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Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 17:59:50 -0800
From: zundel-repost@alpha.c2.org (E. Zundel Repost)
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Organization: The Jooooooooooooooooooish CaBaL that Censors Everybody (tm) III
Subject: 961214: The teeth of Mrs. Aristotle
X-Original-Subject: ZGram - December 14, 1996 - "The teeth of Mrs. Aristotle"
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The following propaganda is reposted to public forums by an automated
script in the interest of public oversight. As a general rule, it is not
safe to assume that anything following the BEGIN ZUNDELGRAM MESSAGE
delimiter is true. Said material is Copyright 1996 Ingrid Rimland, posted
by permission (see ZGram 961208). These four header paragraphs are not.

I firmly believe that since it is not only unwise but impossible to censor
such material, the best response is to facilitate the public exposure and
refutation of same in appropriate forums, and to educate children to think
critically about racialist propaganda and disinformation such as the
below. If you have a different view, please post publicly or email me,
rcgraves@ix.netcom.com.

In my opinion, the best resource available on the net for researching and
countering this material is the Nizkor Project, whose objectives you may
read at http://www.nizkor.org/objectives.html. For keyword and concept
searches of material on Nizkor, see http://search.nizkor.org/search.html.
Nizkor now has a mirror site in Germany, http://www1.de.nizkor.org/nizkor/

Please contribute to the global conversation by following up to this post
with corrections of any errors or lies in Ingrid's Zundelgram that have not
already been pointed out. Header text last updated Mon, Dec 9, 1996.

------------ BEGIN ZUNDELGRAM MESSAGE ------------

December 14, 1996

Good Morning from the Zundelsite:

We are still having unbelievable computer/Network problems and no idea what
it is.  Hang in there - and consider this another "emergency" ZGram just so
you know I do not want to miss a day.  Here goes:

One of my fervent wishes is that the engineering community world-wide is
going to kneel into the murky matter of the Holocaust and decide once and
for all and as loudly as they can that it is OVER.  Science cannot be
suspended, not even for the "Nazis."

Meanwhile, off and on, I get a letter from a lone wolf somewhere who  has
decided to get out his scratch pad and do a few calculations.  I have no
way of knowing if he is close or not with what he wrote below, but what he
has to say is food for thought for other engineers.

(He is still working off old data - 4 million dead at Auschwitz versus the
"official" 1.1 (?) million, but even so . . . -  was it not only yesterday
when we believed such nonsense?)

Here is what he shipped to me:

"I am a mechanical engineer, and have principally worked in the materials
handling field. Having mega doses of "Holocaust" force-fed to me via my
visual and audio senses, I have decided to review the available data from a
standpoint of having to engineer such a project.

Let us examine the claim that 4 million Jews perished at Auschwitz.

At the close of the war (1945), there were 15 (5 sets of 3 each) crematoria
found at Auschwitz by the Allies. I checked a local undertaker and also a
crematoria and they informed me that it takes 4-6 hours to cremate a human
body. Given an average of 5 hours each, a maximum of 75 bodies could be
disposed of in a given day.

Remarkably, 4,000,000/75 equals 53,333 days or about 146 years.

This means that the Germans could not have finished the job until the year
2091, and would need another 96 years (as of 1995).

Proper engineering of this project requires a capacity of 1.3 million/yr.
or about 3,560/day. As earlier stated before, the crematoria have a
capacity of about 75/day. so that approximately 700+ crematoria would be
required. Of course, nothing of the kind was found.

Now, 3,560/day meant approximately 445,000 lbs of carcasses (@ 125 lbs.)
would have to be efficiently managed. Effective management of this type of
tonnage would require automated conveying equipment similar to a trolley
conveyor found in meat packing establishments. We are talking about 445,000
lbs (220 tons) a day. There is no way that this much material could be
handled without automated conveying equipment. Even a meat packing plant
1/10th the capacity would have to shut down without it's conveyors. Of
course, no such conveyors were in evidence.

It takes the BTU equivalent of 200 lbs. (1/10th ton) of coal to cremate a
human body. Therefore, approximately 800 million pounds or 400,000 tons of
coal would be required. It would strain credulity to believe that Hitler
would commit this amount of resource energy to the cremation of Jews during
wartime especially when they were capable of converting coal to various
other fuels.

Approximately 1/10th the body weight is converted to ash so that there
should be 25,000 tons of ash remaining. Where is it?

If the bodies were not cremated, there should be an incredible 500 million
pounds or 250,000 tons of carcasses about. Where are they?

Consider the following: A cubic foot of water weighs 62.5 lbs. A human of
125 lbs. would displace about 2 cu. ft., actually a bit more since they
float. The claim of 4,000,000 dead means that about 8,000,000 cu. ft. of
humans were disposed of. For the sake of argument, lets pile them in the
shape of a pyramid. Given the volume of a pyramid as the base times the
height divided by 3, a pyramid of 288 x 288 x 289 (ft.) would accommodate
the Jewish victims of Auschwitz.

Similar sized pyramids can be found in Egypt. The Great Pyramids of Gizeh
are Menkaure, Khafre, and the Great Cheops. The pile of Jews would be in
size, in between Menkaure and Khafre. Actually, the pyramid would be
greater since this represents perfectly compressed corpses. I suspect that
the actual size would approach the size of Khafre due to air spaces etc.
The Pyramids are clearly visible from outer space. Can you believe that
this pile of rotten corpses (similar in size to the Great Pyramids of
Gizeh) could be somehow be overlooked?

In 1991, the Russians released captured German records of operations at
Auschwitz. The records show a death toll of 74,000 of a wide myriad of
ethnic backgrounds. As we saw above, the crematoria had a capacity of 15 a
day. Given a maximum of 1,000 days, Auschwitz could have handled 75,000
which is in keeping with expected deaths.

Nothing above is meant to diminish the terror and tragedy of what took
place at Auschwitz, it is merely an examination from an engineering
standpoint.

The claim of 4 million at Auschwitz is not even a good lie. It is not even
a bad lie. In order for it to be a lie at all, it must have some
believability. This claim has none.

Some time ago, I read of the Anne Frank Diary hoax and how her Father,
Otto, had plagiarized another literary work and palmed it off as his
daughter's. At that time I was disturbed that a human could descend to such
a vile endeavor as to make a buck off his dead daughter.

Today, I can only begin to tell you of the utter revulsion I experienced
when I realized the mathematical and physical impossibility of the
"Holocaust".

The hatred in the hearts of the perpetrators of this myth many times
exceeds their ill gotten gains."

(Name withheld)

Thought for the Day:

"Aristotle could have avoided the mistake of thinking that women have fewer
teeth than men by the simple device of asking Mrs. Aristotle to open her
mouth."

Bertrand Russell




________
________
________ The Zundelsite can be found at
http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/


------------ END ZUNDELGRAM MESSAGE ------------






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From: christ@adnc.com (Chris Winkler)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel
Subject: Re: 961214: The teeth of Mrs. Aristotle
Date: 22 Dec 1996 01:14:41 GMT
Organization: Truth Inc.
Lines: 140
Message-ID: 
References:   <598208$gvv@access5.digex.net> <599dul$fou@Networking.Stanford.EDU> <32d8fcc4.15401811@news.mbay.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.158.3.85

In article <32d8fcc4.15401811@news.mbay.net>, rhino@mbay.net (Titan White)
wrote:

> rcgraves@ix.netcom.com (Rich Graves) wrote:
> 
> >mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) writes:
> >>In article ,
> >>Jamie McCarthy  wrote:
> >>>It turned out crackers had broken into webcom.com this weekend and fried
> >>>their site, inconveniencing (reportedly) 3000 customers, of which the
> >>>Zsite is one.
> >>
> >>    How much do you want to bet that Ingrid will claim (without evidence)
> >>that the crackers were agents of you-know-who intent on disrupting the
> >>Zundelsite?
> >
> >No fair. She already has.
> >
> >(Or did you mean you-know-WHO?)
> >
> >-rich
> 
> Do you have anything to say about the CONTENT of the zundelsite posts,
> or, like some yapping little shitzu, do you intend to just keep
> running around its legs, spraying piss-spittle from your overburdened
> bladder?
> 
> titan

Nizkor has nothing relevent to say about the zundelsite. They can't. The
truth hurts. They can't even come up with the 6 million names for a
monument in Germany that puts one name on a plaque. 

They can only assinate your character & call you names. I was bombed with
over 1,000 bogus emails from someone who would rather throw rocks from a
distance, instead of fighting fact to face like a man. The little coward
will be paid back by karma, who has a habit of paying you back 100x worse
than the misdeed you comitted.

Nizkor, can you answer the following figures put together by an engineer?
I want a clean debate.

christ
----------------------

"I am a mechanical engineer, and have principally worked in the materials
handling field. Having mega doses of "Holocaust" force-fed to me via my
visual and audio senses, I have decided to review the available data from a
standpoint of having to engineer such a project.

Let us examine the claim that 4 million Jews perished at Auschwitz.

At the close of the war (1945), there were 15 (5 sets of 3 each) crematoria
found at Auschwitz by the Allies. I checked a local undertaker and also a
crematoria and they informed me that it takes 4-6 hours to cremate a human
body. Given an average of 5 hours each, a maximum of 75 bodies could be
disposed of in a given day.

Remarkably, 4,000,000/75 equals 53,333 days or about 146 years.

This means that the Germans could not have finished the job until the year
2091, and would need another 96 years (as of 1995).

Proper engineering of this project requires a capacity of 1.3 million/yr.
or about 3,560/day. As earlier stated before, the crematoria have a
capacity of about 75/day. so that approximately 700+ crematoria would be
required. Of course, nothing of the kind was found.

Now, 3,560/day meant approximately 445,000 lbs of carcasses (@ 125 lbs.)
would have to be efficiently managed. Effective management of this type of
tonnage would require automated conveying equipment similar to a trolley
conveyor found in meat packing establishments. We are talking about 445,000
lbs (220 tons) a day. There is no way that this much material could be
handled without automated conveying equipment. Even a meat packing plant
1/10th the capacity would have to shut down without it's conveyors. Of
course, no such conveyors were in evidence.

It takes the BTU equivalent of 200 lbs. (1/10th ton) of coal to cremate a
human body. Therefore, approximately 800 million pounds or 400,000 tons of
coal would be required. It would strain credulity to believe that Hitler
would commit this amount of resource energy to the cremation of Jews during
wartime especially when they were capable of converting coal to various
other fuels.

Approximately 1/10th the body weight is converted to ash so that there
should be 25,000 tons of ash remaining. Where is it?

If the bodies were not cremated, there should be an incredible 500 million
pounds or 250,000 tons of carcasses about. Where are they?

Consider the following: A cubic foot of water weighs 62.5 lbs. A human of
125 lbs. would displace about 2 cu. ft., actually a bit more since they
float. The claim of 4,000,000 dead means that about 8,000,000 cu. ft. of
humans were disposed of. For the sake of argument, lets pile them in the
shape of a pyramid. Given the volume of a pyramid as the base times the
height divided by 3, a pyramid of 288 x 288 x 289 (ft.) would accommodate
the Jewish victims of Auschwitz.

Similar sized pyramids can be found in Egypt. The Great Pyramids of Gizeh
are Menkaure, Khafre, and the Great Cheops. The pile of Jews would be in
size, in between Menkaure and Khafre. Actually, the pyramid would be
greater since this represents perfectly compressed corpses. I suspect that
the actual size would approach the size of Khafre due to air spaces etc.
The Pyramids are clearly visible from outer space. Can you believe that
this pile of rotten corpses (similar in size to the Great Pyramids of
Gizeh) could be somehow be overlooked?

In 1991, the Russians released captured German records of operations at
Auschwitz. The records show a death toll of 74,000 of a wide myriad of
ethnic backgrounds. As we saw above, the crematoria had a capacity of 15 a
day. Given a maximum of 1,000 days, Auschwitz could have handled 75,000
which is in keeping with expected deaths.

Nothing above is meant to diminish the terror and tragedy of what took
place at Auschwitz, it is merely an examination from an engineering
standpoint.

The claim of 4 million at Auschwitz is not even a good lie. It is not even
a bad lie. In order for it to be a lie at all, it must have some
believability. This claim has none.

Some time ago, I read of the Anne Frank Diary hoax and how her Father,
Otto, had plagiarized another literary work and palmed it off as his
daughter's. At that time I was disturbed that a human could descend to such
a vile endeavor as to make a buck off his dead daughter.

Today, I can only begin to tell you of the utter revulsion I experienced
when I realized the mathematical and physical impossibility of the
"Holocaust".

The hatred in the hearts of the perpetrators of this myth many times
exceeds their ill gotten gains."
-----------------------

copied w/o permission from ZGram - December 14, 1996

=====
If history has taught us anything it is that the truth will be revised.
---
Jews are sneaky bastards, always relying on over inflated facts and figures.





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From: rcgraves@disposable.com (Rich Graves)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel
Subject: Re: 961214: The teeth of Mrs. Aristotle
Date: 21 Dec 1996 18:50:19 -0800
Organization: Fans of Nizkor, http://www.nizkor.org/objectives.html
Lines: 21
Sender: llurch@Networking.Stanford.EDU
Message-ID: <59i7lb$7sn@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: networking.stanford.edu

christ@adnc.com (Chris Winkler) writes:
>Nizkor, can you answer the following figures put together by an engineer?
>I want a clean debate.

There is no "Nizkor," just a bunch of folks. Who answered this in great
detail back in May.

The particular bit of nonsense that you reposted, which was not put
together by an engineer, is answered in several parts at:

 http://search.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/r/rimland.ingrid/science.01
 http://search.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/r/rimland.ingrid/science.02

See also:

 http://search.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/l/lagace.ivan/
-- 
Perhaps this final act was meant          Rich Graves 
To clinch a lifetime's argument  California Institute of International Studies
That nothing comes from violence                            Remember John Hron
And nothing ever could           http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/h/hron-john





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From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel
Subject: Re: 961214: The teeth of Mrs. Aristotle
Date: 22 Dec 1996 14:02:40 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 221
Message-ID: <59k0kg$kjq@access1.digex.net>
References:  <599dul$fou@Networking.Stanford.EDU> <32d8fcc4.15401811@news.mbay.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net

In article ,
Chris Winkler  wrote:
>Nizkor has nothing relevent to say about the zundelsite.

    You have covered all 100+ GB of Nizkor, is that correct?


>They can't. The
>truth hurts. They can't even come up with the 6 million names for a
>monument in Germany that puts one name on a plaque. 

    We can't even come up with one friggin' name for any of the bones in
the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Arlington, VA.  If a whole village was
wiped out, it makes it hard to find the names, as the friends and
neighbors who might have provided them were also wiped out.


>They can only assinate your character & call you names. I was bombed with
>over 1,000 bogus emails from someone who would rather throw rocks from a
>distance, instead of fighting fact to face like a man. The little coward
>will be paid back by karma, who has a habit of paying you back 100x worse
>than the misdeed you comitted.

    Did you save the mail with full headers?  I am quite willing to lend
what help I can, regardless of any disagreements we may have.  Such
stupidity offends me.


>Nizkor, can you answer the following figures put together by an engineer?
>I want a clean debate.

    So do I.  But you should be aware that a clean debate includes no
lying, whether overtly or by omission.  This engineer may have been an
innocent dupe, but the matter of the Anne Frank diary is most certainly
based on a lie.  The other problems could be honest ones based on
ignorance and insufficiently rigorous analysis.


>christ
>----------------------
>
>"I am a mechanical engineer, and have principally worked in the materials
>handling field. Having mega doses of "Holocaust" force-fed to me via my
>visual and audio senses, I have decided to review the available data from a
>standpoint of having to engineer such a project.
>
>Let us examine the claim that 4 million Jews perished at Auschwitz.

    Let's also recognize that this figure, though mentioned at the time,
was rejected by Reitlinger in the '50s, Hilberg in the '60s, and by many
western historians since.  The Communists were the main purveyors of the
four million figure, and they soft-pedaled the Jewish aspect of the
deaths.  The plaques at the site bearing the four million figure said
people, not Jews.

    The high-end figure now commonly accepted is 1.5 million.  Pressac
puts it well under one million, mainly due to a dispute over how some of
the transportation and registration records are to be interpreted.  I
think Pressac is right - some records which were thought to represent two
separate trains really cover the same train, and therefore cut in half the
gross number of deportees represented by those records.  Since the death
toll at Auschwitz was calculated by subtracting survivors and those known
to have been transferred elsewhere from the number shipped in, reducing
the number shipped in reduces the death toll.


>At the close of the war (1945), there were 15 (5 sets of 3 each) crematoria
>found at Auschwitz by the Allies. I checked a local undertaker and also a
>crematoria and they informed me that it takes 4-6 hours to cremate a human
>body. Given an average of 5 hours each, a maximum of 75 bodies could be
>disposed of in a given day.

    Highly simplistic thinking.  First, different crematoria process at
different rates - some ovens have higher capacities than others.  Second,
a commercial crematorium must take the time to cremate as thoroughly as
possible, one body at a time no matter how large or small, and (this is
important) to completely clean out the ashes from one cremation before
introducing a second body into the retort.

    A man who designs and sells commercial cremation ovens told me that
his product, if forced into service as an incinerator for the disposal of
human bodies with no thought given to dignity of the dead or cosmetic
condition of the ashes (longer burning turns them whiter), would be able
to process one average adult body an hour.  However, in normal use, a
crematorium will take 2-3 hours to process a body using that same model of
oven.

    The true measure of capacity is in weight per hour.  Ten 15-lb infants
can be burned in the same amount of time as one 150-lb adult, if you don't
care about keeping their ashes separate.  Since the victims at Auschwitz
would have been disproportionately old people and children, because they
were useless as slave labor, this is an important consideration.

    Last, it was also reported by both witnesses and a photograph from the
resistance that (as you claim) the number of bodies exceeded the capacity
of the crematoria, and bodies were therefore burned in the open air on
pyres. 



>Now, 3,560/day meant approximately 445,000 lbs of carcasses (@ 125 lbs.)

    Basis for this estimate of average weight?  Remember the skewed
distribution of victims, with a much larger proportion of children. 

    Also, when using the more conventional (but still high) 1.5 million
figure, even over just two years, not three, that is 2,143 per day, not
3,560.  It never ceases to amaze me how tenaciously holocaust
"revisionists" keep attacking the strawman 4,000,000 figure long after its
death was announced in the west. 


>would have to be efficiently managed. Effective management of this type of
>tonnage would require automated conveying equipment similar to a trolley
>conveyor found in meat packing establishments. We are talking about 445,000
>lbs (220 tons) a day. There is no way that this much material could be
>handled without automated conveying equipment.  Even a meat packing plant
>1/10th the capacity would have to shut down without it's conveyors.

    I do not believe that is true.  Rather, it is economically inefficient
to hire enough people to substitute for the conveyors.  But this is not so
much of a problem when you have slave laborers.


>Of
>course, no such conveyors were in evidence.
>
>It takes the BTU equivalent of 200 lbs. (1/10th ton) of coal to cremate a
>human body.

    No source or conditions are given for this figure; I find it difficult
to believe that a materials handling engineer is also a skilled
crematorium operator.  Now, is that figure the total required to bring the
oven up from a cold start to do the first body?  Because once an oven is
going, the body is itself fuel.  The second body does not require the full
200 lbs. if it is introduced into an oven still hot from the previous
cremation.

    The Auschwitz ovens used a multiple-retort design, which feeds
multiple burning chambers from the same oven.  I am not aware of a single
commercial crematorium which uses such equipment.  I cannot say what fuel
efficiency this gains, but it seems likely that it would provide some -
else why bother to design such a model in the first place? 


>Therefore, approximately 800 million pounds or 400,000 tons of
>coal would be required. It would strain credulity to believe that Hitler
>would commit this amount of resource energy to the cremation of Jews during
>wartime especially when they were capable of converting coal to various
>other fuels.

    It strains credulity to believe that Hitler would commit the resources
he did to rounding up the Jews in the first place.  But somehow
"revisionists"  who make arguments about how illogical such-and-such would
have been never seem to be able to grasp the big one above.  So do we
conclude that the concentration camps themselves were hoaxes? 



>In 1991, the Russians released captured German records of operations at
>Auschwitz. The records show a death toll of 74,000 of a wide myriad of
>ethnic backgrounds.

    I believe you will find that those records are not complete - that is,
they do not even cover all the months of operation.


>As we saw above, the crematoria had a capacity of 15 a
>day.

[Note: '15' is a typo for 75 above.]

>Given a maximum of 1,000 days, Auschwitz could have handled 75,000
>which is in keeping with expected deaths.

    There were 46 ovens in Birkenau and six more in Auschwitz for a total
of 52.  You are telling us that each oven could handle only 1-1/2 bodies
in a 24-hour period.  Even on the six-hour figure given above, and with 12
hours downtime, the minimum capacity should have been 104 a day. 
Something seems very wrong with this engineer's math.  But as I have
discussed above, there is no reason to think that the six-hour figure had
any relevance to the operations at Auschwitz, and several reasons to think
otherwise. 

    And this is before we consider any disposal of bodies on pyres.


>Nothing above is meant to diminish the terror and tragedy of what took
>place at Auschwitz, it is merely an examination from an engineering
>standpoint.
>
>The claim of 4 million at Auschwitz is not even a good lie. It is not even
>a bad lie. In order for it to be a lie at all, it must have some
>believability. This claim has none.

    And serious Western historians have agreed since Reitlinger in the
'50s.  I think that strawman is dead.


>Some time ago, I read of the Anne Frank Diary hoax and how her Father,
>Otto, had plagiarized another literary work and palmed it off as his
>daughter's. At that time I was disturbed that a human could descend to such
>a vile endeavor as to make a buck off his dead daughter.

    Unfortunately our revisionist engineer somehow missed the extensive
forensic testing done on the diary by the Netherlands State Forensic
Institute which conclusively showed that the diary was, indeed, written by
Anne Frank.  It appears that Robert Faurisson lied, to put it bluntly.
There were some ballpoint pen markings, but they were very few, clearly in
a different hand, and were added during the preparation of the diaries for
publication.  Any honest person would have recognized and reported that.

    Anyway, there are some answers for you.  You may accept them, you may
not, but I hope you now at least accept that you were quite wrong when you
said that there was no answer possible to the Zundelsite.

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein                      The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420                       Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210            position of my employer.





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From: jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel
Subject: Re: 961214: The teeth of Mrs. Aristotle
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 16:46:16 -0500
Organization: Voyager Information Networks, Inc.
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mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

> Chris Winkler  wrote:

> >Nizkor has nothing relevent to say about the zundelsite.

>     You have covered all 100+ GB of Nizkor, is that correct?

Megabytes, Mike, not gigabytes.  It's going to take a little time to
hit 100 gigabytes.  :-)

We're up to 300-400 MB now, depending on how you count it.

> >I was bombed with
> >over 1,000 bogus emails
> 
>     Did you save the mail with full headers?  I am quite willing to lend
> what help I can, regardless of any disagreements we may have.  Such
> stupidity offends me.

And it offends me too -- I, too, will lend a hand to try to track down
the perpetrators responsible.  Send me two or three of the full headers
(in particular, Message-ID, Date, and all Received headers) and I'll be
more than happy to do my best.

[Mr. Stein's analysis of the Zsite's latest gibberish deleted]

>     Anyway, there are some answers for you.  You may accept them, you may
> not, but I hope you now at least accept that you were quite wrong when you
> said that there was no answer possible to the Zundelsite.

Indeed.

Posted/emailed.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
 jamie@voyager.net        Co-Webmaster of http://www.nizkor.org/





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From: christ@adnc.com (Chris Winkler)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel
Subject: Re: 961214: The teeth of Mrs. Aristotle
Date: 22 Dec 1996 18:00:59 GMT
Organization: Truth Inc.
Lines: 44
Message-ID: 
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NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.158.3.76

In article <59i7lb$7sn@Networking.Stanford.EDU>, rcgraves@disposable.com
(Rich Graves) wrote:

> christ@adnc.com (Chris Winkler) writes:
> >Nizkor, can you answer the following figures put together by an engineer?
> >I want a clean debate.
> 
> There is no "Nizkor," just a bunch of folks. Who answered this in great
> detail back in May.
> 
> The particular bit of nonsense that you reposted, which was not put
> together by an engineer, is answered in several parts at:
> 
>  http://search.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/r/rimland.ingrid/science.01
>  http://search.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/r/rimland.ingrid/science.02
> 
> See also:
> 
>  http://search.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/l/lagace.ivan/
> -- 
> Perhaps this final act was meant          Rich Graves 
> To clinch a lifetime's argument  California Institute of International Studies
> That nothing comes from violence                            Remember John Hron
> And nothing ever could           http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/h/hron-john

I don't buy the arguements you list in science .01 above. First off, what
about the bones. Sure the meat & fat will burn in 23-30 minutes. But bones
take a long time. just look at any murder scene where someone tries to
burn a body. It only gets scorched. It takes tremendous ammts. of heat.
Also the bodies don't self-combust. Where did you find that nonsense.
There wasn't any fat on the dead, they were fed a starvation diet. Humans
don''t self-combust. Also I can't accept the fact that the fires were self
perpetuating. Give me a break. You make the point the bodies were the fuel
and no additional fuel was needed. 
that doesn't make sense.

You are right about a lot of mud slinging & hate here. If you even dare to
raise any questions, your group, just a "bunch of folks" will call them
every name in the book. Your group is alive and well and has an agenda.
It's $$$$. I don't have the time to keep coming back here and debating
these facts. Seems Nizkor has the money and time to keep this going. Me, I
have to pay the rent.

Chris





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From: jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel
Subject: Re: 961214: The teeth of Mrs. Aristotle
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 17:36:31 -0500
Organization: Voyager Information Networks, Inc.
Lines: 85
Message-ID: 
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NNTP-Posting-Host: vixa.voyager.net

christ@adnc.com (Chris Winkler) wrote:

> rcgraves@disposable.com (Rich Graves) wrote:
> 
> > The particular bit of nonsense that you reposted, which was not put
> > together by an engineer, is answered in several parts at:
> > 
> >  http://search.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/r/rimland.ingrid/science.01
> >  http://search.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/r/rimland.ingrid/science.02

> I don't buy the arguements you list in science.01 above. First off, what
> about the bones. Sure the meat & fat will burn in 23-30 minutes. But bones
> take a long time.

An evidenceless assertion, which contradicts the evidence gathered by
(among others) John Morris and Mike Stein.  The simple fact is that, if
you don't care too much about the looks of the ashes, and don't mind if
some big chunks of bone are left, 20-30 minutes is quite possible. This
confirmed by crematory operators.

> just look at any murder scene where someone tries to
> burn a body. It only gets scorched. It takes tremendous ammts. of heat.

Like about 1000 C -- yes, crematory ovens do generate such heat, unlike
when people just pour a little lighter fluid on a single body.

> Also the bodies don't self-combust. Where did you find that nonsense.

Another evidenceless assertion.  The facts are that fat and meat burn,
and generate heat.

> There wasn't any fat on the dead, they were fed a starvation diet.

Even so, the proteins in the rest of the body burn, and generate heat.
Their ignition point is around 800 C if I remember correctly.  Besides,
many of the dead at Auschwitz were new arrivals who hadn't been worked
on a starvation diet and were more or less normal weight.

> Humans
> don''t self-combust.

Evidenceless assertion.

> Also I can't accept the fact that the fires were self
> perpetuating. Give me a break.

Whether or not you can accept that fact is not something I have any
control over.  "Give me a break" is not an argument.

> You make the point the bodies were the fuel
> and no additional fuel was needed. 
> that doesn't make sense.

It does indeed make sense.  You may want to consult a chemistry class
and pay attention to the difference between an exothermic and an
endothermic reaction.  Then read science.02, in which Rich Green, a
graduate student in chemistry, gives you facts and figures to
demonstrate why no additional fuel was required.

> You are right about a lot of mud slinging & hate here. If you even dare to
> raise any questions, your group, just a "bunch of folks" will call them
> every name in the book.

(A) you're not just raising questions you're making assertions for which
you have no evidence, and (B) who's calling you names?  Not me. Not Rich
Graves.  We're refuting your falsehoods with truth.  I know you'd _like_
us to call you names, but I'm afraid we won't oblige.

> Your group is alive and well and has an agenda.
> It's $$$$. I don't have the time to keep coming back here and debating
> these facts. Seems Nizkor has the money and time to keep this going. Me, I
> have to pay the rent.

As the author of the parts of science.01 to which you refer -- yeah, I
have to pay the rent too.  As I have to state every few months, I have
never accepted one thin dime for my thousands of hours of work
combatting Holocaust-deniers.

In other words, you're dead wrong on every single point you raised in
this article.  Sorry.

Posted/emailed.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
 jamie@voyager.net        Co-Webmaster of http://www.nizkor.org/





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From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel
Subject: Re: 961214: The teeth of Mrs. Aristotle
Date: 22 Dec 1996 14:56:43 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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In article ,
Chris Winkler  wrote:
>In article <59i7lb$7sn@Networking.Stanford.EDU>, rcgraves@disposable.com
>(Rich Graves) wrote:
>
>> The particular bit of nonsense that you reposted, which was not put
>> together by an engineer, is answered in several parts at:
>> 
>>  http://search.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/r/rimland.ingrid/science.01
>>  http://search.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/r/rimland.ingrid/science.02
>> 
>> See also:
>> 
>>  http://search.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/l/lagace.ivan/
>> -- 
>
>I don't buy the arguements you list in science .01 above. First off, what
>about the bones. Sure the meat & fat will burn in 23-30 minutes. But bones
>take a long time. just look at any murder scene where someone tries to
>burn a body. It only gets scorched. It takes tremendous ammts. of heat.

    In fact, it takes more than even a commercial crematorium can
generate.  They just fracture at best.  Even at a commercial site they
have to be pulverized either mechanically or manually - as witnesses
testified was done at Auschwitz.


>Also the bodies don't self-combust. Where did you find that nonsense.

    I think you misunderstand.  (It might not have been the world's best
phrasing.)  Rather, bodies take a great deal of heat to begin ignition,
_but_ once that initial energy loan is made, they pay it back with
interest.  The Topf patent gives a total calorie figure for a 70kg human
body; I think there's a copy somewhere on Nizkor. 


>There wasn't any fat on the dead, they were fed a starvation diet.

    The dead who were in the camps for a while, yes.  But the people
killed immediately on arrival, especially the Hungarians, had normal body
fat.


>Humans
>don''t self-combust. Also I can't accept the fact that the fires were self
>perpetuating. Give me a break. You make the point the bodies were the fuel
>and no additional fuel was needed. 
>that doesn't make sense.

    It does if you consider the fact that a) the human body is itself fuel
once it hits ignition temperature, and b) the initial coke load of an oven
isn't quite spent when the first body goes in.  Walter Mueller said that
after the third body there had been enough heat loss from the oven to
require a little refueling, but not the same amount as was needed to start
the first body.

    The "self-combusting" claim is simply that once started, each body
provides enough net energy to ignite the next.  The entire system (oven
and chimney) loses enough to reuqire occasional additional fuel, but
according to what Walter Mueller of Allach said, it's a fairly slow rate
of net loss if you keep the process going continuously.

    Think of a fireplace log.  It is not self-combusting in the sense that
it spontaneously ignites.  You need a match, then tinder, then kindling. 
However, once you get it going, you can then put in a second log and it
will ignite from the energy provided by the first log.  You can repeat
this process indefinitely.  Bodies are not as potent a fuel as logs, but
they do give off more energy in burning than it takes to ignite them.

    The key difference between Auschwitz and a normal crematorium is that
at Auschwitz they did not have to worry about complete separation and
recovery of the ashes.  This large reduction in cleanout time would
greatly reduce the amount of heat lost to the outside environment without
being used to ignite the next body. 


>You are right about a lot of mud slinging & hate here. If you even dare to
>raise any questions, your group, just a "bunch of folks" will call them
>every name in the book.

    I see we were remiss.  You, sir, are a frumious bandersnatch!

    There, _now_ you can say you've been called every name in the book.


>Your group is alive and well and has an agenda.  It's $$$$.

    Speaking only for myself, in the interests of full disclosure I must
report my total compensation received to date for my work for Nizkor: 

    Food and lodging in San Antonio, graciously provided by another member
of the Nizkor volunteer crew who has done fairly well financially (I paid
my own airfare).

    One bottle of Okanagon Springs Porter, courtesy of Ken McVay.  (Very
tasty stuff, I might add.)

    I happen to know that Ken McVay did this for years without getting a
cent, and in fact his recent notoriety is the result of a supporter (who
wishes to remain anonymous) who beat the bushes to try to get him some
assistance in upgrading his ancient equipment. 


>I don't have the time to keep coming back here and debating
>these facts. Seems Nizkor has the money and time to keep this going. Me, I
>have to pay the rent.

    So do I.  But I do give what time I can, and it isn't for money.  (And
what it _is_ for, I suspect, is quite different from what _anyone_
thinks.) 

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein                      The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420                       Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210            position of my employer.





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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel
Subject: Re: 961214: The teeth of Mrs. Aristotle
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 04:58:29 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 142
Message-ID: 
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In article , christ@adnc.com
(Chris Winkler) wrote:

[snip]

> I don't buy the arguements you list in science .01 above. 

> First off, what about the bones. Sure the meat & fat will burn in 23-30 
> minutes. But bones take a long time. just look at any murder scene where 
> someone tries to burn a body. It only gets scorched. It takes tremendous 
> ammts. of heat.

Indeed. The operating instructions for the Topf double-muffle incineration
furnaces used at Auschwitz, for example, states an operating temperature
of between 800¡C and 1100¡C. (cf. Pressac, _Technique_, p.136.) In
contrast, the melting point of copper is 1083¡C. (Ebbing, _General
Chemistry_ (third edition), p.925.)  

> Also the bodies don't self-combust. 

If you meam to say that the combustion of a corpse is _not_ an exothermic
reaction, you are most certainly mistaken. Both the combustion of fat and
protien are exothermic. (cf. Ibid. p.212.) 

> Where did you find that nonsense.

See the cites above. 

> There wasn't any fat on the dead, they were fed a starvation diet. 

Most of those killed on arrival at the death camps (i.e. Aktion Reinhard,
Aktion Ho"ss) were not emaciated. Typically, it was the _muselmans_ who
had been incarcerated at, for example, Auschwitz, who were extremely
emaciated when they were killed (or died) and their corpses incinerated.  

> Humans don''t self-combust.

Humans do not (typically) _spontaneously_ combust. That is different than
the issue of the combustion of corpses being an _exothermic_ reaction.
Again, the combustion of fat and protein is an _exothermic_ reaction.

If they were not, please explain, keeping in mind that the combustion of
fat and protein is _exothermic_, the following from the Topf double-muffle
incineration furnace operating instructions:

"After each incineration, the temperature rises in the furnace. For this
reason, care must be taken that the internal temperature does not rise
above 1100¡C (white heat). (Pressac, _Technique_, p.136.)

> Also I can't accept the fact that the fires were self perpetuating.

Then perhaps you will consider the following eyewitness testimony from
Henryk Tauber, who was a Sonderkammado in Kremas II and V, and who
survived the war and testified at the trial of Ho"ss? To whit:

"At the beginning of the cremation process, the furnaces were heated only
by their fireboxes and the charges burned slowly. Later on, as the
cremations suceeded one another, the furnaces burned thanks to the embers
produced by the combustion of the corpses. So, during the incineration of
fat bodies, the fire were generally extinguised. When the this type of
body was charhed into a hot furnace, fat immediately began to flow into
the ash bin, where it caught fire and started the combustion of the body.
When <> were being cremated, it was necessary to cons6antly
refuel the fireboxes...." (Pressac, _Technique_, p.495; cf. Annex 18 to
Volume XI of the Ho"ss Trial.)

> Give me a break. You make the point the bodies were the fuel and no
additional 
> fuel was needed. that doesn't make sense.

Perhaps the follwing wil help further clarify things for you: 

"[Walter] Mu"ller [of the German engineering firm Allach] claimed that
there was a direct relation between  increased use and increased econmony.
If the cold furnace required 175 kilograms (kg) of coke to start up a new
incineration , it needed only 100 kg if it had been used the day before; a
second and third incineration on the same day would not require any extra
fuel, thanks to the compressed air; and those that followed would only
call for small amounts of extra energy...." (Gutman, _Anatomy_,
pp.186-186.) 

Now, the mention of fuel savings due to the use of "compressed air"
relates to the injecting freash air into the furnace muffle (where the
corpse is incinerated) and thus eliminating the need for the expensive
"economizer" (heat exhanger) that extracted the heat from the combustion
gases and transferred it back into the muffle. (cf. Ibid. pp.183-184.) 

Now, why would injecting fresh air into the _muffle_ of the furnace (and
_not_ the firebox) save fuel (i.e. coke)? Could it be because the increase
of oxygen in the muffle allows the corpse to combust more efficiently?
That this increases the heat energy of the furnace and therefore _reduces_
the amount of fuel (i.e coke) required to keep the furnace at its
operating temperature? 

Of course it does. In fact, the process was so efficient that according to
the Topf double-muffle furnace operating instructions, care needed to be
taken not to _overheat_ the furnace:

" After each incineration, the temperature rises in the furnace. For this
reason, care must be taken that the internal temperature does not rise
above 1100¡C (white heat)... This increase in temperature can be avoided
by introducing additional fresh air." (Pressac, _Technique_, p.136.)

Thus, given all the above, it becomes rather obvious that combustion of
the the victims' corpses acted as a supplemtary source of fuel for the
Topf furnaces and reduced the amount of coke needed to fuel the furnaces. 

> You are right about a lot of mud slinging & hate here. If you even dare to
> raise any questions, your group, just a "bunch of folks" will call them
> every name in the book. 

The fallacy of your claim is, of course, that you have raised several
questions (all erroneous or misinformed, btw) and I did not call you any
names for it. (On the other hane, _you_ seem to feel free to make
unsupported and obviously biased allegations about the Nizkor Project!
Pot-Kettle-Black, Mr. Winkler.) 

> Your group is alive and well and has an agenda.
> It's $$$$. 

And your evidence for this is, Mr. Winkler? What, you don't have any? Tsk tsk.

> I don't have the time to keep coming back here and debating
> these facts. 

What _facts_, Mr. Winkler? I have yet to see you provide any _facts_ as of yet. 

> Seems Nizkor has the money and time to keep this going. Me, I
> have to pay the rent.

Such sour grapes! Tsk tsk. 


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------





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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel
Subject: Re: 961214: The teeth of Mrs. Aristotle
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 07:06:49 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 70
Message-ID: 
References:  <599dul$fou@Networking.Stanford.EDU> <32d8fcc4.15401811@news.mbay.net>  <59i7lb$7sn@Networking.Stanford.EDU>  
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In article ,
jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

> christ@adnc.com (Chris Winkler) wrote:
> 
> > rcgraves@disposable.com (Rich Graves) wrote:
> > 
> > > The particular bit of nonsense that you reposted, which was not put
> > > together by an engineer, is answered in several parts at:
> > > 
> > >  http://search.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/r/rimland.ingrid/science.01
> > >  http://search.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/r/rimland.ingrid/science.02
> 
> > I don't buy the arguements you list in science.01 above. First off, what
> > about the bones. Sure the meat & fat will burn in 23-30 minutes. But bones
> > take a long time.
> 
> An evidenceless assertion, which contradicts the evidence gathered by
> (among others) John Morris and Mike Stein.  The simple fact is that, if
> you don't care too much about the looks of the ashes, and don't mind if
> some big chunks of bone are left, 20-30 minutes is quite possible. This
> confirmed by crematory operators.

Lest we forget, the bones were pulverized to fragments:

"It took about 20 minutes to cremate three corpses in one retort. However,
in their efforts to reduce the number of loadings, prisoners cremated four
to five corpses at one time and extended the cremation time to about 25 to
30 minutes. When the time was up, the next load would be put into the
retort, regardless of the degree of incineration of the preceding load.
The incompletely incinerated bones fell through the grille into the ash
pit, were ground with wooden mortars along with the ashes, then poured
into pits near the crematorium. Next they were removed from the pits and
poured into the Vistula River or nearby ponds. Sometimes they were used to
prepare compost; other times they were used directly to fertilize the
fields of the camp farms." (Gutman, _Anatomy_, p.171.)

Additionally:

Source: "Auschwitz Chronicle, 1939-1945 / Danuta Czech. - 1st American ed.
(ISBN 0-8050-0938-8); p. 642. (Ref: APMO, IZ-13/89, Various Documents of
the Third Reich, p. 205, Invoice Copy for Bookkeeping (origional in BA
Koblenz).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

June 7 [1944]

The management of the crematoriums in Auschwitz II orders four sieves from
the DAW for sifting through human ashes. The sieves are to be equipped
with an iron frame. The openings of the sieve screens are to be 2/5 inch
in size.**

** A former prisoner and member of the Special Squad, Szlama Dragon,
states during the H"oss Trial that the ashes of the burned corpses are
taken from the pits near the crematoriums, ground fine in special mortars,
and taken to the Sola River (APMO, Dpr.-ZO/28a, p. 127). 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------





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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel
Subject: Re: 961214: The teeth of Mrs. Aristotle
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 08:35:16 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 105
Message-ID: 
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In article , christ@adnc.com
(Chris Winkler) wrote:

[snip]

> "I am a mechanical engineer, and have principally worked in the materials
> handling field. 

Translation: Mr. Winkler shovels bullshit. 

> Having mega doses of "Holocaust" force-fed to me via my
> visual and audio senses, I have decided to review the available data from a
> standpoint of having to engineer such a project.

Translation: Mr. Winkler shovels bullshit. 

> Let us examine the claim that 4 million Jews perished at Auschwitz.

Indeed, let's: 

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/4-million-variant
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/4-million-variant-02
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/gambit.001

> 
> At the close of the war (1945), there were 15 (5 sets of 3 each) crematoria
> found at Auschwitz by the Allies. 

No, there were not. The incineration furnaces of Kremas II, III, and IV
were dismantled and removed prior to the Nazis abandoning Auschwitz.
(Thety were reportedly shipped to other concentration camps.) The furnaces
of Krema V were dynamited along with the Krema itself. The only furnaces
that remianed at Auschwitz were those that once operated in Krema I. These
furnaces were dismantled and stored in the Auschwitz Bauhof, found after
the war, and (partially) rebuilt as part of the reconstruction of Krema I
by the Aushwitz-Birkenau State Museum. 

> I checked a local undertaker and also a crematoria and they informed me
that it takes 4-6 hours to cremate a human body.

From the "Internet Cremation Society FAQ:"

"...The temperature at which cremations are done vary based upon the retort
manufacturer, but most machines operate between 1,500 to 1,900 degrees F.
The actual cremation time again varies depending upon the type of machine.
Low capacity retorts take approximately 3 hours to complete a cremation
while high capacity machines takes less than one hour. In addition to the
type of retort, the size of the individual and the number of cremations
conducted during the day also affect the time. For example, in the retort
we operate, the first cremation of the day takes about two hours and the
second takes about an hour. That is because the retort already has a high
internal temperature at the beginning of the second cremation."
 
Dource: http://www.cremation.org:80/faq.shtml#At what temperature

> Given an average of 5 hours each, a maximum of 75 bodies could be
> disposed of in a given day.

[Mr. Winkler's drivel snipped as it has been previously addressed]

> Approximately 1/10th the body weight is converted to ash 

From the "Internet Cremation Society FAQ:"

"...After the cremation process is complete, all that is left is very
brittle bone fragments. Many of the bones are still distinguishable
although not fully intact. Technically, there are no ashes left at all but
the term "ashes" is used to describe what is referred to as cremated
remains or cremains. The pieces of bone fragments are then processed into
a fine powder and placed in the urn selected. What remains after the
cremation process is approximately 5 to 7 pounnds of cremated remains."

Source: http://www.cremation.org:80/faq.shtml#What's left after a

> ...so that there should be 25,000 tons of ash remaining. 

Given that between 1.1 million and 1.5 million people (mostly women and
children) were murdered and incinerated at Auschwitz, that would imply,
assuming 5 pounds of remains per victim, between 2,500 tons and 3,750 tons
of human remains. 

> Where is it?

The remains were generally dumped in the Vistula River, nearby ponds, used
as compost, and spread across the fields of the camp farms around
Auschwitz. (cf. Gutman, _Anantomy_, p.171.) 

> If the bodies were not cremated, there should be an incredible 500 million
> pounds or 250,000 tons of carcasses about. Where are they?

A moot point as the victims of Nazis mass murder _were_ cremated. 

[Mr. Winkler's irrelevant "pyramid" drivel snipped]

[Mr. Winkler's remaining drivel snipped as it has been previously addressed]

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------





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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel
Subject: Re: 961214: The teeth of Mrs. Aristotle
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 06:47:28 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
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In article <59k0kg$kjq@access1.digex.net>, mstein@access1.digex.net
(Michael P. Stein) wrote:

> In article ,
> Chris Winkler  wrote:

[snip]

> >It takes the BTU equivalent of 200 lbs. (1/10th ton) of coal to cremate a
> >human body.
> 
> No source or conditions are given for this figure; 

Walter Mu"ller claimed that a _cold_ furnace's _first_ incineration would
require about 175 kg of coke; a furnace that had been used the day before
would need only 100 kg; that the second and third incinerations on the
same day would not require _any_ additinal coke and that any subsequent
incinerations would require only "small amounts" of coke. (cf. Gutman,
_Anatomy_, pp.185-186.)

Given that at Auschwitz during 1943, for example, the "special actions"
occurred periodically and generally lasted about a week or so, the
furnaces worked non-stop and were never cooled between incinerations. That
would imply _one "cold start" (175 kg), three (free muffle charges) and
"small amounts" of coke thereafter per furnace until _all_ the corpses
murdered in the "special action" were incinerated. 

> I find it difficult to believe that a materials handling engineer is also 
> a skilled crematorium operator.  Now, is that figure the total required to 
> bring the oven up from a cold start to do the first body?  Because once an 
> oven is going, the body is itself fuel.  The second body does not require 
> the full 200 lbs. if it is introduced into an oven still hot from the previous
> cremation.

Indeed the amount of energy liberated by burning a corpse would reduce the
amount of coke needed to keep the furnaces hot enough to cremate the
corpse. Fats, in general, when burned, release (on average) 37.7 kJ/g of
heat energy. That's more than coal does, which is (on average) 32.8 kJ/g.
Carbohydrates and proteins yield about 17 kJ/g when burned. Assuming the
"average" corpse incinerated at Auschwitz weighed 50 kg, and had a mean
body of fat ratio of 14%, and if whe assume that the skeleton comprises
11% of body weight, this should mean that the the body should have the
energy equivalent of about 27 kg of coal, or about 786,000 BTU's. This is
simply a rough assumption, of course, but it gives a general idea to the
amount of energy locked up inside a human body. (cf. Ebbing, _General
Chemistry_, (third edition), pp.212,213,1029.) 

> The Auschwitz ovens used a multiple-retort design, which feeds
> multiple burning chambers from the same oven.  I am not aware of a single
> commercial crematorium which uses such equipment.  I cannot say what fuel
> efficiency this gains, but it seems likely that it would provide some -
> else why bother to design such a model in the first place? 
> 
> >Therefore, approximately 800 million pounds or 400,000 tons of
> >coal would be required. It would strain credulity to believe that Hitler
> >would commit this amount of resource energy to the cremation of Jews during
> >wartime especially when they were capable of converting coal to various
> >other fuels.

Fortunartely, to help give an accurate idea of the Kremas' coke
consuption, some 240 coke delivery reciepts for Auschwitz survived the
war. The overall coke consumption, for example, for the seven months from
April to October 1943, for _all_ the Kremas was 497 tonnes. (cf. Pressac,
_Technique_, p.224.) Obviously, Mr. Winkler's claim that "400,000 tons of
coal would be required" is, to but it kindly, greatly exaggerated. 

> It strains credulity to believe that Hitler would commit the resources
> he did to rounding up the Jews in the first place.  But somehow
> "revisionists"  who make arguments about how illogical such-and-such would
> have been never seem to be able to grasp the big one above.  So do we
> conclude that the concentration camps themselves were hoaxes? 

Well, given that Auschwitz, which was located in Upper Silesia, and was
smack in the middle of rich coal fields. I find it hard to believe that
_access_ to vast amounts coal was a problem. Especially so since Upper
Silesia was not targeted by Allied bombers until nearly _after_ homicidal
gassings at Birkenau ceased! Air photos of the IG Farben plant at
Moniwitz, which was just a few miles away from Birkenau, show a veritable
mountain of coal present there! How hard would it be, for example, to send
a few transports of coke, via railroad, from Monowitz to Birkenau? Not
very I would argue. 

> >In 1991, the Russians released captured German records of operations at
> >Auschwitz. The records show a death toll of 74,000 of a wide myriad of
> >ethnic backgrounds.
> 
>     I believe you will find that those records are not complete - that is,
> they do not even cover all the months of operation.

Additionally, it should be recognized that these deaths applied to the
_registered_ prisoners. The Jews who were sent to the gas chambers
immediately upon arrival at Auschwitz were never registered. It is
therefore rather unlikely that their deaths were ever recorded in these
regsisters

> >As we saw above, the crematoria had a capacity of 15 a
> >day.
> 
> [Note: '15' is a typo for 75 above.]
> 
> >Given a maximum of 1,000 days, Auschwitz could have handled 75,000
> >which is in keeping with expected deaths.
> 
>     There were 46 ovens in Birkenau and six more in Auschwitz for a total
> of 52.  You are telling us that each oven could handle only 1-1/2 bodies
> in a 24-hour period.  Even on the six-hour figure given above, and with 12
> hours downtime, the minimum capacity should have been 104 a day. 
> Something seems very wrong with this engineer's math.  But as I have
> discussed above, there is no reason to think that the six-hour figure had
> any relevance to the operations at Auschwitz, and several reasons to think
> otherwise. 

Indeed. When the trial start-up up of the furnaces in Krema too place it
took 40 minutes to incinerate 45 corspes. A time the Nazis considered to
be unexpectedly too long: 

Czech, _Auschwitz Chronicle, 1939-1945_, p.345.

Reference: APMO, D-Mau-3a/16408. Personal-Information Card for Mieczyslaw
Morawa; D-AuI-sa/101, Confirmation of BruckÕs Arrival
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

March 5  [1943]

During a test heating of the ovens in Crematorium IIÊin Birkenau, the Capo
August Bruck, who has just been transferred from Buchenwald, explains the
construction of the ovens to the prisoners in the Special Squads and
familiarizes them with the instructions for use. The generators run from
morning until 4:00 P.M. In the course of the day, a commission arrives
made up of higher-level SS people from Berlin, members of the camp
management, function of the campÕs Political Department, as well as
engineers and employees of the firm of J.A. Topf and Sons in Erfurt, which
built the crematorium ovens. In their presence, member of the Special
Squad stoke the 15 retorts of the five crematorium ovens with 45 corpses.
With clock in hand, the members of the commission time the cremation of
the corpses, which at 40 minutes takes an unexpectedly long time. The
Special Squad is therefore ordered to let the generators run constantly
for several days so the ovens get heated up. Participating at the trial
start-up of the crematorium ovens, which lasts from March 4 to March 6, is
the Head Capo August Bruck and Mieczyslaw Morawa (No. 5730), the Capo of
Crematorium I who was ordered to Birkenau for the test. Afterward he
returns to the main camp.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

>     And this is before we consider any disposal of bodies on pyres.

Indeed. About _half_ of the 394,000 Hungarian Jews murdered in Aktion
Ho"ss were burned in the incineration pits. 

> >Nothing above is meant to diminish the terror and tragedy of what took
> >place at Auschwitz, it is merely an examination from an engineering
> >standpoint.

Of course not. :-/ 

Too bad Mr. Winkler's "examination from an engineering standpoint" is a farce.

> >The claim of 4 million at Auschwitz is not even a good lie. It is not even
> >a bad lie. In order for it to be a lie at all, it must have some
> >believability. This claim has none.
> 
>     And serious Western historians have agreed since Reitlinger in the
> '50s.  I think that strawman is dead.
> 
> 
> >Some time ago, I read of the Anne Frank Diary hoax and how her Father,
> >Otto, had plagiarized another literary work and palmed it off as his
> >daughter's. At that time I was disturbed that a human could descend to such
> >a vile endeavor as to make a buck off his dead daughter.
>
> Unfortunately our revisionist engineer somehow missed the extensive
> forensic testing done on the diary by the Netherlands State Forensic
> Institute which conclusively showed that the diary was, indeed, written by
> Anne Frank.  It appears that Robert Faurisson lied, to put it bluntly.
> There were some ballpoint pen markings, but they were very few, clearly in
> a different hand, and were added during the preparation of the diaries for
> publication.  Any honest person would have recognized and reported that.

Indeed. Fortunately, as Mr. Stein has noted,  Faurisson's lie has been
thouroughly debunked: 

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/f/frank.anne/holland.003

Yet Mr. Winkler rushes to (ignorantly?) give lip service to such lies. Why? 

> Anyway, there are some answers for you.  You may accept them, you may
> not, but I hope you now at least accept that you were quite wrong when you
> said that there was no answer possible to the Zundelsite.

Inded. The question, rather, is why does the Zundelsite (and Mr. Winkler)
have no credible "answer" to the historical evidence that supports the
veracity of the Holocaust? 

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------





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From: 10@11.12 (Doc Benway)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel
Subject: Re: 961214: The teeth of Mrs. Aristotle
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 06:11:08 GMT
Organization: Holohuggers Anonymous (HA!)
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On Tue, 24 Dec 1996 07:06:49 -0700, mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van
Alstine) wrote:

>In article ,
>jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>
>> christ@adnc.com (Chris Winkler) wrote:
>> 
>> > rcgraves@disposable.com (Rich Graves) wrote:
>> > 
>> > > The particular bit of nonsense that you reposted, which was not put
>> > > together by an engineer, is answered in several parts at:
>> > > 
>> > >  http://search.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/r/rimland.ingrid/science.01
>> > >  http://search.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/r/rimland.ingrid/science.02
>> 
>> > I don't buy the arguements you list in science.01 above. First off, what
>> > about the bones. Sure the meat & fat will burn in 23-30 minutes. But bones
>> > take a long time.
>> 
>> An evidenceless assertion, which contradicts the evidence gathered by
>> (among others) John Morris and Mike Stein.  The simple fact is that, if
>> you don't care too much about the looks of the ashes, and don't mind if
>> some big chunks of bone are left, 20-30 minutes is quite possible. This
>> confirmed by crematory operators.
>
>Lest we forget, the bones were pulverized to fragments:
>
>"It took about 20 minutes to cremate three corpses in one retort. However,
>in their efforts to reduce the number of loadings, prisoners cremated four
>to five corpses at one time and extended the cremation time to about 25 to
>30 minutes. When the time was up, the next load would be put into the
>retort, regardless of the degree of incineration of the preceding load.
>The incompletely incinerated bones fell through the grille into the ash
>pit, were ground with wooden mortars along with the ashes, then poured
>into pits near the crematorium. Next they were removed from the pits and
>poured into the Vistula River or nearby ponds. Sometimes they were used to
>prepare compost; other times they were used directly to fertilize the
>fields of the camp farms." (Gutman, _Anatomy_, p.171.)

        Here we have it.  24 times faster than reality.

        Is not the lying kike/yid world amazing?   




-- Doc Benway

=====
If history has taught us anything it is that history will be revised.
---
Revisionists are sneaky bastards, always relying on facts and figures.

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