The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/r/roberts.jeff/1995/roberts.0695


From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 16 18:34:09 PDT 1995
Article: 22231 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!info.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!unixg.ubc.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.rmii.com!newsjunkie.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!demon!stumpy.demon.co.uk!Jeff
From: Jeff Roberts 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Food supplies in the camps
Date: 15 Jun 1995 09:14:36 +0100
Organization: None
Lines: 53
Sender: news@news.demon.co.uk
Message-ID: <800597924wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <202570886wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> <3r61qq$9a4@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <700553673wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> 
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In article:   dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) 
writes:
>
> [claim that some food was indeed sent to Belsen]
>  
> # Comment?
>  
> The standard one: why did 40,000 people starve to death, while
> there were hundreds of tons of food nearby?

The 40,000 people did not die of starvation. Most died of disease. 
And that food was about one weeks supply. The question is about food. But 
most of the inmates died of typhus, not starvation. Typhus is caused by 
lice. Healthy people will not catch it. But people on short rations, [the 
rations had been reduced from 1000 to 600 calories at this time], in 
overcrowded conditions, and poor sanitation, and not de-loused, will very 
quickly. The inmates sent to No 1 camp were already sick, as well. 
 
But in another part of Belsen, the situation was different. 
"Till the last moment, efforts were made to keep the flood of arrivals out 
of camp no 2. Though, eventually 15,133 people occupied a camp intended for 
7,000, there was no typhus and only the begining of famine in this section." 

Reitlinger TFS (1968) page 507.

> You *really* don't see any problem with this, do you?

Yes I do. What happened at Belsen was horrific. And so was what happened at 
Dresden, Hamburg, Leningrad, Katyn, Nagasaki, and a host of other places.
But there was no deliberate policy to starve the inmates, as Mike Stein's 
'autopsy' letter clearly shows. Why don't you admit it? 

# I will be interested to count the times that prosecution witnesses were
# cross-examined, and what rules of evidence applied.
  
> Do tens-of-thousands of corpses count as evidence?

Still, no deliberate policy of starvation. 

> You're a really sick person, Roberts. Is this stupid game going to go on 
> forever?

I've only just started, Karen. 

-- 
Jeff Roberts                    					    
                                        |

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             Thank you for speaking my language.
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From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 23 11:42:34 PDT 1995
Article: 22504 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!unixg.ubc.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.rmii.com!newsjunkie.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!demon!stumpy.demon.co.uk!Jeff
From: Jeff Roberts 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: ORDER OF WOLSEC FOR  MCVAY
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 21:26:50 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 16
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Next week, Ken Mcvay will receive the Order of Wolsec (or is it 
Wolsek or Belzec) and will reveal details about the Nazi extermination  
Camp that Hoess mentioned in his confession.......


-- 
Jeff Roberts                    					    
                                        |

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             Thank you for speaking my language.
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From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 23 11:42:38 PDT 1995
Article: 22505 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!unixg.ubc.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.rmii.com!newsjunkie.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!demon!stumpy.demon.co.uk!Jeff
From: Jeff Roberts 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: NO NO DELIBERATE STARVATION POLICY FOR INMATES
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 21:26:53 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 141
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Overwhelming evidence?  So far Ive seen none. There WAS insufficent food to 
go round. That the Nazi Goverment fed its soldiers and people first, is what 
I think ANY government would do in their situation. It is NOT evidence 
that they deliberately starved camp inmates as a matter of policy. 
No documents have been produced, which say: Starve the inmates, and 
no witnesses have said that Kramer or anyone else ordered the inmates 
to be starved.
> Jamie R. McCarthy wrote..
>.... the hoarding of hundreds of tons of food a mere two 
miles away..[at Bergen]...
So far no body has produced any evidence that this was intended for the 
inmates, and that someone decided deliberately to prevent this food going to 
the inmates. So far weve had assume someone decided, and perhaps, there 
are no documents.. 

Belsen was the first camp discovered by the Western Allies.....
[No, Natzweiler.] Yes, Why? Because the Germans agreed a truce, to 
hand over the camp because a typhus epidemic had broken out. Why 
should they do that, if they were starving the inmates? 

> lack of sufficient food, overcrowding,  lack of sanitation....
Its a matter of record that allied fighters strafed cattle, while 
bombers deliberately targeted houses. It would be interesting to know how 
many houses were still standing in Germany after the RAF/USAAF 
had deliberately targeted their destruction. However, the Nazis re-erected 
barracks from Plazcow labour camp at Belsen. About 15,000 arriving 
inmates were turned away by Kramer who arranged with Beineburg to put 
up them at Bergen Camp, so they did do something. The water supply had 
been bombed and polluted. Many inmates had dysentry. Large numbers of 
inmates were already sick when they were sent to Belsen. 

> All these problems were caused by the Nazis........
Were these deliberate, too?

> ...it was just sitting in a huge storehouse, not being eaten.
No, it wasnt. Potatoes and turnips were being supplied to the camp, as said 
before. 

> It would have prolonged life for everyone at Belsen by a week -- which 
> would have been enough time to save many lives.
Many more people would have their lives prolonged, if the allies had 
abandoned their policy of unconditional surrender. If the Germans 
had wanted to kill the inmates, why choose a policy of starvation, why 
not set up another gas chamber?  More Nazi irrationality.....

> But would it have been just a week?  Perhaps Mr. Roberts thinks so. Mr. 
> Roberts, however, has clearly failed to do even basic research into 
> the caloric content of the various foods in that storehouse.

You are STILL assuming that these supplies are for the camp. What is more 
likely is they were for the Heer (Army).  Kramer recieved his supplies from 
Depots in Celle and Hanover, and received some supplies from Bergen. The 
camp also had its own supplies, like the 50 pigs taken and roasted, the 
night the British arrived.  

> That's a total of 11,850 calories per person excluding bread.  Throw in 
> one week's worth of bread and it's an even 12,000.
You forget that many detainees were sick and on special diets, so thats even 
more available.  And yet what happens when the British arrive? Food was
brought up. Why? The place is overflowing with the stuff according to 
you lot.... 

Ok, lets assume your calculations are correct. Lets assume the stores were 
for the camp. Lets assume that someone decided not to give the detainees 
the food. Lets assume Kramer had complete control over these supplies, and 
lets assume that Kramer gave a verbal order and lets assume it was 
his fault. Lets assume this Army depot was replicated all over 
Germany, and there was stacks of food everywhere. 

It seems to me that theres a lot of assuming to do with your 
deliberate policy to starve inmates.

> If this is not de facto evidence for a policy of starvation, I don't know 
> what is.  Surely, if there were no rule against it, there would have 
> someone around with enough of a heart to simply take some trucks 
> and deliver food to the camp.  Or, if the Nazis cared about the 
> inmates at all, they could have simply released a few hundred 
> healthy prisoners and had them carry food to the rest.

But Kramer had gassed hundreds of thousands of Jews at Birkenau, have you 
forgotten? Thats why Himmler put him in charge of a camp for sick 
workers. 

> But we don't need de facto evidence for that policy.  We have the policy 
> statement itself.  Pay attention, Mr. Roberts.

> A few days ago a meeting with the Reich Marshal took place in  Berlin. The 
> Reich Marshal had the reports concerning the almost  catastrophic 
> developments in the food situation in Germany.  According to all 
> confidential reports of the police, as well as of  the Gauleiter, 
> which, as he expressed himself, also confirmed by  his own 
> experiences, the situation is as follows:  unless a considerable 
> improvement in the food situation in Germany can be achieved in a short 
> time, serious consequences to the health of the people, especially 
> the German working people, would result.  [...] 

...almost catastrophic developments in the food situation in 
Germany....and this is August 1942! And so in 1945, Germany is awash 
that's your logic? 

> Under these circumstances you probably will not be surprised that the 
> saying now has become true:   
> Before the German people are to experience starvation, the occupied 
> territories and their people shall be exposed to starvation.
 
Not very Liberal, were they, those Nazis......Im sure that the Yanks would 
have supplied food, if they had explained the situation.........  

> The new demand will be fulfilled exclusively at the expense of the  
> foreign population_.  It must be done cold-bloodedly and without  
> pity; for this contribution of the General Government is still more 
> important this year since the occupied Eastern territories -- Ukraine 
> and Ostland -- wil not yet be able to make an important  contribution 
> toward the relief of Germany's food problem.   
.......Germanys food problem..[1942!]..

> Not unimportant manpower has been taken from us in form of our old proven 
> Jewish communities.  It is clear that the working program is 
> made difficult when in the middle of the program, during the war, the 
> order for complete *annihilation* of the Jews is given.  The 
> responsibility for this cannot be placed upon the government of the 
> General Government.  The directive for the *annihilation* of the 
> Jews comes from higher quarters.

*Annihilation*  I guess without seeing the document that the word is 
ausrottung [root out/uproot.] 

....perhaps they had forgotten the code book. .....



-- 
Jeff Roberts                    					    
                                        |

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From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 23 11:42:40 PDT 1995
Article: 22506 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!info.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.chnt.gtegsc.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news.iag.net!newsboy.utelfla.com!news.sprintlink.net!demon!stumpy.demon.co.uk!Jeff
From: Jeff Roberts 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: 25 MILLION WERE GASSED .
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 21:38:13 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <752926272wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <3rmi6d$3rk@newsbf02.news.aol.com>  <803071491snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>
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donvh@aol.com (DonVH) wrote:-
Mr. Baron - You forget Mr. Reitlinger's word from 1952 published in his
THE FINAL SOLUTION.  I quote ,"...the figure of four millions has become
ridiculous.  Unfortunately Russian arithmetic has blurred the stark and
inescapable facts that little less than a million human beings perished in
Auschwitz."  p.460.

Thats Garbage! Kurt Gerstein said it was 25 million, and he must have 
known, he delivered all the Zyclon B.

-- 
Jeff Roberts                    					    
                                        |

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             Thank you for speaking my language.
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From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 23 11:42:44 PDT 1995
Article: 22507 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!info.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.chnt.gtegsc.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news.iag.net!newsboy.utelfla.com!news.sprintlink.net!demon!stumpy.demon.co.uk!Jeff
From: Jeff Roberts 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: THIS IS A FAIR TRIAL BY THE POLISH COMMUNISTS
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 21:38:14 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <638824296wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
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In article: <3rdl33$c5l@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>  kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca 
(Ken McVay) writes:

> You see, Mr. Filan, it is like this:
> 
> 1. All court testimony is either forged, or
> 2. All court testimony is extracted under torture, or
> 3. All court testimony should be disbelieved, because Germany
>    is controlled by (you guessed it) the JEWS.

"Bauer reports the fate of hundreds of Jews who had been persuaded by a 
repersentative of the Polish government to return 'home'. At the 
border they were met by a government official who notified them that 
they had been SENTENCED TO DEATH for COLLABORATING with the 
enemy. In view of the victory, however the head of state had consented to 
commute their sentence and they would be accordingly be permitted to 
expiate their crimes by three years of hard labour or army service. The 
men were forcibly separated from their families and children, loaded 
into trucks and driven away.......Those who managed to get away 
returned to the [DP?] camps in order to warn their bethren and prevent 
them from meeting a slimilar fate."

[Bauer, The Organization of the Holocaust Survivors, P134]
Cited in 'The End of the Holocaust' Jon Bridgman  p76.

What do you think of the testimony in this trial, Ken? 

 
Jeff Roberts                    					    
                              |

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             Thank you for speaking my language.
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From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 23 11:42:48 PDT 1995
Article: 22508 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!unixg.ubc.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.rmii.com!newsjunkie.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!demon!stumpy.demon.co.uk!Jeff
From: Jeff Roberts 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Nizkor Project: Holocaust educational resource list
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 21:26:52 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 148
Message-ID: <893222486wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <3rp418$5nl@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
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In article: <3rp418$5nl@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>  kmcvay@news.almanac.bc.ca 
(Ken McVay) writes:
> Path: 
stumpy.demon.co.uk!news.demon.co.uk!demon!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!howland.
reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cyberstore.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.
mindlink.net!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.bc.net!news.island.net!news.port.isl
and.net!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail
> From: kmcvay@news.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay)
> Newsgroups: 
alt.revisionism,soc.history,talk.politics.misc,soc.culture.jewish
> Subject: The Nizkor Project: Holocaust educational resource list
> Followup-To: alt.revisionism
> Date: 15 Jun 1995 04:03:04 -0700
> Organization: The Nizkor Project
> Lines: 106
> Message-ID: <3rp418$5nl@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.60.231.126
> Keywords: bibliography,Holocaust
> Xref: news.demon.co.uk alt.revisionism:23848 soc.history:19635 
talk.politics.misc:138903 soc.culture.jewish:82644
> 
> Archive/File: /pub/holocaust/bibliography biblio.INDEX
> Last-modified: 1995/06/06
> 
> I have assembled Holocaust bibliographic reference files, which are
> available to anyone requesting them.  They contain well over 2500
> entries, and will prove invaluable for anyone interested in learning
> more about the collective events referred to as the Holocaust.
> 
> A current list of all of our Holocaust bibliographic files is shown
> below.  
> 
> You may obtain all 28 parts of the bibliography by sending a message to:
> 
> 		listserv@oneb.almanac.bc.ca
> 
> and including this text in the message:
> 
> get holocaust/bibliography biblio.1   (Almanac list, part 1)
> get holocaust/bibliography biblio.2   (Almanac list, part 2)
> get holocaust/bibliography biblio.3   (UCSD list)
> get holocaust/bibliography biblio.4   (PRA list)
> get holocaust/bibliography biblio.5   (Yad Vashem 1991 
>                                       publication list & prices)
> get holocaust/bibliography biblio.6   (Gypsies & the Holocaust - Harvard)
> get holocaust/bibliography biblio.7   (Dachau KZ - Harvard)
> get holocaust/bibliography biblio.08  (Sachsenhausen KZ - Harvard)
> get holocaust/bibliography biblio.09  (Belsen KZ - Harvard)
> get holocaust/bibliography biblio.10  (Belzec KZ - Harvard)
> get holocaust/bibliography biblio.11  (Birkenau KZ - Harvard)
> get holocaust/bibliography biblio.12  (Gusen - Harvard)
> get holocaust/bibliography biblio.13  (Maidanek - Harvard)
> get holocaust/bibliography biblio.14  (Mauthausen - Harvard)
> get holocaust/bibliography biblio.15  (Sobibor - Harvard)
> get holocaust/bibliography biblio.16  (Buchenwald - Harvard)
> get holocaust/bibliography biblio.17  (Ravensbruck - Harvard)
> get holocaust/bibliography biblio.18  (Dora - Harvard)
> get holocaust/bibliography biblio.19  (Josef Mengele 
>                                       selected bibliography)
> get holocaust/bibliography biblio.20a (Paper on the subject of
>                                       acquisition of Holocaust denial 
>                                       material by libraries. Bibliography
>                                       for the paper follows as biblio.20b)
> get holocaust/bibliography biblio.20b (Bibliography for biblio.20a)
> get holocaust/bibliography biblio.21  National Archives Trust Fund:
>                                       List of captured German sound
>                                       recordings, descriptions, how
>                                       to access..
> get holocaust/bibliography ssss.books-1	
>                                       (Social Studies School Services 
>                                       book catalog, A-M)
> get holocaust/bibliography ssss.books-2	
>                                       (Social Studies School Services 
>                                       book catalog, N-Z)
> get holocaust/bibliography ssss.video-1	
>                                       (Social Studies School Services 
>                                       video catalog, A-M)
> get holocaust/bibliography ssss.video-2	
>                                       (Social Studies School Services 
>                                       video catalog, N-Z)
> get holocaust/bibliography ijgj.dbase (Institute on the Holocaust and
> 				      Genocide announces Holocaust
> 				      and Genocide Computerized Biblio.
>  				      database)
> get holocaust/bibliography children   (An article written by Rudman &
> 				      Roseberg which discusses Holocaust
>   		                      books written for children, and which
>                                       reviews many of them. Also briefly
>   				      reviews suggestions for authors of
> 				      such material.)
> 
> get holocaust/bibliography posen.001  (How to access the Felix Posen
>                                       On-Line databases - the Felix
>                                       Posen Bibliographic Project
>                                       on antisemitism.)
> 
> get holocaust/bibliography ushril.justice (United States Holocaust
>    				      Research Institute Library:
> 				      "National Socialism & Justice"
> 				      search request result. (29K))
> 
> get holocaust/bibliography ushmm.video (United States Holocaust
>                                       Memorial Museum Annotated 
> 	                              Videography.)
> 
> (Don't include the comments in parentheses - they're there for reference
> only.)
> 
> If you have bibliographic citations I can add to the bibliography, or
> documented articles dealing with the subject of the Holocaust, I would
> be pleased to add them to the distribution archives.  I am particularly
> interested in verbatim transcripts from the National Archives records,
> or German court testimonies, which should be provided in German with an
> English translation.
> 
> NOTE: The mail-based server at oneb.almanac.bc.ca will be phased out
> of service before the end of summer. Users are encouraged to utilize
> anonymous ftp (ftp.almanac.bc.ca) or the Nizkor WEB
> (http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca) to obtain these or other files.
> 
> FOLLOWUPS redirected to alt.revisionism.
> 
> -- 
>      The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>                    Anonymous ftp: ftp.almanac.bc.ca
>  Nizkor Web: http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Under construction - 
permanently!)
>     Kenneth McVay OBC.  Home Page: http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca/~kmcvay
> 
> 

You missed out Wolsec (or is Wolsek or should I look at Belzec), Ken. After 
all Hoess confessed to it being there and he understood English, so it must 
be there, after all we must assume all these confessions were freely given 
and are completely accurate.... 



-- 
Jeff Roberts                    					    
                                        |

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             Thank you for speaking my language.
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From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 23 11:42:50 PDT 1995
Article: 22509 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!unixg.ubc.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.rmii.com!newsjunkie.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!demon!stumpy.demon.co.uk!Jeff
From: Jeff Roberts 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BELSEN TRIAL -  FAIR?
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 21:26:56 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <486741918wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <357766503wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> 
Reply-To: Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
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In article:   dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) 
writes:
> Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
> Path: 
stumpy.demon.co.uk!news.demon.co.uk!demon!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.spr
intlink.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!world!dkeren
> From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
> Subject: Re: BELSEN TRIAL -  FAIR?
> Message-ID: 
> Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
> References: <357766503wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
> Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 09:47:12 GMT
> Lines: 75
> 
> Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk (Jeff Roberts) writes:
>  
> According to Roberts, there was nothing wrong with the fact that
> tens-of-thousands of people were starved to death and killed by
> other means at Belsen; he doesn't think the SS did anything
> bad. So, it's no wonder he asks if the trial was fair - he
> probably thinks there was no need for such a trial.

> # This is what Gerald Reitlinger says about the Belsen "trial". 
> # "The verdicts, which had been reached under conditions so 
> # different from those under which British Justice normally
> # functions, caused grave misgivings in legal circles at home."
>  
 
> # Did the rules of evidence apply?
> 
> What does this question mean?

Rules stating what evidence can be submitted to the court, why don't you 
look up article 19 of the IMT, and see how they judged what evidence could 
be submitted.

Jeff Roberts                    					    
                                        |

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From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 23 11:42:52 PDT 1995
Article: 22510 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!unixg.ubc.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.rmii.com!newsjunkie.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!demon!stumpy.demon.co.uk!Jeff
From: Jeff Roberts 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 4,000,000 again and more strange documents
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 21:26:57 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <408147132wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <803325252snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>  <3s1a0k$h44@agate.berkeley.edu>
Reply-To: Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: stumpy.demon.co.uk
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In article: <3s1a0k$h44@agate.berkeley.edu>  schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu 
(Richard Schultz) writes:
> >From: Alexander Baron 
> >>Jewish Chronicle June 13, 1947, page 1 reports the discovery of 
> >>Nazi documents show that Hitler planned to exterminate 330,000 
> >>Jews in Britain and 865,000 in France. What happened to this 
> >>mysterious document? If it ever existed.
> 

Well, of course it existed. Well, we have to assume it existed. Perhaps 
there wasn't a document. It must have been verbal. Sod off you Nazi!

-- 
Jeff Roberts                    					    
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From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 23 11:42:54 PDT 1995
Article: 22512 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!unixg.ubc.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.rmii.com!newsjunkie.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!demon!stumpy.demon.co.uk!Jeff
From: Jeff Roberts 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: JEWISH SOB STUFF
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 21:26:58 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <233207613wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
Reply-To: Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
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X-Broken-Date: Wednesday, Jun 21, 1995 19.32.42
X-Newsreader: Newswin Alpha 0.7

I was looking through some books in the library on the USAAF/RAF air 
war and I saw this mentioned as a US Government Official response to 
Jewish requests to bomb the Gas Chambers.

Does anybody know what book the reference is in?

-- 
Jeff Roberts                    					    
                                        |

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             Thank you for speaking my language.
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From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 23 11:42:58 PDT 1995
Article: 22513 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!unixg.ubc.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.rmii.com!newsjunkie.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!demon!stumpy.demon.co.uk!Jeff
From: Jeff Roberts 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: ALLIES HAD CAPABILITY  TO STOP GENOCIDE BUT DID ZILCH !
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 21:27:01 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 165
Message-ID: <558981371wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: 
Reply-To: Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-Broken-Date: Wednesday, Jun 21, 1995 19.53.07
X-Newsreader: Newswin Alpha 0.7

In article:   mvanalst@rbi.com 
(Mark Van Alstine) writes:
> In July, 1944 a major bombing effort in the Auschwitz-Blechhammer area 
began.
> There were eight major synthetic oil refineries/industrial areas that were
> clustered within thirty-five miles of Auschwitz (including Auschwitz 
> itself) that were targeted.  

Sounds like a good place to concentrate and use detainees labour to help 
with the war effort.

> Some of the dates and targets that were raided:

> August 7, 1944. Heavy bombers struck targets on both sides of Auschwitz. 
> 357 bombers hit  Blechhammer and 55 bomber hit Trzebina- thirteen mile 
> northeast of Auschwitz. [1]
> August 20, 1944.  127 B-17s, escorted by 100 P-51s, dropped 1,336 500 lb.
> bombs on the industrial area of Auschwitz, LESS THAN FIVE MILES east of > 
> the gas chambers.  The weather was excellent. The anti-aircraft fire and > 
> the nineteen_ defending German fighters were innefectual. The results were 
> ONE
> B-17 lost and all attacking bomber groups hitting their targets. [1] [2]
> 
> August 22, 1944. 261 B-17 and B-24 heavy bombers attacked oil refineries 
at Blechhammer and Odertal. [1] 
> August 27, 1944.  350 heavy bombers hit Blechhammer again. Many of the > 
bombers passing within forty miles of Auschwitz. [1]
> August 29,  1944. 218 bombers hit Moravska Ostrava and Oderburg, both 
> which were within forty miles of Auschwitz. [1]
> September 13, 1944. The industrial area of Auschwitz was bombed again, 
> this time by 96 B-24s. No German fighters were encountered but the 
> anti-aircraft
> fire was heavy. Three B-24s were downed. Even though the bombers flew
> DIRECTLY over the death camp, no attempt at bombing it was made.  
(Incidental
> to the raid two stray bombs hit nearby, damaging a rail spur lerading to 
the  gas chambers.) [3]
> 
> December 18 and 26, 1944.  The 15th Air Force yet again bombed the 
industrial area of Auschwitz. [4]

What about before this period? say from Jan to July 1944?  

> It is fair to say then, considering such bombing activity, that the
> Auschwitz-Blechhammer area was an area of intense bombing from August 7 to
> August 29 of 1944. Yet on August 14, the War Department would write, in
> response to an August 9 request by the Czech government-in exile to bomb
> the gas chambers and crematoria at Auschwitz, that bombing Auschwitz would
> be possible only by the diversion of airpower from "decisive operations
> elsewhere." [5]

> It must be noted that the War Department's decision not to bomb Auschwitz
> because of the diversion of of airpower from other operations was made
> without consulting USAAF commanders in Europe, nor was it based on any
> analysis of current USAAF operations in Europe. In fact, the rejection to
> bomb Auschwitz was based on a confidential War Department policy made in
> Washington five months before. [6]
> 
> This contradiction of words and deeds brings us to a central issue in the
> refusal to bomb Auschwitz. The War Department's Operations Division (OPD)
> rejection of the August 9 request to bomb Auschwitz was based on the
> grounds that air power could not be diverted from vital "industrial target
> systems" and Auschwitz was "not part of these targets systems."This, of
> course, was simply not true- as evidenced by the _repeated_ raids by the
> 15th Air Force on Auschwitz.  [7]
> 
> The OPD also stated that the destruction of the death camp facillities
> would require heavy or medium  bombers, or low-flying  or dive-bombing > 
> aircraft.
> The OPD then made two misleading statements that indicated such a mission 
> was technically impossible or too risky to undertake:  [8]
> 
> "The target [Auschwitz] is beyond the maximum range of medium bombardment,
> dive bombers and fighter bombers located in the United Kindom, France or
> Italy."
> 
> "Use of heavy bombardment from United Kindom bases would necessitate a 
round
> trip flight unescorted of approximately 2000 miles over enemy territory."
> 
> The first statement is inaccurate. B-25 Mitchell medium bombers, P-38
> Lightning fighter-bombers, and Mosquito fighter-bombers had sufficient > > 
range to attack Auschwitz from their bases in Italy. The second statement > 
is disengenous and seems to have been made to simply confuse the issue. > > 
Heavy bombers in the UK were not the _only_  heavy bombers in Europe that > 
could strike Auschwitz. Why were the 15th Air Force's heavy bombers in > 
Italy not
> mentioned? the 15th's B-17 and B-24 heavy bomber could reach Auschwitz 
from
> their bases in Italy with ease. In fact the bombers of the 15th Air Force 
did
> just that from July 1944 on- they bombed the Auschwitz-Blechhammer area,
> especially Auschwitz itself, repeatedly.
> 
> In truth the only _real_ obsticle to precision high-level bombing of
> Auschwitz would have been flak. Auschwitz had little flak defenses, as
> evidenced by the August 20 raid, until September.  Even then German flak
> units were not overwhelming and arguably would have, based on the evidence
> from raids, only concentrated their fire on bombers over the industrial
> targets at Auschwitz- five mile away from the death camp. 
> 
> All it would have took then was to have some of the heavy bombers on one 
of
> the large Auschwitz strikes to divert FIVE MILES over to the Birkenau side
> and bomb the gas chambers. Heavy bombers flying at an altitude of 20,000 
feet
> could have destroyed the buildings. But since "precision" daylight bombing
> was a relative term, one could expect some of the bombs to have landed in
> nearby Birkenau, a heavily populated concentration camp. Jewish leaders in
> the US and Europe, however,  concluded that any loss of life under the
> circumstances was justifiable. (One need only remember that 90 percent of 
the
> Jews were gassed on arrival at Auschwitz. Or to realize that many of those
> held at Auschwitz _hoped_ that it would be bombed- even if it cost them 
their
> lives. [9]) 
> 
> > But you're getting into low-altitude, precision bombing runs across
> > anti-aircraft barrages etc., very deep within Nazi-held territory for
> > the most part. Look at a map, locate Auschwitz etc.
> 
> The use of dive-bombers  would have been an effective solution to bombing 
the
> gas chambers and crematoria at Auschwitz. Especially considering that
> there was basically NO fighter German fighter coverage and light flak. A
> few P-38s, for instance,  could have taken out the murder buildings at
> Birkenau. P-38s proved capable of such missions when on June 10, 1944 they
> dive-bombed the Ploesti oil refineries- a 1,255-mile round trip from their
> bases in Italy. (The round trip distance for a raid on Auschwitz would
> have been 1,240 miles.) [10]
> 
> The most effective means of destroying the killing installations at 
Auschwitz
> would have, arguably, been to use Mosquito fighter-bombers. The Mosquito 
had
> ample range for such a mission and had proven very accurate when bombing 
at
> low altitudes. For instance, in February of 1944, nineteen Mosquitos 
bombed a
> prison at Amiens to free members of the French resistance slated for
> execution. The first thirteen Mosquitos released their bombs with such
> accuracy, destroying the main wall and guardhouses, that the last six
> Mosquitos didn't drop their bombs. (This was done in very bad winter 
weather
> and under precision requirements greater than would be required of a 
similair
> raid on Auschwitz.)  Mosquitos also knocked out other individual buildings 
on
> numerous occasions with similiar, impressive, results. (Gestapo buildings
> were evidently frequent targets.) [11]
> 
> Mark

..the Allies did NOTHING to stop the genocide despite all the proof.

-- 
Jeff Roberts                    					    
                                        |

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             Thank you for speaking my language.
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From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 23 11:43:01 PDT 1995
Article: 22514 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!unixg.ubc.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.rmii.com!newsjunkie.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!demon!stumpy.demon.co.uk!Jeff
From: Jeff Roberts 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Suchomel Remembers Treblinka
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 21:27:03 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <385362464wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <9506070657.AA07323@lems24.lems.brown.edu> <84477675wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>  <356750268wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> 
Reply-To: Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-Broken-Date: Wednesday, Jun 21, 1995 21.04.46
X-Newsreader: Newswin Alpha 0.7

In article:   dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) 
writes:
> Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
> Path: 
stumpy.demon.co.uk!news.demon.co.uk!demon!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.spr
intlink.net!simtel!news.kei.com!world!dkeren
> From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
> Subject: Re: Suchomel Remembers Treblinka
> Message-ID: 
> Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
> References: <9506070657.AA07323@lems24.lems.brown.edu> 
<84477675wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>  
<356750268wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
> Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 10:48:12 GMT
> Lines: 32
> 
> # dkeren@world.std.com writes:
>  
> ## After hearing the recording once again, and looking at the
> ## book "Shoa", which quotes the whole text of the movie, it
> ## turns out that Suchomel says "Belsec", although his heavy
> ## accent is somewhat confusing; perhaps others who have seen his 
> ## testimony in the movie can comment.
> ##
> ## This makes sense, as Wirth spent a lot of time in Belsec.

> Jeff Roberts  writes:
> # No, the statement of Hoess [Auschwitz commandant] makes it clear 
> # that Belsec was a different place:-
>  
> Learn to read. I was talking about Suchomel, not Hoess. He's
> talking about Belsec, where wirth spent a lot of time.

But Suchomel says WOLSEC, which is much closer to Hoess's Wolzek, then 
Belsec.  

>  
> Re Hoess - either he or the person taking notes of what he said
> made a mistake. 
>  

> In millions of lines of text containing documentation of a
> historical event, there will always be some mistakes. Our
> "revisionist scholars" seek to deny historical events by
> endlessly pointing out these mistakes, while totally ignoring
> the rest of the text. Not very smart IMHO.
>  

Wolsec appears in Suchomel's testimony, Wolzek appears in Hoess's statement, 
both apprently non-existant places, and they both give sworn testimony with 
near enough the same 'mistake' .


-- 
Jeff Roberts                    					    
                                        |

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             Thank you for speaking my language.
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From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 23 11:43:04 PDT 1995
Article: 22515 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!torn!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!demon!stumpy.demon.co.uk!Jeff
From: Jeff Roberts 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Schwarzhuber Tells of His Days at Ravensbrueck
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 21:27:04 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 82
Message-ID: <509401810wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <9506070648.AA07306@lems24.lems.brown.edu> <432816857wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> <10JUN199513074675@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
Reply-To: Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-Broken-Date: Wednesday, Jun 21, 1995 20.21.47
X-Newsreader: Newswin Alpha 0.7

In article: <10JUN199513074675@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>  
dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) writes:
> >(Daniel Keren) writes:
> >In article: <9506070648.AA07306@lems24.lems.brown.edu>  dk@lems.brown.edu 
> 
> >> SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Johann Schwarzhuber testifies about gassing
> >> in the Ravensbrueck concentration camp
> >> [Quoted in "Nazi Mass Murder: A Documentary History of the
> >> Use of Poison Gas", edited by E. Kogon, H. Langbein, and
> >> A. Rueckerl, Yale University Press, 1993, p. 187]
> >> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> >> At the end of February 1945 I was called with Dr. Trommer to the
> >> office of the camp commandant, Sturmbannfuehrer Suhren. Suhren
> >> informed us that he had received an order from Reichsfuehrer Himmler
> >> to liquidate all the women who were sick or unable to walk... 
>     [testimony continues in detail]
> 
> ".......camp commandant, Sturmbannfuehrer Suhren. Suhren informed us that 
> he had received an order from Reichsfuehrer Himmler to liquidate all the 
> women who were sick or unable to walk. Before..."
> 
> >a) Can you give me details of this order sent by HImmler to Suhren? 
> 
>     	a. Asking Dr. Keren to do your research for you, or
>     	b. Just being a pain by asking for cites willy-nilly?

I,ve seen no rules for this newsgroup posted. Perhaps we should agree on 
some..

>     2. The document posted by Dr. Keren purports only to being a testimony
>     by Schwarzhuber.  As such there is no reason to believe that this
>     testimony is accompanied by documentation of everything Schwarzhuber
>     says, let alone what Schwarzhuber says Suhren says that Himler says.

So Schwarzhuber could be lying about Suhren saying Himmler gave the 
order.....

But this is sworn testimony isn't it? 

> 
>     So, while this testimony alone most certainly does not prove that
>     Himler gave such an order (or that such an action was carried out
>     independent of whether Himler gave an order), 

So, this action was a "wildcat" or "unofficial" gassing, and against orders 
without odersdid as they please, is this what you're saying. Or shall we 
assume it was one....  
And 


> "it does add to the complex mosaic of evidence pointing to the liklihood > 
of such events."

Really?

>     And most certainly the lack of existence of a written order in 1995 of
>     something that Himler may have conveying in writing or orally in 194?
>     does not prove that such an order never occurred.
> 
>     3. If such an order does exist today, and you find it in your earnest
>     research into this subject, please present it forward as it would be 
an
>     invlauable piece of evidence about WWII.
> 
> 
===========================================================================
> daniel david mittleman     -     danny@arizona.edu     -     (520) 
621-2932
> 
>        "I can't complain, but sometimes I still do..."  -- Joe Walsh
> 
> 
-- 
Jeff Roberts                    					    
                                        |

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             Thank you for speaking my language.
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From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 23 11:43:06 PDT 1995
Article: 22516 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!torn!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!cam.news.pipex.net!pipex!soap.news.pipex.net!pipex!edi.news.pipex.net!pipex!demon!stumpy.demon.co.uk!Jeff
From: Jeff Roberts 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: HOESS STATEMENT "edited"  AT NIZOR?
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 21:27:02 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <148686862wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
Reply-To: Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-Broken-Date: Wednesday, Jun 21, 1995 21.19.07
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The Hoess Statement (German & English) [from the Nizor/rememberance 
resource]     
Paragraph 6 reads:-
    6. Die "Endloesung" der juedischen Frage bedeutete die
 vollstaendige Ausrottung aller Juden in Europa. Ich hatte den
 Befehl, Ausrottungserleichterungen in Auschwitz im Juni 1942 zu
 schaffen. Zu jener Zeit bestanden schon drei weitere Vernicht-
 ungslager im Generalgouvernement: Belzec, Treblinka und Wolzek.
 Diese Lager befanden sich unter dem Einsatzkommando der Sicher-
 heitspolizei und des SD.......

[this translates to:]

    6. The "final solution" of the Jewish question meant the
 complete extermination of all Jews in Europe. I had the order to
 produce extermination facilities in Auschwitz in June 1942. At
 that time three further annihilation camps already existed in
 the general government: Belzec, Treblinka and Wolzek. These camps
 found themselves under the mission command of the security
 police and the SD.....
 
>From "Der Kommandant von Auschwitz erzaehlt," in _Das Dritte
 Reich und die Juden_, edited by Leon Poliakov and Josef Wulf.
 Berlin Grunewald, Verlag-GmbH, 1955.

However, it should read June 1941. 

So was it just a typo, or does the source say 1942 as well?

-- 
Jeff Roberts                    					    
                                        |

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             Thank you for speaking my language.
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From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 26 18:47:18 PDT 1995
Article: 22714 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!unixg.ubc.ca!info.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.chnt.gtegsc.com!news.sprintlink.net!cam.news.pipex.net!pipex!soap.news.pipex.net!pipex!edi.news.pipex.net!pipex!demon!stumpy.demon.co.uk!Jeff
From: Jeff Roberts 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: THIS IS A FAIR TRIAL BY THE POLISH COMMUNISTS
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 16:25:08 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <860803002wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <638824296wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> <3sf52b$sg7@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
Reply-To: Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: stumpy.demon.co.uk
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In article: <3sf52b$sg7@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>  kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca 
(Ken McVay OBC) writes:
> In article <638824296wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>,
> Jeff Roberts   wrote:
> 
>> "Bauer reports the fate of hundreds of Jews who had been persuaded by a 
>> repersentative of the Polish government to return 'home'. At the 
>> border they were met by a government official who notified them that 
>> they had been SENTENCED TO DEATH for COLLABORATING with the 
>> enemy. In view of the victory, however the head of state had consented to 
>> commute their sentence and they would be accordingly be permitted to 
>> expiate their crimes by three years of hard labour or army service. The 
>> men were forcibly separated from their families and children, loaded 
>> into trucks and driven away.......Those who managed to get away 
>> returned to the [DP?] camps in order to warn their bethren and prevent 
>> them from meeting a slimilar fate."
> 
>> [Bauer, The Organization of the Holocaust Survivors, P134]
>> Cited in 'The End of the Holocaust' Jon Bridgman  p76.
> 
>> What do you think of the testimony in this trial, Ken? 

And unbelievably, Ken McVay replies :-

> As you haven't posted any testimony from any trial, I obviously
> cannot comment. As soon as you have posted the transcripts, I'll let
> you know what I think of them.

Found it too difficult to work out, eh Ken? 

Try reading the extract again.... 

There was no testimony, nor any trial, so there's no transcripts. 
The Jews were simply NOTIFIED of their guilt. 

Still, No doubt you will re-affirm your belief that all evidence submitted 
by the Polish Communists is completely valid, and tell us that these 
colloborators got what they deserved......





-- 
Jeff Roberts                    					    
                                        |

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             Thank you for speaking my language. [wolsekian]
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From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 29 21:38:57 PDT 1995
Article: 22889 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!info.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!demon!stumpy.demon.co.uk!Jeff
From: Jeff Roberts 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: starvation
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 16:33:34 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <697889489wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <803937613snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>  <3sjhjt$i76@access2.digex.net>
Reply-To: Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-Broken-Date: Tuesday, Jun 27, 1995 16.33.34
X-Newsreader: Newswin Alpha 0.7

In article: <3sjhjt$i76@access2.digex.net>  mstein@access2.digex.net 
(Michael P. Stein) writes:
>     You're missing an important part of the story, Danny [Karen].  A 
> review of my archives shows that the starvation discussion started because 
> Jeff Roberts replied to a one-line statement by Barry Shein about 
> starvation with the words, "Prove it, then."
> 
>     It's been my observation that when these "other method" discussions
> come up here, frequently it's the "revisionists" who first made an issue
> of it.  So the comment "they're concentrating on this because they can no
> longer support the gassing story" is _doubly_ dishonest.

Actually, you are wrong here, Mr Stein. 
The thread started in this manner :- 
: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote: There was no deliberate German 
policy of starving concentration camp inmates. 
Daniel Keren (dk@lems.brown.edu) replied:-
..absolute garbage.........plenty of food............ not given to the 
inmates.
Ross replied by asking for a citation that will prove that it was deliberate 
policy to starve concentration camps inmates.                     ********** 

This citation is STILL awaited. 
                 *****  


-- 
Jeff Roberts                    					    
                                        |

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             Thank you for speaking my language.
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From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 29 21:38:59 PDT 1995
Article: 22890 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!info.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!demon!stumpy.demon.co.uk!Jeff
From: Jeff Roberts 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: ALL JEWS WE CAN LAY OUR HANDS ON MUST BE DESTROYED
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 17:47:08 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <128173811wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <3sf5kj$sj3@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <3shjrq$fae@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
Reply-To: Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
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X-Newsreader: Newswin Alpha 0.7

In article: <3shjrq$fae@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>  gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) 
writes:
> Hoess received the posting to Auschwitz on May 4, 1940 from Gluecks (Le 
> Commandant d'Auschwitz parle, page 130 [French edition of "Der Kommandant 
> von Auschwitz erzaehlt", petite collection maspero, Paris, 1979].  The  
> purpose of the camp at that time was to serve as a concentration camp....

no, not a Kz, but a protective custody camp [?]  (Schutzhaftlager). 

> The order to transform it into an extermination camp came in "summer" 1941 
> (Hoess claims he no longer remembers the precise date).  The order came 
> verbally from Himmler, 

Thats lucky, Keren won't have to produce details of it then.

> and was couched roughly as follows (Hoess' words):

assuming they were his of course........ 

> "The Fuehrer has given the order to proceed with the final solution of the 
> Jewish question.  We the SS are charged to execute this order.  The 
> extermination centres that already exist in the eastern zone

..ie Belzec, Treblinka and Wolsek.....  

> are not in a condition to bring to a conclusion the large-scale projects 
> that are envisaged.  It is thus for this purpose that I have chosen 
> Auschwitz, first because of its favorable situation from a communicatioins 
> standpoint and further because the establishment destined for such an 
> action can easily be isolated and camoflauged in this region. [...]  A 
> difficult and painful task awaits you; you must devote yourself to it 
> entirely and try to minimize the difficulties that await you.  [...]  The 
> Jews are the eternal enemy of the German people and must be exterminated. 
> All Jews that we can lay our hands on must be destroyed, with no  
> exceptions, starting now, during the War."
>  
> [Ibid, pp 260-261]
 
..All Jews that we can lay our hands on must be destroyed, with NO 
EXCEPTIONS, starting now, during the War."

In April 1945 Himmler agreed with SS Standardenfuhrer Becher [who he had 
recently appointed State Special Commissioner in view of the critical 
sanitary and accomodation situation in the Concentration Camps] who   
recommended a parley with the allies to hand over Belsen to avert a total 
catastrophe. [B p47] 
Estimated Jews there 39,500. [B p58] 

[Ref: Bridgman, The End of the Holocaust]


Jeff Roberts                    					    
                                        |

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             Thank you for speaking Wolsekian.
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From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 29 21:39:01 PDT 1995
Article: 22891 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!info.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!soap.news.pipex.net!pipex!edi.news.pipex.net!pipex!demon!stumpy.demon.co.uk!Jeff
From: Jeff Roberts 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: AMERICAN TRIALS AT DACHAU - BLOT ON AMERICAN JUSTICE
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 12:53:34 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <148257226wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
Reply-To: Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-Broken-Date: Wednesday, Jun 28, 1995 12.53.34
X-Newsreader: Newswin Alpha 0.7

The change [of public opinion] followed the notorious case of the American 
Dachau Tribunal. This tribunal, which was abolished in December, 1947 had 
tried 1,500 Germans and condemned 420 of them to death. In the autumn of 
that year Dachau justice became the subject of a commission of investigation 
under Judge Gordon Simpson of the Texas Supreme Court. The commission 
recommended that 29 men who were still under sentence of death should be 
reprieved, and it declared that statements had been obtained both from 
defendants and witnesses by highly questionable means.                      
 

[Reitlinger The Final Solution p548] 



The book INNOCENT AT DACHAU by J Halow, is recommended, as an insight into 
the "highy questionable means" used at the "trials".

It is available from the 
Institute for Historical Review, P.O Box 2719, Newport Beach, CA 92659



-- 
Jeff Roberts                    					    
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What the state has is theft, and what it says is lies - Nietzsche
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From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 29 21:39:04 PDT 1995
Article: 22892 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!info.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!soap.news.pipex.net!pipex!edi.news.pipex.net!pipex!demon!stumpy.demon.co.uk!Jeff
From: Jeff Roberts 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: ONE OF THE MOST DISGRACEFUL PIECES OF LEGISLATION EVER
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 09:04:16 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <167524499wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
Reply-To: Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-Broken-Date: Wednesday, Jun 28, 1995 09.04.16
X-Newsreader: Newswin Alpha 0.7

Britains First War Crimes Trial to Go Ahead at the old Bailey Early Next 
Year, said the front page story in The Independent on 22 May 1995. The Daily 
Mail, three days later, named Alexander Schweidler, 71, Anthony Gecas, 77, 
and Siemon Serafimowicz, 83, as three men likely to be charged with Nazi war 
crimes early next year. The Independent on Sunday on 28 May named Siemon 
Serafimowicz, 84, a retired carpenter living in Banstead, Surrey, as the man 
to be charged with war crimes next year.
Six months earlier, on 18 December I994 the Mail on Sunday reported that a 
definite decision about bringing to trial three suspected Nazis would 
be made in February 1995. 
Six months earlier in June 1994 the Sunday Express reported that an 
all-party War Crimes Group had demanded the war crimes trials start in 1994 
or not at all.
A year earlier on 18 March 1993 The Times ran a story with the headline 
Nazi War Crimes Trials to Start This Year. Whatever power the Press has 
in this country, they have had no influence in getting a single war 
crime trial started, in spite of repeated reports over three years that 
these ghoulish affairs were just around the corner. When I asked a spokesman 
for the Crown Prosecution Service if he could confirm the reports 
that these war crimes trials would definitely begin next year, he 
said: "The reports are pure speculation. You can take your choice of 
whether they are 100 per cent accurate or 100 per cent inaccurate.
Who then is peddling these phoney bulletins to responsible newspapers? 
Why are they continually popping up in the news with not a single 
credible bit of information to back them up? Can it be that the whole 
shameful business is about to collapse and interested parties are 
trying to prevent that happening by putting out false news claims that they 
are about to start? Since the War Crimes Act was passed in 1991, 
against fierce opposition in the Lords, it has been recognised by those 
concerned with the integrity of British justice that this is one of the 
most disgraceful pieces of legislation ever to reach the statute books. 
It tramples into the dust two major tenets of our law. It is 
retrospective legislation which makes someone a criminal for an act 
that was not legally criminal when it was committed.It also arrogantly 
claims for our courts the right to try someone who was not a British citizen 
for a crime committed against a non-British person in a foreign country like 
Byelorussia over which we have no jurisdiction. Imagine the clamour 
that would be raised it the French claimed the right to try an Englishman 
for killing a Bolivian in Japan. The devious excuse for this 
legislation is that the crimes were so horrible that the morality of British 
justice ought not to prevail. So far, a war crimes unit has not found 
enough evidence that would be acceptable in a British court to charge a 
single one of the 343 investigated cases so far. Almost 6 million has been 
wasteon thifruitless exercise and that amount will be quintupled if 
ever a trial is held. As if the very legislation itself did not make a 
mockery of time-honoured concepts of British jurisprudence, we 
have even abandoned the treasured principle that no one should be 
publicly accused of a crime before he has been tried and found guilty.

[continues in next posting] 



-- 
Jeff Roberts                    					    
                                        |

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             Examine the contents, not the Bottle. - The Talmud 
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From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 29 21:39:06 PDT 1995
Article: 22893 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!info.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!soap.news.pipex.net!pipex!edi.news.pipex.net!pipex!demon!stumpy.demon.co.uk!Jeff
From: Jeff Roberts 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Paul Rassinier
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 14:06:36 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <859384596wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <803474777snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> 
Reply-To: Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-Broken-Date: Wednesday, Jun 28, 1995 14.06.36
X-Newsreader: Newswin Alpha 0.7

In article:   dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) 
writes:

> I repeat my original question: did he have a Ph.D, and did he teach in a 
> univeristy? In most countries,  this is what is meant by "professor".
> 
> Simple question, waiting for a simple answer.

You could always do your own research, Mr Keren, instead of expecting us to 
become your research assistants. 

>From  the Encyclopedia Universalis Paris 1989 p1004. There is a long article 
about "Revisionnisme" which mentions Rassinier. 
It says "A la meme periode, parti d'un engagement politique contraire, un 
instituteur de Belfort, Paul Rassinier (1906-1967) ecrit le premier (passage 
de la ligne, 1948) d'une serie de livres.....

After a while, the article mentions the words when speaking of Robert 
Faurisson "Lui, aussi professeur de litterature a l'universite de Lyon...

This caused some confusion among the frenchies at the French Insitute 
as one said it meant that Rassinier ALSO was a professeur at the U of Lyon, 
while another said it COULD mean that. 

I'll post the article, when I get time. 


-- 
Jeff Roberts                    					    
                                        |

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             Thank you for speaking my language.
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From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 29 21:39:09 PDT 1995
Article: 22894 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!info.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!edi.news.pipex.net!pipex!demon!stumpy.demon.co.uk!Jeff
From: Jeff Roberts 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: THIS IS A FAIR TRIAL BY THE POLISH COMMUNISTS
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 19:53:42 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 73
Message-ID: <130624223wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <638824296wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> <3sf52b$sg7@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <860803002wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> <3snoks$o2g@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
Reply-To: Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-Broken-Date: Tuesday, Jun 27, 1995 19.53.42
X-Newsreader: Newswin Alpha 0.7

In article: <3snoks$o2g@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>  kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca 
(Ken McVay OBC) writes:
Jeff Roberts asked me to comment upon the following:
 
>>> "Bauer reports the fate of hundreds of Jews who had been persuaded by  
>>> a repersentative of the Polish government to return 'home'. At the 
>>> border they were met by a government official who notified them that 
>>> they had been SENTENCED TO DEATH for COLLABORATING with the 
>>> enemy. In view of the victory, however the head of state had consented  
>>> to commute their sentence and they would be accordingly be permitted  
>>> to expiate their crimes by three years of hard labour or army service. 
>>> The men were forcibly separated from their families and children, loaded 
>>> into trucks and driven away.......Those who managed to get away 
>>> returned to the [DP?] camps in order to warn their bethren and prevent 
>>> them from meeting a slimilar fate."
>>> [Bauer, The Organization of the Holocaust Survivors, P134]
>>> Cited in 'The End of the Holocaust' Jon Bridgman  p76.
 
>>> There was no testimony, nor any trial, so there's no transcripts. 
>>> The Jews were simply NOTIFIED of their guilt. 
 
K> Precisely my point. You asked, specifically, what I thought of some
> testimony, even though you provided none. I simply pointed out the
> obvious: since you had posted none, I could not comment. Nothing in
> the extract you provided said that there was no trial and/or no
> testimony. If you want to play word games, fine, but don't ask me to
> comment upon something you have not provided for me.
> You did not ask me to comment on the extract. You asked me what I
> thought of _testimony_, but gave no evidence of same.
> What evidence can you provide, for instance, that there was none? In
> absentia trials are not unusual, so it is quite possible that a
> trial was held, testimony given (however worthless or valuable it
> might have been), and judgements rendered.

J> Well, its quite possible that a trial was held, and testimony given, and 
it's quite possible the testimony was worthless or valuable and it's quite 
possible that judgements were rendered....    

K> I believe in the value of the convergence of evidence, no matter where
it may come from. 

And the credibility of the source it's coming from, isn't that a factor?

> (By the way, would you be kind enough to post the article where I said 
> that all evidence from the Polish Communists is complete valid? I'd love 
> to see it.)

What article?  My words were "re-affirm your belief" which is the impression 
your articles give me, as you seem to have complete confidence in the 
validity of Polish Communist evidence.
If not, can you give examples of what Polish Communist evidence you regard 
as not valid?

> Was there some sort of point you were trying to make with this
> silliness, sir?

Well, there was [it was the credibility of Polish Communists as JUST 
judges], but you completely missed it. I'll wrap it in a [non-literal] brick 
next time. 


-- 
Jeff Roberts                    					    
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      Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies.  

                              Nietzsche

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From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 30 15:16:13 PDT 1995
Article: 22911 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!unixg.ubc.ca!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!caen!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!cam.news.pipex.net!pipex!soap.news.pipex.net!pipex!edi.news.pipex.net!pipex!demon!stumpy.demon.co.uk!Jeff
From: Jeff Roberts 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ONE OF THE MOST DISGRACEFUL PIECES OF LEGISLATION EVER
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 18:07:26 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <476185387wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <167524499wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
Reply-To: Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-Broken-Date: Wednesday, Jun 28, 1995 18.07.26
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Continued....

The name Siemon Serafimowicz, with his photograph, has become a regular 
feature of these stories. Since he was first interrogated in November 1993, 
he and his family have undergone the humiliation of him being  publicly 
branded a mass murderer without any means of redress except a libel action. 
At his age and with his limited financial resources he could not possibly 
bring actions for defamation against powerful newspapers. It is interesting 
that although he is free to leave the country which would leave the war 
crimes unit with a lot of expensive egg on its face. He has chosen not to do 
so because he insists he is innocent.
In the debate in the Lords, the most learned judges in the land gave it as 
their opinion that 50 years after these horrendous deeds were done, the 
possibility of getting a conviction was practically nil. Because of the 
fragility of such dated evidence and the possibilities of mistaken 
identities, recent trials in Canada, Australia and Israel have had to be 
abandoned. The Scots have given up the chase.
Why then do we go on with this expensive and wasteful charade? Since justice 
delayed is justice denied. another principle of legal morality has to be 
jettisoned.
Undoubtedly the pursuit of vengeance rather than justice motivates those 
clamouring for these trials to go on. But an even more powerful excuse for 
them is the need to save the faces of so many who clamoured for them to take 
place. Among those whose faces it is hoped will be saved by a trial are Lady 
Thatcher, who was conscious of the sensitivities of the many Jews in her 
Finchley constituency; the MPs who allowed their emotions to conquer their 
reason when they supported the War Crimes Bill; the Jewish pressure groups 
who have become insensitive to the anti-Semitism they are fostering by their 
refusal to allow charity and forgiveness to be displayed as a Jewish virtue.
It is about time we recognised that an abortive trial costing 30 million 
that is bound to end in an acquittal or the death of the accused before it 
is over, is too expensive and humiliating a process to be undertaken to save 
a few  vengeful faces.

Milton Shulman  [ Evening Standard  2th June page 28]	


 
Jeff Roberts                    					    
                                         |
 
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              Examine the contents, not the Bottle. - The Talmud 
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