The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/r/roberts.jeff/1995/roberts.0895


From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Aug  4 10:11:20 PDT 1995
Article: 24933 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news.gmi.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.bluesky.net!news.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MORE ON GERSTEIN
Date: Wed, 02 Aug 1995 11:51:33 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <577232140wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <339552748wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> <1995Jul29.192834.26281@hobbes.kzoo.edu>
Reply-To: jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
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In article: <1995Jul29.192834.26281@hobbes.kzoo.edu>  
k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie R. McCarthy) writes:
> 
> Jeff Roberts (jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk) writes:
> 
> > "Kurt Gerstein ... vanished from history."
> > Well thats lucky. Prevents awkward questions.
> > [like his on estimate of 40 million gassed]
> 
> Forty million?  That's strange.  In email to me on June 29th, you wrote:
> 
> > Gerstein was wrong about Hitler being at Lublin, about the number
> > of people in the gas chambers, and, apparently, about 25 million
> > people being killed.
> 
> Which is it, Mr. Roberts?  Forty or twenty-five?
> 
> Let me see if I understand your point.  Your point is that Gerstein's
> inability to get his numbers straight means that we should ignore
> everything he says, because he is obviously untrustworthy.  Right?

Gerstein[?] made the 40 million estimate to French interogator Raymond 
Cartier, the 25 million was in one of his statements.

Well, the statements attributed to Gerstein are er "unusual". 

> 
> What conclusion should we draw from _your_ inability to get your numbers
> straight, Mr. Roberts?
> 

That you've got no imagination. Did the idea that I was talking about 
another estimate ever enter your head?


Check out:-


The "confessions" of Kurt Gerstein by Henri Roques

available from:-
The Institute of Historical Review PO Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 USA.





Jeff
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If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is neccessary that at least 
once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things.

Rene Descartes (1596-1650)                                  


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From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Sun Aug  6 15:41:15 PDT 1995
Article: 25083 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Suchomel Remembers Treblinka
Date: Thu, 03 Aug 1995 18:05:23 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <485702294wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <9507230341.AA20857@lems24.lems.brown.edu>
Reply-To: jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
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In article: <9507230341.AA20857@lems24.lems.brown.edu>  dk@lems.brown.edu 
(Daniel Keren) writes:
> 
> This is a short excerpt from the eyewitness account of Franz
> Suchomel, a member of the SS who served in the death camp Treblinka.
> It is taken from the movie "Shoa". This is a translation;
> if anyone who saw the movie detects an error, please inform me.
> "L" stands for Lantzman, "S" for Suchomel.
> 
> -Danny Keren.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> S: More and more people were coming and we didn't have the means
>    to kill them. In the "high places" they wanted to evacuate
>    the Warsaw Ghetto quickly. The gas chambers couldn't handle
>    the pressure, those little gas chambers. The Jews had to wait
>    for their turn, a day, two days, sometimes three days. They
>    saw what was awaiting them. They knew - maybe they were not
>    absolutely sure, but they knew. There were Jewish women who
>    slit the veins of their daughters during the night, and then 
>    slit their own veins. Some Jews poisoned themselves. They heard 
>    the engine which fed the gas chambers. A tank engine was in use 
>    in those gas chambers. In Treblinka, the only gas in use was the 
>    exhaust gas of an engine. Zyklon-B was used in Auschwitz.
> 
>    Eberle, the commandant of the camp, called Lublin and said
>    'It is impossible to continue this way, I cannot continue
>    like this, it has to be stopped'. One night Wirth came, checked
>    everything, and immediately went back. He returned with some
>    people from Wolzec, these were practical experts. Wirth 

Wolzec. A non-existant place. The same place as mentioned by 
[supposely] Commandant Hoess of Auschwitz in his "confession", was a death 
camp. But Wolzec doesn't exist.
Hoess, one would expect would know of Poland, but the interrogators knew 
nothing of Poland. But 2 people mentioning the same non-existant place, an 
amazing concidence..... 
Unless of course, the interrogators, wrote the 'confessions.' 


-- 

Jeff
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            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Sun Aug  6 15:41:18 PDT 1995
Article: 25084 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Construction at Birkenau
Date: Thu, 03 Aug 1995 18:52:54 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <632503187wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <9507230334.AA20844@lems24.lems.brown.edu>
Reply-To: jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
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In article: <9507230334.AA20844@lems24.lems.brown.edu>  dk@lems.brown.edu 
(Daniel Keren) writes:
> 
> Letter from SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Bischoff, of the Auschwitz construction
> department, to SS General Kammler, January 29, 1943
> [The Final Solution: The Attempt to Exterminate the Jews of Europe,
> 1939-1945 - G. Reitlinger, South Brunswick, T. Yosellof, 1968, p. 158-159]
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> Crematorium No. 2. The completed furnaces have been started up in
> the presence of Engineer Prufer from Messers. Topf (of Erfurt). The
> planks cannot yet be moved from the ceiling of the mortuary cellar
> on account of frost, but this is not important, as the gassing
> cellar can be used for that purpose. The ventilation plant has
> been held up by restrictions on rail transport, but the installation
> should be ready by February 20th.
> 

Quote from Reitlinger [the Final Solution (1968 ) page 159]

"In fact Crematorium No 2 was not ready till March 13th. [1943] On June 13th 
it was still the only crematorium of the four which was actually working, 
and the carpentry work was incomplete." 

In June 1943 only 1 of the 4 planned crematoria was working, and the morgue 
[codeword for gas chamber] was covered with planks. 

Remember the Final solution [codewords for "extermination"] had been ordered 
according to the "confession" of Hoess sometime in 1941. 
Two years, the crematoria, and their morgues [codeword for gas chamber] and 
the bath houses [codeword for gas chamber] haven't been completed.  

Still that's Germans for you. Not very efficent. Wouldn't it have made sense 
to build the morgues [codeword for gas chambers] and the Crematoria and the 
Bath houses [codewords for gas chamber] before they started the final 
solution [codewords for extermination]? 

Or could the Germans be building these installations because of the typhus 
epidemic at Auschwitz in March 1942, and another which closed Auschwitz for 
2 months in August 1942?

[The Final Solution [1968] Reitlinger, page 122]




Jeff
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            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Sun Aug  6 15:41:20 PDT 1995
Article: 25085 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: JEWS ARRIVE SICK- JEWS TREATED- JEWS GASSED
Date: Thu, 03 Aug 1995 22:55:29 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 66
Message-ID: <508520490wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <621833145wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> 
Reply-To: jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
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In article:   dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) 
writes:
> 
> Jeff   wrote:
> 
> # The Germans deport Jews. 
> #
> # They arrive sick. 
> #
> # They are given light dutes, sent to the Revier and the Hospital. 
> #
> # Later, they are gassed.
> #
> # Still, its just another case of Nazi irrationality.
> 
> Yes, the Nazis were irrational.
> 

Of course they were. After all it explains irrational situations like this 
one, doesn't it?
For Keren it does....
But some of you will say "why"......


> The path many of the deportees went through (those not gassed
> upon arrival) was to be used as slaves for some period of time
> and then be gassed, whenever their health deteriorated or when
> new transports came in and there was no longer any need for
> them or any room to keep them in.
> This was elaborated on, for instance, by Dr. Lingens-Reiner, a
> German "political" (non-Jewish) prisoner in Birkenau.
> However, Roberts is not interested in reading what former
> Auschwitz inmates have to say, so he can learn more about
> what happened there and about why the "contradictions" he
> points out are not contradictions at all. 

"Roberts is not interested" says Keren, and he knows of course.

> He's more interested in quoting various nut-cases who were not in  
> Auschwitz during the war, but who nonetheless "know" exactly what
> went on there.
> 
> That is because Roberts, like other "revisionists",
> is an intellectual zero who is not, under any circumstances,
> interested in the truth.

A "Intellectual zero". 

More abuse. 

"who is not, under any circumstances interested in the truth".




-- 

Jeff
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            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Sun Aug  6 15:41:23 PDT 1995
Article: 25086 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: FOUR QUESTIONS FOR BARRY SHEIN
Date: Thu, 03 Aug 1995 22:32:23 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 87
Message-ID: <149767846wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <176148820wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> 
Reply-To: jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
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In article:   dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) 
writes:
# Question 1. How did the materials drop to the bottom of a 
# solid concrete pillar? 
> 
> They didn't.

Pressac dixit. [I'ill get this book from the library]
How many concrete pillars were there?  

> 
> # Question 2: Which Crematoria at Auschwitz has 10 retorts? 
> 
> As Pressac suggests, he may be talking about the ten units
> consisting of 3 retorts each (5 in Krema II and 5 in Krema III).

None of them. Pressac "suggests" "may be".

[Same criteria as Pressac; I 'suggest' this 'may be' a forgery.]

The only crematoria working at this date was Krema No 2. Krema No 2 has 5 
furnaces with 3 retorts 15 in all.   

[cf Reitlinger [the Final Solution (1968 ) page 159]

Current capacity 10,000 according to this report.
The SS estimated the total cremation capacity at 4,756 in 24 working hours 
 (letter from SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Jahrling to SS-General Kammler, June 25 
1943, see "Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas chambers" - J.C 
Pressac) 

Question 3. What happened between those dates to reduce capacity by over 
5,000? 

You failed to answer this question, Mr Karen.

Question 4.

Current capacity of the resettlement action 10,000 in 24 hours. 

Please explain how the current capacity of Crematorium No 2 which is rated 
as 1440 and that at Auschwitz I of 340 in 24 hours in June)  ie 1780 can 
equal a current capacity of 10,000 in 24 hours in May? 

> Yes, this is an exaggeration.

So the report is wrong on the 10 crematoria, its figures are no where near 
another report a month later, 5 times wrong on the current capacity, and the 
number of steps is wrong as well, and where was this report found? 

At his house?

[I recall that Fleming actually says that. I'ill check]

That's SO lucky. 
 
And this document is entitled " Resettlement of Jews" which is "code" for 
gassing, just like "specially handled" "in readiness for transport" 
"seperately quartered" "removal" are also "codes" for gassing.

Who devised all these 'codewords'? 
The exterminationists, interpret all these phrases and others to mean 
gassing, and suggest the nazis used them as "code" for gassing.  
So why does Himmler need to have it explained in his report?

It is just amazing how lucky it is that this report explains "resettlement". 
Is there a reply from Himmler? I very much doubt it. 
Is there any cross-references to it, from any other offices?
I would very much like to see this report. I expect this document is not 
even given a high security rating, a clear indication of a forgery. 




The Leuchter Report is available from:- 
The Institute of Historical Review PO Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 USA

-- 

Jeff
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            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Sun Aug  6 15:41:25 PDT 1995
Article: 25087 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: WHY DID KRAMER REMAIN BEHIND?
Date: Thu, 03 Aug 1995 22:44:37 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <895694410wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <266963107wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> <3vgs79$1gka@rover.ucs.ualberta.ca>
Reply-To: jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
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In article: <3vgs79$1gka@rover.ucs.ualberta.ca>  jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca 
(John Morris) writes:
> 
> I assume from Jeff Roberts' silence that we have answered the question
> to his satisfaction and that we will hear no more about it.

I only posted this friday, and on Sunday you say I am silent. 


Kramer, according to you, was deliberately starving the detainees, and was 
responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Jewish detainees by 
using a fumigant to kill them in the morgues [code for gas chambers] at 
Birkenau.    
So what does Kramer do? He arranges a truce with the allies because a typhus 
epidemic has broken out and remains behind in accordence with the terms of 
the truce. 

Didn't he expect a few problems with the crimes he committed?

So why did Kramer remain behind?


-- 

Jeff
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            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Sun Aug  6 15:41:28 PDT 1995
Article: 25088 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Two questions for Jeff Roberts
Date: Thu, 03 Aug 1995 23:34:02 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <698054337wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <176148820wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> <3vbn3l$8fj@access5.digex.net>
Reply-To: jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
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In article: <3vbn3l$8fj@access5.digex.net>  mstein@access5.digex.net 
(Michael P. Stein) writes:
> 
> In article <176148820wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>,
> Jeff   wrote:
> >The Leucher Report is available from:- 
> 
>     Once again, Mr. Roberts, is this the same Leuchter Report written by 
> a proven perjuror, the same Leuchter Report even revisionists such as 
> David Cole find an embarrassment?

Proven perjuror, eh?
When was Leuchter found guilty of perjury? 
Lets see your references for this?  

>     It must be some other Leuchter report.  Surely a real truth-seeker
> such as Mr. Roberts wouldn't use the Leuchter Report I'm familiar with.

Cheap shot, Mr Stein, after all I haven't insulted you. [yet] 

>     The second question: did Lenski reproduce the part of the Zundel trial
> where Leuchter's credentials to be an expert witness were discussed?  
> It's rather amusing.

No, I can't find anything in Lenski, about expert status for Leuchter, 
although Mark Weber, [page 179], Ivan Lagace, [page 250], (who Mr Karen says 
is lying, or ignorant), Professor Robert Faurisson, [page 280], and David 
Irving, [page 400] were apparently granted expert status. 

[There may have been others, as this was a quick scan.]
 

Afaik, Leutcher was denied expert status, because despite the fact, he had 
designed execution gas chambers, [which were not disguised as morgues 
admittedly] they hadn't been utilised. 

Anyway, does it really matter, he's now one of the undead, a intellectual 
zero.


Check out :-)  

"The Holocaust on Trial,The case of Ernst Zundel" by Robert Lenski.

available from:-
The Institute of Historical Review PO Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 USA.

Jeff
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            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Sun Aug  6 15:41:30 PDT 1995
Article: 25089 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: FINAL SOLUTION POSTPONED UNTIL AFTER WAR
Date: Fri, 04 Aug 1995 02:04:40 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 47
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Reply-To: jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
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Did you find "any orders for the extermination of Jews" in the archives 
of any country? asked Christie [defence counsel for Zundel].

"None whatsoever," said [David] Irving. And the British were reading 
the code signals of the SS.

What about Himmler, Heydrich, Frank, and other top Nazis? asked 
Christie.

"There are no explicit orders," said Irving, "and this is where the 
academic historians start asking us to read between the lines and find 
fancy translations for certain words and I wouldn't go along with those 
methods. I want in a crime as big as this to find explicit evidence.

What one does find, said Irving, is documents pointing in the other 
direction. For example, in the spring of 1942, Hans Lammers, who was 
something like the German Prime Minister telephoned the Secretary of 
State of the German Ministry of Justice, who made a note of their 
conversation. Lammers said that Hitler had repeatedly said that he 
wanted the solution of the Jewish problem postponed until after the
war. This document, said Irving, "was concealed at Nuremberg", and 
resurfaced only recently. It "takes some explaining, and this is the 
kind of document which embarrasses the [academic] historians."  
   


The testimony of DAVID IRVING, a EXPERT witness at the Zundel trial.

[Page 406 From the The Holocaust on Trial, The case of Ernst Zundel 
by Robert Lenski.]

The Holocaust on Trial is available from:-

The Institute of Historical Review PO Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 
92659 USA.

-- 

Jeff
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            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Sun Aug  6 15:41:32 PDT 1995
Article: 25090 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: EXPERT? HE'S LYING OR IGNORANT; IDIOT AWARD to MR KEREN
Date: Thu, 03 Aug 1995 23:59:14 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 63
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The following extract is just part of the testimony at the Zundel trial of 
Ivan Lagace, a funeral director and crematorium manager and operator from 
Calgary, Alberta. Lagace has disposed of more than 10,000 bodies since 1976, 
and cremated more than 1000 since 1984. He has handled victims of fire, 
accident, and disease, and has seen every stage of bodily composition.

He was accorded EXPERT status at the Zundel trial.

Lagace next explained some calculations he had made after studying the plans 
for the 46 retorts at Birkenau.(Auschwitz II)
Christie [defence counsel for Zundel] asked him how these compared to the 
plans for his own crematorium.
Well, said Lagace, When I first looked at these [Birkenau plans], I was 
amazed." The specifications were almost identical to his own retort, 
including the unusually high 45-foot stack. Based on the afterburner design, 
he added, it is obvious they were concerned with environmental effects. 
There would be no smoke and no odor."
Lagace estimated that the 46 retorts at Birkenau could handle about 184 
bodies daily, or four apiece.
But, asked Christie, what about Raul Hilberg's estimate of 4,400 cremations 
per day at Birkenau?
Well," said Lagace, that's preposterous, in my eyes. It's beyond the realm 
of reality."
Christie asked if operating 24 hours a day would raise the output.
Just the opposite, insisted Lagace, it would shorten the lifespan of the 
refractory" and create costly delays.
Christie read to Lagace from Hilberg's account of a period in 1944 when 
about 10,000 Jews a day were allegedly being gassed at Birkenau, and asked 
again if the 46 retorts could have cremated 4,400 of the victims daily.
Lagace: It would be ludicrous to say something like that.

dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
"Well, this "EXPERT" is either lying or he has no idea what
he's talking about......"

Well, Keren knows better. Keren is a expert. For example, Keren 
certainly knows about abuse. He's a expert on it. Especially 
self-abuse. 


See what another "intellectual zero" like Ivan Lagace has to say:-

Check out:- 

The Holocaust on Trial ,The case of Ernst Zundel by Robert Lenski.

The Institute of Historical Review PO Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 
92659 USA.




Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Sun Aug  6 15:41:35 PDT 1995
Article: 25091 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: WATER POLO AT AUSCHWITZ
Date: Fri, 04 Aug 1995 02:35:27 GMT
Organization: None
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In article: <3vgj9h$505@access2.digex.net>  mstein@access2.digex.net 
(Michael P. Stein) writes:
> 
> In article <252648908wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>,
> Jeff   wrote:
> >also the 
> >area around those crematoria did not show what was allegedly to be seen, 
and 
> >since that time [1979] there are more and more claims that the Holocaust 
had 
> >taken place underground, and it could not have been seen from above 
ground.
> 
>     *sigh*  An amazing piece of confusion.  The _gas_ chambers of Kremas 
> II and III were underground.  _They_ could not have been seen from above 
> ground.  I've never seen anyone claim it was impossible to see burning 
> activity above ground.  Do you have a source for _that_ claim?

No confusion really. I took this this sentence to mean that there was no pit 
burning, and the alleged gassing took place in the morgues [codeword for gas 
chambers] which were as you say were underground. (in Krema II & III). 
 
> 
> >Question 2) Did the Germans spot the US photo-recce planes coming in and 
> >quickly hide all traces of the pits where 20,000 corpses were being > 
burnt?
 
>     Just in case you missed Brian Harmon's post, he says (I haven't seen
> it myself) there's some sort of pit near Krema II shown in one of them. 
> So I guess they weren't quick enough about hiding _all_ traces.

Well, what's in the 'sort of pit' pit? Is it as Hilberg alleges?

"Eight pits were dug, each about four by sixty yards in size. On the bottom 
of the pits the human fat was collected and poured back into the the fire 
with buckets to hasten the cremations. Survivors reports that children were 
sometimes tossed alive into the inferno. The rotten remains were cleaned up 
once in a while with flame throwers. Although the corpses burned slowly 
during rain or misty weather, the pits were found to be the cheapest and 
most efficent method of body disposal. In August 1944, when over 20,000 
corpses had to be burned on some days, the open pits broke the bottleneck."
 [Page 629 The Destruction of the European Jews (1961) by Raul Hilberg]  

NB I recall that these "long" pits were not near Krema II, but to the North 
of the camp.  

>     Or maybe you think they just held big barbecues for the prisoners -
> after all, many revisionists have tried to tell us Auschwitz was a
> perfectly nice place to spend the war - heck, it even had a swimming pool! 
> (To clarify:  it did.  Ah, but did the prisoners get to use it?)
> 

"[Ditlieb] Felderer's testimony gave Holocaust true believers a lot to 
murmur and moan about. Highlights of his slide show of Auschwitz I included 
the camp swimming pool, the theatre, the brothel, the "secret museum", the 
"Black Wall" and the many alterations in the crematorium and alleged gas 
chamber.
* the swimming pool is visible even in some of the allies wartime aerial 
photos. This reflects the survivors' literature which describes water polo 
matches. When Felderer told Piper [official at Auschwitz museum], "Now this 
swimming pool must have been used used by the SS men," Piper replied, No, 
they swam elsewhere, this pool was used for the rehabilitation and 
recreation of patients among the internees."     

[Page 132] From the The Holocaust on Trial ,The case of Ernst Zundel by 
Robert Lenski.

The Holocaust on Trial is available from:-
The Institute of Historical Review PO Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 USA.


Jeff
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            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Sun Aug  6 15:41:38 PDT 1995
Article: 25092 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: CREMATION RATE AT BIRKENAU LUDICROUS says Keren
Date: Fri, 04 Aug 1995 01:37:48 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
> There's BTW a patent, submitted by the very same Topf firm
> in 1951, which gives a cremation time of 30-45 minutes
> per corpse. It is not the same type of furnace as the
> one used in Birkenau, but this figure obviously means
> a lot, assuming the science of cremation has not made
> a quantum leap right after the war. Once more, the
> revisionazis have failed to do their homework."

So let's use Karen's figures to work out the crematory rates for 
Birkenau, after all, he knows better than Ivan Lagace, an "intellectual 
zero" who was granted Expert status on Cremation at the Zundel trial, 

["Lagace estimated that the 46 retorts at Birkenau could handle about 184 
bodies daily, or four apiece." (Holocaust on Trial Page 239)]

Lagace is obviously a Neo-Nazi liar or Neo-Nazi ignoramus or more 
likely - a Neo-Nazi lying ignoramus.


There was 46 retorts at Auschwitz II (Birkenau).

At the best possible rate [on 1951 figures], flat out with no problems, no maintenance, no warming up, no cooling down, no tea breaks, etc 
at 30 minutes per corpse the 46 retorts at Birkenau would have cremated:-

46 * 24 * 2 = 2208 corpses a day.  


A bit short of the SS estimate of 4,756 a day. 
[letter from SS-SturmbannfuehrerJahrling to SS-General Kammler, June 25 1943, see "Auschwitz:Technique and operation of the gas chambers" - J.C Pressac,the Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, NY, 1989, p. 247] 

And a little short of the Polish Commission of Inquiry's estimate of 12,000 a day. [The Final Solution [1968]; Reitlinger page 159]

And even Hoess the commandant of Auschwitz, who seems to have a lot of problems with numbers  -------- 16,000 a day. 
[The Final Solution [1968]; Reitlinger page 159]

And just a little bit short of inmate Olga lengel's estimate of 17,280 a day. ("Five chimmeys" P68 cited in; Destruction of the European Jews 1961 
Hilberg page 629) 

And just a little bit short of Dr Nysizli's estimate of 20,000 a day.
[The Final Solution [1968]; Reitlinger page 159]


At the next possible rate [on 1951 figures], flat out with no problems, no maintenance, no warming up, no cooling down, and no tea breaks, etc 
at 45 minutes per corpse the 46 retorts at Birkenau would have cremated:-

46 * 32 = 1472 corpses per day.  

A bit short of the SS estimate of       ------------------ 4,756 a day. 
And a little short of the Polish Commission's estimate of 12,000 a day. 
Hoess the commandant of Auschwitz,               -------- 16,000 a day. 
Inmate Olga lengel's estimate --------------------------- 17,280 a day.
Dr Nysizli's estimate ----------------------------------- 20,000 a day.

However, these were 1951 figures, for the 1940s, let's make it a hour 
per corpse:-  

46 * 24 = 1104 a day. 

A bit short of the SS estimate of       ------------------ 4,756 a day. 
And a little short of the Polish Commission's estimate of 12,000 a day. 
Hoess the commandant of Auschwitz, he's wrong again------ 16,000 a day. 
Inmate Olga lengel's estimate --------------------------- 17,280 a day.
Dr Nysizli's estimate ----------------------------------- 20,000 a day.


However, let's not be a intellectual zero like Roberts or Baron, and complain that even these figures are unrealistic, let's remember that the Nazis [or the Jewish Sonderkommando who actually operated the retorts, who worked hard and were highly traine
, and were next for gassing] stuck 3 
corpses in at a time, in every retort, right through those 24 hours, despite the fact the retorts were designed for single corpse cremation, and did it flat out with no problems, no maintenance, no warming up, no cooling down, etc. 

Now let us IGNORE the idea that this might take 3 times as long, and say it will take the SAME time as for 1 corpse, as everyone knows it will, otherwise we may be classed as intellectual zeros, and we wouldn't want that would we.  

1) Best possible rate [1951] 46 * 48 = 6624. [10 minutes per corpse]

2) Next best rate [1951]     46 * 32 = 4416. [15 minutes per corpse]

3) 1940's rate               46 * 24 = 3312. [20 minutes per corpse]

At last the forged SS letter estimate is in range.  ------ 4,756 a day. 
But a little short of the Polish Commission's estimate of 12,000 a day. 
Hoess the commandant of Auschwitz, he's wrong again------ 16,000 a day. 
Inmate Olga lengel's estimate --------------------------- 17,280 a day.
Dr Nysizli's estimate ----------------------------------- 20,000 a day.


Now that's better, that SS estimate now FITS.


Back to sleep.
 

PS: Comment, Jamie?

-- 
Jeff
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            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)
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From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Sun Aug  6 15:41:41 PDT 1995
Article: 25093 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: DACHAU TRIALS BLOT ON US JUSTICE THE CASE OF GUSTAV PERAT 3.
Date: Fri, 04 Aug 1995 02:51:52 GMT
Organization: None
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Petrat's post-conviction plea was in the case file, a forlorn voice from the 
grave which I read with pangs of sorrow. His statement had been prepared in 
German had been submitted to the Military Governor of the US Zone of 
Occupation in English translation. Since no more than a handful of Americans 
have seen this or any other  German "war criminal's" side of the story, I 
reproduce it in its entirety, as follows:
 
I, Gustav PETRAT, born 12 November 1924 in Wirballen/Litauen [Lithuania], 
presently in Landsberg/Lech, make the following sworn statement after I have 
been informed that this statement is to be submitted to the Military 
Governor of the US Zone and that an false statement may be severely 
punished.
 
l. In May 1944, on account of my wound, I was transferred to the guard 
personnel of the Mauthausen concentration camp and served there as dog 
leader with the 16th Guard Company. My rank was Corporal (Rottenfuehrer) in 
the Armed (Waffen) SS.
 
[paragraphs 2-8 already posted] 

9. On 15th July 1947 I recieved a general charge sheet and was transferred 
with my co-accused to the Bunker I, camp Dachau.
It was impossible for me to procure any exonerating material there. One was 
cut off from the outside world. 
Letters to relatives or acquaintances in which something was said about 
witnesses or the approaching trial were so cut up that the receiver received 
only scraps from which he could glean nothing. For that reason it was made 
impossible for me to procure any defense material. Requests for special 
letters to witnesses or prior reports to the defense lawyer were fruitless.
Already in little things they were making the procuring of exonerating 
material impossible. Also the time before the beginning of the trial was far 
too short to obtain any material.

10. On 6 August 1947 the trial began, and lasted unti 21 August.

11. The prosecution witnesses had every support of the prosecuting 
authorities. When they were shown to be lying, up jumped the prosecutor, Mr. 
Lindberg, and accused the defense lawyer of intimidating the witnesses and 
trying to make out that they were liars.

12. In reality, the opposite was the truth. Defense witnesses were 
intimidated by the braying of the prosecutor or were branded as false. It 
happened that defense witnesses were threatened and beaten by foreign former 
prisoners so that the former had no more interest in appearing for the 
defense. They were afraid that they too would be accused of something, which 
the foreign prisoners were quite capable of, as they hated everything German 
and were out for revenge.

What happened next? Well, it gets much much worse......

Perats statement is cited on Pages 258 to 263 in Innocent at Dachau by 
Joseph Halow.]

INNOCENT AT DACHAU is available from:-

The Institute of Historical Review PO Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 USA.
 
PS more to follow.


-- 
 
Jeff
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            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Sun Aug  6 15:41:43 PDT 1995
Article: 25094 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Kevin Filan and "Deliberate Starvation"
Date: Fri, 04 Aug 1995 00:07:11 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <353654945wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <3tueo0$8is@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>  <500767296wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> 
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In article:   dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) 
writes:
> 
> No, it's nonsense that 80,000 out of 140,000 would have died
> if there was no deliberate policy of neglect and murder.
> 
> At some stage the SS Economic Division decided that too many
> were dying. They needed their slaves.
> 
> The corpses at Belsen are a fact, Roberts. You may really be
> crazy enough not to realize this, or you may just be
> playing some stupid game here ("hey, mom, look, I can sound
> even more stupid than Les Griswold"), but this doesn't change
> anything.
> 

More abuse. 

You keep saying that there was a deliberate policy, lets have some facts.
Please document this for me, as I've asked again and again.

When did this policy start?
Who was responsible for this policy and gave the orders?
Are there any documents or witnesses? 
Was it a constant policy or did it vary?

There's four points to answer. 

-- 

Jeff
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            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Sun Aug  6 15:41:45 PDT 1995
Article: 25095 of alt.revisionism
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From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: HIMMLER INVESTIGATES GASSING RUMOURS
Date: Fri, 04 Aug 1995 03:15:20 GMT
Organization: None
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Early in September 1942 the London Daily Telegraph published reports 
>from  Warsaw that seven thousand Jews a day were being deported from the 
ghetto and executed -  a total of 700,000 by May 1942. "In many cases gas 
chambers had been used."  
In a Top Secret telegram Goebbel's ministry asked Hans Frank for an 
explanation.  
Via New York, the same report reached Himmler; writing to Gestapo chief 
Muller on November 30, he called it a "very interesting [press]announcement 
about a memorandum written by Dr. [Stephen F.] Wise [President of the 
American Jewish Congress] in September 1942."  and commented: "Given 
the scale of the Jewish migration, I'm not surprised that such rumours 
crop up somewhere in the world.  We both know there's a high death rate 
among the Jews who are put to work.  But you are to guarantee to me that at 
each location the cadavers of these deceased Jews are either burned or
buried, and that nothing else can happen with the cadavers wherever they 
are.  You are to investigate at once in all quarters to find out whether 
there have been any such abuses as the -no doubt mendacious- rumors 
disseminated around the world claim.  All such abuses are to be 
reported to me on the SS oath of honor" 

(Us National Archives No T175/68/4325).  

Page 820 Hitlers War [latest edition] by David Irving.


Think on this. Himmler has heard of a claim that gassing is taking 
place made by Dr Wise, President of the World Jewish Congress.
He gets [Obergruppenfuhrer Heinrich] Muller, head of the State Secret 
Police to investigate. 

Question:

Why should Himmler get Muller "to investigate at once in all quarters to 
find out whether there have been any such abuses as the - no doubt 
mendacious rumours" claim, if he is gassing and murdering Jews by the 
million? 

Jeff
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            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Sun Aug  6 15:41:47 PDT 1995
Article: 25096 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: MACVAY & HOESS STATEMENT "edited"  AT NIZOR & drainage cite
Date: Fri, 04 Aug 1995 03:23:43 GMT
Organization: None
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The Hoess Statement (German & English) [from the Nizor resource]     

Paragraph 6 reads:-
6. Die "Endloesung" der juedischen Frage bedeutete die vollstaendige 
Ausrottung aller Juden in Europa. Ich hatte den Befehl, 
ausrottungserleichterungen in Auschwitz im Juni 1942 zu schaffen. Zu jener 
Zeit bestanden schon drei weitere Vernichtungslager im Generalgouvernement: 
Belzec, Treblinka und Wolzek.
Diese Lager befanden sich unter dem Einsatzkommando der Sicherheitspolizei 
und des SD.......
[this translates to:]


6. The "final solution" of the Jewish question meant the
complete extermination of all Jews in Europe. I had the order to
produce extermination facilities in Auschwitz in June 1942. At
that time three further annihilation camps already existed in
the general government: Belzec, Treblinka and Wolzek. These camps
found themselves under the mission command of the security police and the 
SD.....
 
>From  "Der Kommandant von Auschwitz erzaehlt," in _Das Dritte
Reich und die Juden_, edited by Leon Poliakov and Josef Wulf.
Berlin Grunewald, Verlag-GmbH, 1955.

However, it should read June 1941. 


So was it just a typo, or does the source say 1942 as well?
 
 
Are you going to answer this question or not?
 
 
PS Since I gave you a citation for the Gerstein statement, you can give me 
one for your statement that the "SS drained the site " at Auschwitz II, as I 
cannot find any reference to any draining of the site in Hilberg or 
Reitlinger.
 
 
-- 

Jeff
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            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Sun Aug  6 15:41:50 PDT 1995
Article: 25097 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: EVERYTHING ABOUT IT (AUSCHWITZ I) IS FAKE
Date: Fri, 04 Aug 1995 03:51:18 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 56
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        L'EXPRESS: "Tout y est faux" - Everything about it is Fake 

                 FRENCH MAKE A CLEAN BREAST: 
         ADMIT FORTY SEVEN YEAR AUSCHWITZ "GAS CHAMBER" FRAUD

PARIS-Braving the risk of prosecution under France's draconic new 
Fabius-Gayssot Law, the mass circulation national weekly magazine L'Express 
has admitted that the gas chamber shown to tourists at Auschwitz is a FAKE - 
built by the Polish Communists three years after the War. 

This was the claim which British writer David Irving made in Munich in April 
1990: a remark for which the German government fined him DM30,000 ($22,000) 
and banned him from Germany in 1993. The Court of Human Rights in 
Strasboug has now agreed to hear the appeal his lawyers against Germany.
The largely Jewish-owned French magazine L'Express, which is comparable with 
the US magazine Time and with Germany's Der Spiegel, slated in a 
well-researched article (titled: "Auschswitz: The Memoir ot Evil ) appearing 
under the by-line of anti-revisionist historian Eric Conan that the 
authorities at Auschwitz have now conceded the fraud - but they also admit 
that for them there is now no going back.
The admission represents a major vindication for Professor Robert Faurisson, 
who was the first public figure to point to the fraud, back in 1976. 
Unable to accept the truth, his opponents have subjected him to a reign 
of terror since then. In one incident a gang of thugs, who were immediately 
denounced by the rest of the Jewish community, poured acid into Faurisson's 
eyes, and broke his upper and Iower jaws almost beyond repair.

....Now the Auschwitz gas chamber legend is finally crumbling too. Just as the leading revisionists promised it would.
In his article Eric Conan states that there been many blatant falsifications in the Auschwitz and Birkenau concentration camp sites. In particular he reveals that at the time that the Auschwitz State was created for propaganda purposes in 1948, they "r
constructed" Crematorium I in its supposed original state; In fact "everythingin it is false." [Tout y est faux] -
the dimensions of the "gas chamber", the locations of the doors, the roof openings for pouring in Zyklon B poison, the "ovens" ("rebuilt according to the recollections of some survivors"), and the height of the chimmey.  
[This confirms recent revisionist investigators who claimed that there was no link between the supposed chimmey and the crematorium: it is a dummy.]

Professor [Robert] Faurisson was the first to reveal the deception in 1976, when he cornered museum official Jan Machalek into making an admission that the "gas chamber" was a "reconstruction". Faurisson reported this in the French National newspaper L
 Monde on December 29, 1978 and Holocaust expert Raul Hilberg admitted under oath at the 1985 Zundel trial in Toronto that this was true. 

Faurisson's 1976 investigation of the original plans in the museum archives at Auschwitz revealed that until 1942, the "gas chamber"was nothing more than an almost totally enclosed room for storing cadavers awaiting incineration in the endlessly slow c
eamatorium one floor above. 

....Astonishingly, there are no plans to alter the way that the fake gas chamber is displayed to tourists, who are still to be led to believe they are seeing the right thing.




Extracts from David Irvings Action Report May 1995.


Jeff
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            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Sun Aug  6 15:41:53 PDT 1995
Article: 25098 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: AMERICANS TORTURE GERMANS TO EXTORT "CONFESSIONS"
Date: Fri, 04 Aug 1995 13:22:04 GMT
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         AMERICANS TORTURE GERMANS TO EXTORT "CONFESSIONS".

By Fred Redman

TODAY I am able to tell you the full story, revealed in Washington, of the 
American war trials scandal. It is an ugly story of barbarous tortures 
inflicted in the name of Allied justice. 
It is time the British people knew all the facts. Little has appeared in our 
press until today.
The charge is that American soldiers, building evidence against Germans 
accused of war crimes, have behaved with the same sadistic cruelty as the 
beasts who terrorised Europe when it was under Nazi domination.

The truth has come out through the persistence of an American lawyer and the 
frank horror of an American Judge who refuses to be muzzled.
Judge Edward Van Roden member of a US Army Commission of Inquiry tells how 
burning matches were forced under the fingernails of a prisoner by American 
investigators to extort a confession. For months, he says, men were kept in 
solitary confinement on near-starvation rations. 
And they were beaten up and savagely kicked until strong men were redeuced 
to broken wrecks ready to mumble any admission demanded by their 
prosecutors. 

The war department have shown the Judges personal report only to General 
Lucius Clay, their military commander in Germany. Washington suspects the 
reason was that it was too shocking for public disclosure. 

....Commission sent to Germany to investigate was was even more candid.
"All but two of the Germans in the 139 cases we investigated, had been 
kicked in the testicles beyond repair." he charged.
"this was standard operating procedure with our American investigators.
"They would put a black hood over the accused's head and then punch him in 
the face with brass knuckles."
US Army prosecution teams had he said had posed as priests to hear 
confessions and give absolution.

At mock trials men who refused to confess were confronted by a crucifix
and burning candles. Those sham courts, attended by men in US Army uniform, 
passed sham death sentences. Then the accused were told: "Sign this 
confession and we get you acquitted." 

[The Sunday Pictorial Jan 23rd 1949 as cited on p82 in "Holocaust Denial; 
New Nazi Lie or New Inquisition" by Alexander Baron"]
Email A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk for details. ]


"All but two of the Germans in the 139 cases we investigated, had been 
kicked in the testicles beyond repair."

"The change [of public opinion] followed the notorious case of the American 
Dachau Tribunal. This tribunal which was abolished in December 1947,  
had tried 1,500 Germans and condemned 420 of them to death. In autumn of 
that year Dachau justicc became the subject of a commission of investigation 
under Judge Gordon Simpson of the Texas Supreme Court. The commission 
recommended that 29 men who were still under sentence ot death should be 
reprieved, and it declared that statements had be obtained both from 
defendents and witnesses by highly questionable means."

[The final solution [1968] by G. Reitlinger. page 548]

Question: 

The 'Americans' tortured defendents. Shouldn't it call into question the 
validity of confessions given in previous trials?

Question:

If the Americans tortured defendents on such a scale, what did the British, 
and Polish/Czech Communists do?

    
-- 

Jeff
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            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Sun Aug  6 15:41:55 PDT 1995
Article: 25099 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: EVERY TRACE OF TRANSIT CAMP AREA AT AUSCHWITZ REMOVED
Date: Fri, 04 Aug 1995 12:14:21 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 66
Message-ID: <172509545wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
Reply-To: jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-Broken-Date: Friday, Aug 04, 1995 12.14.21
X-Newsreader: Newswin Alpha 0.7

THE SWEDISH RESEARCHER Ditleib Felderer is an acquired taste we admit. Those 
who meet him are shocked by his Far Side appearance. His publicity methods 
have annoyed many revisionists.
This excess baggage having been set out and disposed of, ACTION REPORT  
feels that the one year prison term imposed on Felderer in oh-so-liberal 
Sweden is to  be  regarded as proof;of the harm that he has inflicted,  
both with his biting satire ; and with his expert photography on the legends 
of the Holocaust. 
Probably the sentence was enforced as a belated tribute for having testified 
at the Ernst Zundel trial: since the enemy were thwarted at the last moment 
of their real preyZundel was acquitted of all charges on his final appeal 
to the Canadian supreme courtthey have spent the years since 1988 hounding 
down all those who contributed to that verdict, from Douglas Christie and 
his staff, and all the defenee witnesses.
In England this harassment of witnesses would be seen as contempt of court. 
In North America the laws evidently run differently.

BUT BACK TO FELDERER FIRST, WHAT Was his rea1 offence?Certainly not the 
petty charge of printing satirical and often tasteless Holocaust 
caricatures, and mailing them to Jewish addresses, for which he was jailed 
by the Swedish courts (which normally turn the blindest of eyes on 
pornography). We frown on this kind of tomfoolery; but we are not as 
sensitive as some, it seems, because we too receive in the mails letters, 
drawings, and literature of the most obscene and threatening kind, yet we do 
not seek to incarcerate our critics.
Felderers real offence was one or which he cannot be forgiven: From 1971  
onwards he systematically visited the holy Auschwitz site and photographed 
it from  every angle.
He made: hundreds of colour transparencies of professional qualityfor 
example, of the "execution wall" (which mysteriously  does not show up on 
the wartime aerial photos or even in the wartime photos printed in the 
museum's own guidebook: no mystery at all, really, as this wall was erected 
after the war by the Poles, like their  reconstructed gas chamber, for the 
tourists to shudder at.
Felderer took his photographs before Auschwitz was denuded of all evidence 
of use to the revisionists (like light switches, wiring, and central heating 
apparatus, and the hospital equipment which testifies to the Nazis' welfare 
concerns for the slave labourers, even though they were Jews); indeed in the 
last three years the Auschwitz authorities, eagerly turning the site into a 
lucrative Theme Park to rival Euro-Disney , have levelled to the ground and 
removed every trace of the site's wartime Transit Camp area, which provided 
partial answer to the oft-posed question: why did the trains arrive at 
Auschwitz full, and leave empty? - As Michael A Hoffmann II wrote in 
Revisionist Researcher, commenting on Felderer's imprisonment: long after 
the place [Auschwitz] has been altered out of recognition as a defence 
against revisionist criticism, his [Felderers] thousands of expert 
photographs  will stand as the best evidence of what a third-rate Hollywood 
set that place was throughout the 60s, 70s and 80s. 
In March there was good news for Felderer. He was kicked out of prison; 
after serving only part of his sentence. It was found that he was using the 
right of Swedish prison inmates to free postage to inundate Europe and North 
America with revisionist publications, printed stickers and further 
questionable cartoons.


Extract from David Irvings ACTION REPORT MAY 1995.


Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Sun Aug  6 18:49:07 PDT 1995
Article: 25083 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Suchomel Remembers Treblinka
Date: Thu, 03 Aug 1995 18:05:23 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <485702294wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <9507230341.AA20857@lems24.lems.brown.edu>
Reply-To: jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-Broken-Date: Thursday, Aug 03, 1995 18.05.23
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In article: <9507230341.AA20857@lems24.lems.brown.edu>  dk@lems.brown.edu 
(Daniel Keren) writes:
> 
> This is a short excerpt from the eyewitness account of Franz
> Suchomel, a member of the SS who served in the death camp Treblinka.
> It is taken from the movie "Shoa". This is a translation;
> if anyone who saw the movie detects an error, please inform me.
> "L" stands for Lantzman, "S" for Suchomel.
> 
> -Danny Keren.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> S: More and more people were coming and we didn't have the means
>    to kill them. In the "high places" they wanted to evacuate
>    the Warsaw Ghetto quickly. The gas chambers couldn't handle
>    the pressure, those little gas chambers. The Jews had to wait
>    for their turn, a day, two days, sometimes three days. They
>    saw what was awaiting them. They knew - maybe they were not
>    absolutely sure, but they knew. There were Jewish women who
>    slit the veins of their daughters during the night, and then 
>    slit their own veins. Some Jews poisoned themselves. They heard 
>    the engine which fed the gas chambers. A tank engine was in use 
>    in those gas chambers. In Treblinka, the only gas in use was the 
>    exhaust gas of an engine. Zyklon-B was used in Auschwitz.
> 
>    Eberle, the commandant of the camp, called Lublin and said
>    'It is impossible to continue this way, I cannot continue
>    like this, it has to be stopped'. One night Wirth came, checked
>    everything, and immediately went back. He returned with some
>    people from Wolzec, these were practical experts. Wirth 

Wolzec. A non-existant place. The same place as mentioned by 
[supposely] Commandant Hoess of Auschwitz in his "confession", was a death 
camp. But Wolzec doesn't exist.
Hoess, one would expect would know of Poland, but the interrogators knew 
nothing of Poland. But 2 people mentioning the same non-existant place, an 
amazing concidence..... 
Unless of course, the interrogators, wrote the 'confessions.' 


-- 

Jeff
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            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Sun Aug  6 18:49:10 PDT 1995
Article: 25084 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Construction at Birkenau
Date: Thu, 03 Aug 1995 18:52:54 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <632503187wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <9507230334.AA20844@lems24.lems.brown.edu>
Reply-To: jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-Broken-Date: Thursday, Aug 03, 1995 18.52.54
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In article: <9507230334.AA20844@lems24.lems.brown.edu>  dk@lems.brown.edu 
(Daniel Keren) writes:
> 
> Letter from SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Bischoff, of the Auschwitz construction
> department, to SS General Kammler, January 29, 1943
> [The Final Solution: The Attempt to Exterminate the Jews of Europe,
> 1939-1945 - G. Reitlinger, South Brunswick, T. Yosellof, 1968, p. 158-159]
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> Crematorium No. 2. The completed furnaces have been started up in
> the presence of Engineer Prufer from Messers. Topf (of Erfurt). The
> planks cannot yet be moved from the ceiling of the mortuary cellar
> on account of frost, but this is not important, as the gassing
> cellar can be used for that purpose. The ventilation plant has
> been held up by restrictions on rail transport, but the installation
> should be ready by February 20th.
> 

Quote from Reitlinger [the Final Solution (1968 ) page 159]

"In fact Crematorium No 2 was not ready till March 13th. [1943] On June 13th 
it was still the only crematorium of the four which was actually working, 
and the carpentry work was incomplete." 

In June 1943 only 1 of the 4 planned crematoria was working, and the morgue 
[codeword for gas chamber] was covered with planks. 

Remember the Final solution [codewords for "extermination"] had been ordered 
according to the "confession" of Hoess sometime in 1941. 
Two years, the crematoria, and their morgues [codeword for gas chamber] and 
the bath houses [codeword for gas chamber] haven't been completed.  

Still that's Germans for you. Not very efficent. Wouldn't it have made sense 
to build the morgues [codeword for gas chambers] and the Crematoria and the 
Bath houses [codewords for gas chamber] before they started the final 
solution [codewords for extermination]? 

Or could the Germans be building these installations because of the typhus 
epidemic at Auschwitz in March 1942, and another which closed Auschwitz for 
2 months in August 1942?

[The Final Solution [1968] Reitlinger, page 122]




Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Sun Aug  6 18:49:12 PDT 1995
Article: 25085 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: JEWS ARRIVE SICK- JEWS TREATED- JEWS GASSED
Date: Thu, 03 Aug 1995 22:55:29 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 66
Message-ID: <508520490wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <621833145wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> 
Reply-To: jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-Broken-Date: Thursday, Aug 03, 1995 22.55.29
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In article:   dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) 
writes:
> 
> Jeff   wrote:
> 
> # The Germans deport Jews. 
> #
> # They arrive sick. 
> #
> # They are given light dutes, sent to the Revier and the Hospital. 
> #
> # Later, they are gassed.
> #
> # Still, its just another case of Nazi irrationality.
> 
> Yes, the Nazis were irrational.
> 

Of course they were. After all it explains irrational situations like this 
one, doesn't it?
For Keren it does....
But some of you will say "why"......


> The path many of the deportees went through (those not gassed
> upon arrival) was to be used as slaves for some period of time
> and then be gassed, whenever their health deteriorated or when
> new transports came in and there was no longer any need for
> them or any room to keep them in.
> This was elaborated on, for instance, by Dr. Lingens-Reiner, a
> German "political" (non-Jewish) prisoner in Birkenau.
> However, Roberts is not interested in reading what former
> Auschwitz inmates have to say, so he can learn more about
> what happened there and about why the "contradictions" he
> points out are not contradictions at all. 

"Roberts is not interested" says Keren, and he knows of course.

> He's more interested in quoting various nut-cases who were not in  
> Auschwitz during the war, but who nonetheless "know" exactly what
> went on there.
> 
> That is because Roberts, like other "revisionists",
> is an intellectual zero who is not, under any circumstances,
> interested in the truth.

A "Intellectual zero". 

More abuse. 

"who is not, under any circumstances interested in the truth".




-- 

Jeff
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            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Sun Aug  6 18:49:15 PDT 1995
Article: 25086 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: FOUR QUESTIONS FOR BARRY SHEIN
Date: Thu, 03 Aug 1995 22:32:23 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 87
Message-ID: <149767846wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <176148820wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> 
Reply-To: jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-Broken-Date: Thursday, Aug 03, 1995 22.32.23
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In article:   dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) 
writes:
# Question 1. How did the materials drop to the bottom of a 
# solid concrete pillar? 
> 
> They didn't.

Pressac dixit. [I'ill get this book from the library]
How many concrete pillars were there?  

> 
> # Question 2: Which Crematoria at Auschwitz has 10 retorts? 
> 
> As Pressac suggests, he may be talking about the ten units
> consisting of 3 retorts each (5 in Krema II and 5 in Krema III).

None of them. Pressac "suggests" "may be".

[Same criteria as Pressac; I 'suggest' this 'may be' a forgery.]

The only crematoria working at this date was Krema No 2. Krema No 2 has 5 
furnaces with 3 retorts 15 in all.   

[cf Reitlinger [the Final Solution (1968 ) page 159]

Current capacity 10,000 according to this report.
The SS estimated the total cremation capacity at 4,756 in 24 working hours 
 (letter from SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Jahrling to SS-General Kammler, June 25 
1943, see "Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas chambers" - J.C 
Pressac) 

Question 3. What happened between those dates to reduce capacity by over 
5,000? 

You failed to answer this question, Mr Karen.

Question 4.

Current capacity of the resettlement action 10,000 in 24 hours. 

Please explain how the current capacity of Crematorium No 2 which is rated 
as 1440 and that at Auschwitz I of 340 in 24 hours in June)  ie 1780 can 
equal a current capacity of 10,000 in 24 hours in May? 

> Yes, this is an exaggeration.

So the report is wrong on the 10 crematoria, its figures are no where near 
another report a month later, 5 times wrong on the current capacity, and the 
number of steps is wrong as well, and where was this report found? 

At his house?

[I recall that Fleming actually says that. I'ill check]

That's SO lucky. 
 
And this document is entitled " Resettlement of Jews" which is "code" for 
gassing, just like "specially handled" "in readiness for transport" 
"seperately quartered" "removal" are also "codes" for gassing.

Who devised all these 'codewords'? 
The exterminationists, interpret all these phrases and others to mean 
gassing, and suggest the nazis used them as "code" for gassing.  
So why does Himmler need to have it explained in his report?

It is just amazing how lucky it is that this report explains "resettlement". 
Is there a reply from Himmler? I very much doubt it. 
Is there any cross-references to it, from any other offices?
I would very much like to see this report. I expect this document is not 
even given a high security rating, a clear indication of a forgery. 




The Leuchter Report is available from:- 
The Institute of Historical Review PO Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 USA

-- 

Jeff
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            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Sun Aug  6 18:49:17 PDT 1995
Article: 25087 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: WHY DID KRAMER REMAIN BEHIND?
Date: Thu, 03 Aug 1995 22:44:37 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <895694410wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <266963107wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> <3vgs79$1gka@rover.ucs.ualberta.ca>
Reply-To: jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: stumpy.demon.co.uk
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In article: <3vgs79$1gka@rover.ucs.ualberta.ca>  jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca 
(John Morris) writes:
> 
> I assume from Jeff Roberts' silence that we have answered the question
> to his satisfaction and that we will hear no more about it.

I only posted this friday, and on Sunday you say I am silent. 


Kramer, according to you, was deliberately starving the detainees, and was 
responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Jewish detainees by 
using a fumigant to kill them in the morgues [code for gas chambers] at 
Birkenau.    
So what does Kramer do? He arranges a truce with the allies because a typhus 
epidemic has broken out and remains behind in accordence with the terms of 
the truce. 

Didn't he expect a few problems with the crimes he committed?

So why did Kramer remain behind?


-- 

Jeff
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            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Sun Aug  6 18:49:19 PDT 1995
Article: 25088 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Two questions for Jeff Roberts
Date: Thu, 03 Aug 1995 23:34:02 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <698054337wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <176148820wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> <3vbn3l$8fj@access5.digex.net>
Reply-To: jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
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In article: <3vbn3l$8fj@access5.digex.net>  mstein@access5.digex.net 
(Michael P. Stein) writes:
> 
> In article <176148820wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>,
> Jeff   wrote:
> >The Leucher Report is available from:- 
> 
>     Once again, Mr. Roberts, is this the same Leuchter Report written by 
> a proven perjuror, the same Leuchter Report even revisionists such as 
> David Cole find an embarrassment?

Proven perjuror, eh?
When was Leuchter found guilty of perjury? 
Lets see your references for this?  

>     It must be some other Leuchter report.  Surely a real truth-seeker
> such as Mr. Roberts wouldn't use the Leuchter Report I'm familiar with.

Cheap shot, Mr Stein, after all I haven't insulted you. [yet] 

>     The second question: did Lenski reproduce the part of the Zundel trial
> where Leuchter's credentials to be an expert witness were discussed?  
> It's rather amusing.

No, I can't find anything in Lenski, about expert status for Leuchter, 
although Mark Weber, [page 179], Ivan Lagace, [page 250], (who Mr Karen says 
is lying, or ignorant), Professor Robert Faurisson, [page 280], and David 
Irving, [page 400] were apparently granted expert status. 

[There may have been others, as this was a quick scan.]
 

Afaik, Leutcher was denied expert status, because despite the fact, he had 
designed execution gas chambers, [which were not disguised as morgues 
admittedly] they hadn't been utilised. 

Anyway, does it really matter, he's now one of the undead, a intellectual 
zero.


Check out :-)  

"The Holocaust on Trial,The case of Ernst Zundel" by Robert Lenski.

available from:-
The Institute of Historical Review PO Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 USA.

Jeff
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            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Sun Aug  6 18:49:21 PDT 1995
Article: 25089 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: FINAL SOLUTION POSTPONED UNTIL AFTER WAR
Date: Fri, 04 Aug 1995 02:04:40 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <352452135wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
Reply-To: jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
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Did you find "any orders for the extermination of Jews" in the archives 
of any country? asked Christie [defence counsel for Zundel].

"None whatsoever," said [David] Irving. And the British were reading 
the code signals of the SS.

What about Himmler, Heydrich, Frank, and other top Nazis? asked 
Christie.

"There are no explicit orders," said Irving, "and this is where the 
academic historians start asking us to read between the lines and find 
fancy translations for certain words and I wouldn't go along with those 
methods. I want in a crime as big as this to find explicit evidence.

What one does find, said Irving, is documents pointing in the other 
direction. For example, in the spring of 1942, Hans Lammers, who was 
something like the German Prime Minister telephoned the Secretary of 
State of the German Ministry of Justice, who made a note of their 
conversation. Lammers said that Hitler had repeatedly said that he 
wanted the solution of the Jewish problem postponed until after the
war. This document, said Irving, "was concealed at Nuremberg", and 
resurfaced only recently. It "takes some explaining, and this is the 
kind of document which embarrasses the [academic] historians."  
   


The testimony of DAVID IRVING, a EXPERT witness at the Zundel trial.

[Page 406 From the The Holocaust on Trial, The case of Ernst Zundel 
by Robert Lenski.]

The Holocaust on Trial is available from:-

The Institute of Historical Review PO Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 
92659 USA.

-- 

Jeff
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            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Sun Aug  6 18:49:24 PDT 1995
Article: 25090 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: EXPERT? HE'S LYING OR IGNORANT; IDIOT AWARD to MR KEREN
Date: Thu, 03 Aug 1995 23:59:14 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <573176855wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References:    <875291222wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
Reply-To: jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
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The following extract is just part of the testimony at the Zundel trial of 
Ivan Lagace, a funeral director and crematorium manager and operator from 
Calgary, Alberta. Lagace has disposed of more than 10,000 bodies since 1976, 
and cremated more than 1000 since 1984. He has handled victims of fire, 
accident, and disease, and has seen every stage of bodily composition.

He was accorded EXPERT status at the Zundel trial.

Lagace next explained some calculations he had made after studying the plans 
for the 46 retorts at Birkenau.(Auschwitz II)
Christie [defence counsel for Zundel] asked him how these compared to the 
plans for his own crematorium.
Well, said Lagace, When I first looked at these [Birkenau plans], I was 
amazed." The specifications were almost identical to his own retort, 
including the unusually high 45-foot stack. Based on the afterburner design, 
he added, it is obvious they were concerned with environmental effects. 
There would be no smoke and no odor."
Lagace estimated that the 46 retorts at Birkenau could handle about 184 
bodies daily, or four apiece.
But, asked Christie, what about Raul Hilberg's estimate of 4,400 cremations 
per day at Birkenau?
Well," said Lagace, that's preposterous, in my eyes. It's beyond the realm 
of reality."
Christie asked if operating 24 hours a day would raise the output.
Just the opposite, insisted Lagace, it would shorten the lifespan of the 
refractory" and create costly delays.
Christie read to Lagace from Hilberg's account of a period in 1944 when 
about 10,000 Jews a day were allegedly being gassed at Birkenau, and asked 
again if the 46 retorts could have cremated 4,400 of the victims daily.
Lagace: It would be ludicrous to say something like that.

dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
"Well, this "EXPERT" is either lying or he has no idea what
he's talking about......"

Well, Keren knows better. Keren is a expert. For example, Keren 
certainly knows about abuse. He's a expert on it. Especially 
self-abuse. 


See what another "intellectual zero" like Ivan Lagace has to say:-

Check out:- 

The Holocaust on Trial ,The case of Ernst Zundel by Robert Lenski.

The Institute of Historical Review PO Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 
92659 USA.




Jeff
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            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Sun Aug  6 18:49:27 PDT 1995
Article: 25092 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: CREMATION RATE AT BIRKENAU LUDICROUS says Keren
Date: Fri, 04 Aug 1995 01:37:48 GMT
Organization: None
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
> There's BTW a patent, submitted by the very same Topf firm
> in 1951, which gives a cremation time of 30-45 minutes
> per corpse. It is not the same type of furnace as the
> one used in Birkenau, but this figure obviously means
> a lot, assuming the science of cremation has not made
> a quantum leap right after the war. Once more, the
> revisionazis have failed to do their homework."

So let's use Karen's figures to work out the crematory rates for 
Birkenau, after all, he knows better than Ivan Lagace, an "intellectual 
zero" who was granted Expert status on Cremation at the Zundel trial, 

["Lagace estimated that the 46 retorts at Birkenau could handle about 184 
bodies daily, or four apiece." (Holocaust on Trial Page 239)]

Lagace is obviously a Neo-Nazi liar or Neo-Nazi ignoramus or more 
likely - a Neo-Nazi lying ignoramus.


There was 46 retorts at Auschwitz II (Birkenau).

At the best possible rate [on 1951 figures], flat out with no problems, no maintenance, no warming up, no cooling down, no tea breaks, etc 
at 30 minutes per corpse the 46 retorts at Birkenau would have cremated:-

46 * 24 * 2 = 2208 corpses a day.  


A bit short of the SS estimate of 4,756 a day. 
[letter from SS-SturmbannfuehrerJahrling to SS-General Kammler, June 25 1943, see "Auschwitz:Technique and operation of the gas chambers" - J.C Pressac,the Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, NY, 1989, p. 247] 

And a little short of the Polish Commission of Inquiry's estimate of 12,000 a day. [The Final Solution [1968]; Reitlinger page 159]

And even Hoess the commandant of Auschwitz, who seems to have a lot of problems with numbers  -------- 16,000 a day. 
[The Final Solution [1968]; Reitlinger page 159]

And just a little bit short of inmate Olga lengel's estimate of 17,280 a day. ("Five chimmeys" P68 cited in; Destruction of the European Jews 1961 
Hilberg page 629) 

And just a little bit short of Dr Nysizli's estimate of 20,000 a day.
[The Final Solution [1968]; Reitlinger page 159]


At the next possible rate [on 1951 figures], flat out with no problems, no maintenance, no warming up, no cooling down, and no tea breaks, etc 
at 45 minutes per corpse the 46 retorts at Birkenau would have cremated:-

46 * 32 = 1472 corpses per day.  

A bit short of the SS estimate of       ------------------ 4,756 a day. 
And a little short of the Polish Commission's estimate of 12,000 a day. 
Hoess the commandant of Auschwitz,               -------- 16,000 a day. 
Inmate Olga lengel's estimate --------------------------- 17,280 a day.
Dr Nysizli's estimate ----------------------------------- 20,000 a day.

However, these were 1951 figures, for the 1940s, let's make it a hour 
per corpse:-  

46 * 24 = 1104 a day. 

A bit short of the SS estimate of       ------------------ 4,756 a day. 
And a little short of the Polish Commission's estimate of 12,000 a day. 
Hoess the commandant of Auschwitz, he's wrong again------ 16,000 a day. 
Inmate Olga lengel's estimate --------------------------- 17,280 a day.
Dr Nysizli's estimate ----------------------------------- 20,000 a day.


However, let's not be a intellectual zero like Roberts or Baron, and complain that even these figures are unrealistic, let's remember that the Nazis [or the Jewish Sonderkommando who actually operated the retorts, who worked hard and were highly traine
, and were next for gassing] stuck 3 
corpses in at a time, in every retort, right through those 24 hours, despite the fact the retorts were designed for single corpse cremation, and did it flat out with no problems, no maintenance, no warming up, no cooling down, etc. 

Now let us IGNORE the idea that this might take 3 times as long, and say it will take the SAME time as for 1 corpse, as everyone knows it will, otherwise we may be classed as intellectual zeros, and we wouldn't want that would we.  

1) Best possible rate [1951] 46 * 48 = 6624. [10 minutes per corpse]

2) Next best rate [1951]     46 * 32 = 4416. [15 minutes per corpse]

3) 1940's rate               46 * 24 = 3312. [20 minutes per corpse]

At last the forged SS letter estimate is in range.  ------ 4,756 a day. 
But a little short of the Polish Commission's estimate of 12,000 a day. 
Hoess the commandant of Auschwitz, he's wrong again------ 16,000 a day. 
Inmate Olga lengel's estimate --------------------------- 17,280 a day.
Dr Nysizli's estimate ----------------------------------- 20,000 a day.


Now that's better, that SS estimate now FITS.


Back to sleep.
 

PS: Comment, Jamie?

-- 
Jeff
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            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)
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From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Sun Aug  6 18:49:30 PDT 1995
Article: 25093 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: DACHAU TRIALS BLOT ON US JUSTICE THE CASE OF GUSTAV PERAT 3.
Date: Fri, 04 Aug 1995 02:51:52 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 71
Message-ID: <786477005wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <117124987wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
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Petrat's post-conviction plea was in the case file, a forlorn voice from the 
grave which I read with pangs of sorrow. His statement had been prepared in 
German had been submitted to the Military Governor of the US Zone of 
Occupation in English translation. Since no more than a handful of Americans 
have seen this or any other  German "war criminal's" side of the story, I 
reproduce it in its entirety, as follows:
 
I, Gustav PETRAT, born 12 November 1924 in Wirballen/Litauen [Lithuania], 
presently in Landsberg/Lech, make the following sworn statement after I have 
been informed that this statement is to be submitted to the Military 
Governor of the US Zone and that an false statement may be severely 
punished.
 
l. In May 1944, on account of my wound, I was transferred to the guard 
personnel of the Mauthausen concentration camp and served there as dog 
leader with the 16th Guard Company. My rank was Corporal (Rottenfuehrer) in 
the Armed (Waffen) SS.
 
[paragraphs 2-8 already posted] 

9. On 15th July 1947 I recieved a general charge sheet and was transferred 
with my co-accused to the Bunker I, camp Dachau.
It was impossible for me to procure any exonerating material there. One was 
cut off from the outside world. 
Letters to relatives or acquaintances in which something was said about 
witnesses or the approaching trial were so cut up that the receiver received 
only scraps from which he could glean nothing. For that reason it was made 
impossible for me to procure any defense material. Requests for special 
letters to witnesses or prior reports to the defense lawyer were fruitless.
Already in little things they were making the procuring of exonerating 
material impossible. Also the time before the beginning of the trial was far 
too short to obtain any material.

10. On 6 August 1947 the trial began, and lasted unti 21 August.

11. The prosecution witnesses had every support of the prosecuting 
authorities. When they were shown to be lying, up jumped the prosecutor, Mr. 
Lindberg, and accused the defense lawyer of intimidating the witnesses and 
trying to make out that they were liars.

12. In reality, the opposite was the truth. Defense witnesses were 
intimidated by the braying of the prosecutor or were branded as false. It 
happened that defense witnesses were threatened and beaten by foreign former 
prisoners so that the former had no more interest in appearing for the 
defense. They were afraid that they too would be accused of something, which 
the foreign prisoners were quite capable of, as they hated everything German 
and were out for revenge.

What happened next? Well, it gets much much worse......

Perats statement is cited on Pages 258 to 263 in Innocent at Dachau by 
Joseph Halow.]

INNOCENT AT DACHAU is available from:-

The Institute of Historical Review PO Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 USA.
 
PS more to follow.


-- 
 
Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Sun Aug  6 18:49:32 PDT 1995
Article: 25095 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: HIMMLER INVESTIGATES GASSING RUMOURS
Date: Fri, 04 Aug 1995 03:15:20 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 47
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Early in September 1942 the London Daily Telegraph published reports 
>from  Warsaw that seven thousand Jews a day were being deported from the 
ghetto and executed -  a total of 700,000 by May 1942. "In many cases gas 
chambers had been used."  
In a Top Secret telegram Goebbel's ministry asked Hans Frank for an 
explanation.  
Via New York, the same report reached Himmler; writing to Gestapo chief 
Muller on November 30, he called it a "very interesting [press]announcement 
about a memorandum written by Dr. [Stephen F.] Wise [President of the 
American Jewish Congress] in September 1942."  and commented: "Given 
the scale of the Jewish migration, I'm not surprised that such rumours 
crop up somewhere in the world.  We both know there's a high death rate 
among the Jews who are put to work.  But you are to guarantee to me that at 
each location the cadavers of these deceased Jews are either burned or
buried, and that nothing else can happen with the cadavers wherever they 
are.  You are to investigate at once in all quarters to find out whether 
there have been any such abuses as the -no doubt mendacious- rumors 
disseminated around the world claim.  All such abuses are to be 
reported to me on the SS oath of honor" 

(Us National Archives No T175/68/4325).  

Page 820 Hitlers War [latest edition] by David Irving.


Think on this. Himmler has heard of a claim that gassing is taking 
place made by Dr Wise, President of the World Jewish Congress.
He gets [Obergruppenfuhrer Heinrich] Muller, head of the State Secret 
Police to investigate. 

Question:

Why should Himmler get Muller "to investigate at once in all quarters to 
find out whether there have been any such abuses as the - no doubt 
mendacious rumours" claim, if he is gassing and murdering Jews by the 
million? 

Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Sun Aug  6 18:49:35 PDT 1995
Article: 25097 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: EVERYTHING ABOUT IT (AUSCHWITZ I) IS FAKE
Date: Fri, 04 Aug 1995 03:51:18 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <526802963wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
Reply-To: jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
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        L'EXPRESS: "Tout y est faux" - Everything about it is Fake 

                 FRENCH MAKE A CLEAN BREAST: 
         ADMIT FORTY SEVEN YEAR AUSCHWITZ "GAS CHAMBER" FRAUD

PARIS-Braving the risk of prosecution under France's draconic new 
Fabius-Gayssot Law, the mass circulation national weekly magazine L'Express 
has admitted that the gas chamber shown to tourists at Auschwitz is a FAKE - 
built by the Polish Communists three years after the War. 

This was the claim which British writer David Irving made in Munich in April 
1990: a remark for which the German government fined him DM30,000 ($22,000) 
and banned him from Germany in 1993. The Court of Human Rights in 
Strasboug has now agreed to hear the appeal his lawyers against Germany.
The largely Jewish-owned French magazine L'Express, which is comparable with 
the US magazine Time and with Germany's Der Spiegel, slated in a 
well-researched article (titled: "Auschswitz: The Memoir ot Evil ) appearing 
under the by-line of anti-revisionist historian Eric Conan that the 
authorities at Auschwitz have now conceded the fraud - but they also admit 
that for them there is now no going back.
The admission represents a major vindication for Professor Robert Faurisson, 
who was the first public figure to point to the fraud, back in 1976. 
Unable to accept the truth, his opponents have subjected him to a reign 
of terror since then. In one incident a gang of thugs, who were immediately 
denounced by the rest of the Jewish community, poured acid into Faurisson's 
eyes, and broke his upper and Iower jaws almost beyond repair.

....Now the Auschwitz gas chamber legend is finally crumbling too. Just as the leading revisionists promised it would.
In his article Eric Conan states that there been many blatant falsifications in the Auschwitz and Birkenau concentration camp sites. In particular he reveals that at the time that the Auschwitz State was created for propaganda purposes in 1948, they "r
constructed" Crematorium I in its supposed original state; In fact "everythingin it is false." [Tout y est faux] -
the dimensions of the "gas chamber", the locations of the doors, the roof openings for pouring in Zyklon B poison, the "ovens" ("rebuilt according to the recollections of some survivors"), and the height of the chimmey.  
[This confirms recent revisionist investigators who claimed that there was no link between the supposed chimmey and the crematorium: it is a dummy.]

Professor [Robert] Faurisson was the first to reveal the deception in 1976, when he cornered museum official Jan Machalek into making an admission that the "gas chamber" was a "reconstruction". Faurisson reported this in the French National newspaper L
 Monde on December 29, 1978 and Holocaust expert Raul Hilberg admitted under oath at the 1985 Zundel trial in Toronto that this was true. 

Faurisson's 1976 investigation of the original plans in the museum archives at Auschwitz revealed that until 1942, the "gas chamber"was nothing more than an almost totally enclosed room for storing cadavers awaiting incineration in the endlessly slow c
eamatorium one floor above. 

....Astonishingly, there are no plans to alter the way that the fake gas chamber is displayed to tourists, who are still to be led to believe they are seeing the right thing.




Extracts from David Irvings Action Report May 1995.


Jeff
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            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Sun Aug  6 18:49:37 PDT 1995
Article: 25098 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: AMERICANS TORTURE GERMANS TO EXTORT "CONFESSIONS"
Date: Fri, 04 Aug 1995 13:22:04 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 81
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         AMERICANS TORTURE GERMANS TO EXTORT "CONFESSIONS".

By Fred Redman

TODAY I am able to tell you the full story, revealed in Washington, of the 
American war trials scandal. It is an ugly story of barbarous tortures 
inflicted in the name of Allied justice. 
It is time the British people knew all the facts. Little has appeared in our 
press until today.
The charge is that American soldiers, building evidence against Germans 
accused of war crimes, have behaved with the same sadistic cruelty as the 
beasts who terrorised Europe when it was under Nazi domination.

The truth has come out through the persistence of an American lawyer and the 
frank horror of an American Judge who refuses to be muzzled.
Judge Edward Van Roden member of a US Army Commission of Inquiry tells how 
burning matches were forced under the fingernails of a prisoner by American 
investigators to extort a confession. For months, he says, men were kept in 
solitary confinement on near-starvation rations. 
And they were beaten up and savagely kicked until strong men were redeuced 
to broken wrecks ready to mumble any admission demanded by their 
prosecutors. 

The war department have shown the Judges personal report only to General 
Lucius Clay, their military commander in Germany. Washington suspects the 
reason was that it was too shocking for public disclosure. 

....Commission sent to Germany to investigate was was even more candid.
"All but two of the Germans in the 139 cases we investigated, had been 
kicked in the testicles beyond repair." he charged.
"this was standard operating procedure with our American investigators.
"They would put a black hood over the accused's head and then punch him in 
the face with brass knuckles."
US Army prosecution teams had he said had posed as priests to hear 
confessions and give absolution.

At mock trials men who refused to confess were confronted by a crucifix
and burning candles. Those sham courts, attended by men in US Army uniform, 
passed sham death sentences. Then the accused were told: "Sign this 
confession and we get you acquitted." 

[The Sunday Pictorial Jan 23rd 1949 as cited on p82 in "Holocaust Denial; 
New Nazi Lie or New Inquisition" by Alexander Baron"]
Email A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk for details. ]


"All but two of the Germans in the 139 cases we investigated, had been 
kicked in the testicles beyond repair."

"The change [of public opinion] followed the notorious case of the American 
Dachau Tribunal. This tribunal which was abolished in December 1947,  
had tried 1,500 Germans and condemned 420 of them to death. In autumn of 
that year Dachau justicc became the subject of a commission of investigation 
under Judge Gordon Simpson of the Texas Supreme Court. The commission 
recommended that 29 men who were still under sentence ot death should be 
reprieved, and it declared that statements had be obtained both from 
defendents and witnesses by highly questionable means."

[The final solution [1968] by G. Reitlinger. page 548]

Question: 

The 'Americans' tortured defendents. Shouldn't it call into question the 
validity of confessions given in previous trials?

Question:

If the Americans tortured defendents on such a scale, what did the British, 
and Polish/Czech Communists do?

    
-- 

Jeff
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            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Sun Aug  6 18:49:40 PDT 1995
Article: 25099 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: EVERY TRACE OF TRANSIT CAMP AREA AT AUSCHWITZ REMOVED
Date: Fri, 04 Aug 1995 12:14:21 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 66
Message-ID: <172509545wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
Reply-To: jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
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THE SWEDISH RESEARCHER Ditleib Felderer is an acquired taste we admit. Those 
who meet him are shocked by his Far Side appearance. His publicity methods 
have annoyed many revisionists.
This excess baggage having been set out and disposed of, ACTION REPORT  
feels that the one year prison term imposed on Felderer in oh-so-liberal 
Sweden is to  be  regarded as proof;of the harm that he has inflicted,  
both with his biting satire ; and with his expert photography on the legends 
of the Holocaust. 
Probably the sentence was enforced as a belated tribute for having testified 
at the Ernst Zundel trial: since the enemy were thwarted at the last moment 
of their real preyZundel was acquitted of all charges on his final appeal 
to the Canadian supreme courtthey have spent the years since 1988 hounding 
down all those who contributed to that verdict, from Douglas Christie and 
his staff, and all the defenee witnesses.
In England this harassment of witnesses would be seen as contempt of court. 
In North America the laws evidently run differently.

BUT BACK TO FELDERER FIRST, WHAT Was his rea1 offence?Certainly not the 
petty charge of printing satirical and often tasteless Holocaust 
caricatures, and mailing them to Jewish addresses, for which he was jailed 
by the Swedish courts (which normally turn the blindest of eyes on 
pornography). We frown on this kind of tomfoolery; but we are not as 
sensitive as some, it seems, because we too receive in the mails letters, 
drawings, and literature of the most obscene and threatening kind, yet we do 
not seek to incarcerate our critics.
Felderers real offence was one or which he cannot be forgiven: From 1971  
onwards he systematically visited the holy Auschwitz site and photographed 
it from  every angle.
He made: hundreds of colour transparencies of professional qualityfor 
example, of the "execution wall" (which mysteriously  does not show up on 
the wartime aerial photos or even in the wartime photos printed in the 
museum's own guidebook: no mystery at all, really, as this wall was erected 
after the war by the Poles, like their  reconstructed gas chamber, for the 
tourists to shudder at.
Felderer took his photographs before Auschwitz was denuded of all evidence 
of use to the revisionists (like light switches, wiring, and central heating 
apparatus, and the hospital equipment which testifies to the Nazis' welfare 
concerns for the slave labourers, even though they were Jews); indeed in the 
last three years the Auschwitz authorities, eagerly turning the site into a 
lucrative Theme Park to rival Euro-Disney , have levelled to the ground and 
removed every trace of the site's wartime Transit Camp area, which provided 
partial answer to the oft-posed question: why did the trains arrive at 
Auschwitz full, and leave empty? - As Michael A Hoffmann II wrote in 
Revisionist Researcher, commenting on Felderer's imprisonment: long after 
the place [Auschwitz] has been altered out of recognition as a defence 
against revisionist criticism, his [Felderers] thousands of expert 
photographs  will stand as the best evidence of what a third-rate Hollywood 
set that place was throughout the 60s, 70s and 80s. 
In March there was good news for Felderer. He was kicked out of prison; 
after serving only part of his sentence. It was found that he was using the 
right of Swedish prison inmates to free postage to inundate Europe and North 
America with revisionist publications, printed stickers and further 
questionable cartoons.


Extract from David Irvings ACTION REPORT MAY 1995.


Jeff
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            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Mon Aug  7 18:25:09 PDT 1995
Article: 25083 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Suchomel Remembers Treblinka
Date: Thu, 03 Aug 1995 18:05:23 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <485702294wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <9507230341.AA20857@lems24.lems.brown.edu>
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In article: <9507230341.AA20857@lems24.lems.brown.edu>  dk@lems.brown.edu 
(Daniel Keren) writes:
> 
> This is a short excerpt from the eyewitness account of Franz
> Suchomel, a member of the SS who served in the death camp Treblinka.
> It is taken from the movie "Shoa". This is a translation;
> if anyone who saw the movie detects an error, please inform me.
> "L" stands for Lantzman, "S" for Suchomel.
> 
> -Danny Keren.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> S: More and more people were coming and we didn't have the means
>    to kill them. In the "high places" they wanted to evacuate
>    the Warsaw Ghetto quickly. The gas chambers couldn't handle
>    the pressure, those little gas chambers. The Jews had to wait
>    for their turn, a day, two days, sometimes three days. They
>    saw what was awaiting them. They knew - maybe they were not
>    absolutely sure, but they knew. There were Jewish women who
>    slit the veins of their daughters during the night, and then 
>    slit their own veins. Some Jews poisoned themselves. They heard 
>    the engine which fed the gas chambers. A tank engine was in use 
>    in those gas chambers. In Treblinka, the only gas in use was the 
>    exhaust gas of an engine. Zyklon-B was used in Auschwitz.
> 
>    Eberle, the commandant of the camp, called Lublin and said
>    'It is impossible to continue this way, I cannot continue
>    like this, it has to be stopped'. One night Wirth came, checked
>    everything, and immediately went back. He returned with some
>    people from Wolzec, these were practical experts. Wirth 

Wolzec. A non-existant place. The same place as mentioned by 
[supposely] Commandant Hoess of Auschwitz in his "confession", was a death 
camp. But Wolzec doesn't exist.
Hoess, one would expect would know of Poland, but the interrogators knew 
nothing of Poland. But 2 people mentioning the same non-existant place, an 
amazing concidence..... 
Unless of course, the interrogators, wrote the 'confessions.' 


-- 

Jeff
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            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Mon Aug  7 18:25:12 PDT 1995
Article: 25084 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Construction at Birkenau
Date: Thu, 03 Aug 1995 18:52:54 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <632503187wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <9507230334.AA20844@lems24.lems.brown.edu>
Reply-To: jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-Broken-Date: Thursday, Aug 03, 1995 18.52.54
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In article: <9507230334.AA20844@lems24.lems.brown.edu>  dk@lems.brown.edu 
(Daniel Keren) writes:
> 
> Letter from SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Bischoff, of the Auschwitz construction
> department, to SS General Kammler, January 29, 1943
> [The Final Solution: The Attempt to Exterminate the Jews of Europe,
> 1939-1945 - G. Reitlinger, South Brunswick, T. Yosellof, 1968, p. 158-159]
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> Crematorium No. 2. The completed furnaces have been started up in
> the presence of Engineer Prufer from Messers. Topf (of Erfurt). The
> planks cannot yet be moved from the ceiling of the mortuary cellar
> on account of frost, but this is not important, as the gassing
> cellar can be used for that purpose. The ventilation plant has
> been held up by restrictions on rail transport, but the installation
> should be ready by February 20th.
> 

Quote from Reitlinger [the Final Solution (1968 ) page 159]

"In fact Crematorium No 2 was not ready till March 13th. [1943] On June 13th 
it was still the only crematorium of the four which was actually working, 
and the carpentry work was incomplete." 

In June 1943 only 1 of the 4 planned crematoria was working, and the morgue 
[codeword for gas chamber] was covered with planks. 

Remember the Final solution [codewords for "extermination"] had been ordered 
according to the "confession" of Hoess sometime in 1941. 
Two years, the crematoria, and their morgues [codeword for gas chamber] and 
the bath houses [codeword for gas chamber] haven't been completed.  

Still that's Germans for you. Not very efficent. Wouldn't it have made sense 
to build the morgues [codeword for gas chambers] and the Crematoria and the 
Bath houses [codewords for gas chamber] before they started the final 
solution [codewords for extermination]? 

Or could the Germans be building these installations because of the typhus 
epidemic at Auschwitz in March 1942, and another which closed Auschwitz for 
2 months in August 1942?

[The Final Solution [1968] Reitlinger, page 122]




Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 11 16:35:08 PDT 1995
Article: 30880 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.mindlink.net!agate!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!sdd.hp.com!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: THREE QUESTIONS FOR JEFF ROBERTS
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 18:11:06 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 118
Message-ID: <389626855wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <199508042224.AA21761@world.std.com>
Reply-To: jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
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In article: <199508042224.AA21761@world.std.com>  dkeren@world.std.com 
(Daniel Keren) writes:
> 
> In <352452135wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>, posted on
> Fri, 04 Aug 1995 02:04:40 GMT, Roberts wrote:
> 
> # Did you find "any orders for the extermination of Jews"
> # in the archives of any country? asked Christie
> # [defence counsel for Zundel].
> #
> # "None whatsoever," said [David] Irving.
> 
> Ok, here are the questions:
> 
> 1) Was Irving convicted of lying and slandering in his
>    book about the PQ17 convoy, and ordered by a British
>    court to pay 40,000 Pounds in compensation?
> 
>    Yes or no?

The answer IS NO. 

Irving was not convicted of "lying" as because [afaik] there's no offence of 
that name under English or Scots law. Slander is verbal, not written. 

I presume this question is actually an allusion about the bitter libel cases 
re: Irving's Book on the PQ-17 convoy.

"When author David Irving researched the history of disastrous 
Anglo-American convoy operation PQ-17 of June 1942 he stumbled upon the 
guiltiest secrets in the Admiralty's locker:  through their own blundering 
incompetence they had mis-read the intentions of the Nazi battle fleet, 
mis-interpreted the decoded signals, and abandoned the richly laden convoy 
of ships to certain destruction by bombers and submarines in the sub-zero 
waters of the Arctic. Centuries-old publishing house Cassell & co. published 
Irving's best-selling narrative in 1967.
Their edition had at that time to omit certain well-kept secrets of World 
War II.
 Even so the Navy struck back immediately at author Irving, himself the son
of a naval officer.  Funded by naval officers, an ex-captain began three
years of bitter legal actions that made headlines in Britain and ended with
the book being banned all around the world, the author ordered to pay the
heaviest damages in British legal history, and publisher Cassell's forced 
out of business; in the finest British naval tradition the captain too lost
nearly all he had in the battle.  The Navy however sent a cheery telegram of
victory to Irving on the night the courts ordered the ban: "WE ARE SPLICING
THE MAINBRACE IN PORTSMOUTH TONIGHT" - an extra ration of rum for all hands.
Irving came back fighting - "dismasted but not dismayed," as he put it.  The 
release of the Admiralty signals on Ultra-reinstated in [the new edition of 
THE DESTRUCTION OF CONVOY PQ-17] vindicates him.  As Admiral Sir Norman 
Denning, director of British Naval Intelligence, said when he first read 
Irving's account: "This is the finest history of an Allied naval operation I 
ever read."
[Note this is from the forward to THE DESTRUCTION OF CONVOY PQ-17  St. 
Martins Press 1987.]

> 
> 2) Does Irving mention in his book, "Hitler's War" (1977),
>    a letter in SS-files, October 25 1941, from Dr. Wetzel
>    to Reichskommissar Lohse, explicitly discussing gassing
>    of Jews, 

Yes. [Page 330]

> and does not Irving himself state in the book
> that this letter does indeed discuss gassing of Jews?
> 
>    Yes or no?

Yes. [it mentions that Jews will be gassed by gas trucks at Riga, Latvia]

[Note; to revisionists; I recall this document was one of those "processed" 
by the Yivo in New York, and purports to be from the Offices for the Eastern 
territories [Alfred] Rosenberg's Ministry, can someone confirm?] 

> 
> 3) Does a document which discusses gassing of Jews
>    classify as "an order [f?]or the extermination of Jews"?
> 
>    Yes or no?

No.

David Irving's "Hitlers War" came out in 1977, 18 years ago, since then he 
has considerably changed his views.  

At the 1988 Zundel trial where he appeared as a EXPERT witness, he said in 
answer to the prosecuting counsel question of "....that secret extermination 
camps did not begin operating until December 1941?"

"I think I have to say here that this sentence falls into the category of 
sentences that I would not repeat in 1988.  At the time I wrote that in the 
1960's, 1974 thereabouts when I wrote...that introduction, I believed.  I 
believed everything I had heard about the extermination camps.  I wasn't 
investigating the extermination camps.  I was investigating Hitler....My 
mind has now changed.  I have now begun to challenge that.  I understand it 
is now a subject open to debate...My belief has now changed because I 
understand that the whole of the Holocaust mythology is, after all, open to 
doubt."

cited in "DID SIX MILLION REALLY DIE?" BY Barbara KULASZKA

Available from:-
The Institute of Historical Review PO Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 USA.



-- 

Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------




From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 11 16:35:11 PDT 1995
Article: 30881 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.mindlink.net!agate!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!sdd.hp.com!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: 1) THE CASE OF GUSTAV PERAT
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 18:17:09 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 71
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Petrat's post-conviction plea was in the case file, a forlorn voice from the 
grave which I read with pangs of sorrow. His statement had been prepared in 
German had been submitted to the Military Governor of the US Zone of 
Occupation in English translation. Since no more than a handful of Americans 
have seen this or any other  German "war criminal's" side of the story, I 
reproduce it in its entirety, as follows:

I, Gustav PETRAT, born 12 November 1924 in Wirballen/Litauen [Lithuania], 
presently in Landsberg/Lech, make the following sworn statement after I have 
been informed that this statement is to be submitted to the Military 
Governor of the US Zone and that an false statement may be severely 
punished.

l. In May 1944, on account of my wound, I was transferred to the guard 
personnel of the Mauthausen concentration camp and served there as dog 
leader with the 16th Guard Company. My rank was Corporal (Rottenfuehrer) in 
the Armed (Waffen) SS.

2. On 10 May 1945, I was taken prisoner by American  soldiers in Reid near 
Mauthausen and taken to the Tittling camp. When I got there I was mistreated 
with whips, fists and feet, as was the general custom at that time for newly 
arrived prisoners.

3. Like many others I was quartered in a potato patch in the open air, so 
that we all were exposecl to the weather.
The first three days we received nothing to eat, and from the fourth day on 
they gave us one loaf of bread for every 20 prisoners and 1 liter of soup 
for every two men. Under these conditions I lived for some weeks until I was 
totally undernourished, so that it was hardly possible for me to move from 
the spot.

4. On 26 May 1945 I had my first interrogation there, which was one of the 
most memorable of my entire captivity. Even before they asked me the first 
Question, they struck me so that I collapsed. After I had managed to stagger 
upright again in spite of my weak condition and aidcd by the necessary kicks 
>from  the interrogator, the real interrogation began. They asked me questions 
that I could not have answered if I had the best will in the world to do so. 
I was to state where the leader of the Mauthausen Concentration Camp was. It 
was impossiblc for me to give the information, since I really didn't know, 
and, as a little corporal I couldn't know. My reply loosed a hail of blows. 
The second question concerned myself. They asked rne how many prisoners I 
had shot and beaten, to which I replied truthfully and with a clean 
conscience, "Not one."
Then the interrogator drew a pistol and threatened to kill me if I did not 
tell the truth, immediately. He meant, however, that I should be hanged. I 
told him again that I only spoke the truth and he could kill me if he wanted 
to, that at least I would be freed from the whole mess. Then more blows, and 
with a push in the small of the back I fled [sic].


Perats statement is cited on Pages 258 to 263 in Innocent at Dachau by Joseph Halow.]

INNOCENT AT DACHAU is available from:-

The Institute of Historical Review PO Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 USA.




-- 

Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------





From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 11 16:35:14 PDT 1995
Article: 30882 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.mindlink.net!agate!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!simtel!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: 2) THE CASE OF GUSTAV PERAT
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 18:19:34 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 68
Message-ID: <842268wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
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5. On 9 May 1945 I was taken to the Moosburg internment camp with about 80 
other prisoners. On 7 September 1945 I had my second interrogation, in 
Moosburg, at which they asked me the same questions they asked in the 
Tittling camp. There too, I received blows from a whip. This consisted of a 
wooden handle about 30 cm  long to which leather straps had been fastened. 
Since I had to answer the questions in the negative, they told me that there 
were other ways and means to force me to tell the truth. Then the 
interrogator left the room for a few minutes, and returned with a second 
interrogator. Since I had to reply to this man's questions in the negative 
also, because I did not know of any killing, he struck me with his fists and 
threatened to "hang" and "shoot" me. After I stuck to my guns, I was taken 
back to my quarters.
On 10 February 1946 I was transferred to the Dachau internment camp.

6. There I was interrogated two times. At the interrogation on 21 June 1946 
they read statements to me that said that I had shot eight prisoners in the 
Mauthausen concentration camp. I was to sign this, but I vigorously refused 
because I never shot a prisoner. After repeated requests to sign, I was 
struck with fists and kicked with feet. They put a paper in front of me to 
sign in which it said that l had never been beaten by American interrogators 
and soldiers. I refused, and only after repeated blows, with the threat that 
I would never leave the room alive until I had signed, and that they would 
know how to break me down my obstinacy, did I put my name to it. I had never 
had anything to do with the court in my life and I was afraid that they 
would make my life even more difficult.

7. In  January 1947 the so-called "line-ups" commenced  in Dachau Special 
Camp. I was confronted with prisoners three  times, yet not one accused me 
of the least thing. The man in charge of the line-up, Mr. ENTRESS, told the 
prisoners that I was said to have shot many and beaten them to death, where 
at only a burst of laugher arose. At that time I was 22 years old. When I 
was 19.5  I came to Mauthausen as dog-leader. A former prominent prisoner, Dr. SANNER, asserted he did not know me, but if a dog-leader had beaten prisoners to death or shot them that would certainly have become known in the camp. Many other former lon
-term prisoners joined in this exonerating testimony.

8. At mid-July 1947 I and my seven co-accused were presented for the first 
time to our official defense lawyer, Major Willilm A.OATES. To his question 
whether I knew what I was accused of, and by whom, I could only reply that I 
was not conscious of any guilt and also had never counted on being brought  
to trial, since I had never mistreated or killed anyone.
Major OATES  told me that he too, knew nothing, that he could not get a 
glimpse of the incriminating papers of the proseation, and therefore he 
would have to go by my statements, the general charge sheet, and the 
testimony of the prosecution witnesses at the trial.
Since only the prosecution had access to the records, my lawyer did not see 
them, and so naturally it was very difficult for him to prepare a defense. 
Major OATES promised to do everything he could. Also I gave him the names of 
lhe witnesses who were important for me, and who themselves were interned in 
Dachau.


Perats statement is cited on Pages 258 to 263 in Innocent at Dachau by 
Joseph Halow.]

INNOCENT AT DACHAU is available from:-

The Institute of Historical Review PO Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 USA.
-- 

Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------




From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 11 16:35:18 PDT 1995
Article: 30883 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.mindlink.net!agate!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!simtel!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: 3) THE CASE OF GUSTAV PERAT
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 18:56:46 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <693742203wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
Reply-To: jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
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9. On 15th July 1947 I recieved a general charge sheet and was transferred 
with my co-accused to the Bunker I, camp Dachau.
It was impossible for me to procure any exonerating material there. One was 
cut off from the outside world. 
Letters to relatives or acquaintances in which something was said about 
witnesses or the approaching trial were so cut up that the receiver received 
only scraps from which he could glean nothing. For that reason it was made 
impossible for me to procure any defense material. Requests for special 
letters to witnesses or prior reports to the defense lawyer were fruitless.
Already in little things they were making the procuring of exonerating 
material impossible. Also the time before the beginning of the trial was far 
too short to obtain any material.

10. On 6 August 1947 the trial began, and lasted unti 21 August.

11. The prosecution witnesses had every support of the prosecuting 
authorities. When they were shown to be lying, up jumped the prosecutor, Mr. 
Lindberg, and accused the defense lawyer of intimidating the witnesses and 
trying to make out that they were liars.
 
12. In reality, the opposite was the truth. Defense witnesses were 
intimidated by the braying of the prosecutor or were branded as false. It 
happened that defense witnesses were threatened and beaten by foreign 
former prisoners so that the former had no more interest in appearing for 
the defense. They were afraid that they too would be accused of something, 
which the foreign prisoners were quite capable of, as they hated everything 
German and were out for revenge.
 

Perats statement is cited on Pages 258 to 263 in Innocent at Dachau by 
Joseph Halow.]

INNOCENT AT DACHAU is available from:-
 
The Institute of Historical Review PO Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 USA.
  
PS more to follow.



Jeff
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            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 11 16:35:22 PDT 1995
Article: 30884 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.mindlink.net!agate!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!simtel!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: RASSINIER EXPOSES FORGERY AT NUREMBERG
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 19:03:58 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 99
Message-ID: <804384130wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
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At Nuremberg, the Prosecution and the Judges got sensational results by this 
method. Notice this curious document P.S. 3319 (N.M.T. XXXII, pp. 159-92) 
which Mr. Raul Hilberg cites and comments upon (1961 pp. 502-709). In 
question is the organization, by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the 
Third Reich, of an anti-Jewish congress at Krummhubel on April 3 and 4, 
1944, with all the representatives at foreign posts participating. In 27 
pages a certain Ludwig Kohlhammer, Landesgnsppenleiter, reports very exactly 
on the number of participants - 31 persons - and their names and what each 
one said.

Now, this congress never took place. This is how the matter was presented to 
the Nuremberg Tribunal:

March 27, 1946, [Adolf] von Steengracht (Secretary of State, Foreign 
Affairs, Third Reich) is interrogated by Colonel Philimore deputy 
prosecutor-general for the English, who asks him:
"I would now like to bring up the question of the Jews. You told us 
yesterday that you yourself and Mr. Ribbentrop had prevented the anti-Jewish 
Congress of 1944 from taking place. Is that true?

"Yes," answered von Steengracht. (T.X., p. 137.)

And this is what he stated the day before in reply to a question put by Dr. 
Horn, von Ribbentrop's counsel:

"Our liaison with Hitler informed us that the latter, informed by Bormann, 
had ordered Rosenberg's office to organize an anti-Semitic congress. 
Ribbentrop did not want to believe it, but after having had a conversation 
with the liaison agent, he had to believe it. Since this decision made it 
irnpossible for us to prevent the congress through official channels, we 
tried to prevent it with a policy of hesitation, delay and obstruction And, 
although the order had been issued in the spring of 1944, and the war was 
still not over in April 1945, the congress never took place." (T.X., p. 
125.)

On April 2, 1946, von Ribbentrop is interrogated by Mr. Edgar Faure, who at 
the time was  deputy prosecutor-general for France, and who later was to 
become President of Council in France:
-
Mr. Edgar Faure (to Ribbentrop): "During the examination of your witness 
Steengracht, the English prosecutor brought forth document P.S. 3319, which 
has the English No. G.B. 287. I would like to refer to this document just 
for one question: In this document appear the minutes of a congress, of a 
gathering at which were present all the reporters on Jewish matters in the 
various diplomatic missions in Europe. This congress was held at Krummhubel 
on April 3 and 4, 1944. It had been organized by Schleier.  That was read 
the other day. You knew about this congress, I suppose?"

von Ribbentrop: "No, I am hearing about it for the first time. What was that 
congress? I have not even heard that such a congress took place. What sort 
of a congress was it?"

Mr. Faure: The document has been filed with the Tribunal and I simply want 
to ask you one question. You have testified that you did not know about this 
gathering at which were present thirty one persons, almost all of them 
diplomatic personnel. I point out to you that during this reunion Counsellor 
of Embassy von Thadden made a declaration which was reported
in the following terms: 

'The orator is showing why the Zionist solution of Palestine and other 
similar solutions should be rejected, and why there are grounds for the 
deportation of the Jews to the eastern territories.'

I suggest that this declaration made by a Counsellor of Embassy before 
thirty one persons in your department represented your own thesis on the 
subject."

von Ribbentrop: "Yes, but I do not know at all what you are trying to say. 
Will you please put the document at my disposal so that I may answer?"

Mr Faure. "I have no intention of showing you this document .... (T.X., p. 
420)."

THAT WAS THE PROOF OF FORGERY. It was also a typical breach Of the Rule of 
Procedure No. 2 of the Tribunal itself which provided that "all the 
documents appended to the Indictment shall be put at the disposition of the 
defendants not less than 30 days before the trials" (T.I., p. 21). This 
matter was never spoken of again. If one looks in the Index of Names (T., 
24) for information on landesgruppenleiter Ludwig Kohlhammer, he is not 
listed. But, Document P.S. 3319 was admitted into evidence.


[ pages 231-233 The Holocaust Story and the Lies of Ulysses by Paul 
Rassinier.]

Available from :-
The Institute of Historical Review PO Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 USA.
 
-- 

Jeff
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            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 11 16:35:25 PDT 1995
Article: 30885 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.mindlink.net!agate!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!simtel!news.sprintlink.net!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: GASSINGS  - THATS ONLY A FIGURE OF SPEECH
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 19:37:26 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 54
Message-ID: <423926246wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
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II. Abbe Jean-Paul Renard

Deported with registration number 39,727, Abbe Jean-Paul Renard preceded 
Frere Birin and myself by several weeks to Buchenwald; it was Dora [a 
sub-camp of Buchenwald] where we met him again. He published a collection of 
poems inspired by a sometimes moving mysticism with the title Chaines et 
Lumieres. These poems consist of a series of spiritual reactions rather than 
any attempt at objective testimony. One of them, nevertheless, enumerates 
some facts: J'ai vu, j'ai vu, et jai vecu . . . Frere Birin published it in 
an appendix to his own work, which has been discussed in the first section 
of this chapter. 
One of the poems reads:

"I saw going into the showers thousands and thousands of persons over whom 
poured out, instead of liquid, asphyxiating gases. I saw those who were 
unfit for work injected in the heart."

Actually, Abbe  Jean-Paul Renard saw nothing of the kind,  because gas 
chambers did not exist either at Buchenwald, or at Dora. As for the 
injections, it was not done the time he went through there. When I pointed 
that fact out to him at the beginning of 1947, he answered, Right,  that's 
only a figure of speech . . . and since those things existed somewhere, it 
is of no importance."
I found his reasoning delightful. At the moment I did not dare to retort 
that the Battle of Fontenoy was also a historical reality, but that was no 
reason for saying, even as a figure of speech, that he had been present. Nor 
did I say that , if twenty eight thousand survivors of the Nazi camps had 
claimed that they had been present at all of the horrors set forth by all of 
the testimonies, the camps would assume, in the eyes of history quite a 
different image than if each survivor had confined himself to telling only 
what he had actually seen. Nor did I mention that it was in our interest 
that not one of us should be guilty of lying or exaggeration.

Note: The above was written by Professor Paul Rassinier, the father of 
revisionism. He, as a resistant to the German occupation of France was 
arrested, and sent to Buchenwald concentration camp. 


[ pages 129-130 The Holocaust Story and the Lies of Ulysses by Paul 
Rassinier.]

Available from :-
The Institute of Historical Review PO Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 USA.

-- 

Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 11 16:35:28 PDT 1995
Article: 30886 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.mindlink.net!agate!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!simtel!news.sprintlink.net!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: THIS, TOO, WAS NEVER DONE AT DORA
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 20:29:45 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <341258150wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
Reply-To: jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-Broken-Date: Thursday, Aug 10, 1995 20.29.45
X-Newsreader: Newswin Alpha 0.7

Note: The following was written by Paul Rassinier the "father" of revisionism. As a resistant to the German occupation of France he had been arrested, and deported to Buchenwald concentration camp, where his health was broken. 
This french socialist, pacifist, and highly decorated member of the 
resistance would not bear false witness against his captors by exaggerating 
their crimes. Neither could Rassinier keep silent about the lies of fellow 
survivors who fabricated gas chambers and other atrocity stories in the 
fevered postwar atmosphere. 

1. Frere Birin

Frere Birin whose real name is Alfred Untereiner, published a Chronological 
account of his experiences at Buchenwald and Dora entitled 16 mois de bagne 
 (Reims: Matot-Braine 1946)
In the Prologue, he relates the circumstances that led to his arrest and 
deportation. He was arrested in December, 1943, was deported to Buchenwald 
on January 17, 1944  and was transferred to Dora [a sub-camp] the following 
March 13th . We were in the same deportation convoy and in the same 
transport from Buchenwald to Dora. Our registration numbers were also close 
together 43,642 for him, and 44,364 for me. 
We were liberated together........


On the instigation [says  Frere Birin in his book on page 77] of the 
notorious Oberscharfurhrer Sanders, SS, wiht whom I had something to do, 
other methods of execution were used for the saboteurs.
The unfortunates were made to dig narrow ditches, in which their comrades 
were forced to bury them up to the neck. 
They were left for a cetain length of time. After that an SS. with a long 
handled axe cut off their heads.

But the sadism of some of the SS led them to discover an even more cruel 
death. They ordered other prisoners to pour barrow loads of sand over their 
poor heads. I am still haunted by the looks etc.....


This, too, was never done at Dora. But the story was told to me in almost 
the same words, in that camp, by prisoners who had been transfered there 
>from  other camps and who all claimed to have been present at the scene; 
Mauthausen, Birkenau, Flossenburg, Neuengame, etc.....



[ page 126 The Holocaust Story and the Lies of Ulysses by Paul Rassinier.]

Available from :-
The Institute of Historical Review PO Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 USA.

-- 

Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------




From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 11 16:35:31 PDT 1995
Article: 30887 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.mindlink.net!agate!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!simtel!news.sprintlink.net!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: ORPHAN DOCUMENTS AND HIMMLERS DIARY
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 20:50:54 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <461436510wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
Reply-To: jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
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X-Broken-Date: Thursday, Aug 10, 1995 20.50.54
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Pearson [prosecuter at the Zundel trial] mentioned a report number 51 dated 
December 1, 1942, which mentioned 363,211 Soviet Jews executed over the past 
three months as a "partisan accomplices and suspects."
I can only repeat what I said previously,  said [David] Irving, that this 
was such an extraordinary document, that the figure was so unusual, that it 
is the kind of thing which makes one raise one's eyebrows and question 
further...[O]ne would look for a reference to this document in perhaps the 
War Diary of the German High Command or in some other collateral source 
where you would find the same figures turning up quoted. It would be 
sufficient to make me mistrustfull of the document because it is such an 
extraordinary figure, and...inserted there almost as an afterthought, a 
figure that is 20 or 30 times as large as any other figure on the page."
You asked for a collateral source, said Pearson, but who else [but the 
Security Police] is going to be around [behind the battle lines] to report 
on those things?"
Presumably, said Irving, we British would have intercepted it because we 
were reading the German SS code at that time...That is one example."
"This document is very much an orphan," said Irving. It is all by itself, 
without parents....As a historian, I have to [ask] why, suddenly, this 
colossal figure was inserted there in this report when all the other reports 
of that series contained no such figure. I want to know. It raises questions 
in my head and I'm uncomfortable with it.
"Who is this report going to?" asked Pearson.
To Himmler, said Irving. "Himmler's diary is unfortunately in the hands of 
the Israelis. It is a point worth mentioning that the Israeli government 
would not allow any historians to make use of Heinrich Himmler's private 
diary. If Heinrich Himnler's private diary contained evidence that there had 
been a Holocaust, such as defined by you, or that your interpretation of 
these documents is correct, then I'm sure the Israelis would have been the 
first to release the diary and make it available, but they don't."
Pearson: Isn't that a bit of speculation, sir?
No, said Irving, "I  think it is a very reasonable assumption......".

[Pages 427-8 From the The Holocaust on Trial , The case of Ernst Zundel by 
Robert Lenski.

The Holocaust on Trial is available from:-
The Institute of Historical Review PO Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 USA.

-- 

Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------




From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 11 16:35:35 PDT 1995
Article: 30888 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.mindlink.net!agate!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!simtel!news.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Schwarzhuber Testifies About Gassing in Ravensbrueck
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 09:17:22 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 77
Message-ID: <79263086wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
Reply-To: jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: stumpy.demon.co.uk
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X-Newsreader: Newswin Alpha 0.7

In article: <9507151329.AA01058@lems24.lems.brown.edu>  dk@lems.brown.edu 
> (Daniel Keren) writes:
> SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Johann Schwarzhuber testifies about gassing
> in the Ravensbrueck concentration camp
> [Quoted in "Nazi Mass Murder: A Documentary History of the
> Use of Poison Gas", edited by E. Kogon, H. Langbein, and
> A. Rueckerl, Yale University Press, 1993, p. 187]
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> "At the end of February 1945 I was called with Dr. Trommer to the
> office of the camp commandant, Sturmbannfuehrer Suhren. Suhren
> informed us that he had received an order from Reichsfuehrer Himmler
> to liquidate all the women who were sick or unable to walk. Before
> giving us this information, he asked us how many sick women there 
> were in the camp. I explained to the commandant that I had been glad to
> leave Auschwitz and would not like to repeat that experience. He then 
> told me that Sturmbannfuehrer Sauer, deputy to the camp commandant, had 
> been put in charge of the execution.
> I witnessed a gassing. A hundred and fifty women, all at once, were
> pushed into the gas chamber. Hauptscharfuehrer Moll ordered the women
> to undress and told them that a delousing was going to take place. They 
> were then pushed into the chamber, and the door was bolted. A male 
> prisoner, wearing a gas mask, climbed up onto the roof and, through 
> an opening which he closed again immediately afterward, threw a can of 
> gas into the room. I heard groans and moans. After two or three minutes, 
> there was silence in the chamber."
 

[Mark] Weber used this opportunity to read from the 1948 Mueller document: 
"The Allied investigation commissions have up to now ascertained that in the 
following concentration camps no humans were killed by poison 
gas...Bergen-Belsen, Buchenwald, Dachau, Flossenberg, Gross-Rosen, 
Mauthausen and its adjacent camps, Natzweiler, Nordhausen, Niederhagen, 
Ravensbruck, Sachsenhausen, Stutthof, Theresienstadt....In these cases, it 
can be proven that confessions were extorted by torture and the eye-witness 
accounts were false."
Weber went on to say, "The publication of this document caused a sensation 
in Austria recently, but [its authenticity] has not been called into 
question." Emil Lachout, the official who had countersigned it in 1948 and 
recently made it public, has only been criticised for making public what is 
an embarrassing document."


[Page 196 From the "The Holocaust on Trial" , The case of Ernst Zundel by 
Robert Lenski.

The Holocaust on Trial is available from:-
The Institute of Historical Review PO Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 USA.


"The Allied investigation commissions have up to now ascertained that in the 
following concentration camps no humans were killed by poison 
gas...Bergen-Belsen, Buchenwald, Dachau, Flossenberg, Gross-Rosen, 
Mauthausen and its adjacent camps, Natzweiler, Nordhausen, Niederhagen, 
Ravensbruck, Sachsenhausen, Stutthof, Theresienstadt....In these cases, it 
can be proven that confessions were extorted by torture and the eye-witness 
accounts were false."

Question:

If the confessions to "gassings" in the Allied zone were "extorted by 
torture", were the confessions to "gassings" in the Soviet given 
completely voluntarily? 





-- 

Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 11 16:35:39 PDT 1995
Article: 30889 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.mindlink.net!agate!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: 2) CONFESSIONS OBTAINED BY TORTURE
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 09:39:41 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 154
Message-ID: <670349586wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <9508072035.AA12102@lems24.lems.brown.edu>
Reply-To: jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-Broken-Date: Friday, Aug 11, 1995 09.39.41
X-Newsreader: Newswin Alpha 0.7

In article: <9508072035.AA12102@lems24.lems.brown.edu>  dk@lems.brown.edu 
(Daniel Keren) writes:
> 
> Affidavit of SS member Alois Hoellriegl, a guard in Mauthausen
> [Quoted in "Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression" - Washington, U.S Govt. 
> Print.  Off., 1946, Vol. VIII, p. 630]
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> Executions were carried out almost daily at Mauthausen. In the 
> years preceding 1942 they were carried out by firing squads and
> the bodies were burned in the camp incinerator which operated
> almost daily. SS-guards made up the firing squads and were detailed
> for the work in a routine manner the same as for other work details.
> Victims executed by a firing squad were always shot singly by six
> men using rifles. The number of executions varied daily. Sometimes 
> they included persons brought by the Gestapo who were executed
> immediately.
> 
> In 1942 a gas chamber resembling a shower room was built next to
> the incinerator. Gas executions were carried out in the gas chamber
> approximately three times a week and the bodies were burned in the
> adjoining incinerator. From my guard post I could hear the sound of
> the victims pounding on the door when the gas was turned on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Testimony of Albert Tiefenbacher, political prisoner in Mauthausen
> [Quoted in "Trial of the Major War Criminals Before the
> International Military Tribunal", Vol. XXXIII, p. 226]
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> Q. Did you hear Kaltenbrunner say anything to Ziereis?
> 
> A. No, I was never so close to him. The carriers of the dead had to
>    disappear when visitors were there, only the two firemen were
>    allowed to stay in the crematorium.
> 
> Q. Do you remember Wolfram?
> 
> A. He was a medic.
> 
> Q. What do you know about him?
> 
> A. Wolfram gave many of the deadly injections to people.
> 
> Q. Do you remember Eckermann?
> 
> A. I know a block-leader Ecker.
> 
> Q. Do you remember the gas chamber camouflaged as a bath house?
> 
> A. Yes, we always helped to carry the dead from the gas chamber.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Testimony of Johann Kanduth, political prisoner in Mauthausen
> [Quoted in "Trial of the Major War Criminals Before the
> International Military Tribunal", Vol. XXXIII]
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> p. 232:
> 
> Q. Describe your work.
> 
> A. At first my occupation consisted of removing the bodies, then
>    I served the heating and had to learn to put in the corpses,
>    then I had to stir up and take out the ashes. This was my occupation
>    during 4.5 years.
> 
>  .
>  .
>  .
> 
> p. 233:
> 
> Q. What kinds of execution preceded your cremation?
> 
> A. They were shot in the back of the neck. There were also women.
>    Some were killed in the gas chamber. Other were killed by
>    springes of gasoline or Efamedem, which were given by a certain
>    Klein Guenther.
> 
> p. 242:
> 
> Q. Do you remember the executions of the English and American
>    military personnel in the year 1945?
> 
> A. Yes.
> 
> Q. Tell us something about it.
> 
> A. The staff went downstairs, Ziereis, Bachmaier, Streitwieser,
>    Niedermayer led them. I do not remember if Altfuldich was
>    present too. Ohrenstein must know it. Schulz was always
>    present. Proksch and Rommel led them up from the bunker.
> 
> Q. Were you employed at the moment of the execution?
> 
> A. No.
> 
> Q. Do you know who was employed?
> 
> A. Ohrenstein, the only survivor. I came later. Hauptscharfuehrer
>    Roth fetched me when the execution was over. The 14 bodies of
>    the Americans lay separately.
> 
[Mark] Weber used this opportunity to read from the 1948 Mueller document: 
"The Allied investigation commissions have up to now ascertained that in the 
following concentration camps no humans were killed by poison 
gas...Bergen-Belsen, Buchenwald, Dachau, Flossenberg, Gross-Rosen, 
Mauthausen and its adjacent camps, Natzweiler, Nordhausen, Niederhagen, 
Ravensbruck, Sachsenhausen, Stutthof, Theresienstadt....In these cases, it 
can be proven that confessions were extorted by torture and the eye-witness 
accounts were false."
Weber went on to say, "The publication of this document caused a sensation 
in Austria recently, but [its authenticity] has not been called into 
question." Emil Lachout, the official who had countersigned it in 1948 and 
recently made it public, has only been criticised for making public what is 
an embarrassing document."


[Page 196 From the "The Holocaust on Trial" , The case of Ernst Zundel by 
Robert Lenski.

The Holocaust on Trial is available from:-
The Institute of Historical Review PO Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 USA.


"The Allied investigation commissions have up to now ascertained that in the 
following concentration camps no humans were killed by poison 
gas...Bergen-Belsen, Buchenwald, Dachau, Flossenberg, Gross-Rosen, 
Mauthausen and its adjacent camps, Natzweiler, Nordhausen, Niederhagen, 
Ravensbruck, Sachsenhausen, Stutthof, Theresienstadt....In these cases, it 
can be proven that confessions were extorted by torture and the eye-witness 
accounts were false."

Question:

If the confessions to "gassings" in the Allied zone were "extorted by 
torture", were the confessions to "gassings" in the Soviet given completely 
voluntarily? 




-- 

Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 11 16:35:42 PDT 1995
Article: 30890 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.mindlink.net!agate!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: 3) CONFESSIONS OBTAINED BY TORTURE
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 09:44:00 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 77
Message-ID: <295527560wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <9507151329.AA01058@lems24.lems.brown.edu>
Reply-To: jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-Broken-Date: Friday, Aug 11, 1995 09.44.00
X-Newsreader: Newswin Alpha 0.7

> In article: <9507151329.AA01058@lems24.lems.brown.edu>  dk@lems.brown.edu 
> (Daniel Keren) writes:
> SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Johann Schwarzhuber testifies about gassing
> in the Ravensbrueck concentration camp
> [Quoted in "Nazi Mass Murder: A Documentary History of the
> Use of Poison Gas", edited by E. Kogon, H. Langbein, and
> A. Rueckerl, Yale University Press, 1993, p. 187]
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> At the end of February 1945 I was called with Dr. Trommer to the
> office of the camp commandant, Sturmbannfuehrer Suhren. Suhren
> informed us that he had received an order from Reichsfuehrer Himmler
> to liquidate all the women who were sick or unable to walk. Before
> giving us this information, he asked us how many sick women there 
> were in the camp. I explained to the commandant that I had been glad to
> leave Auschwitz and would not like to repeat that experience. He then 
> told me that Sturmbannfuehrer Sauer, deputy to the camp commandant, had 
> been put in charge of the execution.
> I witnessed a gassing. A hundred and fifty women, all at once, were
> pushed into the gas chamber. Hauptscharfuehrer Moll ordered the women
> to undress and told them that a delousing was going to take place. They 
> were then pushed into the chamber, and the door was bolted. A male 
> prisoner, wearing a gas mask, climbed up onto the roof and, through 
> an opening which he closed again immediately afterward, threw a can of 
> gas into the room. I heard groans and moans. After two or three minutes, 
> there was silence in the chamber.
> 
[Mark] Weber used this opportunity to read from the 1948 Mueller document: 
"The Allied investigation commissions have up to now ascertained that in the 
following concentration camps no humans were killed by poison 
gas...Bergen-Belsen, Buchenwald, Dachau, Flossenberg, Gross-Rosen, 
Mauthausen and its adjacent camps, Natzweiler, Nordhausen, Niederhagen, 
Ravensbruck, Sachsenhausen, Stutthof, Theresienstadt....In these cases, it 
can be proven that confessions were extorted by torture and the eye-witness 
accounts were false."
Weber went on to say, "The publication of this document caused a sensation 
in Austria recently, but [its authenticity] has not been called into 
question." Emil Lachout, the official who had countersigned it in 1948 and 
recently made it public, has only been criticised for making public what is 
an embarrassing document."


[Page 196 From the "The Holocaust on Trial" , The case of Ernst Zundel by 
Robert Lenski.

The Holocaust on Trial is available from:-
The Institute of Historical Review PO Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 USA.


"The Allied investigation commissions have up to now ascertained that in the 
following concentration camps no humans were killed by poison 
gas...Bergen-Belsen, Buchenwald, Dachau, Flossenberg, Gross-Rosen, 
Mauthausen and its adjacent camps, Natzweiler, Nordhausen, Niederhagen, 
Ravensbruck, Sachsenhausen, Stutthof, Theresienstadt....In these cases, it 
can be proven that confessions were extorted by torture and the eye-witness 
accounts were false."

Question:

If the confessions to "gassings" in the Allied zone were "extorted by 
torture", were the confessions to "gassings" in the Soviet given completely 
voluntarily? 






-- 

Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 11 16:35:45 PDT 1995
Article: 30891 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.mindlink.net!agate!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!simtel!news.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: 1) CONFESSIONS EXORTED BY TORTURE
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 09:21:40 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <40463698wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <9507151329.AA01058@lems24.lems.brown.edu>
Reply-To: jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-Broken-Date: Friday, Aug 11, 1995 09.21.40
X-Newsreader: Newswin Alpha 0.7

[Mark] Weber used this opportunity to read from the 1948 Mueller document: 
"The Allied investigation commissions have up to now ascertained that in the 
following concentration camps no humans were killed by poison 
gas...Bergen-Belsen, Buchenwald, Dachau, Flossenberg, Gross-Rosen, 
Mauthausen and its adjacent camps, Natzweiler, Nordhausen, Niederhagen, 
Ravensbruck, Sachsenhausen, Stutthof, Theresienstadt....In these cases, it 
can be proven that confessions were extorted by torture and the eye-witness 
accounts were false."
Weber went on to say, "The publication of this document caused a sensation 
in Austria recently, but [its authenticity] has not been called into 
question." Emil Lachout, the official who had countersigned it in 1948 and 
recently made it public, has only been criticised for making public what is 
an embarrassing document."


[Page 196 From the "The Holocaust on Trial" , The case of Ernst Zundel by 
Robert Lenski.

The Holocaust on Trial is available from:-
The Institute of Historical Review PO Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 USA.


"The Allied investigation commissions have up to now ascertained that in the 
following concentration camps no humans were killed by poison 
gas...Bergen-Belsen, Buchenwald, Dachau, Flossenberg, Gross-Rosen, 
Mauthausen and its adjacent camps, Natzweiler, Nordhausen, Niederhagen, 
Ravensbruck, Sachsenhausen, Stutthof, Theresienstadt....In these cases, it 
can be proven that confessions were extorted by torture and the eye-witness 
accounts were false."

Question:

If the confessions to "gassings" in the Allied zone were "extorted by 
torture", were the confessions to "gassings" in the Soviet given completely 
voluntarily? 




-- 

Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 11 16:35:48 PDT 1995
Article: 30892 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.mindlink.net!agate!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: 4) CONFESSIONS OBTAINED BY TORTURE
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 09:46:47 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 72
Message-ID: <169461108wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <9508032329.AA01866@lems24.lems.brown.edu>
Reply-To: jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
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In article: <9508032329.AA01866@lems24.lems.brown.edu>  dk@lems.brown.edu 
(Daniel Keren) writes:
> 
> Dr. Theodor Friedrich Leidig, testifying about one of the first 
> gassings in Sachsenhausen, in which Soviet POW's were murdered
> [Quoted in "Nazi Mass Murder: A Documentary History of the
> Use of Poison Gas", edited by E. Kogon, H. Langbein, and
> A. Rueckerl, Yale University Press, 1993, p. 54]
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> I was told that the people who had climbed into the truck were
> Russians who would otherwise have had to be shot. They were looking
> for a different way of killing them. We then went to another place,
> where we met the truck again. It was near the crematory oven. I can
> still remember that one could see through a peephole or a small
> window into the inside of the truck, which was lit up. One could see
> that the people were dead.  The van was opened. Some bodies fell
> out; the others were unloaded by prisoners. Those of us who were
> chemists could ascertain that the bodies had that pinkish look which
> is typical of victims of carbon monoxide poisoning.
> 
> 
[Mark] Weber used this opportunity to read from the 1948 Mueller document: 
"The Allied investigation commissions have up to now ascertained that in the 
following concentration camps no humans were killed by poison 
gas...Bergen-Belsen, Buchenwald, Dachau, Flossenberg, Gross-Rosen, 
Mauthausen and its adjacent camps, Natzweiler, Nordhausen, Niederhagen, 
Ravensbruck, Sachsenhausen, Stutthof, Theresienstadt....In these cases, it 
can be proven that confessions were extorted by torture and the eye-witness 
accounts were false."
Weber went on to say, "The publication of this document caused a sensation 
in Austria recently, but [its authenticity] has not been called into 
question." Emil Lachout, the official who had countersigned it in 1948 and 
recently made it public, has only been criticised for making public what is 
an embarrassing document."


[Page 196 From the "The Holocaust on Trial" , The case of Ernst Zundel by 
Robert Lenski.

The Holocaust on Trial is available from:-
The Institute of Historical Review PO Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 USA.


"The Allied investigation commissions have up to now ascertained that in the 
following concentration camps no humans were killed by poison 
gas...Bergen-Belsen, Buchenwald, Dachau, Flossenberg, Gross-Rosen, 
Mauthausen and its adjacent camps, Natzweiler, Nordhausen, Niederhagen, 
Ravensbruck, Sachsenhausen, Stutthof, Theresienstadt....In these cases, it 
can be proven that confessions were extorted by torture and the eye-witness 
accounts were false."

Question:

If the confessions to "gassings" in the Allied zone were "extorted by 
torture", were the confessions to "gassings" in the Soviet given completely 
voluntarily? 






-- 

Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 11 16:35:53 PDT 1995
Article: 30893 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.mindlink.net!agate!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!simtel!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Dachau Gas Chamber
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 09:23:13 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 96
Message-ID: <334977704wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <3veun8$epi@access2.digex.net> <807482052snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>  <807580843snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> 
Reply-To: jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-Broken-Date: Friday, Aug 11, 1995 09.23.13
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In article:   dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) 
writes:
> 
> Alexander Baron   wrote:
> # dkeren@world.std.com "Daniel Keren" writes:
> 
> ## According to the "Institute for Contemporary History" in
> ## Munich, gassings did take place there. And there's the 
> ## Rascher-Himmler letter which explicitly discusses gassing 
> ## in Dachau. I recall Reitlinger also states that gassings took
> ## place in Dachau, on a relatively small scale, but I don't
> ## have the book here to verify this.
> 
> # Well, I suggest you take this up with Professor Lipstadt 
> # because she says there were no gassings in Dachau either.
> 
> Yes, there is a difference of opinions about Dachau. As far
> as I know, and according to "Nazi Mass Murder", Dachau is
> the only camp in which there is such a difference of opinions.
> 
> I may ask Prof. Lipstadt about this, and post her answer 
> here. As far as I understand, when a historian says "there
> were no gassing in Dachau" he means "it has not been proven
> beyond doubt that gassings took place there". Had Rascher
> survived the war, we would surely know more. 
> 
> BUT - to the best of my knowledge, historians who do not
> think it has been proven beyond doubt that gassing took
> place in Dachau, all agree that a gas chamber was built 
> there (and is still there today), with the intent of gassing
> people in it. The Rascher-Himmler letter really makes this
> very clear.
> 
> 
[Mark] Weber used this opportunity to read from the 1948 Mueller document: 
"The Allied investigation commissions have up to now ascertained that in the 
following concentration camps no humans were killed by poison 
gas...Bergen-Belsen, Buchenwald, Dachau, Flossenberg, Gross-Rosen, 
Mauthausen and its adjacent camps, Natzweiler, Nordhausen, Niederhagen, 
Ravensbruck, Sachsenhausen, Stutthof, Theresienstadt....In these cases, it 
can be proven that confessions were extorted by torture and the eye-witness 
accounts were false."
Weber went on to say, "The publication of this document caused a sensation 
in Austria recently, but [its authenticity] has not been called into 
question." Emil Lachout, the official who had countersigned it in 1948 and 
recently made it public, has only been criticised for making public what is 
an embarrassing document."


[Page 196 From the "The Holocaust on Trial" , The case of Ernst Zundel by 
Robert Lenski.

The Holocaust on Trial is available from:-
The Institute of Historical Review PO Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 USA.


"The Allied investigation commissions have up to now ascertained that in the 
following concentration camps no humans were killed by poison 
gas...Bergen-Belsen, Buchenwald, Dachau, Flossenberg, Gross-Rosen, 
Mauthausen and its adjacent camps, Natzweiler, Nordhausen, Niederhagen, 
Ravensbruck, Sachsenhausen, Stutthof, Theresienstadt....In these cases, it 
can be proven that confessions were extorted by torture and the eye-witness 
accounts were false."

Question:

If the confessions to "gassings" in the Allied zone were "extorted by 
torture", were the confessions to "gassings" in the Soviet given completely 
voluntarily? 

















-- 

Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 11 16:35:56 PDT 1995
Article: 30894 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.mindlink.net!agate!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!simtel!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dr. Leidig Talks About a Gassing in Sachsenhausen'
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 09:24:12 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 68
Message-ID: <424151444wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <9508032329.AA01866@lems24.lems.brown.edu>
Reply-To: jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-Broken-Date: Friday, Aug 11, 1995 09.24.12
X-Newsreader: Newswin Alpha 0.7

In article: <9508032329.AA01866@lems24.lems.brown.edu>  dk@lems.brown.edu 
(Daniel Keren) writes:
> 
> Dr. Theodor Friedrich Leidig, testifying about one of the first 
> gassings in Sachsenhausen, in which Soviet POW's were murdered
> [Quoted in "Nazi Mass Murder: A Documentary History of the
> Use of Poison Gas", edited by E. Kogon, H. Langbein, and
> A. Rueckerl, Yale University Press, 1993, p. 54]
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> I was told that the people who had climbed into the truck were
> Russians who would otherwise have had to be shot. They were looking
> for a different way of killing them. We then went to another place,
> where we met the truck again. It was near the crematory oven. I can
> still remember that one could see through a peephole or a small
> window into the inside of the truck, which was lit up. One could see
> that the people were dead.  The van was opened. Some bodies fell
> out; the others were unloaded by prisoners. Those of us who were
> chemists could ascertain that the bodies had that pinkish look which
> is typical of victims of carbon monoxide poisoning.
> 
> 

[Mark] Weber used this opportunity to read from the 1948 Mueller document: 
"The Allied investigation commissions have up to now ascertained that in the 
following concentration camps no humans were killed by poison 
gas...Bergen-Belsen, Buchenwald, Dachau, Flossenberg, Gross-Rosen, 
Mauthausen and its adjacent camps, Natzweiler, Nordhausen, Niederhagen, 
Ravensbruck, Sachsenhausen, Stutthof, Theresienstadt....In these cases, it 
can be proven that confessions were extorted by torture and the eye-witness 
accounts were false."
Weber went on to say, "The publication of this document caused a sensation 
in Austria recently, but [its authenticity] has not been called into 
question." Emil Lachout, the official who had countersigned it in 1948 and 
recently made it public, has only been criticised for making public what is 
an embarrassing document."


[Page 196 From the "The Holocaust on Trial" , The case of Ernst Zundel by 
Robert Lenski.

The Holocaust on Trial is available from:-
The Institute of Historical Review PO Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 USA.


"The Allied investigation commissions have up to now ascertained that in the 
following concentration camps no humans were killed by poison 
gas...Bergen-Belsen, Buchenwald, Dachau, Flossenberg, Gross-Rosen, 
Mauthausen and its adjacent camps, Natzweiler, Nordhausen, Niederhagen, 
Ravensbruck, Sachsenhausen, Stutthof, Theresienstadt....In these cases, it 
can be proven that confessions were extorted by torture and the eye-witness 
accounts were false."

Question:

If the confessions to "gassings" in the Allied zone were "extorted by 
torture", were the confessions to "gassings" in the Soviet given completely 
voluntarily? 

-- 

Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 11 16:36:00 PDT 1995
Article: 30895 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.mindlink.net!agate!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!simtel!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Death at Mauthausen
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 09:27:01 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 160
Message-ID: <855292028wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <9508072035.AA12102@lems24.lems.brown.edu>
Reply-To: jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-Broken-Date: Friday, Aug 11, 1995 09.27.01
X-Newsreader: Newswin Alpha 0.7

In article: <9508072035.AA12102@lems24.lems.brown.edu>  dk@lems.brown.edu 
(Daniel Keren) writes:
> 
> Affidavit of SS member Alois Hoellriegl, a guard in Mauthausen
> [Quoted in "Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression" - Washington, U.S Govt. 
> Print.  Off., 1946, Vol. VIII, p. 630]
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> Executions were carried out almost daily at Mauthausen. In the 
> years preceding 1942 they were carried out by firing squads and
> the bodies were burned in the camp incinerator which operated
> almost daily. SS-guards made up the firing squads and were detailed
> for the work in a routine manner the same as for other work details.
> Victims executed by a firing squad were always shot singly by six
> men using rifles. The number of executions varied daily. Sometimes 
> they included persons brought by the Gestapo who were executed
> immediately.
> 
> In 1942 a gas chamber resembling a shower room was built next to
> the incinerator. Gas executions were carried out in the gas chamber
> approximately three times a week and the bodies were burned in the
> adjoining incinerator. From my guard post I could hear the sound of
> the victims pounding on the door when the gas was turned on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Testimony of Albert Tiefenbacher, political prisoner in Mauthausen
> [Quoted in "Trial of the Major War Criminals Before the
> International Military Tribunal", Vol. XXXIII, p. 226]
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> Q. Did you hear Kaltenbrunner say anything to Ziereis?
> 
> A. No, I was never so close to him. The carriers of the dead had to
>    disappear when visitors were there, only the two firemen were
>    allowed to stay in the crematorium.
> 
> Q. Do you remember Wolfram?
> 
> A. He was a medic.
> 
> Q. What do you know about him?
> 
> A. Wolfram gave many of the deadly injections to people.
> 
> Q. Do you remember Eckermann?
> 
> A. I know a block-leader Ecker.
> 
> Q. Do you remember the gas chamber camouflaged as a bath house?
> 
> A. Yes, we always helped to carry the dead from the gas chamber.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Testimony of Johann Kanduth, political prisoner in Mauthausen
> [Quoted in "Trial of the Major War Criminals Before the
> International Military Tribunal", Vol. XXXIII]
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> p. 232:
> 
> Q. Describe your work.
> 
> A. At first my occupation consisted of removing the bodies, then
>    I served the heating and had to learn to put in the corpses,
>    then I had to stir up and take out the ashes. This was my occupation
>    during 4.5 years.
> 
>  .
>  .
>  .
> 
> p. 233:
> 
> Q. What kinds of execution preceded your cremation?
> 
> A. They were shot in the back of the neck. There were also women.
>    Some were killed in the gas chamber. Other were killed by
>    springes of gasoline or Efamedem, which were given by a certain
>    Klein Guenther.
> 
>  .
>  .
>  .
> 
> p. 242:
> 
> Q. Do you remember the executions of the English and American
>    military personnel in the year 1945?
> 
> A. Yes.
> 
> Q. Tell us something about it.
> 
> A. The staff went downstairs, Ziereis, Bachmaier, Streitwieser,
>    Niedermayer led them. I do not remember if Altfuldich was
>    present too. Ohrenstein must know it. Schulz was always
>    present. Proksch and Rommel led them up from the bunker.
> 
> Q. Were you employed at the moment of the execution?
> 
> A. No.
> 
> Q. Do you know who was employed?
> 
> A. Ohrenstein, the only survivor. I came later. Hauptscharfuehrer
>    Roth fetched me when the execution was over. The 14 bodies of
>    the Americans lay separately.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

[Mark] Weber used this opportunity to read from the 1948 Mueller document: 
"The Allied investigation commissions have up to now ascertained that in the 
following concentration camps no humans were killed by poison 
gas...Bergen-Belsen, Buchenwald, Dachau, Flossenberg, Gross-Rosen, 
Mauthausen and its adjacent camps, Natzweiler, Nordhausen, Niederhagen, 
Ravensbruck, Sachsenhausen, Stutthof, Theresienstadt....In these cases, it 
can be proven that confessions were extorted by torture and the eye-witness 
accounts were false."
Weber went on to say, "The publication of this document caused a sensation 
in Austria recently, but [its authenticity] has not been called into 
question." Emil Lachout, the official who had countersigned it in 1948 and 
recently made it public, has only been criticised for making public what is 
an embarrassing document."


[Page 196 From the "The Holocaust on Trial" , The case of Ernst Zundel by 
Robert Lenski.

The Holocaust on Trial is available from:-
The Institute of Historical Review PO Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 USA.


"The Allied investigation commissions have up to now ascertained that in the 
following concentration camps no humans were killed by poison 
gas...Bergen-Belsen, Buchenwald, Dachau, Flossenberg, Gross-Rosen, 
Mauthausen and its adjacent camps, Natzweiler, Nordhausen, Niederhagen, 
Ravensbruck, Sachsenhausen, Stutthof, Theresienstadt....In these cases, it 
can be proven that confessions were extorted by torture and the eye-witness 
accounts were false."

Question:

If the confessions to "gassings" in the Allied zone were "extorted by 
torture", were the confessions to "gassings" in the Soviet given completely 
voluntarily? 

-- 

Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 11 16:36:04 PDT 1995
Article: 30896 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.mindlink.net!agate!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: AMERICANS TORTURE GERMANS TO EXTORT "CONFESSIONS"
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 09:50:31 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 81
Message-ID: <89490617wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <647911513wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
Reply-To: jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-Broken-Date: Friday, Aug 11, 1995 09.50.31
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         AMERICANS TORTURE GERMANS TO EXTORT "CONFESSIONS".

By Fred Redman

TODAY I am able to tell you the full story, revealed in Washington, of the 
American war trials scandal. It is an ugly story of barbarous tortures 
inflicted in the name of Allied justice. 
It is time the British people knew all the facts. Little has appeared in our 
press until today.
The charge is that American soldiers, building evidence against Germans 
accused of war crimes, have behaved with the same sadistic cruelty as the 
beasts who terrorised Europe when it was under Nazi domination.

The truth has come out through the persistence of an American lawyer and the 
frank horror of an American Judge who refuses to be muzzled.
Judge Edward Van Roden member of a US Army Commission of Inquiry tells how 
burning matches were forced under the fingernails of a prisoner by American 
investigators to extort a confession. For months, he says, men were kept in 
solitary confinement on near-starvation rations. 
And they were beaten up and savagely kicked until strong men were redeuced 
to broken wrecks ready to mumble any admission demanded by their 
prosecutors. 

The war department have shown the Judges personal report only to General 
Lucius Clay, their military commander in Germany. Washington suspects the 
reason was that it was too shocking for public disclosure. 

....Commission sent to Germany to investigate was was even more candid.
"All but two of the Germans in the 139 cases we investigated, had been 
kicked in the testicles beyond repair." he charged.
"this was standard operating procedure with our American investigators.
"They would put a black hood over the accused's head and then punch him in 
the face with brass knuckles."
US Army prosecution teams had he said had posed as priests to hear 
confessions and give absolution.

At mock trials men who refused to confess were confronted by a crucifix
and burning candles. Those sham courts, attended by men in US Army uniform, 
passed sham death sentences. Then the accused were told: "Sign this 
confession and we get you acquitted." 

[The Sunday Pictorial Jan 23rd 1949 as cited on p82 in "Holocaust Denial; 
New Nazi Lie or New Inquisition" by Alexander Baron"]
Email A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk for details. ]


"All but two of the Germans in the 139 cases we investigated, had been 
kicked in the testicles beyond repair."

"The change [of public opinion] followed the notorious case of the American 
Dachau Tribunal. This tribunal which was abolished in December 1947,  
had tried 1,500 Germans and condemned 420 of them to death. In autumn of 
that year Dachau justicc became the subject of a commission of investigation 
under Judge Gordon Simpson of the Texas Supreme Court. The commission 
recommended that 29 men who were still under sentence ot death should be 
reprieved, and it declared that statements had be obtained both from 
defendents and witnesses by highly questionable means."

[The final solution [1968] by G. Reitlinger. page 548]

Question: 

The 'Americans' tortured defendents. Shouldn't it call into question the 
validity of confessions given in previous trials?

Question:

If the Americans tortured defendents on such a scale, what did the British, 
and the Communists do?

    

Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 11 16:36:08 PDT 1995
Article: 30897 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.mindlink.net!agate!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: QUESTIONS FOR REVISIONISTS
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 09:48:46 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 77
Message-ID: <249793643wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: 
Reply-To: jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-Broken-Date: Friday, Aug 11, 1995 09.48.46
X-Newsreader: Newswin Alpha 0.7

In article:   ah787@FreeNet.Carleton.CA 
(Bill Stuart) writes:
> 
> 1) Realistically speaking, besides mass murder, what explanation is there
> for the miles of filmed footage of bodies being buried, burned, and/or
> carted off to other locations?
> 
> 2) Realistically speaking, what possible use did the germans have for
> zyklon-b? It's no good as a de-louser for humans. Cyanide is totally
> ineffective against many bacteria and insects. To "delouse" with cyanide,
> the object has to be exposed to cyanide for 72 hours. 
> 
> 3) Despite hitler's proclamation of the "final solution", the various
> incidents of anti-semitism, the disappearance of many jews during a war,
> and hundreds of other pointers in the direction of mass murder, why do you
> find it so hard to imagine that a mass murder did take place?
> 
> --
> You will die an agonizing death, alone and peniless.
> 	-Jojo's psychotic alliance
> 
> 
> 
[Mark] Weber used this opportunity to read from the 1948 Mueller document: 
"The Allied investigation commissions have up to now ascertained that in the 
following concentration camps no humans were killed by poison 
gas...Bergen-Belsen, Buchenwald, Dachau, Flossenberg, Gross-Rosen, 
Mauthausen and its adjacent camps, Natzweiler, Nordhausen, Niederhagen, 
Ravensbruck, Sachsenhausen, Stutthof, Theresienstadt....In these cases, it 
can be proven that confessions were extorted by torture and the eye-witness 
accounts were false."
Weber went on to say, "The publication of this document caused a sensation 
in Austria recently, but [its authenticity] has not been called into 
question." Emil Lachout, the official who had countersigned it in 1948 and 
recently made it public, has only been criticised for making public what is 
an embarrassing document."


[Page 196 From the "The Holocaust on Trial" , The case of Ernst Zundel by 
Robert Lenski.

The Holocaust on Trial is available from:-
The Institute of Historical Review PO Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 USA.


"The Allied investigation commissions have up to now ascertained that in the 
following concentration camps no humans were killed by poison 
gas...Bergen-Belsen, Buchenwald, Dachau, Flossenberg, Gross-Rosen, 
Mauthausen and its adjacent camps, Natzweiler, Nordhausen, Niederhagen, 
Ravensbruck, Sachsenhausen, Stutthof, Theresienstadt....In these cases, it 
can be proven that confessions were extorted by torture and the eye-witness 
accounts were false."

Question:

If the confessions to "gassings" in the Allied zone were "extorted by 
torture", were the confessions to "gassings" in the Soviet given completely 
voluntarily? 









-- 

Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 11 16:36:11 PDT 1995
Article: 30898 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.mindlink.net!agate!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: NO GASSINGS IN WESTERN ZONE SAY ALLIES
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 10:30:26 GMT
Organization: None
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[Mark] Weber used this opportunity to read from the 1948 Mueller document: 
The Allied investigation commissions have up to now ascertained that in the 
following concentration camps no humans were killed by poison 
gas...Bergen-Belsen, Buchenwald, Dachau, Flossenberg, Gross-Rosen, 
Mauthausen and its adjacent camps, Natzweiler, Nordhausen, Niederhagen, 
Ravensbruck, Sachsenhausen, Stutthof, Theresienstadt....In these cases, it 
can be proven that confessions were extorted by torture and the eye-witness 
accounts were false."
Weber went on to say, The publication of this document caused a sensation 
in Austria recently, but [its authenticity] has not been called into 
question." Emil Lachout, the official who had countersigned it in 1948 and 
recently made it public, has only been criticised for making public what is 
an embarrassing document."

The next defense witness [at the Zundel trial] was Emil Lachout, a tall, 
well-spoken Austrian who testified with the aid of the court interpreter. 
Lachout brought with him a copy of a document,  dated October 1, 1948, of 
the Military Police Service,  a postwar Austrian force which worked with the 
four Occupying governments. This document, a circular letter, stated that 
careful Allied investigations had determined that no gassings ever occurred 
in the 13 German and Austrian concentration camps listed, and that former 
internees who persisted in saying that they had should be charged with 
giving false testimony
Lachout explained that a function of the Military police Service was to 
accompany the occupation forces when they arrested and interrogated Austrian 
and other civilians. This was necessary due to past instances of torture and 
other abuse, and the Allied interest in showing justice being done.
When Pearson [prosecution counsel] questioned the relevance of Lachouts 
testimony, Christie [defence lawyer] explained that, until 1960 or so, there 
were widespread allegations of gassings at Dachau and other concentration 
camps outside of Poland. The Harwood pamphlet [Did six million really die?] 
had noted as much. Yet the investigations of which Lachout was a part had 
resolved the question as early as 1948.
Lachout explained that his personal involvement in the investigations 
extended only to Mauthausen and its satellite camps, in Austria.
Why, asked Christie, had the Allied War Crimes Commission, which conducted 
the investigations, been formed?
Because, said Lachout, instances of torture and of false testimony had been 
occurring, "and the Allies wanted to prevent further such things from 
happening."
The Austrian observers on the Commission were (then) Lt. Lachout and a Major 
Muller. Lachout witnessed Muller's signature on the document in 1948, and 
restored it to public attention in 1987, when he was called as a witness at 
two trials in Vienna.
Was anyone charged with making false claims [because of the Muller-Lachout 
document]?" asked Christie.
"No," said Lachout. Because as soon as [the former internees concerned] 
heard about it, they withdrew their statements.
Christie: What happened to the War Crimes Commission itself?
       Lachout: A year later, it ceased to exist and then it met again in 
individual cases.   

[Pages 196 & 274-5   From the "The Holocaust on Trial" ,The case of Ernst 
Zundel by Robert Lenski.

The Holocaust on Trial is available from:-
The Institute of Historical Review PO Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 USA.

Jeff
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            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 11 16:36:14 PDT 1995
Article: 30899 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.mindlink.net!agate!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: CHANGING THE PLAN
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 11:41:05 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 33
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Christie then questioned [Professor Robert] Faurisson about two plans which 
show the entire Birkenau camp. One came from a book published in Warsaw in 
1980, and agreed, said the witness, with all the other plans known to him. 
The second came from The Auschwitz Album, a popular book first published in 
1981 or 1982 that contains nearly 200 photos of the camp. The latter plan, 
said Faurisson, contains a "trick."
He then explained himself. Exterminationists say that the women and children 
selected for gassing at Auschwitz were led to the buildings called 
Crematoria II and III. Faurisson believes they were led to the camp's large 
bath/sauna complex by way of a road which passed between Crematoria II and 
III. aThe trick," explained Faurisson, is that in the map in The Auschwitz 
Album, that they cut the road going to the big sauna," making it look like 
it dead-ends at the crematoria.
 "There are other tricks" in the same book, said Faurisson. For example, the 
well-known soccer field for internees beside Crematoria II and III is not 
designated as such because readers would find it hard to believe that 
gassings and athletics were conducted side-by-side.	
 
[Pages 303   From the "The Holocaust on Trial", The case of Ernst Zundel by 
Robert Lenski.]

The Holocaust on Trial is available from:-
The Institute of Historical Review PO Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 USA.
-- 

Jeff
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            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 11 16:36:17 PDT 1995
Article: 30900 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.mindlink.net!agate!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: CREMATORIA IS NOW CODEWORD FOR "INCINERATORS"
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 11:26:18 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 96
Message-ID: <479210544wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References:    <875291222wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> <881071382wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> <3vtlg5$kig@rover.ucs.ualberta.ca>
Reply-To: jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
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> >dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
> >> There's BTW a patent, submitted by the very same Topf firm
> >> in 1951, which gives a cremation time of 30-45 minutes
> >> per corpse. It is not the same type of furnace as the
> >> one used in Birkenau, but this figure obviously means
> >> a lot, assuming the science of cremation has not made
> >> a quantum leap right after the war. Once more, the
> >> revisionazis have failed to do their homework."
> 

Jeff  wrote:
> >So let's use Karen's figures to work out the crematory rates for 
> >Birkenau, after all, he knows better than Ivan Lagace, an "intellectual 
> >zero" who was granted Expert status on Cremation at the Zundel trial, 
> 
> >["Lagace estimated that the 46 retorts at Birkenau could handle about 184 
> >bodies daily, or four apiece." (Holocaust on Trial Page 239)]
> 

In article: <3vtlg5$kig@rover.ucs.ualberta.ca>  jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca 
(John Morris) writes:

> Operators of funerary crematoria are very concerned that the bodies
> are burned thoroughly and that the ashes are not mixed with the ashes
> from other bodies. The four bodies a day figure allows for heating up
> and cooling down of the retorts and for clean up and funeral services.
> None of these considerations concerned the SS who only had it in mind
> to incinerate as many bodies as possible in as short a time as
> possible. Although at Kulmhof, Oberwachtmeister Bruno Israel's
> testimony on burning techniques might be applicable to Auschwitz, too:
> "The bodies burned quickly, and new ones were continually being thrown
> in" (cited in Kogon, et al., _Nazi Mass Murder_, Yale UP, 1993).

> It might help clarify the situation if we called the crematorias
> "incinerators" instead, for that is what they were.
 
The crematorias are now "incinerators". So why didn't the SS build 
incinerators? Perhaps "crematoria is just another "codeword"? Just like "In 
readiness for transport" or "passed through" are "codewords" for gassing, 
etc etc [its a long list.] 

However, these were 1951 figures, for the 1940s, let's make it a hour 
per corpse:-  

46 * 24 = 1104 a day. 

However, let's not be a intellectual zero like Roberts or Baron, and 
complain that even these figures are UNREALISTIC, let's remember that the 
Nazis [or the Jewish Sonderkommando who actually operated the retorts, who 
worked hard and were highly trained, and were next for gassing] stuck 3 
[THREE] corpses in EVERY time, in EVERY retort, NON-STOP right through those 
24 hours, despite the fact the retorts were designed for single corpse 
cremation, and did it flat out with NO problems, NO maintenance, No warming 
up, No cooling down, etc. 

Now let us IGNORE the idea that this might take 3 times as long [this allows 
for kids etc etc] , and say it will take the SAME time as for 1 corpse, as 
EVERYONE knows it will, otherwise we may be classed as intellectual zeros, 
and we wouldn't want that would we.  

1) 1940's rate               46 * 24 * 3 = 3312. [20 minutes per corpse]

It's still a bit short of these estimates :-

The SS letter with its janatorial security classification    4,756 a day. 
But a little short of the Polish Commission's estimate of   12,000 a day. 
Hoess the commandant of Auschwitz, he's wrong again------   16,000 a day. 
Inmate Olga lengel's estimate ---------------------------   17,280 a day.
Dr Nysizli's estimate -----------------------------------   20,000 a day.

[Notice how Hoess is just slightly out on his estimate, and he's the camp 
commandant.]


jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) then writes:

> But, of course, the Kremas did not dispose of that many bodies by 
> themselves. They were eventually abandoned in favour of burning pits.

Burning pits which allied photo-recce planes failed to spot. Just like the 
"death wall", where 20,000 prisoners were shot, making no bullet marks, the 
nazis of course using invisible bullets. 

Still, at least the allies sent over precision bombers to take out the 
railway lines, to Auschwitz, to stop the genocide. 

-- 

Jeff
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            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 11 16:36:22 PDT 1995
Article: 30901 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.mindlink.net!agate!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: EXPERTS DIFFER OVER CREMATION RATES AT BIRKENAU
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 12:45:57 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 98
Message-ID: <634459054wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
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The following extract is just part of the testimony at the Zundel trial of 
Ivan Lagace, a funeral director and crematorium manager and operator from 
Calgary, Alberta. Lagace has disposed of more than 10,000 bodies since 1976, 
and cremated more than 1000 since 1984. He has handled victims of fire, 
accident, and disease, and has seen every stage of bodily composition. 
[quote from page 249] 

He was accorded EXPERT status at the Zundel trial.

Lagace next explained some calculations he had made after studying the plans 
for the 46 retorts at Birkenau.(Auschwitz II)
Christie [defence counsel for Zundel] asked him how these compared to the 
plans for his own crematorium.
Well, said Lagace, When I first looked at these [Birkenau plans], I was 
amazed." The specifications were almost identical to his own retort, 
including the unusually high 45-foot stack. Based on the afterburner design, 
he added, it is obvious they were concerned with environmental effects. 
There would be no smoke and no odour."
Lagace estimated that the 46 retorts at Birkenau could handle about 184 
bodies daily, or four apiece.
But, asked Christie, what about Raul Hilberg's estimate of 4,400 cremations 
per day at Birkenau?
Well," said Lagace, that's preposterous, in my eyes. It's beyond the realm 
of reality."
Christie asked if operating 24 hours a day would raise the output.
Just the opposite, insisted Lagace, it would shorten the lifespan of the 
refractory" and create costly delays.
Christie read to Lagace from Hilberg's account of a period in 1944 when 
about 10,000 Jews a day were allegedly being gassed at Birkenau, and asked 
again if the 46 retorts could have cremated 4,400 of the victims daily.
Lagace: It would be ludicrous to say something like that.

But dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) a expert on abuse, especially 
self-abuse writes:
"Well, this "EXPERT" is either lying or he has no idea what he's talking 
about......"

dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
> There's BTW a patent, submitted by the very same Topf firm
> in 1951, which gives a cremation time of 30-45 minutes
> per corpse. It is not the same type of furnace as the
> one used in Birkenau, but this figure obviously means
> a lot, assuming the science of cremation has not made
> a quantum leap right after the war. Once more, the
> revisionazis have failed to do their homework."

So let's use Karen's figures to work out the crematory rates for Birkenau, 
after all, he knows better than Ivan Lagace, an "intellectual zero" who was 
granted Expert status on Cremation at the Zundel trial, 

At the best possible rate [on 1951 figures], flat out with no problems, no 
maintenance, no warming up, no cooling down, no tea breaks, etc 
at 30 minutes per corpse the 46 retorts at Birkenau would have cremated:-

46 * 24 * 2 = 2208 corpses a day.  
multiply this figure by 3 for allow for the fantasy rate of Karen)  =  6624.

estimates :-  

Ivan Lagace [cremation Expert]                            184 a day.
Raul Hilberg  [Jewish Author]                            4,400 a day. 
SS-Sturmbannfurhrer  Jahrings letter  (1)-------        4,756 a day. 
[this includes Auschwitz I] 
D Karen [abuse expert]                                   6,624 a day.
Polish Commission of Inquiry (2)-----------------       12,000 a day. 
Hoess the commandant of Auschwitz,  (2) -----           16,000 a day. 
Inmate Olga Lengel's estimate  (3)          --------    17,280 a day. 
Inmate Dr Nysizli's estimate (2)              --------  20,000 a day.



 
See what another "intellectual zero" like Ivan Lagace has to say:-

Check out:- 

The Holocaust on Trial ,The case of Ernst Zundel by Robert Lenski.

The Institute of Historical Review PO Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 
92659 USA.

Notes:
1) [letter from SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Jahrling to SS-General Kammler, June 25 
1943, see "Auschwitz:Technique and operation of the gas chambers" - J.C 
Pressac,the Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, NY, 1989, p. 247] 
2) [The Final Solution [1968]; Reitlinger page 159]
3) ("Five chimmeys" P68 cited in; Destruction of the European Jews 1961 
Hilberg page 629) 


Jeff
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            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 11 16:36:27 PDT 1995
Article: 30904 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.mindlink.net!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk!jeff
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: GERMANS  TORTURED TO EXTORT "CONFESSIONS"
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 15:07:14 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 83
Message-ID: <784283226wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <647911513wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> <89490617wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
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         AMERICANS TORTURE GERMANS TO EXTORT "CONFESSIONS".

By Fred Redman

TODAY I am able to tell you the full story, revealed in Washington, of the 
American war trials scandal. It is an ugly story of barbarous tortures 
inflicted in the name of Allied justice. 
It is time the British people knew all the facts. Little has appeared in our 
press until today.
The charge is that American soldiers, building evidence against Germans 
accused of war crimes, have behaved with the same sadistic cruelty as the 
beasts who terrorised Europe when it was under Nazi domination.

The truth has come out through the persistence of an American lawyer and the 
frank horror of an American Judge who refuses to be muzzled.
Judge Edward Van Roden member of a US Army Commission of Inquiry tells how 
burning matches were forced under the fingernails of a prisoner by American 
investigators to extort a confession. For months, he says, men were kept in 
solitary confinement on near-starvation rations. 
And they were beaten up and savagely kicked until strong men were redeuced 
to broken wrecks ready to mumble any admission demanded by their 
prosecutors. 

The war department have shown the Judges personal report only to General 
Lucius Clay, their military commander in Germany. Washington suspects the 
reason was that it was too shocking for public disclosure. 

....Commission sent to Germany to investigate was was even more candid.
"All but two of the Germans in the 139 cases we investigated, had been 
kicked in the testicles beyond repair." he charged.
"this was standard operating procedure with our American investigators.
"They would put a black hood over the accused's head and then punch him in 
the face with brass knuckles."
US Army prosecution teams had he said had posed as priests to hear 
confessions and give absolution.

At mock trials men who refused to confess were confronted by a crucifix
and burning candles. Those sham courts, attended by men in US Army uniform, 
passed sham death sentences. Then the accused were told: "Sign this 
confession and we get you acquitted." 

[The Sunday Pictorial Jan 23rd 1949 as cited on p82 in "Holocaust Denial; 
New Nazi Lie or New Inquisition" by Alexander Baron"]
Email A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk for details. ]


"All but two of the Germans in the 139 cases we investigated, had been 
kicked in the testicles beyond repair."

"The change [of public opinion] followed the notorious case of the American 
Dachau Tribunal. This tribunal which was abolished in December 1947,  
had tried 1,500 Germans and condemned 420 of them to death. In autumn of 
that year Dachau justicc became the subject of a commission of investigation 
under Judge Gordon Simpson of the Texas Supreme Court. The commission 
recommended that 29 men who were still under sentence ot death should be 
reprieved, and it declared that statements had be obtained both from 
defendents and witnesses by highly questionable means."

[The final solution [1968] by G. Reitlinger. page 548]

Question: 

The 'Americans' tortured defendents. Shouldn't it call into question the 
validity of confessions given in previous trials?

Question:

If the Americans tortured defendents on such a scale, what did the British, 
and the Communists do?

       
-- 

Jeff
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            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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