The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust final exam
Date: 7 Jul 1996 14:25:21 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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References: <177B49EB4S86.BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU> <4r4oba$c6n@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <177B69A84S86.BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU> <4r75ti$lgu@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
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In article <4r75ti$lgu@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
  wrote:
>	The persistance of the myth does not need any nebulous conspiracy or
>guilt to explain.  All you have to do is read what the holohuggers post
>on this conference as a microcosm of the real world.  

    The failure of "revisionists" to shake this "myth" does not need any
repression to explain.  All you have to do is to read the lies,
distortions, false logic, and other intellectual shortcomings in the works
of revisionists - including Mr. Giwer himself - and it becomes quite clear
that the "real world" is something they are hardly qualified to talk
about.


>	It is not permitted to publically express any questions about the
>current dogmatic form of the holocaust in any public media.  In some
>countries it is illegal to do so in any media, public or private.  

    This was not always the case even in Germany (and I do wish they would
repeal the laws, as it gives people like Mr. Giwer a wonderful red herring
to wave about).  It is certainly not the case in this country. 

    Mr. Giwer has complained of conspiracies to censor him and harrass him
and his family due to his posts here.  He can, of course, supply no
evidence other than his own word, which has been proved false on many
occasions - and he can, of course, provide no evidence that any genuine
harrassment has come as a result of his questioning of the Holocaust,
rather than his provable lies and libel.  But he pretends to be unaware
that one can avoid that in this forum through the use of anonymous
remailers such as anon.penet.fi. 

    Revisionists have come into this forum and left after they were unable
to reply to rebuttals of their logic and falsification of their evidence.
Mr. Giwer's lies to the contrary, Greg Raven was presented with cogent
critiques of his methodology and of the distortions and dishonest
omissions contained in the sources he cited for his own arguments.  Like
Mr. Giwer, he now refers to reminders of his own proven dishonesty as
"personal attacks."

    Friedrich Berg was presented with technical references on toxicology
and gaping holes in his own reasoning, plus evidence that he distorted
material he cited in his own work.  Mr. Giwer has been presented with my
material addressing Berg on more than one occasion.  Despite Mr. Giwer's
professed scientific and engineering background, Mr. Giwer has not been
able to offer any substantive response to it.

    Michael Hoffman got similar treatment; his references were checked
(the affidavits of Morgen and Mittelstadt) and it was shown how he was
reading them in a completely invalid manner.  He too provably lied - not
about the Holocaust, but about his justification for denigrating my
knowledge of Hebrew.  (His claimed justification was a comment I made
nearly three weeks _after_ his insult was delivered.  I don't _think_ he
owns a time machine.) 


>	I would have thought the reason for the persistance was obvious by
>inspection.

    Mr. Giwer has shown some deficiencies in the thinking department
before.  Not to mention the reading comprehension and memory departments.


>	The issue you point out is another matter, it is questioning why people
>would raise it to the status of a cult and why there would be such
>vigorous defense of whatever the current truth happens to be.  The
>"explanations" the holohuggers give, such as preventing it from
>happening again, are obviously transparent and false.  

    BECAUSE!  I!  SAY!  SO!

    I wonder if Mr. Giwer would like to turn a similar skeptical eye on
the explanations of the IHR "revisionists" as to the motives for their
vigorous efforts to disprove any Nazi policy of mass murder, using
doctored "evidence" if need be.


>	What you cite is merely one suggestion as to why this is done.  Blood
>money for Israel is another suggestion.  However at this point the
>reasons suggested are speculation.  
>
>	Consider the difference in Russia.  They trot out their war heroes in
>November and remember losses on that day and it is over for another
>year.  But in November the main speeches are of triumph, of winning the
>war.  
>
>	However a better analogy would be in there were monuments and museums
>and regular public speeches in Germany commemorating losing the war.  It
>is as though the South commemorated losing the War between the States.
>As though England commemorated the lose of the American colonies, Mexico
>the loss of Texas and California.  
>
>	This holocaust memorializing is a total inversion of human nature.

    So too is the complete lack of recantation of those supposedly coerced
false confessions.  One or two might be explainable as the kind of
brainwashing of the witchcraft trial kind, as some "revisionists" feebly
try to pretend, but the number of testimonies contrary to self-interest
is, in my view, too large - and too unbalanced by later retraction - to be
convincing.  Mr. Giwer is welcome to address this point, which I have
raised before and which no "revisionist" has dared to touch. 


>As I
>have said before, it is like the widow who visits the grave of her
>husband every Sunday and has not changed anything in the house since the
>day he died.  
>
>There is something very, very wrong with this behavior.  It needs help,
>not encouragement.  

    The same can be said of Mr. Giwer's behavior.  He claims that he is
just trying to get this newsgroup back on track, without personal attacks. 
However, he has run away from discussions of cremation and of diesel
exhaust gassing which he initiated.  Clearly he doesn't have the capacity
to debate the material with someone who has some familiarity with it. 

    And he has also said he is here to debunk.  (But what kind of
debunking is it that needs to lie, as Mr. Giwer has provably done, time
and again?)  Earlier said that his purpose here was to amuse himself
dealing with the type of people he found here - in other words, to troll. 

    It is hard to see how all of Mr. Giwer's statements here can be true. 
Many are provably false.  This is not a personal attack; it is a statement
of fact which I have backed up with self-contradictory quotes from Mr. 
Giwer's own posts as well as comparison of the words of others (including
my own) with Mr. Giwer's blatant misrepresentations of those words, and
his dishonest editing. 

    Anytime Mr. Giwer wishes to engage in serious debate about the
Holocaust he is free to do so and I am here for him.  But he cannot read
with comprehension, cannot remember what he has read (or, sometimes,
written!) and has run away from substantive discussion of issues where he
claims to have a solid grounding, technical and scientific issues.  It is
clear that he cannot cope with the material, so he must lie and spam and
troll and hope to distract people from the intellectual failures which are
well-documented in his own posts.

    I have given him every opportunity to respond with serious debate, but
he has run away time and again, one time lying that I have deleted his
work (which I have not done, and he of course never offers documentation
of his own claims).  It is clear that he is just a lying troll who has no
real interest or ability to discuss these issues (or even understand them,
as he demonstrates repeated failures of reading comprehension).

    If he wants people to stop referring to him as a lying troll, all he
has to do is stop lying and stop trolling.  It is that simple.  But so far
he has shown no mental capacity to do anything better.  Too bad.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


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