The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/r/raven.greg/1992/genie-topic9.9204


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Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 385       Wed Apr 01, 1992
E.BROWN42 [scaramouche]      at 00:37 EST
 
Jon W. and Reb Dov, together again! :->
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Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 386       Wed Apr 01, 1992
A.K.QUINN                    at 02:27 EST
 
  I am told that all "reputable" historians dispute the Holocaust. Are they
reputable because they dispute? Are there no reputable historians who hold the
contrary opinion? Strange logic.
 As to Col Beuchner, Medical Corps. I know when the medics brought in 2 field
hospitals -- a day or 2 later. There were several incidents involving American
GI's, I recall some. I point out that on Day 1, the troops who saw the
conditions at Dachau, seasoned combat troops, became very difficult to
control.
  They had seen blood and guts from Normandy on, but Dachau was too much.
There were beatings of German soldiers, for sure. If that qualifies as an
"atrocity", OK. By Dachau standards, no.Wrong? Yes.  =KevinQ=
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Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 387       Wed Apr 01, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 03:07 EST
 
384 Jon: RE: Nolte, Hillgruber, etc. First, they are what _I_ would call
revisionists but, as you point out, they are not Holocaust Deniers. As far as
your question about "revisionists" in Germany, I assume that you are referring
to what I term "Holocaust Deniers." If that is the case, yes, there are
Holocaust Deniers in Germany.

Raven, for instance, plagiarized from Wilhelm Staeglich who is a disbarred
(West) German judge. The plagiarism occurred when Raven quoted word-for-word
from Staeglich's comments regarding the Wannsee Conference Protocols and
didn't bother using quotation marks or citing the source. There is also Ingrid
Weckert who refers to the Kristallnacht pogrom as a "good natured affair" and
refers to the current German gov't as a "rump state" meaning that it is
illegitimate.

One of Weckert's quotes, BTW, is probably the best elaboration I have ever
read on the purpose of Holocaust Denial: "A people lives by its history. In
its history it finds its roots, its understanding of itself. It draws its
strength from its history. History is not merely a matter of the past; it is a
surety for the future. From that it follows: Whoever destroys the history of a
people, who distorts, poisons, or withholds it, severs the artery through
which a people draws nourishment from its past - with that, the people is
doomed."

To All: I have received some comments in e-mail about the documents that I
u/l'ed earlier. Based upon those comments, I would be happy to discuss those
documents with anyone who has further question via e-mail but, because of the
disturbing nature of their content, there are those who prefer that they not
be discussed publicly and I will respect their wishes.

I am assuming that Raven or Rungu will attempt a refutation. If so, they will
probably quote from Mark Weber. If that be the case, I only ask of the
participants (and lurkers) here that you read those comments with great care
and ask yourself one single question: Are any of the statements which refute
the testimony substantiated?

The only other refutation that is ever offered to the IMT on these disturbing
events is that the evidence was produced by the USSR. However, that ignores
the fact that in one case, the defense counsel supported the claims but stated
that the guilty parties had already been tried, convicted and punished by an
SS court; and, in the other case, that two British POWs submitted sworn
statements.

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Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 388       Wed Apr 01, 1992
TERMY                        at 03:47 EST
 
In reply to:  Message 308  G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]

-> Of course, we must not ignore the other use for gas-tight doors,
 -> which is that it is desireable to have a gas-tight door on a
 ->morgue   so the smell is somewhat contained.

I first began working as an ambulance attendant in April, 1976, and made my
last ambulance run in July, 1988.  I was a paramedic from 1982 until 1990, and
have, through the course of my work and training, have been in several
morgues, and I've never seen "gas- tight" doors on a morgue.  Please cite a
source for your information.


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Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 391       Wed Apr 01, 1992
M.RUNGU                      at 05:30 EST
 
  To C.FINK4 (131)

Mr. Raven has pointed our the myriad errors POOH.BAH has indulged in. He has
also gone to great lengths to examine the "documentation" and has shown the
contradictions, unreliability, or irrelevance of various sources and
documents.  If you have missed his points on these, I suggest you go back and
read the message streams.  This is a far cry from what you describe as
"ignoring the huge amount of documentary evidence" and "slinging baseless
accusations".  It would appear that someone OTHER than Mr. Raven likes to do
the mud slinging...

The deaths at Masada, the Rape of the Sabines, and the Battle of New Orleans
are of little interest to historical revisionists because these events are not
riddled with fabrications and errors as the holocaust is, and because these
events have not been used for political purposes rather than historiography as
the holocaust has.

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Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 393       Wed Apr 01, 1992
M.RUNGU                      at 05:31 EST
 
  To SOFTSERV (134)

I agree with your comments about judging holocaust literature or revisionist
literature on the basis of their CONTENT rather than on the speaker/writer
involved and his/her background.

Concerning the release of historical documentation and evidence from the now
ex-communist regimes in eastern Europe, I will repeat what I said earlier,
that this will be historiographically valuable IF such documents and evidence
are presented to the whole world, openly.  But if they are merely released to
a small clique of holocaust writers and holocaust museums for THEM to select,
selectively interpret, selectively dismiss, hide, destroy, or whatever, then
the world is not likely to gain anything.  In fact, if this is how the
material will be handled, we are likely to see the same old myths and
distortions "reinforced" in conformity with establishment's view of the
holocaust.

Your excellent analogy of the tobacco industry is very appropriate. Handing
over the documents to the holocaust lobby is equivalent to handing over
research on the effect of cigarettes on our health to the tobacco moguls.  If
this takes place, we will get the same sort of "studies" and "findings" that
the tobacco industry has been shoving on us for decade after decade showing us
how "healthy" cigarettes are.

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Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 394       Wed Apr 01, 1992
M.RUNGU                      at 05:32 EST
 
  To D.BERKOWITZ (140)

SOFTSERV's comments about his Jewish upbringing and the bigotry, intolerance,
and racism he encountered within his own community are absolutely essential to
our understanding of the holocaust, to our understanding of the political,
social, and economic measures taken against the Jews of Europe by both the
Germans and by the non-German Europeans in the occupied territories.

His point was that such racism and intolerance as expressed by Jews towards
non-Jews may have actually CREATED the anti-semitism and the hatred that arose
against them so tragically.  Your appeal to have these messages removed and
the subject repressed will only further obscure our understanding of the
holocaust and what did, or did not, happen in that period.

His comments were also linked to his discussion about Professor Faurisson's
experience in France in which he was persecuted, beaten, and his livelihood
harmed merely because he had publicly expressed doubts about the holocaust. 
What SOFTSERV is saying is that such measures LEAD TO anti-semitism rather
than prevent it.

If we can understand the holocaust and understand what is fact, and what is
FICTION, and understand the motivations of all participants, both perpetrator
and victim, then perhaps we can ensure that such an event does not happen
again.  But if topical areas within the discussion are closed off, we are
merely perpetuating general ignorance on it and, perhaps, helping to bring
ABOUT a holocaust at some point in the future.

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Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 395       Wed Apr 01, 1992
M.RUNGU                      at 05:33 EST
 
  To AH.STEIN (141, 148)

I am curious to know just precisely WHO are the "group of Nazi sympathizers"
who want to "sweep the mass murder of millions of Jews under the rug"?  Will
you name them please?  And in naming them I would like to see such accusations
DEMONSTRATED rather than merely wildly thrown about.  If such accusations and
sweeping general statements like that are based on assumptions, then what
value are they to this discussion?

On the other hand, if it can be demonstrated or proven to me, and beyond
reasonable doubt, that "millions of Jews" were deliberately "mass murdered",
then I myself certainly would not want that "swept under the rug".  But so
far, all I have seen presented are various Einsatzgruppen Reports that are
contradictory in nature (e.g. one tells about executing Jews while another
describes plans for building hospitals for them or taking measures to REDUCE
the death rate amongst Jews), or "eyewitness" accounts that have already been
shown to be absolutely unreliable and historically ludicrous (e.g. the Hoess
"memoirs") or even "Shoah"-type tv pseudo-soap-docs as "proof" and "evidence".

A sweeping historical assertion that "six million Jews were  murdered in a
deliberate campaign of mass extermination by the Nazis" bears the onus of
proof.  There is no onus of DISproving such a statement on historians or non-
historian writers who doubt the holocaust and who may be defined as "holocaust
revisionists".  By way of analogy, let's say I make this statement: "There is
a colony of space-travelling cows that live on planet Jupiter."  Then somebody
tells me that they find that hard to believe.  I reply that such doubters must
PROVE that there is NOT a such a colony in existence there.  Naturally, they
can't.  So, triumphantly, I yodel to the world that their failure to DISprove
my original statement PROVES that it must be valid (another lousy Rungu
analogy, I know).  The logic stands.

But holocaust revisionists have gone far beyond merely expressing doubt and
skepticism about aspects of the holocaust.  They have actually examined the
evidence and the eyewitnesses that are used to support the holocaust thesis,
and have sunk them one by one.  The "human lampshades" myth collapsed before
them.  The "human soap" canard fell.  The wild tales about "mass gassings at
Dachau" evaporated.  The "memoirs" and "confessions" of personages such as
Commandant Hoess and Kurt Gerstein have been shown to be false.  Recognizing
the insupportability of these tales, "memoirs", and "confessions", the
holocaust lobby now has dropped them altogether and nowadays mainly
concentrates on the spectre of Auschwitz.  But that too has come under the
careful gaze of the revisionists, and it also is crumbling away.

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Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 397       Wed Apr 01, 1992
M.RUNGU                      at 05:34 EST
 
  To AH.STEIN (145)

The "admitted liar" Fred Leuchter?  Where or when has Mr. Leuchter described
himself as a "liar"?  I think what you are referring to are the mountain of
slander and abuse hurled at him in which "liar" was probably the most
complimentary.  Such mud-slinging was and is the method used to "refute" his
forensic findings resulting from his on-site analyses of the various sites at
the Auschwitz camp complex.  These findings have invalidated the "mass
gassing" thesis as the cornerstone of the holocaust story.

Other "methods" include shouting him down at events in which he has been a
speaker, physical assaults on his person, and the campaign to pressure his
clients to cease utilizing him as a consultant on execution hardware systems
and operation, in order thereby to deny him an ability to make a living. 
Similar methods are employed all over the world to "punish" the expression of
revisionist ideas and findings, and to repress free speech on this subject and
free inquiry in this area.

You also accused (but, again, did not and could not demonstrate) Mr. Raven of
"trying to deny known historical fact".  The problem here is what constitutes
such "historical fact".  When allusions are made to "heaving, geyser-spurting
bodies" then such cannot be regarded as "fact", any more than "human soap",
"human lampshades" or allegations of "mass gassings" at camps like Dachau can.
I think what many people mean by "known historical fact" is what they ASSUME
to be historical fact or choose to believe to be such in accordance with their
own preconceived ideas or interests.

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Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 399       Wed Apr 01, 1992
TERMY                        at 06:20 EST
 
The usual proviso:  the following posts undoubtably contain typos I've missed.
They should be blamed on me, not on the texts themselves...
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Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 400       Wed Apr 01, 1992
TERMY                        at 06:22 EST
 
 The following (and subsequent posts) are taken from the condensed version of 
 Raul Hilberg's "The Destruction of European Jews", Appendix B, of the revised

 edition.  Hilberg is one of the foremost Holocaust historians.

                      Jewish Deaths By Cause

 Ghettoization and general privation                     over 800,000
   Ghettos in German-occupied
   Eastern Europe                        over 600,000
   Theresienstadt and privation
   outside of ghettos                         100,000
   Transnistria colonies (Romanian
   and Soviet Jews)                           100,000

 Open-air shootings                                    over 1,300,000
   Einsatzgruppen, Higher SS and
   Police Leaders, Romanian and
   German armies in mobile oper-
   ations; shootings in Galicia
   during deportations; killings
   of prisoners of war and shoot-
   ings in Serbia and elsewhere

 Camps                                                up to 3,000,000
   German
     Death Camps                      up to 2,700,000
         Auschwitz               1,000,000
         Treblinka           up to 750,000
         Belzec                    550,000
         Sobibor             up to 200,000
         Kulmhof                   150,000
         Lublin                     50,000
         Camps in the low
         tens of thousands
         or below                  150,000

     Concentration camps
        (Bergen-Belsen, Buchenwald,
        Mauthausen, Dachau, Stutthof,
        and others)
     Camps with killing operations
        (Poniatowa, Trawniki, Semlin)
     Labor camps and transit camps
   Romanian
     Golta complex and Bessarabian 100,000
        transit camps
   Croatian and other         under 50,000
                             _________________________________________
                                        Total               5,100,000

 NOTE: Ghettos in German-occupied Eastern Europe, open-air shootings,
 and Auschwitz figures are round to the nearest hundred thousand,
 other categories to the nearest fifty thousand.





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Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 401       Wed Apr 01, 1992
TERMY                        at 06:22 EST
 
  
                            Deaths By Year

  1933-1940         under 100,000
  1941                  1,100,000
  1942                  2,700,000
  1943                    500,000
  1944                    600,000
  1945                    100,000
               _________________
               Total   5,100,000

 NOTE:  Rounded to nearest 100,000




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Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 402       Wed Apr 01, 1992
TERMY                        at 06:23 EST
 
  
           Deaths By Country

  Poland                 up to 3,000,000
  USSR                      over 700,000
  Romania                        270,000
  Czechoslovakia                 260,000
  Hungary                   over 180,000
  Lithuania                up to 130,000
  Germany                   over 120,000
  Netherlands               over 100,000
  France                          75,000
  Latvia                          70,000
  Yugoslavia                      60,000
  Greece                          60,000
  Austria                    over 50,000
  Belgium                         24,000
  Italy (including Rhodes)         9,000
  Estonia                          2,000
  Norway                     under 1,000
  Luxembourg                 under 1,000
  Danzig                     under 1,000
                     __________________
                     Total    5,100,000

 NOTE:  Borders refer to 1937.  Converts to Christianity are
 included, and refugees are counted with the countries from which
 they were deported.




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Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 403       Wed Apr 01, 1992
TERMY                        at 06:26 EST
 
 A report by Dr. Rudolf Lange, who was responsible for operations in 
 Latvia.  This report is from Jan. 1942
 --------

 At the time of the German invasion there were around 70,000 Jews in 
 Latvia.  At the time of the Bolsheviks considerably more Jews lived in 
 Latvia, however a large number fled with the Bolsheviks.

 The aim of Einsatzkommando 2 from the beginning was a radical solution 
 of the Jewish problem through the execution of all Jews.  For this 
 purpose comprehensive purges were carried out in the whole area of our 
 operations by special commandos with the help of selected forces from 
 the Latvian auxiliary police (mainly relatives of Latvians who had 
 been abducted or murdered by the Bolsheviks).  Around the beginning of 
 October, the number of Jews executed in the Commando's sphere of 
 operations was about 30,000.  In addition, there are a few thousand 
 Jews who have been eliminated by the self-defense formations of their 
 own initiative after they had been given suitable encouragement.

 It was impossible to achieve the complete elimination of Jews froom 
 Latvia in view of the economic factors and, in particular, the demands 
 of the Wehrmacht.  Jewish craftsmen were also used for the 
 reconstruction of towns which had been destroyed... Where Latvian 
 specialists were not available the required craftsmen and specialists 
 were therefore provisionally excluded.  However, by the end of October 
 the rural areas of Latvia at least had been completely purged...

 At the beginning of November 1941, there were only around 30,000 Jews 
 in the Riga ghetto, in Libau around 4,300 and in Duenaberg around 
 7,000.  From this point on around 4-5,000 Jews were executed as a 
 result of prosecutions for failure to wear the Jewish star, black 
 market activities, theft, fraud, etc.  In addition, the ghettos were 
 purged of Jews, who were not fully fit for work and no longer 
 required in major actions.  Thus, on 9 November 1941, 11,034 Jews in 
 Duenaberg and, and the beginning of December 1941, 27,800 Jews in Riga 
 were executed in a major action ordered and directed by the Higher SS 
 and Police Leader, and in mid-December 2,350 Jews were executed in 
 Libau at the request of the Reich Commissioner.  The remaining Jews 
 (2,500 in Riga, 950 in Duenaberg and 300 in Libau) were excluded from 
 this action because they were good skilled workers whose labor is 
 still indispensable for the maintenance of the economy, especially the 
 war economy.


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Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 404       Wed Apr 01, 1992
TERMY                        at 06:29 EST
 
  Excerpted from a memorandum dated 27 April, 1942 by Dr. Erhard Wetzel  (a
lawyer), who was serving as desk officer in the Reich Ministry for  the
Eastern Territories:

"Re:  the Solution of the Polish Question

...It should be obvious that one cannot solve the Polish problem by 
liquidating the poles in the same way as the Jews.  Such a solution to  the
Polish problem would burden the German people with guilt for years  to come
and lose us the sympathies of people everywhere, particularly  since our
neighbors would be bound to reckon that they would be  treated in the same way
when the time came."


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Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 405       Wed Apr 01, 1992
TERMY                        at 06:30 EST
 
From the Commander of Einsatzgruppe A, dated 15 October, 1941:

...Similarly, native antisemitic forces were induced to start pogroms  against
Jews during the first hours of the invasion, though this  proved to be very
difficult.  Carrying out orders, the Security Police  were determined to solve
the Jewish question with all possible means  and most decisively.  But it was
desirable that the Security Police  should not put in an immediate appearance,
at least at the beginning,  since the extraordinarily harsh measures were apt
to cause a stir even  in German circles.  It had to be shown to the world that
the  inhabitants themselves tok the first measures by way of natural  reaction
against the repression by the Jews over several decades and  against the
terror exercised by the Communists during the preceding  period... It was
anticipated from the beginning that the Jewish  problem in the Ostland
[Baltic] would not be solved solely through  pogroms.  On the other hand, in
accordance with basic orders, the  cleansing operation of the Security Police
had the goal of the most  comprehensive elimination possible of the Jews. 
Extensive executions  were thus carried out by special units in the cities and
the plains.
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Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 407       Wed Apr 01, 1992
TERMY                        at 06:36 EST
 
The following posts are excerpted from the diary of SS-Dr. Kremer.  The usual
"typo warning" applies...
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Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 408       Wed Apr 01, 1992
TERMY                        at 06:37 EST
 
 From the diary of SS-Dr Kremer

 8 August 1942
 From 15.8.42 up to the end of the vacation posted to SS-Hospital
 Prague.

 Friday, 14 August 1942           ..                  ..
 Departure for Prague. Departure Munster 20.40, Osnabruck 0.57, arrival
 Dresden 10.12, departure Dresden 11.22, arrival Prague 15.15.

 15 August 1942
 From Dresden onwards weather sunny and fine. Travelled by tram from the
 central station to SS-Hospital Podol and taken to meet the head of the
 hospital, Sturmbannfuhrer Dr Fietsch. Accommodations in a patients' room
 on 3rd floor, No. 344.
 Doctors, etc.
 Adjutant: Hstf. Koebel, pharmacist
 Head of administration: Stubf. Dorn
 Surgeon: Stubf. Winne from Danzig, Liek-Schuler
 Internal organs: Stubf. Leppel from Cologne
 Skin: Ostuf. Inden from Dusseldorf
 Eyes: Oberscharf. Frederking from Langendreer
 Radiology: Ostuf. Jung from Aachen
 Neurology: Ostuf. Jansen

 Sunday, 16 August 1942
 Half-day trip round the city to see the sights with Oschf. Frederking
 and wife from Langendreer. Afterwards cup of mocha in a cafe (1.50 RM).

 20 August 1942
 Evening in officers' mess with vintage wine. Present was a doctor from HQ.

 21 August 1942
 Ordered an SS-Fuhrer cap from the Schutzstaffel [SS] central uniform
 office in Berlin through a messenger, but he did not manage to get me
 one.

 24 August 1942
 Bought paper, spectacles and belt. . . .

 27 August 1942
 Brigadefuhrer Gentzken visited the hospital on his way to Karlsbad.
 Spoke about a repudiation of intellectualism especially by Goebbels, a
 gradual erosion of the Hochschulen and of a Ministry for Population
 Policy.

 28 August 1942
 Sent to buy caps in Berlin. On leaving informed by reception that the
 commanding officer wished to speak to me. He informed me that on Hstf.
 Koebel's orders I was not to travel to Berlin.

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Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 409       Wed Apr 01, 1992
TERMY                        at 06:38 EST
 
 29 August 1942
 Received orders (F.S.HSSZ 2150 28.8.42 1833 No. 1565) to report to
 Auschwitz concentration camp, which reportedly is one doctor short due
 to illness.

 30 August 1942
 Departure Prague 8.15 via Bohemian Trubau, Olmutz, Prerau, Oderberg.
 Arrival in Auschwitz CC 17.36. In camp quarantine because of numerous
 infectious diseases (typhus fever, malaria, diarrhoea). . . .
    Receive strictly secret orders from area medical officer Haupt-
 sturmfuhrer Uhlenbrock and am accommodated with the Waffen-SS in a hotel
 room (26).

 31 August 1942
 Tropical climate, 38 degrees in the shade, dust and countless flies!
 Food in the officers' mess excellent. This evening we had e.g. pickled
 duck's liver for 0.40 RM, plus stuffed tomatoes, tomato salad, etc.
 Water is contaminated, so we drink soda water, which is provided free of
 charge (Mattoni). First inoculation against typhus feber. Photographs
 for camp pass.

 1 September 1942
 Wrote off to Berlin for officers' cap, belt, braces. In afternoon
 attended block gassing with Zyklon B against lice.

 2 September 1942
 3.00 a.m. attended my first Sonderaktion. Dante's Inferno seem to me
 almost a comedy compared to this. They don't call Auschwitz the
 extermination camp for nothing!

 3 September 1942
 For the first time came down with the diarrhoea with vomiting and
 colic-type attacks of pain which have hit everyone here in the camp. It
 cannot be the water as I have not drunk a drop, nor can it be the bread,
 as those who have only eaten white bread (special diets) have also come
 down with it. Most probably the reason is the unhealthy continental and
 very dry tropical climate with its dust and masses of vermin (flies).

 4 September 1942
 To combat the diarrhoea: 1 day of gruel and peppermint tea, followed by
 a week's special diet. Charcoal and Tannalbin at intervals. Already
 considerably better.


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Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 410       Wed Apr 01, 1992
TERMY                        at 06:39 EST
 
 5 September 1942
 In the morning attended a Sonderaktion from the women's concentration
 camp (Muslims)(1); the most dreadful of horrors. Hschf. Thilo - army doctor
 - was right when he said to me that this is the 'anus mundi'. In the
 evening towards 8.00 attended another Sonderaktion from Holland. Because
 of the special rations they get of a fifth of a litter of schnapps, 5
 cigarettes, 100 g salami and bread, the men all clamour to take part in
 such actions. Today and tomorrow (Sunday) work.

 6 September 1942
 Today Sunday, excellent luncheon: tomato soup, half a chicken with
 potatoes and red cabbage (20 g fat), dessert and wonderful vanilla
 ice-cream. After the meal the new medical officer, Obersturmfuhrer
 Wirths, who comes originally from Waldbroel, was welcomed.
 Sturmbannfuehrer Fietsch in Prague was his former regimental doctor.
    I have now been in the camp for a week but I still have not
 completely got rid of the fleas in my hotel room despite all
 countermeasures with Flit (Cuprex) etc.
    I gained a refreshing impression when I made my first visit to the
 commandant's adjutant. Above the door to his office is the sign
 'Cyclists dismount' painted on paper. Also hanging in the office of our
 SS local HQ was the noteworthy piece of verse:

                 In life you hit the mark a thousand times
                 They see it, nod and walk on by;
                 But the most insignificant carper never forgets
                 if you miss your target a single time.

    In the evening at 8.00 went to another Sonderaktion outside.

 7 September 1942
 Second inoculation against typhus fever. Today rainy and cooler weather.

 9 September 1942
 This morning received excellent news from my lawyer in Munster, Prof.
 Dr Hallermann: from the first of this month I am divorced from my wife.
 I can now see life in all its colors again. A black curtain has risen
 from my life! Was later present as the doctor at corporal punishment of
 eight prisoners and an execution with small-bore rifle. . . .
    Received soap flakes and two bars of soap. At midday a civilian came
 bounding up to my bike outside the sick-bay like an assassin, ran
 alongside me and asked me to tell him whether I was not Regierungsrat
 Hemm from Breslau, to whom I apparently bear a striking resemblance. He
 had fought together with the gentleman during WWI. How many Doppelganger
 do I have in the world? In the evening went to a Sonderaktion (4th).

 10 September 1942
 In the morning attended a Sonderaktion (5th).

 11 September 1942
 Today Obersturmbannfuhrer Lolling at the camp. ONly when introduced to
 him did I find out for the first time that I am replacing
 Hauptscharfuhrer Kitt, who is now convalescing in Obersalzberg.

 ------------
 (1) A "nickname" referring to the posture of those who were so malnourished 
 that they sat in a position resembling Muslims at prayer.

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Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 411       Wed Apr 01, 1992
TERMY                        at 06:40 EST
 
 14 September 1942
 For the second time had the Auschwitz illness. Temperature of 37.8.
 Today had the third and last injection against typhus fever.

 17 September 1942
 Today ordered all-weather coat from the Kleiderkasse in Berlin,
 measurements: neck to waist 48, total length 133, half back/back top 22,
 shoulders to elbows 51, whole-arm length 81, chest 107, waist 100, seat
 124. Enclosed a uniform coupon, i.e. for a weatherproof coat. Today
 visited women's camp, Birkenau, with [camp doctor] Dr Meyer.

 20 September 1942
 Today, Sunday, in the afternoon heard a concert between 3-6 o'clock in
 the prisoners' chapel in wonderful sunshine. The conductor was the
 director of the Warsaw State Opera. 80 musicians. For lunch there was
 roast pork, in the evening baked tench.

 21 September 1942
 Wrote to Police HQ (Criminal Branch) at Cologne about Otto. In the
 evening duckling. Dr Meyer told me about a congenital nasal defect in
 his father-in-law's family.

 23 September 1942
 Tonight sixth and seventh Sonderaktion. In the morning Obergruppenfuehrer
 Pohl and party arrived at the Waffen-SS quarters. A guard was standing
 outside the door and was first to stand attention before me. In the
 evening, at 20.00 hours, dinner with Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl in the
 officers' mess, a real feast. There was baked pike, as much as you
 wanted, real ground coffee, excellent beer and open sandwiches.

 25 September 1942
 Gruppenfuehrer Grawitz at HQ and camp. During the visit he asked me to
 tell him what the first thing was a doctor would recommend in infectious
 diseases cases. Of course I could not really give him an answer since
 there's no such thing as a general panacea. And what did he have in
 mind? When I heard, I couldn't believe it: a laxative! - As if a doctor
 would intervene with a laxative for every cold, throat infection,
 diphtheria, let alone adbominal typhus! Medicine just can't be
 schematized like that, quite apart from the fact that the young
 inexperienced doctor at the SS office just a few days earlier had killed
 someone with a freshly perforated stomach ulcer by prescribing
 castor-oil blindly.

 27 Septemberr 1942
 Today, Sunday evening, 4-8 o'clock, Community House social evening with
 supper, free beer and tobacco. Speech from Commandant Hoess and musical,
 as well as theatrical presentations.

 28 September 1942
 Tonight attended eighth Sonderaktion. Hauptsturmfuehrer Aumeier told me
 that Auschwitz concentration camp is 12 km long, 8 km wide and 22,000
 Morgen [approx. = to acres] in area. Of these 12,000 acres are under the
plough
 and 2,000 acres fish ponds.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 412       Wed Apr 01, 1992
TERMY                        at 06:41 EST
 
 3 October 1942
 Today fixed fresh living material from human liver and spleen as well as
 pancreas, also fixed lice from typhus-fever patients in absolute
 alcohol. In Auschwitz whole streets have gone down with typhus. Today
 had myself administered with the first serum injection against abdominal
 typhus because of this. Obersturmfuehrer Schwarz has gone down with
 typhus fever!

 6 October 1942
 Obersturmfuerhrer Entress had an accident on his motor bike. Applied
 dressing, Commandant Hoess fell from his horse. Wirths still not back.

 7 October 1942
 Attended 9th Sonderaktion (foreigners and Muslim women). Wirths back at
 work. Replacing Entress in men's camp (examinations, etc).

 9th October 1942
 Sent off a parcel with 9 pounds of soft soap worth 200 RM to Muster.
 Weather: raining.

 10 October 1942
 Extracted and fixed fresh live material from liver, spleen and pancreas.
 Got prisoners to make me a signature stamp. For first time heated the
 room. More cases of typhus fever and Typhus abdominalis. Camp quarantine
 continues.

 11 October 1942
 Today, Sunday, there was a roast hare for lunch - a real fat leg - with
 dumplings and red cabbage for 1.25 RM.

 12 October 1942
 Second innoculation against typhus, later on in evening severe
 generalized reaction (fever). Despite this in the night attended a
 further Sonderaktion from Holland (1,600 persons). Ghastly scenes in
 front of the last bunker! (Hoessler!) That was the 10th Sonderaktion.

 13 October 1942
 Untersturmfuehrer Vetter arrived. Sturmbannfuehrer Caesar also gone down
 with typhus after his wife died of it only a few days ago. Attended the
 sentencing and subsequent execution of seven Polish civilians.

 14 October 1942
 Received all-weather coat (size 52) from Berlin. Price 50 RM. On the
 suggestion of the Santitaetsamt inquired about the start of the winter
 semester with the vice-chancellor's office.

 15 October 1942
 Tonight the first hoar-frost has appeared outside. In the afternoon it
 was sunny and warm again. Extracted fresh live liver, spleen and
 pancreas material from an ictus [jaundice] case.

 16 October 1942
 Soap, soap flakes, sewing material. This morning sent off the second
 packet worth 300 RM to Frau Wizemann. In the camp had a Jew with
 syndactyly [= webbed hands or feet] photographed (father and uncle same
 condition).


 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 413       Wed Apr 01, 1992
TERMY                        at 06:42 EST
 
 17 October 1942
 Attended trial and eleven executions. Extracted fresh live material from
 liver, spleen and pancreas after injection of pilocarpin. Went to
 Nikolai with Wirths. Before we went he informed me that I would have to
 stay longer.

 18 October 1942
 Attended 11th Sonderaktion (Dutch) in cold wet weather this morning,
 Sunday. Horrible scenes with three naked women who begged us for their
 lives.

 19 October 1942
 Went to Kattowitz with Obersturmfuehrer Wirths and Frau Hoess to buy
 epaulettes for the weatherproof coat. Came back via Nikolai.

 24 October 1942
 Six women from the Budyer revolt killed by injection (Klehr).

 25 October 1942
 Today, Sunday, wonderful autumn weather, went on bike tour to Budy via
 Roisko. Wilhelmy back from his trip to Croatia (plum brandy).

 31 October 1942
 Wonderful autumn weather for about two weeks, hence day in, day out
 sun-bathing in the garden of the Waffen-SS house. Even the clear nights
 are relatively mild. Because Thilo and Meyer on home leave I am acting
 troops doctor. Have to visit my HQ so applied for five-day leave to
 visit SS-Hospital Prague.

 1 November 1942
 Today, Sunday, after duty at the medical centre, mainly taking blood
 samples from venules, left Auschwitz on the fast train for Prague at
 13.01. Raining during the journey, train was completely packed. In the
 evening at about 22.30 arrived in Prague where I took several trams in
 complete darkness until I finally reached the SS hospital and was then
 packed off upstairs by a sister, whom I knew already. Was put up for the
 night on an ottoman in Dr Schreiber's office.

 2 November 1942
 Was dragged from my dreams and from the primitive horse-blanket bed by
 Dr Schreiber. After breakfast in the kitchen of the officers' house
 handed over the three parcels with boots and apple compote for Munster,
 worth 300 RM. Then went to see Chef Sturmbannfuehrer Fietsch and then
 usual lunch at 'German House'. Later collected my parade boots (32 RM)
 in Gertengasse and returned to first-class stew at 17.30 in the
 officers' house with plenty of meat. . . .

 3 November 1942
 After breakfast took the 17 to market where I managed to find press
 studs and a swish potato grater. From there back to the centre where I
 ordered myself some glasses for lecturing for 14.50 RM and went back to
 the 'German House' for lunch. At 3 o'clock I then visited the Viktoria
 cinema to watch 'Andreas Schlueter'. I was positively surprised by the
 extremely stylish and tasteful decor of the place and must say that I
 don't think I have ever been to such an elegantly appointed cinema
 before. The film was made on an enormous budget. Heinrich George was
 outstanding. He portrayed once again how in this life a person with
 creative leanings does not find the appreciation he deserves from his
 fellow men and finally perishes amid intrigues and hostilities. The
 final message made a deep impression on me after my own experiences:
 'Life does not go on for ever but the work remains eternal.'

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 414       Wed Apr 01, 1992
TERMY                        at 06:43 EST
 
 4 November 1942
 This morning first thing tried to take some photographs of Prague Castle
 from the Oberlandrat building and the Mauerbrucke. The light was very
 capricious. Then shopping in the old city, where I managed to buy a
 fountain pen for 7.50 RM near the Alstaetter-Ring and a lady's handbag.
 Then back for a stew in the hospital at 12.30. Here I was told that I
 had to vacate my room as an Obersturmbannfuehrer wanted to take it over.
 I then took my cases into the room belonging to a patient from IIb, in
 the accident ward. After lunch he however then had the foresight to
 throw a cursory glance into my room and immediately thought better of
 the swap, so I was then able to move back upstairs with my suitcases.
 Ther person in question was Obersturmbannfuehrer Deutsch, who told me
 that Sturmbannfuehrer Fietsch had been his regimental doctor. It turned
 out he also knew Obersturmfuehrer Wirths well and he asked me to send him
 his best regards. He is, as he told me, somewhat weak-willed and has all
 kinds of problems with his wife and children.
    Some time after lunch I went back into town, photographed Wenceslas
 Square from the Landesmuseum as well as the Theinkirche. Then I picked
 up my spectacles and went to the Willy Forst filem, 'Operette', which
 had been described as a massive success and was already playing in its
 second week at the Astra in Wenceslas Square. Maria Holst was excellent
 in the female lead role. I was completely enchanted when I left yet
 another first-rate and elegantly appointed picture-house: One can only
 manage one thing at a time - either love or work - both at the same time
 are not possible. If success is there then it happens as to a mountain
 climber who has reached the summit. The striving is over, one is lonely
 and isolated. At any rate the film with its Makart scene, its Straussian
 operettas and its refined and magnificent song-and-dance numbers is
 quite disturbingly enchanting.

 5 November 1942
 In the morning sent off fourth parcel, value 300 RM, to Frau Wizemann.
 Contents: lady's handbag with fountain pen, spectacles, etc., parade
 boots, writing paper, brown shirts, potato grater, etc. Then a little
 shopping in town and lunch at the 'German House'. Gloomy, rainy weather.
 In the evening packed for tomorrow's departure at 8.00 and evening in
 the mess where I put away a whole litre of a wonderful-tasting Bulgarian
 red wine which really put me in a good mood. Didn't get to bed until
 12.00.

 6 November 1942
 Woken early at 6.00 by the sister and was already at the station (trams
 21 and 7) not long afterwards, where I boarded the fast train to
 Maehrisch-Ostrau at 8.10. In Prerau I boarded the fast Vienna-Cracow
 train and had just entered a second-class compartment when a
 Generalmayer [brigadier] started up a conversation with me. I was alone
 with him for almost the whole journey, and he told me about his
 experiences at the front and shook me by the hand when he had to get
 off. Journey time from Prague to Auschwitz over nine hours. On arrival I
 immediately went to the officers' mess, where once again I ate until I
 was really full.

 8 November 1942
 Tonight took part in two Sonderaktionen, in rainy and gloomy autumn
 weather (12th and 13th). In the morning Hauptscharfuehrer Kitt, a pupil
 of mine from Essen, came and paid his respects to me at the sick-bay. In
 the afternoon another Sonderaktion, the 14th I have participated in up
 to now. In the evening cosy evening company in the Fuehrerheim as guest
 of Hauptsturmfuehrer Wirths. There was Bulgerian red wine and Croatian
 plum brandy.

 10 November 1942
 Today first light snowfall. Frost during the night.

 13 November 1942
 Extracted fresh live material (liver, spleen and pancreas) from a
 previously photographed, severely atrophied Jewish prisoner aged
 eighteen. Fixed as always, liver and spleen in Carnoy [fixing solution]
 and pancreas in Zenker [fixing solution] (Prisoner No. 68,030).

 14 November 1942
 Today, Saturday, variety show in the communat house (really big!).
 Particularly popular were the dancing dogs and the two bantams which
 crowed to order, the wrapped-up person and the cycling group.



 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 415       Wed Apr 01, 1992
D.FRIEDMAN14                 at 07:17 EST
 
398 M.RUNGU:

"So now we have the spectacle of a Jewish person being slandered with "Capo"
and "Judenrat epithets."

I didn't -slander- anyone.  I did not accuse Schulman of being one of the
abovementioned things (By the way, you can't be a Judenrat; just a member of
it) -- I merely said that he reminds me of them.  This is neither slander nor
a personal attack.  Merely a statement of fact.

BTW, as part of an increasingly dangerous rash of censorship decisions,
Graffiti followed your wishes that my post be deleted.  Mazel Tov. (That's Jew
for "Congratulations.")

If you again incorrectly accuse me of slander, M.RUNGU, I will consider you
guilty of it, and will take the appropriate action.  Better you should
understand the mother tongue before misusing it.

Love,

Dave
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 416       Wed Apr 01, 1992
D.FRIEDMAN14                 at 07:25 EST
 
M.RUNGU:

Along with everybody else, I still await with deepest interest the story of
how you, a self-proclaimed ignorant, became one of our leading authorities on
denial in a 24-hour period.  You would not only be satisfying a source of
increasingly burning curiosity, but you'd be doing me a huge favor, as well. I
have a huge research project to submit in 5 weeks, and if you could tell me
your secret, I'd be deeply in your debt.

Love,

Dave
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 417       Wed Apr 01, 1992
D.FRIEDMAN14                 at 07:45 EST
 
396 M.RUNGU

One finds your figure of 600,000 dead...er...thought-provoking, to say the
least.  Is this your own body-count, or can you cite a source?
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 418       Wed Apr 01, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 07:48 EST
 
Rungu: You still have not answered the questions in message 328 nor cited any
message in which I made the statements of which you have accussed me.

I guess we need to remember the German truism: Keine Antwort ist auch eine
Antwort - No answer is also an answer.

Therefore, please admit that you were in error when you made your accusations
against me.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 419       Wed Apr 01, 1992
AH.STEIN                     at 18:17 EST
 
 389  Rungu:

 >Some say that the Israelis are
 "more Nazi than the Nazis" ...

 How true.  You just forgot to point out that those "some" are all
 anti-semites, and that they're lying.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 420       Wed Apr 01, 1992
AH.STEIN                     at 18:18 EST
 
 >Message 390       Wed Apr 01, 1992
 >M.RUNGU                      at 05:30 EST

 >You asked why the various holocaust "survivors"'s accounts are so
 unreliable. 

 >Sometimes it is ...; sometimes ...; sometimes ...

 >The problem is that SOME accounts are undoubtedly true and accurate, but
 that it is so difficult to separate the FACTUAL accounts from the far more
 numerous FICTIONAL ones, that they are drowned out.

 Interesting message.  By acknowledging that some accounts are "undoubtedly
 true and accurate," you clearly admit that your effort to deny the
 Holocaust is a fraud.  That, of course, brings up the interesting question: 
 why are you trying to convince people that something you know happened
 didn't?

 I will compliment you on apparently having the ability to perform the
 difficult task of separating the factual accounts from the inaccurate ones. 
 What's your secret?
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 421       Wed Apr 01, 1992
AH.STEIN                     at 18:18 EST
 
 >Message 391       Wed Apr 01, 1992
 >M.RUNGU                      at 05:30 EST

 >  To C.FINK4 (131)

 >Mr. Raven has pointed our the myriad errors POOH.BAH has indulged in.

 Funny.  I must have missed that.  I haven't seen him point out any such
 errors.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 425       Wed Apr 01, 1992
AH.STEIN                     at 18:20 EST
 
 >Message 397       Wed Apr 01, 1992
 >M.RUNGU                      at 05:34 EST

 The "admitted liar" Fred Leuchter?  Where or when has Mr. Leuchter
 described himself as a "liar"?

 When he admitted misrepresenting his credentials and licensing. 
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 426       Wed Apr 01, 1992
AH.STEIN                     at 18:21 EST
 
 398  Rungu:

 > ... Mel Mermelstein's frivolous legal actions against the Institute for
 Historical Review ...

 Somehow, the court did not agree with your assessment, and ordered the
 Institute for Historical Misrepresentation to pay up.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 427       Wed Apr 01, 1992
ERIC-M                       at 18:38 EST
 
 >>> POOH.BAH

 > The next 6 were posted to demonstrate how a "paper trial" can be
 > discovered for different occurences under the Nazis AND to indicate how
 > sadistic some "scientific" aspects were.

How do we know that this "paper trail" was really left by the Germans and not
fabricated by the Allies?  (Yeah, I know this kind of sounds like I'm a
planted shill.  >grin>)

I know that we can't prove with absolute certainty that these documents are
originals, but what evidence is there to support this?


  /
 |/ ric
 |/

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 428       Wed Apr 01, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri]            at 18:39 EST
 
Termy, the Kremer entries ... the gross indifference is chilling.  I recognize
the entry 18 October 1942.  That is the entry Faurisson lied about. French
scholar George Weller debunked those lies.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 429       Wed Apr 01, 1992
D.BERKOWITZ                  at 18:41 EST
 
Scaramouche- those are the left and right hand clapping! [g]
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 430       Wed Apr 01, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 18:55 EST
 
This series of documents will start with euthanasia and trace the killing
through the extermination program....in just 13 documents.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 431       Wed Apr 01, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 18:55 EST
 
                                              1.Sept.1939

 Reischsleiter Bouhler and Dr. Brandt are commissioned under responsibility to
 expand the authority particularly of designated doctors so that they can
 euthanize after they become aware of people who are seized by incurable
 sickness as determined by critical review of the state of their illness.

                                         Adolph Hitler

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 432       Wed Apr 01, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 18:56 EST
 
        Minutes from Steering Group Meeting of the Euthanasia Program
                               9 October 1939

 Brack: Today's meeting is concerned with the final clarification of the
        questions: who? and how? Both questions belong together. Dr. Linden
        will report on the first.

 Linden: Today forms are being sent to all asylums together with a circular
         from the Reich Interior Ministry...It is anticipated that the forms
         will be returned within three weeks since a deadline of 1 November
         has been given. In reply to a question from party comrade
         Blankenburg: No suspicions can arise as to the real purpose of the
         forms because the reason given for them in the circular is
         rationalization.

 Brack: Thanks Party Comrade Linden and comments on the number of anticipated
        cases. The number is arrived at through a calculation on the basis of
        a ratio of 1000:10:5:1. That means out of 1,000 people 10 require
        psychiatric treatment; of these 5 in residential form. And, of these,
        one patient will come under the program. If one applies this to the
        population of the Greater German Reich, then one must reckon with 65- 
        75,000 cases. With this statement the question of "who?" can be
        regarded as settled.

 Heyde: Commented on the question of "how?" The number referred to by Party
        Comrade Brack also tallies with his own estimation. It makes the
        proposed method of injections put forward by Professor Nitsche
        unviable. For the same reason, the use of doses of medicine is also
        impossible.

 Nitsche: Disagrees.

 Werner: The question has been discussed with the director of the Reich
         Criminal Police Department, Nebe. We are in agreement with him that
         CO (Carbon Monoxide) is the best method.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 433       Wed Apr 01, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 18:57 EST
 
 From the instruction sheet for the questionnaire for the euthanasia program:

 All patients are to be reported who:

 1.   suffer from the diseases enumerated below and who within the institution
      can be occupied not at all or only at the most mechanical work (picking,
      etc.)

      Schizophrenia,
      Epilepsy (indicate if exogenous, war-related or other causes)
      Senile disorders,
      Therapy-resistant paralysis and other Lues [syphilitic] diseases,
      Retardation from whatever cause,
      Encephalitis,
      Huntington's chorea and other terminal neurological conditions;

      OR

 2.   have been continuously in institutions for at least 5 years;

      OR

 3.   are in custody as criminally insane;

      OR

 4.   do not possess German citizenship or are not of German or related blood
      (footnoted)

 Accompanying footnote: Jew, Jewish Mischling [half-breed] 1st and 2nd class,
 Negro, Negro Mischling, Gypsy, Gypsy Mischling.


 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 434       Wed Apr 01, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 18:58 EST
 
                        Report to Gau HQ in Nuremberg
                  From Nazi Party Leader - Ansbach/Bavaria
                                12 June 1940

 The transfer of patients from the asylums, lunatic asylums etc. to other
 areas naturally could not be concealed from the public.

 It appears that the commission involved have worked too fast, have not always
 been skilful and that some mistakes have been made. It cannot be avoided that
 individual instance become know and talked about.

 The following cases should not, of course, have been allowed to happen:

  (1) A family received two urns by mistake.

  (2) A death notice gave the cause of death as appendicitis. But the appendix
 had been removed ten years before.

  (3) Another cause of death was spinal disease. But the relatives had visited
 the man only eight days earlier when he was completely healthy.

  (4) A family received a death notice when the woman is still living in the
 asylum and is in the best of health.....

 In the case of these extremely delicate measures it is very difficult to make
 suggestions as to how one can counteract the spreading of facts or of rumors
 which derive from them or are invented.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 435       Wed Apr 01, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 18:59 EST
 
                           Schlegelberger's Speech
      Conference of the Senior Court Presidents and Public Prosecutors
                              23-24 April 1941

 You, gentlemen, must be the means by which, or even better the source from
 which, a knowledge of this need to fit in flows directly and ruthlessly to
 your subordinates in every sphere. From this there derives for me the duty of
 making you aware of all the decisions of the Fuehrer which are of importance
 for your official actions. You must not only be aware of rumors but also know
 the facts. If this does not occur then it is inevitable that judges and
 prosecutors will act against measures which they in good faith but
 erroneously consider to be illegal and so will innocently put themselves in
 conflict with the will of the Fuehrer to the serious detriment of justice and
 of the state. Gentlemen, in your oral and written reports you continually
 express doubts concerning the question of the DESTRUCTION OF LIFE UNWORTHY OF
 LIFE.

 You report about incredible rumors going round among the people and you
 complain that you are not in a position to enlighten people because you lack
 information about these matters. This complaint is justified. I have,
 therefore, soon after taking over the Ministry, sought an opportunity to
 clarify the matter for myself and, at this point, I would like to thank the
 chief of the Fuehrer's Chancellery, Reichsleiter and Party Comrade Bouhler
 for the detailed explanation. I am even more grateful to him for agreeing to
 allow his leading experts to provide this conference with the information
 necessary for [you] to carry out [your] duties. I would like to welcome Herr
 Brack and Herr Professor Heyde and ask them to take the floor.


 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 436       Wed Apr 01, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 18:59 EST
 
                               Brack's Speech
      Conference of the Senior Court Presidents and Public Prosecutors
                              23-24 April 1941

 Not a task for a state body. New problem, no experience, therefore prior
 sounding necessary before a law is introduced. A state body unsuitable for
 such a task which from the outside appears illegal. Not a matter of the
 DESTRUCTION OF LIFE UNWORTHY OF LIFE, but the carrying out of an act of
 release for people who are suffering and for their relatives....

 Value of the action - not simply pecuniary. Care of these patients ties up a
 lot of valuable personnel...

 Patient dies of a fictitious cause. Reason: Fuehrer's insistence on secrecy.
 Death certificate. Date and cause of death both incorrect. A proper register
 is kept at the same time. Now we keep a proper record of the estate which is
 what the relatives are most concerned about....

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 437       Wed Apr 01, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 19:00 EST
 
                     Letter to Reich Minister of Justice
                    From Roman Catholic Bishop of Limburg
                               13 August 1941

 ...Buses arrive in Hadamar several times a week with a large number of these
 victims. School children in the neighborhood know these vehicles and say:
 "Here comes the murder wagon." After the arrival of such vehicles the
 citizens of Hadamar then see the smoke coming from the chimney and are upset
 by constant thoughts about the poor victims especially when, depending on the
 direction of the wind, they have to put up with the revolting smell. The
 consequence of the principles being practiced here is that children, when
 quarrelling with one another make remarks like: "You are thick, you'll be put
 in the oven in Hadamar." People who do not want to get married or who do not
 get the opportunity say: "Get married? No fear. Put children into the world
 who then end up going through the stack." Old people are saying "on no
 account will I go into a state hospital! After the feeble-minded, the old
 will be next in line as useless mouths to feed."

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 438       Wed Apr 01, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 19:00 EST
 
               Letter to Reichskommissar Ostland Hinrich Lohse
                           From Dr. Erhard Wetzel
                               25 October 1941

 ....With regard to my letter of 18 October 1941, please be informed that
 Oberdienstleiter Brack from the Fuehrer's Chancellery has stated his
 readiness to assist in the construction of the necessary accommodations and
 gassing apparatuses. At the present time we do not have on hand a sufficient
 quantity of the apparatuses, so they first must be constructed. Brack's view
 is that, since construction of the apparatuses within the Reich would present
 far greater difficulties than onsite production, the most expedient course of
 action is to send his people directly to Riga, in particular his chemist Dr.
 Kallmeyer, who will take the necessary steps from there....

 Given the present situation, Jews who are not fit for work can be eliminated
 without qualms through use of the Brack device. Incidents such as those that
 took place during the shootings of Jews in Vilna, according to a report I
 have on my desk, can hardly be sanctioned, keeping in mind that the
 executions were undertaken openly, and the new procedures assure that such
 incidents will no longer be possible....

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 439       Wed Apr 01, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 19:01 EST
 
                                         Kiev, 16.May.1942

 Reich Secret Document

 To SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Rauff
 Berlin

 The overhauling of the vans of Einsatzgruppe D and C has been completed...

 I have had the vans of Einsatzgruppe D disguised as house trailers, by having
 a single window shutter fixed to each side of the small vans, and on the
 large ones, two shutters, such as one often sees on farm houses in the
 country. The vans had become so well known that not only the authorities but
 the civilian population referred to them as the "Death Vans" as soon as one
 appeared....

 I also gave instructions that all personnel should stay as far away as
 possible from the vans when the gassing is in progress to prevent damage to
 their health in the event of gas leaking out...

 The gassing is generally not carried out correctly. In order to get the
 Aktion finished as quickly as possible the driver presses down on the
 accelerator as far as it will go. As a result the persons to be executed die
 of suffocation and do not doze off as was planned....

                                         Dr. Becker
                                         SS Untersturmfuehrer

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 440       Wed Apr 01, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 19:02 EST
 
                 Letter to Obersturmbannfuehrer Walter Rauff
                               From Willy Just
                                 5 June 1942

 RE: Technical alterations to the special vehicles already in operation and
 those in production.

 Since December 1941, for example, 97,000 have been processed using three vans
 without any faults developing in the vehicles. The well-known explosion in
 Kulmhof (Chelmno) must be treated as a special case. It was caused by faulty
 practice. Special instructions have been given to the relevant offices in
 order to avoid such accidents. The instructions were such as to ensure a
 considerable increase in the degree of security.

 Further operational experience hitherto indicates that the following
 technical alterations are appropriate....

  2) The vans are normally loaded with 9-10 people per square meter. With the
 large Saurer special vans this is not possible because although they do not
 become overloaded their maneuverability is much impaired. A reduction in the
 load area appears desirable. It can be achieved by reducing the size of the
 van by c. 1 meter. The difficulty referred to cannot be overcome by reducing
 the size of the load. For a reduction in the numbers will necessitate a
 longer period of operation because the free spaces will have to be filled
 with CO. By contrast, a smaller load area which is completely full requires
 a much sorter period of operation since there are no free spaces.....

  3) The connecting hoses between the exhaust and the van frequently rust
 through because they are corroded inside by the liquids which fall on them.
 To prevent this the connecting piece must be moved so that the gas is fed
 from the top downwards. This will prevent liquids flowing in.....

  6) The lighting must be better protected against damage than hitherto....It
 has been suggested that lighting should be dispensed with since they are
 allegedly never used. However, experience shows that when the rear door is
 closed and therefore when it becomes dark, the cargo presses hard towards the
 door....It makes it difficult to latch the door.Furthermore, it has been
 observed that the noise always begins when the doors are shut presumably
 because of fear brought on by the darkness....

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 441       Wed Apr 01, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 19:04 EST
 
                 Letter to Reichsfuehrer SS Heinrich Himmler
                              From Viktor Brack
                                23 June 1942

 ....some time ago, on the instructions of Reichsleiter Bouhler, I placed some
 of my men at the disposal of Brigadefuehrer Globocnik. Following a further
 request from him, I have transferred additional personnel. Brigadefuehrer
 Globocnik took the opportunity of expressing the opinion that the whole
 Jewish action should be carried out as quickly as possible to avoid the
 danger of one day finding ourselves stuck in the middle of it in the event of
 difficulties forcing us to halt the action. You yourself, Reichsfuehrer, some
 time ago expressed to me the opinion that we should work as fast as possible
 if only for reasons of concealment. In my opinion, both views, which after
 all lead to the same result, are more than justified. Nevertheless, in this
 context I would be grateful to be permitted to make the following
 observation: I think there must easily be 2-3 million men and women among the
 ten million European Jews who are very well capable of working. In view of
 the extraordinary difficulties which the labor question poses for us, in my
 opinion we should definitely preserve and make use of these 2-3 million.
 However, that will only be possible if they are simultaneously sterilized. I
 already reported to you about a year ago that people working for me have
 concluded the necessary experiments for this purpose. I would like to remind
 you of these facts. The kind of sterilization normally carried out on the
 hereditarily sick is not feasible in this instance because it would take up
 too much time and be too expensive. However, a castration by means of X-rays
 is not only relatively cheap, but also could be carried out on thousands in
 a very short time.....

 If, Reichsfuehrer, you decide to follow this course of action in the
 interests of preserving labor material, then Reichsleiter Bouhler is prepared
 to provide you with the doctors and other personnel required to carry out
 this work......

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 442       Wed Apr 01, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 19:04 EST
 
                     From the diary of Dr. Johann Kremer
                                2 April 1942

 This morning at three o'clock I attended a special action for the first time.
 Dante's hell seemed like a comedy in comparison. Not for nothing is Auschwitz
 called an extermination camp.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 443       Wed Apr 01, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 19:05 EST
 
                 Report to Reichsfuehrer SS Heinrich Himmler
                         From Alfred Franke-Gricksch
                               14-16 May 1943

                            Resettlement of Jews

 The Auschwitz camp plays a special role in the resolution of the Jewish
 question. The most advanced methods permit the execution of the Fuehrer-order
 in the shortest possible time and without arousing much attention. The so-
 called "resettlement action" runs the following course: The Jews arrive in
 special trains (freight cars) toward evening and are driven on special tracks
 to areas of the camp specifically set aside for this purpose. There the Jews
 are unloaded and examined for their fitness to work by a team of doctors, in
 the presence of the camp commandant and several SS officers. At this point
 anyone who can somehow be incorporated into the work program is put in a
 special camp. The curably ill are sent straight to a medical camp and are
 restored to health through a special diet. The basic principle behind
 everything is: conserve all manpower for work. The previous type of
 "resettlement action" has been thoroughly rejected, since it is too costly to
 destroy precious work energy on a continual basis.

 The unfit go to cellars in a large house which are entered from outside. They
 go down five or six steps into a fairly long, well-constructed and well-
 ventilated cellar area, which is lined with benches to the left and right. It
 is brightly lit, and the benches are numbered. The prisoners are told that
 they are to be cleansed and disinfected for their new assignments. They must
 therefore completely undress to be bathed. To avoid panic and to prevent
 disturbances of any kind, they are instructed to arrange their clothing
 neatly under their respective numbers, so that they will be able to find
 their things again after their bath. Everything proceeds in a perfectly
 orderly fashion. Then they pass through a small corridor and enter a large
 cellar room which resembles a shower bath. In this room are three large
 pillars, into which certain materials can be lowered from outside the cellar
 room. When three- to four-hundred people have been herded into this room the
 doors are shut, and containers filled with the substances are dropped down
 into the pillars. As soon as the containers touch the base of the pillars,
 they release particular substances that put the people to sleep in one
 minute. A few minutes later, the door opens on the other side, where the
 elevator is located. The hair of the corpses is cut off, and their teeth are
 extracted (gold-filled teeth) by specialists (Jews). Then the corpses are
 loaded into elevators and brought up to the first floor, where ten large
 crematoria are located. (Because fresh corpses burn particularly well, only
 50-100 lbs. of coke are needed for the whole process.) The job itself is
 performed by Jewish prisoners, who never step outside this camp again.

 The results of this "resettlement action" to date: 500,000 Jews. Current
 capacity of the "resettlement action" ovens: 10,000 in twenty-four hours.


 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 444       Wed Apr 01, 1992
H.P.SKALIKS [Hans-Peter]     at 22:41 EST
 
C.Fink4...message 366

University chemistry labs generally have antidote kits for cyanide poisoning.
A vial of amyl nitrate is broken under the victim's nose and breathing is
induced mechanically, if needed. This chemical binds the CN radical and
changes it into a less potent poison. This generates enough time to get the
victim to the hospital to be treated for the poisoning created by the amyl
nitrate.


 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 445       Wed Apr 01, 1992
C.FINK4 [Carl]               at 23:07 EST
 
RUNGU, your 391:

>>Mr. Raven has pointed our the myriad errors POOH.BAH has indulged
 >>in. He has also gone to great lengths to examine the "documentation" and
has shown the contradictions, unreliability, or
 >>irrelevance of various sources and documents.  If you have missed
 >>his points on these, I suggest you go back and read the message
 >>streams.  This is a far cry from what you describe as "ignoring
 >>the huge amount of documentary evidence" and "slinging baseless
>>accusations".  It would appear that someone OTHER than Mr. Raven
 >>likes to do the mud slinging...

  First:  document any time in which Raven has actually caught Pooh in an
error.  He's SAID "error" lots of times, but he's never shown one that I
recall.

  I'll stand by "slinging baseless accusations".  Raven quoted one of Pooh's
paragraphs and stated that it was wrong, and clearly wrong, but either chose
not to give or could not give any reason why this was so.  This is slinging
baseless accusations.

  When I said "ignoring the huge amount of documentary evidence", I was
referring to Raven's (and your) constant harping on the idea that the
Holocaust has only been attested to by "unreliable eyewitnesses".  He was (and
you are) ignoring the documentary evidence when he said that, although
certainly he does not ignore the documentary evidence when he makes fun of it -
not that his criticisms make much sense.

>>The deaths at Masada, the Rape of the Sabines, and the Battle of
 >>New Orleans are of little interest to historical revisionists
 >>because these events are not riddled with fabrications and errors
 >>as the holocaust is, and because these events have not been used
 >>for political purposes rather than historiography as the holocaust
 >>has.

  Please.  First of all, do you really want to claim that the Battle of New
Orleans (just as an example) wasn't used for political purposes?  Second, how
does this idea (that these events, all important in some nation's concept of
itself, were allegedly not politically important) negate the fact that only
eyewitness and documentary evidence of them exists?  Thirdly, how do you know
that there aren't "fabrications and errors"?  You aren't letting your
political agenda decide this, are you?

  By the way - no one can "slander" anyone in this medium.  Written defamation
is libel.

                                Carl Fink
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 446       Thu Apr 02, 1992
P.BRADEN [pat.b]             at 00:18 EST
 
re: message 366 ND 444

Hydrogen cyanide is a protoplasmic poison and works on the cellular level by
tying up the enzymes needed for cellular oxidation. The theory behind the
various antedotes, such as amyl nitrate, is based on their ability to convert
hemoglobin to methemoglobin. Cyanide reacts slowly with hemoglobin but rapidly
with methemoglobin. This is supposed to remove the cyanide from the cells and
restore the patient if he/she is not allready dead. However, because it works
at the cellular level, a person can be dead and still continue to breath. But
what's this got to do with the discussion? I only mention it because in
previous debates with Raven on PEN He's tried to make something of it.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 447       Thu Apr 02, 1992
STEPHEN.KAHN [Scarlet I]     at 00:47 EST
 
In message 132 I questioned statements made by M.Rungu about the roles of Jews
in the Soviet Union as being both irrelevant to the topic and being untrue. I
started a new topic (#10) for a discussion of these issues.

After a long silence, Rungu replied in #392 (4/1/92). Although I think the
subject should be discussed in Topic 10, I'm not willing to let his cavalier
dismissal of the issues raised by his unsupported allegations stand
unquestioned. So I will comment more specifically here on these issues.

At that point, Rungu can either provide some documentation for his allegations
or drop the issue. If he does decide to discuss it, then I think all relevant
messages, beginning with #392 and this message, should be moved to Topic 10.
If he doesn't respond, I think that speaks for itself and indicates that he
makes allegations without any facts or documentation to back them up.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 448       Thu Apr 02, 1992
STEPHEN.KAHN [Scarlet I]     at 00:50 EST
 
I'm glad that he admits the issue has little to do with the Holocaust. The one
issue that is slightly relevant is the topic of partisan actions against Jews.
Rungu argues that they resulted from the population's resentment at
persecution by Jewish leaders during the Ukrainian famine and other Soviet
atrocities.

Rungu provides essentially no documentation of these charges. The only sources
he cites are Robert Conquest and Solzhenitsyn. As pointed out in Topic 10,
these "sources" contradict the very arguments that Rungu presents. How can
someone who argues in this fashion be taken seriously?

Anti-semitism in Russia, Eastern Europe, and Europe as a whole far predates
Soviet Communism and the Twentieth Century. (For example, as I'm sure most
readers of this topic know, this is the anniversary not only of Columbus'
visit to the Americas, but also the expulsion of the Jews from Spain.)

Jews were the object of various degrees of persecution (official and
unofficial) throughout their presence in Russia, and the period from 1880-1910
or so was a period of intense pogroms and other persecutions, which were
tolerated and even instigated by the Czarist government.

Ethnic and religious conflicts and persecutions are rife in Eastern Europe,
recurring for scores and even hundreds of years, particularly coming to the
fore in times of stress, suffering and dislocation, just as we see happening
today in the ex-Soviet Union, Yugoslavia, Romania, Bulgaria, and so on.

It's a much more economical and sensible hypothesis that partisan atrocities
against the Jews during WW II resulted from these centuries-old traditions
than from some "Jewish" persecution during the early years of the Soviet
Union.


 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 449       Thu Apr 02, 1992
STEPHEN.KAHN [Scarlet I]     at 00:54 EST
 
There were Jews at all levels of the Communist Party. The percentage of
membership was higher than their presence in the general population, but not
remarkably so, and they were still a small percentage of the overall
organization.

The people who advanced in the Communist Party were those who jettisoned their
previous traditions and backgrounds in the name of an extreme ideology and in
the pursuit of personal ambition. They were no more bearers of any Jewish
traditions than Stalin was a bearer of a Christian tradition because he
attended a seminary for several years before embarking on his career as a
revolutionary.

One hardly advanced in the Party by preaching Judaism or Zionism, any more
than by preaching Christianity or democracy or any other belief accept Marxist-
Leninism in general and Lenin's and then Stalin's party line of the week in
particular. Trotsky neither advanced nor fell because of being a Jew. It was
simply irrelevant.


 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 450       Thu Apr 02, 1992
STEPHEN.KAHN [Scarlet I]     at 00:57 EST
 
Rungu harps on the "Jews Lazar Kaganovitch and Lavrenti Beria?"

There seems to be no evidence that I can find that Beria was Jewish. (And
there's fairly complete agreement that both were ruthless and abominable
people.)

So what's the point? If Rungu is trying to imply there is some sinister cover-
up of Beria's ethnic identity, why does everyone admit Kaganovitch's? Why are
there readily available lists of the of the Jewish of the leading Jewish
Communists? (See THE JEWS OF THE SOVIET UNION, by Benjamin Pinkus.)

So what's the point about Beria? What's one Jew more or less? 

And if Rungu is privy to some information about Beria that most leading
historians are not, why doesn't he lay it out, instead of simply repeating it
as a known fact. Given the lack of supporting evidence, it's difficult to
believe that he's doing anything but parroting any particular rumor or piece
of propaganda that he once heard that pops into his head and sounds vaguely
effective.

Again the point is not that there were Jews in the Communist leadership but
that their behavior and allegiance was no different than that of the anyone
else in the leadership, i.e., adherence to a fanatical ideology, and a
ruthless willingness to pursue personal advancement over others.

If there's something uniquely "Jewish" about that, M. Rungu, please explain.


 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 455       Thu Apr 02, 1992
SOFTSERV [NeilSchulman]      at 01:39 EST
 
If there is that long a list of Jewish writers condemning Israeli treatment of
the Palestinians, then why aren't they supporting Secretary of State Baker's
laying it on the line to Israel to make peace or lose American support?

As for the Warsaw ghetto, I will look into it and report back, when I get past
my deadlines.  If I'm wrong, I'll retract.

Neil Schulman
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 456       Thu Apr 02, 1992
SOFTSERV [NeilSchulman]      at 01:55 EST
 
Damn it, I don't want to get sucked into this again.

M.RUNGU, Message 393: Paranoia by one side doesn't justify paranoia on the
other side.  You can't walk into this assuming that the documents released by
the post-communist regimes will be tampered with by the mainstream historians.

Stop it.

M.RUNGU, Message 394: Don't draw inferences from my statements that I didn't
intend.  It's vicious nonsense to blame anti-Semitism on Jewish bigotry, and
derive from that the idea that the Jews "caused" a Holocaust that you think
didn't kuch happen anyway.  Make up your mind.

The main cause of anti-Semitism, as far as I can tell, goes back about two
thousand years.  A spin-off religion of Judaism followed a rabbi named Jesus. 
The Romans felt he was a threat, and executed him.  Later, when Rome became
Christianized, it was a matter of political necessity to put the blame for
that execution elsewhere, and the Jews -- who were mortally offended anyway
that Jesus claimed to be their God -- were a likely candidate for the job.

The grudge match between Christians and Jews has been going on ever since.

M.RUNGU, Message 398.  I do not consider the Mermelstein suit frivolous -- I
merely think the criteria used in a criminal case should have been used to
determine which side should have won.

AH.STEIN, 422.  I am perfectly comfortable with myself and my religious creed.
"Self-hating Jew" is one of those buzzwords which is used against any Jew who
demands goodness and fairness be applied equally to Jew and Gentile alike.

Can I go now?

Neil Schulman
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 457       Thu Apr 02, 1992
ERIC-M                       at 02:42 EST
 
 >>> D.FRIEDMAN14

 > Along with everybody else, I still await with deepest interest the story
 > of how you [M.Rungo], a self-proclaimed ignorant, became one of our
 > leading authorities on denial in a 24-hour period.

I'm sure there's a very interesting story there, Dave.  And I would guess that
Rungo has been just as factual about this incident as he has been in his
subsequent posts.  The guy (gal?) must be a genius to have learned that
quickly.

You'll probably get your answer to that question soon after Raven has backed
up his claim that the Holocaust "hoax" was part of a Zionist conspiracy.  I
wouldn't hold my breath on either question, though.  :-)


  /
 |/ ric
 |/

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 458       Thu Apr 02, 1992
TERMY                        at 04:01 EST
 
 Excerpts from a sermon by Cardinal August Count von Galen, Bishop of 
 Muenster.  The following is related to Pooh's post #437, which is also 
 a clergyman's response to the "T4" program (euthanasia):

 ...Never under any circumstances may a human being kill an innocent 
 person apart from war and legitimate self-defense..  On 6 July, I 
 already had cause to add to the pastoral letter the following 
 explanation:  for some moonths we have been hearing reports that, ono 
 the orders of Berlin, patients from mental asylums who have been ill 
 for a long time and may appear incurable, are being compulsorily 
 removed.  Then, after a short time, the relatives are regularly 
 informed that the corpse has been burnt and the ashes can be 
 delivered.  There is a general suspicion verging on certainty that 
 these numerous unexpected deaths of mentally ill people do not occur 
 of themselves...that the doctrine is being followed, according to 
 which one may destroy so-called 'worthless life', that is kill 
 innocent people if one considers that their lives are of no further 
 value for the nation and the state.

 ...I have been assured that the Reich Interior Ministry and the office 
 of the Reich Doctors' Leader, Dr. Conti, make it clear that in reality 
 a large number of mentally ill people in Germany have been 
 deliberately killed and more will be killed in the future.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 459       Thu Apr 02, 1992
TERMY                        at 04:02 EST
 
 Thousands of copies of Bishop Galen's sermon were printed and 
 distributed.  The Nazi leadership's response?  Read on:

 After the ministerial conference Dr. G[oebbels] spoke to me about the 
 sermon of the Bishop of Muenster.  He did not know what one could 
 effectively do at the moment.  I explained to him that in my opinion 
 there could be only one effective measure, namely to hang the Bishop, 
 and that I had already informed Reichsleiter Bormann accordingly.

 [Party Chancellory propaganda official Walter Tiessler in a minute to 
 Bormann, dated 13 August, 1941]

 ------

 Certain individuals who frequent another national network will, no 
 doubt, find special meaning in the above "hang the Bishop".  

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 460       Thu Apr 02, 1992
TERMY                        at 04:04 EST
 
 Message 307  G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]

 -> I would never dream of redefining the word. I am using "disinfection"
 -> in the same way the Germans used it during WWII, to denote the
 -> elimination of pests from buildings, etc. YOU may be attempting to
 -> define "disinfection" as applying only against bacteria, but this is
 -> your modern usage, not that used by the Germans during WWII.

 A "T4 operation" (euthanasia program) statistician's report:

 Up to 1 September 1941, 70,273 persons have been disinfected.  
 Distributed among the individual institutions for the years 1940 and 
 1941 this figure breaks down as follows: 

                         1940            1941            Total
 _____________________________________________________________________
 A (Grafeneck)           9,839                           9,839
 B (Brandenburg)         9,772                           9,772
 Be (Bernburg)                           8,601           8,601
 C (Linz)(Hartheim)      9,670           8,599          18,269
 D (Sonnenstein)         5,943           7,777          13,720
 E (Hadamar)                            10,072          10,072
 _____________________________________________________________________
 Totals                 35,224          35,049          70,273
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 461       Thu Apr 02, 1992
TERMY                        at 04:06 EST
 
 Dr. Eduard Brandt, another T4 statistician used the statistics posted 
 in the last message to work out the savings made as a result of the 
 program:

 On the assumption that the level of nutrition of the inmates of 
 asylums will remain the same as at present even after the end of the 
 war, the savings in foodstuffs in the case of 70,273 disinfected 
 persoons with an average life expectancy of ten years would be as 
 follows:

 Type of foodstuff                       kg
 ______________________________________________________
 Potatoes                            189,737,160
 Meat and sausage products            13,492,440
 Bread                                59,029,320
 Flour                                12,649,200
 Butter                                4,216,440
 Butter fat                              421,680
 Margarine                             3,794,760
 Bacon                                   531,240
 Quark                                 1,054,080
 Cheese                                1,054,080
 Special foods                         1,686,600
 Pastry products                       1,475,766
 Sago, etc.                              421,608
 Coffee substitute                     3,373,080
 Jam                                   5,902,920
 Sugar                                 7,589,520
 Eggs                                 33,731,040 items
 Vegetables                           88,544,040
 Pulses                                4,216,440
 Salt and spice substitutes            1,054,080
 ______________________________________________________
 Total                               400,244,520 kg
                                 = 141,775,573.80 RM

 On the basis of an average daily cost [per patient] of RM 3.50 there 
 will be:

 1. a daily saving of RM                          245,955.50
 2. a yearly saving of RM                      88,543,980.00
 3. with a life expectancy of ten years RM    885,439,800.00

 in words:  eight hundred and eighty-five million four hundred and 
 thirty-five thousand and eight hundred Reich marks.

 i.e., this sum will be or has been saved up to 1 September 1941 
 through the disinfection of 70,273 persons carried out so far.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 462       Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 04:47 EST
 
 To Carl Fink (regarding 194) ---
 > if Pressac says he broke with Faurisson, and Faurisson that he 
 ejected Pressac, why should we simply accept Faurisson's account ... 
 ?
 .
 Your question poses a problem because most of us will never meet 
 either of these two men ... let alone both of them ... so that we 
 might make our own determination of their characters. Having read 
 some of the work of both men, I am inclined to believe Faurisson, 
 however you needn't be bound by my example. If this point truly 
 troubles you (even though it is hardly one of the main points of the 
 discussion), I would suggest that you also read samples of both men's 
 work, and see which you feel has a better grasp of reality. Of 
 course, this might take some time. Sorry.
 ---
 > I'm not an engineer (or car mechanic), but my knowledge of 
 chemistry is sufficient to tell me what causes CO production in any 
 carbon- compound burning engine. To be explicit, it's incomplete 
 combustion. Now, presume that some Germans are going to gas some 
 people. Is it beyond their technical prowess to adjust the carburetor 
 (or whatever fuel-injection system diesel engines use) so that the 
 mixture is too rich? On most modern cars, one would have to turn what 
 amounts to a screw. Rich mixture --> more CO.
 .
 This method works well in an Otto-cycle (spark ignition) engine, but 
 then, a spark-ignition engine already puts out plenty of CO to effect 
 the killing process. I don't remember enough of my diesel engine 
 training to state for certain that you can enrich the mixture on a 
 diesel engine to produce more CO, but even if you could, why attempt 
 to make a silk purse from a sow's ear? The Germans not only had 
 spark-ignition engines, they also had busses that ran largely on 
 carbon monoxide (that is, there was a CO generator mounted to the 
 back of the bus to create the CO needed to run the bus). Either of 
 these vehicles would have been MUCH better for CO exterminations, yet 
 no one has ever claimed that the Germans used these. Furthermore, 
 diesel engines are so bad at creating CO that it would be more 
 efficient to simply lock the victims in a sealed container and wait 
 for them to run out of air, and vastly more efficient to lock the 
 victims in a sealed container and ignite a flame inside the container 
 to hasten the elimination of oxygen from the atmosphere! Either of 
 THESE methods would not only work better than trying to produce CO 
 with a diesel engine, and they would have required less of the 
 precious fuel required to run an engine while exterminating the 
 victims. The story simply does not make sense.
 ---
 Finally, you comment about CO2 might be accurate, however, all the 
 accounts claim death by CO. Go figure.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 463       Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 04:48 EST
 
 To Dave Friedman (regarding 209) ---
 > Show me evidence of an Allied systematic program of genocide, 
 similar to the German one. 
 .
 This is a trick question, right? Because there were no systematic 
 German programs of genocide, and there were systematic Allied 
 programs of genocide, there is no way to answer this question within 
 the syntax of the question itself. Clever.
 ---
 However, if you wish to know about Allied genocides, you might check 
 out the millions starved by Stalin before the war (he was an Ally, 
 right?), or the atrocities committed against the Sudeten Germans 
 after the war, or the treatment of the German POW reclassified as DEF 
 by Eisenhower so he could starve them to death legally, or the 
 firebombing of German civilians during the war, or the retributions 
 carried out against Germans by vigilantes after the war, or Operation 
 Keelhaul, or ... well, perhaps you get the picture.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 464       Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 04:48 EST
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 212) ---
 > You have admitted on another network that you have seen Pressac's 
 book but have not read it. Is this true and, if so, could you please 
 cite the source for you list of page numbers from Pressac and what 
 those pages relate? Is this why you are now having such difficulty 
 citing references for your assertions? 
 .
 Easy. I read several reviews of Pressac's book, and compiled a list 
 of items that caught my attention. Then I called both the Santa 
 Monica public library and the Los Angeles city central library in 
 search of this mysterious book. Neither had it or had heard of it! I 
 then sallied forth to the Simon Wiesenthal Center, compared my list 
 against the book to see that the citations were accurate. So no, I do 
 not have the book and I currently do not have $100 with which to 
 purchase one. However, I stand by my statements, and point out that 
 your comments to the contrary do not prove them otherwise ... and you 
 have a copy of the book!
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 465       Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 04:48 EST
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 215) ---
 > Now, if you had read the book, you would realize that Pressac 
 quoted a number of official sources that claimed different numbers. 
 Therefore, because these numbers fluctuated, so must the divisor.
 .
 Whoa! Lemme see if I got this right. Pressac refers to several 
 sources. None of them has the "right" number. So he creates a 
 "divisor" that ... when applied to these "wrong" numbers ... makes 
 "right" numbers? Who supplied these divisors? Why doesn't he simply 
 quote one source that DOES have the "right" numbers and then stick 
 with it? And if he does come up with one source with the "right" 
 numbers, how does he know it is right and the others wrong? And if 
 the other figures are demonstrably wrong (based on another, better, 
 source), then why apply a divisor to them to make them "right"?
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 466       Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 04:49 EST
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 216) ---
 > Excuse me but your original message was concerning Pressac's work. 
 By your stating that the photos came from the "Duerrfeld file of 
 Nuremberg trial number 6" that was an implicit statement that that 
 statement came from Pressac's book. Since it did not, my correction 
 stands as written. 
 .
 Your reading of my posts is apparently no better than your readings 
 of the German documents. When I brought up the Duerrfeld reference, 
 it was in parentheses, as were other of my comments on the excerpts 
 from Pressac. Your "correction" is nonsense because you completely 
 twisted my message to suit your own ends, and now you attempt to use 
 your incorrect interpretation to cloud the real issue: did the photos 
 come from the Duerrfeld file or not? If you don't know, just say so.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 467       Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 04:49 EST
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 217) ---
 > Ah, now I see why you were so uncomfortable with me disclosing the 
 boiling point of HCN! You should have told me sooner or, since I had 
 already disclosed it, you perhaps should not have made this 
 statement.
 > Because HCN has such a low boiling point, that means at a 
 relatively low temperature (25 degrees C or about 77 degrees F) it is 
 in the form of a gas. Gas does not "cling" to lungs any more than it 
 does to walls. Gas is easily ventilated and, therefore, does not have 
 time (as Pressac points out) to impregnate exposed surfaces.
 .
 Auschwitz lies just above the 50th parallel, or roughly as close to 
 the North Pole as Winnipeg, Canada. In the summer, it may reach 25.7 
 degrees (78.3 F), but unless everything is at that temperature or 
 above, HCN will condense. This means that for most of the year (and 
 probably much of the day, even in the summer) the "gas chambers" 
 would have had to be heated. Are there any heaters in the "gas 
 chambers"? Answer: No.
 .
 But let's take as a hypothesis that these efficient Germans found 
 some way to heat these rooms on cool or cold days so they could carry 
 out the executions without pause. What happens when you start to 
 ventilate a warm room with cool (or cold) air? You get condensation. 
 You get pockets of highly concentrated HCN gas. In some instances, 
 you get concentrations high enough (over 6 percent) to become 
 explosive. Pressac is not an engineer, and has no concept of how HCN 
 must be handled. If he was, he would not claim that there was a "gas 
 chamber" at Auschwitz, when there is not (and never was) so much as a 
 door separating the Krema from the "gas chamber". I don't mean "no 
 gas-tight door," I mean no door, which leaves only an open passage 
 devoid of hinges, seals, etc. This is the person you rely upon to 
 rebut Leuchter?
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 468       Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 04:50 EST
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 220) ---
 > BTW, have you seen the video that was taken of him collecting the 
 samples? It had me laughing so hard I almost died. Some of the 
 samples he took, he put in nice little baggies....however, he didn't 
 label them as he took them. Then, other samples he just up and forgot 
 about his little baggies and stuffed them in his shirt pocket!
 > I truly consider that a GREAT scientific method, don't you? 
 .
 No, I don't. But although that may be what you saw, that is not what 
 occurred. Perhaps you'd better look at it again from an objective 
 point of view. I called Mr. Leuchter to verify that his handling of 
 the samples was correct. Not only did he assure me that it was, he 
 further stated that 1) if it had not been correct his testimony would 
 not have been accepted at the Zuendel trial, and 2) he received 
 comments from other engineers that he went overboard in the amount of 
 care he took in handling the samples.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 469       Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 04:50 EST
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 221) ---
 Weren't you the person scolding me for not quoting things Just So? 
 You should look at my post 182 again, and respond to the entire 
 comment ... if you can.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 470       Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 04:51 EST
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 223) ---
 > The works by Hilberg, Reitlinger, Fleming, Bauer, etc. ARE the 
 works to which I'm referring when I speak of "scholarly circles" and 
 Holocaust history.
 .
 Ahh, so when these "scholarly circles" disagree with each other, I 
 should just ignore the discrepancies and take the Holocaust story on 
 faith? This does make things easier ... especially since Hilberg now 
 says "no Fuehrer order", as he used to. I guess what you are saying 
 is that the key to studying the Holocaust story is to first believe 
 in it wholeheartedly, and then discard anything that does not support 
 that blind faith.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 471       Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 04:51 EST
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 225) ---
 > I'm just wondering, however, why you did not include the fact that 
 Missouri has executed no one during Armontrout's tenure there as 
 warden?
 > You'll find that on page 353 of Lenski's book.
 .
 You should complain to someone; you received a damaged copy of 
 Lenski's book. Let me show you what you are missing:
 ---
 "... Though Missouri has executed no one during Armontrout's tenure, 
 he has witnessed two gassings in other states, and helped with one.*"
 .
 "* At three minutes past midnight on January 6, 1989, Bill Armontrout 
 presided over his first execution, and Missouri's first since 1965. 
 It was accomplished, however, by means of a lethal injection."
 ---
 Interesting error.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 472       Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 04:52 EST
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 238) ---
 > There was a de-lousing chamber at Dachau (which was probably one of 
 the gas chambers that Kevin saw) and there WAS a gas chamber....but 
 it was never used.
 .
 Correction: it has been variously reported that there was a "gas 
 chamber" at Dachau that was never used, but I could make a similar 
 statement about the spare bedroom in my house. Your statement about a 
 "gas chamber" at Dachau is therefore misleading.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 473       Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 04:52 EST
 
 To Termy (regarding 242) ---
 > Scientific method calls for a control sample to be taken from an 
 unaffected source, not from a source known to be affected. Leuchter's 
 use of samples taken from the delousing chambers in Block 3 as 
 controls is equivalent to using a group that's administered 10 times 
 the therapeutic level of a drug when testing that medication's 
 effectiveness. Instead of using a sample that's known to be 
 contaminated, he would have, if using proper scientific method, taken 
 a sample from a source in the same vicinity which was not known to 
 have been exposed to HCN, then compared the levels of cyanic 
 compounds in it, the Krema samples and Block 3 samples.
 .
 I disagree. Leuchter was looking for the presence of something. To 
 establish what it looks like when you find that something, he needed 
 to take a sample from a known exposed surface. Had he not done this, 
 ALL his samples would have come back with no trace of cyanide 
 compounds. This would not have changed the results much, but it would 
 have been virtually impossible for anyone but an expert to judge the 
 results on their own. By including a sample of a known contaminated 
 surface, Leuchter provided a basis for comparison.
 ---
 > Allow me to clarify for you and to eradicate the misunderstanding 
 which Time- Life has apparently placed in your mind. There were six 
 extermination camps. These were Auschwitz-Birkenau, Belzec, Chelmno 
 (Kulmnoff), Majdanek, Sobibor and Treblinka.
 > Please note that Dachau, Mathausen, Bergen-Belsen, Buchenwald, 
 etc., are missing from this list.
 .
 Let me do some clarification of my own. In 1949 or 1950, when this 
 book was being written/assembled, the editors at Time-Life "knew" 
 only of death camps that you now say were not death camps. In other 
 words, the Holocaust story was still in its formative stages at this 
 late date ... to the extent that reasonably well-informed people 
 (such as the editors at T-L) were COMPLETELY wrong about the "death 
 camps". It was not until a few more years had passed, that we saw the 
 show trials that established the "death camps" in Poland. And, as 
 even Pooh.bah acknowledges, trials DO NOT establish history.
 .
 Therefore, we see a myth in the making. I will be generous and say 
 that the editors of Time-Life were probably repeating some of the 
 wartime propaganda. By the time that propaganda story began to break 
 down, the Auschwitz story was well on its way to being ensconced.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 474       Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 04:53 EST
 
 To Dave Friedman (regarding 315) ---
 > People do indeed have poor memories for some things. Where they 
 left the car keys, whether they fed the dog, going to class (oops. 
 ). Spending time in a concentration camp, being caught in an 
 "Aktion," the smell of burning flesh, etc. don't quite fall into the 
 same category.
 > Since this is common sense, you must have another reason for 
 considering Holocaust victims' testimony suspect. Or do you propose 
 to tell me that there is no difference???
 .
 In the face of overwhelming evidence that eyewitnesses are unreliable 
 (even Jewish ones!), I would need more than simply your assertion to 
 the contrary. I refer you to my message 301 on this, which ... if 
 read in full ... addresses your question.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 475       Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 04:53 EST
 
 To John Stengel (regarding 317) ---
 > Lets assume the Governor cuts the Warden's budget ... (and etc.)
 .
 These paragraphs seem to be nothing more than a figment of your 
 imagination. Am I supposed to respond to them?
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 476       Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 04:53 EST
 
 To B.Eaton2 (regarding 318) ---
 > The burden of proof rests with you. What evidence do you have that 
 the Holocaust never existed?
 .
 I'll ask it before and I'll ask it again: what proof would be 
 considered adequate to establish that something did NOT happen? Once 
 you figure out the answer to this question, you will understand why 
 the burden of proof is on the exterminationists, not the 
 revisionists.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 477       Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 04:54 EST
 
 To Kevin Quinn (regarding 319, et al) ---
 Because your account(s) of Dachau are fairly similar to other 
 accounts I have heard from U.S. soldiers who were there, and because 
 all of you are incorrect in your impressions, the next question has 
 to be: "What were you told to expect upon entering Dachau?" That is, 
 were you subjected to any propaganda, briefings, rumors, etc. that 
 might have lead you (and others) to jump to an erroneous conclusion?
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 478       Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 04:54 EST
 
 to Termy (regarding 320) ---
 > I should think that the CENTRAL fact concerning Holocaust is that 
 approximately so many millions of people were killed simply because 
 they were Jewish or Gypsy.
 .
 If you take as a central fact the very point that you should be 
 attempting to prove, then you have short-circuited the debate, and 
 are in fact looking only for items that support your preconceived 
 notion of what happened.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 479       Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 04:55 EST
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 334) ---
 > ... could you please define "eyewitness testimony?"
 .
 In the context of the Holocaust story, no, I cannot define 
 "eyewitness testimony" ... at least not simply. It seems to consist 
 of a ragged mish-mosh of rumor, innuendo, invention, exaggeration, 
 etc., as long as the "testimony" is leveled against the Germans. This 
 includes testimony given under oath. To the best of my knowledge, 
 none of those who would normally be called "eyewitnesses" for the 
 "defense" (that is, those who were at the "death camps" and swear 
 they saw no gassings, etc.) are referred to as "eyewitnesses." 
 Therefore, because of the slanted nature to which the term us put, I 
 cannot readily define it in terms that apply to all cases.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 480       Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 04:55 EST
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 335) ---
 > I have stated previously that I have reviewed the carbon copy of 
 the [Franke-Gricksch Resettlement Action Report]. You claim that 
 someone told you that it doesn't exist. It then does become your word 
 (or that of whoever gave you the erroneous information) against mine.
 .
 You keep referring to this Report (see 298 for yet another example), 
 so it seems to be very important to your position, however you seem 
 to be unable to answer a simple question about it. I'm not trying to 
 get into a "did not, did too" argument here. I have described in some 
 detail the characteristics of the carbon copy of the typescript copy 
 of this alleged report. In return, I asked for nothing more than a 
 description from you of the document you claim to have "reviewed". 
 Why is this such a tough request? For many of your other documentary 
 claims, you roll out post after post of detail. Yet about this one, 
 none.
 ---
 You have stated many times that you refer to the original documents, 
 where possible. I guess I could make that same claim, although it 
 would be misleading. But when YOU say that, I (and I'll bet there are 
 others) take that to mean that you have seen the actual document ... 
 like, close enough to touch it. I do NOT take it to mean that you 
 have seen reproductions of the document in a book somewhere ... heck, 
 if that is your standard, I can honestly claim to have seen many of 
 the "original documents" myself.
 ---
 This is why it is important to clear up this matter of the F-G 
 Report. If you have seen it in person ... this document that 
 supposedly does not exist ... then I and others need to know about 
 this. This represents a breakthrough. If, on the other hand, you have 
 not seen it (which includes seeing it only as a reproduction 
 somewhere), then we need to know that, too, because this calls into 
 question every other statement you have made as to the method of your 
 research. You owe this not only to me, but also to the many people on 
 this board who wouldn't be able to discuss the Holocaust story for 
 more than about 15 seconds without reverting to name-calling and 
 hysterics. You are their standard-bearer. If you have lead them to 
 believe that you are in an unassailable castle when in fact you are 
 hiding behind a house of cards, it is only fair that they be given 
 the chance to take up the slack before your edifice comes tumbling 
 down.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 481       Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 04:56 EST
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 336) ---
 > It seems, then, that "washing the HCN from the skin" is not part of 
 the "rehabilitation process" even when the source of poisoning is 
 THROUGH the skin!
 .
 It seems that once again your sources have let you down. From the 
 DuPont manual, "Hydrogen Cyanide: Storage and Handling," we find 
 this:
 .
 Personal Safety and First Aid
 ...G. First Aid - Skin or Eye Contact (skin absorption) ---
 1. For Eye Contact: ...
 2. For Skin Contact: Wash skin to remove the cyanide while removing 
 all contaminated clothing, including shoes. Do not delay. Skin 
 absorption can occur from cyanide vapor or liquids.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 482       Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 04:56 EST
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 337) ---
 >> 312 Raven
 >> I have read of the accidental poisoning of a prisoner in a German
 >> camp, who was revived and nursed back to health.
 >Please cite a source for this statement.
 .
 Uhh, gladly. Check Pressac, page 25. Rablin, a prisoner employed in 
 disinfecting with Zyklon B, proves just how dangerous this gas was to 
 use. Rablin, only slightly exposed to the gas, was hospitalized and 
 took two months to recover. It is paradoxical that the Germans tried 
 to cure of gas poisoning a man whom, the story goes, they should have 
 killed with precisely that gas.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 483       Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 04:57 EST
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 338) ---
 > From page 9049 of the court transcript:
 >"THE COURT: Well, he [Leuchter] said - I realize his opinion on this 
 is that there were never any gassings or there were never any 
 exterminations carried on in this facility. As far as I'm concerned, 
 from what I've heard, he is not capable of giving that opinion."
 > This, of course, was after Leuchter's credentials had been reviewed 
 by the Court.
 .
 Ah, but you are not telling the whole story, are you? It is true that 
 the Court did not admit Leuchter as an expert witness across the 
 board, but they did admit him for some things, didn't they? They must 
 have, because he testified --- mustn't he have been an expert 
 witness? And although the printed copy of his Report was not admitted 
 as such, Leuchter was allowed to verbally testify to virtually all of 
 its contents (the Court demanded that another witness testify about 
 crematoria, and that a third witness read the results of the chemical 
 analysis). Thus, Leuchter WAS an expert witness, and the contents of 
 the Leuchter Report WERE admitted as evidence.
 ---
 By the way, you state that the court transcript is primary evidence, 
 and is thus better than my secondary evidence. However, my evidence 
 comes from Fred Leuchter himself ... a true primary source. This 
 makes your transcript a secondary source. By your own statement, you 
 have not consulted the best possible source.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 484       Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 04:57 EST
 
 To Termy (regarding 350) ---
 > A week or so ago, a claim was made (by, Mr. Raven, I believe) that 
 there were 50,000 Jews remaining in Berlin at war's end.
 .
 I made no such statement. Can you be more clear about what you think 
 I said?
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 485       Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 04:57 EST
 
 To D.Berkowitz (regarding 356) ---
 > Not so well done, Dave. The rebuttal has been deleted. Strange 
 exercise of sysopery, IMO. Messages #138-139 which had nothing to do 
 with the holocaust and contained caustic and defamatory references to 
 Jews remain, and my rebuttal was denied. I think the sysop has 
 admitted his inability to measure Jewish sensibilities, and I think 
 he should pass over the topic to someone who can.
 .
 It may surprise you to learn that I also have my disagreements with 
 the way Graffiti edits some messages and leaves others. However, I 
 believe he is making the best of a tough situation, and I applaud him 
 for having the strength to put up with a topic with which he has no 
 love whatsoever, and yet doing so in as fair a manner as can be 
 expected. I feel fortunate to have Mr. Helton as a sysop, and given 
 his track record (even from my point of view), I doubt we could do 
 much better. 
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 486       Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 04:58 EST
 
 To Eric-M (regarding 359) ---
 Regarding HCN gas and "contact time" with walls, etc.
 .
 As previously posted by me, once the ambient temperature drops below 
 78.3 degrees F, condensation begins to take place. Any porous surface 
 (skin, walls, clothing, wood, etc.) that comes in contact with the 
 condensate will absorb it to some extent. The walls of the Missouri 
 gas chamber are (were) steel with a sealing coat of paint over it 
 (modern gas chambers use epoxy). The walls of the so-called gas 
 chambers in Auschwitz were no so protected, so they would have 
 absorbed HCN condensate.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 487       Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 04:58 EST
 
 To Eric-M (regarding 360) ---
 > When he [Raven] has expressed the idea that the Holocaust is a 
 propaganda vehicle used by the Zionists to further Judaic causes, he 
 should support such claims.
 .
 You are getting mixed up, here. By reference to "bloodthirsty 
 Zionists" was in regards to the conditions at the concentration camps 
 at the end of the war, it had nothing to do with a Zionist conspiracy 
 to promote the Holocaust. The "bloodthirsty Zionists" to which I 
 refer are FDR's advisors.
 ---
 As to the claim that I said the Holocaust is a propaganda vehicle 
 used by the Zionists to further Judaic causes, here in Los Angeles in 
 the last week or so there have been 6 references to the Holocaust 
 (something that supposedly happened half a century ago) in connection 
 with demands being made by Zionist groups. If you choose not to see 
 this, fine. But it is off topic. Virtually all aspects concerning the 
 Holocaust story can be dealt with without getting into conspiracy 
 theories.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 488       Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 04:59 EST
 
 To Eric-M (regarding 361) ---
 > I don't know. :-) This is what I've been told, though, by 
 knowledgeable chemical experts. Personally, I've never smelled HCN. 
 
 .
 Here's the deal. I called DuPont and was told that there is a slight 
 odor to HCN. What I was thinking when I made that post was Rudolf 
 Hoess' Sonderbefehl (special order) of 12.Aug.1942, which came after 
 an accident with Zyklon B, in which he says (in part):
 .
 The gas being used at present contains less odorous warning agent and 
 is therefore especially dangerous.
 ---
 I assumed this meant that HCN was nearly or completely odorless on 
 its own, but apparently there is a slight aroma. The DuPont 
 literature on HCN makes refer to a Sniff Test, but unfortunately that 
 page is missing from my copy. However, I agree with you that this is 
 a test best left to someone else.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 489       Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 04:59 EST
 
 To Carl Fink (regarding 366) ---
 Gee, Carl, thanks for asking so many Long Answer questions : ->
 ---
 > Raven, would you really like to disinfect a barracks or morgue with 
 hydrogen cyanide gas? A barracks, in particular, is not sealed - the 
 gas would escape into the environment, and contaminate any clothing 
 or other items in the room. It would be as big a production as 
 "tenting" a house is today - if the Germans could do that, with WW II 
 technology-plastics to make the tent from.
 .
 I suppose if it was my job to do so, I would. Barracks are not 
 sealed, but they do require disinfection because the lice do not 
 confine themselves to easily-disinfected locales. If you had seen the 
 movie "Architects of Doom" you would have seen footage of men 
 disinfecting a factory with Zyklon B. Part of the precautions involve 
 taping over (with what appeared to be paper tape and glue --- applied 
 with a brush) window cracks, door cracks, etc., to seal the building. 
 Believe it or not, there WAS life before plastic!
 ---
 > Also, you yourself have contended that these chambers were special 
 delousing chambers for clothing (as opposed to a morgue or barracks). 
 Presumably after going to the trouble of making a special delousing 
 chamber, the Germans used it more often than twice a year.
 .
 Also presumably, because clothing is so much easier to disinfect 
 (just pop it into the ol' gas chamber), it could be done on a regular 
 basis ... say for example, you could gas the clothes of all new 
 arrivals. However, if there ever arose an occasion when the 
 infestation became acute, you would have to disinfect the barracks, 
 etc. Given the properties of Zyklon B, you can appreciate that this 
 must have been quite a procedure during the cold months.
 ---
 > By the way, if vented HCN makes the gas chambers impossible, why 
 doesn't it make the delousing chambers impossible?
 .
 I'll go you one better and also explain why it doesn't make barracks 
 disinfection impossible. When Zyklon B is used to disinfect clothing 
 and barracks, the time allotted for the procedure is many hours. The 
 actual gassing can last several hours, and then the airing-out 
 process can last 24 hours or more, depending on temperature, etc. The 
 comparatively long disinfection time allows the gas to disperse 
 fully, so there is less chance of pockets of gas that can cause 
 problems. Then, the comparatively long airing-out process reduces the 
 possibility of accidents because the flow rate is so low. Of course, 
 even after extended airing out, it is still necessary to move things 
 around (and beat mattresses, etc.) to ensure that all the Zyklon B 
 has vented off.
 .
 By contrast, the stories about the homicidal gassings almost all say 
 that the people are herded in, the gas is introduced into the room, 
 fifteen minutes later the screaming stops, the doors to the "gas 
 chamber" are thrown open, and the bodies dragged out, sometimes by 
 workers who are smoking and eating, and have no protective clothing 
 or respirators!
 .
 This is a big difference from the manner in which Zyklon B was used 
 for disinfection.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 490       Thu Apr 02, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 05:00 EST
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 382) ---
 > 169 Raven: Please read CAT 15 TOP 7 MSG 297-302 for the answers to 
 your questions.
 .
 Why is the world did you respond to my questions in TOPic 7? Is it 
 because you know I don't visit TOPic 7, so you needn't fear rebuttal? 
 If you have something to say to me, say it here. I must say, it 
 certainly seems odd that when I ask you why you are dodging the 
 question, you post your answer somewhere remote from the discussion!
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 491       Thu Apr 02, 1992
M.RUNGU                      at 05:34 EST
 
  To POOH.BAH (154)

So now you are telling us that you "didn't realize the holocaust deniers [sic]
were on trial here"?  It seems to me that certain people have taken it upon
themselves to act as judge/jury/executioner of those who have questioned the
holocaust.  Is this schizophrenia we are witnessing?  You have to admit that
you have some of us confused.  Attack after attack is made upon Leuchter,
Weber, Faurisson.  Their credentials and professional qualifications are
jeered at and rejected.  Their findings are arrogantly dismissed. They are
labeled and libeled and smeared.  And then we're told that they're "not on
trial".  Incredible.  Are there TWO POOH.BAHs here, doing different things, or
is there only one whose left and right hands are performing different and
opposite tasks?

You then went on to say that you agreed with the Canadian court decision to
accept Mark Weber as an expert on the holocaust.  Again, I am confused.  So
you are finally respecting Mr. Weber's expertise in this area of history?  And
if so, and that does seem to be the case if you agree as you said you agree,
with the court decision, then how does this jive with your outrageous mud-
slinging at the Institute for Historical Review?  After all, Mark Weber is an
Associate Editor of their JOURNAL OF HISTORICAL REVIEW and the editor of their
NEWSLETTER.  He has also been a regular contributor to the JOURNAL over the
years since it's inception, and has presented papers at it's revisionist
conventions and spoken there.

I know that the fanatical believers in every holocaust allegation equally
fanatically hate the Institute, and paint it's members in the most lurid
colors.  And yet one of it's most prominent representatives is admitted to be
an EXPERT.  These intellectual backward double flip-flops are driving me up
the wall.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 492       Thu Apr 02, 1992
M.RUNGU                      at 05:34 EST
 
  To POOH.BAH (157)

You "own, have read and analyzed virtually every book they [the IHR] have
published or distributed that denies the holocaust in some manner or other"? 
And you have "read more of the IHR material than anyone participating here"? 
I find that extremely hard to believe.

Why don't you help us all out and present us with a bibliography, showing
author/title/publisher of all these books published or offered by the
Institute that you are so expert on.  I am sure that many of the readers of
this message stream would be interested to know just which titles have been
available.  Then, as this discussion progresses, we can test your fantastic
expert knowledge on each title's contents here and there as necessary.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 493       Thu Apr 02, 1992
M.RUNGU                      at 05:35 EST
 
  To AH.STEIN (164)

Are you an "expert" on the IHR too?  Your absurd characterization of it was
instantly demolished when you revealed that you weren't even sure of what
"IHR" stands for.  It DOES stand for 'Institute for Historical Review' and
that is exactly what it does.

To those readers who would like to hear another, and more accurate, view of
what the Institute is and what it stands for: "The Institute for Historical
Review, founded in 1978, is the world's leading organization carrying on the
proud tradition of Historical Revisionism, now a worldwide phenomenon.  The
IHR is non-ideological and non-partisan.  We are not interested in
rehabilitating this or that regime.  We are interested only in rehabilitating
the TRUTH, or, as Dr. Harry Elmer Barnes put it - 'Bringing history into
accord with facts.'" - taken from "The Tradition of Historical Revisionism" by
Tom Marcellus (Director, IHR).

Considering that so many of the thoughtful articles published in their JOURNAL
have been from former inmates of concentration camps and from anti-Nazi
intellectuals, I would say that it is a very far cry indeed from your slur "a
group of neo-Nazis".

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 494       Thu Apr 02, 1992
M.RUNGU                      at 05:35 EST
 
  To A.K.QUINN (195)

So you "saw" the "gas chambers" at Dachau?  I am astounded.  Your statement
flies directly in the face of the fact that no holocaust historian or writer
on the holocaust, agrees with you and in fact DENIES such allegations.  The
holocaust revisionists, on the other hand, have been laughing at such tall
tales for many decades, and when the holocausters came on board and agreed
with them that the stories of "gas chambers at Dachau" were absurd, both camps
were able to finally move on to the Auschwitz debating areas.  Even POOH.BAH
has admitted that nobody was gassed at Dachau.  Are you saying POOH.BAH is
wrong?

Are you saying that BOTH camps are wrong, and that since you "saw" these "gas
chambers", that history has to be re-written yet again? I'm not trying to
harass you on this; I think that what has happened here is that either 1)  You
were TOLD that the structures you saw were "gas chambers"
    and you accepted it. /and/ 2)  You misidentified "de-lousing" facilities
for "gas chambers".
    The former was used to de-louse clothing in order to reduce the
    incidence of disease, and thereby to SAVE the lives of inmates,
    while the latter were purportedly structures used to gas
    millions of Jews and "others".  Are you clear on the difference
    between the two types of structures? /or/ 3)  You visually saw crematoria
facilities and either thought or
    were told that these were "gas chambers".  Do you realize that
    the purpose of crematoria were to destroy the bodies of human
    beings that had died from ALL causes (disease, etc.)?

These errors in identification were extremely common.  Such errors were
compounded by "confessions" extracted from former camp personnel who readily
"admitted" to anything and everything they were told to "confess" and "admit"
to, for fear of their lives and the lives of their families, and the
irresponsibility of the mass media, which took photos of the de-lousing and
crematoria facilities and presented the photos in world newspapers with the
caption: "gas chamber".

It really astounds me that after both the holocausters AND the revisionists
have, together, agreed that no gassings took place at Dachau, someone actually
steps forward and asserts that he "saw" the "gas chambers".

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 495       Thu Apr 02, 1992
M.RUNGU                      at 05:36 EST
 
  To D.FRIEDMAN14 (196)

So you accept and believe Mr. Quinn's story in which he "saw" the "gas
chambers" at Dachau?   And that therefore Jews and "others" were "gassed"
there?  Are you then saying that ALL the holcoaust writers and historians are
wrong on this?  After all, they say that NO gassings took place at Dachau and
that stories alleging this are FALSE.

But if you still insist that the story is true, then I will say that I would
like to get in touch with you privately...I have some swamp land in Florida
that you might be interested in buying...

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 497       Thu Apr 02, 1992
H.P.SKALIKS [Hans-Peter]     at 06:08 EST
 
POOH.BAH...message 443

The man is talking through his hat. Corpses, fresh or otherwise, don't burn
well at all. They are mostly water and their basic design hasn't changed since
the 1940s. Any funeral director can verify that basic fact of human
physiology.

That one physical reference, which is so absolutely ridiculous, makes the
entire document suspect. It would be easier to believe that things fell
upwards in the face of massive evidence to the contrary.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 498       Thu Apr 02, 1992
M.RUNGU                      at 06:56 EST
 
  To D.FRIEDMAN14 (209)

So, Mr. Friedman, you agree that the Allied forces did not have "clean hands
where atrocities were concerned".  THANKYOU. Pursuant to this, I have a couple
of questions for you -

1.  Since the Allies are now admitted by you to have committed atrocities,
then WHY were not trials similar to the Nuremburg (and other) Tribunals held
in which American and British and French military personnel were in the dock
and punished for their crimes?  Or Soviets for that matter?  At Nuremberg they
tried to pin the Katyn massacres (15,000 Polish officers murdered) on the
Germans and their western counterparts were so embarrassed at the obvious
shame of it all that they forbid any further mention of Katyn.  A crime is a
crime.  Individual German soldiers and officials were shot or hung for
individual crimes.  Why not the "good guys" for the commission of mirror-image
crimes?

2.  Why can't these atrocities committed by the western (and eastern!) allies,
and the victims of these atrocities, be admitted as part and parcel of "the
holocaust"?

3.  Why do you think it is, or can you explain why it is, that our
institutions of learning and our mass media have so carefully avoided
mentioning allied war crimes, while shouting almost non-stop about German
crimes (and alleged crimes).  The bombings of Belgrade and Warsaw are
mentioned luridly, but Hamburg and Dresden are invariably left out.  The
(unsubstantiated) tale of "six million gassed Jews" is repeated over and over
and over and over, but the 5-6,000,000 German civilians who perished at war's
end is almost NEVER mentioned.  ALL of these events are part and parcel of the
World War II holocaust, wouldn't you agree?  So why don't our schools and
media instruct and report accordingly?

Once again, the question pops up: WHOSE holocaust?

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 499       Thu Apr 02, 1992
M.RUNGU                      at 06:56 EST
 
  To POOH.BAH (215)

Again, I am confused.  The tone of your message to Mr. Raven in which you ask
him "where did you get that list - was it from Mark Weber?" implies that you
despise any information or data deriving from Mr. Weber.  Yet in Message 154
you said that you agreed with the Canadian court's decision to accept Mr.
Weber as an expert on the holocaust, in the Zundel trial.  In the one message
you express your respect for Mr. Weber's expertise, and in the other message
you so obviously sneer at that expertise.

Everybody should go back and read Message 215 and examine the tone used; then
go further back to Message 154 and check out your statement on Mr. Weber as an
expert on the holocaust.  I would like to know just what exactly is going on
here.

I think you owe it to everybody who has been so closely following this
discussion, to be absolutely honest with us all on issues like this.  Perhaps
an investigation should be set in motion to see if there is somebody out there
posing as POOH.BAH and falsely using your name to post these utterly
contradictory statements.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 500       Thu Apr 02, 1992
M.RUNGU                      at 06:57 EST
 
  To POOH.BAH (222)

Yad Vashem "does not discriminate based upon religion"?  Do they discriminate
based upon any other criteria?  You have clearly said that the Yad Vashem will
accept ALL researchers interested in learning more about the holocaust.  Can
Mark Weber go there?  Would he be welcomed and given every courtesy?  After
all, the Canadian court has accepted him as an expert and you said yourself
that you agreed with that decision.  Therefore, surely, he could do some
research there? Yes?  No?  Or how about Professor Faurisson?  He has written
and researched extensively on the holocaust too.  Yes?  No?  You DID say that
"any researcher is welcome there and can evaluate the materials".

Fred Leuchter has done research too.  Can he go?  I know that David Irving has
ALREADY been to Yad Vashem.  But, since his visit, he has expressed doubts
about the holocaust and questioned certain aspects of it.  Would he be welcome
for a return visit?

If your answer is "NO" to any of this, then a retraction would be in order,
and also an admission that perhaps the Yad Vashem is not as objective and non-
agenda-serving as you would like us to believe.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 501       Thu Apr 02, 1992
M.RUNGU                      at 06:57 EST
 
  To POOH.BAH (228)

Another backwards double-sideways flip-flop-flip has just been performed! 
Such intellectual gymnastics are truly mind-boggling. Are the "human
lampshades", "human soap" and "mass gassings at Dachau" FACT or FICTION,
POOH.BAH?  Please, please will you say so either way, and clearly and
unequivocally so that nobody will be confused anymore on these issues.

Did or did not the Nazis take Jews and make them into "soap" and/or
"lampshades"?  And were or were not human beings "gassed" at the Dachau
concentration camp, or any OTHER concentration camp on German soil?  Are the
accounts and stories and tales and survivors' and eyewitnesses' statements
alleging this kind of stuff FICTIONAL or FACTUAL?  I think you said "yes" to
my question of "were there gassings on German soil", but maybe my eyes
deceived me.

I don't want some waffly thing like "not fictional within specific limits". 
We need clarity on this, not some statement that can be wriggled out of
afterwards when things get too hot.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 502       Thu Apr 02, 1992
M.RUNGU                      at 06:57 EST
 
  To POOH.BAH (229)

I am glad that revisionism is not a "dirty word" with you after all. Now I
hope that we aren't going to see messages down the line in which it is re-
transformed into a "dirty word" again.  I am also glad that you are in favor
of revisionism as an historical process.  So what exactly are you saying then?
Are you saying that the holocaust must not admit any kind of revisionism, but
all other historical areas CAN admit revisionist research?  Or are you saying
that revisionist research can only be defined as such by the so-called
"holocaust lobby"?

It would be kind of like saying, "I am in favor of truth, but I get to define
what truth IS."

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 504       Thu Apr 02, 1992
D.BERKOWITZ                  at 07:33 EST
 
>Berkowitz then goes on into an assertion that the non-Jewish world >engages
in collective blame against Jews, and asserts  that Boesky
 >and Milken's "Jewish origins would become part of  their crime."
 >Nowhere in any newspaper, magazine, TV, or radio account did I see
 >a word linking any charges against these two  men to their Jewish
 >origins.

>Well, that's not paranoia, is it?


I wrote:

 > I shuddered when Boesky and Milken were indicted. Though I never
 >met either of these men, I did know that their Jewish origins
 >would become part of their crime.

Unlike Schulman, I did not resort to a collectivist argument as he is wont to
do. I did not assert that the non-Jewish world
 collectively engages in collective blame against the Jews, I did
 say that to some Boesky's and Milken's Jewish origins would become
 part of the crime. We have evidence of such a tendency right here
 on this board. Raven attacked Kaganovich, a thoroughly evil man,
 as the Jew Kaganovich. Kaganovich's ethnic origin had nothing to
 do with his crimes, but he is referenced as the Jew. And yes sadly,
 the ethnic origins of Boesky and Milken were widely disseminated, and the
information used by the anti-semites for additional fodder.
 This is not paranoia, it is recognition of grim reality. Mr Schulman
apparently denies that anti-semitism exists. Sad.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 505       Thu Apr 02, 1992
D.FRIEDMAN14                 at 08:08 EST
 
GRAFFITI: I am trying to figure out why you deleted my post, yet allowed 454
SOFTSERV, the rebuttal, to remain.

463 G.Raven: "There were no systematic German programs of genocide."

Ah, finally you've answered the question as to whether you believe there was
such a thing!

498 M.RUNGU:

1.)  There is no comparison between relatively isolated instances of Allied
crimes, and the Germans' consistent policy of butchery.

2.)  The "Holocaust" refers to a very specific event in history:  the German
genocide.  The issue of war dead -- on both sides, including Americans,
Britons, Soviets, etc. -- is a separate issue.

3.)  Because, in the heat of war, terrible things happen.  Probably, no state
has ever fought a war without committing crimes.  But the Germans' demonic
behavior shattered all precedents for evil!  Thus, the special attention.

I am alarmed and disappointed by your selective attention to my questions,
M.RUNGU.  I therefore restate the key question, which you neglect. HOW DID
YOU, A SELF-PROCLAIMED BABE IN THE WOODS, ACQUIRE SUCH A COMMAND OF
REVISIONISM?

D.T. Friedman
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 506       Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 08:37 EST
 
 462 Raven:

  > The Germans not only had spark-ignition engines, they also had busses that
  > ran largely on carbon monoxide (that is, there was a CO generator mounted
  > to the back of the bus to create the CO needed to run the bus). Either of
  > these vehicles would have been MUCH better for CO exterminations, yet no
  > one has ever claimed that the Germans used these.

 You are in error, Raven. Diesel engines were used for the gas chambers at the
 camps that employed CO as the killing agents but it was gasoline engines
 primarily that were used by the gas vans and, therefore, at Kulmhof
 (Chelmno).

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 507       Thu Apr 02, 1992
TERMY                        at 08:38 EST
 
 In reply to:  Message 463  G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]

 -> Because there were no systematic German programs of genocide...

 In my Message 250: 

 Today I can confirm that our objective, to solve the Jewish problem 
 for Lithuania, has been achieved by EK 3.  In Lithuania there are no 
 more Jews, apart from Jewish workers and their families. [total of 
 34,500]...I also intended to kill these Jewish workers plus their 
 families but came up against strong protests on the part of the civil 
 administration (the Reichskommissar) and the Wehrmacht and 
 instructions were issued that these Jews and their families were not 
 to be executed. 

 Message 343: 

 5.  Furthermore, it was proposed to sterilize all those Jewesses who 
 are still fertile so that the Jewish problem would finally be solved 
 with the present generation. 

 Message 346: 

 1.  The accused shall not be punished because of the actions against 
 the Jews as such.  THE JEWS HAVE TO BE EXTERMINATED AND NONE OF THE 
 JEWS THAT WERE KILLED IS ANY GREAT LOSS. Although the accused should 
 have recognized that THE EXTERMINATION OF THE JEWS WAS THE DUTY OF 
 KOMMANDOS WHICH HAVE BEEN SET UP ESPECIALLY FOR THIS PURPOSE, he 
 should be excused for considering himself to have the authority to 
 take part in the extermination of Jewry himself. [emphasis mine] 

 Message 403: 

 The aim of Einsatzkommando 2 from the beginning was a radical solution 
 of the Jewish problem through the execution of all Jews. 

 Message 404: 

 ...It should be obvious that one cannot solve the Polish problem by 
 liquidating the poles in the same way as the Jews. 

 Message 405: 

 On the other hand, in accordance with basic orders, the  cleansing 
 operation of the Security Police had the goal of the most  
 comprehensive elimination possible of the Jews. Extensive executions  
 were thus carried out by special units in the cities and the plains. 

 NOTE:  ALL of the above come from German wartime documents.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 508       Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 08:38 EST
 
 465 Raven:

  > Whoa! Lemme see if I got this right. Pressac refers to several 
  > sources. None of them has the "right" number. So he creates a 
  > "divisor" that ... when applied to these "wrong" numbers ... makes 
  > "right" numbers? Who supplied these divisors? Why doesn't he simply 
  > quote one source that DOES have the "right" numbers and then stick 
  > with it? And if he does come up with one source with the "right" 
  > numbers, how does he know it is right and the others wrong? And if 
  > the other figures are demonstrably wrong (based on another, better, 
  > source), then why apply a divisor to them to make them "right"?

 Before you made this statement, you quoted from my message #215...OUT OF
 CONTEXT. Now, let's put it into context.

  >> Anyone who today claims that they know exactly how many were cremated to
  >> the precise number is the one who stands to lose credibility. It can be
  >> said that from X to Y were cremated but it cannot be said with any
  >> certainty that Z were cremated. Now, if you had read the book, you would
  >> realize that Pressac quoted a number of official sources that claimed
  >> different numbers. Therefore, because these numbers flucuated, so must
  >> the divisor.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 509       Thu Apr 02, 1992
TERMY                        at 08:39 EST
 
 Message 473  G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]

 -> I disagree. Leuchter was looking for the presence of something. To 
 -> establish what it looks like when you find that something, he needed 
 -> to take a sample from a known exposed surface. Had he not done this, 
 -> ALL his samples would have come back with no trace of cyanide 
 -> compounds. This would not have changed the results much, but it would 
 -> have been virtually impossible for anyone but an expert to judge the 
 -> results on their own. By including a sample of a known contaminated 
 -> surface, Leuchter provided a basis for comparison.

 You misunderstood what I said.  Again, Leuchter's test was invalid, 
 for he took his control sample from an area that was suspected to be 
 contaminated, that is, the Block 3 delousing chamber.  Proper 
 scientific method calls for the taking of a control sample which is 
 not suspected or known to be contaminated with the contaminant being 
 tested for.  This sample is then used to establish a baseline of 
 contamination, i.e., the naturally occurring level of the contaminant 
 being tested for.  THEN, one takes sample from areas suspected or 
 known to be contaminated, and tests them for the amount of 
 contamination. The results are then compared to the control sample 
 (which has established the naturally occurring level of 
 contamination). 

 I presented a scenario concerning radioactive contaminations and 
 Leuchter's sampling method.  In order that you may refresh your 
 memory, the scenario is in message #242. 

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 510       Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 08:39 EST
 
 466 Raven:

  > Your reading of my posts is apparently no better than your readings 
  > of the German documents. When I brought up the Duerrfeld reference, 
  > it was in parentheses, as were other of my comments on the excerpts 
  > from Pressac.

 Apparently you are unfamiliar with the standard convention, then, of putting
 your own comments in brackets []. This is used throughout the board here and
 is used in most publications to designate editor's comments (as opposed to
 the author's own parenthetical comments).

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 511       Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 08:41 EST
 
 466 Raven:

  > Auschwitz lies just above the 50th parallel, or roughly as close to 
  > the North Pole as Winnipeg, Canada. In the summer, it may reach 25.7 
  > degrees (78.3 F), but unless everything is at that temperature or 
  > above, HCN will condense. This means that for most of the year (and 
  > probably much of the day, even in the summer) the "gas chambers" 
  > would have had to be heated. Are there any heaters in the "gas 
  > chambers"? Answer: No.


  From the diary of SS-Dr Kremer

  31 August 1942
  Tropical climate, 38 degrees in the shade, dust and countless flies!
  Food in the officers' mess excellent. This evening we had e.g. pickled
  duck's liver for 0.40 RM, plus stuffed tomatoes, tomato salad, etc.
  Water is contaminated, so we drink soda water, which is provided free of
  charge (Mattoni). First inoculation against typhus feber. Photographs
  for camp pass.

  3 September 1942
  For the first time came down with the diarrhoea with vomiting and
  colic-type attacks of pain which have hit everyone here in the camp. It
  cannot be the water as I have not drunk a drop, nor can it be the bread,
  as those who have only eaten white bread (special diets) have also come
  down with it. Most probably the reason is the unhealthy continental and
  very dry tropical climate with its dust and masses of vermin (flies).

  14 September 1942
  For the second time had the Auschwitz illness. Temperature of 37.8.
  Today had the third and last injection against typhus fever.

  ------------------

 Gee, it seems as though, once again, you are in error.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 512       Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 08:42 EST
 
 468 Raven:

  > No, I don't. But although that may be what you saw, that is not what 
  > occurred. Perhaps you'd better look at it again from an objective 
  > point of view. I called Mr. Leuchter to verify that his handling of 
  > the samples was correct. Not only did he assure me that it was, he 
  > further stated that 1) if it had not been correct his testimony would 
  > not have been accepted at the Zuendel trial, and 2) he received 
  > comments from other engineers that he went overboard in the amount of 
  > care he took in handling the samples.

 It sounds as though you have NOT seen the video and are depending solely upon
 the word of the man who used a sample from a de-lousing chamber as his
 "control." Watch the video. The collection method was as I described it -
 baggies not immediately labelled, some samples into his shirt pocket, etc.

 BTW, next time you talk to Leuchter, ask him to name just one engineer who
 believes he "went overboard in the amount of care he took in handling the
 samples."

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 513       Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 08:42 EST
 
 470 Raven:

  > Ahh, so when these "scholarly circles" disagree with each other, I 
  > should just ignore the discrepancies and take the Holocaust story on 
  > faith? This does make things easier ... especially since Hilberg now 
  > says "no Fuehrer order", as he used to. I guess what you are saying 
  > is that the key to studying the Holocaust story is to first believe 
  > in it wholeheartedly, and then discard anything that does not support 
  > that blind faith.

 Here you go again with you "no debate means it didn't happen"/"debate means
 it didn't happen" line of reasoning. It didn't work before and it won't work
 now.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 514       Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 08:43 EST
 
 470 Raven:

  >> I'm just wondering, however, why you did not include the fact that 
  >> Missouri has executed no one during Armontrout's tenure there as 
  >> warden? You'll find that on page 353 of Lenski's book.
  .
  > You should complain to someone; you received a damaged copy of 
  > Lenski's book. Let me show you what you are missing:
  ---
  > "... Though Missouri has executed no one during Armontrout's tenure, 
  > he has witnessed two gassings in other states, and helped with one.*"
  .
  > "* At three minutes past midnight on January 6, 1989, Bill Armontrout 
  > presided over his first execution, and Missouri's first since 1965. 
  > It was accomplished, however, by means of a lethal injection."

 You missed the point, Raven. Next time I won't be so subtle. Armontrout
 describes on page 354 the Missouri gas chamber and its operations. He
 includes in this description such things as the guards vacating their
 watchtower positions when the gas is vented. However, Armontrout has never
 been at the Missouri prison when the gas chamber was used.

 BTW, thank you for bringing up the footnote. Leuchter testified (in his
 futile attempt to qualify as an expert witness) that he had designed the new
 gas chamber at Missouri. That was in the 1988 Zuendel trial and yet, in 1989
 (one year later), the execution in Missouri was performed by lethal
 injection. Hmmm.....

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 515       Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 08:43 EST
 
 472 Raven:

  > Correction: it has been variously reported that there was a "gas 
  > chamber" at Dachau that was never used, but I could make a similar 
  > statement about the spare bedroom in my house. Your statement about a 
  > "gas chamber" at Dachau is therefore misleading.

 Oh, I didn't realize that your spare bedroom had "17 phony shower heads"
 which is what your buddy Leuchter found at the Dachau gas chamber.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 516       Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 08:44 EST
 
 473 Raven:

  > I disagree. Leuchter was looking for the presence of something. To 
  > establish what it looks like when you find that something, he needed 
  > to take a sample from a known exposed surface. Had he not done this, 
  > ALL his samples would have come back with no trace of cyanide 
  > compounds. This would not have changed the results much, but it would 
  > have been virtually impossible for anyone but an expert to judge the 
  > results on their own. By including a sample of a known contaminated 
  > surface, Leuchter provided a basis for comparison.

 You once again misunderstand, Raven. There is no disagreement that samples
 from the de-lousing chamber should have been collected. The problem is that
 these are not "control" samples as Leuchter maintains. Termy was correct in
 his assessment of what is needed for control samples.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 517       Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 08:44 EST
 
 476 Raven:

  > I'll ask it before and I'll ask it again: what proof would be 
  > considered adequate to establish that something did NOT happen? Once 
  > you figure out the answer to this question, you will understand why 
  > the burden of proof is on the exterminationists, not the 
  > revisionists.

 How about a reasonable explanation as to why the evidence of the mass
 extermination program (which employs word such as "liquidation," "executed,"
 etc.) does NOT indicate such an extermination program.

 So far, you have failed to address the documentation that has been presented.
 That would be a good start, wouldn't it?

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 518       Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 08:45 EST
 
 476 Raven:

  > I have described in some detail the characteristics of the carbon copy of
  > the typescript copy of this alleged report. In return, I asked for nothing
  > more than a description from you of the document you claim to have
  > "reviewed". 

 It is a carbon copy of the original (as I have previously stated). It can be
 found in the document center in Berlin. The carbon copy I reviewed has none
 of the errors that you have previously mentioned (which I found amazing since
 you cited no source for those errors and, yet, you have admitted to not
 knowing German....how did you do that?).

 What further description would you like?

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 519       Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 08:45 EST
 
 481 Raven:

  > It seems that once again your sources have let you down. From the 
  > DuPont manual, "Hydrogen Cyanide: Storage and Handling," we find 
  > this:

 This quotation is not relevant to the discussion. When discussing a
 particular event that occurred at a particular time, the relevant documents
 are the contemporary ones from which I quoted. Those instructions do not
 include the washing of skin and, therefore, that wouldn't have been done or
 believed to have been necessary during the Holocaust.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 520       Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 08:46 EST
 
 482 Raven:

  > Uhh, gladly. Check Pressac, page 25. Rablin, a prisoner employed in 
  > disinfecting with Zyklon B, proves just how dangerous this gas was to 
  > use. Rablin, only slightly exposed to the gas, was hospitalized and 
  > took two months to recover. It is paradoxical that the Germans tried 
  > to cure of gas poisoning a man whom, the story goes, they should have 
  > killed with precisely that gas.

 Here is an interesting technique of the Holocaust Deniers. They attempt to
 discredit "eyewitness" testimony when it is inconvenient for them but accept
 it when they think it might suit their purposes. However, even in this case,
 this eyewitness account does not state what Raven has led us to believe it
 does.

 "Once I was slightly gassed because the mask I was wearing was not fully gas-
 tight. I felt nothing at the time but two hours afterward I had a bad
 headache, a pain in the meninges and a burning pain in the lungs. At first I
 did not go to the KB [hospital] but went out of the block into the birch
 alley to breath deeply while doing knee bends. The headache went away fairly
 quickly, but when I coughed a little blood came up. Doctor Wasilewski
 diagnosed inflammation and dehydration of the throat. After being
 hospitalized, I was cured in two month...."

 The diagnosis was NOT gas poisoning. There is no evidence that Rablin even
 told the doctor what caused the situation....or if indeed the gas did cause
 this particular condition.

 It should also be mentioned that Rablin was working with Zyklon-B in the de-
 lousing chamber where the concentration of the HCN is greater increased over
 that of the gas chambers for humans.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 521       Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 08:47 EST
 
 483 Raven:

  > Ah, but you are not telling the whole story, are you? It is true that 
  > the Court did not admit Leuchter as an expert witness across the 
  > board, but they did admit him for some things, didn't they? They must 
  > have, because he testified --- mustn't he have been an expert 
  > witness?

 No, he didn't need to be qualified as an expert witness to testify. After
 all, he did make a trip to Auschwitz and, like anyone who has previously done
 so, can indeed testify as to what he saw and did there. In fact, that is
 exactly what the Court ruled on page 9030:

 "He [Leuchter] can give evidence in the witness box as to what he did within
 the proper question and answer process"

 Then on page 9052:

 COURT: He hasn't any expertise.

 And later on that same page:

 MR. PEARSON [prosecutor]: Now, how someone who purports to be an
 expert....[interrupted by the Judge]

 COURT: Well, I'm not permitting that, I'm not permitting that.

 So, Leuchter was allowed to testify as to what he saw and did but was not
 permitted to make an "expert opinion."

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 522       Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 08:47 EST
 
 483 Raven:

  > By the way, you state that the court transcript is primary evidence, 
  > and is thus better than my secondary evidence. However, my evidence 
  > comes from Fred Leuchter himself ... a true primary source. This 
  > makes your transcript a secondary source. By your own statement, you 
  > have not consulted the best possible source.

 This is really funny! Thank you for giving me such a good laugh!

 Leuchter was an "eyewitness" to the proceedings which were transcribed word
 for word. Yet you somehow now want us to discard that transcription and
 prefer to base your conclusions on the MEMORY of Leuchter?

 Cut it out....my sides are hurting!!!!

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 523       Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 08:48 EST
 
 486 Raven:

  > The walls of the Missouri gas chamber are (were) steel with a sealing coat
  > of paint over it (modern gas chambers use epoxy).

 It's true that the Auschwitz gas chambers were not steel but they were
 painted. It cannot be determined, however, exactly WHEN they were painted.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 524       Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 08:49 EST
 
 489 Raven:

  > I'll go you one better and also explain why it doesn't make barracks 
  > disinfection impossible. When Zyklon B is used to disinfect clothing 
  > and barracks, the time allotted for the procedure is many hours. The 
  > actual gassing can last several hours, and then the airing-out 
  > process can last 24 hours or more, depending on temperature, etc. The 
  > comparatively long disinfection time allows the gas to disperse 
  > fully, so there is less chance of pockets of gas that can cause 
  > problems. Then, the comparatively long airing-out process reduces the 
  > possibility of accidents because the flow rate is so low. Of course, 
  > even after extended airing out, it is still necessary to move things 
  > around (and beat mattresses, etc.) to ensure that all the Zyklon B 
  > has vented off.

 Please cite your sources for this. I think I should warn you, however, that
 you have already used one source to "prove" something and that source
 contradicts the above.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 525       Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 08:49 EST
 
 489 Raven:

  > By contrast, the stories about the homicidal gassings almost all say 
  > that the people are herded in, the gas is introduced into the room, 
  > fifteen minutes later the screaming stops, the doors to the "gas 
  > chamber" are thrown open, and the bodies dragged out, sometimes by 
  > workers who are smoking and eating, and have no protective clothing 
  > or respirators!

 You forgot one very important step in your review of most accounts - the
 ventilation system was turned on! That should be placed in the above between
 "the screaming stops" and "the doors to the 'gas chamber' are thrown open."

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 526       Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 08:50 EST
 
 490 Raven:

  > To Pooh.bah (regarding 382) ---
  >> 169 Raven: Please read CAT 15 TOP 7 MSG 297-302 for the answers to 
  >> your questions.
  .
  > Why is the world did you respond to my questions in TOPic 7? Is it 
  > because you know I don't visit TOPic 7, so you needn't fear rebuttal? 
  > If you have something to say to me, say it here. I must say, it 
  > certainly seems odd that when I ask you why you are dodging the 
  > question, you post your answer somewhere remote from the discussion!

 First, _I_ didn't respond to you in TOPic 7. However, those messages which
 were written by others, do answer your question and I see no reason to
 transfer them here when it is so easy for you to read them there.

 Second, I have no way of knowing which TOPics you do and do not read.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 527       Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 08:50 EST
 
 491 Rungu:

  > So now you are telling us that you "didn't realize the holocaust deniers
  > [sic] were on trial here"?  It seems to me that certain people have taken
  > it upon themselves to act as judge/jury/executioner of those who have
  > questioned the holocaust.

 BTW, Rungu, before you can use the "[sic]" you must have quoted the person
 exactly without making any changes. You have not done that so your use of
 "[sic]" becomes comical instead of informing.

 Now, you claim that the Holocaust Deniers ARE on trial here. I see no
 executioners and the only judgements I see being made are those that are made
 in the course of any controversial discussion.

  > You have to admit that you have some of us confused.  Attack after attack
  > is made upon Leuchter, Weber, Faurisson.  Their credentials and
  > professional qualifications are jeered at and rejected.  Their findings
  > are arrogantly dismissed. They are labeled and libeled and smeared.  And
  > then we're told that they're "not on trial".  Incredible.  Are there TWO
  > POOH.BAHs here, doing different things, or is there only one whose left
  > and right hands are performing different and opposite tasks?

 Everyone here has seen me repeatedly request you to cite just a single
 example where I have attacked Leuchter, Weber or Faurisson; where I have
 jeered at and rejected their credentials; where I have arrogantly dismissed
 them; where I have labeled and libeled and smeared them. The fact that you
 continue to make these unsubstantiated claims without citing the messages is
 destroying the little shred of credibility that remains for you.

 Cite the messages or admit that you are in error. Remember "Keine Antwort ist
 auch eine Antwort." Therefore, if you do not answer with citations, I will
 have to accept that as an answer and your admission that no citations are
 possible. At that time, I will be free to repeatedly point out your
 prevarication.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 528       Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 08:51 EST
 
 491 Rungu:

  > You then went on to say that you agreed with the Canadian court decision
  > to accept Mark Weber as an expert on the holocaust.  Again, I am confused.
  > So you are finally respecting Mr. Weber's expertise in this area of
  > history?  And if so, and that does seem to be the case if you agree as you
  > said you agree, with the court decision, then how does this jive with your
  > outrageous mud-slinging at the Institute for Historical Review?

 First, you need to cite where I have exercised "outrageous mud-slinging at
 the" IHR. You have not done so up til now and, if you do not do so, I will
 have to conclude that your silence is your admission of error and will have
 to, in the future, repeatedly point out your prevarication whenever it
 occurs.

 Now, there is a logical fallacy called "guilt by association." It is also a
 logical fallacy, though, to "redeem by association."

 As I have pointed out before, even though I respect Weber's expertise, I do
 not agree with his conclusions.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 529       Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 08:52 EST
 
 492 Rungu:

  > You "own, have read and analyzed virtually every book they [the IHR] have
  > published or distributed that denies the holocaust in some manner or
  > other"?  And you have "read more of the IHR material than anyone
  > participating here"? I find that extremely hard to believe.

  > Why don't you help us all out and present us with a bibliography, showing
  > author/title/publisher of all these books published or offered by the
  >Institute that you are so expert on. 

 Well, let's see, so far even you have acknowledged that I must have Smith's
 book because of my quotations from it. I must also know Staeglich's book
 since I was able to immediately spot Raven's attempt at plagiarism from it.
 I must have the Leuchter Report and Ingrid Weckert's book since I've quoted
 from both of them. And, let us not forget the Lenski book on Zuendel's trial.
 Yes, put that on the list - it must be put on the list.

 That should give you a good start....you will have to discover the rest in
 the same manner that these have come out - through discussion. I'm not in the
 habit of advertising for the IHR and their publications like you are.
 Therefore, I will not post the entire list of my Holocaust Denial books nor
 will I cite author/title/publisher.


 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 530       Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 08:52 EST
 
 494 Rungu:

  >  To A.K.QUINN (195)

  > So you "saw" the "gas chambers" at Dachau?  I am astounded.  Your
  > statement flies directly in the face of the fact that no holocaust
  > historian or writer on the holocaust, agrees with you and in fact DENIES
  > such allegations. ... Even POOH.BAH has admitted that nobody was gassed at
  > Dachau.  Are you saying POOH.BAH is wrong?

 Excuse me but you are mixing apples and oranges here. Kevin stated that he
 saw two gas chambers. I agreed that there were two gas chambers at Dachau. I
 have stated that no gassings of humans took place at Dachau but, since Kevin
 never claimed that there had been gassings there, there is no disagreement.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 531       Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 08:54 EST
 
 497 Hans-Peter:

  > The man is talking through his hat. Corpses, fresh or otherwise, don't
  > burn well at all. They are mostly water and their basic design hasn't
  > changed since the 1940s.

 Here you are comparing apples and oranges. You speak of the water content of
 normal human bodies and make the false assumption that this is relevant. It
 isn't.

 I'm sure that everyone here has seen photographs of the surviving inmates and
 the corpses. I'm equally sure that everyone here has seen photographs of the
 starving children in the Third World. Does anyone notice a vast difference
 between the two? The latter have extended bellies and the former do not!

 The lack of extended bellies is a clear indication of dehydration. Therefore,
 these corpses did NOT have the same water content as those under normal
 conditions.

 Second, it is required by law throughout the US that every body must be
 embalmed....even if that body is going to be cremated. Needless to say, the
 bodies to which F-G was observing had not be embalmed which does alter the
 burning process.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 532       Thu Apr 02, 1992
GRAFFITI [Ric Helton]        at 16:27 EST
 
[8 messages deleted.  Please refrain from name-calling and personal attacks,
and please be careful to support your claims against one group or the other
with some factual citation or evidence, given the delicate nature of the
subject matter. Thanks. -Ric/PF*NPC]
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 534       Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 18:15 EST
 
 499 Rungu:

  > Again, I am confused.  The tone of your message to Mr. Raven in which you
  > ask him "where did you get that list - was it from Mark Weber?" implies
  > that you despise any information or data deriving from Mr. Weber.

 Your inference is incorrect. I was asking for the source of the list. I
 suggested that Mark Weber might have prepared it. If he had, he should get
 credit for it. I thought that Mark Weber might have been involved in the
 preparation of the list for the reason that I respect him enough to believe
 that he would have read the Pressac book. Since Raven had already admitted
 that he had never read the book, it didn't seem reasonable that he would have
 prepared the list.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 535       Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 18:16 EST
 
 500 Rungu:

  > Yad Vashem "does not discriminate based upon religion"?  Do they
  > discriminate based upon any other criteria?  You have clearly said that
  > the Yad Vashem will accept ALL researchers interested in learning more
  > about the holocaust.  Can Mark Weber go there?  Would he be welcomed and
  > given every courtesy?

 No, they do not discriminate based upon any criteria other than one cannot
 frivolously just want to examine a document for the heck of it. The
 individual must have a reason and the usual reason is research into some
 aspect of the Holocaust.

 Yes, Mark Weber can go there and he will be afforded the same welcome and
 courtesy that I receive. That means that he will have to present his research
 proposal and a list of the documents that he wishes to review. The archives
 staff (as he well knows) is not there to search the documents - they are
 there to retrieve documents. Mark Weber will not be allowed into the vault
 where documents are kept....but then only the archivists are permitted there.
 There are requirements as to the proper procedure for handling the original
 documents, etc. (which is true of any archives) and these will have to be
 followed by anyone doing research there.

 As far as the "welcome" part of the question, many of the archivists and the
 staff there are Sabras. Therefore, he will receive the typical Sabra welcome.

 The same is true of Faurisson, Leuchter, Staeglich, Weckert (who has also
 been to Yad Vashem) or any of the other Holocaust Deniers.

 Now, let me ask you a question: If I wanted to go to an annual IHR
 convention, would I be allowed to attend? Would I be welcomed and extended
 every courtesy?

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 536       Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 18:17 EST
 
 501 Rungu:

  > Another backwards double-sideways flip-flop-flip has just been performed!
  > Such intellectual gymnastics are truly mind-boggling. Are the "human
  > lampshades", "human soap" and "mass gassings at Dachau" FACT or FICTION,
  > POOH.BAH?  Please, please will you say so either way, and clearly and
  > unequivocally so that nobody will be confused anymore on these issues.

 Since I have repeatedly asked you to cite a single message in which I
 declared the lampshades and soap to be "myths" or "fiction" and you have not
 done so, all participants here are left knowning that you have been unable to
 do so. In fact, I have never stated my opinions on the lampshades and soap
 even though you have repeatedly and falsely claimed that I have.

 As I declared when I u/l'ed the documentation, I will leave it to everyone to
 review it and arrive at their own conclusions. I have my own conclusions
 based upon that documentation but, as I have already stated, based upon
 requests that I received in e-mail, I will refrain from discussing the matter
 in public. Those requests were based upon sensitivities.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 537       Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 18:18 EST
 
 501 Rungu:

  > I think you said "yes" to my question of "were there gassings on German
  > soil", but maybe my eyes deceived me.

 Yes, there were gassings on German soil. This has been clearly demonstrated
 through the documentation of the euthanasia program. No, there were no
 "extermination camps" on German soil.

 These are not mutually exclusive.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 538       Thu Apr 02, 1992
GRAFFITI [Ric Helton]        at 18:32 EST
 
NOTE: I have directed further discussion spurred by Neil's messages to the
Religion & Ethics RT on GEnie page 390.  The Public Forum RT is not equiped to
handle delicate matters of a religious nature, and the thread does not
directly address the Holocaust.  PLEASE direct fiurther discussion of this
matter to that RT. Thank you.  -Ric/PF*NPC
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 540       Thu Apr 02, 1992
GRAFFITI [Ric Helton]        at 19:02 EST
 
I apologize for not keeping a much tighter reign on this topic, and for
allowing off-topic threads to go on.  I realize that we could be here forever
haggling over what to delete and what not to delete.....

Therefore, I am blowing the whistle here.  =TWEEEEET=

FROM NOW ON, all messages that are off-topic or irrelevant to the primary
discussion of the Holocaust, or do not tie whatever point is being made back
to that discussion if it isn't clear, or can even remotely be perceived as a
personal attack against any other forum member, or make anti-Semitic
statements, or make broad, sweeping statements about conspiracies without
substantiating evidence, cites or proofs, WILL BE DELETED.  I am being forced
to forego the leeway I use in most all of my other topics and Categories
because of the nature of this discussion, the delicacy and sensitiveness of
the subject matter, and the anger with which I am confronted in trying to
moderate this topic.

I have been called every name in the book in private email, and I do not feel
that the Public Forum is equipped to handle much of the tangential discussions
that revolve around the Holocaust, Jewishness, and age-old religious conflict.
I must insist that those sorts of discussions be moved to the appropriate
RoundTable:  Religion & Ethics, on GEnie page 390.

I NEED YOUR HELP!  I want to work with you and do the right thing in this
topic.  We are balancing open speech issues with offensiveness and bigotry,
and it is very difficult.  I want to be perfectly even-handed and fair. 
Please, before you flame me all over the RT, drop me an email.  I don't have a
"hidden agenda" and I don't administer the forum from a biased perspective.  I
am here to facilitate YOUR discussion -- this is my JOB. If you want to add
your perspective to what is happening in private email to me, please do so! 
(Also be aware that I am not online 24 hours a day, but I do try to check in
at least twice a day.)

Now, please, let's get on with discussing the topic as stated: the facts
surrounding the Holocaust.

-Ric/PF*NPC
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 541       Thu Apr 02, 1992
GRAFFITI [Ric Helton]        at 19:44 EST
 
[8 messages deleted for being off topic or personal attacks.]
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 542       Thu Apr 02, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 19:48 EST
 
Ric: I would like you to take note of the fact that Rungu has repeatedly
attributed remarks to me which I have not made. After repeatedly requesting
that he either admit his error or cite a single message in which I have made
such statements, he has done neither....AND he has continued to post these
unsubstantiated accussations. I, therefore, request a modicum of leniency in
that, if Rungu persists beyond this point (and I have warned him in repeated
messages to this very point), I will be pointing out that he is lying.

This is a situation which has been going on for a week. It is not new and I
feel that I have given Rungu ample opportunity and warning.

Is this not sufficient or must I allow myself to be slandered, have my words
twisted and words put in my mouth repeatedly? BTW, this is one of the
propaganda tools that was used by Goebbels and he discusses it extensively in
his diary.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 543       Thu Apr 02, 1992
GRAFFITI [Ric Helton]        at 20:01 EST
 
I am going to try to enforce that every claim made be substantiated with some
reference or other. If any forum member continually quotes you out of context,
such that you feel such quoting can be equated with defamation, please send me
email and explain the situation. I will delete the offending messages. 
Really, this has GOT to stop somewhere, and the benefit of the doubt WRT free
speech that I have been holding so high is being sorely tested.

IF YOU QUOTE SOMEONE, PLEASE MAKE SURE YOUR QUOTE IS IN CONTEXT. This topic is
of necessity being held to a higher standard that any other in the RoundTable.

-Ric/PF*NPC
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 544       Thu Apr 02, 1992
H.P.SKALIKS [Hans-Peter]     at 20:21 EST
 
POOH.BAH...message 511

Upper Silesia a tropical environment???? You can't be serious POOH.BAH! North
Dakota gets hot in the summer too, but it is hardly tropical. We sometimes get
temperatures in the mid thirties (Celsius) in Toronto, but I would hardly
describe the environment as tropical.

Take a physical atlas, find Upper Silesia, and it will give you the rainfall
and average yearly temperature data. You will find that it does not differ
that much from Leipzig, Dresden, Breslau or numerous other locations which are
only a few hundred kilometres away, and which are definitely not tropical.

I have no idea what Dr. Kremer was drinking when he wrote that, but if ever
there was a whiskey-inspired notion, that has to be it.

message 531

The only thing that would burn of itself on a corpse is the fat content,
layered on the surface. As you point out, these had none or little fat. The
statement talks about "fresh" corpses. This implies to me that the person had
been alive shortly before. If they were alive, even if dehydrated, they must
still have been at least 85% to 90% water since otherwise life would be
impossible. If they were dehydrated to the same extent that an Egyptian mummy
is dehydrated then they might burn passably well, but then one could hardly
talk about a "fresh" corpse.


 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 545       Thu Apr 02, 1992
D.BERKOWITZ                  at 20:41 EST
 
Splendid.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 546       Thu Apr 02, 1992
M.RUNGU                      at 22:21 EST
 
  To POOH.BAH (230)

Everybody pay attention now...  I hereby admit my error when I stated that
POOH used Rudolf Hoess (Commandant of Auschwitz) as a source to back up the
extermination thesis.  I went back to all the messages in both Topics and the
person that tried to use this fraudulent and false document was D.KAUFMANN1 in
Message no. 94 of Topic 4.  He gave the German text and then provided us with
a translation in the hope that by reading the text we would be convinced of an
extermination policy.  I did a text search under 'Hoess' and also 'Hoss' (the
latter spelling sometimes used in error for the correct former) and unless
Hoess is referred to under some other spelling by POOH, she did not try to use
him as a source. My humble apologies to POOH, who is let off the hook THIS
time. I mistook D.KAUFMANN1's reference for POOH's.  I am not perfect as
certain others pretend to be, and, unlike those certain others, do try to
admit to my mistakes when they occur.

But I STILL have yet to see POOH.BAH come right out and join with me in
denouncing and condemning this spurious abuse of history in which Hoess' name
is proferred as "proof" of an extermination thesis. Can POOH.BAH not denounce
the various exterminationist writers who have used Hoess in this manner?  I
would also like to see POOH's comments on WHY the fraudulent and contradictory
Hoess statements were forced by his interrogators; it would seem that a
deliberate effort was being made at war's end to manufacture fraudulent
statements and "confessions" in order to create an "extermination" myth.  In
our study of the holocaust, one of the most important areas that revisionist
historians have opened up is this phenomenon of deliberate exterminationist
falsification of history.  Once the spurious documents have been laid to rest,
we still need to have a close look at the fabricators of such rubbish and
their motivations and purposes.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 547       Thu Apr 02, 1992
M.RUNGU                      at 22:21 EST
 
  To POOH.BAH (232)

Thankyou for your statement that you "have much respect for Mark Weber" of the
Institute for Historical Review, even though you do not agree with him.  That
sounds fair enough.  His credentials and qualifications and background are
very much in order.  He now is a full-time staffer of the Institute and the
Associate Editor of it's JOURNAL OF HISTORICAL REVIEW as well as editor of
it's NEWSLETTER. I think that his involvement with the IHR is therefore much
more than an "association" (implying some very tenuous link).  It is precisely
because individuals of the calibre of Mr. Weber actually make up the
Institute's staff and Advisory Board membership, that famous authors like
David Irving and John Toland have worked closely with it and presented papers
and spoken at it's gatherings.  In an earlier message, I detailed his training
and paper trail for those who rightly or wrongly regard such as essential.

I think that in future references to him, you should consider being a little
more careful in how you express yourself, because the clear impression is
generated of sneers and jeers whenever his name crops up.

I think the smears and mud-slinging at the Institute should stop. To express
disagreement with it's findings and published material is acceptable, but the
constant "neo-Nazi" and "anti-semitic" slurs are out of place.  If I had a
scanner I would scan in the long list of Ph.D.s and Professors who make up
it's Editorial Advisory Committee from all over the world.  I doubt if any of
them would be surprised at the "neo-nazi" and "anti-semite" slurs against
them, since they know that such mud-slinging is par for the course when one
questions ANYTHING about the holocaust, but they would ALL deny such slanders.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 548       Thu Apr 02, 1992
M.RUNGU                      at 22:22 EST
 
  To POOH.BAH (233)

You said "both you and Raven have made this statement that the holocaust is
the one single area of history which is the most rife with historical error
but thus far neither of you have offered anything to substantiate this."  Are
you serious?  What do you think our discussion of the Hoess and Gerstein
memoirs/confessions constitutes?  You admit yourself that these documents are
unreliable and full of errors.  These very documents have been, and still
sometimes are (see D.KAUFMANN1's Message 94 of the archived Topic 4 as an
example), proffered as "evidence" for the extermination thesis.  We still see
eyewitness' and survivors' claims about human soap, lampshades, and gassings
in camps on German soil (by way of another example, check our Mr. Quinn's
messages about the "gas chambers" at Dachau).  These are the "rife historical
errors" that holocaust revisionists have, in their (unpopular) research,
uncovered and exposed for the world to see as historical fabrications.  We
have been offering these juicy tidbits for all to see in message after
message.

It is true that other historical events and other historical periods have
misconceptions, errors, fraud and falsifications.  Historical revisionists
have looked at and are still looking at these events and the claims made about
them in order to "bring history into accord with facts".  But what makes the
holocaust unique in this regard is that it has become virtually a dogma, and
to criticise or look too closely at this dogma means the "punishment" that
Professor Faurisson of France has suffered, or Dr. Wilhelm Staglich of
Germany, or Mr. Zundel of Canada, or the Institute for Historical Review in
our country (the fire bombing, the frivolous court actions against it). This
makes it all the more important to resist the intimidation and terrorism
directed against holocaust revisionism and to get the job done (and it is
BEING done by courageous men and women in spite of the attacks, the bombings,
the being dragged into court, etc.).  BTW, I am STILL awaiting a clear
condemnation from you of those who perpetrate such attacks and intimidation
against revisionists.  In fact, you haven't even admitted that such things
even happen.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 549       Thu Apr 02, 1992
M.RUNGU                      at 22:22 EST
 
  To POOH.BAH (235)

I will say again that there is much on this subject, the holocaust, that I
still need to read and learn.  And my commitment is to see ALL sides to it,
not JUST the holocaust dogma's version, i.e. the establishment version shoved
on us by the "court historians" who seem to be more interested in their
careers than they are in historial truth.  I have read Anne Frank's Diary, and
recently learned that it was written by somebody else AFTER the war.  I have
read 'Commandant of Auschwitz' "by" Hoess, but later learned that it was
extracted from and/or fed to him by his captors, first the British
interrogators at Hamburg, and then the Communist Polish jailors afterwards. 
This is precisely the kind of fabrication of history that has me interested in
what the holocaust revisionists have to say.  There is a great deal of
revisionist material that I have not read yet, but so far, I can say with
absolute confidence that the revisionist approach is vastly more scholarly and
objective than anything I have yet seen in any library's holocaust section.

I have never presented myself as a "scholar" who NEVER makes mistakes. Do you
know of somebody who pretends to such omniscience, POOH.BAH?

But I have been reading both sides to it, and when I see lies and myths and
contradictions, I find it useful to point them out to our readers, in this
discussion.  That is not the same as pretending to "expert" status.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 550       Thu Apr 02, 1992
M.RUNGU                      at 22:23 EST
 
  To POOH.BAH (239)

Your "total agreement" with Hans-Peter on the issue of Allied war crimes is
refreshing.  Now let's move along to the next step on this.

Can you not join me in condemning the fact that GERMAN war-criminals (or
sometimes or often alleged war-criminals) have been put to death for the
commission or alleged commission of war crimes and atrocities, but no war
crimes trials on the Nuremberg (or any other) model have been held to punish
ALLIED war criminals?

And how about the media?  Wouldn't you agree with me that the mass media has
been extremely irresponsible in that it has rarely, if ever, made mention, in
any form, of the commission of ALLIED war crimes, but, rather, in it's
presentation of World War II crimes, dwells almost exclusively on GERMAN
commissions?

The point is that World War II was the holocaust.  Jewish people have co-opted
the entire event and present it almost entirely from their own perspective, as
a result of which "the holocaust" is now defined and accepted as something
that only happened to Jewish people.  I think this is wrong and immoral, and
if your approach to this is honest and straightforward, you will join me in
condemning and rejecting it.  We are waiting.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 553       Thu Apr 02, 1992
TERMY                        at 22:44 EST
 
My apologies Mr. Raven:  as so often happens, I got you and Mr/Ms Rungu
confused.  It was Mr/Ms Rungu who asserted "Berlin alone had some 50,000 Jews
living there [at war's end]..." in Message # 699, topic 4.

Mr/Ms Rungu, please supply a source for this assertion.

Mr. Raven, do you wish to comment upon the number of Jews living in Berlin at
war's end?



                                        Termy
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 555       Thu Apr 02, 1992
TERMY                        at 22:53 EST
 
FOR THE RECORD:  All the documents I've entered have been hand-typed and
contain information which refutes or aids in refuting assertions made by
either Mr. Raven, Mr/Ms Rungu, or both.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 556       Thu Apr 02, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri]            at 22:54 EST
 
 M.RUNGU, you still haven't answered numerous questions.
 Keine Antwort ist auch eine Antwort.

   Message 328 From: POOH.BAH

  >Rungu: In reviewing the messages from TOPic 4, I noticed that there
  >were a number of questions that you have left unanswered.  Perhaps
  >you can take a moment now and answer them for me.
  >
  >FROM #163:
  >
  >148 Rungu: What, in your opinion, should be the credentials for an
  >"expert" in gas chambers?
  >
  >FROM #247:
  >
  >> Secondly, the Einsatsgruppen operations in and of themselves have always
  >> been suspicious.  Orders may have been issued, but they were not always
  >> carried out, in spite of the reports coming in from the actual units in
  >> the field supposedly carrying out those orders.  Often it was found that
  >> the planned operations were impractical or even downright impossible, and
  >> even sometimes FALSE reports were sent in with fabricated figures of
  >> fatalities amongst the targets.
  >
  >Excuse me, do you know this from personal experience or could you
  >cite some sources for these strange claims?
  >
  >FROM #611:
  >
  >Actually, because of the contradictory news reports, Ernst Zundel
  >(someone from your camp, you know) called Irving to inquire about
  >his (Irving's) position.  Zundel isn't even sure where Irving stands
  >on the issue.  He stated that Irving "sort of" gave an explanation.
  >Have you spoken to Irving and are, perhaps, better able to give us
  >some insight into this?
  >
  >FROM #714:
  >
  >> But this is typical as regards "exterminationist" presententation
  >> of documents.  First, they will claim that there are "tons" of
  >> such documents; but when pressed to produce them, they only come
  >> up with a relatively small number, ALL of which are highly
  >> questionable or irrelevant; when this emerges, they will then
  >> shift gears and try to claim that the Germans "destroyed
  >> everything" to hide their "crimes", or sometimes even talk about
  >> the Germans using some kind of special code language, etc.  etc.
  >
  >Please make your case against anyone who is posting here that the
  >above is based in reality.
  >
  >FROM #715:
  >
  >I like the way you are now qualifying the gassings....are you
  >implying that there were gassings but not in "mass"?  If so, please
  >define "mass" for us.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 559       Thu Apr 02, 1992
C.FINK4 [Carl]               at 23:09 EST
 
  Raven, your 462 - I haven't done any inorganic chemistry in a while, but can
you document your claim that the Germans used CO as a fuel for engines?  This
strikes me as insane - the energy release is very low, and making CO wastes
lots of energy for no reason.

  Are you perhaps referring to a process involving the reaction of carbon and
water to produce hydrogen and CO?

  Raven, your 483:

>> By the way, you state that the court transcript is primary
 >>evidence, and is thus better than my secondary evidence. However,
 >>my evidence comes from Fred Leuchter himself ... a true primary
 >>source. This makes your transcript a secondary source. By your
 >>own statement, you have not consulted the best possible source.

  Come on, Raven - there are cases, like this one, in which MORE THAN ONE
primary source exists.  Actually, by your own rules, Leuchter's testimony is
"eyewitness testimony" and thus suspect.

  Raven, your 491:  admitting that Weber is an expert is not admitting that he
is correct.  Linus Pauling is perhaps the greatest living expert in
biochemistry - and is wrong about vitamin C, according to almost every other
biochemist.  Einstein was wrong about the expanding universe, as he
acknowledged later.

  I won't see your answer for a while - I'm offline until Monday.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 560       Thu Apr 02, 1992
C.FINK4 [Carl]               at 23:22 EST
 
>>I have read Anne Frank's Diary, [sic] and recently learned that it
 >>was written by somebody else AFTER the war.

  No it wasn't, RUNGU, although that accusation was made.  As I recall, her
father did edit her diaries a bit, but she did in fact write them.

                                Carl Fink
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 561       Fri Apr 03, 1992
J.WEISBERGE1 [Jon W.]        at 00:02 EST
 
Pooh.Bah 387:

It was my impression that Shoah deniers (after some consideration, I agree
that describing these folks as "revisionists" does violence to the meaning of
that term as applied to the study of history) are no less marginal in Germany
than elsewhere.  The significance of that is, of course, that the Germans
presumably would have the most to gain if the deniers were correct, and yet
they seem to have repudiated the "no Holocaust" hoax as much as anyone else.

Rungu 392:

It is indeed curious that while you are willing to engage in endless demands
for documentation of each and every statement about the extermination of Jews,
you are content to merely ASSERT that "My statements about the Soviet
NKVD...are valid, and I stand by them."

This is not the first time you have taken such a sharply differentiated
approach to issues; some time ago, I wrote to you the following:

"In #689 you suggest that we cannot properly evaluate historical
 events until "at least 50 years" have passed, and suggest that this
 applies to the case of the Holocaust.  You do not produce evidence
 to prove that it didn't happen, but demand that evidence be produced
 that it did.  On the other hand, in the case of contemporaneous
 events elsewhere - most notably in the Ukraine, Lithuania, Latvia,
 etc., you reverse this position, make sweeping assertions about the
 "massacre of tens of millions," and then demand that anyone who
 disagrees produce proof that it didn't happen.

Please explain the methodological discrepancy."

I invite you again to justify the flexibility of your standards of proof.

Pooh.Bah 440:

An interesting historical side note:  Walter Rauff escaped from the Allies and
made his way, ultimately, to Chile, where he became a "security advisor" to
the military dictator Agosto Pinochet.

Ric 538:

Excuse me, but I am utterly at a loss to understand the basis on which you
remove messages or allow them to stand.  Raven & Rungu have repeatedly invoked
Israel, Zionism, Jews and their beliefs and actions in their posts.  In #394,
for example, Rungu states his belief that Jews cause antisemitism, and that
they were responsible for their own murder.  Is that on-topic, while responses
to such statements are off-topic?

In my opinion, you need to exercise either very, very firm control over such
matters (by, for instance, deleting all messages which refer to Israel, as
well as all messages which refer to Jews in any context other than the
"debate" over the facts of their murder), or allow people to respond as they
see fit, within the no-personal- attacks rules.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 564       Fri Apr 03, 1992
TERMY                        at 00:46 EST
 
  
 From the situation report of Gebietskommissar Gerhard
 Erren, 25 January 1942

 The town of Slonim is a haphazard jumble of a few good stone buildings,
 quite a few serviceable wooden houses and a good many dilapidated log
 shacks ripe for demolition. There are no uniformly well-maintained
 enclosed quarters which would be suitable as areas for Germans to live
 in. One-third of the town has been completely destroyed. As a result of
 this and the heavy influx of refugees, when I arrived Slonim was
 severely overpopulated and the housing situation in some places
 catastrophic. The Judenaktion on 13 November alleviated the situation
 perceptibly. It resulted in our being able to clear a street completely
 and set up homes and offices for Germans there. Work to clean this
 street and the surrounding quarter in continuing in preparation for the
 future SS base. Operating on the premise that my colleagues need the
 highest standard of overall living conditinos in order to maintain peak
 performance I saw to it from day one that each of our men not only has
 decent accommodation and enough to eat but that his whole lifestyle
 embodies German culture and the prestige appropriate to it. Our
 accommodation is such that members of all the German services, including
 Sonderfuehrer and police, eat together but in separate dining-rooms.
 Standards of conduct are adhered to, with the result that even people
 with little upbringing soon learn manners which command the respect of
 the local serving staff towards the German master race.

 Upon my arrival there were about 25,000 Jews in the Slonim area, 16,000
 in the actual town itself, making up over two-thirds of the total
 population of the town. It was not possible to set up a ghetto as
 neither barbed wire nor guard manpower was available. I thus immediately
 began preparations for a large-scale action. First of all property was
 expropriated and all the German offical buildings, including the
 Wehrmacht quarters, were equipped with the furniture and equipment that
 had been made available. . . . Any articles which could not be used for
 Germans were handed over to the town for sale to the local population.
 Proceeds from their sale were sent to the finance department. The Jews
 were then registered accurately according to number, age and profession
 and all craftsmen and workers with qualifications were singled out and
 given passes and separate accommodation to distinguish them from other
 Jews. The action carried out by the SD on 13 November rid me of
 unnecessary mouths to feed. The some 7,000 Jews now present in the town
 of Slonim have all been allocated jobs. They are working willingly
 because of the constant fear of death. Early next year they will be
 rigorously checked and sorted for a further reduction.

 The plains were extensively cleansed for a time by the Wehrmacht.
 Unfortunately, however, this only took place in villages with fewer than
 1,000 inhabitants. In the Rayon towns [the lowest administrative
 districts in the USSR - Ed.] all Jews will be eradicated with the
 exception of all but the most essential craftsmen and skilled workers,
 after auxiliary work for the east-west movement has been carried out.

 Since the Wehrmacht is no longer prepared to carry out actions on the
 plains I shall concentrate all the Jews of the area into two or three
 Rayon towns. They will work in closed columns only, in order to stamp
 out once and for all illicit trading and support for the partisans made
 to pass their skills on to intelligent apprentices in my craft colleges,
 so that Jews will finally be dispensable in the skilled craft and trade
 sector and can be eliminated.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 565       Fri Apr 03, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri]            at 01:07 EST
 
The next 5 posts are transcribed from "Shoah", Franz Suchomel, SS
Unterscharfuehrer interviewed by Claude Lanzmann

Lanzmann: Are you ready?

Suchomel: Yes. We can begin.

Lanzmann: How's your heart? Is everything in order?

Suchomel: Oh, my heart - for the moment, it's all right. If I have any pain
I'll tell you. We'll have to break off.

Lanzmann: Of course. But your health, in general, is. . .

Suchomel: The weather today suits me fine. The barometric pressure is high;
that's good for me.

Lanzmann: You look to be in good shape, anyway. Let 's begin with Treblinka I
believe you got there in August? Was it August 20 or 24?

Suchomel: The eighteenth.

Lanzmann: The eighteenth?

Suchomel: I don't know exactly. Around August 20. I arrived there with seven
other men.

Lanzmann: From Berlin?

Suchomel: From Berlin.

Lanzmann: From Lublin?

Suchomel: From Berlin to Warsaw, from Warsaw to Lublin, from Lublin back to
Warsaw and from Warsaw to Treblinka.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 566       Fri Apr 03, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri]            at 01:08 EST
 
(Suchomel interview, continued)

Lanzmann: What was Treblinka like then?

Suchomel: Treblinka then was operating at full capacity.

Lanzmann: Full capacity?

Suchomel: Full capacity! The Warsaw ghetto was being emptied then. Three
trains arrived in two days, each with three, four, five thousand people
aboard, all from Warsaw. But at the same time, other trains came in from
Kielce and other places. So three trains arrived, and since the offensive
against Stalingrad was in full swing, the trainloads of Jews were left on a
station siding. What's more, the cars were French, made of steel. So that
while five thousand Jews arrived in Treblinka, three thousand were dead in the
cars. They had slashed their wrists, or just died. The ones we unloaded were
half dead and half mad. In the other trains from Kielce and elsewhere, at
least half were dead. We stacked them here, here, here and here. Thousands of
people piled one on top of another on the ramp. Stacked like wood. In
addition, other Jews, still alive, waited there for two days: the small gas
chambers could no longer handle the load. They functioned day and night in
that period.

Lanzmann: Can you please describe, very precisely, your first impression of
Treblinka? Very precisely. lt's very important.

Suchomel: My first impression of Treblinka, and that of some of the other men,
was catastrophic. For we had not been told how and what ... that people were
being killed there. They hadn't told us.

Lanzmann: You didn't know?

Suchomel: No!

Lanzmann: Incredible!

Suchomel: But true. I didn't want to go. That was proved at my trial. I was
told: "Mr. Suchomel, there are big workshops there for tailors and shoemakers,
and you'll be guarding them."

Lanzmann: But you knew it was a camp?

Suchomel: Yes. We were told: "The Fuehrer ordered a resettlement program. It's
an order from the Fuehrer."  Understand?

Lanzmann: Resettlement program.

Suchomel: Resettlement program. No one ever spoke of killing.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 567       Fri Apr 03, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri]            at 01:09 EST
 
(Suchomel interview, continued)

Lanzmann: I understand Mr. Suchomel, we're not discussing you, only Treblinka.
You are a very important eyewitness, and you can explain what Treblinka was.

Suchomel: But don't use my name.

Lanzmann: No, I promised. All right, you've arrived at Treblinka.

Suchomel: So Stadie, the sarge, showed us the camp from end to end. Just as we
went by, they were opening the gas-chamber doors, and people fell out like
potatoes. Naturally, that horrified and appalled us. We went back and sat down
on our suitcases and cried like old women.

Each day one hundred Jews were chosen to drag the corpses to the mass graves.
In the evening the Ukrainians drove those Jews into the gas chambers or shot
them. Every day!

It was in the hottest days of August. The ground undulated like waves because
of the gas.

Lanzmann: From the bodies?

Suchomel: Bear in mind, the graves were maybe eighteen, twenty feet deep, all
crammed with bodies! A thin layer of sand, and the heat. You see? It was a
hell up there.

Lanzmann: You saw that?

Suchomel: Yes, just once, the first day. We puked and wept.

Lanzmann: You wept?
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 568       Fri Apr 03, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri]            at 01:10 EST
 
(Suchomel interview, continued)

Suchomel: We wept too, yes. The smell was infernal because gas was constantly
escaping. It stank horribly for miles around. You could smell it everywhere.
It depended on the wind. The stink was carried on the wind. Understand?

More people kept coming, always more, whom we hadn't the facilities to kill.
The brass was in a rush to clean out the Warsaw ghetto. The gas chambers
couldn't handle the load. The small gas chambers. The Jews had to wait their
turn for a day, two days, three days. They foresaw what was coming. They
foresaw it. They may not have been certain, but many knew. There were Jewish
women who slashed their daughters' wrists at night, then cut their own. Others
poisoned themselves.

They heard the engine feeding the gas chamber. A tank engine was used in that
gas chamber. At Treblinka the only gas used was engine exhaust. Zyklon gas-
that was Auschwitz. Because of the delay, Eberl, the camp commandant, phoned
Lublin and said: "We can't go on this way. I can't do it any longer. We have
to break off." Overnight, Wirth arrived. He inspected everything and then
left. He returned with people from Belzec, experts. Wirth arranged to suspend
the trains. The corpses lying there were cleared away. That was the period of
the old gas chambers. Because there were so many dead that couldn't be gotten
rid of, the bodies piled up around the gas chambers and stayed there for days.
Under this pile of bodies was a cesspool three inches deep, full of blood,
worms and shit. No one wanted to clean it out. The Jews preferred to be shot
rather than work there.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 569       Fri Apr 03, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri]            at 01:10 EST
 
(Suchomel interview, continued)

Lanzmann: Preferred to be shot?

Suchomel: It was awful. Burying their own people, seeing it all. The dead
flesh came off in their hands.  So Wirth went there himself with a few Germans
and had long belts rigged up that were wrapped around the dead torsos to pull
them.

Lanzmann: Who did that?

Suchomel: SS men and Jews.

Lanzmann: Jews too?

Suchomel: Jews too!

Lanzmann: What did the Germans do?

Suchomel: They forced the Jews to . . .

Lanzmann: They beat them?

Suchomel: . . . or they themselves helped with the cleanup.

Lanzmann: Which Germans did that?

Suchomel: Some of our guards who were assigned up there.

Lanzmann: The Germans themselves?

Suchomel: They had to.

Lanzmann: They were in command!

Suchomel: They were in command, but they were also commanded.

Lanzmann: 1 think the Jews did it.

Suchomel: In that case, the Germans had to lend a hand.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 570       Fri Apr 03, 1992
A.K.QUINN                    at 03:18 EST
 
 For the record: I am not an apologist for Jews as such, but I like to think I
have an obligation to tell the truth. So--
   I never saw a gas chamber in use. Naturally. I saw chambers fitted out as I
described. Nazis were not known for building things for fun. I interviewed
many non-Jews at Dachau, including some who had no use for Jews, but had been
at other camps, including Auschwitz, and what they said tends to corroborate
the Holocaust thesis.

  I served as Religious Affairs Officer in Military Government for Bavaria
after leaving Dachau. I had personal dealings with many German ecclesiastics,
including several Bishops (Cardinal Faulhaber was one.) I met German priests
and brothers who had served in the army and who had first-hand knowledge of
the extermination program.
  I met only one who said the extermination policy was a figment, or Allied
propaganda. Everyone else agreed with what people like Von Galen and Faulhaber
said: that they knew all the Jews were doomed, until we came, at least.

  Was I propagandized/indoctrinated about the Holocaust when I was ordered to
join the Dachau MG team? Pete's sake, I had just come down from Belgium where
I survived the Bulge and the Malmedy slaughter by the SS. I knew what a
Konzentrationslager was, that's all. Period. 
   I am not easily fooled by propaganda or uncorroborated testimony. I
believed some inmates but not all. And when we brought in townspeople from the
twon of dachau to bury the dead, I saw them leave shaken abd stunned. The SS
at Dachau? Damn few; they ran, leaving ordinary Wehrmacht soldaten to face the
music. You should have heard those guys...

 Now, I have been accused (not here) of antisemitism because I oppose the
treatment of Palestinians in Israel: too bad, there are Jews who agree with
me. But what any Jew may do now, even if I oppose him, has nothing to do with
what I saw and did. (I found out later that the reason I was sent to Dachau
was that I could speak Latin, and we knew there were a lot of priests there,
not because I would be pro or con Jews, Judaism, or anything else. When Polish
and German inmates told me of the wholesale extermination of Jews, I figured
they had no reason to lie.) =KevinQ=
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 571       Fri Apr 03, 1992
E.BROWN42 [scaramouche]      at 03:21 EST
 
Rungu

RE: 546

Pooh-Bah has stated several times that the Hoess confession should not  be
relied upon as a primary source document because of the possibility of its
extraction by force.

Scaramouche
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 572       Fri Apr 03, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 03:31 EST
 
 To Termy (regarding 402, et al) ---
 Relative to your wholesale posting of documents, I would ask that you 
 take it easy on yourself and post only enough to make a point. You 
 may, of course, do as you wish.
 ---
 Because it would take months (if not years) to go through everything 
 you have posted, I will take one statistic of Hilberg's that you have 
 quoted and examine it, with the hopes that I can show the difficulty 
 of accurately determining war-time demographics, and the fallicy of 
 accepting even Hilberg's figures.
 .
 According to Hilberg, there were 270,000 deaths of Jews in Roumania, 
 based on the 1937 borders. According to Hilberg's first edition of 
 "The Destruction of the European Jews," in 1939 Roumania had 800,000 
 Jews. In June 1940, 300,000 Jews were included in land ceded to 
 Russia. Land ceded to Transylvania contained a further 150,000 Jews. 
 Hilberg goes on to state, "The remaining Jews in Old Roumania 
 consequently numbered about 350,000." So far, so good.
 .
 Hilberg later repeats his 800,000 figure (number of Jews in Roumania 
 in 1939), and adds that in 1945 (presumably after the war) there were 
 430,000 Jews in Roumania, although this figure is for Jews within the 
 post-war boundaries. According to my encyclopedia, after WWII, 
 Roumania's loss of Bessarabia and northern Bukovina to the Soviet 
 Union, and her loss of southern Dobruja to Bulgaria, were made 
 permanent (she regained northern Transylvania). Thus, the post-war 
 borders were much smaller, and did NOT include lands that had 
 originally contained a large number of Jews.
 .
 Later, Hilberg states again that in 1945 and 1946, the number of 
 survivors and those who returned to Roumania numbered 430,000, that 
 in various migrations between 1945 and 1952 some 185,000 Jews left 
 Roumania, and that in 1957 there remained 245,000 Jews in Roumania.
 .
 However, in a recent article in (I believe) the Canadian Jewish News 
 (which I do not have in front of me, but which was read to me over 
 the phone a couple weeks ago by Ernst Zuendel in Toronto, Canada), 
 after the war the Roumanians allowed Jews to emigrate if they would 
 pay a tax of some kind. The article states that this tax amounted to 
 a considerable sum, but that in spite of everything 300,000 Jews took 
 advantage of the offer.
 ---
 Now we run into a problem. There is no mention in Hilberg of 300,000 
 Jews taking part in any such action. Furthermore, even discounting 
 the population rise between 1952 and 1957, there is no way to 
 subtract 300,000 from 430,000 and come up with 245,000.
 .
 Worse, if Roumania got back Transylvania (which had 150,000 Jews at 
 one time), she could have had some 450,000 Jews, which is very close 
 to the number 430,000 given by Hilberg. However, to have 245,000 Jews 
 left in Roumania in 1957 but at the same time have 270,000 murdered 
 by the Germans (and Roumanians, but let's not get into THAT), you 
 need to have started with 515,000 Jews in Old Roumania, which Hilberg 
 does not claim.
 ---
 With this single example, we can see that demographics figures for 
 Jews of this period in this area are fraught with inconsistencies.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 573       Fri Apr 03, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 03:32 EST
 
 To Termy (regarding 408, et al) ---
 In reference to your posting of the diary of Dr. Johann-Paul Kremer, 
 who was stationed at Auschwitz.
 ---
 Paul Rassinier has stated, "You will see how, at first sight, it is 
 troubling, and then how, if you analyze it with a little care, it 
 constitutes a terrible fiasco for the Exterminationists. I prize the 
 Kremer case very much. It shows how fragile are the proofs that 
 people offer to us, to what extent they allow themselves to be easily 
 deceived by appearances, how much the official historians have 
 misused the texts and how it is necessary to work if you wish, in the 
 study of texts, to distinguish between the true and the false, 
 between the real meaning and the misinterpretation."
 .
 Rather than subject you to Rassinier's blow-by-blow analysis, I will 
 present the high points.
 ---
 First, it is obvious to anyone reading this text that the word 
 "gassing" appears only once, and ONLY in connection with ridding a 
 block of lice (see also Staeglich on this point). Zyklon B this is 
 presented as a disinfectant.
 ---
 Second, although Kremer speaks of attending 14 "special actions," he 
 does not tell us what these are. We may read into these words many 
 things, and in fact we have to because Kremer is not specific.
 ---
 Third, one of the most "damaging" passages is the entry of 2 
 September 1942, in which you have Kremer saying:
 .
 > 3.00 a.m. attended my first Sonderaktion. Dante s Inferno seem to 
 me almost a comedy compared to this. They don t call Auschwitz the 
 extermination camp for nothing!
 .
 However, this is different from the translation given by Georges 
 Wellers, Serge Klarsfeld, and Leon Poliakov. The biggest 
 discrepancies, however, are not between your version and that of 
 these well-known exterminationists, but between any of these versions 
 and the original German document (see NO-3408 in the National 
 Archives), which Rassinier translates as:
 .
 > This morning, at 3 o'clock, I was present OUTSIDE for the first 
 time at a SPECIAL ACTION. Compared to that, Dante's Inferno appearls 
 TO ME ALMOST LIKE a comedy. It is not without reason that Auschwitz 
 is called THE camp of THE ANNIHILATION! (emphasis Rassinier's, 
 showing words omitted or mistranslated by Wellers, Poliakov, and 
 Klarsfeld)
 .
 Where Rassinier goes on for pages describing the meaning of this 
 paragraph, for us it should be sufficient to see that the word 
 "outside" has been omitted from your version. This one single change 
 completely alters the meaning of this passage. Were the "gas 
 chambers" outside? Of course not.
 ---
 Thus, the Kremer diary entries not only do not prove that Auschwitz 
 was an extermination camp, they prove just the opposite.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 574       Fri Apr 03, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 03:32 EST
 
 To AH.STEIN (regarding 426) ---
 >> ... Mel Mermelstein s frivolous legal actions against the 
 Institute for Historical Review
 > Somehow, the court did not agree with your assessment, and ordered 
 the Institute for Historical Misrepresentation to pay up.
 .
 You not only have gratuitously attacked the IHR, you have completely 
 misstated the case and ignored recent developments.
 .
 1) The court took judicial notice of the Holocaust, making it 
 virtually impossible for the underfinanced IHR to present its case.
 2) The IHR settled with Mermelstein to avoid a lengthy and costly 
 court battle. The court did not (and could not) order them to do 
 this.
 3) Mermelstein's latest adventure against the IHR ended 
 ignominiously, as Mermelstein's case did not even last through the 
 first day of the hearings.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 575       Fri Apr 03, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 03:33 EST
 
 To Sheri Pierce (regarding 428) ---
 > Termy, the Kremer entries ... the gross indifference is chilling. I 
 recognize the entry 18 October 1942. That is the entry Faurisson lied 
 about. French scholar George Weller debunked those lies.
 .
 Please post the "lies," but keep in mind that Georges Wellers has 
 mistranslated and misrepresented the Kremer diaries (see my earlier 
 post to Termy), and is hardly an unimpeachable source.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 576       Fri Apr 03, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 03:33 EST
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 443) ---
 I have lost count of how many times you have depended on the 
 Franke-Gricksch Resettlement Action Report ... and yet you still 
 ignore my questions about its authenticity, and you have yet to 
 respond to my challenge to discuss the contents of this report. I can 
 understand that it is vital to your position, but you MUST do more 
 than simply repeat it time and again.
 .
 Now, I must demand: tell us the details of the copy of this document 
 you have said you reviewed (what it looked like, where it is, etc.), 
 so that we can begin discussing the text of the Report.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 581       Fri Apr 03, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 09:44 EST
 
 544 Hans-Peter:

  > Upper Silesia a tropical environment???? You can't be serious POOH.BAH! 
  > North Dakota gets hot in the summer too, but it is hardly tropical. We
  > sometimes get temperatures in the mid thirties (Celsius) in Toronto, but
  > I would hardly describe the environment as tropical.

 What you are talking about is the climate. I've quoted diary enteries that
 speak of the weather. These two words are different. Climate is what one
 expects and weather is what one gets.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 582       Fri Apr 03, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 09:45 EST
 
 544 Hans-Peter:

  > The only thing that would burn of itself on a corpse is the fat content,
  > layered on the surface. As you point out, these had none or little fat.
  > The statement talks about "fresh" corpses. This implies to me that the
  > person had been alive shortly before. If they were alive, even if
  > dehydrated, they must still have been at least 85% to 90% water since
  > otherwise life would be impossible. If they were dehydrated to the same
  > extent that an Egyptian mummy is dehydrated then they might burn passably
  > well, but then one could hardly talk about a "fresh" corpse.

 If you will re-read the document, it is making a comparison statement. The
 comparison is implicitly made between these "fresh corpses" and those which
 are not so fresh.

 The not so fresh corpses would have probably been embalmed (which is done by
 non-flamable materials) and also would probably have been in a casket.
 Therefore, the comparison is probably valid or, bare minimum, until this
 experiment is reproduced, I see no reason to doubt it since there are
 reasonable explanations.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 583       Fri Apr 03, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 09:45 EST
 
 547 Rungu:

  > I think that in future references to him [Mark Weber], you should consider
  > being a little more careful in how you express yourself, because the clear
  > impression is generated of sneers and jeers whenever his name crops up.

 Perhaps, now that you know my position on Mark Weber, you will not
 automatically assume the "sneers and jeers." Since this media does not permit
 you to see body language or hear tone of voice, you might, in the future,
 realize that those "sneers and jeers" of which you have had the "impression"
 in the past were not put there by the author but by the reader.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 584       Fri Apr 03, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 09:46 EST
 
 547 Rungu:

  > I think the smears and mud-slinging at the Institute should stop. To
  > express disagreement with it's findings and published material is
  > acceptable, but the constant "neo-Nazi" and "anti-semitic" slurs are out
  > of place.

 This comment in a message addressed to me carries with it the implication
 that _I_ have referred to the IHR as "anti-Semitic" or "neo-Nazi." Could you
 please review the messages in both the TOPics (if necessary) and correct this
 false implication? Or, if you wish, you may cite a message of mine in which
 I have referred to the IHR in such terms.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 585       Fri Apr 03, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 09:46 EST
 
 548 Rungu:

  > You said "both you and Raven have made this statement that the holocaust
  > is the one single area of history which is the most rife with historical
  > error but thus far neither of you have offered anything to substantiate
  > this."  Are you serious?

 Yes, I am serious. Both you and Raven have made the statement that the
 Holocaust is the ONE single area of history which is the MOST rife with
 historical error. To substantiate this (since it is a comparison statement),
 you have to show how other historical events are LESS rife with error and,
 since you have yet to refute ALL the documents that I have u/l'ed, you must
 also substantiate that the historiography of the Holocaust is rife with
 errors.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 586       Fri Apr 03, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 09:47 EST
 
 548 Rungu:

  > We still see eyewitness' and survivors' claims about human soap,
  > lampshades, and gassings in camps on German soil (by way of another
  > example, check our Mr. Quinn's messages about the "gas chambers" at
  > Dachau).

 As I've pointed out before, Kevin Quinn is correct in his observations of gas
 chambers at Dachau. As far as lampshades and soap, you have offered no
 refutation either here or in e-mail to me regarding the documents that I
 u/l'ed.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 587       Fri Apr 03, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 09:47 EST
 
 548 Rungu:

  > But what makes the holocaust unique in this regard is that it has become
  > virtually a dogma, and to criticise or look too closely at this dogma
  > means the "punishment" that Professor Faurisson of France has suffered, or
  > Dr. Wilhelm Staglich of Germany, or Mr. Zundel of Canada, or the Institute
  > for Historical Review in our country (the fire bombing, the frivolous
  > court actions against it). This makes it all the more important to resist
  > the intimidation and terrorism directed against holocaust revisionism and
  > to get the job done (and it is BEING done by courageous men and women in
  > spite of the attacks, the bombings, the being dragged into court, etc.). 
  > BTW, I am STILL awaiting a clear condemnation from you of those who
  > perpetrate such attacks and intimidation against revisionists.  In fact,
  > you haven't even admitted that such things even happen.

 First, I do condemn the fire bombing of the IHR. It should be noted, however,
 that it has never been proven who the responsible party was. That doesn't
 make my condemnation any less but I certainly didn't want your statement to
 stand with its implication that it was done because of the work the IHR does
 or by those who support the reality of the Holocaust.

 For instance, I could point out that yesterday, there was a radio talk show
 in which Bradley Smith appeared for 50 minutes and Rabbi Marvin Hier from the
 Simon Wiesenthal Center was permitted a 10 minute rebuttal. After the radio
 show, the Simon Wiesenthal Center had a bomb threat. If I left these two
 statements stand, the implication would obviously be that there was a cause
 and effect. However, that cause and effect cannot be proven and, therefore,
 it would be equally false for me to make it (such as your cause and effect
 regarding the IHR fire bombing).

 As far as "frivolous court actions," you wouldn't want to mention the lible
 suit that Carto, the IHR, etc. brought against Mel Mermelstein would you?

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 588       Fri Apr 03, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 09:48 EST
 
 549 Rungu:

  > I have read Anne Frank's Diary, and recently learned that it was written
  > by somebody else AFTER the war.

 This indicates one of the many errors made by the Holocaust Deniers. But,
 what is really funny is the following:

  ------------
 Category 15,  Topic 4
 Message 55        Fri Mar 13, 1992
 M.RUNGU                      at 22:35 EST

 To Mr. Raven,

 As an afterthought, I have another question.  

 I have a book called THE DIARY OF ANNE FRANK.  When I read it, I was very
 moved; Anne Frank wrote about her sufferings before the Germans took her 
 away to Auschwitz and gassed her.  My question is, have you read this book,
 and if, after reading it, how can you question the holocaust?  The DIARY is
 required reading is many or most schools, and really, to me at least, it
 represents the holocaust like no other book can.  I am sure that most of the
 people who have read Anne's diary will agree with me there.

 Your comments?
  ------------

 Now, my disproof of your current claim was also posted in message 61 TOPic 4:


  ------------
 Category 15,  Topic 4
 Message 61        Sat Mar 14, 1992
 POOH.BAH                     at 00:53 EST

 55 M.Rungu: Are you serious, a shill or Greg in "disguise?" I find it very
 interesting that you are only asking questions which exactly match the
 pre-set Holocaust Deniers' dogma.

 If you would like to know all about Anne Frank's diaries and loose sheets, I
 would recommend that you check into the "Critical Edition" of her diary. It
 is fascinating. First there is a group of essays, reports, etc. which include
 the results from the State Science Forensic Laboratory of the Netherlands.
 The SSFL tested the diaries and loose sheets for purposes of authenticating
 them. Their final report was over 250 pages but there is an excellent summary
 in the "Critical Edition."

 I will be more than happy to summarize the results here but, suffice it to
 say, they were able to determine that all the materials used (i.e. paper,
 ink, binding, glue, etc.) were available at the time that Anne was in hiding
 and, it turns out that shortly thereafter, elements which were present in
 these materials at that time were removed. For instance, the ink had a high
 concentration of iron but within five years inks no longer contained iron or
 had very low concentrations.

 The handwriting has been compared to other samples of Anne's writing from
 letters to friends, etc. and it checks out perfectly.

 The "Critical Edition" also contains all the diaries and loose sheets with
 only minor changes. For instance, there are people mentioned in the diaries
 who are still livin today. Some of them refused to grant permission to use
 their names so initials are used instead.

 Even with all of this and the fact that the diaries are fascinating, I have
 to disagree that they tell the story of the Holocaust unlike any other
 source. The diaries are the story of the life of one girl who died of typhus
 quite a while after the last entry in the diary. The Holocaust was the
 systematic destruction of over six million European Jews by the Nazis before
 and during WWII. The diaries mention nothing of that....at best, they give us
 insight into the lives of Jews who were hidden by the Righteous of the
 Nations.
  ------------
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 589       Fri Apr 03, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 09:49 EST
 
 549 Rungu:

  > I have never presented myself as a "scholar" who NEVER makes mistakes. Do
  > you know of somebody who pretends to such omniscience, POOH.BAH?

 No, I know of no person who has made such a statement. I do, however, know of
 a person who had her words twisted by another to mean something other than
 what was said.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 590       Fri Apr 03, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 09:50 EST
 
 550 Rungu:

  > And how about the media?  Wouldn't you agree with me that the mass media
  > has been extremely irresponsible in that it has rarely, if ever, made
  > mention, in any form, of the commission of ALLIED war crimes, but, rather,
  > in it's presentation of World War II crimes, dwells almost exclusively on
  > GERMAN commissions?

 No, I cannot agree with you that the MEDIA has been irresponsible in this
 regard. The media is a business and, as such, must make business decisions to
 maximize profits and minimize losses.

 I would agree, however, that our UNIVERSITIES and other educational
 institutions have been irresponsible in this regard. Fair enough?

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 591       Fri Apr 03, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 09:50 EST
 
 550 Rungu:

  > The point is that World War II was the holocaust.  Jewish people have
  > co-opted the entire event and present it almost entirely from their own
  > perspective, as a result of which "the holocaust" is now defined and
  > accepted as something that only happened to Jewish people.  I think this
  > is wrong and immoral, and if your approach to this is honest and
  > straightforward, you will join me in condemning and rejecting it.  We are
  > waiting.

 Before the 1960s-1970s (I can search out the exact date if you would like),
 the term "holocaust" was never spelled with a capital "H" and the word simply
 meant: "an offering the whole of which is burned; burnt offering" having been
 derived from the Greek.

 It was Elie Wiesel who, in an article, coined the term Holocaust (with a
 capital letter) for the destruction of European Jewry under the Nazis.

 Therefore, the Jewish people have not "co-opted" this term or the event. The
 Holocaust (capital "H") refers to its original meaning. BTW, you might be
 interested to discover that Elie Wiesel has often commented that he regrets
 having used that term because he feels that others now use it as a means of
 insulating themselves from its meaning.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 592       Fri Apr 03, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 09:51 EST
 
 552 Rungu:

  > In conformity with your new censorship policy which you state is
  > "unbiased", I want to protest your tolerance of POOH.BAH's constant
  > attacks and ridicules of G.RAVEN.

 Here you go making an unsubstantiated accusation again. Please cite messages
 which indicate that I have made "constant attacks" and that I "ridicule"
 Raven. I admit that, early on in the discussion (in TOPic 4), I did ridicule
 and mock Raven because of his purposeful ignoring of the meanings of the
 documents that I posted. However, I was warned by the sysops about that and
 I have since refrained. Therefore, unless you can cite messages in which I
 have done so, I must once again ask you to admit your error.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 593       Fri Apr 03, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 09:51 EST
 
 572 Raven:

 Now, you have finally given us some information with which to work. Thank
 you.

  > Hilberg later repeats his 800,000 figure (number of Jews in Roumania 
  > in 1939), and adds that in 1945 (presumably after the war) there were 
  > 430,000 Jews in Roumania, although this figure is for Jews within the 
  > post-war boundaries. According to my encyclopedia, after WWII, 
  > Roumania's loss of Bessarabia and northern Bukovina to the Soviet 
  > Union, and her loss of southern Dobruja to Bulgaria, were made 
  > permanent (she regained northern Transylvania). Thus, the post-war 
  > borders were much smaller, and did NOT include lands that had 
  > originally contained a large number of Jews.

 Let's go through this slowly. 800,000 Jews in pre-war Romania. Lands ceded
 which included 300,000 Jews to Russia and 150,000 Jews in Transylvania. That
 left 350,000 Jews in Romania. Therefore, assuming no deaths, births or
 deportations/migrations, that would mean the post-war boundaries would
 encompass 500,000 Jews which is more than 50% of the original total Jewish
 population for Romania. Yet, you maintain that the post-war borders "did NOT
 include lands that had originally contianed a large number of Jews."

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 594       Fri Apr 03, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 09:52 EST
 
 572 Raven:

 To continue with this same passage:

  > Hilberg later repeats his 800,000 figure (number of Jews in Roumania 
  > in 1939), and adds that in 1945 (presumably after the war) there were 
  > 430,000 Jews in Roumania, although this figure is for Jews within the 
  > post-war boundaries. According to my encyclopedia, after WWII, 
  > Roumania's loss of Bessarabia and northern Bukovina to the Soviet 
  > Union, and her loss of southern Dobruja to Bulgaria, were made 
  > permanent (she regained northern Transylvania). Thus, the post-war 
  > borders were much smaller, and did NOT include lands that had 
  > originally contained a large number of Jews.

 800,000 Jews were in pre-war Romania. Lands ceded which included 300,000 Jews
 to Russia and 150,000 Jews in Transylvania. That left 350,000 Jews in
 Romania. These 350,000 would obviously be considered "Rumanian Jews" but what
 about the rest?

 There were massive deportations, executions, etc. Post-war, there were DP
 camps throughout Europe. Transylvania was re-united with Romania and,
 therefore, the Jews living there would also be considered "Rumanian Jews."
 Many Jews attempted through all the post-war upheaval to escape Europe
 altogether. Romania reorganized their gov't and it was neither fascist nor
 communist immediately after the war. More importantly, though, is that
 Romania was on one of the routes to Palestine.

 Your whole message assumes that once a Rumanian Jew, one didn't necessarily
 remain a Rumanian Jew (i.e. through land ceded to another country) and that
 no one new could BECOME a Rumanian Jew.

 Therefore, the figures you state become meaningless as proof of the fallacy
 of Hilberg's figures.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 595       Fri Apr 03, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 09:53 EST
 
 572 Raven:

  > However, in a recent article in (I believe) the Canadian Jewish News 
  > (which I do not have in front of me, but which was read to me over 
  > the phone a couple weeks ago by Ernst Zuendel in Toronto, Canada), 
  > after the war the Roumanians allowed Jews to emigrate if they would 
  > pay a tax of some kind. The article states that this tax amounted to 
  > a considerable sum, but that in spite of everything 300,000 Jews took 
  > advantage of the offer.

 Once again you are guilty of comparing apples and oranges. You admit that the
 Hilberg data you discuss comes from the first edition of his multi-volume set
 which he began writing in 1948 and was published in the 1950's. You then
 compare this to a "recent article." Better that you compare Hilberg's most
 recent edition (1985) to the recent article.

 If you do so, you will find that for the period 1948-1980, Hilberg DOES
 account for the 300,000. The figure he states is 340,000 who emigrated during
 that time.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 596       Fri Apr 03, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 09:53 EST
 
 572 Raven:

  > Worse, if Roumania got back Transylvania (which had 150,000 Jews at 
  > one time), she could have had some 450,000 Jews, which is very close 
  > to the number 430,000 given by Hilberg. However, to have 245,000 Jews 
  > left in Roumania in 1957 but at the same time have 270,000 murdered 
  > by the Germans (and Roumanians, but let's not get into THAT), you 
  > need to have started with 515,000 Jews in Old Roumania, which Hilberg 
  > does not claim.

 Here you have made a simple math error in the first sentence. 350,000 (the
 number of Jews remaining in Romania after lands were ceded) plus 150,000 (the
 number of Jews in pre-war Transylvania) equal 500,000 and not the 450,000
 figure you mention.

 Now, the 270,000 murdered Rumanian Jews is based upon the original figure of
 800,000 Rumanian Jews (number in Romania pre-war) and not the number from the
 post-war borders. Hilberg clearly states that the countries listed in the
 table in which he states 270,000: "Borders refer to 1937. Converts to
 Christianity are included, and refugees are counted with the countries from
 which they were deported."

 This notation also brings up an interesting point. Converts to Christianity
 were not spared the fate of the rest of European Jewry. However, those who
 had converted before 1939 (the date of the 800,000 census figure) are NOT
 included in that first figure.

 Realizing these facts should clear up any inconsistencies that you feel
 remains. I do agree with you, though, you have shown the difficulty of
 accurately determining war-time demographics.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 597       Fri Apr 03, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 09:54 EST
 
 573 Raven:

  > In reference to your posting of the diary of Dr. Johann-Paul Kremer, 
  > who was stationed at Auschwitz.
  > ---
  > Paul Rassinier has stated:

 Raven, you have seen me state that I have respect for Mark Weber yet disagree
 with his overall conclusions. I've been asked by many WHY I respect Mark
 Weber. One of the reasons I do is because there are some points on which we
 do agree. Our opinion of Paul Rassinier being one of them.

 To quote from Lenski's book on Mark Weber's sworn testimony at the Zuendel
 trial:

 "Christie [Zuendel's attorney] questioned Weber about Paul Rassinier, the
 French revisionist pioneer on whom Harwood relied heavily. Weber regretted
 Rassinier's shortcomings, but emphasized his reliability about subjects of
 which he had first-hand knowledge, such as the Buchenwald and Dora camps. ...
 Weber vigorously challenged the tendency of both Harwood and Rassinier to
 overemphasize the alleged Jewish financial interest in upholding the
 Holocaust story."

 I base my agreement with Weber on my reading of Rassinier's "The Holocaust
 Story" and "The Lies of Ulysses."

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 598       Fri Apr 03, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 09:55 EST
 
 574 Raven:

 It is curious that you have forgotten to mention the IHR suit against
 Mermelstein for lible. That one didn't even last long enough to go to a
 hearing!

 There was only ONE of multiple counts which did not last the first day of the
 hearing. However, the Mermelstein case against the IHR is being appealed and
 the other counts of the suit are waiting until it can all go forward with all
 counts.

 And, would you admit that the IHR now has vastly greater sums at its disposal
 than does Mel Mermelstein who has had to privately finance all of his legal
 proceedings?

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 599       Fri Apr 03, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 09:55 EST
 
 576 Raven:

  > To Pooh.bah (regarding 443) ---
  > I have lost count of how many times you have depended on the 
  > Franke-Gricksch Resettlement Action Report ... and yet you still 
  > ignore my questions about its authenticity, and you have yet to 
  > respond to my challenge to discuss the contents of this report. I can 
  > understand that it is vital to your position, but you MUST do more 
  > than simply repeat it time and again.
  > .
  > Now, I must demand: tell us the details of the copy of this document 
  > you have said you reviewed (what it looked like, where it is, etc.), 
  > so that we can begin discussing the text of the Report.

 Apparently you missed my message that I posted yesterday:

  >476 Raven:

  >> I have described in some detail the characteristics of the carbon copy of
  >> the typescript copy of this alleged report. In return, I asked for
  >> nothing more than a description from you of the document you claim to
  >> have "reviewed". 

 It is a carbon copy of the original (as I have previously stated). It can be
 found in the document center in Berlin. The carbon copy I reviewed has none
 of the errors that you have previously mentioned (which I found amazing since
 you cited no source for those errors and, yet, you have admitted to not
 knowing German....how did you do that?).

 What further description would you like?

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 601       Fri Apr 03, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 18:04 EST
 
 Back in message 699 in TOPic 4, Rungu made the comment that "Berlin alone had
 some 50,000 Jews still living there, free, to the great surprise and
 embarrassment of the holocaust-legend exaggerators.  Hundreds of thousands or
 perhaps millions of Soviet Jews from the western regions of the (former!)
 U.S.S.R. lived and breathed and later emigrated elsewhere, decades AFTER the
 war."

 Many others have demanded to know Rungu's source for these statements solely
 on the certainty that it is false and that certainty is based upon the "fact"
 that the Nazis deported every Jew they could to the ghettos and camps.

 Let's look at Rungu's statements and see what is true and what is false. Were
 50,000 Jews still living in Berlin at the end of the war? No. Were "hundreds
 of thousands or perhaps millions" of Soviet Jews from the western regions of
 the USSR still alive? Well, that is a wee bit of an exaggeration. Do the
 facts embarrass Holocaust historians? Not at all. In fact, without the
 Holocaust historians, we probably wouldn't know about the Jews who did live
 relatively freely in Europe during the Nazi years.

 So, what are the facts? There WERE hundreds of thousand (but not millions) of
 European (not just Soviet) Jews who did live relatively freely in Europe
 during the Nazi years. Actually, 500,000 has been given as a conservative
 estimate of this group. There WERE 28,000 (not 50,000) of these Jews in
 Berlin at the end of the war. There WERE 50,000 (this is probably where Rungu
 made his mistake) of these Jews living in GERMANY (not just Berlin) at the
 end of the war.

 Who were these Jews? These were Jews in mixed marriages, children of mixed
 marriages and "essential" Jews. Although these Jews were not allowed to
 pursue their educations (the children, that is) nor work in the professions,
 they were permitted the same rations and lifestyle as the rest of the non-
 Jewish populations and their property was not "Aryanized." They were not in
 hiding but lived in the open. There were also many cases where a marriage
 going sour was kept together to protect the Jewish spouse. Yet, the Gentile
 spouse is not recognized as one of the Righteous of the Nations.

 What is probably the most interesting is that according to Judaic Law, if the
 mother is Jewish, the child is Jewish. However, for the most part, the
 Mischlinge children who were the best protected were those whose mothers were
 Jewish but their fathers were Gentiles - especially if the child had been
 baptized.

 So, Rungu did make some false statements but the statements weren't nearly as
 false as some here seem to believe. For those who would like to know more
 about this group of Jews, you might consult: _Special Treatment: The Untold
 Story of the Survival of Jews in Hitler's Third Reich_ by Alan Abrams.
 Although this book is in the nature of "eyewitness accounts" (i.e. those who
 were actually beneficiaries of the "special treatment"), it is a good
 introduction to this aspect of the Nazi period.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 602       Fri Apr 03, 1992
GRAFFITI [Ric Helton]        at 18:22 EST
 
[a few personal attacks deleted, several off-topic messages moved to topics 7
and 4.  Please note that topic 4 is now open to discuss side issues that pop
up here that are not directly related to the Holocaust itself. -Ric/PF*NPC]
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 604       Fri Apr 03, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri]            at 20:07 EST
 
Raven 572

>> [Hilberg is discredited because he doesn't cover what was..] in a recent
article in (I believe) the Canadian Jewish News (which I do not have in front
of me, but which was read to me over the phone a couple weeks ago by Ernst
Zuendel in Toronto, Canada),

HA HA HA HA HA.  Did you expect anyone to take such slipshod reporting by you
as a serious impugning of Hilberg?

Raven 573

(Regarding the mental gymnastics you attributed to Rassinier that if "special
actions" attended by Kremer were "outside", one should conclude "the Kremer
diary entries not only do not prove that Auschwitz was an extermination camp,
they prove just the opposite.")

You've demonstrated a complete absense of rational thought or logic. Kremer
said Auschwitz was an extermination camp (or in Rassinier's stilted
translation "the camp of the annihilation".  You're denying the obvious.

Raven 575

>> Please post the "lies," but keep in mind that Georges Wellers has
 mistranslated and misrepresented the Kremer diaries (see my earlier
 post to Termy), and is hardly an unimpeachable source.

Refer to 4 #832, Top 9 #9 or Top 9 #352.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 605       Fri Apr 03, 1992
M.FEINS                      at 20:09 EST
 
 


                   A moment of Silence in the

                        Blessed Memory

                   of the Multi Millions of

                     JEWS, NON-JEWS, GAYS,

                 MENTALLY AND PHYSICALLY INFIRM

             that were indiscriminately slaughtered

            by the depraved animals of Nazi Holocaust

                   and their sick Nazi Masters
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 606       Fri Apr 03, 1992
AH.STEIN                     at 20:41 EST
 
 499  Rungu:

 >Again, I am confused.

 Which company was it that claimed progress was its most important product?
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 607       Fri Apr 03, 1992
AH.STEIN                     at 20:42 EST
 
 500  Rungu:

 >Yad Vashem "does not discriminate based upon religion"?  Do they
 discriminate based upon any other criteria?  You have clearly said that the
 Yad Vashem will accept ALL researchers interested in learning more about
 the holocaust.  Can Mark Weber go there?  Would he be welcomed and given
 every courtesy?

 Obviously, since Weber is not a researcher "interested in learning more
 about the holocaust," but is an anti-semite interested in denying the
 Holocaust, he does not qualify.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 608       Fri Apr 03, 1992
AH.STEIN                     at 20:42 EST
 
 547  Rungu:

 >I think the smears and mud-slinging at the Institute [of Historical
 Misinformation] should stop.

 It is extremely difficult to smear an organization devoted to a complete
 rewrite of history.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 609       Fri Apr 03, 1992
AH.STEIN                     at 20:43 EST
 
 549  Rungu:

 >I have read Anne Frank's Diary, and recently learned that it was written
 by somebody else AFTER the war.

 When you make such an outrageous claim, you might increase your credibility
 if you backed it up.  (I know, that's impossible, because there's nothing
 to back it up.)

 The repetition of an outrageous lie was one of the favorite techniques of
 the Nazi propaganda machine.  It has been resurrected by the spiritual
 descendants of the Nazis, the Holocaust deniers. 
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 610       Fri Apr 03, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri]            at 20:44 EST
 
More of the Lanzmann interview of Franz Suchomel, SS Unterscharfuehrer
(Treblinka)  Next 9 messages

Suchomel: The new gas chambers were built in September 1942.

Lanzmann: Who built them?

Suchomel: Hackenhold and Lambert supervised the Jews who did the work, the
bricklaying at least. Ukrainian carpenters made the doors. The gas-chamber
doors themselves were armored bunker doors. I think they were brought from
Bialystok, from some Russian bunkers.

Lanzmann: What was the capacity of the new gas chambers? There were two of
them, right?

Suchomel: Yes. But the old ones hadn't been demolished. When there were a lot
of trains, a lot of people, the old ones were put back into service. And here
... the Jews say there were five on each side. I say there were four, but I'm
not sure. In any case, only the upper row on this side was in action.

Lanzmann: Why not the other side?

Suchomel: Disposing of the bodies would have been too complicated.

Lanzmann: Too far?

Suchomel: Yes. Up there Wirth had built the death camp, assigning a detail of
Jewish workers to it. The detail had a fixed number in it, around two hundred
people, who worked only in the death camp.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 611       Fri Apr 03, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri]            at 20:45 EST
 
More of the Lanzmann interview of Franz Suchomel, SS Unterscharfuehrer
(Treblinka)   Continued

Lanzmann: But what was the capacity of the new, gas chambers?

Suchomel: The new gas chambers... Let's see... They could finish off three
thousand people in two hours.

Lanzmann: How many people at once in a single gas chamber?

Suchomel: I can't say exactly. The Jews say two hundred. Imagine a room this
size.

Lanzmann: They put more in at Ausczwitz.

Suchomel: Auschwitz was a factory!

Lanzmann: And Treblinka?

Suchomel: I'll give you my definition. Keep this in mind! Treblinka was a
primitive but efficient production line of death. Understand?

Lanzmann: Yes. But primitive?

Suchomel: Primitive, yes. But it worked well, that production line of death.

Lanzmann: Was Belzec even more rudimentary?

Suchomel: Belzec was the laboratory. Wirth was camp commandant. He tried
everything imaginable there. He got off on the wrong foot. The pits were
overflowing and the cesspool seeped out in front of the SS mess hall. It stank
in front of the mess hall, in front of their barracks.

Lanzmann: Were you at Belzec?

Suchomel: No. Wirth with his own men -with Franz, with Oberhauser and
Hackenhold- he tried everything there. Those three had to put the bodies in
the pits themselves so that Wirth could see how much space he needed. And when
they rebelled -Franz refused- Wirth beat Franz with a whip. He whipped
Hackenhold too. You see?

Lanzmann: Kurt Franz?

Suchomel: Kurt Franz. That's how Wirth was. Then, with that experience behind
him, he came to Treblinka.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 613       Fri Apr 03, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri]            at 20:46 EST
 
More of the Lanzmann interview of Franz Suchomel, SS Unterscharfuehrer
(Treblinka)   Continued

[...]

Suchomel: "Looking squarely ahead, brave and joyous, at the world, the squads
march to work. All that matters to us now is Treblinka. It is our destiny.
That's why we've become one with Treblinka in no time at all. We know only the
word of our Commander, we know only obedience and duty, we want to serve, to
go on serving, until a little luck ends it all. Hurray!"

Lanzmann: Once more, but louder!

Suchomel: We're laughing about it, but it's so sad!

Lanzmann: No one's laughing.

Suchomel: Don't be sore at me. You want history - I'm giving you history.
Franz wrote the words. The melody came from Buchenwald. Camp Buchenwald, where
Franz was a guard. New Jews who arrived in the morning, new "worker Jews,"
were taught the song. And by evening they had to be able to sing along with
it.

Lanzmann: Sing it again.

Suchomel: All right.

Lanzmann: lt's very important. But loud!

Suchomel: "Looking squarely ahead, brave and joyous, at the world, the squads
march to work. All that matters to us now is Treblinka. It is our destiny.
That's why we've become one with Treblinka in no time at all. We know only the
word of our Commander, we know only obedience and duty, we want to serve, to
go on serving, until a little luck ends it all. Hurray!"

Suchomel: Satisfied? That's unique. No Jew knows that today!
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 614       Fri Apr 03, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri]            at 20:46 EST
 
More of the Lanzmann interview of Franz Suchomel, SS Unterscharfuehrer
(Treblinka)   Continued

Lanzmann: How was it possible it Treblinka in peak days to "process" eighteen
thousand people?

Suchomel: Eighteen thousand is too high.

Lanzmann: But I read that figure in court reports.

Suchomel: Sure.

Lanzmann: To "process" eighteen thousand people, to liquidate them...

Suchomel: Mr. Lanzmann, that's an exaggeration. Believe me.

Lanzmann: How many?

Suchomel: Twelve thousand to fifteen thousand. But we had to spend half the
night at it. In January the trains started arriving at 6 A.M.

Lanzmann: Always at 6 A.M.?

Suchomel: Not always. Often. The schedules were erratic. Sometimes one came at
6 A.M., then another at noon, maybe another late in the evening. You see?
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 615       Fri Apr 03, 1992
AH.STEIN                     at 20:47 EST
 
 574  Raven:

 > You not only have gratuitously attacked the IHR,

 My pleasure.  They deserve all attacks launched against them.

 >you have completely misstated the case and ignored recent developments.
  .
  1) The court took judicial notice of the Holocaust, making it 
  virtually impossible for the underfinanced IHR to present its case.

 It's hard to present a case based on fantasy and lies.

 2) The IHR settled with Mermelstein to avoid a lengthy and costly 
  court battle. The court did not (and could not) order them to do 
  this.

 The IHR has not suffered from a lack of resources.

  3) Mermelstein's latest adventure against the IHR ended ignominiously, as
 Mermelstein's case did not even last through the first day of the hearings.

 Would you care to be specific, or is this another baseless statement like
 the "Anne Frank Diary" denial story?
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 616       Fri Apr 03, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri]            at 20:47 EST
 
More of the Lanzmann interview of Franz Suchomel, SS Unterscharfuehrer
(Treblinka)   Continued

Lanzmann: So a train arrived. I'd like you to describe in detail the whole
process during the peak period.

Suchomel: The trains left Malkinia station for Treblinka station. It was about
six miles. Treblinka was a village. A small village. As a station, it gained
in importance because of the transport of Jews. Thirty to fifty cars would
arrive. They were divided into sections of ten or twelve or fifteen cars and
shunted into Treblinka Camp and brought to the ramp. The other cars waited,
loaded with people, in the Treblinka station. The windows were closed off with
barbed wire so no one could get out. On the roofs were the "hellhounds," the
Ukrainians or Latvians. The Latvians were the worst. On the ramp, for each
car, there stood two Jews from the Blue Squad to speed things up. They said:
"Get out, get out. Hurry, hurry!" There were also Ukrainians and Germans.

Lanzmann: How many Germans?

Suchomel: From three to five.

Lanzmann: No more?

Suchomel: No more. I can assure you.

Lanzmann: How many Ukrainians?

Suchomel: Ten.

Lanzmann: Ten Ukrainians, five Germans. Two, that is, twenty people from the
Blue Squad.

Suchomel: Men from the Blue Squad were here, and here they sent the people
inside. The Red Squad was here.

Lanzmann: What was the Red Squad's job?

Suchomel: The clothes! To carry the clothes taken off by the men and by the
women up here immediately.

Lanzmann: How long was it between the unloading at the ramp and the
undressing, how many minutes?

Suchomel: For the women let's say an hour in all. An hour, an hour and a half.
A whole train took two hours. In two hours it was all over.

Lanzmann:   Between the time of arrival . . .

Suchomel:   and death . . .

Lanzmann:   . . . it war all over in two hours?

Suchomel: Two hours, two and a half hours, three hours.

Lanzmann: A whole train?

Suchomel: Yes, a whole train.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 617       Fri Apr 03, 1992
AH.STEIN                     at 20:47 EST
 
 576  Raven:

 > I have lost count of how many times you have depended on the 
  Franke-Gricksch Resettlement Action Report ...

 Which reminds me:  What is the basis for your undercount (by 5,400,000) of
 the number of Jews killed by the Nazis?  Is it simply that you lost count
 there as well? 
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 618       Fri Apr 03, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri]            at 20:48 EST
 
More of the Lanzmann interview of Franz Suchomel, SS Unterscharfuehrer
(Treblinka)   Continued

Lanzmann: And for only one section, for ten cars, how long?

Suchomel: I can't calculate that, because the sections came one after another
and people flooded in constantly, understand? Usually, the men waiting who sat
there, or there, were sent straight up via the "funnel." The women were sent
last. At the end. They had to go up there too, and often waited here. Five at
a time. Fifty people -- sixty women with children. They had to wait here until
there was room here. Naked! In summer and winter.

Lanzmann: Winter in Treblinka can be very cold.

Suchomel: Well, in winter, in December, anyway after Christmas. But even
before Christmas it was cold as hell. Between fifteen and minus four. I know:
at first it was cold as hell for us too. We didn't have suitable uniforms.

Lanzmann:   But it was colder. . .

Suchomel: . . . for those poor people . . .

Lanzmann: . . . in the "funnel."

Suchomel: In the "funnel" it was very, very cold.

Lanzmann: Can you describe this "funnel" precisely? What was it like? How
wide? How was it for the people in this 'funnel"?

Suchomel: It was about thirteen feet wide, as wide as this room. On each side
were palisades this high . . . or this high.

Lanzmann: Walls?

Suchomel: No, barbed wire. Woven into the barbed wire were branches of pine
trees. You understand? It was known as "camouflage." There was a Camouflage
Squad of twenty Jews. They brought in new branches every day from the woods.
So everything was screened. People couldn't see anything to the left or right.
Nothing. You couldn't see through it. Impossible.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 619       Fri Apr 03, 1992
AH.STEIN                     at 20:48 EST
 
 579  Raven:

 > Although I am sure that you wished ... as I did ... that your recent 
  actions to make this discussion more civilized would not be needed,...

 Any "discussion" where one party denies the murder of six million Jews by
 the Nazis is inherently uncivilized.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 620       Fri Apr 03, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri]            at 20:48 EST
 
More of the Lanzmann interview of Franz Suchomel, SS Unterscharfuehrer
(Treblinka)   Continued

Lanzmann: Treblinka, where so many people were exterminated, wasn't big, was
it?

Suchomel: It wasn't big. Sixteen hundred feet at the widest point. It wasn't a
rectangle, more like a rhomboid. You must realize that here the ground was
flat, and here it began to rise. And at the top of the slope was the gas
chamber. You had to climb up to it.

Lanzmann: The "funnel" was called the "Road to Heaven," wasn't it?

Suchomel: The Jews called it the "Ascension," also the "Last Road." I only
heard those two names for it.

Lanzmann: I need to see it. The people go into the "funnel." Then what
happens? They are totally naked?

Suchomel: Totally naked. Here stood two Ukrainian guards. Mainly for the men.
If the men wouldn't go in, they were beaten with whips. The men were "driven"
along. Not the women. They weren't beaten.

Lanzmann: Why such humanity?

Suchomel: I didn't see it. Maybe they were beaten too.

Lanzmann: Why not? They were about to die anyway.

Suchomel: At the entrance to the gas chambers, undoubtedly. In the "funnel,"
the women had to wait. They heard the motors of the gas chambers. Maybe they
also heard people screaming and imploring. As they waited, "death panic"
overwhelmed them. "Death panic" makes people let go. They empty themselves,
from the front or the rear. So often, where the women stood, there were five
or six rows of excrement.

Lanzmann: They stood?

Suchomel: They could squat or do it standing. I didn't see them do it, I only
saw the feces.

Lanzmann: Only women?

Suchomel: Not the men, only the women. The men were chased through the
"funnel." The women had to wait until a gas chamber was empty.

Lanzmann: And the men?

Suchomel: No, they were whipped in first. You understand? They always went
first.

Lanzmann: They didn't have to wait?

Suchomel: They weren't given time to wait, no.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 621       Fri Apr 03, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri]            at 20:49 EST
 
More of the Lanzmann interview of Franz Suchomel, SS Unterscharfuehrer
(Treblinka)   Continued

Lanzmann: And this "death panic"?

Suchomel: When this "death panic" sets in, one lets go. It's well known when
someone's terrified, and knows he's.about to die; it can happen in bed. My
mother was kneeling by her bed ...

Lanzmann: Your mother?

Suchomel: Yes. Then there was a big pile. That's a fact. It's been medically
proved. Since you wanted to know: as soon as they were unloaded, if they'd
been loaded in Warsaw, or elsewhere, they'd already been beaten. Beaten hard,
worse than in Treblinka, I can assure you. Then during the train journey,
standing in the cars, no toilets, nothing, hardly any water--fear. Then the
doors opened and it started again:

"Bremze, bremze!" "Czipsze, czipsze!"

I can't pronounce it, I have false teeth. It's Polish: Bremze or czipsze.

Lanzmann: What does bremze mean?

Suchomel: It's a Ukrainian word. It means "faster." Again the chase. A hail of
whiplashes. The SS man Kuettner's whip was this long. Women to the left, men
to the right. And always more blows. No respite. Go in there, strip. Hurry,
hurry! Always running.

Lanzmann: Running and screaming.

Suchomel: That's how they were finished off.

Lanzmann: That was the technique?

Suchomel: Yes, the technique. You must remember, it had to go fast. And the
Blue Squad also had the task of leading the sick and the aged to the
"infirmary," so as not to delay the flow of people to the gas chambers. Old
people would have slowed it down. Assignment to the "infirmary" was decided by
Germans. The Jews of the Blue Squad only implemented the decision, leading the
people there, or carrying them on stretchers. Old women, sick children,
children whose mother was sick, or whose grandmother was very old, were sent
along with the grandma, because she didn't know about the "infirmary." It had
a white flag with a red cross. A passage led to it. Until they reached the
end, they saw nothing. Then they'd see the dead in the pit. They were forced
to strip, to sit on a sandbank, and were killed with a shot in the neck. They
fell into the pit. There was always a fire in the pit. With rubbish, paper and
gasoline, people burn very well.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 622       Fri Apr 03, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri]            at 20:50 EST
 
More of the Lanzmann interview of Franz Suchomel, SS Unterscharfuehrer
(Treblinka)   Continued

Suchomel:  .... in, say, January, February, March, hardly any trains arrived.

Lanzmann: Was Treblinka glum without the trains?

Suchomel: I wouldn't say the Jews were glum. They became so when they realized
. . . I'll come to that later; it's a story in itself. The Jews, those in the
work squads, thought at first that they'd survive.  But in January, when they
stopped receiving food, for Wirth had decreed that there were too many of them
... There were a good five to six hundred of them in Camp 1.

Lanzmann: Up there?

Suchomel: Yes. To keep them from rebelling, they weren't shot or gassed, but
starved. Then an epidemic broke out, a kind of typhus. The Jews stopped
believing they'd make it. They were left to die. They dropped like flies. It
was all over. They'd stopped believing. It was all very well to say I... we...
kept on insisting: "You're going to live!" We almost believed it ourselves. If
you lie enough, you believe your own lies. Yes. But they replied to me: "No,
chief, we're just reprieved corpses."
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 623       Fri Apr 03, 1992
GRAFFITI [Ric Helton]        at 21:37 EST
 
[one message moved to topic 4, one moved to topic 7]
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 626       Sat Apr 04, 1992
C.MAIER [Claire]             at 01:02 EST
 
In the discussion of the boiling point of HCN, no one has mentioned that all
volatile liquids exist in equilibrium with their gaseous phase. I won't go
into great chemical details here, but an analogy could be used with water
vapor.  Even though the boiling point of water is 212 degrees F., much higher
than even the hottest summer day, there is always some water vapor present in
the air--this is the humidity.  This water vapor is stable in its gaseous
state, and as long as the temperature doesn't drop, it will not condense (warm
air can hold more of the gaseous phase of a volatile liquid than cold air). 
So for HCN, since its boiling point is so much lower than water, a much
greater concentration would be able to remain in a gaseous state than for
water, even on cold days.  Since the concentration needed to kill humans is so
low, it's quite possible that there wouldn't be appreciable condensation on
the walls.
 Also, a control sample of anything, by definition, is one believed to be
UNAFFECTED by whatever is being tested for.  So a sample taken from a
delousing chamber to test for cyanide cannot be a control sample.
 Removing the clothing and washing the skin of a person who has INHALED
cyanide will not help them; nor will it help remove cyanide from the body of a
person who has absorbed cyanide from any source (skin exposure, inhalation, or
ingestion).  The treatment for cyanide poisoning today includes administering
nitrites (inhalation and IV) followed by thiosulfate IV.

 PoohBah,
  There has been a great deal of discussion about Faurisson.  However, I am a
bit confused.  Exactly how did he get into trouble in France? What were the
charges against him?  What was his exact punishment (if that is the right word
for the loss of his position, etc)?  I am probably not asking everything I
want to know because I am fuzzy on the details of this affair, so maybe a
general "Faurisson overview" would be helpful for those like myself who have
gotten lost in all the discussion surrounding him. Thanks.

 Also, I have noticed that there hasn't been much mention of documents
produced by Adolph Hitler during the war and shortly before it.  What
documents are available?  Did he have diaries, orders to troups, speeches,
etc.?  I think this is important in establishing beyond a doubt the veracity
of the Holocaust--to get things from the horse's mouth, so to speak.  Could we
spend some time reading and discussing documents from Hitler himself?
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 627       Sat Apr 04, 1992
D.FRIEDMAN14                 at 05:52 EST
 
Claire:

I could be wrong, and I'll depend on Pooh-Bah to tell me if I am, of course,
but one would tend to think that the demon Hitler wasn't so involved in day-to-
day administrative details, given:  a.)  the fact that he was head of state;
and b.)  the huge and byzantine administrative appartus that  carried out the
crimes.

Dave
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 628       Sat Apr 04, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 06:16 EST
 
Claire (and Dave ): RE: Hitler. I have already u/l'ed the order signed by
him for the euthanasia program. We do have other documents in which he signed
to indicate that he had read them (I'll u/l some of those because they
indicate that Hitler knew that great numbers of Jews were being killed). We,
of course, have numerous speeches, two books that he wrote (Mein Kampf and a
second book which he never had published) and the conversations he had after
meals which were taken down in shorthand and transcribed. We also have his
"last testament" which he wrote from the bunker shortly before he took his own
life.

Dave is correct, though, in that we don't have many orders that bear his
signature.

I will type up some of information that we do have and u/l it here. I will do
the same with the Faurisson material.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 629       Sat Apr 04, 1992
GRAFFITI [Ric Helton]        at 07:51 EST
 
[3 messages deleted for being off-topic or personal attacks]
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 630       Sat Apr 04, 1992
J.STENGEL [John]             at 11:19 EST
 
     
  ---->G.RAVEN Message 475

    >To John Stengel (regarding 317) ---
    > Lets assume the Governor cuts the Warden's budget ... (and etc.)
    >.
    >These paragraphs seem to be nothing more than a figment of your 
    >imagination. Am I supposed to respond to them?
    .
   You correctly discerned that these paragraphs were a figment of my
imagination; my attempt at "black humor" (at the expense of Mr. Leuchter), did
have a point I was trying to illustrate.  The point was (and is) that while
HCN will kill instantly at very high levels of concentration, it will kill
(just as dead) at far lower levels of concentration given longer  exposure
time.  The point is  relevant and important to this discussion.
   .
   There has been some discussion on this topic as to design of gas chambers. 
It seems to me that the optimal design of the HCN gas chamber  is contingent
on how quickly it is desired to kill the victim.  If it is desired that the
victims be killed "instantly" (as in the Missouri gas chamber), then the
chamber must be of a highly sophisticated design  utilizing hermetic seals and
rapid ventilating systems.  The door seals and ventilation system are needed
in the "instant" death chamber because of the extremely high gas concentration
necessary to bring on instananeous death.  If, however,  he has no particular
concern for the human dignity  of the condemned (i.e. any concern for his
prolonged agony); the gas chamber  designer can be quite sloppy about "door
seals" and "ventilation  systems".  He (the designer) simply specifies that
the "chamber" be used at low gas concentration for long time periods.  Low gas
 concentration means less danger from seal leaks, short ventilation time, low
risk from breathing a few breaths.  Such a chamber is  lethal only to those
locked in it for an extended period of time.. say 15 to 30 minutes.  I direct
your attention to your post:
   .
   G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] Message 489:
   . 
   >By contrast, the stories about the homicidal gassings almost all 
   >say that the people are herded in, the gas is introduced into the 
   >room, fifteen minutes later the screaming stops, the doors to the 
   >"gas chamber" are thrown open, and the bodies dragged out, sometimes 
   >by workers who are smoking and eating, and have no protective clothing 
   >or respirators!
   .
   If it took fifteen minutes ("fifteen minutes later the screaming stops"),
then the gas concentration in the chamber was relatively low. With minimal
ventilation, the workers starting to remove the bodies with  "no protective
clothing or respirators" poses no particular technical problem. 
   .
   There is an inherent "conflict of interest" in utilizing a man like Fred
Leuchter to pass judgement on the mass death gas chambers of the camps. 
Leuchter is a "craftsman of death", an "artist" if you will;  analagous to to
the old pre-industrial age guild  craftsmen of Europe.  I am sure Mr. Leuchter
takes great professional pride in his work...the condemned gets truly
"personal service" from Mr. Leuchter.  When the industrial revolution started
turning out cheap mass produced goods, the old guild craftsmen probably 
sneered at the quality of those mass produced goods; perhaps they even
pronounced them unworkable or whatever.   Like our modern  Mr.Leuchter,  their
professional pride was highly offended... here were some sloppy upstarts
cranking out an inferior product;  certainly produced without the loving care
and pride with which they turned out their product!  Fred Leuchter cannot help
but be "alienated" by the idea of mass produced executions.       

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 631       Sat Apr 04, 1992
J.STENGEL [John]             at 11:21 EST
 
     ------>G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] Message 486          
  >As previously posted by me, once the ambient temperature drops below 
  >78.3 degrees F, condensation begins to take place. Any porous surface 
  >(skin, walls, clothing, wood, etc.) that comes in contact with the 
  >condensate will absorb it to some extent. The walls of the Missouri 
  >gas chamber are (were) steel with a sealing coat of paint over it 
  >(modern gas chambers use epoxy). The walls of the so-called gas 
  >chambers in Auschwitz were no so protected, so they would have 
  >absorbed HCN condensate.
   .
   If HCN condenses below 78.3 degrees F, then it EVAPORATES above 78.3
degrees F.  After 45 years, it would be a miracle if any crystaline HCN was
still on the walls; pourous or not pourous.  We must assume that any HCN
condensed on the walls would have re-evaporated each time (during the 45+
years since the chamber was last used) the temperature reached above 78.3 F. 
It simply evaporated and is "gone with the wind"! The only possible thing to
look for would be other cyanide compounds which would have a higher
evaporation point.   
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 635       Sat Apr 04, 1992
H.P.SKALIKS [Hans-Peter]     at 18:10 EST
 
John Stengel

 >>If HCN condenses below 78.3 degrees F, then it EVAPORATES
 >>above 78.3 degrees F.  After 45 years, it would be a
 >>miracle if any crystaline HCN was still on the walls;
 >>pourous or not pourous.  We must assume that any HCN
 >>condensed on the walls would have re-evaporated each time
 >>(during the 45+ years since the chamber was last used) the
 >>temperature reached above 78.3 F.  It simply evaporated
 >>and is "gone with the wind"! The only possible thing to
 >>look for would be other cyanide compounds which would have
 >>a higher evaporation point.

 The residues for which chemical tests were done were not HCN.
 It is sufficiently volatile that none would remain, especially
 after 45 years. In the same way that HCl (hydrogen chloride)
 dissolved in water creates hydrochloric acid, also with the
 formula HCl, a solution of HCN in water is hydrocyanic acid,
 which reacts quite vigorously with materials found in concrete
 and mortar to form relatively stable salts of the cyanide
 radical (CN).  The reason for tests in the delousing chambers
 was to investigate the stability of the residues over time. An
 execution chamber is guaranteed to contain water vapour from
 the victims and consequently it is a quite reasonable
 expectation to find CN salts present in the mortar and other
 construction materials. If these are wholly absent or only in
 trace amounts then the conclusion to be drawn is that these
 particular cement blocks or mortar were never exposed to
 hydrocyanic acid.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 636       Sat Apr 04, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 19:03 EST
 
 635 Hans-Peter:

  > An execution chamber is guaranteed to contain water vapour from
  > the victims and consequently it is a quite reasonable
  > expectation to find CN salts present in the mortar and other
  > construction materials. If these are wholly absent or only in
  > trace amounts then the conclusion to be drawn is that these
  > particular cement blocks or mortar were never exposed to
  > hydrocyanic acid.

 The above has some problems with it. First, the reason to test a control
 sample (i.e. a sample of the same material that is not expected to show any
 CN salts) is to verify that there is not some other reason for traces of
 hydrocyanic compounds. Leuchter, unfortunately, did not do this. Fortunately,
 though, the Krakow Institute of Forensic Expertise DID take such a control
 sample. That control sample was totally negative (i.e. no trace) and yet they
 did find traces in the gas chambers. From this, then, it is not logical to
 conclude that the bricks and mortar from the gas chambers "were never exposed
 to hydrocyanic acid" and, in fact, NONE of the reports concludes such (even
 Leuchter's).

 Second, it would not be a "reasonable expectation" to find hydrocyanic
 compounds present. Even though these compounds are MORE stable, there is no
 reason to expect them to still be present 43 years later. The Krakow report
 even addresses this very issue:

 "It [HCN] has an aciduious character and produces salts called cyanides when
 contacting with metals. Salts of alcalic metals such as natrium and calcium,
 are dissolvable in water.

 "HCN is a very poor acid and therefore its salts easily disperse if mixed
 with stronger acids. Such an acid is carbonic acid which emanates through the
 reaction of bicarbon oxide and water. Cyanides are more easily dissolved by
 stronger acids like sulfuric acid. Much more durable are those complex
 compounds of cyanic ions amalgamating with heavy metals. Such one is the
 aforementioned Prussian Blue, but even it dissolves slowly in an aciduious
 environment.

 "Under such circumstances it was a vain hope that after 45 years cyanide acid
 compounds could be found preserved in building material (plaster, brick) if
 exposed to the action of atmospheric forces such as aciduious rains and
 aciduious oxygenes, especially those of sulfurous and nitrogenous complexion.
 A better chance had the analysis of plaster taken from safe places, prtected
 from the action of precipitation (including aciduous rains)."

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 637       Sat Apr 04, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 19:04 EST
 
 635 Hans-Peter:

  > The reason for tests in the delousing chambers was to investigate the
  > stability of the residues over time.

 This statement would be reasonable IF the delousing chamber had been exposed
 to the same environmental forces as had the gas chambers. However, since the
 delousing chamber was left intact and the gas chambers had been destroyed and
 left exposed to the elements, testing of the samples from the delousing
 chamber would not logically produce the above conclusion.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 642       Sat Apr 04, 1992
J.STENGEL [John]             at 23:27 EST
 
    Ref:  C.MAIER [Claire] Message 626             
  .
  >In the discussion of the boiling point of HCN, no one has mentioned 
  >that all volatile liquids exist in equilibrium with their gaseous phase. 
  >I won't go into great chemical details here, but an analogy could be 
  >used with water vapor.  Even though the boiling point of water is 212 
  >degrees F., much higher than even the hottest summer day, there is 
  >always some water vapor present in the air--this is the humidity.  
  >This water vapor is stable in its gaseous state, and as long as the        

  >temperature doesn't drop, it will not condense (warm air can hold
  >more of the gaseous phase of a volatile liquid than cold air).  So 
  >for HCN, since its boiling point is so much lower than water, a much 
  >greater concentration would be able to remain in a gaseous state than 
  >for water, even on cold days.  Since the concentration needed to
  >kill humans is so low, it's quite possible that there wouldn't be
  >appreciable condensation on the walls.
  .
  Claire points out a very important fact here which supports the  hypothesis
of low HCN concentration  gas chambers.  Claire's point also answers Greg
Raven's objections in his post:
  . 
 >G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] Message 467        

   .
   >Auschwitz lies just above the 50th parallel, or roughly as close to 
   >the North Pole as Winnipeg, Canada. In the summer, it may reach 25.7 
   >degrees (78.3 F), but unless everything is at that temperature or 
   >above, HCN will condense. This means that for most of the year (and 
   >probably much of the day, even in the summer) the "gas chambers" 
   >would have had to be heated. Are there any heaters in the "gas 
   >chambers"? Answer: No.
   .
   >But let's take as a hypothesis that these efficient Germans found 
   >some way to heat these rooms on cool or cold days so they could carry 
   >out the executions without pause. What happens when you start to 
   >ventilate a warm room with cool (or cold) air? You get condensation. 
   >You get pockets of highly concentrated HCN gas. In some instances, 
   >you get concentrations high enough (over 6 percent) to become 
   >explosive... 
   .
   The maximum "saturation"  point of water vapor in (air at 1 atm) at 70 
degrees F (21 deg C) is approximately 19 grams/m^3...  at 60 degrees F (15.5
Deg C), the saturation point is about 15 grams/m^3; this means that if air
with a relative humidity of 99.9% at 70 degrees F is subjected to a
temperature drop of 10 degrees, about 4 grams of water per cubic meter of air
will condense out.  Compare these concentrations 15 and 20 grams/m^3 with the
reported lethal HCN concentration of 300 milligrams/m^3.   The dimensions of
the Missouri gas chamber were cited uptopic; also reported was the amount of
HCN used in that gas chamber ...it translated to approximately 34
grams/m^3...obviously the "saturation" point of HCN in air is much higher than
for water vapor.  Indeed, considering the lethality of HCN (at low
concentration) combined with the high saturation point and low boiling
temperature of HCN; one could  probably use a deep freezer room as a gas
chamber!  Even then there would probably not be appreciable HCN condensation! 
No Raven, there  was no need for heaters and no need to worry about (HCN
condensation) when ventilating the chamber with cool air. 

   .
  ---> POOH.BAH Message 443 
                  >Report to Reichsfuehrer SS Heinrich Himmler
                  >      From Alfred Franke-Gricksch
                  >             14-16 May 1943
   .
   >... When three- to four-hundred people have been herded into this room
   >the doors are shut,....As soon as the containers touch the base of the    

   >pillars, they release particular substances that put the people to sleep  

   >in one minute...
   .
   >...(Because fresh corpses burn particularly well, only
   >50-100 lbs. of coke are needed for the whole process.)
   .
   I am somewhat skeptical as to the authenticity of this document (or at
least as to the accuracy of translation):
   .
   1.  Because of the "one minute"; this contradicts the more abundant
accounts of 10 minutes to 30 minutes.
   .
   2. Because 50-100 lbs of coke does not sound like quite enough fuel to
cremate 300-400 corpses.
   .
   3. Why would Franke-Gricksch (who is presumably German, not British or
American) refer to lbs. (pounds) of coke rather than kilograms?  The Germans,
like all of Continental Europe, use (and used in 1943) the Metric System of
weights and measures...why would he (Franke-Gricksch) suddenly use the British
system in correspondence with Himmler?

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 643       Sun Apr 05, 1992
B.EATON2 [BZE]               at 01:30 EST
 
To Raven

Again, the burden of proof IS yours.  There are documents, not just the ones
quoted here, but masses of evidence that have been used to back up those who
say that approximately 6 million Jews, and many others, died as a direct
result of Nazi intentions to kill off those they considered inferior,
worthless, etc.  It is you who insist that all of this evidence is wrong,
misguided, misleading, deliberate lies, etc.  You tell us on what factual
grounds you make those assumptions.

On what grounds do you call the recollections of American soldiers at Dachau
'wrong?'  Were you there?  How do you know what they saw and heard?

As one who was alive and vitally interested in what was happening in Germany
in the late '30's and '40's, let me tell you that very little was known about
concentration camps except that such places existed for Jews and others who
were out of favor with the Nazis. No one could conceive of the horrors that
took place there until the war was over and rescuers and survivors could tell
their stories. Captured documents, such as the ones Pooh.Bah and Termy have
posted, also made clear the almost unbelievable inhumanity practiced in the
20th Century by those who could plan and carry out the destruction of men,
women, and children for no other crime than that they were not true 'aryans,'
a term which scientifically means nothing.

Every document shows the true extent of their 'solution to the Jewish
Problem,' the extinction of every Jew who was unfortunate enough to fall into
their hands.

In re message 484 you deny making the statement that '50,000' Jews remain in
Berlin.  Either you or Rungu did make that statement.  I remember it
particularly because I was recently in Berlin and was told that 10,000 Jews
remain in Germany.  I did not question you because I'm not sure of the
correctness of either number.  One of you, however did say it.

Please document which of FDR's advisors were 'bloodthirsty Zionists.'
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 644       Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 05:03 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 506) ---
 > Diesel engines were used for the gas chambers at the camps that 
 employed CO as the killing agents but it was gasoline engines 
 primarily that were used by the gas vans and, therefore, at Kulmhof 
 (Chelmno).
 .
 Could you please supply a reference for this statement?
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 645       Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 05:04 EDT
 
 To Termy (regarding 507) ---
 With the exception of the Tauber verdict, which is neither here nor 
 there, you seem to have made reference to documents concerned with 
 the Einsatzgruppen. I have already agreed that there were some 
 atrocities there. However, there were mitigating factors (such as the 
 guerrilla-style warfare taking place in these regions), and the short 
 existence of the Einsatzgruppen hardly translates into a program of 
 genocide. Please refer again to my message 169.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 646       Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 05:04 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 508) ---
 > Therefore, because these numbers fluctuated, so must the divisor.
 .
 My question is why there is a divisor in the first place! If the 
 number is wrong, it is simply wrong, and no divisor is going to make 
 it correct. In other words, this new method of Pressac's seems flawed 
 to me in that he tries to apply "corrections" to numbers he doesn't 
 like, as if to somehow make them okay, or to validate the rest of the 
 report from which these erroneous numbers are taken.
 ---
 Let me expand on this: let's say that in a report that has numbers 
 that need to be "corrected" with a divisor of two or three there are 
 non-numerical claims, such, "The Nazis would often machine-gun groups 
 of midgets to death," or, "The Nazis used a portable, pedal-operated 
 brain-bashing machine," or, "The Nazis used atomic devices to 
 obliterate Jews," etc. How in the world can you apply a divisor to a 
 statement such as these and make them "correct?"
 ---
 I stand by my statement that Pressac's methods are suspect.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 647       Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 05:05 EDT
 
 To Termy (regarding 509) ---
 > Proper scientific method calls for the taking of a control sample 
 which is not suspected or known to be contaminated with the 
 contaminant being tested for.
 .
 I understand your point. However, I will say once again that the 
 non-control samples obtain by Mr. Leuchter, when analyzed, were 
 positive, but at a level that was "very close to the detection 
 level." (Leuchter Report)
 .
 Let's say that Mr. Leuchter had taken a sample from some area somehow 
 known to never have been subjected to HCN. It would have tested out 
 at zero, because unlike radiation, I imagine there is precious little 
 naturally-occurring atmospheric HCN.
 .
 Now with his zero-result "control" sample, he would have compared 
 them against the other samples, and seen that there was not much 
 difference. However, he would not have known for sure what the upper 
 limit of a positive sample might be. Only by taking a incontestably 
 positive sample could he gauge into what range samples should fall.
 ---
 To put it another way, if he took a "clean" control sample and it was 
 virtually identical to that of the supposedly contaminated samples 
 from the "gas chambers," that would have indicated that the rooms 
 tested were never used as "gas chambers," but it would not have shown 
 what a test from a real gas chamber looked like.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 648       Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 05:05 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 510) ---
 Let's go back to the original post, shall we? I posted:
 >  Here are a few examples, with pages number references for any who 
 can locate a copy of this illusive tome:
 > There are six photos that show humane conditions at 
 Auschwitz-Monowitz. (pages 506-507) (These are from the Duerrfeld 
 file of Nuremberg trial number 6)
 ---
 You posted:
 > Apparently you are unfamiliar with the standard convention, then, 
 of putting your own comments in brackets []. This is used throughout 
 the board here and is used in most publications to designate editor's 
 comments (as opposed to the author's own parenthetical comments).
 .
 Can I take this to mean that you thought I was QUOTING Pressac in my 
 915? With page numbers? With parenthetical comments similar to those 
 in other examples (this was the last of many examples)? Please, 
 Pooh.bah, stop getting all worked up over your perceptions of the 
 form of my postings and deal with the content.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 649       Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 05:05 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 511) ---
 > Gee, it seems as though, once again, you are in error [about 
 temperatures at Auschwitz].
 .
 Are you proposing that by mentioning the temperature on a couple days 
 during the summer that we can extrapolate to the rest of the year and 
 come to the conclusion that the Auschwitz area has temperatures more 
 suited to the equator than the 50th parallel? If you could take a 
 moment and read my posting 466 (which you excerpted but apparently 
 did not read), you will see that I grant the possibility that during 
 the summer it may be warm enough.
 .
 However, it can scarcely be that temperature all day, even during the 
 summer, and I'm sure during the spring, fall, and winter the 
 temperature also drops. From the CIA World Factbook, 1991, we find:
 "Climate: temperate with cold, cloudy, moderately severe winters with 
 frequent precipitation; mild summers with frequent showers and 
 thundershowers"
 .
 From the New Family Encyclopedia we find:
 "The oceanic climate of Western Europe and the continental climate of 
 the Russian plains overlap in Poland. Rainfall is moderate, about 20 
 inches annually, in most of the country except for the southern 
 mountainous regions where humidity is higher and rainfall heavier. 
 Summers are fairly cool, averaging about 60 degrees F, and winters 
 can be rather cold, as in the northern United States or southern 
 Canada."
 .
 I know, I know ... these are more contemporary sources. However, I'll 
 bet that the climate hasn't changed that much in the last 50 years.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 650       Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 05:06 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 514) ---
 > You missed the point, Raven. Next time I won't be so subtle. 
 Armontrout describes on page 354 the Missouri gas chamber and its 
 operations. He includes in this description such things as the guards 
 vacating their watchtower positions when the gas is vented. However, 
 Armontrout has never been at the Missouri prison when the gas chamber 
 was used.
 .
 Could you please supply some evidence that Missouri never conducted 
 any tests or test-runs of their execution gas chamber to ensure its 
 functionality? If they did, then it is more than likely that he knows 
 what he is talking about. To put it another way, you are essentially 
 saying that Armontrout perjured himself. Are you sure you don't want 
 to reconsider?
 ---
 > BTW, thank you for bringing up the footnote. Leuchter testified (in 
 his futile attempt to qualify as an expert witness) that he had 
 designed the new gas chamber at Missouri. That was in the 1988 
 Zuendel trial and yet, in 1989 (one year later), the execution in 
 Missouri was performed by lethal injection. Hmmm.....
 .
 Anybody who understands English knows that designing something is 
 different that constructing it. Leuchter did not claim to have 
 constructed the gas chamber, did he? What's the problem here?
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 651       Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 05:06 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 518) ---
 > It [the Franke-Gricksch Resettlement Action Report Pooh.bah claims 
 to have reviewed] is a carbon copy of the original (as I have 
 previously stated). It can be found in the document center in Berlin. 
 The carbon copy I reviewed has none of the errors that you have 
 previously mentioned (which I found amazing since you cited no source 
 for those errors and, yet, you have admitted to not knowing 
 German....how did you do that?). What further description would you 
 like?
 .
 Just some of the basics. How many pages was it? Was it single-spaced 
 or double-spaced? Was it signed or initialed, and on what pages were 
 these signatures or initials (for example, only the first page, only 
 the last page, each page initialed, etc.)?
 .
 Of course, if you have a document number on it, or anything else, 
 that would be marvelous.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 652       Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 05:07 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 519) ---
 > When discussing a particular event that occurred at a particular 
 time, the relevant documents are the contemporary ones from which I 
 quoted. Those instructions [from DuPont] do not include the washing 
 of skin and, therefore, that wouldn't have been done or believed to 
 have been necessary during the Holocaust.
 .
 During the Holocaust? What is that phrase doing at the end of the 
 sentence? If you want a contemporary document, howza bout a little 
 bit of the Zyklon B manual from DEGESCH, which under the heading 
 "Toxicity," says:
 "The poison can enter the body in three ways: through the mouth, the 
 respiratory organs, or the pores of the skin."
 Apparently, they knew plenty about HCN ... even back then.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 653       Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 05:07 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 520) ---
 > "Once I was slightly gassed because the mask I was wearing was not 
 fully gas- tight. I felt nothing at the time but two hours afterward 
 I had a bad headache, a pain in the meninges and a burning pain in 
 the lungs. At first I did not go to the KB [hospital] but went out of 
 the block into the birch alley to breath deeply while doing knee 
 bends. The headache went away fairly quickly, but when I coughed a 
 little blood came up. Doctor Wasilewski diagnosed inflammation and 
 dehydration of the throat. After being hospitalized, I was cured in 
 two month...."
 > The diagnosis was NOT gas poisoning.
 .
 Let's look further at the Zyklon B manual from DEGESCH, under the 
 heading, "Poisoning and Antidotes":
 "The first stage of poisoning manifests itself in increasing local 
 irritation of the mucous membrane of eyes, throat or upper 
 respiratory tract, burning sensation on the tongue, peculiar metallic 
 and irritant taste in the mouth. The exhaled breath smells of 
 hydrocyanic acid; there is a sensation of pressure in the forehead, 
 general oppression, giddiness, disturbed equilibrium, stabbing pains 
 in the head, nausea, vomiting, tenesmus. Respiration quickens at 
 first and deepens later on; it is accompanied by a rush of blood to 
 the head and palpitation of the heart.
 "There follows an asthmatic stage, convulsive in character, and, 
 finally, an asphyctic stage. Death takes place if the patient cannot 
 be treated in time.
 "If the quantity of gas is very small, the body itself can convert it 
 into harmless compounds. So far no clear case of chronic poisoning is 
 on record.
 "As soon as the first stage of poisoning is observed, the most 
 important thing is to remove the patient from the gas infected area 
 into fresh air, away from all traces of gas. Moreover, the 
 respiration and heart action must be stimulated to the greatest 
 possible extent in order to accelerate conversion of the gas. ..."
 .
 There seems to be a pretty fair correlation between what Rablin 
 described and the method in the DEGESCH manual.
 .
 This point directly goes to your point about why some witnesses are 
 believed over others: when the witness' statements correspond to the 
 possible instead of to the impossible, the witness becomes more 
 valuable.
 ---
 However, the REAL question is why the Germans had a doctor look at 
 someone, and why they allowed a two-month recovering period? I 
 thought this was supposed to be a death camp!
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 654       Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 05:08 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 522) ---
 > This is really funny! Thank you for giving me such a good laugh! 
 Leuchter was an "eyewitness" to the proceedings which were 
 transcribed word for word. Yet you somehow now want us to discard 
 that transcription and prefer to base your conclusions on the MEMORY 
 of Leuchter? Cut it out....my sides are hurting!!!!
 .
 If you have a word-for-word copy of the transcript, you must have one 
 of the later, CORRECTED versions. To give one example, your copy must 
 have the correction on page 807 of volume 5, where the Judge uses the 
 word "kook" in reference to Mr. Zuendel.
 ---
 Of course, even if you do, that kinda blows your "word for word" 
 claim out of the water, because this reference was not in the 
 transcript originally. Only after Doug Christie bring the error to 
 light was the transcript corrected.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 655       Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 05:08 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 524) ---
 > Please cite your sources for this. [the time and procedure for 
 using Zyklon B for disinfecting a barracks, etc.]
 .
 From the DEGESCH Zyklon B book, under the heading, "Ventilation":
 "During this operation gas-masks must be worn. The ventilation takes 
 place in the reverse direction to the gassing. All windows near the 
 entrance are opened first, then gradually those in the rest of the 
 building. It is advisable to work only for 10 to 15 minutes at a time 
 and then to make interruptions of half an hour, as a precaution 
 against skin poisoning.
 "Depending on concentration, outdoor temperature and weather 
 conditions, ventilation will take at least 10 hours. Its duration 
 also depends on the type of building, number, size, and situation of 
 windows and other apertures. ..."
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 656       Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 05:09 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 525) ---
 > You forgot one very important step in your review of most accounts 
 - the ventilation system was turned on! That should be placed in the 
 above between "the screaming stops" and "the doors to the 'gas 
 chamber' are thrown open."
 .
 And you forgot one very important fact: these so-called gas chambers 
 either had no ventilation fans, or they were not adequate for the 
 purpose (per the Leuchter Report). Could you cite some of the 
 eyewitness accounts that mention the ventilation fans ... preferably 
 one account for each of the so-called killing areas?
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 657       Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 05:09 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 531) ---
 Could you please supply references for your repeated contentions that 
 the bodies of inmates at Auschwitz burn differently than other 
 bodies?
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 658       Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 05:09 EDT
 
 To Carl Fink (regarding 559) ---
 > Raven, your 462 - I haven't done any inorganic chemistry in a 
 while, but can you document your claim that the Germans used CO as a 
 fuel for engines? This strikes me as insane - the energy release is 
 very low, and making CO wastes lots of energy for no reason.
 .
 I read about these CO busses and saw the picture within the last two 
 months, but I cannot remember where at this moment. If I come across 
 the reference, I will try to remember to post it for you. I will 
 point out, however, that Germany was in a world of hurt for fuel, 
 rubber, oil, and other petroleum by-products, so they were looking at 
 all kinds of ways to keep things running. I know it sounds wacky to 
 burn wood in the back of a bus to provide "fuel," but apparently it 
 worked to some extent.
 ---
 > Raven, your 491: admitting that Weber is an expert is not admitting 
 that he is correct.
 .
 I believe you will find that M.Rungu posted 491, unless I am 
 misunderstanding and you wish to address some question to me.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 659       Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 05:10 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 585) ---
 > Both you and Raven have made the statement that the Holocaust is 
 the ONE single area of history which is the MOST rife with historical 
 error.
 .
 Could you please cite my posting in which I made this claim so I can 
 better address this issue?
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 660       Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 05:10 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 587) ---
 > For instance, I could point out that yesterday, there was a radio 
 talk show in which Bradley Smith appeared for 50 minutes and Rabbi 
 Marvin Hier from the Simon Wiesenthal Center was permitted a 10 
 minute rebuttal.
 .
 Are you sure that this is the way this event really happened? I know 
 that Bradley Smith is always willing to discuss face-to-face any 
 representative of the Holocaust establishment (even JDL 
 representative Michael Slomich!), and he has expressed regret that a 
 representative of the SWC will not discuss this matter with him. I 
 know there has been at least one instance in which the SWC 
 representative refused to be on the same show, and instead asked for 
 and received permission to deliver a 10-minute presentation at the 
 start of the show in lieu of a discussion with Smith.
 .
 If Rabbi Hier really wants to discuss the Holocaust story with Mr. 
 Smith, I will do everything in my power to help arrange it.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 661       Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 05:11 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 593) ---
 > Yet, you maintain that the post-war borders "did NOT
 include lands that had originally contained a large number of Jews."
 .
 I call 300,000 people a large number, even if they are Jews.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 662       Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 05:11 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 594) ---
 > Your whole message assumes that once a Rumanian Jew, one didn't 
 necessarily remain a Rumanian Jew (i.e. through land ceded to another 
 country) and that no one new could BECOME a Rumanian Jew.
 > Therefore, the figures you state become meaningless as proof of the 
 fallacy of Hilberg's figures.
 .
 I don't quite follow your logic, but I was not trying to "prove" the 
 fallacy of Hilberg's figures, but rather to show that there are still 
 questions remaining, even though Hilberg puts it all down in 
 black-and-white.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 663       Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 05:11 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 595) ---
 > Once again you are guilty of comparing apples and oranges. You 
 admit that the Hilberg data you discuss comes from the first edition 
 of his multi-volume set which he began writing in 1948 and was 
 published in the 1950's. You then compare this to a "recent article." 
 Better that you compare Hilberg's most recent edition (1985) to the 
 recent article.
 .
 Now you've gone and confused me. The first Hilberg book I have is but 
 a single-volume, copyright 1961. That's where I verified Termy's 
 numbers, and got others to go along with it. I then checked Hilberg's 
 1985 student edition, where he omits virtually all of the Romanian 
 population figures, but maintains the 270,000 figure for the number 
 of dead. There is no mention of 300,000 Romanians taking advantage of 
 the emigration offer.
 ---
 If what you say is true about the 300,000 to 340,000 emigrants, then 
 what that means is that Hilberg "found" more live Jews to emigrate, 
 but was absolutely accurate about the death toll? Wow. That's 
 strikingly similar to the Auschwitz situation, where they used to 
 claim 4 million deaths and later reduced it to just over 1 million 
 deaths, saying that the number of Jewish dead remained the same but 
 the other casualties were much less. Why are Jews so easy to count 
 accurately when they are dead?
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 664       Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 05:12 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 596) ---
 > I do agree with you, though, you have shown the difficulty of 
 accurately determining war-time demographics.
 .
 Amen (if it is appropriate for an atheist to say such a thing is this 
 forum!).
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 665       Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 05:12 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 597) ---
 > Raven, you have seen me state that I have respect for Mark Weber 
 yet disagree with his overall conclusions. ...
 .
 I believe someone else asked you that, not I.
 ---
 > I've been asked by many WHY I respect Mark Weber. One of the 
 reasons I do is because there are some points on which we do agree. 
 Our opinion of Paul Rassinier being one of them.
 > To quote from Lenski's book on Mark Weber's sworn testimony at the 
 Zuendel trial:
 > "Christie [Zuendel's attorney] questioned Weber about Paul 
 Rassinier, the French revisionist pioneer on whom Harwood relied 
 heavily. Weber regretted Rassinier's shortcomings, but emphasized his 
 reliability about subjects of which he had first-hand knowledge, such 
 as the Buchenwald and Dora camps.
 > Weber vigorously challenged the tendency of both Harwood and 
 Rassinier to overemphasize the alleged Jewish financial interest in 
 upholding the Holocaust story."
 > I base my agreement with Weber on my reading of Rassinier's "The 
 Holocaust Story" and "The Lies of Ulysses."
 .
 In my post 573 I quote a passage from an article by Rassinier about 
 the Kremer diary. That passage goes on to state:
 "This is what is called text and document criticism. It happens that 
 it is my professional specialty. I am therefore going to inflict upon 
 you, to my great regret, a course in 'text and document criticism.' I 
 ask you to pardon me for the strictness of the demonstration that I 
 am going to try to carry out in front of you."
 .
 If you meant what you said about Rassinier's "reliability about 
 subjects of which he had first-hand knowledge," then we are on firm 
 ground in examining what he had to say about the Kremer diary.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 666       Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 05:13 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 598) ---
 > It is curious that you have forgotten to mention the IHR suit 
 against Mermelstein for libel. That one didn't even last long enough 
 to go to a hearing!
 .
 Not so curious if you have been following along in the discussion. 
 You alleged that the IHR agreed to the judicial notice against them 
 in the first Mermelstein case when they signed the apology. This is 
 not true. To show that this is not true, I mentioned the latest 
 Mermelstein debacle, in which he and his lawyers attempted to run 
 that same argument past the judge. They got nowhere.
 .
 I realize there have been other court cases. Until you attempted to 
 change the subject, we were not talking about them.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 667       Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 05:13 EDT
 
 To Sheri Pierce (regarding 604) ---
 > HA HA HA HA HA. Did you expect anyone to take such slipshod 
 reporting by you as a serious impugning of Hilberg?
 .
 Why have you adopted such an uncivil tone toward me? I wasn't 
 attempted to discredit Hilberg. Rather, I was attempting to point out 
 that European demographics for the period 1933 through 1945 present 
 enormous difficulties, and that to state that the matter is settled 
 because "Hilberg says so" is simplistic.
 ---
 > You've demonstrated a complete absence of rational thought or 
 logic. Kremer said Auschwitz was an extermination camp (or in 
 Rassinier's stilted translation "the camp of the annihilation". 
 You're denying the obvious.
 .
 Ms. Pierce, do me a favor and take a deep breath. Relax for a moment. 
 Now, aren't you just the tiniest bit ashamed for attacking me like 
 this?
 .
 When you refer to "Rassinier's stilted translation," you may be 
 right. How would you translate "genannt das Lager der Vernichtung"? 
 Even with virtually no knowledge of German, I can tell that there are 
 the words "das" and "der" in the phrase, whereas the German for the 
 "traditional" translation would be something like "genannt 
 Vernichtungslager," yes? Wellers also omits the exclamation mark at 
 the end of the sentence, which makes Kremer seem callous and cold.
 ---
 > An eminent French scholar named George Wellers analyzed the diary 
 entry and the surrounding documentation for Le Monde. He did ACTUAL 
 archives for the date of the entry and found that 1710 Dutch Jews 
 arrived that day of which 1594 went immediately to the gas chamber. 
 [from 352 et al]
 .
 According to the "traditional" Holocaust story, there is no accurate 
 count of the number of people "gassed." Therefore, it is interesting 
 that Wellers was able to make such an accurate determination of 
 something we've all be told was unknowable. Furthermore, it is 
 possible that the documents Wellers consulted were the "Calendar of 
 Events at Auschwitz," which were drawn up by the Communist 
 authorities in Poland. As Rassinier notes, "It is already strange 
 that a court in the western world thus shows confidence in a document 
 drawn up by Stalinists."
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 668       Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 05:14 EDT
 
 To AH.STEIN (regarding 615 et al) ---
 I don't want to exclude anyone from the discussion here, but with 
 possibly one or two exceptions, out of the many posts you have left 
 in these topics you have added nothing substantive, and you have 
 asked no questions other than those designed to goad or denigrate. 
 With all due respect, if you really wish to participate, I would ask 
 that you refrain from continuing in your present vein and offer some 
 kind of evidence, to demonstrate that you have some actual knowledge 
 about this matter and not just hostile emotions. If you cannot (or 
 will not) accede to this request, then you must agree that your 
 belief in the Holocaust story is baseless.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 669       Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 05:14 EDT
 
 To AH.STEIN (regarding 617) ---
 > What is the basis for your undercount (by 5,400,000) of the number 
 of Jews killed by the Nazis?
 .
 I base my opinion on the work of demographers Carl Nordling and 
 Walter Sanning.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 670       Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 05:15 EDT
 
 To Claire Maier (regarding 626) ---
 > In the discussion of the boiling point of HCN, no one has mentioned 
 that all volatile liquids exist in equilibrium with their gaseous 
 phase.
 .
 I was going to mention this after my conversation with Mr. Leuchter 
 the other day, because he brought it up as well. I just got lazy. I 
 believe, however, that even in its gaseous state, the HCN will bind 
 with the iron (and other heavy metal) ions to form the 
 ferric-ferro-cyanide compounds.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 671       Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 05:15 EDT
 
 To John Stengel (regarding 630) ---
 > The point was (and is) that while HCN will kill instantly at very 
 high levels of concentration, it will kill (just as dead) at far 
 lower levels of concentration given longer exposure time. The point 
 is relevant and important to this discussion.
 .
 As I have pointed out, even in massive over-doses death from HCN gas 
 is not "instantaneous." In lower concentrations, the speed of death 
 would be slower still, and in the huge rooms that are alleged to have 
 been the "gas chambers," and which were supposedly packed tight with 
 people, the propagation of the gas through the room would have been 
 fairly slow (re: Leuchter Report, DEGESCH Zyklon B manual).
 ---
 > If it is desired that the victims be killed "instantly" (as in the 
 Missouri gas chamber), then the chamber must be of a highly 
 sophisticated design utilizing hermetic seals and rapid ventilating 
 systems. ... If, however, he has no particular concern for the human 
 dignity of the condemned (i.e. any concern for his prolonged agony); 
 the gas chamber designer can be quite sloppy about "door seals" and 
 "ventilation systems"
 .
 The point about the door seals and ventilation systems is not so much 
 for the victims as for the people outside the chamber carrying on the 
 execution. The facilities at Auschwitz, Birkenau, and Majdanek would 
 not have been safe for those on the outside of the so-called gas 
 chambers. There is the danger of HCN poisoning, but there are also 
 dangers from explosion (such a pocket of HCN gas form at the proper 
 concentration) due to ignition, and from explosion due to rapid 
 polymerization (which can happen in sunlight, according to DuPont).
 ---
 > There is an inherent "conflict of interest" in utilizing a man like 
 Fred Leuchter to pass judgment on the mass death gas chambers of the 
 camps. Leuchter is a "craftsman of death", an "artist" if you will; 
 analogous to the old pre-industrial age guild craftsmen of Europe. 
 ... Fred Leuchter cannot help but be "alienated" by the idea of mass 
 produced executions.
 .
 I will have to ask that you refrain from further speculation about 
 what Mr. Leuchter would or would not do in any given situation. It is 
 not fair to him and it does nothing to further the discussion. You 
 might be interested to learn that before conducting his 
 investigation, Mr. Leuchter believed in the "gas chamber" stories 
 wholeheartedly.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 672       Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 05:15 EDT
 
 To John Stengel (regarding 631) ---
 > If HCN condenses below 78.3 degrees F, then it EVAPORATES above 
 78.3 degrees F. After 45 years, it would be a miracle if any 
 crystalline HCN was still on the walls; porous or not porous. We must 
 assume that any HCN condensed on the walls would have re-evaporated 
 each time (during the 45+ years since the chamber was last used) the 
 temperature reached above 78.3 F. It simply evaporated and is "gone 
 with the wind"! The only possible thing to look for would be other 
 cyanide compounds which would have a higher evaporation point.
 .
 You are no doubt correct, but Mr. Leuchter (and the others who have 
 conducted similar tests) have not tested for HCN ... crystalline or 
 otherwise. They have tested for the presence of ferric-ferro-cyanide 
 compounds, which form when HCN comes into contact with iron in the 
 brick and mortal to produce "a very stable iron-cyanide complex," 
 according to the Leuchter Report.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 673       Sun Apr 05, 1992
E.BROWN42 [scaramouche]      at 05:33 EDT
 
Raven,

RE:650

As a resident of the budget-conscious state of Missouri, I can assure you that
there is no "new gas chamber" in the state. The old chamber in the Jefferson
City prison was considered for reconditioning, but lethal injection was chosen
for reasons of cost-effectiveness, among others. Leucher MIGHT have tried to
sell the state a design for a new gas chamber, but given his lack of
credentials, it was most probably a "no-go".

Scaramouche
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 674       Sun Apr 05, 1992
GRAFFITI [Ric Helton]        at 10:58 EDT
 
[7 messages moved to topic 4]
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 675       Sun Apr 05, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 12:29 EDT
 
 639 Hans-Peter:


  > You have introduced a whole new range of parameters into this scenario.

 Not at all. This discussion began when I posted, among other things, the
 Krakow report which included the quotes I inserted into message 636 and
 Leuchter's comments regarding the gas chambers having been razed to their
 foundations.

  > Had the execution chamber under discussion been open to the elements for
  > 45 years, then yes, the surface traces of CN compounds could be expected
  > to have dissolved. However, the "open to the elements phase" was much less
  > than 45 years for this building, was it not?

 The gas chambers were destroyed in 1945 by the Nazis before they evacuated
 Auschwitz. Leuchter's report was prepared in 1988 so that means that 43 years
 had elapsed. The Krakow report was prepared in 1990 so that means that 45
 years had elapsed. That, then, is how long these walls had been exposed to
 the elements.

  > It would have been better also, if the physical measurements had been
  > analysed by somebody other than the Polish communist authorities, who had
  > a vested interest in the story surrounding this facility.

 First, the Polish authorities who did the analysis were not from the
 communist regime. The study was conducted in 1990 (although the same
 institute also did a study in 1945!). And, as to having a "vested interest,"
 who would you suggest perform the study? IOW, who does NOT have a "vested
 interest?" Leuchter got paid $35,000 for his report....by a man on trial for
 spreading false news by claiming that the gas chambers did not exist (among
 other things). That, too, is a vested interest.

  > Although the physical evidence suggests some exposure to hydrocyanic acid
  > for these cement blocks, the support for a hypothesis involving thousands
  > of 15-minute exposures is pretty weak.

 From where do you arrive at the "thousands" of exposures?

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 676       Sun Apr 05, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 12:30 EDT
 
 642 John:

  >    I am somewhat skeptical as to the authenticity of this document (or at
  > least as to the accuracy of translation):
  >    .
  >    1.  Because of the "one minute"; this contradicts the more abundant
  > accounts of 10 minutes to 30 minutes.
  >    .
  >    2. Because 50-100 lbs of coke does not sound like quite enough fuel to
  > cremate 300-400 corpses.
  >    .
  >    3. Why would Franke-Gricksch (who is presumably German, not British or
  > American) refer to lbs. (pounds) of coke rather than kilograms?  The
  > Germans, like all of Continental Europe, use (and used in 1943) the Metric
  > System of weights and measures...why would he (Franke-Gricksch) suddenly
  > use the British system in correspondence with Himmler?

 Remember that this is a document submitted by a subordinate (and not a DIRECT
 subordinate) back to Berlin. As has been mentioned before, this document (as
 well as the Einsatzgruppen reports, etc.) cannot be used as a statement of
 FACT but only as a statement of what the subordinates wanted the hierarchy to
 believe. Therefore, they are more supportive of a systematic extermination
 POLICY than the overall execution of that policy.

 Let's take each point one-by-one:

  (1) Length of time: Remember that this was an official inspection trip. It
 is possible that those operating the gas chamber wanted to make it appear
 that the gassing was quicker than it really was (and, therefore, used more
 Zyklon-B) or that F-G was trying to impress Himmler. In one of these
 possibilities, F-G was accurate and in the other he was shading the truth.
 Either way, this does not put into question the authenticity of the document
 or of its translation.

  (2) Amount of coke: This, too, could either be true or a figure submitted to
 impress Himmler. Either way, this does not put into question the authenticity
 of the document or its translation.

  (3) Use of "lbs.": I admit that this is not in the original but is part of
 the translation. Just as I have translated the degrees C into F for HCN, I
 have also translated the kg into lbs to allow easier understanding for an
 American audience. It is also true that in the case of temperatures I have
 listed the C when mentioning the F, in this case I did not do so because I
 had typed up this document early on in this discussion (it was one of the
 first documents that I posted) and, at that time, I had been unaware of how
 many individuals would be participating/lurking who were used to both units
 of measurement.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 677       Sun Apr 05, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 12:31 EDT
 
 646 Raven:

  > My question is why there is a divisor in the first place! If the 
  > number is wrong, it is simply wrong, and no divisor is going to make 
  > it correct.

 Let's say that you have evaluated a site and believe that, based upon your
 own calculations and scientific knowledge, 50 people were killed there. Now,
 let's say that there is a document that claims that 100 were killed there and
 another document which claims that 150 were killed there.

 Now, when you write your report, you could say that the numbers in the
 documents need to be divided by 2 or 3 to be correct, couldn't you? You could
 also say that the numbers are wrong and that only 50 were killed there,
 couldn't you? These two statements are equivalent, aren't they?

 So, what you seem to be doing is arguing about Pressac's writing style and
 not about the meaning of what he has said.

  > Let me expand on this: let's say that in a report that has numbers 
  > that need to be "corrected" with a divisor of two or three there are 
  > non-numerical claims, such, "The Nazis would often machine-gun groups 
  > of midgets to death," or, "The Nazis used a portable, pedal-operated 
  > brain-bashing machine," or, "The Nazis used atomic devices to 
  > obliterate Jews," etc. How in the world can you apply a divisor to a 
  > statement such as these and make them "correct?"

 If Pressac had applied this method of the divisor to documents which made any
 of the above statements, I would say that you were correct. However, a better
 example would be:

 Let's say that I had been riding a bicycle down the road and was hit by a
 car. I was badly injured and an ambulance was called to the scene. Later, the
 police took a statement from me. In that statement I told them that I had
 been riding my bicycle on the right side of the road when I was hit from the
 rear by a car and thrown at least 200 feet. Someone called an ambulance and
 it took it an hour or two to arrive.

 In the above example, it might be true that I had been hit by a car while
 riding my bicycle. It might also be true that I had been hit from the rear
 and was thrown through the air. However, my statement of "at least 200 feet"
 and that it took the ambulance "an hour or two" would probably not be
 accurate and might, indeed, have to be divided by 2 or 3 to bring them into
 line with the truth. However, even if that is true, that does not mean that
 suddenly I would be injury free because my exaggeration translates into the
 non-existence of the accident.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 678       Sun Apr 05, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 12:32 EDT
 
 647 Raven:

  > I understand your point. However, I will say once again that the 
  > non-control samples obtain by Mr. Leuchter, when analyzed, were 
  > positive, but at a level that was "very close to the detection 
  > level." (Leuchter Report)

 To be accurate, the "detection level" was 1 mg/kg and the samples which
 Leuchter did not label as a control sample ranged from 1.1-7.9 mg/kg.

  > Now with his zero-result "control" sample, he would have compared 
  > them against the other samples, and seen that there was not much 
  > difference. However, he would not have known for sure what the upper 
  > limit of a positive sample might be. Only by taking a incontestably 
  > positive sample could he gauge into what range samples should fall.

 First, I have stated that Leuchter should have taken samples (notice the
 plural) from the delousing chamber. However, a sample from there is NOT a
 "control sample" which is what Leuchter claims. Therefore, it brings into
 question Leuchter's knowledge of scientific terms and methods.

 Second, the delousing chamber has not been exposed to the elements. So, a
 sample from there does not indicate what how the samples from surfaces
 exposed should have tested.

 Third, at no time does Leuchter account for the differences between the
 concentrations of HCN in a delousing chamber as opposed to a gas chamber.

 Therefore, in a proper study such samples do need to be taken, Leuchter fails
 to apply standard analysis procedures to them and incorporate that analysis
 into his final report.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 679       Sun Apr 05, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 12:32 EDT
 
 648 Raven:

  > Can I take this to mean that you thought I was QUOTING Pressac in my 
  > 915?

 You can take it to mean that your notation left doubt as to whether you were
 adding an editorial comment or including something directly from Pressac. My
 statement was for the purpose of clarifying that fact.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 680       Sun Apr 05, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 12:33 EDT
 
 649 Raven:

  > Are you proposing that by mentioning the temperature on a couple days 
  > during the summer that we can extrapolate to the rest of the year and 
  > come to the conclusion that the Auschwitz area has temperatures more 
  > suited to the equator than the 50th parallel? If you could take a 
  > moment and read my posting 466 (which you excerpted but apparently 
  > did not read), you will see that I grant the possibility that during 
  > the summer it may be warm enough.

 Actually, the message in which you mentioned temperatures was in 467 and not
 466. 

  > Auschwitz lies just above the 50th parallel, or roughly as close to 
  > the North Pole as Winnipeg, Canada. In the summer, it may reach 25.7 
  > degrees (78.3 F), but unless everything is at that temperature or 
  > above, HCN will condense. This means that for most of the year (and 
  > probably much of the day, even in the summer) the "gas chambers" 
  > would have had to be heated. Are there any heaters in the "gas 
  > chambers"? Answer: No.

 You do grant the possibility that it might be barely warm enough for HCN to
 be in a totally gaseous state. However, I supplied the proof that it was way
 above the temperature needed on certain days. Then, I later made the point
 about the difference between "climate" and "weather." The winter climate for
 NYC is that there should be snow. However, this winter there was very little
 of the white stuff. However, 50 years from now, someone might be writing the
 history of this last winter and ASSUME that there was plenty of snow because
 that would be usual.

 A serious researcher in this field would get all the possible weather data
 from that time.

 As far as the lack of heaters in the gas chambers, I assume that you mean of
 the inorganic type. After all, there were about 300 naked human bodies which
 would have produced around 3900 BTU. That is more than enough to heat that
 small space.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 681       Sun Apr 05, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 12:34 EDT
 
 650 Raven:

  > Could you please supply some evidence that Missouri never conducted 
  > any tests or test-runs of their execution gas chamber to ensure its 
  > functionality? If they did, then it is more than likely that he knows 
  > what he is talking about. To put it another way, you are essentially 
  > saying that Armontrout perjured himself. Are you sure you don't want 
  > to reconsider?

 When Armontrout was on the stand, the gas chamber had yet to be installed.
 According to Scaramouche's 673, it still has yet to be installed. Therefore,
 without the gas chamber present, it would have been impossible to have
 conducted tests.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 682       Sun Apr 05, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 12:34 EDT
 
 652 & 653 Raven:

  > During the Holocaust? What is that phrase doing at the end of the 
  > sentence? If you want a contemporary document, howza bout a little 
  > bit of the Zyklon B manual from DEGESCH, which under the heading 
  > "Toxicity," says:
  > "The poison can enter the body in three ways: through the mouth, the 
  > respiratory organs, or the pores of the skin."

  > This point directly goes to your point about why some witnesses are 
  > believed over others: when the witness' statements correspond to the 
  > possible instead of to the impossible, the witness becomes more 
  > valuable.

 I'm glad that you agree that Rablin is believable. After all, his total
 account is fascinating in light of your insistence that all methods of entry
 for HCN are equally dangerous (i.e. inhalation, ingestion, through contact
 with the skin). Let's look at his account of how he helped delouse clothing:

 "We put on our gas masks and went in the room naked or wearing underpants....
 When we went in to spread the gas, the lice jumped on us and the layers
 disappeared very fast....Since we were afraid of being bitten by the lice, we
 put the chisel, the hammer and the can of Zyclon-B ready in advance, opened
 it quickly and threw the substance on the floor. Despite the speed of this
 operation the lice jumped on our legs and to protect ourselves we spread a
 little Zyclon-B around our feet. Immediately, I could feel the lice drop off,
 dead. Sometimes at the moment when the gas evaporated, I tried to feel it by
 handling the crystals. They felt like velvet and were cool and damp...The gas
 was very dangerous for us. Before we closed the door and sealed it with
 strips of paper, a little of the gas would escape into the corridor. Apart
 from us two who were protected by gas masks, the rest did not have any."

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 683       Sun Apr 05, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 12:35 EDT
 
 659 Raven:

  > To Pooh.bah (regarding 585) ---
  >> Both you and Raven have made the statement that the Holocaust is 
  >> the ONE single area of history which is the MOST rife with historical 
  >> error.
  .
  > Could you please cite my posting in which I made this claim so I can 
  > better address this issue?

 Then please review your message 885 in TOPic 4.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 684       Sun Apr 05, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 12:36 EDT
 
 661 Raven:

  > I call 300,000 people a large number, even if they are Jews.

 Then apparently you now disagree with you message 572 which you posted two
 days ago. In that message you stated:

  > Hilberg later repeats his 800,000 figure (number of Jews in Roumania 
  > in 1939), and adds that in 1945 (presumably after the war) there were 
  > 430,000 Jews in Roumania, although this figure is for Jews within the 
  > post-war boundaries. According to my encyclopedia, after WWII, 
  > Roumania's loss of Bessarabia and northern Bukovina to the Soviet 
  > Union, and her loss of southern Dobruja to Bulgaria, were made 
  > permanent (she regained northern Transylvania). Thus, the post-war 
  > borders were much smaller, and did NOT include lands that had 
  > originally contained a large number of Jews.

 BTW, for the record, were you trying to be cute or amusing by your addition
 of "even if they are Jews" in your message 661 or are you showing us your
 agenda?

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 685       Sun Apr 05, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 12:36 EDT
 
 662 Raven:

  > I don't quite follow your logic, but I was not trying to "prove" the 
  > fallacy of Hilberg's figures....

 Then why did you state the following in #572?

  > ....I will take one statistic of Hilberg's that you have 
  > quoted and examine it, with the hopes that I can show the difficulty 
  > of accurately determining war-time demographics, and the fallicy of 
  > accepting even Hilberg's figures.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 686       Sun Apr 05, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 12:37 EDT
 
 663 Raven:

  > Now you've gone and confused me. The first Hilberg book I have is but 
  > a single-volume, copyright 1961. That's where I verified Termy's 
  > numbers, and got others to go along with it. I then checked Hilberg's 
  > 1985 student edition, where he omits virtually all of the Romanian 
  > population figures, but maintains the 270,000 figure for the number 
  > of dead. There is no mention of 300,000 Romanians taking advantage of 
  > the emigration offer.

 Sorry that I had assumed that you had at least ONE unabridged version of
 Hilberg. So, are you saying that you have TWO copies of Hilberg and they are
 BOTH the single volume abridged versions?

  > If what you say is true about the 300,000 to 340,000 emigrants, then 
  > what that means is that Hilberg "found" more live Jews to emigrate, 
  > but was absolutely accurate about the death toll?

 This is not a question of "finding" more live Jews. Let's go over the
 Hilberg's figures again. There were 800,000 Jews in Romania according to the
 census in 1939. Then, based upon the 1937 borders and including those Jews
 who were exterminated but had been baptised Christians (and, therefore,
 possibly not in the 1939 census), there were 270,000 Jewish deaths. That
 would then leave 530,000 Jews living. Out of this number, it is very easy to
 see where 300,000 could take advantage of the emigration offer, isn't it?
 That would leave 230,000 Jews.

 Yet, there were other Romanian Jews who emigrated besides those 300,000.
 According to Hilberg, during that time period, there were an additional
 40,000 who emigrated. This would still leave 190,000 providing no birth,
 deaths, or other emigration (which, of course, is false).

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 687       Sun Apr 05, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 12:37 EDT
 
 663 Raven:

  > Why are Jews so easy to count accurately when they are dead?

 I would suggest that you tread very carefully, Raven....your agenda is
 showing again.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 688       Sun Apr 05, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 12:38 EDT
 
 665 Raven:

  > If you meant what you said about Rassinier's "reliability about 
  > subjects of which he had first-hand knowledge," then we are on firm 
  > ground in examining what he had to say about the Kremer diary.

 Once again, you are quoting out of context in such a way that it alters the
 meaning. Let me re-quote what Mark Weber said:

  > Weber regretted Rassinier's shortcomings, but emphasized his reliability
  > about subjects of which he had first-hand knowledge, such as the 
  > Buchenwald and Dora camps.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 689       Sun Apr 05, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 12:40 EDT
 
 667 Raven:

  > How would you translate "genannt das Lager der Vernichtung"?

 In this phrase, "Vernichtung" is the most important word to know which
 translation is correct. "Lager der Vernichtung" means Camp [Lager] of
 "Vernichtung."

 "Vernichtung" is a noun which comes from the verb "vernichten." This is much
 like our "extermination" comes from "exterminate" or "annihilation" comes
 from "annijilate."

 Looking in a German/English dictionary we find:

 "vernichten: annihilate, destroy utterly, exterminate."

 "Vernichtung: annihilation, extinction, destruction, extermination."

 Then, looking in J.I.Rodale's "Synonym Finder", "annihilation" and
 "extermination" cross check as synonyms in English.

 Therefore, I would probably translate it as "camp of extermination" but a
 translation of "camp of annihilation" means the same thing and is equally
 acceptable.

 However, in English to alleviate "wordiness" we might say "extermination
 camp" or "annihilation camp" and both of these phrases would be synonomous
 with the "camp of...." wording.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 690       Sun Apr 05, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 12:41 EDT
 
 671 Raven:

  >> ... Fred Leuchter cannot help but be "alienated" by the idea of mass 
  >> produced executions.
  .
  > I will have to ask that you refrain from further speculation about 
  > what Mr. Leuchter would or would not do in any given situation.

 Does this mean that after your many phone conversations with Fred Leuchter,
 you believe that he would NOT be alienated by the idea of mass produced
 exectuions?

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 691       Sun Apr 05, 1992
H.P.SKALIKS [Hans-Peter]     at 16:34 EDT
 
B.EATON2...message 643

The word "proof" is the wrong word for either camp in this debate. It is not
possible to "prove" the non-occurrence of an event. It is only possible to
show that the evidence in favour of the occurrence of an event is non-
existent, ambiguous, or flawed. Even the total absence of evidence would not
constitute "proof" in the mathematical sense of the word. It just suggests
that the occurrence of the event was improbable.

It would be like asking somebody to prove that no extraterrestrials ever
landed on the earth. This cannot be done. There IS some physical evidence that
COULD be interpreted in the affirmative for the extraterrestrial question, but
the evidence is ambiguous in that it can be explained away without resorting
to extraterrestrials as the explanation.

A great deal of this debate is very similar to the science- creationist
debates in that different criteria are being used by the opposing sides to
evaluate evidence. A fish fossil found on a mountain top is evidence of the
great flood to the creationist and evidence of a plate upheaval for me. It is
impossible to defeat a creationist in an argument because the standards of
evidence and the methods to evaluate them are different. The reason that the
creationist model is not used is not so much because it can be demonstrated to
be false but because it is not very useful as a tool for scientific research.

The only method open to somebody who wishes to dispute any historical event is
to show that the evidence in favour of the event can be explained in terms of
more PROBABLE causes or that more than one reasonable explanation is possible
for specific pieces of evidence. There is always a fair bit of subjectivity in
deciding what a given piece of evidence actually means.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 692       Sun Apr 05, 1992
H.P.SKALIKS [Hans-Peter]     at 17:52 EDT
 
 POOH.BAH...message 675

 >The gas chambers were destroyed in 1945 by the Nazis before
 they evacuated Auschwitz. Leuchter's report was prepared in
 1988 so that means that 43 years had elapsed.  The Krakow
 report was prepared in 1990 so that means that 45 years had
 elapsed. That, then, is how long these walls had been exposed
 to the elements.<

 I somehow got the impression from the various posts that these
 facilities were standing again as part of the Auschwitz
 memorial created by the Polish government. There were comments
 about roof ventilation, etc. IF the roof was restored, when
 was this done? In addition, if the building had been razed
 (which leaves the impression of "level with the earth") what
 was being tested?

 >From where do you arrive at the "thousands" of exposures?<

 If even a modest percentage of the 1.1 million victims were
 gassed in this facility (say 30%) and the capacity of this
 room were 300 people, then that alone would produce 1000
 exposures. Some of the posts mentioned 200 to 250 people at a
 time. Nobody has mentioned the dimensions of this shower
 room/gas chamber.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 693       Sun Apr 05, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 20:23 EDT
 
692 Hans-Peter:

  > I somehow got the impression....that these facilities were standing
  > again as part of the Auschwitz memorial....

The memorial is at Auschwitz I and Krema I there has been restored. However,
Krema II, III, IV and V at Auschwitz II (Auschwitz-Birkenau) have not been
restored. Also, the two houses that were originally used have not been
restored to their condition when the Nazis occupied the area. 

As far as your calculations on how many times the gas chambers were used, you
are apparently operating on the assumption of a single gas chamber. There were
gas chambers in two houses plus Krema I-V. So, if all 1.1 million were gassed
(which wasn't the case) and there were 300 per gassing and each chamber was
used an equal number of times (which also wasn't the case) that would mean
that each chamber was used about 523 times.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 694       Sun Apr 05, 1992
J.WEIR9                      at 21:11 EDT
 
RE: Message 631 /J.STENGEL . > If HCN condenses below 78.3 degrees F, then it
EVAPORATES above 78.3 >degrees F.  After 45 years, it would be a miracle if
any crystaline HCN was >still on the walls; pourous or not pourous.  We must
assume that any HCN >condensed on the walls would have re-evaporated each time
(during the 45+ >years since the chamber was last used) the temperature
reached above 78.3 F.  >It simply evaporated and is "gone with the wind"! The
only possible thing to >look for would be other cyanide compounds which would
have a higher >evaporation point. .
 HCN is an unstable compound and bonds with other chemicals to form more stable
compounds. In the case of the Birkenau "gas chambers" the chemical which would
have formed after HCN condensed on the wall is Prussian Blue, aka ferric-ferro-
cyanide after bonding with iron in the brick and mortar. This  compound is
very stable. Since the walls of the "gas chambers" would have been
continuously exposed to HCN for about a year and a half during all kinds of
weather, these iron-cyanide compounds would have had ample opportunity to
form. They should still be there. Leutcher, and Poles at the Medico-Legal
Institute have shown they are not, at least, in any abundance. . RE: Message
630  /J.STENGEL . >   If it took fifteen minutes ("fifteen minutes later the
screaming stops"), >then the gas concentration in the chamber was relatively
low. With minimal >ventilation, the workers starting to remove the bodies with
"no protective >clothing or respirators" poses no particular technical
problem.  .
    According to the descriptions of the gassing procedures I have read, after
the victims were closed in the gas chamber, the HCN was introduced by intro-
ducing the Zyclon-B pellets.  Since the initial concentration of HCN in the 
air would have been close to zero, the rate at which the HCN would have had to
evaporate would have had to been sufficient to kill in 15 minutes, which means
by the time the fifteen minutes were up the concentration of HCN would have to
be at a level high enough to kill much more quickly than that. Since the pel-
lets could not be turned off, they would continue to emit HCN raising the con-
centrations to an even higher level. Since gas would be trapped in lungs, be-
tween bodies, and in various pockets surrounded by corpses, the ventilation
problem is a major issue.  Those removing would be in grave danger of dying
after only a few moments of exposure to the interior of the gas chamber. Since
hauling the bodies out would be hard work the breathing of the sondern-
kommandos would be heavy from the exertion.  If you believe this "poses no
particular technical problem", perhaps you would be willing to put this to the
test by hauling, say, sacks of potatoes out of a room with an air
concentration of HCN adequate to kill in 15 minutes?
                               [Chigger]

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 695       Sun Apr 05, 1992
M.FEINS                      at 22:49 EDT
 
                   We Shall Always Remember

               1,500,000 small Jewish Children

             and ALL the children of other faiths

                            of

                      Blessed Memory

           that were indiscriminately slaughtered

          by the depraved animals of Nazi Holocaust

                    and their Nazi Masters

                     WE SHALL NEVER FORGET


 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 697       Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 22:59 EDT
 
 To John Stengel and others ---
 It occurs to me that I have been a bit remiss in that in discussing 
 the use of Zyklon B (and also HCN) for homicidal gassings, I assumed 
 that everyone knew of the difference between HCN and Zyklon B.
 .
 Zyklon B is a trade name for a commercial product that contains HCN. 
 Zyklon B comes in tins that are filled with a porous carrier 
 (typically wood pulp or diatomaceous earth) into which liquid HCN has 
 been introduced. This serves to make the HCN much more stable, and 
 eases handling requirements
 .
 As a side-effect, however, this packaging places some additional 
 restrictions on the use of Zyklon B. One of these is that, because 
 the HCN is relatively stable in this form, the ambient temperature 
 must be above 78.3 degrees F to promote any kind of realistic 
 propagation of the HCN gas. That is to say, when the temperature is 
 too low, the HCN will not gas off in a reasonable time, making 
 fumigation (or homicide) a very lengthy process indeed.
 .
 Note that no homicidal gas chambers here in the United States (or 
 anywhere else, for that matter) have ever used Zyklon B ... it is 
 simply too slow.
 .
 Furthermore, even with the right temperature, the relatively slow 
 propagation of the HCN gas from the Zyklon B pellets makes it 
 important to ensure there is air flow within the area to be fumigated 
 if the fumigation is to take place in anything like a reasonable 
 amount of time. (This addresses your 642, in which you state in part, 
 "considering the lethality of HCN (at low concentration) combined 
 with the high saturation point and low boiling temperature of HCN; 
 one could probably use a deep freezer room as a gas chamber!" This 
 statement may or may not be true for HCN gas, but to coax HCN gas out 
 of Zyklon B pellets certain conditions need to be met.)
 .
 At the correct temperature and with good air flow, fumigation takes 
 24 to 48 hours (or more), with ten or more hours of ventilation 
 afterwards.
 ---
 Consistent with this, imagine a situation in which there is a group 
 of people inside a room, and Zyklon B is introduced into the room 
 through a side window or through a roof vent, as has been alleged. 
 This method of introduction results in a poor distribution of the 
 Zyklon B pellets, so the propagation of the HCN gas will be uneven. 
 Thus, in areas close to the pellets the concentration of HCN gas in 
 the air by volume will approach 100 percent, while at places in the 
 room remote from the pellets it will approach 0 percent. Somewhere in 
 between the areas of 0 and 100 percent concentration, there might 
 very well exist any number of areas that have between 6 percent and 
 41 percent HCN gas by volume. This is the "window" of percentage by 
 volume during which HCN gas is explosive. A spark in any one of these 
 zones would result in an auto-catalyzing explosion of the HCN gas, 
 which means that the breaking of an electric light, the scuffing of a 
 shoe nail against a concrete floor, or a match could all cause a 
 disastrous explosion. Worse, any victim with a little preparation 
 would have several minutes to effect a spark due to the slow 
 evaporation time of HCN gas from Zyklon B, both from being at a 
 distance from the pellets and by the device of holding one's breath 
 as long as possible with replenishing air being breathed as close to 
 the floor as possible.
 ---
 Therefore, it is fine to speak of the generic properties of HCN gas, 
 but when it is packaged as Zyklon B there are additional properties 
 which must be taken into consideration.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 698       Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 22:59 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 636) ---
 > ... it would not be a "reasonable expectation" to find hydrocyanic 
 compounds present. Even though these compounds are MORE stable, there 
 is no reason to expect them to still be present 43 years later....
 .
 Fred Leuchter addresses this point in his Report. Under the heading, 
 "Forensic Considerations of HCN, Cyano-compounds and Crematories:"
 "... Cyanide and cyanide compounds may remain in a given location for 
 long periods of time and if they do not react with other chemicals 
 may migrate around in brick and mortar....
 "The control sample was removed from a delousing chamber in a 
 location where cyanide was known to have been used and was apparently 
 present as blue staining. Chemical testing of the control sample No. 
 32 showed a cyanide content of 1,050 mg/kg, a very heavy 
 concentration.
 "The conditions at areas from which these [31] samples were taken are 
 identical with those of the control sample: cold, dark and wet. Only 
 Kremas IV and V differed, in the respect that these locations had 
 sunlight ... and sunlight may hasten the destruction of uncomplexed 
 cyanide. The cyanide combines with iron in the mortar and brick and 
 becomes ferric-ferro-cyanide, or Prussian blue pigment, a very stable 
 iron-cyanide complex."
 .
 From this we see three things: 1) Mr. Leuchter was aware that the 
 evidence of the use of HCN gas under certain conditions can be 
 destroyed, and 2) in order to test the extent of that destruction, he 
 took a control sample from a typical environment, and 3) the heavily 
 positive reading of the control sample showed that other similar 
 samples should still show evidence of the use of HCN gas.
 ---
 > "It [HCN] has an acidulous character and produces salts called 
 cyanides when contacting with metals. Salts of alcalic metals such as 
 natrium and calcium, are dissolvable in water." (and etc.)
 .
 This I believe to be true, based on my conversations about this 
 matter with Fred Leuchter. However, Mr. Leuchter pointed out that the 
 reaction for which he was testing was not of that between HCN gas and 
 metal (that is, metallic objects), but rather of that between HCN gas 
 and metal ions, such as those found in the brick and mortar of the 
 alleged gas chambers. Therefore, if Mr. Leuchter had tested an iron 
 lighting fixture (for example) for evidence of the past use of HCN 
 gas, he would have had to contend with the problem of salts, weak 
 acids, etc. However, he was testing for something else entirely, that 
 being ferric-ferro-cyanides, which are far more stable and long 
 lasting.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 699       Sun Apr 05, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 23:00 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah ---
 Regarding the carbon copy of the Franke-Gricksch Resettlement Action 
 Report you claim to have reviewed:
 .
 Perhaps we can get more quickly to the bottom of this matter if you 
 can examine pages 236 through 239 of Pressac's book and tell me if 
 what similarities, if any, there are between what you find there and 
 the carbon copy you reviewed.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 700       Sun Apr 05, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 23:05 EDT
 
 694 J.WIER:

  > In the case of the Birkenau "gas chambers" the chemical which would
  > have formed after HCN condensed on the wall is Prussian Blue, aka 
  > ferric-ferro-cyanide after bonding with iron in the brick and mortar.

 According to the eminent Austrian chemist, Dr. Josef Bailer:

 "It is, howeeever, also unlikely that Prussian blue [i.e. ferric-ferro-
 cyanide] arose in the walls, because the iron in the bricks and in the burnt
 lime acted unfavorably for the reaction of the trivalent form [of iron] and
 because the alkaline environment hindered the reaction."

  > This [ferric-ferro-cyanide] compound is very stable.

 According to the Institute of Forensic Expertise in Krakow:

 "Much more durable are those complex compounds of cyanic ions amalgamating
 with heavy metals. Such one is the aforementioned Prussian Blue, but even it
 dissolved slowly in an aciduious environment. Under such circumstances it was
 a vain hope that after 45 years cyanide acid compounds could be found
 preserved in building material (plaster, brick) if exposed to the action of
 atmospheric forces such as aciduious rains and aciduious oxygenes, especially
 those of sulfurous and nitrogenous complexion. A better chance had the
 analysis of plaster taken from safe places, prtected from the action of
 precipitation (including aciduous rains)."

  > Since the walls of the "gas chambers" would have been continuously exposed
  > to HCN for about a year and a half during all kinds of weather, these
  > iron-cyanide compounds would have had ample opportunity to form. They
  > should still be there. Leutcher, and Poles at the Medico-Legal Institute
  > have shown they are not, at least, in any abundance.

 First, the walls of the gas chambers were not "continuously exposed" to HCN
 for a year and a half. Second, according to Dr. Bailer the iron-cyanide
 compounds would not have formed. Third, according to the Institute of
 Forensic Institute (i.e. the "Medico-Legal Institute" of which you spoke),
 these iron-cyanide compounds are not even in great abundance in the de-
 lousing facility which directly contradicts Leuchter.

 Leuchter's test result for the delousing chamber (i.e. his "control" sample)
 has a value so high it is unbelievable. This comment, BTW, is also made by
 Dr. Josef Bailer.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 701       Sun Apr 05, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 23:06 EDT
 
 694 J.WIER:

  > Since gas would be trapped in lungs, between bodies, and in various
  > pockets surrounded by corpses, the ventilation problem is a major issue.

 As far as gas trapped in lungs, dead people don't exhale. Therefore, there
 would be no danger inherent in that. Next, HCN has been used in places such
 as mills and granaries because it decomposes after a short time and leaves no
 residue behind. Also, HCN dissipates quickly when exposed to air which has
 lower (or no) HCN concentration. This would mean that any residual gas in the
 chamber would not adversely affect the Sonderkommandos.

 All of the above information comes from Dr. Josef Bailer's "The Leuchter
 Report from the View of a Chemist."

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 702       Sun Apr 05, 1992
C.FINK4 [Carl]               at 23:57 EDT
 
  Raven, your 698:  Leuchter is not an authority on chemistry, so quoting his
opinion on how long cyanides last in the environment is simply irrelevant. 
What do actual forensic chemists say?

  The so-called "control sample" was removed from a building that had never
been demolished, and (surprise!) had lost less of its cyanide content to
environmental factors like rain.  This wasn't obvious to you?

  The same compounds are produced by reacting HCN with elemental metals and
metal compounds (what you refer to as "metal ions" in the bricks and whatnot).
Strongly reactive metals ALWAYS react as ions. By the way, "natrium" is
sodium.

                                Carl Fink
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 703       Mon Apr 06, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 00:03 EDT
 
 697 Raven:

  > Zyklon B is a trade name for a commercial product that contains HCN. 
  > Zyklon B comes in tins that are filled with a porous carrier 
  > (typically wood pulp or diatomaceous earth) into which liquid HCN has 
  > been introduced. This serves to make the HCN much more stable, and 
  > eases handling requirements
  > .
  > As a side-effect, however, this packaging places some additional 
  > restrictions on the use of Zyklon B. One of these is that, because 
  > the HCN is relatively stable in this form, the ambient temperature 
  > must be above 78.3 degrees F to promote any kind of realistic 
  > propagation of the HCN gas. That is to say, when the temperature is 
  > too low, the HCN will not gas off in a reasonable time, making 
  > fumigation (or homicide) a very lengthy process indeed.


 Seeing as you have previously stated that the testimony of Rablin is
 reliable, let me quote from it:

 "....Since we were afraid of being bitten by the lice, we put the chisel, the
 hammer and the can of Zyclon-B ready in advance, opened it quickly and threw
 the substance on the floor. Despite the speed of this operation the lice
 jumped on our legs and to protect ourselves we spread a little Zyclon-B
 around our feet. Immediately, I could feel the lice drop off, dead. Sometimes
 at the moment when the gas evaporated, I tried to feel it by handling the
 crystals. They felt like velvet and were cool and damp...The gas was very
 dangerous for us. Before we closed the door and sealed it with strips of
 paper, a little of the gas would escape into the corridor. Apart from us two
 who were protected by gas masks, the rest did not have any."

 It seems, then, that Zyklon-B is not nearly as "stable" as what you make it
 seem.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 704       Mon Apr 06, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 00:04 EDT
 
 697 Raven:

  > At the correct temperature and with good air flow, fumigation takes 
  > 24 to 48 hours (or more), with ten or more hours of ventilation 
  > afterwards.

 Since "fumigation" refers to various vermin and not people, it is irrelevant
 in this discussion. After all, the concentration of HCN that is necessary
 (and the length of time necessary) to exterminate virtually every pest other
 than mosquitos is much higher than what is needed to kill humans.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 705       Mon Apr 06, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 00:05 EDT
 
 697 Raven:

  > This method of introduction results in a poor distribution of the 
  > Zyklon B pellets, so the propagation of the HCN gas will be uneven. 
  > Thus, in areas close to the pellets the concentration of HCN gas in 
  > the air by volume will approach 100 percent, while at places in the 
  > room remote from the pellets it will approach 0 percent.

 HCN disperses quickly in surrounding air. That is one of the reasons it can
 be vented to the outside without risk to those any distance away. Therefore,
 your assumption that the concentration would fluctuate in such a manner is
 illogical.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 706       Mon Apr 06, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 00:05 EDT
 
 698 Raven:

  > Fred Leuchter addresses this point in his Report. Under the heading, 
  > "Forensic Considerations of HCN, Cyano-compounds and Crematories:"
  > "... Cyanide and cyanide compounds may remain in a given location for 
  > long periods of time and if they do not react with other chemicals 
  > may migrate around in brick and mortar....

 From Dr. Josef Bailer's analysis of the Leuchter Report:

 "Against this hypothesis in the Leuchter report, it is unlikely that
 bydrocyanic gas would remain in the pores of the walls because light, lime
 and water or dampness would have destroyed it. ... Apart from this, the
 Leuchter report only suggests, but never actually maintains, that this kind
 of cyanide residue had been found."

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 707       Mon Apr 06, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 00:06 EDT
 
 698 Raven:

  > "The control sample was removed from a delousing chamber in a 
  > location where cyanide was known to have been used and was apparently 
  > present as blue staining. Chemical testing of the control sample No. 
  > 32 showed a cyanide content of 1,050 mg/kg, a very heavy 
  > concentration.

 Once again, from Dr. Josef Bailer:

 "The cyanide concentrations for residuals shown in the Leuchter report are
 too high to be believable. A concentration of 1050 mg/kg, which is given for
 the 'control' sample would mean that the wall consisted of 0.1% Prussian
 blue! This is to be traced back to either an error in analysis or an error in
 sample collection. ... Prussian blue is a very widespread coloring material
 that is to be found in great quantities on old walls as a residue of old
 painting or as a stain of color that some kind of material that once leaned
 against this wall left behind..... At least in the case of the 'control'
 sample the sample consisted almost exlusively of painting that adhered to the
 top of the plaster."

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 708       Mon Apr 06, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 00:07 EDT
 
 698 Raven:

  > This I believe to be true, based on my conversations about this 
  > matter with Fred Leuchter. However, Mr. Leuchter pointed out that the 
  > reaction for which he was testing was not of that between HCN gas and 
  > metal (that is, metallic objects), but rather of that between HCN gas 
  > and metal ions, such as those found in the brick and mortar of the 
  > alleged gas chambers.

 Apparently you are trying to make a distinction without the existence of a
 difference. Iron atoms are iron atoms whether they occur solely on the
 microscopic level (i.e. atoms within brick and mortar) or also on the
 macroscopic level (i.e. metal object).

 I really hope that Fred Leuchter didn't tell you this and that you only came
 to this conclusion on your own. Otherwise, Leuchter is less knowledgeable
 than what I had supposed.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 710       Mon Apr 06, 1992
B.EATON2 [BZE]               at 00:54 EDT
 
To Hans-Peter re #691

You are adopting the Raven/Rungu tactic of quibbling over minor pts. I have
asked them, and now you, to present some kind of evidence showing that the
Holcaust did NOT happen.  Pooh.Bah has presented documents, etc. showing that
it did happen. It is up to those who refuse to accept its existence to
disprove those documents, eyewitnesses, etc. If you cannot show that these
things are false, then you must admit what is known: 6 million Jews died in
Europe between 1933-1945, most as a result of a deliberate policy of
extermination.

The Nazis left a chilling paper trail of their intentions and their actions. 
Even if you feel that you can discount some of it, the weight of the evidence
is overwhelming.

It has been many years since I read Speer's book, but I still remember him
complaining very late in the war, that he had trouble getting railroad cars
for the essential war material he was responsible for producing because
Eichmann was using them to transport Jews to concentration camps.  Even with
Gotterdamerung upon them, they were still concerned with their extermination
of the Jews.

It is almost impossible to believe that supposedly civilized men could behave
in such an inhumane manner and, therefore, all the accounts of the atrocities
must be mistaken.  But they were not 'civilized men.'  Lord Acton said it a
long time ago.  "All power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely."  The
Nazis, corrupted by the absolute power they held for a time over most of
Europe, ran amok.  They divorced themselves from human feelings and cold-
bloodedly murdered more than the Jewish 6 million.


 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 711       Mon Apr 06, 1992
J.STENGEL [John]             at 01:34 EDT
 
---->J.WEIR9 Message 694     
    .
    >If you believe this "poses no particular technical problem",
    > perhaps you would be willing to put this to the test by hauling,
    >say, sacks of potatoes out of a room with an air concentration
    >of HCN adequate to kill in 15 minutes?
   .
   Whoa! Now here's a guy who really challenges me to put up or shut up!
Actually, if you really thought it would harm me, would you dare me to  such a
stunt??? No, I definitely would not do so in "a room with an air 
concentration of HCN adequate to kill in 15 minutes"...my whole point on my
post you cite is that with elementary ventilation, the chamber no longer
contains "concentration of HCN adequate to kill in 15 minutes". When the doors
were CLOSED the HCN concentration WAS adequate to kill in 15 minutes.  Now, if
the doors were opened and the air in the chamber was "changed", AND the volume
of the room outside the chamber was several times greater than the volume of
the chamber...so that the concentration of
 HCN is lowered to a point  "adequate to kill" in maybe a couple hours,  AND
you held a gun to my head and said I had no choice...well, I guess  I'd haul
the potatoes (and  although I'm not ASOLUTELY certain), I'd PROBABLY  live to
report my experience back here on Genie!  I'm not a chemist, I have  only
rudimentary knowledge of the subject.  The post you cite, and challenge  me
on, is  basically  my common sense (IMHO) application of fundamental 
chemistry principles to this problem...sorry if I am not so totally confident
in my conclusions as to (willingly) literally bet my life on it (I have a
family to raise)! 
   .
   >Since the initial concentration of HCN in the  air would have been 
   >close to zero, the rate at which the HCN would have had to evaporate 
   >would have had to been sufficient to kill in 15 minutes, which means 
   >by the time the fifteen minutes were up the concentration of HCN would 
   >have to be at a level high enough to kill much more quickly than that. 
   >Since the pel- lets could not be turned off, they would continue to 
   >emit HCN raising the con- centrations to an even higher level.
   .
   J.Weir, you issued me a challenge, now I'll give you one...a simple
experiment.  Go into a fairly large room.  You go to one side of the  room. 
Have a friend go to a spot as far away as possible from you and open a bottle
of perfume and pour some in a bowl...use a stopwatch to time  how long it
takes for you to smell the perfume.  Assuming you're not doing the experiment
in an airplane hanger, you will probably smell the perfume in less than 2
minutes...the point is that gases tend to  diffuse very rapidly and uniformly
throughout a container.
   .
   As to your point "since the pellets could not be turned off, they  would
continue to emit HCN raising the concentrations to an even higher
level"...Since the volume of the chamber would be known, it would be  a simple
matter to calculate the exact mass of pellets, which completely evaporated,
will raise the concentration to the exact desired level;  no more, no less. 
There is no need to "turn the pellets off".  It is my understanding that these
(Zyklon) pellets evaporate very rapidly. 
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 712       Mon Apr 06, 1992
J.STENGEL [John]             at 01:38 EDT
 
----->G.RAVEN [Greg Raven] Message 697: 
   .
   >As a side-effect, however, this packaging places some additional 
   >restrictions on the use of Zyklon B. One of these is that, because 
   >the HCN is relatively stable in this form, the ambient temperature 
   >must be above 78.3 degrees F to promote any kind of realistic 
   >propagation of the HCN gas. That is to say, when the temperature is 
   >too low, the HCN will not gas off in a reasonable time, making 
   >fumigation (or homicide) a very lengthy process indeed.
   .
   Well, we do agree that the lethal ingredient in ZyklonB is HCN. As far as
activating the Zyklon (getting it to release HCN), I think what you are saying
is that only the ZyklonB pellets themselves must be  heated to 78.3 degrees
F...not necessarily the the entire area into which  they are to release HCN. 
I could propose any of a number of ways to  do that very easily...place the
can in hot water for a few minutes  before opening...enough heat energy would
be absorbed by the pellets  to ensure their rapid and complete evaporation
once released from the can (regardless of the ambient temperature of the area
into which the pellets are placed).

   .
  >Furthermore, even with the right temperature, the relatively slow 
  >propagation of the HCN gas from the Zyklon B pellets makes it 
  >important to ensure there is air flow within the area to be fumigated 
  >if the fumigation is to take place in anything like a reasonable 
  >amount of time. (This addresses your 642, in which you state in part, 
  >"considering the lethality of HCN (at low concentration) combined 
  >with the high saturation point and low boiling temperature of HCN; 
  >one could probably use a deep freezer room as a gas chamber!" This 
  >statement may or may not be true for HCN gas, but to coax HCN gas out 
  >of Zyklon B pellets certain conditions need to be met.) 
   .
   Yes, I agree, when used for fumigation purposes the air flow is  important.
Fumigating a building though (presumably with many different  rooms, hallways,
nooks and crannies), is far different than simply  releasing the gas in one
single room (with no architectural barriers). In the single room (or gas
chamber) scenario;  once present, the  gas diffuses rapidly and uniformly
throughout the volume of the room.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 713       Mon Apr 06, 1992
E.BROWN42 [scaramouche]      at 01:42 EDT
 
Wouldn't the chemical reaction of Zyklon-B with acid be enough to raise it's
temperature over 79F?
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 714       Mon Apr 06, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 04:19 EDT
 
 To All ---
 As most of you may have either read or guessed, I use a Macintosh to 
 conduct this discussion on GEnie, which means I am not using Aladdin. 
 I don't know what Aladdin does for those who use it, but I assume it 
 is something wonderful.
 .
 At any rate, in order to read and then respond to these messages I 
 must do a considerable number of find-and-replace operations to 
 "clean up" the text and get it in a presentable form (my typos 
 aside!). It would help me immensely if everyone could set his 
 communications program to 70 or 75 characters screen width. The 
 longer lines wrap around my (narrow) screen and are a real pain to 
 work with.
 .
 Thanks.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 715       Mon Apr 06, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 04:19 EDT
 
 To Scaramouche (regarding 673) ---
 > As a resident of the budget-conscious state of Missouri, I can 
 assure you that there is no "new gas chamber" in the state. The old 
 chamber in the Jefferson City prison was considered for 
 reconditioning, but lethal injection was chosen for reasons of 
 cost-effectiveness, among others. Leuchter MIGHT have tried to sell 
 the state a design for a new gas chamber, but given his lack of 
 credentials, it was most probably a "no-go". Scaramouche
 .
 I didn't say there was a new gas chamber. As Leuchter himself points 
 out in his Report, gassing by HCN is the most expensive method due to 
 all the complexities involved in doing it right. It is entirely 
 possible that Missouri looked at the cost and gave it a pass. This 
 does not change whether or not Mr. Leuchter designed a new facility 
 for them, however, and it does not, as you imply, reflect on his 
 credentials. In fact, were it not for Missouri warden Bill Armontrout 
 giving Mr. Leuchter the nod as the only expert in the field of 
 execution equipment, the Zuendel defense team might not have 
 contacted Leuchter. Mr. Leuchter's accomplishments show that he is 
 more than qualified as an engineer.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 716       Mon Apr 06, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 04:20 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 675) ---
 We may be losing sight of the fact that the tests for CN compounds is 
 only one component of the Leuchter Report. Mr. Leuchter admits that 
 there were cases in which he could not take samples. We really should 
 be examining the entire report before passing judgment. For example, 
 we know that some of the buildings have been rebuilt, modified, etc., 
 even though the Auschwitz Museum does not admit to all the 
 alterations that have been performed. What is important here is that 
 the reconstructions (and etc.) are claimed to be exact duplicates of 
 the original buildings, even in cases where there do not seem to be 
 any original documents to back up these claims.
 .
 This leaves us with two choices: 1) Either the buildings really are 
 exact duplicates ... and Leuchter was correct about their 
 inadequacies as "gas chambers," or 2) the buildings are false in at 
 least some degree, and there is no way of knowing what the truth ... 
 which leads us back to my statement that there is no evidence.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 717       Mon Apr 06, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 04:20 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 676) ---
 > Use of "lbs.": I admit that this is not in the original 
 [Franke-Gricksch Resettlement Action Report] but is part of the 
 translation. Just as I have translated the degrees C into F for HCN, 
 I have also translated the kg into lbs to allow easier understanding 
 for an American audience.
 .
 This is becoming VERY interesting. Your copy of the F-G Resettlement 
 Action Report makes reference to KILOGRAMS of coke? Fabulous. It 
 truly is difficult to contain my excitement at learn this, especially 
 in light of your first mention of this document, in which you said: 
 "The above document has been translated as is. Nothing has been added 
 to it. All comments in () appear in the original document...also in 
 ()."
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 718       Mon Apr 06, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 04:21 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 680) ---
 > You do grant the possibility that it might be barely warm enough 
 for HCN to be in a totally gaseous state. However, I supplied the 
 proof that it was way above the temperature needed on certain 
 days....
 .
 Actually I grant much more than that. However, we are dealing with 
 the death by Zyklon B of hundreds of thousands of individuals. This 
 is OBVIOUSLY something that did not happen only on balmy summer days. 
 This must have been a year-round activity for quite awhile. If it 
 could only take place a few months out of the year, then all the 
 averages (people per gassing, crematoria capacity, barracks capacity, 
 etc.) are knocked into a cocked hat. I don't have ready access to the 
 day-by-day weather for the years 1942 through 1944 in the Auschwitz 
 area, but I'll bet a quarter that there were plenty of days below 78 
 degrees F. The Holocaust story seems to be "running out of time."
 ---
 > As far as the lack of heaters in the gas chambers, I assume that 
 you mean of the inorganic type. After all, there were about 300 naked 
 human bodies which would have produced around 3900 BTU. That is more 
 than enough to heat that small space.
 .
 I might be more inclined to accept this (compound) statement were it 
 backed up by a reference. I know from personal experience that as a 
 cold room fills with people, the temperature rises. But it usually 
 takes more than a minute, and I don't remember any of the so-called 
 eyewitness testimony or the confessions stating that they would load 
 up the "gas chambers," wait until the temperature rose to the right 
 level, and then dropped in the pellets. Can you cite some?
 .
 While we are on the topic, I need to know where you got the figure of 
 300 bodies, how your calculated the BTU output, and to what space you 
 are referring. It sounds as if you are referring to one single "gas 
 chamber," in which case I would need to know which of the so-called 
 gas chambers you think actually was a "gas chamber" and which were 
 not.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 719       Mon Apr 06, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 04:21 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 681) ---
 > When Armontrout was on the stand, the gas chamber had yet to be 
 installed. According to Scaramouche's 673, it still has yet to be 
 installed. Therefore, without the gas chamber present, it would have 
 been impossible to have conducted tests.
 .
 You have in previously posts made reference to page 353 of Lenski's 
 book on the second Zuendel trial (funny, isn't it, that this is but a 
 half-page of text and it has borne the bulk of our references to this 
 tome!). In the paragraph at the bottom of the page, we read:
 "Armontrout described for the court, with the aid of slides, the 
 incredibly complex business of conducting a lethal gassing. He noted 
 that 38 people 'are closely involved on-site' in such an operation in 
 Missouri, while more than 200 participate indirectly."
 .
 Furthermore, we have it on the authority of Scaramouche (who claims 
 to be from Missouri, and may even be able to do the fandango), that:
 > A point of fact, to my knowledge Missouri has not gassed anyone 
 since 1965. When the death penalty was revived here in 1989, the gas 
 chamber had so deteriorated as to make gassing impossible without 
 reconditioning the seals (a very expensive proposition). [post 269]
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 720       Mon Apr 06, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 04:22 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 682) ---
 > I'm glad that you agree that Rablin is believable....
 .
 I did not say I found him believable, but that to the extent that his 
 testimony reflects events that are not impossible, he becomes more 
 valuable. As we shall soon see, his value is extremely limited.
 ---
 > After all, his total account is fascinating in light of your 
 insistence that all methods of entry for HCN are equally dangerous 
 (i.e. inhalation, ingestion, through contact with the skin).
 .
 I am not insisting that all three methods of HCN poison are equally 
 dangerous. I was quoting from the DEGESCH manual, in order to show 
 than skin poisoning is not only possible, but a real hazard.
 ---
 > Let's look at his account of how he helped delouse clothing:
 > "We put on our gas masks and went in the room naked or wearing 
 underpants.... When we went in to spread the gas, the lice jumped on 
 us and the layers disappeared very fast....Since we were afraid of 
 being bitten by the lice, we put the chisel, the hammer and the can 
 of Zyklon-B ready in advance, opened it quickly and threw the 
 substance on the floor.
 .
 Oops! Errors. I will overlook the account of going in naked rather 
 than become bogged down in a pointless discussion. However, it is 
 well known that there were special can openers for the Zyklon B ... a 
 purpose-built tool ... and it looks nothing like a hammer and/or a 
 chisel.
 ---
 Despite the speed of this operation the lice jumped on our legs and 
 to protect ourselves we spread a little Zyklon-B around our feet. 
 Immediately, I could feel the lice drop off, dead. Sometimes at the 
 moment when the gas evaporated, I tried to feel it by handling the 
 crystals.
 .
 Error alert! Handling the crystals would have been extremely 
 dangerous. All the manuals call for chemical suits, rubber gloves, 
 and special gas masks (not just any old gas mask will do). Rablin 
 must have an interesting physiognomy if he is able to run his hands 
 through Zyklon B without harm, yet be susceptible to a slight leak in 
 his gas mask.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 721       Mon Apr 06, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 04:22 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 683) ---
 > Then please review your message 885 in TOPic 4. [as proof that you 
 have called the Holocaust story the ONE single area of history which 
 is MOST rife with historical error]
 .
 Well, I looked before posting my 659 and I looked again after reading 
 your 683, and I gotta tell ya that I can't see that I used the word 
 rife in that post, or singled out the Holocaust story. 
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 722       Mon Apr 06, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 04:23 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 684) ---
 One of us is losing it. You claim that when I stated that I consider 
 300,000 Jews a large number of Jews (in 661) that I was in conflict 
 with my post of 572 when I called the 300,000 Jews in the lands ceded 
 to Russia a "large number of Jews."
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 723       Mon Apr 06, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 04:23 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 686) ---
 > Sorry that I had assumed that you had at least ONE unabridged 
 version of Hilberg. So, are you saying that you have TWO copies of 
 Hilberg and they are BOTH the single volume abridged versions?
 .
 According to Hilberg's preface in the 1961 version, this is his first 
 work, begun in 1948 (my edition is in paperback, Quadrangle Books). 
 My other copy is the abridged student version from 1985. What you 
 seem to be saying is that Hilberg has not one three-volume set, but 
 two. No wonder he wrote about the Holocaust for 18 years before he 
 visited Auschwitz for the first time, and then for only one day ... 
 he was so busy writing and rewriting this book he never had the time 
 to get out!
 ---
 > Let's go over the Hilberg's figures again.
 .
 Let's not. I merely wanted to make the point that in spite of the 
 work Hilberg has done in this area, demographics for this area in 
 this era are tricky, and even Hilberg's figures cannot be accepted as 
 absolute. I believe we both agree on this point.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 724       Mon Apr 06, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 04:23 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 688) ---
 You reposted an earlier statement of yours that reads:
 >> Weber regretted Rassinier's shortcomings, but emphasized his 
 reliability
 >> about subjects of which he had first-hand knowledge, such as the
 >> Buchenwald and Dora camps.
 .
 To my mind, the phrase that starts "such as" does not limit 
 Rassinier's reliability to only Buchenwald and Dora. To me they 
 represent examples of some of the areas in which Rassinier is 
 reliable, and there may be others. As it turns out, Rassinier states 
 that he is an expert at analyzing documents. Are you denying he is, 
 or are you trying to say that because Mr. Weber did not specifically 
 mention Mr. Rassinier's reliability in this matter, we can not 
 consider it to be so?
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 725       Mon Apr 06, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 04:24 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 689) ---
 > Therefore, I would probably translate it [the German phrase] as 
 "camp of extermination" but a translation of "camp of annihilation" 
 means the same thing and is equally acceptable.
 .
 And, because "camp of extermination" means about the same as 
 "extermination camp," why not really shorten it up and say 
 "extermination camp," right?
 .
 Two reasons. First, because that is not what Kremer allegedly wrote. 
 Second, Kremer was a native German speaker, was he not? He certainly 
 could have used the "vernichtungslager" construction if that is what 
 he had meant, couldn't he? Third, condensing and changing things as 
 you have described hides from me (and others) what was actually said, 
 which in effect helps make up my mind about something without my 
 being aware of the influence. And fourth, as Rassinier says, 
 mistranslations such as this do "violence to the meaning of the 
 text."
 ---
 By the way, when I want to get rid of roaches in my house, I call the 
 exterminator, not the annihilator. Although the words may be somewhat 
 similar, they can hardly be said to be everywhere interchangeable.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 726       Mon Apr 06, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 04:24 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 690) ---
 > Does this mean that after your many phone conversations with Fred 
 Leuchter, you believe that he would NOT be alienated by the idea of 
 mass produced executions?
 .
 Now I will have to again ask that you not misquote me, and from 
 casting further aspersions on the character of Mr. Leuchter. You know 
 perfectly well that we were discussing the technique of mass 
 executions, not the moral implications.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 727       Mon Apr 06, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 04:25 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 693) ---
 > The memorial is at Auschwitz I and Krema I there has been restored.
 .
 According to the Leuchter Report:
 "The drawing ... of Krema I ... shows a morgue of some 7,680 cubic 
 feet with two doorways, neither door opening externally. One doorway 
 opened into the crematory and the other into the washroom. 
 Apparently, neither opening had a door, but this was not verifiable 
 since one wall had been removed and one opening had been moved.
 "It should be noted that the official Auschwitz State Museum 
 guidebooks says that the building physically remains in the same 
 condition as it was on liberation day on January 27, 1945."
 .
 There seems to be some difference of opinion here.
 ---
 > However, Krema II, III, IV and V at Auschwitz II 
 (Auschwitz-Birkenau) have not been restored.
 .
 According to the Leuchter Report, Kremas II and III were in a state 
 of disrepair, but there were still major portions available for 
 examination. Kremas IV and V were "razed long ago," leaving only the 
 "foundation or floor." Plans purporting to be of these two buildings 
 are available.
 ---
 > Also, the two houses that were originally used have not been 
 restored to their condition when the Nazis occupied the area.
 .
 According to the Leuchter Report, Bunker I is missing completely and 
 Bunker II has been "restored and utilized as a private residence." 
 (!)
 ---
 > As far as your calculations on how many times the gas chambers were 
 used, you are apparently operating on the assumption of a single gas 
 chamber. There were gas chambers in two houses plus Krema I-V. So, if 
 all 1.1 million were gassed (which wasn't the case) and there were 
 300 per gassing and each chamber was used an equal number of times 
 (which also wasn't the case) that would mean that each chamber was 
 used about 523 times.
 .
 You seem to be working on the assumption that all these "gas 
 chambers" were working simultaneously when in fact they weren't, 
 which you must realize. To take just one example, Kremas IV and V 
 were built last, but the construction was so poor that they were only 
 used sporadically for a short while and then shut down and razed. Now 
 the Holocaust story is running out of room, too.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 728       Mon Apr 06, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 04:25 EDT
 
 To J.Weir (regarding 694) ---
 From the looks of your message, you are having the same problem I had 
 when I first joined GEnie. Try this, after uploading your message 
 (*U), type *SN at the beginning of a line. That tells GEnie not to 
 format your text but to leave it the way you entered it. Hope this 
 works for you.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 729       Mon Apr 06, 1992
E.BROWN42 [scaramouche]      at 05:03 EDT
 
Greg,

If you bother to type in my GEnie ID at the mail directory, you will find that
I am indeed from Missouri, although I do not do the fandango. The only gas
chamber in this state is the old one in the Jefferson City, MO state
penitentiary, the one used to execute Heady and Hall, the Bobby Greenlease
kidnappers in 1953, among others. It had not been used since 1965, and when
the death penalty was revived in the state, lethal injection was chosen as the
means of execution, following a nationwide trend, since , among other reasons,
the seals of the chamber had deteriorated to the point that it would have been
a positive danger to witnesses and prison official to use without an expensive
reconditioning of the seals. There is no "new gas chamber" in Missouri, either
designed by Leuchter or anyone else.

("officials to use")

Scaramouche
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 730       Mon Apr 06, 1992
TERMY                        at 06:06 EDT
 
In reply to:  Message 645  G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]

-> With the exception of the Tauber verdict, which is neither here
 ->nor   there, you seem to have made reference to documents
 ->concerned with   the Einsatzgruppen.

The point concerning the Taubner verdict is simple:  the SS and Police Supreme
Court stated in this verdict that the Jews have to be exterminated.  I would
invite comment from any lawyers present concerning the implications of a high
court's statement to that effect.

->I have already agreed that there were some   atrocities there.
 ->However, there were mitigating factors (such as the   guerrilla-
 ->style warfare taking place in these regions), and the short
 ->existence of the Einsatzgruppen hardly translates into a program
 ->of   genocide. Please refer again to my message 169.

The EK 3 report stands in stark contrast to your assertions, for several
reasons:

1.  Multiple entries show Jewish children being killed.  Is there any reason
to supposed babes at breast were conducting guerilla operations?

2.  One entry (dated 17.7.41, town of Babtei) shows 8 Communists were executed
at that place on that day, and specifically states that 6 of the 8 were
Jewish.

3.  2.8.41, Kauen-Fort IV entry shows one US Jew, one US Jewess being killed. 
We were not at war with Germany at that time.

4.  The report differentiates between Communists and Jews (and Jewish
communists), between Poles and Jews, between Lithuanians and Jews, Russians
and Jews, POWs and Jews, Gypsies and Jews, a German female (married to a Jew),
Communists and non-Communists, partisans, adults, children, male, female,
NKVD, Politruks, mayors, murderers, thieves, robbers, mentally insane...and
the "superfluous Jews" in the ghetto (see 28.10.41, Kauen-Fort IX entry).

5.  The "discussion" at the conclusion of the citation of figures states that
the intent was to kill all Jews, but some were needed for skilled labor.

6.  The "discussion" details the methodology used to execute large numbers of
people.

For reference, the report may be found beginning with post #244.

----------

Re Rassiner's interpretation of Kremer's diary:  Roget's Thesaurus lists
"exterminate" as synonymous with "annihilate", and vice versa.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 731       Mon Apr 06, 1992
TERMY                        at 06:09 EDT
 
 Below is reproduced as exactly as possible a photocopy of 
 Bunesarchiv, Koblenz document #NS 19/291, a report from the 
 Reichsfuehrer-SS (Himmler) to Hitler.  Limitations of this medium 
 requires the "americanization" of certain letters, but the text is, 
 letter for letter, as faithful to the photocopy as possible.  The text 
 states this was typed on a special "Fuehrer-typewriter", a typewriter 
 with large type. 

 Attention is directed to entry 2c, "Juden exekutiert".

 ---------

                    (-NO 3392-
                    (-NO 511-)[1]
                                                 [2] 31/12 [3]
 Der Reichsfuehrer-SS                            Feld-Kommandostelle'
                                                 den 29 Dezember 1942

 Retr.[4]:  Weldungen an den Fuehrer ueber
            Bendenbekaempfung.                                [5]

            W e l d u n g Wr. 51
            --------------------
            Russland-Sued, Ukraine, Bialystok.
            ----------------------------------
            Bandenbakaempfungserfolge vom1.9. bis 1.12.1942
            -----------------------------------------------

 1.) Banditen:
    ---------
    a) festgestellte Tote nach Gefechten (x)
         August:    September:   Oktober:    November:   insgesamt:
         -------    ----------   --------    ---------   ----------
          227         381         427          302         1337
    b) Gefangene sofort exekuitiert
          125         282          87          243          737
    c) Gefange nach laengerer eingehender Vernehmung
       exekutiert
         2100        1400        1596         2731         7828

 2.) Bandenhelfer und Bandenverdaechtige:
    ------------------------------------
    a)  festgenommen
         1343        3078        8337         3795        16553
    b)  exekutiert
         1198        3020        6333         3706        14257
    c)  Juden exekutiert
        31246      165282       95735        70948       363211

 3.) Ueberlaeufer a.G. deutscher Propaganda:
     ---------------------------------------
           21          14          42           63          140
 (x) Da der Russe seine Gefallenen verschleppt
     bzw.sofort verscharrt, sind die Verlustzahlen
     auch nach Gefangenenaussagen erhablich hoeher
     zu bewerten.
                                                 [6]
                                                 Bundesarchiv 318 [7]
                                                 NS 19/291 [8]
                                                                 V.69[9]

 ---------

 [1] Handwritten
 [2] Handwritten, illegible in my photocopy, see [3]
 [3] "31/12" handwritten date 31 Dec., followed by handwriting 
 illegible in my photocopy.  Text states [2] and [3] to be handwritten 
 acknowledgement that the report was submitted to Hitler on 31 Dec, 
 1942 in the handwriting of his adjutant Pfeiffer.
 [4] First letter illegible in photocopy.
 [5] Handwriting, illegible.
 [6] Illegible, first part of Bundesarchiv stamp.
 [7] "318" stamped, different stamping, clarity from the Bundesarchiv 
 stamp.
 [8] Handwritten, Bundesarchiv reference number
 [9] Handwritten

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 732       Mon Apr 06, 1992
D.BRIN1                      at 06:59 EDT
 
Mr. Raven:  What is the value of Mr. Leuchter's "control" samples when he
fails to acknowledge that the delousing chambers would have been exposed to
much higher levels of HCN than the human gas chambers?  When these delousing
chambers were exposed to many hours of gassing during each use?

This failure to note the different doses required to kill lice, as   opposed
to human beings, makes the whole enterprise meaningless.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 733       Mon Apr 06, 1992
GRAFFITI [Ric Helton]        at 08:46 EDT
 
[2 messages moved to topic 4]
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 734       Mon Apr 06, 1992
TERMY                        at 08:58 EDT
 
 A memo dated 14 November, 1941.

 ----

 re:  Conferment of the Kriegsverdienstkreuz [KVK-"war service cross"] 
 re:  My telegram to you, no. 2719, of 14 Nov. 1941.

 The Commandant's Office has submitted to date two lists recommending 
 the conferment of the Kriegsverdienstkreuz.  In both of these appear 
 SS personnel who participated in executions.  We herewith request 
 confirmation as to whether these names should be listed once again in 
 the roll currently under preparation.  Further requested is 
 information as to whether in the recommendations lists under "Reasons 
 and Comments of Immediate Superior" there should be specified, 
 "Execution, i.e., special action" or whether a general, routine reason 
 should be given.

                                 The Camp Commandant
                                 Signed, Roedl
                                 SS Obersturmbannfuehrer


 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 735       Mon Apr 06, 1992
TERMY                        at 08:59 EDT
 
 On 30 Nov., 1941, the acting inspector of the concentration camps, SS-
 Obersturmbannfuehrer Liebehenschel answered the previous memo thusly:

 In the lists of recommendations for the conferment of the KVK to SS 
 members who participated in the executions, under the "reasons" enter 
 "completion of vital war assignments."  The word "execution" should 
 under no circumstances be mentioned.  In the lists to be handed in, 
 the names already cited should be cited once again.

                                 I.V. [by order of the Chief Inspector] 
                                 Signed, Liebenschel
                                 SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 736       Mon Apr 06, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 18:06 EDT
 
 715 Raven:

  > This does not change whether or not Mr. Leuchter designed a new facility 
  > for them, however, and it does not, as you imply, reflect on his 
  > credentials.

 First, what proof is there (other than Leuchter's word) that he did indeed
 "design" a gas chamber for Missouri? Second, if he only designed it but never
 constructed it, how does he (or do we) know that his design would work as a
 gas chamber? Third, since this is, by his own admission, the only gas chamber
 that he has designed or had any involvement with, it does place into question
 his "expertise" on the question of gas chambers.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 737       Mon Apr 06, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 18:06 EDT
 
 715 Raven:

  > This leaves us with two choices: 1) Either the buildings really are 
  > exact duplicates ... and Leuchter was correct about their 
  > inadequacies as "gas chambers," or 2) the buildings are false in at 
  > least some degree, and there is no way of knowing what the truth ... 
  > which leads us back to my statement that there is no evidence.

 There are many more possibilities than that, Raven. For instance, there is a
 distinct possibility that Leuchter doesn't know about what he's speaking!
 But, even leaving that to one side, only Krema I has been reconstructed. That
 still leaves Krema II-V and the two houses. Krema I, being at Auschwitz I,
 was part of the head camp and not the extermination camp (Auschwitz II or
 Auschwitz-Birkenau).

 As far as evidence, there is more evidence concerning the Holocaust than for
 almost any other event in history. For every other historical event,
 eyewitness accounts, written documents, letters, diaries, memoirs, etc. are
 all accepted without question. Yet, the Holocaust is held to a different
 standard. Why do you suppose that is, Greg?

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 738       Mon Apr 06, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 18:07 EDT
 
 717 Raven:

  > It truly is difficult to contain my excitement at learn this, especially 
  > in light of your first mention of this document, in which you said: 
  > "The above document has been translated as is. Nothing has been added 
  > to it. All comments in () appear in the original document...also in 
  > ()."

 There is no contradiction here. For instance, if a document in German speaks
 of 1 kg., there is nothing wrong in translating that to 2.2 lbs. The meaning
 is still the same. No document is translated word-for-word from German to
 English. If it were, it would be difficult (if not impossible) for an English
 speaker to understand the document. Why? German grammatical structure is very
 dissimilar to ours.....most of the verbs go at the end of the sentence and
 there are separable prefix verbs. Let me give you an example:

   Ich bringe mein Mann mit.

 This translates to: 

   I bring my husband with 

 (word for word leaving the "with" as the preposition that ends the sentence.
 This is not correct English grammar and, in fact, the verb is "mitbringen"
 but has a separable prefix.)

 Now, let's take another separable prefix verb and see what happens.

   Ich bringe mein Mann um.

 There has only been one change. The verb is "umbringen" and not "mitbringen"
 and both the "um" and the "mit" go at the end of the sentence. Yet, there is
 no way that this sentence can be translated word-for-word with an English
 word to represent each German word. Why? "Umbringen" translates to kill, slay
 or murder!

 As I stated before, I added nothing to the translation of the F-G report.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 739       Mon Apr 06, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 18:08 EDT
 
 718 Raven:

  > I might be more inclined to accept this (compound) statement were it 
  > backed up by a reference. I know from personal experience that as a 
  > cold room fills with people, the temperature rises. ... While we are on
  > the topic, I need to know where you got the figure of 300 bodies, how your
  > calculated the BTU output, and to what space you are referring. It sounds
  > as if you are referring to one single "gas chamber," in which case I would
  > need to know which of the so-called gas chambers you think actually was a
  > "gas chamber" and which were not.


 Actually, this is a simple calculation. A human body at rest generates an
 average of 3500 kcal. In the gas chamber, there was exertion which would
 increase this heat output but these people were often times undernourished,
 too, which would decrease the amount of heat they could generate. Therefore,
 it is not unreasonable to accept the average resting heat output as that for
 the undernourished exertion figure.

 Now, one BTU is 252 kcal. From the F-G report we get the figure of 300-400
 people per gas chamber. There are other documents which range as low as 250
 and as high as 450. However, for purposes of this calculation, I selected the
 300 person figure because it is the one mention most often.

 This means that each person generated 13.88 BTU. No matter which number of
 persons you select, you can do your own multiplication.

 As far as the length of time necessary for the gas chamber to heat, if heat
 is added to a gas (air) confined at constant volume, the amount of heat
 needed to cause a one-degree temperature rise is less than if the heat is
 added to the same gas free to expand. In the first case, all the energy goes
 into raising the temperature of the gas.

 The above holds true for any of the gas chambers since these calculations do
 not involve the volume of the air being heated. The BTU would be constant and
 the specific gas chamber only comes into question if calculations for length
 of time (which is affected by volume) for heating the gas chamber was
 involved.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 740       Mon Apr 06, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 18:09 EDT
 
 719 Raven:

  > In the paragraph at the bottom of the page, we read: "Armontrout described
  > for the court, with the aid of slides, the incredibly complex business of
  > conducting a lethal gassing. He noted that 38 people 'are closely involved
  > on-site' in such an operation in Missouri, while more than 200 participate
  > indirectly."

 And right above that paragraph we read:

 "Though Missouri has executed no one during Armontrout's tenure, he has
 witnessed two gassings in other states, and helped with one." This is then
 footnoted with the following note: "At three minutes past midnight on January
 6, 1989, Bill Armontrout presided over his first execution, and Missouri's
 first since 1965. It was accomplished, however, by means of a lethal
 injection."

 Therefore, as I pointed out before, Armontrout has no knowledge of what
 Missouri does or doesn't do regarding their operation of the gas chamber. In
 fact, Missouri doesn't even have a working gas chamber any more so the answer
 is even more hypothetical than what it appears on the surface.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 741       Mon Apr 06, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 18:09 EDT
 
 720 Raven:

  > Error alert! Handling the crystals would have been extremely 
  > dangerous. All the manuals call for chemical suits, rubber gloves, 
  > and special gas masks (not just any old gas mask will do). Rablin 
  > must have an interesting physiognomy if he is able to run his hands 
  > through Zyklon B without harm, yet be susceptible to a slight leak in 
  > his gas mask.

 In a brochure issued by Degesch in 1972 (the photos are reproduced in
 Pressac's book on page 17), there is a photo (#8) of the correct handling of
 what was once known as Zyklon-B (which has been renamed Cyanosil). In photo
 8, there are two men distributing the disks of Cyanosil on the floor of a
 building to be fumigated. Both men have standard overalls on and neither is
 wearing any hand covering. Other than their gas masks, they have no special
 protective gear.

 In fact, according to the "Principles of Internal Medicine," because it takes
 over 2000 times MORE HCN to cause death when skin contact is the only method
 of introduction into the system (as opposed to inhalation), cyanide poisoning
 via skin contact is rare.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 742       Mon Apr 06, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 18:10 EDT
 
 721 Raven:

  > Well, I looked before posting my 659 and I looked again after reading 
  > your 683, and I gotta tell ya that I can't see that I used the word 
  > rife in that post, or singled out the Holocaust story. 

 Seeing that I did not indicate a direct quote from you, the use of a word
 such as "rife" has little bearing on this. But, in your message 885 you did
 single out the Holocaust as having more errors than anything else you have
 been taught. Here, then, is your direct quote:

  > I have pointed out in several posts, before I started investigating 
  > this topic, virtually everything I had been told about the Holocaust 
  > story ... in the classroom, on the television, in books ... was in 
  > error. I can't think of any other topic about which that can be said. 

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 743       Mon Apr 06, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 18:11 EDT
 
 722 Raven:

  > One of us is losing it. You claim that when I stated that I consider 
  > 300,000 Jews a large number of Jews (in 661) that I was in conflict 
  > with my post of 572 when I called the 300,000 Jews in the lands ceded 
  > to Russia a "large number of Jews."

 We can clear this up fairly quickly by reviewing what you did write in #572.

  > According to Hilberg, there were 270,000 deaths of Jews in Roumania, 
  > based on the 1937 borders. According to Hilberg's first edition of 
  > "The Destruction of the European Jews," in 1939 Roumania had 800,000 
  > Jews. In June 1940, 300,000 Jews were included in land ceded to 
  > Russia. Land ceded to Transylvania contained a further 150,000 Jews. 
  > Hilberg goes on to state, "The remaining Jews in Old Roumania 
  > consequently numbered about 350,000." So far, so good.
  > .
  > Hilberg later repeats his 800,000 figure (number of Jews in Roumania 
  > in 1939), and adds that in 1945 (presumably after the war) there were 
  > 430,000 Jews in Roumania, although this figure is for Jews within the 
  > post-war boundaries. According to my encyclopedia, after WWII, 
  > Roumania's loss of Bessarabia and northern Bukovina to the Soviet 
  > Union, and her loss of southern Dobruja to Bulgaria, were made 
  > permanent (she regained northern Transylvania). Thus, the post-war 
  > borders were much smaller, and did NOT include lands that had 
  > originally contained a large number of Jews.

 So, for there to be no conflict (or confusion), you must be saying that
 300,000 qualifies as a "large number of Jews" by a mere 150,000 is NOT a
 large number of Jews. Is that correct?

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 744       Mon Apr 06, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 18:11 EDT
 
 723 Raven:

  > Let's not. I merely wanted to make the point that in spite of the 
  > work Hilberg has done in this area, demographics for this area in 
  > this era are tricky, and even Hilberg's figures cannot be accepted as 
  > absolute. I believe we both agree on this point.

 We both agree that "demographics for this area in this era are tricky" but
 you have made a compound sentence with which I cannot agree. So, your belief
 is faulty....but it was a nice try! :-)

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 745       Mon Apr 06, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 18:12 EDT
 
 724 Raven:

  >> Weber regretted Rassinier's shortcomings, but emphasized his 
  >> reliability about subjects of which he had first-hand knowledge, such as
  >> the Buchenwald and Dora camps.
  .
  > To my mind, the phrase that starts "such as" does not limit 
  > Rassinier's reliability to only Buchenwald and Dora. To me they 
  > represent examples of some of the areas in which Rassinier is 
  > reliable, and there may be others.

 Now I understand the confusion. What are these "shortcomings" to which Mark
 Weber referred? Let's go back and see if Weber ever clarifies this, shall we?
 Oh, look, under cross-examination, Weber admits that he had been "disturbed"
 by Rassinier's "errors of fact" which was why he has "accepted nothing he
 [Rassinier] writes" except first-person experiences!

 That then clarifies the "such as," doesn't it?

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 746       Mon Apr 06, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 18:13 EDT
 
 725 Raven:

  > Two reasons. First, because that is not what Kremer allegedly wrote. 
  > Second, Kremer was a native German speaker, was he not? He certainly 
  > could have used the "vernichtungslager" construction if that is what 
  > he had meant, couldn't he?

 Once again you are attempting to make a distinction where there is no
 difference. Let's try working with an example. You and I are both native
 speakers of English (I know that I am and I am assuming that you are based
 upon the few facts you've provided us about your background).

 Now, yesterday just happened to be my mother's birthday. If you were to tell
 someone that you might say: "Yesterday was Pooh's mother's birthday." That
 person might relay that information on to someone else by saying: "Yesterday
 was the birthday of Pooh's mother." Once again, that person could relay the
 information down the line by saying: "Yesterday was the birthday of the
 mother of Pooh." All of these sentences convey the same information and have
 identical meanings.

 The same is true of "extermination camp" or "camp of extermination." That
 holds true whether we are speaking English or German (i.e. "Lager der
 Vernichtung" and "Vernichtungslager" are the same).

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 747       Mon Apr 06, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 18:13 EDT
 
 725 Raven:

  > Now I will have to again ask that you not misquote me, and from 
  > casting further aspersions on the character of Mr. Leuchter. You know 
  > perfectly well that we were discussing the technique of mass 
  > executions, not the moral implications.

 I did not misquote you. In fact, I brought your statement directly from your
 message into mine!

 Here, then, is your comment in which you were responding to John. [">>>" =
 John's comment, ">>" = your comment, ">" = my comment]

  >>> ... Fred Leuchter cannot help but be "alienated" by the idea of mass 
  >>> produced executions.
  .
  >> I will have to ask that you refrain from further speculation about 
  >> what Mr. Leuchter would or would not do in any given situation.

  > Does this mean that after you many phone conversations with Fred Leuchter,
  > you believe that he would NOT be alienated by the idea of mass produced
  > exectuions?

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 748       Mon Apr 06, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 18:14 EDT
 
 727 Raven:

  > According to the Leuchter Report, Kremas II and III were in a state 
  > of disrepair, but there were still major portions available for 
  > examination. Kremas IV and V were "razed long ago," leaving only the 
  > "foundation or floor." Plans purporting to be of these two buildings 
  > are available.

 Well, that's not exactly what the Leuchter Report says, is it?

 "In Birkenau, Kremas II, III, IV, V are collapsed, or razed to the
 foundations..."

 I would consider "collapsed or razed to the foundations" to be a tad bit more
 than "in a state of disrepair," wouldn't you?

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 749       Mon Apr 06, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 18:14 EDT
 
 727 Raven:

  > You seem to be working on the assumption that all these "gas 
  > chambers" were working simultaneously when in fact they weren't, 
  > which you must realize.

 I believe that you failed to read my message even though you quoted it into
 your own message. Here is the section which is relevant to the above:

  > and each chamber was used an equal number of times (which also wasn't the
  > case)

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 750       Mon Apr 06, 1992
H.P.SKALIKS [Hans-Peter]     at 21:42 EDT
 
B.EATON2...message 710

The "Universal Standard Encyclopedia" published by Funk and Wagnall in 1956,
which was given to me as a child, still states "According to a conservative
estimate, more than 4,000,000 men, women, and children were put to death at
the Auschwitz camp alone...". The same encyclopedia mentions the traditional
total of 6 million. More modern encyclopedias, like the one operated by
CompuServe waffle a little and give the totals for Auschwitz as between 1 and
3 million.

This says several things in light of the fact that the 4 million figure was
Soviet propaganda....

1) No research was done and the Soviet figures were taken at face value.

2) The 4 million must surely be included in the 6 million, for the story to
make any sense at all, even in 1956.

3) If the actual figure for this camp is 1.1 million, then simple arithmetic
and honesty should reduce the total to a little over 3 million. I agree with
Dov that this does not change the moral issue, but why deliberately go with
figures which cannot be supported?

4) Variations of fatality roles in the range from 1 to 3 million in modern
encyclopedias suggest very strongly that nobody knows how many victims there
were. How can the base figures be this vague and yet the 6 million result be
so definite?

Your arithmetic, Mr. Eaton, appears to operate by different rules than most,
if any arbitrary set of numbers always adds up to 6 million.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 751       Mon Apr 06, 1992
H.P.SKALIKS [Hans-Peter]     at 22:02 EDT
 
POOH.BAH...message 739

The calculation may be simple, but it is also incorrect. 1 BTU is the amount
of heat required to raise the temperature of one pound of water by 1
Fahrenheit degree, while a kcal is the amount needed to raise a 1 kg of water
by 1 Celsius degree. Kilograms are larger than pounds and Celsius degrees are
larger than Fahrenheit degrees, so it follows that kcal are larger than BTU.
As a matter of fact, the proper conversion is 1 BTU = 0.252 kcal NOT 1 BTU =
252 kcal. You are off by a factor of 1000.

The 3500 kcal you mentioned would be the total food intake over a 24- hour
period for a fairly robust construction worker who eats heavily. Incidentally,
1 food calorie = 1 Cal = 1 kcal. A fairly healthy person at rest produces the
same amount of heat as a 60 watt light bulb.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 752       Mon Apr 06, 1992
B.EATON2 [BZE]               at 23:33 EDT
 
To Hans-Peter Message #750

I believe the 6 million is the difference between the number of Jews who lived
in Europe before 1933 and those who were unaccounted for when the war ended in
'45.  It does not matter whether they were gassed, shot, died of beatings,
starvation, typhus, or suffocated in the cattle cars.  They died because of a
deliberate policy of extermination.  THAT is the meaning of the Holocaust.


 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 753       Tue Apr 07, 1992
P.BRADEN [pat.b]             at 01:25 EDT
 
Raven tries to make an issue out of the boiling pointy of HCN but his
ignorance of chemistry is showing. Its not the boiling point that matters but
the vapor pressure. Liquid HCN has a very high vapor pressure even at low
temperature. The "handbook of Chemistry and Physics" (aka the rubber bible)
lists a vapor pressure of 400 mm of Hg at 10.2 C. By comparison, the vapor
pressure of ether is quite a bit lower and anybody who's ever spilled ether on
the floor knows how fast that evaporates! Also, HCN vapor is considerably less
dense than air (about 0.9 g/l as oppposed to 1.3 g/l). Therefore the liquid
would evaporate and fill the room quickly, even in winter. Perhaps Raven also
doesn't believe in entropy. His sillyness about explosive polymerization is
just that. Obviously, It can only happen in the liquid state or at very high
vapor concentrations.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 754       Tue Apr 07, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 03:08 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 700) ---
 > According to the eminent Austrian chemist, Dr. Josef Bailer:
 >  It is, however, also unlikely that Prussian blue [i.e. 
 ferric-ferro- cyanide] arose in the walls, because the iron in the 
 bricks and in the burnt  lime acted unfavorably for the reaction of 
 the trivalent form [of iron] and  because the alkaline environment 
 hindered the reaction. 
 .
 I am not familiar with Dr. Bailer or his evaluation of the Leuchter 
 Report. Can you tell me, has he actually done any testing or is he 
 eyeballing this thing from the comfort of his armchair? Note that I 
 don t want a listing of his qualifications, I want to know if he has 
 done the hands-on work, or if he is  bench-racing.  So far, the 
 Leuchter Report, the Krakow Institute report, the recent Austria 
 report, and the recent German report ... all on-site examinations ... 
 conclude that there were no gas chambers.
 ---
 > Leuchter s test result for the delousing chamber (i.e. his 
  control  sample)  has a value so high it is unbelievable. This 
 comment, BTW, is also made by  Dr. Josef Bailer. 
 .
 This sounds suspiciously like bench-racing. If Dr. Bailer s test 
 results differ, let s see them. If he has no test results, then I 
 encourage him to do his homework and then get back to us.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 755       Tue Apr 07, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 03:08 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 701) ---
 > As far as gas trapped in lungs, dead people don t exhale. 
 Therefore, there  would be no danger inherent in that.
 .
 No, but when they are moved the air might be forced out of their 
 bodies, yes? This may not qualify as an exhale, but the HCN-rich air 
 is being exhausted from the bodies nevertheless.
 ---
 > Next, HCN has been used in places such  as mills and granaries 
 because it decomposes after a short time and leaves no  residue 
 behind.
 .
 Please cite a range of times and a reference for these times. 
 According to the DEGESCH and DuPont materials I have quoted, it takes 
 several hours for HCN gas to decompose to a level considered safe. 
 The so-called eyewitness accounts make no allowance for this time to 
 elapse.
 ---
 > Also, HCN dissipates quickly when exposed to air which has  lower 
 (or no) HCN concentration. This would mean that any residual gas in 
 the  chamber would not adversely affect the Sonderkommandos.
 > All of the above information comes from Dr. Josef Bailer s  The 
 Leuchter  Report from the View of a Chemist.  
 .
 If one is moving bodies that have concentrations of HCN gas trapped 
 in their lungs, and pockets of HCN gas in their hair, clothing, etc., 
 how quickly must the HCN gas dissipate in order for someone handling 
 these bodies immediately after  gassing  to be safe from also being 
 gassed? This must be the reason why engineers such as Mr. Leuchter 
 design gas chambers, and not chemists such as Dr. Bailer or 
 pharmacists such as Mr. Pressac.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 756       Tue Apr 07, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 03:09 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 703) ---
 > Seeing as you have previously stated that the testimony of Rablin 
 is  reliable, let me quote from it:
 >  ....Since we were afraid of being bitten by the lice, we put the 
 chisel, the  hammer and the can of Zyklon-B ready in advance, opened 
 it quickly and threw  the substance on the floor. Despite the speed 
 of this operation the lice  jumped on our legs and to protect 
 ourselves we spread a little Zyklon-B  around our feet. Immediately, 
 I could feel the lice drop off, dead. 
 .
 So. You are now reduced to misquoting me? As I have stated twice now, 
 I do not consider the testimony of Rablin reliable in and of itself.
 .
 However, I must thank you for reposting this tidbit, because there is 
 something I forgot to mention earlier. You have repeatedly posted 
 messages telling us all how much higher the concentrations of HCN gas 
 must be to kill lice compared to humans. Yet here you have lice 
 dropping off dead immediately and the humans continuing to work and 
 run their hands through the Zyklon B! In fact, in your next post 
 (704) you state:
 .
 > After all, the concentration of HCN that is necessary  (and the 
 length of time necessary) to exterminate virtually every pest other  
 than mosquitoes is much higher than what is needed to kill humans.
 .
 Which statement is correct?
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 757       Tue Apr 07, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 03:09 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 705) ---
 > HCN disperses quickly in surrounding air. That is one of the 
 reasons it can  be vented to the outside without risk to those any 
 distance away. Therefore,  your assumption that the concentration 
 would fluctuate in such a manner is  illogical. 
 .
 HCN gas may indeed disperse very quickly, but FIRST it must  gas off  
 from the inert carrier ... that s what Zyklon B is: an inert carrier 
 soaked with HCN. Are you really saying that the instant Zyklon B is 
 exposed to air, the concentration of HCN gas in the room becomes 
 uniform almost immediately? This you call logical? Perhaps you could 
 cite a reference to this amazing property.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 758       Tue Apr 07, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 03:10 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 706) ---
 >  Apart from this, the  Leuchter report only suggests, but never 
 actually maintains, that this kind  of cyanide residue had been 
 found.  (Dr. Bailer)
 .
 Huh? I thought you said you had a copy of the Leuchter Report. See 
 Appendix 1? See the title,  Compiled Data from Certificates of 
 Analysis?  See at the top the samples were tested for iron content, 
 and just below that the samples were tested for cyanide content. If 
 the cyanide was not in combination with the iron, what in the world 
 keep it around long enough to give sample 32 such a strong positive 
 reading?
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 759       Tue Apr 07, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 03:10 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 707) ---
 > Once again, from Dr. Josef Bailer:
 >  The cyanide concentrations for residuals shown in the Leuchter 
 report are  too high to be believable. A concentration of 1050 mg/kg, 
 which is given for  the  control  sample would mean that the wall 
 consisted of 0.1% Prussian  blue! This is to be traced back to either 
 an error in analysis or an error in  sample collection. ... Prussian 
 blue is a very widespread coloring material  that is to be found in 
 great quantities on old walls as a residue of old  painting or as a 
 stain of color that some kind of material that once leaned  against 
 this wall left behind..... At least in the case of the  control   
 sample the sample consisted almost exclusively of painting that 
 adhered to the  top of the plaster. 
 .
 It is now quite clear that Dr. Bailer is guessing. He has conducted 
 no on-site examination. He is speculating wildly as to what else 
 could possibly have caused Leuchter s test results. What in the world 
 can his motives be for this? It certainly cannot be science.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 760       Tue Apr 07, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 03:11 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 708) ---
 > Apparently you are trying to make a distinction without the 
 existence of a  difference. Iron atoms are iron atoms whether they 
 occur solely on the  microscopic level (i.e. atoms within brick and 
 mortar) or also on the  macroscopic level (i.e. metal object).
 .
 Could you please cite a reference for this statement? According to my 
 Webster s dictionary under the listing,  ion,  I find:
  an atom or group of atoms that carries a positive or negative 
 electric charge as a result of having lost or gained one or more 
 electrons. 
 .
 From this we can see quite clearly that there are atoms that have NOT 
 lost one or more electrons, and those that have. Those that have are 
 called ions, and ... although not stated here ... could very well 
 behave differently than  whole  atoms, just as Mr. Leuchter has 
 stated.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 761       Tue Apr 07, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 03:11 EDT
 
 To John Stengel (regarding 712) ---
 > I think what you are saying is that only the Zyklon B pellets 
 themselves must be  heated to 78.3 degrees F...not necessarily the 
 entire area into which  they are to release HCN.  I could propose any 
 of a number of ways to  do that very easily...place the can in hot 
 water for a few minutes  before opening...enough heat energy would be 
 absorbed by the pellets  to ensure their rapid and complete 
 evaporation once released from the can (regardless of the ambient 
 temperature of the area into which the pellets are placed). 
 .
 This method may work, but you are taking advantage of 20/20 
 hindsight. That is, adding and subtracting  facts  to try to keep the 
 story intact. You could do your hypothesis a world of good if you 
 could produce some kind of evidence that the Germans followed this 
 procedure.
 ---
 > Yes, I agree, when used for fumigation purposes the air flow is  
 important.  Fumigating a building though (presumably with many 
 different  rooms, hallways, nooks and crannies), is far different 
 than simply  releasing the gas in one single room (with no 
 architectural barriers). In the single room (or gas chamber) 
 scenario;  once present, the  gas diffuses rapidly and uniformly 
 throughout the volume of the room.
 .
 When you read how tightly the Germans supposedly packed the victims 
 into these  single rooms,  you begin to see that the restriction to 
 the air flow is far, far greater than it would typically be during 
 the fumigation of a factory, barracks, etc.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 762       Tue Apr 07, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 03:12 EDT
 
 To E.Brown (regarding 713) ---
 > Wouldn t the chemical reaction of Zyklon-B with acid be enough to 
 raise it s temperature over 79F?
 .
 The Germans are not alleged to have dropped Zyklon B into acid to 
 promote the gassing off process. As previously noted, acid is used in 
 American gas chambers.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 763       Tue Apr 07, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 03:16 EDT
 
 My apologies to everyone for not converting the "curly quotes" in 
 messages I just uploaded. The R is the opening quote and the S is the 
 close quote.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 764       Tue Apr 07, 1992
D.BRIN1                      at 04:09 EDT
 
Mr. Raven:  You are ignoring many of Pooh's salient points. She has explained
why skin contact with Zyklon B is not a significant danger.  You have ignored
the fact that the workers wore gas masks when they were killing the lice with
the chemical.  You have offered no refutation of Pooh's contention that lice
and humans are killed by vastly different levels of HCN!

What does Mr. Leuchter have to say about the subject? Does he actually
maintain that comparable concentrations of HCN will kill lice and humans
alike?
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 766       Tue Apr 07, 1992
TERMY                        at 06:22 EDT
 
In reply to:  Message 755  G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]

-> No, but when they are moved the air might be forced out of their
 -> bodies, yes? This may not qualify as an exhale, but the HCN-rich
 ->air is being exhausted from the bodies nevertheless.

1.  The amount of air that would be moved in such a fashion as you describe
would be minimal.  As a former paramedic, I've moved bodies many hundreds of
times, & am speaking from personal experience. Based upon my experiences, I
would say that no more than 100-200 cc's could be forced out in such fashion.

2.  Maximum volume of air contained in the lungs of an "average" adult is
about 6 liters.  The average inhalation-exhalation cycle displaces about 500
cc's of air, total, and 150 cc's of that is "dead space", i.e., air in the
trachea, pharynx, etc.  (p.171 Emergency Care in the Streets, 3rd Ed.  Nancy
Caroline M.D.  Little & Brown Co. Boston. 1987.)  According to my recollection
of the lectures in paramedic school on the subject, a full exhalation (from a
full inhalation) will displace about 1.5-2 liters of air from the lungs, and
this requires the use of the main and auxiliary respiratory muscle groups
(i.e., not something that could be achieved by moving an unconscious person or
deceased person). Manual (i.e., not mouth-to-mouth) non-assisted resucitation
methods displace no more than about 500 cc with each cycle.

3.  The amount of air that COULD be exhaled is much smaller than would be
necessary to support your theory.  Even if 100% of the air were exhausted from
the lungs, the amount's too small, unless you're willing to posit all of it
going directly into the lungs of the person or persons moving the body.  A
liter or two of exhaled air would be dissipated into the atmosphere very
quickly.

4.  Due to the absorption of the HCN through the alveolar membranes, the
expressed air would contain much less HCN than when inhaled, hence would be
less dangerous.

-> If one is moving bodies that have concentrations of HCN gas
 ->trapped in their lungs, and pockets of HCN gas in their hair,
 ->clothing, etc., how quickly must the HCN gas dissipate in order
 ->for someone handling these bodies immediately after  gassing  to
 ->be safe from also being gassed?

1.  Re "trapped in their lungs":  See above points 1-4.

2. Re "hair":  The amount of gas trapped in the hair would be minimal and
subject to quick dispersion in any air current.  This presumes the gassed
victims HAD hair...many didn't.

3. Re "clothing":  What clothing?

->This must be the reason why engineers such as Mr. Leuchter
 ->design gas chambers, and not chemists such as Dr. Bailer or
 ->pharmacists such as Mr. Pressac.

Where did Mr. Leuchter obtain his engineering degree?  Also, what criminal
record does Mr. Leuchter have & how does it relate to engineering?


 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 767       Tue Apr 07, 1992
AH.STEIN                     at 18:37 EDT
 
 750  Hans-Peter:

 >The "Universal Standard Encyclopedia" published by Funk and Wagnall in
 1956, which was given to me as a child, still states ...

 Historians generally do not use Funk and Wagnall's encyclopedia as a
 source.

 As Pooh.Bah has pointed out several times (apparently you missed her
 explanations), professional historians have confirmed the 6 million deaths
 figure after taking the Aushwitz figures you refer to into account.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 768       Tue Apr 07, 1992
C.FINK4 [Carl]               at 20:39 EDT
 
  Raven, your 756:

>>... You have repeatedly posted  messages telling us all how much
 >>higher the concentrations of HCN gas  must be to kill lice
 >>compared to humans. Yet here you have lice  dropping off dead
 >>immediately and the humans continuing to work and  run their hands
 >>through the Zyklon B! In fact, in your next post  (704) you
 >>state:....

  [referring to Rahlin's testimony that he and his fellow workers used HCN gas
released by sublimation from crystals to kill like on their legs, and that he
handled HCN crystals with his bare hands.]

  Raven, this is disingenuous.  Surely you realize that Rahlin was wearing a
gas mask?  That absorption through the skin is trivial by comparison to
absorption through the lungs?  That levels instantly fatal even to lice WHICH
BREATHE THE GAS IN are harmless when touching only exposed skin?


Raven, your 757:

>> HCN gas may indeed disperse very quickly, but FIRST it must  gas
 >>off   from the inert carrier ... that s what Zyklon B is: an inert
 >>carrier  soaked with HCN. Are you really saying that the instant
 >>Zyklon B is  exposed to air, the concentration of HCN gas in the
 >>room becomes  uniform almost immediately? This you call logical?
 >>Perhaps you could  cite a reference to this amazing property.

  Raven, can you cite a reference demonstrating that it takes more than 15
minutes for the HCN gas to escape from the inert carrier in Zyclon B?

Raven, your 760:

  I know your contempt for qualifications when they don't belong to Deniers,
but take the word of a science teacher:  while metallic iron contains
unionized atoms, the compounds of metallic iron with the cyanide radical are
not different from those formed by ionic iron compounds.  If you don't believe
me, ask a chemist.

  Oh, the word "unionized" above is un-EYE-uh-nyzed, meaning "not ionized". 
It has nothing to do with trade unions.

                                Carl Fink
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 769       Tue Apr 07, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri]            at 22:30 EDT
 
From SHOAH, excerpt of Claude Lanzmann's interview of historian Raul Hilberg

Hilberg: This is the Fahrplananordnung 587 which is typical for special
trains. The number of the order goes to show you how many of them there were.
Underneath: Nur fuer den Dienstgebrauch-- "Only for internal use." But this
turns out to be a very low classification for secrecy. And the fact that in
this entire document, which after all deals with death trains, one cannot see--
 not only on this one, one cannot see it on others--the word geheim, "secret,"
is astonishing to me. That they would not have done that is very astonishing.
On second thought, I believe that had they labeled it secret, they would have
invited a great many inquiries from people who got hold of it. They would then
perhaps have raised more questions; they would have focused attention on the
thing. And the key to the entire operation from the psychological standpoint
was never to utter the words that would be appropriate to the action being
taken. Say nothing; do these things; do not describe them. So therefore this
"Nur fuer den Dienstgebrauch." And now notice to how many recipients this
particular order goes. "Bfe"-Bahnhofe. On this stretch there are one, two,
three, four, five, six, seven, eight, and here we are in Malkinia, which is of
course the station near Treblinka. But notice that it takes eight recipients
for this relatively short distance through Radom to the Warsaw district-eight,
because the train passes through these stations. Therefore, each one has to
know. Not only that, but of course you're not going to write two pieces of
paper if you can write only one. Therefore, we find here not only PKR, which
is a death train, going here in the plan labeled thus, but we also see the
empty train after it has arrived in Treblinka, now originating in Treblinka,
and you can always know whether it's an empty train with the letter L in front
of it, leer, and now--

Ruckleitung des Leerzuges, which means "return of the empty train."

--the train returns empty. And now we're going back. Then we have another
train, Now notice that there is very little subtlety to this numbering system.
We are going from 9228 to 9229, to 9230, to 9231, to 9232. Hardly any
originality here. It's just very regular traffic.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 770       Tue Apr 07, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri]            at 22:31 EDT
 
Lanzmann: Death traffic.

Hilberg: Death traffic. And here we see that starting out in one ghetto, which
obviously is being emptied, the train leaves for Treblinka. It leaves on the
thirtieth of September, 1942, eighteen minutes after four o'clock-by the
schedule at least-and arrives there at eleven twenty-four on the next morning.
This is also a very long train, which may be the reason it is so slow. It's a
50G--fuenfzig Gueterwagen--fifty freight cars filled with people. That's an
exceptionally heavy transport. Now once the train has been unloaded at
Treblinka-and you notice there are two numbers here: 11:24, that's in the
morning, and 15:59, which is to say almost four o'clock in the afternoon--in
that interval of time the train has to be unloaded, cleaned and turned around.
And you see here the same numbers appear as the Leerzug, the now empty train,
goes to another place. And it leaves at four o'clock in the afternoon and goes
now to that other place which is yet another small town where it picks up
victims. And there you are at three o'clock in the morning. It leaves on the
twenty-third at three o'clock in the morning. And arrives there the next day.

Lanzmann: What is that? lt seems to be the same train.

It is the same--quite obviously the same. The number has to be changed quite
obviously. Correct. Then it goes back to Treblinka and this is again a long
trip; and it now goes back to yet another place-the same situation, the same
trip. And then yet another. Goes to Treblinka and then arrives in Czestochowa
the twenty-ninth of September and then the cycle is complete. And this is
called a Fahrplananordnung. If you count up the number of not empty trains but
full ones--PKRs-- there's one--there's one here, that's two, that's three,
that's four--we may be talking about ten thousand dead Jews on this one
Fahrplananordnung here.

Lanzmann: More than ten thousand.

Hilberg: Well, we will be conservative here.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 771       Tue Apr 07, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri]            at 22:31 EDT
 
Lanzmann: But why is this document so fascinating, as a matter of fact?
Because I was in Treblinka, and to have the two things together. . .

Hilberg: Well, you see, when I hold a document in my hand, particularly if
it's an original document, then I hold something which is actually something
that the original bureaucrat held in his hand. It's an artifact. It's a
leftover. It's the only leftover there is. The dead are not around. The
Reichsbahn was ready to ship in principle any cargo in return for payment. And
therefore, the basic key --price-controlled key-- was that Jews were going to
be shipped to Treblinka, were going to be shipped to Auschwitz, Sobibor or any
other destination so long as the railroads were paid by the track kilometer,
so many pfennigs per mile. The rate was the same throughout the war. With
children under ten going at half-fare and children under four going free.
Payment had to be made for only one way. The guards, of course, had to have
return fare paid for them because they were going back to their place of
origin.

Lanzmann: Excuse me, the children under four who were shipped to the
extermination camps, the children under four. . .

Hilberg: . . . went free.

Lanzmann: They had the privilege to be gassed freely?

Hilberg: Yes, transport was free. In addition to that, because the person who
had to pay, the agency that had to pay, was the agency that ordered the train--
and that happened to have been the Gestapo, Eichmann's office--because of the
financial problem which that office had in making payment, the Reichsbahn
agreed on group fares. The Jews were being shipped in much the same way that
any excursion group would be granted a special fare if there were enough
people traveling. The minimum was four hundred, a kind of charter fare. Four
hundred minimum. So even if there were fewer than four hundred, it would pay
to say there were four hundred and in that way get the half-fare for adults as
well. And that was the basic principle. Now of course if there were
exceptional filth in the cars, which might be the case, if there was damage to
the equipment, which might be the case because the transports took so long and
because five to ten percent of the prisoners died en route. Then there might
be an additional bill for that damage. But in principle, so long as payment
was being made, transports were being shipped. Sometimes the SS got credit.
Sometimes the transport went out before payment, because as you see, the whole
business was handled as in the case of any other charter traffic especially or
any really personal traffic of any kind through a travel bureau. Mittel
Europaeisch Reisebuero (The Middle Europe Travel Agency) would handle some of
these transactions-the billing procedure, the ticketing procedure-or if a
smaller transport was involved, the SS would . . .

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 772       Tue Apr 07, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri]            at 22:33 EDT
 
Lanzmann: It was the same bureau that was dealing with any kind of normal
passenger?

Hilberg: Absolutely. Just the official travel bureau. Mittel Europaeisch
Reisebuero would ship people to the gas chambers or they will ship vacationers
to their favorite resort, and that was basically the same office and the same
operation, the same procedure, the same billing.

Lanzmann: No difference?

Hilberg: No difference whatsoever. As a matter of course, everybody would do
that job as if it were the most normal thing to do.

Lanzmann: lt was not a normal job.

Hilberg: No, it was not a normal job. As a matter of fact, you know, even the
complicated currency procedures were followed in much the same way as with any
other transactions  if borders had to be crossed, and that was very frequent.
I think the most interesting example is of course Greece, the transports from
Salonika, Greece, in the spring of 1943, involving some forty six thousand
victims over a considerable distance, so that even with group fare the bill
came to almost 2 million marks, which was quite a sum. And the basic
principle, you see, with such traffic is that which is employed in the
customary way, even to this day, all over the world. One pays in the currency
of the place of origin, but then one has to pay the participating railroads en
route in their own currencies.

Lanzmann: From Salonika they bad to cross Greece--it was drachmas.


Hilberg: In Greece it was drachmas, and then you might have to go through the
Serbian and Croatian railroads, and you might then have to go to the
Reichsbahn and pay in marks. Now ironically, the problem was, you see, that
the military commander in Salonika who was in charge-so he in a sense was the
ultimate person responsible for paying for these things--didn't have the
marks, though he did have the drachmas, you see, from the confiscated Jewish
property which was used to pay for these things. This was a self-financing
principle. The SS or the military would confiscate Jewish property and with
the proceeds, especially from bank deposits, would pay for transports.

Lanzmann: You mean that the Jews themselves bad to pay for their death?

Hilberg: You have to remember one basic principle. There was no budget for
destruction. So that is the reason confiscated property had to be used in
order to make the payments. All right. The property of the Jews in Salonika
was confiscated, but the proceeds were in local Greek currency. The
Reichsbahn, of course, would want payment in marks. How then do you change the
drachmas into marks? Now you have exchange controls, right within occupied
Europe. The only way it could be done, of course, is if somebody in this
occupied zone obtained marks. But how could they? This was not such a simple
thing in wartime, and therefore for once there was a default, and the railroad
shipped all of these Jews to Auschwitz without compensation.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 773       Tue Apr 07, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 22:55 EDT
 
 To All (regarding 573) ---
 Get ready to laugh ... I made a mistake.
 .
 In my 573 (and subsequent posts) regarding evaluating the Kremer 
 diary, I made reference to my source as being Paul Rassinier, when in 
 fact the source is Robert Faurisson. I got my wires crossed.
 ---
 While I have your undivided attention, in my post of 918 (in the 
 other TOPic), I quoted someone as saying that Walter Lueftl's report, 
 "Holocaust: Belief and Facts," was "published recently in Vienna." 
 This is apparently untrue. The report was apparently made public by 
 someone other than Mr. Lueftl, although Mr. Lueftl stands behind his 
 report. This is particularly interesting in light of the fact that 
 Austria has just "approved a new law to prosecute as a criminal 
 anyone who denies the Holocaust,'" according to the latest IHR 
 Newsletter. The Newsletter goes on to say that, "(t)he new law makes 
 it illegal 'to deny, grossly minimize, praise or justify through 
 printed works, over the airwaves or in any other medium the National 
 Socialist genocide or any other National Socialist crime.'" I feel 
 that this type of thought-crime legislation makes the weaknesses of 
 the traditional Holocaust story all that much more apparent, but I 
 certainly do not envy Mr. Lueftl his position.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 774       Tue Apr 07, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 22:55 EDT
 
 To Daniel Brin (regarding 732) ---
 > What is the value of Mr. Leuchter's "control" samples when he fails 
 to acknowledge that the delousing chambers would have been exposed to 
 much higher levels of HCN than the human gas chambers? When these 
 delousing chambers were exposed to many hours of gassing during each 
 use?
 .
 As I have stated repeatedly, by testing a surface known to have been 
 in contact with HCN gas, he was able to determine what range of 
 cyanide compounds might be found on other, similar surfaces (that is, 
 similar construction, materials, condition after 45 years, etc.). If 
 you have been following along with this discussion, you know that 
 there are those who claim that the CN compounds would never have 
 lasted all this time. Leuchter showed that they could have. Without 
 that control sample, the almost uniformly low readings in the 
 so-called gas chambers could have easily been dismissed by just this 
 argument. Leuchter therefore established that not only could the 
 chemical reaction have taken place, but that it did in fact do so, 
 and that the resulting compounds are resilient enough to have lasted 
 to the present day.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 775       Tue Apr 07, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 22:56 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 737) ---
 > Krema I, being at Auschwitz I, was part of the head camp and not 
 the extermination camp (Auschwitz II or Auschwitz-Birkenau).
 .
 Doesn't Pressac state that there were executions at Krema I, 
 including some conducted in a hallway? It is my understanding that 
 Pressac formed this opinion after looking at the Leuchter Report, 
 which shows higher level of CN compounds than any of the other four 
 alleged extermination sites.
 ---
 > As far as evidence, there is more evidence concerning the Holocaust 
 than for almost any other event in history. For every other 
 historical event, eyewitness accounts, written documents, letters, 
 diaries, memoirs, etc. are all accepted without question.
 .
 This is so blatantly untrue I can't imagine why you would say it. In 
 the study of historical events, NOTHING is accepted without question.
 ---
 > Yet, the Holocaust is held to a different standard. Why do you 
 suppose that is, Greg?
 .
 The Holocaust IS held to a different standard ... a much lower one. I 
 suppose this has something to do with the taboo that has been created 
 against the dispassionate study of this so-called event.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 776       Tue Apr 07, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 22:56 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 738) ---
 > There is no contradiction here [in the presented translation of the 
 Franke-Gricksch Report]. For instance, if a document in German speaks 
 of 1 kg., there is nothing wrong in translating that to 2.2 lbs.
 .
 I can understand why you speak of this matter hypothetically: the 
 Franke-Gricksch Report does NOT mention kilograms, either. It refers 
 to "1/2  - 1 Ztr. Koks." ("Ztr" being short for Zentner, apparently). 
 Are you trying to evade my question or have you in actuality not 
 reviewed a carbon copy of this document, as you claim? You might as 
 well answer me, as I will continue to ask until you do so in a 
 satisfactory manner.
 ---
 Furthermore, I don't care what your English thesaurii (and etc.) say, 
 it is NOT okay to have a sentence that translates into perfectly good 
 English as "the camp of the annihilation" and change it to 
 "extermination camp" and then to "death camp" and then to "sadistic 
 Nazi baby-murder camp" simply because it pleases you to do so. When 
 Kremer says, "the camp of the annihilation," he is clearly speaking 
 of something that is NOT extermination. He himself was sick 
 emotionally and physically, was he not? In this condition, having 
 been told that Auschwitz was a terrible place, and having seen the 
 sanitary conditions (and having been a victim of them as well), it 
 would not have been unusual for him to paint a bleak picture in his 
 diary ... which after all is a private document and there is no 
 reason for him to hide anything from himself ... about the camp 
 conditions, the poor prisoner health, and the deaths due to typhus, 
 etc. But this is not extermination! Only by twisting the translation 
 around can you even begin to make it so.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 777       Tue Apr 07, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 22:57 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 740) ---
 > Therefore, as I pointed out before, Armontrout has no knowledge of 
 what Missouri does or doesn't do regarding their operation of the gas 
 chamber. In fact, Missouri doesn't even have a working gas chamber 
 any more so the answer is even more hypothetical than what it appears 
 on the surface. 
 .
 You sure are reading a lot into Lenski's version of the Zuendel 
 trial. I thought you had the transcript? Are you telling us that the 
 transcript makes this no clearer? That Armontrout was called as an 
 expert witness because he was a nice guy?
 .
 You are also leaping to a conclusion that is unsupported by what 
 little Lenski does say about this matter. As I posted in 719: 
 "Armontrout described for the court, with the aid of slides, the 
 incredibly complex business of conducting a lethal gassing. He noted 
 that 38 people 'are closely involved on-site' in such an operation in 
 Missouri, while more than 200 participate indirectly." Are you saying 
 that Armontrout was guessing about how many people it might take if 
 they ever decided to use the gas chamber? Give me a break.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 778       Tue Apr 07, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 22:57 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 741) ---
 > In a brochure issued by DEGESCH in 1972 ...
 .
 Aren't you the one who complained when I made reference to a document 
 from DuPont that was not contemporaneous? What's this 1972 document 
 doing here? At the very least you could have pointed out that the 
 front of the Leuchter Report has a (poor) photo of a small can of 
 what may be Zyklon B, with a pry-off cap. Let me save you the 
 trouble. Let me also save you the anxiety of awaiting my reply, which 
 is that these small tins were probably used for something else (I 
 have one photo showing the contents of a small can being poured into 
 a mammal hole), and the big tins used for the industrial 
 applications.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 779       Tue Apr 07, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 22:58 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 744) ---
 Okay. If you don't want to accept my Reader's Digest version of the 
 Rumanian numbers as evidence that we have to be cautious about 
 accepting Hilberg's figures, let's go over these Rumanian figures one 
 more time in a bit more depth. I was hoping to get away from this 
 because we have already seen that there was no policy of 
 extermination, not enough time for the extermination, not enough room 
 for the extermination, no witnesses for the extermination, etc. 
 However, if you wish to beat this into the ground, we can show that 
 there were no victims as well.
 ---
 According to Sanning, here are the figures for the Rumanian Jewish 
 population:
 .
  692,244  Jewish population in early 1938
 - 16,000  Emigration from 1938 through mid-1939
 ---------
  676,244  Jewish population mid-1939
 +100,000  Admission of Polish-Jewish refugees (1939)
 --------
  776,244  Jewish population in September 1939
 - 91,000  Polish-Jewish refugees taken over by the USSR 1939
 -225,088  Native Rumanian Jews taken over by the USSR 1939
 -148,621  Acquired by Hungary
 -    412  Acquired by Bulgaria
 - 10,700  Emigration 1940
 --------
  300,423  sub-total
 + 15,086  Persons considered Jewish by def. of 1941 census
 --------
  315,509  Jewish population, census of April 6, 1941
 - 20,000  Emigration April 1941 - end of the war
 --------
  295,509  Jews in Core-Rumania at end of the war (maximum)
 +148,621  Recovery of Transylvania
 +    412  Recovery of southern Dobrudja
 - 10,500  Fallen Jews in Hungarian military labor force
 -  1,000  Jews failing to return from German camps
 --------
  433,000  Calculated number of Jews in post-war Rumania
 -430,000  "Survivors" according to Hilberg
 --------
    3,000  "Missing" Jews
 ---
 Thus, the number of Jews who could possibly have been murdered by the 
 Germans is around 4,000, not the much higher figure Hilberg gives. As 
 you can see, you would have been better off accepting my statement 
 that there is some discrepancy. According to the figures shown above, 
 the "discrepancy" is more like an irreconcilable difference. If the 
 Germans had a policy of extermination for the Jews, and if they had 
 all these "gas chambers," and all these crematoria, and all this 
 efficiency, certainly they could have managed to murder more than 
 4,000 Rumanian Jews!
 ---
 When you look further into this matter, you see that the total number 
 of Jewish deaths during the war years is very close to what it would 
 have been due to natural causes over the same period of time. Once 
 you subtract out the number of probable deaths by natural causes, you 
 are left with a very, very small number ... one that not only does 
 NOT support the mythical 6 million figure, but one that does NOT 
 support any of the "gas chamber" claims.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 780       Tue Apr 07, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 22:58 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 747) ---
 > I did not misquote you.
 .
 Ah, but you did, and you mischaracterized Mr. Stengel's question to 
 boot. Let's go back to that original statement, shall we?
 .
 > There is an inherent "conflict of interest" in utilizing a man like 
 Fred Leuchter to pass judgment on the mass death gas chambers of the 
 camps. Leuchter is a "craftsman of death", an "artist" if you will; 
 analogous to the old pre-industrial age guild craftsmen of Europe. I 
 am sure Mr. Leuchter takes great professional pride in his work...the 
 condemned gets truly "personal service" from Mr. Leuchter. When the 
 industrial revolution started turning out cheap mass produced goods, 
 the old guild craftsmen probably sneered at the quality of those mass 
 produced goods; perhaps they even pronounced them unworkable or 
 whatever. Like our modern Mr. Leuchter, their professional pride was 
 highly offended... here were some sloppy upstarts cranking out an 
 inferior product; certainly produced without the loving care and 
 pride with which they turned out their product! Fred Leuchter cannot 
 help but be "alienated" by the idea of mass produced executions.
 .
 This clearly shows that we were discussing (for whatever reason) the 
 technique of mass executions, not the moral implications, and we were 
 doing so in 726, not 725 as you stated.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 781       Tue Apr 07, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 22:59 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 748) ---
 > Well, that's not exactly what the Leuchter Report says, is it?
 > "In Birkenau, Kremas II, III, IV, V are collapsed, or razed to the 
 foundations..."
 .
 Are you really sure you have a copy of the Leuchter Report? Your 
 quote comes from an OVERVIEW of the condition of the buildings, which 
 appears on page 13 under the heading, "A BRIEF History of the Alleged 
 German Execution Gas Chambers" (emphasis mine). If you look, starting 
 on page 16 Mr. Leuchter has separate headings for Krema I, Birkenau, 
 and Majdanek, in which he goes into greater detail. Here, he tells us 
 which buildings are still standing, which are not, etc.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 782       Tue Apr 07, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 22:59 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 749) ---
 > I believe that you failed to read my message even though you quoted 
 it into your own message.
 .
 I did read your message. In it, you were trying to proof that each 
 "gas chamber" would not have had to endure thousands of gassings 
 apiece because the gassing load could have been spread among the many 
 "gas chambers" available. This is an utterly fallacious approach. You 
 cannot prove one thing on the hypothesis that they might have shared 
 the load equally while acknowledging that they in fact did not do so, 
 and could not have done so.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 783       Tue Apr 07, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 22:59 EDT
 
 To B.Eaton (regarding 752) ---
 > I believe the 6 million is the difference between the number of 
 Jews who lived in Europe before 1933 and those who were unaccounted 
 for when the war ended in '45. It does not matter whether they were 
 gassed, shot, died of beatings, starvation, typhus, or suffocated in 
 the cattle cars. They died because of a deliberate policy of 
 extermination. THAT is the meaning of the Holocaust.
 .
 You've given us a lot with which to work, here. First, you state that 
 "you believe." That's fine, but you must admit that your belief does 
 not make something true. Second, the total number of Jews 
 "unaccounted for" after the war is around 600,000, according to Carl 
 Nordling and Walter Sanning, two demographers who have studied this 
 situation in depth.
 .
 Third, it does SO matter how these Jews died. There are a lot of 
 years in the range you mention, and unless I have been misinformed, 
 Jews die of old age and natural causes just like everyone else. 
 Certainly you are not blaming these deaths on the Nazis? And what 
 about the Jews who fought as partisans, or engaged in sabotage, or 
 criminal acts, and were punished? Is this, too, part of the 
 "Holocaust?"
 .
 Fourth, you keep mentioning this deliberate policy of extermination. 
 It sounds good and plays well to the grandstands, but so far even 
 Pooh.bah hasn't been able to make this one fly. Let's get some 
 references for these statements, okay?
 .
 Finally, you are selectively and unilaterally redefining the meaning 
 of the word "Holocaust," compared to what I have been taught. I 
 reject this attempt to gloss over gross inadequacies in the 
 traditional telling of the Holocaust story. If you need a word to 
 describe the deaths of all the Jews who died between 1933 and 1945, 
 make one up. Just don't use the word "Holocaust."
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 784       Tue Apr 07, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 23:00 EDT
 
 To Pat Braden (regarding 753) ---
 > Raven tries to make an issue out of the boiling pointy of HCN but 
 his ignorance of chemistry is showing. Its not the boiling point that 
 matters but the vapor pressure. Liquid HCN has a very high vapor 
 pressure even at low temperature. The "handbook of Chemistry and 
 Physics" (AKA the rubber bible) lists a vapor pressure of 400 mm of 
 Hg at 10.2 C. By comparison, the vapor pressure of ether is quite a 
 bit lower and anybody who's ever spilled ether on the floor knows how 
 fast that evaporates! Also, HCN vapor is considerably less dense than 
 air (about 0.9 g/l as opposed to 1.3 g/l). Therefore the liquid would 
 evaporate and fill the room quickly, even in winter. Perhaps Raven 
 also doesn't believe in entropy. His silliness about explosive 
 polymerization is just that. Obviously, It can only happen in the 
 liquid state or at very high vapor concentrations.
 .
 I have never claimed to be good at chemistry, but I can read. And 
 what I read tells me that although we may be dealing with HCN gas 
 once the inert carrier of the Zyklon B releases the gas, the release 
 of HCN gas from Zyklon B is NOT the same as pouring liquid HCN on the 
 floor (or anywhere else). Note this well: we are not dealing with a 
 liquid.
 .
 As to the silliness about explosive polymerization, DuPont thinks 
 enough of it to mention it a couple times as a real danger in their 
 literature on HCN. Even if the Germans did not know about this 
 property (which is doubtful but barely possible), the behavior of the 
 HCN gas would hardly have been changed by their lack of knowledge, 
 and it would have gone right ahead and explosively polymerized if the 
 conditions had been right.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 785       Wed Apr 08, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 01:16 EDT
 
 To Daniel Brin (regarding 764) ---
 > Mr. Raven: You are ignoring many of Pooh's salient points. She has 
 explained why skin contact with Zyklon B is not a significant danger. 
 You have ignored the fact that the workers wore gas masks when they 
 were killing the lice with the chemical. You have offered no 
 refutation of Pooh's contention that lice and humans are killed by 
 vastly different levels of HCN!
 .
 On the contrary, I am taking her to task about these "salient 
 points." If skin contact with Zyklon B is not a significant danger, 
 the producers of the DuPont manual for HCN must be kidding when they 
 inserted the following under the heading, "Personal Safety and First 
 Aid":
 .
 ...
 "Safety Precautions
 "The following are general precautions and procedures necessary to 
 the safe use of HCN. Detailed procedures must be developed for each 
 plant....
 4. Wear rubber gloves at all times when working on equipment, pumps, 
 or lines. If HCN liquid is spilled onto the gloves, remove them 
 immediately and thoroughly wash hands with plenty of water.
 5. Do not get HCN on skin or on clothing. In case of contact, call 
 for help and immediately flush the skin with large quantities of 
 water while removing contaminated clothing. See First Aid on page 5.
 6. Always check the nearest safety shower before starting any job 
 involving HCN handling. Do not start work unless it is in 
 satisfactory working condition....
 11. Protective clothing, including a rubber suit or chemical suit 
 with breathable air supply should be worn when breaking connections 
 in any line or equipment possibly containing HCN....
 12. When possible, work on the upwind side. Approach all HCN leaks or 
 spills from upwind.
 .
 Now, unless HCN has become much more deadly in the last 45 years, it 
 would seem that anyone not following these procedures would be in a 
 world of hurt. Note the instructions that state with an HCN spill on 
 gloves. Even then the hands must be washed immediately. This is some 
 serious stuff.
 .
 Pooh.bah (and you too, for that matter) have often made mention of 
 the fact that more HCN gas is required to kill lice than men. Yet you 
 claim that someone who is using HCN to kill lice "immediately" can 
 run his hands through the Zyklon B, dressed either in his undies or 
 starkers.
 ---
 > What does Mr. Leuchter have to say about the subject? Does he 
 actually maintain that comparable concentrations of HCN will kill 
 lice and humans alike?
 .
 He does not directly address this issue, however, he does mention 
 that 300 ppm is rapidly fatal to humans, and he reprints a DEGESCH 
 Zyklon B manual that mentions that rodents require 1.2 g/m^3, while 
 larder beetles require twenty times as much. Does this answer your 
 question? By the way, I have an extra copy of the Leuchter Report, 
 and if you wish I can send it to you.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 786       Wed Apr 08, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 01:16 EDT
 
 To Termy (regarding 766) ---
 > The amount of gas trapped in the hair would be minimal and subject 
 to quick dispersion in any air current. This presumes the gassed 
 victims HAD hair...many didn't.
 .
 Although I can't recall which account it was, there is a so-called 
 eyewitness account that mentions that after the gassings the hair was 
 shorn from the corpses, without the benefit of washing the HCN gas 
 from the corpses nor length aeration.
 ---
 > Where did Mr. Leuchter obtain his engineering degree? Also, what 
 criminal record does Mr. Leuchter have & how does it relate to 
 engineering? 
 .
 I am not sure that Mr. Leuchter has an engineering degree. He has, 
 however, been working as an engineer for several years. I have not 
 heard that Mr. Leuchter has a criminal record.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 787       Wed Apr 08, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 01:17 EDT
 
 To Carl Fink (regarding 768) ---
 > Raven, can you cite a reference demonstrating that it takes more 
 than 15 minutes for the HCN gas to escape from the inert carrier in 
 Zyclon B?
 .
 Your question is a little vague. Are you asking if I can cite a 
 reference for how long it takes for all the HCN to gas off of the 
 Zyklon B pellets? I don't see how this is important, but I will try 
 if you will give me the temperature and humidity point at which you 
 wish to know this. As the Leuchter Report states, the warmer and 
 drier the weather, the faster the gassing will go. Of course, some 
 starts to gas off right away, but as the Zyklon B manual states under 
 the heading, "Stability:"
 .
 "Liquid PURE HCN is very unstable for which reason only STABILIZED 
 hydrocyanic acid is marketed. Weak acids or substances splitting off 
 acids are used as stabilizers. Absorption in porous materials also 
 has a stabilizing effect." (emphasis in the original)
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 788       Wed Apr 08, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 01:17 EDT
 
 To Sheri Pierce (regarding 769 - 772) ---
 It may interest you to learn that Raul Hilberg testified for the 
 Crown at the first Zuendel trial, and under cross-examination, this 
 man who may well be the foremost exterminationist Holocaustician (he 
 was at the time professor of Political Science at the University of 
 Vermont) got his ears so thoroughly pinned back that he refused to 
 appear as a witness at the second Zuendel trial. An example of what 
 happened follows, from "The Great Holocaust Trial" by Michael 
 Hoffman. (Doug Christie is Zuendel's lawyer):
 .
 Christie: Can you give me one scientific report that shows the 
 existence of gas chambers anywhere in Nazi-occupied territory?
 Hilberg: I am at a loss.
 Christie: You are because you can't. I want one report, before, 
 during or after the war that shows that someone was killed by the use 
 of those gases.
 Hilberg: You want an autopsy and I know of no autopsy.
 .
 I respect the work that Hilberg has put into this subject, but if he 
 cannot supply us with anything more substantive than the Gerstein 
 "confession" (as he attempted to do at the Zuendel trial!), we 
 obviously need to do a lot more work before we get to the bottom of 
 things.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 789       Wed Apr 08, 1992
TERMY                        at 07:38 EDT
 
In reply to:  Message 786  G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]

->-> The amount of gas trapped in the hair would be minimal and
 ->->subject   to quick dispersion in any air current. This presumes
 ->->the gassed   victims HAD hair...many didn't.

-> Although I can't recall which account it was, there is a so
 ->called   eyewitness account that mentions that after the gassings
 ->the hair was   shorn from the corpses, without the benefit of
 ->washing the HCN gas   from the corpses nor length aeration.

1.  According to the eyewitness accounts, who was tasked with cutting the hair
off gassing victims?

2.  Your comment is specifically invited upon the first sentence in my
statement, as shown above, regarding the amount of HCN which would be trapped
in the hair.

3.  Concerning other points I touched upon in my post #766, especially those
regarding the physiological aspects of expression of gases from the lungs of
deceased persons, you made no comment. Do you care to comment or will you
concede the issue?

 ---

Re Mr. Leuchter:

1.  Does Mr. Leuchter have an engineering degree?  If you cannot remember, it
might be advisable to either review Pooh's posts concerning his education, or,
since you apparently can contact him directly, ask him yourself.

2.  In the same fashion as outlined above, I would ask that you ascertain
whether or not Mr. Leuchter has appeared before the court concerning his
possession (or, more correctly, lack thereof) of an engineering license.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 790       Wed Apr 08, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 20:00 EDT
 
 773 Raven:

  > The report was apparently made public by someone other than Mr. Lueftl,
  > although Mr. Lueftl stands behind his report.

 Seeing as Mr. Leuftl has denied giving anyone his report and has stated that
 he doesn't associate with "such circles," I would hardly call that standing
 behind the report which was made public. After all, there is no verification
 that the report made public was HIS.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 791       Wed Apr 08, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 20:00 EDT
 
 776 Raven:

  > When Kremer says, "the camp of the annihilation," he is clearly speaking 
  > of something that is NOT extermination.

 From Cassell's German-English Dictionary:

 "Vernichtung: extermination, annihilation, extinction, destruction."

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 792       Wed Apr 08, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 20:01 EDT
 
 777 Raven:

  > Are you saying that Armontrout was guessing about how many people it might
  > take if they ever decided to use the gas chamber?

 Yes.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 793       Wed Apr 08, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 20:03 EDT
 
 778 Raven:

  > What's this 1972 document doing here?

 It is a clear demonstration that even in 1972 Degesch did not think that
 contact with skin was serious enough to require gloves or special suits.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 794       Wed Apr 08, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 20:03 EDT
 
 779 Raven:

  > According to Sanning, here are the figures for the Rumanian Jewish 
  > population:

 Here you go comparing apples and oranges again.

 Sanning's figures (which are inaccurate anyway) are for Romania with its 1947
 borders. Hilberg's are for Romania with its 1937 borders. Big difference,
 wouldn't you say?


 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 795       Wed Apr 08, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 20:04 EDT
 
 781 Raven:

  > Are you really sure you have a copy of the Leuchter Report?

 Yes, I'm sure that I have a copy of the Leucther Report. As I said when I
 first referred to the report:

  > There are different published editions of the Leuchter Report and the page
  > numbers do not coincide from edition to edition. Therefore, I will cite
  > the page number for the quotes I use but these page numbers might not be
  > the same as other editions.

 I find nothing in the "Birkenau - Kremas II, III, IV and V" which contradicts
 what Leuchter said on my page 8: "In Birkeanu, Kermas II, III, IV, V are
 collapsed, or rzed to the foundations." 

 In the "Birkenau" section, Leucther states: "The included drawings were
 generated from original blueprints obtained at the Auschwitz State Museum and
 observations made and measurements taken on location."

 And, under the section, "Design and Procedures at the Alleged Execution Gas
 Chamber" we read: "Kremas I, II, III, IV and V are described historically and
 on inspection were verified to have been CONVERTED [emphasis mine] mortuaries
 or morgues connected and housed in the same facility as crematories."

 Now, no where does Mr. Leuchter enlighten us as to what his inspection
 verified these structures to have been CONVERTED into....yet, he does
 indicate that his inspection and the historical description agree. Therefore,
 we are left to conclude that he agrees with the historical description that
 these structures were CONVERTED into gas chambers.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 796       Wed Apr 08, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 20:05 EDT
 
 782 Raven:

  > I did read your message. In it, you were trying to proof that each 
  > "gas chamber" would not have had to endure thousands of gassings 
  > apiece because the gassing load could have been spread among the many 
  > "gas chambers" available.

 Sorry, you missed the point. That's what happens when you take a message out
 of a thread between two people. Hans-Peter had made an unsubstantiated claim
 of "thousands" of times the gas chamber (notice the singular) was used. I
 asked him to support that statement. He then did so by operating on the
 assumption that 1/3 of the 1 million who were killed at Auschwitz were gassed
 AND the assumption that only one gas chamber was used.

 I then illustrated how the "thousands" of times used was fallacious because
 even when assuming that all 1 million were gassed (which was not the case)
 that no gas chamber would have had to be used a thousand times. This
 illustration encompassed a second assumption that also "was not the case"
 but, when accounting for the greatly exaggerated first assumption (i.e. 1
 million gassed), the second assumption brings the overall picture back into
 line with reality.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 797       Wed Apr 08, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 20:06 EDT
 
 783 Raven:

  > ...the total number of Jews "unaccounted for" after the war is around
  > 600,000, according to Carl Nordling and Walter Sanning, two demographers
  > who have studied this situation in depth.

 Let's look at what others have said about Sanning's work, shall we?

 "....clever veneer of scholarship.....has all the superficial attributes of
 a factual analysis...identify its flaws..." Professor Henry Huttenback, CCNY.

 "....a piece of sophisticated Holocaust denial....expose many of the errors
 in this work."  Professor John S. Conway, University of British Columbia.

 And, these are the "blurbs" that the publisher (IHR) chose to put on the
 jacket!


 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 798       Wed Apr 08, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 20:06 EDT
 
 784 Raven:

  > As to the silliness about explosive polymerization, DuPont thinks 
  > enough of it to mention it a couple times as a real danger in their 
  > literature on HCN. Even if the Germans did not know about this 
  > property (which is doubtful but barely possible), the behavior of the 
  > HCN gas would hardly have been changed by their lack of knowledge, 
  > and it would have gone right ahead and explosively polymerized if the 
  > conditions had been right.

 Well, you have admitted to not being a chemist. Maybe we should look at what
 a chemist has to say:

 "In the Leuchter report the gas concentration is stated as 0.32% and higher
 concentrations where the gas was introduced. When an explosive gas mixture
 fills only a small part of a room or is allowed to escape into the air, there
 would be no explosion."
                                          Josef Bailer, PhD

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 799       Wed Apr 08, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 20:08 EDT
 
 785 Raven:

  > On the contrary, I am taking her to task about these "salient 
  > points." If skin contact with Zyklon B is not a significant danger, 
  > the producers of the DuPont manual for HCN must be kidding when they 
  > inserted the following under the heading, "Personal Safety and First 
  > Aid":

 Once again you are trying to compare apples and oranges. DuPont has to worry
 about law suits and OSHA. Most US companies provide warnings greatly in
excess
 of what is needed just to protect themselves against law suits. OSHA, of
 course, is a different matter altogether.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 800       Wed Apr 08, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 20:08 EDT
 
 786 Raven:

  > Although I can't recall which account it was, there is a so-called 
  > eyewitness account that mentions that after the gassings the hair was 
  > shorn from the corpses, without the benefit of washing the HCN gas 
  > from the corpses nor length aeration.

 This was only true for those gassed directly upon arrival. Those who were
 selected after having been in the camp system had already had their heads
 shaved.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 801       Wed Apr 08, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 20:09 EDT
 
 788 Raven:

  > It may interest you to learn that Raul Hilberg testified for the 
  > Crown at the first Zuendel trial, and under cross-examination, this 
  > man who may well be the foremost exterminationist Holocaustician (he 
  > was at the time professor of Political Science at the University of 
  > Vermont) got his ears so thoroughly pinned back that he refused to 
  > appear as a witness at the second Zuendel trial.

 Actually, Raul Hilberg had committments which he had to fulfill as a
 professor at the Univeristy of Vermont and was unable to attend the second
 trial.

 This is yet another example of the spin doctors at work.


 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 802       Wed Apr 08, 1992
H.P.SKALIKS [Hans-Peter]     at 20:54 EDT
 
AH.STEIN...message 767

Historians usually don't use the encyclopedia as a source, but the
encyclopedia usually reports what is believed to be true at the time of
publication. If you don't like Funk & Wagnall, there are the big name products
such as Britannica and Groliers which all had the Auschwitz 4 million. I know
because we have these publications in our school.

I read and understood Pooh.Bah's messages perfectly well. (I do wish that you
could be a little less patronizing in your posts.) In this instance she is
wrong. The 4 million for Auschwitz obviously WAS the accepted figure for a
lengthy period of time, along with the 6 million total. The Jewish community
complained loudly enough when the Polish government replaced the signs at the
Auschwitz museum with signs showing smaller numbers. Now 1.1 million is the
accepted figure for Auschwitz, but according to you, this does not affect the
totals.

As a matter of fact, the camp records don't support even the 1.1 million, but
suggest fewer than 100 thousand fatalities at this camp.

I suspect, however, that no amount of research will make any difference since
your mind is closed on this topic. The 6 million has become a religious dogma
and any adjustments have become a heresy. This whole business is starting to
have the same taste as a debate with the so-called "scientific creationists".
One could throw a dead fish at their feet and they would argue that it is
alive, despite all evidence to the contrary.




 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 803       Wed Apr 08, 1992
J.WEIR9                      at 21:48 EDT
 
RE: S.PIERCE6 / Suchomel interview messages.
     I have several problems with the content of this interview. 1)
Suchomel states the gas chambers at Treblinka were at the top of a slope. The
area around there is very flat. I may be wrong, but I don't think there is a
slope there. 2) Suchomel states the gas chambers there were fed by the engine
of a tank. He also states a trainload could be processed in three hours or
less. A tank engine would be a diesel engine. It would take much more time
than that to kill two batches (men, then women, & children) using diesel
exhaust. The CO  content of which is less than 1 percent. In fact, the idea of
using a diesel   for such a purpose is stupid. 3) Suchomel says Auschwitz was
a "factory" vs. the Treblinka "production line" which was more "primitive". 
If Treblinka was so primitive, why is it credited with destroying 840,000
people in quite a bit less time than Auschwitz is sup- posed to have killed a
little more than a million? 4) Suchomel claims corpses burn very well with a
little rubbish, gasoline and  paper.  This is nonsense.  It requires large
amounts of fuel to destroy a body. Take a look at the photos of the pyres
constructed for the victims of Dresden and you will see what I mean. 5) I have
a hard time believing the women would quietly stand around waiting their turn
to go into the gas chambers. . Considering the situation in which the
interview took place, is there any rea- son to consider this testimony any
more reliable than a lot of the other tes- timony concerning the extermination
of the Jews of Europe? 
                              [Chigger]
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 804       Wed Apr 08, 1992
C.FINK4 [Carl]               at 23:29 EDT
 
>> Furthermore, I don't care what your English thesaurii (and etc.)
 >>[sic] say,  it is NOT okay to have a sentence that translates into
 >>perfectly good  English as "the camp of the annihilation" and
 >>change it to  "extermination camp" and then to "death camp" and
 >>then to "sadistic  Nazi baby-murder camp" simply because it
 >>pleases you to do so. When  Kremer says, "the camp of the
 >>annihilation," he is clearly speaking  of something that is NOT
 >>extermination.

  Please, Raven - this is just silly.  The German word translates correctly
EITHER WAY - as "extermination" or "annihilation".  And despite your false and
misleading use of quotes, Pooh nowhere translates the words as "sadistic Nazi
baby-murder camp".  Try to stick to the actual discussion.

>> You are also leaping to a conclusion that is unsupported by what
 >> little Lenski does say about this matter. As I posted in 719:
 >>"Armontrout described for the court, with the aid of slides, the
 >> incredibly complex business of conducting a lethal gassing. He
 >>noted  that 38 people 'are closely involved on-site' in such an
 >>operation in  Missouri, while more than 200 participate
 >>indirectly." Are you saying  that Armontrout was guessing about
 >>how many people it might take if  they ever decided to use the gas
 >>chamber? Give me a break.

  Yes.  If he hasn't done it, he's guessing.  He may be guessing based on
actual plans - but those plans are guesses, just as if you or I or Leuchter or
any other nonexpert had made them.

  Raven, your 785:  you are reading a lot into DuPont's safety regulations,
which from the phrasing, seem to be talking about huge quantities.  In any
case, they are most certainly more worried about lawsuits and employee
injuries than the Nazis were - the Nazis were only risking the lives of Jews.

  As a science-type myself, I point out that in the real world, people tend to
ignore most safety regulations.  I myself have worked with quantities of
formaldehyde that are now considered far too dangerous to be allowed, and
splashed myself with several acids (clumsy people like me still have to do lab
work).  It is the function and nature of a safety manual to overstate dangers.

  Raven, your 787:  well, I'd like a reference on the evaporation rate of HCN
from Zyclon B because if the tin is empty in 5 minutes, it indicates that the
gas could spread through the execution chamber and kill everyone fairly
easily, whereas if it requires 12 hours, obviously nobody was gassed with
Zyclon B.  Why not give a range of temperatures, say from 10C to 35C (both of
which probably ocurred at different times as OUTDOOR temperatures at the
camps).

  By the way, the Zyclon B manual makes no sense when it talks about using
"weak acids" as stabilizers - any acid at all will cause HCN to become gaseous
faster, as I recall.  They may mean something like "salts of weak acids", in
other words "weak bases" - although I don't think that'd work either, on
second thought.  In fact, I can't imagine what they do mean.  (What in the
world are "substances splitting off acids"?)

  Hans-Peter, your 802:  the encyclopedias, even the famous Brittanica, are
full of totally wrong nonsense.  If it were on- topic, I could send pages and
pages of encyclopedic mistakes. Figures in encyclopedias are just not the same
as the "accepted figure used by scholars".  They just aren't.

  I rather resent being compared to a Creationist, sir.  As a science teacher
and neo-biologist, I have spent a fair amount of time and effort fighting
those [insult deleted].  If you look at this topic, you'll notice that the
scholars are not exactly in agreement with the Deniers.

                                Carl Fink
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 805       Wed Apr 08, 1992
D.BRIN1                      at 23:40 EDT
 
Now, now, Hans-Peter (Message 802): Your message appears to imply that those
plaques at Auschwitz stated that four million Jews were killed at Auschwitz. 
Do you know this to be so?

Mr. Raven: Once again you have dodged the obvious conclusion... the ONLY
logical conclusion that can be made of Fred Leuchter's "analysis" of
Auschwitz.  The core of his argument is his comparison of the delousing
chambers with the homicidal gas chambers, and this comparison is rendered
meaningless by his failure to comprehend that the two sets of chambers were
exposed to VASTLY different amounts of gas, under vastly different conditions.

Your first response was to this point was to deny that little bugs could "root
around" the stuff for hours without dying. Now you have posted a strategic
retreat, not quite denying this fact, but not quite admitting it either.  The
closest you have come to an admission is a citation of Leuchter's concession
that, well, yes, SOME bugs are more resistant to cyanide gas than humans. 

Hmmm..... I just noticed that, if Pooh.Bah's quotation of Fred  Leuchter
(message 795) is correct, then the homicidal chambers were   housed in the
same facilities as the crematoria. Let's see now. It gets mighty hot around
crematoria, doesn't it?

Looks like the Denial Fantasy is running out of time.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 806       Wed Apr 08, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri]            at 23:54 EDT
 
J.WEIR9 [CHIGGER]

My advice to you would be to check out the SHOAH video series, which shows the
Treblinka slopes in question as well as the corroborating statements of others
who were not present during the Suchomel interview, but who were part of the
Treblinka "production line".

>> Considering the situation in which the interview took place, is there any
reason to consider this testimony any more reliable than a lot of the other
testimony concerning the extermination of the Jews of Europe?

What situation is it that we should be considering?  Suchomel is a former Nazi
SS Unterscharfuhrer who gave an interview of his own volition.

>> A tank engine would be a diesel engine. It would take much more time than
that to kill two batches (men, then women, & children) using diesel exhaust.

If they weren't dead, more's the pity ...

"I remember once they were still alive.  The ovens were full, and the people
lay on the ground.  They were all moving,they were coming back to life, and
when they were thrown into the ovens they were all conscious.  Alive.  They
could feel the fire burn them."  (Shoah)

>> Suchomel claims corpses burn very well with a little rubbish, gasoline and 
paper.  This is nonsense.

Suchomel said nothing about "a little."  That was your invention. It doesn't
strike me as nonsense.  The fire was burning constantly in the pit.

>> If Treblinka was so primitive, why is it credited with destroying 840,000
people in quite a bit less time than Auschwitz is supposed to have killed a
little more than a million?

Suchomel makes the point that Treblinka's relative primitiveness did not
hinder its efficacy.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 807       Thu Apr 09, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri]            at 00:05 EDT
 
Apparently the decimation of European Jewry has been relegated by a few of our
esteemed participants here, to an esoteric chemistry debate dominated by some
highly "motivated" non-scientists.  What is it that compels you to discard the
judgement of the experts? This is an insult to my intelligence, to which I
will not continue to subject myself.

One of you asserts, in the presence of an expert, that since an encyclopedia
entry contains two high profile numbers - 6 million and 4 million - one must
be a subset of the other. Kindly produce from a credible source, a summation
of the 6 million that includes this mistaken 4 million.  If you are correct,
that shouldn't be too difficult.  Of course our own expert Pooh.Bah says the
Polish authorities were merely bringing their memorials into accord with
historical evidence - historical evidence which continues to support the
estimated 5.1 to 6 million Jewish victims of the Holocaust.

I renew my question to the doubting Thomases among you, have you seen the
film, SHOAH?  In nine and half hours without a single frame of attrocity
newsreels, the reality of the Holocaust is confirmed.  Leaving aside the
Jewish survivors, what say you of the German SS, Polish, Czech, etc.,
participants and witnesses? What say you of the railroad records, the diaries,
the documents, the evidence that there used to be a European Jewry which is no
more?  Did any of you bother to watch the attocity film, A PAINFUL REMINDER?

Before I PER IGN this subject, I leave you with another series of Lanzmann's
interviews in SHOAH.  Nazi extermination of the Jews started long before
Auschwitz.  Mr. Hans-Peter, according to your encyclopedia, how many Jews died
in the Warsaw ghetto?
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 808       Thu Apr 09, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri]            at 00:07 EDT
 
Dr. Franz Grassler (Germany), deputy to Dr. Auerswald, Nazi commissioner of
the Warsaw ghetto

Lanzmann: You don't remember those days?

Grassler: Not much. I recall more clearly my prewar mountaineering trips than
the entire war period and those days in Warsaw. All in all, those were bad
times. It's a fact: we tend to forget, thank God, the bad times more easily
than the good. The bad times are repressed.

Lanzmann: I'll help you remember. In Warsaw you were Dr. Auerswald's deputy.

Grassler: Yes.

Lanzmann: Dr. Auerswald was. . .

Grassler: . . . commissioner of the "Jewish district" of Warsaw.

Lanzmann: Dr. Grassler, this is Czerniakow's diary.  [Adam Czerniakow was
president of the Judenrat (Jewish Council) of Warsaw.] You're mentioned in it.

Grassler: It's been printed, it exists?

Lanzmann: He kept a diary that was recently published. He wrote on July 7,
1941 . . .

Grassler: July 7, 1941? That's the first time I've relearned a date. May I
take notes? After all, it interests me too. So in July I was already there!

Lanzmann: He wrote on July 7 1941: ". . . morning at the Community," that is,
at the Jewish Council headquarters,  ". . . and later with Auerswald,
Schlosser . . . "

Grassler: Schlosser was . . .

Lanzmann: ". . . and Grassler, on routine matters." That's the first time. . .

Grassler: . . . that my name is mentioned? Yes, but there were three of us.
Schlosser was in . . . the "economic department." I think he had to do with
economics.

Lanzmann: And the second time was on July 22.

Grassler: He wrote every day?

Lanzmann: Yes, every day. It's quite amazing . . . .

Grassler: That the diary was saved. It's amazing that it was saved.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 809       Thu Apr 09, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri]            at 00:07 EDT
 
Lanzmann: Did you go into the ghetto?

Grassler: Seldom. When I had to visit Czerniakow.

Lanzmann: What were the conditions like?

Grassler: Awful. Yes, appalling. I never went back when I saw what it was
like. Unless I had to. In the whole period I think I only went once or twice.
We at the Commission tried to maintain the ghetto for its labor force, and
especially to prevent epidemics, like typhus. That was the big danger.

Lanzmann: Yes. Can you tell us about typhus?

Grassler: I'm not a doctor. I only know that typhus is a very dangerous
epidemic that wipes people out like the plague, and that it can't be confined
to a ghetto. If typhus had broken out -- I don't think it did, but there was
fear that it might -- it would have hit the Poles and the Germans.

Why was there typhus in the ghetto? I don't know if there was, but there was a
danger, because of the famine. People didn't get enough to eat. That's what
was so awful. We at the Commission did our best to feed the ghetto, so it
wouldn't become an incubator of epidemics. Aside from humanitarian factors,
that's what mattered. If typhus had broken out -- and it didn't -- it wouldn't
have stopped at the ghetto.

Lanzmann: Czerniakow also wrote that one of the reasons the ghetto was walled
in was because of this German fear.

Grassler: Yes, absolutely! Fear of typhus.

Lanzmann: He said the Germans always associated Jews with typhus.

Grassler: Maybe. I'm not sure if there were grounds for it.  But imagine that
mass of people packed into the ghetto.  There weren't only the Warsaw Jews,
but others who came later. The danger kept on growing.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 810       Thu Apr 09, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri]            at 00:08 EDT
 
Lanzmann: The Germans had a policy on the Warsaw ghetto. What was that policy?

Grassler: You're asking more than I know. The policy that wound up with
extermination, the "final solution" -- we knew nothing about it, of course.
Our job was to maintain the ghetto and try to preserve the Jews as a work
force. The Commissariat's goal in fact, was very different from the one that
later led to extermination.

Lanzmann: Yes, but do you know how many people died in the ghetto each month
in 1941?

Grassler: I don't know now, if I ever knew.

Lanzmann: But you did know. There are exact figures.

Grassler: I probably knew . . .

Lanzmann: Yes. Five thousand a month.

Grassler: Five thousand a month? Yes, well . . .

Lanzmann: That's a lot.

Grassler: That's a lot, of course. But there were far too many people in the
ghetto. That was it.

Lanzmann: Far too many.

Grassler: Far too many.

Lanzmann: My question is philosophical. What does a ghetto mean, in your
opinion?

Grassler: History is full of ghettos, going back centuries, for all I know.
Persecution of the Jews wasn't a German invention, and it didn't start with
World War II. The Poles persecuted them too.

Lanzmann: But a ghetto like Warsaw's, in a great capital, in the heart of the
city . . .

Grassler: That was unusual.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 811       Thu Apr 09, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri]            at 00:08 EDT
 
Lanzmann: You say you wanted to maintain the ghetto.

Grassler: Our mission wasn't to annihilate the ghetto, but to keep it alive,
to maintain it.

Lanzmann: What does "alive" mean in such conditions?

Grassler: That was the problem. That was the whole problem.

Lanzmann: But people were dying in the streets. There were bodies everywhere.

Grassler: Exactly. That was the paradox.

Lanzmann: You see it as a paradox?

Grassler: I'm sure of it.

Lanzmann: Why? Can you explain?

Grassler: No.

Lanzmann: Why not?

Grassler: Explain what! But the fact is . . .

Lanzmann: That wasn't "maintaining"! Jews were being exterminated daily in the
ghetto. Czerniakow wrote . . .

Grassler: To maintain it properly we'd have needed more substantial rations
and less crowding.

Lanzmann: Why weren't the rations more humane? Why weren't they? That was a
German decision, wasn't it?

Grassler: There was no real decision to starve the ghetto. The big decision to
exterminate came much later.

Lanzmann: That's right, later. In 1942.

Grassler: Precisely!

Lanzmann: A year later.

Grassler: Just so. Our mission, as I recall it, was to manage the ghetto, and
naturally with those inadequate rations and the over-crowding, a high, even
excessive death rate was inevitable.

Lanzmann: Yes. What does "maintain" the ghetto mean in such conditions: the
food, sanitation, etc.? What could the Jews do against such measures?

Grassler: They couldn't do anything.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 812       Thu Apr 09, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri]            at 00:09 EDT
 
Lanzmann: Why did Czerniakow commit suicide?

Grassler: Because he realized there was no future for the ghetto. He probably
saw before I did that the Jews would be killed. I suppose the Jews already had
their excellent secret services. They were too well informed, better than we
were.

Lanzmann: Think so?

Grassler: Yes, I do.

Lanzmann: The Jews knew more than you?

Grassler: I'm convinced of it!

Lanzmann: lt's hard to believe.

Grassler: The German administration was never informed of what would happen to
the Jews.

Lanzmann: When was the first deportation to Treblinka?

Grassler: Before Auerswald's suicide, I think.

Lanzmann: Auerswald's?

Grassler: I mean Czerniakow's. Sorry.

Lanzmann: July 22.

Grassler: Those are dates . . . So the deportations began July 22, 1942.

Lanzmann: Yes.

Grassler: To Treblinka.

Lanzmann: And Czerniakow killed himself July 23.

Grassler: Yes, that is the next day. So that was it: he'd realized that his
idea -- it was his idea, I think, of working in good faith with the Germans,
in the Jews' best interests -- he'd realized this idea, this dream, was
destroyed.

Lanzmann: That the idea was a dream.

Grassler: Yes. And when the dream faded, he took the logical way out.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 813       Thu Apr 09, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri]            at 00:09 EDT
 
Lanzmann: Did you think this idea of a ghetto was a good one? A sort of self-
management?

Grassler: That's right.

Lanzmann: A mini-state?

Grassler: It worked well.

Lanzmann: But it was self-management for death, wasn't it?

Grassler: We know that now. But at the time . . .

Lanzmann: Even then!

Grassler: No!

Lanzmann: Czerniakow wrote: "We're puppets, we have no power."

Grassler: Yes.

Lanzmann: "No power."

Grassler: Sure . . . that was . . .

Lanzmann: You Germans were the overlords.

Grassler: Yes.

Lanzmann: The overlords. The masters.

Grassler: Obviously.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 814       Thu Apr 09, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri]            at 00:10 EDT
 
Lanzmann: Czerniakow was merely a tool.

Grassler: Yes, but a good tool. Jewish self-management worked well, I can tell
you.

Lanzmann: lt worked well for three years: 1941, 1942, 1943. . . two and a half
years. And in the end . . .

Grassler: In the end . . .

Lanzmann: "Worked well" for what? To what end?

Grassler: For self-preservation.

Lanzmann: No! For death!

Grassler: Yes, but . . .

Lanzmann: Self-management, self-preservation . . . for death!

Grassler: That's easy to say now.

Lanzmann: You admitted the conditions were inhuman. Atrocious . . . horrible!

Grassler: Yes.

Lanzmann: So it was clear even then . . .

Grassler: No! Extermination wasn't clear. Now we see the result.

Lanzmann: Extermination isn't so simple. One step was taken, then another, and
another, and another. . .

Grassler: Yes.

Lanzmann: But to understand the process, one must. . .

Grassler: I repeat: extermination did not take place in the ghetto, not ar
first. Only with the evacuations.

Lanzmann: Evacuations?

Grassler: The evacuations to Treblinka. The ghetto could have been wiped out
with weapons, as was finally done after the rebellion. After I'd left. But at
the start . . . Mr. Lanzmann, this is getting us nowhere. We're reaching no
new conclusions.

Lanzmann: I don't think we can.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 815       Thu Apr 09, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri]            at 00:10 EDT
 
Grassler: I didn't know then what I know now.

Lanzmann: You weren't a nonentity.

Grassler: But I was!

Lanzmann: You were important.

Grassler: You overestimate my role.

Lanzmann: No.  You were second to the commissioner of the Warsaw "Jewish
district."

Grassler: But I had no power.

Lanzmann: lt was something.

You were part of the vast German power structure.

Grassler: Correct. But a small part. You overestimate the authority of a
deputy of twenty-eight then.

Lanzmann: You were thirty.

Grassler: Twenty-eight.

Lanzmann: At thirty you were mature.

Grassler: Yes, but for a lawyer who got his degree at twenty-seven, it's just
a beginning.

Lanzmann: You had a doctorate.

Grassler: The title proves nothing.

Lanzmann: Did Auerswald have one too?

Grassler: No. But the title's irrelevant.

Lanzmann: Doctor of Law . . . What did you do after the war?

Grassler: I was with a mountaineering publishing house. I wrote and published
mountain guide books. I published a mountain climbers' magazine.

Lanzmann: Is climbing your main interest?

Grassler: Yes.

Lanzmann: The mountains, the air. . .

Grassler: Yes.

Lanzmann: The sun, the pure air. . .

Grassler: Not like the ghetto air.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 816       Thu Apr 09, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri]            at 00:11 EDT
 
From SHOAH, Excerpt of Lanzmann's interview of historian Raul Hilberg

Hilberg: Adam Czerniakow began keeping a diary the very first week of the war,
before the Germans entered Warsaw, and before he took over the responsibility
of leading the Jewish community, and he kept his diary in daily entries until
the afternoon of the day that he ended his life. He left us a window through
which we can observe a Jewish community, the terminal hours of its life, a
dying community, which began dying, from the beginning. And in that sense Adam
Czerniakow did something very important. He didn't save the Jews --in that
respect he was like other Jewish leaders-- but he left us a record of what had
happened to them in a day-by-day fashion. And you could see that he did all
this on top of working a seven day week, for he was a man without vacations,
without any day off. And yet every day, almost every day, he had an entry. He
might record the weather, where he went in the morning, and then all the
things that happened. But he never failed to write. That was something that
moved him, pushed him, compelled him throughout the years --almost three years-
- of his life under the Germans, and in that sense perhaps because he wrote in
such a prosaic style we now know what went on in his mind, how things were
perceived, recognized, reacted to. We even know from what he didn't say just
what it is that went through this community. There are constant references in
the diary to the end. He talks in terms of Greek mythology, and he refers to
himself as wearing a poisoned cloak, as Hercules once did. He has a feeling of
doom for the Jews or Warsaw, and there were remarkable passages in the diary
that illustrate what he meant. He is sarcastic enough if that is the word, to
remark in December of 1941 that now the intelligentsia were starving to death.
And he even has . . .

Lanzmann: Why does he mentions specifically the intelligentsia?

Hilberg: He mentions it because there is a difference, owing to the class
structure within the ghetto, in vulnerability to starvation. The lower classes
died first. The middle class died a little bit later. The intelligentsia were
of course at the top of the middle class, and once they started dying the
situation was really very, very bad. And that's the meaning of that. Now we're
dealing with a ghetto where the average consumption was about 1200 calories,
you see.  He mentions with approval, with approval, that one petitioner came
to him for money and said: "I want money not in order to eat, I want money for
rent, to pay the rent for my apartment.  I don't want to die in the street." 
This is the kind of comment that Czerniakow writes down in his diary: the
meaning of dignity, the approval.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 817       Thu Apr 09, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri]            at 00:12 EDT
 
Lanzmann: You mean he spoke of a petition from somebody? He said: "Give me
money"?

Hilberg: Yes, but not for food. "Give me money so that I can pay the rent,
because I don't want to die in the street." There were people dropping dead in
the street. They were covered with newspaper.


Lanzmann: Why was housing more important to him than food?

Hilberg: This particular individual wasn't eating enough to remain alive, and
didn't want to be dying of hunger while collapsing in the street.

Lanzmann: This means that death was not avoidable, as was dying outside?

Hilberg: Of course, of course, of course. It is one of these sardonic jokes of
which he had quite a few. He always had strange description: of a band playing
in front of a funeral parlor, of a hearse with drunken drivers, of a dead
child running around the grounds. He had rather sardonic comments about death.
He lived with death.

There was a lady somewhere in Warsaw in love with a man, and the man was hit,
grievously wounded, with his insides coming out. This woman stuffed the
insides back with her own hands. She carried the man to a first-aid station.
He died. He was buried in a mass grave. She disinterred him and buried him.
This, to Czerniakow--this simple episode--as the ultimate of virtue.

Lanzmann: He is never revolted?

Hilberg: He doesn't bother. Or he doesn't express the revolt; he doesn't
express the disgust except with other Jews, Jews who either deserted the
community by emigrating early, or Jews who like Ganzweich collaborated with
the Germans. And for the Germans he doesn't have words of disgust. I think
he's beyond such words. He hasn't any criticism of the Germans themselves, and
only seldom allows himself to make a remark which indicates that he opposed
something by arguing. He very seldom argues with the Germans. He pleads, he
appeals, but he doesn't argue with them. He does argue when he's forced not
only to build the wall but to pay for it. And he says that if the wall is
being put up as a hygienic measure to prevent Jewish epidemics from engulfing
the Polish or German population outside, then why is it, why is it that the
Jews have to pay for it? The people who get the protection should be paying
for the medicine. If the wall is medicine, let the Germans pay. And Auerswald,
the ghetto commissar, says that's a very nice argument that he, Czerniakow,
might bring up at an international conference some day, but for now he'll pay
for the wall. Czerniakow writes all this down, including Auerswald's reply to
his own argument. And that's about the most he ever allows himself to say in
criticism of what the Germans are doing. So he takes for granted, he assumes,
he anticipates everything that is happening to the Jews, including the worst.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 818       Thu Apr 09, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri]            at 00:13 EDT
 
Lanzmann: Czerniakow saw a film before the war where the captain of a sinking
ship gives an order to the orchestra to play jazz. In the entry of July 8,
1942, not even two weeks before his death, he identifies himself with this
captain of the sinking ship.

Hilberg: Yes, yes . . .

Lanzmann: Of course there is no jazz but there is a kind of children's
festival. . .

Hilberg: Chess tournaments, yes. There's theater, a children's festival,
there's everything going on until the last moment. But more importantly, these
are symbols. These outward cultural activities, these festivals, they're nor
simply morale-building devices, which is what Czerniakow identifies them to
be. Rather, they are symbolic of the entire posture of the ghetto, which is in
the process of healing or trying to heal sick people who are soon going to be
gassed, which is vying to educate youngsters who will never be growing up,
which is in the process of trying to find work for people and increase
employment in a situation which is doomed to failure. They are going on as
though life were continuing. They have an official faith in the survivability
of the ghetto, even after all indications are to the contrary. The strategy
continues to be: "We must continue, for this is the only strategy that is
left. We must minimize the injury, minimize the damage, minimize the losses,
but we must continue." And continuity is the only thing in all oz this.

Lanzmann: But obviously when he compares himself to this captain of a sinking
ship, he knows that everything . . .

Hilberg: He knows, he knows. I think he knew or he sensed or he believed the
end was coming, perhaps as early as October 1941, when he has a note about
alarming rumors as to the fate of Warsaw Jewry in the spring. This is also
when Bischoff, the head of the transfer office, tells him that, after all, the
ghetto is only a temporary device, without specifying for what. He knows
because in January he has premonitions or reports or rumors about Lithuanians
coming. He is concerned when Auerswald disappears and is going to Berlin,
right around January so, 1942, which we now know to have been the date of the
"final solution" conference in Berlin, the Wannasee Conference. And even
though Czerniakow in Warsaw, behind the walls, has no idea of such a
conference going on in Berlin, yet he is concerned that Auerswald, the ghetto
commissar, is going to Berlin. He can't imagine why, unless it is for a
purpose that bodes no good. And so in February there are more rumors. In March
the rumors are becoming even more specific. He now begins to record the
departure of Jews from the Lublin ghetto, or Mielec, or Krakow, and Lvov. And
he recognizes that something may well be in the offing for Warsaw itself. And
every subsequent entry is replete with the anxiety that he feels.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 819       Thu Apr 09, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri]            at 00:13 EDT
 
Lanzmann: When Czerniakow hears rumors about the deportations from Lublin,
Lvov, and Krakow around March 1942 -- and we now, know that the transports
went to Belzec -- does he ask in his diary where they are shipped, what
happens to them?

Hilberg: He never does. He never mentions any destination. But we cannot
really decide that he had no knowledge whatsoever about these camps. All we
know is that he didn't mention them in the diary. And we also know, of course,
from other sources that the existence of death camps was already known in
Warsaw, certainly by June.

Lanzmann: The last entry takes place how long before his suicide? The last
entry precedes his death by a few hours. What does be write?

Hilberg: "It is three o'clock. So far four thousand are ready to go. The
orders are that there must be nine thousand by four o'clock." This is the last
entry of a man on the afternoon of the day that he commits suicide.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 820       Thu Apr 09, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri]            at 00:14 EDT
 
Lanzmann: The first transport of the Jews of Warsaw for Treblinka was the
twenty-second of July, 1942, and he committed suicide the day after.

Hilberg: That's right. In other words, on the twenty-second, you see, on the
twenty-second he is called in by Sturmbahnfuehrer Hofle, who was in charge of
the resettlement staff, who has come in there for the express purpose of
taking the Jews out of Warsaw. Hofle tells him on the twenty-second, ... And
here,incidentally, is another fascinating point: Czerniakow is so agitated
that he doesn't put the dates down correctly-instead of saying July 22, 1942,
he says July 22, 1940. Hofle calls him in at ten o'clock, disconnects the
telephones, children are removed from the playground opposite the community
building, and then he is told that all Jews irrespective of sex and age, with
certain exceptions, will be deported to the east. To the east. Again the east.
And that by 4 P.M. today a contingent of six thousand people must be provided.
And this at the minimum will be the daily quota. Now he is told that at ten in
the morning of July 22, 1942. He then goes on. He keeps appealing. He wants
certain exemptions. He wants the council staff to be exempt. He wants the
staff of the welfare organizations to be exempt, and he is terribly worried
that the orphans will be deported, and repeatedly brings up the orphans. And
on the next day he still doesn't have assurance that the orphans are going to
be saved. Now if he cannot be the caretaker of the orphans, then he has lost
his war, he has lost his struggle.

Lanzmann: Why the orphans?

Hilberg: They are the most helpless element in the community. They are the
little children, its future, who have lost their parents. They cannot possibly
do anything on their own. If the orphans do not have exemption, if he doesn't
even get the promise, the words spoken by a German SS officer, not even
assurances which as he knows cannot be counted, if he cannot even get the
words, what can he think? If he cannot take care of the children, what else
can he do?

Some people report that he wrote a note after he closed the book on the diary
in which he said: "They want me to kill the children with my own hands."
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 821       Thu Apr 09, 1992
P.BRADEN [pat.b]             at 00:40 EDT
 
Raven says; "I have never claimed to be good at chemistry, but I can read. And
what I read tells me that although we may be dealing with HCN gas once the
inert carrier of the Zyklon-B releases the gas, the release of HCN gas is not
the same as pouring liquid HCN on the floor (or anywhere else). note this
well: we are not dealing with a liquid." I certainly agree with your
assessement of your knowledge of chemistry. But then you do carry on like you
know what your talking about, don't you?

Zyklon-b has the liquid HCN adsorbed onto the surface of an inert substrate.
Since the vapor pressure remains the same, the rate of evaporation doesn't
decrease. In fact, because of the increase in surface area (assuming the
zyklon-b paricles are small), it increases. In which case "the release of HCN
gas is not the same as pouring it on the floor." It's much quicker. Rablin
says the particles "felt like velvet and were cool and damp." The coolness was
caused by the rapid evaporation of the liquid HCN and the dampness speaks for
itself.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 822       Thu Apr 09, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 01:42 EDT
 
 802 Hans-Peter:

  > The 4 million for Auschwitz obviously WAS the accepted figure for a
  > lengthy period of time, along with the 6 million total.

 The question is, though, accepted by whom? What was the figure of 4 million
 anyway? Those plaques never said "4 million Jews" so, like Raven, you are
 comparing apples and oranges.

 The first two complete histories of the Holocaust were written by Reitlinger
 and Hilberg. Neither one of them ever claimed 4 million Jews being
 exterminated at Auschwitz. The plaques at Auschwitz never claimed that 4
 million JEWS were exterminated there. In fact, those plaques never mentioned
 Jews at all.

 As has been stated publicly (such as the recent CNN broadcast on which
 S.PIERCE6 reported in this TOPic), the number of NON-JEWS was over-estimated
 by the Communist gov't in Poland and the Jewish deaths were denied in their
 version of history.

 Are you now denying that non-Jews were exterminated by the Nazis?

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 823       Thu Apr 09, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 01:42 EDT
 
 803 Chigger:

  > Suchomel states the gas chambers there were fed by the engine
  > of a tank. He also states a trainload could be processed in three hours or
  > less. A tank engine would be a diesel engine. It would take much more time
  > than that to kill two batches (men, then women, & children) using diesel
  > exhaust. The CO  content of which is less than 1 percent.

 As has been discussed in this TOPic already, any engine (including diesel)
 can be adjusted for an increased CO output.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 824       Thu Apr 09, 1992
A.WEBB1 [HRM]                at 03:57 EDT
 
Wow!! How do you guys know all this stuff?

Has anyone seen Raske's film on the holocaust?  To artsy for this discussion? 
But, then again, art is related to emotion -- and there's plenty of that afoot
here.

HRM
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 825       Thu Apr 09, 1992
AH.STEIN                     at 07:00 EDT
 
 802  Hans-Peter:

 >Historians usually don't use the encyclopedia as a source, but the
 encyclopedia usually reports what is believed to be true at the time of
 publication.

 As Pooh.Bah has repeatedly pointed out, that was not the case here.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 826       Thu Apr 09, 1992
TERMY                        at 07:15 EDT
 
 Message  16   G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]
 -> However, I accept the fact that you have no more evidence to 
 ->support your claim that there was a policy of extermination, while 
 ->pointing out yet again that you have failed to establish your claim 
 ->in the least.

 Message 463  G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]
 -> Because there were no systematic German programs of genocide...
 -------------------
 My Message 250:   

  Today I can confirm that our objective, to solve the Jewish problem 
 for  Lithuania, has been achieved by EK 3.  In Lithuania there are no 
 more Jews, apart from Jewish workers and their families. 

 [The above follows detailed accounting of the killing of over 130,000 
 persons]
 -----
 My Message 343:

  5.  Furthermore, it was proposed to sterilize all those Jewesses 
 who are still fertile so that the Jewish problem would finally be 
 solved with the present generation.
 ------
 Message 346

  When reaching its lawful verdict on the charges against the accused,
  the SS and Police Supreme Court was guided by the following
  considerations:

  1.  The accused shall not be punished because of the actions against
  the Jews as such.  THE JEWS HAVE TO BE EXTERMINATED AND NONE OF THE
  JEWS THAT WERE KILLED IS ANY GREAT LOSS. Although the accused should
  have recognized that THE EXTERMINATION OF THE JEWS WAS THE DUTY OF
  KOMMANDOS WHICH HAVE BEEN SET UP ESPECIALLY FOR THIS PURPOSE, he
  should be excused for considering himself to have the authority to
  take part in the extermination of Jewry himself. [emphasis mine] 

 -------
 My Message #349 elaborates upon Msg #346
 -------
 My Message 403:

  The aim of Einsatzkommando 2 from the beginning was a radical 
 solution of the Jewish problem through the execution of all Jews.  
 -------
 My Message 404:

 ...It should be obvious that one cannot solve the Polish problem by
 liquidating the poles in the same way as the Jews.  Such a solution to 
 the Polish problem would burden the German people with guilt for years 
 to come and lose us the sympathies of people everywhere, particularly 
 since our neighbors would be bound to reckon that they would be  
 treated in the same way when the time came." 
 ----------
 My Message 405:

 Carrying out orders, the Security Police were determined to solve
 the Jewish question with all possible means and most decisively...It 
 was anticipated from the beginning that the Jewish problem in the 
 Ostland [Baltic] would not be solved solely through pogroms.  On the 
 other hand, in accordance with basic orders, the cleansing operation 
 of the Security Police had the goal of the most comprehensive 
 elimination possible of the Jews. Extensive executions were thus 
 carried out by special units in the cities and the plains. 
 -------------
 My Message 564:

 The Judenaktion on 13 November alleviated the situation [of severe
 overcrowding] perceptibly...

 Upon my arrival there were about 25,000 Jews in the Slonim area, 16,000
 in the actual town itself...It was not possible to set up a ghetto as
 neither barbed wire nor guard manpower was available. I thus immediately
 began preparations for a large-scale action...

 ...The action carried out by the SD on 13 November rid me of 
 unnecessary mouths to feed. The some 7,000 Jews now present in the 
 town of Slonim have all been allocated jobs. They are working 
 willingly because of the constant fear of death. Early next year they 
 will be rigorously checked and sorted for a further reduction. 

 ...all Jews will be eradicated with the exception of all but the most 
 essential craftsmen and skilled workers...

 ...so that Jews will finally be dispensable in the skilled craft and 
 trade sector and can be eliminated. 
 ---------
 My Message 731

 From a report from the Reichsfuehrer-SS (Himmler) to Hitler.  

          August:    September:   Oktober:    November:   insgesamt:
          -------    ----------   --------    ---------   ----------
  [2]c)  Juden exekutiert
         31246      165282       95735        70948       363211
 --------------
 ALL of the above excerpts are taken from German wartime reports, 
 correspondence and documents.  There are no excerpts from confessions 
 or post-war documents of any sort.

 Mr. Raven, in light of the above excerpts, do you still maintain that 
 there was no policy of extermination?  

 Do you suggest that Hitler was unaware of the large number of "Juden 
 Exekutiert"?  
 --------------
 Just out of curiousity, is there anyone here (besides Mr. Raven and 
 Mr./Ms. Rungu, if that entity is still about) who does not find the 
 above sufficient evidence of a policy of genocide?  Does anyone hold 
 any doubt as to whether or not Hitler was aware of such a policy, or, 
 at the very least, knowledge that large numbers of Jews were being 
 killed?
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 827       Thu Apr 09, 1992
A.WEBB1 [HRM]                at 19:55 EDT
 
I can't imagine anyone actually attempting to argue that extermination of Jews
was not a part -- almost carried out -- of Hitler's plan.  What might be
important to do right now is to get as many clear stories from still-living
eye witnesses etc. -- just to make the record as clear as possible (though it
seems plain to me).  Then again, those who want to argue that the murder of
millions of Jews did not happen won't really care about documentation -- seems
to me that the issue isn't even really =just how many= died... even if (and I
don't think so) the numbers are half or less of what's generally believed,
what difference does that make?  We =know= that Hitler needed a group upon
which he could focus his anger -- his insanity -- he used the Jews.  If only
one Jew was murdered in such a campaign it would be one too many and a
holocaust of itself.

A.Webb1, blue-eyed, blonde haired, germanic descended, and lover of Jews and
all humans.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 828       Thu Apr 09, 1992
H.P.SKALIKS [Hans-Peter]     at 21:48 EDT
 
C.FINK4...message 804

I agree with you Carl that outright denial is an extreme position which would
be difficult or impossible to support scientifically. I just have trouble
accepting stories which are inconsistent or numbers which don't add up to the
claimed totals. It grates against my training as a mathematical physicist.

It bothers me to see these sudden shifts of position when the Russians have
only recently admitted fudging the Auschwitz figures and having debaters here
claim that "We knew the correct figures all along". The Russian figures were
in countless books, encyclopedias, magazines, school textbooks, etc. Either
the people who claimed to know the 1.1 million figure all along were lying
then by keeping silent or they are lying now. Neither scenario builds
confidence in what I am being told currently. What else will they claim to
know later which they are now keeping hidden?

D.BRIN1...message 805

Time and Newsweek reported the change of signs. I have never been to Poland
personally, and have no plans ever to go there.

S.PIERCE6...message 807

Sorry Madam Sheri, but the event is not listed under Poland, Germany, or
Warsaw. I guess they decided that other events were more important. If your
only offering to this topic is rudeness, then perhaps IGN PER would be best
for everybody. Good day.


 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 829       Thu Apr 09, 1992
E.BROWN42 [scaramouche]      at 22:11 EDT
 
Hans-Peter,

I'm sure that it grates on your training, but what we are dealing with  here
is a case of difference in disciplines. Historians are continually revising
their accounts in order to take new evidence into account. The  degree of
precision that mathematics can give is much greater since the mathematician
has a much greater degree of direct control over his/her variables than a
historian does. This doesn't invalidate the historian's task, in fact, it is
the only way that it can be done given the fact that we are dealing with
irreproducable outcomes. (This is also why "revisionism" in and of itself is
not a dirty word in historical investigation.)

Scaramouche
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 830       Thu Apr 09, 1992
D.BERKOWITZ                  at 22:22 EDT
 
G-d bless, A.Webb HRM.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 831       Thu Apr 09, 1992
H.P.SKALIKS [Hans-Peter]     at 22:30 EDT
 
POOH.BAH...message 822

I'm not denying anything. You're doing all the talking and I'm basically
reading all these posts from different people with divergent viewpoints and
trying to make sense of them. You are certainly not the villain of this piece
because you have generally been quite an informative and reasonable person
with whom to talk. The same cannot be said of some of the other respondents
and I tire quite quickly of rude people who have nothing to say or polemicists
who distort the comments of others into something that they can attack more
easily than the original. I have come to the conclusion that participation
here is not a very productive use of my time.

Speaking of insults to people's intelligence, no German government document
would ever use "exekutiert" for executed. The proper term is "hingerichtet".
The document cluttering our screens was obviously prepared in English and then
translated into German later. The word "exekutiert" does exist in German, but
its meaning is ambiguous since it means "mortgaged" in Austrian useage. It
just wouldn't appear in a German document. I have seen death warrants and they
don't use that wording at all.

Bye

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 832       Fri Apr 10, 1992
D.BRIN1                      at 00:12 EDT
 
Hans-Peter, I didn't ask you where you read about those plaques at Auschwitz. 
I asked you if you knew those plaques to say that 4 million Jews were killed
there.  It's a simple question: yes or no?

Did they say that 4 million Jews were killed at Auschwitz?
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 833       Fri Apr 10, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 01:51 EDT
 
 To Termy (regarding 789) ---
 > According to the eyewitness accounts, who was tasked with cutting 
 the hair off gassing victims?
 .
 I believe it was the sonderkommando.
 ---
 > Your comment is specifically invited upon the first sentence in my 
 statement, as shown above, regarding the amount of HCN which would be 
 trapped in the hair.
 > Concerning other points I touched upon in my post #766, especially 
 those regarding the physiological aspects of expression of gases from 
 the lungs of deceased persons, you made no comment. Do you care to 
 comment or will you concede the issue?
 .
 Regarding your first sentence, I feel we are just trading uninformed 
 opinions. I think that a recently-gassed body would likely have 
 dangerous amounts of HCN gas in, on, and around it (as implied by the 
 statements of Mr. Armontrout). You don't.
 .
 As to the gasses trapped in the lungs, I have no knowledge specific 
 to this area, so I can neither agree nor disagree with you. I will 
 point out, however, that what you are saying in essence is that it is 
 possible to pack an unheated room tightly with people, drop in some 
 Zyklon B, have it gas off quickly enough to kill all the people in 
 fifteen minutes and then dissipate without the assistance of 
 ventilators or any other neutralizing agent, and have the room and 
 its contents completely safe for handling at the end of that fifteen 
 minutes. Judging by what I have heard about the toxicity of HCN gas, 
 this simply does not seem possible.
 ---
 > Does Mr. Leuchter have an engineering degree?
 .
 Ah, now you have changed the question. Okay, to the best of my 
 knowledge, Mr. Leuchter has no engineering degree. He does, however, 
 have MUCH better qualifications that Thomas Edison, who only attended 
 3 months of formal schooling, yet managed to amass over 1,000 
 patents, and who changed our lives forever. Mr. Leuchter may not have 
 1,000 patents, but I believe his work has also changed our lives for 
 the better.
 ---
 > In the same fashion as outlined above, I would ask that you 
 ascertain whether or not Mr. Leuchter has appeared before the court 
 concerning his possession (or, more correctly, lack thereof) of an 
 engineering license.
 .
 Mr. Leuchter was called into court, but charges were either dropped 
 or dismissed. There are many people practicing engineering in MA 
 without a license, as MA law only requires certain engineers to have 
 such a license. (We will leave here unaddressed the issue of why in 
 America, land of the free, one needs a license to be an engineer, cut 
 hair, etc.). Mr. Leuchter was not convicted of any charge, and last I 
 heard the state of MA has accepted his application for a license and 
 is reviewing it without prejudice.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 834       Fri Apr 10, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 01:52 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 790) ---
 > Seeing as Mr. Lueftl has denied giving anyone his report and has 
 stated that he doesn't associate with "such circles," I would hardly 
 call that standing behind the report which was made public. After 
 all, there is no verification that the report made public was HIS.
 ---
 Let's look at this statement a piece at a time.
 > ...Mr. Lueftl has denied giving anyone his report...
 .
 Apparently, then, there is a report.
 ---
 > ...and has stated that he doesn't associate with "such circles,...
 .
 Which means nothing, and is certainly no denial of the report or its 
 existence.
 ---
 > I would hardly call that standing behind the report which was made 
 public.
 .
 Considering that it is against the new laws regulating thought in 
 Austria, one would hardly expect him to brag that he had broken the 
 law.
 ---
 > After all, there is no verification that the report made public was 
 HIS.
 .
 So in other words, when the existence of this report was made public, 
 someone asked Lueftl if he indeed was the author, and he called the 
 report's origin into question by stating that he never released it? 
 Why didn't he simply say, "I generated no such report." Or, "It's not 
 mine." Or, "I didn't do it." You are clutching at straws. Again.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 835       Fri Apr 10, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 01:52 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 791) ---
 > From Cassell's German-English Dictionary:
 > "Vernichtung: extermination, annihilation, extinction, 
 destruction."
 .
 Gee, so he could have meant extinction, as well? All you have to do 
 to establish your position now is to prove that when Kremer wrote in 
 his diary, he ALWAYS checked the translation of his words into 
 English, and took the second meaning of each word as the meaning of 
 that word in his sentences. Rather like a secret code, I guess ...
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 836       Fri Apr 10, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 01:52 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 794) ---
 > Sanning's figures (which are inaccurate anyway) are for Romania 
 with its 1947 borders. Hilberg's are for Romania with its 1937 
 borders. Big difference, wouldn't you say?
 .
 The "big difference" is between what you have said and what is the 
 truth of the matter. As anyone can see from my posting 779, Sanning 
 takes into account the changes of the borders. By the way, on what 
 grounds do you so lightly toss off Sanning's figures? There are many 
 who have found that it is not quite this easy ... but we will get to 
 this in a future post, relative your 797!
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 837       Fri Apr 10, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 01:53 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 795) ---
 > I find nothing in the "Birkenau - Kremas II, III, IV and V" which 
 contradicts what Leuchter said on my page 8: "In Birkeanu, Kermas II, 
 III, IV, V are collapsed, or razed to the foundations."
 .
 Ah, but surely you are aware that the roof of at least one of these 
 buildings, although collapsed, remains available for inspection, as 
 do the columns (which are solid and NOT hollow as eyewitness accounts 
 would have us believe). Furthermore, Mr. Leuchter has never stated 
 that everything depends on the CN compound tests alone, the physical 
 inspection alone, or the inspection of the captured German blueprints 
 and other drawings alone. He examined all of these, and came to the 
 conclusion that there were no gas chambers.
 ---
 > And, under the section, "Design and Procedures at the Alleged 
 Execution Gas Chamber" we read: "Kremas I, II, III, IV and V are 
 described historically and on inspection were verified to have been 
 CONVERTED [emphasis mine] mortuaries or morgues connected and housed 
 in the same facility as crematories."
 > Now, no where does Mr. Leuchter enlighten us as to what his 
 inspection verified these structures to have been CONVERTED 
 into....yet, he does indicate that his inspection and the historical 
 description agree. Therefore, we are left to conclude that he agrees 
 with the historical description that these structures were CONVERTED 
 into gas chambers.
 .
 Syntactically, this statement could have been made clearer. However, 
 we can still understand that Mr. Leuchter was saying that the 
 premises that are alleged to have been the very core of the "killing 
 center" were not, in fact, designed as gas chambers, but were instead 
 designed as something else! Only by converting them from their 
 INTENDED use could the Germans have even hoped to use them as mass 
 execution facilities.
 .
 Doesn't it strike you as curious, you with your "policy of 
 extermination," that the Germans went to all the trouble of building 
 facilities that were of no use to them in terms of mass gassings, 
 which would have forced them to convert these unusable facilities to 
 something only marginally better suited to mass exterminations? This 
 is the height of folly.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 838       Fri Apr 10, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 01:54 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 797) ---
 > Let's look at what others have said about Sanning's work, shall we?
 > "....clever veneer of scholarship.....has all the superficial 
 attributes of a factual analysis...identify its flaws..." Professor 
 Henry Huttenback, CCNY.
 > "....a piece of sophisticated Holocaust denial....expose many of 
 the errors in this work." Professor John S. Conway, University of 
 British Columbia.
 > And, these are the "blurbs" that the publisher (IHR) chose to put 
 on the jacket!
 .
 I hereby lodge a formal protest to Graffiti: there is either someone 
 using Pooh.bah's account without her knowledge or she has forgotten 
 the ground rules of the discussion here. Let's look at the blurbs as 
 they appear on the back of the Sanning book, shall we?
 ---
 "...The danger of this book (and of those that will doubtlessly 
 follow) is its clever veneer of scholarship. The bibliography is 
 international in scope and the text has the panache of objectivity. 
 It does not read like a shrill polemic but has all the superficial 
 atttributes of a factual analysis. Not one in a thousand 
 undergraduates could find fault with it; only a few more graduates 
 would be competent to identify its flaws and to convincingly question 
 its credibility. The ultimate danger lies in the lack of a serious 
 response to this continuing wave of attacks on history itself."
 Professor Henry Huttenbach
 City College of New York
 in "Martyrdom and Resistance"
 ---
 "...a piece of sophisticated Holocaust denial...It will require the 
 services of a competent demographer to expose many of the errors in 
 this work."
 Professor John S. Conway
 University of British Columbia
 in "The International History Review"
 ---
 "...this book makes a great parade of statistics to show that 
 whatever diminution in the population of the European Jews took place 
 during World War II was only part of a long-term demographic 
 'dissolution' exacerbated by the rough treatment accorded Jews by the 
 Soviet Union."
 Gordon Mork
 in "Shofar"
 ---
 As we can see, you have hacked these blurbs almost beyond 
 recognition, and certainly beyond meaning. You, Pooh.bah, have 
 clearly crossed the line on this one.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 839       Fri Apr 10, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 01:54 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 798) ---
 > Well, you have admitted to not being a chemist. Maybe we should 
 look at what a chemist has to say:
 > "In the Leuchter report the gas concentration is stated as 0.32% 
 and higher concentrations where the gas was introduced. When an 
 explosive gas mixture fills only a small part of a room or is allowed 
 to escape into the air, there would be no explosion."
 > Josef Bailer, PhD
 .
 Apparently, you are not a chemist, either. The DuPont literature was 
 referring to explosive polymerization. Dr. Bailer appears to be 
 talking about something else entirely. You will not convince me that 
 your position is correct by muddying the waters in this fashion.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 840       Fri Apr 10, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 01:54 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding801) ---
 > Actually, Raul Hilberg had committments which he had to fulfill as 
 a professor at the Univeristy of Vermont and was unable to attend the 
 second trial.
 .
 How convenient. Funny how this happens, kinda like at the Great 
 Holocaust Debate, which my Calender of the Holocaust records as: 
 "2/21/89: The Great Holocaust Debate gets off to a slow start when 
 exterminationists Hal Lindsey (author), Glen Peglau (attorney), John 
 Montgomery (author), and Tom Anderson (attorney) fail to show up to 
 debate revisionists Mark Weber (author), Robert Faurisson 
 (professor), Bradley Smith (author), and Robert Countess (doctor).
 .
 So Hilberg, who for decades has put forth the proposition that the 
 Holocaust occurred, can't find time to help rebut a denier such as 
 Zuendel? One would think that he would MAKE time for such an 
 opportunity ... if he had the proof to back up his statements.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 841       Fri Apr 10, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 01:55 EDT
 
 To Hans-Peter Skaliks (regarding 802) ---
 > The Jewish community complained loudly enough when the Polish 
 government replaced the signs at the Auschwitz museum with signs 
 showing smaller numbers.
 .
 Yes, even though we are told that the JEWISH dead were counted 
 correctly (again!) and it is only the NON-Jewish dead that were 
 counted incorrectly.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 842       Fri Apr 10, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 01:55 EDT
 
 To Carl Fink (regarding 804) ---
 > Please, Raven - this is just silly. The German word translates 
 correctly EITHER WAY - as "extermination" or "annihilation".
 .
 Let's look at what Faurisson has to say about this phrase.
 ---
 "But there is something very much more serious that Georges Wellers 
 has made the Kremer text undergo. Kremer did not say that Auschwitz 
 was 'called an extermination camp,' which, in the original German, 
 would have been: "genannt Vernichungslager."
 "In reality, we read in the original German:
 "'genannt DAS Lager DER Vernichtung' ('called THE camp of THE 
 annihilation').
 "If Wellers had respected the presence of the two articles and if he 
 had given to 'Vernichtung' the meaning of 'extermination' which is 
 indispensible to his extermination thesis, he would have gotten the 
 following phrase: 'It is not without reason that Auschwitz is called 
 the camp of the extermination.' Thus constructed, the phrase sounds 
 bizarre both in German and in French. That has to be for us the sign 
 that a word of the text undoubtedly has been badly translated. That 
 word, as will be seen later on, is 'Vernichtung.' The context will 
 reveal to us that that word is not to be translated as 
 'extermination' (a meaning that it can very well have in other 
 contexts) by by 'annihilation.' There is here no extermination, 
 murder, assassination, killing, nor massacre; there are not the 
 results of an act, an action, or a will; there is nothing here about 
 a 'camp where they exterminate,' there is here no 'extermination 
 camp' (an expression invented by the victors, some years after 1942, 
 to designate camps allegedly endowed with 'gas chambers'). What there 
 is here in reality is an annihilation; men and women are reduced to 
 wasting away; they are annihilated, reduced to nothing by the 
 epidemics and notably by that illness whose name 'typhus (in Greek 
 Tupos) signifies precisely: torpor, stupor, a kind of lethargy, a 
 rapid destruction of the faculties, sometimes up to the point of 
 death. Auschwitz is not 'an extermination camp' (an anachronistic 
 expression, and we know that anachronism is one of the most reliable 
 signs of the presence of a falsehood) but the camp, yes, indeed, the 
 camp *par excellence* of general annihilation. Without a doubt, just 
 as the moment of taking his post at Auschwitz, this newcomer, Dr. 
 Kremer, had heard his colleagues say, 'You know, this camp, they call 
 it the camp of annihilation. Look out for typhus! You yourself also 
 take the risk of contracting it and dying from it.'"
 .
 Thus we see that my using the word "extermination" in place of the 
 proper word, "annihilation," you are indeed "doing violence to the 
 text."
 ---
 > Raven, your 785: you are reading a lot into DuPont's safety 
 regulations, which from the phrasing, seem to be talking about huge 
 quantities. In any case, they are most certainly more worried about 
 lawsuits and employee injuries than the Nazis were - the Nazis were 
 only risking the lives of Jews.
 .
 The DuPont literature makes reference to "dangerous amounts." If 
 toxicity figures for HCN gas are to be believed, this is not a very 
 high concentration. Furthermore, if the so-called gas chambers 
 leaked, they were risking the lives of those OUTSIDE as well.
 ---
 > Raven, your 787: well, I'd like a reference on the evaporation rate 
 of HCN from Zyclon B because if the tin is empty in 5 minutes, it 
 indicates that the gas could spread through the execution chamber and 
 kill everyone fairly easily, whereas if it requires 12 hours, 
 obviously nobody was gassed with Zyclon B. Why not give a range of 
 temperatures, say from 10C to 35C (both of which probably ocurred at 
 different times as OUTDOOR temperatures at the camps).
 .
 Thanks a million for the long-answer question. I'll see what I can 
 come up with.
 ---
 > By the way, the Zyclon B manual makes no sense ...
 .
 Well, there were (and probably still are) the manufacturers ... 
 perhaps they knew one or two things about their own product that you 
 do not know.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 843       Fri Apr 10, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 01:56 EDT
 
 To Daniel Brin (regarding 805) ---
 > Now, now, Hans-Peter (Message 802): Your message appears to imply 
 that those plaques at Auschwitz stated that four million Jews were 
 killed at Auschwitz. Do you know this to be so?
 .
 Do not mistake your inferences with Mr. Skaliks' implications. His 
 message implies no such thing, and you know it.
 ---
 > Mr. Raven: Once again you have dodged the obvious conclusion... the 
 ONLY logical conclusion that can be made of Fred Leuchter's 
 "analysis" of Auschwitz. The core of his argument is his comparison 
 of the delousing chambers with the homicidal gas chambers, and this 
 comparison is rendered meaningless by his failure to comprehend that 
 the two sets of chambers were exposed to VASTLY different amounts of 
 gas, under vastly different conditions.
 .
 You need to study this matter more carefully. Mr. Leuchter himself 
 has stated that only about ten percent of his conclusion is based on 
 the analysis of the samples taken. There is MUCH more to the Leuchter 
 Report than chemical analysis.
 ---
 > Your first response was to this point was to deny that little bugs 
 could "root around" the stuff for hours without dying. Now you have 
 posted a strategic retreat, not quite denying this fact, but not 
 quite admitting it either. The closest you have come to an admission 
 is a citation of Leuchter's concession that, well, yes, SOME bugs are 
 more resistant to cyanide gas than humans.
 .
 You have either misunderstood my post or are mischaracterizing it. 
 Please post the message number so I can respond substantively to this 
 allegation.
 ---
 > Hmmm..... I just noticed that, if Pooh.Bah's quotation of Fred 
 Leuchter (message 795) is correct, then the homicidal chambers were 
 housed in the same facilities as the crematoria. Let's see now. It 
 gets mighty hot around crematoria, doesn't it?
 .
 Hmmm ... How much longer will it take you to notice that crematoria 
 use fire, and that HCN gas burns or explodes on contact with open 
 flame?
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 844       Fri Apr 10, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 01:56 EDT
 
 To Sheri Pierce (regarding 806 et al) ---
 > My advice to you would be to check out the SHOAH video series...
 .
 You will permit me to point out that even "documentary" films are 
 highly suspect by the very nature of their assembly, and that Shoah 
 and Painful Reminder are hardly unimpeachable sources.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 845       Fri Apr 10, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 01:57 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah (regarding 823) ---
 > As has been discussed in this TOPic already, any engine (including 
 diesel) can be adjusted for an increased CO output.
 .
 It has been alleged that a diesel engine can be adjusted for 
 increased CO output, but this has not been backed up with any factual 
 information. What is a fact is that using a diesel engine to produce 
 CO to kill people is extremely inefficient. We know that the Germans 
 had any number of ways to produce CO other than diesel engines. Why 
 would they "forget" these other ways and take up one of the least 
 effective methods in order to effect mass murder? Answer: they 
 wouldn't.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 846       Fri Apr 10, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 01:57 EDT
 
 To Termy (regarding 826) ---
 > Just out of curiousity, is there anyone here (besides Mr. Raven and 
 Mr./Ms. Rungu, if that entity is still about) who does not find the 
 above sufficient evidence of a policy of genocide? Does anyone hold 
 any doubt as to whether or not Hitler was aware of such a policy, or, 
 at the very least, knowledge that large numbers of Jews were being 
 killed?
 .
 Personally, I don't care if EVERYONE else finds these few postings to 
 be sufficient. I do not. You fail to recognize my agreement that the 
 activities of the Einsatzgruppen sometimes resulted in the killing of 
 Jews. This is a special case. The court case of Tauber is another 
 special case.
 .
 You need to address the many statements and efforts made throughout 
 the war by the Nazi high command to the effect that the "final 
 solution" of the Jewish problem was to be put off until after the 
 war, the evidence we have of highly placed Nazi officials continuing 
 to pursue plans to ship the Jews out of Europe as late as 1944, and 
 the evidence that the Nazis were moving lots of Jews East of the 
 so-called killing centers into the occupied territories. There 
 actions (and others) speak loudly and clearly to the point that there 
 was no policy of genocide, and thus Hitler could not have known about 
 it.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 847       Fri Apr 10, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 01:58 EDT
 
 To Pooh.bah
 How many times must I ask you this? Give us the details about the 
 copy of the Franke-Gricksch Report you claim to have reviewed or 
 abandon your endless repetition of it as "proof" of a Nazi policy to 
 exterminate the Jews! Even if you had never seen the document when 
 you first said you had, I have given you more than enough time to 
 obtain a copy of the document about which you claim to have so much 
 knowledge. You apparently cannot answer any but the most simple 
 questions about it, and then only in useless generalities. WHAT ARE 
 THE DETAILS?
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 848       Fri Apr 10, 1992
A.WEBB1 [HRM]                at 02:08 EDT
 
What Pooh.Bah said.

HRM
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 849       Fri Apr 10, 1992
A.K.QUINN                    at 02:22 EDT
 
 I wonder why the RCC canonized Fr Maximilian Kolbe, who volunteered to take
the place of a man with a family, and who was starved to death at Auschwitz?
And why did the Pope at Auschwitz speak so strongly about the genocide
practiced there? John Paul II is not known to be careless with words. 
=KevinQ=
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 850       Fri Apr 10, 1992
E.BROWN42 [scaramouche]      at 02:43 EDT
 
Raven

RE: Post 842 et. al. concerning "extermination" vs. "annihilation"

I believe the appropriate terms for you "argument" are "quibbling" and
"pettifogging". In any case, you've just made out the Nazis to be even worse
monsters if your particular argument is correct. Which is the more inhumane, a
bullet in the back of the head, 15-30 minutes of terror in a gas chamber, or a
deliberate attempt to "annihilate" an entire race of people by slow starvation
and disease? I think most folks would choose the last option as being the most
sadistic. :-<

Scaramouche
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 851       Fri Apr 10, 1992
M.FEINS                      at 18:22 EDT
 
                   A moment of Silence in the

                        Blessed Memory

                of the 75,000 Mental Defectives

                  of ALL races and creeds

       who because of something they could not comprehend

                 nor defend themselves against

                       were  slaughtered

            by the depraved animals of Nazi Holocaust

                     and their Nazi Masters
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 852       Fri Apr 10, 1992
J.WEISBERGE1 [Jon W.]        at 18:22 EDT
 
If the passage from Faurisson quoted by Raven in #842 is a good example of
Faurisson's approach ("annihilation" obviously means "fatal disease"), no
wonder he was thrown out of his profession!

In general, this approach - also exemplified by Raven's #845 (the question
"why would the Germans do X" is advanced as proof that they did not, in fact,
do X") flies in the face of the most basic principles of historiography.

We have testimony that a tank engine was used to produce fumes to asphyxiate
Jews at Treblinka.  The counter-argument consists of asking "why would they
use such an inefficient method?" - which is not, in fact, an argument, but
merely a question which does not address the substance of the testimony.  The
unspoken piece here is that the testimony is false; that it is sufficient to
ask this question to discredit the testimony.  This is a travesty of
historical methodology.


 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 853       Fri Apr 10, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 18:23 EDT
 
 828 Hans-Peter:

  > It bothers me to see these sudden shifts of position when the Russians
  > have only recently admitted fudging the Auschwitz figures and having
  > debaters here claim that "We knew the correct figures all along". The
  > Russian figures were in countless books, encyclopedias, magazines, school
  > textbooks, etc. Either the people who claimed to know the 1.1 million
  > figure all along were lying then by keeping silent or they are lying now.

 Your "either/or" regarding lying is a non-sequitur. Hilberg and Reitlinger
 were the first two to publish complete histories on the Holocaust. Hilberg
 estimated the number of Jews exterminated at Auschwtiz at 1 million (2.7 for
 all camps) and Reitlinger estimated the number at 1.1 million. Their books
 were published long before the plaques were changed. So, no one has been
 "keeping silent" regarding these figures.

 I will repeat again that the plaques at Auschwitz never claimed 4 million
 JEWS. For you to say that the figure "4 million" being reduced necessitates
 the 6 million total figure being reduced either means that you THOUGHT the
 plaques stated that there were 4 million JEWS exterminated there OR that you
 deny that non-Jews (i.e. homosexuals, Gypsies, Russian POWs, Poles, etc.)
 were exterminated there. Which is it?

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 854       Fri Apr 10, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 18:26 EDT
 
 831 Hans-Peter:

  > Speaking of insults to people's intelligence, no German government
  > document would ever use "exekutiert" for executed. The proper term is
  > "hingerichtet". The document cluttering our screens was obviously prepared
  > in English and then translated into German later. The word "exekutiert"
  > does exist in German, but its meaning is ambiguous since it means
  > "mortgaged" in Austrian useage. It just wouldn't appear in a German
  > document. I have seen death warrants and they don't use that wording at
  > all.

 As you know (but others here would not know), "exekutiert" is a conjugation
 of "exekutieren." Now, according to you, this word does not exist in the
 German language and the Americans, British or Canadians were too stupid to
 realize this so used the wrong term in forging a document.

 This is ridiculous on all counts. From _Das Wissen unserer Zeit: Immer auf
 dem neuesten Stand. Knaurs Lexikon A-Z_, Muenchen, 1931:

 "exekutieren: vollstrecken, ausfuehren, HINRICHTEN."

 For everyone else's benefit, "vollstrecken" translates to: "execute, carry
 out, ratify" and "ausfuehren" translates to: "take out, carry out, execute,
 perform." The former would be as in "a will is executed" and the latter would
 be as in "the maneuver was executed." "Hinrichten" is the German word that
 Hans-Peter has designated means to execute as in "a person is executed in a
 gas chamber." 

 I put that word all in caps. This comes from a dictionary published in Munich
 in 1931 so obviously the verb "exekutieren" (1) was a German word at that
 time; and (2) that word did mean to execute as in execute a person.

 Now, the question is, Hans-Peter, did you really not know this OR were you
 simply hoping that no one else knew this?

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 855       Fri Apr 10, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 19:29 EDT
 
 836 Raven:

  > The "big difference" is between what you have said and what is the 
  > truth of the matter. As anyone can see from my posting 779, Sanning 
  > takes into account the changes of the borders.

 Yes, Sanning accounts for the changes in borders. His figures are based upon
 the 1947 borders. However, you then compared Sanning's figures to those of
 Hilberg and Hilberg's figures are the 1937 borders. That is the big
 difference which you want to ignore.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 856       Fri Apr 10, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 19:30 EDT
 
 838 Raven:

  > I hereby lodge a formal protest to Graffiti: there is either someone 
  > using Pooh.bah's account without her knowledge or she has forgotten 
  > the ground rules of the discussion here.

 ROFL!!!!!

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 857       Fri Apr 10, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 19:30 EDT
 
 847 Raven:

 I have now told you in two different messages where the original F-G report
 can be located. I would suggest that you obtain a copy for yourself so you
 can see all the details that interest you.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 858       Fri Apr 10, 1992
C.FINK4 [Carl]               at 21:01 EDT
 
  Raven, your 842:  you (or Faurisson) make a big deal of the clumsiness in
either French or German of "The camp of the extermination".  I can't speak for
those languages, but "The camp of the annihilation" is just as clumsy in
English.  Hans-Peter, you're a native speaker of German, could you comment?

>>>By the way, the Zyclon B manual makes no sense ... [quote from me]

>>Well, there were [sic] (and probably still are) the
 >>manufacturers ...
 >>perhaps they knew one or two things about their own product that
 >>you do not know.

  Perhaps, but I suspect that the translation is off.  HCN is not a very
complex compound:  I can grasp its behavior fairly well.

                                Carl Fink
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 859       Fri Apr 10, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri]            at 23:41 EDT
 
Regard the plaques at Auschwitz:

Initially I heard CNN report that the Polish authorities were reducing their
Auschwitz death count from 4 million to 1 and half million.  Several people
here referred to 1.1 million.  Today I read a rather authoritative news report
from Reuters which stated the total estimate was 1.6 million, of which more
than 90% (1.4 million) were Jews.

Reuters goes on to state that the communist regimes in Poland previously
acknowledged the victims by their countries of origin, and that in any case
the present changes are motivated by the desire of the present Polish
authorities to "restore the historical truth about Auschwitz, especially the
fact that more than 90 per cent of the estimated 1.6 million victims were
European Jews."

I have watched the news and periodicals on this subject rather closely.  I
have seen nothing suggesting the Jews protested the action, quite the
opposite.  Therefore I challenge Hans-Peter to produce his sources.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 860       Sat Apr 11, 1992
A.WEBB1 [HRM]                at 01:24 EDT
 
 What POOH.BAH said.

                Her Rugged Majesty ;) [[[ALL]]]

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 861       Sat Apr 11, 1992
B.EATON2 [BZE]               at 02:35 EDT
 
Raven  #783   What were you taught about the Holocaust, capital H, which is
different from what I have stated?  Written that way, for the past 50 years,
it has come to mean the deliberate destruction of European Jewry, or as much
of it as the Nazis could get their hands on.

Pooh and others have posted innumerable statistics, reports, etc. to show what
happened.  The majority of the world's respected historians and scholars agree
with the major pts they have brought up. "I believe" their documentation.  I
find nothing in the minor pts you bring up and chew to death to contradict
those findings.

You still haven't answered my question posed days ago.  Why do you call Hitler
a great man?  You must have reasons; please share them with us.

#846  Why did the Nazis use valuable and scarce railroad cars to move Jews to
the East?  What was the point of the move if not to exterminate them?

Webster's New World dictionary defines annihilate as "...destroy completely,
put out of existence."  exterminate is defined as "to destroy or get rid of
entirely, as by killing; wipe out; annihilate" The words mean the same thing;
to destroy by killing. You cannot rewrite the language to justify your
political beliefs and retain credibility.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 862       Sat Apr 11, 1992
J.WEIR9                      at 12:17 EDT
 
 RE: Message 637 & 700 / Pooh.Bah
 > This statement would be reasonable IF the delousing chamber had been
exposed
 > to the same environmental forces as had the gas chambers. However, since
the
 > delousing chamber was left intact and the gas chambers had been destroyed
and
 > left exposed to the elements, testing of the samples from the delousing
 > chamber would not logically produce the above conclusion.
 .
     You seem to forget Krema I. It was not destroyed, and has been subject
 to the same environmental forces as had the delousing chamber and the cyanide
 levels there (Leuchter samples 25-31) were about the same as those for the 
 other morgues. Are you saying Krema I was not a gas chamber?
     I have seen slides by Ditlieb Felderer of the exterior of one of the 
 Birkenau delousing chambers where mattresses were leaned against the wall and
 beaten to drive the HCN gas out of them. The Prussian blue which formed on 
 this wall which has been exposed to the elements for all these years is quite
 prominently visible. 
 .
 RE: Message 677 / Pooh.Bah
 > In the above example, it might be true that I had been hit by a car while
 > riding my bicycle. It might also be true that I had been hit from the rear
 > and was thrown through the air. However, my statement of "at least 200
feet"
 > and that it took the ambulance "an hour or two" would probably not be
 > accurate and might, indeed, have to be divided by 2 or 3 to bring them into
 > line with the truth. However, even if that is true, that does not mean that
 > suddenly I would be injury free because my exaggeration translates into the
 > non-existence of the accident.
         This is circular logic. The proof of the accident would be the in-
 juries suffered, the damage done to the bicycle and the car, if any, and doc-
 uments generated by the hospital visit, not the testimony of the accident
 victim.  If there is no other evidence but the testimony an examination
 of the details is the only way assess its credibility. One cannot say
 the testimony is true because the accident occurred and the accident was 
 proven by the testimony. This is merely begging the question.
  In the case of the gas chamber testimony this also applies. You can't
 properly say these accounts are true and prove there were gas chambers
 because you base their veracity on the assumption the gas chambers existed 
 in the first place.
 .
 RE: Message 680 / Pooh.Bah
 > As far as the lack of heaters in the gas chambers, I assume that you mean
of
 > the inorganic type. After all, there were about 300 naked human bodies
which
 > would have produced around 3900 BTU. That is more than enough to heat that
 > small space.
      While this may have contributed to the heating of the air, I do not
 believe these people would have had much effect on the concrete in the floor,
 walls, and ceiling where the condensation would have taken place.
 .
 RE: Message 700 / Pooh.Bah
 >First, the walls of the gas chamber were not "continuously exposed" to HCN
 >for a year and a half.
     I know this. These morgues saw very little HCN at all. What adverb would
 you use if you do not like "continuously"?
 >Second, according Dr. Bailer [...] Third, according to the Institute of
 >Forensic Institute [...]
     I accept there is more than one expert opinion on the matter, however,
 the formation of these compounds is not essential to support the thesis these
 buildings were never used as gas chambers.  Since this compound is absent
there
 is nothing to show these buildings were anything other than what the
documents
 say they were (ie. Crematories with attached morgues built to battle a typhus
 epidemic).
 >As far as gas trapped in lungs, dead people don't exhale.
    True, but neither do they hold their breath, and bodies would have to be
 manipulated when removed.
 >Next, HCN has been used in places such as mills, and granaries because it
 >decomposes after a short time and leaves no residue behind. Also, HCN dis-
 >sipates quickly when exposed to air which has lower (or no) HCN concentra-
 >tion.
     Please define "a short time" and "quickly".
 >This would mean that any residual gas in the chamber would not adversly af-
 >fect the Sonderkommandos.
     If we were talking about one body in an open field I would agree. The
 problem is we are stuck with an unventilated 2500 sq. ft. basement with 300 
 unexhaling bodies in it.
 .
 RE: Message 703 / Pooh.bah
 >"....[...] Despite the speed of this operation the lice
 > jumped on our legs and to protect ourselves we spread a little Zyclon-B
 > around our feet. [...]"
     Pirouetting Parasites, Batman! Leaping lice!  Lice don't jump. At least,

 mine don't. But maybe I don't feed them right. I have been feeling a bit run
 down lately...
 .
 RE:Message 682 / Pooh.bah
 > "We put on our gas masks and went in the room naked or wearing
underpants..."
     Eureka! What a concept! Nude Fumigating! It will revolutionize the indus-
 try!  Stars! They must have been a sight!
 .
 RE: Message 795 / Pooh.Bah
 > Now, no where does Mr. Leuchter enlighten us as to what his inspection
 > verified these structures to have been CONVERTED into....yet, he does
 > indicate that his inspection and the historical description agree.
Therefore,
 > we are left to conclude that he agrees with the historical description that
 > these structures were CONVERTED into gas chambers.
        Nonsense, you reading into it again.  It is quite clear.  In the case 
 of Kremas II through V the conversion was one to rubble. For Krema I it is
 a conversion to a surgery, then to a bomb shelter, and finally to a tourist
 trap.
                                  [Chigger]
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 863       Sat Apr 11, 1992
J.WEIR9                      at 12:20 EDT
 
 RE: Message 728 / G.Raven
 Thank you for the upload tip.
 .
 RE:Message 725 / G.RAVEN
 > Second, Kremer was a native German speaker, was he not? He certainly 
 > could have used the "vernichtungslager" construction if that is what 
 > he had meant, couldn't he? 
   If I am not mistaken, the term "vernichtungslager" is a postwar invention.
 The Nazis did not classify any of their camps as "vernichtungslager" so it
 quite possible he would use the other construct. I believe a more important
 question is: Since he wrote Auschwitz was called "das Lager der Vernichtung"
 for good reason, who else referred to it in those terms? What evidence is
 there to show this term was a synonym for Auschwitz for anyone other than
 Dr. Kremer? 
   This semantic hairsplitting over an ambiguous entry in an obscure doctor's
  diary is symptomatic of the general poverty of documentary evidence for a
 Nazi extermination program.
   If the diary had said something like: "Dear Diary, Got up. Had breakfast.
 Gassed some Jewish women and children. Had Lunch. Gassed some Gypsies to
death.
 Had dinner. Gassed a mixed group of other non-Aryans. Went to bed. Gee this
 monotony is really getting to me. I wish I was back in Berlin." I would say
 that there may be something to this.  But the entry I have seen in its
various
 translations for September 2, 1942 could refer to any number of upsetting 
 events. Stating it refers to a gassing or a genocide program is simply
reading
 into it something that is not there.  
 .                            [Chigger]
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 864       Sat Apr 11, 1992
J.WEIR9                      at 12:22 EDT
 
 RE: Message 711 / J.STENGEL
 >[....] No, I definitely would not do so in "a room with an air 
 >concentration of HCN adequate to kill in 15 minutes"...my whole point on my
 >post you cite is that with elementary ventilation, the chamber no longer
 >contains "concentration of HCN adequate to kill in 15 minutes". When the
doors
 >were CLOSED the HCN concentration WAS adequate to kill in 15 minutes.  Now,
if
 >the doors were opened and the air in the chamber was "changed", AND the
volume
 >of the room outside the chamber was several times greater than the volume of
 >the chamber...so that the concentration of HCN is lowered to a point 
 > "adequate to kill" in maybe a couple hours, [...]
     We can all imagine a theoretical gas chamber which could be used to kill
  large numbers of people in a short period of time. This is why the gassing
 story has been so readily accepted even though most people do not know much
 about chemistry or thermodynamics or have even seen a picture of a gas cham-
 ber designed for such a purpose.  Certainly Nazi Germany had the knowledge
and
 the technology to produce such a device.  They had tunnels designed and built
 to fumigate railroad cars.  They knew how to use Zyclon-B effectively.  
 The question before us is not could they have produced one or more gas
chambers,
 nor even would they have done so, but DID they?  If they did, where was it,
 what did it look like, and how did operate?  You speak of elementary ventila-
 tion.  Find a layout of Krema II and III at Birkenau. Look how the "gas cham-
 ber" is situated in relation to the rest of the building.  There is no
 elementary ventilation.  The only doorway from this room opens into the nexus
 of the building, not to the outdoors. There are no windows, it is mostly be-
 low ground.  There is no proof the Nazis gassed anyone at Birkenau or at
 any of the concentration camps. There is only testimony. Testimony is not
 proof nor even very good evidence.  
 .                   [Chigger]
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 865       Sat Apr 11, 1992
H.P.SKALIKS [Hans-Peter]     at 13:32 EDT
 
POOH.BAH...message 853

According to the various reports, the sign at the Auschwitz museum did not
mention Jews at all. Does this mean that Auschwitz was dedicated to non-Jews,
so that any revisions of the numbers will not affect the Jewish totals? Your
hypothesis that downward revisions of fatality ESTIMATES in concentration
camps or other sites affects only non-Jews is a little thin.

As far as "exekutiert" goes, I have already stated that it is a German word,
but of foreign origins. Read posts CAREFULLY and COMPLETELY and you will not
be caught in these sorts of errors or distortions of what somebody else has
said. You basically changed the text and intent of my post and then started to
attack YOUR CREATION, not mine. If this is an authentic National Socialist
document, then the word choice is UNIQUE and highly suspect. It just does not
fit the mold for word useage in NS documents. These are the same people who
wouldn't allow the word "motor" for an engine because of its foreign, in this
case Greek, origins. The word Treibwerk was used instead. Fernsprecher was
used instead of telefon...etc.

C.FINK4...message 858

The German word "vernichten" means to destroy, literally "to make naught". The
translations of annihilation or extermination are a bit flowery. What was
basically said was that the camp had a high death rate. The REASONS for the
high death rate would need to be established separately and do not follow
automatically from Dr. Kremer's wording. On the other hand, Dr. Kremer was the
fellow who thought Upper Silesia was a tropical jungle, an observation which
would have been news to the local residents.

S.PIERCE6...message 859

The CBC (Radio Canada) evening news showed a group of people, purported to be
a collection of Jews from the U.S. and other places voicing their displeasure
with placard signs etc. to what they thought was a diminuation of the impact
of the holocaust story. Sorry, Sheri, but since this topic is rather
peripheral to my life rather than the centre of it, I do not record the time
and date of these productions.


 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 866       Sat Apr 11, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 14:06 EDT
 
 862 Chigger:

  > You seem to forget Krema I. It was not destroyed, and has been subject
  > to the same environmental forces as had the delousing chamber and the
  > cyanide levels there (Leuchter samples 25-31) were about the same as those
  > for the other morgues.

 Please cite a single source which claims that Krema I was never destroyed. I
 certainly don't know of one.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 867       Sat Apr 11, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 14:07 EDT
 
 862 Chigger:

  > I have seen slides by Ditlieb Felderer of the exterior of one of the 
  > Birkenau delousing chambers where mattresses were leaned against the wall
  > and beaten to drive the HCN gas out of them. The Prussian blue which
  > formed on this wall which has been exposed to the elements for all these
  > years is quite prominently visible. 

 "Prussian blue is a very widespread coloring material that is to be found in
 great quantities on old walls as a residue of old painting or as a stain of
 color that some kind of material that once leaned against this wall left
 behind by fading into the wall. The mattresses that were used in the camps,
 are known to be blue-white stripped mattresses and the blue of the mattresses
 was produced by a Prussian blue."

                                         Josef Bailer, PhD


 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 868       Sat Apr 11, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 14:08 EDT
 
 862 Chigger:

  > The proof of the accident would be the injuries suffered, the damage done
  > to the bicycle and the car, if any, and documents generated by the
  > hospital visit, not the testimony of the accident victim.

 Sorry, this is not totally correct. The testimony of the accident victim
 would also be part of the proof of the accident. For instance, was the
 bicycle rider on the shoulder of the road, on the road, begin to fall before
 impact, was another car approaching and the car that hit the rider swerved to
 avoid that car, etc.? These facts usually can only be determined by
 eyewitness testimony.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 869       Sat Apr 11, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 14:08 EDT
 
 862 Chigger:

  > While this may have contributed to the heating of the air, I do not
  > believe these people would have had much effect on the concrete in the 
  > floor, walls, and ceiling where the condensation would have taken place.

 HCN is lighter than air (0.97:1) and would rise and disperse quickly.
 Although some of the HCN would come into contact with the walls, floor and
 ceiling, it was also quickly vented out of the chambers and the amount of
 condensation would be minimal.

 Add to this the composition of the walls, floor and ceiling (lime and water
 with the additional dampness) and any HCN present would have been destroyed.
 Also, it is unlikely that Prussian blue arose in these walls, because the
 iron in the bricks and in the burnt lime acted unfavorably for the reaction
 of the trivalent form of iron and because the alkaline environment hindered
 the reaction.

 The above information is courtesy of the eminent Austrian chemist, Josef
 Bailer, PhD.


 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 870       Sat Apr 11, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 14:09 EDT
 
 862 Chigger:

  > If we were talking about one body in an open field I would agree. The
  > problem is we are stuck with an unventilated 2500 sq. ft. basement with
  > 300 unexhaling bodies in it.

 "One can recognize from the blue prints the presence of ventilation shafts in
 the walls. Exhaust fans saw to the rapid suction of gas from the gas chamber
 and the rapid introduction of air following the extermination actions."

 The above is from Werner Wegner, PhD. He is an Austrian historian who was
 born in 1907 and began researching Auschwitz and the Nazi extermination
 program in the late 1940s.


 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 871       Sat Apr 11, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 14:10 EDT
 
 862 Chigger:

  > Nonsense, you reading into it again.  It is quite clear.  In the case 
  > of Kremas II through V the conversion was one to rubble. For Krema I it is
  > a conversion to a surgery, then to a bomb shelter, and finally to a 
  > tourist trap.

 "....Leuchter declares that the alleged gas chambers have the appearance of
 an earlier construction, designated purpose and manner of construction. This
 is perfectly correct only in reference to the 'country houses' - Bunkers I
 and II - that were reconstructed from houses for gassing
 purposes.....Leuchter maintains that in the case of the Kremas that we are
 dealing with rebuilt mortuaries or morgues that were connected to the
 crematoria and were lodged in the same structure. This was the case only in
 Krema I where the mortuary that belonged to the crematorium was used to gas
 people for a period of time. All other Kremas (II-V) were planned and built
 beforehand exclusively as extermination structures, with disrobing rooms,
 gassing rooms and incineration rooms, which can be verified by the wealth of
 the testimony from depositions of witnesses and perpetrators, blue prints,
 material management and building orders. Thus it cannot be a question of
 reconstruction."  Werner Wegner, PhD.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 872       Sat Apr 11, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 14:10 EDT
 
 862 Chigger:

  > Stating it refers to a gassing or a genocide program is simply reading
  > into it something that is not there.  

 Perhaps it would be worthwhile to review the entire diary entry for that day
 again.

                     From the diary of Dr. Johann Kremer
                                2 September 1942

 This morning at three o'clock I attended a special action for the first time.
 Dante's hell seemed like a comedy in comparison. Not for nothing is Auschwitz
 called an extermination camp.


 This is a direct reference to a "special action" (i.e. Sonderaktion). Could
 you please analyze the above diary entry in its entirety and explain exactly
 what you think it does mean? Thank you.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 873       Sat Apr 11, 1992
TERMY                        at 14:16 EDT
 
In reply to:  Message 846  G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]

-> Personally, I don't care if EVERYONE else finds these few
 ->postings to be sufficient. I do not.

Obviously.

->You fail to recognize my agreement that the   activities of the
 ->Einsatzgruppen sometimes resulted in the killing of   Jews. This
 ->is a special case.

This is incorrect.  I fail to agree with your assertion that the activities of
the Einsatzgruppen sometimes resulted in the killing of Jews.  Instead, I
prefer to hold to the truth that they were formed with the express purpose of
killing Jews, Gypsies, etc., and did so in quite large numbers.  "Sometimes"
means occassionally. The EK3 report I uploaded shows the activities of one
Einsatzkommando, a unit of an Einsatzgruppe, and details the deaths of over
130,000 Jews, Jewesses, Jewish children, Communists of various nationalities,
Gypsies, etc., over a period of a few months. This is NOT a "sometime"
activity, especially when several of the listings say "All Jews, all Jewesses,
all Jewish children" in a given town.

Further, the report effectively refutes the assertion that Jews were being
killed only because they were a political risk.  Children aren't political
risks.

->The court case of Tauber is another special case.

I quite agree, and am glad that you acknowledge this.  That the SS and Police
Supreme Court would issue a verdict which declares the necessity of killing
all the Jews is indeed a special case, and quite a damning verdict, in more
ways than one.

------

The report that Himmler sent to Hitler indicates quite clearly that both knew
large numbers of Jews were being killed.  The Posen speeches indicate Himmler
advocated the extermination of the Jews-- speak to us of these.  Several of
the documents I've uploaded treat the extermination of the Jews as common
knowledge, with only relatively small numbers (see the EK3 report's
"discussion") being kept alive to perform skilled labor for the war effort. 
Even those were under death sentence, or were to be sterilized in order to
"bring about a solution to the Jewish question in this generation."


 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 874       Sat Apr 11, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 14:49 EDT
 
 865 Hans-Peter:

  > Does this mean that Auschwitz was dedicated to non-Jews, so that any
  > revisions of the numbers will not affect the Jewish totals? Your
  > hypothesis that downward revisions of fatality ESTIMATES in concentration
  > camps or other sites affects only non-Jews is a little thin.

 Once again, Hans-Peter, I will repeat: The figures that were posted by the
 Auschwitz Museum were never used by historians to determine the number of
 Jews who were exterminated there. You are the one who has repeatedly insisted
 that these figures had previously been used by historians and that once these
 figures were revised (BECAUSE of the work of historians!) that the overall
 total of Jewish deaths AS PREVIOUSLY DETERMINED BY HISTORIANS must also be
 decreased.

 As one who works in mathematical physics, let me put it in terms that might
 make sense to you.

 According to sources which used the figures from the Auschwitz Museum (such
 as yourself), these sources have taken that figure and the total figure from
 historians and arrived at the following formula:

        X - Y = Z

 In this formula, X = the total from historians, Y = the figure from the
 Auschwitz Museum and Z = the remaining death outside of Auschwitz.

 The historians, OTOH, have used the following formula:

       A + B + C = T

 In this formula, A = the number of deaths from ALL camps, B = the number of
 executions, liquidations, etc. from outside of the camp system, C = the
 number of deaths from privation, medical experiments, etc. and T = the total
 of these figures summed.

 If you will notice, one of the formulas uses the Auschwitz Museum figures and
 the other does not. To now claim that "T" must be reduced by an amount equal
 to the decrease of "Y" is nonsensical.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 875       Sat Apr 11, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 14:50 EDT
 
 865 Hans-Peter:

  > As far as "exekutiert" goes, I have already stated that it is a German
  > word, but of foreign origins. Read posts CAREFULLY and COMPLETELY and you
  > will not be caught in these sorts of errors or distortions of what
  > somebody else has said.

 You stated that "exekutiert" means "mortgaged" in Austrian useage. Now, this
 isn't quite true, is it? Shall I repost the definition from the German
 dictionary?

  > If this is an authentic National Socialist document, then the word choice
  > is UNIQUE and highly suspect. It just does not fit the mold for word
  > useage in NS documents.

 How many NS documents have you studied or does your knowledge come from other
 than simple scholarship? Have you ever read the Einsatzgruppen reports? You
 might just find that the word usage isn't very unique. Willing to take that
 chance?

 Even if the word usage WAS unique (which it isn't), you are still implying
 that the Americans, British or Canadians were too stupid to realize this and
 used terminology which would be "suspect." Is that what you mean?

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 876       Sat Apr 11, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 14:51 EDT
 
 865 Hans-Peter:

  > The German word "vernichten" means to destroy, literally "to make naught".
  > The translations of annihilation or extermination are a bit flowery. What
  > was basically said was that the camp had a high death rate. The REASONS
  > for the high death rate would need to be established separately and do not
  > follow automatically from Dr. Kremer's wording.

 If "vernichten" means to destroy then "Vernichtung" means destruction. Yet,
 you state that "das Lager der Vernichtung" simply indicates a "high death
 rate." Destruction strongly implies ACTION that would account for a "high
 death rate."

 Plus, I don't believe that you are taking into consideration the total entry:

                     From the diary of Dr. Johann Kremer
                                2 September 1942

 This morning at three o'clock I attended a special action for the first time.
 Dante's hell seemed like a comedy in comparison. Not for nothing is Auschwitz
 called an extermination camp.

    -------------

 What would be your guess as to what "Sonderaktion" means in this context and
 how does this complete entry influence your interpretation of "Vernichtung"?

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 877       Sat Apr 11, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 14:52 EDT
 
 865 Hans-Peter:

  > On the other hand, Dr. Kremer was the fellow who thought Upper Silesia was
  > a tropical jungle, an observation which would have been news to the local
  > residents.

 First, Dr. Kremer never said anything about a "jungle." Second, as has been
 previously pointed out, the weather for that time could have been unusually
 warm.

 This last December I had friends contact me for information about the weather
 in Israel. They had just received a phone call from their son who was
 visiting there. Their son told them that he would have to delay his trip home
 because he was snowed in! They didn't know whether they should believe him or
 not. However, he was staying in Jerusalem and they did indeed have between 1-
 1 1/2 feet of snow at the time. The Negev Desert also saw snow for the first
 time. Anyone who had never been to Israel might make a diary entry that
 Jerusalem (or even the Negev) was a "winter wonderland" and 50 years later,
 people such as yourself would scoff at them.

 Why don't you do a little research and find out what the temperature was at
 that time?

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 878       Sat Apr 11, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri]            at 17:11 EDT
 
>> The CBC (Radio Canada) evening news showed a group of people, purported to
be a collection of Jews from the U.S. and other places voicing their
displeasure with placard signs etc. to what they thought was a diminuation of
the impact of the holocaust story. Sorry, Sheri, but since this topic is
rather peripheral to my life rather than the centre of it, I do not record the
time and date of these productions.

Organized Jewish protests centered on Auschwitz have concerned the Camelite
convent, the inaccuracy of the plaques, and the designation of victims by
country of origin rather than by targetted group. When they were filmed
voicing their "displeasure with placard signs etc," I presume it was prior to
the revisions, since changes themselves have been welcome.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 879       Sat Apr 11, 1992
H.P.SKALIKS [Hans-Peter]     at 17:12 EDT
 
POOH.BAH...message 875

Oh come on, POOH.BAH, write a letter of complaint to the publishers of the
OXFORD DUDEN GERMAN-ENGLISH dictionary and tell them that they don't
understand any German. That dictionary states that "executiert" is used in
Austria for "verpfaendet".

My father worked for many years for the ministry of the interior, and saw
countless thousands of official documents. Your document was the first one he
has seen that uses that word in that context. It looks like the kind of thing
that the allies put together as "proof" to justify the convictions at
Nuremberg, which were in any case decided "in advance" by the politicians at
Yalta. The only reason that the people charged with the murders of the Polish
officers at Katyn were acquitted, in violation of the Yalta agreement, was
that their lawyers were able dodge allied efforts to prevent their
introduction of physical evidence which made nonsense of the allied forgeries.
It was feared by the western allies that a conviction which flies in the face
of the laws of time and space could expose the proceedings for the farce that
they were. The Russians couldn't understand why a conviction which violates
the laws of nature should be a problem, since they saw court proceedings as a
political tool to advance the cause of the powers that be. They lodged a
formal complaint of the acquittal. Naturally, they must have been aware that
THEY and THEY alone were responsible for Katyn and numerous other atrocities
as well.

As a consequence of this and other events, I tend to take the presentation of
"documents" with a grain of salt.

The bike example of a few posts back is quite good. What some of the
respondents appear to be telling me is that I have to accept their paper
evidence in the form of statements, anecdotal reports, diaries, and that sort
of stuff. I'm asking to see and examine the damaged bike, the physical
evidence. I'm being told that it is impolite to ask to see that.
 --------------------------------------------------------------------
 A quality forgery takes some time. The allies were frequently in a rush,
since they had some 10 million former party members who needed to be
"cleansed" in their de-nazification courts. They needed some dirt on all these
people, and if there wasn't any, they simply manufactured it.
 --------------------------------------------------------------------
 I have no quarrel with your contention that there are some very hot days in
Upper Silesia, especially during the summer. It is also true, that -40'C or
lower in the winter is not unusual. This is more than cold enough to have
trouble vaporizing materials that boil in the vicinity of +25'C.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 880       Sat Apr 11, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri]            at 18:20 EDT
 
Hans-Peter 879

>> I'm asking to see and examine the damaged bike

Why don't you meet some survivors and take a look at their scars. You belong
to the last generation physically able to do so.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 881       Sat Apr 11, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 20:59 EDT
 
 879 Hans-Peter:

  > Oh come on, POOH.BAH, write a letter of complaint to the publishers of the
  > OXFORD DUDEN GERMAN-ENGLISH dictionary and tell them that they don't
  > understand any German. That dictionary states that "executiert" is used in
  > Austria for "verpfaendet".

 Isn't it interesting that the definition must have altered from the time that
 _Das Wissen unserer Zeit: Immer auf dem neuesten Stand. Knaurs Lexikon A-Z_
 was published in Muenchen in 1931?

 BTW, you stated that your German-English dictionary defines "executiert" (not
 exeKutiert"!) as "verpfaendet." Since when does a German-English dictionary
 define a German word with a German word?

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 882       Sat Apr 11, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 21:00 EDT
 
 879 Hans-Peter:

 This is interesting. You state the case about the Soviets manufacturing
 evidence concerning the Katyn massacre and then use this as a reason why no
 document should be believed. BTW, you do know that the Nazis discovered that
 some what was later claimed to be "manufactured" evidence was indeed true
 (while the Nazis were in power, of course) and covered it up so as not to
 demoralize their troops or raise questions about themselves, don't you?

 Be that as it may, you originally claimed that the document which Termy
 posted had originally been written in English and then translated into
 German. Yet, you attempt to validate this with an example from the Soviets.
 Does that mean that you equate the Western Allies with the Soviets?

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 883       Sat Apr 11, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 21:01 EDT
 
 879 Hans-Peter:

  > The bike example of a few posts back is quite good. What some of the
  > respondents appear to be telling me is that I have to accept their paper
  > evidence in the form of statements, anecdotal reports, diaries, and that
  > sort of stuff. I'm asking to see and examine the damaged bike, the
  > physical evidence. I'm being told that it is impolite to ask to see that.

 Paper is something that is physical. But, let's go back to the bike analogy.
 Let's say that the driver of the car was discovered to have written a letter
 of protest about how bike riders were taking over the highways and how he (or
 she) was sick of it and was going to do something about it. Are you
 suggesting that this "paper evidence" should not be used to prove motive?

 What you desire is FORENSIC evidence as opposed to just physical evidence. In
 1945, the Krakow Institute of Forensic Expertise (the same Institute that did
 the recent study) performed forensic tests on six grills from the ventilation
 system of Krema II. Two reagents were used in those tests. The first reagent
 produced a bluish coloration indicating that Prussian blue had been formed.
 The second reagent produced an orange hue indicating that thiocynate had been
 created by the reaction. This combination indicated the presence of large
 quantities of hydrocyanic compounds.

 Now, you will probably claim that these test were done by the "communists"
 and, therefore, are invalid. Or, you will claim that there could be other
 reasons (besides gas chambers) for the existence of these hydrocyanic
 compounds. Yet, when these tests are combined with the other physical
 evidence (which you also deny as being "forged") the case is made.

 BTW, you never answered my question regarding Dr. Kremer's full diary entry
 for September 2, 1942. What is your interpretation of "Sonderaktion" and "das
 Lager der Vernichtung" in that entry?


 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 884       Sat Apr 11, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 21:01 EDT
 
 879 Hans-Peter:

  > A quality forgery takes some time. The allies were frequently in a rush,
  > since they had some 10 million former party members who needed to be
  > "cleansed" in their de-nazification courts. They needed some dirt on all
  > these people, and if there wasn't any, they simply manufactured it.

 Please cite sources for this and, while you are at it, you might attempt to
 explain why the document which Termy u/l'ed (you know the one in which
 "exekutieren" was used) was typed on the special typewriter used exclusively
 for documents for Hitler's approval or review. Are you now claiming that the
 Allies were careful enough to use the right typewriter but too hurried or
 careless to use the correct terminology?

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 885       Sat Apr 11, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 21:02 EDT
 
 879 Hans-Peter:

  > I have no quarrel with your contention that there are some very hot days
  > in Upper Silesia, especially during the summer. It is also true, that
  > -40'C or lower in the winter is not unusual. This is more than cold enough
  > to have trouble vaporizing materials that boil in the vicinity of +25'C.

 Only if those materials are used outside in the -40'C temperature...which, as
 you know, was not the case.


 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 886       Sat Apr 11, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 22:03 EDT
 
 879 Hans-Peter:

  > My father worked for many years for the ministry of the interior, and saw
  > countless thousands of official documents. Your document was the first one
  > he has seen that uses that word in that context.

 BTW, isn't the Department of Transportation under the auspices of the
 Ministry of the Interior?

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 887       Sat Apr 11, 1992
H.P.SKALIKS [Hans-Peter]     at 22:40 EDT
 
S.PIERCE6...message 880

Sheri, I have no doubt that survivors of the NS camps have deep physical
and/or psychological scars. These wounds are quite real, and to my mind at
least, not subject to dispute. My questions concern the overall dimensions,
the estimates of the magnitude of this event.

We are talking about a program for which there was no budget allocation and
which no Reichstag ever voted to implement. It was not therefore a policy of
the German state. Even if direct orders signed by Hitler were to be found at
some future date, it does not alter the fact that this was essentially a
private project of the National Socialist party. The program was apparently
financed through confiscation of property from the victims and reasonably well
concealed from the German general public. The "special actions" were generally
implemented by paramilitary groups associated with the NS party. The Wehrmacht
had more than enough to do just to maintain itself in the field. These other
things tended to occur after the regular soldiers had come and gone. As a
matter of fact, these measures would tend to have had the effect of
undermining the field status of the Wehrmacht by increasing partisan activity
against them. In the years that my father worked for the ministry of the
interior, one of his jobs was to make sure that munitions and other supplies
got to the front. The opinions of Mr. Speer notwithstanding, no official of
the Reichsbahn ever refused to make a train available to transport supplies on
the basis that the trains were booked to carry people to concentration camps.
Any person who would have interfered with the transport of supplies in this
way would have found himself in court charged with treason.
 --------------------------------------------------------------------
 POOH.BAH...message 881

My apologies, a slight muscle spasm in my fingers changed the spelling. It
should be "exekutiert" with a "k". I'm so used to this as an English word that
I almost automatically spell it with a "c". The Duden does indeed print
alternatives in German along with its English translation.
 --------------------------------------------------------------------
 POOH.BAH...message 882

The principal difference between the western and eastern allies was in degree
rather than quality. The western allies were certainly not saints.
 --------------------------------------------------------------------
 POOH.BAH...message 883

Compounds involving the CN radical on the ventilation system grills would
suggest at least one exposure to something containing hydrocyanic acid. The
large amount comment does not follow from this evidence alone. If my memory
serves me correctly, you said that these people also tested the walls and
found more or less the same low figures as more modern research. This was
explained as the result of weathering. Were these grills stored out of harm's
way? Another post pointed out that the structure standing on the site now ,and
which is described as the gas chamber, has no ventilation system and that the
doors were used for this purpose. I think it was Sheri who revised the figures
up again to 1.6 million. This many people don't vanish without a trace. Even
if they were cremated with the most extreme efficiency, there should be at
least 1600 tonnes of ash. If some of the victims were not cremated, then there
should be even more remains. This sort of evidence has not been found.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
 For some reason, Dr. Kremer is being vague and evasive. He hints that
something dark and unpleasant is happening, but he never actually SAYS what it
is. You are projecting your understanding of what occurred onto his comments
and then arguing that his comments prove your understanding.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 888       Sat Apr 11, 1992
H.P.SKALIKS [Hans-Peter]     at 22:57 EDT
 
POOH.BAH...message 886

I'm starting to think that this is a plot to wear me out. I'll answer this one
and then I'm going to turn in. I do need some sleep from time to time.

The Ministry of the Interior would have dealt with virtually all internal
matters, but not necessarily directly. The Reichsbahn had its own
administration. The railway would be financially responsible to the Ministry
of the Interior, but not for day to day operations. There were some 5 million
civil service types who managed the various ministries and departments.
Present-day Germany requires even more people to administer the state.
Americans would probably find such all-pervasive government disturbing. You
don't have to go as far away as Germany. It apparently takes almost 2 million
people to administer Canada, which has only one tenth the population of the
U.S.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 889       Sat Apr 11, 1992
C.FINK4 [Carl]               at 23:11 EDT
 
Pooh.bah:

>> What you desire is FORENSIC evidence as opposed to just physical
 >>evidence. In 1945, the Krakow Institute of Forensic Expertise (the
 >>same Institute that did the recent study) performed forensic tests
 >>on six grills from the ventilation system of Krema II. Two
 >>reagents were used in those tests. The first reagent  produced a
 >>bluish coloration indicating that Prussian blue had been formed.
 >> The second reagent produced an orange hue indicating that >>thiocynate had
been created by the reaction. This combination
 >>indicated the presence of large quantities of hydrocyanic
 >>compounds.

  Tested grills "..from the ventilation systems..."?
                            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Emphasis mine]  Can you give more information on this report, Pooh? Raven,
RUNGU, and J.WEIR have been saying that we have no evidence such ventilation
systems even existed.

                                Carl Fink
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 890       Sun Apr 12, 1992
D.BRIN1                      at 00:49 EDT
 
Mr. Raven:  I see that you acknowledge that the crematoria were housed in the
same facility  as the gas chambers.  Do you also acknowledge that these
crematoria would tend to heat the entire building -- making them rather
toasty, in fact?

Ah, but you say that these crematoria would ignite the HCN gas from the
chambers, causing an explosion.  I decided to see what Jean-Claude Pressac had
to say about the subject:

"Leuchter's last claim about the homicidal gas chambers in connection with the
cremation furnaces is that they are incompatible under the same roof.  As soon
as the door was opened to the area saturated with hydrocyanic acid, the same
being without ventilation according to Leuchter, the gas would be spread
throughout the crematorium, reaching the lit ovens, and, combined with the
air, would have exploded, destroying the entire building.

"HCN's flammability limits in air are from 5.6% (minimum) to 40% (maximum) in
volume (6%-41% according to Du Pont).  This signifies that upon contact with a
flame there is an explosion if the  concentration of hydrocyanic acid in air
comprises between  67.2 g/m(cubed) and 480 g/m(cubed).  Below 67.2 g/m(cubed)
there is no risk, nor is there any at greater than 480 g/m(cubed), because
there is not enough remaining oxygen for burning to begin.

"The SS used doses of 5 g/m(cubed) in delousing and 12-20 g/m(cubed) in
killing, well under the 67.2 g/m(cubed) threshold.  Their gas chambers and
crematoriums were not about to explode.

"leuchter's 'impartial' opinion is based upon an incorrect calculation. The
twisted idea comes from Faurisson.  It is appalling that Leuchter should have
backed it up without checking it out for himself."
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 891       Sun Apr 12, 1992
D.BRIN1                      at 00:53 EDT
 
Mr. Raven, you expressed your skepticism about insects' superior
      resistance to HCN while we were discussing this matter on the PEN
network in Santa Monica.  If you choose to deny that you expressed this
skepticism, I will be happy to reproduce it here.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 892       Sun Apr 12, 1992
S.PIERCE6 [Sheri]            at 03:18 EDT
 
887

Dr. Kremer testified to the existence of the gas chambers and the full
dimension of a "special action" at his war crimes trial.  So he clarified the
"dark and unpleasant happening"s  of Auschwitz.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 893       Sun Apr 12, 1992
H.P.SKALIKS [Hans-Peter]     at 07:18 EDT
 
D.BRIN1...message 890

Your concentration values reverse the statements made by POOH.BAH and others
that the gas concentrations in the homicidal gas chambers would have been
lower than in the delousing chambers. This was supposed to explain the
relative absence of CN compounds in the walls of the shower room. Your figures
would suggest concentrations up to 4 times that of the delousing chamber and
yet it was the delousing chamber which had lots of evidence of HCN exposure.

Working on the assumption that none of the respondents here are out to
deliberately pull the wool over our eyes, it would appear that some of the
expert sources being cited are just as speculative as F.Leuchter and others
are accused of being. Such large variations in values, even to the point of
contradiction, suggest very strongly that there is no definite information.

S.PIERCE6...message 892

I'm not familiar with the Kremer trial, Sheri, but I do hope that it was not
another Hoess confession in which the British interrogators created the
confession and then subjected the accused to "physical pressure" (ie.
beatings, torture, etc.) until the document was signed. Many of the trials of
this period were comparable to those staged by the late and unlamented
Ayatollah Khomeini in Iran.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 894       Sun Apr 12, 1992
AH.STEIN                     at 09:58 EDT
 
 887  Hans-Peter:

 >My questions concern the overall dimensions, the estimates of the
 magnitude of this event.

 Every once in a while, you include a small phrase such as this which
 indicates that you actually do recognize that the Holocaust did occur, and
 that you merely are uncertain about the exact number of Jews and others who
 were killed.

 Unfortunately, the tone of most of your messages are in line with those of
 the infamous Holocaust Deniers, and make it appear that you are trying to
 deny the Holocaust completely.  You might want to make your interest
 clearer, so that you do not appear to be a tool of the neo-Nazi
 disinformation machine.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 895       Sun Apr 12, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 12:21 EDT
 
 887 Hans-Peter:

  > It was not therefore a policy of the German state. Even if direct orders
  > signed by Hitler were to be found at some future date, it does not alter
  > the fact that this was essentially a private project of the National
  > Socialist party.

 I'm sure you have probably noticed that I don't say "Germany" or "Germans"
 did this or that but, instead, say "Nazi Germany" (when I need to mention the
 country) or "Nazis." In this way, there is some agreement between the two of
 us. However, your claim that just because the Reichstag never legislated a
 policy that it makes everything done a non-policy of the German state bears
 examination. You have said that your maternal grandfather perished in the
 euthanasia program. Just out of curiosity, do you consider the euthanasia
 program to be a "policy of the German state" or a "private project of the
 National Socialist party"?

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 896       Sun Apr 12, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 12:21 EDT
 
 887 Hans-Peter:

  > If my memory serves me correctly, you said that these people also tested
  > the walls and found more or less the same low figures as more modern
  > research.

 The Krakow Institute of Forensic Expertise tested the grills in 1945. It
 wasn't until 1990 that they tested the walls.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 897       Sun Apr 12, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 12:21 EDT
 
 887 Hans-Peter:

  > Another post pointed out that the structure standing on the site now ,and
  > which is described as the gas chamber, has no ventilation system and that
  > the doors were used for this purpose.

 I believe it has been Raven who has been alleging that the gas chambers had
 no ventilation system. This, of course, is more disinformation. Even the blue
 prints indicate the ventilation shafts and there are construction orders for
 the ventilation fans, etc.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 898       Sun Apr 12, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 12:22 EDT
 
 887 Hans-Peter:

  > I think it was Sheri who revised the figures up again to 1.6 million.

 If you will re-read Sheri's message you will discover that the 1.6 million
 was in reference to EVERYONE (as opposed to "Jews") who perished at
 Auschwitz. Does your rehashing this once again mean the you are denying that
 the Nazis exterminated non-Jews (i.e. homosexuals, Gypsies, Poles, Russian
 POWs, etc.)?

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 899       Sun Apr 12, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 12:22 EDT
 
 887 Hans-Peter:

  > This many people don't vanish without a trace. Even if they were cremated
  > with the most extreme efficiency, there should be at least 1600 tonnes of
  > ash.

 Could you please substantiate the figure of "1600 tonnes"?

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 900       Sun Apr 12, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 12:23 EDT
 
 887 Hans-Peter:

  > For some reason, Dr. Kremer is being vague and evasive. He hints that
  > something dark and unpleasant is happening, but he never actually SAYS
  > what it is.

 You have yet to answer the question. What is your interpretation of Dr.
 Kremer's diary entry. Please explain your interpretation of "Sonderaktion"
 and "das Lager der Vernichtung" for us.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 901       Sun Apr 12, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 12:24 EDT
 
 889 Carl:

  > Raven, RUNGU, and J.WEIR have been saying that we have no evidence such
  > ventilation systems even existed.

 Three of the six grills that were tested are at the Auschwitz Museum (hence,
 physical evidence of the existence of the ventilation system). Also, the blue
 prints clearly show the ventilation shafts and there are purchase orders,
 construction orders, etc. for ventilation fans for the gas chambers.

 Raven's comments on the lack of ventilation systems come from Leuchter who
 states that "much of the reviewed material was literature purchased and
 viewed at the sites in Poland, including copies of original drawings of
 Kremas I, II, III, IV and V." However, these original drawings can only be
 obtained through the Auschwitz Museum. When queried, the Museum director
 stated in writing "neither authorization [for sample gathering] nor
 blueprints given to Leuchter from museum."

 Leuchter arrived at his false conclusions based solely upon the examination
 of piles of rubble.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 902       Sun Apr 12, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 12:24 EDT
 
 893 Hans-Peter:

  > Your concentration values reverse the statements made by POOH.BAH and
  > others that the gas concentrations in the homicidal gas chambers would
  > have been lower than in the delousing chambers.

 First, D.BRIN didn't make these statements - he was quoting Pressac. Pressac
 was commenting on the MAXIMUM that would have been used (i.e. the quantity
 used in US gas chambers).

 However, assuming that the maximum would have been used all the time, that
 would mean that 12 g/m^3 was present for 15 minutes in each use of the
 homicidal gas chamber. Yet, the delousing chamber would have been exposed to
 5 g/m^3 for at least 2 hours per occasion. The delousing chambers had no
 special ventilation system (but the homicidal gas chambers did) and had to
 air out more slowly.

 As a scientist I'm sure you realize that the LENGTH of exposure (if not more
 so) is just as significant as the concentration.

 Also, your comment does not consider the differences in environmental
 influences over the last 43 years.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 903       Sun Apr 12, 1992
POOH.BAH                     at 12:25 EDT
 
 893 Hans-Peter:

  > I'm not familiar with the Kremer trial, Sheri, but I do hope that it was
  > not another Hoess confession in which the British interrogators created
  > the confession and then subjected the accused to "physical pressure" (ie.
  > beatings, torture, etc.) until the document was signed. Many of the trials
  > of this period were comparable to those staged by the late and unlamented
  > Ayatollah Khomeini in Iran.

 Be careful....your agenda is showing.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 904       Sun Apr 12, 1992
D.BRIN1                      at 15:54 EDT
 
Hans-Peter:

Quoting again from Pressac:

"The HCN was in physical contact with the (homicidal) gas chamber walls for no
more than ten minut for no more than ten minutes a day...In the delousing
chambers, a minimum of 5g/m^3 was used over the course of several daily
cycles, the length of which varied according to the amount of time chosen for
the period of contact.  This cyanide saturation for 12 TO 18 HOURS A DAY 
(emphasis mine) was strengthened by the heat the stoves in the room
emitted...The walls were impregnated with HOT (emphasis mine) HCN for at least
12 hours a day..."

I believe that this adequately explains how the delousing chambers could
retain higher levels of HCN than the rubble of the homicidal gas chambers.
 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 905       Sun Apr 12, 1992
H.P.SKALIKS [Hans-Peter]     at 16:11 EDT
 
POOH.BAH...message 895

My grandfather fell victim to people who disregarded the established laws of
Germany. The people who were responsible took their orders from the NS party,
not from the German state or its legally constituted authorities.
 --------------------------------------------------------------------
 POOH.BAH...message 898

In case it was missed the first time, I'm not denying anything. I'm trying to
establish what you regard as the authoritative figure. They keep floating
around so that I feel like somebody watching one of those "pea under a walnut
shell tricks" where I have to guess where the pea is now.
 --------------------------------------------------------------------
 POOH.BAH...message 899

There is a minimum of 1 kg of mineral ash in your typical person. Taking
Sheri's figures of 1.6E6 x 1 kg = 1.6E6 kg = 1.6E3 tonnes. With your figures,
it would only be 1.1E3 tonnes. Either way, it is rather too much to sweep into
the privy where later investigators might miss it.
 --------------------------------------------------------------------
 POOH.BAH...message 900

"Sonderaktion" leaves the impression of special action in the sense of being
at variance with standard practice or regulations. "Interpretation" of
something like this is speculation. It COULD mean what you obviously want it
to mean, but it does not specifically state that. Why would "Sonder..." be
used to describe an action which you argue was day to day routine, nothing
unusual, and perfectly in accord with their instructions?
 --------------------------------------------------------------------
 POOH.BAH...message 902

It is quite logical for both time and concentration to be significant. I was
just asking for clarification, since the data was starting to creep all over
the place and self-adjust to suit the occasion. You have answered my question.
Thank you.
 --------------------------------------------------------------------
 POOH.BAH...message 903

And what agenda is that POOH.BAH? The German government had to pay out huge
sums to compensate the victims of the allied "courts" when the victims finally
got the chance to present their cases before a regular court in which
internationally recognized standards of evidence applied, rather than to a
biased, political, alien, kangaroo court. What else can one say to a system in
which the prosecutors and judges were of one nationality and the defendants of
another and where laws created especially for this purpose were applied
retroactively?




 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 906       Sun Apr 12, 1992
H.P.SKALIKS [Hans-Peter]     at 16:25 EDT
 
D.BRIN1...message 904

Thank you Mr. Brin, for your clarification. I think POOH.BAH beat you to a
response. Thank you also for the civil tone of your response. I'm a very
patient person, but I am starting to get a little irritated with the tone and
innuendo of some of the responses. A post in a badgering style is simply not
worth the effort to make a reply.

 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 907       Sun Apr 12, 1992
H.P.SKALIKS [Hans-Peter]     at 16:50 EDT
 
AH.STEIN

Alan, you will not be able to cite a single post in which I have made any
personal attacks against you or been rude to you.

Loaded words like "neo-Nazi" or "tool of...", etc. really don't enhance your
presentation. My mind works in linear logic, so when I see you make these
nonsensical statements about me personally, I start to think that if his
thinking leads him this far off the mark here, then perhaps the rest of his
statements are worthless also.


 ------------
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 908       Sun Apr 12, 1992
GRAFFITI [Ric Helton]        at 16:52 EDT
 
This topic has grown over 900 messages, and has been closed.  The new topic
for continuation of this discussion is Category 15 Topic 13. The same rules
apply there.  I have been pleased with the serious effort at discovery and
intellectual debate here over the last week, and I hope it will continue.

The first topic has been archived and is available for downloading in the
Public Forum Library.  (The filename is HOLO.ARC)  This topic will be archived
to the library over the next few days, so take this time to capture any
messages you may wish to save before then.  The message numbers in the topic
will not be altered by cleaning, so references to message numbers will remain
accurate.

Discussion continues in Cat 15 Topic 13.  Thank you.

 -Ric/PF*NPC
 ------------

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