The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/s/stein.michael/1996/giwer-lie-and-censor


Path: news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS SHUT DOWN
Date: 9 Jul 1996 12:04:10 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Message-ID: <4rtvtq$gdh@access5.digex.net>
References: <4rknub$m1q@Networking.Stanford.EDU> <4rr9ub$dbr@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>  <4rt2ue$5jn@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net

In article <4rt2ue$5jn@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,
Matt Giwer  wrote:
>On Mon, 08 Jul 1996 13:21:05 -0400, jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy)
>wrote:
>
>>mstein@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Mike Stein) wrote:
>
>>> Matt Giwer posted several supporting the censorhip of alleged defamatory
>>> lies (i.e., libel) prior to judicial determination of same, provided that
>>> the libel was not authored by Matt Giwer.
>
>>And, as you indicated in another thread, Mr. Stein, Matt Giwer's
>>intention was to get the complete site taken down, not just the libel in
>>question.
>
>>Matt Giwer also posted messages indicating that he was going to try to
>>get another site taken down for violation of copyright.  [...]

>	But as with all holohuggers are you are liar.
>
>	My complaint was legally with copyright violation.

    The only error I see in Jamie's post is that it was not another site,
it was the same site - Rack Jite's.  Perhaps our 163 IQ type will
entertain us with an explanation of how "copyright violation" is different
from "violation of copyright."  (I suspect he will remain silent on this
latest demonstration of his complete lack of reading comprehension.)

    But Mr. Giwer should try to keep his true truths straight.  Here are a
few choice excerpts from his previous posts - along with DejaNews URLs to
allow anyone to read the full history, should they choose, and determine
for themselves the truth of what I say here. 



    He says now that his complaint was with copyright violation?  But
back in March, he said he wasn't going to pursue the copyright violation,
it was the libel, ...

1996/03/09

       What could be recovered is not worth the cost of recovery.  I am
simply pointing it out.  I make  money on such work.  He has
appropriated something of value of mine for his own use.
        Beyond that of course it the libel.  The page will go away, one way
or another.

http://xp4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=8650598&server=dnserver.db96q1


1996/03/17

        You folks have a rather juvenile idea of what fun is.  Or are you now
pretending I was talking about pursuing the copyright rather than the
libel?  

http://xp4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=10363769&server=dnserver.db96q1


    ... unless this next excerpt is a forgery.  But Mr. Giwer did not deny
sending this email which he quoted from Rack Jite's post: 

1996/03/19

>Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 17:27:08 -0500
>From: Matt Giwer 
>To: root@turnpike.net
>Subject: your complicity in libel

>You are carrying this page.  
>http://emporium.turnpike.net/H/HR/giwer.htm
>If you check my page with contact.html you will find the page you are
>carrying clearly refers to me.  
>I request this false and malicious libel be removed immediately.
>--------

http://xp4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?
recnum=%3c4il7fa$90c@wi.combase.com%3e&server=dnserver.db96q1


    Note that the subject of the message was the libel, no mention of a
copyright violation.  And now he takes credit - no mention of Combase
being responsible: 

1996/03/21

        As I said the libelous and and copyright violating page of David
Dahlman has gone done.  If anyone feels harmed by any of his pages
simply contact the webmaster at his service provider.  And it only
took me four days from discovering the libelous and thieving page
existed.   
        If anyone else has a problem with this hate site simply contact the
webmaster who is very agreeable to eliminate such tortable violations
fo the law. 

http://xp4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=9954589&server=dnserver.db96q1


    I also forgot to mention Mr. Giwer's harrassment or conspiracy to
harrass c2.org: 

1996/03/22

        We are now in the process of seeing if c2.org will continue to host
your libel now that they have been informed.

http://xp4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=10095578&server=dnserver.db96q1

    I note that the page http://www.c2.org/~ccrj/giwer.htm is still on
c2.org.  I guess Mr. Giwer can bluster and threaten and bully, but that's
all he's capable of doing.


    But he changed his tune when I pointed out his censorship.  Too bad
about that email from Mr. Giwer to Volant Turnpike, which he did not deny
sending at the time Rack Jite posted it.

1996/06/09

    Anything that happened to Dahlman's page had only peripherally to do
with me in that I pointed it out to Combase. 

http://xp4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=8905677&server=dnserver.dbapr

    Oh?  But what about that email from Mr. Giwer to Volant Turnpike?

    Now the latest true truth from Mr. Giwer is that it was due to the
copyright.  Come back tomorrow to see if Mr. Giwer can come up with
another story which doesn't match any of the previous ones.

    You would think a 163 IQ type could keep his lies straight.

    Note that I take no position on whether the page is libelous or
copyright violating or not.  It is certainly uncomplimentary and abusive
to Mr. Giwer.  I merely point out the following facts: 

    - Mr. Giwer has told contradictory stories about who complained
      and why.

    - We have seen no judicial determination of libel, nor of copyright
      violation, criminal or otherwise.  Therefore Rack Jite is currently
      legally innocent.  Rather than pursuing remedies through proper
      legal channels, Mr. Giwer has, by his own definition, harrassed
      and engaged in conspiracy to harrass Rack Jite's service providers
      in order to suppress the page in question as a shortcut.  If he
      is not able to convince a court that his complaint has legal merit,
      then he was indeed engaging in the same kind of harrassment and
      censorship campaign that he alleges was used against him.

Not a personal attack, just stating documented fact.  Do please check out
the URLs cited above; wouldn't want Mr. Giwer to claim I am taking things
out of context to fool people.  Not that he has any scruples about doing that
when it suits his purposes.  He's edited posts of mine so that he can reply
to a very distorted version of what I said rather than trying to address
the whole argument, which he was clearly incapable of rebutting.

    Mr. Giwer has said he's here to engage in debunking.  (True to form,
he's given a couple of other explanations as well.)  But what kind of 
debunking is it that has to lie and distort?


>	As to the libel, Alec Grynspan has "testified" to that and Davey-girl
>has been too busy selling machine tools to participated lately.  

    Hard to see how Alec can know whether there was any libel against
Combase.  But again, the point here is simply that Mr. Giwer has told
contradictory stories about what happened, and that Mr. Giwer has
attempted to suppress speech without securing a judicial determination
that the speech is indeed in violation of the law.

    Why does he keep lying like this?  Even an idiot should know by now
that my memory is good enough to enable me to pull proof of his lies from
DejaNews with a minimum of effort.  But maybe the reason is contained in a
quote from one of Mr. Giwer's own recent posts: 

    "When one is riding the tiger, one knows that it is impossible to get
off."

    I'm sorry to have to point out that the tiger of his own lies will
devour him no matter how hard he tries to stay on its back.

    Posted and emailed to Ehrlich606, who recently expressed the thought
that Mr.  Giwer is deserving of respect.  Also the thought that the
"Friends of Nizkor" (whoever they are) would stop at nothing to destroy
those with whom they disagree.  As I said before, Mr. Giwer is destroying
himself with his own lies and stupidity.  What have I done here but
document Mr. Giwer's own record?  All he has to do to stop the destruction
is to stop his self-destructive behavior.  It is that simple. 
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


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