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Newsgroups: soc.culture.romanian,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.romanian,soc.culture.israel
Subject: The Death Toll of Communism according to Professor Rummel.
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 21:36:35 GMT
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In article <01bde8be$811f8a00$21c04e0c@user>,
  "CELTIC  FROST"  wrote:
>
>
> The Foreigner  wrote in article
>  <360ae948.0@oasis.idirect.com>...
> |
> | Because he didn't take them out of context.
>
> Oh come on Wally, cut the crap already..............
>
> | || Rroma and Jews were killed for the same reasons,
> | |
> | |Bullshit.........
> |
> | Bullshit.
> |
>
> Bullshit, huh?  I hope one of our Jewish friends from scr will be able to get
through to you,
> (if you don't call him a "KIKE", that is)....................
>
> | |What the fuck do you know about "honesty" ???  If you had a shred of
> | |"honesty", you  would have jumped all over Wally and his KIKE
> | |commentary..................
> |
> | He understood the context, you deliberately didn't because you say one thing
> | and believe other things, you lie, bullshit and deceive. Of course you do.
>
> You're still at it ???  Christ, but you're hopeless....................
> (Keep calling me names Waldo, that's just how mature adults settle
issues).......................
>
> | Oh BTW, you don't think there was a concentration camp devoted exclusively
> | to the destruction of the Roma. You are an ignoramus. One of them was called
> | LETY.
>
> When the hell did I say that there was no concentration camp for gypsies you
"ignoramus".
> I stated that there wasn't one for THE HANDICAPPED.  Read before you
accuse...............
>
> God forbid you put away your insecurities on the side (along with your
childish name
> calling), and engage in a decent UNBIASED discussion for once.  The ball's in
your
> court, Waldo.  No "herrings", (as long as you behave).  Fair enough
???................
>
> CELTIC  FROST
>
> P.S.  Look man, I don't exactly know how many thousands of gypsies lost their
lives
> because of the Nazi Ideology.

Perhaps 200,000 to 500,000 say some sources (e.g. Puxon and Kendrick, The
Encyclopedia of the Holocaust).


 I do know that over 50 Million people were dead
as a result
> of Second World War.

Somewhat exaggerated.

  Because of the Communist Ideology, over 200 Million are
dead.

Also exaggerated. Professor R.J. Rummel has the numbers for the victims of
Communism in H-Russia. See them below.


> I've said it before and I'll say it again.  Gypsies ARE NOT the only people
who have suffered
> on this miserable planet..............................
>
>




                                        DEMOCIDE RUMMEL



Date: Tue, 11 Oct 1994 10:06:31 -0600
From: Rudolph Rummel 
To: Multiple recipients of list 
Subject: genocide and mass murder

Everyone is aware of how costly in lives and material a war can be, and for
good reason many scholars, researchers, intellectuals, and interested
citizens therefore focus on how war might be prevented. Few, however, are
aware of even a more deadly scourge, that is genocide and mass murder. The
recent events in Rwanda have for a moment riveted attention on a genocide
that within a few months has cost at least 500,000 lives. But if history is
any guide, memory of this genocide will soon disappear and attention will
refocus on the horrors of war. Yet in this century, genocide and mass murder
has killed about 170,000,000 people, or over four times all those killed from
battle in all this century's international and domestic wars. Communism, that
is communist nations, have been responsible for most of this killing. Itself,
this one ideology, has murdered about three times those battle killed in war.

I wrote the following on the death toll from communism and am distributing it
on the internet. It is clear that an enemy far worse than war itself is
totalitarianism (which includes Nazi Germany). And, as I point out, the
solution is the universalization of civil and political rights, that is,
liberal democracy.



8 October, 1994

How Many Have Communists Murdered?

R. J. Rummel
Professor of Political Science
University of Hawaii

Based on R.J.Rummel, Death By Government (New Brunswick, NJ: Transaction
Publishers, 1994)

With the passing of communism into history as an ideological alternative to
democracy it is time to do some accounting of its human
costs.

Few would deny any longer that communism--Marxism-Leninism and its
variants--meant in practice bloody terrorism, deadly
purges, lethal gulags and forced labor, fatal deportations, man-made famines,
extrajudicial executions and show trials, and genocide.
It is also widely known that as a result millions of innocent people have been
murdered in cold blood. Yet there has been virtually no
concentrated statistical work on what this total might be.

For about eight years I have been sifting through thousands of sources trying
to determine the extent of democide (genocide and mass murder) in this
century. As a result of that effort I am able to give some conservative
figures on what is an unrivaled communist hecatomb, and to compare this to
overall world totals.

First, however, I should clarify the term democide. It means for governments
what murder means for an individual under municipal law. It is the
premeditated killing of a person in cold blood, or causing the death of a
person through reckless and wanton disregard for their life. Thus, a
government incarcerating people in a prison under such deadly conditions that
they die in a few years is murder by the state--democide--as would parents
letting a child die from malnutrition and exposure be murder. So would
government forced labor that kills a person within months or a couple of
years be murder. So would government created famines that then are ignored or
knowingly aggravated by government action be murder of those who starve to
death. And obviously, extrajudicial executions, death by torture, government
massacres, and all genocidal killing be murder. However, judicial executions
for crimes the internationally would be considered capital offenses, such as
for murder or treason (as long as it is clear that these are not fabricated
for the purpose of executing the accused, as in communist show trials), is
not democide. Nor is democide the killing of enemy soldiers in combat or of
armed rebels, nor of noncombatants as a result of military action against
military targets.

With this understanding of democide, the following lists all communist
governments that have committed any form of democide and gives their
estimated total domestic and foreign democide and its annual rate (the
percent of a government's domestic population murdered per year). It also
shows the total for communist guerrillas (including quasi-governments, as of
the Mao soviets in China prior to the communist victory in 1949) and the
world total for all governments and guerrillas (including such
quasi-governments as of the White Armies during the Russian civil war in
1917-1922).

Each line in the list gives, in order, the communist regime or group, years
in existence up through 1987, amount of democide in thousands, and the annual
rate of democide in percent. The world total democide of all regimes and
groups, whether communist or not.

Afghanistan     1978-87 228             .157
Albania         1944-87 100             .118
Angola          1975-87 125             .302
Bulgaria        1944-87 222             .062
Cambodia        1975-79 2,035          8.161
Cambodia        1979-87 230             .398
China           1949-87 35,236  .120
Cuba            1959-87 73              .028
Czech.          1948-68 65              .024
Ethiopia        1974-87 725             .162
Germany,E.      1948-87 70              .011
Grenada         1983                    .106           NA
Hungary         1948-87 27              .007
Korea, North    1948-87 1,663           .250
Laos (PDR)      1975-87 56              .124
Mongolia        1926-87 100             .187
Mozambique      1975-87 198             .123
Nicaragua       1979-87 5               .020
Poland          1948-87 22              .002
Rumania         1948-87 435             .055
USSR            1917-87 61,911          .422
Vietnam 1945-87 1,670                   .105
Yemen, S.       1967-87 1               .002
Yugoslavia      1944-87 1,072           .118

SUBTOTAL        1900-87 106,267         .477
GUERRILLAS      1900-87 4,019             NA
TOTAL   1900-87 110,286                 .477
WORLD TOTAL     1900-87 169,199         .235

Of course, even though systematically determined and calculated, all these
figures and their graph are only rough approximations. Even were we to have
total access to all communist archives we still would not be able to
calculate precisely how many the communists murdered. Consider that even in
spite of the archival statistics and detailed reports of survivors, the best
experts still disagree by over 40 percent on the total number of Jews killed
by the Nazis. We cannot expect near this accuracy for the victims of
communism. We can, however, get a probable order of magnitude and a relative
approximation of these deaths within a most likely range. And that is what
the figures in list are meant to be. Their apparent precision is only due to
the total for most communist governments being the summation of dozens of
subtotals (as of forced labor deaths each year) and calculations (as in
extrapolating scholarly estimates of executions or massacres).

With this understood, the Soviet Union appears the greatest megamurderer of
all, apparently killing near 61,000,000 people. Stalin himself is responsible
for almost 43,000,000 of these. Most of the deaths, perhaps around 39,000,000
are due to lethal forced labor in gulag and transit thereto. Communist China
up to 1987, but mainly from 1949 through the cultural revolution, which alone
may have seen over 1,000,000 murdered, is the second worst megamurderer. Then
there are the lesser megamurderers, such as North Korea and Tito's
Yugoslavia.

Obviously the population that is available to kill will make a big difference
in the total democide, and thus the annual percentage rate of democide is
revealing. By far, the most deadly of all communist countries and, indeed, in
this century by far, has been Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge. Pol Pot and his
crew likely killed some 2,000,000 Cambodians from April 1975 through December
1978 out of a population of around 7,000,000. This is an annual rate of over
8 percent of the population murdered, or odds of an average Cambodian
surviving Pol Pot's rule of slightly over just over 2 to 1.

In sum the communist probably have murdered something like 110,000,000, or
near two-thirds of all those killed by all governments, quasi-governments,
and guerrillas from 1900 to 1987. Of course, the world total itself it
shocking. It is several times the 38,000,000 battle-dead that have been
killed in all this century's international and domestic wars. Yet the
probable number of murders by the Soviet Union alone--one communist country--
well surpasses this cost of war. And those murders of communist China almost
equal it.

I should note that communist forced labor was particularly deadly, killing
about 53,000,000 people. It not only accounts for half the deaths under
communism, but is close to the world total of almost 59,000,000, which also
includes colonial forced labor deaths (as in German, Portuguese, and Spanish
colonies). Communists also committed genocide, to be sure, killing almost
12,000,000 people because of their race, religion, or ethnicity, is about a
quarter of the world total . Communists are much less disposed to massacre
then were many other noncommunist governments (such as the Japanese military
during World War II, or the Nationalist Chinese government from 1928 to
1949). Communists were much more discriminating in their killing overall,
even to the extent that in the Soviet Union, communist China, and Vietnam, at
least, they used a quota system. Top officials would order local officials to
kill a certain number of "enemies of the people," "rightists", or "tyrants".

How can we understand all this killing by communists? It is the marriage of an
absolutist ideology with absolute power. Communists
believed that they knew the truth, absolutely. The believed that they knew
through Marxism what would bring about the greatest
human welfare and happiness. And they believed that power, the dictatorship of
the proletariat, must be used to tear down the old
feudal or capitalist order and rebuild society and culture to realize this
utopia. Nothing must stand in the way of its achievement.
Government--the Communist Party--was thus above any law. All institutions,
cultural norms, traditions, and sentiments were
expendable. And the people were as though lumber and bricks, to be used in
building the new world.

Constructing this utopia was seen as though a war on poverty, exploitation,
imperialism, and inequality. And for the greater good, as in a real war,
people are killed. And thus this war for the communist utopia had its
necessary enemy casualties, the clergy, bourgeoisie, capitalists, wreckers,
counterrevolutionaries, rightists, tyrants, rich, landlords, and
noncombatants that unfortunately got caught in the battle. In a war millions
may die, but the cause may be well justified, as in the defeat of Hitler and
an utterly racist Nazism. And to many communists, the cause of a communist
utopia was such as to justify all the deaths. The irony of this is that
communism in practice, even after decades of total control, did not improve
the lot of the average person, but usually made their living conditions worse
than before the revolution. It is not by chance that the greatest famines
have occurred within the Soviet Union (about 5,000,000 dead during 1921-23
and 7,000,000 during 1932-3) and communist China (about 27,000,000 dead from
1959-61). In total almost 55,000,000 people died in various communist famines
and associated diseases, a little over 10,000,000 of them from democidal
famine. This is as though the total population of Turkey, Iran, or Thailand
had been completely wiped out. And that something like 35,000,000 people fled
communist countries as refugees, as though the countries of Argentina or
Columbia had been totally emptied of all their people, was an unparalleled
vote against the utopian pretensions of Marxism-Leninism.

But communists could not be wrong. After all, their knowledge was scientific,
based on historical materialism, an understanding of the dialectical process
in nature and human society, and a materialist (and thus realistic) view of
nature. Marx has shown empirically where society has been and why, and he and
his interpreters proved that it was destined for a communist end. No one
could prevent this, but only stand in the way and delay it at the cost of
more human miser y. Those who disagreed with this world view and even with
some of the proper interpretations of Marx and Lenin were, without a
scintilla of doubt, wrong. After all, did not Marx or Lenin or Stalin or Mao
say that. . . . In other words, communism was like a fanatical religion. It
had its revealed text and chief interpreters. It had its priests and their
ritualistic prose with all the answers. It had a heaven, and the proper
behavior to reach it. It had its appeal to faith. And it had its crusade
against nonbelievers.

What made this secular religion so utterly lethal was its seizure of all the
state's instruments of force and coercion and their immediate use to destroy
or control all independent sources of power, such as the church, the
professions, private businesses, schools, and, of course, the family. The
result is what we see in the above list.

But communism does not stand alone in such mass murder. We do have the
example of Nazi Germany, which may have itself murdered some 20,000,000 Jews,
Poles, Ukrainians, Russians, Yugoslavs, Frenchmen, and other nationalities.
Then there is the Nationalist government of China under Chiang Kai-shek,
which murdered near 10,000,000 Chinese from 1928 to 1949, and the Japanese
militarists who murdered almost 6,000,000 Chinese, Indonesians, Indochinese,
Koreans, Filipinos, and others during World War II. And then we have the
1,000,000 or more Bengalis and Hindus killed in East Pakistan (now
Bangladesh) in 1971 by the Pakistan military. Nor should we forget the mass
expulsion of ethnic Germans and German citizens from Eastern Europe at the
end of World War II, particularly by the Polish government as it seized the
German Eastern Territories, killing perhaps over 1,000,000 of them. Nor
should we ignore the 1,000,000 plus deaths in Mexico from 1900 to 1920, many
of these poor Indians and peasants being killed by forced labor on barbaric
haciendas. And one could go on and on to detail various kinds of noncommunist
democide.

But what connects them all is this. As a government's power is more
unrestrained, as its power reaches into all the corners of culture and
society, and as it is less democratic, then the more likely it is to kill its
own citizens. There is more than a correlation here. As totalitarian power
increases, democide multiplies until it curves sharply upward when
totalitarianism is near absolute. As a governing elite has the power to do
whatever it wants, whether to satisfy its most personal desires, to pursue
what it believes is right and true, it may do so whatever the cost in lives.
In this case power is the necessary condition for mass murder. Once an elite
have it, other causes and conditions can operated to bring about the
immediate genocide, terrorism, massacres, or whatever killing an elite feels
is warranted.

Finally, at the extreme of totalitarian power we have the greatest extreme of
democide. Communist governments have almost without exception wielded the
most absolute power and their greatest killing (such as during Stalin's reign
or the height of Mao's power) has taken place when they have been in their
own history most totalitarian. As most communist governments underwent
increasing liberalization and a loosening of centralized power in the 1960s
through the 1980s, the pace of killing dropped off sharply.

Communism has been the greatest social engineering experiment we have ever
seen. It failed utterly and in doing so it killed over 100,000,000 men,
women, and children in cold blood, not to mention the near 30,000,000 of its
subjects that died in its often aggressive wars and the rebellions it
provoked. But there is a larger lesson to be learned from this horrendous
sacrifice to one ideology. That is that no one can be trusted with power. The
more power the center has to impose the beliefs of an ideological or
religious elite or impose the whims of a dictator, the more likely human
lives are to be sacrificed. This is but one reason, but perhaps the most
important one, for fostering liberal democracy.



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He who forgets the lessons of history should know that there are people who
will remind him of that, even if he does not like it.


Regards,
--
George Popovici

Silence is an answer, but not the answer.
(George Popovici, ancestor of the poster)

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