makes much of the fact that a
swastika on a helmet is not crisp, and produces a genuine photo for
comparison.  But if you look at the genuine photo and check the helmet of
the person next to the one Walendy uses as his example of correctness, it
is about the same as the alleged fake.  It is apparently either slightly
out of focus or badly printed.  But by Walendy's rules of evidence we must
conclude that his supposed genuine photo is also a fake.

    Now, the non-crisp swastika photo was clearly retouched, and it does
appear that it was done with the intent to make the Germans look more
menacing.  But I think it is based on a true photo, and is not an outright
invention as Walendy claims.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Mon Nov 25 06:28:14 PST 1996
Article: 81469 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!peerfeed.internetmci.com!dciteleport.com!phase2.worldnet.att.net!hunter.premier.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: R. Blackmore, public library
Date: 23 Nov 1996 23:07:18 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <578hlm$80v@access1.digex.net>
References: <55qv5m$bfn$1@gruvel.une.edu.au> <19961122210900.QAA07715@ladder01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <19961122210900.QAA07715@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
  wrote:
>Why is anyone interested in where these books are kept?
>A little book-burning party, perhaps?

    I am interested only because they would appear to require more storage
space than the average house provides.  But perhaps Mr. Blackmore occupies
a mansion.  His claim of owning 45-60,000 volumes seemed rather
farfetched otherwise.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Mon Nov 25 06:28:15 PST 1996
Article: 81517 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!mr.net!news.sgi.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Goebbels Talks About the Jews, II
Date: 23 Nov 1996 23:29:43 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <578ivn$8hp@access1.digex.net>
References:  <56tpfv$lko@juliana.sprynet.com> <570rhd$r0q@access5.digex.net> <32947ce3.133459566@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <32947ce3.133459566@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) wrote:
>On 21 Nov 1996 01:06:37 -0500, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <56tpfv$lko@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>>>And?  What is this supposed to prove even if it is accurate?
>>
>>    Remember, according to revisionist theory, all the Nazis were trying
>>to do was resettle the Jews in Russia, not kill them.  So where does the
>>speaker get off using words like "destruction?" 
>
>	Now just who said that?  The only thing I have heard is that IF the
>Wannsee document is true then the objective was to settle them EAST of
>Russia.  Why do you not get the story straight?

    EAST of Russia?  In Japan?  Where in the Wannsee Protocol do you find
that?

    Actually, I should have said "the occupied Soviet Union" rather than
"Russia" - technically, they were (supposedly) looking at areas of
non-Russian SSRs.

    But I think I have the story much straighter than you do. 


>>    I guess you would claim that even if Goebbels was writing accurately,
>>all it proves is that this Fuehrer fellow - whoever he was - had no idea
>>what official Nazi policy towards the Jews was.  I mean, it's not like
>>Goebbels heard this bit about destruction from anyone who was of any real
>>importance or had any knowledge of what official government policy might
>>be....
>
>	1)  That was his testimony and official statement on the matter.

    Buzzer there.  That was not his testimony.  That was his personal
diary.  Get it right or don't bother.


>	2)  No evidence was introduced at Nuremberg that contradicted his
>testimony showing that he did know about any such thing.

    Let's see, you are suggesting he told the truth at Nuremberg - where
his life was on the line - and wrote incriminating lies into his personal
diary, lies contradicting what his own ministry was putting out?

    He may not have known the details.  But in his personal diary, not
subject to any torturers, he recorded that those not able to work would
have to be liquidated.  That contradicts revisionist claims that
resettlement was the policy.  Sorry about that.



>	So what is your point in this?  That the communists produced
>witnesses?  They were very good at that.  

    When you understand what is being discussed you are welcome to join in
the discussion.  But offering irrelevant comments based on total ignorance
of the nature of the evidence being discussed is a waste of everyone's
time.

    Unless, of course, your goal is to obfuscate and confuse.  Then your
strategy makes sense.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access2.digex.net Mon Nov 25 06:28:16 PST 1996
Article: 81541 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.usenet.kooks,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Killfile Giwer
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Date: 24 Nov 1996 11:24:26 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <579srq$rn3@access2.digex.net>
References: <56oil1$1mpk$2@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <32956df2.1950881@news.gte.net> <3295c958.1087243@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <329821f7.59029270@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.usenet.kooks:31281 alt.revisionism:81541

In article <329821f7.59029270@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) wrote as
Freddie :
>On Fri, 22 Nov 1996 15:52:40 GMT, John.Morris@UAlberta.CA (John
>Morris) wrote:
>
>>In <32956df2.1950881@news.gte.net>, chief@rabbi.com (Nizkor's handler)
>>[Note: this is also Matt Giwer] wrote:
>>
>>>On 21 Nov 1996 11:12:53 -0500, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>>>Stein) wrote:
>>
>>>>    Matt was mailbombed on one occasion using a method that made it
>>>>impossible to determine who was behind it.  According to what he posted
>>>>here, he claimed it must have been done by someone with root access at the
>>>>site from which the mail originated.  He was wrong.  I know how anyone
>>>>with access to the 'net could pull the same trick, and again that
>>>>information is right out in the open, available to anyone who knows how
>>>>and where to look.
>>
>>>	It if fascinating that I never said one word about that publically.
>>>How did you know?  Sort of makes you the source of it, does it not?
>>>Thank you, jew scum.  You had to brag didn't you?  
>>
>>What nonsense! I remember the very public discussion quite clearly. If
>>I thought anyone doubted that you are a liar, I would bother to look
>>it up in the archive of your posts.
>
>	It must be you to lie so well.  And if I were you I would not
>bother to look it up either as it would incriminate you.

    Just to test the precision of my memory of this nonexistent public
discussion, I went to DejaNews, did a power search filtering on
alt.revisionism, and searched for articles containing the three words
Hebrew, root, and gopher.  Got a hit on one of Matt's articles dated May
14 in the supposedly nonexistent public discussion on my first try.  It
wasn't the first one in the thread - and I knew it would not be - but I
think it should suffice to prove both the existence of the discussion and
the accuracy of my memory regarding what was said in that discussion. 


>After all,
>you know how to do it, it happened and I did not make it public.

    DejaNews says Matt is either lying or suffering from early-onset
Alzheimer's. 
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access2.digex.net Mon Nov 25 06:28:16 PST 1996
Article: 81567 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!news-lond.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Killfile Giwer
Followup-To: misc.test
Date: 24 Nov 1996 11:08:09 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 64
Message-ID: <579rt9$r2c@access2.digex.net>
References: <56oil1$1mpk$2@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <848419819.8045.5@vertigo.combase.com> <3292cd2d.23557277@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net

In article <3292cd2d.23557277@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) wrote as
Treblinka Veggie Garden :
>On Tue, 19 Nov 1996 06:11:21 -0500, Hardwire
> wrote:
>
>>Gord McFee wrote:
>>> 
>>> And in so doing, I am sure you also support your drunken "friend's" 
>>> attempt to post Mr. Mcvay's personal address and phone number, knowing
>>> full well that the nutsos would just love to get their hands on McVay? 
>>
>>Nope, didn't say that I supported anything of the sort Gord.  If McVay's
>>personal address and phone number are private then it's wrong to post
>>them (even if in retaliation for some offense), however if Giwer came by
>>them through total normal and legal means then it is simply the posting
>>of public information.  After all, Matt's had his share of harassment at
>>the hands of the "holohugger" nustos... quid pro quo.
>
>	I used a technique that is incomprehensible to these people.  It is
>called "whois" so you can see it is well beyond them.  What they did
>not like was my finding his milnet listing which was deleted as soon
>as I made it public.

    According to Ken, this is because it was obsolete and should have been
deleted long ago.  Do you have any evidence to prove him wrong?  I thought
not.

[paranoid ramblings, unobjectionable material, and things not worth
commenting on snipped for space]


>	And all of this time ... hell, do a web search on McVay and you
>will find an interview with some emag name "eye" and you will find him
>specifically claiming his is an independent operation.  
>
>http://www.interlog.com/eye/Misc/Alt.revisionism/rev.htm 
>
>for example.  To quote...
>
>Revisionists often assert McVay secretly gets operating funds from
>Jews.
>
>"I don't," McVay says. "The hard-drives are spread out on a table with
>a Canadian Tire fan blowing right at them. I can't afford to replace
>things, if it breaks, it's gone. However, I'm upfront -- if I get
>support money, I'll take it, Jewish or not. The fact that a Jewish
>organization would offer several grand to help wouldn't change the
>value of the historical data." He'd like to put it all on CD-ROM.  
>
>	Ending the quote here we find that while his is being "up front" in
>desiring support money, he is a synagogue.

    Ending the quote here obscures the fact that the date of the interview
was over two years ago.  The context of the date is important, because it
precedes the help from the synagogue in collecting donations.

    What Matt has done is to take something out of context for the purpose
of creating a false impression, which is a libel and tortable according to
legal expert Matt Giwer. 
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access2.digex.net Mon Nov 25 06:28:17 PST 1996
Article: 81582 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Forgery (Re: Chief French Rabbi on War & Christians)
Date: 24 Nov 1996 10:55:25 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <579r5d$qbp@access2.digex.net>
References: <32939b7b.1055164@news.zippo.com> <3295c749.3576441@news.zippo.com>  <3297ae29.11136428@news.zippo.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net

In article <3297ae29.11136428@news.zippo.com>,
Chris Carpenter  wrote:
>On Sat, 23 Nov 1996 12:38:49 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>wrote:
>
>>ccarp@concept.net (Chris Carpenter) writes:
>>
>>["quote" of "French Rabbi"]

[Note: source was given as 1859, Rabbi Reichorn - no book, newspaper,
etc.]


>>I repeat: do you have any evidence whatsoever that he
>>said this? I don't have to prove he didn't say it. You
>>have to prove he did say it. You're making the claim.

>I made no claim. I simply posted a quote.  You do it all the time.
>We both list our sources or URL's  as the case may be.
>If you can, please show me a post where I did not provide a source
>for a quote.

    You don't appear to understand what a source is.  If that quote is
authentic, unless you were there personally in 1859 listening to Rabbi
Reichorn you must have obtained that quote from somewhere else.  Since I
think I am safe in assuming that you are not a Frenchman who is at least
137 years old, that leaves us with option #2.

    If that "somewhere else" was the Nile URL, _they_ must have obtained
it from somewhere else.  The object is to track it back either to a
checkable trustworthy secondary source which mentions the primary source,
or (better) the primary source itself - the book, newspaper article,
lecture along with the name of the person recording that quote, or
whatever.

    Perhaps an example will help you to understand the issue better. 
Let's see if I can find some evidence for the Holocaust - why, look, it's
a Hitler quote!

    "I order the physical destruction of the Jews by poison gas." - A. 
Hitler, 1942. 

    The Holocaust should now be proved to the satisfaction of the
revisionists, since I have produced a Hitler order.  What?  You don't
believe me?  You think I made that up?  I'm afraid I don't understand.  I
gave a _source_, didn't I? 

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access2.digex.net Mon Nov 25 06:28:18 PST 1996
Article: 81618 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Goebbels Talks About the Jews, I
Date: 24 Nov 1996 09:41:15 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <579mqb$nfr@access2.digex.net>
References:  <56tpe7$lko@juliana.sprynet.com> <570nn1$dva$12@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <32a13c89.8156631@news.redshift.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net

In article <32a13c89.8156631@news.redshift.com>,   wrote:

>>:>>   dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
>>:>>  The Goebbels [Reich propaganda Minister] diaries, March 27, 1942: 
>>:>>  [The Goebbels Diaries 1942-1943 - L.P. Lochner, Doubleday & Co., 1948, 
>>:>>  p. 147-148]
>>:>>  -----------------------------------------------------------
>>:>>  Beginning with Lublin, the Jews in the General Government 
>>:>>  [Nazi occupied Poland] are now being evacuated eastward. The procedure 
>>:>>  is a pretty barbaric one and not to be described here more definitely. 
>>:>>  Not much will remain of the Jews. On the whole it can be said that about 
>>:>>  60 per cent of them will have to be liquidated whereas only 40 per cent 
>>:>>  can be used for forced labor.

>Again, noone should assign any credibility to this statement unless
>and until we see the original german, translated by a German expert in
>German. Otherwise, it's just compost.
>
>Thinking Man

    Does Thinking Man think there's a possibility that Doubleday & Co. 
assigned the translation job to a French amateur in Chinese? 

    How does Thinking Man think that he would gain any benefit from seeing
the original German unless he was a German expert himself?

    I think Thinking Man needs to do a little more thinking.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Mon Nov 25 06:28:19 PST 1996
Article: 81663 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'These mentally diseased people were taken into the gas chambers'
Date: 24 Nov 1996 16:18:24 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <57ae30$t5e@access1.digex.net>
References:  <329405f5.103013814@news.gte.net> <572pec$ds4@access5.digex.net> <32964b3b.52430910@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <32964b3b.52430910@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) writing as
Nizkor's handler  wrote:
>On 21 Nov 1996 18:43:08 -0500, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>    The testimony was posted without comment.  On what basis do you claim
>>it was used as evidence of a claim of "evil?"  As someone or other is fond
>>of saying, you are very foolish to read what is not there.  
>
>	And in this same thread is exactly that allegation.  It appears the
>buggers are intent upon fronting the "evil" explanation by calling it
>murder.   

    The person who made that statement is not the same person who posted
the document.  And you omitted the context of the remark.  But let us
ignore that since we agree it is off-topic.

    Do you have any comment on the substantive issues I raised which have
nothing to do with issues of good and evil, only the factual matter of
consistency of Nazi policy?  If yes, please give me your on-topic
response.  If not, let's drop the matter and move on to other on-topic
issues.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Mon Nov 25 06:28:19 PST 1996
Article: 81707 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!newsfeed.luth.se!news.luth.se!newsfeed.sunet.se!news00.sunet.se!sunic!mn6.swip.net!solace!news.stealth.net!news.idt.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Lanzmann, kaputt!
Date: 23 Nov 1996 23:43:14 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <578jp2$8tl@access1.digex.net>
References:  <56u00k$4ju@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <56u00k$4ju@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>>   karlpov@access5.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power) writes:
>>  Jean-Francois Beaulieu  writes:
>>  > If he had sue the millionaire Lanzmann, the last one would have claim:
>>  > Oh yeah? and you stated yourself that you didn't want to be recognize,
>>  > to bad that I filmed you. 
>>  
>>  Excuse me, but who said Lanzmann was a millionaire? In what currency?
>
>Perhaps you can tell us what he is worth?

    Excuse me, but you are always demanding that Dr. Keren, Jamie
McCarthy, etc. provide proof and proof of the proof and proof of proof of
proof.

    The millionaire claim was Mr. Beaulieu's.  His claim, his burden of
proof.  But all of a sudden you think it is Charles Power who bears the
burden of finding out the facts, not Mr. Beaulieu.

    If I didn't know what an honest fellow you were, I would swear I was
seeing some hypocrisy on your part, hmn?

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Nov 25 06:28:20 PST 1996
Article: 81783 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!dciteleport.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Scientific evidence of Holocaust missing
Date: 25 Nov 1996 01:28:48 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <57beb0$9ds@access5.digex.net>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article ,
Orest Slepokura  wrote:
>                   Scientific evidence of Holocaust missing
>
>TORONTO (CP) - No scientific reports prove Jews were exterminated in Nazi
>gas chambers, a Holocaust scholar conceded Thursday at the trial of Ernst
>Zundel.

    I wonder, Mr. Slepokura, if you can find one _scientific_ report
proving that anyone was killed by enemy action at the D-Day landing.  The
truth may shock you, but it would appear that all reports of deaths that
day, on both sides, were made for the most part by unqualified personnel. 
Even those death reports filled out by doctors appear to have been made
based on the reports of eyewitnesses (who, as we know, are quite
unreliable) with no autopsy done, let alone ballistics tests.

    Was any scientific testing done on the bullets which killed the
Americans to see if they were really of German manufacture?  Without that
scientific report, for all we know there were a lot of personal quarrels
that day which were settled by taking advantage of the cover provided by
the invasion. 

    
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Nov 25 06:28:21 PST 1996
Article: 81794 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tezcat!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: FINALLY!!! AN HONEST DEFINITION OF "REVISIONISM"!!!
Date: 25 Nov 1996 02:24:56 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <57bhk8$bed@access5.digex.net>
References: <32793cdd.441542@news.zippo.com> <32913e28.21872178@news.gte.net> <32915f69.46896475@news.uniserve.com> <848409513.5240.1@vertigo.combase.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <848409513.5240.1@vertigo.combase.com>,
Hardwire   wrote:
>Hilary Ostrov wrote:
>> 
>> On Tue, 19 Nov 1996 05:56:46 GMT, in <32913e28.21872178@news.gte.net>,
>> 
>> the troll from gte.net wrote:
>> 
>> >Revisionism is a process, not a fact.
>> >
>> 
>> Thank you for this acknowledgement that "revisionism" has nothing to
>> do with facts (and therefore has nothing to do with history of the
>> Holocaust.)  And for confirming that it is nothing more than a process
>> by which deniers attempt to disguise the bigotry, hypocrisy  and
>> ignorance that underlie their hatred of Jews and/or Israel - to which
>> you have so often given voice.
>> 
>
>Umm errr Hillary, I believe the intent was to imply that revisionism is
>a process whereby facts are obtained and not a blind acceptance of
>anything simply stated as fact.

    Actually, true revisionism is a process whereby existing evidence (and
possibly some newly-discovered evidence as well) are re-evaluated and a
new interpretation or explanation of the evidence formed. 

    My observation of the kind of revisionism that goes on here is that
for the post part, it is a process where there is a blind _rejection_ of
anything offered as evidence by calling it "Soviet forgery."  No forensic
evidence is usually offered; indeed, usually no evidence is offered that
the document in question came from the Soviets. 

    In extreme cases, people like Jeff Roberts continue to assert that the
Diary of Anne Frank was a forgery by her father, despite the fact that
extensive forensic testing was done on the diary, and it was found to be
genuine.  (Roberts knows of the testing and does not mention it in his
articles.  This counts as a lie in my book, and my book uses a very strict
defintion.) 
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Mon Nov 25 07:17:53 PST 1996
Article: 3122 of alt.fan.ernst-zundel
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!peerfeed.internetmci.com!panix!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel
Subject: Re: 961115: The Tale of the City of Nanaimo.
Date: 19 Nov 1996 01:52:02 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 82
Message-ID: <56rlei$dk2@access4.digex.net>
References:  <56r4rl$scj@access5.digex.net> <32913305.19021351@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:80692 alt.fan.ernst-zundel:3122

In article <32913305.19021351@news.gte.net>,
Swiss bank billions  wrote:
>>>Ever since, we have linked with Nizkor on every one of our documents,
>>>stating "We do not recruit;  we convince.  Truth has no need of coercion.
>>>For relentless Holocaust promotion, on the other hand, contact Nizkor."
>>
>>    This one is known as "poisoning the well."
>
>	That would appear to assume facts not in evidence, that there is a
>true well and a false poison.  If you are convinced of the current
>holocaust myth and can not question it, then this is not the
>conference for you. 

    It is so much fun having discussion with illiterates.

    Read the Nizkor "fallacies" feature and see if you can learn
something.


>	I suggest soc,jewish.holocaust where you can spam holocaust stories
>to your heart's content.  
>
>>>If people click on "Nizkor", it takes them straight to their page where
>>>Deborah Lipstadt, in "Denying the Holocaust", is quoted, for her part, as
>>>follows:
>>>
>>>"...truth is far more fragile than fiction...reason alone cannot protect 
>>>it."
>>>
>>>We beg to differ, see?  Makes us look good by comparison, doesn't it?
>>
>>    How so?  Reason cannot _alone_ determine all matters of fact.  If I
>>were to tell you that years ago, Ernst molested a small child, how would
>>reason _alone_ - unaided by evidence - prove the truth of Ernst's
>>innocence?
>
>	Which facts, other than religious ones such as the holocaust, can
>reason not determine?  Please be specific in your response.

    Please ask your seeing eye dog to read these posts to you.  The quote
was reason ALONE.  Again, reason ALONE.  To put it another way, reason and
nothing else.  Have you finally got it? 

    I have a fifty dollar bill in my pocket right now.

    Truth or fiction?  Reason ALONE - no peeking in my pocket for physical
evidence!

    I'm waiting. 


>Are you one of those new-age mystic types?

    You must be if you think you can tell if there's a fifty in my pocket
>from  a thousand miles away by the use of reason ALONE.


>>    Not quite true.  Ernst has been the target of attacks, and it would be
>>prudent to avoid making his location public knowledge.  I believe David
>>Irving's recent series of lectures were held in locations not given out in
>>advance.  Do you and Ernst think David Irving was doing something sleazy
>>at those lectures, that he had something to hide? 
>
>	If the locations were not given out in advance, who showed up?  How
>did anyone show up?

    I wrote imprecisely.  They were not _publicized_ in advance.  The
advertising gave contact information rather than a location.  If you
wanted to attend, you had to contact the sponsors who then got back to you
later with the location.


>	So where is the credibility of a mail box and synagogue front?

    Much better than the credibility of confessed liar Matt Giwer.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Mon Nov 25 07:35:05 PST 1996
Article: 81828 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Chief French Rabbi on War & Christians
Date: 24 Nov 1996 16:11:18 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <57adlm$svg@access1.digex.net>
References: <32939b7b.1055164@news.zippo.com>  <3295c749.3576441@news.zippo.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <3295c749.3576441@news.zippo.com>,
Chris Carpenter  wrote:
>On Thu, 21 Nov 1996 07:12:27 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>wrote:
>
>>ccarp@concept.net (Chris Carpenter) writes:
>>
>># "Wars are the Jews harvest, for with them we wipe out the
>># Christians and get control of their gold. We have already
>># killed 100 million of them, and the end is not yet."
>>#
>># (Chief Rabbi in France, in 1859, Rabbi Reichorn).
>>
>>Gee whiz. I suppose you have a source?
>Yes.
>>When did he say it?
>1859
>>Where did he say it?
>France
> >Any evidence whatsoever he said it?
>Yes
>
>>Isn't it amazing how these nazi-boys reject all evidence
>>proving Nazi atrocities, including the Nazis' own words
>>in their testimonies, documents, recordings etc, but will
>>accept the above as "evidence"?
>
>Hold it there buckwheat, three points:
>	1. Don't call me nazi-boy, doesn't fit .
>	2. I do not "reject_ all_ evidence proving Nazi atrocities..."
>
>  	3. I accept the above  not as "evidence" ,  but as a piece of
>	     the puzzle.

    Well, let me counterfeit a few thousand pieces of the puzzle about the
events of 1940-45, and then what will you do with them?

>You drifted again, the case in point is: a statement by Reichorn, a
>French Rabbi in the year 1859. 
>>
>>I repeat my question: can you present any proof whatsoever
>>that this Rabbi (if he existed), said what you allege he said?
>I gave you names, dates, and places.  Go verify, or disprove.

    A woman named Amy Smith said in 1992 in Chicago that Chris Carpenter
raped her.  You've got a name, a date, and a place.  Tell me your strategy
for verifying or disproving. 


>>We have seen forgeries like this before (the Franklin
>>forgery, for instance).
>Are you sure its a forgery?  How do you know?
>Go research Rabbi Reichorn and get back to me.

    Library of Congress has no subject or author entry for "Reichorn." 


>>The ball is in your court, nazi-boy.
>>-Danny Keren.
>No, the ball is in your court - either accept his statement or
>prove he did not say it.

    Prove you did not rape Amy Smith.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Nov 26 06:25:24 PST 1996
Article: 81972 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!tezcat!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Wetzel Writes Lohse About the 'Gassing Apparatuses'
Date: 25 Nov 1996 21:35:03 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <57dl0n$91q@access5.digex.net>
References:  <56tvah$4ju@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <56tvah$4ju@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>
>
>  Letter from Dr. Erhard Wetzel to Reichskommissar Lohse, October 25, 1941
>  [Hitler and the Final Solution - G. Fleming, University of California
>  Press, 1984, p. 70]
>  ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>  With regard to my letter of 18 October 1941, please be informed that
>  Oberdiensleiter [Chief Executive Officer] Brack from the Fuehrer's
>  Chancellory has stated his readiness to assist in the construction of
>  the necessary accommodations and gassing apparatuses, [...]

>I take it you have the response to this letter?

    It did not appear to survive.  You know that if it did, and it said
"Absolutely not!  We are not murderers!" that some revisionist would have
produced it long ago.  But if it said, "Sure, great idea, let's wipe 'em
out,"  how would that affect your position?

    The document is as it is, and you must take the evidence as you find
it.  Tell me, if you really think that negative answers came back to all
these letters you want to see the answers to, how did all these people get
such a wrong idea in the first place that what they were proposing would
be perfectly acceptable? 


>BTW, what ever happened to Kallmeyer?

    Offhand, I don't know.  Why do you expect others to do your
research for you?

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Nov 26 07:48:10 PST 1996
Article: 30934 of alt.usenet.kooks
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!node2.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.usenet.kooks,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Attack on Alt.Revisionism -- Gate.Net Refuses to Help
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks,alt.test
Date: 13 Nov 1996 20:11:32 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <56drk4$nng@access5.digex.net>
References: <558uaj$38a@panix2.panix.com> <847634956.358.0@perdrix.demon.co.uk>  <847905697.2404.12@vertigo.combase.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.usenet.kooks:30934 alt.revisionism:79710

In article <847905697.2404.12@vertigo.combase.com>,
Hardwire   wrote:
>Dene Bebbington wrote:
[>>Fergus McClelland wrote:]
>
>> >Miss Schwartz does not state what she means in a way that I can know
>> >for certain. She may be referring to a flag of truce. She may be
>> >referring to a surrender.
>> 
>> Or she may be referring to the KKK...
>> 
>
>Now that's an interesting point, considering that I wouldn't expect
>someone of British origin and who is currently residing in Britain to
>understand a concept that is purely American in origin.

    This is a highly amusing comment, considering that Dene Bebbington's
address is dene@bebbo.demon.co.uk. 


>If you fall on your face as well as your arguements do you must be one
>UGLY son-of-a-bitch.

    As juvenile as Giwer, but only one misspelling and no neologisms. 
More alcohol is obviously still required.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access2.digex.net Tue Nov 26 07:48:11 PST 1996
Article: 31281 of alt.usenet.kooks
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.usenet.kooks,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Killfile Giwer
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Date: 24 Nov 1996 11:24:26 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <579srq$rn3@access2.digex.net>
References: <56oil1$1mpk$2@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <32956df2.1950881@news.gte.net> <3295c958.1087243@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <329821f7.59029270@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.usenet.kooks:31281 alt.revisionism:81541

In article <329821f7.59029270@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) wrote as
Freddie :
>On Fri, 22 Nov 1996 15:52:40 GMT, John.Morris@UAlberta.CA (John
>Morris) wrote:
>
>>In <32956df2.1950881@news.gte.net>, chief@rabbi.com (Nizkor's handler)
>>[Note: this is also Matt Giwer] wrote:
>>
>>>On 21 Nov 1996 11:12:53 -0500, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>>>Stein) wrote:
>>
>>>>    Matt was mailbombed on one occasion using a method that made it
>>>>impossible to determine who was behind it.  According to what he posted
>>>>here, he claimed it must have been done by someone with root access at the
>>>>site from which the mail originated.  He was wrong.  I know how anyone
>>>>with access to the 'net could pull the same trick, and again that
>>>>information is right out in the open, available to anyone who knows how
>>>>and where to look.
>>
>>>	It if fascinating that I never said one word about that publically.
>>>How did you know?  Sort of makes you the source of it, does it not?
>>>Thank you, jew scum.  You had to brag didn't you?  
>>
>>What nonsense! I remember the very public discussion quite clearly. If
>>I thought anyone doubted that you are a liar, I would bother to look
>>it up in the archive of your posts.
>
>	It must be you to lie so well.  And if I were you I would not
>bother to look it up either as it would incriminate you.

    Just to test the precision of my memory of this nonexistent public
discussion, I went to DejaNews, did a power search filtering on
alt.revisionism, and searched for articles containing the three words
Hebrew, root, and gopher.  Got a hit on one of Matt's articles dated May
14 in the supposedly nonexistent public discussion on my first try.  It
wasn't the first one in the thread - and I knew it would not be - but I
think it should suffice to prove both the existence of the discussion and
the accuracy of my memory regarding what was said in that discussion. 


>After all,
>you know how to do it, it happened and I did not make it public.

    DejaNews says Matt is either lying or suffering from early-onset
Alzheimer's. 
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Nov 26 08:07:34 PST 1996
Article: 82033 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Attack on Alt.Revisionism -- Gate.Net Refuses to Help
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 25 Nov 1996 17:26:33 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <57d6ep$qp5@access5.digex.net>
References: <32966c00.347689@news.demon.co.uk> <57678r$1vg@news.enter.net> <3298b17b.162426636@news.micron.net> <3299aa9b.17515582@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <3299aa9b.17515582@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) wrote as
Freddie :
>On Sun, 24 Nov 1996 20:35:16 GMT, kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt Stele)
>wrote:
>
>>On 23 Nov 1996 06:57:31 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>>	I posted both 18 Purdon's 5504 (criminal harassment) and 18 
>>>Purdon's 2710 (ethnic intimidation) which defines both the crime and, by 
>>>setting the degree of the crime, the punishment.  Was there anything
>>>you did not understand in those statutes? 
>
>>We understood them perfectly:  more ADL/Jewish thoughtcrime laws.
>
>	Purdon?  Purdon who?  On the odd chance he means 18 USC 2710
>
>§ 2710. Wrongful disclosure of video tape rental or sale records
>
>	The USC only goes up to 235, according to the search engine at
>Cornell.

    If Matt Giwer really knew how to use a search engine, he would know
what Purdon's was.  All he had to do was enter "Purdon's" into Altavista.
First entry contains the clear explanation.

    Other useful explanations are contained at:

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html


>	Looks like the Mogen David is getting to the kowardly kike.
>Purdon's must be the local liquor store.

    I've been trying to discuss some revisionism with Mr. Giwer, but he
seems more interested in delivering personal attacks.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Nov 28 07:03:06 PST 1996
Article: 82062 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A dastardly plan
Date: 25 Nov 1996 21:17:01 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <57djut$80t@access5.digex.net>
References: <32986c70.2791233@news.zippo.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <32986c70.2791233@news.zippo.com>,
Chris Carpenter  wrote:
>"We must realize that our party's most powerful weapon is
>racial tension. [...]

> (Jewish Playwright Israel Cohen, A Radical Program For  The Twentieth
>Century)

    No date, no indication if this is a magazine article or what, no page.


>Also entered into the Congressional Record on June 7, 1957, by Rep.
>Thomas Abernathy).

    How strange that the Library of Congress catalog has no entry which
seems to match this Israel Cohen.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Nov 28 07:03:07 PST 1996
Article: 82168 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!peerfeed.internetmci.com!metro.atlanta.com!news.he.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel
Subject: Re: 961124: What happened to the missing Jews?
Date: 26 Nov 1996 18:56:44 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 122
Message-ID: <57g03s$ast@access5.digex.net>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:82168 alt.fan.ernst-zundel:3144

In article ,
E. Zundel Repost  wrote:

[snip]

>In December of last year the Anti-Defamation League ran an ad in the New
>York Times that asked a simple question:  "What happened to the missing
>Jews?"  That is an emotional question.  You see that ad.  You are left with
>that thought.

    No, it's a factual question.  Revisionists say there are (or at least
were at one time) about four or five million live Jews running around for
years after everyone else believed dead.  If you can ask where the ashes
are, I can ask where those live Jews went and how they got there.


>What you don't know is that THAT question is precisely what Revisionists
>ask - for which they have been hounded, beaten, spat at, vilified, charged,
>tried, jailed - and even killed.  Why is it "criminal" to want to know why
>the numbers are shrinking and shrinking - like a balloon that has been
>pricked?

    Except that they have not - not the total numbers.  There have been
revisions at individual sites.  And the Auschwitz deflation did not affect
the Jewish total, as the four million claim was _people_, not Jews alone.



[discussion of additional death registers deleted]

>That is what "Holocaust" Revisionism has achieved!

    You are overblowing things.  On the shelves of the Holocaust Museum
library are copies of previously-discovered death registers.  It wasn't
revisionists who produced those.  It wasn't the theory or method of
revisionism which produced the documents.

    As you yourself admit below (and I thank you for having the honesty to
acknowledge the argument), the registers only cover _registered_
prisoners.  So the new documents do not change anyone's understanding from
what the previously-known death registers showed.  So where is the
wonderful new achievement?

    Let me ask you: quite aside from the issue of whether anyone was
gassed, do you seriously believe that NOT ONE person died of natural
causes on the trains?  How do you think they were handled?  Do you think
they assigned prisoner numbers to dead bodies so they could be included in
those death registers?  Can you find unnumbered or "name unknown"
prisoners in the death registers?


>Not that it has been easy.  Revisionist first had to find the original,
>seemingly "lost" Death Registers at Auschwitz.  Once found, Revisionist
>researchers had to get access to the information recorded in them.  Only
>with access could more detailed and meaningful analyses be done.  And this
>holds true for every camp and every event of World War II - without
>exception!
>
>Please note as well that this number is not written in stone.  It has been
>challenged by many - including some Revisionists.  The argument is made
>that new arrivals to Auschwitz, slated for immediate execution, were simply
>not recorded and were marched straight from the trains that brought them to
>this concentration camp into the so-called "ovens."
>
>That is a claim hard to believe for anyone who knows the compulsive method
>of German bureaucracies - especially during the Hitler years where every
>pencil and every brick of coal for heating were recorded.

    You completely overlook the fact that your own theory - that most of
the missing Jews were alive somewhere after the war - suffers from the
same gaping documentary hole. We know that hundreds of thousands of Jews
were sent to Auschwitz from Hungary in 1944. We know that they are _not_
recorded as Auschwitz prisoners - there aren't enough registration records
to cover them.  And we do not have any records of them being transported
out.

    I know that some _were_ transported into Auschwitz and then out again
as workers without any registration at Auschwitz.  I know this from the
testimony of survivors who had this experience, and I said so publicly as
soon as I found this anecdotal evidence.

    But what happened to those not able to work and not registered - the
aged and the children?  As with the unknown and unknowable number of
workers described above, your compulsive German bureaucracy seems to have
gotten a bit sloppy.  So far no records have been found for them - either
dead OR alive.  If the absence of records is significant evidence, then it
must be significant in all cases, not just when it helps the revisionist
argument. There is such a thing as intellectual consistency. 


>Anybody who
>understands the workings of the Nazi bureaucracy would wonder at this
>expensive, cumbersome and insufficient method of carting Jews all over
>Europe.

    Anybody who understands military matters would wonder at the resources
wasted on this expensive, cumbersome, and inefficient practice of rounding
up Jews - even toddlers and arthritic nonagenarians - in the middle of a
desperate war on two fronts.

    So would you say this is evidence that Auschwitz never even existed
and nobody was ever sent there?


>Had genocide indeed been the goal, it would have been much easier
>to shoot them with a 10 cent bullet - as the Soviets did to the Poles at
>Katyn.  It would have saved a lot of trouble and expense when  transport
>was scarce and needed to re-supply the troops.

    Again, same argument applies to the transport wasted on infants and
geriatric cases.  Do you deny that this apparently illogical transport
activity took place?  If you do not, then "it makes no sense" is not a
very persuasive argument.  We have already accepted that they did things
that made no sense.

[remainder deleted as it is not relevant to the points I want to make]

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Nov 28 07:03:08 PST 1996
Article: 82178 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!winternet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What did you say that rabbi's name was?
Date: 26 Nov 1996 09:42:53 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <57evld$67o@access5.digex.net>
References: <32939b7b.1055164@news.zippo.com>  <3295c749.3576441@news.zippo.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <3295c749.3576441@news.zippo.com>,
Chris Carpenter  wrote:
>On Thu, 21 Nov 1996 07:12:27 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>wrote:
>>Gee whiz. I suppose you have a source?
>Yes.
>>When did he say it?
>1859
>>Where did he say it?
>France
> >Any evidence whatsoever he said it?
>Yes
>

[snip]

>>We have seen forgeries like this before (the Franklin
>>forgery, for instance).
>Are you sure its a forgery?  How do you know?
>Go research Rabbi Reichorn and get back to me.

    One would think that the Chief Rabbi of France would be important
enough to merit an entry in the Jewish Encyclopedia and Encyclopedia
Judaica.  However, neither work has an entry for "Reichorn."  Are you
quite sure you have the name right?

    I also looked up the playwright Israel Cohen.  While there is a
British Zionist of that name who lived about the right time, there is no
mention of his being a playwright.  Again, something seems to be seriously
wrong with your source.

    Now _you_ go research "Rabbi Reichorn" and Israel Cohen and get back
to _me_.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Nov 28 07:03:09 PST 1996
Article: 82184 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!wesley.videotron.net!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Morgenthau says waste Germany
Date: 25 Nov 1996 14:15:32 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <57cr8k$a9l@access5.digex.net>
References: <329471fb.6889517@news.zippo.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <329471fb.6889517@news.zippo.com>,
Chris Carpenter  wrote:
> "Germany must be turned into a waste land, as happened there
>during the 30 year War." 
>
> (Das Morgenthau Tagebuch, The Morgenthau Diary, p. 11).

    And the fact that Germany is now the agricultural third-world nation
that Morgenthau wanted proves once again how tightly Da Joos control
everything. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Nov 28 07:03:09 PST 1996
Article: 82198 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!news.sgi.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More lies and tortured confessions?
Date: 25 Nov 1996 01:54:51 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <57bfrr$a8v@access5.digex.net>
References: <56q24b$jrk@access5.digex.net> <56trfb$lko@juliana.sprynet.com> <32942c9f.261005785@news.micron.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <32942c9f.261005785@news.micron.net>,
Kurt Stele  wrote:
>On 20 Nov 1996 02:47:07 GMT, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>
>>>       "[S]eeing a baby ... crawling away from a ditch already filled with
>>>       dead and dying villagers, [he] seized the child by the leg, threw it
>>>       back in the pit, and shot it."
>
>Actually this is the kind of stuff Jews do to Palestinians. 

    Actually this is the kind of stuff Americans do to Vietnamese.  Both
quotes concern the My Lai massacre.  The second quote was from Lt.
Calley's own book, "Body Count."
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Thu Nov 28 07:03:10 PST 1996
Article: 82214 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!pumpkin.pangea.ca!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hitler Talks About the Jews, I
Date: 24 Nov 1996 16:28:26 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <57aelq$8h@access1.digex.net>
References:  <329333c0.6908027@news.zippo.com>  <32949a6c.10104771@news.zippo.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <32949a6c.10104771@news.zippo.com>,
Chris Carpenter  wrote:
> "The German revolution is the achievement of the Jews; the
>Liberal Democratic parties  have a great number of Jews as their
>leaders, and the Jews play a predominant role in the high government
>offices."
>(The Jewish Tribune, July 5, 1920)

    Let me give you some more information about source citation.  The
purpose is to enable someone to know exactly what publication you are
talking about.  Looking at the Library of Congress catalog reveals that
there are a fair number of newspapers called "The Jewish Tribune."  What
you gave above is almost good enough, but you should really give a city
with that.  Once you do, that becomes a valid and checkable citation -
it's precise enough to enable someone to find the paper if it exists, or
discover that no such paper existed if it doesn't.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Nov 28 07:03:11 PST 1996
Article: 82240 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Hitler Talks About the Jews, I
Supersedes: <57cqsh$9qf@access5.digex.net>
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 25 Nov 1996 14:11:53 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <57cr1p$9v4@access5.digex.net>
References:  <3298f48c.179597535@news.micron.net> <3298BBA1.7187@rio.com> <3299c533.24323755@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <3299c533.24323755@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) wrote under the name R :
>On Sun, 24 Nov 1996 21:18:25 +0000, Chuck Ferree 
>wrote:
>>No orders were ever issued to kill the Jews? You really believe that? 
>
>	Professor Hilberg says there were no order issued.  Do you disagree
>with him?  What do you know that he doesn't?  Certainly he would like
>to include it in his writings if you can find that order for him.

    Eichmann, in his diaries, seems to think there was an order issued.
What do you know that he doesn't?
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Nov 28 07:03:12 PST 1996
Article: 82344 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.texas.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.stealth.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: **************** G I W E R   R U L E S  ***************************************************
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 27 Nov 1996 16:56:26 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <57idea$1pt@access5.digex.net>
References: <32793cdd.441542@news.zippo.com> <328ff3f9.59257648@news.gte.net> <92od8x239jk.fsf@condor.eecs.umich.edu> <329a6994.65269904@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:82344 alt.usenet.kooks:31344

In article <329a6994.65269904@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
R  wrote:
>On 25 Nov 1996 02:42:39 -0500, Karl Kluge
> wrote:

[snip]

>>And discussing Holocaust revisionism is almost certainly going to involve
>>rebutting it's arguments, which is almost certainly going to involve
>>presenting the evidence that the Holocaust occured. "Discussion of" is
>>not the same as "cheerleading for".  
>
>	No it is not involved in that.  It is about discussing revisionism,
>not rebutting it.

[snip]

>Witnesses without facts have already been rejected.  

    Until and unless you produce the CFD which resulted in the creation of
alt.revisionism, your claim about what is and is not on topic for this
newsgroup is merely the assertion of a witness without facts.  Under your
own rules, you are therefore rejected. 

    Sorry about that.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Nov 28 07:03:12 PST 1996
Article: 82359 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!pumpkin.pangea.ca!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!EU.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: R. Blackmore, public library
Date: 26 Nov 1996 17:57:56 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <57fslk$4t7@access5.digex.net>
References: <55qv5m$bfn$1@gruvel.une.edu.au> <57d3u2$9k6@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <329c9c40.60942729@news.srv.ualberta.ca> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article ,
Rajiv K. Gandhi  wrote:
>In article <329c9c40.60942729@news.srv.ualberta.ca>,
>John.Morris@UAlberta.CA (John Morris) wrote:
>
>> In <57d3u2$9k6@bell.maths.tcd.ie>, dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell)
>> wrote:
>> 
>> >John.Morris@UAlberta.CA (John Morris) writes:
>> >>Actually, we are terribly curious about his claim that he has more
>> >>books in his personal possession than some branch libraries in major
>> >>urban centres. Aren't you the least bit curious about where the man
>> >>could possibly store 145,000 volumes? I know I am.
>
>Oddly enough, the law library at the local university, a two storey
>complex, hols just about 150,000 books. This serves a law school with 325
>students, not to mention 30 faculty members, ancillary staff, and the legal
>community in this city (upwards of 800 lawyers.)  With that in mind, the
>lying-troll-bellinger would necessarily have to rent space in a warehouse
>to store his alleged collection of books.

    Except that Mr. Blackmore only claimed 45[,000]-60,000 volumes, not
*1*45,000.  So it would "only" require a one-story building.

    Posted/emailed.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Nov 28 09:11:54 PST 1996
Article: 3144 of alt.fan.ernst-zundel
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!peerfeed.internetmci.com!metro.atlanta.com!news.he.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel
Subject: Re: 961124: What happened to the missing Jews?
Date: 26 Nov 1996 18:56:44 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 122
Message-ID: <57g03s$ast@access5.digex.net>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:82168 alt.fan.ernst-zundel:3144

In article ,
E. Zundel Repost  wrote:

[snip]

>In December of last year the Anti-Defamation League ran an ad in the New
>York Times that asked a simple question:  "What happened to the missing
>Jews?"  That is an emotional question.  You see that ad.  You are left with
>that thought.

    No, it's a factual question.  Revisionists say there are (or at least
were at one time) about four or five million live Jews running around for
years after everyone else believed dead.  If you can ask where the ashes
are, I can ask where those live Jews went and how they got there.


>What you don't know is that THAT question is precisely what Revisionists
>ask - for which they have been hounded, beaten, spat at, vilified, charged,
>tried, jailed - and even killed.  Why is it "criminal" to want to know why
>the numbers are shrinking and shrinking - like a balloon that has been
>pricked?

    Except that they have not - not the total numbers.  There have been
revisions at individual sites.  And the Auschwitz deflation did not affect
the Jewish total, as the four million claim was _people_, not Jews alone.



[discussion of additional death registers deleted]

>That is what "Holocaust" Revisionism has achieved!

    You are overblowing things.  On the shelves of the Holocaust Museum
library are copies of previously-discovered death registers.  It wasn't
revisionists who produced those.  It wasn't the theory or method of
revisionism which produced the documents.

    As you yourself admit below (and I thank you for having the honesty to
acknowledge the argument), the registers only cover _registered_
prisoners.  So the new documents do not change anyone's understanding from
what the previously-known death registers showed.  So where is the
wonderful new achievement?

    Let me ask you: quite aside from the issue of whether anyone was
gassed, do you seriously believe that NOT ONE person died of natural
causes on the trains?  How do you think they were handled?  Do you think
they assigned prisoner numbers to dead bodies so they could be included in
those death registers?  Can you find unnumbered or "name unknown"
prisoners in the death registers?


>Not that it has been easy.  Revisionist first had to find the original,
>seemingly "lost" Death Registers at Auschwitz.  Once found, Revisionist
>researchers had to get access to the information recorded in them.  Only
>with access could more detailed and meaningful analyses be done.  And this
>holds true for every camp and every event of World War II - without
>exception!
>
>Please note as well that this number is not written in stone.  It has been
>challenged by many - including some Revisionists.  The argument is made
>that new arrivals to Auschwitz, slated for immediate execution, were simply
>not recorded and were marched straight from the trains that brought them to
>this concentration camp into the so-called "ovens."
>
>That is a claim hard to believe for anyone who knows the compulsive method
>of German bureaucracies - especially during the Hitler years where every
>pencil and every brick of coal for heating were recorded.

    You completely overlook the fact that your own theory - that most of
the missing Jews were alive somewhere after the war - suffers from the
same gaping documentary hole. We know that hundreds of thousands of Jews
were sent to Auschwitz from Hungary in 1944. We know that they are _not_
recorded as Auschwitz prisoners - there aren't enough registration records
to cover them.  And we do not have any records of them being transported
out.

    I know that some _were_ transported into Auschwitz and then out again
as workers without any registration at Auschwitz.  I know this from the
testimony of survivors who had this experience, and I said so publicly as
soon as I found this anecdotal evidence.

    But what happened to those not able to work and not registered - the
aged and the children?  As with the unknown and unknowable number of
workers described above, your compulsive German bureaucracy seems to have
gotten a bit sloppy.  So far no records have been found for them - either
dead OR alive.  If the absence of records is significant evidence, then it
must be significant in all cases, not just when it helps the revisionist
argument. There is such a thing as intellectual consistency. 


>Anybody who
>understands the workings of the Nazi bureaucracy would wonder at this
>expensive, cumbersome and insufficient method of carting Jews all over
>Europe.

    Anybody who understands military matters would wonder at the resources
wasted on this expensive, cumbersome, and inefficient practice of rounding
up Jews - even toddlers and arthritic nonagenarians - in the middle of a
desperate war on two fronts.

    So would you say this is evidence that Auschwitz never even existed
and nobody was ever sent there?


>Had genocide indeed been the goal, it would have been much easier
>to shoot them with a 10 cent bullet - as the Soviets did to the Poles at
>Katyn.  It would have saved a lot of trouble and expense when  transport
>was scarce and needed to re-supply the troops.

    Again, same argument applies to the transport wasted on infants and
geriatric cases.  Do you deny that this apparently illogical transport
activity took place?  If you do not, then "it makes no sense" is not a
very persuasive argument.  We have already accepted that they did things
that made no sense.

[remainder deleted as it is not relevant to the points I want to make]

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Nov 28 10:01:21 PST 1996
Article: 31344 of alt.usenet.kooks
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.texas.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.stealth.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: **************** G I W E R   R U L E S  ***************************************************
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 27 Nov 1996 16:56:26 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <57idea$1pt@access5.digex.net>
References: <32793cdd.441542@news.zippo.com> <328ff3f9.59257648@news.gte.net> <92od8x239jk.fsf@condor.eecs.umich.edu> <329a6994.65269904@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:82344 alt.usenet.kooks:31344

In article <329a6994.65269904@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
R  wrote:
>On 25 Nov 1996 02:42:39 -0500, Karl Kluge
> wrote:

[snip]

>>And discussing Holocaust revisionism is almost certainly going to involve
>>rebutting it's arguments, which is almost certainly going to involve
>>presenting the evidence that the Holocaust occured. "Discussion of" is
>>not the same as "cheerleading for".  
>
>	No it is not involved in that.  It is about discussing revisionism,
>not rebutting it.

[snip]

>Witnesses without facts have already been rejected.  

    Until and unless you produce the CFD which resulted in the creation of
alt.revisionism, your claim about what is and is not on topic for this
newsgroup is merely the assertion of a witness without facts.  Under your
own rules, you are therefore rejected. 

    Sorry about that.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Thu Nov 28 11:47:00 PST 1996
Article: 82475 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nazi Mass Murder of Insane and Mentally Retarded Russians
Date: 24 Nov 1996 16:01:41 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 94
Message-ID: <57ad3l$sn9@access1.digex.net>
References: <574ib1$29c@access5.digex.net> <574t4m$7n8@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <574t4m$7n8@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>   mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) writes:
>  In article ,
>  Daniel Keren  wrote:
>  Extract from the Diary of General Halder, September-November 1941
>  [Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals - 
>  Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953, Vol. X, p. 1195-1196]

[quote snipped for space]


>>      Since Mr. Blackmore has such difficulty figuring out what is shown
>> by these documents, I suppose I had better lend a hand. 
>  
>>     Revisionists such as Greg Raven have asserted that the mass murder of
>> Jews during the invasion of Russia was due to security concerns, that
>> the Jews were identified as a partisan threat.
>>  
>>     I am not aware that Mr. Raven has ever offered any explanation of how
>>  old women and little children were regarded as a partisan threat, that
>>  they too should have been killed.  And in other documents posted here, it
>>  is seen that in the execution reports that Jews are listed as a separate
>>  category on a report where guerillas and suspected guerillas have their
>>  own listing.
>>  
>>      The above document is further evidence that contrary to revisionist
>>  claims, Nazi killing operations in occupied Russia had motivations other
>>  than security concerns.  It is difficult to see how the feebleminded could
>>  be considered a partisan threat.  Furthermore, it shows that the occupiers
>>  felt secure enough that they could divert resources to such a nonessential
>>  task.
>>  

>Would it be asking too much to post the entire extract
>from Halder's diary?

    At this point, I think that if you wish to allege that someone is
being intellectually dishonest by cutting out exculpatory material, it is
your job to show that such material exists.

    You suggested that it is Charles Power who ought to do the work of
finding out Lanzmann's net worth to provide the evidence about Mr. 
Beaulieu's unsupported assertion that he is a millionaire.  You suggested
that it is Danny Keren who is responsible for disproving Chris Carpenter's
improperly sourced quote.  If I fabricate a quote from you saying you were
a child molester, how would you go about proving you never said that?

    Dr. Keren gave the full, checkable source.  Yet you demand he cater to
your whims to show you more to prove he _didn't_ give you something out of
context.  Sorry, some hypocrisy is rather apparent here.

    When I am given a checkable source, I check it.  If I find it stands
up I say so.  If I find it doesn't, I say so.  After a few proven
distortions, _then_ I might start asking about any ellipses and other
edits before checking references.  But unless you have evidence that Dr. 
Keren has excised relevant material from any of his quotes which changes
their interpretation, at this point it's your job to check references when
you are given them.  If you _do_ have evidence he has distorted something
by selective quotation or editing, you are invited to present that
evidence. 


>Also, I can scarcely regard an excerpt
>from Halder's diary as being a document which proves an
>argument unqualifiedly.

    STRAWMAN ALERT: Nobody said this document was unqualified proof.  It
is a piece of evidence.  Many pieces of evidence converge on a conclusion. 


>I would need to see documents
>where this policy was implemented on all fronts and the
>reasons why.

    We can only work with the documents which have survived.  Are you
saying that if there was one front where the information was completely
missing, you would declare that you could safely ignore the evidence?  And
what would you do with the reason why?  Do you seriously believe the
reason is security?  If it is explicitly stated as being eugenic policy
only, what difference does that make considering that the Jews were
considered an inferior enemy race? 

    You seem to be engaged in the strategy of demanding a piece of
evidence, then demanding a piece of evidence to corroborate the first
piece, then another to corroborate the second, and so on.  That is valid
up to a point, but I do have to ask: how many trees _do_ you need to see
before you permit yourself to become aware that there might be a forest in
the vicinity?

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Nov 30 11:29:02 PST 1996
Article: 82494 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.bc.net!info.ucla.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israeli Court Values Palestinian Life at One-Third of a Cent
Followup-To: talk.politics.mideast
Date: 27 Nov 1996 18:46:21 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <57ijsd$6f8@access5.digex.net>
References: <19961119192600.OAA28167@ladder01.news.aol.com> <3293f07b.245607380@news.micron.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:82494 talk.politics.mideast:83840

In article <3293f07b.245607380@news.micron.net>,
Kurt Stele  wrote:
>On 19 Nov 1996 19:24:13 GMT, ivanpv@aol.com wrote:
>
>>          An amazing article on Israeli justice appeared in the  
>>"Washington Post," Nov. 19, 1996, p. A-15,  by Barton Gellman:
>>

[snip]

>>	"'One agora!' said Bassam Eid, founder of the Palestinian Human
>>Rights Monitoring Group.  'It means the government wants to show how much
>>a Palestinian person's life is worth.  Its message is very clear: 'This is
>>how cheap you are for us'"
>
>Ah, vhat the hell.  If the Self-Chosen of God kill a goyim, who cares?

    I do.

    The original poster omitted the part of the article where the Israeli
explanation was given.  However, it does not really help.  Either the
court should have found that they acted appropriately, or that they did
not.  If it was determined that they acted appropriately, there should
have been no penalty at all.  If it was determined that they overreacted,
they should have been given the same punishment as an ordinary police
officer who gives in to panic and shoots an innocent civilian.  If it was
determined that they opened fire with malice and premeditation, they
should be tried for murder, not negligent homicide.

    It is difficult to see how there can be peace while this sort of
injustice exists.

    However, Matt Giwer has told us that we must stay on topic, so we will
have to move this discussion elsewhere.  Followups set to
talk.politics.mideast.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Nov 30 11:29:03 PST 1996
Article: 82533 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!nntp.portal.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel
Subject: Re: 961124: What happened to the missing Jews?
Date: 27 Nov 1996 16:21:30 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 227
Message-ID: <57ibcq$hs@access5.digex.net>
References:  <57g03s$ast@access5.digex.net> <329c6142.19986932@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:82533 alt.fan.ernst-zundel:3150

In article <329c6142.19986932@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name of
RBS  wrote:
>On 26 Nov 1996 18:56:44 -0500, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article ,
>>E. Zundel Repost  wrote:
>>
>>[snip]
>>
>>>In December of last year the Anti-Defamation League ran an ad in the New
>>>York Times that asked a simple question:  "What happened to the missing
>>>Jews?"  That is an emotional question.  You see that ad.  You are left with
>>>that thought.
>>
>>    No, it's a factual question.  Revisionists say there are (or at least
>>were at one time) about four or five million live Jews running around for
>>years after everyone else believed dead.  If you can ask where the ashes
>>are, I can ask where those live Jews went and how they got there.
>
>	Perhaps those missing Jews are the same place the other 26 million
>missing Europeans are?  Remember 31 million total untraceable after
>the war.  Why make an issue of a much smaller number?  
>
>	But since you claim to know what happened to those jews, where are
>both the ashes and the mass graves for the bodies of those not
>cremated?  And then get on to the six million non-jews that were
>supposed to be part of this holocaust.  Roughly 10 thousand mass
>graves are out there to be found some place.

    How many will you accept as a reasonable sample?

    As a start, did you look at the archaeological report for which I
posted the URL? 



>>>What you don't know is that THAT question is precisely what Revisionists
>>>ask - for which they have been hounded, beaten, spat at, vilified, charged,
>>>tried, jailed - and even killed.  Why is it "criminal" to want to know why
>>>the numbers are shrinking and shrinking - like a balloon that has been
>>>pricked?
>
>>    Except that they have not - not the total numbers.  There have been
>>revisions at individual sites.  And the Auschwitz deflation did not affect
>>the Jewish total, as the four million claim was _people_, not Jews alone.
>
>	Good sir, in 1945 the story was that nine million jews had been
>executed at Auschwitz (before Birkenau was even part of the equation,
>that is.)

    Gee, I never heard _that_ story.  Got a source for it?


>It is noted that at that time, despite the Russian number,
>Jews held tenaciously to their six million despite it being only a WAG
>pulled out of Kaballistic mysticism.

    It was at worst a SWAG pulled out of pre- and postwar population
figures.


>That being the reason that it
>will continue to be used, regardless of any facts uncovered, such as
>the Auschwitz death books.
>
>	The number has been decreasing every few years since 1945 and the
>cry is usually, "no reputable historian," the problem with that is, no
>reputable historian has ever blessed any number, neither of them.   
>
>>[discussion of additional death registers deleted]
>
>	Why?  They are the ONLY reliable record of substance and all

    Not quite.  Records of people shipped to the camp must also be taken
into account.


>increases beyond it must be built upon them.  Everything else is
>speculation, attempting to support the mystical six with six zeros as
>from the six points of the Star of David.  
>
>>>That is what "Holocaust" Revisionism has achieved!
>>
>>    You are overblowing things.  On the shelves of the Holocaust Museum
>>library are copies of previously-discovered death registers.  It wasn't
>>revisionists who produced those.  It wasn't the theory or method of
>>revisionism which produced the documents.
>
>	The lists developed by Yad Vashem are after the fact, compiled by
>those who insist upon the mystical number, they total only 3 million
>and include those from the 31 million missing category without
>justification other than their being jewish.

    Please explain how this relates to anything I said.  I did not say one
word about the Yad Vashem lists.  As should have been obvious to anyone
literate in the English language, I was talking about the incomplete
Auschwitz death registers which were known before the ones Ms. Rimland
seems to be talking about that fill in the gaps for the missing months.


>	Note that for such mystical types, a missing jew is a jew executed
>by the Nazis, inclusion on the list does not require evidence of
>death.

    Cremation makes it kinda hard to identify the remains of any
individual missing Jew.



>>    As you yourself admit below (and I thank you for having the honesty to
>>acknowledge the argument), the registers only cover _registered_
>>prisoners.  So the new documents do not change anyone's understanding from
>>what the previously-known death registers showed.  So where is the
>>wonderful new achievement?
>
>	And where is the evidence of the unregistered?  Despite the fine
>stories, that there were "unregistered" is no more than a story.

    Wrong.  There are survivors who were on the trains to Auschwitz who
never got an Auschwitz number.


>	Evidence you demand?  Our friendly neighborhood Sonderkommandos
>were registered YET the story goes that they were worked for a few
>weeks and then gassed themselves.  Yet so such deaths are recorded.

    Um, just how would you expect those deaths to be recorded?  What would
you be looking for in the books that would tell you this one was an SK
member?


>	So now, in addition to establishing there were unregistered you
>must established that the cause of death of some of registered were
>falsified.

    I do have an idea where to go look for such evidence.  I might just be
able to oblige you, though it will take some time to do the research I
have in mind.


>And both of those will require a paper trail of orders to
>do so.

    Try telling your superior officer that you refuse to follow a verbal
order, it must be put in writing.  Let us know what happens. 


>At the least you will have to establish the paper trail of
>"code word" orders that can be traced to these actions.

    Again, why?  There are no such things as verbal orders?


>>    Let me ask you: quite aside from the issue of whether anyone was
>>gassed, do you seriously believe that NOT ONE person died of natural
>>causes on the trains?  How do you think they were handled?  Do you think
>>they assigned prisoner numbers to dead bodies so they could be included in
>>those death registers?  Can you find unnumbered or "name unknown"
>>prisoners in the death registers?
>
>	That is what a detailed examination of the death books will reveal.
>But if not in those books then one would expect a death certificate
>with a name on it to cover those people OR one would expect orders not
>to follow standing orders to issue death certificates.

    I presume you mean _written_ orders?  And just why would one expect
that?  If such orders were secret - as one would expect - one would also
expect them to be destroyed to keep them from falling into the hands of
the advancing Soviets.


>	As for "name unknown" they would have their papers on them, would
>they not?

    Would they?  Even children?


>If the papers were lost, they could ask the others.
>However this assumes that all of the horror stories about the train
>trips are true.

    It assumes no such thing.


>Did you ever hear the one about how the cars were
>filled with lime and the prisoners' shoes were taken so they would be
>dead and partially decomposed on arrival?

    Actually, no.  And of course you are creating a strawman, which I wish
you would stop doing.  All I am assuming is that we would expect to see a
perfectly natural thing like a couple dozen old people, out of several
hundred thousand people shipped to Auschwitz from Hungary, having heart
attacks or strokes.  We keep hearing revisionists talking about how
disease was rampant.



>>>That is a claim hard to believe for anyone who knows the compulsive method
>>>of German bureaucracies - especially during the Hitler years where every
>>>pencil and every brick of coal for heating were recorded.
>>
>>    You completely overlook the fact that your own theory - that most of
>>the missing Jews were alive somewhere after the war - suffers from the
>>same gaping documentary hole. 
>
>	No greater a hole than the rest of the 31 million untraceable
>people.

    Terrible analysis.  Most of the rest of the 31 million people (a
figure you've never given a source for) were not taken into custody by the
people Ms. Rimland refers to as compulsory bureaucrats.  The Jews were. 
That is a very significant difference.

    On Ms.  Rimland's description of the Germans, there ought to be some
record of what was done with _all_ of the Hungarian Jews transported to
Auschwitz in 1944.  The books don't balance.


>So where are you going with all of this? 

    I don't know how to make it much simpler than I already have. 
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access2.digex.net Sat Nov 30 11:29:03 PST 1996
Article: 82753 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!news.cic.net!newsrelay.netins.net!newsfeed.dacom.co.kr!usenet.seri.re.kr!news.kreonet.re.kr!newsfeed.kreonet.re.kr!news.postech.ac.kr!usenet.kornet.nm.kr!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Horse's Mouth
Date: 21 Nov 1996 21:40:55 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <5733rn$hmp@access2.digex.net>
References:  <56tv3o$4ju@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net

In article <56tv3o$4ju@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>   schwartz@infinet.com (Sara aka Perrrfect) writes:
>    This is from the text of a speech by Adolf Hitler given on February 24,
>  1943, on the Anniversary of the founding of the NSDAP. The translation was
>  provided by the Nazis themselves, and it is quoted in an OSS report from
>  Dr. Walter Langer to Col. William J. Donovan. The complete text of it will
>  be available on Nizkor soon. [...]

>>>>>
>Whether this report is accurate or not is open to question,

    On what basis?  Rather than grandly asserting something might be
wrong, when are you going to produce some REAL FACTS (remember those?) to
indicate why there is reason to doubt the accuracy of the report?

    I know it will spoil your game plan, but them's the breaks. 

    Now get to work on those REAL FACTS.
    

>but the fact remains that the jews were far from finished
>off in Europe or anywhere else for that matter.  In fact, Jews
>seem to have more influence today than at any other time
>during their long and turbulent history.

    The fact that a shooting victim survived does not prove that there was
no attempted murder.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Nov 30 11:45:36 PST 1996
Article: 3150 of alt.fan.ernst-zundel
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!nntp.portal.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel
Subject: Re: 961124: What happened to the missing Jews?
Date: 27 Nov 1996 16:21:30 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 227
Message-ID: <57ibcq$hs@access5.digex.net>
References:  <57g03s$ast@access5.digex.net> <329c6142.19986932@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:82533 alt.fan.ernst-zundel:3150

In article <329c6142.19986932@news.gte.net>,
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name of
RBS  wrote:
>On 26 Nov 1996 18:56:44 -0500, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
>Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article ,
>>E. Zundel Repost  wrote:
>>
>>[snip]
>>
>>>In December of last year the Anti-Defamation League ran an ad in the New
>>>York Times that asked a simple question:  "What happened to the missing
>>>Jews?"  That is an emotional question.  You see that ad.  You are left with
>>>that thought.
>>
>>    No, it's a factual question.  Revisionists say there are (or at least
>>were at one time) about four or five million live Jews running around for
>>years after everyone else believed dead.  If you can ask where the ashes
>>are, I can ask where those live Jews went and how they got there.
>
>	Perhaps those missing Jews are the same place the other 26 million
>missing Europeans are?  Remember 31 million total untraceable after
>the war.  Why make an issue of a much smaller number?  
>
>	But since you claim to know what happened to those jews, where are
>both the ashes and the mass graves for the bodies of those not
>cremated?  And then get on to the six million non-jews that were
>supposed to be part of this holocaust.  Roughly 10 thousand mass
>graves are out there to be found some place.

    How many will you accept as a reasonable sample?

    As a start, did you look at the archaeological report for which I
posted the URL? 



>>>What you don't know is that THAT question is precisely what Revisionists
>>>ask - for which they have been hounded, beaten, spat at, vilified, charged,
>>>tried, jailed - and even killed.  Why is it "criminal" to want to know why
>>>the numbers are shrinking and shrinking - like a balloon that has been
>>>pricked?
>
>>    Except that they have not - not the total numbers.  There have been
>>revisions at individual sites.  And the Auschwitz deflation did not affect
>>the Jewish total, as the four million claim was _people_, not Jews alone.
>
>	Good sir, in 1945 the story was that nine million jews had been
>executed at Auschwitz (before Birkenau was even part of the equation,
>that is.)

    Gee, I never heard _that_ story.  Got a source for it?


>It is noted that at that time, despite the Russian number,
>Jews held tenaciously to their six million despite it being only a WAG
>pulled out of Kaballistic mysticism.

    It was at worst a SWAG pulled out of pre- and postwar population
figures.


>That being the reason that it
>will continue to be used, regardless of any facts uncovered, such as
>the Auschwitz death books.
>
>	The number has been decreasing every few years since 1945 and the
>cry is usually, "no reputable historian," the problem with that is, no
>reputable historian has ever blessed any number, neither of them.   
>
>>[discussion of additional death registers deleted]
>
>	Why?  They are the ONLY reliable record of substance and all

    Not quite.  Records of people shipped to the camp must also be taken
into account.


>increases beyond it must be built upon them.  Everything else is
>speculation, attempting to support the mystical six with six zeros as
>from the six points of the Star of David.  
>
>>>That is what "Holocaust" Revisionism has achieved!
>>
>>    You are overblowing things.  On the shelves of the Holocaust Museum
>>library are copies of previously-discovered death registers.  It wasn't
>>revisionists who produced those.  It wasn't the theory or method of
>>revisionism which produced the documents.
>
>	The lists developed by Yad Vashem are after the fact, compiled by
>those who insist upon the mystical number, they total only 3 million
>and include those from the 31 million missing category without
>justification other than their being jewish.

    Please explain how this relates to anything I said.  I did not say one
word about the Yad Vashem lists.  As should have been obvious to anyone
literate in the English language, I was talking about the incomplete
Auschwitz death registers which were known before the ones Ms. Rimland
seems to be talking about that fill in the gaps for the missing months.


>	Note that for such mystical types, a missing jew is a jew executed
>by the Nazis, inclusion on the list does not require evidence of
>death.

    Cremation makes it kinda hard to identify the remains of any
individual missing Jew.



>>    As you yourself admit below (and I thank you for having the honesty to
>>acknowledge the argument), the registers only cover _registered_
>>prisoners.  So the new documents do not change anyone's understanding from
>>what the previously-known death registers showed.  So where is the
>>wonderful new achievement?
>
>	And where is the evidence of the unregistered?  Despite the fine
>stories, that there were "unregistered" is no more than a story.

    Wrong.  There are survivors who were on the trains to Auschwitz who
never got an Auschwitz number.


>	Evidence you demand?  Our friendly neighborhood Sonderkommandos
>were registered YET the story goes that they were worked for a few
>weeks and then gassed themselves.  Yet so such deaths are recorded.

    Um, just how would you expect those deaths to be recorded?  What would
you be looking for in the books that would tell you this one was an SK
member?


>	So now, in addition to establishing there were unregistered you
>must established that the cause of death of some of registered were
>falsified.

    I do have an idea where to go look for such evidence.  I might just be
able to oblige you, though it will take some time to do the research I
have in mind.


>And both of those will require a paper trail of orders to
>do so.

    Try telling your superior officer that you refuse to follow a verbal
order, it must be put in writing.  Let us know what happens. 


>At the least you will have to establish the paper trail of
>"code word" orders that can be traced to these actions.

    Again, why?  There are no such things as verbal orders?


>>    Let me ask you: quite aside from the issue of whether anyone was
>>gassed, do you seriously believe that NOT ONE person died of natural
>>causes on the trains?  How do you think they were handled?  Do you think
>>they assigned prisoner numbers to dead bodies so they could be included in
>>those death registers?  Can you find unnumbered or "name unknown"
>>prisoners in the death registers?
>
>	That is what a detailed examination of the death books will reveal.
>But if not in those books then one would expect a death certificate
>with a name on it to cover those people OR one would expect orders not
>to follow standing orders to issue death certificates.

    I presume you mean _written_ orders?  And just why would one expect
that?  If such orders were secret - as one would expect - one would also
expect them to be destroyed to keep them from falling into the hands of
the advancing Soviets.


>	As for "name unknown" they would have their papers on them, would
>they not?

    Would they?  Even children?


>If the papers were lost, they could ask the others.
>However this assumes that all of the horror stories about the train
>trips are true.

    It assumes no such thing.


>Did you ever hear the one about how the cars were
>filled with lime and the prisoners' shoes were taken so they would be
>dead and partially decomposed on arrival?

    Actually, no.  And of course you are creating a strawman, which I wish
you would stop doing.  All I am assuming is that we would expect to see a
perfectly natural thing like a couple dozen old people, out of several
hundred thousand people shipped to Auschwitz from Hungary, having heart
attacks or strokes.  We keep hearing revisionists talking about how
disease was rampant.



>>>That is a claim hard to believe for anyone who knows the compulsive method
>>>of German bureaucracies - especially during the Hitler years where every
>>>pencil and every brick of coal for heating were recorded.
>>
>>    You completely overlook the fact that your own theory - that most of
>>the missing Jews were alive somewhere after the war - suffers from the
>>same gaping documentary hole. 
>
>	No greater a hole than the rest of the 31 million untraceable
>people.

    Terrible analysis.  Most of the rest of the 31 million people (a
figure you've never given a source for) were not taken into custody by the
people Ms. Rimland refers to as compulsory bureaucrats.  The Jews were. 
That is a very significant difference.

    On Ms.  Rimland's description of the Germans, there ought to be some
record of what was done with _all_ of the Hungarian Jews transported to
Auschwitz in 1944.  The books don't balance.


>So where are you going with all of this? 

    I don't know how to make it much simpler than I already have. 
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Dec  1 16:07:03 PST 1996
Article: 82920 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: another minor problem
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 27 Nov 1996 17:12:34 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <57ieci$2es@access5.digex.net>
References: <329c8f9e.31283577@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <329c8f9e.31283577@news.gte.net>, RBS  wrote:
>	Lets see, even after we have the gassed Jews at A-B down under a
>million (be grateful for small progress) we still have millions of
>Jews having been shipped to A-B but not gassed there.
>
>	Ah, oh, the pain.  Now all of those stories of the hundreds of
>thousands of jews from all over easter europe that for decades added
>up to millions, suddenly WERE NOT SHIPPED to A-B in the first place.

    Actually, the claim of millions shipped to A-B was never based on
shipping records in the first place.  It was based on Hoess's testimony,
which he later admitted was hearsay, and later revised downwards himself
in his memoirs - contradicting the claims of the very people revisionists
assert coerced Hoess into writing those memoirs. 


>	Yet of course, all of those stories of the millions that were
>shipped away and presumed gassed now no longer have a placed to be
>gassed at.  
>
>	So which and  how many of those liars who reported the total of
>millions being shipped will now be branded liars?
>
>	Although the holobuggers are once again raising the "no reputable
>historian" cry again on the three million reduction, they are not
>addressing, are loath to consider, the three million FEWER shipped,
>and the three million FEWER railroad records and the (almost) three
>million eyewitness stories to these shipments.


    Since the only person I have ever seen making any claim about railroad
records of all four of Hoess's original millions being _shipped_ is Matt
Giwer, the answer to his question

>	So which and  how many of those liars who reported the total of
>millions being shipped will now be branded liars?

is left as an exercise to those capable of elementary logic.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Dec  1 16:07:04 PST 1996
Article: 82941 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!nntp.portal.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.usenet.kooks,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: another minor problem
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 28 Nov 1996 09:47:08 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 121
Message-ID: <57k8lc$2ur@access5.digex.net>
References: <329c8f9e.31283577@news.gte.net>   <329d9142.95812378@news.gte.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.usenet.kooks:31391 alt.revisionism:82941

In article <329d9142.95812378@news.gte.net>, 
Matt Giwer (mgiwer@gte.net) under the name
RBS  wrote:
>On Wed, 27 Nov 1996 22:57:58 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>wrote:
>
>>RBS@arches.ogre [Nazi coward afraid to post under
>>his own name] wrote:
>>
>># Lets see, even after we have the gassed Jews at A-B
>># down under a million (be grateful for small progress)
>>#  we still have millions of Jews having been shipped
>># to A-B but not gassed there.
>>
>>No, we don't. You're simply hallucinating.
>
>	You posted the letter written by Dov Wiessmandel where he gave the
>numbers and rates of jews being shipped in from Hungary.

    DejaNews shows no such post from Dr. Keren.  In fact, the first
posting of the letter found on DejaNews was by mgiwer@ix.netcom.com on 30
Sept.


>I know
>multiplication is beyond you but if you ask a friend to go through his
>numbers for you, you will find he reported some three million
>Hungarian Jews being shipped to Auschwitz.

Let's see, you are referring to this quote?

"Every day, twelve thousand souls are being taken off. Four deportations
of forty-five such train-loads move daily out of Hungary. Within
twenty-six days all that area will have been deported."

    I make that 26 days * 12,000/day = 312,000.  The second sentence is
rather unclear.  I take it you are assuming that he meant 12,000 were on
each of forty-five daily trains?  But that doesn't work either.  It
produces 14,040,000.  Maybe you think he meant 4 * 12,000 * 26.  But that
gives 1,248,000, not your claimed three million.

    Why didn't you go all the way and multiply all the numbers, to get

    4 deportations * 45 trains/deportation * 12,000 people/train * 26 days
= 56,160,000.  You could even add two more days (due to the "yesterday"
reference and the assumption that the twenty-six days didn't include
today) to make the number even bigger.

    Or didn't you think anyone would swallow a lie that big?

    But we still have no explanation of how you can get to the number
three million from anything in the paragraph from the letter.  The most
obvious explanation is that you once again slipped the decimal point.


>	You really should pay better attention to what you post.  Some
>people have a tendency to compare post and the claims in them.  

    You mean people like me?


>># Ah, oh, the pain.  Now all of those stories of the
>># hundreds of thousands of jews from all over easter
>># europe that for decades added up to millions, suddenly
>># WERE NOT SHIPPED to A-B in the first place.
>>
>>No one claimed they ever were. The rest of the Jewish
>>victims died in the other death camps (such as Treblinka),
>>in the Einsatzgruppen massacres in Nazi-occupied USSR,
>>and in numerous smaller camps and ghettos.
>
>	Naughty, naughty.  We are talking about those shipped to be gassed.
>The claim is that ONLY those who were to be gassed immediately were
>not registered.  As for the deaths of the registered, we have the
>death books.  We do not have millions of deaths recorded in the death
>books.  The camps were not large enough to hold millions in any event,
>no matter how densely packed.

    Naughty, naughty.  Nobody claimed that the camps held millions of
people all at the same time.


>	If you wish to talk EG, we are still looking for around 10,000 (ten
>thousand) mass graves that hold their bodies.  And there is still no
>sign of even a small fraction of that number.

    Since you refuse to go farther than your computer screen to look, it
is not surprising you have seen no sign of them.  Have you even yet
checked out the URL I provided with the Australian archaeologist's report?


>But there is no need
>for shipping them to shoot them and in fact there are no reports of
>shipping just to shoot.

    Who claimed that there were?

    It was not necessary to ship them to shoot them.  It was necessary to
ship them to keep their neighbors from seeing them being shot.  Sorry your
mind is not capable of seeing such subtle points.  There were complaints
>from  some German officers during the Einsatzgruppen actions that some of
the executions were too much of a spectacle.


>>Are you familiar with "leading revisionist" Matt Giwer,
>>and his arguments (one of which is quoted below)? You
>>sure sound like him.
>
>	When you see two people who can do arithmetic the ability so
>astounds you that you would naturally think they were the same person.

    12,000/day * 26 days = 312,000.

    Yes, neither you nor Matt Giwer can do simple arithmetic or read with
comprehension.  You must indeed be the same person.  The odds against the
world holding two such idiots at the same time are astronomical.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Dec  1 16:07:05 PST 1996
Article: 83024 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!news.bconnex.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nazi Mass Murder in the Ukraine
Date: 26 Nov 1996 15:27:02 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <57fjqm$poh@access5.digex.net>
References:  <577io2$idq@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <577io2$idq@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>>   dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
>>  rblackmore@juno.com writes:
>>  # dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
>>  
>>  [Quote from a report written by a Nazi official about
>>  mass murder of Jews in the Nazi-occupied Ukraine]
>>  
>>  # And where may we find the alleged author of this
>>  # report today?
>>  
>>  I don't know. He's either dead, or very old. Heck, now
>>  you can claim he never existed. Go ahead.
>>  
>>  Has it ever occurred to you to check with the appropriate
>>  German authorities where these people are?
>>  
>>  
>>  -Danny Keren.
>>  
>>  
>>>>>
>Has it ever occurred to you, since you try to use them as witnesses?

    What would the information allow you to conclude that you can't
conclude already?  Please tell us the point.

    Perhaps you are trying to suggest that such reports may be forgeries,
that you would like to find the author to ask if they are authentic?
Perhaps you are not aware that at the time the reports were written,
British Intelligence intercepted and decoded many radio reports which
involved the same kinds of killing actions in the written reports.  These
intercepts involved the Ultra secret, which was so highly classified that
it was not revealed until years after the war - the intercepts were never
used at Nuremberg.  However, they corroborate the written reports that
mass executions were being carried out - and they are completely untainted
by Soviet hands.  Does this additional information allow you to form some
conclusion about the written reports? 

    Posted/emailed.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.

Home ·  Site Map ·  What's New? ·  Search Nizkor