The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

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From gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com Sat Jul 25 18:19:45 EDT 1998
Article: 194071 of alt.revisionism
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From: gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Central Sauna
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 15:58:02 GMT
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In article ,
  dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
> gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com writes:
>
> # Personally, I am a critic of van Alstine. It would appear that
> # pits were used even more after July 1944 than in May-July 1944,
> # and especially in August. Most Hungarian Jews sent to Auschwitz
> # who died there, or at least a large minority of them, died in
> # the pits. The gassing and cremation facilities were insufficient.
> # Some experiments, whose results are still classified, or, should
> # I say, suppressed, which were conducted by the U.S. government
> # indicate that in a test on monkeys who were subjected to gassing
> # by Zyklon B within the technical specifications suggested by
> # standard Holocaust scholarship during the 1970's, and, although
> # I could be wrong, even now, only about half died.
>
> That's very difficult to believe - the toxicity of cyanide is
> well-known. Also, HCN gas (which Zyklon-B is a carrier for) is used
> to this day in some gas chambers in US prisons; and it was never
> reported that anyone survived a gassing in these chambers.

OK, it is. But this does not make it false, does it ? Besides, I am not one of
those people who believes in the Leuchter Report.


> # The results were of course confiscated by one of the agencies of
> # the U.S. government on some sort of technicality.
>
> Any solid evidence for this?

I can not make public the evidence that I have. Moreover, my evidence is not
solid. It's simply that the person who told me all of these things is
personally honest. However, there is a book by a guy named Edward Taub which
describes how the same thing was done to experiments on monkey physiology
during the 1970's.


> # I do believe that Holocaustological scholarship is right that
> # there were gassings at Auschwitz, Treblinka, Majdanek, Sobibor,
> # Belzec and Chelmno, but the details are wrong. A look at how
> # many Jews were gassed at Majdanek, 50,000 or whatever, and at
> # the size of the killing facilities, etc. does give a good
> # picture of what really happened at Auschwitz. It was technically
> # impossible to gas so many people.

I meant to say that for Auschwitz, on the basis of the gassing facilities at
Majdanek.

>
> Why? I saw the gas chambers in Maidanek. They are not small
> (although smaller than the ones in Auschwitz).

What I meant to say is that it was technically impossible to gas 1 million
Jews at Auschwitz. Many were burned in pits. Some died a non-violent death (I
would hesitate to call it natural, because rather few custodial deaths are
genuinely natural).

 Technically, it
> would have been possible to gas 50,000 people there.

I agree.

 As for
> Auschwitz, considering the size of the gas chambers, it was also
> possible to gas about a million people there.

I am not an expert on the topic, but I think that the number of dead Jews at
Auschwitz according to Pressac was something like 700-770,000.

>
> # No experiments with Diesel engines or whatever were conducted,
>
> But animals were killed with a (tiny) diesel engine, and there
> are papers which report that it is trivial to tune a diesel to
> release lethal exhaust. See
>
I do not deny this. I simply meant to say that there was no need for secret
experiments to prove that what you are saying would, and could, be done.

> 1) "The Significance of Diesel-Exhaust-Gas Analysis", by
> J.C. Holtz and M.A. Elliot, Transactions of the ASME,
> Vol. 63, 1941, p. 97-105.
>
> 2) "The Toxicity of Fumes from a Diesel Engine Under Four Different
> Running Conditions", by Pattle et al., British Journal of Industrial
> Medicine, 1957, Vol 14, p.  47-55.
>
> # but Venona, a mechanism of the O.S.S. for intercepting radio
> # transmissions seems to indicate that in the case of a number of
> # (typical ?) transports of Jews who were sent to the Operation
> # Reinhard camps, most deportees died on the way.
>
> Many did die; I don't know if half was a typical, or average, number.

Neither do I.

> [Long analysis of the number of Holocaust victims deleted]
>
> There isn't really any strong evidence you offer to support
> these figures, unless you count those who died during transports
> to a certain camp as not having died in the camp,

I do.

 and if you
> maintain that half or more died during transit - of which I
> am not sure.

I do.

 The Iasi case is well-known but does not prove that
> this was the case in general.

Thank you for your polite, thoughtful and thought-provoking answer. I will
attempt to back up my argument with sources in my original posting, but this
will not in any way devalue your comments.


> -Danny Keren.
>
>


--
George Popovici

Silence is an answer, but not the answer.
(George Popovici, ancestor of the poster,

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From gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com Sat Jul 25 18:19:46 EDT 1998
Article: 194083 of alt.revisionism
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From: gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Van Alstine, a great Holocaustologist
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 16:59:55 GMT
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In article ,
  mvanalst@!spam!home.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
> In article <6pb0oi$tf9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com
wrote:
>
> > In article <1998072415265800.LAA22582@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
> >   ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa) wrote:
> > > Here is a question to Mark Van Alstine regarding
> > > "burning pits".
> > >     Specifically, What is your belief as to the time
> > > period(s) Pits were used at Birkenau?  What is
> > > Orthodoxy Belief, if different?
> > >     As I understand your position, you claim "pits"
> > > were used from Sept. 1942 until November 1942
> > > and then not until  May-July 1944.
> > >  Is this a clear and correct stating of your belief?
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Personally, I am a critic of van Alstine.
>
> Really? I thought Poopy wwre just being a dick.

My friends have sometimes told me that I am a pain in the neck. And I like the
term "Poopy". A "y" was added to a digestive concept which preoccupies van
Alstine.


>
> > It would appear that pits were used even more after July 1944 than in
> May-July
> > 1944, and especially in August.
>
> The incineration pits behind Krema V and near bunker 2, according to
> Sonderkommando Henryk Tauber, were were dug in May 1944. Sonderkommando
> Filip Müller also places the construction of the incineration pits behind
> Krema V in may 1944. (Cf. Pressac, _Technique_, p.500; Müller, _Eyewitness
> Auschwitz_, p.129; Gutman, _Anatomy_, p.553.)
>
> Given that the incineration pits were built prior to the deportations it
> is clear that they were used from the start of Aktion Höss to its end.

I have seen testimonies by eyewitnesses which say that they were also used in
August 1944.

 The
> deportation of some 437,000 Hungarian Jess to Auschwitz took place between
> May 15 to July 9, 1944. According to Veesenmayer some 289,000 Hungarian
> Jews- two-thirds of the total -had been deported to Auschwitz as of June
> 7, 1944.

As one can see in my Holocaust in Hungary posting, I do not dispute that.

 Taking into account that the prisoner population of Auschwitz
> increased by only 40,000 prisoners from April 5 to July 12, 1944, and that
> their is no evidence that hundreds of thousand Hungarian Jews were
> transported _from_ Auschwitz during this period, it can be concluded that
> 397,000 Hungarian Jews perished between May 15 and July 9, 1944. (Cf.
> Gutman, _Anatomy_, pp.465-466; Czech, _Auschwitz Chronicle_, pp.606,664.)

Some were killed later.

> Thus, given that only about 40,000 out of 437,000 Hungarian Jews deported
> to Auschwitz survived past July 12, 1944, it is self-evident the vast
> majority of Hungarian Jews, counter to Poopy's claim, were disposed of in
> the incineration pits bewteen May and July of 1944.

First of all, my point was that many Jews were burned in the incineration
pits as opposed to the crematoria. Van Alstine even admits that they
represented the majority.

>
> > Most Hungarian Jews sent to Auschwitz who died there, or at least a large
> > minority of them, died in the pits. The gassing and cremation facilities
were
> > insufficient.
>
> According to Piper, estimates of the Kremas' incineration capacity was
> between 7,000 to 8,000 coprses per day and the incineration pits 10,000
> per day. (Cf. Gutman, _Anatomy_, pp.166,173,180 note 55.)

I do not dispute this, but in his posting on the Holocaust in Hungary, he
said that 12,000 Hungarian Jews were shipped to Auschwitz every day, or
something like that. Moreover, some other Jews were coming from elsewhere
(e.g., Italy). It would have been impossible to dispose of all of them in the
crematoria. That was my point, even if Van Alstine chose to misinterpret it.

>
> > Some experiments, whose results are still classified, or,
> > should I say, suppressed, which were conducted by the U.S. government
> > The results were of course confiscated by one of the
> > agencies of the U.S. government on some sort of technicality....
>
> If these results of these alleged experiments are still classified how
> does Poopy know the results? Citations?

See my answer to Danny Keren. I can not prove my point, and I have given a
longer explanation in there.


>
> > ...indicate that in a test on monkeys who were subjected to gassing by
> > Zyklon B within the technical specifications suggested by standard Holocaust
> > scholarship during the 1970's, and, although I could be wrong, even now,
only
> > about half died.
>
> According to the _A FOA Briefing Book on Chemical Weapons_, when HCN is
> inhaled at a concentration of 300 mg/m3 it is "immediately lethal" -i.e.
> 100 percent fatal.* According to Pressac, on March 13, 1943, 6 kg of
> Zyklon B was used to gas 1,492 Jews from the Krakow ghetto at Krema II.

The technical specifications provided by Holocaust scholars in the 1970's were
different. Pressac published his book in 1989.


> Given that L.Keller 1 had a volume of approximately 504 cu m, and that 1
> kg of Zyklon held some 660g of prussic acid, it would mean that nearly 4
> kg of HCN was dispersed into L.Keller 1 at a concentration of almost 7.86
> g cu m. According to NI-9912 it was advised that the disinfestation of
> "bugs, lice, fleas, etc" should be carried out with a concentration of 8 g
> cu m. of prussic acid.

That's interesting. Holocaust scholars always say that the number of grams per
cubic meter used for gassing insects was much larger than the one for gassing
people. You have shown that it was pretty much the same. Thank you for you
helpful clarification.

 That the SS would use a concentration of Zyklon B
> more appropriate for killing insects makes sense, as the SS personnel who
> handled the Zyklon B were orginally trained as disinfestors by Tesch &
> Stabenow. (Cf. Gutman, _Anatomy_, pp.166,232;  Kogon, Nazi Mass Murder_,
> p.206; Pressac, _Technique_, p.19; Höss, _Death Dealer_, p.30.)
>
> *See: http://www.opcw.nl/chemhaz/hcn.htm
>
> In short, this corrosponds to an HCN concentration in the homicidal gas
> chambers  that is about _twenty-six times greater_ than the "immediately
> lethal" concentration stated in _A FOA Briefing Book on Chemical Weapons_.
>
> The lethality of Zyklon B is related by Höss, who describes a gassing at
> Krema II (or III):

Is it not possible that the experiment was suppressed because it was poorly
conducted ?


>
> 
> 
>
> The door would be screwed shut and the waiting disinfectin squads would
> immedialtely pour the gas [crystals] intot he vents in the ceiling of the
> gas chamber down an air shaft which went to the floor. This ensured the
> rapid distribution of the gas. The process could be observed through a
> peephole in the door. Thos standing next to the air shaft were killed
> immediately. I can state that about one-third died immediately.

I think that in the experiment, the monkeys were held in there for only a few
minutes. At least, that's what I teased out of my source. If they would have
been held longer, then maybe they would have all died. I assume that this is
what would have happened.


 The
> remainder staggered about and began to scream and struggle for air. The
> screaming, however, soon changed to gasping and in a few moments everyone
> lay still.[...]

I read that the whole thing took something like half an hour. Am I making a
confusion ?

> 
>
> Source: Ho"ss, _Death Dealer_, p.44.
>
> > ...I do believe that Holocaustological scholarship is right that there were
> > gassings at Auschwitz, Treblinka, Majdanek, Sobibor, Belzec and Chelmno, but
> > the details are wrong.
>
> What Poopy _believes_, as demonstrated above, is of no consequence.
> Perhaps Poopy, instead of catering to his beliefs, would care to offer
> substantial evidence?

See above. I might respond to this later. I have read a few things from
legitimate scholars (i.e., not Holocaust Deniers) which would support my
views.

>
> > A look at how many Jews were gassed at Majdanek, 50,000 or
> > whatever, and at the size of the killing facilities, etc. does give a good
> > picture of what really happened at Auschwitz.
>
> No, it does not. Poopy has to offer nothing more than his unsubstantiated
> beliefs in claiming so.

As I clarified in my answer to Danny Keren, I accept that 50,000 Jews died, or
were gassed, at Majdanek.

> > It was technically impossible to gas so many people.

I think that Reitlinger says that 700,000 Jews died at Auschwitz,
overwhelmingly in the gas chambers.

> And Poopy's proof of this is? An alleged classified experiment on monkeys?
>
I will post the documents later.

> Get real.

> > No experiments with Diesel engines or whatever were conducted...
>
I meant to say that the U.S. government seems not to have conducted an
experiment on monkeys with Diesel engines, because that would not have been
necessary. We all know that they can kill people. Moreover, Gerstein provided
some very useful testimony about Belzec.

> By whom? The Nazis?
>
> > ...but Venona, a mechanism of the O.S.S. for intercepting radio
> > transmissions seems to indicate that in the case of a number of (typical ?)
> > transports of Jews who were sent to the Operation Reinhard camps, most
> > deportees died on the way.
>
> Citation?

I can not prove that Venona intercepted communications such as these.
However, one should check out Reitlinger. "There were days when something
like 10,000 people left the assembly point in Warsaw, presumbably for
Treblinka. Therefore a large porportion must have died in the trains. The
witnesses, Wiernik and Rajzman, travelled from Warsaw under just bearable
conditions, eighty to a box car. This must have been exceptional, since both
men saw trains arriving from places less than a hundred miles away, trains in
which 80 to 90 per cent of the passengers had already died." See Gerald
Reitlinger, THE FINAL SOLUTION: THE ATTEMPT TO EXTERMINATE THE JEWS OF EUROPE
1939-1945, (New York: A.S. Barnes & Company, Inc., 1961), p. 141-142. Dr.
Daniel Keren accepted my argumentation on this issue (see his posting).

>
> > The feasibility of such a scenario is suggested by
> > the death trains associated with the so-called Iasi pogrom in Romania in
> > June-July 1941, where most of the Jews who were being shipped away from Iasi
> > died on the trains.
>
> Poopy is leaping to conclusions here. Moreover, in doing so Poopy ignores
> the body of eyewitness, documentary, and physical evidence that
> contradicts him.

I have done extensive reading only on the Holocaust in Romania and Hungary. It
would seem that I know more about that topic than Van Alstine.

In doing so Poopy is simply knocking down a strawman of
> his own devising.



>
> > Since the conditions of transportations were similar in
> > the case of the German transports, except, sometimes, for the summer heat, a
> > similar scenario would not be unreasonable.
>
> It did indeed happen on occaison. Case in point was a transport from
> Corfu.* According to Nyizsli:
>
> 
>
> In my role as Sonderkommando doctor, I was making my morning rounds. All
> four crematoriums were working at full blast. Last night they had burned
> the Greek Jews from the Mediterranean island of Corfu, one of the oldest
> communities of Europe. The victims were kept for twenty-seven days without
> food or water, first in launches, then in sealed box cars. When they
> arrived at Auschwitz's unloading platform, the doors were unlocked, but
> nobody got out and lined up for selection. Half of them were already dead,
> and the other half in a coma. The entire comvoy, without exception, was
> sent to the number two crematorium.
>
> 
>
> Source: Nyizsli, _Auschwitz_,  p.107.
>
> *This Aktion, accroding to Hilberb, takes place on June 11-17, 1944. (Cf.
> Hilberg, _Destruction_, p.452.)
>
> Again, however, Poopy is leaping to conclusions here. Simply because such
> happened to a few transports by no means indicates it happened to a
> significant number of transports. (Poopy, btw, has not offered the
> slightest shred of evidence that it did.)

Van Alstine seems to be right for Auschwitz. My argument is better supported
by the evidence from Treblinka.

  Moreover, in doing so Poopy
> ignores the body of eyewitness, documentary, and physical evidence that
> contradicts him. In doing so Poopy is simply knocking down a strawman of
> his own devising.
>
> > Reitlinger does talk a little about occurrences where most Jews on the
trains
> > sent to Treblinka, etc., died.
>
> Citation?

See above.


> > The evidence would suggest that the number of
> > Jews who died in the six camps which seem to have had gas chambers, the
> > number of Jews killed was only slightly larger than the number killed by the
> > Einsatzgruppen.
>
> According to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum , the death tolls
> at the extermination camps were:
>
> Auschwitz ................................ 1,100,000
> Belzec ................................ ..   600,000
> Chelmno ..................................   320,000
> Majdanek..................................   360,000
> Sobibor ..................................   250,000
> Treblinka .................................  700-850,000
>
>                              Total ....... 3,330,000 to 3,480,000
>
> Cf. USHMM, _Hostorical Atlas of the Holocaust_, pp. 86,89,92,97,102.

I am going to deal with the numbers later. However, Die Institut fur
Zeitgeschichte in Munnich has different numbers. I think that the Cybrary of
the Holocaust or something like this has them.


> That's over half the Jewish death toll in the Holocaust.

It would be if Van Alstine were right.

>
> > Jean-Marie Le Pen said that the gas chambers at Auschwitz
> > were a detail of history.
>
> How trite of Le Pen to dismiss the murder of 1.1. million people as a
> "detail of history."

On p. 500, Reitlinger says that "Auschwitz, in spite of its immense siymbolic
significanc, probably contributed less than a fifth of the victims (see pages
460-461). In talking about Auschwitz, on p. 461, he says, "Of this total,
550,000 to 600,000 may have been gassed on arrival and to this must be added
the unknown portion of the 300,000 or more, missing from the camp, who were
'selected' [for the gas chamber]. On p. 501, he gives the summary of the Jews
who died during the Holocaust (4,194,200 to 4,581,200).

>
> > They were statistically less significant than we
> > might think.
>
> How "statistically less significant" does Poopy think the murder of over a
> million people at Auschwitz is?

I do not accept the one million figure.

> > Perhaps only slightly more than 1.5 million, and perhaps only
> > slightly more than a million, Jews died in the above-mentioned six camps.
>
> Because you say so? Perhaps Poopy is full of poop.
>
Perhaps I am.

> [snip]
>
> >  ...I would like to say this about what I have written: take it, or leave
it.
>
> I'll leave it.

Good for Mr. Van Alstine. We do not need to be bothered by complexities, do
we ?

 It's the usual pile of denier crap.
>
Finally, I am called a Holocaust Denier. "Brilliant" analysis.



How many Jews did I say died in the Holocaust in my posting ? Why did you
erase it ? So that you can call me a Holocaust Denier ? I think that your aim
is not debate, but censorship.

And by the way, what is Mark's ethnic background ? Dutch ?


> Mark
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line seperating good and evil
passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political
parties--but right through every human heart--and all human hearts."
>
> -- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>


--
George Popovici

Silence is an answer, but not the answer.

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp   Create Your Own Free Member Forum


From gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com Sat Jul 25 18:19:46 EDT 1998
Article: 194084 of alt.revisionism
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From: gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.romania,soc.culture.magyar,soc.culture.polish
Subject: Re: What Occupies Van Alstine's Mind - Dicks, Pricks & Penises - His Words!
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 17:05:49 GMT
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In article ,
  mvanalst@!spam!home.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
> In article <6pak93$d6g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com
wrote:
>
> > In article ,
> >   mvanalst@!spam!home.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
> > > In article <6p88q4$keu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > More on van Alstine's obscenities. This should tell us a lot about his
> > > > "scholarship".
> > >
> > > Nope. It should tell you the the degree of contempt I hold Holocaust
> > > deniers, Nazi apologists, anti-Semites and other pin-headed racists in.
> >
> > This point is logical enough, and even understandable, and it might even
> > excuse his techniques. However, I would like to know at what scholarly
> > conferences this terminology has been used previously. At any rate, talking
> > about genitalia at most makes one a good sexologist, not a good historian.
Of
> > course, since van Alstine defends President Clinton, we should not be
> > surprised by his language. He talks about what the Clintons do, and
> > attributes it to other people.
> >
> > >
> > > BTW, your dishonesty and hypocrisy _do_ tell us a lot about _your_
> > > "scholarship."
> >
> > What exactly ? I would like a specific, falsifiable statement.

I have seen the specific statements in the Holocaust in Hungary thread.

> Already demonstrated, Poopy. Go back and read my posts.

I disagree. One should see how I bloodied van Alstine.


> [snip]
>
> Mark
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line seperating good and evil
passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political
parties--but right through every human heart--and all human hearts."
>
> -- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>


--
George Popovici

Silence is an answer, but not the answer.
(George Popovici, ancestor of the poster,

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com Sat Jul 25 18:19:48 EDT 1998
Article: 194085 of alt.revisionism
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From: gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.romania,soc.culture.magyar,soc.culture.polish
Subject: Re: What Occupies Van Alstine's Mind - Dicks, Pricks & Penises - His Words!
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In article <35b8de4d.88683663@news.sig.net>,
  mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:
> gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> >In article ,
> >  mvanalst@!spam!home.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
> >> In article <6p88q4$keu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com
> >wrote:
>
> >  Thank you for your compliments, Mr. Mark van Alstine. I enjoyed them. Now
> >he is treating me like I were a Holocaust Denier. A better idea would be for
> >Mark van Alstine to answer my 30K posting. I could have made it longer, but
> >this can not be done in my-dejanews. For whatever reason, he is accusing all
> >of his critics of dishonesty and hypocrisy, or whatever.
>
> Did he provide examples of the hypocrisies he's claiming?

Of alleged dishonesty, but in another thread. And, of course, I rebutted.

> [snip]
>
> >would suggest to van Alstine to contact Kenneth McVay of the Nizkor Project
> >about me. He will find out from Ken that I am not dishonest, hypocritical, or
> >whatever, and that I am a sort of "academic revisionist",
>
> These quotes serve a purpose of some kind?

I do not understand what is meant in here. You should contact Kenneth McVay.
The quotes are used to cite McVay.

>
> > and that I
> >genuinely had technical difficulties which prevented me from posting. He
> >should also read the letter that I originally sent him, and he will find out
> >that I am not a "Holocaust Denier".
>
> I'm not sure what an "academic revisionist" is. I know what historians
> who write revisionist histories are. They are historians.

I am also something like that. See my Holocaust in Hungary postings, etc.

>
> [snipped whining]
>
> >chance, it so happens that I have an M.A. in History.
>
> You have an M.A. "by chance"? How do you get an M.A. "by chance?"

Nitpicking. I obtained an M.A. in History by studying part time. However, this
was not known by the readers until now.

> > What kind of training
> >in History does Mr. van Alstine have ? Insults 101 ? Or is it Political
> >Correctness 101 ? Or perhaps Hilberg 101 ? Or Ego 101 ? Introduction to
> >Talmudic Studies ? No, that would be too intellectual for him. Shoah 101 ?
> >Holocaustology 101 ? (For the record, the term "Holocaustology" was coined by
> >Professor Yehuda Bauer of Israel.)
>
> Think that Mark is an informed lay-person.  Seems he has popped
> your buttons very well.

In Holocaust in Hungary ? Oh, you are just biased in his favor.

>
> > I dare him to try to prove that I am
> >anti-Semitic or whatever. The fact that I respond to taunts by taunting back
> >does not prove anything.
>
> Well, it proves you have a thin skin and have lost whatever the
> argument was. 

I did not.

>
> >  The fact that he accused me of dishonesty is
> >telling.
>
> Did he provide evidence of your dishonesty?
>
> > I have said in a posting that "If he is going to accuse me of
> >dishonesty, this will only show with whom I am dealing with." It does. I have
>
> It depends if he provided evidence of you dishonesty.

The evidence is false, and was rebutted.

>
> >always tried to be polite. Politeness shows good breeding.  As a punishment,
> >I will post more materials from more sources which go against what van
> >Alstine is saying.
>
> I see. So you will proceed to flood the group with propaganda rather
> than behave like someone with a M.A. in history.

If Gerald Reitlinger, Arno Mayer and the more obscure sources that I cited are
"propaganda", then I plead guilty. But they are not. Moreover, I do not intend
to flood alt.revisionism with anything. I have better things to do.

 This ought to be a
> childish show.

Van Alstine has made it, and I have added to it. Both of us have acted in
somewhat childish ways. But he "punched" first, as I used to say to my
teacher.

At any rate, like Ken McVay and Danny Keren, you see like a decent guy,
concerned with the historical truth.

>
> Mike Curtis
>
>


--
George Popovici

Silence is an answer, but not the answer.

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp   Create Your Own Free Member Forum


From gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com Sat Jul 25 18:19:49 EDT 1998
Article: 194090 of alt.revisionism
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From: gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What Occupies Van Alstine's Mind - Dicks, Pricks & Penises - His Words!
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 17:44:42 GMT
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In article <1998072421392100.RAA05493@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
  chuckf2323@aol.com (ChuckF2323) wrote:
> < Words!
> From: gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com
> Date: Fri, Jul 24, 1998 6:37 PM
> Message-id: <6pak93$d6g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
>
> In article ,
>   mvanalst@!spam!home.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
> > In article <6p88q4$keu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com
> wrote:
> >
> > > More on van Alstine's obscenities. This should tell us a lot about his
> > > "scholarship".
> >
> > Nope. It should tell you the the degree of contempt I hold Holocaust
> > deniers, Nazi apologists, anti-Semites and other pin-headed racists in.
>
> This point is logical enough, and even understandable, and it might even
> excuse his techniques. However, I would like to know at what scholarly
> conferences this terminology has been used previously. At any rate, talking
> about genitalia at most makes one a good sexologist, not a good historian. Of
> course, since van Alstine defends President Clinton, we should not be
> surprised by his language. He talks about what the Clintons do, and
> attributes it to other people.
>
> CF:>>>>>Van Alstine, is an O.K. guy.

I would like to see that. I am open minded. He obviously unnecessarily annoyed
me, and this explains the nature of my reaction to him. However, he is
perhaps not well-read in the Holocaust, but only knows a few books. My sources
are legitimate.

 Swearing, doesn't diminish what Mark has
> to say. Your hiding behind a fake posting name, tells us all we need to know
> about you.



Ken McVay posted for me once, under my name, George Popovici. Everyone else,
including the people from the U.S.H.M.M. and van Alstine, seem to accept that
I am George Popovici. For the record, I am not the George Popovici who is
selling books and stuff on the internet. It is nevertheless true that I have
sometimes interchanged my middle with my first name, and my last name from
birth with my step-father's name, without violating any law. My current legal
name is the one mentioned above. If my critic would have been partly in the
business of digging dirt on Clinton, he would have done done a little bit of
name manipulation himself, by using previous legal names, when he would have
asked questions about what Vernon Jordan said about Clinton's genitalia, etc.

> BTW I doubt if you can drag Ken McVay into a Mickey Mouse, childish argument.

Both Mr. Van Alstine and I have been somewhat childish, but, as one can see
>from  the postings, he started it first.

I do not know whether you are a decent guy, like Ken McVay, Mike Curtis and
Danny Keren, or a seemigly nasty one like Van Alstine. However, you and van
Alstine would have trouble converting Holocaust Deniers. Or at least, that's
what I assume, although I am not, have not been, and will not be, a Holocaust
Denier (see my postings). What I mean to say is that I do not know how the
mind of Holocaust Deniers works, nor do I care to find out. Their biases
partly explain their views, and in their self-discrediting. I simply know how
the average people would react to van Alstine.

>
> Chuck Ferree
> deleted...phony balony
>
> Please visit these web sites:
>
> http://remember.org/index.html

I even got some anti-Van Alstine information from the above-mentioned website.

> http://www2.3dresearch.com/~june/Vincent/Camps/CampsEngl.html
>
>


--
George Popovici

Silence is an answer, but not the answer.

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp   Create Your Own Free Member Forum


From gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com Sat Jul 25 18:19:51 EDT 1998
Article: 194108 of alt.revisionism
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From: gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.magyar,soc.culture.romanian,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.israel
Subject: Re: (2) Re: Holocaust in Hungary (I): (...)
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In article ,
  mvanalst@!spam!home.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
> In article <6pas9t$nqq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com
wrote:
>
> > In article ,
> >   mvanalst@!spam!home.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
> > > In article <6p869d$hjt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com
> > wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > > There is certainly _German_ documentation concerning this: Luther via
> > > Weizsäcker to Ribbontrop, February 11, 1942, NG-4817.
> >
> > What volume, and what edition of the full text of the trials ?
>
> You have the Masters in history, Poopy. Show the research skills you were
> taught.

My answer is: 1. Then why do you ask me for citations ? 2. Sometimes I am
lazy.

3. No Holocaust historian specializing in Romania, neither Radu Ioanid, nor
Jean Ancel, nor Julius Fisher, nor Th. Lavi, nor Lya Benjamin, nor anybody
else, has used the above mentioned document, or talked about the 10,000 Jews
sent over the Bug and back again. Rabbi Fisher in fact even criticized
Reitlinger for being wrong in using it. I have already cited the names of
some of the books. Van Alstine should have also read my explanations sent to
him in the letter from June.


> [snip]
>
> > > > > > > Those who were already across were shipped back to the
Transnistrian
> > > > > > > port of Odessa. As the flow of Jews across the Bug was stemmed,
the
> > > > > > > Foreign Office received a report that the receeding masses of Jews
> > were
> > > > > > > subjected to killing operations."About 28,000 Jews were taken to
> > German
> > > > > > > villages in Transistria,"
> > > >
> > > > Which proves that these people were not deported east of the Bug as van
> > > > Alstine claims.  wrote a
> > >
> > > "At the beginning of February, 1942, the Ministry for Eastern Occupied
> > > Territories informed the German Foreign Office that the Roumanians had
> > > sudenly deported 10,000 Jews across the Bug in Vosnesenk area and that
> > > another 60,000 were expected to follow." (Cf. Hilberg, _Destruction_,
> > > p.497; ref. NG-4817 .)
> > >
> > > Cleary, according to Luther's report, 10,000 Jews _were_ deported across
> > > the Bug.
> >
> > One does not have to believe everything that the German government or its
> > henchmen said about the Jews is true.
>
> By the same token, Poopy, one does not have to believe everything that
> apologists for mass murder say, either.
>

Is he implying that I am an "apologist for mass murder" ? Is he conceding
that I am right on the issue of the 10,000.

I am not going to prove that I am right. If van Alstine wants to make a fool
of himself, then let him believe in what Hilberg wrote on this issue, and in
his German documents. He should consult the article by Jean Ancel in Yad
Vashem Studies, in 1993, and all the other sources, whether ever quoted by
title by me, in whatever context, or not, at the right page. These sources do
not talk about this kind of transfer, imply that the Germans did not want any
Jew to cross the Bug to the German-occuppied Ukraine, and sometimes talk
about the fact that the Romanians wanted to transfer the Jews held at
Bogdanovka, Domanovka and Akhmetchtka to the the east of the Bug. The Germans
refused, the Jews were held there, nobody wanted them, or knew what to do
with them, epidemics started, and they got sick, and were finally killed.
See, for example, the article by Jean Ancel "The Romanian Campaigns of Mass
Murder in Transnistria, 1941-1942", in Randolph Braham (ed.), The Destruction
of Romanian and Ukrainian Jews during the Antonescu Era, (Boulder, Colorado,
1997) for the fate of the local Transnistrian Jews in southern Transnistria,
where you can find a great deal of information, like in the above-mentioned
article in Yad Vashem Studies from 1993. Also see the collection of documents
edited by Jean Ancel cited below, which might provide some additional
background for those who do not know what they are talking about, but know
the Romanian language. My interpretation of the documents is not identical to
Ancel's, but we agree on the basic facts summarized by me in this posting.


> [snip]
>
> > > And this somehow excuses the extermination of 48,000 Jews, for example, at
> > > Bogdanovka on December 21-23, 1941? Moreover this does not address the
> > > German Foreign Office reporting on May 16, 1942, that "about 28,000 Jews
> > > were taken to German villiges Transnistria" where they were subsequently
> > > liquidated. (Cf. Hilberg, _Destruction_, pp.496,497; ref. Note by Triska,
> > > May 16, 1942, NG-4817.)
> > >
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Source: Hilberg, _The Destruction of the European Jews_, p.497.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If by extermination camps you mean camps with gas chambers,
> > > > > > > > if you include only Romanian citizens, and if you exclude
Romanian
> > > > > > > > Jews residing outside the country, then the answer is ZERO.
Until
> > some
> > > > > > > > time in early 1943, some Polish Jews who had illegally entered
> > > > > > > > Bucovina were expelled back to Poland, and the Nazis probably
took
> > > > > > > > these 200 or so people to camps with gas chambers.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Actually, Romania was the only country in WWII besides Nazi
> Germany to
> > > > > > > build and operate (albeit small) _extermination_ camps (sans gas
> > > > > > > chambers):- meaning without gas chambers.
> > > >
> > > > Romania did not "build" or "operate" extermination camps.
> >
> > Auschwitz and Treblinka were "built" and "operated", Bogdanovka was simply a
> > collection of pig sties from a huge Soviet sovkhoz or kolkhoz.
>
> Who forced the Jews into these pig sties, Poopy?

Modest Isopescu and his subordinates.

 Who kept them in filth
> and privation while they starved?

Modest Isopescu and his subordinates.

 Who pulled the triggers and killed them,
> Poopy?

Ditto.

> Romanians. That who. What do you call a place where such things are if not
> a Romanian extermination camp?
>

They were extermination sites or camps. At any rate, we agree on all the basic
facts about Romania as far as I know, but you just want to call me names.

> > > Then what do you call Bogdanovka? What do you call a camp where some
> > > 48,000 Jews were forced to strip naked in sub-zero weather and were then
> > > shot to death?
> >
> > If the camp would have been "built" and "operated", then there would not
have
> > been any need for such "artisanal" methods.
>
> Oh, you think forcing the victims to strip naked in sub-zero weather and
> stand around for hours before killing them requires an artiste, eh, Poopy?
>

The gas chambers and crematoria represented industrial-scale mass killing,
shooting is "artisanal". I have no idea what the reference to "artiste" means.

> BTW, Evasion noted, Poopy.

Where ?


> [snip]
>
> > > > Some concentration camps became extermination sites because of outbreaks
> > > > of typhus.
> > >
> > > Are you saying that the shooting 48,000 people was because of typhus
> > > outbreaks?
> >
> > Prove that it was not.
>
> Your claim, your burden of proof, Poopy.
>

There are many such sources. The materials related to the trial of Modest
Isopescu in Jean Ancel (ed.), Documents Concerning the Fate of Romanian Jewry
during the Holocaust, vol. 5 and 6, published by the Klarsfeld Foundation,
Jerusalem and New York, 1986, are highly recommended reading. At any rate,
the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust (fully cited by me elsewhere), vol. 1, p.
226, says, "Several cases of typhus broke out in the camp in mid-December
[1941]. In consultation with Fleischer, the German adviser to the Romanian
administration of the district, Isopescu decided to kill the entire camp
population and issued an order to this effect to Vasile Manescu, the military
government official in charge of the district. Taking part in the operation
were Romanian troops and gendarmerie, Ukrainian police, and civilians from
the town of Golta brought in for this purpose, as well as local ethnic
Germans (Volksdeutsche)." The relationship between the typhus epidemic and
the shootings is perhaps not stated clearly enough for Van Alstine, but in
other sources, including the above-mentioned connection of documents, it is.
Of course, the Jews should have have received medication, treatment, better
living conditions, not a bullet in the neck. In fact, they should not have
been taken away from their homes to be brought to the district headed by
Modest Isopescu. I can understand how my attempt to deal rationally, with the
use of documentation, with an event of the horror and magnitude of the
Holocaust might make some people uneasy. Yet my facts are not wrong, and the
insults heaped on me are undeserved. Yet I have always endured the insults of
those who did not appreciate my fairness and honesty.


> [Poopy's whining snipped]
>
> > You have misrepresented my views very often, even if unconsciously.
>
> No, Poopy, I have simply exposed your lies and misrepresentations and that
> puts a twist in your knickers.
>
Really ?

> > > > Where did I say that I agree with Mayer ?
> > >
> > > I claimed you _distorted_ Mayer. Why? Evidently so that you could say that
> > > Mayer supported your hypocrisy.
> >
> > Please define in what way I am hypocritical.
>
> Already did Poopy, if you can't keep up with the program go back and read
> my posts.
>
That's funny.

> > > > What nefarious purposes would I have to do that ?
> > >
> > > White-washing mass murder?
> >
> > Are you sure ?
>
> I'm surer now than when I replied to your first post, Poopy.
>

The one from June ? Does it mean that you made the same assumption at that
time ? And would you tell me whether this desire to white-wash mass murder is
conscious or unconscious, how you can read my mind, etc. ? I must admit that
it is possible that unconsciously I might have certain feelings which
influence my postings and give off the kind of impression mentioned by my
critic, but he would have to prove it, because I find this scenario possible,
but by no means certain. Moreover, you can convince me only with facts, not
insults. If someone insults me, I try to "get them".


> > Is scholarly minimization the same thing as white-washing ?
>
>  Is "scholarly minimization" the same as crasppy research and a flawed
> assumptions?
>

Since Mayer is a crappy researcher and makes flawed assumptions according to
van Alstine, I am not surprised that he implies that I am in this category.
We should assume that my critic is God's gift to Holocaust research.

> > Is Arno Mayer a white-washer.
>
> In regard to _Heavens_? No. Just a crappy researcher with flawed assumptions.
>
> > And are you not a defender of Clinton ?
>
> Clinton who?
>

Sophistry. President Clinton.

> > > > Fit for labor in Auschwitz. Others were deported to camps in Germany.
> > >
> > > And your proof of this is? Why none of course.
> >
> > In Yad Vashem Studies from, I believe, 1993, there is an article by
Francizek
> > Piper in which he shows that 25,000, or at least 25,000, of the Hungarian
Jews
> > were shipped to the West without even being registered at Auschwitz.
>
> They were called "depot Jews," and were kept in the "Mexico" camp at
> Birkenau. And if you claim they were all shipped to Germany in _addition_
> to currently excepted totals all you need to do is supply the transport
> records and reconcile them with the
> >

Available documentation ?

> > > On the other hand, one can
> > > read the daily entries in Czech's _Auschwitz Chronicle_ for the perod of
> > > Aktion Höss and see that the vast majority of Hungarian Jews _not_ "fit
> > > for work" were killed in the gas chambers.
> >
> > There are entries for only some of the transports.
>
> That's correct. However, my point was that the numerous entries offer a
> representative _sampling_ indicating the high percentage of deportees from
> the transport were sent to the gas chambers.

This is a reasonable assumption. This does not indicate my agreement with it.

>
> > > > Much more than 10% were not sent immediately to the gas chamber, as the
> > > > quotation from Mayer shows.
> > >
> > > So you _are_ agreeing with Mayer.
> >
> > I am agreeing with his direction, not with the magnitude implied by him, and
> > by the documents cited by him. Don't try that sophistry on me.
>
> Oh, so now you agree to disagree with Mayer. Until next time. Hmmm.
>

You use the techniques which one commonly associates with the Holocaust
Deniers.


> > > It seems you like to change your spots when it suits your purposes.
> >
> > You are interested in sophistry, not scholarship.
>
No answer.

> You interested in white-washing mass murder, not scholorship.
>
Name-calling.

> > > Too bad you don't seem to comprehend Mayer's writing.
> >
> > Do you ?
>
> Yes. Well enough to detect _your_ distortions of it.
>

First of all, if I used Mayer in a way which might have been somewhat
inappropriate, it was not by design, but because I had read the book a long
time ago, and because I take poor notes when I do not have to take good
notes. Finally, I do not own the book. I just made a few photocopies from it.

> [snip]
>
> Mark

The readers should look at the comments and sources used by me to which Van
Alstine chose not to respond to.

Now let us answer in an adequate manner how many Jews survived the Holocaust
in Romania. Van Alstine's figure of 430,000, from Hilberg, is a fair
approximation of the number of Jews after the war. In 1947, there were
428,312 Jews in Romania. See Peter Meyer et al., THE JEWS IN THE SOVIET
SATELLITES, (The American Jewish Committee, 1953), p. 516. About 35,000, says
the same source on p. 554, were Jews from (northern Transylvania) who
returned from "Germany (forced labor)". "Twenty thousand refugees, over and
above the figure mentioned, were classified by them as refugees from Poland,
Hungary, etc." The explanation for the difference between the 44,000 figure
mentioned in a previous posting, and the above-mentioned 35,000 is
interesting. The 44,000 people mentioned in a different posting might include
the Northern Transylvanian Jews who remained in the West. The book REMEMBER:
40 YEARS SINCE THE MASSACRE OF THE JEWS FROM NORTHERN TRANSYLVANIA UNDER
HORTHYIST DOMINATION, published by the Federation of Jewish Communities in
the Socialist Republic of Romania, in Bucharest, in 1985, says, on page 58,
that 10,000 survivors from Northern Transylvania went to other areas of the
world. At any rate, discrepancies between Holocaustological sources sometimes
do happen, and a discrepancy of 1,000 people (44,000 vs. 45,000) is no big
problem. Perhaps the number was 44,500. By contrast, 90,295 died, or roughly
two-thirds of the deportees. This picture would be consistent with my
sources, not van Alstine's.

I must admit that, despite the swearing, the sophistry and the nastiness, van
Alstine seems to be underneath well-intentioned. The fact that he conceded to
one of my points, although he should have conceded to more of them, places
him a few steps above the Holocaust Deniers. Even so, he should learn not to
treat all of his critics like he treats the Holocaust Deniers, because some
of us are not. It must also be noted that our hostility toward each other is
partly caused by the fact that we have bruised each other's egos. One should
also note that my first posting in June was exactly in response to the
tendency to minimize the Holocaust in Romania among ethnic Romanians, and to
Satanize Horthy. I and van Alstine have the same goal, historical truth, but
our methods differ, and we sometimes get carried away. I will let the readers
decide which one of us was right more often than the other. Personally, I
think that I won the debate. Another issue is: van Alstine has some
deficiencies. But why does he have them ? Perhaps because he has been
debating Holocaust Deniers for too long, and they make him sick. Although I
am not going to make excuses for him, I think that if the circumstances would
have been different (if he would not have attacked me unfairly the first
time), I might very well have defended him. However, I respond to aggression
by fighting back, and for no reason in the world will I ever say that I am
wrong if I believe that I am right.

In connection with the Braham article in the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, I
simply read the article a long time ago, and yesterday, I looked only for the
numbers. I did not see the last page, with Braham's name on it.

> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line seperating good and evil
passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political
parties--but right through every human heart--and all human hearts."
>
> -- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>


--
George Popovici

Silence is an answer, but not the answer.
(George Popovici, ancestor of the poster,

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com Sun Jul 26 13:32:06 EDT 1998
Article: 194323 of alt.revisionism
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From: gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: (2) Re: Holocaust in Hungary (I): (...)
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 16:22:32 GMT
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In article <6pcsuh$7ln@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>,
  "Istvan Lippai"  wrote:
> Keeping your discussion, which turned into nothing more than exchanges of
> insults, to only one list, would be appreciated.
>
> The NG, I left seems the appropriate one.

Thank you very much, sir. Perhaps you are right. From now on, I will not
answer back van Alstine's insults. Both you (in a general way, which applies
to both me and van Alstine) and Kenneth McVay (in his personal mail sent to
me) have advised me to do this. If I won't forget, which I tend to do when I
get carried away, I will keep the discussion limited to alt.revisionism.

Regards, George Popovici

> Regards, Istvan
>
> Mark Van Alstine  wrote in article
> ...
> > In article <6pas9t$nqq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com
> wrote:
> >
> > > In article ,
> > >   mvanalst@!spam!home.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
> > > > In article <6p869d$hjt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com
> > > wrote:
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > > > There is certainly _German_ documentation concerning this: Luther
> via
> > > > Weizsäcker to Ribbontrop, February 11, 1942, NG-4817.
> > >
> > > What volume, and what edition of the full text of the trials ?
> >
> > You have the Masters in history, Poopy. Show the research skills you
> were
> > taught.
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > > > > > > > Those who were already across were shipped back to the
> Transnistrian
> > > > > > > > port of Odessa. As the flow of Jews across the Bug was
> stemmed, the
> > > > > > > > Foreign Office received a report that the receeding masses
> of Jews
> > > were
> > > > > > > > subjected to killing operations."About 28,000 Jews were
> taken to
> > > German
> > > > > > > > villages in Transistria,"
> > > > >
> > > > > Which proves that these people were not deported east of the Bug
> as van
> > > > > Alstine claims.  wrote a
> > > >
> > > > "At the beginning of February, 1942, the Ministry for Eastern
> Occupied
> > > > Territories informed the German Foreign Office that the Roumanians
> had
> > > > sudenly deported 10,000 Jews across the Bug in Vosnesenk area and
> that
> > > > another 60,000 were expected to follow." (Cf. Hilberg,
> _Destruction_,
> > > > p.497; ref. NG-4817 .)
> > > >
> > > > Cleary, according to Luther's report, 10,000 Jews _were_ deported
> across
> > > > the Bug.
> > >
> > > One does not have to believe everything that the German government or
> its
> > > henchmen said about the Jews is true.
> >
> > By the same token, Poopy, one does not have to believe everything that
> > apologists for mass murder say, either.
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > > > And this somehow excuses the extermination of 48,000 Jews, for
> example, at
> > > > Bogdanovka on December 21-23, 1941? Moreover this does not address
> the
> > > > German Foreign Office reporting on May 16, 1942, that "about 28,000
> Jews
> > > > were taken to German villiges Transnistria" where they were
> subsequently
> > > > liquidated. (Cf. Hilberg, _Destruction_, pp.496,497; ref. Note by
> Triska,
> > > > May 16, 1942, NG-4817.)
> > > >
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Source: Hilberg, _The Destruction of the European Jews_,
> p.497.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > If by extermination camps you mean camps with gas
> chambers,
> > > > > > > > > if you include only Romanian citizens, and if you exclude
> Romanian
> > > > > > > > > Jews residing outside the country, then the answer is
> ZERO. Until
> > > some
> > > > > > > > > time in early 1943, some Polish Jews who had illegally
> entered
> > > > > > > > > Bucovina were expelled back to Poland, and the Nazis
> probably took
> > > > > > > > > these 200 or so people to camps with gas chambers.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Actually, Romania was the only country in WWII besides Nazi
> > Germany to
> > > > > > > > build and operate (albeit small) _extermination_ camps (sans
> gas
> > > > > > > > chambers):- meaning without gas chambers.
> > > > >
> > > > > Romania did not "build" or "operate" extermination camps.
> > >
> > > Auschwitz and Treblinka were "built" and "operated", Bogdanovka was
> simply a
> > > collection of pig sties from a huge Soviet sovkhoz or kolkhoz.
> >
> > Who forced the Jews into these pig sties, Poopy? Who kept them in filth
> > and privation while they starved? Who pulled the triggers and killed
> them,
> > Poopy?
> >
> > Romanians. That who. What do you call a place where such things are if
> not
> > a Romanian extermination camp?
> >
> > > > Then what do you call Bogdanovka? What do you call a camp where some
> > > > 48,000 Jews were forced to strip naked in sub-zero weather and were
> then
> > > > shot to death?
> > >
> > > If the camp would have been "built" and "operated", then there would
> not have
> > > been any need for such "artisanal" methods.
> >
> > Oh, you think forcing the victims to strip naked in sub-zero weather and
> > stand around for hours before killing them requires an artiste, eh,
> Poopy?
> >
> >
> > BTW, Evasion noted, Poopy.
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > > > > Some concentration camps became extermination sites because of
> outbreaks
> > > > > of typhus.
> > > >
> > > > Are you saying that the shooting 48,000 people was because of typhus
> > > > outbreaks?
> > >
> > > Prove that it was not.
> >
> > Your claim, your burden of proof, Poopy.
> >
> > [Poopy's whining snipped]
> >
> > > You have misrepresented my views very often, even if unconsciously.
> >
> > No, Poopy, I have simply exposed your lies and misrepresentations and
> that
> > puts a twist in your knickers.
> >
> > > > > Where did I say that I agree with Mayer ?
> > > >
> > > > I claimed you _distorted_ Mayer. Why? Evidently so that you could
> say that
> > > > Mayer supported your hypocrisy.
> > >
> > > Please define in what way I am hypocritical.
> >
> > Already did Poopy, if you can't keep up with the program go back and
> read
> > my posts.
> >
> > > > > What nefarious purposes would I have to do that ?
> > > >
> > > > White-washing mass murder?
> > >
> > > Are you sure ?
> >
> > I'm surer now than when I replied to your first post, Poopy.
> >
> > > Is scholarly minimization the same thing as white-washing ?
> >
> >  Is "scholarly minimization" the same as crasppy research and a flawed
> > assumptions?
> >
> > > Is Arno Mayer a white-washer.
> >
> > In regard to _Heavens_? No. Just a crappy researcher with flawed
> assumptions.
> >
> > > And are you not a defender of Clinton ?
> >
> > Clinton who?
> >
> > > > > Fit for labor in Auschwitz. Others were deported to camps in
> Germany.
> > > >
> > > > And your proof of this is? Why none of course.
> > >
> > > In Yad Vashem Studies from, I believe, 1993, there is an article by
> Francizek
> > > Piper in which he shows that 25,000, or at least 25,000, of the
> Hungarian Jews
> > > were shipped to the West without even being registered at Auschwitz.
> >
> > They were called "depot Jews," and were kept in the "Mexico" camp at
> > Birkenau. And if you claim they were all shipped to Germany in
> _addition_
> > to currently excepted totals all you need to do is supply the transport
> > records and reconcile them with the
> > >
> > > > On the other hand, one can
> > > > read the daily entries in Czech's _Auschwitz Chronicle_ for the
> perod of
> > > > Aktion Höss and see that the vast majority of Hungarian Jews _not_
> "fit
> > > > for work" were killed in the gas chambers.
> > >
> > > There are entries for only some of the transports.
> >
> > That's correct. However, my point was that the numerous entries offer a
> > representative _sampling_ indicating the high percentage of deportees
> from
> > the transport were sent to the gas chambers.
> >
> > > > > Much more than 10% were not sent immediately to the gas chamber,
> as the
> > > > > quotation from Mayer shows.
> > > >
> > > > So you _are_ agreeing with Mayer.
> > >
> > > I am agreeing with his direction, not with the magnitude implied by
> him, and
> > > by the documents cited by him. Don't try that sophistry on me.
> >
> > Oh, so now you agree to disagree with Mayer. Until next time. Hmmm.
> >
> > > > It seems you like to change your spots when it suits your purposes.
> > >
> > > You are interested in sophistry, not scholarship.
> >
> > You interested in white-washing mass murder, not scholorship.
> >
> > > > Too bad you don't seem to comprehend Mayer's writing.
> > >
> > > Do you ?
> >
> > Yes. Well enough to detect _your_ distortions of it.
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > "Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line seperating good and evil
> passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political
> parties--but right through every human heart--and all human hearts."
> >
> > -- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
>


--
George Popovici

Silence is an answer, but not the answer.
(George Popovici, ancestor of the poster,

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com Thu Jul 30 18:40:01 EDT 1998
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From: gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Central Sauna
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 19:03:43 GMT
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In article ,
  mvanalst@!spam!home.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
> In article <6pcvab$bh3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com
wrote:
>
> > In article ,
> >   dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
> > > gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com writes:
> > >
>
> [snip]
>
> > > # the U.S. government on some sort of technicality.
> > >
> > > Any solid evidence for this?
> >
> > I can not make public the evidence that I have. Moreover, my evidence is not
> > solid. It's simply that the person who told me all of these things is
> > personally honest.
>
> Unsubstantitiated appeals to authority are not acceptable, Poopy.

Fair enough.

> > However, there is a book by a guy named Edward Taub which
> > describes how the same thing was done to experiments on monkey physiology
> > during the 1970's.
>
> And? Citation?

The monkeys, the data of the experiments, etc., were confiscated, and the
data has not been made public, because of the accusations against the
scientists of "cruelty toward animals". The Edward Taub story had nothing to
do with the Holocaust. I will have to find out the name of the book written
by this prominent scientist who was accused of torturing animals, etc. And
even if I find it, it might be far away from where I can get it. At any rate,
there was a big deal of hoopla about animal rights during the early 1970's.
The Holocaust-related experiments were done by some other people, and the
data might have been confiscated under the same pretext (cruelty against
animals).

>
> > > # I do believe that Holocaustological scholarship is right that
> > > # there were gassings at Auschwitz, Treblinka, Majdanek, Sobibor,
> > > # Belzec and Chelmno, but the details are wrong. A look at how
> > > # many Jews were gassed at Majdanek, 50,000 or whatever, and at
> > > # the size of the killing facilities, etc. does give a good
> > > # picture of what really happened at Auschwitz. It was technically
> > > # impossible to gas so many people.
> >
> > I meant to say that for Auschwitz, on the basis of the gassing facilities at
> > Majdanek.
> >
> > >
> > > Why? I saw the gas chambers in Maidanek. They are not small
> > > (although smaller than the ones in Auschwitz).
> >
> > What I meant to say is that it was technically impossible to gas 1 million
> > Jews at Auschwitz....
>
> Prove it. You know, Poopy, generally when sombody says "it was impossible"
> it is expected that they back up such extreme claims with _really_ solid
> evidence.
>

It is my contention that less than 1 million were gassed (see my previous
answer to you, and my answer to Danny Keren). The issue for me is not how
many could have been gassed, but how many were actually gassed.

> [snip]
>
> >  As for
> > > Auschwitz, considering the size of the gas chambers, it was also
> > > possible to gas about a million people there.
> >
> > I am not an expert on the topic, but I think that the number of dead Jews at
> > Auschwitz according to Pressac was something like 700-770,000.
>
> Do you know how Pressac came to such a number, Poopy? Citations? Are you
> deferring to Pressac's opinions? Why, for example, do you ignore Piper's
> estimate?

I will cite my sources later. I must confess that I have not read Pressac's
latest book, and did not completely read his book from 1989. I have seen the
newest one cited by a respectable source and by Faurisson. Since the numbers
did not greatly differ I think that I have not greatly misstated his figures.
See my answer to you in which I cited Reitlinger. I will deal with the
statistics in a later posting, as well as with other issues (see my other
postings).

>
> > > [Long analysis of the number of Holocaust victims deleted]
> > >
> > > There isn't really any strong evidence you offer to support
> > > these figures, unless you count those who died during transports
> > > to a certain camp as not having died in the camp,
> >
> > I do.
> >
> >  and if you
> > > maintain that half or more died during transit - of which I
> > > am not sure.
> >
> > I do.
>
> Prove it. You know, Poopy, generally when sombody makes such a definitive
> statement it is expected that they back up such claims with _really_ solid
> evidence.
>

See my quotations about Treblinka from Reitlinger, and my discussion with
Danny Keren in this thread. I will bring in more evidence later. My point was
simply to say that what others include among the dead in the camps, I include
among the dead on the trains to the camps. If one uses such a method, my
figures would not be at all different from those of the Institut fuer
Zeitgeschichte, etc. I would like to thank you for sending the text of this
message to my mailbox before it appeared as a posting. I have also noticed
that lately (today) you have been less nasty toward me.

> [snip]
>
> Mark
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line seperating good and evil
passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political
parties--but right through every human heart--and all human hearts."
>
> -- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>


--
George Popovici

Silence is an answer, but not the answer.
(George Popovici, ancestor of the poster,

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com Thu Jul 30 18:40:01 EDT 1998
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From: gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.magyar,soc.culture.romanian,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.israel
Subject: Re: (2) Re: Holocaust in Hungary (I): (...)
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In article ,
  mvanalst@!spam!home.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
> In article <6pdcpg$se4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com
wrote:
>
> > In article ,
> >   mvanalst@!spam!home.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
> > > In article <6pas9t$nqq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > In article ,
> > > >   mvanalst@!spam!home.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
> > > > > In article <6p869d$hjt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com
> > > > wrote:
> > >
> > > [snip]
> > >
> > > > > There is certainly _German_ documentation concerning this: Luther via
> > > > > Weizsäcker to Ribbontrop, February 11, 1942, NG-4817.
> > > >
> > > > What volume, and what edition of the full text of the trials ?
> > >
> > > You have the Masters in history, Poopy. Show the research skills you were
> > > taught.
> >
> > My answer is: 1. Then why do you ask me for citations ?
>
> To see if you can substantiate your claims, Poopy.
>
> 2. Sometimes I am lazy.
>
> Too bad.

That's true.

>
> > 3. No Holocaust historian specializing in Romania, neither Radu Ioanid, nor
> > Jean Ancel, nor Julius Fisher, nor Th. Lavi, nor Lya Benjamin, nor anybody
> > else, has used the above mentioned document, or talked about the 10,000 Jews
> > sent over the Bug and back again.
>
> Gee, sounds like a small oversight on their part.

I do not share your opinion.


>
> > Rabbi Fisher in fact even criticized
> > Reitlinger for being wrong in using it.
>
> Why?

Read the sources mentioned by me in this and other postings.

>
> > > By the same token, Poopy, one does not have to believe everything that
> > > apologists for mass murder say, either.
> > >
> >
> > Is he implying that I am an "apologist for mass murder" ?
>
> Aren't you? I mean, you claim there were no extermination camps in
> Romania, that the mass murders carried out at these extermination camps
> were because of typhus? And you wonder why you migfht be percieved as an
> apologist for Romanian mass murder?

If van Alstine chooses to think that, and to disregard the sources mentioned
by me, then he is entitled to believe what he wants. The U.S. is a free
country, and people are allowed to have erroneous beliefs.


>
> > Is he conceding that I am right on the issue of the 10,000.
>
> Not in the least.

Thank you for the clarification of your position.


>
> > I am not going to prove that I am right.
>
> Because you cannot prove that you are right.

I have only a few more days of vacation, and I am not going to answer every
comment.


>
> > If van Alstine wants to make a fool
> > of himself, then let him believe in what Hilberg wrote on this issue, and in
> > his German documents. He should consult the article by Jean Ancel in Yad
> > Vashem Studies, in 1993, and all the other sources, whether ever quoted by
> > title by me, in whatever context, or not, at the right page. These sources
do
> > not talk about this kind of transfer...
>
> Poopy, citing Ancel not citing NG-4817 is not proof that 10,000 Romanian
> Jews were nor expelled across the Bug River.
>
> > ...imply that the Germans did not want any Jew to cross the Bug to the
> > German-occuppied Ukraine, and sometimes talk about the fact that the
> Romanians
> > wanted to transfer the Jews held at Bogdanovka, Domanovka and Akhmetchtka to
> > the the east of the Bug. The Germans refused, the Jews were held there,
> nobody
> > wanted them, or knew what to do with them, epidemics started, and they got
> > sick, and were finally killed.
>
> IOW, The Romanians exterminated Jews in camps at Bogdanovka, Domanovka and
> Akhmetchtka. Seems pretty fair, then, to say for example, that Bogdanovka
> was a Romanian extermination camp.
>
> [snip]
>
> > > Who forced the Jews into these pig sties, Poopy?
> >
> > Modest Isopescu and his subordinates.
>
> Romanian officals, yes?
>
> >  Who kept them in filth
> > > and privation while they starved?
> >
> > Modest Isopescu and his subordinates.
>
> Romanian officals, yes?
>
> >  Who pulled the triggers and killed them,
> > > Poopy?
> >
> > Ditto.
>
> Romanian officals, yes?

Yes.

>
> > > Romanians. That who. What do you call a place where such things are if not
> > > a Romanian extermination camp?
> > >
> >
> > They were extermination sites or camps.
>
> But previously you denied that Romania had extermination camps! Are you
> now saying otherwise?

I never denied it.

> [snip]
>
> > > > > Then what do you call Bogdanovka? What do you call a camp where some
> > > > > 48,000 Jews were forced to strip naked in sub-zero weather and were
then
> > > > > shot to death?
> > > >
> > > > If the camp would have been "built" and "operated", then there would not
> > have
> > > > been any need for such "artisanal" methods.
> > >
> > > Oh, you think forcing the victims to strip naked in sub-zero weather and
> > > stand around for hours before killing them requires an artiste, eh, Poopy?
> > >
> >
> > The gas chambers and crematoria represented industrial-scale mass killing,
> > shooting is "artisanal". I have no idea what the reference to "artiste"
means.
>
> Here's a clue:
>
> artisan n. a person skilled in an applied art; a craftperson... -artisanal,
adj.
>
> -Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language_.
>
> I leave looking up the definition of "artiste" as an excercise for Poopy.
>
> [snip]
>
> > > > > Are you saying that the shooting 48,000 people was because of typhus
> > > > > outbreaks?
> > > >
> > > > Prove that it was not.
> > >
> > > Your claim, your burden of proof, Poopy.
> > >
> >
> > There are many such sources. The materials related to the trial of Modest
> > Isopescu in Jean Ancel (ed.), Documents Concerning the Fate of Romanian
Jewry
> > during the Holocaust, vol. 5 and 6, published by the Klarsfeld Foundation,
> > Jerusalem and New York, 1986, are highly recommended reading. At any rate,
> > the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust (fully cited by me elsewhere), vol. 1, p.
> > 226, says, "Several cases of typhus broke out in the camp in mid-December
> > [1941]. In consultation with Fleischer, the German adviser to the Romanian
> > administration of the district, Isopescu decided to kill the entire camp
> > population and issued an order to this effect to Vasile Manescu, the
military
> > government official in charge of the district.
>
> Several cases typhus break out and the Romanians run off and shoot 48,000
> people? Don't you see the absurdity of trying to defend such an atrocity
> by blaming it on typhus? Typhus is _preventable_. Easily preventable. It
> has a low mortality rate among healthy people. Yet the Romanians, instead
> of treating the causes of typhus, shoot 48,000 Jews because of a few cases
> of typhus.

OK, and I never argued otherwise.

> [snip]
>
> > > > Is scholarly minimization the same thing as white-washing ?
> > >
> > >  Is "scholarly minimization" the same as crasppy research and a flawed
> > > assumptions?
> > >
> >
> > Since Mayer is a crappy researcher and makes flawed assumptions according to
> > van Alstine, I am not surprised that he implies that I am in this category.
> > We should assume that my critic is God's gift to Holocaust research.
>
> No, we may assume you're such a crappy "historian" that an amature such as
> myself can tear your apologia to shreds.
>
> > > > And are you not a defender of Clinton ?
> > >
> > > Clinton who?
> > >
> >
> > Sophistry. President Clinton.
>
> And how, praytell, am I defending him?
>
> > > They were called "depot Jews," and were kept in the "Mexico" camp at
> > > Birkenau. And if you claim they were all shipped to Germany in _addition_
> > > to currently excepted totals all you need to do is supply the transport
> > > records and reconcile them with the
> > > >
> >
> > Available documentation ?
>
> That's _your_ job, not mine, Poopy. You have to go find the transport
> records and explain how they support your claims.
>
> > > > > On the other hand, one can
> > > > > read the daily entries in Czech's _Auschwitz Chronicle_ for the perod
of
> > > > > Aktion Höss and see that the vast majority of Hungarian Jews _not_
"fit
> > > > > for work" were killed in the gas chambers.
> > > >
> > > > There are entries for only some of the transports.
> > >
> > > That's correct. However, my point was that the numerous entries offer a
> > > representative _sampling_ indicating the high percentage of deportees from
> > > the transport were sent to the gas chambers.
> >
> > This is a reasonable assumption. This does not indicate my agreement with
it.
>
> Heaven forbid!
>
The readers should look at what Van Alstine snips, and judge for themselves
what that means.
> [snip]
>
> > > Yes. Well enough to detect _your_ distortions of it.
> > >
> >
> > First of all, if I used Mayer in a way which might have been somewhat
> > inappropriate,
>
> Yes. Very innapropriate.
>
> > it was not by design,
>
> Poopy, if you would have said this at the very first I would have believed
> you and accepted your explination. End of story. But not now. Not after
> you fanactically tried to defend your distortions, grasping at every straw
> possible, making further distortions and lies until, finally, you are
> _now_ boxed in and forced to make a sleezy, half-assed concession to the
> fact that you very inappropriate misrepresented Mayer.

You are claiming that I am dishonest. You are also free to believe that the
earth is flat.

>
> > but because I had read the book a long
> > time ago, and because I take poor notes when I do not have to take good
> > notes. Finally, I do not own the book. I just made a few photocopies from
it.
>
> Excuses not accepted. Especially from an alleged "historian" who should
> have known better.

Are you implying that my M.A. diploma is a fake ?


>
> 
>
> [snip]
>
> Mark
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line seperating good and evil
passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political
parties--but right through every human heart--and all human hearts."
>
> -- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>


--
George Popovici


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From gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com Thu Jul 30 18:40:01 EDT 1998
Article: 194569 of alt.revisionism
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From: gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Schindler's List
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 18:22:13 GMT
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In article <1998072623275900.TAA13790@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
  chuckf2323@aol.com (ChuckF2323) wrote:
> < From: Chuck Ferree 
> Date: Sat, Jul 25, 1998 4:42 PM
> Message-id: <35BA0B07.572919F1@rio.com>
>
> Harper wrote:
>
> > Who believes the schindler's list is biased??

On the most interesting issues, I found the movie remarkably accurate.


> > I believe it is glorified and biased
>
> CF:>>>>>I disagree 100%
> Tell us exactly what in the film was glorified and
> biased. Try to be fair, and perhaps we can discuss
> the film and our opinions.
>
> CF:>>>>>Eight responses, no proof offered just opinions. The deniers, will not
> debate, because they are afraid of losing.
> I have met members of Schindler's List, and also the author of the book, a
> novel, based on historical fact, just as the film was a film based on
> historical fact. The camp commandant was real and he was hanged for his
crimes.
>
> Chuck Ferree
>
> Chuck Ferree
>
> Chuck Ferree
>
> >>
>
> Please visit these web sites:
>
> http://remember.org/index.html
>
> http://www2.3dresearch.com/~june/Vincent/Camps/CampsEngl.html
>
>


--
George Popovici

Silence is an answer, but not the answer.
(George Popovici, ancestor of the poster,

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From gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com Thu Jul 30 18:40:02 EDT 1998
Article: 194615 of alt.revisionism
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From: gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.magyar,soc.culture.romanian,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.israel
Subject: Re: (2) Re: Holocaust in Hungary (I): (...)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 20:24:33 GMT
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In article <6pfqbi$dmh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
  gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article ,
>   mvanalst@!spam!home.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
> > In article <6pap43$ka8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com
> wrote:
> >
> > > In article ,
> > >   mvanalst@!spam!home.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
> > > > In article <6p869d$hjt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > In article ,
> > > > >   mvanalst@!spam!home.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
> > > > > > In article <6p5gc8$fdi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com
> > > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > [Popovici's whining snipped]
> > >
> > > Thank you for answering my post. Was "whining" the only thing that I did.
> >
> > No, you also told a few whoppers. Tsk tsk.
>
> Kenneth McVay told me not answer back Mark's insults. "Keep your cool with
> Mark - don't return the insults, just ignore them. Hang in there."
>
> > [snip]
> >
> > > > > > > > According to Hilberg:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > In Bucharest, Vice Premier Mihai Antonescu called Govenor
> > > > > > > > Alexianu to report on the matter [of Romanian deportations
> > > > > > > > across the Bug River]. By that time the crisis was begining
> > > > > > > > to pass The _Generalkommissar_ in Nikolaev reported that the
> > > > > > > > movement of Jews across the border had stopped. [10,000 had
> > > > > > > > been pushed across in February, 1942.]
> > > > >
> > > > > There is no evidence in Romanian documents concerning this.
> > > >
> > > > There is certainly _German_ documentation concerning this: Luther via
> > > > Weizsäcker to Ribbontrop, February 11, 1942, NG-4817.
> > >
> > > I have read about that in Hilberg and other sources.
> >
> > Then why did you ignore Hilberg and other sources that cite German
> > documentation concerning the Romanians deporting 10,000 Jews acroos the
> > Bug? That's pretty fairly dishonest of you, Poopy.
> >
> > What did you say you got your M.A. in, Poopy? Propaganda?
>
> European History. Ken wrote to me yesterday, "George, alt. revisionism is
> often a very childish and unpleasant place. If you present your case calmsly
> and politely, no matter how you might be provoked, folks eventually notice."
>
> > [snip]
> >
> > > > > > > > Those who were already across were shipped back to the
> Transnistrian
> > > > > > > > port of Odessa.
> > >
> > > Julius Fisher, TRANSNISTRIA, THE FORGOTTEN CEMETERY, 1969, argues,
> correctly,
> > > I might add, that no Jews were sent back to Odessa.
> >
> > What are his specifics, Poopy? What are his sources?
> >
>
>   Julius S. Fisher, TRANSNISTRIA: THE FORGOTTEN CEMETERY, (South Brunswick:
> Thomas Yoseloff, 1969), p. 149 and passim gives Romanian language sources,
> such as Matatias Carp, Cartea Neagra: Fapte si Documente, Suferintele
> Evreilor din Romania, 1940-44, vol. 3, Transnistria, Bucharest, 1947. I think
> that part of the text has already been posted on the web by Michael
> Zacharias. He also cites works such as Procesul Marii Tradari nationoanle:
> Stenograma Desbaterilor dela Tribunalul Poprului asupra Guvernului Antonescu,
> (Bucharest, 1946).
>
> > [snip]
> >
> > > > "At the beginning of February, 1942, the Ministry for Eastern Occupied
> > > > Territories informed the German Foreign Office that the Roumanians had
> > > > sudenly deported 10,000 Jews across the Bug in Vosnesenk area and that
> > > > another 60,000 were expected to follow." (Cf. Hilberg, _Destruction_,
> > > > p.497; ref. NG-4817 .)
> > >
> > > The Germans were not up to date.
> >
> > Prove it, Poopy.
>
> See my citations of Ancel's works, etc., in another posting, and my fairly
> detailed commentary.
>
> > > The 60,000 might have been exactly those
> > > killed at Domanevka, Akhmetchetka, and especially Bogdanovka.
> >
> > "Might have been," Poopy? Care to offer something more substantial that
> > "might have been?" Poopy, if you can say "might have been" I think I'll
> > say "probably not."
> >
> > > > Cleary, according to Luther's report, 10,000 Jews _were_ deported across
> > > > the Bug. This did not sit well with the Nazis, however, as the
> > > > Einsatzgruppen had its hands full with mobile killing operations on
their
> > > > side of the Bug in the Ukraine. Eichmann wrote the Foreign Office that
the
> > > > Romanian deportation, though "approved in principle," was unwanted at
the
> > > > time as it was "planless and premature." The Nazis subsequently deported
> > > > these 10,000 Jews, who were origionally deported by the Romanians across
> > > > the Bug, to Odessa in Transnistria. (Cf. Hilberg, _Destruction_, p.497.)
> > > >
> > > > In short, 10,000 Romanian Jews _were_ deported across the Bug River. The
> > > > Nazis, too busy killing Ukranians, deported them back.
> > >
> > > You mean to say Ukrainian Jews from east of the Bug.
>
> You should have said "inhabitants of the Ukraine".
>
> > They all lived in the Ukraine, Poopy. Besides, the Nazi killed non-Jews in
> > the Ukraine as well as Jews.
>
> Just not so many.
>
>  Just not quite so many.
>
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > > > Moreover this does not address the
> > > > German Foreign Office reporting on May 16, 1942, that "about 28,000 Jews
> > > > were taken to German villiges Transnistria" where they were subsequently
> > > > liquidated. (Cf. Hilberg, _Destruction_, pp.496,497; ref. Note by
Triska,
> > > > May 16, 1942, NG-4817.)
> > >
> > > They were liquidated by the Germans, including the local Volksdeutsche, as
> > > the Romanian documents show.
> >
> > Cite them. Moreover, are you saying, Poopy, that the Nazis administrated
> > villages and territory in Transnistria?
>
> The document which talked about the 32,600 figure, already cited in a
> previous posting, is one of them. The (local, Volksdeutsche) Germans did
> administer some villages in Transnistria, the ones which happened to be
> inhabited by Germans, were administer by them. See Steigman's work cited in a
> previous posting, passim. I do not have most of the documents with me, but I
> cans cite, for example, Fisher, p. 123-125, and passim. The documents are in
> Cartea Neagra, p. 202-206, 226-227, and passim. I have seen the documents,
> and, if I am challenged, I will look for them through all the bags in my
> closet, and I will cite them. There are many sources which support my views
> on this issue, and nobody challenges them.
>
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > > > > > > > Actually, Romania was the only country in WWII besides Nazi
> Germany
> > > > > > > > to build and operate (albeit small) _extermination_ camps (sans
> gas
> > > > > > > > chambers):- meaning without gas chambers.
> > > > >
> > > > > Romania did not "build" or "operate" extermination camps.
> > > >
> > > > Then what do you call Bogdanovka? What do you call a camp where some
> > > > 48,000 Jews were forced to strip naked in sub-zero weather and were then
> > > > shot to death? A health spa? And _you_ whine about people being
dishonest?
> > > > Pathetic.
> > >
> > > I did not deny that the killings occurred, as one can see in what I wrote
in
> > > my posting.
> >
> > Poopy, what do you call a camp where tens of thousands of people were mass
> > murdered at? The Boy Scouts' Jamboree?
>
> No, and you know that I would not do that. And what is a "Jamboree", anyway ?
>
> >
> > > > > Some concentration camps became extermination sites because of
outbreaks
> > > > > of typhus.
> > > >
> > > > Are you saying that the shooting 48,000 people was because of typhus
> > > > outbreaks? What was this supposed to be preventative "health" measures?
> > > > And _you_ whine about people being dishonest? Pathetic.
> > > >
> > >
> > >  That was Isopescu's thinking.
> >
> > Really? I dodn't see any citation. You presented it as _your_ "thinking."
> > Now, when it turns out to be piss-poor "thinking" you pass the buck and
> > say you rippe-off Isopescu's "thinking?"
>
> See my other posts, where I cited sources (articles by Jean Ancel, etc.)
>
> >
> > Keep diggin' that hole you're in deeper, Poopy.
> >
> > > I do not call him a humanitarian, but a murderer.
> >
> > ...And deeper.
>
> >
> > > > > Slightly more than 68,000 Jews were executed at Bogdanovka, Domanevka
> and
> > > > > Akhmetchetka in the period from December 1941 until February 1942
> > > > > according to the testimony of the prefect of the county in which the
> > camps
> > > > > were located (Golta). He had ordered the massacres, not Marshal
> Antonescu.
> > > >
> > > > First you say "some concentration camps became extermination sites
because
> > > > of outbreaks of typhus," (as if _that_ is an excuse!)
> > >
> > > It was not an excuse, but a cause.
> >
> > Since when did treating or preventing typhus entail having people strip
> > naked in sub-zero weather and shot, Poopy?
>
> Read carefully what I have written before making such "arguments".
>
> >
> > > The Romanians would have liked to ship them
> > > over the Bug, but the Germans did not want them. Many Jews got sick, and
> > > Isopescu did not want the Romanian army, the local people, etc., to get
> sick,
> > > and killed the Jews.
> >
> > So he exterminated them. In camps. After he put them there in the first
> > place. Like the Nazis did.
>
> Yes, he did.
>
> >
> > >  then you say
> > > > "slightly more than 68,000 Jews were executed at Bogdanovka, Domanevka
and
> > > > Akhmetchetka..." Do you not see the contradiction of your words?
> > >
> > > No, and your techniques should be described as sophistic, good for a
debate,
> > > but not for scholarship.
> >
> > Unfortunately for you, Poopy your "techniques" are neither good for debate
> > or scholarship.
>
> Kenneth McVay wrote to me yesterday, "George, I've started to archive your
> poste here [I did not ask for that, he volunteered], as I think some of the
> data is of value.
>
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > > > And are you seriously suggesting that this somehow excuses the Romanians
> > > > exterminating- by _your_ account -some 68,000 Jews at "Bogdanovka,
> > > > Domanevka and  Akhmetchetka in the period from December 1941 until
> > > > February 1942?"  And _you_ whine about people being dishonest? Pathetic.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Over 68,000. And it does not. However, your beloved Hilberg does define
the
> > > use of the Star of David as one of the steps in the killing process, if I
> > > recall correctly.
> >
> > Non sequitur, Poopy.
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > > OK, so perhaps the number was 70,000, of which over 68,000 were executed.
> The
> > > rest might have died of typhus.
> >
> > There's that "might have" again, Poopy. You're grasping at straws.
> >
> This comment of yours is non-consequential.
>
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Source: Hilberg, _The Destruction of the European Jews_,
> pp.485,496.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >       As I have noted in the text, the Hungarian authorities
> sent
> > > > > > > > > 437,402 Jews to Auschwitz, or 434,000, or 426,000, if one uses
> > > sources
> > > > > > > > > which are more pro-Hungarian. Professor Arno Mayer of
> > Princeton, who
> > > > > > > > > is of Luxembourg Jewish origin, argues that only 300-400,000
> > > Hungarian
> > > > > > > > > Jews were shipped to Auschwitz, and informs us that 'On May 11
> > > Himmler
> > > > > > > > > notified Pohl that Hitler had ordered 10,000 officers and
> > men of the
> > > > > > > > > Waffen-SS to be detached "to guard the 200,000 Jews
> > ...[about] to be
> > > > > > > > > transferred to the Reich's concentration [i.e.,
> non-extermination]
> > > > > > > > > camps for assignment to large construction projects of the
Todt
> > > > > > > > > Organization or to other essential war work."' (Arno Mayer,
> > Why Did
> > > > > > > > > The Heavens Not Darken: The "Final Solution" in History, New
> York:
> > > > > > > > > Pantheon Books, 1988, p. 375).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > This is a misrepresentation of Mayer's text.
> > > > >
> > > > > Where did I say that I agree with Mayer ?
> > > >
> > > > I claimed you _distorted_ Mayer. Why? Evidently so that you could say
that
> > > > Mayer supported your hypocrisy.
> > >
> > > No, I believe that 437,402, not 300-400,000 Jews, were shipped to
Auschwitz.
> >
> > "Might have been," "I believe." Gee, Poopy you just brimming over with
> > these wishy-wasy hedging. Unsupported "maybes" and "I believe" just aren't
> > acceptable, Poopy.
>
> You yourself cited sources for the 437,402 figure. I have always accepted
> them as valuable. The Deak source cited by me previously said 434,000. I
> believe your sources. I accept it as fact, and I have accepted it all along,
> even before you entered this discussion (see the posting to which you
> originally responded to). Other people believe differently, and I am not
> going to cite them, because I accept the 437,402 figure, and if I will cite
> them, you will claim that I agree with them. I know you well enough by now to
> predict your techniques.
>
> >
> > > > > What nefarious purposes would I have to do that ?
> > > >
> > > > White-washing mass murder?
> > >
> > > I am a Romanian.
> >
> > So? The Romanian government exterminated Jews. Romanians committed mass
> murder.
>
> The Romanian authorities did indeed exterminate Jews, as both I and you have
> shown.
>
> >
> > > Why would I whitewash the Germans and the Hungarians.
> >
> > So it would rub off on Romanians while the paint was wet?
> >
>
> My aim is to improve the relations between Romanians, Germans and Hungarians,
> which are not bad (they are rather good between Romanians and Germans). If
> you want to develop a more convincing theory, you should argue that I want to
> "kiss up" to them or something like that.
>
> > > > > When Braham was criticized in H-Diplo, nobody
> > > > > answered by praising him.
> > > >
> > > > So? This is supposed to prove something?
> > > >
> > >
> > > OK, so maybe it proves that among the 1,200 people on H-Diplo, some of
whom
> > > are Holocaust scholars (see their postings), none of them defended Braham.
> >
> > There's that "maybe" again, Poopy. How about _maybe_ it proves _nothing_.
> > Except, of course, that you are claiming to prove a negative -i.e. no
> > replies from Holocaust scholars proves in support of Braham proves that
> > Holocaust scholars disagree with Braham.
> >
> > > Perhaps they were busy or something. Mea Culpa.
> >
> > Perhaps such was beneath them to respond to.
> >
>
> The person who commented was an academic who happened to be a Holocaust
> survivor. Moreover, the criticism was polite and brief. If the comment would
> have been beneath them to respond to, then the moderator and the editor would
> not have posted the (fully cited) commentary. Both the moderator and the
> editor have Ph.D.'s in history.
>
> > > > > > > > Of the approximately 438,000 Hungarian Jews deported to
Auschwitz
> > > > > > > > from May 15 to July 9, 1944, about 10 percent were determined
> > to be fit for
> > > > > > > > labor
> > > > >
> > > > > Fit for labor in Auschwitz. Others were deported to camps in Germany.
> > > >
> > > > And your proof of this is? Why none of course. On the other hand, one
can
> > > > read the daily entries in Czech's _Auschwitz Chronicle_ for the perod of
> > > > Aktion Höss and see that the vast majority of Hungarian Jews _not_ "fit
> > > > for work" were killed in the gas chambers.
> > >
> > > The "vast majority", not all.
> >
> > So still don't get it, Poopy. Only about 40,000 out of about 437,000
> > Hungarian Jews survived the selection process at Auschwitz. The rest were
> > killed in the gas chambers. If you are claiming these 397,000 people (or
> > some significant fraction thereof) killed in the gas chambers were
> > "deported to camps in Germany" I hope you have some very solid evidence
> > for this.
> >
> > Not even all of the 40,000 "fit for work" survived. Even so, this 40,000
> > does not approach the number yo claim Hitler orderd deported and used for
> > labor.
> >
>

I will add a few details to what I have already posted. The details are purely
cosmetic (publisher, article title, page, etc.), as one can see by looking at
the thread.

> Randolph Braham says, in the article "The Inmates" in YISRAEL GUTMAN AND
> MICHAEL BERENBAUM, ANATOMY OF THE AUSCHWITZ DEATH CAMP (Bloomington: Indiana
> University Press, 1994), p. 466, talks about "about 10%). You are taking him
> too literally. Besides, like most people, he has not been fully consistent
> over time, including in the area of statistics. Perhaps the proportion was
> 14.5% in his opinion (he is not very specific). Of course, I am saying this
> because I hope to reach a common ground with you (i.e., my maximum estimate
> could become your minimum estimate of survivors). I am going to give you the
> figures for my maximum estimates. I believe that the number was probably
> lower. I remember, from the article on Hungary in a Germany language-book
> edited by Wolfgang Benz, Die Dimensions des Volkermords: Die Zahl der
judischen Opfer des nationalsozialismus (Munchen, R. Oldenbourg Verlag, 1991),
that 508,861 Jews were deported to Germany
> (including those deported after the summer of 1944) (see p. 351). About
121,500 returned, and
> allegedly only 5,000 stayed in the West (ibid.). The author of the article
"Ungarn", Laszlo
> Varga if I remember correctly, gave the number of Hungarian Jews dead in the
> Holocaust as 550,000. So did Wolfgang Benz, in the article with the same name
as the volume within the volume, p. 17. The minimum number of the dead (the
maximum number was
> 569,000) mentioned in the previously cited Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, (in
> this case, vol. 4, p. 1800), I hope that you will not attack him as a source.
> The number of Jews who died while deported to Greater Germany, including
> Auschwitz, according to the article in the Benz book was 382,500 (p. 351).
Some of the dead were of course deported by foot, etc., after October
> 15, 1944, etc. In his work, Randolph L. Braham, THE HUNGARIAN lABOR sERVICE
> SYSTEM, 1939-1945 (Boulder: East European Quarterly, 1977), p. 120, Braham
> argues that 116,500 returned from the deportations to Germany up to the end
> of 1945 (some returned later). Since he argued in 1977 that 569,507 Jews died
during
> the Holocaust, and you, and him, now believe that the number was 564,500,
let's
> say that that 121,500 was the total number of Jews who returned to Hungary,
> and 126,500 the total number of survivors, which is roughly equal to the
> figure cited by Deak for the number of survivors among the 434,000 (actually
> 437,402) Jews deported to Auschwitz. Deak was perhaps wrong in the sense that
> the 120,000 or so survivors were not exclusively those who had passed through
> Auschwitz, or who stayed there. And even so, there is no way that 400,000 or
> more Hungarian Jews were gassed at Auschwitz, as you claimed. Moreover, the
> number of Jews who survived the Holocaust in Hungary within its 1941-1944
> borders was not 200,000, as you claimed, but around 300,000 according to the
> Benz book (293,000, on p. 351, plus an unknown number of the 16-17,000 who
left Hungary before March 19, 1944, as one can see on p. 340), 255-265,000
according to the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, p.
> 1801., etc. Many of those who left Hungary before March 19, 1944 immigrated to

Palestine through Romania. According to the Note of the Ministry of Internal
Affairs of Romanian, the General Directon of the Police, The Direction of the
the Security Police, the Nationalities Secion no. 780-S from May 6, 1946
toward the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Romania, by that time, 19,764 Jews
>from  Northern Transylvania had returned home (some returned later), while
107,613 had not returned home. See Ion Calafeteanu et al. (ed.), EMIGRAREA
POPULATIEI EVREIESTI DIN ROMANIA IN ANII 1940-1944, (Bucuresti: Silex, 1993),
p. 244-245. Since the Romanian government has the names of the returnees in
the archives, there is no way to say that 90% of those deported were gassed.
Since some returnees were not necessarily registered with the authorities,
the number of returnees even in May 1946 was probably larger than 19,764. The
documents of the Romanian government are fully consistent with the fact that
only "250,000 to 300,000 were gassed or shot in this record season of the
death factory and all in the space of 46 days." (Gerald Reitlinger, The Final
Solution, (New York: A.S. Barnes & Company, 1961), p. 429. See the sources
cited in other postings of mine in this listing, as well as Bela Vago,
"Political and Diplomatic Activities for the Rescue of the Jews of Northern
Transylvania (June 1944-February 1945)", in Yad Vashem Studies, vol. 6, 1967,
p. 155-173. There is also another issue on which van Alstine, Braham and all
the others are mistaken. The number of people who were not of the Jewish
faith, but were classified as Jewish is often cited as 100,000 in sources
such as Braham, The Hungarian Labor Service, p.120. However, this figure of
100,000 is an estimate by the Hungarian census office of the number of people
presumed to have some Jewish blood, not of those defined as Jewish by the
laws. Raul Hilberg tells us that the number was 62,000 (43,000 Catholics,
12,000 Calvinists, 3,000 Lutherans and 3,000 other Christians). An estimated
15,000 people with a Jewish granparent were not defined as Jews by the
Hungarian laws. On all of these issues, see Raul Hilberg, The Destruction of
the European Jews, (New York, London: Holmes & Meier, 1985, vol. 2), p. 802.
So, the Holocaust Exaggerationist school of Braham, van Alstine et al. has
exaggerated the number of the Jews, and therefore of the dead Jews, by 38,000
Jews which existed only in their imagination. About 47,500 Christian Jews
survived the Holocaust and lived in Budapest at the end of 1945. Some lived
elsewhere. See Braham, The Hungarian Labor Service, p. 120. An important
issue related to the number of Jews who survived the Holocaust is the number
of Jews who immigrated to Hungary between the 1941 Hungarian census and March
19, 1944. Varga, p. 340, estimates their number at 50,000. Other people have
other estimates, which undoubtedly influence the number of the Jews who are
alleged to have died. At any rate, as my explanations show, not more than
512,000 Hungarian Jews died during the Holocaust. I have already cited, in a
previous posting, a source which puts the number at 450,000.






> > > >
> > > > So you _are_ agreeing with Mayer. It seems you like to change your spots
> > > > when it suits your purposes. Too bad you don't seem to comprehend
Mayer's
> > > > writing. (Too bad Mayber doesn't cite his sources too.)
> > >
> > > I agree that it's too bad that he does not cite his sources.
> >
> > Evasion noted, Poopy.
> >
> > So why do you cite him if he doesn't provide sources?
>
> Because other sources support him, and because the lack of citation does not
> prove that a statement is of poor quality. Some things are generally known,
> and some things are logical.
>
> >
> > > > He writes that "between 100,000 and 200,000 were to be selected to
> > > > excavate and build the bunkers for the production of military aircraft."
> > > > Not _were_ selected, but were to _be_ selected. Not the same thing at
all.
> > > > Of course, if you claim otherwise- and wish to be taken seriously -all
> > > > you  need do is produce the transport records that show that "between
> > > > 100,000 and 200,000" were sent _from_ Auschwitz between mid-May to
> > > > late-July of 1944, to concentrationcamps in Germany. Mayer certainly
> > > > doesn't.
> > > >
> > > Some were sent later, and the number was something like 100,000, as
> Goldhagen
> > > says, if I remember correctly.
> >
> > Citation?
> >
>
> Daniel Jonah Goldhagen, Hitler's Willing Executioners (New York, 1996),
> passim. The book has been borrowed from the library from someone else, and I
> can not cite the page right now. I have bought tens of Holocaust books, but
> not this one. If I can buy it for 25 cents within a few years, that would be
> good enough for me.
>
> > I repeat, "if you claim otherwise- and wish to be taken seriously -all
> > you  need do is produce the transport records that show that "between
> > 100,000 and 200,000" were sent _from_ Auschwitz between mid-May to
> > late-July of 1944, to concentrationcamps in Germany." Given that only
> > 40,000 or so Hungarian Jews survived "selection," I don't think it's
> > likely that 100,000 to 200,000 Hungarian Jews were tranported _from_
> > Auschwitz.
>
> I think that 100,000 were shipped to Germany. Moreover, Hoss gave a rounded
> figure of 400,000 Jews who were immediately gassed. Numbers like 360,000 or so
> would round up to 400,000 also.
>
> > [snip]
> >
> > > > After flip-flopping like a gaffed fish, you just agreed with Mayer that
> > > > "much more than 10% were not sent immediately to the gas chamber."
> > >
> > > Some were sent to Germany.
> >
> > Numbers? Citations? Transport records?
> >




> > > >


> > > >
> > > > [snip]
> > > >
> > > > > > > > Not that all of these 44,000 Hungarian Jews actually made it
> > to a Nazi
> > > > > > > > concentration camp. Or survived if they did.
> > > > >
> > > > > About 44,000 Jews deported from Northern Transylvania by the
> > Hungarians and
> > > > > Germans returned after the war according to the book by Manuila and
> > > Filderman
> > > > > mentioned by Mircea.
> > > >
> > > > And were these 44,000 Jews deported to Auschwitz? Or were they among
those
> > > > "death marched" away after deportations to Auschwitz stopped?

Only very few, those who had moved to Budapest, or were in the Hungarian labor
service. Only the six companies from Bor, with 6,100 Jews, certainly included
Northern Transylvanian Jews. See Braham, The Hungarian Labor Service, p.
55, 115-160 and passim on the deportees to Bor.

> > > >
> > >
> > > See Sabin Manuila and Wilhelm Filderman, The Jewish Population in Romania
> > > duing World War II, (Iasi: The Romanian Cultural Foundation, 1994), p. 52
in
> > > Romanian, and p. 53 in English. Sabin Manuila was a great Romanian
> > > statistician, and Filderman was the leader of the Jews of Romania. "In
1930
> > > there were 138,917 Jews living there (the figure of 148,295 appears to
refer
> > > to those of Jewish faith). The Hungarian census of January 31, 1941, found
> > > 151,125 Jews living in that part... Those of Northern Transylvania were
> > > deported to Germany, by the Hungarian government, to forced labor camps,
> with
> > > the exception of 14,000. A total of 44,000 were returned to Romania, which
> > > were found in various camps there at the end of the war. Hence there were
> > > altogether 58,000 survivors". Many survivors were Hungarian Jews from
> outside
> > > Northern Transylvania.
> >
> > All of which fails to anwer my simple question: "And were these 44,000
> > Jews deported to Auschwitz? Or were they among those "death marched" away
> > after deportations to Auschwitz stopped? Try again.
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > > > According to Dinnerstein:
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > >
> > > > Between 1945 and 1953, the United States accepted about 400,000 Dps, of
> > > > whom perhaps 20 perrcent wer Jewish. (Exact figures are impossible to
> > > > obtain.) Great Britian admitted about 100,000 people, but figures are
not
> > > > available for the percentage of Jews. Some 136,000 Jewish DPs went to
> > > > Israel, but here again statistics are only estimates.
> > > >
> > >
> > >  The number for Israel probably applies only to DP's. It probably refers
> only
> > > to the Jews from the camps, and probably excludes groups such as the
> Romanian
> > > Jews who stayed at home during the entire war.
> >
> > "probably applies" "Probably refers?
> >
> > How about "probably not?"
>
> You are free to disagree with me. And I am free to believe that only 450,000
> Hungarian Jews probably died during the Holocaust. The number might have been
> somewhat higher, but I did cite some of the sources which lead me to my
> belief.
>

You should be honest enough to say that there was no way the number of the
dead could have been 564,500 or anything close to it, or at least that it
could have been lower. I have shown this, and  as I have shown this, and you
can't deny it. Even if one accepts the 512,000 figure mentioned by me as the
highest possible estimate, I have shown that the Holocaust Exaggerationist
school exaggerates the number of Jewish deaths in the Holocaust. Besides, why
does van Alstine cite Hilberg so often, the same Hilberg who says that only
5.1 million died in the Holocaust, but uses the numbers of the "6 million"
school ? It's called inconsistency.

> >

> >

> >
>
> --
> George Popovici
>
> Silence is an answer, but not the answer.
> (George Popovici, ancestor of the poster,
>
> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp   Create Your Own Free Member Forum
>


--
George Popovici

Silence is an answer, but not the answer.
(George Popovici, ancestor of the poster,

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com Thu Jul 30 18:40:02 EDT 1998
Article: 194637 of alt.revisionism
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From: gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Central Sauna
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 21:07:12 GMT
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In article ,
  dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
> gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com writes:
> # dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
> ## I believe it was. Let's take one of the larger gas chambers
> ## (in Krema II), which was 210 square meters in area. Assume
> ## 1,000 victims (certainly possible). In 300 gassing operations,
> ## that's 300,000 victims. Add to that Krema III (with a gas
> ## chamber of the same size), and Kremas IV and V, plus the
> ## so-called "Bunkers" I&II, and I believe it was possible.
>
> # You might be right. Of course, the installations were
> # sometimes out of use, and did sometimes break down.
>
> Hmm. The gas chambers never broke down; the cremation
> furnaces did, at times. That was probably one reason for
> open-air burning of the corpses.

You are probably generally correct. Some problems with the first gassing in
crematorium IV are noted in Jean Claude Pressac with Robert-Jan van Pelt,
"The Machinery of Mass Murder at Auschwitz", in Yisrael Gutman and Michael
Berenbaum (ed.), ANATOMY OF THE AUSCHWITZ DEATH CAMP, (Bloomington: Indiana
University Press, 1994), p. 234.

> You're also correct in saying that they were not always
> operational, but even then they could have been used to murder
> a million people.

OK, but what interests me more is how many were actually gassed rather than
how many could have been gassed, and how many died overall than how many
could have died overall.

> ## What is your estimate to how many could have been gassed, and
> ## how do you derive it?
>
> # I do not have a specific estimate, but I do not believe that
> # a million Jews were gassed. In my answer to van Alstine in this
> # thread, I mentioned Reitlinger's figures. I cited him in his
> # statement that perhaps 550-600,000 Jews were gassed on arrival.
>
> But this number is not supported by other historians, to the
> best of my knowledge.

Nor is Reitlinger's estimate to a total
> of 800,000 Jews dying in Auschwitz.
>
That might be true, and probably is.


> # The number might have been, and probably was, higher, but I
> # do not know by how much.
>
> Ok.
>
> [...]
>
> # then I will cite the easily accessible sources, and then I
> # will deal with the number who died in transit to the death
> # camps, to the extent to which I can. Unfortunately, there is
> # very little literature on this topic, and much of it
> # comes from testimonies.
>
> Correct; the SS had no reason to bother and list down these
> numbers. What did they care whether the people died on transit to
> Treblinka, or were murdered there?
>
> I suggest you consult Gilbert's "The Holocaust", and Arad's
> excellent book on the "Reinhard" camps. BTW, doesn't the
> former SS-man Suchomel, in the movie "Shoa", say something about
> a train with Jewish deportees to Treblinka, in which half were
> dead on arrival?

I will look at them in the future. I have just found a source which estimates
the number of deportees who died on the way at 30%, which was regarded by the
researchers of the Institute of Jewish Affairs as typical. It was allegedly a
Report by Obersturmfuehrer Hiegs to Himmler whose contents were already known
in the Western Allied countries in 1943. I do not know the details, or how
accurate the report was, but my source is Institute of Jewish Affairs of the
American Jewish Congress, HITLER'S WAR ON THE JEWS, (New York: August 1943),
p. 308 and passim. Many things which appear in this book are consistent with
what was intercepted by Venona, but are still classified. It is unfortunate
that much of what was know in 1943 has been "forgotten" or ignored in the
meantime for one reason or another, including the failure of the U.S.
government to declassify the documents. At any rate, you once posted an
article with data from the Die Institut fur Zeitgeschichte in which the
number of dead Jews at Auschwitz, Majdanek, Treblinka, Belzec, Chelmno, and
Sobibor added up to something like 2.65 million.  Hilberg believes that it
was up to 2.7 million. If the percentage who had died on the trains would
have been half or more, 1.5 million or less Jews would have died within the
six camps. Perhaps the Venona interceptions exaggerated the number of Jews
who died on the way (let's say that the number was 795,000, or 800,000, but
even if it was 600,000 or 900,000, the mechanism matters more than the
numbers), but the number was still considerable. What is strange is that, as
far as I know, more than a third of the literature concerning deaths on the
trains refers to the Iasi pogrom. Would I have any independent confirmation
for the 30% figure ? The women's hair from Belzec sent out of the come could
have come from 200,000 women (the exact quantity is known). About 550-600,000
Jews were sent to Belzec, and I believe that about one half had to be
females. The Gerstein Report for Belzec said that 1,450 out of 6,700 Jews who
had arrived by train were already dead. In any case, I am trying to figure
out the mechanism of the Holocaust more than the exact number of the dead.



> -Danny Keren.
>
>


--
George Popovici

Silence is an answer, but not the answer.
(George Popovici, ancestor of the poster,

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From gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com Thu Jul 30 18:40:03 EDT 1998
Article: 194650 of alt.revisionism
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From: gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.romanian,soc.culture.magyar,soc.culture.polish
Subject: Re: The Holocaust, Classified Documents and Venona
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 22:01:40 GMT
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In article <6pb0oi$tf9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
  gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <1998072415265800.LAA22582@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
>   ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa) wrote:
> > Here is a question to Mark Van Alstine regarding
> > "burning pits".
> >     Specifically, What is your belief as to the time
> > period(s) Pits were used at Birkenau?  What is
> > Orthodoxy Belief, if different?
> >     As I understand your position, you claim "pits"
> > were used from Sept. 1942 until November 1942
> > and then not until  May-July 1944.
> >  Is this a clear and correct stating of your belief?
> >
> >
>

I would like to correct, and partially footnote, my comments. Many other
things have been footnoted in other postings of mine in this and other
threads, and the readers of these NG's should simply read them if they want
the sources.

> It would appear that pits were used
> even more after July 1944 than in May-July 1944, and especially in August.
> Most Hungarian Jews sent to Auschwitz who died there, or at least a large
> minority of them, died in the pits. The gassing and cremation facilities were
> insufficient to kill all of them, and therefore the pits were necessary for
the purpose to which they were used. Some experiments, whose results are still
classified, or,
> should I say, suppressed, which were conducted by the U.S. government are
problably wrong, and/or were wrongly conducted. Even so, they
> indicate that in a test on monkeys who were subjected to gassing by Zyklon B
> within the technical specifications suggested by standard Holocaust
> scholarship as interpreted (poorly ?) by the scientists during the 1970's
(before Pressac's research), only
> about half died. The results were confiscated by one of the
> agencies of the U.S. government on some sort of technicality, probably cruelty

toward animals, as it happened to other experiments which had nothing to do
with HCN. I do believe

> that Holocaustological scholarship is right that there were gassings at
> Auschwitz, Treblinka, Majdanek, Sobibor, Belzec and Chelmno, but the details
> are wrong, partly because very many, sometimes most, Jews died in the trains
headed to those camps. No U.S. classified experiments with Diesel engines or
whatever were apparently conducted, at least as far as I know.
      Venona, a mechanism of the O.S.S. for intercepting radio
> transmissions seems to indicate that in the case of a number of (not
necessarily typical)
> transports of Jews who were sent to the Operation Reinhard camps, most
> deportees died on the way. The feasibility of such a scenario is suggested by
> the death trains associated with the so-called Iasi pogrom in Romania in
> June-July 1941, where most of the Jews who were being shipped away from Iasi
> died on the trains. The O.S.S. had obtained, largely through Turkey (I was

told, with an officer named Hall) many pictures of the "death trains" which
had left Iasi in late June 1941. Since the conditions of transportations were
similar in

> the case of the German transports, except, sometimes, for the summer heat, a
> similar scenario would not be unreasonable, and was assumed by some O.S.S.
people. Reitlinger does talk a little
> about occurrences where most Jews on the trains sent to Treblinka, etc.,
> died, as I have shown in previous postings, but the percentage of Jews sent to

the six above-mentioned camps who died on trains was probably about 30%.
Venona does seem to confirm, albeit indirectly, the existence

> of systematic mass murder at Auschwitz and the other camps (even though gas
> chambers are apparently not mentioned), the transmissions were interpreted, or
misinterpreted, so as to indicate that some
> trains were broken up. Perhaps the story is wrong, but some people who worked

for the U.S. government believed that it was right. Some wagons allegedly
went to Auschwitz, and some to the East.  When the transports arrived, many
of the Jews were shot allegedly immediately, others after a few days, and
some died because of bad conditions (sometimes there was a 30% rate of
mortality). I am not going to present my documents and sources because Mark
van Alstine has created a climate of intimidation and terror in
alt.revisionism, and he is going to ask me for more supporting documents, and
frankly because nobody has asked me very explicitly to post these specific
documents. I have been insulted so much, unfairly and disgustingly that I
will probably post my sources and documents if and only if, and when, van
Alstine is going to behave decently. When people are going to be open to the
truth, they will find out what really happened in the past. Until then, we
should only pray to God that their minds will be enlightened. Another
possibility is that I will post the documents if, and when, I would desire to
punish those connected with the U.S. government who cover things up/refuse to
declassify them. It is my informed opinion that there are some U.S.
classified documents which, if made public, would guarantee Romania's
invitation to join N.A.T.O. in 1999 (i.e., the decision to extend N.A.T.O.).
If Romania is not going to be invited to join N.A.T.O. in 1999, then I will
believe that a necessary precondition of the viability of such a
policy/political choice was the ability to hide certain documents from the
public, and I will make my documents and sources concerning the Holocaust
public. I know that they are going to be misused by the Holocaust Deniers to
imply that the number of Jews sent to the East who are commonly believed to
have died at Auschwitz was not perhaps 70,000, or 100,000, or 115,000, or
something like that, or even zero, but millions (who knows, perhaps two, or,
more probably, three, million, or whatever). I know that people like van
Alstine are going to criticize me by saying "Hilberg does not say anything
about any of these things", etc. There are some classified U.S. documents
which indicate that until the middle of the 1943, more than 600,000 Jews had
been shipped to ghettos and colonies in Eastern Europe. A large majority of
them were in fact sent to Auschwitz, with a minority to the other five
above-mentioned camps. For those who are curious about what mostly
misleading, but partly true, the classified documents and Venona would bring
us, I would suggest the reading of Institute of Jewish Affairs of the
American Jewish Congress, Hitler's Ten-Year War on the Jews, (New York,
1943). Almost all of "my" documents have already been published in the U.S.,
France, Germany and Romania, but have not been interpreted correctly.  The
evidence would suggest that the number of

> Jews who died in the six camps which seem to have had gas chambers, the
> number of Jews killed was smaller than it has been generally thought.
        The
> total number of Jews who died during the Holocaust is uncertain, but
> classified materials in the National Archives of the United States of America
> would put it in the range of 4-5 million. The latter figure should be seen as
> a minimum number. Out of these, according to the classified materials, which

could distort the reality, but nevertheless are valuable, only perhaps 2.5 to
3 million Jews or

> so died a violent death, as opposed to disease, starvation, bad conditions on

the trains, etc. I have arrived at the five million maximum figure because
some declassified documents

> dealing with the situation in Romania show numbers similar, or 20% lower,
> than Hilberg's. For example, Hilberg says that 45,000 Jews from Bessarabia and
Northern
> Bukovina died before the deportations to Transnistria, while the O.S.S.
> figures give a figure of 16,000 Northern Bukovinian plus 20,000 Bessarabian

Jews, which equals 36,000. See Radu Ioanid, "The Antonescu Era", in Randolph
Braham (ed.), THE TRAGEDY OF ROMANIAN JEWRY, (Boulder, Colorado: East
European Monographs, 1994), p. 146-147, 169, which cites Hilberg and American
Jewish Archives, Fond: World Jewish Congress, #15 (10A), Wartime Population
Changes in the Areas Incorporated into the Soviet Union, Summary and
Conclusions, p. 23-24.	If somebody

> is going to say that the upper limit of the number of dead Jews is 4.5
> million, I am not going to dispute him. At any rate, the arguments concerning
> the "uniqueness" of the Holocaust will be hurt by massive declassifications.
> I could, of course, go on and on. Most of the Jews who died in 1942-1945
> probably died from "natural" causes, just as Arno Mayer says.
         The issue is how do I know all of these things. The answer is from
people who have (U.S.)
> government connections. I hope that what I know will not be answered by a
> cascade of citations. The fact that other people with government connections
> have said that numbers such as these came from documents, while I credit
> Venona, does not mean very much: some people analyzed and interpreted, in
> writing, what was captured by Venona, and it only stands to reason that there
might be some documentary basis which corroborates the Venona intercepts.
>
> --
> George Popovici
>
> Silence is an answer, but not the answer.
>
> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp   Create Your Own Free Member Forum
>


--
George Popovici

Silence is an answer, but not the answer.

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp   Create Your Own Free Member Forum


From gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com Thu Jul 30 18:40:03 EDT 1998
Article: 194758 of alt.revisionism
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In article ,
  mvanalst@!spam!home.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
> In article <6p869d$hjt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com
wrote:
>
> > In article ,
> >   mvanalst@!spam!home.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
> > > In article <6p5gc8$fdi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com
> > wrote:
>
> [Popovici's whining snipped]

Thank you for answering my post. Was "whining" the only thing that I did.

>
> > > > > > Third of all, I am not sure what you mean by extermination
> > > > > > camps. If by that you mean camps in which the prisoners were
> > > > > > exterminated, then the Romanian authorities (primarily the prefect
of
> > > > > > Tulchin County in Transnistria, Constantin Loghin) sent more than
> > > > > > 4,000 Jews to the other side of the Bug. They were put to hard
labor,
> > > > > > and after that shot (except for those who died in the meantime, or
> > > > > > escaped).
> > > > >
> > > > > A bit bit more than 4,000 were killed. Try (at least) 28,000.
> >
> > These people were killed in Transnistria. I was referring to the people
> > deported east of the Bug River.
>
> The 10,000 deported across the Bug by Romania were among the 28,000
> deported to Odessa by the Germans and later killed. (See below.)
>

My source does not say that, nor is your number right (see below). There were
no transports from the east of the Bug to the west of the Bug. Some Jews got
to the banks of the Bug, and were killed.

> [snip]
>
> > The total number of Jews who were killed by the Germans in the Berezovka
> > district was 32,600. See Centrul Pentru Studiul Istoriei Evreilor din
> > Romania, MARTIRIUL EVREILOR DIN ROMANIA 1940-1944, (Bucuresti: Editura
> > Hasefer, 1991), p. 186, photostat of Document no. 87 on p. 187.
> >
> > > > > According to Hilberg:
> > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > >
> > > > > In Bucharest, Vice Premier Mihai Antonescu called Govenor Alexianu to
> > > > > report on the matter [of Romanian deportations across the Bug River].
By
> > > > > that time the crisis was begining to pass The _Generalkommissar_ in
> > > > > Nikolaev reported that the movement of Jews across the border had
> > > > > stopped. [10,000 had been pushed across in February, 1942.]
> >
> > There is no evidence in Romanian documents concerning this.
>
> There is certainly _German_ documentation concerning this: Luther via
> Weizsäcker to Ribbontrop, February 11, 1942, NG-4817.

I have read about that in Hilberg and other sources.

> >  Romania stopped deporting Jews beyond the Bug in late 1941.
>
> Just because you are either unware, or choose to ignore, such
> documentation as NG-4817 does not mean Romania did not deport Jews across
> the Bug River.

It did, but earlier than you think, in 1941. Perhaps we should write a letter
to the U.S.H.M.M. to see who is right.


> > > > > Those who were already across were shipped back to the Transnistrian
> > > > > port of Odessa.

Julius Fisher, TRANSNISTRIA, THE FORGOTTEN CEMETERY, 1969, argues, correctly,
I might add, that no Jews were sent back to Odessa.


 As the flow of Jews across the Bug was stemmed, the
> > > > > Foreign Office received a report that the receeding masses of Jews
were
> > > > > subjected to killing operations."About 28,000 Jews were taken to
German
> > > > > villages in Transistria,"
> >
> > Which proves that these people were not deported east of the Bug as van
> > Alstine claims.  wrote a
>
> "At the beginning of February, 1942, the Ministry for Eastern Occupied
> Territories informed the German Foreign Office that the Roumanians had
> sudenly deported 10,000 Jews across the Bug in Vosnesenk area and that
> another 60,000 were expected to follow." (Cf. Hilberg, _Destruction_,
> p.497; ref. NG-4817 .)

The Germans were not up to date. The 60,000 might have been exactly those
killed at Domanevka, Akhmetchetka, and especially Bogdanovka.


>
> Cleary, according to Luther's report, 10,000 Jews _were_ deported across
> the Bug. This did not sit well with the Nazis, however, as the
> Einsatzgruppen had its hands full with mobile killing operations on their
> side of the Bug in the Ukraine. Eichmann wrote the Foreign Office that the
> Romanian deportation, though "approved in principle," was unwanted at the
> time as it was "planless and premature." The Nazis subsequently deported
> these 10,000 Jews, who were origionally deported by the Romanians across
> the Bug, to Odessa in Transnistria. (Cf. Hilberg, _Destruction_, p.497.)
>
> In short, 10,000 Romanian Jews _were_ deported across the Bug River. The
> Nazis, too busy killing Ukranians, deported them back.

You mean to say Ukrainian Jews from east of the Bug.

>
> > > > > Foreign Office offical. "Meanwhile, they have been liquidated."
Whatever
> > > > > the mysterious reference to the ethnic German villages may mean, these
> > > > > shootings were not the begining of a new operation; they were the end
> > > > > phase of the old. From now on the Roumanians were retreating.
> > > > >
> >
> > After February 1942, very few Jews were killed by the Romanians, as one can
> > see in Radu Ioanid, THE SWORD OF THE ARCHANGEL, (Boulder, Colorado: Eastern
> > European Monographs, 1990).
>
> And this somehow excuses the extermination of 48,000 Jews, for example, at
> Bogdanovka on December 21-23, 1941?

It does not, nor have I argued that it does. Besides, the time span was larger
(not just three days, but also after Christmas).


Moreover this does not address the
> German Foreign Office reporting on May 16, 1942, that "about 28,000 Jews
> were taken to German villiges Transnistria" where they were subsequently
> liquidated. (Cf. Hilberg, _Destruction_, pp.496,497; ref. Note by Triska,
> May 16, 1942, NG-4817.)

They were liquidated by the Germans, including the local Volksdeutsche, as
the Romanian documents show. I have already indicated that their number was
32,600, not 28,000. The difference between 32,600 and about 28,000 were
killed after May 16 or whatever.


>
> > > > > 
> > > > >
> > > > > Source: Hilberg, _The Destruction of the European Jews_, p.497.
> > > > >
> > > > > > If by extermination camps you mean camps with gas chambers,
> > > > > > if you include only Romanian citizens, and if you exclude Romanian
> > > > > > Jews residing outside the country, then the answer is ZERO. Until
some
> > > > > > time in early 1943, some Polish Jews who had illegally entered
> > > > > > Bucovina were expelled back to Poland, and the Nazis probably took
> > > > > > these 200 or so people to camps with gas chambers.
> > > > >
> > > > > Actually, Romania was the only country in WWII besides Nazi Germany to
> > > > > build and operate (albeit small) _extermination_ camps (sans gas
> > > > > chambers):- meaning without gas chambers.
> >
> > Romania did not "build" or "operate" extermination camps.
>
> Then what do you call Bogdanovka? What do you call a camp where some
> 48,000 Jews were forced to strip naked in sub-zero weather and were then
> shot to death? A health spa? And _you_ whine about people being dishonest?
> Pathetic.

I did not deny that the killings occurred, as one can see in what I wrote in
my posting.

> > Some concentration camps became extermination sites because of outbreaks
> > of typhus.
>
> Are you saying that the shooting 48,000 people was because of typhus
> outbreaks? What was this supposed to be preventative "health" measures?
> And _you_ whine about people being dishonest? Pathetic.
>

 That was Isopescu's thinking. I do not call him a humanitarian, but a
murderer.


> > Slightly more than 68,000 Jews were executed at Bogdanovka, Domanevka and
> > Akhmetchetka in the period from December 1941 until February 1942 according
> > to the testimony of the prefect of the county in which the camps were
> > located (Golta). He had ordered the massacres, not Marshal Antonescu.
>
> First you say "some concentration camps became extermination sites because
> of outbreaks of typhus," (as if _that_ is an excuse!)

It was not an excuse, but a cause. The Romanians would have liked to ship them
over the Bug, but the Germans did not want them. Many Jews got sick, and
Isopescu did not want the Romanian army, the local people, etc., to get sick,
and killed the Jews.

 then you say
> "slightly more than 68,000 Jews were executed at Bogdanovka, Domanevka and
> Akhmetchetka..." Do you not see the contradiction of your words?

No, and your techniques should be described as sophistic, good for a debate,
but not for scholarship.

 And _you_
> whine about people being dishonest? Pathetic.




>
> [Popovici's whining snipped]
>
> > > > > which was under Roumanian occupation. In that territory the Roumanians
> > > > > maintained true killing centers. Besides Germany itself, Roumania was
> > > > > thus the only country which implemented all the steps of the
destruction
> > > > > process, from definitions to killings.
> > > > >
> >
> > How about the Star of David ? At the beginning of September 1941, Antonescu
> > decided that there should be no Star of David. The businesses of the Jews
who
> > were not deported were moreover not confiscated, Jews always had schools, a
> > theatre. Each Romanian law defined Jews differently, unlike in Germany. A
> > person could be an officer on the Eastern Front, but could not be a baggage
> > handler in the North Train Station in Bucharest !
>
> And are you seriously suggesting that this somehow excuses the Romanians
> exterminating- by _your_ account -some 68,000 Jews at "Bogdanovka,
> Domanevka and  Akhmetchetka in the period from December 1941 until
> February 1942?"  And _you_ whine about people being dishonest? Pathetic.
>

Over 68,000. And it does not. However, your beloved Hilberg does define the
use of the Star of David as one of the steps in the killing process, if I
recall correctly.

> > > > > [...]
> > > > >
> > > > > ...At the end of the [Bogdanovka] operation 48,000 Jews had been
> > > > > massacred. About 200 selected survivors were detailed to burn the
bodies
> > > > > that remained on the top of the precipice. For two months corpses were
> > > > > burned at the Bug River, and at the end of that operation 150 of the
200
> > > > > survovors were shot. According to Levai, Colonel Isopescu extended his
> > > > > killing operations to two ther camps in his prefecture: Dumanokva,
where
> > > > > 18,000 Jews were shot, and Akmecetka, where 5000 were killed. It
> > > > > appears,therefore, that in the Golta prefecture alone more than 70,000
> > > > > Jews were massacred in mass shootings.
> > > > >

OK, so perhaps the number was 70,000, of which over 68,000 were executed. The
rest might have died of typhus.


> > > > > 
> > > > >
> > > > > Source: Hilberg, _The Destruction of the European Jews_, pp.485,496.
> > > > >
> > > > > >       As I have noted in the text, the Hungarian authorities sent
> > > > > > 437,402 Jews to Auschwitz, or 434,000, or 426,000, if one uses
sources
> > > > > > which are more pro-Hungarian. Professor Arno Mayer of Princeton, who
> > > > > > is of Luxembourg Jewish origin, argues that only 300-400,000
Hungarian
> > > > > > Jews were shipped to Auschwitz, and informs us that 'On May 11
Himmler
> > > > > > notified Pohl that Hitler had ordered 10,000 officers and men of the
> > > > > > Waffen-SS to be detached "to guard the 200,000 Jews ...[about] to be
> > > > > > transferred to the Reich's concentration [i.e., non-extermination]
> > > > > > camps for assignment to large construction projects of the Todt
> > > > > > Organization or to other essential war work."' (Arno Mayer, Why Did
> > > > > > The Heavens Not Darken: The "Final Solution" in History, New York:
> > > > > > Pantheon Books, 1988, p. 375).
> > > > >
> > > > > This is a misrepresentation of Mayer's text.
> >
> > Where did I say that I agree with Mayer ?
>
> I claimed you _distorted_ Mayer. Why? Evidently so that you could say that
> Mayer supported your hypocrisy.

No, I believe that 437,402, not 300-400,000 Jews, were shipped to Auschwitz.


> > What nefarious purposes would I have to do that ?
>
> White-washing mass murder?

I am a Romanian. Why would I whitewash the Germans and the Hungarians.


> > > > > Mayer does not confirm that 200,00 Hungarian Jews _were_ transferred
> > > > > to Nazi concentration camps
>
> > He means to say "200,000".
>
> > > > > [i.e. non-extermination camps] but only that "Himmler notified Pohl
> > > > > that Hitler had ordered" such and that they "were to be selected"
> > > > > -not, in fact, _actually selected_. Moreover, it is easily  argued
> > > > > that Mayer discounts that this happened by noting that the deportees
> > > > > were "unsuited for this work, let alone for hard labor," and that the
> > > > > accumulated Hungarian Jews at Auschwitz in 1944 "rose from 67,000 to
> > > > > 135,000, to be decimated by undernourishment, disease, and gassing
> > > > > during the remainder of the year."
> > > > >
> > > > > According to Mayer:
> > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > >
> > > > > ...On May 11 Himmler notified Pohl that Hitler had ordered 10,000
> > > > > officers and men of the Waffen-SS to be detached "to guard the 200,000
> > > > > Jews...[about] to be transferred to the Reich's concentration camps
for
> > > > > assignment to large construction projects of the Todt Organization or
to
> > > > > other essential war work." From among the 300,000 to 400,000 Hungarian
> > > > > Jews shipped to Auschwitz, between 100,000 and 200,000 were to be
> > > > > selected to excavate and build the bunkers for the production of
> > > > > military aircraft. The transports from Hungary were, of course, packed
> > > > > with Jews unsuited for this work, let alone for hard labor, especially
> > > > > since Budapest continued to conscript Jewish males for its own labor
> > > > > battalions. Before long, the influx of Hungarian Jews contributed
> to the
> > > > > accute overcrowdings of Auschwitz and to making the Jews for the first
> > > > > time the single largest group of inmates in the camp. Between April
and
> > > > > August 1944 the population of Auschwitz rose from 67,000 to 135,000,
to
> > > > > be decimated by undernourishment, disease, and gassing during the
> > > > > remainder of the year.
> > > > >
> > > > > [...]
> > > > >
> > > > > The bulk of the Jews deported from Hungary were taken to Auschwitz,
and
> > > > > many of them died en route. Upon arrival there, an uncertain
percentage
> > > > > were selected as fit for work. All the other were condemned either to
> > > > > waste away from exposure, malnutrition, and sickness, or to be killed
> > > > > outright, mostly by gassing. It is impossible to give an accurate
> > > > > breakdown of the number selected to work, to languish in conditions
that
> > > > > spelled "natural" death, or to be murdered. With the influx of the
> > > > > Hungarian Jews, the always execrable living and sanitary facilities of
> > > > > Auschwitz became even more atrociously overloaded, turning Birkenau
> > > > > particularly into a hell on earth and into "the journey's end" for
> > > > > those unfit for labor -for infants, children, the aged, the sick, the
> > > > > disabled.
> > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > >
> > > > > Source: Mayer, _Why Did The Heavens Not Darken?_, pp.375,436.
> > > > >
> > > > > Additionally, according to Randolf Braham:
> >
> > Reszo Braham from Dej is known for being both anti-Romanian and
> > anti-Hungarian.
>
> Citations? It's one thing to make ad hominen attacks and quite another to
> substantiate them.

I will do that in my next posting. See, for example, Randolph Braham (ed.),
THE TRAGEDY OF ROMANIAN JEWRY, (Boulder, Colorado, 1994).

> > He also falsely accuses his critics, such as Gheorghe Buzatu,
> > of being Holocaust Deniers.
>
> Citations? It's one thing to make ad hominen attacks and quite another to
> substantiate them.

Ditto, in the winter of 1998 number of the East European Quarterly. I must
admit that I am a little bit tough on Braham, and that I might have gone
overboard.

> > When Braham was criticized in H-Diplo, nobody
> > answered by praising him.
>
> So? This is supposed to prove something?
>

OK, so maybe it proves that among the 1,200 people on H-Diplo, some of whom
are Holocaust scholars (see their postings), none of them defended Braham.
Perhaps they were busy or something. Mea Culpa.


> > > > > Of the approximately 438,000 Hungarian Jews deported to Auschwitz from
> > > > > May 15 to July 9, 1944, about 10 percent were determined to be fit for
> > > > > labor
> >
> > Fit for labor in Auschwitz. Others were deported to camps in Germany.
>
> And your proof of this is? Why none of course. On the other hand, one can
> read the daily entries in Czech's _Auschwitz Chronicle_ for the perod of
> Aktion Höss and see that the vast majority of Hungarian Jews _not_ "fit
> for work" were killed in the gas chambers.

The "vast majority", not all.

>
> > Much more than 10% were not sent immediately to the gas chamber, as the
> > quotation from Mayer shows.
>
> So you _are_ agreeing with Mayer. It seems you like to change your spots
> when it suits your purposes. Too bad you don't seem to comprehend Mayer's
> writing. (Too bad Mayber doesn't cite his sources too.)

I agree that it's too bad that he does not cite his sources.

 He writes that
> "between 100,000 and 200,000 were to be selected to excavate and build the
> bunkers for the production of military aircraft." Not _were_ selected, but
> were to _be_ selected. Not the same thing at all. Of course, if you claim
> otherwise- and wish to be taken seriously -all you need do is produce the
> transport records that show that "between 100,000 and 200,000" were sent
> _from_ Auschwitz between mid-May to late-July of 1944, to concentration
> camps in Germany. Mayer certainly doesn't.
>
Some were sent later, and the number was something like 100,000, as Goldhagen
says, if I remember correctly.

> > > > > Some were retained to work in Auschwitz itself; the remainder were
> > > > > dispersed to 386 camps in the Nazi empire. The largest groups were
> > > > > concentrated in the notorius camps of Bergen-Belsen, Buchenwald,
> > > > > Dachau,Gross-Rosen, Gynskirchen, Mauthausen, Neuengamme, Ravensbrück,
> > > > > and Sachenhausen. Like Auschwitz, several of those camps had subcamps.
> > > > > The number of Hungarian Jews in Auschwitz continued to decline
following
> > > > > the periodic selections and transfers. By the time the camp was
> > > > > evacuated in 1945, only a few thousand were left. Most of them were
> > > > > transferred on long death marches to other camps in central and
western
> > > > > parts of the fast-crumbling Third Reich. Few who were evacuated
> > > > > survived until the liberation in April and May 1945.
> > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > >
> > > > > Source: Gutman, _Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp_, p.466.
> > > > >
> > > > > Additionally, Rudolf Höss, the cammandant of Auschwitz, wrote in his
> > > > > memoirs that 400,000 Hungarians Jews were killed at Auschwitz (during
> > > > > Aktion Höss in the summer of 1944). This also indicates that the the
> > > > > pecentage of Hungarian Jews "fit for work" was around 10 percent. (Cf.
> > > > > Höss, _Death Dealer_, p.39.)
> > > > >
> > > > > Ten percent is about 44,000. That is a far cry from the 200,000
> > > > > Hungarian Jews Mr. Popovici intimates were shipped to Nazi
> > > > > concentration camps.
> >
> > I did not intimate such a thing.
>
> After flip-flopping like a gaffed fish, you just agreed with Mayer that
> "much more than 10% were not sent immediately to the gas chamber."

Some were sent to Germany.

You
> origionally distorted Mayer citation of Himmler's May 11, 1944, letter to
> Pohl, saying that "...10,000 officers and men of the Waffen-SS to be
> detached 'to guard the 200,000 Jews ...[about] to be transferred to the
> Reich's concentration [i.e., non-extermination] camps....'"
>
> You clearly intimate such a thing. And _you_ whine about people being
> dishonest? Pathetic.
>
> [snip]
>
> > > > > Not that all of these 44,000 Hungarian Jews actually made it to a Nazi
> > > > > concentration camp. Or survived if they did.
> >
> > About 44,000 Jews deported from Northern Transylvania by the Hungarians and
> > Germans returned after the war according to the book by Manuila and
Filderman
> > mentioned by Mircea.
>
> And were these 44,000 Jews deported to Auschwitz? Or were they among those
> "death marched" away after deportations to Auschwitz stopped?
>

See Sabin Manuila and Wilhelm Filderman, The Jewish Population in Romania
duing World War II, (Iasi: The Romanian Cultural Foundation, 1994), p. 52 in
Romanian, and p. 53 in English. Sabin Manuila was a great Romanian
statistician, and Filderman was the leader of the Jews of Romania. "In 1930
there were 138,917 Jews living there (the figure of 148,295 appears to refer
to those of Jewish faith). The Hungarian census of January 31, 1941, found
151,125 Jews living in that part... Those of Northern Transylvania were
deported to Germany, by the Hungarian government, to forced labor camps, with
the exception of 14,000. A total of 44,000 were returned to Romania, which
were found in various camps there at the end of the war. Hence there were
altogether 58,000 survivors". Many survivors were Hungarian Jews from outside
Northern Transylvania.

> [snip]
>
> > > > > Almost 620,000 Jews living in Hungary died or were deported or killed
> > > > > before the liberation of Hungary in early 1945.
> >
> > "Died or were deported". According to the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust,
(New
> > York: Macmillan Publishing Company, vol. 2, p. 703, 564,500 Jews died during
> > the war.
>
> You seem to have a compreshension problem. "620,000 Jews living in Hungary
> died or were deported" does not conflict with "564,500 Jews died."

I know that, and I did not deny that, nor do I have a comprehension problem,
but you seem to do.

 The
> 620,000 bumber is inclusive of the 564,500 number, as it is the total of a
> greater number who were killed and deported.
>
> > Braham has himself criticized the 620,000 figure when it was used by
> > a Romanian nitwit.
>
> Interesting then, is it, not that you cite the article in the _Encyclodia
> of the Holocaust_, as authoritive. An article by Brahman! Also note that
> in the bibliography of the article, Braham's works comprise two of the
> four sources. It appears that, on one hand, you criticize Brahman when it
> suits you and, on the other hand, you cite him when it suits you.
>

The Encyclopedia of the Holocaust edited Braham's article. Braham is a
competent scholar, but when he is annoyed by someone or by something, then he
displays biases, and intemperate language. Of course, Braham was also on the
editorial board of the Encyclopedia.

> Don't you think that's just a tad hypocritical of you? I do.
>
> > However, I would suspect that only something like 450,000
> > Hungarian Jews died.
>
> And I would suspect a higher number. Something around 564,500 Hungarian Jews.
>

Lucy S. Dawidowicz, THE WAR AGAINST THE JEWS, (New York: Holt, Rhinehart and
Winston, 1975), p. 517 and 544, would support my statistics, to which I
arrived independently.


> > G.D. Paikert, from whom Deak seems to have gotten the
> > idea that Hungary was the country with the highest number of Holocaust
> > survivors, even though he digested it poorly, has a lower estimate. See G.C.
> > Paikert, THE DANUBE SWABIANS, (The Hague: Martinus Nijhoff, 1967).
>
> > G.D. Paikert served in the Hungarian Ministry of Education from 1934 until
the
> > German occupation of 1944, as the head of the department for the schooling
of
> > national minorities. He tells us on p. 166. "And though the losses of the
> > Hungarian Jewry were shockingly high, in relative terms they were yet the
> > lowest in all of the German controlled central and eastern European lands,
> > matched only perhaps by Rumania...Due to missing records and contradictory
> > estimates it is impossible to obtaine even fairly accurate data on the
losses
> > of the Hungarian Jewry during the Nazi holocaust. It is therefore only
little
> > better than an estimate at random to set the figure at around half a
million,
> > of which some 70 to 80 percent represent the dead [i.e., 350-400,000].
> > The majoirty of the survivors of the camps in Germany didd not return to
> > Hungary but emigrated to the United States, Israel and in a fewere cases to
> > other, mostly overseas places."
>
> And Paikert sources for his assumption are?
>

See them for yourself. He cites Eugene Levai, who is cited extensively by
Hilberg, and other sources.


> According to Dinnerstein:
>



> 
>
> Between 1945 and 1953, the United States accepted about 400,000 Dps, of
> whom perhaps 20 perrcent wer Jewish. (Exact figures are impossible to
> obtain.) Great Britian admitted about 100,000 people, but figures are not
> available for the percentage of Jews. Some 136,000 Jewish DPs went to
> Israel, but here again statistics are only estimates.
>

 The number for Israel probably applies only to DP's. It probably refers only
to the Jews from the camps, and probably excludes groups such as the Romanian
Jews who stayed at home during the entire war.


> 
>
> Source: Gutman, _Encyclopedia of the Holocaust_, p.389.
>
> Assuming the percentage of Jewish DP's to Britain was also 20 percent,
> that would mean about 236,000 Jews emmigrated from the Continent. Even,
> for argument's sake, assuming _all_ 236,000 DPs were Hungarian Jews (which
> is unrealistic), Paikert's total for the number of Hungarian Jews deported
> (aproximatyely 500,000-571,000) falls short of other historian's
> estimates. If a more realistic percentage for Hungarian DPs were used, it
> becomes evident that Paikert's assumptions are untenable.
>

OK, and I believe that 450,000 Hungarian Jews died, not 350-400,000 as Paikert
does. But my point was to show why many Hungarians minimize the number of dead
Jews in Hungary.






> [Popovici's whining snipped]
>

All of my comments are described as "whining". The readers should judge for
themselves whether Mark is right. Most would probably agree that he is wrong.
My "whining" also probably includes the fact that I proved that Antonescu
planned to deport the Jews to Transnistria, not to Belzec, and many other
things. The fact that van Alstine has been silent on some issues is telling.
Should I interpret it as a concession ? I would also add that the word
"Pathetic" has been used a little bit too often.

> Mark
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line seperating good and evil
passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political
parties--but right through every human heart--and all human hearts."
>
> -- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>


--
George Popovici

Silence is an answer, but not the answer.
(George Popovici, ancestor of the poster,

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From gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com Thu Jul 30 18:40:04 EDT 1998
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In article <35bccc28.7470962@news.sig.net>,
  mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:
> gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com wrote:

I must apologize for the brevit of my answer.


> >> > 3. No Holocaust historian specializing in Romania, neither Radu Ioanid,
nor
> >> > Jean Ancel, nor Julius Fisher, nor Th. Lavi, nor Lya Benjamin, nor
anybody
> >> > else, has used the above mentioned document, or talked about the 10,000
Jews
> >> > sent over the Bug and back again.
> >>
> >> Gee, sounds like a small oversight on their part.
> >
> >I do not share your opinion.
>
> Tell me why if you won't tell Mark. I have read you letter to him in
> June. In fact I can't find an answer to why anywhere in this thread.

Because there is no documentary evidence, from Romanian sources, for his view.


> >>
> >> > Rabbi Fisher in fact even criticized
> >> > Reitlinger for being wrong in using it.
> >>
> >> Why?
>
> >Read the sources mentioned by me in this and other postings.
>
> Humor _me_. Tell _me_ why in answer this post. I'll be happy to
> consider the why.

Because Reitlinger implied that some of these Jews were shipped back to
Odessa, and all, or some, of them remained, or survived, in the city. They
did not, nor where they shipped east of the Bug, then back again, and then to
Odessa.


>
> >> > I am not going to prove that I am right.
> >>
> >> Because you cannot prove that you are right.
> >
> >I have only a few more days of vacation, and I am not going to answer every
> >comment.
>
> It seems to be an important point. You were conserned with how others
> read your postings and replies right?
>
No, I am simply very busy. I have a job and a quarter (a regular job, plus
dirt-digging on Clinton et al.)


> >> > If van Alstine wants to make a fool
> >> > of himself, then let him believe in what Hilberg wrote on this issue, and
in
> >> > his German documents. He should consult the article by Jean Ancel in Yad
> >> > Vashem Studies, in 1993, and all the other sources, whether ever quoted
by
> >> > title by me, in whatever context, or not, at the right page. These
sources
> >do
> >> > not talk about this kind of transfer...
> >>
> >> Poopy, citing Ancel not citing NG-4817 is not proof that 10,000 Romanian
> >> Jews were nor expelled across the Bug River.
>
> It seems that a source dropping is enough for him. Good MAs can make a
> brief synopsis of a source and what makes its claims stand up.
>
> [snip]
>
> >> > > Romanians. That who. What do you call a place where such things are if
not
> >> > > a Romanian extermination camp?
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > They were extermination sites or camps.
> >>
> >> But previously you denied that Romania had extermination camps! Are you
> >> now saying otherwise?
> >
> >I never denied it.
>
> Well, it appeared to me that he was denying that Romanians had much to
> do with them. Yet above he admits that Romanian officials were
> involved. (Sorry I snipped it.) But it is confusing for me.

Please read all of my posts, including what I posted today.

> [snip]
>
> >> > > Your claim, your burden of proof, Poopy.
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > There are many such sources. The materials related to the trial of Modest
> >> > Isopescu in Jean Ancel (ed.), Documents Concerning the Fate of Romanian
> >Jewry
> >> > during the Holocaust, vol. 5 and 6, published by the Klarsfeld
Foundation,
> >> > Jerusalem and New York, 1986, are highly recommended reading. At any
rate,
> >> > the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust (fully cited by me elsewhere), vol. 1,
p.
> >> > 226, says, "Several cases of typhus broke out in the camp in mid-December
> >> > [1941]. In consultation with Fleischer, the German adviser to the
Romanian
> >> > administration of the district, Isopescu decided to kill the entire camp
> >> > population and issued an order to this effect to Vasile Manescu, the
> >military
> >> > government official in charge of the district.
> >>
> >> Several cases typhus break out and the Romanians run off and shoot 48,000
> >> people? Don't you see the absurdity of trying to defend such an atrocity
> >> by blaming it on typhus? Typhus is _preventable_. Easily preventable. It
> >> has a low mortality rate among healthy people. Yet the Romanians, instead
> >> of treating the causes of typhus, shoot 48,000 Jews because of a few cases
> >> of typhus.
>
> >OK, and I never argued otherwise.
>
> I think I've lost whatever point P was trying to make. I think it has
> been obfuscated in all this back and forth.
>
> [snip -- How we get to Clinton I'll never know]
>
I "dig dirt" on Clinton for about ten hours a day, and I get paid for it, too.


> >The readers should look at what Van Alstine snips, and judge for themselves
> >what that means.
>
> There is a lot of snipping going on. You are posting in a newsgroup
> where a lot of folks who totally deny the Holocaust reside.

True.

 They are
> not revisionists. I've found that historical discussions here have no
> merit.

Sometimes they do, and Ken McVay saves them.

 I think you are trying to have this one in the wrong group.

I think that the discussion was originally in soc.culture.romanian and
soc.culture.magyar, before Mark got in.

 You
> use a lot of sources that are not immediately available to all and
> expect many of us to believe you because you drop those sources.

People can check all of these things in the future, after ten years, or
whatever.

 You
> want us to beleive them on their merit alone. Well, this isn't the
> newsgroup for that.

Perhaps, but which one is. I have received a few letters from an ethnic
Hungarian who wishes to remain anonymous, and who found my postings very
informative.

 In this group you have to make a very basic

You mean, like proving that there were gas chambers at Auschwitz, or other
things which have already been proven.


and
> well substantiated case

How many more sources should I have cited ?

 peice by piece.

Did I put ten sources in one place, at the end of the message and say "this is
my bibliography". Did I not go into detail ?

 You aren't here with
> historians.

Danny Keren is actually quite well informed. Yet I see what you mean. Even
Mark has done a great deal of reading about Auschwitz. He knows some things
about the camp which I do not know. Yet he does not know for example that the
Holocaustologist Oliver Lustig, a university professor in Bucharest in his
book BLOOD-BESPOTTED DIARY, (Bucharest: Editura Stiintifica si Enciclopedica,
1988), actually more of a history book than a diary, although he was a
deportee to Auschwitz, and he does talk about his experiences, says that the
Jewish deportees from Hungary who were sent to Auschwitz "were taken, at a
rate of 70 to 80 per hundred, directly to the gas chambers" immediately upon
arrival (p. 295). Although the book uses many sources, many of which I have
seen elsewhere, he often does not cite the books and sources which he is
using. Most of Lustig's family died in the camps, especially at Auschwitz (p.
5-6 and passim).



 You are here with people who care about history and can't
> stand outright denial of it.

You mean to say that there are some people who are very much against
Holocaust Denial, i.e., the denial of history, or, should I rather say, of
memory. And of course they put everyone who disagrees with them in the
"denier" bag, even if it is inappropriate.

I must also note the fact that my limited time forces me to think little and
type fast. This explains some of the deficiencies which my postings might
have, but my papers in college and graduate school never had.

>
> [snip]
>
> >You are claiming that I am dishonest. You are also free to believe that the
> >earth is flat.
>
> You and the evidence of the earth not being flat are two different
> things.
>

OK, my point was rhetorical.

> >> > but because I had read the book a long
> >> > time ago, and because I take poor notes when I do not have to take good
> >> > notes. Finally, I do not own the book. I just made a few photocopies from
> >it.
> >>
> >> Excuses not accepted. Especially from an alleged "historian" who should
> >> have known better.
> >
> >Are you implying that my M.A. diploma is a fake ?
>
> Look. Credentials i this group mean nothing. One give credietnials and
> gets attacked for them.

1. The fact that I have an M.A. in History means that I am trained in the
discipline, not that I am a professional historian. I have not published
anything.

 One doesn't and so one is questioned about
> what one qualifications are. Once on gives them they are attacked.

True.
 I
> have found that historians are better off making quality arguments and
> not puffing up for the group.

OK.

> Mike Curtis
>
>


--
George Popovici

Silence is an answer, but not the answer.

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From gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com Thu Jul 30 18:40:04 EDT 1998
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In article ,
  dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
> gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com writes:
> # dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
> ## Hmm. The gas chambers never broke down; the cremation
> ## furnaces did, at times. That was probably one reason for
> ## open-air burning of the corpses.
>
> # You are probably generally correct. Some problems with the first
> # gassing in crematorium IV are noted in Jean Claude Pressac with
> # Robert-Jan van Pelt, "The Machinery of Mass Murder at Auschwitz",
> # in Yisrael Gutman and Michael Berenbaum (ed.), ANATOMY OF THE
> # AUSCHWITZ DEATH CAMP, (Bloomington: Indiana University Press,
> # 1994), p. 234.
>
> Yes, but the gassing procedure was rather simple and didn't
> really involve anything that could break down, except possibly
> the ventilation systems of the underground chambers in Kremas
> II&III - and I am not aware of any problems developing with them.
>
> Furnaces are something different - they were run beyond their
> safety limits and damaged, as were the chimneys. You may be
> aware of Kurt Prufer's testimony and other sources re this.
>
> ## You're also correct in saying that they were not always
> ## operational, but even then they could have been used to murder
> ## a million people.
>
> # OK, but what interests me more is how many were actually gassed
> # rather than how many could have been gassed, and how many died
> # overall than how many could have died overall.
>
> Ok. But please note that I was specifically replying to your
> suggestion that they could not have been used to murder a million
> people.

Fair enough. When I write in a hurry, I suppose that sometimes I am not very
careful in expressing my views.

>
> # I will look at them in the future. I have just found a source
> # which estimates the number of deportees who died on the way at 30%,
> # which was regarded by the researchers of the Institute of Jewish
> # Affairs as typical. It was allegedly a Report by Obersturmfuehrer
> # Hiegs to Himmler whose contents were already known in the Western
> # Allied countries in 1943. I do not know the details, or how accurate
> # the report was, but my source is Institute of Jewish Affairs of the
> # American Jewish Congress, HITLER'S WAR ON THE JEWS, (New York: August
> # 1943), p. 308 and passim.
>
> Now that is interesting. BTW, there is a document about massive numbers
> of Soviet POWs dying in the trains. Are you interested?

Of course. Thank you for asking.

> # Many things which appear in this book are consistent with what was
> # intercepted by Venona, but are still classified. It is unfortunate
> # that much of what was know in 1943 has been "forgotten" or ignored
> # in the meantime for one reason or another, including the failure
> # of the U.S. government to declassify the documents. At any rate, you
> # once posted an article with data from the Die Institut fur
> # Zeitgeschichte in which the number of dead Jews at Auschwitz,
> # Majdanek, Treblinka, Belzec, Chelmno, and Sobibor added up to
> # something like 2.65 million.  Hilberg believes that it was up to
> # 2.7 million. If the percentage who had died on the trains would
> # have been half or more, 1.5 million or less Jews would have died
> # within the six camps. Perhaps the Venona interceptions exaggerated
> # the number of Jews who died on the way (let's say that the number
> # was 795,000, or 800,000, but even if it was 600,000 or 900,000, the
> # mechanism matters more than the numbers), but the number was still
> # considerable. What is strange is that, as far as I know, more than a
> # third of the literature concerning deaths on the trains refers to
> # the Iasi pogrom. Would I have any independent confirmation for the
> # 30% figure ? The women's hair from Belzec sent out of the come could
> # have come from 200,000 women (the exact quantity is known).
>
> Frankly I am not sure how such numbers can be estimate with reasonable
> accuracy.

True, but hundreds of thousands of Jews did die on the trains.

 Also, since the SS collected the hair, why would they not
> have it cut from those who died in the trains?

Also true. Yet it would be more difficult to cut the hair from dead people in
piles.

>
> I am not saying that this makes your theory false, just questioning
> whether it can be proved using this criterion.

You are right.

> # About 550-600,000 Jews were sent to Belzec, and I believe that about
> # one half had to be females. The Gerstein Report for Belzec said that
> # 1,450 out of 6,700 Jews who had arrived by train were already dead.
> # In any case, I am trying to figure out the mechanism of the Holocaust
> # more than the exact number of the dead.
>
> That, I agree, is important.
>
Thank you for your comments. I have cited other sources in a spinoff of this
thread, "The Holocaust and Venona", or something like that.



> -Danny Keren.
>
>


--
George Popovici

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In article <35bf267b.161689662@news.sig.net>,
  mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:
> gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> >In article <35bccc28.7470962@news.sig.net>,
> >  mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:
> >> gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >
> >I must apologize for the brevit of my answer.

Again, the same.

> >
> >> >> > 3. No Holocaust historian specializing in Romania, neither Radu
Ioanid,
> >nor
> >> >> > Jean Ancel, nor Julius Fisher, nor Th. Lavi, nor Lya Benjamin, nor
> >anybody
> >> >> > else, has used the above mentioned document, or talked about the
10,000
> >Jews
> >> >> > sent over the Bug and back again.
> >> >>
> >> >> Gee, sounds like a small oversight on their part.
> >> >
> >> >I do not share your opinion.
> >>
> >> Tell me why if you won't tell Mark. I have read you letter to him in
> >> June. In fact I can't find an answer to why anywhere in this thread.
> >
> >Because there is no documentary evidence, from Romanian sources, for his
view.
>
> It's not _his_ view but the presentations of other historians who are
> not excluding evidence that _isn't_ from Romanian sources. So I must
> suggest based on your tunnel vision that you might have to seek other
> sources in order to find out what might be missing.

I will contact the U.S.H.M.M., which has 800,000 documents from the archives
of Romania, the Republic of Moldova, and Ukraine (source: an e-mail from Radu
Ioanid to me) concerning the genocide against Jews in the areas controlled by
Romania. Yet if my theory will be supported by them, then you will say "how
about the Russian archives. Russia did not hand over the relevant documents
to the U.S.H.M.M." And you would be right. I think that probably, and I
emphasize probably, Mark and Hilberg are wrong, and I, and all the
specialists on the Holocaust in Romania, are right. After a number of years,
we might know for sure.


>
> >> >>
> >> >> > Rabbi Fisher in fact even criticized
> >> >> > Reitlinger for being wrong in using it.
> >> >>
> >> >> Why?
> >>
> >> >Read the sources mentioned by me in this and other postings.
> >>
> >> Humor _me_. Tell _me_ why in answer this post. I'll be happy to
> >> consider the why.
> >
> >Because Reitlinger implied that some of these Jews were shipped back to
> >Odessa,
>
> Did he _imply it or did he support it with a document? I think you are
> being devious here in your use of words.

Reitlinger used a document, and I was not devious, but careless.

>
> > and all, or some, of them remained, or survived, in the city. They
>
> Some of them remained? What happened to the others not included in
> "some of them?"
>

None were sent, in my opinion.

> >did not, nor where they shipped east of the Bug, then back again, and then to
> >Odessa.
>
> I only hope we are all talking about the same thing happening at the
> same date. This discussion is so disorganized that it is very hard to
> tell.

It is a fact than in November 1941, Romania shipped a number of Jews over the
Bug, to the German area, where they were all killed. I have mentioned that in
a previous posting. Could the German documents be accurate, but
chronologically misleading ? Perhaps, within the context that everything
would have taken place in November 1941, and that 10,000 is an approximation
for the real number, and should be understood as meaning "more than 5,000".
Perhaps the Germans liquidated 10,000 Jews, one or more thousand of which had
been sent from Transnistria. Another possibility might be that the Germans
got confused. Some cities have two parts (such as Golta-Pervomaisk) one on
one side of the Bug, and the other, on the other.


> >>
> >> >> > I am not going to prove that I am right.
> >> >>
> >> >> Because you cannot prove that you are right.
> >> >
> >> >I have only a few more days of vacation, and I am not going to answer
every
> >> >comment.
> >>
> >> It seems to be an important point. You were conserned with how others
> >> read your postings and replies right?
> >>
> >No, I am simply very busy. I have a job and a quarter (a regular job, plus
> >dirt-digging on Clinton et al.)
>
> Let the power hungry in Washington dirt dig. They don't need amatuers
> like you digging up nonsense.

1. I am trained in research.


2. It is not nonsense, but I will deal with all of these issues later.

 While your at it you can come up with a
> way to fix social security.

The money coming from the person/employee should be divided in three thirds.
One will operate under the old system, the other third will be pooled, and
invested with various mutual funds, etc., and the other will be invested by
each employee in whatever stocks or bonds he prefers. If a person will lose
too much money on his one-third "personal investment", his two-thirds will
still be safe. Overall incomes from social security will be increased. Part
of the federal money from the one-third under the old system will be used to
compensate the victims of fraud (I am not talking about bad investments, or
bad luck, but outright fraud), and so will the income and wealth of the
defrauder. People should be allowed, and encouraged, to place their
"one-third personal" investment in the large "government" pool.

 I'm much more interested in that than in
> this presidents sexual life and whatever obfuscations people would
> like to throw in rhater than deal with fundemental problems.

I do not deal with sex. I deal with campaign contributions from foreign
Communists and former Communists and the related quid pro-quos.


 This is
> from an independent, btw.

So am I, sir.

> You are here making historical claims so I suggest you find the topic
> you are discussing here important. Or admit you haven't the time to
> really make your point clear and give up.

I will choose a middle way.

>
> >> >> > If van Alstine wants to make a fool
> >> >> > of himself, then let him believe in what Hilberg wrote on this issue,
and
> >in
> >> >> > his German documents. He should consult the article by Jean Ancel in
Yad
> >> >> > Vashem Studies, in 1993, and all the other sources, whether ever
quoted
> >by
> >> >> > title by me, in whatever context, or not, at the right page. These
> >sources
> >> >do
> >> >> > not talk about this kind of transfer...
> >> >>
> >> >> Poopy, citing Ancel not citing NG-4817 is not proof that 10,000 Romanian
> >> >> Jews were nor expelled across the Bug River.
> >>
> >> It seems that a source dropping is enough for him. Good MAs can make a
> >> brief synopsis of a source and what makes its claims stand up.
>
> I guess this MA doesn't have that ability.

Or rather the inclination and the time. And why should I make all sorts of
efforts which are not going to be understood by people like you?

> >> [snip]
> >>
> >> >> > > Romanians. That who. What do you call a place where such things are
if
> >not
> >> >> > > a Romanian extermination camp?
> >> >> > >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > They were extermination sites or camps.
> >> >>
> >> >> But previously you denied that Romania had extermination camps! Are you
> >> >> now saying otherwise?
> >> >
> >> >I never denied it.
> >>
> >> Well, it appeared to me that he was denying that Romanians had much to
> >> do with them. Yet above he admits that Romanian officials were
> >> involved. (Sorry I snipped it.) But it is confusing for me.
> >
> >Please read all of my posts, including what I posted today.
>
> I did. Your stoies seem to change like the blowing wind.
>
> [snip -- How we get to Clinton I'll never know]
>
> >I "dig dirt" on Clinton for about ten hours a day, and I get paid for it,
too.
>
> What a total waste of time. That's my opinion. I find the whole thing
> a big yawn. I suspect that soon you'll be paid to investigate Al Gore
> and then we can continue to deviate from pressing issues.

I am open to voting for Al Gore in 2,000.

 Digging up
> dirt is easy but solving the country's problems is hard.

I have experience in suggesting solutions and providing consulting services on
foreign policy issues.

 So you can
> see what the belt way would rather do?




> > I think you are trying to have this one in the wrong group.
> >
> >I think that the discussion was originally in soc.culture.romanian and
> >soc.culture.magyar, before Mark got in.
>
> Blaming Mark for your problems?  Part of the blame falls on you, sir.

Whatever.

> > You
> >> use a lot of sources that are not immediately available to all and
> >> expect many of us to believe you because you drop those sources.
> >
> >People can check all of these things in the future, after ten years, or
> >whatever.
>
> That's not done by people in this group. They are looking for anyway
> to deny any little aspect.

Including both the Holocaust Deniers and Mark.

> > You
> >> want us to beleive them on their merit alone. Well, this isn't the
> >> newsgroup for that.
> >
> >Perhaps, but which one is. I have received a few letters from an ethnic
> >Hungarian who wishes to remain anonymous, and who found my postings very
> >informative.
>
> That's all they might be is informative. Other than that they are just
> opinion. Selective sourcing is very troubling.

He actually believed that the Holocaust did not occur, but my sources
convinced him otherwise. Have you ever converted a Holocaust Denier ? No, you
and Mark would probably just insult and drive them away, and induce them to
join the National Alliance, or whatever.


>
> >> In this group you have to make a very basic
> >
> >You mean, like proving that there were gas chambers at Auschwitz, or other
> >things which have already been proven.
>
> That's one of the things they deny. There was an East German neo-nazi
> who said that they look for intelligent but historically ignorant
> young people who might be accepting to anti-Semetic history and dogma.
> So they might beleive that the gas chambers are made up. The problem
> is that this seems to be a growing European problem among the younger
> generation. Am I wrong?

I live in the U.S., and I think that it is more of a problem in here, but
also a problem in there.

> >and
> >> well substantiated case
> >
> >How many more sources should I have cited ?
>
> Try making a case. Citing sources is like name dropping. I'd be far
> more interested in a small thesis fleshed out rather than a "Because I
> say so! treatment.

I have already said everything that I had to, or wanted to say on this topic.

> >> peice by piece.
> >
> >Did I put ten sources in one place, at the end of the message and say "this
is
> >my bibliography". Did I not go into detail ?
>
> You wouldn't get a passing grade in my class.

I have graded students. Have you ?

> > You aren't here with
> >> historians.
> >
> >Danny Keren is actually quite well informed. Yet I see what you mean. Even
> >Mark has done a great deal of reading about Auschwitz. He knows some things
> >about the camp which I do not know. Yet he does not know for example that the
> >Holocaustologist Oliver Lustig, a university professor in Bucharest in his
> >book BLOOD-BESPOTTED DIARY, (Bucharest: Editura Stiintifica si Enciclopedica,
> >1988), actually more of a history book than a diary, although he was a
> >deportee to Auschwitz, and he does talk about his experiences,
>
> Deniers will say he isn't valid at all. As an MA you MUST know that no
> one source stands alone. It must fit in with other primary sources.
>
> > says that the
> >Jewish deportees from Hungary who were sent to Auschwitz "were taken, at a
> >rate of 70 to 80 per hundred, directly to the gas chambers" immediately upon
> >arrival (p. 295).
>
> This is about what Hoess testified to, isn't it?
> > Although the book uses many sources, many of which I have
> >seen elsewhere, he often does not cite the books and sources which he is
> >using. Most of Lustig's family died in the camps, especially at Auschwitz (p.
> >5-6 and passim).
>
> He doesn't have to. He's a witness. So he is a first hand source. BUT
> his material should be checked out as most anal retentive historians
> tend to do.

Most of his book is made up of secondary sources, with a spicing of
remembrances. I think that the title was poorly translated in English by
others. "Blood-Bespotted History" might have been a more revealing
translation.

> > You are here with people who care about history and can't
> >> stand outright denial of it.
> >
> >You mean to say that there are some people who are very much against
> >Holocaust Denial, i.e., the denial of history, or, should I rather say, of
> >memory. And of course they put everyone who disagrees with them in the
> >"denier" bag, even if it is inappropriate.
>
> "Everyone"? No "they" do not.

I apologize for my rhetoric, but I doubt that I was unfair to Mark.

 Gross generalizations makes for a poor
> argument. Didn't you learn that while you got your MA? Selective
> sourcing that you use is very suspect.

People should be free to take my arguments however they want. I do not feel
obliged to persuade anybody, but just to document my case. And how do I
selectively source (I want to see very many specific examples) ?

 I couldn't get away with it.
>
> >I must also note the fact that my limited time forces me to think little and
> >type fast.
>
> I suffer the same problem. I've been known to take days preparing a
> response. I'll do that if the correspondent actually has the time to
> read and respond in a like manner. Otherwise I won't even take the
> time to spell check.

I do not spell check. I can not save my posting, so I have do everything all
at once.

>
> > This explains some of the deficiencies which my postings might
> >have, but my papers in college and graduate school never had.
>
> Then it is best to say nothing at all. 

No, you are wrong, and I will write a posting in which I will indicate what I
have shown, and Mark has not challenged, has snipped as "whining", etc.

> >>
> >> [snip]
> >>
>
> > >> > but because I had read the book a long
> >> >> > time ago, and because I take poor notes when I do not have to take
good
> >> >> > notes. Finally, I do not own the book. I just made a few photocopies
from
> >> >it.
> >> >>
> >> >> Excuses not accepted. Especially from an alleged "historian" who should
> >> >> have known better.
> >> >
> >> >Are you implying that my M.A. diploma is a fake ?
> >>
> >> Look. Credentials i this group mean nothing. One give credietnials and
> >> gets attacked for them.
> >
> >1. The fact that I have an M.A. in History means that I am trained in the
> >discipline, not that I am a professional historian. I have not published
> >anything.
>
> It's a tough world out there isn't it?  You didn't have to
> write a thesis for the MA? Did you get a teacher's certificate?

I have written one, but I do not teach right now. I have a better job. And I
did write an M.A. thesis, albeit not about the Holocaust. I hope to publish
some of my research in Europe.

> Teacher's I've found don't like to be questioned by students because
> they don't want to look bad.

Teachers and professors.

 Professionals don't mind the questioning

Professionals outside teaching. Brilliant point. I will make it known to
others.


> and limit the scope of their points so that they can discuss minor
> things in concrete ways. Think about that.
>
> Mike Curtis
>
>

For the record, my income is more than $30,000 per year from my regular job
(for privacy reasons, I will not be more specific), and my money from
consulting (currently, dirt-digging) is about $15,000 per year (for about 100
hours of work, even though right now I am working ten days a week). Even so,
I am cheap.

--
George Popovici

Flush twice. It's far away from the White House.


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From gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com Thu Jul 30 18:40:06 EDT 1998
Article: 195030 of alt.revisionism
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From: gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Schindler's List
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 19:38:06 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Lines: 55
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References: <901359434.218706@Chaos.es.co.nz> <1998072512574900.IAA24631@ladder01.news.aol.com> <35ba166b.0@news.rlc.net> <35BA9444.117D@wco.com> <35bb40c7.0@news.rlc.net> <6pluah$p98$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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In article <6pluah$p98$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
  chuckvic@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <35bb40c7.0@news.rlc.net>,
>   georgeh@mail.rlc.net (George F. Hardy) wrote:
> > In article <35BA9444.117D@wco.com>, The General  says:
> >
> > >That scene was authentic because it showed the camp
> > >inmates believing that gas would come out of the shower.
> > >I heard a survior, who spoke at the Museum of Tolerance in
> > >L.A., say that she never knew whether gas or water was going
> > >to come out of the shower. I also read an account of a
> > >survivor at Dachau who thought that the gas came out of the
> > >shower heads.
>
> At Dachau, the showerheads were fake. No connections to water or gas. No
> connections to anything except the wall.
> The Zyklon B crystals were dropped in from the roof. Claims are made that no
> humans were ever gassed at Dachau,

And these claims were made by Martin Broszat and other very legitimate
historians.


 but some were, not thousands, but some
> numbers of humans were murdered at Dachau, by gassing.

I am not going to get bogged down into an argument whether it was so or not,
or to document my views in this thread. Ken McVay neither knows, nor very
much cares about the answer to this issue.


> Chuck Ferree
>
> Be sure to see the re-run of Schindler's List. The German version. They
> pretend like they won. ala cuddles.
>
> >
> > Were they right?
> >
> > GFH
> >
>
> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp   Create Your Own Free Member Forum
>


--
George Popovici

Silence is an answer, but not the answer.
(George Popovici, ancestor of the poster,

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From gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com Thu Jul 30 18:40:06 EDT 1998
Article: 195038 of alt.revisionism
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From: gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Van Alstine, a great Holocaustologist
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 20:33:12 GMT
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References:  <1998072415265800.LAA22582@ladder01.news.aol.com> <6pb0oi$tf9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>  <6pd2ub$fv0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> 
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In article ,
  mvanalst@!spam!home.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
> In article <6pd2ub$fv0$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com
wrote:
>
> > In article ,
> >   mvanalst@!spam!home.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
> > > In article <6pb0oi$tf9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > In article <1998072415265800.LAA22582@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
> > > >   ceacaa@aol.com (Ceacaa) wrote:
> > > > > Here is a question to Mark Van Alstine regarding
> > > > > "burning pits".
> > > > >     Specifically, What is your belief as to the time
> > > > > period(s) Pits were used at Birkenau?  What is
> > > > > Orthodoxy Belief, if different?
> > > > >     As I understand your position, you claim "pits"
> > > > > were used from Sept. 1942 until November 1942
> > > > > and then not until  May-July 1944.
> > > > >  Is this a clear and correct stating of your belief?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Personally, I am a critic of van Alstine.
> > >
> > > Really? I thought Poopy wwre just being a dick.
> >
> > My friends have sometimes told me that I am a pain in the neck. And I like
the
> > term "Poopy".
>
> I thought you might.

Good thinking.

>
> > A "y" was added to a digestive concept which preoccupies van Alstine.
>
> Actually, I thought it was more befitting the shit dribbling down your
chin....

Have you ever seen excrement on my face ?

> > > > It would appear that pits were used even more after July 1944 than in
> > > > May-July 1944, and especially in August.
> > >
> > > The incineration pits behind Krema V and near bunker 2, according to
> > > Sonderkommando Henryk Tauber, were were dug in May 1944. Sonderkommando
> > > Filip Müller also places the construction of the incineration pits behind
> > > Krema V in may 1944. (Cf. Pressac, _Technique_, p.500; Müller, _Eyewitness
> > > Auschwitz_, p.129; Gutman, _Anatomy_, p.553.)
> > >
> > > Given that the incineration pits were built prior to the deportations it
> > > is clear that they were used from the start of Aktion Höss to its end.
> >
> > I have seen testimonies by eyewitnesses which say that they were also used
in
> > August 1944.
>
> Non sequitur, Poopy. Your claim was that the incineration pits were used
> more _after_ July than before July.
>
> > > The deportation of some 437,000 Hungarian Jess to Auschwitz took place
> > > between May 15 to July 9, 1944. According to Veesenmayer some 289,000
> > > Hungarian Jews- two-thirds of the total -had been deported to Auschwitz as
> > > of June 7, 1944.
> >
> > As one can see in my Holocaust in Hungary posting, I do not dispute that.
>
> They why did you claim that the incineration pits were used more after July?

Because of survivor testimonies.

> > > Taking into account that the prisoner population of Auschwitz
> > > increased by only 40,000 prisoners from April 5 to July 12, 1944, and that
> > > their is no evidence that hundreds of thousand Hungarian Jews were
> > > transported _from_ Auschwitz during this period, it can be concluded that
> > > 397,000 Hungarian Jews perished between May 15 and July 9, 1944. (Cf.
> > > Gutman, _Anatomy_, pp.465-466; Czech, _Auschwitz Chronicle_, pp.606,664.)
> >
> > Some were killed later.
>
> Yes. Tens of thousands were killed later. The gassings didn't stop until
> November 1943.
1944.

 That, however, doesn't change the fact that more than
> 300,000 people were killed between May and July,1944. Can you show that
> more than 300,000 people were killed at Auschwitz between July and
> November, 1944?

No, and I never claimed that.

>
> > > Thus, given that only about 40,000 out of 437,000 Hungarian Jews deported
> > > to Auschwitz survived past July 12, 1944, it is self-evident the vast
> > > majority of Hungarian Jews, counter to Poopy's claim, were disposed of in
> > > the incineration pits bewteen May and July of 1944.
> >
> > First of all, my point was that many Jews were burned in the incineration
> > pits as opposed to the crematoria.
>
> That's not how I read it. I took your meaning as the incinerationd were
> used more after July than before July.
>
I am not a great expert on the techniques of killing at Auschwitz. I have not
read enough on them.


> > Van Alstine even admits that they represented the majority.
>
> Of course! I have "admitted" this for several years now... Moreover, that
> was not a point of conetention. Yoyr claim that the incineration pits saw
> more use after July 1944 is.
>
> > > > Most Hungarian Jews sent to Auschwitz who died there, or at least a
large
> > > > minority of them, died in the pits. The gassing and cremation facilities
> > > > were insufficient.
> > >
> > > According to Piper, estimates of the Kremas' incineration capacity was
> > > between 7,000 to 8,000 coprses per day and the incineration pits 10,000
> > > per day. (Cf. Gutman, _Anatomy_, pp.166,173,180 note 55.)
> >
> > I do not dispute this, but in his posting on the Holocaust in Hungary, he
> > said that 12,000 Hungarian Jews were shipped to Auschwitz every day, or
> > something like that. Moreover, some other Jews were coming from elsewhere
> > (e.g., Italy).
>
> Lodz, Salonika, Corfu....
>
Athens, etc.


> > It would have been impossible to dispose of all of them in the
> > crematoria.
>
> Like this is new? This has been known for decades.
>
> That was my point, even if Van Alstine chose to misinterpret it.
>
> My apologies then.



 From your poorly constructed text it sure looked like
> you were claiming that the incineration pits were used more after July
> than they were before July.

I was wrong because my sources, who are Holocaust survivors, were wrong. They
probably confused July with August 1944, etc. Mea culpa.

>
> > > > Some experiments, whose results are still classified, or,
> > > > should I say, suppressed, which were conducted by the U.S. government
> > > > The results were of course confiscated by one of the
> > > > agencies of the U.S. government on some sort of technicality....
> > >
> > > If these results of these alleged experiments are still classified how
> > > does Poopy know the results? Citations?
> >
> > See my answer to Danny Keren. I can not prove my point, and I have given a
> > longer explanation in there.
>
> Unsupported appeals to authority are not accepted.
>
> > > > ...indicate that in a test on monkeys who were subjected to gassing by
> > > > Zyklon B within the technical specifications suggested by standard
> > > > Holocaust scholarship during the 1970's, and, although I could be wrong,
> > > > even now, only about half died.
> > >
> > > According to the _A FOA Briefing Book on Chemical Weapons_, when HCN is
> > > inhaled at a concentration of 300 mg/m3 it is "immediately lethal" -i.e.
> > > 100 percent fatal.* According to Pressac, on March 13, 1943, 6 kg of
> > > Zyklon B was used to gas 1,492 Jews from the Krakow ghetto at Krema II.
> >
> > The technical specifications provided by Holocaust scholars in the 1970's
were
> > different. Pressac published his book in 1989.
>
> So? Are you stuck in the 70's or something? Get with the program.
>
> > > Given that L.Keller 1 had a volume of approximately 504 cu m, and that 1
> > > kg of Zyklon held some 660g of prussic acid, it would mean that nearly 4
> > > kg of HCN was dispersed into L.Keller 1 at a concentration of almost 7.86
> > > g cu m. According to NI-9912 it was advised that the disinfestation of
> > > "bugs, lice, fleas, etc" should be carried out with a concentration of 8 g
> > > cu m. of prussic acid.
> >
> > That's interesting.
>
> I thought so too.
>
> > Holocaust scholars always say that the number of grams per cubic meter used
> > for gassing insects was much larger than the one for gassing
> > people.
>
> Historians don't always get the esoteric details right. That's why a lot
> of historical revisionism deals with details. Also, delousings took up to
> as much as 16 g cu m. It depended on the type insect.
>
> > You have shown that it was pretty much the same. Thank you for you
> > helpful clarification.
>
> My pleasure.
>
> >  That the SS would use a concentration of Zyklon B
> > > more appropriate for killing insects makes sense, as the SS personnel who
> > > handled the Zyklon B were orginally trained as disinfestors by Tesch &
> > > Stabenow. (Cf. Gutman, _Anatomy_, pp.166,232;  Kogon, Nazi Mass Murder_,
> > > p.206; Pressac, _Technique_, p.19; Höss, _Death Dealer_, p.30.)
> > >
> > > *See: http://www.opcw.nl/chemhaz/hcn.htm
> > >
> > > In short, this corrosponds to an HCN concentration in the homicidal gas
> > > chambers  that is about _twenty-six times greater_ than the "immediately
> > > lethal" concentration stated in _A FOA Briefing Book on Chemical Weapons_.
> > >
> > > The lethality of Zyklon B is related by Höss, who describes a gassing at
> > > Krema II (or III):
> >
> > Is it not possible that the experiment was suppressed because it was poorly
> > conducted ?
>
> The experiment you claim took place? It also also possible that your
> alleged experiment never took place.

This is possible. Some people who knew a lot about Auschwitz from books
might have made it up in order to impress me that they are insiders, so that
they would get material on other topics from me (dirt on Clinton, information
about Romania, etc.).


 That is why a verifiable citation for
> the experiment is required. I mean, seriously, would you, as a historian,
> accept unverified hearsay as historical fact? Is this what you were
> trained to do?

Am I supposed to cover up what I have been told just because I can't prove
that my sources were accurate on this topic ?

> [snip]
>
> > > The remainder staggered about and began to scream and struggle for air.
The
> > > screaming, however, soon changed to gasping and in a few moments everyone
> > > lay still.[...]
> >
> > I read that the whole thing took something like half an hour. Am I making a
> > confusion ?
>
> Quite possibly. If by "the whole thing" you mean the time from when the
> door was screwed shut until it was opened again, then yes, that was bout a
> half hour or so. If you mean the time it took to kill the victims, then
> no. That happened quite fast. Some died immediately and the rest died
> within minutes of the Zyklon B being dropped in the gas chamber. Höss, as
> well as other eyewirnesses, talk about this. It seems odd that this is
> news to you. One would think that this is pretty basic stuff.
>
> > > 
> > >
> > > Source: Ho"ss, _Death Dealer_, p.44.
> > >
> > > > ...I do believe that Holocaustological scholarship is right that there
> > > > were gassings at Auschwitz, Treblinka, Majdanek, Sobibor, Belzec and
> > > > Chelmno, but the details are wrong.
> > >
> > > What Poopy _believes_, as demonstrated above, is of no consequence.
> > > Perhaps Poopy, instead of catering to his beliefs, would care to offer
> > > substantial evidence?
> >
> > See above. I might respond to this later. I have read a few things from
> > legitimate scholars (i.e., not Holocaust Deniers) which would support my
> > views.
>
> Well, until you do support your claims in detail, there is no reason to
> take them seriously.

See the evolution of my argument in subsequent postings.

> > > > A look at how many Jews were gassed at Majdanek, 50,000 or
> > > > whatever, and at the size of the killing facilities, etc. does give a
good
> > > > picture of what really happened at Auschwitz.
> > >
> > > No, it does not. Poopy has to offer nothing more than his unsubstantiated
> > > beliefs in claiming so.
> >
> > As I clarified in my answer to Danny Keren, I accept that 50,000 Jews died,
or
> > were gassed, at Majdanek.
>
> Given that about 260,000 of the 360,000 people who died at Madjanek were
> Jews, and that the vast majority of those gassed were Jews, this may be a
> bit low. (Cf. USHMM, _Historical Atlas of the Holocaust_, p.102.)

Wolfgang Benz (source and page cited in Holocaust in Hungary) said that
60-80,000 Jews died at Majdanek.

> > > > It was technically impossible to gas so many people.
> >
> > I think that Reitlinger says that 700,000 Jews died at Auschwitz,
> > overwhelmingly in the gas chambers.
>
> According to Reitlinger:
>
> 
>
> Of this total [840,800], 550,000 to 600,000 may have been gassed on
> arrival and to this must be added the unkown portion of the 300,000 or
> more, missing from the camp, who were 'selected.'
>
> 
>
> Source: Reitlinger, _The Final Solution_, p.461.
>
> However, Reitlinger's estimates need to be considered in light of Piper's
> more recent research:
>
> 
>
> ...Thus the estimate presented by this author differ from figures cited by
> Reitlinger by about 250,000, a difference attributable to Reitlinger's
> underestimating the number of Polish (200,000) and Hungarian (380,000)
> Jews deported to the camp. These two figures alone resulted in
> Reitlinger's underestimating the total number of Jews deported by 158,000.
> The remaining 90,000 can be accounted for in the underestimation of
> deportees from other countries from several thousand to over 10,000. For
> example, Reitlinger underestimated the number of French Jews by 14,000 and
> Greek Jews by 10,000.
>
> 
>
> Source: Gutman, _Anatomy_, pp.68-69.
>
> > > And Poopy's proof of this is? An alleged classified experiment on monkeys?
> > >
> > I will post the documents later.
>
> Well, until you do so, there is no reason to take them your claims
> regarding it seriously.

And if I choose to do.


> > > Get real.
> >
> > > > No experiments with Diesel engines or whatever were conducted...
> > >
> > I meant to say that the U.S. government seems not to have conducted an
> > experiment on monkeys with Diesel engines, because that would not have been
> > necessary. We all know that they can kill people. Moreover, Gerstein
provided
> > some very useful testimony about Belzec.
>
> OK.
>
> > > By whom? The Nazis?
> > >
> > > > ...but Venona, a mechanism of the O.S.S. for intercepting radio
> > > > transmissions seems to indicate that in the case of a number of
> (typical ?)
> > > > transports of Jews who were sent to the Operation Reinhard camps, most
> > > > deportees died on the way.
> > >
> > > Citation?
> >
> > I can not prove that Venona intercepted communications such as these.
>
> Then why refer to them?

Venona existed, Nazi transmissions were intercepted, historians talk about
these  things, and in a few years they might cite them.


> > However, one should check out Reitlinger. "There were days when something
> > like 10,000 people left the assembly point in Warsaw, presumbably for
> > Treblinka. Therefore a large porportion must have died in the trains. The
> > witnesses, Wiernik and Rajzman, travelled from Warsaw under just bearable
> > conditions, eighty to a box car. This must have been exceptional, since both
> > men saw trains arriving from places less than a hundred miles away, trains
in
> > which 80 to 90 per cent of the passengers had already died." See Gerald
> > Reitlinger, THE FINAL SOLUTION: THE ATTEMPT TO EXTERMINATE THE JEWS OF
EUROPE
> > 1939-1945, (New York: A.S. Barnes & Company, Inc., 1961), p. 141-142. Dr.
> > Daniel Keren accepted my argumentation on this issue (see his posting).
>
> And Reilinger's comment that "This must have been exceptional" doesn't
> raise any flags with you?

See what Keren says. You should also keep in mind that Reitlinger means that
there were typically more than 80 Jews per wagon.

>
> > > > The feasibility of such a scenario is suggested by
> > > > the death trains associated with the so-called Iasi pogrom in Romania in
> > > > June-July 1941, where most of the Jews who were being shipped away from
> > > > Iasi died on the trains.
> > >
> > > Poopy is leaping to conclusions here. Moreover, in doing so Poopy ignores
> > > the body of eyewitness, documentary, and physical evidence that
> > > contradicts him.
> >
> > I have done extensive reading only on the Holocaust in Romania and Hungary.
>
> Amazing, then, how you seemed to have overlooked the extensive literature
> that describes the hundreds of thousands of Jews gassed on arrival at
> Auschwitz.

I have read, or skimmed through, only part of the literature on Auschwitz.


>
> > It would seem that I know more about that topic than Van Alstine.
>
> Uh huh. So you claim. Yet, for example, Höss's memoirs appears to be a
> complete suprise to you.
>
> [snip]

I made my argument for the Reinhard Operation Camps.


> > Van Alstine seems to be right for Auschwitz. My argument is better supported
> > by the evidence from Treblinka.
>
> And Reilinger's comment that "This must have been exceptional" doesn't
> raise any flags with you?

See above.

> > >  Moreover, in doing so Poopy ignores the body of eyewitness, documentary,
> > > and physical evidence that contradicts him. In doing so Poopy is simply
> > >  knocking down a strawman of his own devising.
> > >
> > > > Reitlinger does talk a little about occurrences where most Jews on the
> > > > trains sent to Treblinka, etc., died.
> > >
> > > Citation?
> >
> > See above.
>
> And Reilinger's comment that "This must have been exceptional" doesn't
> raise any flags with you?

See above.

>
> > > > The evidence would suggest that the number of
> > > > Jews who died in the six camps which seem to have had gas chambers, the
> > > > number of Jews killed was only slightly larger than the number killed by
> > > > the Einsatzgruppen.
> > >
> > > According to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum , the death tolls
> > > at the extermination camps were:
> > >
> > > Auschwitz ................................ 1,100,000
> > > Belzec ................................ ..   600,000
> > > Chelmno ..................................   320,000
> > > Majdanek..................................   360,000
> > > Sobibor ..................................   250,000
> > > Treblinka .................................  700-850,000
> > >
> > >                              Total ....... 3,330,000 to 3,480,000
> > >
> > > Cf. USHMM, _Hostorical Atlas of the Holocaust_, pp. 86,89,92,97,102.
> >
> > I am going to deal with the numbers later. However, Die Institut fur
> > Zeitgeschichte in Munnich has different numbers. I think that the Cybrary of
> > the Holocaust or something like this has them.
>
> IOW, you're punting.

See my other, newer postings.


>
> > > That's over half the Jewish death toll in the Holocaust.
> >
> > It would be if Van Alstine were right.
>
> You haven't remotely proved otherwise.

See my other postings.


>
> > > > Jean-Marie Le Pen said that the gas chambers at Auschwitz
> > > > were a detail of history.
> > >
> > > How trite of Le Pen to dismiss the murder of 1.1. million people as a
> > > "detail of history."
> >
> > On p. 500, Reitlinger says that "Auschwitz, in spite of its immense
siymbolic
> > significanc, probably contributed less than a fifth of the victims (see
pages
> > 460-461). In talking about Auschwitz, on p. 461, he says, "Of this total,
> > 550,000 to 600,000 may have been gassed on arrival and to this must be added
> > the unknown portion of the 300,000 or more, missing from the camp, who were
> > 'selected' [for the gas chamber]. On p. 501, he gives the summary of the
Jews
> > who died during the Holocaust (4,194,200 to 4,581,200).
>
> See Piper's comments above. Aside from this, you are backpedalling away
> from your claim above which is in regard to _all_ the extermination camps.

My aim was to introduce some new evidence, which is still classified. If
anything from it is going to be accepted as probably, or partly right, that's
a victory for me.


> In _all_ the extermination camps over half the Jews killed in the
> Holocaust are accounted for. That you try and deflect from this by citing
> Auschwitz alone is pretty lame.

That's funny. We are suspicious, and read between the lines, don't we ?
>
> > > > They were statistically less significant than we
> > > > might think.
> > >
> > > How "statistically less significant" does Poopy think the murder of over a
> > > million people at Auschwitz is?
> >
> > I do not accept the one million figure.
>
> Deniers generally don't.

Oh, boy.

>
> > > > Perhaps only slightly more than 1.5 million, and perhaps only
> > > > slightly more than a million, Jews died in the above-mentioned six
camps.
> > >
> > > Because you say so? Perhaps Poopy is full of poop.
> > >
> > Perhaps I am.
>
> Sure looks that way.
>
> > > >  ...I would like to say this about what I have written: take it, or
leave
> > it.
> > >
> > > I'll leave it.
> >
> > Good for Mr. Van Alstine. We do not need to be bothered by complexities, do
> > we ?
>
> You sure don't seem to be, Poopy.

A statement of opinion, not of fact.


 Rather shcoking for one who claims to
> have a M.A. in history, don't you think?
>
> > > It's the usual pile of denier crap.
>
> > Finally, I am called a Holocaust Denier.
>
> Bet you're so proud now, eh? You working so hard at it and all...

I am not a Holocaust Denier.

>
> "Brilliant" analysis.
>
> Indeed. Thanks.
>
> > How many Jews did I say died in the Holocaust in my posting ?

Read my postings carefully.

> How many times did you deny the accepted death at Auschwitz?
>
It is, of course, true that Hilberg's and Piper's numbers are very similar,
though, of course, not identical in all details.

> How many times did you deny that Romania had extermination camps?

Never.

> How many times have you declined to support your claims?


> > Why did you erase it ?
> > So that you can call me a Holocaust Denier ?
>
> Nah. Denial takes many forms. Some greater some lessr. Like, for example,
> denying the accepted Auschwitz death without suffcient cause.
>
> > I think that your aim  is not debate, but censorship.
>
> Poor Poopy, when his mendacity is exposed he cries "censorship." Pathetic.
>
> > And by the way, what is Mark's ethnic background ? Dutch ?
>
> Dutch and German. Though I consider it, given that my family has been in
> the United States since before the Revolutionary War, to be American.
>

Good for you. Thank you for the info. I was just curious.

> Mark
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line seperating good and evil
passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political
parties--but right through every human heart--and all human hearts."
>
> -- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>


--
George Popovici

Silence is an answer, but not the answer.
(George Popovici, ancestor of the poster,

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From gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com Thu Jul 30 18:40:07 EDT 1998
Article: 195061 of alt.revisionism
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From: gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.romania,soc.culture.magyar,soc.culture.polish
Subject: Re: What Occupies Van Alstine's Mind - Dicks, Pricks & Penises - His Words!
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 21:34:12 GMT
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In article <35be508a.8559641@news.srv.ualberta.ca>,
  John.Morris@x-nospam-x.UAlberta.CA wrote:
> In <6pl9pc$md6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, on Tue, 28 Jul 1998 19:45:48
> GMT, gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> >In article ,
> >  Laura Finsten  wrote:
>
> >> On Fri, 24 Jul 1998, Tim Starr wrote:
>
> [re: Mark Van Alstine]
>
> >> > All you've proven is that you evidently consider anyone who dares to
disagree
> >> > with you to be a legitimate target for the worst kind of lies.  That
makes you
> >> > an extremely vile human being, as bad as the neo-Nazis who both deny the
> >> > Holocaust & claim that Jews perpetrated a Holocaust upon Germans.
>
> >> 
>
> >> Now Tim.  If you were _really_ on the side of the greater good,
>
> >What greater good ? Censorship, intimidation, terror ?
>
> Do you not know what the phrase "tongue-in-cheek" means? It means that
> the speaker is being broadly ironical.
>
> I appreciate your sensitivity to Van Alstine's promiscuous use of
> insulting labels, but my sense of Finsten's response is that it is
> gently critical.
>
> --
>  John Morris                                
>  at University of Alberta  
>
Dear Sir:

You might be right, but I would invite you to read Mark's criticisms against
me, many of which he subsequently had to retract, because they had no base in
fact even in his own mind, in threads such as "Holocaust in Hungary". It
would appear that Finsten is in favor of Political Correctness, while I am in
favor of "Political Truth", which I define as the corrective, constructive,
fair, accurate, sensible and truthful replic to Political Correctness. --
George Popovici

Silence is an answer, but not the answer.

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From gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com Thu Jul 30 18:40:07 EDT 1998
Article: 195195 of alt.revisionism
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From: gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,alt.nswpp
Subject: Re: Aryan Nations March Needless Farce?
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 21:19:38 GMT
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In article ,
  mvanalst@!spam!home.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
> In article ,
> ORACII@aol.com (ORAC) wrote:

When Mark van Alstine was a student, he was asked, "What language was
originally used at the opening of the first British Parliament ?" His answer
was "Yiddish".



> > In article <6ovh0l$h7v$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> > fuckthefearofideas@fuck-the-skull-of-jesus.mit.edu wrote:
> >
> > >> > But what else could one reasonably expect from semi-organized trailer
> > >> > trash of minimal intelligence and lesser morals?  It isn't exactly
> > >> > life's big winners who join any of these White Power Ranger
> > >> > organizations.
> > >
> > >Why would one object to National Socialism while spewing racist
> > >generalizations at them?
> >
> > Pot. Kettle. Black. National Socialists are constantly spewing the most
> > vile racist generalizations about Jews, blacks, and other races that they
> > wish to "separate" from. It seems rather strange that you would accuse
> > someone else of doing so.
> >
> >
> > >Does this mean that you are only a racist - from a
> > >competing race?
> >
> > Again, how so? Since you didn't keep all the quotes in the thread intact,
> > I don't know who wrote the original comment to which you are responding.
> > So I'll have to ask you: Which "competing race"?
>
> The "races" with higher sperm counts than "Aryans?" (Of course, that would
> mean _all_ other "races"...)
>
> > >Let's drop the pretense of moral superiority here and analyze
> > >what your post contains: nothing but insinuation.
> >
> > Actually, his comment ("semi-organized trailer trash of minimal
> > intelligence") sounded right on when describing the pathetic rabble that
> > calls itself the "Aryan Nations."
>
> He forgot "impotent."
>
> > >Calling someone a bottom-feeder when you follow his every motion with
> > >stirrings of your own impotent hatred doesn't make you superior, only more
> > >degraded.  And that you enjoy it skewers you further with your own
petard...
> >
> > Then why are white nationalists and National Socialists so anxious to rail
> > their anger and hatred at the Jews for alleged "crimes" that exist only in
> > the fevered imaginings of ant-Semitic white racists?
>
> Low sperm count?
>
> Mark
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line seperating good and evil
passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political
parties--but right through every human heart--and all human hearts."
>
> -- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>


--
George Popovici

Silence is an answer, but not the answer.

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From: gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.magyar,soc.culture.romanian,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.israel
Subject: Re: (2) Re: Holocaust in Hungary (I): (...)
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In article <35bf83ad.185551031@news.sig.net>,
  mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:
> gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> >In article <35bf267b.161689662@news.sig.net>,
> >  mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:
> >> gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >>
> >> >In article <35bccc28.7470962@news.sig.net>,
> >> >  mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:
> >> >> gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >> >
> >> >I must apologize for the brevit of my answer.
> >
> >Again, the same.
> >
> >> >
> >> >> >> > 3. No Holocaust historian specializing in Romania, neither Radu
> >Ioanid,
> >> >nor
> >> >> >> > Jean Ancel, nor Julius Fisher, nor Th. Lavi, nor Lya Benjamin, nor
> >> >anybody
> >> >> >> > else, has used the above mentioned document, or talked about the
> >10,000
> >> >Jews
> >> >> >> > sent over the Bug and back again.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Gee, sounds like a small oversight on their part.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >I do not share your opinion.
> >> >>
> >> >> Tell me why if you won't tell Mark. I have read you letter to him in
> >> >> June. In fact I can't find an answer to why anywhere in this thread.
> >> >
> >> >Because there is no documentary evidence, from Romanian sources, for his
> >view.
> >>
> >> It's not _his_ view but the presentations of other historians who are
> >> not excluding evidence that _isn't_ from Romanian sources. So I must
> >> suggest based on your tunnel vision that you might have to seek other
> >> sources in order to find out what might be missing.
> >
> >I will contact the U.S.H.M.M., which has 800,000 documents from the archives
> >of Romania, the Republic of Moldova, and Ukraine (source: an e-mail from Radu
> >Ioanid to me) concerning the genocide against Jews in the areas controlled by
> >Romania. Yet if my theory will be supported by them, then you will say "how
> >about the Russian archives. Russia did not hand over the relevant documents
> >to the U.S.H.M.M." And you would be right. I think that probably, and I
> >emphasize probably, Mark and Hilberg are wrong, and I, and all the
> >specialists on the Holocaust in Romania, are right. After a number of years,
> >we might know for sure.
>
> I don't think you understand. I don't know if the USHMM is the last
> word about Holocaust history either. I think it depends upon the
> integrity of the historian and how he wants his peers to view the
> thoroughness of his work.
>
> Example: I'm researching an American Revolutionary War Battle. Should
> I exclude hessian documents because *I* think they are "wrong" but I
> can't present a valid reason why they are wrong? I think I include
> Colonial American, Hessian, German, French, Indian, and English
> sources as completely as I can. That's my point. Calling Hilberg or
> Mark wrong doesn't cut it on your say so alone.

Ok, so neither I nor Mark can prove our cases. Satisfied ?


>
> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > Rabbi Fisher in fact even criticized
> >> >> >> > Reitlinger for being wrong in using it.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Why?
> >> >>
> >> >> >Read the sources mentioned by me in this and other postings.
> >> >>
> >> >> Humor _me_. Tell _me_ why in answer this post. I'll be happy to
> >> >> consider the why.
> >> >
> >> >Because Reitlinger implied that some of these Jews were shipped back to
> >> >Odessa,
> >>
> >> Did he _imply it or did he support it with a document? I think you are
> >> being devious here in your use of words.
> >
> >Reitlinger used a document, and I was not devious, but careless.
>
> That's my point. You can correct your carelessness when called on to
> validate your view. By saying you are careless now doesn't validate
> your view. It simply admits you are careless. Whether that is good or
> not is moot.  So if he used a document was it valid. If true then you
> say why. If not then you say why.
>
> >>
> >> > and all, or some, of them remained, or survived, in the city. They
> >>
> >> Some of them remained? What happened to the others not included in
> >> "some of them?"
> >>
> >
> >None were sent, in my opinion.
>
> Now it is none rather than some? I'm confused.
>
> >> >did not, nor where they shipped east of the Bug, then back again, and then
to
> >> >Odessa.
> >>
> >> I only hope we are all talking about the same thing happening at the
> >> same date. This discussion is so disorganized that it is very hard to
> >> tell.
> >
> >It is a fact than in November 1941, Romania shipped a number of Jews over the
> >Bug, to the German area, where they were all killed. I have mentioned that in
> >a previous posting. Could the German documents be accurate, but
> >chronologically misleading?
>
> We know this event happened. This one is a positive.

True.

 And it is based
> on what particular documents?

See some of the sources cited by me in previous postings, such as the work by
Ancel. I have not seen any Romanian wartime documents on this issue, because
they have been discovered very recently. Ancel names them in the footnotes,
and quotes a little bit from them.


>
> > Perhaps, within the context that everything
> >would have taken place in November 1941, and that 10,000 is an approximation
> >for the real number, and should be understood as meaning "more than 5,000".
> >Perhaps the Germans liquidated 10,000 Jews, one or more thousand of which had
> >been sent from Transnistria. Another possibility might be that the Germans
> >got confused. Some cities have two parts (such as Golta-Pervomaisk) one on
> >one side of the Bug, and the other, on the other.
>
> These words presenting other possibles and maybes are what Mark is
> trying to understand. In history, maybes and possibles are more
> footnotes than anything else. they are opinions and should be
> presented as such. One opinion is as good as another when so much
> seems so unsure. Does this mak any sense?

Yes, it does.

> >> >>
> >> >> >> > I am not going to prove that I am right.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Because you cannot prove that you are right.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >I have only a few more days of vacation, and I am not going to answer
> >every
> >> >> >comment.
> >> >>
> >> >> It seems to be an important point. You were conserned with how others
> >> >> read your postings and replies right?
> >> >>
> >> >No, I am simply very busy. I have a job and a quarter (a regular job, plus
> >> >dirt-digging on Clinton et al.)
> >>
> >> Let the power hungry in Washington dirt dig. They don't need amatuers
> >> like you digging up nonsense.
> >
> >1. I am trained in research.
>
> The research in my humble opinion is not constructive to any national
> positive. The research will go on ad nauseum no matter who is in
> office. It will not stop. Is is easy to do. It doesn't matter how you
> are trained. It isn't a reflection on you. It is a reflection on the
> state of this country's politics and its willingness to make hard
> choices and take leadership roles.

True.

>
> >2. It is not nonsense, but I will deal with all of these issues later.
>
> > While your at it you can come up with a
> >> way to fix social security.
> >
> >The money coming from the person/employee should be divided in three thirds.
> >One will operate under the old system, the other third will be pooled, and
> >invested with various mutual funds, etc., and the other will be invested by
> >each employee in whatever stocks or bonds he prefers. If a person will lose
> >too much money on his one-third "personal investment", his two-thirds will
> >still be safe. Overall incomes from social security will be increased. Part
> >of the federal money from the one-third under the old system will be used to
> >compensate the victims of fraud (I am not talking about bad investments, or
> >bad luck, but outright fraud), and so will the income and wealth of the
> >defrauder. People should be allowed, and encouraged, to place their
> >"one-third personal" investment in the large "government" pool.
>
> Sounds like a workable idea. Now what's wrong with Congress in all
> this? Oh yeah, they want to get elected. So to hell with your idea
> lets pick on the ruling party. That's a lot easier. My thoughts are
> along the same line but I fingure if I run for office dirt on me will
> be far more important than any ideas I might have.
>
I have collected dirt only on Clinton.

> > I'm much more interested in that than in
> >> this presidents sexual life and whatever obfuscations people would
> >> like to throw in rhater than deal with fundemental problems.
> >
> >I do not deal with sex. I deal with campaign contributions from foreign
> >Communists and former Communists and the related quid pro-quos.
>
> There are no such things as communists. (There may be a few dreamers
> left who really closer to being socialists.) There never has been a
> communist. There have been no Capital C communists except possibly for
> Mr. Hershey in the 1920s. No Country has ever come even remotely close
> to the vision of Marx or Engles and they never will.
>
> Secondly, Campaign Contributions isn't only a democratic party problem
> but a national problem. Yet you call it digging dirt up on Clinton.
> Very interesting.

The money from Hong Kong which went into R.N.C. coffers (the Barbour money)
was also from the P.R.C.


>
> [snip]
>
> >> >> It seems that a source dropping is enough for him. Good MAs can make a
> >> >> brief synopsis of a source and what makes its claims stand up.
> >>
> >> I guess this MA doesn't have that ability.
> >
> >Or rather the inclination and the time. And why should I make all sorts of
> >efforts which are not going to be understood by people like you?
>
> You assume I won't take the time and understand? How convenient for
> you. I see you are ready to jump all over me now?
>
> [snip]
>
> >> >I "dig dirt" on Clinton for about ten hours a day, and I get paid for it,
> >too.
> >>
> >> What a total waste of time. That's my opinion. I find the whole thing
> >> a big yawn. I suspect that soon you'll be paid to investigate Al Gore
> >> and then we can continue to deviate from pressing issues.
> >
> >I am open to voting for Al Gore in 2,000.
>
> Horrors. I don't see anyone I'd like to vote for in 2000.

I do not know for whom I will vote for.

> I see people I might be forced to vote for in 2000. I don't see any
> statesmen or leaders out there. Most of them want to stay out. It's
> much healthier and financially rewarding to stay out of politics and
> let those with very little life experience run for office.
>
> > Digging up
> >> dirt is easy but solving the country's problems is hard.
> >
> >I have experience in suggesting solutions and providing consulting services
on
> >foreign policy issues.
>
> So it isn't totally a Clinton thing. You were just spouting off?
>

I voted for Ross Perot in 1996 because I liked neither Clinton nor Dole. It
was a protest vote. I voted for a Republican for the House, and for a
Democrat for the Senate.

> >> So you can
> >> see what the belt way would rather do?
>
> I think you really do understand right?
>
> >> > I think you are trying to have this one in the wrong group.
> >> >
> >> >I think that the discussion was originally in soc.culture.romanian and
> >> >soc.culture.magyar, before Mark got in.
> >>
> >> Blaming Mark for your problems?  Part of the blame falls on you, sir.
> >
> >Whatever.
>
> Nice cop-out.
>
> >> > You
> >> >> use a lot of sources that are not immediately available to all and
> >> >> expect many of us to believe you because you drop those sources.
> >> >
> >> >People can check all of these things in the future, after ten years, or
> >> >whatever.
> >>
> >> That's not done by people in this group. They are looking for anyway
> >> to deny any little aspect.
> >
> >Including both the Holocaust Deniers and Mark.
>
> I know Mark personally. Not on a day to day basis but from a brief
> meeting. He's very tough when people evade and make excuses. Yes, part
> of the blame falls on you.

Let's say that it does, although I am not certain about the details. Mea
Culpa.

 I've been trying to understand but you
> haven't been very helpful.
>
> >> > You
> >> >> want us to beleive them on their merit alone. Well, this isn't the
> >> >> newsgroup for that.
> >> >
> >> >Perhaps, but which one is. I have received a few letters from an ethnic
> >> >Hungarian who wishes to remain anonymous, and who found my postings very
> >> >informative.
> >>
> >> That's all they might be is informative. Other than that they are just
> >> opinion. Selective sourcing is very troubling.
> >
> >He actually believed that the Holocaust did not occur, but my sources
> >convinced him otherwise. Have you ever converted a Holocaust Denier ? No, you
>
> Me? Not a chance. They aren't convertable. Something that isn't
> historical in nature will change them. They'll meet someone who will
> influence them profoundly. I also think you are being unfair. No one
> here is trying to convert anyone because we have found that that is a
> frutiless goal. I've been at it for 4 years now and I've only seen 2
> "convert." And it wasn't really as a result of anything happening
> here.

Perhaps I am unfair, but my sources did convince the guy, who would prefer to
remain anonymous, because his views are now similar to mine, and if he will
post something, Mark will bring up his "denier past".

>
> >and Mark would probably just insult and drive them away, and induce them to
> >join the National Alliance, or whatever.
>
> I guess if you want to dismiss me so quickly (and I haven't a clue
> what I've done to deserve this kind of treatment) then I guess that's
> the easy thing for you to do. I haven't called you a single name that
> I can recall. I haven't called you a denier even once. Yet here you
> are making suggestions about my tactics. What's up with that?

Have I insulted you ?

> >>
> >> >> In this group you have to make a very basic
> >> >
> >> >You mean, like proving that there were gas chambers at Auschwitz, or other
> >> >things which have already been proven.
> >>
> >> That's one of the things they deny. There was an East German neo-nazi
> >> who said that they look for intelligent but historically ignorant
> >> young people who might be accepting to anti-Semetic history and dogma.
> >> So they might beleive that the gas chambers are made up. The problem
> >> is that this seems to be a growing European problem among the younger
> >> generation. Am I wrong?
> >
> >I live in the U.S., and I think that it is more of a problem in here, but
> >also a problem in there.
>
> I see it differently. We are far more open for speech. Yet Germany
> tends to send a lot of this into the underground where it can't be
> seen. So it can thrive that way. It doesn't get exposed that way. I
> see that as far more dangerous than openly discussing it.

Very true.

> [snip]
>
> >> >> peice by piece.
> >> >
> >> >Did I put ten sources in one place, at the end of the message and say
"this
> >is
> >> >my bibliography". Did I not go into detail ?
> >>
> >> You wouldn't get a passing grade in my class.
> >
> >I have graded students. Have you ?
>
> That is a non sequitor.
>
> >> > You aren't here with
> >> >> historians.
> >> >
> >> >Danny Keren is actually quite well informed. Yet I see what you mean. Even
> >> >Mark has done a great deal of reading about Auschwitz. He knows some
things
> >> >about the camp which I do not know. Yet he does not know for example that
the
> >> >Holocaustologist Oliver Lustig, a university professor in Bucharest in his
> >> >book BLOOD-BESPOTTED DIARY, (Bucharest: Editura Stiintifica si
Enciclopedica,
> >> >1988), actually more of a history book than a diary, although he was a
> >> >deportee to Auschwitz, and he does talk about his experiences,
> >>
> >> Deniers will say he isn't valid at all. As an MA you MUST know that no
> >> one source stands alone. It must fit in with other primary sources.
>
> No comment?

I use very many primary and secondary sources which corroborate with each
other.

>
> >> > says that the
> >> >Jewish deportees from Hungary who were sent to Auschwitz "were taken, at a
> >> >rate of 70 to 80 per hundred, directly to the gas chambers" immediately
upon
> >> >arrival (p. 295).
> >>
> >> This is about what Hoess testified to, isn't it?
> >> > Although the book uses many sources, many of which I have
> >> >seen elsewhere, he often does not cite the books and sources which he is
> >> >using. Most of Lustig's family died in the camps, especially at Auschwitz
(p.
> >> >5-6 and passim).
> >>
> >> He doesn't have to. He's a witness. So he is a first hand source. BUT
> >> his material should be checked out as most anal retentive historians
> >> tend to do.
> >
> >Most of his book is made up of secondary sources, with a spicing of
> >remembrances. I think that the title was poorly translated in English by
> >others. "Blood-Bespotted History" might have been a more revealing
> >translation.
>
> Then it is of vlaue on that basis only.
>
> >> > You are here with people who care about history and can't
> >> >> stand outright denial of it.
> >> >
> >> >You mean to say that there are some people who are very much against
> >> >Holocaust Denial, i.e., the denial of history, or, should I rather say, of
> >> >memory. And of course they put everyone who disagrees with them in the
> >> >"denier" bag, even if it is inappropriate.
> >>
> >> "Everyone"? No "they" do not.
> >
> >I apologize for my rhetoric, but I doubt that I was unfair to Mark.
>
> It's how *I* see it as *I* read it. I'm not historically ignorant.
>
> > Gross generalizations makes for a poor
> >> argument. Didn't you learn that while you got your MA? Selective
> >> sourcing that you use is very suspect.
> >
> >People should be free to take my arguments however they want. I do not feel
> >obliged to persuade anybody, but just to document my case. And how do I
> >selectively source (I want to see very many specific examples) ?
>
> How often have you written that something isn't in Romanian sources as
> an answer to Mark? I count at least htree times that I can recall.
> This answer I take for face value when Mark points to a Nuremberg
> Document NXXXX. This would be German document. So I see your answer
> as: Who cares about the German document there isn't anything in the
> Romanian documents. I say to myself: "So what?"
>
> >> I couldn't get away with it.
> >>
> >> >I must also note the fact that my limited time forces me to think little
and
> >> >type fast.
> >>
> >> I suffer the same problem. I've been known to take days preparing a
> >> response. I'll do that if the correspondent actually has the time to
> >> read and respond in a like manner. Otherwise I won't even take the
> >> time to spell check.
> >
> >I do not spell check. I can not save my posting, so I have do everything all
> >at once.
>
> Uh oh, I see the problem here. You aren't using a newsreader that
> saves this stuff in thread form? So when I cut material expecting you
> to be able to look to the top of the thread you cannot?
>
> I can see why you can't follow along and why the message you are
> sending is so busted up.
>
> [snip]
>
> >> >1. The fact that I have an M.A. in History means that I am trained in the
> >> >discipline, not that I am a professional historian. I have not published
> >> >anything.
> >>
> >> It's a tough world out there isn't it?  You didn't have to
> >> write a thesis for the MA? Did you get a teacher's certificate?
> >
> >I have written one, but I do not teach right now. I have a better job. And I
> >did write an M.A. thesis, albeit not about the Holocaust. I hope to publish
> >some of my research in Europe.
>
> Then you sort of been published and had a small peer review.
>
> >For the record, my income is more than $30,000 per year from my regular job
> >(for privacy reasons, I will not be more specific), and my money from
> >consulting (currently, dirt-digging) is about $15,000 per year (for about 100
> >hours of work, even though right now I am working ten days a week). Even so,
> >I am cheap.
>
> I'm not.

The reason why I discussed my income is because somebody asked me how much I
make by digging dirt on Clinton by private e-mail.

Since we do not disagree on substantive historical issues, please do not feel
obliged to respond. Nor will I feel obliged to do the same. I apologize for
that, but I have limited time.
I am sorry if I inadvertently or unfairly offended you or anybody else.
Thank you.

> Mike Curtis
>
>


--
George Popovici

Silence is an answer, but not the answer.
(George Popovici, ancestor of the poster,

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com Thu Jul 30 18:40:10 EDT 1998
Article: 195337 of alt.revisionism
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From: gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.magyar,soc.culture.romanian,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.israel
Subject: Re: (2) Re: Holocaust in Hungary (I): (...)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 19:04:49 GMT
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In article ,
  mvanalst@!spam!home.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
> In article <6pl76f$glf$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com
wrote:
>
> > In article ,
> >   mvanalst@!spam!home.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
> > > In article <6pif2v$2bp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > In article ,
> > > >   mvanalst@!spam!home.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
> > >
> > > [snip]
> > >
> > > > > > They were extermination sites or camps.
> > > > >
> > > > > But previously you denied that Romania had extermination camps! Are
you
> > > > > now saying otherwise?
> > > >
> > > > I never denied it.
> > >
> > > Subject:      Re: (2) Re: Holocaust in Hungary (I): (...)
> > > From:         gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com
> > > Date:         1998/07/23
> > > Message-ID:   <6p869d$hjt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
> > > Newsgroups:
> > > soc.culture.magyar,soc.culture.romanian,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.israel
> > >
> > > 
> > >
> > > Romania did not "build" or "operate" extermination camps. Some
concentration
> > > camps became extermination sites because of outbreaks of typhus. Slightly
> > > more than 68,000 Jews were executed at Bogdanovka, Domanevka and
> > > Akhmetchetka in the period from December 1941 until February 1942
according
> > > to the testimony of the prefect of the county in which the camps were
> > > located (Golta). He had ordered the massacres, not Marshal Antonescu.
> > >
> > > 
> > >
> > > Considering the above, please clarify for me the meaning of your first
> > > saying that "Romania did not 'build' or "operate" extermination camps." I
> > > took it to men that you denied that Romania did not have extermination
> > > camps.
> >
> > I did not mean that. Romania "had" extermination camps, but it did not
> > "build" or "operate" them; they were improvised, as I have shown. To build
an
> > extermination camp in my opinion means to erect buildings, facilities, etc.,
> > which the Romanians did not do at Bogdanovka, Domanovka and Akhmetchetka. To
> > "operate" an extermination camp brings to my mind the vision of gassing, or
> > shooting, or whatever, groups of people, after which other groups would come
> > and suffer the same fate. Since all the people in each of the camps were
shot
> > all at once according to the sources used by both me and you, Romania did
not
> > "operate" the camp. Maybe our differences of opinion comes from our
> > differences of what it means to "build" and "operate" a camp, but we do not
> > disagree over the fact that the 70,000 or so people were
> > exterminated/executed, which is the important thing.
> >
> >  I hope you can understand my perplexity when you later said that
> > > these camps _were_ "extermination sites or camps" and your denying that
> > > you ever said otherwise.
> > >
> > OK, no problem.
>
> Ah, I see. I think, then, we are in what is called "violent agreement"
> with each other on this issue: namelt that the Romanian government
> exterminated tens of of thousands of Jews at Bogdanovka, Domanovka and
> Akhmetchetka.

Exactly. "Violent agreement" is also a good term.

>
> [snip]
>
> > > > > Several cases typhus break out and the Romanians run off and shoot
> > > > > 48,000 people? Don't you see the absurdity of trying to defend such
> > > > > an atrocity by blaming it on typhus? Typhus is _preventable_. Easily
> > > > > preventable. It has a low mortality rate among healthy people. Yet the
> > > > > Romanians, instead of treating the causes of typhus, shoot 48,000 Jews
> > > > > because of a few cases of typhus.
> > > >
> > > > OK, and I never argued otherwise.
> > >
> > > Such rationalizations as you put forward- that shooting 48,000 people in
> > > cold blood was done because of a few cases of typhus -is indefensible.
> >
> > Please read my other posts. I think that you misunderstand my argument. I do
> > not defend anything.
>
> Your other posts _are_ the source of confusion. I'm at a loss to see how
> you can claim a few cases of typhus were responsible for the decision to
> kill en masse 48,000 people over the course of a few days. Perhpas you
> could explain your reasoning?
>

Perhaps the typhus epidemics were a rationalization or a pretext for the
massacre, and Ancel's documents would indicate that Isopescu could not think
of any better solution than mass murder. Modest Isopescu seems to have been
quite an unsavory character, and this is both obvious and undeniable.

> > > You completely ignore the historical context. Given the anti-Semitic
> > > policies of the Romanian government, the increasing persecution,
> > > confiscations, deportations, and finally mass murder; to assign the deaths
> > > of these people as the direct result of a few typhus outbreaks is
dishonest
> > > of you.
> >
> > Ditto.
>
> See above.
>
> [snip]
>
> Mark

Please do not feel obliged to respond to me on this issue. Nor will I feel
obliged to respond to you. You are free to interpret this any way you choose,
but I am genuinely busy.
Thank you. And I would like to say that despite our disagreements, I have
learned a number of things from you, and I would like to thank you for that.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line seperating good and evil
passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political
parties--but right through every human heart--and all human hearts."
>
> -- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>


--
George Popovici

Silence is an answer, but not the answer.
(George Popovici, ancestor of the poster,

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com Thu Jul 30 18:40:11 EDT 1998
Article: 195338 of alt.revisionism
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From: gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.magyar,soc.culture.romanian,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.israel
Subject: Re: (2) Re: Holocaust in Hungary (I): (...)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 18:58:23 GMT
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In article ,
  mvanalst@!spam!home.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
> In article <6pl8l5$k6v$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com
wrote:
>
> > In article <35bccc28.7470962@news.sig.net>,
> >   mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:
> > > gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >
> > I must apologize for the brevit of my answer.
> >
> >
> > > >> > 3. No Holocaust historian specializing in Romania, neither Radu
Ioanid,
> > nor
> > > >> > Jean Ancel, nor Julius Fisher, nor Th. Lavi, nor Lya Benjamin, nor
> > anybody
> > > >> > else, has used the above mentioned document, or talked about the
10,000
> > Jews
> > > >> > sent over the Bug and back again.
> > > >>
> > > >> Gee, sounds like a small oversight on their part.
> > > >
> > > >I do not share your opinion.
> > >
> > > Tell me why if you won't tell Mark. I have read you letter to him in
> > > June. In fact I can't find an answer to why anywhere in this thread.
> >
> > Because there is no documentary evidence, from Romanian sources, for his
view.
>
> That is like saying there is no evidence that the U.S. cracked Purple and
> JN25 because there is no documentary evidence from Japanese sources saying
> they were cracked. I do hope you see the fallacy of such an argument?

Since I desire to end the discussion on this issue, I will note that neither I
nor Mark have proven each other's point on the issue of the 10,000 to each
other's satisfaction.

> > I think that the discussion was originally in soc.culture.romanian and
> > soc.culture.magyar, before Mark got in.
>
> It was cross-posted to alt.revisionism at your request, was it not?

I will check to see.
Thanks.

> [snip]
>
> Mark
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line seperating good and evil
passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political
parties--but right through every human heart--and all human hearts."
>
> -- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>


--
George Popovici

Silence is an answer, but not the answer.
(George Popovici, ancestor of the poster,

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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From gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com Sat Aug  1 06:25:43 EDT 1998
Article: 195551 of alt.revisionism
Path: trends.ca!hub.org!falcon.america.net!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!204.238.120.130!news-feeds.jump.net!nntp2.dejanews.com!nnrp1.dejanews.com!not-for-mail
From: gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.magyar,soc.culture.romanian,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.israel
Subject: Re: (2) Re: Holocaust in Hungary (I): (...)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:07:23 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
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In article <35c1c7d2.6280414@news.sig.net>,
  mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:
> gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com wrote:

I have taken note of this posting. However, I do not have the time to make
comments, especially since this will make the discussion interminable. Some
people might interpret this as a concession on some controversial points. I do
not. Yet they are free to believe this, or whatever they want.


> >> >> >> Tell me why if you won't tell Mark. I have read you letter to him in
> >> >> >> June. In fact I can't find an answer to why anywhere in this thread.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Because there is no documentary evidence, from Romanian sources, for
his
> >> >view.
> >> >>
> >> >> It's not _his_ view but the presentations of other historians who are
> >> >> not excluding evidence that _isn't_ from Romanian sources. So I must
> >> >> suggest based on your tunnel vision that you might have to seek other
> >> >> sources in order to find out what might be missing.
> >> >
> >> >I will contact the U.S.H.M.M., which has 800,000 documents from the
archives
> >> >of Romania, the Republic of Moldova, and Ukraine (source: an e-mail from
Radu
> >> >Ioanid to me) concerning the genocide against Jews in the areas controlled
by
> >> >Romania. Yet if my theory will be supported by them, then you will say
"how
> >> >about the Russian archives. Russia did not hand over the relevant
documents
> >> >to the U.S.H.M.M." And you would be right. I think that probably, and I
> >> >emphasize probably, Mark and Hilberg are wrong, and I, and all the
> >> >specialists on the Holocaust in Romania, are right. After a number of
years,
> >> >we might know for sure.
> >>
> >> I don't think you understand. I don't know if the USHMM is the last
> >> word about Holocaust history either. I think it depends upon the
> >> integrity of the historian and how he wants his peers to view the
> >> thoroughness of his work.
> >>
> >> Example: I'm researching an American Revolutionary War Battle. Should
> >> I exclude hessian documents because *I* think they are "wrong" but I
> >> can't present a valid reason why they are wrong? I think I include
> >> Colonial American, Hessian, German, French, Indian, and English
> >> sources as completely as I can. That's my point. Calling Hilberg or
> >> Mark wrong doesn't cut it on your say so alone.
> >
> >Ok, so neither I nor Mark can prove our cases. Satisfied ?
>
> I find it all pitifully sad.
>
> [snip]
>
> >> >It is a fact than in November 1941, Romania shipped a number of Jews over
the
> >> >Bug, to the German area, where they were all killed. I have mentioned that
in
> >> >a previous posting. Could the German documents be accurate, but
> >> >chronologically misleading?
> >>
> >> We know this event happened. This one is a positive.
> >
> >True.
> >
> > And it is based
> >> on what particular documents?
> >
> >See some of the sources cited by me in previous postings, such as the work by
> >Ancel. I have not seen any Romanian wartime documents on this issue, because
> >they have been discovered very recently. Ancel names them in the footnotes,
> >and quotes a little bit from them.
>
> So what's the major point in all this. What is so profound? You do
> have a nutshell version?
>
> >>
> >> > Perhaps, within the context that everything
> >> >would have taken place in November 1941, and that 10,000 is an
approximation
> >> >for the real number, and should be understood as meaning "more than
5,000".
> >> >Perhaps the Germans liquidated 10,000 Jews, one or more thousand of which
had
> >> >been sent from Transnistria. Another possibility might be that the Germans
> >> >got confused. Some cities have two parts (such as Golta-Pervomaisk) one on
> >> >one side of the Bug, and the other, on the other.
> >>
> >> These words presenting other possibles and maybes are what Mark is
> >> trying to understand. In history, maybes and possibles are more
> >> footnotes than anything else. they are opinions and should be
> >> presented as such. One opinion is as good as another when so much
> >> seems so unsure. Does this mak any sense?
> >
> >Yes, it does.
>
> [snip]
>
> >> >> >> It seems to be an important point. You were conserned with how others
> >> >> >> read your postings and replies right?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >No, I am simply very busy. I have a job and a quarter (a regular job,
plus
> >> >> >dirt-digging on Clinton et al.)
> >> >>
> >> >> Let the power hungry in Washington dirt dig. They don't need amatuers
> >> >> like you digging up nonsense.
> >> >
> >> >1. I am trained in research.
> >>
> >> The research in my humble opinion is not constructive to any national
> >> positive. The research will go on ad nauseum no matter who is in
> >> office. It will not stop. Is is easy to do. It doesn't matter how you
> >> are trained. It isn't a reflection on you. It is a reflection on the
> >> state of this country's politics and its willingness to make hard
> >> choices and take leadership roles.
> >
> >True.
> >
> >>
> >> >2. It is not nonsense, but I will deal with all of these issues later.
> >>
> >> > While your at it you can come up with a
> >> >> way to fix social security.
> >> >
> >> >The money coming from the person/employee should be divided in three
thirds.
> >> >One will operate under the old system, the other third will be pooled, and
> >> >invested with various mutual funds, etc., and the other will be invested
by
> >> >each employee in whatever stocks or bonds he prefers. If a person will
lose
> >> >too much money on his one-third "personal investment", his two-thirds will
> >> >still be safe. Overall incomes from social security will be increased.
Part
> >> >of the federal money from the one-third under the old system will be used
to
> >> >compensate the victims of fraud (I am not talking about bad investments,
or
> >> >bad luck, but outright fraud), and so will the income and wealth of the
> >> >defrauder. People should be allowed, and encouraged, to place their
> >> >"one-third personal" investment in the large "government" pool.
> >>
> >> Sounds like a workable idea. Now what's wrong with Congress in all
> >> this? Oh yeah, they want to get elected. So to hell with your idea
> >> lets pick on the ruling party. That's a lot easier. My thoughts are
> >> along the same line but I fingure if I run for office dirt on me will
> >> be far more important than any ideas I might have.
> >>
> >I have collected dirt only on Clinton.
>
> Then you will solve nothing in the end other than basic yellow
> journalism. You may not think so but in the end you will collect your
> check and no one will much give a twig. It's a party thing and it has
> been for a long time. Even the anti-Federalists saw what was coming
> down the road when they saw no preventions from a party protecting
> itself by law. Many of the anti-Federalist writings make this crystal
> clear.
>
> >> > I'm much more interested in that than in
> >> >> this presidents sexual life and whatever obfuscations people would
> >> >> like to throw in rhater than deal with fundemental problems.
> >> >
> >> >I do not deal with sex. I deal with campaign contributions from foreign
> >> >Communists and former Communists and the related quid pro-quos.
> >>
> >> There are no such things as communists. (There may be a few dreamers
> >> left who really closer to being socialists.) There never has been a
> >> communist. There have been no Capital C communists except possibly for
> >> Mr. Hershey in the 1920s. No Country has ever come even remotely close
> >> to the vision of Marx or Engles and they never will.
> >>
> >> Secondly, Campaign Contributions isn't only a democratic party problem
> >> but a national problem. Yet you call it digging dirt up on Clinton.
> >> Very interesting.
> >
> >The money from Hong Kong which went into R.N.C. coffers (the Barbour money)
> >was also from the P.R.C.
>
> Again, it moves this voter not one bit.
>
> [snip]
>
> > >> So you can
> >> >> see what the belt way would rather do?
> >>
> >> I think you really do understand right?
> >>
> >> >> > I think you are trying to have this one in the wrong group.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >I think that the discussion was originally in soc.culture.romanian and
> >> >> >soc.culture.magyar, before Mark got in.
> >> >>
> >> >> Blaming Mark for your problems?  Part of the blame falls on you, sir.
> >> >
> >> >Whatever.
> >>
> >> Nice cop-out.
>
> I wanted to leave this cop-out in.
>
> >> >> > You
> >> >> >> use a lot of sources that are not immediately available to all and
> >> >> >> expect many of us to believe you because you drop those sources.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >People can check all of these things in the future, after ten years, or
> >> >> >whatever.
> >> >>
> >> >> That's not done by people in this group. They are looking for anyway
> >> >> to deny any little aspect.
> >> >
> >> >Including both the Holocaust Deniers and Mark.
> >>
> >> I know Mark personally. Not on a day to day basis but from a brief
> >> meeting. He's very tough when people evade and make excuses. Yes, part
> >> of the blame falls on you.
> >
> >Let's say that it does, although I am not certain about the details. Mea
> >Culpa.
>
> You've been stabbed so much I don't think you have much blood left. I
> guess you are now an official martyre?
>
> >> >He actually believed that the Holocaust did not occur, but my sources
> >> >convinced him otherwise. Have you ever converted a Holocaust Denier ? No,
you
> >>
> >> Me? Not a chance. They aren't convertable. Something that isn't
> >> historical in nature will change them. They'll meet someone who will
> >> influence them profoundly. I also think you are being unfair. No one
> >> here is trying to convert anyone because we have found that that is a
> >> frutiless goal. I've been at it for 4 years now and I've only seen 2
> >> "convert." And it wasn't really as a result of anything happening
> >> here.
> >
> >Perhaps I am unfair, but my sources did convince the guy, who would prefer to
> >remain anonymous, because his views are now similar to mine, and if he will
> >post something, Mark will bring up his "denier past".
>
> Very convenient unnamed situation. Gee, what can I make up to tell you
> and pass it off as reality?
>
> >>
> >> >and Mark would probably just insult and drive them away, and induce them
to
> >> >join the National Alliance, or whatever.
> >>
> >> I guess if you want to dismiss me so quickly (and I haven't a clue
> >> what I've done to deserve this kind of treatment) then I guess that's
> >> the easy thing for you to do. I haven't called you a single name that
> >> I can recall. I haven't called you a denier even once. Yet here you
> >> are making suggestions about my tactics. What's up with that?
> >
> >Have I insulted you ?
>
> You've accused me of making arguments consisting of calling you a
> denier and so on, didn't you? You say that I'll insult people and
> drive them away right?
>
> I'm not so much insulted as disappointed that you can't figure it out.
>
> [snip]
>
> >> >> That's one of the things they deny. There was an East German neo-nazi
> >> >> who said that they look for intelligent but historically ignorant
> >> >> young people who might be accepting to anti-Semetic history and dogma.
> >> >> So they might beleive that the gas chambers are made up. The problem
> >> >> is that this seems to be a growing European problem among the younger
> >> >> generation. Am I wrong?
> >> >
> >> >I live in the U.S., and I think that it is more of a problem in here, but
> >> >also a problem in there.
> >>
> >> I see it differently. We are far more open for speech. Yet Germany
> >> tends to send a lot of this into the underground where it can't be
> >> seen. So it can thrive that way. It doesn't get exposed that way. I
> >> see that as far more dangerous than openly discussing it.
> >
> >Very true.
>
> [snip]
>
> >> >> > You aren't here with
> >> >> >> historians.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Danny Keren is actually quite well informed. Yet I see what you mean.
Even
> >> >> >Mark has done a great deal of reading about Auschwitz. He knows some
> >things
> >> >> >about the camp which I do not know. Yet he does not know for example
that
> >the
> >> >> >Holocaustologist Oliver Lustig, a university professor in Bucharest in
his
> >> >> >book BLOOD-BESPOTTED DIARY, (Bucharest: Editura Stiintifica si
> >Enciclopedica,
> >> >> >1988), actually more of a history book than a diary, although he was a
> >> >> >deportee to Auschwitz, and he does talk about his experiences,
> >> >>
> >> >> Deniers will say he isn't valid at all. As an MA you MUST know that no
> >> >> one source stands alone. It must fit in with other primary sources.
> >>
> >> No comment?
> >
> >I use very many primary and secondary sources which corroborate with each
> >other.
>
> Yet you fasiled to connect the dots. We are also speaking about the
> book above and not your general messy discussion in the newsgroup. You
> need to stay on-topic.
>
> See:
>
> >> >> He doesn't have to. He's a witness. So he is a first hand source. BUT
> >> >> his material should be checked out as most anal retentive historians
> >> >> tend to do.
> >> >
> >> >Most of his book is made up of secondary sources, with a spicing of
> >> >remembrances. I think that the title was poorly translated in English by
> >> >others. "Blood-Bespotted History" might have been a more revealing
> >> >translation.
> >>
> >> Then it is of vlaue on that basis only.
>
> Understand the flow?
>
> [snip]
>
> >Since we do not disagree on substantive historical issues, please do not feel
> >obliged to respond. Nor will I feel obliged to do the same. I apologize for
> >that, but I have limited time.
> >I am sorry if I inadvertently or unfairly offended you or anybody else.
> >Thank you.
>
> Punt!
>
> Mike Curtis
>
>


--
George Popovici

Silence is an answer, but not the answer.
(George Popovici, ancestor of the poster,

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp   Create Your Own Free Member Forum


From gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com Sat Aug  1 06:25:44 EDT 1998
Article: 195563 of alt.revisionism
Path: trends.ca!hub.org!falcon.america.net!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net!newsfeed.nyu.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!204.238.120.130!news-feeds.jump.net!nntp2.dejanews.com!nnrp1.dejanews.com!not-for-mail
From: gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Schindler's List
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 19:58:56 GMT
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In article <1998073005280800.BAA13527@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
  chuckf2323@aol.com (ChuckF2323) wrote:
> < From: gdpopovici@my-dejanews.com
> Date: Wed, Jul 29, 1998 7:38 PM
> Message-id: <6pntmt$dqb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
>
> In article <6pluah$p98$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
>   chuckvic@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > In article <35bb40c7.0@news.rlc.net>,
> >   georgeh@mail.rlc.net (George F. Hardy) wrote:
> > > In article <35BA9444.117D@wco.com>, The General  says:
> > >
> > > >That scene was authentic because it showed the camp
> > > >inmates believing that gas would come out of the shower.
> > > >I heard a survior, who spoke at the Museum of Tolerance in
> > > >L.A., say that she never knew whether gas or water was going
> > > >to come out of the shower. I also read an account of a
> > > >survivor at Dachau who thought that the gas came out of the
> > > >shower heads.
> >
> > At Dachau, the showerheads were fake. No connections to water or gas. No
> > connections to anything except the wall.
> > The Zyklon B crystals were dropped in from the roof. Claims are made that no
> > humans were ever gassed at Dachau,
>
> And these claims were made by Martin Broszat and other very legitimate
> historians.
>
> CF:>>>>>Like what *other legitimate historians?
>
>  but some were, not thousands, but some
> > numbers of humans were murdered at Dachau, by gassing.
>
> I am not going to get bogged down into an argument whether it was so or not,
> or to document my views in this thread. Ken McVay neither knows, nor very
> much cares about the answer to this issue.
>
> CF:>>>>>So now, you speak for Mr. McVay?  How nice.

He told me his opinion by e-mail.

> > Chuck Ferree
> >
> > Be sure to see the re-run of Schindler's List. The German version. They
> > pretend like they won. ala cuddles.
> >
>
> Please visit these web sites:
>
> http://remember.org/index.html
>
> http://www2.3dresearch.com/~june/Vincent/Camps/CampsEngl.html
>
>


--
George Popovici

Silence is an answer, but not the answer.
(George Popovici, ancestor of the poster,

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp   Create Your Own Free Member Forum



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