The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/s/stein.michael/1996/stein.1096


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Oct  1 12:32:08 PDT 1996
Article: 70634 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!news.thenet.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ilya Ehrenburg quotes faked?
Date: 1 Oct 1996 13:09:14 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <52rj7q$5ud@access5.digex.net>
References: <52e5is$1d@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <52n9in$gdu@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <52n9in$gdu@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>>   libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) writes:
>>  rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>>  : >   karlpov@access5.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power) writes:
>>  
>>  : >  Can anyone out there post Ehrenburg's anti-German exhortations 
>>  : >  together with a checkable primary source? If not, I think we 
>>  : >  should all assume that such quotes are bogus.
>>  
>>  : They are not a forgery.  Nice try, though.  But I can think of a few real
>>  : forgeries......
>>  
>>  In other words, no.  Mr. Belling cannot post Ehrenburg's anti-German
>>  exhortations together with a checkable primary source.  He asserts,
>>  however, that they are not forged--and his assertion should be good
>>  enough for us Holohuggers.
>>  
>>  Bill
>>  
>>>>>
>Ok, Bill:  Here are the sources which you said I could or would not ever come up with-
>

>1.  A Primary Source-You will find a photostatic copy of one of Ilya 
>Ehrenburg's hate tracts fully reproduced in the book:  Ehren Buch des
>Deutschen Soldaten, FZ Verlag, Munich, Germany, 1985.  You can't get more
>unequivocal than that.

    I think there have been multiple misunderstandings here.  There was
one _specific_ quote which the New Republic article called a forgery - the
one which supposedly exhorted Soviet soldiers to rape their (i.e., the
Germans')  women.  The question was not (or should not have been) whether
Ehrenburg wrote anti-German propaganda _at all_.

    However, I will see if I can check the others as well.  I hope you can
clarify something for me about the above source.  You say that a
photostatic copy is "fully reproduced" in the book, and that it is
"unequivocal."  But if it is a photostatic copy, it would be in Russian,
making it rather hard for most people to check.  Do you speak that
language, or does the book provide a translation into German in the
printed text?

    I'm not sure you understand what a primary source is.  Doenitz's
memoirs are a secondary source.  If Goebbels was floating forgeries around
Germany, Doenitz's quoting them would not prove a thing.


[snip]


>Now, aren't you glad you brought this subject up?  I am.

    Try it again now that I have explained the subject better.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Oct  1 16:33:38 PDT 1996
Article: 70687 of alt.revisionism
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From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where is our german linguist?
Date: 1 Oct 1996 15:56:37 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <52rt1l$gqk@access5.digex.net>
References: <5182q1$5as@Vir.com> <52m9n9$cnn@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <324edc5c.4276979@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <52oobn$lvm@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <52oobn$lvm@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Sun, 29 Sep 1996 20:34:57 GMT, jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris)
>wrote:
>
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>
>>>On 29 Sep 1996 14:27:01 GMT, schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz) wrote:
>
>>>>Capt. Peter Peachfuzz (mgiwer@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
>>>>: On 24 Sep 1996 06:05:43 GMT, schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il 
>>>>: (Richard Schultz) wrote:
>
>>>>:: And perhaps you, as such a student of the German language, would care
>>>>:: to tell us something of the etymology of the word "Nizkor," which you
>>>>:: have claimed is of German origin?
>
>>>>: [352 lines of irrelevant garbage deleted]
>
>>>>Now that you've gotten that off your chest, would you care to answer
>>>>the question?  Remember -- it's *your* contention that the person making
>>>>the claim (in this case, you) who has to support it with evidence.
>
>>[110 lines of juvenile analysis deleted]
>
>	If you are not going to address the issues why do you insist upon
>wasting bandwidth?
>
>	The purpose of this conference is to discuss revisionism.

    Note that this statement comes from a person who just posted a number
of articles talking about the current turmoil in Jerusalem over the tunnel
exit.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

    OK, let's return to revisionism.  Tell us again about those
hundred-pound screaming lice which were killed in the vans discussed in
the letter from Just to Rauff.  Remember, you proposed that the letter was
really about Degesch mobile delousing chambers.  Can you produce any
physical evidence of this unusual species of louse which nobody else has
ever heard of?
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Oct  1 18:27:54 PDT 1996
Article: 70706 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Baron Lies About the ADL Again
Date: 1 Oct 1996 17:10:41 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <52s1ch$lac@access5.digex.net>
References: <843761348snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> <52nd1f$4ei@news.enter.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <52nd1f$4ei@news.enter.net>,
Yale F. Edeiken  wrote:
>>   A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk (Alexander Baron) writes:
>  
>>  Bore, bore, lie, lie, fucking bore. Mr Stein has a copy of this 
>>  non-existent article. 
>
>	Which, according to Mr. Stein, makes no mention of the statements 
>you have attributed to it.

    I think there is some confusion here.  _Two_ articles have been
mentioned in this thread: the Tulsa World article on antisemitism, and the
article about Christina Jeffries.  I have copies of both.

    I believe that Yale thinks Al meant the Jeffries article in his
reference to "the" article.  This is in my view not very good reading; 
"non-existent" should have been a tip-off that Al meant the Tulsa World
article which Yale questioned the existence of.

    Al Baron simply misread the Jeffries article.  She was fired (or
disinvited) from the position as historian of the House of
Representatives.  Al said she was fired from the _college_, which she was
not.  When I told Al about his error, his reply was something along the
lines of, "Did I say that?  Oh, fuck."

    I have not discussed the Tulsa World article with anyone but Al Baron. 
I will be posting more about it later when I get a chance with the article
in hand (I don't have it with me right now).  Al's initial article in this
thread is also missing from my server, so I have to dig that out from
DejaNews or Nizkor.  But the Tulsa World article does exist, and I cannot
>from  memory identify anything that Al Baron is wrong about in any of his
posts which _have_ made it to my server. 

    Posted/emailed both to Mr. Baron and Mr. Edeiken.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Oct  1 18:27:55 PDT 1996
Article: 70707 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!EU.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: HITLER SAID THE JEWS ARE THE BIG LIARS
Date: 1 Oct 1996 17:40:58 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <52s35a$nbo@access5.digex.net>
References:  <52i698$6u3@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <52i698$6u3@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Fri, 27 Sep 1996 01:00:23 +0100, Jeffrey  wrote:
>
>>Hitler and the 'Big Lie'
>
>
>> 
>>It has been repeated so often that virtually no one bothers to challenge
>>it: Adolf Hitler created and used the "Big Lie," one of his many evil
>>techniques. As holds true for so many things we are told, this belief,
>>too, must be examined to see the underlying truth. 
>
>>In Mein Kampf, Hitler wrote:
>
>>[begin quote]
>
>>But it remained for the Jews, with their unqualified capacity for
>>falsehood, and their fighting comrades, the Marxists, to impute
>>responsibility for the downfall [of Germany in WWI] precisely to the man
>>who alone had shown a superhuman will and energy in his effort to
>>prevent the catastrophe which he had foreseen and to save the nation
>>from that hour of complete overthrow and shame.
>
>	Actually what he missed what that he was referring primarily to 
>eastern europeans who minds do not work the same way as western
>europeans.

    Nobody's mind works like Matt Giwer's.


>They express themselves in allegories and exaggerations.
>They recount stories about facts rather than facts themselves.  

    Matt Giwer recounts lies and hallucinations.  Obviously Hitler never
met Matt Giwer or he might have used a different example.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Oct  2 08:17:02 PDT 1996
Article: 70818 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: the four pieces of physical evidence
Date: 30 Sep 1996 18:07:44 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <52pgbg$m7t@access5.digex.net>
References: <52es0g$d1n@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>  <52hctm$cov@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <52hctm$cov@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>	Nothing substantive was expected from this Jew traitor and there is no
>disappointment here.  
>
>On Thu, 26 Sep 1996 23:36:42 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>
>># The four pieces of physical evidence of the extermination
>># of 12 million people.
>
>>Well, he forgot all the other documents, and the gas chambers,
>>and the huge numbers of corpses and human remains, and the
>>photographs, but never mind...
>
>	We have been over all of those.  They have not withstood critical 
>examinaiton.

    Your claim to know something about critical examination has not
withstood critical examination, silly person who thinks that lice can
scream.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Oct  2 10:54:18 PDT 1996
Article: 70867 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!news1.erols.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: the four pieces of physical evidence
Date: 2 Oct 1996 02:58:13 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <52t3q5$rj4@access5.digex.net>
References: <52es0g$d1n@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <52hctm$cov@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <52pgbg$m7t@access5.digex.net> <52rs20$8mt@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <52rs20$8mt@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 30 Sep 1996 18:07:44 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <52hctm$cov@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
>>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>>>	Nothing substantive was expected from this Jew traitor and there is no
>>>disappointment here.  
>>>
>>>On Thu, 26 Sep 1996 23:36:42 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>>
>>>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>>>
>>>># The four pieces of physical evidence of the extermination
>>>># of 12 million people.
>>>
>>>>Well, he forgot all the other documents, and the gas chambers,
>>>>and the huge numbers of corpses and human remains, and the
>>>>photographs, but never mind...
>>>
>>>	We have been over all of those.  They have not withstood critical 
>>>examinaiton.
>
>>    Your claim to know something about critical examination has not
>>withstood critical examination, silly person who thinks that lice can
>>scream.
>
>	Screaming lice?  What a very strange person you are to use the 
>methods of the Protocols.  

    Rather you are a very strange person to think that I could post
articles without the methods of the Protocols.  TCP/IP and NNTP to be
precise.  I also use SMTP a lot.  Quite a few people do.  What's your
point?

    You seem to be using the methods of Tom "wherzat?" Moran, pretending
you don't know what I'm talking about.  You suggested that the letter from
Just to Rauff about gassing vans referred to the Degesch mobile delousing
chambers.  Yet that letter refers to the "load" screaming.  If you
honestly believe the letter could have referred to vans used for
delousing, you must believe in screaming lice. 

    Of course you might simply have been deliberately dishonest in making
that suggestion.  After all, I have it from an unimpeachable source that
you are a deliberate liar.  Or do you claim the person who wrote the
article below is a liar?

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Oct  2 14:39:57 PDT 1996
Article: 70933 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Impossible statistics in "Hoess" memoirs
Date: 2 Oct 1996 12:10:53 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 161
Message-ID: <52u46d$ghn@access5.digex.net>
References:   <52gscp$7v@access5.digex.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net


    It looks as if we have another sufferer of Acquired Revisionist Myopia
Syndrome. 

> In article <52gscp$7v@access5.digex.net>, "Michael P. Stein"
>  writes
> >In article ,
> >Mark Van Alstine  wrote:
> >>In article , Jeffrey
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> "Eichmann expected to recieve from Hungary, according to the estimate of
> >>> the Hungarian Police, who had carried out the arrests, about 3,000,000
> >>> jews." 
> >>
> >>"Acording to the estimate from the Hungarian police who had carried out
> >>the arrests, Eichmann expected to recieve about three million Jews from
> >>Hungary. 
> >>
> >>"The arrests and transportation should have been completed by 1943, but
> >>because the Hungarian government's political difficulties, the date was
> >>always postponed.
> >>
> >>"In particular the Hungarian army, or rather the senior officers, were
> >>opposed to the extradition of these people and gave most of the Jewish men
> >>a a refuge in the labor companies of the front line divisions, thus
> >>keeping them out of the grasp of the police.
> >>
> >>"When in the fall of 1944 an action was started in Budapest itself, only
> >>old and sick Jewish men remained. 
> >>
> >>"All together there were probably not more than half a million Jews
> >>transported out of Hungary." (Ho"ss, _Death Dealer_, p.46.) 
> >
> >    Funny how Jeff left that part out of his quote.
> 
> I didn,'t.....and it was quotes.

    My text followed the first quote.  It addressed the first quote, which
was one quote.  That is why I said quote, singular.  As to the other
two, I remind you that the Germans were using a racial, not religious
definition; the Wannsee protocol estimates were followed by the following
text:

   "The number of Jews given here for foreign countries includes, however,
only those Jews who still adhere to the Jewish faith, since some
countries still do not have a definition of the term "Jew" according
to racial principles."

    Additionally, this was before the situation was confused due to
refugees.  Remember, they did not get as many Jews from Russia as they
expected.

    And you did indeed leave out something important.  Perhaps I had
better put it in capital letters so you can see it better this time. 

> [my posting]
> 
> "Eichmann expected to recieve from Hungary, according to the estimate of
> the Hungarian Police, who had carried out the arrests, about 3,000,000
> jews." 
> 
> "..,Eichmann expected to get about 4,000,000 jews from there." [Rumania]
> 
> "Bulgaria was to follow with an estimated two and a half million jews."
> 
> A total of 9 and a half million jews, in Hungary, Rumania, and Bulgaria!
> 
> 
> [From the "Commandant of Auschwitz" the 'memoirs' of Rudolf Hoess p225-6

    Jeff Roberts claims he left nothing out.

    Here is what he left out following the sentence about the Hungarian
situation, put in capital letters so that perhaps he can see it this time. 
The most significant part which Jeff concealed is double-underlined. 



"THE ARRESTS AND TRANSPORTATION SHOULD HAVE BEEN COMPLETED BY 1943, BUT
BECAUSE OF THE HUNGARIAN GOVERNMENT'S POLITICAL DIFFICULTIES, THE DATE WAS
ALWAYS POSTPONED.

"IN PARTICULAR THE HUNGARIAN ARMY, OR RATHER THE SENIOR OFFICERS, WERE
OPPOSED TO THE EXTRADITION OF THESE PEOPLE AND GAVE MOST OF THE 
JEWISH MEN A REFUGE IN THE LABOR COMPANIES OF THE FRONT LINE DIVISIONS,
THUS KEEPING THEM OUT OF THE GRASP OF THE POLICE.

"WHEN IN THE FALL OF 1944 AN ACTION WAS STARTED IN BUDAPEST ITSELF, ONLY
OLD AND SICK JEWISH MEN REMAINED.

"ALL TOGETHER THERE WERE PROBABLY NOT MORE THAN HALF A MILLION JEWS
			 ==========================================
TRANSPORTED OUT OF HUNGARY." (Ho"ss, _Death Dealer_, p.46.)
==========================



    Got that?  Hoess ended by saying 500,000 was the _maximum_ number
actually transported.  Quite realistic.  You CONCEALED the fact that at
the end of the discussion, Hoess gave a not-at-all-impossible statistic
for Hungary.
    

> >    I think this is a LOT more significant than the difference between
> >"Knowledge is power" and "Knowledge itself is power" which Jeff went on
> >and on about with John Morris.
> 
> Not it isn't.

    Please explain the significance of the omission of the word "itself." 
So far you have been COMPLETELY UNABLE to do so despite your insistence
(Because! I!  Say!  So!)  that the difference is "significant." 


> >    In fact, I think any honest and intelligent speaker of English would
> >agree.
> 
> No, they wouldn't.

    What is this, a Monty Python sketch?  Talk is cheap.  Let's see if you
are willing to put your money where your mouth is. 

    Would you like to place a hundred-dollar wager on the decision of a
jury of ten secondary-school English teachers selected at random?  If you
win, I will contribute to the IHR.  If you win, you contribute to Nizkor. 

    And I will happily go double or nothing on whether the verdict is
unanimous.

    Challenge is on the table.  Do you still believe your omission is less
significant than John Morris's, enough to put real money behind it?



> >    I wonder if Jeff would care to explain this apparent double
standard. 
> 
> Done it.

    All you have done is assert that you are right, and denied leaving
something out when it is clear you omitted something significant about the
Hungarian situation.  Hoess concluded by giving very realistic numbers for
Hungary.  You concealed that, giving a false impression.  That is
dishonest in my book, and I will (quite literally) wager that it is
dishonest in other people's view as well.


> I wonder if Mr Stein will now admit he is in error? 

    Given that you did indeed leave out the capitalized words, just as I
said you did, no. 

    As to the significance, I await your acceptance of the wager.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Oct  2 14:39:57 PDT 1996
Article: 70936 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-penn.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Vergasungskeller BITES THE DUST!
Date: 2 Oct 1996 16:16:17 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 60
Message-ID: <52uiih$50@access5.digex.net>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article ,
Jeffrey   wrote:
>[Holocaust hate propagandists have for a long time trumpeted the
>Vergassingkeller - gasssing cellar - as a slip by the Nazis,
>revisionists pointed out that the document has no security
>classification and therefore admits nothing.

    I don't consider this a valid inference for several reasons, but let's
let that pass for now.


>Hopefully, the following
>will at last put the gassing cellar = gaschamber nonsense to the dustbin
>of history where it belongs, along with the rest of the homocidal gas
>chamber rubbish - JR] 

>All the same, [Graf and Mattogno] did find documents that conflict with
>the orthodox
>extermination story. One refers specifically to a "delousing chamber for
>crematory II" ("Entlausungskammer fur ein Krematorium") in Birkenau.
>This document apparently clarifies the real meaning of one or more of
>Pressac's so-called "criminal traces," as well as of the widely-cited
>letter of Jan. 29, 1943 that refers to a "gassing cellar"
>("Vergasungskeller") in Birkenau crematory II. It is  often claimed that
>this must be a reference to a homicidal gas chamber. (See A. Butz' "Some
>Thoughts on Pressac's opus " in the May-June 1993 Journal, pp. 27-31,
>35[n.23].)

    Be sure to tell Butz; he now thinks it was a cellar to protect against
poison gas attack.

    You do realize, do you not, that your claims for this document put the
Leuchter Report into the dustbin as the fraud I have always said it was? 
Remember, Leuchter claimed that it was too dangerous to use cyanide in the
Kremas, and that it would take too long to ventilate, and so on.  Yet you
SWORE he was an expert when you kept flogging that as "evidence."  Or
should we instead take the Leuchter Report as "proof" that this
"Entlausungskeller" memo is a forgery by Graf and/or Mattogno?  :)


>This long-suppressed German document, which was overlooked
>by Fleming and Prosaic, suggests instead that this "gassing cellar" was
>installed to save life, by killing typhus-bearing lice.

    So when do we get to see the document itself, rather than Graf and
Mattogno's claims about what the document says?  You know quite well that
if Pressac had announced he had found a document mentioning a
"Vergasungskeller" but failed to produce the whole thing for inspection,
you would be screaming bloody murder.  You will excuse me for wanting to
see the whole thing for myself, but given the "revisionist" penchant for
lying by omission I think I am well justified in making the request.


[remainder snipped]

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Oct  2 17:01:05 PDT 1996
Article: 70976 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: Oroborous draws a bead on his foot...
Date: 2 Oct 1996 12:29:46 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <52u59q$h8l@access5.digex.net>
References: <51nesm$hme@lex.zippo.com> <52eivm$g29@lex.zippo.com> <52g83o$l3c@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <52hf20$hfs@lex.zippo.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:45567 alt.revisionism:70976 alt.politics.nationalism.white:32011

In article <52hf20$hfs@lex.zippo.com>,   wrote:
>In article <52g83o$l3c@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>, Laura says...
>>
>>Ourobouros wrote:
>>>In article <52ca7l$3ka@access5.digex.net>, mstein@access5.digex.net says...
>>
>>[...]
>>
>>>Considering that the point of McVay in specially marking said post was
>>>for a supposed fabrication of C-S.  "Finsten" claims that I said C-S
>>>makes mention of a White race, which is totally false.
>>
>>I made no such claim, "Mr. Stone".  I called you on the carpet for this
>>statement:
>>
>>     At some point in the future genetic distance maps visibly 
>>     demonstrating the White gene pool, as has been vaguely done
>>     by Cavalli-Sforza and his team in "History and Geography of
>>     Human Genes", 1994.  For a person to be White they will have
>>     to be within the appropriate area. [reproduced from the
>>     offending Nizkor file]
>>
>So this reply (of yours) is a figment of everybody's imagination? :
>
>  By the way, Cavalli-Sforza et al. have *not* identified, delimited or 
>  even *mentioned* a "White gene pool" in "The History and Geography of
>  Human Genes".  "White" does not appear in the index of this book,
>  which I have sitting right before me (Santa did indeed come early
>  this year).  Or would you care to direct me to a specific page or 
>  quotation? 
>
>These statements "...have *not* identified, delimited or even *mentioned* 
>a 'White gene pool'... 'White' does not appear in the index of this book
>..." all imply the opposite of your claim.

    Let me explain it to you so that perhaps you can understand.

    You asserted a "vague" link between the research of Cavilli-Sforza and
genetic distance maps visibly demonstrating the white gene pool.

    Ms. Finsten pointed out that "white" does not appear in the book.

    This does not necessarily imply that you claimed C-S mentioned white.

    Rather, it points out that there seems to be nothing in C-S which
could support your interpretation of the data.

    You are now invited to supply your reasoning, in detail, which
supports a claim that the research of Cavilli-Sforza can legitimately be
interpreted as demonstrating a white gene pool, however vaguely - given
that this interpretation cannot be found in Cavilli-Sforza.

    I hope this clarification helps.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Oct  2 17:46:55 PDT 1996
Article: 70986 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!nntp-hub2.barrnet.net!news.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More Giwerundean scribblings
Date: 2 Oct 1996 12:43:20 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <52u638$hud@access5.digex.net>
References: <51nesm$hme@lex.zippo.com> <523vsj$nom@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <528use$s7m@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> <52egq7$d1n@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:45572 alt.politics.nationalism.white:32012 alt.revisionism:70986

In article <52egq7$d1n@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 24 Sep 1996 15:31:26 GMT, schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz) wrote:
>
>>Matt  Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>>: On 21 Sep 1996 21:52:53 +0100, dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote:
>
>>:: Giwer's response has been to claim that the Zimmermann telegram is a
>>:: well-known hoax and has been known to be so since 1925. I have challenged
>>:: him to provide evidence of this.)
>
>>: I no longer have copies of my grade school history books.  How did you 
>>: miss it?  Go to a public school?
>
>>So why won't you tell us the name of the elite private grade school that 
>>you attended?  From that information, it should be possible to determine
>>out of what history books you were taught, and what they have to say about
>>the Zimmerman telegram.  I will happily confess that I went to a public
>>school, and we were definitely *not* taught that the Zimmerman telegram
>>was a forgery (although we *were* taught that it was a factor in the US
>>decision to enter WW I).
>
>That would make it too easy for you.

    In other words, you are completely unable to provide any evidence for
your claim.  Burden of proof is on you.  But you know that.

> But you are making the kind of foolish
>assumption I expect.  

    You are engaging the same kind of foolish lying and weaseling I
expect.  After all, you have already admitted that you are willing to lie.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html

    Therefore your refusal to provide any reference which would allow your
claims to be checked should be viewed as more lying until you prove
otherwise.  Again, you are the one making the claim; burden of proof is on
you.  But you know that.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Oct  2 19:29:10 PDT 1996
Article: 70997 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news1.wtn.mci.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: Giwer admits again that he is a troll....
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 2 Oct 1996 17:12:29 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 20
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:70997 alt.usenet.kooks:29685

In article <52cljj$2bh@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>	Criminal?  Did I hear criminal?  Hey man!  When does the FBI come around to talk
>to me?  When do I get arrested?  How many times is "criminal" going to be
>mentioned here?  

    Do your own homework.  Go back to DejaNews and count the number of
times you accused Gordon McFee of criminal telephone harassment. 

    When are you going to file the complaint, dickless wonder?

[...]

>	Come on, little shit, make something happen.  

    Talking to yourself makes you look like a net.kook, you know.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Oct  2 20:22:42 PDT 1996
Article: 71005 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Human tattooed skins and Jars of Stomachs
Date: 2 Oct 1996 16:46:04 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <52ukac$1ku@access5.digex.net>
References: <52t36u$g8g@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <52t36u$g8g@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:

[snip]

>Well, these two narratives sure help to explain quite a bit, in my
>opinion.  First, it makes me wonder exactly WHO prepared those human
>skins and WHY-the "guards" or the INMATES?  As to the second quotation, I
>think I will file this along with my notes of Hoess's "interrogation".......
>And there will be more to come.  What was that Nizkor wrote about Germans
>not being tortured to extract confessions....? 

    The point, of course, is that you cannot simply point to one anecdote
and claim ALL confessions MUST therefore be torture.

    In particular, you need to deal with the postwar trials conducted by
the West German government.  Dr. Pfannenstiel, for example, for thirty
years consistently upheld the most important point of Gerstein's account -
that he and Gerstein witnessed a gassing together - even as he
contradicted Gerstein on both large and small details.

    I'm afraid "Staeglich Says" just doesn't cut it, especially as I have
yet to see even one instance of a recantation, letter admitting false
testimony attached to a will, etc. from any of those guards who (according
to Staeglich) were cowed into perjuring themselves in the postwar German
trials.  This doesn't square with my own observations of human nature.

    Even harder to deal with are testimonies such as that given by
Treblinka guard Franz Suchomel in the documentary "Shoah."  Please tell me
what torture he was subjected to.  He only spoke under the condition that
his name not be used (a promise Lanzmann gave and then broke).

    "Revisionists" pretend that the Nuremburg testimony was all that there
was.  'Taint so, and the tippy-toeing around this point is rather glaring.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Oct  3 08:37:05 PDT 1996
Article: 71029 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-penn.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-stkh.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp-oslo.UNINETT.no!nntp-trd.UNINETT.no!online.no!Oslo2.Norway.EU.net!Norway.EU.net!nntp.uio.no!sn.no!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uunet!news-in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Revisionist Def Comedy Jam - Part 4
Date: 2 Oct 1996 21:02:11 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 122
Message-ID: <52v3aj$3ks@access5.digex.net>
References: <52rqmc$ka2@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <52t8pf$i6t@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <52t8pf$i6t@juliana.sprynet.com>,  wrote: 
>By the way, NO group of people paraphrase and quote out of context more
>than supporters of the Holocaust.  They have years of experience at this
>little game. 

    Oh, I am SO glad you brought this up.  Our next contestant is Carlos
Porter.

    Porter made many allegations of factual inaccuracies in Thomas
Keneally's "Schindler's List."  I'll just cite a few.  The numbers in
parentheses are page numbers on the French "J'ai lu" paperback Porter was
citing; I give page numbers according to my English edition, Simon and
Schuster, 1982.  Sections beginning "TRUTH:" or "CLAIM:" are Porter's. 

  Porter begins by talking about Zyklon:

     TRUTH: actual dosage: 16 gr/m2 over a 24 hour exposure to kill
     clothes moths according to Document NI-9912, Directions for Use of
     Zyklon. The area must be ventilated for 2 days.


   The whole truth: the speed with which the cyanide is released depends
   on the temperature. And if there are blowers to assist the
   ventilation, it is very quick, according to a surprising source:

     [The standard Degesch delousing chambers] all had a safe and
     relatively quick means of producing and dispersing a lethal
     concentration of cyanide throughout each chamber; specially coated
     and insulated walls to maintain a minimum temperature and reduce
     cyanide penetration and loss; and circulation blowers and ductwork
     to thoroughly ventilate the chambers with fresh air in about one
     hour after a batch of victims had been killed. The venting phase
     could just as easily last several hours depending upon the
     discretion of the operator. During all this time, the entire
     contents including corpses would also have been heated, contrary to
     another Faurisson claim, to temperatures at least ten degrees above
     the boiling point of cyanide. Cyanide boils at 78 degrees
     Fahrenheit. (Friedrich Paul Berg, "Nazi Gas Chambers: The Answer to
     Dr. Faurisson's Challenge," Liberty Bell, October 1993, p. 31.)


 Porter:

    CLAIM: There was no way to combat typhus except by boiling clothing
    (260).

   The real text:

     I want a really first-rate shower block and laundry, Oskar told him.
     I have the welders who can put it together under your direction.
     Typhus, he growled, half-smiling at Garde. None of us wants typhus.
     The lice are already biting in Plaszow. We need to be able to boil
     clothes. (Keneally, 197)

   The distortion: nowhere does it say that boiling is the only way to
   disinfect clothes. Porter continues these distortions:

     Oskar Schindler was the only person to steam clothing, providing the
     only preventive measure against typhus .

   The real text:

     So that when Oskar ordered a delousing unit - showers, a laundry to
     boil clothes, a disinfection plant - built upstairs, it was no idle
     administrative order. The unit was to run on hot steam piped up from
     the cellars. (Keneally, 335)

   The distortion: Nowhere does it say that Schindler was the only person
   to steam clothing, or that this was the only way to prevent typhus.


     The book also makes the following factual admissions, all TRUE:


   The word "admit" and its derivatives are used frequently by Holocaust
   deniers. It has an emotional content, a suggestion that the person
   speaking is a liar who only grudgingly "admits" the truth when there
   is no hope of making the lie stick.

   Porter:

     TRUE: Most Holocaust "proofs" are of Polish or Soviet communist
     origin (342, 417, 520).

   The whole truth: there are hundreds of testimonies from both survivors
   and former guards as well. There are the camps themselves, including
   the destroyed gas chambers. No denier has yet come up with a credible
   and logically consistent explanation of why these structures were
   destroyed when the rest of the camp was left intact.

   The usual way is to say that they destroyed anything of military
   value, glossing over the fact that the early gas chamber in Krema I,
   which had been converted into a bomb shelter when the larger and more
   efficient gas chambers were built, was left standing.

   Porter:

     TRUE: Many Jews are Marxists who forged thousands of German
     documents, fabricating German stamps by the hundreds (182, 251, 285,
     458, 459, 460, 474).

    The distortion: they did this for passes, authorizations, etc. to
   escape and to stay alive. But where is it said in the book that they
   did this to manufacture false evidence, including signed (not stamped)
   letters in perfect German?


    The full article from which this is excerpted may be seen at

http://www.nizkor.org/features/denial-of-science/appendix-1.html

    Posted/emailed.

    Well, that's all for tonight, but I'll see if I can't serve up John 
Ball and Friedrich Berg tomorrow.

    Are we having fun yet? 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Oct  3 08:37:05 PDT 1996
Article: 71041 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news1.wtn.mci.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Revisionist Def Comedy Jam - Part 2
Date: 2 Oct 1996 20:25:29 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 119
Message-ID: <52v15p$me6@access5.digex.net>
References: <52rqmc$ka2@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <52t8pf$i6t@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <52t8pf$i6t@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>By the way, NO group of people paraphrase and quote out of context more
>than supporters of the Holocaust.  They have years of experience at this
>little game.

    Oh, I am SO glad you brought this up.

In article , 30 Sep 94, Michael A. Hoffman
II (hoffman2nd@delphi.com), author of "The Great Holocaust Trial," wrote: 

"Goeth was arrested for murder, corruption and theft by the SS
investigative team headed by the great German Judge Konrad Morgen."

   I knew about the corruption and theft arrest, but not the murder
charge.  When I asked for sources for the above statement, Hoffman offered
p. 845 of Rubin Ainsztein's "Jewish Resistance in Nazi-Occupied Europe," 
and affidavits by Konrad Morgen and Kurt Mittelstaedt.

   Ainsztein had this to say:

     "Between 2,000 and 3,000 prisoners were brought from the
  Montelupich Prison to Plaszow for execution during Goeth's reign,
  which ended on 13 September 1944, when he was arrested by the SS
  court of Cracow on charges of having stolen large amounts of money,
  valuables, clothes and furniture belonging to his Jewish prisoners,
  which he should have delibered to the SS Administration of Concentration
  Camps."

     Source: Ainsztein, Reuben.  "Jewish Resistance in Nazi-Occupied
Europe" [Harper & Row, 1974], p. 845.

    No mention of murder in that source at all.  Let's move on to Morgen.

(From Affidavit SS-65 by SS Judge Georg Konrad Morgen, IMT Vol. 42,
p. 556.  Translation mine, with help from Ulrich Roessler.)

   Individual acts of a criminal nature - under the circumstances
   with wide effects - were the assumption of a license to kill by
   commandants and subordinate positions covered up through
   falsification of medical death certificates.  Arbitrary conduct,
   chicanery, unlawful corporal punishments, acts of brutality and
   sadism, liquidation of no-longer-convenient accomplices, thievery
   and black-market profiteering. All these offenses were committed
   both alone by prisoners as well as SS members, most however in
   close partnership by SS members with Capos and vice versa.

   4.   The intervention of SS jurisdiction in the KZ was brought on
   with the beginning of my investigations in July 43 and lasted
   until the end of the war.  It could not have started earlier,
   because there was no suspicion along these lines.

   Arrested were the commandants of Buchenwald, Lublin, Warschau,
   Herzogenbosch, Krakau-Plaszow.  The commandants of Buchenwald and
   Lublin were shot.  More than a hundred cases were brought to a
   verdict.  Serious and maximum punishments were imposed on members
   of all ranks. [...]

My comment at the time:

     Oh, dear.  Mr. Hoffman said that "Verification of the arrest,
prosecution, and imprisonment of Goeth may be found ... in the testimony
of Morgen himself."  Arrest, yes.  But on what charges?  Seems Judge
Morgen doesn't unequivocally support Hoffman's claim that Goeth was
charged with murder either.  There's a laundry list of offenses and a list
of the most prominent offenders (listed only by camp, not personal name)
but no specific charges lodged against any specific individual.



    Last, Mittelstaedt's affidavit, supplied by Mr. Hoffman after I
erroneously assumed he was talking about NO-1875:

The following was written by Kurt Mittelstaedt, SSJudge Konrad Morgens
superior officer, circa December, 1945. It is from a U.S. Army War
Crimes investigations document. Mittelstaedt was chief of the highest SS
Court in the H.A.G. (at Munich):

"The investigations conducted by SSJudges led to about 200 sentencings of
SS members...The following overview makes clear in a short summary the
extent and goals of the investigations...Plaszow and Scebnie near Crakow: 
investigations against the commandant, members of the commandantures and
he former SS and Police Fuehrer of Warsaw, SSOberfuehrer Scherner, because
of killing and abuse of prisoners and because of crimes of corruption." 

My comment at the time:

    Unfortunately this suffers from the same problem as Morgen's
affidavit, plus another one.  There is a fairly long list of people (not
only Commandant Goeth and the commandant of Scebnie, but members of the
commandantures) followed by a list of crimes, with no clear way to link
specific names with specific crimes.  (The Morgen affidavit also suffered
>from  this problem.)  Also, the Mittelstaedt affidavit in any event talks
not about *indictments* but *investigations*.  Even if Goeth *was*
investigated for murder, this does not mean that he was - as Hoffman
claimed - *arrested* for it (that is, the investigation turned up enough
evidence for the SS to bring the charge).  So again this document does
not say as much as Hoffman thinks it does.

    Once more I *must* emphasize that I do not claim that any of this
proves that Goeth *wasn't* charged with murder - only that this point has
not been definitely established yet.  But I am on solid ground in saying
Mr. Hoffman was reading too much into the documents he has; they are too
ambiguous to *prove* that Goeth was charged with anything other than
corruption, which is all that the unambiguous sources - Keneally and
Ainsztein - say.  I frankly doubt it, but I'm ready to be convinced
otherwise by an unambigous document.



    The full context of the discussion can be seen at

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/h/hoffman.michael/mh2.0994, mh2.1094,
and mh2.1194.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Oct  3 08:37:06 PDT 1996
Article: 71110 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.orst.edu!newshub.tc.umn.edu!spool.mu.edu!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Revisionist Def Comedy Jam - Part 1
Date: 2 Oct 1996 20:00:47 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 104
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In article <52t8pf$i6t@juliana.sprynet.com>,  wrote: 
>By the way, NO group of people paraphrase and quote out of context more
>than supporters of the Holocaust.  They have years of experience at this
>little game.

    Oh, I am SO glad you brought this up.


Greg Raven, Associate Editor of the Journal for Historical Review, was
presented with a number of testimonies, including that of SS man Hans
Bo"ck. On the subject of Bo"ck, Raven wrote: 

     "Pressac himself casts doubt on some of the aspects
     of this statement, pointing out, for example, that
     Boeck could only have witnessed one such gassing (at
     most)."

This is a paraphrase - and worse, a paraphrase with no page number.
Someone who wanted to see if the paraphrase accurately reflected the
original would have to read through the whole book to find it.  I raised
this question in a reply to Raven's rebuttal:

     "Is 'at most' in Pressac's original text, or is it a clever insertion on
     Mr. Raven's part, as we are only presented with a paraphrase, not a 
     direct quote, and no exact page citation to make it easy to check 
     the accuracy of it, so that if we want to verify it for ourselves we 
     must take the time to read Pressac cover to cover?"


Raven's scornful reply:

     "Well, if you were familiar with Pressac's book, you would find it
     relatively easy to locate the text, as it is in the section on SS
     testimonies. Lacking that familiarity, you could have referred to
     Faurisson's long review of Pressac's book, which appeared in two 
     parts in the Journal of Historical Review."

Apparently Mr. Raven feels that I should be intimately familiar with
Pressac's book, and if not, magically know what secondary source would
tell me where to find the part I'm looking for.  Perhaps it would be
reading too much into this, but one could easily get the impression Raven
is being condescending, saying that if *I* were as good a historian as
*he*, I would be familiar with Pressac's book and know where to look - so
he need not (and still does not) bother to tell me the page, as an amateur
like myself is not worth wasting his valuable time on.  The most he will
do for me is tell me to look in the section on SS testimonies. 

    That's one way of reading Raven's response.  But Dr. Faurisson, the 
expert on texts, teaches us that there are other ways.  And indeed, there 
is.

    I do not read it as the condescension of a professional historian to
an amateur.  I read it as a desperate bluff.  He won't tell me the page
not because I'm not worth bothering with, but because he knows that once
the true text of this book (which even Friedrich Berg has noted is hard
for the average person to find) is compared with Raven's paraphrase, he
will have no credibility left.  He is terrified that if he gives me any
help at all, I will be able to expose him, and is desperately praying that
I don't have access to a copy.

    Apparently Mr. Raven does not realize that I live in the area of
Washington, DC, home of the Library of Congress and the Holocaust Museum
library.  While the Library of Congress copy is missing, the Museum has
not one but two copies in its library.  I do have some familiarity with
Pressac's book, and I have actually known for some time that Raven's
paraphrase bears no relation to what Pressac really says, other than
containing the words "gassings," "see," and "one" (in that order).

    I also know that "the" section on SS testimonies does not exist -
there is one set of testimonies on Krema I which includes SS men Pery
Broad and Rudolf Ho"ss, along with Sonderkommando members Alter
Fajnzylberg and - if memory serves - Filip Muller.  The discussion of
Broad is on p. 128 (not 124 as Raven had it).

     Here is the full text of Pressac's comments on Bo"ck's testimony,
found not in "the section on SS testimonies," but all the way over on page
181 of the English language edition:

     "There is only one clue to show that the scene took place at Bunker 
     2: 'a long farmhouse'.  In this type of account, this is already a 
     good deal.  SS Bo"ck seems to have been a decent enough man.  The 
     gassing of children upset him so much that he saw the SS medical 
     orderlies 'climb on the roof' (they did not climb so high) and did 
     not look at his wife for four weeks.  Not everyone is cut out to be 
     an executioner.  Hermann Langbein writes: 

         'Bo"ck is the only witness who demonstrated a sincere aversion 
         before the court.' 

     I would ask just one question: 'How many gassings did Bo"ck see?'  
     If he only saw the one described before the court, it is not so 
     surprising that his 'aversion' should remain intact.  If he had 
     been forced by his duties to see them regularly, his attitude might 
     be different.  It is all too easy to become hardened." 


    Pressac's text speaks for itself.  It certainly does not need Raven to 
speak for it.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Oct  3 08:37:07 PDT 1996
Article: 71111 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Revisionist Def Comedy Jam - Part 3
Date: 2 Oct 1996 20:39:32 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <52v204$7ga@access5.digex.net>
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In article <52t8pf$i6t@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>By the way, NO group of people paraphrase and quote out of context more
>than supporters of the Holocaust.  They have years of experience at this
>little game. 

    Oh, I am SO glad you brought this up.  Next on our hit parade is Mark
Weber, editor of the Journal of Historical Review:

     H.) "Gitta Sereny, another Jewish historian, noted in her book Into
     That Darkness: 'The universally accepted story that the corpses
     were used to make soap and fertilizer is finally refuted by the
     generally very reliable Ludwigsburg Central Authority for
     Investigation into Nazi Crimes.'" (Weber, JHR 11, Summer 1991, p. 
     222)

   The first part of that quotation is pure overstatement on Sereny's
   part: it was never "universally accepted," and she should not have
   phrased it that way. But what is most important is that Weber neglects
   to include Sereny's next sentence in his quotation. She continued:
   "The Authority has found after considerable research that only one
   experiment was made, with a few corpses from a concentration camp.
   When it proved impractical the idea was apparently abandoned.'" (Into
   That Darkness, p. 141n)


In other words, Weber silently conceals that Sereny does not support him
completely.  Quote out of context in my book.

    The entire article from which this was drawn may be seen at

http://www.nizkor.org/features/denial-of-science/soap-01.html

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Oct  3 14:08:00 PDT 1996
Article: 71418 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!news.nstn.ca!thor.atcon.com!pumpkin.pangea.ca!eru.mt.luth.se!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Let's Not Be Beastly to the Germans
Date: 3 Oct 1996 10:00:54 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 17
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In article <5300c4$kvr@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:

[catalogue of tortures deleted which, if they had been asserted by Soviets
or Holocaust survivors, would have been called laughable by Matt Giwer and
R. "Soviet Def Comedy Jam" Blackmore]

>How absurd and ignorant it is for Nizkor to claims that confession
> were never extracted from the Germans by coercion or torture!

    Please show us where Nizkor makes that claim.  I don't recall seeing
it.  Are you sure you're not seriously misreading something?

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Oct  3 15:55:31 PDT 1996
Article: 71440 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer - Lies and more net abuse.....
Date: 3 Oct 1996 12:13:25 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <530on5$a5i@access5.digex.net>
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In article <325147cb.898573@199.0.216.204>,
tom moran  wrote:
>kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
>
>>In article , 
>>rajiv_gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca (Rajiv K. Gandhi) wrote:
>>
>>>   (ie. Giwer got kicked of Netcom, joined ATT, change the address in his
>>
>>Troll still has a netcom account - he simply isn't using it to
>>post news.
>
>	Giwer, check out Nizkor. Home page > names > m > moran. Take note
>of where McVay has given top priority to exposing himself as a
>"troll".
>
>	Also check out "Moran/Nizkor Website - coming up" under which
>there is a bit of saying they were trolling.

    Well, Tommy, you asked us what "trolling" meant, and several people
generously took it upon themselves to teach you.  The method they chose
just happened to be teaching by example.  Now it is time for a pop quiz to
find out if you need more lessons.  Can you now give us a definition of
trolling, or are you still unable to figure it out?

    In my opinion, you really should show more gratitude for what people
have done, entirely out of the goodness of their own hearts, to contribute
to your quest for knowledge.  Remember, you did ask.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Oct  4 07:06:14 PDT 1996
Article: 71483 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!news.rmii.com!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Revisionist Def Comedy Jam - Part 5
Date: 3 Oct 1996 19:03:33 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 87
Message-ID: <531go5$qjl@access5.digex.net>
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In article <52t8pf$i6t@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>By the way, NO group of people paraphrase and quote out of context more
>than supporters of the Holocaust.  They have years of experience at this
>little game. 

    Oh, I am SO glad you brought this up.  As promised, we resume with
Friedrich Berg of diesel exhaust fame.

  Berg:

     If you operate above the Normal Operating Range of fuel/air ratios,
     you produce excessive quantities of smoke rapidly. That is why I
     referred to the discussion by E.W. Landen at the end of the Elliott
     and Davis paper and why I included his diagram as well. At fuel/air
     ratios beyond about 0.055, the smoke "solid" line becomes almost
     vertical and that means, according to Landen on page 346: "short
     engine life."

   Is he even right in the first place about the amount of smoke?
   Let's turn to Holtz and Elliot (a work Berg cited), page 101:

       TABLE 4           FREE CARBON IN THE EXHAUST GASES
                         FROM ENGINE B

                         Free carbon in dry exhaust gases
       Fuel-air ratio    Lb per lb                Lb per 1000
        lb per lb         of fuel                   cu ft
          0.01             0.060                    0.047
          0.02             0.034                    0.053
          0.03             0.019                    0.046
          0.04             0.021                    0.068
          0.05             0.029                    0.117
          0.06             0.044                    0.213
          0.07             0.066                    0.361
          0.08             0.091                    0.576

   Let's look at that graph on solid components of smoke Berg talks
   about. At a fuel/air ratio of 0.05, the graph shows 4 grams exhausted
   solid material per hour. At about 0.57, the graph shows above 16 grams
   - more than a factor of four.

   Is that true? Look at the numbers above. At 0.05, the middle column
   shows 0.029. At 0.06 fuel-air ratio, the middle column shows 0.044.
   That's only 1.5 times the 0.05 output, not four times! Even at 0.07,
   the output is only 2.3 times as much as the 0.05 output.

   So something appears to be wrong with the graph Berg uses. Either it
   was done wrong, or done from different engines than in the
   Holtz-Elliot paper.

   Scott Mullins pointed out why it was done wrong. The graph Berg cites
   had its units in grams per hour - that is, the total output by weight.
   But Berg has cackled gleefully about how it's the percentage of CO in
   exhaust that determines lethality, not total volume. (An
   oversimplification, by the way - there are other factors such as
   pressure.) Thus he should know very well that it is the percentage of
   soot in the exhaust which gives short engine life, not the gross
   amount - especially since his own reference makes this point.

   Berg is definitely distorting Landen by quoting out of context -
   another technique of Holocaust denial. Let's turn to page 346 of the
   Elliot-Davis paper, and see the entire context of the words "short
   engine life."


     "[T]he quantities of material sticking in an engine in the form of
     deposits amounts to possibly 0.0001% or 0.01% of the fuel burned.
     The 0.0001% figure corresponds to an engine with a normal life while
     the 0.01% figure means short engine life due to heavy deposits."

   Now, this is the percentage sticking in the engine, not the percent
   exhausted, and again it is a percentage of fuel burned, not total
   volume per hour. So Berg's graph is another red herring. Note that
   even if the amount of soot as a percentage of fuel burned were
   constant, when measured in grams per hour, doubling the fuel/air
   ratio will double the weight of output.

For the full article, which discusses other errors and omissions by Berg,
refer to:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/denial-of-science/diesel-1.html

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Oct  4 07:06:15 PDT 1996
Article: 71500 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!n3ott.istar!imci2!news1.wtn.mci.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!feed1.news.erols.com!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Revisionist Def Comedy Jam - Part 7
Date: 3 Oct 1996 20:40:30 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 80
Message-ID: <531mdu$7cc@access5.digex.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <52t8pf$i6t@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>By the way, NO group of people paraphrase and quote out of context more
>than supporters of the Holocaust.  They have years of experience at this
>little game. 

    Oh, I am SO glad you brought this up.  Let's peek in on David Irving,
shall we?

    In "Hitler's War," Irving claimed that Hitler ordered an end to the
liquidation of Jewish transports stopped, offering a telephone log in
support.  Lucy Davidowicz tells what happened when she went fact-checking:

   [O]ne example will suffice to show his "scholarly" method.  As
   seemingly irrefutable proof for his case, Mr.  Irving offered an
   entry in Himmler's handwritten telephone log.  On November 30, 1941,
   at 1:30 P.M., Himmler, then in Hitler's military headquarters bunker
   'Wolf's Lair,' telephoned SS Obergruppenfu"hrer Heydrich, then in
   Prague.  The gist of the telephone message was entered in four short
   lines in the log, though Mr.  Irving cited only the last two lines:

   Judentransport aus Berlin
   keine Liquidierung

   That is: 'Transport of Jews from Berlin. No liquidation.'

   From this Mr.  Irving concluded that Hitler had somehow learned what
   Himmler was up to and had ordered him to stop.  An obedient Nazi,
   Himmler had called Heydrich in Prague to transmit Hitler's order.
   But in view of everything we know about the destruction of the Jews,
   Irving's construction of events makes no sense.  If Himmler continued
   to kill the Jews long after November 30, 1941, why did he order the
   liquidation of this one transport stopped?  If he deceived Hitler
   before and after about the murder of the Jews, why should he be
   honest about it this once?  Besides, what became of that transport of
   Jews from Berlin?  Were they returned home?  Irving's conclusion
   fails to provide a satisfactory explanation of those two lines in
   view of what actually happened, though it serves to support his
   perversely fanciful interpretation of Hitler's character.

   To understand those two lines it is necessary to read also the first
   two lines of the telephone conversation.  Here is the full German
   text:

   Verhaftung Dr. Jekelius [name not fully decipherable]
   Angebl [ich] Sohn Molotovs.
   Judentransport aus Berline.
   keine Liquidierung.<37>

   That is: Arrest Dr. Jekelius.  Presumably Molotov's son.  Transport
   of Jews from Berlin. No liquidation.

   The last two lines now make sense.  Himmler called Heydrich to
   instruct him that a certain Dr.  Jekelius, presumed to be the Soviet
   Foreign Minister's son, was to be taken in custody by the security
   police.  Jekelius could be located in the transport of Jews from
   Berlin arriving in Prague  and, unlike the
   rest of the transport, was not to be liquidated.  (Perhaps the
   Germans intended to exchange Jekelius for one of their officers
   captured by the Russians.)

   Irving, wittingly or unwittingly, has in fact disproved his own
   theory.  For if Hitler was indeed responsible for Himmler's call
   (there is no evidence that he was), then Irving has shown that Hitler
   did in fact know all about the murder of the Jews.  And indeed, how
   else could it have been?  The murder of the Jews was Hitler's most
   consistent policy, in whose execution he persisted relentlessly, and
   obsessiveness with the Jews may even ahve cost him his war for the
   'Thousand Year Reich.'"


    The entire article from which the above was drawn may be found at:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/i/irving.david/dawidowicz/
dawidowicz-on-irving

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Oct  4 07:06:15 PDT 1996
Article: 71501 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Revisionist Def Comedy Jam - Part 6
Date: 3 Oct 1996 20:30:57 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 80
Message-ID: <531ls1$700@access5.digex.net>
References: <52rqmc$ka2@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net> <52t8pf$i6t@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <52t8pf$i6t@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>By the way, NO group of people paraphrase and quote out of context more
>than supporters of the Holocaust.  They have years of experience at this
>little game. 

    Oh, I am SO glad you brought this up.  Next batter up to the plate is
John Ball.


                 SCHINDLER'S LIST EXPOSED AS LIES AND HATE
                 Air photos show Spielberg's movie fiction.
                        By John Ball - photo expert.

      PLASZOW CAMP (pronounced PLASH-OFF in Polish)

      THE CAMP IN THE MOVIE, RE-BUILT FROM DESCRIPTIONS OF ALLEGED
      EYE-WITNESSES, is surrounded by a steep hill so it is not
      visible from outside, where inmates are shot by Commander Goeth
      from the front balcony of his house on a hill above the
      barracks.  The movie version is surrounded by a steep hillside
      that prevented outsiders from seeing inmates.  Commander Goeth,
      on his front balcony, is seen shooting working and relaxing
      inmates beside the barracks in the inmates' camp.  [See
      file 1.GIF]

      1944 AIR PHOTOS SHOW the camp was visible through wire fences
      from 3 villages.  Goeth could not have shot inmates from his
      house balcony, as the house was at the bottom of a hill and he
      COULD NOT SEE OVER OR AROUND THE HILL INTO THE INMATES' CAMP.
      The camp was located next to Cracow city, beside a major
      roadway, and was visible from hundreds of houses in 3
      surrounding villages.  [See file 2.GIF]

      Photo 1.  1994: In the movie, Goeth's balcony is above the camp
      and surrounded by a steep hill.

      Photo 2.  1943: Goeth on his balcony.  His house is to the right
      and the hill is to the left of the photo.  The hill blocked the
      view to the inmates' camp, and the hill, trees, and house behind
      Goeth in the photo blocked the view to the guards' camp.

      Photo 7.  1943: Taken from location number 18 on the map.  Front
      left = limestone open cut in hillside with rail line entering.
      Goeth's house (12) was left of photo at bottom of the hill
      around the corner.  From Goeth's balcony, none of the buildings
      in the photo were visible.  ...

  I would very much like to know why Mr. Ball failed to notice the
following text from pages 191-192 of the book:

     The first morning Commandant Goeth stepped out his front door and
     murdered a prisoner at random, there was a tendency to see this
     also, like the first execution on Chujowa Go'rka, as a unique event,
     discrete from what would become the customary life of the camp. In
     fact, of course, the killings on the hill would soon prove to be
     habitual, and so would Amon's morning routine.

     Wearing a shirt and riding breeches and boots on which his orderly
     had put a high shine, he would emerge on the steps of his temporary
     villa. (They were renovating a better place for him down at the
             =======================================================
     other end of the camp perimeter.)
     ===============================


    In other words, the house in Mr. Ball's photos was the permanent
residence - not the temporary residence from which the shots were fired.

    For the full article from which the above was drawn, see:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/denial-of-science/schindler-1.html

You'll get revisionists Jack Wikoff and Ross Vicksell as a special added
bonus. 

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Oct  4 07:06:16 PDT 1996
Article: 71503 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Those strange "lights"
Date: 3 Oct 1996 20:54:03 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <531n7b$7q5@access5.digex.net>
References: <52t6la$i6t@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <52t6la$i6t@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>From the "statement" of SS Brigadefuehrer and Generalmajor of the German 
>Police, Ernst Rode.
>
> After his capture and interrogation, Herr Rode was persuaded to make a
>long statement concerning German responses to partisan terror on the 
>Eastern front.  The statement is known as document 3715-PS, and has 
>the revealing trademark of what one would expect to see in an "induced"
>confession.  I will simply quote the relevant parts:

[snip]

>There should be little dispute with any of the above: [...]

>However, the final paragraph to this statement is one I find to be
>curiously worded: 
>
>"Today it is clear to me that anti-partisan warfare gradually became an
>excuse for the systematic annihilation of Jewry and Slavism." 
>
>Well, take it for what it is worth.  This "idea" was not clear to Herr
>Rode during the time he was actually involved in fighting the
>partisans-only AFTER his capture and interrogation by the "Allies".  I
>wonder what made him suddenly see the light- perhaps the light was
>induced by seeing "stars" floating around one's head after receiving a
>few good blows to the same.  I would be curious to know when, where, and
>by whom Rode was interrogated, and whether he was ever charged with
>crimes or not.  This might shed a whole different light on the subject. 

    I don't see the problem.  That does not seem to me to be too far from
the IHR position - that the Einsatzgruppen shootings, though systematic,
were not a deliberate attempt to exterminate the Jews, but an excess of
enthusiasm in eliminating the partisan threat.

    Who has been torturing Greg Raven?

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Oct  4 07:06:17 PDT 1996
Article: 71511 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Human skin LAMPSHADE STORY A CRUEL AND VULGAR HOAX
Date: 3 Oct 1996 21:41:17 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <531pvt$a1l@access5.digex.net>
References: <32414E2D.728@rio.com> <51tavc$s8n@juliana.sprynet.com> <523s8h$nom@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <523s8h$nom@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 20 Sep 1996 05:44:12 GMT, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>
>>>   Chuck Ferree  writes:
>>>  Chuck Ferree writes:
>>>  
>>>  Her husband, the commandant of Buchenwald was executed by the SS? I 
>>>  didn't know that, and I think I still don't know that. 
>>>  
>>I see that you still don't know that those lamp-shades you saw were fakes.>  
>>> 
>
>>>  > Of course your response was a non-response-seeing that her husband 
>>>  > had been executed by the SS.
>>>  
>>>  Another fairy tale from the "scholor of the year!"
>
>>Really?  Ask your friends at Nizkor about it.  I think they will be 
>>honest enough in this case to burst your bubble.
>
>	No, they are not that honest.  They will never disagree on any 
>substantive issue with each other.  In nearly a year now, the most I have
>seen is a disagreement on "how guilty were they."  

    Given Mr. Giwer's vision problems, as proved by his uproarious
misreading of the photograph "fndaerab.jpg," the wonder is rather that Mr.
Giwer can see anything at all.  (Further evidence of Mr. Giwer's vision
problems can be found on his website.  At that, it's somewhat improved
>from  when he first announced it.)


    Karl Koch was indeed executed by the SS.  I mentioned this myself, in
message id <4qrh8k$36h@access5.digex.net> posted 26th June 96 under the
subject Re: NIZKOR AND DENIERS.  DejaNews has a copy.


    I suppose that I should also mention that Mr. Giwer is not
_completely_ dishonest.  He was once honest enough to admit that he
deliberately lied. 

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html

    A small collection of the lies he has not admitted to are at: 

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

This collection is far from exhaustive.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Oct  4 07:06:18 PDT 1996
Article: 71513 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!news.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!newshost.convex.com!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: Get your FREE copy today!
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 3 Oct 1996 21:51:47 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <531qjj$ah9@access5.digex.net>
References: <5245fm$34c@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <52actl$8u1@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <52c4dp$ktc@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <52feqh$efp@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:32099 alt.politics.white-power:45676 alt.revisionism:71513 alt.skinheads:38759 alt.usenet.kooks:29717

In article <52feqh$efp@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 25 Sep 1996 20:24:25 GMT, libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson)
>wrote:
>
>>Matt  Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>>: On 22 Sep 1996 19:53:26 GMT, bb748@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Milton Kleim) 
>>: wrote:
>
>>: >William L. Pierce, Ph.D., the author, thinks you're supposed to PAY for
>>: >his hateful book.  Someone has seen to it you don't have to. 
>>: 
>>: >Normally $12, available to you free of charge at:
>
>>: 	Thank you.
>>: 
>>: 	It has been reported.  
>
>>So now you're netcopping for the National Alliance, Matt?
>
>>Gee--first you make pudding out of your claim that you aren't an
>>antisemite, and now it looks like you're gonna do the same for 
>>your claim that you're not a nazi.  This should be fun.
>

> I report simple theft of intellectual property that is in violation of
>US and international law regarding protection of intellectual property. 

    In that case, I am sure you will want to report the egregious
violation found at

http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer2/bcat1.html

    The ruffian even openly declares:

"So its not mine. I intend to stay in violation of copyright until Bloom
County returns.  Understand?"

    Funny how the owner of that website has the same name as you do.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Oct  4 07:06:19 PDT 1996
Article: 71514 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Twelve Year Grace Period / revised
Date: 3 Oct 1996 22:30:30 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 101
Message-ID: <531ss6$bk6@access5.digex.net>
References: <32514570.295551@199.0.216.204> <32520C1A.15FB@itsa.ucsf.edu> <3253c7e3.262980@199.0.216.204>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <3253c7e3.262980@199.0.216.204>,
tom moran  wrote:
>Brian Harmon  wrote:
>
>>tom moran wrote:
>>In case you're webless, i'll include a snippet here:
>>
>>===========
>>Message-ID: 
>>
>>Indeed. The first estimate, and the one most cited by Holocaust deniers as
>>"proof" that death toll at Auschwitz has been significantly revised
>>downwards,  was made on May 8, 1945, by the Soviet Extraordinary State
>>Commission. The Soviet estimate, however, was made purely on the base of
>>the following calculus involving the estimated daily incineration capacity
>>and the number of days the Kremas were in operation (_Anatomy_, pp.61,
>>65):
>>
>>Krema I ....... 300 bodies per day; 720 days.
>>Krema II .... 3,000 bodies per day; 570 days.
>>Krema III ... 3,000 bodies per day; 540 days.
>>Krema IV .... 1,500 bodies per day, 510 days.
>>Krema V ..... 1,500 bodies per day, 540 days.
>>
>>By multiplying the number of the daily incineration capacity of bodies per
>>day by the number of days, for each Krema, a total of 5.121 million deaths
>>was obtained. Then assuming the Kremas were used at 4/5 their capacity the
>>death toll of 4.097 million was obtained. 
>>==========
>
>	Right about now Mr.Harmon had to take a wiff on the oxygen tank
>he keeps around when he gets out of breath typing his anxieties.

    Right about now little Tommy can't think of anything intelligent to
say, so he has to make smart alec remarks about the other person like a
little schoolboy to cover up the fact that he can't answer.

    Silly Tommy can't even figure out that a) the above was written by Mr.
Van Alstine, and b) Mr. Harmon didn't have to type it, he just copied it
in.



[snip]

>>Hilberg wrote as early as 1961 that the Auschwitz death toll was 
>>about 1 million in his book "The Destruction of the European Jews"
>>
>>Reitlinger called the soviet 4 million figure 'ludicrous' as early
>>as 1958, and estimated the auschwitz death toll at about 800,000
>>to 900,000.
>>
>>You're dreaming if you think that the 'accepted version' of history
>>insisted that four million died at auschwitz until a short while ago.
>
>	The Auschwitz Museum entrance carried a sign saying 4,000,000
>died there up until just a few years ago. Your the one that's
>'dreaming', lying.

    So the Auschwitz Museum is the one which determines what the accepted
version of history is, no matter what anyone else says?



>	If one book uses figures that say 3,000,000 Jews died at
>Auschwitz, then they must have figures for other camps and the "field"
>that will add up to 6,000,000.

    No, Tommy.  The way I have seen them get to 6,000,000 is by adding up
the loss from each country except for those known to have emigrated. 
Before the war there were so many Jews here, so many there.  After the war
there weren't as many.  A million lost from Russia, three million lost
>from  Poland, somewhere around half a million from Hungary, and so on.  But
we don't know for sure how many Polish Jews died in Auschwitz, and how
many died in Treblinka, and how many died in little labor camps you never
even heard of.  There are just estimates.

[...]

>>>         Is it a fantastic coincidence that the new Auschwitz numbers were
>>> arrived at around 1980 and a whole slue of new books appeared around
>>> the same time?
>>
>>Isn't it a fantastic coincidence that you provide no evidence
>>for this assertion?
>
>	Its all right there, available for anyone to check.

    Mr. Harmon gave you five books from before 1980 which had lower
numbers, one from 1958.

    But earlier you implied the accepted history was set at the Auschwitz
museum "a few years ago."  Now you say it's 1980.  You're contradicting
yourself, Tommy.  And you know contradictions are a sure sign that
something is fishy.


-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Oct  4 07:06:19 PDT 1996
Article: 71515 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Einsatzgruppen Reports - OSR USSR #45
Date: 3 Oct 1996 22:38:58 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <531tc2$bqu@access5.digex.net>
References: <324ee686.6878937@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <5302jq$kvr@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <5302jq$kvr@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>>   jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) writes:
>>  rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>>  
>>  >>   klewis@awinc.com (Ken Lewis) writes:
>>  >>  The Chief of the Security Police and the SD
>>    
>>  >>  Berlin, August 7, 1941
>>   
>>  >Your point?
>>  
>>  Jews were specially singled out for execution.
>>  
>>  Reprisal killings are war crimes.
>>  
>>  --
>>   John Morris                               
>>   at University of Alberta     
>>  -- 
>>  The Nizkor Project     | http://www.nizkor.org/
>>  
>>>>>
>Then why did the French announce in 1945:  if any Germans were caught
>committing acts of resistance against the French occupation army, that 10
>Germans would be shot for every Frenchman killed?

    Tit for tat?

    I would like to take this opportunity to call people's attention to
the Nizkor "fallacies" feature.  For this one, see:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem-tu-quoque.html
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Oct  4 07:06:20 PDT 1996
Article: 71516 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More provocation
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 3 Oct 1996 22:56:45 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <531udd$cbh@access5.digex.net>
References: <52f1up$gpf@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <52f1up$gpf@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>The US, Warren Christopher has asked that the tourist attraction tunnel be
>closed in the interests fo peace but the answer of Israel is a flat no, a
>refusal to remove the cause of the rioting.  

    You are very strange to think that tunnels cause riots.

    Are you telling us that you would be seized by an uncontrollable and
instinctive urge to riot if a tunnel opened near your house?

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Oct  4 07:06:21 PDT 1996
Article: 71517 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.lebanon,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Israeli incitement provocation
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 3 Oct 1996 23:01:43 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <531umn$ciq@access5.digex.net>
References: <52hecd$cov@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <52k1r9$c44@bellboy.ucc.uconn.edu> <324DA93E.50AF@worldnet.att.net> <52koav$69m@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:71517 soc.culture.israel:45266 soc.culture.lebanon:26144 soc.culture.jewish:79273

In article <52koav$69m@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Sat, 28 Sep 1996 15:39:58 -0700, Ghazi Salah Adine 
>wrote:
>>Mr.
>>What do you think Israel do. She whimpers about the holocaust which was 
>>according to Jewish scholar perpetrated with the full Knowledge of Jews 
>>world wide. Please excuse me, But I don't think you come from decent 
>>background either.
>	
>	It is rather amazing that the common knowledge is so well hidden 
>by these holohuggers.  They can not be so stupid or so ignorant as they
>pretend on alt.revisionism.  

    Well, at least _we_ have to _pretend_ to be stupid.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Oct  4 07:06:22 PDT 1996
Article: 71547 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 960927: How did a cow get on my roof?
Date: 3 Oct 1996 23:13:16 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <531vcc$d4e@access5.digex.net>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2953 alt.revisionism:71547

In article ,
E. Zundel Repost  wrote:
>The Zundelgrams are posted to alt.fan.ernst-zundel and alt.revisionism
>daily, unedited. The opinions expressed do not represent the views of the
>poster, who is not the author. See X-Headers for relevant URLs. A good
>place to start is http://www.nizkor.org/features/ or, if you're in Europe,
>http://www1.de.nizkor.org/nizkor/
>
>------------ BEGIN ZUNDELGRAM MESSAGE ------------
>
>September 27, 1996
>
>Good Morning from the Zundelsite:

[snip]

>But Senior Bart, perfecting chutzpah, would simply turn the accusation on
>its head, look innocent, smile through his toothless gums, and ask:
>
>"Are you accusing ME?  Did you say cow?  Whose cow?  How did manure get on
>my roof?"  Only he didn't say "manure";  his churlish boomerang was quite a
>masterpiece in Yiddish.

    He was speaking Yiddish to his (presumably) Argentinian landlord?  How
very interesting.  And Ingrid was there to hear the conversation?  They
had it in the shop at which she worked?  What an a amazing coincidence. 

    Posted/emailed to Ingrid Rimland.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Oct  4 07:06:23 PDT 1996
Article: 71549 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!hookup!pravda.aa.msen.com!spool.mu.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionist Def Comedy Jam - Part 2
Date: 3 Oct 1996 09:41:47 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <530fqr$53n@access5.digex.net>
References: <52v15p$me6@access5.digex.net> <52vp9q$gs4@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <52vp9q$gs4@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>>   mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) writes:
>
>(snip)
>>  
>>  
>
>>>>>

>This posting of yours interests me, so I will research it further.  I
>happen to have other affadavits and statements by Morgen somewhere.  I
>hope to get to this asap. 

    That's nice, but the critical issue here is not Morgen and Goeth, but
your smear that "NO group of people paraphrase and quote out of context
more than supporters of the Holocaust."  I showed how "revisionist" 
Michael Hoffman misrepresented his source.  Perhaps you would care to
address _that_ issue?  (I'll save his provable deliberate lie - albeit on
a matter not related to the Holocaust - for later.) 
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Oct  4 17:24:54 PDT 1996
Article: 71675 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news1.wtn!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Is that GAS I smell, or a rotten mackerel?
Date: 4 Oct 1996 15:41:24 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 125
Message-ID: <533p94$okf@access5.digex.net>
References: <5305a6$kvr@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

    What _I_ smell is rotten logic.

In article <5305a6$kvr@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:

[snip]

>2.  We now see that Topf died a "suicide" while in American hands....how
>convenient.  I wonder if anyone can tell us a bit about Herr Topf's
>arrest, capture, and interrogation?  Also, the names and ranks of his
>captors and the complete circumstances surrounding his interrogation and
>alleged suicide.  "Botched"?...I think not.. What a web we weave...... 
>
>3.  We next read that Pruefer was set free (!), as well as receiving a
>commission to design a furnace for the allies!  How strange! 

    Yes.  I would think that if Topf was "suicided," as you insinuate,
Pruefer would have recieved similar treatment.

    Why do you think their fates were so different?


>4.  The Americans "failed" to understand Topf's "role".  I believe they
>understood his role quite well, that is why we are left with an alleged
>"suicide".  They simply wanted him out of the way.  They understood
>better than most that "loose tongues sink ships". 

    Excuse me, but they left Pruefer's loose lips running around.  You
really don't see the inconsistency in your position??????


>5.  Next we are told that Wolfgang Topf and Pruefer "apparently"
>destroyed all contracts with the SS.  Why "apparently"?  Perhaps these
>contracts were destroyed by people with other interests in mind.... 

    Lots of insinuation, no evidence.  We do have the letter from Topf to
the SS, talking about cyanide gas detectors for the Kremas.  Not their
normal line of business.  Rather strange.


>6.  Not to overlook the Soviet actions:  How curious that Erdmann escaped
>internment because he was a member of a communist union.

    Unjust, maybe, but hardly curious.


>Also, the early
>release dates for the other two captives simply proves that the whole
>arrest and trial of the other two gentleman was a complete FARCE, and was
>prompted by base political motives.

    It does?  How, praytell, did you reach that conclusion?  When a
criminal is paroled in this country after serving only a third of the
sentence, is that an admission that the person was really innocent? 


>Notice that the "evil" Braun was released in 1955!  No one knows what
>finally happened to Pruefer....apparently the Soviets advised him to
>conveniently "get lost".  The Soviets did not just "discern" Pruefer's
>role-they CREATED it.  Those Soviet Broadway show trials!

    Why no show trial for Pruefer, then?


>7.  The man Bischoff, as we are told, led a QUIET LIFE UNTIL 1950!  The
>infamous Bischoff, whose alleged communications are relentlessly promoted
>by Holocaust enthusiasts, was apparently kept under wraps for specific
>reasons.  No trial, no imprisonment, nothing-and why?  Because these
>communications amount to NOTHING.  NIL. 

    THIS IS HILARIOUS!  You tell us in one breath that those dirty Soviets
just _manufactured_ Pruefer's role (and, according to revisionist theory,
any too-explicit document such as the Jahrling memo or the letters from
Just and Becker to Rauff - the latter of which, BTW, Rauff seems to have
acknowledged as genuine in his 1972 deposition in Chile). In the next
breath you tell us that those honest, upstanding Soviets did nothing to
prosecute or help prosecute Bischoff because they had no evidence and they
knew it.

    Why didn't they just manufacture some, as we are told they did for
Demjanjuk? 

    You _really_ _don't_ see how you contradict yourself?


>8. Dejaco and Ertl were the two victims selected to "take the heat". 
>Underlings.  How apropos! 

    Yet that underling Pruefer was, according to you, simply told to "get
lost."  What, do you suppose they had a show trial victim quota, which
they used up before they got to Pruefer?

    Let me give you what I think is a much more promising line of
investigation.  Find out which side of the border each man lived on, and
who held the evidence.  As you may be aware, relations between the
Americans and the Soviets chilled rapidly after the war when Stalin
decided to keep what he had occupied. 

    If Bischoff lived on the west side of the line, and the file copy of
the memo to Kammler was languishing in the files in Auschwitz, the
nonprosecution would much more likely be because the people in the West
didn't even have _access_ to the incriminating document, not that they
knew about it but secretly knew that it wasn't really incriminating.


>9.  The trial in Vienna in January 1972 ended in the release and
>vindication of both.  How interesting..... 

    As I recall, Van Pelt had some interesting things to say about the
trial as well, namely that the prosecution did not know how to read the
plans through their design changes.  I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say
"vindication,"  unless you think O. J. Simpson has also been
vindicated.... 


>My thanks to Mr. Curtis.  Mazel tov!  By the way, what DID happen to
>Kammler? 

    At the moment, I don't know.  Which side of the border did Bischoff
live his "quiet life" on? 

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Oct  4 17:24:55 PDT 1996
Article: 71676 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news1.wtn!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.california,alt.christnet,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Ken, Ken...relax!
Followup-To: alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy
Date: 4 Oct 1996 15:57:51 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 38
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:71676 alt.california:28297 alt.christnet:111501 alt.conspiracy:95604

Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.california,alt.christnet,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Ken, Ken...relax!
Summary: 
Expires: 
References: <531s5l$cs2@nntp.crl.com>
Sender: 
Followup-To: 
Distribution: world
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Keywords: 
Cc: 

In article <531s5l$cs2@nntp.crl.com>, "Bob Goldstein" 
wrote:
>past postings
>> 
>> > The super hero Ken McVay will not debate Winston Smith on the fraud of 
>> >the Holocaust. Mcvay has retruned all Smith's e-mail and has run like the 
>> >communist pinko he is, with his tail behind his liberal legs.
>> 
>> Translation: another twit was entered into my mail filter, and
>> Howard Covington lacks the balls to post in public newsgroups.
>
>Now, Ken, you're clearly a smart fellow.  Don't get so upset.
>Why not debate Winston Smith?

    Why not ask "Winston" why he's so afraid to post in alt.revisionism
(or in a newsgroup appropriate to whatever topic he wants to debate)?  His
excuses don't wash.  Smith, in fact, ran away from someone who wanted to
debate him just because that person was black.  And right after saying
he'd like to specify "no ad hominems," he accused Andrew Mathis and Rich
Graves of being mentally incompetent and delusional, and said he wouldn't
debate them. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Oct  7 14:40:25 PDT 1996
Article: 72395 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Statistics, Statistics, dammed lies
Date: 7 Oct 1996 15:54:16 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 124
Message-ID: <53bn58$fs7@access5.digex.net>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article ,
Jeffrey   wrote:
>In message <199610021611.MAA16962@access5.digex.net>, "Michael P. Stein"
> writes
>>
>>    It looks as if we have another sufferer of Acquired Revisionist Myopia
>>Syndrome. 
>
>As usual, abuse. The usual response of the holocaust hate propagandists.

    Would you prefer I accused you of lying?  Remember, you denied leaving
out the part I said you left out.

    Reread the part below:


>>> >>"All together there were probably not more than half a million Jews
>>> >>transported out of Hungary." (Ho"ss, _Death Dealer_, p.46.) 
>>> >
>>> >    Funny how Jeff left that part out of his quote.
>>> 
>>> I didn,'t.....and it was quotes.

    Now, please explain what "I didn't" is supposed to mean in this
context?


>>    Got that?  Hoess ended by saying 500,000 was the _maximum_ number
>>actually transported.  Quite realistic.  You CONCEALED the fact that at
>>the end of the discussion, Hoess gave a not-at-all-impossible statistic
>>for Hungary.
>
>First, I didn't conceal anything. The quotes, page numbers and book
>cited were accurate.

    You did not conceal _everything_, that is true.  Yet when checked, the
references reveal that what you showed people gave a SIGNIFICANTLY
different impression than what they would have seen when reading the book
for themselves.



>Secondly, now you mention it, I think that that statistic is NOT
>realistic at all.  
>For discussion of the numbers of the number of Jews transported out of
>Hungary [cf Butz the Hoax of the Twentieth Century, Chapter V, available
>from the Institute of Historical Review, PO Box 2739, Newport Beach,
>California, 92659 USA.
>See also the article by Carlo Mattogno "The deportation and
>"extermination" of The jews of Hungary" on Brad's website. 
>CODOH http://www.codoh.com/ ]

    Huh?  Hoess said _no more than_ half a million.  Mattogno quotes Lt.
Col. Ferenczy as giving a figure of 434,351.  I don't consider those two
number so far apart, given that Hoess was giving a nice round number as
his upper limit.


>In his response, Mr Stein quotes from the Wannsee protocols, which
>actually gives numbers for the above countries, I thank him for drawing
>this to my attention.
>
>These are:-
>
>Wannsee protocols 
>
>Bulgaria..............................48,000
>Rumania, including Bessarabia........342,000  
>Hungary..............................742,000
>
>Now compare them with the figures quoted in the "Hoess" memoirs.
>
>Bulgaria............................2,500,000
>Rumania.............................4,000,000
>Hungary.............................3,000,000

    But also compare the Hungarian figure with Hoess's _own_ figure from
his memoirs.



>It is therefore totally impossible to believe

    ... that Eichmann was capable of error, of being fed incorrect
figures?


>that these figures ever
>came from SS Obersturmbannfurhrer Karl 

    Adolf.

>Eichmann, especially when he was
>at the Wannsee Conference, and who headed a department dealing with the
>evaculation of the Jews. 

    Well, according to Hoess, the Hungary figures at least came only
indirectly from Eichmann; they came directly from the Hungarian police.

    But you may be right that the numbers did not come from Eichmann. 
Hoess did have a lousy grasp of details. 



>It is just further proof that the "Hoess" memoirs are Communist
>Propaganda.

    Not at all.  As I mentioned, the situation had changed from the
Wannsee Protocols.  And Hoess's poor grasp of details may have been
entirely his own fault.  If Hoess's memoirs were all communist propaganda,
why did he contradict them on the total Auschwitz death toll?  They kept
their four million figure even though Hoess's memoirs undercut their
propaganda.

    I notice you did not take the wager.  Nor have you yet said what was
so significant about John Morris's omission of "itself" in "Knowledge
itself is power."  Remember, you were the one claiming he had made a
significant omission - even as you deny that you have done the same.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Oct  7 15:08:59 PDT 1996
Article: 72399 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: remember this
Date: 7 Oct 1996 16:04:35 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <53bnoj$g9j@access5.digex.net>
References: <53af7b$k8l@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <53af7b$k8l@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>	The Chuckle Fairy is a self confessed murderer.

    The Giwer is a self-confessed liar.  See

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Oct  7 15:09:00 PDT 1996
Article: 72400 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!thor.atcon.com!pumpkin.pangea.ca!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Human skin LAMPSHADE STORY A CRUEL AND VULGAR HOAX
Date: 7 Oct 1996 15:59:34 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <53bnf6$g1q@access5.digex.net>
References: <32414E2D.728@rio.com> <523s8h$nom@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <531pvt$a1l@access5.digex.net> <534bhu$3ps@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <534bhu$3ps@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 3 Oct 1996 21:41:17 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
>wrote:
>>    Given Mr. Giwer's vision problems, as proved by his uproarious
>>misreading of the photograph "fndaerab.jpg," the wonder is rather that Mr.
>>Giwer can see anything at all.  (Further evidence of Mr. Giwer's vision
>>problems can be found on his website.  At that, it's somewhat improved
>>from when he first announced it.)
>
>	Sorry about that but gratiotois and unfounded insults are responded 
>to in regards to your silly little holocaust.

    Mr. Giwer lies twice in the above sentence.  First, my comment was
hardly gratuitious, as it was a response to his claim that he never saw
any disagreements (other than how guilty the Germans were) among those he
calls "holohuggers."  Such disagreements have previously been called to
his attention.

    Second, it was hardly unfounded.  Mr. Giwer did indeed misread the
photograph he posted as "fndaerab.jpg," thinking Krema V was east of
Kremas II and III, when in fact it was north.

    But of course Mr. Giwer is a liar.  That is not an insult, nor is it
unfounded.  It is a simple fact.  Mr. Giwer's open confession to it can be
found at the URL below. 

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html

    Also see:

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Oct  7 15:20:10 PDT 1996
Article: 72406 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What if again (despite the fat topic cop)
Date: 7 Oct 1996 16:28:29 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <53bp5d$h80@access5.digex.net>
References: <5376gq$20g@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>  <53afq4$mf3@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <53afq4$mf3@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 6 Oct 1996 01:03:34 -0400, karlpov@access5.digex.net (Charles R.L.
>Power) wrote:
>	Excuse me good sir, but you fantasy explanation is not supported in the
>literature.  Please provide citations for your imaginations in the future.

    Why does confessed liar Matt Giwer demand that which he refuses to
provide himself?  E.g., on the alleged British admission that the
Zimmerman telegram was forged.

    Of course Mr. Power has since given references to what Mr. Giwer
claimed did not exist in the literature.

    Remember that he also declared that no victim of Nazi X-ray
sterilization experiments was ever found - despite the fact that one
testified at Brack's trial, a fact easily seen from Vol. II of the Green
Series.  Mr. Giwer's grasp of the literature is less than complete.

    Mr. Giwer's grasp of honesty is also less than complete, as he has
told us himself.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html


    And of course Mr. Giwer has not hesitated to play "topic cop" as he
calls it.  Particularly when it allows him to evade answering for yet
another of his many lies and errors.

    "Hypocrisy is not a nice thing to see." - Matt Giwer.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Oct  7 17:13:17 PDT 1996
Article: 72425 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!news.sgi.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Gary "Gerhard" Lauck >> Was G.L. Framed By Anti-Racists?
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 7 Oct 1996 17:47:54 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <53btqa$ks1@access5.digex.net>
References:    <534bcf$3ps@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.censorship:104408 alt.revisionism:72425 soc.culture.europe:48598 soc.culture.german:87952

In article <534bcf$3ps@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Fri, 04 Oct 1996 13:37:49 +0200, skok@itw.uni-stuttgart.de (Holger Skok)
>wrote:

>	4)  It is absurd to claim that trying to change a constitution is
>unconstitutional.

    Perhaps Mr. Giwer should reread Article V.


>>Thirdly, our Verfassung at least, contains two articles considered 
>>immutable. 
>
>	Then it is not a constitution.

    In that case, the United States did not have a constitution until
1808.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Tue Oct  8 22:50:55 PDT 1996
Article: 72763 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: For the enrichment of NIZKOR's archives!
Date: 8 Oct 1996 23:59:32 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 76
Message-ID: <53f7v4$5s@access1.digex.net>
References: <53dqam$b41@news1.total.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <53dqam$b41@news1.total.net>,
Judith Toth  wrote:

[snip]


>THE WAR OF NUMBERS 
>			I.
>According to "accepted and proven  Historical facts" from the Jewish
>Encyclopedia (Publ. 1970):
>World Jewry in 1900 ................. 11 million
>World Jewry in In 1939............	  16,658,000
>European Jewry  1939 ............    9,650,000
>
>	compare this to
>
>			II.
>The American Jewish Year Book (1918-1919)
>World Jewry /1917/................	15,124,349
>European Jewry /1917/..........10,891,917
>[So, taking the two official sources into account  there is an
>incredible  difference  of -- 4,124,349 --   increase in the number of
>Jews within 17 years. How can two official sources have such wide
>difference?]
>
>ABOUT NATURAL BIRTHRATES	
>	 Professor U.O. Schmelz - in  the Jewish Year Book (1980) published by
>Hebrew University - enumerates the increase in the number of Jews in
>13 countries between 1959 and 1975. With the exception of  Israel,
>where the increase is 1.7% per year, in  the rest of the 12 countries
>named, not  even the 1% birthrate is reached. If we consider the
>highest percentage of 1% increase, then within 17 years  the number of
>Jewish population of the world is supposed to be increased by
>1,870,000 and not more than 4 million. 
>	Therefore, in the Jewish Year Book of 1918-19 instead of 15,124,349
>there should have been only 12,870,000 for the number of Jews in the
>world  -  a whopping difference of 3,254,349 !!!

    Excuse me, but why are you entitled to assume that the Jewish
Encyclopedia figure is correct rather than the other one?

>
>			III.
>American Jewish Year Book (1939-1940)
>World Jewry ...........................	16,181,328 
>
>[A difference of 477,682 between the Jewish Encycl. and the  American
>Jewish Year Book.]
>
>Jewish Encyclopedia (1970)
>World Jewry /1939/.................	16,658,000 
>[according to the natural increase stated by Prof. Schmelz 
> really this number should be 12,181,328]

    Again, why are you entitled to assume that the first number is correct
and the later numbers are wrong and must be corrected?


>Jewish Encyclopedia:
>World Jewry /1954/................	.11,685,000
>World Jewry /1967/................	 13,555,000
>
> 12,658,000 minus 11,685,000 = 973,000 the number of Jews died?
>			or maybe 
>12,181,328 minus 11,685,000 = 496,328 the  number of Jews died?

    Ignoring the increase from 1947 to 1954, of course.

    Remember: there are lies, there are damned lies, and then there are
statistics.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Wed Oct  9 08:07:07 PDT 1996
Article: 72802 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Yom Kippur
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 8 Oct 1996 22:59:21 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <53f4e9$qqi@access1.digex.net>
References: <52pe9l$6be@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>  <844425248snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> <5345sn$fto@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <5345sn$fto@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:

[snip]
>On the other hand, if I had made up a name, Keren would not be able to tell
>the difference.

    More mindless insult from the self-confessed liar.  Of course the
gutless wonder did not dare to put Dr. Keren to the test. 

>But even so, I do not use holohugger tactics.  

    It has long been obvious that Matt Giwer does not tell the truth and
does not support his claims with checkable references.  Even so, it is
nice to have this open admission to go with the one below. 

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Oct 10 01:08:06 PDT 1996
Article: 72949 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Israeli incitement provocation
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 9 Oct 1996 21:40:12 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <53hk5s$f3m@access5.digex.net>
References: <52hecd$cov@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <52koav$69m@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <531umn$ciq@access5.digex.net> <534bhq$3ps@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <534bhq$3ps@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 3 Oct 1996 23:01:43 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <52koav$69m@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
>>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>>>	It is rather amazing that the common knowledge is so well hidden 
>>>by these holohuggers.  They can not be so stupid or so ignorant as they
>>>pretend on alt.revisionism.  
>
>>    Well, at least _we_ have to _pretend_ to be stupid.
>
>>http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
>>http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html
>

[ More Giwer spam snipped ]

    Thank you for proving my point.  Not that you are capable of
understanding how.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Oct 10 01:08:07 PDT 1996
Article: 72963 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!news.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: For the enrichment of NIZKOR's archives!
Date: 9 Oct 1996 22:21:00 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 163
Message-ID: <53hmic$g1n@access5.digex.net>
References: <53dqam$b41@news1.total.net> <53gd35$2ev@faith.total.net> <53h4kk$ags@access5.digex.net> <53hjjq$4g1@news1.total.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <53hjjq$4g1@news1.total.net>,
Judith Toth  wrote:
>[postings cut because of length]
>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>	MIKE STEIN WROTE: << Excuse me, but why are you entitled to assume
>that the Jewish Encyclopedia figure is correct rather than the other
>one?>>
>TOTH ANSWERS: <<< Are YOU entitled to doubt either one? The  sources -
>since politically correct always demands EVIDENCE and documentation -
>were posted because they are interesting. You found them interesting
>enought to reply, didn't you? So did others? Instead of refuting you
>become defending.

    Some people would say you are Jewish, since you answer a question with
a question.

    I am not defending either source.  I am pointing out that there was
nothing in your original post to justify choosing one and rejecting the
other.  Yet you chose one and rejected the other.  It is for you to
justify your doubt of the one _you_ rejected.

    How did you decide that the Jewish Encyclopedia figure was accurate,
and that the Yearbook figure was not?  Did you flip a coin?


>STEIN WROTE: <<< I am telling you that you arbitrarily selected the
>data you liked and rejected data you didn't like when making your
>argument.  You did that without justifying your selectivity.  That is
>not intellectually honest.>>>

>TOTH: <<< Are you suffering from "labelitis" also? Why on earth don't
>you bring in you documentaion and show everyone where I was wrong
>instead of putting on you broken record?... Refute Bob, or step aside!

    It is for you to justify your arbitrary claim that the Jewish
Encyclopedia was right and the Yearbook wrong.  You were the one making an
assertion in your original article.  It is not my job to refute it.  The
fact that you made an arbitrary decision without providing justification
for the way you chose is documentable prima facie from your original post.


>TOTH WROTE: <<truth, my firend which apparently can  only be practiced by the
>politically correct and nobody else.>>>
>
>STEIN WROTE: <<< It certainly cannot be practiced by liars.  Please
>see my series "Revisionist Def Comedy Jam."  Then I would appreciate
>your answer to the question: what kind of truth seeking is it that
>needs lies to support it?>>>
>
>TOTH ANSWERS:  So according to you and your "employer" there is no
>other truth except YOURS?  The only data, the only figures, the only
>History in existence written by you?

    As a matter of fact, YOU are the one doing that.  You claim that your
preferred figure (from the Encyclopedia) is correct, and that the Yearbook
figure is false.  I questioned your claim.  You started making all sorts
of wild statements which attacked me for things I did not do, things I did
not say.  Therefore you are the one with the Truth Which Cannot Be
Questioned.


>Whom do you take human beings
>for? Fools? Do you think we are all your hordes of sheep with no
>brains at all?

    When Greg Raven writes, "Pressac said X," and I can produce Pressac's
words to prove that Pressac did NOT say X, do you say I am not allowed to
call that a lie?

    I gave my sources in that series.  They are verifiable.  Compare what
the revisionist wrote with the cited source.  Get back to me when you have
done that.


>STEIN WROTE: <<<  I am telling you there are two different numbers
>from two different sources.  You don't even know (nor do I) if they
>are based on the same criteria.  For example, if the lower number is
>based on the definition of "Jew" as "one who observes the Jewish
>religion," while the larger is based on an ethnic definition, they
>might well both be correct, and comparing the two would be comparing
>apples and oranges.
>	 Again, I don't know.  But I don't think you do either.  Yet you based
>an argument on the figures.  You are doing everything except answering
>the question as to why you are entitled to make the assumptions you
>made. 
>	TOTH: [And here we are told that "Jews died in the Holocaust because
>of the racism of Hitler?" Now are the Jews a race or a religion? They
>died as what? According to your friend Bill Anderson "THE JEWS" are
>abstract?]

    The Nazi defintion of Jewish was racial.  Someone born to Jewish
parents was considered a Jew even if baptized and a Catholic priest.

    If you will look in a dictionary, you will see that many words have
multiple definitions.

    You are still evading the question of why YOU decided in your original
post that the lower population figure was correct and the higher one was
wrong.


>TOTH WROTE: <<assume that the figures in the Jewish  Enc. or the American Jewish
>Year Book are not correct?  Is the Jewish  Encyclopedia (1970
>published in New York) has ever been anywhere refuted or denounced by
>"you employer"?  We are all waiting for you answer?
>
> STEIN: <<yours, youare once again beating up on a strawman (and evading any
>justification ofyour own assumptions).  I am not aware of the Jewish
>Encyclopedia beingrefuted.  But I am not aware of the American Jewish
>Yearbook being refutedeither, are you?  Yet you arbitrarily reject its
>higher figure in favor ofone based on a population growth from the
>lower figure.
>	 Why did you not reject the lower figure and replace it with one based
>on a population shrinkage from the higher figure?  Why did you not
>average the two figures?  Absent any other information, the last
>method would have been more objective (though still rather
>unsatisfactory). - As matters stand, we have an unexplained anomaly.
>
>TOTH WROTE: << Maybe  the more contemporary edition of J
>Enc. went under considerable "reconstruction"?>>
>
>STEIN:<<< Excuse me?  As far as I could tell from your original post,
>there was only one edition of the Jewish Encyclopedia under
>discussion.  The source with multiple editions was the American Jewish
>Yearbook, and the different editions seemed to be consistent with each
>other.  >>>
>	[ I only quoted the 1970 Jewish Encyclopedia, it was your job to quote
>and compare it to the latest edition! TJ]

    You did not use the latest edition in your original post.  Therefore
it is irrelevant to my point.

    Once again: you gave two different sources with two different
population figures for the first fifth of this century.  You picked one
and rejected the other.  You offerend no explanation for choosing the way
you did.  It is your job to explain why your choice was more reasonable
than choosing the other way around, or averaging the two numbers.
Implicitly, you asserted that your choice was correct.

    It is not my job to prove your unsupported assertions are false.  It
is your job to support your assertions.

    Is this point finally clear?

[ snip ]

>P.S. I am... we are all waiting to see your posting that would
>"correct" the one put up by me.

    It is not my job to prove your unsupported claims are false.

    It is your job to justify your claims.

    It is clear you cannot do so and are evading the issue.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access3.digex.net Thu Oct 10 09:30:02 PDT 1996
Article: 72981 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access3.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hans Muench testimony:a sick joke
Date: 10 Oct 1996 02:04:09 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <53i3kp$76j@access3.digex.net>
References: <534qql$1ml@Vir.com>  <53ae6e$erh@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access3.digex.net

In article <53ae6e$erh@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>I have posted the overall picture of Birkenau which included IV and V and
>they are as close to the barracks as the barracks are to each other.  There
>are no trees any where in sight.  Grow up and get a life beyond the
>holocaust.  

    And I have pointed to the large-scale aerial photo on Nizkor which
shows that Matt Giwer is wrong.  It is easy to place Matt's 'fndaerab.jpg'
posting in the larger photo and see that his photo does not show IV or V
at all.


>	You are lying.  And you konw you are lying.  

    Matt Giwer is a liar.  And he admits he is a liar.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Oct 10 09:30:03 PDT 1996
Article: 73020 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: conundrum
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 10 Oct 1996 09:39:26 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <53iuae$qt5@access5.digex.net>
References: <53i6th$hed@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:73020 alt.usenet.kooks:29864

In article <53i6th$hed@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:

>Holohuggers claim there is no holohugger making harrassing phone calls to
>me and my family.  If they are correct then the following is false.
>
>When I find out who is making the harrassing phone calls, I will make him
>wish he were dead even to the point of making him dead.  But that would be
>an accident, a long lived blind cripple is my true objective.  
>
>If holohuggers are truthful people the above has no meaning.  If they are
>liars then they will claim the above is a death threat.  

    Here we see the finest logic that a 163 IQ mind can deliver.

    As everyone knows, there are all sorts of people who make crank phone
calls.  What if Matt is receiving harrassing phone calls from a bratty
eight-year-old down the block who has never even heard of the Holocaust? 

    Then it will be true that no harrassing phone calls came from a
"holohugger."

    But Matt will have made a true and meaningful threat against an
eight-year-old child.



>	But as we know holohuggers are liars and viciously violent people.  

    As we know, Matt Giwer is a liar.  He said so himself.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html


-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Oct 10 09:30:04 PDT 1996
Article: 73021 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!chi-news.cic.net!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: For the enrichment of NIZKOR's archives!
Date: 10 Oct 1996 10:03:44 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <53ivo0$rh5@access5.digex.net>
References: <53dqam$b41@news1.total.net> <53h4kk$ags@access5.digex.net> <53hjjq$4g1@news1.total.net> <325CB093.41C6@itsa.ucsf.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <325CB093.41C6@itsa.ucsf.edu>,
Brian Harmon   wrote:
>Judith Toth wrote about Mike Steins .sig:
>
>> TOTH ANSWERS:  So according to you and your "employer" there is no
>> other truth except YOURS? The only data, the only figures, the only
>> History in existence written by you?  Whom do you take human beings
>> for? Fools? Do you think we are all your hordes of sheep with no
>> brains at all?
>
>I wonder about an individual who wouldn't know humor even 
>when it hits him squarely in the face.

    A number of clues suggest Ms. Toth's native language is not English.


>Besides that, you misunderstood what his .sig says even if one
>takes it at face value.
>
>It says:
>
>> --
>> Mike Stein                     The above represents the Absolute Truth.
>> POB 10420                      Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
>> Arlington, VA  22210           position of my employer.
>==========
>
>It does not say that he and his employer believe that the only
>real truth is that decreed by Mike Stein.

    It was even more fun when I was posting from a Department of Labor
machine, and my .sig read, "The above represents the Absolute Truth.
Therefore it could not possibly be the official position or policy of the
United States Government."
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Oct 10 09:30:05 PDT 1996
Article: 73022 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One more lesson in statistics
Date: 10 Oct 1996 10:23:55 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <53j0tr$rsr@access5.digex.net>
References: <53dqam$b41@news1.total.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <53dqam$b41@news1.total.net>,
Judith Toth  wrote:
>ABOUT NATURAL BIRTHRATES	
>	 Professor U.O. Schmelz - in  the Jewish Year Book (1980) published by
>Hebrew University - enumerates the increase in the number of Jews in
>13 countries between 1959 and 1975. With the exception of  Israel,
>where the increase is 1.7% per year, in  the rest of the 12 countries
>named, not  even the 1% birthrate is reached. If we consider the
>highest percentage of 1% increase, then within 17 years  the number of
>Jewish population of the world is supposed to be increased by
>1,870,000 [from a base of 11 million] and not more than 4 million. 

    I've given Matt Giwer a good long time to correct your computation
error above, and he has not done so - despite complaining that a)
"holohuggers" never correct each other (false) and b) "holohuggers" are
innumerate (also false). 

    Your figure of 1,870,000 is wrong because you used the wrong formula. 
You simply multiplied 1% by 17 years and got 17%.  But that is not how
things work.  Population increase is exponential.  The correct formula to
determine the increase over 17 years, assuming 1% _annual_ growth, is

    11,000,000 * (1.01^17 - 1)

which gives approximately 2,020,000.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Oct 10 16:20:58 PDT 1996
Article: 73096 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!node2.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: For the enrichment of NIZKOR's archives!
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 10 Oct 1996 17:31:30 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <53jpvi$6lh@access5.digex.net>
References: <53dqam$b41@news1.total.net> <325CB093.41C6@itsa.ucsf.edu> <53ivo0$rh5@access5.digex.net> <326c08ac.5012785@199.0.216.204>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:73096 alt.usenet.kooks:29872

In article <326c08ac.5012785@199.0.216.204>,
tom moran  wrote:
>>In article <325CB093.41C6@itsa.ucsf.edu>,
>>Brian Harmon   wrote:
>>>Judith Toth wrote about Mike Steins .sig:
>>>
>>>> TOTH ANSWERS:  So according to you and your "employer" there is no
>>>> other truth except YOURS? The only data, the only figures, the only
>>>> History in existence written by you?  Whom do you take human beings
>>>> for? Fools? Do you think we are all your hordes of sheep with no
>>>> brains at all?
>>>
>>>I wonder about an individual who wouldn't know humor even 
>>>when it hits him squarely in the face.
>>
>>    A number of clues suggest Ms. Toth's native language is not English.
>
>	A whole slue of postings by Mr.Stein shows that he is
>ethnocentrically insane and whatever he writes is in defense of all
>that which is stated in Hebrew.

    Imagine that.  And here all this time I thought everything here was
stated in English.  Thanks for setting me straight, Tommy.

.sdrawkcab gnihtyreve etirw evah ll'I won ,werbeH si siht ecnis tuB
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Oct 10 16:20:59 PDT 1996
Article: 73102 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Demolition of Auschwitz evidence?
Date: 10 Oct 1996 17:56:58 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <53jrfa$72m@access5.digex.net>
References: <537811$21q@news.enter.net> <53ddd9$hth@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <53ddd9$hth@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>>   yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) writes:
>>  
>
>>  
>>  	Come back when you have some evidence.
>>  
>>  	--YFE
>>  
>I can say the same to you.

    You were the one insisting on the defense/prosecution paradigm instead
of a historian paradigm.  Yale has just got through telling you that under
that model, the appellant is the one responsible for bringing forward new
evidence.  You are the appellant.  Therefore you can NOT say that to Yale.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access3.digex.net Fri Oct 11 00:35:27 PDT 1996
Article: 73197 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!hookup!nntp-hub2.barrnet.net!news.sgi.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access3.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: WAS SS OFFICER KURT GERSTEIN KICKED TO DEATH?
Date: 11 Oct 1996 00:48:25 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <53kjip$hbv@access3.digex.net>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access3.digex.net

In article ,
Jeffrey   wrote:
>
>"On April 26th 1945, an American Intelligence team discovered a German
>Civilian living in a hotel at Rottweil in the Black forest. He was Kurt
>Gerstein, a 34 year old mining assessor and former director of the
>Dusseldorf firm, Lihmon-Fuime. Gerstein handed the Americans a statement
>of seven pages, typed in French, together with those gas bills that were
>to appear at nuremberg, and then vanished from history." 
>
>Well thats lucky. Prevents awkward questions.
>[like his on estimate of 40 million gassed]

    Ah, yes.  When you don't have any facts, insinuate.


[snip]

>During the International Nuremberg Trial, Gerstein was considered to be
>alive, and the defence had the right to demand that he be produced in
>court. His unsworn statement could not therefore be produced in
>evidence. 
>
>[BUT IT WAS USED BY HOLOCAUST HATE PROPAGANDISTS like Raul Hilberg,

    I'm so glad you don't stoop to abuse and name calling, Jeff.

>a
>Jew, and Gerald Reitlinger, a jewish Antique dealer, in their "books" to
>PROVE "GASSINGS" - JR]

    Are you trying to insinuate their Jewishness caused them to lie?
Don't be coy.


>At several subsequent trials it was successfully challanged by the
>defence, but a small portion of it was nevertheless, printed in the
>official selection of documents from the doctors trial published in
>Washington." 
>
>"in Gersteins second confession, written not in french, but in German,
>and discovered by his widow a whole year after his arrest, [...]

    So are you and Roques saying that Gerstein's widow forged another
version of his confession?

    What, was she Jewish too?

    You mean she didn't she die a "suicide" to prevent awkward questions
about her "discovery?" 

    Very unlucky, wouldn't you say?

    Posted/emailed.

 P. S.  Still waiting for you to accept the wager.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access3.digex.net Fri Oct 11 00:35:28 PDT 1996
Article: 73217 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access3.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: JEW ADMIRES ZUNDELS COURAGE
Date: 11 Oct 1996 01:09:21 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <53kkq1$iqm@access3.digex.net>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access3.digex.net

In article ,
Jeffrey   wrote:
>[NOTE BY JR: THE HOLOCAUST HATE PROPAGANDA HAS NOT FOOLED ALL JEWS AS
>THIS ACCOUNT BY JOSEF GINSBURG SHOWS. LIKE MANY JEWS, JOSEF CHANGED HIS
>NAME TO JOSEF G. BURG.

    Really?  How many Jews changed their name to Josef G. Burg?


>FOR SPEAKING OUT, HE WAS BEATEN UP BY HOLOCAUST
>HATE PROGANDIST THUGS IN VIENNA] 
>
>
>Burg hoped to show by his example that not all Jews consider the Germans
>a guilty nation.  He admired Zundel's courage.  "If there were another
two or three  Zundels'' he proclaimed, "it would be better for us Jews as
>well."

[snip]

    Burg, of course, was never in Auschwitz, or Treblinka, or Belzec, or
Sobibor.

    And I am sure I can find a thousand Germans who were never in the
camps who believe the Nazis were guilty.  So are you now convinced that it
did happen, since Burg is now outnumbered a thousand to one by Germans who
(as we all know) never lie?  (Or is it that they never lie when they are
denying criminal activity, but all testimony of war crimes are lies
produced by torture even when uttered thirty years after the war?) 


    Appeal to Burg's Jewishness is a logical fallacy, as was my appeal to
the thousand Germans who were never in the camps. 

    Of course there are also Germans who WERE in Auschwitz and Treblinka
who said that there was mass murder.  _That_ is _not_ a logical fallacy. 
    
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Oct 11 09:07:48 PDT 1996
Article: 73266 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!node2.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: For the enrichment of NIZKOR's archives!
Date: 9 Oct 1996 17:15:00 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 150
Message-ID: <53h4kk$ags@access5.digex.net>
References: <53dqam$b41@news1.total.net> <53f7v4$5s@access1.digex.net> <53gd35$2ev@faith.total.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <53gd35$2ev@faith.total.net>,
Judith Toth  wrote:
[snip]

>>>	Therefore, in the Jewish Year Book of 1918-19 instead of 15,124,349
>>>there should have been only 12,870,000 for the number of Jews in the
>>>world  -  a whopping difference of 3,254,349 !!!
>
>MIKE STEIN WROTE: << Excuse me, but why are you entitled to assume
>that the Jewish Encyclopedia figure is correct rather than the other
>one?>>

[snip]

>MIKE STEIN WROTE: << Ignoring the increase from 1947 to 1954, of
>course. -   Remember: there are lies, there are damned lies, and then
>there are statistics.>>
>
>>    Posted/emailed.
>>-- 
>>Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
>>POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
>>Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.
>====================================================================
>TOTH ANSWERS TO MIKE STEIN:
>	Your "employer"?  And who is that, pray tell? 

    ZOG, of course.  Everybody knows that.


>	Of course there are LIES and LIES and LIES!  So  you are telling  us
>that  previously published Jewish books, encyclopedias and year books
>contain lies, the information in them is slanted?

    No, I am not telling you that.  Nor is that a reasonable reading of my
words.

    I am telling you that you arbitrarily selected the data you liked and
rejected data you didn't like when making your argument.  You did
that without justifying your selectivity.  That is not intellectually
honest.


>Therefore  only "the
>recently  corrected"  figures and data is acceptable, is it? The old
>books  are to be burned - or maybe this was already done during the
>past 50 years? - somewhere on a public square?

    I have not said anything which can reasonably be interpreted in this
way.



>	That is why there is revisionism searching for the truth, my firend
>which apparently can  only be practiced by the politically correct and
>nobody else.

    It certainly cannot be practiced by liars.  Please see my series
"Revisionist Def Comedy Jam."  Then I would appreciate your answer to the
question: what kind of truth seeking is it that needs lies to support it?


>Meaning: when you and your "employer" tell  the world
>what the "correct"  truth is then, ..... with wild anticipation
>everyone has to accept it no questions asked?

    Funny, all I did was ask you the reasoning behind your assumptions,
plus point out a methodological error, and you act as if I have not only
made an assertion about the substantive issue at hand, but said it could
not be questioned.

    Nowhere, of course, did I do that.  You are creating a strawman, and
not even doing a very good job of it.


>	Mr. Stein is asking me "why are you entitled to assume that the Jewish
>Encyclopedia figure is correct rather than the other one?"
>	 Oh no! ... Don't tell me that History has been re-written? 

    I am telling you there are two different numbers from two different
sources.  You don't even know (nor do I) if they are based on the same
criteria.  For example, if the lower number is based on the definition of
"Jew" as "one who observes the Jewish religion," while the larger is based
on an ethnic definition, they might well both be correct, and comparing
the two would be comparing apples and oranges.

    Again, I don't know.  But I don't think you do either.  Yet you based
an argument on the figures.  You are doing everything except answering the
question as to why you are entitled to make the assumptions you made.


>	Tell us Mr. Stein, on what basis  ARE YOU entitled to assume that the
>figures in the Jewish  Enc. or the American Jewish Year Book are not
>correct?  Is the Jewish  Encyclopedia (1970 published in New York) has
>ever been anywhere refuted or denounced by "you employer"?  We are all
>waiting for you answer?

    Since I have made no assumptions at all, merely questioned yours, you
are once again beating up on a strawman (and evading any justification of
your own assumptions).  I am not aware of the Jewish Encyclopedia being
refuted.  But I am not aware of the American Jewish Yearbook being refuted
either, are you?  Yet you arbitrarily reject its higher figure in favor of
one based on a population growth from the lower figure.

    Why did you not reject the lower figure and replace it with one based
on a population shrinkage from the higher figure?  Why did you not average
the two figures?  Absent any other information, the last method would have
been more objective (though still rather unsatisfactory). 

    As matters stand, we have an unexplained anomaly.


>...- Maybe  the more contemporary edition of J
>Enc. went under considerable "reconstruction"?

    Excuse me?  As far as I could tell from your original post, there was
only one edition of the Jewish Encyclopedia under discussion.  The source
with multiple editions was the American Jewish Yearbook, and the different
editions seemed to be consistent with each other.

    So you do not know and cannot answer the question.


>Just like the 19 marble
>tables of Auschwitz in 1990 with 4 million names on them?  And perhaps
>you could quote the "new data and figures" from your new Jewish
>Encyclopedia  so we can all see that your books' editors in 1918-19
>gave out false information to the public, but NOW it is all corrected
>and how this was done?

    I have made no claim.  I have explicitly said that I do not know the
definitions or the methodology used to generate the different numbers. But
apparently neither do you.  Yet you are the one claiming that the _higher_
number was a false one which must be rejected.  Therefore you are the one
bearing a burden of proof. 


>	Or are we not allowed to "meddle" in these affairs?

    And where have I said anything remotely like this?  Nowhere, of
course.  The only thing I have requested is that you justify your
arbitrary acceptance of one statistic and blithe dismissal of the other.
Your reply was a rather hysterical attack on things I never said.  Now can
you justify your methodology or can't you?

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Oct 11 09:07:49 PDT 1996
Article: 73304 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: One more lesson in statistics
Date: 11 Oct 1996 10:48:59 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <53lmor$2na@access5.digex.net>
References: <53dqam$b41@news1.total.net> <53j0tr$rsr@access5.digex.net> <53kr8m$p3p@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <53kr8m$p3p@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On 10 Oct 1996 10:23:55 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <53dqam$b41@news1.total.net>,
>
>>    I've given Matt Giwer a good long time to correct [Judith Toth's] 
>>computation error above,
>
>	Actually I had missed it.  However I did comment twice upon the more 
>robust posting upon growth rates that, extended to 1940, resulted in 12
>million European Jews.  And with that ended the "I lost 137 relatives"
>line by noting that at most AS I HAD PREVIOUSLY POSITED noe more than
>half died in the strange event that it was all true.
>
>	Do you have a problem with either?  I did not notice you commenting 
>upon the 12 v 6 million comments I made.

    I have a problem with your "I lost two million relatives" claim.  I
certainly never saw anyone say that except you.  But we all know you are a
self-confessed liar who demands documentation but does not reciprocate.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html

    As for the "167 relatives" comment, it is you that has the problem
with statistical thinking.  I pointed it out to you back in May: the
difference between relatives and unique relatives.  Go to DejaNews and
search for the phrase "unique relatives."

    Many families, both Jewish and non-Jewish, keep track of relatives out
to the third cousin level and beyond.  Add in spouses and it's easy to get
well over a hundred living relatives (by marriage or blood) just from
one side of the family.

    At my last family reunion, there were over 100 in attendance - and
that was just the descendants of my paternal great-grandfather plus
spouses.  Yes, there were lots of third cousins and relatives by marriage,
but those are still relatives.  A hundred more could not make it. If a
small asteroid had crashed into the reunion site, about 50% of the family
would have been wiped out.  Each of the hundred survivors would have lost
over 100 relatives - but the SAME 100 relatives.  The average would be one
UNIQUE relative per person, but that would not change the fact that each
individual could count 100 relatives who died. 

    And remember, that is just on my father's side.  If half my mother's
side were wiped out as well, my brother (who was not at the reunion) would
have lost 200 relatives when you count the third cousins.  His son would
have lost 200 relatives.  His wife would have lost 200 relatives (all by
marriage, none by blood).  But they'd be the same 200 relatives.

    So what is _your_ problem with the idea that some individuals could
have lost 167 relatives (counting the in-laws and third cousins) even with
a 30% death rate?

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Oct 11 09:07:49 PDT 1996
Article: 73308 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!newspump.sol.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: the (snip) game
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 11 Oct 1996 11:07:43 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <53lnrv$31p@access5.digex.net>
References: <53l9uk$866@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:73308 alt.usenet.kooks:29890

In article <53l9uk$866@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>	Not a problem here folks but I will consider the (snip) game the 
>same as the repetition of any mantra.  

    You have some objection to people giving a visible indication that
they deleted text from a response, thus giving the reader notice that they
should go back up the thread to read the whole article?

    Oh, that's right.  You have cut text out without warning to give a
false and dishonest impression.  I guess you don't like reminders of your
dishonesty. 

    Too bad.  Here's another reminder that you are a self-confessed liar: 

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Oct 11 09:07:50 PDT 1996
Article: 73310 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: look as the silly Giwer now
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 11 Oct 1996 11:14:56 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <53lo9g$38r@access5.digex.net>
References: <53kag5$997@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <53kag5$997@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>	And remember that Colin MacGregor lied and all of idirect lied.  

    And remember that Matt Giwer lied, and lied, and lied, except for the
time he told the truth and admitted he lied:

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

[WHOIS records deleted]
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Oct 11 12:14:17 PDT 1996
Article: 73319 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news1.wtn.mci.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN(ne) F(r)A(n)KE
Date: 11 Oct 1996 11:28:35 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <53lp33$3in@access5.digex.net>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article ,
Jeffrey   wrote:
>
>Anne Frank
>by Mark Weber 

[snip]

    Jeff, would you like to explain your subject line?  I cannot see what
in Weber's article justifies it.

    Don't be coy.  Speak plainly.  Are you still trying to insinuate that
the diary was forged?  Perhaps you should talk to Al Baron about that.

    Are you picking on little dead girls after all?

    Posted/emailed.

P. S.  Still waiting to hear from you about the wager.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Oct 11 12:14:18 PDT 1996
Article: 73321 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!spool.mu.edu!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: For the enrichment of NIZKOR's archives!
Date: 11 Oct 1996 11:51:55 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 74
Message-ID: <53lqer$41k@access5.digex.net>
References: <53dqam$b41@news1.total.net> <53f7v4$5s@access1.digex.net> <53gd35$2ev@faith.total.net> <3263fdc1.2217102@199.0.216.204>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <3263fdc1.2217102@199.0.216.204>,
tom moran  wrote:
>>====================================================================
>>TOTH ANSWERS TO MIKE STEIN:
>>	Your "employer"?  And who is that, pray tell? 
>>	Of course there are LIES and LIES and LIES!  So  you are telling  us
>>that  previously published Jewish books, encyclopedias and year books
>>contain lies, the information in them is slanted? Therefore  only "the
>>recently  corrected"  figures and data is acceptable, is it? The old
>>books  are to be burned - or maybe this was already done during the
>>past 50 years? - somewhere on a public square?  
>>	That is why there is revisionism searching for the truth, my firend
>>which apparently can  only be practiced by the politically correct and
>>nobody else. Meaning: when you and your "employer" tell  the world
>>what the "correct"  truth is then, ..... with wild anticipation
>>everyone has to accept it no questions asked?  
>>	Mr. Stein is asking me "why are you entitled to assume that the Jewish
>>Encyclopedia figure is correct rather than the other one?"
>>	 Oh no! ... Don't tell me that History has been re-written? 
>>	Tell us Mr. Stein, on what basis  ARE YOU entitled to assume that the
>>figures in the Jewish  Enc. or the American Jewish Year Book are not
>>correct? Is the Jewish  Encyclopedia (1970 published in New York) has
>>ever been anywhere refuted or denounced by "you employer"? We are all
>>waiting for you answer?...- Maybe  the more contemporary edition of J
>>Enc. went under considerable "reconstruction"? Just like the 19 marble
>>tables of Auschwitz in 1990 with 4 million names on them?  And perhaps
>>you could quote the "new data and figures" from your new Jewish
>>Encyclopedia  so we can all see that your books' editors in 1918-19
>>gave out false information to the public, but NOW it is all corrected
>>and how this was done?
>>	Or are we not allowed to "meddle" in these affairs?
>>Judit Toth
>>============
>
>	This is a funny post. Mr.Stein's replies that is.

    In that case, Tommy's post is funny, since he doesn't quote a single
word of my replies.  I guess that makes it easier to lie about them.


>	I didn't catch this post when it was first put out, but it sorely
>stresses Jewish population claims.

    How so, Tommy?


>	Sometimes I get the notion the Jews just put out stuff to create
>a big ambiguity. They evidently think that by doing so, it will
>complicate things so much that no one will be able to conclude on
>anything. 
>
>	As Mr.Stein's reply shows, they just deny whatever is convenient
>and nod to that which is convenient.

    Nowhere in my post did I nod to or deny anything about the numbers,
Tommy.  I simply pointed out that Ms. Toth said one number was correct and
another number had to be changed, but did not explain why she picked the
number she picked and changed the number she changed.  I pointed out she
could have kept the other number and changed the first one, or averaged
the two numbers together, and there was no reason I could see to do it the
way she did it instead of one of the other two ways.

    I asked her to explain.  She refused to do so.


>	This works. On the idiotic mind that is.	 

    As Tommy's reply shows, he either could not understand what was said,
or lied about it.  This works.  On the idiotic mind, that is. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Oct 11 12:14:19 PDT 1996
Article: 73323 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Giwer makes amazing discovery
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 11 Oct 1996 11:37:30 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <53lpjq$3ov@access5.digex.net>
References: <53i6th$hed@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>  <53ks05$bs@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:73323 alt.usenet.kooks:29893

In article <53ks05$bs@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>On Thu, 10 Oct 1996 09:39:06 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>wrote:
>
>>mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>
>># When I find out who is making the harrassing phone calls,
>
>>Were you not a proven pathological liar, I would have considered
>>the possibility that you're telling the truth. But frankly, I
>>don't believe anyone is making such calls.
>
>	Too bad they have been found, the three jews who have been behind this.
>You have read the post, have you not?  Internic does not lie.  

    Internic knows who makes harrassing phone calls?  And posts that
information?  Really?  Fascinating.  I had no idea.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access3.digex.net Sun Oct 13 08:51:46 PDT 1996
Article: 73820 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access3.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.usenet.kooks,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More provocation
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 13 Oct 1996 10:43:59 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <53qv7f$308@access3.digex.net>
References: <52f1up$gpf@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <532e3g$s4f@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <53hjv1$f0c@access5.digex.net> <53m0gt$at5@is05.micron.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access3.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.usenet.kooks:29959 alt.revisionism:73820

In article <53m0gt$at5@is05.micron.net>,
Kurt Stele  wrote:
>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>>>>    Are you telling us that you would be seized by an uncontrollable and
>>>>instinctive urge to riot if a tunnel opened near your house?
>>>
>>>	I am not a jew.  I would not be so stupid.  
>
>>    It was not Jews who were rioting.  So I guess that means you are even
>>more stupid. 
>
>>    In addition to being a confessed liar, of course. 
>
>Look at Mike Stein ridiculing Arabs

    Actually, Mike Stein is ridiculing Matt Giwer, using his own previous
standards.

    Apparently you are too dim or too dishonest to grasp the point.

>for their understandable protest against the
>desecration of their cultural and religious monuments by Jews for tourism.   
>
>Yet remember, that many Jews protest for the release of Jonathan Pollard, 
>claiming he is a hero and persecuted victim.

    There is a difference between protesting and rioting.

    I guess you are either too dim or too dishonest to grasp that point as
well.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access3.digex.net Sun Oct 13 08:51:47 PDT 1996
Article: 73821 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-lond.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access3.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Giwer and "Moshe" - some absolutely amazing coincidences
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 13 Oct 1996 10:02:31 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <53qspn$1hc@access3.digex.net>
References:  <53fn81$dr9@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <53kmfu$mh@is05.micron.net> <53nn94$aks@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access3.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy:98764 alt.revisionism:73821 alt.usenet.kooks:29960

In article <53nn94$aks@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
Just Moshe  wrote:
>	This Giwer should be ours as he solidifies the People with their Land.  
>
[...]
>
>=====
>Read the information holohuggers fear
>http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
>http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
>http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
>http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side
>http://www.air-photo.com/ what was really there
>htte://www.adam.com.au/~fredadin/adins/html ADELAIDE

    Funny thing how this Giwer and this Moshe sometimes have the same
.signature file.  Note also the fact that "Moshe" not only posts from
Giwer's provider, worldnet.att.net, but even has a Tampa NNTP posting
host (Giwer's hometown). 

    What an amateur.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access3.digex.net Sun Oct 13 11:34:20 PDT 1996
Article: 73830 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news1.wtn.mci.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news-in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access3.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Rosa Lopez vs Ada Bimko
Date: 13 Oct 1996 10:33:40 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <53quk4$2k6@access3.digex.net>
References:  <53qgbl$sin@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access3.digex.net

In article <53qgbl$sin@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>I forgot to add:  Lying appears to be a hallmark of Holocaust
>affirmation.

    Strange, my experience is that it seems to be a hallmark of Holocaust
denial.  Jeff Roberts just joined the list this morning.


-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Oct 14 08:45:59 PDT 1996
Article: 74004 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!uunet!news-in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: For the enrichment of NIZKOR's archives!
Followup-To: alt.usenet.kooks
Date: 13 Oct 1996 22:24:23 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <53s88n$m0l@access5.digex.net>
References: <53dqam$b41@news1.total.net> <53hjjq$4g1@news1.total.net> <325CB093.41C6@itsa.ucsf.edu> <32690573.4187262@199.0.216.204>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:74004 alt.usenet.kooks:29995

In article <32690573.4187262@199.0.216.204>,
tom moran  wrote:
>
>	When one idiot makes a stupid statement and gets exposed, another
>one jumps in to say it was all a joke.

     Really?  I must have missed all the times people jumped in to say
little Tommy's lies were really all jokes.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access3.digex.net Mon Oct 14 08:45:59 PDT 1996
Article: 74090 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!nntp-hub2.barrnet.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access3.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Jeff Roberts tells a deliberate lie
Date: 13 Oct 1996 10:12:00 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <53qtbg$1pi@access3.digex.net>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access3.digex.net

In article ,
Jeffrey   wrote:
>
>The Franks had been arrested and had been taken away.......
>
>What happened next? Who found the "diary" [actually written by her dad]?

    The diary has been authenticated by forensic testing, and Jeff has
been told that the diary has been authenticated by forensic testing.  The
diary was edited for publication by her father, but that is not the same
thing. 

    Jeff Roberts has lied, and that is a charge I do not make lightly. 

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Oct 15 09:46:02 PDT 1996
Article: 74478 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!uunet!news-in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Giwer forges articles again
Date: 15 Oct 1996 11:24:11 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <540aar$f1c@access5.digex.net>
References: <53vgac$hrp@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <53vgac$hrp@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Matt Giwer posing as Gord McFee  wrote:
                                        ^^^^^^^  whoops!

>Just unzip to a directory and browse index.htm.  
>
>It is agreed this is beyond the ability of so many holohuggers but give it
>a shot, learn something.  

    It is agreed that Matt Giwer is a liar - even Matt Giwer agrees.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html


    It is also agreed that Matt Giwer can't even do a competent article
forgery. 

    Those with recent versions of newsreaders in the rn family who wish to
killfile confessed liar and forger Matt Giwer no matter what name he
forges may be able to do so via:

    /^NNTP-Posting-Host.*tampa.*att.net/h:j
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Oct 15 09:46:04 PDT 1996
Article: 74481 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!chi-news.cic.net!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Six heads are better than one
Date: 15 Oct 1996 11:59:17 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <540ccl$fjc@access5.digex.net>
References: <53umjd$lin@access5.digex.net> <53vpcv$bau@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <53vpcv$bau@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>>   mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) writes:
>>  In article <53scko$fvh@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>>  >According to the author of the book, "A Secret
>>  >Press in Nazi Europe" the following was related:
>>  >
>>  >Malka Epstein, a Jewish girl from Kielce, Poland,
>>  >became a legendary partisan.  [...]
>>  
>>  >Comment:  These events must have endeared 
>>  >the Jewish population to the Nazi authorities. [...]
>>  
>>      One wonders how the Nazi authorities knew at the time that it was Jews
>>  doing it. 
>>  
>OK.  I will quote further father, or is it father further?
>(Stanley Kaufman's line, in case you weren't aware)
>
>Here's the rest of the quote:
>
>"The German failure to capture Makla Epstein
>was a bitter pill for the Nazis to swallow."

    This still does not answer the question.  It merely appears to assert
that the Nazis knew who she was (though this is not definite - see below). 
It still provides no explanation of a) how they knew who she was, nor b)
how they knew which exploits were hers.  Did she send them notes after the
fact like the IRA does when they plant bombs?

    The sentence as written would still be legitimate even if the author
could have written:

    "The German failure to capture the unknown partisan who caused them
such trouble (though we now know it was Malka Epstein) was a bitter
pill...."
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Oct 15 10:56:42 PDT 1996
Article: 74492 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!winternet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Just Moshe Speaks
Date: 15 Oct 1996 11:42:43 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <540bdj$fdi@access5.digex.net>
References: <53vi49$seg@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <53vi49$seg@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>, Matt Giwer
simultaneously posting as Just Moshe and also Gordon McFee
 wrote:

>	Is there a problem with holding conversation with a handle?  

    Matt Giwer seems to think so.

    "Idiot handles, dickless wonders too cowardly to use their own name,
are scum."

(Matt Giwer, article ID <52ooco$lvm@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
30 Sept 1996)

    Matt Giwer seems to think you are a dickless wonder and scum.  Why
don't you take it up with him, Matt?  Do let us know which dickless scum
wins the argument. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Oct 15 10:56:43 PDT 1996
Article: 74503 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!mongol.sasknet.sk.ca!canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca!news.total.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: he who made the assertions
Date: 15 Oct 1996 12:11:23 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <540d3b$fpl@access5.digex.net>
References: <53vl54$dpd@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <53vl54$dpd@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
Matt Giwer forging as Danial Keren  wrote:
>	This was originally invoked upon the holohuggers claims.  
>
>After that they did the usual "I am rubber you are glue" routine but
>never posted their evidence.  

    That is an outright lie.  I listed a baker's dozen pieces of physical
evidence on 26 September.  Search DejaNews for the keyword list

    physical just rauff becker door handwritten

Note that Matt Giwer even followed up to the article, so he cannot claim
he missed it. 


>	It is typical holohugger.

    Lying is typical Matt Giwer.  Even Matt Giwer agrees he lies.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Oct 15 17:18:45 PDT 1996
Article: 74581 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: keep it moving - holo1015.zip (0/1)
Date: 15 Oct 1996 19:04:22 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <54159m$rh1@access5.digex.net>
References: <53ve9h$c68@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <53ve9h$c68@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
Matt Giwer posting as EE  wrote:
>Reflections on the Holocaust
>

    You really should post under your own name, Matt.

    Otherwise a fellow named Matt Giwer will call you dickless scum.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Oct 16 00:28:20 PDT 1996
Article: 74661 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dish.news.pipex.net!pipex!pipex-sa.net!iafrica.com!newnews.mikom.csir.co.za!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 961015: Jonathan Pollard
Date: 15 Oct 1996 20:07:55 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <54190r$sml@access5.digex.net>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:3012 alt.revisionism:74661

In article ,
E. Zundel Repost  wrote:
>------------ BEGIN ZUNDELGRAM MESSAGE ------------
>
>October 15, 1996
>
>Good Morning from the Zundelsite:
>
>When Jonathan Pollard, born in America, was arrested, exposed, tried,
>sentenced and sent to a long prison term as a spy working for the country
>of his first loyalty, Israel, it was drummed into us repeatedly by lapdog
>media that, despite this one bad apple, ". . . the Jews are loyal to
>America, and Israel is America's greatest democratic ally in the Middle
>East . . . " or even ". . . Israel is America's ONLY ally. . . "
>
>The following organizations are now on record for having lined up behind
>this American traitor and spy for Israel for a commutation of his sentence
>- a man who has been described as having hurt America as much as did the
>atomic spies of late '40s, the Rosenbergs, who were dispatched to their
>reward - over noisy Jewish-Marxist protests.
>
>Today I simply want to let the evidence speak for itself without any
>additional editorial wisdom from me.

    There is some evidence which I find conspicuous by its silence:  the
evidence of the assertion that Pollard "hurt America as much as did the
atomic spies." 

    I keep hearing the claim, but never do I see the evidence to back it
up.  If you can supply it, I'll be happy to listen to it speak. 

    Pollard violated his oath and the law.  That is not at issue.  But
Pollard received a stiffer sentence than many who sold crucial information
to the Soviets back in the bad old days.  Now, you could well argue that
the other people should have received harsher sentences - I certainly
would agree - but there is a legitimate question as to why Pollard was
treated differently. 

    Posted/emailed to Ingrid Rimland.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Oct 18 00:15:43 PDT 1996
Article: 75244 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism
Subject: 961011: Battle Roster
Supersedes: <5468m5$el0@access5.digex.net>
Date: 17 Oct 1996 17:40:59 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <54695b$ev7@access5.digex.net>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:3019 alt.revisionism:75244

In article ,
E. Zundel Repost  wrote:
>The Zundelgrams are posted to alt.fan.ernst-zundel and alt.revisionism
>daily, unedited. The opinions expressed do not represent the views of the
>poster, who is not the author. See X-Headers for relevant URLs. A good
>place to start is http://www.nizkor.org/features/ or, if you're in Europe,
>http://www1.de.nizkor.org/nizkor/
>
>------------ BEGIN ZUNDELGRAM MESSAGE ------------
>
>October 11, 1996
>
>Good Morning from the Zundelsite:
>
>Another milestone has been passed:  We have the historical "Leuchter
>Report" on-line.  I haven't yet checked all the links, but after today we
>are beaming it into the world.

    The work of a proven perjuror who misrepresented his qualifications?
The really fun thing is that a number of his claims are directly rejected
by other "revisionists," such as Mattogno.  Apparently such little
problems with the Leuchter Report are not a problem to Ernst.

    Other problems with the Leuchter Report may be found at:

http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/leuchter/

    Posted/emailed to Ingrid Rimland.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Oct 19 10:44:18 PDT 1996
Article: 75614 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nova.thezone.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: How much of one could the other really eat?
Date: 17 Oct 1996 16:46:56 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <546600$ckt@access5.digex.net>
References:  <53v6l5$d7e@is05.micron.net> <5415s2$roh@access5.digex.net> <541g9f$hqp@is05.micron.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <541g9f$hqp@is05.micron.net>,
Kurt Stele  wrote:
>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>>    I seriously doubt that the witness meant the words literally.
>
>>    If you think otherwise, perhaps you should also complain to the
>>sportswriters who said that Atlanta annihilated, shellacked, destroyed,
>>murdered, etc. St. Louis last night.  After all, the city is still there,
>>the players are still alive, and they don't even have a coat of varnish on
>>their skin.
>

>yeah, and baseball players were never put on trial on the strength of the
>same eyewitness testimony that falsely claimed steaming, electrocution,
>ripping the breasts of women, and a thousand other ridiculous tales
>without any evidence.  Obviously, they took the ridiculous accounts
>SERIOUSLY.  And now you say they should be considered metaphorical.

    I said ONE line should be considered a figure of speech (not
metaphorical, please learn what the word means).  "Eating alive" is a
reasonably common expression in English.  "We went camping and the
mosquitos ate us alive!"  It's also used in a sports setting, as when one
athlete says to another before a game, "I'm going to eat you alive." 
(Also: "I'm going to eat you for lunch.")

    Now you put words into my mouth and try to claim I made comments about
other testimonies, a completely dishonest interpretation of my words.

    As I said, revisionists base arguments on illegitimate interpretations
of the words of others.  Thank you for supplying another example. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Sat Oct 19 19:48:12 PDT 1996
Article: 75773 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!mr.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The plunder of the victims:retractation
Date: 19 Oct 1996 21:06:46 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <54btv6$d61@access4.digex.net>
References: <549dld$257@Vir.com> <549q1p$b4l@is05.micron.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article <549q1p$b4l@is05.micron.net>,
Kurt Stele  wrote:
>Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:
>
>>  Since we know in advance that this document is a forgery [...]


>There's Keren again posting knowingly false documents on the net, trying
>to deceive the goyim. 

    There's Stele again, proving he can't read with comprehension.

    Let me explain this one to you real slowly.

    Mr. Beaulieu posted a followup to Dr. Keren's document, saying it was
a forgery.  The text I left in above is from his first post.

    The main reason he said it was a forgery is because the numbers were
unrealistic.

    However, in his _second_ post, he admitted that he read too quickly,
and that what he thought was 20,000 kilograms was really 20.000 kg.  (In
case you don't know, in Europe they use a comma where Americans use a
decimal point and vice versa.)

    He said that with the lower number, the document was credible.  He did
not accept it as genuine, but he said it was not proved a forgery by
unrealistic numbers, as he first thought.  But you cut all that text out
of your followup.

    I would have thought that the word "retraction" might have given you a
clue.  But I guess not.


>Poor little hoax.

    Illiterate little Stele.

    Or is it dishonest little Stele?

    Of course the two are not mutually exclusive.


-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Sat Oct 19 19:48:13 PDT 1996
Article: 75779 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!uunet!news-in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: How much of one could the other really eat?
Date: 19 Oct 1996 21:37:10 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 54
Message-ID: <54bvo6$dun@access4.digex.net>
References:  <53v6l5$d7e@is05.micron.net> <5415s2$roh@access5.digex.net> <326c7f2a.1383450@199.0.216.204>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article <326c7f2a.1383450@199.0.216.204>,
tom moran  wrote:
>>In article <53v6l5$d7e@is05.micron.net>,
>>Kurt Stele  wrote:
>>>jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>>>
>>>>I am not making this up.
>>>
>>
>>>So what?  Is her claim not another good example of how "holocaust"
>>>eyewitnesses constantly exaggerate?
>>
>>    No.  It's a good example of how Holocaust deniers constantly read text
>>in unnatural and strained ways looking for any possible "evidence" they
>>can use to call the witness a liar.
>>
>>>I too seriously doubt the story that a dog ate another man "alive" 
>>
>>    I seriously doubt that the witness meant the words literally.
>
>	When you givbe testimony it should be "literally".

    People still use figures of speech, even in testimony.


>did anyone ask
>for full clarification? Maybe Stein would have it that when a witness
>testifired that they could hear pilots laughing as they flew by was
>not speaking "iterally".

    I interpret text in its own context.  I would have to go back and look
at the item in question again to see if a) it was even testimony in the
first place, and b) whether I think it was meant literally.  As best I
recall, my impression was that the person _believed_ she actually heard
the pilots laughing - that is, that she meant it literally.


>>    If you think otherwise, perhaps you should also complain to the
>>sportswriters who said that Atlanta annihilated, shellacked, destroyed,
>>murdered, etc. St. Louis last night.  After all, the city is still there,
>>the players are still alive, and they don't even have a coat of varnish on
>>their skin.
>
>	Here goes Stein off to another topic.

    There is only one topic.  That topic is reading honestly and
intelligently. 

    The reason you think I went off on another topic is that you are not
capable of either one.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Oct 20 09:44:03 PDT 1996
Article: 75871 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The plunder of the victims:retractation
Date: 20 Oct 1996 08:34:28 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 98
Message-ID: <54d68k$cr6@access5.digex.net>
References: <549dld$257@Vir.com> <549q1p$b4l@is05.micron.net> <54btv6$d61@access4.digex.net> <54c11j$2he@is05.micron.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

    Kurt Stele provides additional proof of his illiteracy:

In article <54c11j$2he@is05.micron.net>,
Kurt Stele  wrote:
>mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>>>There's Keren again posting knowingly false documents on the net, trying
>>>to deceive the goyim. 
>
>>    There's Stele again, proving he can't read with comprehension.
>
>>    Let me explain this one to you real slowly.
>
>>    Mr. Beaulieu posted a followup to Dr. Keren's document, saying it was
>>a forgery.  The text I left in above is from his first post.
>
>>    The main reason he said it was a forgery is because the numbers were
>>unrealistic.
>
>>    However, in his _second_ post, he admitted that he read too quickly,
>>and that what he thought was 20,000 kilograms was really 20.000 kg.  (In
>>case you don't know, in Europe they use a comma where Americans use a
>>decimal point and vice versa.)
>
>>    He said that with the lower number, the document was credible.  He did
>>not accept it as genuine, but he said it was not proved a forgery by
>>unrealistic numbers, as he first thought.  But you cut all that text out
>>of your followup.
>
>>    I would have thought that the word "retraction" might have given you a
>>clue.  But I guess not.
>

[...]



>Er, uh, Mike, did you even bother to read JFB's post?:  

    Why, yes.  Of course.  I read it all, including the very end, which 
you seem to have missed twice.  Why don't you go back and reread it
yourself, especially the very last part?


>"I know in advance that this one is a typewritten document
>that bears no signature or a typewritten signature. [...]

    Now, here's a free reading lesson for you.  "I know in advance" means
he didn't even check it out; he is simply _assuming_ that.  And this is
>from  the first, retracted post. 


>The document Keren posted is a FORGERY.  Do you understand the term?

    I would say my English comprehension is at least an order of magnitude
better than yours.  Have you learned the difference between a metaphor and
a figure of speech yet?


>No signature or even a typewritten one!

    Mr. Stele, please get your seeing-eye dog to read you the following
text from the bottom of Mr. Beaulieu's recent post:

    "I'm still unable to locate the reference and see if it is a signed
document[....]"

    In other words, Mr. Beaulieu again admits he doesn't know if the
document is signed or not.

    Maybe I'd better repeat that in capital letters since you seem to have
such reading disabilities:

    "I'M STILL UNABLE TO LOCATE THE REFERENCE AND SEE IF IT IS A SIGNED
DOCUMENT[....]"

    IN OTHER WORDS, MR. BEAULIEU AGAIN ADMITS HE DOESN'T KNOW IF THE
DOCUMENT IS SIGNED OR NOT.

    Do you?


>Hello, Mike "Stein".  Knock, knock..
>
>Nice try.   Not.
>
>Dimwit.

    I'd hate to have your podiatry bills from all the bullet holes you put
in your foot.

    Do please let us know when you finish your remedial reading course.


-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Oct 20 09:44:04 PDT 1996
Article: 75872 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: How much of one could the other really eat?
Date: 20 Oct 1996 08:43:31 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <54d6pj$cv9@access5.digex.net>
References:  <326c7f2a.1383450@199.0.216.204> <54bvo6$dun@access4.digex.net> <54c0jr$2he@is05.micron.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <54c0jr$2he@is05.micron.net>,
Kurt Stele  wrote:
>mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <326c7f2a.1383450@199.0.216.204>,
>>tom moran  wrote:
>>>
>>>	When you givbe testimony it should be "literally".
>
>>    People still use figures of speech, even in testimony.
>

>This is garbage.  They want idiotic, metaphoric, and exaggerative
>testimony to be taken seriously enough to frame Germans yet when someone
>points out how absurd it is then they claim "Oh, it's just metaphorical. 
>You are unreasonable to take it so seriously." 

    As I said in text you dishonestly cut out, I judge each text in its
own context, and there are times when I do say the witness meant the claim
literally.  I read as honestly as I know how. 

    You should try it sometime.  Of course first you would need to learn
to read with comprehension.  Let us know when you master that skill. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Oct 20 09:44:04 PDT 1996
Article: 75874 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Blackmore Lies Again
Date: 20 Oct 1996 09:04:37 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 89
Message-ID: <54d815$d8r@access5.digex.net>
References: <5403go$af9@news.enter.net> <54241l$flf@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <54241l$flf@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>>   yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) writes
>
>Which, of course, iks not a schoolbook.
>
>Of course you will produce a schoolbook for us, won't you
>Yale?

    Your claim that they Poles were taught that the four million were all
Jews.  Therefore your burden of proof.  In any event, even if Yale
produces a schoolbook that does not make this claim, it does not prove
that no such schoolbook exists or existed.  This is another reason why you
bear the burden of proof - you are the one making the positive,
demonstrable claim.


>>  No mention of 4,000,000 "Jews."
>
>No, Yale, they were Hindus.

    Thank you for admitting there was no mention of Jews, and that you are
insisting your _assumption_ is fact.


>>  No mention of "Jews."  
>
>No, Yale, they were Eskimoes.

    Thank you for admitting there was no mention of Jews, and that you are
insisting your _assumption_ is fact.


>>  >  Well, Mr. Counselor, you can now add your name to the list
>>  >  of the other liars
>>  
>>  Actually what we can do is not bother to erase your name from the list of 
>>  distortionists.  
>
>Oh, I see.  "Big brother" compiles "lists"....but not like
>"Schindler's list", I take it.  Who is "we" by the way?
>>  
>>  >  >  	No reference to Jews.
>
>No, they were Bantu Pygmies.

    Thank you for admitting there was no mention of Jews, and that you are
insisting your _assumption_ is fact.


>>  Live with it.  The Poles were taught, correctly, 
>> that approximately 25% of the population of Poland was killed by your nazi 
>> heroes. 
>> They were never taught that 90% of Polish Jews were murdered; the word 
>>  "Jew" 
>> was never mentioned in their histories or in their classrooms.
>
>Liar.  I have a friend from Poland who emphatically
>states that it was.

    Was it in a printed text, or only from the teacher?  And what year was
this?

    And most importantly, was he taught that all four million were Jews?


>>  	You still have yet to produce a statement by the Poles that 4,000,000 
>>  "Jews" were murdered at Auschwitz.  The Poles were never taught that the 
>>  majority of victims were Jewish.
>>  
>>  	--YFE
>
>Q:  How do you know when a lawyer is lying?
>
>A:  His lips are moving.
>rb

    You have yet to produce a statement by the Poles that 4,000,000 "Jews"
were murdered at Auschwitz.

    The recently-removed tables at Auschwitz likewise did not say that the
four million figure referred to Jews.

    Q: How do you know when R. Blackmore is evading the issue?

    A: His keyboard is clicking.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Oct 20 09:44:05 PDT 1996
Article: 75877 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 961014: The bread crumb trail again
Date: 20 Oct 1996 09:14:59 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <54d8kj$dei@access5.digex.net>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:3027 alt.revisionism:75877

In article ,
E. Zundel Repost  wrote:
>------------ BEGIN ZUNDELGRAM MESSAGE ------------
>
>October 14, 1996
>
>Good Morning from the Zundelsite:
>
>As I am slowly slugging my way through the "66 Questions and Answers"
>regarding a contested "Holocaust" document in answer to the original
>challenge to have a "debate" with Nizkor-a term they strenuously objected
>to and abandoned in the wake of the global cyberspace standoff over
>Zundelsite material the world was not supposed to see- [...]

    Nizkor objected to the use of the term "debate" due to the fact that
the web medium makes true debate - claim, rebuttal, re-rebuttal - rather
difficult and tedious.  However, Nizkor was willing to go ahead with the
linking. 

    It was the Zundelsite which first screamed hysterically (and falsely) 
that the "debate" was cancelled by outside forces.  To me, at the time, it
looked like an excuse to back out by the Zundelsite.

    It still does.

    Do you have a response to the Nizkor material you want Nizkor to link
to?  Why not ask that the link be established?  Or are you afraid to have
your claims that Nizkor backed out clearly established as false?

    Posted/emailed to Ingrid Rimland.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Oct 20 09:44:06 PDT 1996
Article: 75878 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: JEW ADMIRES ZUNDELS COURAGE
Date: 20 Oct 1996 09:17:50 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <54d8pu$dhb@access5.digex.net>
References:  <53v65b$d7e@is05.micron.net> <3265F9D9.2781@itsa.ucsf.edu> <547epo$e60@is05.micron.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <547epo$e60@is05.micron.net>,
Kurt Stele  wrote:
>>> Christie: When you visited Auschwitz in the fall of 1945, did you
>>> specifically look for gas chambers?
>
>>Fall of 1945.  You do realize that the Nazis surrendered in May of 1945, 
>>don't you?
>
>The Jew Burg at Mandanek saw Zyklon B used to delouse and nothing more.

    Really?  Are you sure?  When was Burg in Majdanek, and what is your
source?

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Oct 20 09:44:06 PDT 1996
Article: 75880 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Now the permenant address
Date: 20 Oct 1996 09:21:12 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <54d908$dkk@access5.digex.net>
References: <326176B3.2D1D@nbnet.nb.ca> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article ,
  wrote:
>What happened? Did the unb finally receive enough complaints to pull your
>account??

    No, Keith received enough credits to pull a degree and a job in the
real world.  Students generally lose accounts when they leave school.

    "Acumen," eh?  Now _there_ is some real irony.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sun Oct 20 09:44:07 PDT 1996
Article: 75909 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: the moral battle
Date: 20 Oct 1996 11:55:35 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <54di1n$g9j@access5.digex.net>
References: <544q2v$a6s@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <544q2v$a6s@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
Matt Giwer wrote:
>The moral battle in the Holocaust issue is not between the holohuggers and
>the deniers but between those who would deny freedom of speech and those
>who speak freely and damn the holohuggers.  
>	
>	Good ideas drive out bad ideas.  Good speech drives out bad speech. 
>
>	Speech is not and can not  be evil save to those who fear it.  
>
>	Speech is only what it is, an expression of opinion.  Those who fear 
>an expression of opinion seek to condemn even theit own speech.  
>
>	Those who support banning speech support their own speech being 
>banned if the political will should turn against them.  
>
>	It it only in the market place of ideas, freely expressed, that we 
>can come to a truth.  
>
>	When speech is suppressed, when free expression is suppressed, we 
>can not come to a truth, only an obedience to suppression.

    Perhaps Matt Giwer would like to tell yet a fourth story about his
campaign to censor Rack Jite's website on Volant Turnpike.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Oct 22 07:41:13 PDT 1996
Article: 76291 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!nntp-hub2.barrnet.net!news.PBI.net!news1.rcsntx.swbell.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The plunder of the victims:retractation
Date: 22 Oct 1996 01:26:28 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <54hlu4$ckl@access5.digex.net>
References: <549dld$257@Vir.com> <54c11j$2he@is05.micron.net> <54d68k$cr6@access5.digex.net> <54f9e7$l2c@is05.micron.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <54f9e7$l2c@is05.micron.net>,
Kurt Stele  wrote:
>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>>    Maybe I'd better repeat that in capital letters since you seem to have
>>such reading disabilities:
>
>>    "I'M STILL UNABLE TO LOCATE THE REFERENCE AND SEE IF IT IS A SIGNED
>>DOCUMENT[....]"
>
>>    IN OTHER WORDS, MR. BEAULIEU AGAIN ADMITS HE DOESN'T KNOW IF THE
>>DOCUMENT IS SIGNED OR NOT.
>

>He never retracted his belief the document was a forgery.  He still
>thinks it is. 

    Um, Kurt?  If you will go back and read my post before the one you
just replied to, you will see that I explicitly acknowledged that he did
not say that he accepted it as genuine, only that he withdrew his claim
that the numbers were _prima facie_ proof of forgery.

    Perhaps you should forget the remedial reading lessons, and go have
that Alzheimer's checked out.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Oct 22 07:41:14 PDT 1996
Article: 76294 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!news.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: BEHOLD THE LIE
Supersedes: <54hmkp$d94@access5.digex.net>
Date: 22 Oct 1996 01:46:53 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 8
Message-ID: <54hn4d$dkg@access5.digex.net>
References: <326e8088.1733652@199.0.216.204>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

    Tommy, why don't you save people time and trouble and put that title
("Behold the lie") on all your posts which contain your own writing?  It
describes them so well. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Oct 22 07:41:15 PDT 1996
Article: 76297 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where have all the soldiers gone?
Date: 22 Oct 1996 02:02:30 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <54ho1m$e1g@access5.digex.net>
References:  <547u92$brf@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <547u92$brf@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>>   dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
>>  rblackmore@juno.com writes:
>>
>
>>  # Wonder what happened to those thousands
>>  # of human beings?
>>  
>>  I assume many of them died in Soviet captivity. Just like
>>  the approximately 3 million Soviets who died in Nazi captivity.
>
>Do you have proof 3 million Soviet prisoners of war died?  That
>conflicts with Stalin's statements to Churchill and Truman at Potsdam
>that 5 million Soviet troops died during the war, as opposed to 3.5
>-4 million Germans.

    Here is your free reading lesson for the day: "troops" is not the same
thing as "prisoners of war."  Three million prisoners of war who died plus
two million soldiers killed in action without being taken prisoner = five
million troops.  No conflict.  All clear now? 
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Oct 22 16:52:03 PDT 1996
Article: 76395 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: JEW ADMIRES ZUNDELS COURAGE
Date: 22 Oct 1996 15:35:20 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 74
Message-ID: <54j7lo$cba@access5.digex.net>
References:  <547epo$e60@is05.micron.net> <54d8pu$dhb@access5.digex.net> <54fbgf$oqq@is05.micron.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <54fbgf$oqq@is05.micron.net>,
Kurt Stele  wrote:
>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>>In article <547epo$e60@is05.micron.net>,
>>Kurt Stele  wrote:
>>>
>>>The Jew Burg at Mandanek saw Zyklon B used to delouse and nothing more.
>
>>    Really?  Are you sure?  When was Burg in Majdanek, and what is your
>>source?
>
>In-court eyewitness testimony.  As an exterminationist you should know
>better than to ask for any more than that. 

    I do know better than to _expect_ any more that that.  However, it has
now been clearly demonstrated that you are unable or unwilling to back up
your claims with evidence.  You did not even give the date.  I gave you
a chance to back down and admit you were wrong, or that you didn't know
for sure.  That would have been honest, and would have done you credit - 
there is no shame in admitting error; the shame comes in failing to do
so.  You flunked the test.

    It would be sufficient for me to leave it to the lurkers to decide if
your clear evasion of the call for a checkable reference is because you
are lying by omission and know you will be exposed as a liar if you give a
source, or admit that you don't even have one.  Unfortunately for you, I
already know that you are not telling the truth and can prove it.  Your
comrade Jeff Roberts quoted the relevant portion of Lenski's book in an
article he posted on 12th Sept 1996, article ID
, subject "Jew says that the Germans
are defamed."



During the war, Burg had lived in a district under Romanian control
which was reserved for Jews of the region. They had been collectively
"banned" because many had "greeted the Red army".
"It was a lot worse for us than in a concentration camp," Burg insisted.
"The German authorities looked after the inmates in the camps....we were
left to our own devices."



    In other words, Burg was never in Majdanek while it was a German
concentration camp.  Indeed, in Burg's testimony which Jeff Roberts
quoted, it is quite clear he never claims that he actually _saw_ the
Majdanek chambers used for lice, as Kurt Stele claimed.  Burg merely
asserted that this is all they were used for, without claiming to be an
eyewitness:



Christie: And did you find any evidence of gas chambers in 1945 at
Maidanek?
Burg: Yes.
Christie: And what were these gas chambers in Maidanek?
Burg They were to liquidate lice, fleas, et cetera. Bugs which caused
epidemics.



    Once again, since Kurt has reading difficulties:

    "DURING THE WAR, BURG LIVED IN A DISTRICT UNDER ROMANIAN CONTROL,
WHICH WAS RESERVED FOR JEWS OF THE REGION." 

    That is from a _revisionist_ post quoting from a _revisionist_ book,
Kurt. I knew about it even before I asked you the question.  I gave you
the chance to be honest, and everyone can see how you blew it. 
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Tue Oct 22 23:07:59 PDT 1996
Article: 76431 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!nntp-hub2.barrnet.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Survivor" Abraham Glinowieski-Beaten by the Invisible Man
Date: 22 Oct 1996 21:32:53 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 68
Message-ID: <54jsk5$9cv@access1.digex.net>
References: <54136p$bjg@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article <54136p$bjg@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>Here is some more "survivor testimony" i.e., more LIES<
>taken from "The Belsen Trial" pages 103, 105:
>
>Glinowieski:  Kramer caught me once in Auschwitz,
>about November, 1943, when I was in possession of 
>a small piece of bread and a little margarine.  Also
>I "collected" (Quotation marks mine-rb) a pair of
>jackboots and for this I received 25 strokes."
>
>Cross examined by Major Winwood, pages 105, 106:
>
>Winwood:  You mentioned an incident in October
>or November, 1943, when you received 25 strokes
>from Kramer at Auschwitz.  Do you not agree that
>we still had to wait a matter of five months after this
>date before Kramer ever came to Auschwitz?
>
>A:  No, it is not true.  
>
>Q:  In the statement you made to a British officer at Belsen, 
>why did you not mention this very painful incident?
>
>A:  Because only photographs of the S.S. men were
>shown to me and I was asked to say whether I could
>not accuse any of them?"
>
>End of Quotes.
>
>Ha!  Read it for yourselves.  Another liar.

    What definition of "liar" do you use?  Simply someone who says
something untrue?  But how is that different from an error?

    However, if the definition is (as I use) someone who _deliberately_
and _knowingly_ says something untrue, or who has good and sufficient
reason to know that what they said is untrue, then you cannot prove that
the witness was lying.  Dates and visual identifications, especially a
year or more after the fact, are suspect even without intent to lie.


>By the way, 
>I referred to the Auschwitz Chronicle regarding the months
>and years of Kramer's service at Auschwitz.  the result?:
>
>"In 1944 he returned to Auschwitz as Commander of 
>Birkenau but was transferred in November of that year 
>to Bergen-Belsen in the same function." Page 816.

    Excuse me?  The above text says he _returned_ to Auschwitz.  That
implies he was there a first time.  What were those dates?  Didn't the
Auschwitz Chronicle give them?


>Another day, another liar.
>
>"If you can't believe the messengers, how can you 
>believe the message?"

    Please reread my series of "Revisionist Def Comedy Jam" postings. 
Then get back to me on whether you really still want to use that as a rule
of inference.  I can always add more to the series if you like.  Or even
if you don't like. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Oct 25 09:01:37 PDT 1996
Article: 76801 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!node2.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!nntp.coast.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ode to Matt Giwer
Date: 24 Oct 1996 20:52:53 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 14
Distribution: X-no-archive: yes
Message-ID: <54p315$9o6@access5.digex.net>
References: <326f8456.1958622@news.demon.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <326f8456.1958622@news.demon.co.uk>,
Fergus McClelland  wrote:
>They seek him here,
>They seek him there,
>They seek Matt Giwer everywhere.
>Is he in Heaven, is he in Hell?

    There's no mystery about it.  He's in Tampa.

    In other words, you got it right the second time.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Fri Oct 25 09:01:38 PDT 1996
Article: 76815 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!news.ntsource.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fill Me In: What happened to the Giwer-Swine?
Date: 24 Oct 1996 21:33:17 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <54p5ct$b58@access5.digex.net>
References: <54fvdl$jb6@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> <326DABCF.4464A533@vertigo.combase.com> <199610231310.JAA11812@tor-srs1.netcom.ca> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article ,
Hardwire   wrote:
>Your ignorance at the situation is overwhelming.  I am not now, nor have 
>I ever been, of any relation to Matthias Giwer.  However, I happen to 
>know of the man's plight.  I also know of his persecutors.

    His chief persecutor is himself, of course.  Not that he is capable of
recognizing that fact.  He is morally responsible for his own plight.  The
man is a proven and even self-confessed liar.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Fri Oct 25 09:01:39 PDT 1996
Article: 76860 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fill Me In: What happened to the Giwer-Swine?
Date: 25 Oct 1996 04:03:51 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <54ps97$i5n@access4.digex.net>
References: <54fvdl$jb6@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> <326DABCF.4464A533@vertigo.combase.com> <199610231658.AA14832@world.std.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article ,
Hardwire   wrote:
>On Wed, 23 Oct 1996, Daniel Keren wrote:

[...]

>> 
>> Oh, for God's sake.  [Giwer's] account was revoked because he
>> posted numerous forgeries, made to appear as if posted by
>> me and other readers of the group. Don't tell me you missed
>> those hundreds of forgeries? I can post some, if you wish.
>> 
>
>What good would it do?  E-mail is not admissable as evidence in ANY 
>sense.  Anything can be forged, especially something as simple as 
>electronic mail.  Anyone with adequate knowledge of how to run an IP 
>spoofer can send mail that will appear for all practical purposes to come 
>from the president@whitehouse.gov if they wish.

    However, they cannot forge the ISP's sendmail logs, which prove that
Matt Giwer sent the email in question.

    And few people have the capability to do the kind of forgery you
claim.  Forging email or posts from someone else on your own site is
trivial, although there are a number of ways to goof which will still
allow me to tell the message is a forgery.  But I challenge you to send me
an email ostensibly from (e.g.) a Netcom user which I cannot tell is a
forgery from the headers alone.  I made the same challenge to Matt when he
made the same claim, and he never even tried to meet it.

    It's also difficult to forge posts from a host other than your own and
get the Path: line right.  Try it sometime.


>It's amusing to think that as well versed as you seem to be about 
>everything else, you seem to be below-grade in tolerance.  "Turn the 
>other cheek" must have been lost on you I presume?

    Do you tolerate mailbombing?


>Another thing I find HIGHLY amusing.  The newsgroups (and Email I will 
>add), is kind of like television, if you don't like the "flavour" of what 
>you're watching all you need do is to turn the channel.

    Then I guess you won't mind if someone sends you 100,000 (or even 100)
copies of the same 5MB (or even 5K) message into your mailbox.  All you
need do is turn the channel, right? 


>Yet it still 
>seems that fingers so adept at working the remote without sight can fail 
>so miserably to function when it comes time to "turn the channel".

    How does one turn the channel on libel?  You can refuse to read it,
but the problem is that everyone else is reading the allegation that you
are a pedophile.

    You seem to be below-grade in critical thinking skills.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Fri Oct 25 09:01:40 PDT 1996
Article: 76887 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fill Me In: What happened to the Giwer-Swine?
Date: 25 Oct 1996 04:19:18 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 79
Message-ID: <54pt66$ieg@access4.digex.net>
References: <54fvdl$jb6@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca>  <199610240623.XAA13601@zorro.bctel.ca> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article ,
Hardwire   wrote:
>
>
>On Wed, 23 Oct 1996, Rajiv K. Gandhi wrote:
>
>> (A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
>> alt.revisionism)
>>=20
>> E-mail is most certainly admissible in some circumstances. Whether or not=
> a
>> judge/jury finds it compelling is another story. As for forged e-mail, th=
>is
>> is certainly possible and simple to do. However, ISP logs can verify that
>> mail originated at a specific location. While this too can be forged, it
>> would require an effort of hacking which is outweighed by the resulting
>> payoff.
>>=20
>
>Wrongo.  It's about as admissable as tape-recordings on the bearing of=20
>any trial.  Purely introduced if at all allowed, simply to incite an=20
>emotional reponse from the jury.  Which you people seem to have done so=20
>well on this newsgroup.

    Does anyone else notice that the above paragraph is written in
post-hooch Giwerundean?  (But only early post-hooch Giwerundean.)

    I see you got your net.law degree from the same box of Cracker Jack
Matt Giwer did.


>> Again, turning the other cheek is one thing. However, Mr. Giwer (you know
>> him by a more familiar name, don=B9t you ?) engaged in a campaign of
>> harassment, uttering threats, mailbombs, and intimidation. This is crimin=
>al
>> behaviour - not speech that is protected under the 1st amendment.
>>=20
>
>I challenge you to prove that Giwer mailbombed or forged ANY Email=20
>addresses!  I want absolute proof only to be procured and posted by the=20
>very highest authority at said services with records on file.

    Proof is for mathematicians, remember?

    And of course courts do not deal in absolute proof, only the
preponderance of the evidence (civil) or beyond a reasonable doubt
(criminal). 

    The use of red herrings is a familiar Giwer trait.


>> Wrong, at least with respect to the actions of Mr. Giwer. Mr. Giwer
>> perpetrated a fraud, by forging e-mail addresses. This was not only
>> contrary to his ISP service agreement, it was illegal. In fact, Mr. Giwer=
>=B9s
>> every step has been to cross the line. By the way, with respect to e-mail=
>,
>> the only way to truly =8Cturn the channel=B9 is to pull the plug at the s=
>ource.
>>=20
>
>Or do like 100's of thousands of people do every day.  Get a decent=20
>filter.  You'd do it for your kids by locking out subjects that you=20
>wouldn't approve of them seeing.  Why can't you take the time to do it=20
>for yourselves?

    The problem is not your reading of libel against yourself, or forged
messages ostensibly coming from yourself.  It is that other people read it
and falsely believe the libel, or that the forged messages are really
coming from you. But you know that. 

    Suppose someone post a forged message apparently from you, threatening
to kill the president.  Tell me what kind of filter you would use to lock
out the consequences of that? 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Sat Oct 26 00:07:44 PDT 1996
Article: 77104 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More honey from the lips of Marduk.
Date: 24 Oct 1996 21:06:49 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <54p3r9$aa3@access5.digex.net>
References: <326F388C.370C171D@vertigo.combase.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <326F388C.370C171D@vertigo.combase.com>,
Hardwire   wrote:
>Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 23:30:04 -0400
>From: marduk 
>To: Hardwire 
>Subject: Re: Fill Me In: What happened to the Giwer-Swine?
>

[snip]

>>make sure you give mat and his nazi pig father a great big kiss
>
>
>Thanks, love you, too.  Hugs and kisses Marduk.
>
>Gosh he makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.  The rest of you must
>be proud to have such a fine spokesman such as he!
>
>Especially one cowardly enough not to post in public, but form his
>attacks through E-mail.
>
>-- Hardwire

    Well, if I am not allowed to speak for myself, I guess I'd rather have
Marduk as my spokesman and let you have Matt Giwer (the middle one) as
your spokesman.

    The fact that you are posting from Matt Giwer's old ISP has not
escaped my notice, BTW.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Sun Oct 27 11:34:38 PST 1996
Article: 77306 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde!nntp.primenet.com!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: JEW ADMIRES ZUNDELS COURAGE
Date: 25 Oct 1996 04:25:49 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 95
Message-ID: <54ptid$iji@access4.digex.net>
References:  <54fbgf$oqq@is05.micron.net> <54j7lo$cba@access5.digex.net> <54kjfb$j5o@is05.micron.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article <54kjfb$j5o@is05.micron.net>,
Kurt Stele  wrote:
>mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>
>>    That is from a _revisionist_ post quoting from a _revisionist_ book,
>>Kurt. I knew about it even before I asked you the question.  I gave you
>>the chance to be honest, and everyone can see how you blew it. 
>

>Sorry Mike "Stein."  Burg testified he was at Mandanek.

    Sorry Kurt "Stele."  That is not good enough.  I was in Dallas and I
did not see John F. Kennedy shot.  Now, what does that prove about the 
Kennedy assassination?  Nothing, of course.

    Though you tried very hard to avoid admitting it, Burg did not get to
Majdanek until after the war was already over.  Therefore he is not a
witness to what did or did not happen at Majdanek under the Nazis.  He did
not even say that he saw the Majdanek chambers used _at all_. 


>If you don't
>believe him, then ask HIM about it.  I quoted Burg correctly and despite
>your crusade to claim otherwise: 

    Wrong.  (Looks like "quote" is another word you don't know the meaning
of.)  You _paraphrased_ him, and did so incorrectly. You said that Burg
_saw_ the Majdanek chambers used.  Burg said no such thing. 


>Christie: And did you find any evidence of gas chambers in 1945 at
>Maidanek?
>Burg: Yes.
>Christie: And what were these gas chambers in Maidanek?
>Burg They were to liquidate lice, fleas, et cetera. Bugs which caused
>epidemics.
>
>Burg indeed testified the so-called "gas chambers" were used for delousing.

    But he was not an eyewitness.

    I have been to Manassas.  Am I qualified to testify about what
happened at First Bull Run?


>You claim Burg lived in a different geographical area.   So what?

    He was not an eyewitness to what happened in Majdanek during the time
that the Nazis were in control of Majdanek. 

    I have been to San Francisco.  Is my testimony of any value about the
San Francisco Fire?


>Maybe Burg was in the camp on a
>certain day, for a brief visit, or for some other reason.

    Once again, you need to get your seeing-eye dog to read you the
testimony.  The testimony explicitly mentions 1945. The Soviets captured
Majdanek in 1944.  Therefore Burg was not in the camp until after the
Nazis had evacuated it.  Therefore he cannot give eyewitness testimony
about what happened when the Nazis were running it.  All he can do is give
his opinion.  But that is not evidence. 

    To borrow a Giwerism, if you cannot understand that simple point, it
is a wonder you have survived this long.


>At any rate, revisionism doesn't need Burg's testimony, as it already has
>several solid bases to debunk the "Holocaust" lie.   No big deal.

    I've never heard Jello described as solid before.


>Either way, your problem is with the witness not with my quoting of him.

    Wrong again, but why spoil a perfect record?  You said Burg SAW the
gas chambers used for lice. Burg did not say that.  You misrepresented
what he said.  And you were clearly evading the important point about when
he was in Majdanek.  You were attempting to deceive people about Burg's
value as evidence. 


>Sorry to ruin your elaborate and quite determined efforts. 

    As I have shown, you were the one making elaborate and determined
efforts to misrepresent a) what Burg said (he never said he _saw_ the
Majdanek chambers in use), b) the time of Burg's presence at Majdanek, and
therefore c) Burg's value as a witness. Pretending Burg's testimony is of
any worth is exactly like my trying to pretend that my failure to see
Kennedy's assassination is evidence that it never happened.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access1.digex.net Sun Oct 27 11:34:39 PST 1996
Article: 77321 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.redshift.com!news.cis.okstate.edu!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!nntp.crl.com!news.PBI.net!news1.rcsntx.swbell.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: Dealing with Holocaust Denial
Date: 22 Oct 1996 21:56:07 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <54jtvn$ar3@access1.digex.net>
References: <540hnt$i8b@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <549d3d$qtl@is05.micron.net> <54b2iv$59l@juliana.sprynet.com> <326d7e75.6020658@news.sure.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:77321 alt.politics.nationalism.white:34299

In article <326d7e75.6020658@news.sure.net>,
Ursus Major  wrote:
>Finally, when confronted with evidence he simply could NOT explain
>away, Pressac came up with his (immortal?) dictum: "Well, I may not
>know how IT [The Holocaust(tm)] took place; but I just know it HAD to
>take happened!"

    Sorry for asking impertinent questions, but do you have a source for
that quote?  Or is it a "quote?" 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Oct 28 14:38:55 PST 1996
Article: 77548 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Höss's enterprising subordinate Hauptsturmführer Fritsch
Date: 28 Oct 1996 15:58:24 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <5536pg$ivk@access5.digex.net>
References:  <54s4km$100k@news.gate.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <54s4km$100k@news.gate.net>, Thisis Aforgery  
wrote [to Mark Van Alstine]:

>	I do wish to thank you for a fourth contradictory discussion of the "discovery" of the
>utility of Z-B.  Would you like a credit line?  

    You certainly need to catch up, then - you only provided three
contradictory descriptions of who did what to get Rack Jite's web pages
booted from Volant Turnpike. 

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Mon Oct 28 18:31:47 PST 1996
Article: 77574 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fill Me In: What happened to the Giwer-Swine?
Date: 28 Oct 1996 18:53:26 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <553h1m$eq@access5.digex.net>
References: <54fvdl$jb6@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca>  <199610261628.JAA16922@zorro.bctel.ca> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article ,
Hardwire   wrote [to Rajiv Gandhi]:
>
>
>Since when is changing your identity information in a Post to a Newsgroup
>breaking a Law?

    You misunderstood what Rajiv wrote.  He said, "On occasion, he broke
the law" without saying that it was the forgery.

    Matt posted libelous accusations that Gordon McFee made criminal
harrassing telephone calls to Matt.  Libel is a violation of civil law.

    On the criminal side, while I disagreed with other people about
the threatening nature of a few of Matt Giwer's posts, please see:

http://www.nizkor.org/encouragements/giwer.html

and tell me if you don't think that looks like attempted extortion at the
end with the demands that all mention of Matt be removed from Nizkor
coupled with a shadowy "unspecified penalties."  It certainly looks like
attempted extortion to me - a rather poor and idiotic attempt, perhaps,
but an attempt.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Tue Oct 29 08:53:58 PST 1996
Article: 77686 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!mr.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 961026: Just an ordinary guy
Date: 29 Oct 1996 10:48:47 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 74
Message-ID: <55590v$k0f@access5.digex.net>
References: <54ufg8$em@atlas.uniserve.com> <54v3u9$4lj@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <54v3u9$4lj@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
DvdThomas  wrote:
>H. Ostrov wrote:

[...]

>>>He merely acknowledged the FACT that a Gentile was less than a Jew.
>>>Precisely what I had read in the Talmud.
>>
>>FACT?!   Is this a new acronym I see before me? Fictitious Abstract
>>Contradicting Truth.  Oh, right!  I forgot - he "read [it] in the
>>Talmud" that he found on the Internet.  Yep.  Must a FACT.
>
>Well, Prof. Israel Shahak sure seems to think that this is how the hard
>line Orthodox folks view things.

    Well, some, to be sure - just as some hard-line Christians view all
non-Christians as condemned to eternal damnation.


>But what does he know, eh?

    That's a very good question.  Shahak's name cropped up fairly
frequently back a couple of years ago, when Wayne McGuire was posting
here.  Richard Schultz raised a couple of questions about Shahak's
accuracy.  I'll see if I can dig up the files.  As I recall, one was a
matter of overbroad interpretation, and the other was a problem finding
authentication of a story about an accident involving a non-Jew on Sabbath
which Shahak claims to have witnessed.


>For a
>graphic illustration, so to speak, of the loving attitude held toward
>Palestinians, check out:
>
>http://www.flinet.com/~politics/
>
>Be sure to look for the file called Dental.mov, a charming little 8 second
>film clip showing a blindfolded Palestinian teenager on the ground being
>shot several times in the face at close range, in dying color.

    I neither deny nor condone Israeli crimes against Palestinians - nor
do I raise Palestinian and other Arab crimes against Israelis as a
defense.

    However, what you wrote is a non sequitur.  Other than the fact that
both were formed by Jews, there is no connection between the Talmud and
the Israeli government - as many ultra-Orthodox will tell you with some
bitterness. 

    It is also a non-sequitur because it does not deal with the issue
gently raised by Hilary about the authenticity of the letter Ms. Rimland
reproduced.  Let me be a little more explicit.  Supposedly the anonymous
writer found excerpts from the Soncino Talmud on the Internet, but did
not give the URL.

    Now, I know there are excerpts out there - the majority of them taken
out of context and/or deceptively edited - but so far as I have seen, they
are found on sites whose antisemitism is pretty blatant.  Yet "Mr.
Ordinary Guy" didn't seem to notice anything about that. 

    You will therefore excuse me for harboring a small suspicion that the
letter in the Z-gram is about as authentic as most of those printed in
Penthose _Variations_.  I must stress that I have no evidence that Ingrid
was responsible for or even aware of any fabrication; she might be an
innocent dupe.  However, I invite her to contact her correspondent and
obtain the URL of these supposed Soncino Talmud excerpts.  I'd like to
know what it is.

    Posted/emailed to Ingrid Rimland.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Oct 30 16:55:58 PST 1996
Article: 77812 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More honey from the lips of Marduk.
Date: 28 Oct 1996 17:25:47 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <553btb$peo@access5.digex.net>
References: <326F388C.370C171D@vertigo.combase.com> <54p3r9$aa3@access5.digex.net> <54pb76$o2q@Networking.Stanford.EDU> <32713322.7C8BC50B@vertigo.combase.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <32713322.7C8BC50B@vertigo.combase.com>,
Hardwire   wrote:

[...]

>I'm not here on this newsgroup
>debating the man, I'm debating the fact that he has been kicked from 4
>ISP's (one particular ISP twice, on a technicality), and that it seems
>PRETTY DAMNED strange to me that ANYONE would SEEK that sort of thing. 

    Some people have been convicted of a crime and jailed half a dozen
times or more.  Does it also seem pretty damn strange to you that anyone
would seek that sort of thing?


>It seems more like a set-up to me, and to anyone who's the least bit
>sentient.

    So do you also think anyone who's been jailed for more than one crime
was more likely set up than actually guilty?

    I think your sentience is in need of a 50,000 mile tune-up.

[...]
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Wed Oct 30 22:00:20 PST 1996
Article: 77875 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!node2.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: R. Blackmore, public library
Date: 30 Oct 1996 13:19:43 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <55867v$hcf@access5.digex.net>
References: <54k1js$30t8$2@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <54k1js$30t8$2@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net>,
Gord McFee  wrote:
>I post the e-mail below that Mr. Blackmore sent me in answer to my posting the
>other day.  Readers checking the last line will notice that he gave me
>permission to post this.  Since my post was public, I believe his answer
>should be as well.

[snip]

> always promising to supply the references, but 
>>pleading
>>that his book collection was somewhere else, or he didn't have the 
>>time, or
>
>If I say this, it is because it is true, not because of any dissimulation
>on my part.
>I own about 40-65 thousand books.  I would think you could appreciate
>whether I can't find a particular source upon demand.

    Now this is truly fascinating.  To give people an idea of how many
books Mr. Blackmore claims to own, the Ann Arbor (MI) public library's web
site says that the library owns 460,000 books in four locations.  In other
words, he says his private collection is one-third to one-half the size of
the average Ann Arbor public library branch.  If he read three books a
day, it would take him over forty years to get through his collection even
taking the low number of his range. 

    Where _do_ you keep those books, Mr. Blackmore?  How much did they
cost you?  How long did it take you to acquire them?  How many of them
have you read? 

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Oct 31 10:28:07 PST 1996
Article: 77941 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photograph: Rascher's Letter Concerning the Dachau Gas Chamber
Date: 31 Oct 1996 10:15:03 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <55afpn$a59@access5.digex.net>
References: <3270cdff.2473539@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <54qptd$9a7@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <54qptd$9a7@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>   jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) writes:

>>  Why don't you surprise us all by telling us what Rascher *was*
>>  arrested for?
>
>Kidnapping, and I know it is no surprise to you.

    The reason for Rascher's arrest is not a surprise to me, although as I
recall you may be oversimplifying.  But it is indeed a surprise to me that
you openly admit you lied by omission. 

    In the context in which you made the statement, saying that Rascher
was executed by the SS while knowingly failing to mention that it had
nothing to do with the experiments was deceptive.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Oct 31 11:38:54 PST 1996
Article: 77953 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!smash.gatech.edu!cc.gatech.edu!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!metro.atlanta.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.be.innet.net!INbe.net!news.nl.innet.net!INnl.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,fl.general,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Attack on Alt.Revisionism -- Gate.Net Refuses to Help
Date: 31 Oct 1996 12:36:37 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <55ao35$jpf@access5.digex.net>
References: <558uaj$38a@panix2.panix.com> <559u0o$1m2s@news.gate.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.jewish:87759 alt.revisionism:77953

In article <559u0o$1m2s@news.gate.net>,
NotThisis4 Aforgery  wrote:
>rakshasa@panix.com (Kevin Filan) wrote:

    I see the troll's literacy has not improved with the switch to a new
provider.

>>	His latest stunt is to forge the From: line on each of his posts,
>>thereby making killfiles worthless.  
>
>	As a stereotypical Jew/holohugger, you lie.  I have never stated my 
>purpose and you are clearlly a liar in this post. 

    Kevin Filan did not make any claim about purpose.  All he did was
state an effect of the policy of changing names frequently.  Making
killfiles worthless is an effect whether it is intended or not.  (At least
it is an effect for some newsreaders; recent models of trn can focus on
the NNTP-Posting-Host line which cannot be forged.)

    And Kevin Filan is not Jewish.

    But of course the troll is a proven and self-confessed liar.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

    I will say that as long as the troll does not forge a From: line which
makes it seem as if the post came from another actual person, I have no
problem with his using a false name.  The troll has however stated that
people too cowardly to post under their own names are scum. 

    Posted/emailed to Kevin Filan.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access5.digex.net Thu Oct 31 16:59:00 PST 1996
Article: 77992 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Survivor" Abraham Glinowieski-Beaten by the Invisible Man
Date: 31 Oct 1996 18:23:44 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <55bce0$cso@access5.digex.net>
References: <54jsk5$9cv@access1.digex.net> <54qba4$bu@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <54qba4$bu@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>   mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) writes:
>  In article <54136p$bjg@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>>  >By the way, 
>>  >I referred to the Auschwitz Chronicle regarding the months
>>  >and years of Kramer's service at Auschwitz.  the result?:
>>  >
>>  >"In 1944 he returned to Auschwitz as Commander of 
>>  >Birkenau but was transferred in November of that year 
>>  >to Bergen-Belsen in the same function." Page 816.
>>  
>>      Excuse me?  The above text says he _returned_ to Auschwitz.  That
>>  implies he was there a first time.  What were those dates?  Didn't the
>>  Auschwitz Chronicle give them?
>
>Yes, but they did not coincide with the date given by Mr. G.

    Since you do not hesitate to point out when other people fail to
answer question I will observe that you did not answer the question: what
were those dates?  I would like to know just how far off they were from
the date given by Mr. G.

    Posted/emailed.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From mstein@access4.digex.net Thu Oct 31 18:45:30 PST 1996
Article: 77999 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!news.alfred.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-hub.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The "revisionist" retreat
Date: 30 Oct 1996 02:18:13 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <556vfl$sph@access4.digex.net>
References: <53s0p2$18a@juliana.sprynet.com> <546olg$sqe@newsbf02.news.aol.com>  <54kkul$j5o@is05.micron.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article <54kkul$j5o@is05.micron.net>,
Kurt Stele  wrote:

>Actually, it does get boring asking for any physical evidence at all for
>extermination by gassing, over and over and continually being presented
>with only the goofy eyewitness stuff. 

    Actually, it does get boring presenting the physical evidence (such as
the letter from Bischoff to Kammler mentioning a GASSING CELLAR in Krema
II, the inventory control sheet showing showerheads in a room whose
construction plans show no shower plumbing, a gas-tight door with the
protective grille on the _inside_ of the door, letters from Becker and
Just to Rauff about gassing vans) and continually having dishonest deniers
like Kurt Stele claim that no physical evidence has been presented.

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.



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