The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

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From hostrov@uniserve.com Mon Jul  1 09:07:39 PDT 1996
Article: 47373 of alt.revisionism
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From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A question for revisionists re: defenses at N'burg
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 07:04:45 GMT
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In <4r6g67$sh8@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
wrote:

>In article <4r1j5m$bq8@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken)
>writes:

>>
>>>  Of course if you are convinced of the mass gassings at the scale
>generally
>>>  reported, that's fine.  Others of us are skeptical and await more
>>>  convincing proofs or revisions.
>>
>>	At this point, the burden is really on those who assert that the
>murders 
>>occurred in some other fashion.
>>
>>	--YFE

>Two comments:  you are absolutely right that the burden of proof rests on
>the skeptics and/or revisionists and/or deniers.  And I personally am in
>no position to do so.  But I nevertheless must insist that the generation
>of evidence at the IMT was such that legitimate skepticism as to the value
>of the evidence should not be dismissed out of hand.  

By all means, insist if you must, Mr. Ehrlich.  But if it is your view
that "legitimate skepticism as to the value of the evidence should not
be dismissed out of hand" it might help if you could be more specific
about the concerns you obviously must have regarding "the generation
of evidence at the IMT".  

And for a refreshing change, perhaps you could articulate these
concerns without any reference to the customary strawmen (soap,
Auschwitz numbers, Katyn "and so on" - if I might borrow one of your
handy-dandy phrases.)

We've been there and done that _so_ many times.  Besides, if I recall
correctly, you yourself told us in response to one of my posts when
you were here the first time "that's what deniers do".  And even if
you were referring to something else - you are now doing what deniers
do.

As for the rest of your post, perhaps in the interest of "honest
debate," instead of cobbling and weaving, you'd care to try your hand
at addressing the precise points raised by Mr. Edeiken.  It's very
easy really:  instead of *dropping* context so as to give yourself a
pretext for repeating your earlier arguments in new, improved
paragraphs, just include the entire post in your reply ... and
respond, point by point.

Try it, you'll like it ... I know I will. And I'm certain that other
readers, noticing that some of your comments have a very familiar ring
to them,  will appreciate not having to switch back and forth from
post to post.

And to assist you, I have deleted the balance of your text and am
reposting here the _full_ text of Mr. Edeiken's response.



From: yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A question for revisionists re: defenses at N'burg
Date: 28 Jun 1996 21:34:46 GMT
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>   ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) writes:
>
>  Having read both of your posts to David Thomas, I would say that you have
>  arrived at your conclusions with a perhaps predictable alacrity.  Judge
>  Francis Biddle, writing in his memoirs, noted that a phrase in the IMT
>  Charter that the *Tribunal need not require proof of facts of common
>  knowledge, and that it might take judicial notice of of official
>  government documents for the investigation of war crimes.* (quoted,
>  American Heritage, August, 1962, p. 70). 

	That is standard evidentiary law.  The most famous bit of 
cross-examination in American history -- the murder trial in which
Linclon was 
defense attorney, Ford used it as the basis for his movie "Young Mr.
Lincoln" -- 
depends on the first point.  Official government records are
admissible under the 
"business record" exception to the hearsay rule and, in federal rules,
specifically 
as FRE 803 (8) (which is broader than most state rules).

  
>  I would argue that this aspect of the Charter confirmed the *reality* of
>  every allegation contained in the indictment.  And, as such, one could not
>  question the facts.  Now, if such a situation obtained at the IMT, it
>  would apply a fortiori to the NMT, and all subsequent trials.

	Certainly one could.  The difference is that the burden of proof is 
shifted.
  
>  But the simple fact is that the massive murders through gassings which
>  were accepted as facts of common knowledge by the IMT were never 
proved in
>  the manner in which normal murders are proved.

	This is incorrect.  I think you are misreading Biddle's statement.


>  But now you say that a defense lawyer could have questioned the facts?  I
>  don't see how that could have been done.

	Why not?  They could have produced evidence.  The fact is that they 
did not do so.


>  After all, none of the people at
>  the IMT had been directly involved in any exterminations.  No one said
>  that they had.  But again, the Charter held that the concept of collective
>  responsibility obtained in the responsibility for war crimes and crimes
>  against humanity. (Bradley F. Smith, *Reaching Judgment at Nuremberg*, p.
>  61ff)

	The charge was that they were part of a conspiracy.  This is far 
different from "collective resposibility."
  
>  Frank, Seyss Inquart, Kaltenbrunner and the rest would have hanged in any
>  case.  Because of the concept of collective responsibility, and because of
>  the _fact_ that the Jewish communities were destroyed, and many non-Jews,
>  as well, perished.

	Again, the "concept of collective responsibility" is a modern excuse.

The indictment and proof clearly related to an on-going conspiracy.


>  But again your argument seems to be that, since no one challenged mass
>  gassings, there must have been mass gassings.  But two comments.  First, I
>  would argue that they were not allowed the question the mass gassings. 
>  Second, they did not question many other things that have long since been
>  withdrawn: steaming, 1.5 million dead at Majdanek, 2.5 million dead at
>  Auschwitz, soap made of human beings, and handbags made of human skin 
at
>  the Danzig Anatomical Institute.  And so on.

	Please show me the portion of the trial where they were not allowed to

raise such questions.  Certainly that is not true as a general matter.
Not only was 
a defense presented but the defense case was longer than the
prosecution.  
The defendants seemed well able to contest the Katyn Forest charges,
for 
example.  They did so successfully.

>  Of course if you are convinced of the mass gassings at the scale generally
>  reported, that's fine.  Others of us are skeptical and await more
>  convincing proofs or revisions.

	At this point, the burden is really on those who assert that the
murders 
occurred in some other fashion.

	--YFE



Now, try again, Mr. Ehrlich.  And this time, "Play Fair!".


=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Mon Jul  1 09:07:41 PDT 1996
Article: 47378 of alt.revisionism
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From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Anne Frank
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 08:53:43 GMT
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In <4r4kmk$43g@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken)
wrote:

>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes:
>>  Marty Kelley  wrote:

>>  
>>  >Are you now claiming that you believe Anne Frank's diary to be a hoax?  
>>  >In the past, I believe you had stated that you didn't know.  Please 
>>  >clarify your position on the authenticity of the _Diary_; I would also 
>>  >like to know why you think it's a hoax (if you do).
>>  
>>  	I said exactly what I said.  That there was a plagarism settlement.  

>	There wasn't.

Quite correct, Yale.  There wasn't

>>  
>>  	What would be of interest is finding the book the plagarism was 
>claimed
>>  to  be from and which parts were involved.  

>	None.  As usual you are shooting your mouth off without haven't the 
>faintest notion of what you are talking about and hoping that no-one would 
>notice.

Some things never change, do they?!  OTOH, he does seem to have found
a defender who is oblivious to all this.  Ah, well, there are none so
blind as those who will not see, I suppose :>)

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Mon Jul  1 11:59:29 PDT 1996
Article: 47406 of alt.revisionism
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From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is "chutzpah"?
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 18:12:24 GMT
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In <31d14e23.2142239@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran aka the denier in search of a person) wrote:

>yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>>  
>>>  	"Chutzpah is a Jewish practice for dealing with non-Jews. It is a
>>>  major part of the upbringing process within the community, from within
>>>  the home to the synagogue.
>>
>>	That's a lie.  You are a liar.
>>

Li'l Tommy lets this statement of the obvious rest unrefuted.  Ergo,
he acknowledges that his original statement (which he was recyling for
the umpteenth time - part of his homework for Denier 101) is a lie and
that he is a liar.

One wonders if this silent acknowledgement is a sign that Li'l Tommy
is finally developing some integrity and will henceforth restrain his
rigii from recycling this particular big lie. (Yes, folks, he sure
caught on to Mr. Thomas' articulation of the art of promulgating base
propaganda.)

>>  
>>>  Alan Deshowitz, in his book by that name, "Chutzpah", summarizes it as
>>>  "A little boy who kills his parents and then pleads to the court for
>>>  mercy on the grounds he is an orphan".
>>
>>	Dershowitz did *not* "summarize"  it in that manner.  I note, as well, 
>>that you have admitted that you have not read the book you are quoting.
>>

Li'l Tommy  lets this observation rest unrefuted.  Ergo, he
acknowledges that he has in fact admitted that he has not read the
book he was quoting.

Is this a further sign of progress on the path to integrity on Li'l
Tommy's part?  

>>>  Another way of putting it is:
>>  
>>>          Someone putting a big spoon full of reeking doo doo up to your
>>>  mouth and telling you it's honey.
>>
>>	Bullshit.  You are an anti-Semite and a liar who, according to one 
>>source that you cited in support, broadcasting "mis-information" and 
>>"dis-information."

Yet another silent acknowledgement from Li'l Tommy.  Will wonders
never cease!  Perhaps we shall _finally_ see an apology and/or a
retraction from Li'l Tommy.

>>	Want to challenge me to prove my statements, L'il  Tommy?

>	Why should I "challenge" you? You should be just including the
>proof.

Ooops, Li'l Tommy suffers a _major_ relapse.  Not only does he fail to
apologize and/or retract his claims, but Li'l Tommy (who seems to
think that he is exempt from providing _any_ proof of _his_ claims)
also manages to demonstrate - beyond the shadow of a doubt - that, in
addition to being an anti-Semite and a liar,  he is the virtual
epitome of what chutzpah *really* means.  Tsk. Tsk.Tsk.  

hro

=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Mon Jul  1 13:52:44 PDT 1996
Article: 47452 of alt.revisionism
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From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: *Ordinary Canadians*
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 04:59:48 GMT
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In <4qpuue$ql4@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
wrote:

>In article , hce@magmacom.com (Howard
>Eisenberger) writes: [in response to Mr. Ehrlich's sermon from the mount]

>>
>>To posit such an incredible and unsubstantiated interpretation of
>>contemporary society indicates either questionable motives or an
>>appaling lack of critical reasoning. I suppose you can take solace
>>in the fact that so many others are willing to share your illusion.

>No.  Because to question the orthodoxy is to have your house firebombed. 
>It is to be harrassed, to have acid thrown in your eyes, to be imprisoned,
>to be deported. To have your name forged on this board.  To have your
>family harrassed through this board.  It is a disgrace.

>And you know that.

Really?  Very interesting Mr. Ehrlich.  But for those who don't,
perhaps you could provide some enlightenment by presenting some
evidence to support your claims - or at the very least citing the
sources of these unsubstantiated assertions.  I do understand that you
may hold the opinion that your word should be good enough for everyone
- and perhaps for some it might be.  But just on the off-chance that
there might be someone out there who has the audacity to doubt your
authoritative pronouncements, it would be the gentlemanly thing to do,
don't you think?  Or are such courtesies not part of your vision of
what "this board is _supposed_ to have on it"?

hro

=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Mon Jul  1 13:52:45 PDT 1996
Article: 47465 of alt.revisionism
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From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Question #2:  Evidence of a Conspiracy
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 17:59:30 GMT
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In <4r73gv$5r9@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
wrote:

>In article <31D6E328.2467@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison  writes:

>>
>>So my question to Erlich606 is now this: why did you delete the part
>where
>>Giwer gratuitously insults someone who has done him no harm?  Why do you
>>insist on defending him?

Gee, Keith, you don't suppose it could be because the honourable
honest gentleman (who it would _appear_ has just done it again) was
hoping people would *forget* that this was the point of your question.
In order to clear a path, so to speak, for blithe (and blind?) defense
of the indefensible.  He wouldn't do that, would he?

>>And my second question is this: assuming that revisionist/deniers
>actually
>>have a point, how can you reasonably come to the conclusion that there
>was
>>no Holocaust or that it was greatly exaggerated *without* invoking some
>>kind of conspiracy to alter the truth?
>>
>>

>As far as text deletions go, I generally pick up only the last few lines
>of the post I am responding to.  There is nothing sneaky there, believe
>me.  OK, so don't.

Well, I guess that might explain why so many of your posts _appear_ to
be quite unrelated to the substance of the post you are responding to.
Have you considered, Mr. Ehrlich, that those discussions in which you
are engaged might progress more smoothly if you were to change this
general practice of yours?

And it would certainly make following the discussion so much easier
for those who are cursed by "flakey servers" that do not deliver all
posts in a timely and orderly fashion.

Really, it's not such a novel concept. But do try it, you might like
it.

>I defend Matt's skepticism as well as my own.  That's really all there is
>to it.  

Well, I must confess that I much prefer to see you put yourself and
Giwer in the same league than to see you suggesting (as you did
elsewhere) that he and I are in the same league.  However, I'm still
uncertain whether you are attempting to elevate him - or sliding down
to his level.

In any event, Mr. Ehrlich, feel free to defend whatever skepticism you
wish.  However, as Mr. Morrison noted in the post you are responding
to (and as you have _again_ deleted):

	Notice the first part of Giwer's message that Erlich606 left out: the

	part where he uses relatively demeaning language against someone who 
	asked a straightforward question and has not insulted or attacked 	
	him.

Please clarify - for the benefit of those who decide to accept your
invitation to "Play Ball!" - according to the rules of your game, is
it acceptable to use "demeaning language" against someone who has
asked a straightforward question without insulting or attacking?

And please spare us another of your "revisionist" spins which to date
have indicated either that you have not done your homework or that you
are being willfully blind.

A simple yes or no will suffice (provided you agree not to *drop* the
context of the question in your response)

>As to the second point, I don't know who is coming to the
>conclusion that there was no Holocaust, but I don't think it's me, or
>Matt, or several others.  

Well, we can leave you out of this one.  You must know your own mind,
and I for one would never presume to read it.  And indeed _no_
reasonable person _is_ "coming to the conclusion that there was no
Holocaust."  Nor are they likely to.  

However, regardless of what you "think", there _are_ many others
("Matt" included) whose posts to this newsgroup leave no doubt
whatsoever that they are coming _from_ the _faulty_ _premise_ that
there was no Holocaust - and whose willfull distortions and outright
lies are proffered in "support" of this faulty premise.  There is no
evidence of "skepticism" in these posts.

I have no wish to do you any injustice here.  And certainly that fact
that you have not responded to many such posts _may_ indicate that you
have not seen them.  But if this is the case, as he whom you choose to
defend has said on _countless_ occasions:

You are not following the newsgroup.  Read the newsgroup. (Except he
rarely says it quite so politely)

As to a *conspiracy* let's keep in mind that the
>Soviet Union was until very recently a closed society, and whatever the
>apparatus came up with was the truth.  We know that they faked materials
>to get John Demjanjuk.  We know that they faked materials about Katyn
>Forest.  We also know that they faked materials that were used at
>Nuremberg, at the very least, the solemn declarations that a lot more
>people died at the exterminations than we hold today.  
>  

 So you and many others have said many times.  You are sounding
considerably less ambiguous about these matters than you did in the
posts of your first visit.  In fact, you are beginning to sound
_exactly_ like every other denier/distortionist who has posted to this
newsgroup.  But all of these issues, as you well know, have been
presented, addressed and dealt with [dare I say it?!] over and over
and over.  They have no bearing on the historicity of the Holocaust.

And with that out of the way, perhaps you will _now_ address Mr.
Morrison's second question.  Just in case you've forgotten, it is at
the top of the page, but to save you the trouble of scrolling back -
here it is again:

>>And my second question is this: assuming that revisionist/deniers
>actually
>>have a point, how can you reasonably come to the conclusion that there
>was
>>no Holocaust or that it was greatly exaggerated *without* invoking some
>>kind of conspiracy to alter the truth?

To which I would add: Or, in light of your intro to what is becoming a
"revisionist mantra", are we to understand that the new, improved
"revisionist" theory is that the Holocaust was a communist inspired
conspiratorial plot?  Get serious!

>Are we all done
>with revising the truths of the past, of the Holocaust?  I don't _think_
>so.  That's all.

How profound.  But let us not forget the big picture: the Holocaust
resulted in the murder of 12 million innocent civilians, approximately
half of whom were Jewish, at the hands of Hitler and the Nazi regime
of the Third Reich.  

A few simple questions, Mr. Ehrlich. How is any "revising" going to
change this big picture?  Or put another way, in your view, what is
wrong with this big picture that it might be in need of any revising?

Interpretation of some details may change - interpretation is always
subject to change.  I have changed my interpretation of you, as I'm
sure you have of me.  But you have not changed - nor have I!  

And try as you might, all this "skepticism"  and "revising" that you
seem to think holds so much promise, will never change the big
picture.  As a very simple analogy, you can - as you have been doing
of late - *drop* details of a poster's argument in your response. I
guess that is "revising" isn't it?  But your doing so does not alter
in the slightest the _reality_ of the big picture that the poster put
forward.

Were the Zyclon B pellets blue, green or mauve?  It doesn't matter.
How many holes were in the roof - or bolts in the floor - of a
building that was destroyed over 50 years ago?  It doesn't matter.
The big picture will never change.

The reality is, Mr. Ehrlich, the truth of the past - and of the
Holocaust which _is_ part of the past - is no less true today than it
was then or than it will be in the future.  That's all.

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Mon Jul  1 17:50:38 PDT 1996
Article: 47504 of alt.revisionism
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From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Who controls the troll?
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 17:59:27 GMT
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In <31D5597E.3249@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison  wrote:

>Obviously you two haven't been introduced to the decoder ring
>replacement available at ftp.zog.com.  It's the latest release
>of PGP (Prevent Goy Participation), version 6.66.

Shhhhh .... If the Chief finds out that you've let _this_ cat out of
the ZOGbag, I shudder to think where he'll send you.  

So how's the weather out there, anyway?

P.S. Last time I slipped up like this he ordered me to go to (can you
believe this?!) Philadelphia - to oversee the translation of the
*entire* works of W.C. Fields into Hebrew.  And it took twice as long
as it should have because (the _top_ secret truth is) McFeestein did
the original translation and blew it bigtime! (He couldn't get his
decoder ring working and he kept sending reports that it was changing
colour - some things never change, eh?!)  I had to translate it back
>from  McFeebrew to English before I could even start!


=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Mon Jul  1 17:50:39 PDT 1996
Article: 47505 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Between the lines
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 17:59:28 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 46
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4r93jm$3fv@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <31d2f7c9.22261157@news.pacificnet.net>  <31d6e947.1635282@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0211.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <31d6e947.1635282@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) wrote:

>Marty Kelley  wrote:

[snip]

>>
>>(By the way, as a Unitarian who believes that people should make their 
>>own religious choices, I was offended by the Baptist announcement.  
>>I get annoyed by most evangelistic religious crusaders, regardless of 
>>their sect.  And yes, that includes the Lubavitch Hassidim, who are, as 
>>far as I know, the only "evangelistic" Jewish group.  At least they don't 
>>come knocking on your door early on a Saturday morning...)

Definitely _not_ on _Saturday_ morning, Mr. Kelley!  And if the
Lubavitch Hassidim were in  and they knocked on your
door on Sunday morning (or any other morning - or any part of any
other day, for that matter), they would do so _only_ if they saw a
mezuzzah on your doorpost.

>	Lubavitch too? But I see you have made the other the more of the
>two evils, "At least they don't ...", (Lubavitch, that is).

Trust our Mr. Moran, eh?!  And in anticipation of Mr. Moran's request
that I "expand upon" my statement above, I shall do so now.  

You see, Mr. Moran, the Lubavitch Hassidim would never attempt to
persuade a person of another faith to convert to Judaism.  Active
proselytization (look it up in your dictionary, Mr. Moran) is contrary
to the tenets of Judaism.  When the Lubavitch Hassidim are in
 they are merely attempting to persuade other Jews to
become more observant.  Sometimes they succeed (and sometimes those of
us who are Jewish - but not as observant - speak of such "converts" as
"born-again" Jews)

Well, I can hardly wait to see the results after Li'l Tommy's feeds
this through his all-purpose prejudice-mill!

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Mon Jul  1 20:42:49 PDT 1996
Article: 47544 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.structured.net!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The New Ball Game (Was: Clarification Requested)
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 17:59:32 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 83
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4r93jq$3fv@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4qqeed$lg4@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU> <4qui93$sja@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4qvqae$6sf@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU> <4r1daf$h2q@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4r7nd9$kfq@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il>
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <4r7nd9$kfq@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il>, schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard
Schultz) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>: rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>: >People die from carelessness with HF check out sci.chem, if you don't
>: >believe me.  HCN is very dangerous; it would be irresponsible of me to
>: >advocate that you handle pure HCN in the manner you suggest.

>: 	At this point it would be irresponsible for anyone to listen to you
>: without independent verification.  

>Could someone please explain to me in what sense the last sentence above
>is not a "personal attack"?  If it is a personal attack, could someone
>please explain to me on what basis Myshkin feels that it's okay to respond
>to personal attacks on him with hundred-line junk posts, but objects to
>a procmail shell that sends back his email unread?  Just curious.

Hmmm... this is indeed a very puzzling question, Mr. Schultz.  I have
observed, however, that Messrs Ehrlich and Thomas seem have become the
self-appointed arbiters of the new, improved, revisionist netiquette. 

And I am confident that one of them will enlighten us as to how  we
have erred by daring to:

a) characterize these words as a personal attack (as all reasonable
people would) and/or 

b) question the propriety of any behaviour in which Myshkin sees fit
to engage (as all reasonable people would)

I had heard rumours to the effect that there was reform afoot in the
"revisionist" ranks.  Talk of civilized discourse, intellectual
honesty, personal responsibility, proper citations of text,
presentation of evidence to support claims, retractions and apologies
when called for - all that good stuff, you know.

Alas, it seems they found that Myshkin and Moran were ... hmmm....
shall we say "resistant" to reform.  M&M - as we all know - have been
the fearless frontline footsoldiers recycling revisionist rhetoric for
longer than many of us would care to remember.

As you can well imagine, this presented a quandary at RHQ, because
they are committed to presenting a united front.  They could brook no
division in the ranks.  Then one of their bright lights stumbled
across the strategy used by the Z-factory.  You've probably noticed it
in the Z-grams.  They take truth to the cleaners by running it through
their own special language laundry. You know how Ingrid talks when
she's in one of her loquacious expository moods - she just winds
herself up and abracadbra! black is white and white is black!

It didn't take long to work out a strategy using this technique. They
developed a buddy system:  M&M could carry on as usual; when a post of
theirs is given the treatment it so richly deserves, the buddy
(usually one of the arbiters) rushes in, waves his magic wand over the
words and abracadabra "demeaning language" becomes "skepticism" and
"moranic neologisms" become "legitimate terms" - and to further
bolster the new reality, we get blamed for their indiscretions, i.e.
it is pointed out that whoever dared to give the post the treatment it
deserves is in fact guilty of one MorM sin or another.  Neat, huh?!

You are probably asking yourself, "How can they say such things when
there is a virtual mountain of documented evidence proving
indisputably that Moran is twit and Myshkin's a troll?"

Well, we all know the answer to that:  "Evidence, what evidence? It's
all very questionable.  There was never a twit and never a troll.  M&M
are outstanding paragons of virtue.  Because! We! Say! So!." 

Well, Mr. Ehrlich did invite us to "Play Ball!"  And after all, this
_is _ "revisionism." 

Hope this helps, Mr. Schultz

Posted/e-mailed to Mr. Schultz
hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Mon Jul  1 20:42:51 PDT 1996
Article: 47569 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: - Rascher Letter.jpg (0/1) Re: Strange things on IX
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 22:35:43 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 39
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4r9jph$5al@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4qtvct$mt7@atlas.uniserve.com> <4r0308$k74@newsbf02.news.aol.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0318.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In , mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark
Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <4r0308$k74@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
>(Ehrlich606) wrote:

>> In article <4qtvct$mt7@atlas.uniserve.com>, hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary
>> Ostrov) writes:
>> 
>> >
>> >Oh, how disappointing.  I found Mr. Van Alstine's post quite
>> >informative.  And I was looking forward to the "reasoned response"
>> >that Mr. Ehrlich prides himself on. But I see that in his reply, 
>> >Mr. Ehrlich deleted all but one paragraph of Mr. Van Alstine's
>> >reasoned and factual discussion, without indicating that he had done
>> >so.  And cobbles a very flimsy excuse not to respond to the substance.
>> >
>> >
>> 
>>   What is there to respond to? 

>More to the point, what is Mr. E _capable_ of repsonding to? 

>Why nothing, obviously! 

It does occur to me (since I notice that there are an awful lot of
EIOU's hanging about in the ether) that perhaps Mr. E.  is too busy at
the moment dressing the troll to whom he sold his soul.  And I do
wonder how long it will take him to learn - as we have known for quite
some time - that you can dress up a troll, but you just can't take him
anywhere.

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Mon Jul  1 20:42:52 PDT 1996
Article: 47572 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What end serve Mr. Giwer's spams?
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 22:36:58 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 32
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4r9jrs$5al@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4r0d05$2r7@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <4r3mrj$7tu@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4r97s9$8ht@lendl.cc.emory.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0318.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <4r97s9$8ht@lendl.cc.emory.edu>, libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william
c anderson) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>: 	They are appended to posts which contain personal attacks on me.  
>: 
>: 	Do you have a problem with that?
>: 
>: 	Or do you, like the holohuggers, consider personal attacks to be
>: examples of the kind of debate they claim they want?  

>Mr. Giwer is, as we all know, a staunch opponent of personal attack.  
>That's why he refers to his ideological opponents as  "holohuggers,"
>litters his posts with invective, and just last week resorted to 
>calling several of the female regulars on a.r. "fat broad".

Indeed, Mr. Anderson, he is responding just as we have programmed him
to.  He's incapable of doing anything different.  But he was getting
bored with that particular boorish invective.  So we let him use his
imagination to come up with another one.  Took him about 48.75 hours
of deep thought, according to our records.  I'm certain you will be
able to spot the result when you see it.

hro

=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Tue Jul  2 06:55:19 PDT 1996
Article: 47597 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor/JDL ready for "battle" against evil Christians
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 20:50:55 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 56
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4r9dl3$4pe@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <31d678b9.254137@news.pacificnet.net>  <31d7d335.222006@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0122.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <31d7d335.222006@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran
aka the denier in search of a persona) wrote:

>jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>
>>> Then there is the clickable from the Nizkor site, "The Jewish
>>> Defense League".
>>
>>The Zuendelsite, IHR web site, and CODOH web site are also clickable
>>from the Nizkor site.  Do you also assume that we support them as
>>well?  I think you must be confused, Mr. Moran, as to the meaning of
>>an "other sites" page.  Let me try to explain:  it provides links to
>>other sites.
>>
>>Hope this helps.

Well, nice try Mr. McCarthy, but it doesn't seem to have helped.
You know for a while I thought I saw some signs of progress.  But now
it seems that Mr. Moran's progress is in remission (or maybe that
should be retransmission ... he's run this little gambit before,
hasn't he?!)  

I'll leave his brilliant little response attached.  It is somewhat
amusing in a way.  What _is_ this JDL declaration bit?! Doesn't he
think we have enough to do with Nizkor pages?!  Sheesh, he must think
we go all over the net creating pages for other people! 

He claims that Nizkor is engaging in "inverted suggestion."   I don't
think any of the web pages are upside down are they?  Or maybe he
thinks that because there is a *mirror* site on *eye.net* that there
must be an optical illusion somewhere - and he's just taken a stab in
the dark.  And he thinks our disclaimer is "tacit"!  Sheesh, you'd
think by now, he of all people would recognize an "explicit" when he
saw one!  



>	Jamie, I notice you avoided comment on the solicited
>clarification in the intro to the JDL declaration. The one about your
>referrence to a photograph of Marc Lemire and your tacit disclaimer
>against violence. What I think, is, Nizkor is trying to be cute by
>employing an inverted suggestion. 

[sig's deleted. hro]

Posted/e-mailed to Mr. McCarthy

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Tue Jul  2 06:55:20 PDT 1996
Article: 47662 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 09:25:39 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 36
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4rapru$9he@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4r7ujb$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4r8r6h$p9@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <4ra4o1$qc6@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0221.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <4ra4o1$qc6@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels) wrote:

>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>>>	I have not decided upon this as yet but I am considering posting
>>>holocaust truths in response to any attack upon anyone questioning the
>>>holocaust dogma, not just those attacking me.

>>I think this would be a valuable idea (no irony intended), because then you would
>>actually present _texts_ and not only cut-and-paste quotations of other people's posts.
>>I prefer having something to base a reply on, as you probably know.

>	Then of course that would equally apply to the mindless repeated Keren
>spams would it not?  

Oh, I must have dropped in to the wrong topic.  I thought the header
read "a new approach"  

But I see it is still "business as usual" for Mr. Giwer.  I seem to
recall that he actually had demonstrated his ability to post without
any unwarranted childish outbursts and gratuitous insults etc.  Then
again, I did see a very informative post from Mr. Graves a few hours
ago.  So perhaps that was the other Mr. Giwer.

And I suppose if this one is unable to distinguish between his wastes
of bandwidth and Dr. Keren's periodic repostings, there doesn't seem
to be too much room for optimism. Does there, Mr. Abels?


=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Tue Jul  2 10:17:16 PDT 1996
Article: 47695 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A question for revisionists re: defenses at N'burg
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 04:07:02 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 81
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4ra76l$7n3@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4qsd4a$30k@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4qsjd2$5ho@newsbf02.news.aol.com>  <4r9lh8$15e@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0217.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Mr. Giwer is to be commended for conducting himself  throughout this
post without the use of unwarranted childish, disrespectful
namecalling and/or gratuitous profanities and invective.  

His civilized tone was appreciated.  Today he was wearing the colours
of the  

In <4r9lh8$15e@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

Sorry, Mr. Giwer, you are off to a poor start.  Your friend, Mr.
Ehrlich has on a few occasions commented that it is "difficult to know
the players without a program."  USENET posting tradition has
developed a way of addressing this problem.  That method is to include
the names of _all_ the "speakers".  This is known as providing
"attributions"

In this instance you have deleted the name of one of the speakers,
i.e. Mr. Ehrlich, whose words can be found within the text of your
post    [Ball 1]

Oh, and not only have you failed to note that Mr./Ms SF924 - who -
after all _is_ hosting this game -  is one of the players, you have
deleted SF924's text which provides the context for this game.  Very
bad move, Mr. Giwer.   Sorry.   [Strike 1]

>>"Afternoon Session: Goering, Ribbontropm and Hess had a great laugh over
>>the reading of Goering's telephone conversation with Ribbontrop on the day
>>of Hitler's triumphant entry into Vienna, describing the whole thing as a
>>lark., with birds twittering, etc. Then the hilarity in the dock suddenly
>>stopped as Commander Donovan announced the showing of a documentary film
>>on Nazi concentration camps as they were found by American troops.

>	We note here by AMERICAN troops, therefore we do not expect to find any
>mention of gas chambers or human skin as we now know those things did
>not exist.  

Sorry, Mr. Giwer, your point has no relevance to the text you are
purporting to address.     [Strike 2]

>>Streicher: "...keeps watching, immobile ecept for an occaisinal
>>squint...as human skin lampshade is shown, Streicher says, 'I don't
>>believe that'...

>	And of course he was correct in not believing it.  

Sorry, Mr. Giwer, your assertion is unfounded.   [Strike 3]

We are "Playing Ball!" are we not, Mr. Ehrlich?  Well, the umpire has
just called it, Mr. Giwer. Sorry, you know the rules: 3 Strikes and
you're out.  

[tsk tsk tsk many more Strikes deleted]

>>And? Are you suggesting something here? That the Nazis were railroaded perhaps? 

>	Given all the evidence you have presented that these people did not know
>about what was going on, it is difficult to come to any other
>conclusion.  

Ah, I see that it is just as well, because Mr. Giwer has reached a
highly erroneous and totally unsupported conclusion.

Better luck, next inning, Mr. Giwer.   But then again perhaps you were
only "pitch hitting" for the cobbler.   And who knows, maybe _he_ will
decide to return to the game.  But thanks for playing.  And for being
so civil.  I'm sure we shall meet again.  Maybe you'd like to brush up
on the rules while you are sitting on the bench.

Posted and e-mailed to Mr. Van Alstine and Mr/Ms SF924 to let them
know that the pitch-hitter struck out.  And to Mr. McFee who is also
waiting for Mr. Ehrlich to return on an adjacent field.

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Tue Jul  2 17:20:35 PDT 1996
Article: 47789 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!news.his.com!news.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Who's Fat and Who ain't
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 04:07:01 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 27
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4ra76k$7n3@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4qd60h$396e@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <31cb34a9.5213463@news.eden.com> <4qt0jq$46na@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4r0lb7$6hn@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <4r6nif$25cs@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4r9p4u$sbh@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0217.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <4r9p4u$sbh@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>, Laura Finsten
 wrote:

>gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:


>>>What's the grand prize, anyway, Gord?                                                             

>>A rather thin tome entitled _The Wit and Witticism of Matthias Gottfried
>>Giwer and Saint Thomas Moronicus_.

>Eeeewwww YUK!  I withdraw my application!!!!                                                                       

Whew! I'm sure glad I didn't throw my hat in the ring on that one -
talk about intellectual cruelty.  Well, you know Agent
Finsterschwarvay he's been having an _awful_ lot of trouble with his
decoder ring lately .... not sure about you, but I'm beginning to
wonder if .... well, you know.



=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Wed Jul  3 07:37:01 PDT 1996
Article: 47941 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news1.io.org!winternet.com!n1ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Question #2:  Evidence of a Conspiracy
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 01:29:51 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 72
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4rcic0$f4h@atlas.uniserve.com>
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In <4ra80c$cja@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
wrote:

>In article <31D55831.4B4D@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison  writes:

[For the record: notwithstanding the absence of a reference thereto in
the headers or text of this post from Mr. Ehrlich, I believe the
correct attribution is Mr/Ms SF924, not Mr. Morrison]

>>
>>> This dovetails into my second question.  As I understand it, the
>>> revisionist position is that the gas chamber story and the plan to
>>> exterminate the Jews was a conspiratorial hoax perpetrated by one or
>more
>>> of the following:  World Jewry, Zionists and one or more of the allies.
>>> It is alleged that this is one of the greatest hoaxes in history

>This is _one_ revisionist version.  I think if the revisionists could be
>said to have a *Null hypothesis* is that conventional scholars have shown
>an unwillingness to admit that forged documents, perjured testimony, and
>flights of fancy have been allowed to become part of the *historical
>record*.  Aside from oblique comments by Otto Friedrich, and a few others,
>conventional scholars have been very rare in coming out and saying *this
>[or that] [testimony/document/photograph] is [not true/forged/doctored].*

Excellent response, Mr. Ehrlich.  It was what I was hoping to see.
Although -  forgive me if I appear to be splitting hares (ooops,
sorry, splitting hairs, that is:>) - I do find your use of the word
*Null* a little coy.

Overall I find this to be a succint but rather sweeping summary of a
position.  at this point I am uncertain as to whether I would
characterize the position as "baroque" or "baronic".  

But that aside, in the interest of honest debate - and while it would
be interesting to know - it matters not whether this is _your_
position or your _interpretation_ of the "revisionist" position.  For
now, since you have presented this position, I shall refer to it as
"your" position - and I apologize in advance if this is not, in fact,
the case.  Whether you wish to enlighten us in this regard is up to
you, of course.

That being said .... If I understand your position correctly, one
might argue that it is difficult to see how the
admissions/acknowledgements you seek could significantly change what I
have often called "the big picture"  - or the historicity of the
Holocaust.

But I think it would be unreasonable of me to so argue without giving
you an opportunity to expand on your position.  So the floor is now
yours, Mr. Ehrlich.  In order to avoid any misunderstandings, please
substantiate your claim that "forged documents, perjured testimony,
and flights of fancy have been allowed to become part of the
*historical record*" and please indicate the conclusions one might
reasonably infer from an examination of such documents, testimony and
"flights of fancy" - given that the topic _is_ "Evidence of a
Conspiracy."

I look forward to your response, preferably on-board, but by e-mail if
you wish and I shall post such e-mailed response on your behalf.

[deletia]

Posted/e-mailed to Mr. Ehrlich, Mr. Morrison and Mr/Ms. SF924

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Wed Jul  3 10:05:48 PDT 1996
Article: 47941 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news1.io.org!winternet.com!n1ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Question #2:  Evidence of a Conspiracy
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 01:29:51 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
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Distribution: world
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <4ra80c$cja@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
wrote:

>In article <31D55831.4B4D@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison  writes:

[For the record: notwithstanding the absence of a reference thereto in
the headers or text of this post from Mr. Ehrlich, I believe the
correct attribution is Mr/Ms SF924, not Mr. Morrison]

>>
>>> This dovetails into my second question.  As I understand it, the
>>> revisionist position is that the gas chamber story and the plan to
>>> exterminate the Jews was a conspiratorial hoax perpetrated by one or
>more
>>> of the following:  World Jewry, Zionists and one or more of the allies.
>>> It is alleged that this is one of the greatest hoaxes in history

>This is _one_ revisionist version.  I think if the revisionists could be
>said to have a *Null hypothesis* is that conventional scholars have shown
>an unwillingness to admit that forged documents, perjured testimony, and
>flights of fancy have been allowed to become part of the *historical
>record*.  Aside from oblique comments by Otto Friedrich, and a few others,
>conventional scholars have been very rare in coming out and saying *this
>[or that] [testimony/document/photograph] is [not true/forged/doctored].*

Excellent response, Mr. Ehrlich.  It was what I was hoping to see.
Although -  forgive me if I appear to be splitting hares (ooops,
sorry, splitting hairs, that is:>) - I do find your use of the word
*Null* a little coy.

Overall I find this to be a succint but rather sweeping summary of a
position.  at this point I am uncertain as to whether I would
characterize the position as "baroque" or "baronic".  

But that aside, in the interest of honest debate - and while it would
be interesting to know - it matters not whether this is _your_
position or your _interpretation_ of the "revisionist" position.  For
now, since you have presented this position, I shall refer to it as
"your" position - and I apologize in advance if this is not, in fact,
the case.  Whether you wish to enlighten us in this regard is up to
you, of course.

That being said .... If I understand your position correctly, one
might argue that it is difficult to see how the
admissions/acknowledgements you seek could significantly change what I
have often called "the big picture"  - or the historicity of the
Holocaust.

But I think it would be unreasonable of me to so argue without giving
you an opportunity to expand on your position.  So the floor is now
yours, Mr. Ehrlich.  In order to avoid any misunderstandings, please
substantiate your claim that "forged documents, perjured testimony,
and flights of fancy have been allowed to become part of the
*historical record*" and please indicate the conclusions one might
reasonably infer from an examination of such documents, testimony and
"flights of fancy" - given that the topic _is_ "Evidence of a
Conspiracy."

I look forward to your response, preferably on-board, but by e-mail if
you wish and I shall post such e-mailed response on your behalf.

[deletia]

Posted/e-mailed to Mr. Ehrlich, Mr. Morrison and Mr/Ms. SF924

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Wed Jul  3 22:42:50 PDT 1996
Article: 48105 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-6.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust final exam
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 21:42:10 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
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Distribution: world
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References: <31dae1ff.2002675@news.pacificnet.net>
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <31dae1ff.2002675@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) wrote:


>Question:
>	The reason the Jews are so avid in bellowing the Holocaust story
>is:


>	A: So that the world will know the horrors of bigotry and malice?

>	B: To instill guilt, justify Zionist policies and to extort
>money. 

The correct wording of the question is:

The reason Tom Moran is so avid in recycling his drivel and lies is:

	A:  So that the world will know what a horribly bigotted and malicious
anti-Semitic twit he is?

	B: To prove he can cut and paste, demonstrate his ignorance and waste
bandwidth?

	C: Both of the above?

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Thu Jul  4 07:43:22 PDT 1996
Article: 48138 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!spool.mu.edu!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The GiwerOlympics: Speed-Posting and UDP consideration
Date: Thu, 04 Jul 1996 07:44:12 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 61
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4rfslh$rd9@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4r9q65$f59@Networking.Stanford.EDU>  <4rfe62$3j32@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <4rfe62$3j32@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
wrote:

>In article ,
>jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) said:

>>
>>rich@c2.org (Rich Graves) wrote:

>>> How long does it take, in Free Agent, to send a post, read another in
>>> another group, change the From: line in preferences, and send another
>>> post? Can it be done in four seconds?
>>                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>>Rich, you are obviously a FORGER and a HOLOHUGGER because you have LIED
>>about this.  The whole POINT of your question is the number FOUR, and
>>since that number is MAUVE, er, I mean since that number is WRONG, you are
>>clearly NOT TO BE TRUSTED!

>>The DISCREPANCY in your testimony is EASY to spot:

>>> X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 27  6:06:31 PM CDT 1996

>>> X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 27  6:06:36 PM CDT 1996

>>Since SIX minus ONE leaves FIVE SECONDS, NOT FOUR SECONDS, you are a
>>falsus-in-uno-falsus-on-the-bus HOLOHUGGER and we shall never again
>>believe a single word you say about anything.

>>This is the revisionist way.

>Thank God for you, Jamie.  You have seen through that guy Graves (never did
>trust him) and exposed his feeble attempt to imply that the Giwer-bot is
>being fed all the bullshit he is posting and/or (both?) a number of people
>are posting from his account.  I was just about to name them all when you
>pierced this conspiracy.  Good work, and you can borrow my ring when it
>turns from mauve to violet.

Excuse me? Jamie, you have made a SERIOUS "secondary" error.  And
Gord, you endorsed him!   So much for independent thought in _that_
camp! What is the topic here? The Olympics, right?  Good, you agree.
Now take a deep breath and think carefully!  What usually happens
during the Olympics?  Records get broken, do they not?  

Yes, Jamie, of course SIX minus ONE = FIVE.  And It is obvious that
Mr. Graves is tacitly acknowledging that the current RECORD is FIVE
seconds.  Did he say "It was done in FOUR seconds"? No. He ASKED, and
his QUESTION was "CAN it be done in FOUR seconds?"  

The discrepancy never happened. Get over it! 

And in honourable revisionist fashion, I know that EACH of you will
IMMEDIATELY post a retraction and an apology.


=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Fri Jul  5 06:39:03 PDT 1996
Article: 48387 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Neither Scholar nor Gentleman (Re: The Return of the Prodigal Poster  - Faustian Follies?)
Date: Fri, 05 Jul 1996 08:21:51 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 169
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4rij7u$7fb@atlas.uniserve.com>
References:  <4rht29$g6r@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <4rht29$g6r@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
wrote:

>In article ,
>jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) writes:

>>[etc.]
>>
>>> Who said I was bitter?  Your co-web mistress indicated the means of
>>> verifying my identity
>>
>>Um, "mistress"?
>>
>>That's awfully damn insulting, as I expect you know, since Giwer has
>>stated repeatedly that the woman in question only has her job by virtue
>>of bedding a couple of other people (me, for one).  You've managed to
>>pointedly and, perhaps you think cleverly, underscore that insult.
>>I'm afraid I'm not amused.
>>
>>I expect crap like that from Giwer -- he's only trolling after all --
>>but I didn't expect it from you, Ehrlich.

>Jamie, this is totally ridiculous.  I am insinuating nothing of the kind,
>in this by now week old post.  The fact is:  you, a male, are a
>*Co-webmaster*.  Hilary, a female, is the same thing.  To _me_ to call a
>female a *Co-webmaster* violates common sense gender titles.  That is why
>I called her *Co-webmistress.*  Nothing more.

My how noble!  I suppose, in the interest of "common sense gender
titles" Mr. Ehrlich would also have me change my resume to reflect
that my degree is not a B.A. (Batchelor of Arts) but an S. A.
(Spinster of Arts) and that had I chosen to do graduate work, I would
have attained a Mistress of Arts degree, not a Master of Arts.

Aside from the fact that the correct term - AND THAT WHICH I CHOOSE TO
USE  - is Co-Webmaster, the fact is, Mr. Ehrlich (if you scroll back
to the top of this message, you will see for yourself ) you did _not_
call me a 'Co-webmistress'.  Your _specific words_ were:

	Your co-web mistress indicated the means of verifying my identity

Shall I spell it out for you?  Not *Co-webmistress* but *co-web
mistress*  Now let me guess your next response:  are now going to
complain that I'm berating you for your *typos*?  It won't wash! God
forbid that Mr. Ehrlich should accept responsibility for his _own_
words and apologize! 

For evidence of the lengths Mr. Ehrlich will go in order to avoid
retraction and apology, readers are invited to peruse my June 29 post:
"Untangling" <4r44ip$f4h@atlas.uniserve.com>

Why is it that those who are so quick to take umbrage at the slightest
perceived (and - in Mr. Ehrlich's case - often imperceptible to
reasonable people) wrong to their own "reputation", will stop at
_nothing_ in their denial of personal responsibility for words aimed
to discredit that of another?

It seems this "identity" problem of Mr. Ehrlich's is still floating
around.  For the record, the means of "verifying" an AOL user's
identity are common public knowledge. 

So before he jumps on that high horse again, I would remind Mr.
Ehrlich, that earlier in this thread (as an excuse perhaps to avoid
responding to the substance and questions of my original post which
started this Topic) he let forth a volley of insults and innuendo
directed at me and Friends of Nizkor
<4qivvs$92j@newsbf02.news.aol.com>.

My requests for evidence or retractions
<4qjvp1$fv8@atlas.uniserve.com> remain unanswered.  [DvdThomas'
further unsubstantiated allegation of "intimidation" does not count as
evidence.]

In May, when he was more civil (and we were more curious), Mr. Ehrlich
expounded on his reasons for choosing pseudonymity:

Herewith his first reason <4m0ode$26a@newsbf02.news.aol.com>:



	"Obviously, my identity is pseudonymous and I am surprised that
someone hasn't commented on what I think is a rather clever nom de
cyber.  My main reason for anonymity is twofold.  First, I have
received too many cyberposts from cyberladies here and there who are
attracted by my impressive intellect, rapier wit, and comprehensive
knowledge.  My wife resents the hell out of this, and I suspect she
also doesn't want one of them to find out just how "impressive" I
really am."



I certainly have seen little (if any) evidence of any of these
"impressive" traits.  I cannot imagine why his wife should feel in the
least bit concerned.  

His second reason [from the same post]:



	"The second reason has to do with authority.  One of the benefits of
cyberspace is that it makes it possible for people to communicate
without going through the hierarchy of authority as it exists these
days.  People are judged here not by their looks, their degrees, their
publications, their wealth, or the whiteness of their teeth, but
solely by the content of what they say.  [...]"

Indeed, people are judged by "the content of what they say."  One
wonders, therefore, why Mr. Ehrlich would say one thing in May and in
June <4qmj6e$fap@newsbf02.news.aol.com> in response to the question:

>Why don't we start with the level of honor shown by people who refuse
>to post under their own names?

reply with the following:



	"There is nothing dishonorable about posting pseudonymously,
especially since there is sufficient evidence both via this board and
internationally that those who refuse to espouse particular orthodox
opinions on this topic are harrassed, imprisoned, and deported."



I would note that the above "defense" has been refuted elsewhere - so
please don't try to cobble your next response on the basis of that
particular set of unfounded nonsense, Mr. Ehrlich.

>I think we are getting pretty bad if we start suggesting things about each
>other's private lives.  I agree that it should stop.  Therefore, Matt
>should stop making remarks about Hilary's private life, and all the rest
>of you can stop making cracks about Matt's.

Indeed, "one is judged by the content of what they say".  In the above
paragraph our cobbler friend has been practicing his whitewashing
skills.  He is fully aware that the boorish foul-mouthed troll whom he
chooses to defend (for reasons I certainly cannot fathom, but no doubt
they are known to himself) has no knowledge whatsoever about my
"private life".  Therefore, he has made no "remarks" about it.  He has
however, left a trail of gratuitous foul-mouthed libellous insults
directed at me.

>I find it hard to believe that you would see an insult in *co-webmistress*
>but so be it.  Are you sure you are just not trying to start something?

I, on the other hand have no difficulty believing that since Mr.
Ehrlich did _not_use_ the word "co-webmistress"  [as noted above],
that he is again attempting to avoid responsibility for his words - by
which he is now being judged.  

Finally, I have in other posts to this newsgroup referred to Mr.
Ehrlich as an "honourable and honest gentleman".  He has repeatedly
proved that he is undeserving of being called "honest", "honourable"
or a "gentleman".

I hereby retract such statements and would ask the gentlemen of this
newsgoup who _are_ genuinely "honourable and honest" to forgive me for
impugning their characters by my inaccurate and inappropriate
attribution of these characteristics to Mr. Ehrlich.

hro

Posted/e-mailed to Mr. Ehrlich and Mr. McCarthy
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sat Jul  6 08:00:26 PDT 1996
Article: 48546 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!van-bc!van.istar!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Push, push, push
Date: Fri, 05 Jul 1996 19:56:30 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 36
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4rjruc$b15@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <31dbc7b0.449451@news.pacificnet.net> <4rj43b$36ea@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0423.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <4rj43b$36ea@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, ncrccjc@ibm.net (Bernie
Farber) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>
>>     	"Hungary to Compensate Jews for Wartime Losses"
>>                    N.Y.Times, July 4, 1996
>article snipped:
>Tommy opines:
>>	Well, 600,000 Jews killed? Well, sometimes its 500,000, and
>>sometimes is 400,000, and sometimes 200,000.

>Bernie Farber responds:

>No Mr. Moron, only in your feverish and confused mind.

QED ... almost daily.

>It is typical of Holocust deniers to obfuscate, lie and bend the facts.

Indeed .... QED ... definitely daily.

>Time to give up the ghost.

So did you, too, detect the occasional hand of a ghost-writer behind
the Moranic keyboard of late?

Posted/e-mailed

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sat Jul  6 08:00:27 PDT 1996
Article: 48603 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!news.his.com!news.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS SHUT DOWN
Date: Fri, 05 Jul 1996 20:14:34 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 38
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4rjt09$b5j@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4rj7ov$5sk@news-e2b.gnn.com> <31dd275c.844581@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0423.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <31dd275c.844581@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran
aka the denier in search of a persona) wrote:

>Widmann@gnn.com (Richard Widmann) wrote:

>>-THE THOUGHTCRIME ARCHIVES-
>>
>>THOUGHTCRIME: 07/04/96
>>
>>BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS SHUT DOWN
>>____________________________________________________________________
>>
>>	As the first seconds of July 4, 1996 ticked away, the Bradley 
>>R. Smith / CODOH (Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust) 
>>website was shutdown from the World Wide Web.  The Bradley R. Smith 
>>Website was dedicated to the cause of Free Speech and especially 
>>encouraged open debate on the topic of the Holocaust.

>	Looks like theres going to be a celebration party at Nizkor. Lots
>of e-mail to and from the usual, telling each other what a great day
>it is.

Oh, really?  Gee I wonder what happened to my invitation.  I don't
suppose you would have any evidence to support your "vision" would
you, Li'l Tommy?

You don't?  Gee, why am I not surprised.  Looks like Moran has trapped
himself here!  If he has such "evidence", then he is guilty of
intercepting other people's e-mail.  And if he doesn't have such
"evidence", then he is lying again.  As usual.

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sat Jul  6 08:00:28 PDT 1996
Article: 48607 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!news.erinet.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!van-bc!van.istar!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: "Poster's Progress" (Was Hate Hate Hate ....)
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 1996 09:16:26 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 243
Distribution: world
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References: <31da8509.893190@news.pacificnet.net> <3JUL199609415098@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <31dbcc2f.1599855@news.pacificnet.net> <31dd25e8.472080@news.pacificnet.net> <5JUL199610294072@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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In <5JUL199610294072@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu>,
dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

[in response to the denier in search of a persona:
]
>    Well well well, zeyde.  I must admit your ability to raise an argument
>    is much improved over when you first joined our little newsgroup last
>    Fall.  I guess Marty and I aren't such bad teachers after all  :>

Indeed, Mr. Mittleman, you and Mr. Kelley would appear to be excellent
teachers!  

Just the other day I was perusing my documentation for "The Morphing
of Tom Moran." [I'm sorry to report, btw, that both the NY and LA
Times have rejected this serialized manuscript - to which I offered
them first rights.  They said my writing was great, but that - despite
all the documented evidence provided in my text - none of their
respective readers would ever believe that such a twit actually exists
in either the real or the virtual world]

Lest we not *fully* appreciate just how _far_ Mr. Moran has come since
his pre-literacy phase, I offer the following repost of my response to
one of his earlier "efforts."  

The Topic, introduced by Mr. Moran (who later in the thread - or
perhaps elsewhere - expressed his pride in the number of posts under
this thread), was entitled "Nizkor Invite Accepted"  [circa Nov.
10/95]  The full text of the post to which I was responding is
available on Nizkor.  [All parenthetical comments below in original]

ftp://ftp.eye.net/pub/nizkor/people/m/moran.tom/1995/moran.1195



tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


>	Jamie,
>	My first impulse was to post something on alt.rev, but I'll e-mail
>this instead.  If you want to post it, its okay.

[rest of body of letter to Mr. McCarthy deleted]

>	Anyway, all this started as a little e-mail.  I had recieved inquiry
>about a previous allusion to methodologies between the websites of the
>Holocaust obsessed and those who are trying to set the record
>straight.  I kept it e-mail as an act of mercy, but as it turned out
>it was passed on to Hillary Ostrov, who sent me her opinion on
>-------- me, myself personally.  She really gave me a lashing.  I
>can't spell, English must be my second language, sentence structure,
>miss the point, don't know the meaning of words.  Well I better leave
>the whole thing up to Hillary.  She wrote she didn't see any need to
>post her reply to the fowarded e-mail, but if I did to make sure I
>post it without deletions.
>	Hillary, are you going to post your own response or are you
>subliminally embarrassed?

Mr. Moran, as I indicated in my response, I had no objection to your
posting it.  I am not in the least embarrassed (although I am curious
to know how it is possible for one to be "subliminally embarassed") 

Since Mr. Moran has now made his e-mail public, and since he has for
some reason - possibly known only to himself - chosen not to post my
response despite his subsequent e-mails to both Mr. McCarthy and
myself indicating that he _had_ posted it, I am now posting a copy.  

Readers of this newsgroup may decide for themselves whether Mr.
Moran's precis of my response is, in fact, accurate.

Perhaps in future, Mr. Moran, if you are going to address me by my
first name, you would at least do me the courtesy of spelling it
correctly.  Thank you.

[begin e-mail to Tom Moran, 06:31 PM 11/09/95
	To: tm@pacificnet.net (Tom Moran)
         From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
      Subject: Re: Fwd: Nizkor invite accepted
	Cc: Jamie McCarthy 

[Note:  I have taken the liberty of correcting my typo in the word
"responsibilities".  In the interest of conserving bandwidth I have
deleted Mr. Moran's original letter which has already been posted to
alt. revisionism.   hro]

Mr. Moran,

Jamie McCarthy has forwarded your letter to me.  As you may know, he
and I share responsibilities as volunteer Co-Webmasters of Nizkor.
This letter consists of my response followed by the full contents of
your letter to him.

Thank you for taking the time to write.  An initial reading of your
letter would suggest that you seem either quite confused or are making
a deliberate attempt _to confuse_ If the former is true, then I hope
you will find my suggestions helpful.  If the latter, then I am not
sure what your goal might be.  I would also note that I see no need to
post this to alt.revisionism; however, I have no objection to your
doing so - with the proviso that it be published without any deletions
and that any additions on your part be clearly indicated as such.

That being said, I must draw your attention to the fact that your
letter, in its entirety presents numerous instances of difficulty in
simply ascertaining the point you are attempting to make.  This is
consistent with my experience - as well as that noted by others - of
your posts to alt. revisionism.  Perhaps English is not your first
language, but regardless of whether it is or not, you would be well
advised to avail yourself of a good dictionary.  The essence of
communication is having a common understanding of the meaning of words
used. 

At the end of your opening litany of statements which seem to indicate
that perhaps you do not understand how to use the web and/or FTP
and/or the software and hardware at your disposal, you conclude by
stating:

>	My personal opinion is that the archives are set up so as to give the
>appearance of a heavy dose of material that can prove the Holocaust,
>and are coded and presented in such a way to deter anyone from looking
>into them at length. 
>	In summary for my conclusion, "plaintext", need for special equipment,
>and the inexplicable set up.
>	Needless to say, we can't go into these files at any length for
>critique, so I'll just focus on some of the surface stuff.

An interesting opinion, Mr. Moran, but unfortunately one that is not
substantiated by the facts nor - as far as I was able to determine -
by anything you wrote in your letter.  Nor, as far as I know,  is it
an opinion shared by those who choose to access Nizkor for the very
purpose to which it is intended: i.e. as an electronic repository of
material pertaining to the _facts_ of the Holocaust (and the
refutation of the attempted denial of these _facts_ by those who
mistakenly call themselves "revisionists").  

Contrary to your assertion, the archives on Nizkor are _not_ in any
way an attempt to "prove the Holocaust".  Some of the material does
refer to the vast body of evidence and testimony that constitutes
accepted historical proof.   Such material _is_ referenced and/or
cited in a manner which enables any reader to verify the information
at its primary source, in accordance with commonly accepted practice.

A further difficulty in your letter,  in many instances, arises as a
consequence of the absence of _specific_ references from the documents
to which you allude.  Danny Mittleman
(dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu) posted an excellent guide,
"Internet Citations: A Reference",  to alt. revisionism on November
7/95.  While this guide does refer to scholarly papers rather than to
the informal discussion that frequently occurs in newsgroups such as
alt.revisionism or private correspondence, I am sure you will find it
helpful. 

The conventions contained therein can be readily adapted (the above
citation is an example!) and, in addition to being a courtesy to one's
reader(s), provide a more coherent and productive basis for
discussion.  ( If you have missed this post, I would be glad to
forward you a copy.  Just let me know.)

There are many instances in your letter in which you refer somewhat
disparagingly to material found on Nizkor.  I do find this somewhat
curious in light of your earlier assertion (noted above) that "we
can't go into these files at any length for critique".  Your comments,
however, are replete with typical indicators of one who has a
Holocaust denier/anti-semitic agenda - rather than of one who is
genuinely seeking information.  For example, your letter includes the
following:

>	Under "How many people died ..." you open up with a section from the
>Spotlight for some reason.  The reason is clear.  To dispell any
>notions that the Jewish community was the prime mover in the Holocaust
>saturation over the years, and that anyone who disagreed was labeled
>an anti-Semite.  

Quite aside from your failure to accurately reference the page(s) you
are attempting to cite - and your highly questionable and
unsubstantiated assertion that "the reason is clear" -  your choice of
words such as "the Jewish community was the prime mover in the
Holocaust saturation..." (whatever this phrase is _intended_ to mean)
leaves one with the distinct impression that you have perhaps already
closed your mind to the reality of the overwhelming body of evidence
that leaves no doubt that the Holocaust did occur.

Similarly, the "arguments" you are attempting to raise vis a vis the
number of people murdered by the Nazi regime are no more than echoes
of those put forth by countless of your predecessors in alt.
revisionism.  Such "arguments" have been refuted with regularity,
clarity and substance.  Those refutations can be found in the FAQ's on
Nizkor and are frequently posted to alt.revisionism (often in their
entirety, and sometimes  excerpted as responses to specific
questions). It is your privilege to ignore them if you so choose.

In short, Mr. Moran, this ground has been covered many times.  As has
the ground you travel in the concluding paragraphs of your letter.
You are choosing to follow the road-map laid out by those who -
lacking evidence for their "arguments" - resort to lies, half-truths,
distortions, fabrications and vitriolic innuendo.

We are fortunate to live in countries (you in the US and I in Canada)
in which your views (however ill-informed - or based on faulty
premises - they might be) as well as those of people who _do_ take the
time and trouble to inform themselves by reading more reliable sources
than Bradley Smith or Ernst Zundel (regardless of how abhorrent I
might find their demonstrated intellectual dishonesty and
ill-disguised agendas) can be voiced.  

Your baseless concluding accusation that "the Holocaust faction
[whatever that might be] tries hard to stiffle (sic) dissent" is in
itself a testimony to the fallacy of your argument - and to the
fallacies put forth by those whose views you attempt to paraphrase
throughout your letter.

If your writings have betrayed you by their failure to communicate
your genuine interest in a discussion, and if you can state your
"arguments" with greater clarity (including specific references and
appropriate citations thereof),  please do write again.  However, I
regret that I have neither the time nor the inclination to weed
through seemingly pointless ramblings and/or to enter into semantic
arguments similar to those you have previously initiated in alt.
revisionism.



>Subject:     Nizkor invite accepted
>Sent:        11/07  4:24 PM
>Received:    11/08  9:14 AM
>From:        tom moran, tm@pacificnet.net
>To:          jamie@voyager.net

[end e-mail to Tom Moran, 06:31 PM 11/09/95]



Those sure were the good old days, weren't they Mr. Moran?  And you
are so fortunate to have had such excellent teachers.  That URL again:

ftp://ftp.eye.net/pub/nizkor/people/m/moran.tom/1995/moran.1195

hro

=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sat Jul  6 12:40:33 PDT 1996
Article: 48684 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nyiszli's Memoirs of Auschwitz
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 1996 06:04:53 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 43
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References:  <4rkr13$gam@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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In <4rkr13$gam@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
wrote:

[lengthy discussion snipped]

>Noting however that Nyiszli contains numerous errors of dimension that are
>clearly wrong, numerous claims that appear exaggerated, and numerous
>claims with regards to pits and cremation capacities which correlate with
>USSR-8 but not with existing scholarship in this field, I conclude that
>the text should be used with extreme care and that, when so doing, it's
>affinity to the Soviet State Commission and its errors should be clearly
>stated.

Noting however that in his time here Ehrlich has made countless errors
of fact that are clearly wrong, numerous claims that he refuses to
substantiate and expresses opinions which, although contrary to known
facts, he excuses under the rubric of skepticism (possibly because his
books are in the attic),  I conclude that his text should be used with
extreme care and that, when so doing, it's affinity to the party line
of "revisionism" and its errors should be clearly stated.

>In addition, if we are going to use Nyiszli, Tauber, and USSR-8 as base
>documents, then testimony that contradicts the major assertions of these
>three should be considered suspect.  Finally, we should recognize that the
>death tolls for at least Nyiszli and USSR-8 are totally imaginary.

In addition, if we are going to give Ehrlich any credence, we should
bear in mind that the archives of this newsgroup are littered with
threads that he has left dangling - while questions addressed to him
remain unanswered and refutations of his arguments are unacknowledged.
Finally, we should recognize that the posting behaviour of a boorish
foul-mouthed troll for at least Ehrlich and DvdThomas is totally
acceptable and that they imagine he is worthy of respect.

hro


=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sat Jul  6 13:44:10 PDT 1996
Article: 48700 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Official Nizkor Code of Responding
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 1996 10:38:27 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 33
Distribution: world
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References: <31dd2d66.2390610@news.pacificnet.net>
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In <31dd2d66.2390610@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran aka the denier in search of a persona) wrote:

[Moran's recycled distortion deleted.  It has been corrected and
placed in context several times in the past.]

>	
>	Actually, it is a childish ploy for evasion. Hilary has never, as
>far as I know, posted anything of substance.	Of course she could come
>back and post some of her stuff to rebuke this claim. Okay Hillary, go
>for it.

Indeed, and we are getting very tired of your tedious childish evasive
ploys, Mr. Moran. Although I do find it interesting that you should
claim to be able to recognize substance when you see it.  I shall not
rebuke you for this claim, although the refutation can be found at:

ftp://ftp.eye.net/pub/nizkor/people/m/moran.tom

And, btw, I never rebuke claims.  It isn't the fault of the claim that
it is wrong.  Rather it is the fault of the poster.   But I do refute
claims - and have on occasion been known to rebuke the poster.

However, I have accepted your invitation.  You will find my response
in the Topic: "Poster's Progress."

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sun Jul  7 09:53:24 PDT 1996
Article: 48794 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Nizkor
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 1996 04:06:46 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 67
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4rnd0v$out@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <31d921ee.5817326@news.pacificnet.net> <31de6f60.521457@news.pacificnet.net> <31de7928.3025928@news.pacificnet.net> <31dec774.16009484@news.pacificnet.net>
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In <31dec774.16009484@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran aka the denier in search of a persona) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>      Yet another idiotic, inconsequential meaningless response from
>Hilary.  July 6, 1996  

You think so do you, Mr. Moran?  [My but your spelling is showing
marked signs of improvement! Congratulations!]  Anyway, this sounds
like a very serious indictment, especially from you.  I'll take
another look.

>"
>Noting however that in his time here Ehrlich has made countless errors
>of fact that are clearly wrong, numerous claims that he refuses to
>substantiate and expresses opinions which, although contrary to known
>facts, he excuses under the rubric of skepticism (possibly because his
>books are in the attic),  I conclude that his text should be used with
>extreme care and that, when so doing, it's affinity to the party line
>of "revisionism" and its errors should be clearly stated.


>In addition, if we are going to give Ehrlich any credence, we should
>bear in mind that the archives of this newsgroup are littered with
>threads that he has left dangling - while questions addressed to him
>remain unanswered and refutations of his arguments are unacknowledged.
>Finally, we should recognize that the posting behaviour of a boorish
>foul-mouthed troll for at least Ehrlich and DvdThomas is totally
>acceptable and that they imagine he is worthy of respect.
>                                                         "
>hro

Hmmm, well, I see that you've removed the context [each of these
paragraphs _was_ a *response* to a paragraph of Ehrlich's].  But I'm
not sure what your problem is.  Maybe as a "stand-alone" I should
modify the first sentence of the first paragraph by deleting the first
three words (i.e. "Noting however that") and commence the paragraph
thusly:

"In his time here ...."

Perhaps you would also like me to amend the last sentence of the last
paragraph to read:

"Finally, we should recognize that the posting behaviour of a boorish
foul-mouthed troll - and that of the proven hate-filled anti-Semite,
Tom Moran - for at least Erhlich and David Thomas is totally
acceptable and that they imagine Moran and the troll are worthy of
respect."

E-mail a copy to Ehrlich for me, will you Mr. Moran (I don't seem to
have his address handy).  If he has no problem with these proposed
changes, and if it will make you happy, hey, that's fine with me.  

Oh, btw, thanks for your tacit agreement with the substance of my
remarks.  I'm sure that if you did not agree you would have attempted,
in your inimitable fashion, to provide a refutation.

hro

=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sun Jul  7 09:53:26 PDT 1996
Article: 48841 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Nizkor
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 1996 01:09:18 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 48
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4rn2k9$o9s@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <31d921ee.5817326@news.pacificnet.net> <31de6f60.521457@news.pacificnet.net> <31de7928.3025928@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0220.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <31de7928.3025928@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran aka the denier in search of a persona) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


It is somewhat telling that even though he provides the above
attribution, Moran has in fact said nothing!

>	More of Hilary, 7/6/1996

>"Indeed, Mr. Mittleman, you and Mr. Kelley would appear to be
>excellent
>teachers!  

>Just the other day I was perusing my documentation for "The Morphing
>of Tom Moran." [I'm sorry to report, btw, that both the NY and LA
>Times have rejected this serialized manuscript - to which I offered
>them first rights.  They said my writing was great, but that - despite
>all the documented evidence provided in my text - none of their
>respective readers would ever believe that such a twit actually exists
>in either the real or the virtual world]

>Lest we not *fully* appreciate just how _far_ Mr. Moran has come since
>his pre-literacy phase, I offer the following repost of my response to
>one of his earlier "efforts." "  

Ever hear of "full disclosure" Li'l Tommy?  No, I didn't think so.
For the record the above excerpt is from my post, "Poster's Progress",
which can be found elsewhere in this newsgroup.

But at least he got the date right.  Now that could be called
progress, I suppose.

Seems to me that Moran is aiming for the record as the most prolific
C&CF (content & context free) poster of the week.  This is probably
not the best week for him to do this, as he appears to have
considerable competition among the ranks of those who share some of
his misguided persuasions.

hro

=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sun Jul  7 09:53:27 PDT 1996
Article: 48842 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: A Pointed Question from the Denier in Search of a Persona (Re: The Official Nizkor Code of Responding)
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 1996 01:09:20 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 38
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4rn2kb$o9s@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <31dd2d66.2390610@news.pacificnet.net> <4rlfjo$hq4@atlas.uniserve.com> <31de7421.1739255@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0220.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <31de7421.1739255@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) wrote:

>hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:

>>Indeed, and we are getting very tired of your tedious childish evasive
>>ploys, Mr. Moran.

>	Who is "we" Hilary?  

Since there appear to be a few (possibly several and, indeed maybe
many) threads with the same name (all started by you know who) I
thought I would rename this particular post.  The pause that
refreshes, so to speak.

[I shall refrain from observing that the correct formulation of the
question should be "Who are 'we', Hilary?"]

It is unfortunate that Mr. Moran seems to have overlooked his mentor's
exhortation to "Play Ball!"   If Mr. Moran's powers of observation
were such that he had sufficient skills to "read the newsgroup", he
would not feel the need to ask this particular question.

However, since he has put the question. so to speak, I  invite those
who count themselves among the "we" to so identify themselves.  Such
identification will provide a program by which Mr. Moran *may* be able
to *tell the players.*

Thank you for your co-operation in this educational effort (above and
beyond the call of duty)

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Mon Jul  8 08:50:06 PDT 1996
Article: 48888 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!van-bc!van.istar!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Seven Questions Matt Giwer won't answer (Round 4)
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 1996 22:06:07 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 27
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4rpc8u$1bv@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4risjp$6o3@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4rkt9f$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4rmb1q$frp@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <31E0072E.1B9E@unb.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0208.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <31E0072E.1B9E@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison  wrote:

>Derek Bell wrote:
>> 
>>         Not only did Matt Giwer refuse to answer the questions Ken asked, he
>> seems to have posted a copyright violation (i.e. the Monty Python spam sketch).

>Well he had to post the original sketch because he's tried once
>to do a parody of this newsgroup using Python as a basis and quite
>frankly it wasn't funny.  He hopes that by posting real funny material,
>albeit having nothing to do with anything, he might get a laugh.

>AS opposed to the hysterical laughter which greets one of his "serious"
>posts.

Indeed.  However, even the hysterical laughter has subsided in recent
months because his "serious" posts are nothing more than recycled old
ones.  And IMHO his current crop of recyclings belongs more in the
realm of DejaVues than in "hysterical laughter" generation.

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Mon Jul  8 08:50:06 PDT 1996
Article: 48902 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Neither Scholar nor Gentleman (Re: The Return of the Prodigal Poster  - Faustian Follies?)
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 1996 07:25:37 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
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I'm surprised that the cobbler hasn't learned that every post has its
place. Amazing how one can lose track of a thread if one tries.  

Readers will note that he chose to edit the headers prior to posting
the response below, so I am re-posting it here.  Just for the record,
and for the convenience of those readers who wish to remind themselves
of any salient points that Ehrlich has chosen to ignore (and possibly
was hoping other readers would forget).  

Seems to me there are a number of points he's missed.  But then, this
is what we have come to expect from him.   He seems so bent on talking
about himself and defending/whitewashing the boorish foul-mouthed
troll.  Quite telling what he chooses to remind himself of.  What
comes to my mind is "methinks he doth protest too much."

Oh, well, maybe Ehrlich was just trying to demonstrate his "impressive
intellect, rapier wit, and comprehensive knowledge" for the
cyberladies in his fan club.  I wonder how *impressed* they will be
with this [tm] apology.  

Personally, I found it self-serving, side-stepping, insincere and very
underwhelming.  But then, as he has acknowledged, people are judeged
"solely by the content of what they say."  And this is what we have
come to expect from him.

hro

=======
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Neither Scholar nor Gentleman (Re: The Return of the
Prodigal Poster  - F...
Date: 5 Jul 1996 10:25:18 -0400
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In article <4rij7u$7fb@atlas.uniserve.com>, hostrov@uniserve.com
(Hilary
Ostrov) writes:

>Subject:	Neither Scholar nor Gentleman (Re: The Return of the
Prodigal Poster
>- Faustia
>From:	hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
>Date:	Fri, 05 Jul 1996 08:21:51 GMT
>
>In <4rht29$g6r@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
>wrote:
>
>>In article ,
>>jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) writes:
>
>>>[etc.]
>>>
>>>> Who said I was bitter?  Your co-web mistress indicated the means of
>>>> verifying my identity
>>>
>>>Um, "mistress"?
>>>
>>>That's awfully damn insulting, as I expect you know, since Giwer has
>>>stated repeatedly that the woman in question only has her job by virtue
>>>of bedding a couple of other people (me, for one).  You've managed to
>>>pointedly and, perhaps you think cleverly, underscore that insult.
>>>I'm afraid I'm not amused.
>>>
>>>I expect crap like that from Giwer -- he's only trolling after all --
>>>but I didn't expect it from you, Ehrlich.
>
>>Jamie, this is totally ridiculous.  I am insinuating nothing of the
kind,
>>in this by now week old post.  The fact is:  you, a male, are a
>>*Co-webmaster*.  Hilary, a female, is the same thing.  To _me_ to call a
>>female a *Co-webmaster* violates common sense gender titles.  That is
why
>>I called her *Co-webmistress.*  Nothing more.
>
>My how noble!  I suppose, in the interest of "common sense gender
>titles" Mr. Ehrlich would also have me change my resume to reflect
>that my degree is not a B.A. (Batchelor of Arts) but an S. A.
>(Spinster of Arts) and that had I chosen to do graduate work, I would
>have attained a Mistress of Arts degree, not a Master of Arts.
>
>Aside from the fact that the correct term - AND THAT WHICH I CHOOSE TO
>USE  - is Co-Webmaster, the fact is, Mr. Ehrlich (if you scroll back
>to the top of this message, you will see for yourself ) you did _not_
>call me a 'Co-webmistress'.  Your _specific words_ were:
>
>	Your co-web mistress indicated the means of verifying my identity
>
>Shall I spell it out for you?  Not *Co-webmistress* but *co-web
>mistress*  Now let me guess your next response:  are now going to
>complain that I'm berating you for your *typos*?  It won't wash! God
>forbid that Mr. Ehrlich should accept responsibility for his _own_
>words and apologize! 
>

You know, it is one thing to expect someone to apologize -- if they
feel like it -- for saying something personal, insulting, and cruel.
It is another thing to expect someone to apologize for saying
something innocuous that is _perceived_ as personal, insulting, and
cruel.  It is still another thing to expect someone to apologize for
something that is by itself innocuous but which other claim that the
_intent_ was personal, insulting, and cruel.

I know what was in my mind when I wrote the above passage -- whether
Co web mistress or co-webmistress -- and the last thing I was thinking
about was Hilary's personal life.  How many times do I have to say
that?  But people are going to believe what they want to believe.

I am reminded of an exchange a couple of weeks ago when I made a
remark -- under a Hilary quote from someone else -- about the Nizkor
Bunny keeps going, and going and going.  I was thinking about
repetitive posts from Nizkor and Nizkor affiliates.  But of course I
was accused of something else.  Naturally!

With regard to these comments, I cannot well apologize for intentions 
did not have.  The fact that the charges are repeated over and over is
not going to make that *intention* magically appear.

So now we look at the comments in light of the fact that they have
been _perceived_ as  personal, insulting, and cruel.  Well, in normal
life, if I say something and someone gets indignant, I say, wow,
didn't mean to offend you.  The rhetoric on this board, however, is
hardly normal.  But, OK, if you think *Co-web mistress* or
*Co-webmistress * is insulting, then I am sorry you are insulted.  I
wasn't trying to insult you.

Now, my position is that I didn't mean to say something hurtful or
cruel. Period.  If you want to think that, there is nothing I can do.
But while we are on the subject, I will note that many people on this
board have made repeated personal comments about Matt, referencing his
alleged mental health, his intelligence, his alleged drinking habits,
and on and on and on.  Anybody going to apologize for that?

What usually transpires is that someone will be decent -- if memory
serves, it is usually Mike Stein -- who will step forward and be nice.

But such interjections are few and far between.

========


=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Mon Jul  8 08:50:07 PDT 1996
Article: 48933 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Do Real Men Scream? (was Re: 'I was afraid of Bothmann
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 1996 21:23:18 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 26
Distribution: world
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References:  <4orht7$39v@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <4p0jab$opp@shiva.usa.net> <4p0u1v$94c@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <4p627v$egq@access4.digex.net> <4p7em6$ie3@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4p9tpq$9be@arl-news-svc-3.compuserve.com> <4pad10$4cu@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4pfk9 <4qvr62$kfb@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4r9s7o$37t6@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> 
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In , mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark
Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <4r9s7o$37t6@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net wrote:

>> In article <4qvr62$kfb@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>> said:
>> 
>> 
>> >       Poor me.  I just don't have the access to a mess of psyrinks to
>poll on
>> >the subject.  Why is it that I am always the one who lacks access to the
>> >people you folks can get to in an instant?  
>> 
>> Dear me.  I do hope Mr. McVay is out there somewhere, able to translate this
>> latest contribution.  A "psyrink".

>A psychiatric skating rink? 

Quite likely, Mark!  After all, the troll is always on very thin ice!
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Mon Jul  8 08:50:08 PDT 1996
Article: 48934 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Official Nizkor Code of Responding
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 1996 21:23:19 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 39
Distribution: world
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References: <31dd2d66.2390610@news.pacificnet.net> <4rlfjo$hq4@atlas.uniserve.com> <4rnh0i$8tf@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
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In <4rnh0i$8tf@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt
Giwer) wrote:

>On Sat, 06 Jul 1996 10:38:27 GMT, hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
>wrote:

>>In <31dd2d66.2390610@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>>moran aka the denier in search of a persona) wrote:

>>[Moran's recycled distortion deleted.  It has been corrected and
>>placed in context several times in the past.]

>>>	
>>>	Actually, it is a childish ploy for evasion. Hilary has never, as
>>>far as I know, posted anything of substance.	Of course she could come
>>>back and post some of her stuff to rebuke this claim. Okay Hillary, go
>>>for it.

>>Indeed, and we are getting very tired of your tedious childish evasive
>>ploys, Mr. Moran. 

>	Who is this "we" are you are speaking for?  

Not to worry, Giwer-troll.  I wasn't including you in the "we".  If
you had been following the newsgroup you would have figured that out
all by yourself.  And your friend has already beaten you to the punch
on this *brilliant* pointed question.

I have started a new thread to address this question.  With your 163
IQ, you should have no difficulty figuring out which one it is.

hro

=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Mon Jul  8 08:50:09 PDT 1996
Article: 48935 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Nizkor
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 1996 21:23:23 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 28
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4rp9oq$15r@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <31d921ee.5817326@news.pacificnet.net> <31de6f60.521457@news.pacificnet.net> <31de7928.3025928@news.pacificnet.net> <31dec774.16009484@news.pacificnet.net> <31dfc172.1503736@news.pacificnet.net> <31dfc461.2254781@news.pacificnet.net>
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In <31dfc461.2254781@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran aka the denier in search of a persona) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>	Not only is Hilary so stupid as to post her examples in other
>threads, where Moran simply spirits them away to pastes them in her
>ongoing alt.rev. dossier "The Best of Nizkor", she comes out and
>pastes her own.

Hmmm ... very interesting Mr. Moran.  I suppose you think I must be
absolutely *crushed* by your characterization of my posting behaviour.
Well, I'm really sorry to disappoint you, but I rather think that your
comments, insults and "descriptions" tell us _far_ more about _you_
and _your_ abilities (or lack thereof)  than they do about me or mine.

But by all means, don't let that stop you from continuing to shoot
yourself in the foot.  Don't let it bother you in the slightest that
your "case" - as context-free as it is - is about as solid as a house
of cards.

"Spirit and paste" to your heart's content, Mr. Moran.  
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Mon Jul  8 08:50:09 PDT 1996
Article: 48936 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Perry Broad Testifies About Auschwitz
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 1996 21:23:24 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 82
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4rp9os$15r@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <177BCD29DS86.BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU> <4rnpj3$gnj@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <177BDBB81S86.BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
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In <177BDBB81S86.BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>, BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
(borowsky) wrote:

>In article <4rnpj3$gnj@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
>ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) writes:
> 
>>
>>In article <177BCD29DS86.BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>, BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
>>(borowsky) writes:
>>
>>>Subject:       Re: Perry Broad Testifies About Auschwitz
>>>From:  BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU (borowsky)
>>>Date:Sat, 06 Jul 96 14:58:36 EDT
>>>
>>>In article <4rjvdb$64t@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
>>>ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) writes:
>>>
>>>"Contradicts":  Hardly.  Mauve is a shade between blue and purple.  Broad
>>>says blue; Nyiszli says mauve.  The difference is in the degree of
>>>observation,
>>>not in the hue and color.
>>
>>From whence do you define mauve as between blue and purple?  Because of
>>the ROY G. BIV color spectrum, no doubt.  I don't think so.  *Mauve* is
>>the French word for *mallow* (btw, Malve in German) it means those
>>clusters you will find on those plants in swampy waters and which by
>>association are given to the corn syrup treat -- *marshmallows.*  Mauve is
>>a color that has purple and tannish highlights, from my experience.
> 
>Not the mauve I grew up on.

Setting aside the fact that the perceived _colour_ of the pellets has
little bearing (in fact none that I can see) on the reality of the
_use_ of pellets, it is also possible that differences in perception
of colour can be attributed to a variant of colour-blindness.  If
memory serves me correctly, the incidence of colour-blindness in males
is approximately 1:10. (There is considerable literature available
addressing this issue.)

[text deleted for brevity]

> 
>>Peas imply spheres to me.  That seems natural and unforced.
> 
>To you.  But it's reasonable that they could have simply referred to dimension
>though.

Not only is it reasonable, Mr. Borowsky!  But, as Ehrlich is well
aware, the reference _was_ to "pea-sized."  One might wonder why
Ehrlich continues to pursue this particular train of "thought", when
yesterday, elsewhere on this same Topic, Mr. McCarthy
 pointed out the
following:



>Ehrlich, you claimed that a description of size ("pea-sized")
>contradicts a description of the substance as angular.  This is
>obviously wrong, and Mr. Van Alstine pointed out that you were wrong.
>
>Your response was to sarcastically attack a straw-man parody of his
>argument, namely that "pea-sized" is _exactly_ the word one would use.



For the record, Ehrlich _has_ responded to Mr. McCarthy's post:
<4rnedv$dso@newsbf02.news.aol.com>.  I shall refrain from expressing
my opinion of this response from Ehrlich - other than to state that it
is what I have come to expect from him.   I have articulated my
reasons elsewhere.

Posted/e-mailed to Mr. Borowsky, Ehrlich and Mr. McCarthy

hro


=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Mon Jul  8 08:50:10 PDT 1996
Article: 48937 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 01:53:24 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 33
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4rppj0$3cu@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4rc02l$kj9@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> <4rhbbi$oe4@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>  <4rknkp$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> 
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In , dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:


>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:

># Save there is PHYSICAL evidence of a burned Dresden 

>We are still waiting to see it. You have yet to provide such
>"physical evidence" which would pass the "revisionist" standards
>applied when evidence to the Holocaust is given.

>Provide it, or shut up.

>As long as you don't provide it, you are also "proving" (by
>an extension of your "revisionist arguments") that Dresden was
>not bombed.

># of mass extermination at Belsen.

>I think you're confusing Belsen and Belzec. Please check this
>before you're making further claims about Belsen (which are, of
>course, irrelevant to Belzec).

Indeed. Perhaps causing one to wonder for whom the bel trolls;>)

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Mon Jul  8 08:50:11 PDT 1996
Article: 48946 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust Almanac - I.G. Farben's Auschwitz Diet...
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 1996 21:23:20 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 65
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4rp9on$15r@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4rlgvo$jkn@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4rnhq4$i03@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0124.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <4rnhq4$i03@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt
Giwer) wrote:

>On 6 Jul 1996 04:00:08 -0700, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay
>OBC) wrote:

>>Archive/File: orgs/german/farben.ig farben.002
>>Last-modified: 1993/10/24
>>See Also: holocaust diet.01

>>   I.G. Auschwitz: I.G. Farben's Buna (synthetic rubber) division, built
>>   near the site of the Auschwitz I and Auschwitz II concentration
>>   camps. (Farben eventually built their own corporate concentration
>>   camp at the site, to eliminate the need to march prisoners several
>>   miles to and from the Buna plant every day, as had been the practice.
>>   It was known as Monowitz, and had a sign over the gate which read
>>   "Arbeit Macht Frei.")

>>[Editor's note: I understand that the "Arbeit Macht Frei" sign can be seen
>>today over the gate at Auschwitz I - this raises the question of whether or
>>not there were more than one, or if the one the author mentions was moved to
>>Auschwitz I at a later date, or if the author was simply incorrect. knm]

>>   "Starvation was a permanent guest at Auschwitz.  The diet fed to I.G.
>>   Auschwitz inmates, which included the famous 'Buna Soup' - a
>>   nutritional aid not available to other prisoners - resulted in an
>>   average weight loss for each individual of about six and a half to
>>   nine pounds a week.  At the end of a month, the change in the
>>   prisoner's appearance was marked; at the end of two months, the
>>   inmates were not recognizable except as caricatures formed of skin,
>>   bones, and practically no flesh; after three months, they were either
>>   dead or so unfit for work that they were marked for release to the
>>   gas chambers at Birkenau.  Two physicians who studied the effect of
>>   the I.G.  diet on the inmates noticed that 'the normally nourished
>>   prisoner at Buna could make up the deficiency by his own body for a
>>   period of three months....The prisoners were condemned to burn up
>>   their own body weight while working and, providing no infections
>>   occurred, finally died of exhaustion.'">   others - typical SS Auschwitz punishment reports> (Borkin, 125)


>>                            Work Cited

>>   Borkin, Joseph. The Crime and Punishment of I.G. Farben. New York: 
>>   The Free Press, 1978, and London: Macmillan Publishing Company. 

>	It is rather laughable that anyone would believe this kind of story.  

The Giwer-troll provides further corroboration of Mike Stein's
assessment in another thread that he (the troll)  lacks the intellect,
intelligence or comprehension skills to be able to contribute in any
meaningful way in a discussion of the history of the Holocaust.  

If anything is laughable it is that the troll deludes himself by
thinking that he is capable of participating in any debate.

[balance snipped]

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Mon Jul  8 08:50:12 PDT 1996
Article: 48950 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!cs.umd.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!newsgate.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!van-bc!van.istar!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 3,000,000 Prewar Polish Jews?
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 1996 21:24:02 GMT
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In <31dfcc8b.4344732@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran aka the denier in search of a persona) wrote:

[drivellous diatribe deleted]

>	My general rule in viewing Holocaust numbers is, if they are set
>big to magnify the story I divide them by 10 and if they are set small
>to facilitate the story I multiply them by 10. 		 

Hmmm ... and would this be called "The Rule of Tom's Thumb" or "Tom's
Rule of Thumb"?

"Revisionist scholarship".  Amazing!  Simply amazing!

hro


=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Tue Jul  9 07:36:46 PDT 1996
Article: 49113 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.edu.tw!nctuccca.edu.tw!spring.edu.tw!serv.hinet.net!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!news.mid.net!newsfeeder.gi.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Well designed mass gassing chambers
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 1996 21:23:22 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 99
Distribution: world
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In <4rnpb7$gj3@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
wrote:

>In article <6JUL199614233268@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>,
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) writes:

>>    Mr. Ehrlich, I would like to add that as I read your exchanges with
>>    others on this board, the sentiments stated below summarize my
>>    impressions as well.
>>
>>    Danny

And mine also ...

>>In article <4rmevt$5qm@elaine41.Stanford.EDU>,
>redcloud@leland.Stanford.EDU
>>(Richard James Green) writes...
>>>Mr. Ehrlich,
>>> 
>>>Thank you for your reply.  I would like to try to explain why you have
>>>received so much heat from this board.  I think you are wrong to assert
>>>that the people you call conventionalists are not interested in finding
>>>truth on this board as opposed to winning an argument.  It's true that
>>>real intellectual discussion of these topics belongs elsewhere, but that
>>>doesn't mean that conventionalists are not willing to follow the truth
>>>wherever it reads.
>>> 
>>>The problem with your posts is that they are like a broken record that
>>>he have heard so many times before.  Express doubts, but do not offer
>>>any substance to support them.  When challenged on a substantive issue,
>>>you tend to remain silent.  If there is no substance behind your doubts,
>>>then it is hard to see why you are not just a smarter version of Matt
>>>Giwer.  I am not asserting this to be the case by the way; I am trying
>>>to explain to you what your contributions appear to be.
>>> 
>>>Your habit of criticizing the "conventionalists"  and not recognizing
>>>the blatant anti-Semitism of Moran, Huber etc. lend credence to the
>>>claim that you are a denier in smarter clothing (like Bob Hunt, Bradley
>>>Smith etc.).  Your tendency to oversimplify the "conventionalist"
>>>position looks a lot like Greg Raven's practice.
>>> 
>>>Your defense of Matt Giwer is simply appalling.  I find it hard to
>>>believe that any reasonable person of goodwill could make the statements
>>>that you've made about Matt Giwer. Luckily, your statements about Matt
>>>Giwer are on file at Nizkor.
>>> 
>>>I hope this post might help you understand your reception on this
>>>newsgroup.
>>> 
>>>Regards,
>>> 
>>>Rich Green
>>
>>

>Sorry, Rich and Dan, but I was getting reamed on this group long before I
>rose to Matt's defense.  Indeed, for over a month I criticized Matt and
>others for what I considered antisemitism. 

I do recall seeing approximately two such mild rebukes from Ehrlich.
But hardly anything that I would consider a reflection of one who has
a strong distaste for expression by others of anti-Semitic/racist
sentiments.  Then again, perhaps Ehrlich has his own definition of
anti-Semitism.  Perhaps he would care to share with us his definition
as well as reposting these purported criticisms.  Just to refresh our
memory.

>My reward was to get pummeled
>for my rather mild essays in synthetic history.  

Synthetic is indeed quite an apt desciption of these "essays", which
as I recall were marked with ambiguities.  But  "pummeled"?  Does
questioning assertions and requesting citations constitute "pummeling"
according Ehrlich's rules of the game?

>So -- I will post what's
>on my mind and I will not attack those who do not attack me.

>From  what I have seen, Ehrlich is quick to take umbrage at anything
_he_ perceives as a "wrong" (or an attack) on him - regardless of the
_intent_, context or circumstances - and to use such *slights,*
_after_ they have been dealt with, in such a way as to lead the reader
to believe they have not. 

Yet, he is _extremely_ reluctant to admit that any of his _own_ words
could be perceived by others as insulting, sexist or inappropriate and
uncalled for.  In such cases it seems that _his_ intent (which he
customarily does not explain until well after the fact) is all that
matters.

Am I the only one who sees a double standard here?

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Tue Jul  9 12:46:19 PDT 1996
Article: 49216 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.edu.tw!nctuccca.edu.tw!spring.edu.tw!serv.hinet.net!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!news.mid.net!newsfeeder.gi.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Well designed mass gassing chambers
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 1996 21:23:17 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 35
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4rp9ok$15r@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4rguel$auj@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU> <4rmbft$2be@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4rmevt$5qm@elaine41.Stanford.EDU> <4rnh0g$8tf@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <4rnh0g$8tf@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt
Giwer) wrote:

>On 6 Jul 1996 12:32:13 -0700, redcloud@leland.Stanford.EDU (Richard
>James Green) wrote:

>>Mr. Ehrlich,

>>Your defense of Matt Giwer is simply appalling.  I find it hard to
>>believe that any reasonable person of goodwill could make the statements
>>that you've made about Matt Giwer. Luckily, your statements about Matt
>>Giwer are on file at Nizkor.

>	What is "lucky" about that?  Please explain.  

Giwer-troll, you could try reading the paragraph you cited.  Try to
stretch your attention span to a full minute.  

But while we are on this subject, I would add that it is also
fortunate that the statements are on file, in the event that Ehrlich
chooses a month or so from now to insist that he *never* made such
statements.  He has been known to do this.  And it is interesting to
note that when Ehrlich is proven wrong, he adopts the troll's inept
posturing.  

Perhaps this is why he feels the need to make such indefensible
statements about the troll.


=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Wed Jul 10 06:53:05 PDT 1996
Article: 49333 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust Almanac - I.G. Farben "labour problems" at Monowitz
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 04:54:09 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
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In <4rut7h$48q@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
wrote:

>In article <4rte3o$nhr@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
>(Ken McVay OBC) writes:

I was unable to locate the particular post referred to above on my
server. Those who are interested in the topic of "I.G. Farben labour
problems at Monowitz" may wish to view the archive file from which the
text has been excerpted by Ehrlich. 

ftp://ftp.eye.net/pub/nizkor/orgs/german/farben.ig/farben.005

"Summary: I.G. Farben management complains that the S.S. is killing
too many Jews among those shipped to Auschwitz, and productivity is
suffering because of this."

>>This citation sheds some light on the discussions surrounding the
>>   effect of German economic policy upon the Jews, in that it documents
>>   I.G. Farben's complaints that too many Jews were being "selected"
>>   upon arrival at Auschwitz, i.e. sent to the extermination chambers,
>>   and that productivity was suffering as a result.
>>
>>   I do not, I should add, accept that this means that those who assert
>>   that Schact's (Reichsbank president) economic policies, rather than
>>   Hitler's rabid anti-Semitism, destroyed the Jews are correct. While
>>   the personal greed of Farben's managers certainly played a major role
>>   in the Holocaust, it seems clear that at no time was it permitted to
>>   substantially impact upon Hitler's desire to destroy the Jews at any
>>   given time. (Even if Schact's policies _did_ enhance the application
>>   of Hitler's anti-Semitic agenda, it was, I believe, entirely
>>   consistent with reality: Schact was simply another Nazi thug, doing
>>   exactly what he was told to do. Doing anything else, I might add,
>>   would probably have gotten him killed.

The introduction continues:

"In his chapter entitled "Slave Labor and Mass Murder," some of which
is reproduced below, Borkin discusses the continuing conflicts
 between I.G. Auschwitz labor requirements and the need to resolve the
"Final Solution" quickly and efficiently. Even at the risk of denying
the German military machine sufficient rubber and petroleum products
to support the war effort, the Jews arriving at Auschwitz must be
ruthlessly destroyed..."

>I am not sure what is being said here.  Hjalmar Schacht was dismissed as
>head of the Reichsbank on January 19, 1939.  He was not a member of the
>Nazi Party.  He was tried at Nuremberg under Counts 1 and 2 only and was
>acquitted.  He was imprisoned by Hitler in the KZ system after the 20 July
>Plot.  So how is he *simply another Nazi thug* and what does this have to
>do with the Auschwitz complex.  (cf. Telford Taylor, *Anatomy of Nuremberg
>Trials*, p. 591f)

Unless I am mistaken "Monowitz" was part of the Auschwitz complex. I
do not have Taylor's book so I cannot fathom Ehrlich's point here.
Perhaps others could comment on the accuracy of Ehrlich's statements -
or whether they might benefit from some context.  Nonetheless readers
may decide for themselves whether Schact was deserving of being dubbed
as "simply another Nazi thug":

ftp://ftp.eye.net/pub/nizkor/people/s/schacht.hjalmar/

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Wed Jul 10 06:53:06 PDT 1996
Article: 49356 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor's  FTP Archive
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 05:10:40 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 33
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4rvds9$k4q@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <01bb6db8.2e18ae00$afded3c6@default>  <4rv8vo$c0m@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
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In <4rv8vo$c0m@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken
McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article , 
>jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) responded to "Duncan
>Coons:"

[text deleted for brevity]

>>> Consider the oddity of all this. Nizkor supports Anti-Racist Action--a
>>> violent gang of unbalanced thugs
>>[etc.]

>>And now you've gone from lies about us to lies about the Nizkor
>>organization.

>I always love that one... by the same brilliant rationale
>(that is, since we have a link, we "support" some site or
>other), I must assume that Nizkor also "supports" Stormfront,
>the Zundelsite, CODOH, the IHR, National Alliance, and all the
>other sites we provide links for.  

And of course, what proponents of the "linking=support argument"
conveniently overlook is that by the same brilliant rationale, we must
also assume that the Zundelsite and CODOH "support" Nizkor.

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Wed Jul 10 06:53:07 PDT 1996
Article: 49371 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a new approach
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 20:41:05 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 41
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4rug11$glv@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4r7ujb$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <31D8064F.7536@unb.ca> <4r9soi$d8o@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4ram58$s87@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4rqb11$59l@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <4rt1tv$51g@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
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In <4rt1tv$51g@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt
Giwer) wrote:

>On Mon, 08 Jul 96 12:45:59 GMT, @stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de wrote:

>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>>>
>>>	Good only Overtaken By Events shows up only to post the slurs while his
>>>dumbass flunkies he has permitted to call themselves "co-webmasters"
>>>pretend to speak for Nizkor when in fact they are only self-aggrandizing
>>>flunkies.

>>He's the right one to talk about "self-aggrandizing flunkies", isn't he?

>	And just who do you think I am beholding to in life?  

If the troll had a modicum of literacy, instead of the above he would
have written:

	"To whom do you think I am beholden in life?"

But in any event, it does seem highly unlikely that any
self-respecting person would _voluntarily_ choose to demonstrate the
ignorance, arrogance, dishonesty and total lack of any positive human
attributes - as frequently and consistently as does the troll.   

It would therefore not be unreasonable to think that there may well be
a piper calling his tune.   And if so, it must be an ironclad contract
too, because the troll's record is quite clear:  the piper is wasting
his money.  Rare is the troll-post that does not provide evidence of
one or more of his many inadequacies and/or failures in life.

hro


=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Wed Jul 10 06:53:08 PDT 1996
Article: 49372 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 20:41:14 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 46
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4rug19$glv@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4rs72o$nhe@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4rtr5n$jts@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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In <4rtr5n$jts@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
wrote:

[troll-text deleted for brevity and irrelevancy]

>One of the reasons I posted the information so fast when I found it was
>because there had been so many messages over the past several weeks on
>this seemingly minor issue.  But when I pointed out that a witness said
>*mauve* I was promptly asked, what difference does it make?

The reader will no doubt recall that, in fact, Ehrlich has been asked
many questions which he has promptly ignored.  In the above summary of
the discussion which ensued from his "mauve discovery" one would think
that he had conveniently forgotten that he was also given many
explanations.  One might ask why Ehrlich chose to omit mention of the
explanations and offer instead a picture that borders on martyrdom.

>There is a commitment to *blue* on this board, just as there is a
>commitment to *ERCO cubes*, but I haven't the slightest idea why.  [...]

I have seen no such "commitment[s]"  OTOH, Ehrlich's posts indicate
that he "[hasn't] the slightest idea":

o  of how to engage in *honest* debate

o  of basic courtesy and usenet etiquette

o  that support of a boorish and foul-mouthed troll discredits the
supporter repeatedly

o  that conspicuous silences and dangling threads tell us far more
than pompous self-serving ramblings 

o  that much-delayed explanations of the "intent" of obviously
ambiguous - but nonetheless demeaning - remarks, directed at another
participant of this newsgroup, insult the intelligence of the writer's
audience

hro

=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Wed Jul 10 17:15:00 PDT 1996
Article: 49490 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE SHUT DOWN
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 22:26:33 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 31
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4s1aig$pak@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <31e3a566.591102@news.pacificnet.net> <4s16p4$p99@news.enter.net>
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In <4s16p4$p99@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken)
wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:

>>  	You've heard of the term "writing between the lines" haven't you?

>	No.  At least not in the English language.


>>  Its a term that is recognized as meaning people will feign one thing
>>  but then write in innuendos. "Writing between the lines", a well known
>>  term. 

>	Since tehre is no such term it is neither well known nor is there no 
>recognized meaning for it.  It is,. apparently something you made up to justify your 
>lies.

Well, Yale, it is also possible that Li'l Tommy is warming up for
another endorsement from DvdThomas - or better yet, being given the
ultimate stamp of approval by a citation in one of Ingrid's Z-grams
(wherein he _was_ praised and quoted, albeit not by name, the other
day!)

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Thu Jul 11 07:22:04 PDT 1996
Article: 49547 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nyiszli's Memoirs of Auschwitz
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 02:36:31 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 28
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4s1p73$r7s@atlas.uniserve.com>
References:  <4rkr13$gam@newsbf02.news.aol.com>  <4rvhju$6th@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU> <4s1euc$4n6@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0224.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <4s1euc$4n6@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU>, rjg@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU (Richard
J. Green) wrote:

>In article <4rvhju$6th@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>,
>Richard J. Green  wrote:

>>84. Ho"ss, _Kommandant, p. 159.  The same preparation was used for the
>>delousing of clothes.  _Ibid._  Most documents relating to the shipment
>>of the gas [sic] to camps simply state Zyklon.  See, however, 1944
>>correspondance with B designation in documents NI-9909 and NI-9913.

>Which obviously solves the blueness issue, i.e. it was a Ho"ss of a
>different color.

ROFL .... and it brings to mind the following:

Roses are reddish, 
Violets are blueish
If it wasn't for Hitler
"Revisionism" would be trueish.

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Thu Jul 11 07:22:04 PDT 1996
Article: 49567 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Physical evidence
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 18:43:12 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 45
Distribution: world
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NNTP-Posting-Host: van0400.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <31E3D49C.3F8F@gryn.org>, Alec Grynspan  wrote:

[snip]

>Back to Matt Giwer:

>I was hoping to have a real demo to show the others in this newsgroup on
>how to defeat your contentions. I figured that they'd get an eye-opener.

Alec, as far as I can see, he defeats himself and his recycled
contentions  - and _proves_ his _lack_ of knowledge, civility,
intellect, honesty, comprehension and ability to reason - with every
post he makes.

His inept trolleries, specious word games, spurious "arguments" and
boorish, libellous, foul-mouthed invective are nothing more than a
waste of bandwidth.

He seems to think it's a game.  Well, as someone once said "small
things amuse small minds."  Even at that, he's a very inadequate
player.

Perhaps the _only_ useful purpose he has served is to confirm (for any
reasonable person who might have doubted it) just how devoid of
honesty the "revisionism" of Ehrlich and DvdThomas - who imagine that
he is worthy of respect and that his posts have some value - really
is!

>Instead, it would be an eye-closer. 

>Pity!

What's to pity?  He has no self-esteem, so?  Tough.  He's a grown man
(well, at least chronologically) and he's made his bed. Let him lie in
it.

Posted/e-mailed

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Thu Jul 11 07:22:05 PDT 1996
Article: 49568 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE SHUT DOWN
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 18:43:13 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 49
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4s0tfr$oaj@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <00002fc9+00008a90@msn.com>  <31e24b59.4583106@news.pacificnet.net>  <31e3a58c.628506@news.pacificnet.net>
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <31e3a58c.628506@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) wrote:

>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>>
>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>
>># It would be a tactical error for the likes of the former
>># professor, or the former impersonating professor, whichever 
>># the case may be, 
>>
>>Ah, that old inferiority complex kicks in. Perhaps you'll
>>clarify your statement about me being an "impersonating professor"?

>	The worm went out and you bit. By "impersonating professor" I
>mean that for months I referred to you as "professor" or "the
>professor", and suddenly, after my addressing you as that scores of
>times,  you informed me you weren't really a professor but some kind
>of engineer.


>>
>># to come out and downright endorse the censorship. Any
>># statement he says in support of free speech I see as just 
>># a tacit approval to give the illusion he is for free speech. 
>>
>>So, nazi-boy, it doesn't matter what I say, it only matters
>>what you think I really mean? 

>I only think what you mean by putting all my experiences with your
>stuff ahead of your statement that you support free speech. Many
>people say something, then when you look at their whole, it implies
>something else. Look, you have called me a Nazi again. Your associated
>with defending the Holocaust, you are associated with web sites that
>imply the Nazi connection to denierism, those people are avctively
>involved with trying to block the discussion. "Birds of a feather,
>flock together". If you rant on scores of posts and then say something
>that doesn't fit with the majority, then I think whatever I think.

Think?  Moran "thinks"? It seems to me that the above "mini-rant"
clearly demonstrates (for the umpteenth time) that Moran _lacks_ the
ability to "think."
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Thu Jul 11 07:22:06 PDT 1996
Article: 49643 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hagen Responds
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 21:42:58 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 67
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4s180q$p3d@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4rvcn0$bsp@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <4rvcn0$bsp@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, brlhagen@aol.com (Brlhagen)
wrote:

>Mittelman, Kelley, and Ehrlich in the last few days responded to my
>article, "REVISIONISM DEFINED" and I hereby put forth a further response
>to them.  I will not engage (beyond this sentence) in a saliva-lobbing
>contest with McVay (who appears to be a charlatan) nor with Borowsky (who
>apparently is locked into a junior high school mind-set).  

>Regretfully, I find that you ignored many of my points or distorted them. 
>So I will feel free to ignore your specific points and respond generally. 
>(Though I will work diligently not to distort what you have said.)  

Sorry, Mr. Hagen.  Like many who read your initial salvo and the
responses to which you refer, I find that your assertion is patently
untrue.  It would appear that this "omnibus" response of yours is
built on many false premises.  And frankly if, as you claim, the
remainder of your post is a demonstration of your "diligence," then
one might reasonably conclude that you are somewhat short in the
"diligence" department.   I would add that your name-calling says far
more about you than about those whom you would dismiss by such ad
hominem attacks.

Perhaps you would like to start again, and this time it would _really_
help if you would be courteous enough to include the specifics (along
with citations) which elucidate the points you are attempting to make.

[much text deleted in the interest of bandwidth conservation]

>[...] If someday
>the existence of gas chambers is proved definitively I will alter my view
>and renounce Holocaust revisionism.  

The only inference I can draw from your minimizing "apologia" and
conclusion is that - like so many before you - you have _chosen_ to
deliberately ignore the mountain of evidence and testimony that _is_
available. This evidence and testimony has been rigourously examined
by those who have the skills to do so. They have concluded - beyond
all shadow of a doubt - that gas chambers were, indeed, both present
and used as one of the instruments of the Nazi Holocaust which
resulted in the murder of approximately 12 million innocent people -
about half of whom were Jewish.

And - like all reasonable people - I'll take their view over yours
anyday, Mr. Hagen.

>And I will congratulate you for being
>correct all along.  But my very honest view is that I'm quite safe from
>such humiliation.  Are you?

Your "very honest view"?  Oh, dear!  I rather think that those who
hold and present an "honest view" would have no need to so proclaim.
To my mind, "honest views" are usually self-evident.  

If your view were "honest" you would, instead of merely "dismissing"
the evidence, present a logical and rational _alternative_ explanation
of the facts.  But to the extent that you have declined to do so, I
shall concede that you are among those who mistakenly call themselves
"revisionists."

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Thu Jul 11 13:11:50 PDT 1996
Article: 49711 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!torn!news.bc.net!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Nizkor
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 04:07:16 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 106
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4s1uh7$s9d@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4s1d8n$3ic@shiva.usa.net> <4s1l2e$8hj@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0224.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <4s1l2e$8hj@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
wrote:

Ehrlich's new-found propensity to "paste 'n post" is once more
demonstrated.  But I'm still not sure what the point of this
particular discourtesy might be (unless it is to make it less
convenient for the curious reader who might want verify the accuracy
of his pastings)

But I do find the references in the headers somewhat curious:


From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Nizkor
Date: 10 Jul 1996 21:23:26 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 34
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4s1l2e$8hj@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4s1d8n$3ic@shiva.usa.net>


For the record, the relevant headers in _this thread_ for the pasted
post to which Ehrlich has appended his "comment" are:


Message-ID: 
Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
References: <31d921ee.5817326@news.pacificnet.net>
<4rt1tm$51g@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> 
<4rvre4$djm@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 22:31:58 GMT


>Subject:	Re: The Best of Nizkor
>From:	dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>Date:	Wed, 10 Jul 1996 22:31:58 GMT

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:

>#        He admitted he lied under oath.  
>#
>#        What more do you want?   

>I said it very clearly: I want the full text of his testimony,
>not what "revisionists" claim he said. Why should we believe
>"revisionists", who have proven themselves - numerous times - 
>to be pathological liars?

>Ok?


>-Danny Keren.

>Comment: I made a request like that once from someone who kept saying
>Lagace had said *exploding corpses* at the second Zuendel trial.  I was
>told that transcripts cost $10 a page in Toronto, presumably for the first
>one as well. But you know that.

Comment: that may be Ehrlich's recollection, but experience has shown
we cannot depend on Ehrlich's recollection.  He has been known to
_adamantly_ claim he *never* wrote "Rekindling Ovens - Dachau
Gassings?"  - when in fact he most definitely had. [see my post of
June 29/96 "Untangling" for documentation.]

However, a quick search of DejaNews turned up no post that I could
find which contained the text "transcripts cost $10 a page in
Toronto".  I would also note that a search for *exploding corpses*
refreshed my memory that this was _not_ one of Lagace's claims, but
rather it was a hobby-horse of Ole Kreiberg [  if
you'd like to check it out with him, Ehrlich]

So, perhaps Ehrlich would be kind enough to provide some documentation
for his claim.  Because I, for one, do not know that he was told that.
OTOH if Ehrlich is interested in the Zundel case, the Supreme Court of
Canada 1992 Zundel Judgement is available on Nizkor:

http://www.nizkor.eye.net/hweb/people/z/zundel-ernst/supreme-court/

>The fact is that we could all tighten up our arguments considerably if it
>was possible to inexpensively and without difficulty obtain the relevant
>books in this field: IMT, NMT, Pressac, Zuendel trials, post-Nuremberg
>trials, etc. to say nothing of the archives that are still in Soviet,
>British, and US hands.  The latter will happen eventually; the former,
>probably not.  The interest, believe it or not, is just not there.

The fact is that "revisionists" seem to have a very difficult time
"tightening up" their arguments even with the abundance of material
that is currently available.  Given their demonstrated "scholarly"
ways, I fail to see that the inexpensive access for which Ehrlich
pleads would necessarily improve their arguments.  Besides, the Soviet
archives have been open for about four years now; and historians have
found that the material further supports the previously known facts.

Posted/e-mailed to Ehrlich, Dr. Keren and Mr. Katz [whose posts
usually originate from NNTP shiva.usa.net and to which Ehrlich has
made reference in his headers]

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Fri Jul 12 07:00:20 PDT 1996
Article: 49834 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Physical evidence
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 06:13:45 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 46
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4s4qa4$c3i@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4rvjfg$dva@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4s4fma$ijd@news.enter.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0126.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <4s4fma$ijd@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken)
wrote:

>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>  On 9 Jul 1996 02:12:32 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>  
>>  >>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>  
>>  >>  
>>  >>  	Nice try but It is quite clear that I am talking about your mass
>>  >>  extermination by gassing facilities within the camps.
>>  
>>  >	Unfortunately that is exactly what the evidence you demand cannot 
>>  >demonstrate.  It simply has little relevance to what you are disputing.
>>  
>>  >	--YFE	
>>  
>>  	This is amazing.
>>  
>>  	An attorney admitting that the fundamental standards of evidence
>>  required in a capital crime can not be produced because it never
>>  existed.  

>	You are getting incoherent again.  I have never heard of the type of 
>evidence you insist upon being "required" in a criminal case.  Perhaps you will 
>elucidate.  A few references that would not give a justice of the peace the giggles 
>would help.
> 
>>  	It is amazing because he is a holohugger and knows that his beliefs do
>>  not match the standards of his profession.  

>	That is a lie and you know it.
>  
>>  	This is truly amazing.  

>	What is truly amazing is your utter ignorance.

Indeed. His utter ignorance and his gutter utterances!


=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Fri Jul 12 11:09:57 PDT 1996
Article: 49868 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!torn!news.bc.net!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: "Honesty" - Then or Now? (Re: Another word on Dachau)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 22:13:24 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 56
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4s19pr$p8b@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4s0oas$3of@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU> <4s128f$sl@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0105.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <4s128f$sl@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
wrote:

[snip]

>And while we are on the subject, I would like someone to tell me more
>about the Dachau gas chamber.  Was it designed as a CO or Zyklon chamber? 
>If the latter, perhaps the construction far enough along for useful
>comparisons to the A-B chambers. Or perhaps was it designed in some other
>way for some other gases.

What a difference a few months can make!  Can this be the same Ehrlich
who once admonished:



Subject:      Holocaust without Gas Chambers
From:         ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Date:         1996/05/26
Message-Id:   <4oa5kj$fce@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
Sender:       root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
References:   <25MAY199615301685@cmi.arizona.edu>
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Newsgroups:   alt.revisionism

I find that this newsgroup seems to spend all of its time debating
whether or not there were gas chambers, or more precisely, how many
people died in them.  Frankly, I don't dwell on the extermination
aspect very much because it is vitriolic and not just on this board,
it is in the literature also (Sorry, Mike, no titles.)

[text deleted for brevity. hro]

Gas Chambers are not good for anybody, and are largely irrelevant.
This issue will be settled when that is realized



Golly, gee, Mr. E. if as you say "gas chambers are largely
irrelevant," why would you choose to spend so much time discussing
the minutiae thereof?

I wonder if he'll answer this question "honestly" - or if we shall
hear yet another refrain of the Sounds of Silence.

Posted/e-mailed

hro


=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Fri Jul 12 15:55:10 PDT 1996
Article: 49906 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Racism in Holocaust books
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 21:51:47 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 33
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4s6h8r$gqa@atlas.uniserve.com>
References:  <4s5rv8$qnb@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0101.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <4s5rv8$qnb@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
wrote:

>In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
>(Mark Van Alstine) writes:

>>
>>One has to wonder what possible importance the Nazis would have attached
>>to artisans who were Polish Jews if they did not attach any importance to
>>artists who were German Jews whom they persecuted?
>>
>>

>There is a difference between an artist and an artisan.  Artisan means
>here *craftsman*, that is, skilled laborer.

Thank you so much for this "enlightening" contribution to the
discussion, Ehrlich.  I don't know how we could have lived without it
- nor am I certain of its relevance to the price of tea in China (or
to the facts and historicity of the Holocaust for that matter).  

But since you are still here, when might we expect your responses to
one or more of the many threads you have left dangling - while
questions put to you remain unanswered?

hro

=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Fri Jul 12 18:45:25 PDT 1996
Article: 49915 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Jew Who Fought For Hitler
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 23:20:46 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 51
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4s6mfl$h81@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4s677d$1nf@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0228.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <4s677d$1nf@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
wrote:


> I was drafted into the Wehrmacht when I was 17, and sent to the
>Eastern Front.  I was wounded in the vicinity of Smolensk and was taken to
>the military hospital in Bobruisk on the Berezina River.  I was put in a
>large room with about 150 to 200 privates.  I kept hearing shooting that I
>couldn't identify.  But one day, I witnessed a scene that told me what it
>was.

>I overheard a few older soldiers discussing the price of a pistol.  They
>couldn't seem to come to an agreement.  The one who wanted to sell it
>said, *This is a really first rate piece.  I tested it out myself.  Jews
>are being shot here.  I was out yesterday and shot three or four them ...*
>Needless to say, this was a extraordinarily shocking experience for me,
>considering I had a Jewish father.  These were not SS men; they were
>simple privates. [...] This confession of murder was not politically
>motivated.  It was obvious that these people were not killing out of
>conviction.

>After I got out of the hospital, I went to my commander, stood up to my
>full height,and said, *Permission to speak, sir.*  I told him that
>according to the Nuremberg Laws, I was a half-Jew and thus unacceptable
>for the Wehrmacht.  He looked at me and said, *Are you crazy?  I'm not
>interested in that at all.  You're a good soldier; don't cause me
>trouble.*  Soon thereafter, I was released from the Wehrmacht ....quote>

>The guy returns to Germany, is unmolested, and after the war goes to
>Israel in 1947.  He enrolled in the Haganah and later became a battalion
>commander in the 7th Brigade of the Israeli Army.  After that, he went
>home ....

>Germany didn't treat me badly; I got to know a great many people
>who were making an effort after the war to establish something new [....] 
>I think of myself as a German, and always have.  And I have never had any
>passport other a a German one. 

>Testimony of Karl-Heinz Meier, *Voices from the Third Reich*, p. 295ff

And (assuming your  are accurate and that context would not
convey a different understanding) your point is?

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sat Jul 13 16:31:33 PDT 1996
Article: 50055 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS allegedly SHUT DOWN, but mi
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 20:53:36 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 37
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4s927i$pe9@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4rsh7p$3ule@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4ru1dv$m4n@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4s8m9v$20ve@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0109.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <4s8m9v$20ve@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
wrote:

>In article <4ru1dv$m4n@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
>said:

>>
>>Hell, if
>>Brad the Cad goes down the drain, Mr. Thomas might have to get a real job.

>>Scary!

>>--
>>Gord McFee


>>Gord, that's an ingnorant statement to make.  This is no more my job than
>>it is yours.  Even in acrimonious exchanges with Jamie McCarthy neither of
>>us descended to that silly level.  As if it had relevance to anything.

>Mr. Thomas, you are correct.  My remark was juvenile, unfair and
>undeserving.  I unequivocally withdraw it and apologize to you and Mr.
>Smith.

Perhaps Mr. Thomas will be kind enough to forward this apology to
Ehrlich.  It does serve as an excellent example of how a gentleman
acknowledges his error and apologizes.  No muss, no fuss, no
self-serving back-pedalling or denials - or after-the-fact lectures on
"intent."

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sat Jul 13 16:31:33 PDT 1996
Article: 50065 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE SHUT DOWN
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 21:51:52 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 41
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4s6h90$gqa@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4s43p6$fcm@news.enter.net> <4s5oct$pc7@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0101.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <4s5oct$pc7@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
wrote:

>In article <4s43p6$fcm@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken)
>writes:

>>>   ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) writes:
>>
>>  
>>>  I am still trying to figure out what Cassio's handkerchief has to do
>with
>>>  any of this.
>>
>>	Sorry.  In my generation and in the schools I attended a good
>working 
>>knowledge of Shakespeare was considered a part of any education.  Check
>out 
>>the Cliff Notes on "Othello."  If you still don't get it, ask again.
>>
>>	--YFE
>>
>>

>Yeah, right, Yale.  And back in _your generation_ you had to walk five
>miles to school and back -- and it was uphill both ways.

No, I rather suspect that was his father's generation, Ehrlich.  But
>from  what I have seen, back in _both_ generations, most kids learned
that "honesty" was a quality one demonstrated, and "honest" a label
one earned.  Perhaps in _your_ generation Ehrlich, this lesson has
been dropped - just like Cassio's handkerchief?

hro


=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sun Jul 14 07:45:08 PDT 1996
Article: 50105 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nazis NOT racist NOR antisemitic!
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 02:28:47 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 37
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4s9lrt$rg3@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4rggjl$qhp@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <4ri0n6$rao@grivel.une.edu.au> <4rq9cv$59l@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <4rt1u2$51g@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4s56lc$3qa@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <4s6nr8$92j@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4s8ckh$nil@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <4s9brj$csm@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
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In <4s9brj$csm@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt
Giwer) wrote:

>On 13 Jul 1996 14:42:25 GMT, Nele Abels
> wrote:

[snip]

>>>You either failed or did not take Political science.  
>>>You descriptive charcteristics are of the NSDAP, not of the
>>>concept of national socialism.  Why are you so slow?  

>>The appropriate question is: Why is Mr. Giwer so dense? Does he
>>give any reason, why the characteristics of the NSDAP should _not_
>>be the characteristics of national socialism? NO. Does he quote
>>any historian who puts forward this thesis? NO. Does he give
>>_anything_ remotedly looking like a qualified answer? NO.

>	When you mature you will learn to think for yourself, maybe.  Probably
>not though, you are too thoroughly a holohugger.  

The troll once again demonstrates his inability to respond rationally
or with civility  - or to acknowledge yet another defeat.

In addition, the troll - who has yet to demonstrate any ability to
think for himself (or for anyone else) - continues to delude himself
by tedious name-calling. The troll mistakenly,  but transparently,
attributes to his opponent his own failures and ineptitude.

hro

=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sun Jul 14 07:45:09 PDT 1996
Article: 50176 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!imci3!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: I think Germans have an evil gene.
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 00:08:32 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 33
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4s6p96$hhe@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4s0oo0$3qh@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU> <4s6mrt$8aq@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <4s6mrt$8aq@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
wrote:

>Rich Green writes:

>>In our case, I think our responsibility should manifest itself in
>>how we treat the descendents of the the victims.

>That's a valid sentiment, no argument.  But the only way to reduce the
>number of future victims is to get our collective heads out of our
>materialistic behinds and search for the things that lead to tolerance. [...]

A noble sentiment, Mr. Thomas.  But what have you done to engage in
the search for "things that lead to tolerance" - other than your
whitewashing of the postings of a boorish foul-mouthed troll in an
attempt to persuade the unsuspecting newcomer that there is some value
to the troll's wastes of bandwidth?

>David Thomas
>CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)

Glad to see CODOH has found a new home - even if the doors are not yet
open.

hro


=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sun Jul 14 07:45:10 PDT 1996
Article: 50190 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!news.erinet.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 23:46:38 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 28
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4s6o05$hcc@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <31e5067f.59385559@news.zilker.net> <4s42po$fcm@news.enter.net> <31E6D375.52F@unb.ca>
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In <31E6D375.52F@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison  wrote:

[snip]

>Besides, as someone in another forum mentioned, when was the last time
>you saw the military be the good guys in an SF film?  And personally I
>would love to have a national leader who was a good blowtorch jockey
>and willing to personally kick ET's butt.

Whaddya mean "kick ET's butt"?  Talk about "eastern myopia" -  ET was
a cutie - and made far more sense than a certain troll who habituates
this newsgroup.  At least he knew how to call home.

[...]

>Remember, support ZOG and see the movie.  Members get a ten percent
>discount at the door.

Think so, eh?!  Well, have I got news for you ... we superior ZOGGIES
of the West (and the best) get a fifteen percent discount.  So there.

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sun Jul 14 07:45:10 PDT 1996
Article: 50194 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!news.erinet.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Genocide
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 00:15:09 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 31
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4s6plj$i0o@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4rvkro$9gj@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <31e3a848.1328800@news.pacificnet.net> <4s27k8$2ea@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <31E534CA.36C8@gryn.org> <4s4bfl$8bf@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <31E6598A.5132@gryn.org> <31E6DA9A.F22@unb.ca>
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In <31E6DA9A.F22@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison  wrote:

>Alec Grynspan wrote:
>> 
>> Matt Giwer wrote:
>> >
>> >         I am talking about the revered written history of the Jewish people who
>> > have the first recorded acts of genocide in human history.
>> 
>> Please provide evidence that this is part of Jewish history.
>> 
>> Please connect this to your claim that Jews aren't really descendents of
>> the Hebrews but are Khazars.
>> 
>> Please try to use logic.

>Oh God, that was good.  Laughed myself silly that time.
>So how about it, Giwer?  Why *do* you contradict yourself?

Keith, I'm sure that after you recovered from laughing yourself silly,
you would have realized that he does it because he is incapable of
offering any plausible contradiction to anyone other than himself.

hro

=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sun Jul 14 09:44:26 PDT 1996
Article: 50210 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.mindlink.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 06:15:12 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 63
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4s7eoj$jil@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4s6q4r$6mq@news.enter.net> <4s7394$d79@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <4s7394$d79@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
wrote:

>In article <4s6q4r$6mq@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken)
>writes:

[snip]

>>	That silly standard is the one proposed by revisionazis -- you are
>stuck 
>>with it.  I suspect your photos are forged, therefore, your silly
>argument
>>that 
>>Dresden was bombed is just a foolish myth.
>>
>>

>Not to start trouble, but I do believe that some photographs have been
>retouched and staged.  The problem begins when (1) we fail to admit this,
>and (2) we therefore argue that all photos are fake.  You are going to ask
>for examples, I know.  Sorry!  But certainly you are aware of the way the
>Soviets airbrushed Trotsky out of all of the Revolutionary pictures after
>1925?

Well, now that you have decided to come out of the
denier/distortionist closet,  Ehrlich - rather than attempting to
delude us that you are "trying to undercut deniers" -  your "beliefs"
cause no trouble.  Except perhaps to you - because those you have
shared with us, you can't seem to support with any facts. Your
ambiguity does, however, leave open to question whether you are
talking about Dresden photos or other photos.  Or are you talking
about all photos for all time?

As it is written, your statement of the "problem" makes no sense.
How does it follow that those who "fail to admit this" (whoever you
might be speaking for) would "therefore argue" that all photos are
fake?  Or are you just doing some "airbrushing" on the troll's image
here?

In any event, how does Soviet airbrushing in 1925 (assuming that the
date is correct) have any bearing on photos that were taken 15-20
years later by Soviets or non-Soviets?  Sorry! Not very convincing to
me.  Nor would it be even if the timing were a little closer.  In
fact, I cannot imagine that it would be convincing to any reasonable
person.

Surely you can do better than this, Ehrlich!  There's no sign of the
"impressive intellect, rapier wit, and comprehensive knowledge" that
you've told us about.

But, if you are just coasting while you prepare your next cobbling,
maybe you could take a look at some of the many threads you've left
dangling elsewhere in this newsgroup.  Or are you avoiding them
because your answers would be as flimsy and unconvincing as your
Soviet airbrushing argument?

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sun Jul 14 12:22:02 PDT 1996
Article: 50238 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!torn!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: I think Germans have an evil gene.
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 00:34:52 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 33
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4s6qqi$i4r@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4s0oo0$3qh@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU> <4s6mrt$8aq@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0228.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <4s6mrt$8aq@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
wrote:

>Rich Green writes:

>>In our case, I think our responsibility should manifest itself in
>>how we treat the descendents of the the victims.

>That's a valid sentiment, no argument.  But the only way to reduce the
>number of future victims is to get our collective heads out of our
>materialistic behinds and search for the things that lead to tolerance. [...]

A noble sentiment, Mr. Thomas.  But what have you done to engage in
the search for "things that lead to tolerance" - other than your
whitewashing of the postings of a boorish foul-mouthed troll in an
attempt to persuade the unsuspecting newcomer that there is some value
to the troll's wastes of bandwidth?

>David Thomas
>CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)

Glad to see CODOH has found a new home - even if the doors are not yet
open.

hro


=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Mon Jul 15 07:12:41 PDT 1996
Article: 50333 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.structured.net!news.uoregon.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Jew Who Fought For Hitler
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 20:53:48 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 36
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4s927t$pe9@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4s6va7$bid@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4s8abr$pe7@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <4s8abr$pe7@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
wrote:

>Another excerpt from Voices of the Third Reich, pp 305-306:

>(Hanns Peter Herz, whose father was Jewish)

[text deleted for brevity]

>The point? A counterpoint. Contrary to the thinking of people
>like Goldhagen and Kaufman, Germans are human beings too.

Mr. Thomas, please provide specific examples in Goldhagen Kaufman
where either has put forward such "thinking".

>This was submitted in a news-group one of whose members
>is a former German soldier whose wife is Jewish.  [...]

What does the purported religion of a former soldier's wife have to do
with anything?

>The point?  All sides were capable of brutalities
>against defenseless people. [...]

Who in this newsgroup has denied that all sides were capable of
brutalities - or that such brutalities may not have transpired on all
sides?  And how does this in anyway justify (or disprove?!) the
documented horrendous crimes of the Nazi regime and their
extermination policies and practices during the events that have come
to be known as the Holocaust?
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Mon Jul 15 07:12:42 PDT 1996
Article: 50398 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: law suit
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 09:41:50 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 50
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4saf7n$2ee@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4s9li7$20u@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <13JUL199621403747@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0115.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <13JUL199621403747@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>,
dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <4s9li7$20u@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, mg*wer@ix.netcom.com (The Troll) writes...
>>	The attorney I have been talking to has added some more advice.  
>>	A class action suit is the wrong way to go.  Everyone should sue

>    Yeah, it would get tossed out on day one.



Attorney:	 So tell me Mr. G*wer, what is the basis of this suit
you would like to launch?

G*wer: 		They have told two thousand true truths and make me remember
my sister's cat.

Attorney:	Ahem, Mr. G*wer, this strongly suggests to me that you
have no class and no action. You are making up this suit out of whole
cloth.

G*wer:		That's a holohugging lie.  My sister never had a cat.  I know
my rights and I demand my day in court.  You are not competent to
speak on this.  But you know that.

Attorney:	Er... yes... well thank you for your call, Mr. G*wer.

G*wer:		You have just confirmed that you are Marduk and have conspired
in e-mail to harrass me.  According to the United Nations and the
Cornell Law School Website, this is a tortable paupacy.



>    I can't wait for G*wer to be deposed!

Just like you said*, Danny, "Who needs comedy on TV when we've got
alt.revisionism?"  But wouldn't he need a massive deposit of active
brain cells before he could be deposed?!

*Well, I think it was you who said it - but it might have been someone
else at bat:>)

hro

=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Mon Jul 15 15:14:56 PDT 1996
Article: 50462 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: H*ber Wins  and Presidential Revisionism
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 02:37:23 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 36
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4scb6b$2u6@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4qktkv$rpm@news1.i1.net> <4qmdjv$a7n@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <31ced003.251878689@news.zilker.net> <4qqtoe$33ri@usenetz1.news.prodigy.com> <4rorqr$2h9@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4s9tet$ji8@usenetw1.news.prodigy.com> <4sb917$141e@usenetw1.news.prodigy.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0108.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <4sb917$141e@usenetw1.news.prodigy.com>, EEGG87E@prodigy.com (M
Huber) wrote:

>EGG87A@prodigy.com (A Huber) wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Prodigy recently began issuing Cancel notices regarding Mr.
>>>Huber's massive abuse of the net. Given the speed at which
>>>Prodigy seems to operate, that's a definitive comment upon the
>>>value of h*ber posts.


>Prodigy couldn't care less. It's not within their perview. Nor could they 
>possibly have time.

Since when did a H*ber become the spokesman for Prodigy?
Incidentally, the only *perviews" on Prodigy are H*berviews which are
perverted views, called *perviews* for short.

>[...] Your attempts to 
>censor revisionists by any means available proves beyond a doubt that you 
>are afraid to have the holocaust lies challenged.

H*ber's lies and misunderstanding of the meaning of the words
*censorship* and *revisionist* are hereby acknowledged.  When the
H*ber learns to read, perhaps the H*ber will realize that all
"holocaust lies", including those perpetrated in H*ber *perviews*, are
repeatedly challenged and soundly refuted every time.

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Mon Jul 15 15:14:58 PDT 1996
Article: 50463 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: law suit
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 02:37:45 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 26
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4scb71$2u6@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4saf7n$2ee@atlas.uniserve.com> <4sauso$nar@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <4sauso$nar@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
wrote:

>Hilary Ostrov wrote:

>>Attorney:  So tell me Mr. G*wer, what is the basis of this suit
>>you would like to launch?
>>
>>G*wer:   They have told two thousand true truths and make me remember
>>my sister's cat.

>Hilary, I'm not sure if the murder of prose is a civil or criminal matter,
>but you keep this up and I've got no choice but to report you to the Word
>Police.  >;-)

Hey, I'm just the court reporter!  If you find the prose problematic,
you'd better take it up with the troll. Sorry, it's his tantrum, not
mine;>)

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Mon Jul 15 15:14:58 PDT 1996
Article: 50464 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor Roller Coaster, Wacky - Corrupt
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 02:37:53 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 42
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4scb79$2u6@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <31e90cca.8929322@news.pacificnet.net> <31e915cc.11235458@news.pacificnet.net>
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In <31e915cc.11235458@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


>	Nizkor list a line of pages from this Peters book, totaling maybe
>15 pages. One should think it would be in the interest of Nizor's
>position to post, in translated copy, any of it that is directly
>supportive to their position. Whatever it is. As it stands now, only
>those who can read German and root out the limited copy would be able
>to know what it is all about.

Li'l Tommy, have you ever heard the expression "Rome wasn't built in a
day"?  Do you have any idea what it means?  How do you think it might
apply to Nizkor?  You are free to "think" whatever you like, but it
does not change the fact that Nizkor is under no obligation to cater
to _your_ silly little whims.  Try learning to do your own research
instead of acting like the pathetic lazy, lying, little cretin that
you are - just for a change.

If you can't read German, Li'l Tommy, then I guess you will just have
to wait.  In the meantime, go back to your remedial reading 101. And
if you have mastered the intricacies of your rigii yet, why not print
out this post and take it to your next class.  Since you obviously
just don't get it, ask your teacher to explain to you the meaning of
the following, in words that you might be able to understand:

The people who work on Nizkor are volunteers who do what they can in
their spare-time.  Meeting Li'l Tommy's demands is not a high
priority.

Posted/e-mailed to my Nizkor colleagues.



=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Mon Jul 15 19:31:58 PDT 1996
Article: 50488 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: class action testicles
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 02:37:38 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 24
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4scb6q$2u6@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4s7u12$31t@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <31e7c82d.3506466@news.pacificnet.net> <13JUL199614393902@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4s9cl1$i32@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <31e8eae2.250018@news.pacificnet.net>  <31e90f86.9629396@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0108.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <31e90f86.9629396@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) wrote:

>jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

[snip]

>>
>>You can mock the facts, but the facts persist.

>	"Facts"? What pertinent "facts" are you talking about?

After you have successfully completed remedial reading 101, come back
to us and ask your question again Li'l Tommy.  Currently it appears
that your profound deficiencies preclude your being able to recognize
(inter alia) "facts."

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Mon Jul 15 19:31:59 PDT 1996
Article: 50502 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!news.mindlink.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 21:53:12 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 48
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4seetb$9uk@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <31e5067f.59385559@news.zilker.net> <4s42po$fcm@news.enter.net> <31E6D375.52F@unb.ca> <4s6o05$hcc@atlas.uniserve.com> <31E7E0F9.1D8E@unb.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0424.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <31E7E0F9.1D8E@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison  wrote:

>Hilary Ostrov wrote:

>> Whaddya mean "kick ET's butt"?  Talk about "eastern myopia" -  ET was
>> a cutie - and made far more sense than a certain troll who habituates
>> this newsgroup.  At least he knew how to call home.

>You'd have loved a sermon a lay minister gave at my church when I was
>13 or so.  Explained how ET really had satanic/occult leanings and
>ideas etc etc.

Hmmm ... Maybe this minister has influenced Ingrid to some extent.
This might explain her anti-Yahooligans diatribe a while back:>)

>I think my taste for religion began to take a nosedive right about
>then.

No kidding!

>And besides, the troll can't call home.  The amoebas don't have
>an 800 or 888 number, and since he is unemployed and probably
>low on cash he can't really call long distance.

And if he called collect, probably no one would accept the charges.

> 
>> >Remember, support ZOG and see the movie.  Members get a ten percent
>> >discount at the door.
>> 
>> Think so, eh?!  Well, have I got news for you ... we superior ZOGGIES
>> of the West (and the best) get a fifteen percent discount.  So there.

>Ten percent for normal members.  Owners of the ZOG Race Traitors and
>Holohuggers Card get in free.  Nyah nyah nyah.

Hah!  Well, I didn't really want to have to tell you this, but I lied.
Superior ZOGGIES of the West (and the best) actually _get paid_ to go
see the movie.  The fifteen percent discount is on the popcorn.  So
there.

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Tue Jul 16 02:18:45 PDT 1996
Article: 50576 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT FOR JUL 3-4: 11.1% / 20%
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 17:14:50 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 32
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4sdujh$7n0@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4rqtnv$bf2@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>  <31e8fc95.3776546@news.inetport.com>
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <31e8fc95.3776546@news.inetport.com>, mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike
Curtis) wrote:

[re the troll]

>The moment I un-killfile him, he'll probably go back up to 100 a day.
>So if you declare the crisis over, do I start reading him again? Or
>would his count go up because those of us who have him turned off will
>start to respond to him. I don't mind him responding but the
>speciousness, nastiness, and downright boringness of his replies do
>not make it worthwile. 

>Unless he has changed. Has he changed?

No change.  He simply keeps recycling himself and his "material"
through his various modes.  Currently he is alternating between
 and  (with unintended
self-contradictions thrown in for our occasional mild amusement - see
my "G*wer Judgement on G*wer vs G*wer") but on the whole, just as
boring as ever.  And as long as you can still see the replies of
others, you aren't missing a thing!

Posted/e-mailed

hro

=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Tue Jul 16 02:18:46 PDT 1996
Article: 50610 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news1.io.org!winternet.com!n1ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Jew Who Fought For Hitler
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 21:49:34 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 77
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4seemh$9uk@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <177C21358DS86.BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU> <4sd7as$la8@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0424.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <4sd7as$la8@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
wrote:

>In article <177C21358DS86.BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>,
>BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU (borowsky) writes:

[snip]

>>>
>>>The only point I would presume to make is that the Holocaust was a lot
>>>more complicated than we think.
>> 
>>So, extrapolate, generalize, draw some conclusion-- anything.  But
>please,
>>the point.
>> 
>> 
>>--Bruce Borowsky

>Well, looking at from that point of view, what do we find?  First of all,
>we find that the Nazi racial state made exceptions when it was in their

Care to provide some concrete examples of these alleged "exceptions"?

>interest.  Several thousand Germans of at least some Jewish ethnicity went
>unmolested throughout the war.  There were lots of different circumstances

What would be your definition of "unmolested", Ehrlich?  Did such
"fortunate" people outnumber or even equal those who were murdered by
the Nazis (whether in gas chambers or by any other means)?

>for this.  The point is that Himmleresque conceptions of wiping out all
>Jews could be got around, particularly in Germany.  But don't forget Edith
>Stein.

Not only "Himmleresque" but "Hitleresque" - or did you forget that
part, Erhlich? Do take a look at Gord McFee's recent translation of
the June 15, 1977 (Munich) affidavit from Albert Speer . [ Subject:
Hitler and the Jews--the Final Solution
Message-ID: <4sch81$3j5a@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>]

Edith Stein? You mean the Jewish woman who became a Carmelite nun -
and was gassed at Auschwitz in 1942, because she was born Jewish?  Is
this your idea of how one could have "got around conceptions of
"wiping out all Jews"?

>There are also several references that you can come across here and there
>in the literature about the Third Reich about Germans of some Jewish
>ethnicity who served in WW2.  

Oh well, since you don't care to cite these "references." for the time
being let's just deal with the first part of your post, Ehrlich.  When
you've answered these questions, perhaps we can move on to deal with
your other observations.  That is unless you prefer to sing another
round of The Sounds of Silence.

But if it isn't too much trouble, you might just clarify the "intent"
of the following:

>Third point is that German Jews were Germans.  They were 
>aware of their Jewishness, yes, but they loved their country.  
>In the balance of Nazi crimes, their treatment of their own 
>co-nationals was the most shameful, to me.

"In the balance of Nazi crimes"?  Are you suggesting that those German
Jews who became instruments of Nazi crimes did so _willingly_, if so
what is your evidence for this?  And please do enlighten us regarding
your criteria for placing Nazi crimes in the continuum of
"shamefulness."

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Tue Jul 16 21:21:03 PDT 1996
Article: 50851 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.structured.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: in the manner of suiing
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 20:39:12 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 30
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4sguud$i32@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4scv9i$qm1@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4seavl$moa@lendl.cc.emory.edu>  <15JUL199622285869@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0325.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <15JUL199622285869@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>,
dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

>In article , joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg) writes...
>>In article <4seavl$moa@lendl.cc.emory.edu> libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) writes:
>>>Matt  Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>>>:       
>>>:       Also of interest is that there are six or seven contributors listed on
>>>: the Nizkor site.  Two of them are "co-webmasters" but certainly it is
>>>: possible they are contributing defamatory material making the RICO
>>>: conspiracy even wider and more people to be named.
>> 
>>>Ooh!  Ooh!  I've spoken with Ken about doing work for Nizkor, but I 
>>>haven't managed to clear up the time yet to do it.  If I mark up just
>>>one little page, Matt, will you PLEASE include me in this lawsuit?  I
>>>smell a big ol' countersuit, and I could really use the money.
>> 
>>There's not a lot of point to this.  Giwer is almost certainly judgment proof 
>>-- what are you going to do, put a lien on the use of his (rented) trailer?  

>    You could garnish his disability income.
                       ^^^^^^^^^
No, Danny!  That is _his_ delusion.  I have no intention of
contributing a penny to his income (whatever the source)  
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Tue Jul 16 22:35:59 PDT 1996
Article: 50862 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!nic.ott.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!unixg.ubc.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Schott, Keyes, & Hitler  Re: FREE SPEECH?
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 02:57:07 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 26
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4shl2r$kfd@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <31e90b51.7549274@news.inetport.com> <4sgpo5$n9m@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0111.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <4sgpo5$n9m@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
wrote:

>>dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) wrote:
>>
[snip]

>[...]  The
>requisite rationalizations grow steadily more convoluted.  Oh what a
>tangled web we weave when first we do ourselves deceive.

Indeed Mr. Thomas.  This may be the most honest and succinct
self-assessment I have ever seen from a "revisionist scholar"

It certainly far surpasses Moran's insight of a few (no make that
*many*, or at least *several*) months back that he "must be offering
up thoroughly ridiculous questions and responses"!

hro

=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Tue Jul 16 23:54:08 PDT 1996
Article: 50875 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!unixg.ubc.ca!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Former AOL members to get $$ in case settlement
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 05:41:52 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 31
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4shunn$l9n@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4sh7cf$t01@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0227.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <4sh7cf$t01@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
wrote:

>AOL is settling a class action lawsuit alleging overbilling  and
>misleading rate presentations.

>Current members will receive credits to their accounts automatically.

>Former users will receive cash ONLY if they apply before Nov. 30, 1996. 
>Payment depends on the total usage, and won't fund the new car.  If you
>paid a total of $2,000 to them, you'll get about $18 back.

>To get a claim form (a very short document) send a written request (they
>won't accept audio or video tapes) to:

>America Online
>P.O. Box 75999
>Oklahoma City, OK   73147

>Good luck.  I only use 'em, I don't have to like 'em.

Talk about byting the server that feeds you!;>)

hro

=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Wed Jul 17 07:36:07 PDT 1996
Article: 50980 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.structured.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 20:39:39 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 33
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4sguv8$i32@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <4s5qon$pgc@hades.rz.uni-sb.de> <2bwvnOev1yrK065yn@login.dknet.dk>  <4sbkb4$p4q@access5.digex.net> <4sco5c$mer@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4sdhik$5b7@hades.rz.uni-sb.de> <4sfnju$mr1@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0325.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <4sfnju$mr1@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt
Giwer) wrote:

[snip]

>	I am NOT talking about suitability and you know that.  

>	I am talking about the reports matching the claimed material used.  

It is obvious that the troll is so deluded that his deceitful attempts
to confuse others confuse no one - but himself.

[...]

>	Read The Fine Conference and respond to what is being discussed.  

TRANSLATION: The discussion is beyond the comprehension skills of the
inept lying troll. 









=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Wed Jul 17 10:59:35 PDT 1996
Article: 50999 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.structured.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!news.mindlink.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why CODOH is not likely to sue ProtoSource
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 02:57:54 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 86
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4shl4b$kfd@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4seiem$eau@Networking.Stanford.EDU> <4sgo3e$mif@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0111.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <4sgo3e$mif@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
responded to Rich Graves:


>>
>>This is an excellent description of the revisionist technique. There are
>>gas chambers, there are orders, there are mass graves, there are lists of
>>the dead, but since there are no triply-authenticated autopsy reports, I
>>guess nobody died.

>Rich, this is the strangest marriage of gratuitous opportunism and humor
>deficiency I have ever seen anywhere, anytime.

>I almost hate to spoil it by digressing to its misrepresentations.

Have you forgotten so quickly, Mr. Thomas? "He who asserts, must
prove"  Although lacking substance your "arguments" below are
certainly not new, and as you know they have been repeatedly
challenged and refuted.  But they do not lack a certain "symmetry."

>(1)  There are no existant homicidal gassing chambers, there are only
>reconstructions of alleged facilities based on oral testimonies and
>descriptions, and ruins that are alleged to have been same, save they seem
>most inadequate for the purpose.

"Propagandizing of a base sort is done by repeating the same material
over, and over, and over, and over, until it burns into consciousness

by default." [DvdThomas, alt.revisionism, June 1996,
<4qc06s$g8h@newsbf02.news.aol.com>]

>(2)  By "there are orders" I presume you mean an order from the German
>government for the eradication of the Jewish inhabitants of Europe by mass
>murder?  No such order exists.  Period.  If you know of its location,
>major historians around the world await enlightenment.  Don't keep them in
>suspense.

"The requisite rationalizations grow steadily more convoluted.  Oh
what a tangled web we weave when first we do ourselves deceive."
[DvdThomas, alt.revisionism, July 1996
<4sgpo5$n9m@newsbf02.news.aol.com>]

>(3)  There are mass graves all right, mostly to bury victims of disease in
>the camps and fire-bombings in the German cities.  What other mass graves
>do you refer to that are not simply alleged, with no supporting evidence,
>not even one brain in a jar?  Perhaps it would be more appropriate to
>refer to "Graves without mass", meaning either the mythical ones you
>mention, or the space between your ears. :-) BTW, I refer in my remarks to
>the allusion to mass graves for gassing victims supposedly located on the
>sites of Treblinka and Belzec but not in any way evident there.  Jewish
>deportees were indeed slaughtered by the tens of thousands by German units
>in the Eastern areas, and buried in mass graves.  Those graves exist, some
>I believe have been positively identified.  Records documenting those
>shootings do exist, and I have no doubt that excavation could produce
>forensic evidence, but I also don't know of anyone who challenges that
>this atrocious mass murder happened.

"The requisite rationalizations grow steadily more convoluted.  Oh
what a tangled web we weave when first we do ourselves deceive."
[DvdThomas, alt.revisionism, July 1996
<4sgpo5$n9m@newsbf02.news.aol.com>]

>(4)  There are vast lists with no support whatever to indicate, let alone
>prove, that they are accurate to any degree.  In fact, it appears now that
>mainstream academic sources are beginning to state figures for Auschwitz
>death totals which are going to put a severe crimp in the validity of the
>much larger lists which have been taken at face value by many for so long.
> Were it not for the American occupation of the zone, and the subsequent
>debunking of claims of mass murder there, I'm sure there would have been a
>huge Dachau list out a long time ago.

"Propagandizing of a base sort is done by repeating the same material
over, and over, and over, and over, until it burns into consciousness

by default." [DvdThomas, alt.revisionism, June 1996,
<4qc06s$g8h@newsbf02.news.aol.com>]

Such is the symmetry of "revisionism"

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Wed Jul 17 10:59:35 PDT 1996
Article: 51017 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Brown the hypocrite
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 05:40:56 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 52
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4shulv$l9n@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4s4cad$fbe@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4s5svv$5ro@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <4s8q12$dgi@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4sftfb$1s90@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4sguhn$3vr@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:36366 alt.politics.nationalism.white:25564 alt.discrimination:50550 alt.revisionism:51017

In <4sguhn$3vr@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>, Laura Finsten
 wrote:

>gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:
>>In article <4s8q12$dgi@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
>>(Ken McVay OBC) said:


>>>In article <4s5svv$5ro@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>, 
>>>Laura Finsten  wrote:

>>>>Les "National Appliance" Griswold wrote:

>>>>>that Mr. Fester, Laura Fester's husband, was cheating on her. 
>         ^^^^^^^^^^

>>>>He's gonna love this!!!!!!!  

>>>What? WHAT?

>>>You have ANOTHER one, Finstenstein?

>>Unbelievable!  And she got MY condo!!  I am shocked, Mr. McVay.

>>>TURN IN YOUR CONDO!

>>Damn tootin'.  About time.  (Can *I* have the condo?)


>You're shocked but you knew it all along???  Sure, McFaythyov, sure.
>You will stoop to any depth to take my condo away, won't you?
>I'm sincerely disappointed.  If you folks think I'm gonna be one
>of your lackeys for nothing more than the still unfulfilled promise
>of a ZOG decoder ring, well, think again.  I've worked hard for
>the condo, it is in my contract.  I'll sue!!!!!!!!!!!                                                                                   

YOUR condo?!?!?!  DIDN"T get your ZOG decoder ring?!?!?!
Finsteinsten, really!  Sheesh, talk about "revisionism"!  And NOW
you're gonna sue?!?!  Well, get in line, my friend.

Oh, and btw, McFeemanvay, the condo is MINE.  But when we are at the
Florida GiwerGathering, I'll let you have the lifetime pass to Disney
World - provided you can keep your decoder ring finger the same colour
for more than 3 consecutive days.


=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Wed Jul 17 14:38:52 PDT 1996
Article: 51052 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: in the manner of suiing
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 20:38:40 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 25
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4sgutd$i32@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4scv9i$qm1@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4se8l4$hfd@access5.digex.net> <15JUL199622271373@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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In <15JUL199622271373@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>,
dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <4se8l4$hfd@access5.digex.net>, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) writes...
>>In article <4scv9i$qm1@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>> 
>>>	The joint and several liability under RICO for treble damages should be
>>>of interest to most any "contributor."
>> 
>>    At most I am responsible for bass damages.  If Mr. Giwer is having
>>problems with his treble he is out of luck.

>    There's a woofer and tweeter joke in there somewhere.  Gord?  Marty?

Can I play too?!

He's obviously having treble trouble because his woof is worse than
his tweet.  No wonder he marches to a different drummer!
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Wed Jul 17 14:38:53 PDT 1996
Article: 51062 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "I will ... this weekend."
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 20:42:54 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 34
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4sjjh3$oho@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <31ec241f.1982243@news.pacificnet.net> <4shiml$9s9@news.enter.net> <31ecf419.2279607@news.pacificnet.net>
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In <31ecf419.2279607@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) wrote:

>yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>
>>>  	Mr.Edeiken, when did you "mention" the e-mail in a previous
>>>  article? What date was it, under what title and what is the article
>>>  I.D. number?	
>>
>>	It's on dejanews, L'il Tommy.  I just checked.  Look for it.

>	Poor Mr.Edeiken. He refuses to put the evidence foward. He says
>he has found gold. He says he has filed the claim and he wants to sell
>stock in the mine. His prospective clients ask him to show them the
>mine. He shows them a satellite picture of Mars and says, 'Right
>there'. He thinks to himself, 'These stupid goyems'.
>	

Poor Li'l Tommy!  All the ghost-writers in the world can't help him
enhance his credibility - or improve the quality of his logic.  So
much for this little "Poster's Progress."

ftp://ftp.eye.net/pub/nizkor/people/m/moran.tom/

hro

=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Wed Jul 17 23:20:32 PDT 1996
Article: 51105 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Schott, Keyes, & Hitler  Re: FREE SPEECH?
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 23:37:49 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 26
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4sh9d8$io9@atlas.uniserve.com>
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In <4sgpo5$n9m@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
wrote:

>>dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) wrote:
>>
[snip]

>[...]  The
>requisite rationalizations grow steadily more convoluted.  Oh what a
>tangled web we weave when first we do ourselves deceive.

Indeed Mr. Thomas.  This may be the most honest and succinct
self-assessment I have ever seen from a "revisionist scholar"

It certainly far surpasses Moran's insight of a few (no make that
*many*, or at least *several*) months back that he "must be offering
up thoroughly ridiculous questions and responses"!

hro

=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Wed Jul 17 23:20:34 PDT 1996
Article: 51128 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!news.mindlink.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: class action lawsuit
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 05:41:22 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 30
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4shump$l9n@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4s7u12$31t@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <31e7c82d.3506466@news.pacificnet.net> <13JUL199614393902@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu> 
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In ,
Marty Kelley  wrote:

>On 13 Jul 1996, Danny Mittleman wrote:

>>     As I have said before, who need the Comedy Channel when we have
>>     alt.revisionism?
>> 
>> In article <31e7c82d.3506466@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>> 
>> >	Look at what [Nizkor has] done under "names" > "m" > "moran". They
>> >have put in a clickable called "testicles". I just say 'nuts' they
>> >have a lot of 'balls' putting in something that has no connection to
>> >Moran whatsoever... 
>> 
>>     Yale has been claiming for months Tommy has no cojones.  Nice to see
>>     that Tommy is finally owning up to the deficiency.

>I dunno, Danny.  I think Mr. Moran's test tickles are 
>hilarious.
  ^^^^^^

Just a sec!  If I didn't know better, I'd think you were using my name
in vain! Couldn't you just say "uproariously funny"?:>)
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Wed Jul 17 23:20:35 PDT 1996
Article: 51129 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.structured.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 03:13:07 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 36
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4shm0s$kgb@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <31e5067f.59385559@news.zilker.net> <4s42po$fcm@news.enter.net> <31E6D375.52F@unb.ca> <4s6o05$hcc@atlas.uniserve.com> <31E7E0F9.1D8E@unb.ca> <4seetb$9uk@atlas.uniserve.com> <31EC10DF.1B5@unb.ca>
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In <31EC10DF.1B5@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison  wrote:

>Hilary Ostrov wrote:

>> >> >Remember, support ZOG and see the movie.  Members get a ten percent
>> >> >discount at the door.
>> >>
>> >> Think so, eh?!  Well, have I got news for you ... we superior ZOGGIES
>> >> of the West (and the best) get a fifteen percent discount.  So there.
>> 
>> >Ten percent for normal members.  Owners of the ZOG Race Traitors and
>> >Holohuggers Card get in free.  Nyah nyah nyah.
>> 
>> Hah!  Well, I didn't really want to have to tell you this, but I lied.
>> Superior ZOGGIES of the West (and the best) actually _get paid_ to go
>> see the movie.  The fifteen percent discount is on the popcorn.  So
>> there.

>We get free popcorn *and* a percentage of the box office.

Yeah, but you have to *pay* for the extra butter.  Besides, your
percentage of the box office is only *after* we've taken our cut off
the top.



>--
>Keith Morrison
>t08o@unb.ca

=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Fri Jul 19 07:29:30 PDT 1996
Article: 51389 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!torn!news.bc.net!news.mindlink.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionism Defined
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 23:34:46 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 27
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4sh97h$io9@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4rq9n8$9f3@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4rrf70$il2@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <31EC0EA6.6718@mail.gte.net>
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In <31EC0EA6.6718@mail.gte.net>, Bud  wrote:

[re Brlhagen's "response"]

>You handled that very well.  This is exactly what I too object to -- this 
>attempted use of intimidation to silence anyone who finds some credence 
>in the traditional revisionist view.  

Ah, yes!  The "ultimate" weapon of those who have _neither_ rational
argument on the topic _nor_ shred of evidence to support their
characterization of their opponents' observations and reasoned
arguments:  pin the "intimidation" tag on the opponent.  The
laughter-label to end all laughter-labels.

Ever thought of changing your userID to "budlite" - seems to me it
would be more in character than "budwrite"

[balance deleted]

hro

=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Fri Jul 19 16:19:56 PDT 1996
Article: 51445 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: David Irving
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 20:01:05 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 57
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4sopq9$aqf@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4sf1td$s16@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4sjd3b$pf2@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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In <4sjd3b$pf2@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
wrote:

>In article <4sf1td$s16@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, sf924@aol.com (SF924)
>writes:

>>
>>Mr Erlich:
>>
>>Do you share David Irving's facist sympathies?
>>
>>I was struck by your comment that you doubt the number of gassings but
>>have no such proof.   Am I to assume that you are unconvinced by Messers.
>>Zundel, Smith, Thomas, Raven, Weber and Moran?
>>
>>I am afraid that you have made an uncomfortable deal with the devil.  You
>>want to be perceived as a legitimate thinker and intellectual, but you
>>have fallen in with bad company.  And I will resort to name calling.  I
>>believe that the above mentioned people are lying propogandists, fascists
>>and neo-Nazis.  They hate their fellow man and hold the most obsene views
>>on race.  They are evil.  They are the scum of the earth and frankly I
>>like saying so. 
>>
>>

>ROTFLMAO!  This is the guy who came on a few weeks ago claiming to be an
>attorney who had a few mild questions to ask.  Now he comes back after his
>questions have been answered and just wants to get off spurting hatred. 
>Be my guest.  I am glad you are in touch with your feelings.

If this is Ehrlich's "honest" opinion i.e. that this is all one can
draw from Mr/Ms SF924's postings, one can only wonder how Ehrlich
might describe the posts of Moran/Giwer/Huber et al if he were to move
beyond .

Then again, it could all be evasive bluster - because Ehrlich seems to
have once again jumped on his high-horse (although to his credit at
least this time he didn't *drop* anything en route) rather than answer
the questions:

>>Do you share David Irving's facist sympathies?
>>
>>I was struck by your comment that you doubt the number of gassings but
>>have no such proof.   Am I to assume that you are unconvinced by Messers.
>>Zundel, Smith, Thomas, Raven, Weber and Moran?

[balance snipped]

hro


=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Fri Jul 19 16:19:57 PDT 1996
Article: 51453 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!nic.ott.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay being sued
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 20:01:39 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 44
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4soprb$aqf@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4scvka$gjq@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4servg$i36@news.enter.net> <4smsos$niq@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0226.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <4smsos$niq@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
wrote:

>In article <4servg$i36@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken)
>said:

[...]
>>  
>>>  	There is no way this can comfort the RICO liable contributors to
>McVay's
>>>  actionable site.  It is clearly racketeering under US law.  
>>  
>>>  	But you know that.  

>>	I know that you're a lying jerk-off.  But why don't you put your money
>>where your mouth is.  FILE YOUR FRIVOLOUS LAWSUIT, BUNKIE.  I can't wait
>>much longer.  McVay can't wait much longer.  MacCarthy can't wait much
>>longer.  Ostrov can't wait much longer.  Our sides hurt from laughing at
>>you.

>Excuse me, but why the hell am I not included in the list?  I am a bona fide
>contributor and I want to get sued too.

Just as soon as you start laughing hard enough, you can be added to
the list, Gord.

hro

>--
>Gord McFee



>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.27 #331

> 

=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Fri Jul 19 21:37:20 PDT 1996
Article: 51522 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!enews.sgi.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Towards a kinder, gentler "revisionism"
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 01:58:41 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 130
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4speol$dde@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4sj90v$1om@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU> <4sns9g$oks@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <4sns9g$oks@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
wrote:

>In article <4sj90v$1om@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU>, rjg@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU
>(Richard J. Green) writes:

[discussion deleted for brevity since Ehrlich ignored it in his
response]

>>
>>Why were there no measureable traces in other buildings?
>>
>>Mr. Ehrlich, you claim that lethal gassings occurred.  Where do you
>>claim they occurred if not in the chambers that indicated by responsible
>>historians?

>Rich, I will answer you here, and answer Mark also, who is much more
>*argumentative* elsewhere.  I believe that over a half dozen locations
>have been spotted for gassings at AB.

>Unlike most revisionists, I don't find a gassing thesis impossible. 
>Moreover, I have reservations based on my lack of knowledge about the nuts
>and bolts of extermination procedures to pronounce all witness testimonies
>invalid.  Furthermore,  the concept of _some_ gassing fits into my thesis
>of extermination for those who are economically not useful, or *useless
>mouths* or whatever euphemism you want to use for murder.  Moreover, such
>a concept fits into what I know about the conduct of other totalitarian
>regimes.

One wonders why Ehrlich prefers to make pronouncements based on his
admitted ignorance than to inform himself before engaging in a
discussion.  Ah, I see the "economic" justification for murder - just
like all the other totalitarian regimes.  Would Ehrlich have us
believe that the Nazis weren't so bad after all - except that (as he
told us elsewhere) they murdered their co-nationals?  Will we be given
a lesson on "class" next time Ehrlich is in ?

>However, the real question in my mind is a thesis of immediate
>extermination within the camp system versus shootings in the field.  I
>have severe reservations about the first part.  

One wonders whose "thesis" might this be. And what has led Ehrlich to
believe that it is an either/or proposition.  And since "immediate
extermination"  in gas chambers _was_ in fact practiced by the Nazis
in course of their implementation of The Final Solution - as all
accredited historians have confirmed - why is this a "real question"
in his mind.  Particularly since he has already declared that "gas
chambers are irrelevant."

>Reasons:  (a)  appears to
>contradict other witness testimony, (b) traces of cyanide compounds at
>Kremas are, to my unscientifically trained eye, too low -- specifically,
>topping out at 7.9 mg per kg.  OTOH, the traces at the delousing
>facilities are hundreds if not thousands of times higher.  (c)  *dumbing
>down* the traces at the delousing chambers by excluding Prussian Blue
>means not only excluding any *blue paint* (never proved) but also any
>visible traces of cyanide compounds.  As a non-chemist, I am not convinced
>by this approach.  (d)  the mass graves at the several locations,
>triangulated with the mass graves from the Hamburg firestorm, and the
>Katyn Forest, where the numbers are known, does not correlate with the
>area of the mass graves at the Aktion Reinhardt sites and the claimed mass
>murders that occurred therein,  (e) it has been generally conceded that
>numerical totals are going to be the weakest element of witness testimony,
>(f) the Wannsee minutes specifically address the labor aspect of the Final
>Solution, (g) numerous subsequent documents point to labor requirements as
>well as the demand to bring the death rates down for labor purposes.

How are Ehrlich's "reasons" any different from those of the
"revisionists" with whom he claims to differ?  And why does he
_ignore_ the copious evidence from the Nazis' own records?  Is it
because he cannot find a convenient way of fitting them into his own
"thesis" (whatever it might be)?  

Could this be why Ehrlich has left so many threads dangling with
unanswered questions? 

>For these reasons I have doubted, and continue to doubt, the scale of
>exterminations by gas that the standard approach maintains.  I cannot
>prove this.  Then, if things proceed according to form, I will be accused
>of saying *BISS*, the implication being that if I can't prove my
>reservations then I am compelled to accept your thesis.  But If I cannot
>dispute the standard version comprehensively, I can still register my
>doubts.  And that is what I do. 

IOTW Ehrlich - who cannot make up his mind whether or not he wants us
to believe he is an "historian"  -  seems to recognize that the
pseudo-academic "scholarship" proffered by Raven, Smith, Zundel et al
in "support" of their contention that there were no gas chambers fails
to convince.  Perhaps he has found that their "scholarship" is not
sufficiently efficacious in planting seeds of doubt.

His approach is a kinder, gentler "revisionism."  He waffles between
admitting to the "possibility" of a "gassing thesis" [my what an open
mind the man has!]  to doubting "the scale of exterminations by gas"
His _justification_ for doubting the chemical evidence presented: _he_
is a non-chemist and is not convinced!

Ehrlich demonstrates little interest in the facts of the Holocaust -
indeed, this is yet another post in which he manages to speak about
the Holocaust, at considerable length, without even mentioning the
word.  

But he does like to exercise his "freedom to speculate." It seems that
he expects the reader to kowtow to his "impressive intellect and
knowledge" - without questioning or criticizing his repeated failure
to substantiate his cobblings - and be swept away by the
"reasonableness" of his "doubt"

He would also have the reader believe that there is virtue and merit
in what he has dubbed "skepticism" on the part of an ignorant,
boorish, foul-mouthed troll.  Ehrlich claims that he is "unlike most
revisionists." Perhaps this is where the difference lies - it is
certainly the only one that I have noticed of late! 

His "arguments" have such a familiar ring to them - although I shall
concede that the ring does have a more mellifluous, kinder and gentler
tone.

Posted/e-mailed to Mr. Van Alstine [who might not be aware that his
"argumentativeness" elsewhere was not deemed worthy of the courtesy of
a direct response by Ehrlich]

hro

=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sat Jul 20 09:15:15 PDT 1996
Article: 51602 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!news.mindlink.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A question for Matt Giwer
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 01:59:34 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 21
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4speqa$dde@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <31d13610.64608169@news.zilker.net>  <4qvapu$kfb@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>  <4rm63p$n8q@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4rnjtq$r8t@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>  <4rs72r$nhe@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>  <4skah8$npk@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>  <31ef8ac6.143341049@news.zilker.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0107.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <31ef8ac6.143341049@news.zilker.net>, mike@aimetering.com (Mike
Curtis) wrote:

[snip]

>[...] This fits Giwer in his discussions concerning the Civil War
>period. I still do not know what the American Civil War has to do with
>the Holocaust.

Since when did anything the troll chooses to expound upon bear any
semblance of pertaining to the Holocaust - except in his own mind (I
use the word loosely) and the minds of his apologists?

hro

=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sat Jul 20 09:15:16 PDT 1996
Article: 51613 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!news.fibr.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Vindicated by Giwer!
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 20:01:14 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 39
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4sopqi$aqf@atlas.uniserve.com>
References:  <4r471c$691@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4rcemf$m5i@shiva.usa.net> <4sa8a5$i3q@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <15JUL199606513008@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4sffh3$2lt@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4sjvt7$pke@shiva.usa.net>
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <4sjvt7$pke@shiva.usa.net>, hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <4sa8a5$i3q@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) whined:

>	Dear jerkoff Jew,

>On 15 Jul 1996 06:51 MST,
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) corected him:

>	I am as atheist as you are, just not as obnoxious about it
>	(thought I had mentioned this before.)

>In article <4sffh3$2lt@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt  Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) whines:

>	Where is a written a Jew can not be an atheist?  

>At one time, Mr. Giwer wrote that anyone who allowed someone else to
>define him was stupid.  He wrote that in response to a post of mine.
>I had written that regardless of how I defined myself, I would still
>be defined as a Jew by racists and anti-Semites.

>It seems that Mr. Giwer now agrees with me, though he is too
>egotistical to admit that he was wrong and changed his mind.

Speaking of the troll's putative "mind" ... watching his posts always
reminds me of the word game "Boggle."  Haven't played it for years,
but I remember lots of noise shaking up the letters and making
something out of whatever fell.  That seems to fit just about any
troll-post - mind boggling, although usually the only constant with a
troll-post is the noise.  He seems to have difficulty arranging what
falls in a way that might make sense.
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sat Jul 20 21:45:58 PDT 1996
Article: 51755 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!globe.indirect.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-3.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-ana-24.sprintlink.net!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!EU.net!Norway.EU.net!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor Roller Coaster, Wacky - Corrupt
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 02:00:01 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 26
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4sper5$dde@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <31e90cca.8929322@news.pacificnet.net> <31e91163.10107078@news.pacificnet.net> <4sk7ro$2req@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <31ef838d.569572@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0107.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <31ef838d.569572@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran
aka the denier in search of a persona) wrote:

>gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:
>>Err....  Maybe Mr. McCarthy reads German?  Maybe Mr. McCarthy knows someone
>>who reads German?  Maybe Mr. McCarthy both reads German and knows someone
>>who reads German?  You see, Mr. Moron, the possibilities are endless.

>	Almost an "endless" run of "maybe"s.
>>

Nice try Gord! But as you can see from the twit's response, Moran is
simply not among the educable.  As usual, he has latched onto one of
the "theories" generated by his keyboard and is proceeding to bolster
it with his customary inanities - so that he can regale us at some
point with another "Moranic lie"[tm] generated by his handy-dandy
"Spirit 'n Paste Device"[tm].

hro

=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sat Jul 20 23:22:38 PDT 1996
Article: 51760 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!EU.net!Norway.EU.net!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE SHUT DOWN
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 01:59:09 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 24
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4speph$dde@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4s5oct$pc7@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4sftet$2tok@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4sg99t$2dg@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <16JUL199623161320@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0107.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In , dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>## In my MY generation, we had schools, but we didn't have wood, 
>## and we had to burn our legs to stay warm.  

># In MY generation, we had to burn our legs to stay warm and THEN
># we had to walk home.

>Ha! in MY generation, we couldn't even burn our legs - didn't
>have fire yet!

In MY generation we were still looking for the second stone (sorta
like looking for some sense in "revisionism")




=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sat Jul 20 23:22:39 PDT 1996
Article: 51772 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!udel-eecis!news.udel.edu!cpk-news-feed4.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.ums.edu!news.umbc.edu!cs.umd.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!newsgate.duke.edu!interpath!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-3.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Any day now"?
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 20:42:52 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 27
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4sjjh1$oho@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <31e6497a.1895296@news.pacificnet.net> <31ed0d2c.8698142@news.pacificnet.net>
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <31ed0d2c.8698142@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


>	Looks like "Any day now" really means 'Never'.

Certainly does if it is in reference to anything of value emanating
>from  the "Spirit 'n Paste Moranic Keyboard" [tm] - which only seems to
operate in one mode: .  Truth, honesty and reality are concepts that are so foreign
to Moran that he has banished them from his rigii - so that he can
continue deluding himself (and occasionally amuse the rest of us!).  

Moran obviously lives in the hope of attracting the attention and
support of like-minded (I use the word _extremely_ loosely) ignorant
twits.

hro

=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sun Jul 21 13:05:44 PDT 1996
Article: 51844 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!news.voicenet.com!netnews.upenn.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another word on Dachau
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 06:09:44 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 89
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4sshr2$pjv@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4smuvt$52o@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU> <4sn3dl$ftf@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4soktb$2r3@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU> <4ss2r5$5bc@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0114.tvs.net

In <4ss2r5$5bc@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt
Giwer) wrote:

>On 19 Jul 1996 11:41:47 -0700, rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J.
>Green) wrote:

>>[posted; e-mailed to jamie McCarthy in hopes that he can start an
>>archive of lies by Mr. Ehrlich]

>>In article <4sn3dl$ftf@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
>>Ehrlich606  wrote:
>>>In article <4smuvt$52o@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU>, rjg@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU
>>>(Richard J. Green) writes:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>After war, the Soviets made the charge at Nuremberg.  They claimed that
>>>>>Dr. Spanner of the Danzig Institute was making soap at the Institute,
>>>that
>>>>>he carved his recipe, which he got from some people in the countryside,
>>>>>onto a wooden plaque and had it posted on the wall of the basement. 
>>>>>Nobody else at the Institute knew anything about it.  About 25 kilos of
>>>>>this soap was prepared, which Dr. Spanner supposedly used for his
>>>laundry
>>>>>and also to wash himself.  In addition, there were vats of human skin
>>>that
>>>>>were being tanned for handbags and such.  The source for all this was
>>>the
>>>>>affidavit of Mazur.  I would love to have all of Mazur's
>>>>>affidavit/testimony posted.
>>>>
>>>>Yes, please do post this testimony.  I would like to see why you claim
>>>>there are obvious problems with Mazur's testimony.
>>>>
>>>
>>>I just did.  You are telling me that you believe what I just posted.  That
>>>settles that!  As for the testimony, I don't have it, perhaps you could
>>>ask Nizkor to post it.  It should have come towards the end of February,
>>>1946.  Naturally, Nuremberg historians do not reference this particular
>>>affidavit/testimony very often(!), so I can't be more specific than that.

>>Mr. Ehrlich, you are not being quite straightforward here.  Please quote
>>where I said that I believed anything that you posted.  You did not post
>>any comments on Mazur's testimony itself.  You have claimed that there
>>are obvious problems with it, but have not referenced it.  You have made
>>a claim without any evidence to support it.

>>>Not only do you believe everything I just posted, you also believe that
>>>there is nothing surprising about the fact that Dr. Spanner was unmolested
>>>for the rest of his life, not even being subjected to
>>>institutionalization.  OK. 

>>Mr. Ehrlich: you are a liar.  Not surprising with the company you keep.

>	Faced with facts you attack the messenger.   

>	You have to believe the "testimony" in order not find a problem with the
>testimony.  You are very gullible.  

Poor Ehrlich! ... So weak and bereft of fact are his arguments that he
has to send in the troll to defend him - which of course proves Mr.
Green's point.  And also proves one of mine:

Subject:      The Return of the Prodigal Poster  - Faustian Follies?
From:         hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Date:         1996/06/23
Message-Id:   <4qis3k$d6t@atlas.uniserve.com>



[...]

	It certainly does appear that you have sold your soul to the troll,
Mr. Ehrlich:
	In news.admin.net-abuse.misc, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:
	I for one agree with Matt Giwer, and I am willing to defend him on 	
	this. The Friends of Nizkor, as far as I can determine,  will stop at 
	nothing to destroy those with whom they disagree.  Mr. Giwer's 	
	actions in retaliation are completely justified.



hro

=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sun Jul 21 21:09:18 PDT 1996
Article: 51975 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The THE himself
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 07:30:50 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 41
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4ssmj3$q0f@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4ssdcq$9gu@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0225.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <4ssdcq$9gu@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt
Giwer) wrote:

>McVay, Kenneth (KM1343)                kmcvay@NIZKOR.ALMANAC.BC.CA
[address and phone no. snipped - once was more than enough]

>	Should anyone be interested for any purpose whatsoever.  

And of course Ehrlich will appear in all his remonstrative glory to
vilify the troll.  No doubt he will protest vehemently against this
"sleazy" post which moves beyond mere "threat of exposure" to wilful
"contempt for personal privacy."  

[Not that the information is not accessible to anyone who knows how to
access Internic (and probably more than is available on the AOL
members' directory).  But it _is_ the principle.   Come to think of
it, I haven't seen any evidence of "principles" from either Ehrlich or
the troll.]

Ooops, I almost forgot!  When it comes to Ehrlich [tm] and the troll, "revisionism" reaches the
apex of its glory.  Poor maligned, misunderstood paragons of virtue
that they are.

Still, any bets on whether we shall be regaled with "Excuses for
Ehrlich's good buddy, Matt" or "Sounds of Silence" (that familiar
refrain Ehrlich likes *so* much)?

Or will Ehrlich simply jump on his high horse and denounce my post as
"flame bait"?!  Or perhaps DvdThomas or Moran will ride to the rescue!

The suspense is almost too much to bear!

hro

=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sun Jul 21 22:22:25 PDT 1996
Article: 51992 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No historian has ever
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 06:35:43 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 21
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4ssjbo$pne@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4sptl9$p7q@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <31f0cf59.982168@news.pacificnet.net> <4ssbgk$bj1@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0114.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <4ssbgk$bj1@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt
Giwer) wrote:

[snip]

>	They are already using a pharmacist to discredit me.  Next will be a
>janitor.  

Bzzzzt.  Wrong Giwer-troll.  Your _own_ words discredit you, every
single time.  And you are so successful at discrediting yourself that
you are now discrediting Ehrlich who has for some reason (presumably
one that is known only to himself) decided to align himself with you.

hro

=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Mon Jul 22 09:00:22 PDT 1996
Article: 52165 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!overload.lbl.gov!agate!ossi.com!newsfeed1.aimnet.com!news1.best.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Program
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 20:01:23 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 36
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4sopqr$aqf@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4r43q6$iqp@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU> <4rfe69$3j38@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4rghpa$ctk@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <4rm17l$18ss@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <31DF33AB.528E@unb.ca> <4s1v1p$3hsm@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <31E6E99C.1256@unb.ca> <4sk7u2$32qq@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <31EEC72D.4370@unb.ca>
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In <31EEC72D.4370@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison  wrote:

>Gord McFee wrote:

>> >> Listen, Morriglu _in basement of UNB_, obviously taking a _puff_ of
>> _Hilltop
>> >> Hops_, I used the anglicized version to throw G*wer the Li*r off the
>> track.
>> >> Don't blow my c*ver.
>> 
>> >Srry, wsn't pyng ttntn t wht ws wrtng.
>> 
>> Good code!  Giwer will never understand it.  You are promoted, Agent
>> Morriglu.
>> 
>> >F y cn rd ths y hv ftr s cmptr prgrmmr.
>> 
>> Why would I want to be a computer programmer?  Oops!.......

>Mnad!  Won ew evah ot hctiws ot eht etanretla edoc.  Yllufepoh
>Rewig lliw ton eb elba ot etartenep ti (gnimmussa eh nac etartenep
>gnihtyna).

>--
>Thiek Nosirrom
>bnu@o80t

Tout est perdu!  Tu lui as donne le secret de la code.  Maintenant, il

faut qu'on trouve un autre.
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Tue Jul 23 20:23:45 PDT 1996
Article: 52656 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!hookup!news.mcgill.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!sunqbc.risq.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: ont.general,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,can.general,tor.general
Subject: Re: Hate Site Shut Down
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 01:47:44 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 28
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References: <4s5ciu$1s5@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca>  <735_9607141737@tor250.org>  <4si34p$6un@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4svebg$i4r@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca>
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In <4svebg$i4r@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca>, freedom@netcom.ca (Marc Lemire)
wrote:

[...]

>Marc

>         THE FREEDOM-SITE IN EXILE!: http://www.ftcnet.com/~freedom
>         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
                                                    ^^^^^^^
>            Digital Freedom BBS: (416) 462-3327, (416) 465-4767
>        NOW GET A FREEDOM CD-ROM FOR ONLY $30 - WRITE: cd-rom@df.org
>    Snail-Mail: 152 Carlton Street, Suite 545, Toronto, Ontario, M5A 2K0

Exile??!! What utter nonsense!  ftcnet _is_ in British Columbia.  Last
time I checked, BC was still part of Canada!  Have you been attending
the "Zundelschool of Self-Promotion and Martyrdom"[tm], Marc?!

But congratulations on the civility of your shorter sig-file!

hro

=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Wed Jul 24 07:09:39 PDT 1996
Article: 52770 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news1.wtn.mci.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!nntp.primenet.com!winternet.com!n1ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Slimey bastard McVay and company
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 09:55:44 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 32
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4t4s64$lfe@atlas.uniserve.com>
References:  <4so9po$8d9@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4spu1d$is8@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4t0enm$1gja@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4t377t$5lp@bell.maths.tcd.ie>
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In <4t377t$5lp@bell.maths.tcd.ie>, dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell)
wrote:

>gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) writes:
>>Gee, I wonder how many "one of your last warnings" Mr. McVay is going to get
>>from the Giwer-bot?  He's already had about ten.

>	Giwer's issued more "last warnings" than Sinatra's had "farewel
>concerts"!!!

>>File the lawsuit, gutless Giwer.  Make my day.

>	I'd love to see Prince Myshkin actually carry out one of his threats..
>then he'd fall flat on his face!!!

Actually, Derek, he doesn't need to carry out any of his "threats" -
the troll falls flat on his face everytime he engages his keyboard (as
is demonstrated here daily)

The only element of curiosity I see in his postings is that Ehrlich
and (to a lesser extent) DvdThomas seem to think that the troll's
keyboard spewings are simply an expression of "skepticism."  I guess
that the blindness of "revisionists" must extend beyond the reality of
the Holocaust.

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Wed Jul 24 07:09:40 PDT 1996
Article: 52771 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news1.wtn.mci.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!nntp.primenet.com!winternet.com!n1ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moving right along
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 09:55:47 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 41
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4t4s67$lfe@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4svjr1$83m@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <31F3DB01.7B5A@gryn.org> <4t1vh7$dd7@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> 
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In , dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:

># Now that we have clearly established there was no gassing
># any place at any time can we move on with this conference?

>Does anyone remember that fellow from Iraq, who was interviewed 
>(by CNN I think), right after the Gulf War ended?

>The guy kept screaming "we won! That's it! We won!".

>How pathetic. How sad and pathetic.

Well, not so fast Dr. Keren.  I am sure that in due course Ehrlich
will enlighten us by bringing his "impressive intellect and knowledge"
to bear and assuring us that the troll's declaration is quite correct
- or if not correct, then simply a legitimate expression of his
"skepticism"

There is another difference, of course, in that the fellow from Iraq
might not have had access to the facts (I didn't see the program, so I
don't know for sure!).  The troll, OTOH, does have access to the facts
but chooses to ignore them and/or lie.  After all the troll is only
capable of operating in two modes:  or 

hro







=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Wed Jul 24 07:09:40 PDT 1996
Article: 52772 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news1.wtn.mci.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!nntp.primenet.com!winternet.com!n1ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Silence You Almost Can Hear
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 09:55:48 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 37
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4t4s68$lfe@atlas.uniserve.com>
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In <4t3kr1$2ju@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
wrote:

[snip]

>OK, if I have missed a beat somewhere in here I sincerely apologize.  

Wow! A totally unsolicited and unexpected apology from Ehrlich.  And a
sincere one no less!

>As I
>recall, Matt started talking up suit a week or so ago, and I understood
>the basis was to get others to stop threatening him.  

Either your recollection is faulty (will we see another apology or was
the above another blanket apology - just like your "Play Ball" post?!)
or your comprehension is way off base.  Do tell us who was
"threatening" your dear friend, the boorish foul-mouthed troll.

>Then some guy called
>his Dad, and Matt blew his top.  I can't say I blame him.

If you pay as much attention to the details of the Holocaust as you do
to the details of postings in this newsgroup, Ehrlich, it is no wonder
that you arrive at the erroneous conclusions with which you so
frequently regale us.  

[pontification snipped]

hro

=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Wed Jul 24 07:09:41 PDT 1996
Article: 52773 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news1.wtn.mci.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!nntp.primenet.com!winternet.com!n1ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McFlea
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 09:55:51 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 44
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4t4s6b$lfe@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <23JUL199608125295@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4t3ccv$ro4@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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In <4t3ccv$ro4@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
wrote:

>In article <23JUL199608125295@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>,
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) writes:

>>
>>In article <4t25lq$gs4@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt
>>Giwer) writes...
>>>McFlea, McFly, it does not matter.
>>>This fool clams to be in his 50s and has the intellecutal age of a
>teenager.
>>>Beyond that, he is a greate defend of what he is incapable of
>understandiug.
>>
>>>After all, he is a mongoloid idiot behind a keyboard.  
>>
>>    Hmmm.  A well reasoned, well cited argument.  Maybe there is
>something
>>    to this Giwer guy afterall?
>>
>>    Not.

>The interesting thing about the name *McFlea* is that it means *son of
>flea.*  It is also interesting to note the Dr. Blaha's name is an old
>Slavic word for -- *flea.* Could it be?!

The interesting thing about the word "ehrlich" is that it means
"honest".  It is also interesting to note that one can say - in all
honesty - to the person who has adopted that nym in this newsgroup,
"You accept drivel from a troll."

hro




=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Wed Jul 24 07:09:42 PDT 1996
Article: 52783 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hello fellow truthseekers!
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 01:46:46 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 89
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4t3vhb$ii6@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <21JUL199614152855@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4sv0pf$lhm@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <4sv0pf$lhm@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
wrote:

>In article <21JUL199614152855@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>,
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) writes:

>Marty Kelley said:
>>> 
>>>You seem to be implying that historians in general (both academics and
>>>amateurs with an interest in historical study) are not interested in
>"what
>>>really happened."  Please clarify your comment: specifically, how do you
>>>explain the fact that vitually ALL academic historians who study WWII
>and
>>>German history (including historians IN Germany) universally accept the
>>>historical record of the Holocaust?  
>>
>>    This is a point, Marty, which has been raised here repeatedly and I
>>    don't recall seeing much of any response to this.  I would be
>>    interested in hearing what David Thomas has to say to this point as
>>    well.

[Ehrlich's cobblings snipped - didn't see anything he hasn't said
before.  But, like the boorish foul-mouthed troll whom he so admires,
he is trying - and becoming more so all the time]

One wonders if he uses a similar approach to teaching his "students"
(assuming that he really is a teacher)

>This is the problem: virtually all historians accept the Holocaust story,
>but they say virtually nothing about it.

Try again Ehrlich.  And this time perhaps you could show a little
respect for "facts" and "truth" instead of your habitual waffling and
"whitewashing" which, now that you have come out of the "denier
closet" is considerably more transparent than when you presented us
with your first re-invention of yourself.

Precisely _what_ would you like historians to say about the Holocaust,
Ehrlich?  Do you have some difficulty with the fact that so many have
examined the mountain of evidence that constitutes the historical
record - and that their conclusions bear no resemblance to those of
your much vaunted "revisionists" (who seem to prefer to ignore the
evidence)?

And, btw, the "cloak of skepticism" _you_ choose to don in order to
paint yourself as "different" from other "revisionists" is really
exactly the same colour as theirs:  you lie, you distort, and you play
posting games - just like the rest of them, because your "arguments,"
like theirs, have nothing solid to sustain them.

Ehrlich, the Holocaust is _not_ a "story", it is historical fact.
That's all.  But I did notice your silence on the following comment
earlier in this thread.  Perhaps you missed it:





>Be that as it may, I still cannot understand the constant 
>discussion on holocaust issues. I think it is passee (sp?). 
>The issues of importance are race, eugenics, economics, 
>etc...Holocaust denial or revisionism is part and parcel of 
>this train of thought, but not the only important issue. 
>For ex., the Holohoax should and can be seen as yet another 
>anti-goyim doing of the Talmudists vis-a-vis their Protocols. That is important! 



Do tell us again about the "impressive intellect and knowledge" which
you bring to bear while engaging in your "freedom to speculate",
Ehrlich.  (Perhaps you'd care to use it in explaining the above
excerpt.)

I particularly enjoyed your post the other day when you expressed your
"doubts" about the "scale of exterminations by gas."   As I recall,
you pronounced that - notwithstanding the chemical evidence presented
- you remained unconvinced because _you_ are a non-chemist.

Posted/emailed

hro

=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Thu Jul 25 06:39:08 PDT 1996
Article: 53032 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer's way with women
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 03:59:28 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 76
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4t6rls$qvl@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4t25lq$gs4@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4t2mpv$gd@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4t4qci$eg7@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>  <4t5e20$6a5@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0119.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <4t5e20$6a5@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, anny@ix.netcom.com(Annie
Alpert) wrote:

[text deleted for brevity - and because I'm too lazy to reformat for
clarity!]

>To which you, Sara, commented: 
> 
>>Welcome to the club! You and Hilary (ONE L, HILARY!!!) and I are part

Thanks Sara ;>) 

>>of a very select group. Our logic is so crystal-clear, and our debating
>>style so precise that we have belittled Mr. Giwer and brought his to
>>the basest of all attacks so far.
>> 
>>You asked, "why waste bandwidth with this type of tripe?" And of
>>course, Mr.  Giwer responded with "It is rather difficult to explain to
>>a fatbroadsuch as yourself."
>> 
>>The simple fact is: Mr. Giwer HAS no explanation and so responds with
>>his insults and name-callin.

And "explanations" would seem to be the least of many observable
"giwer-deficiencies"[tm]

>>His fixation with the women here would, in my opinion, draw only one
>>obvious conclusion: tiny penis.

Sounds reasonable to me.  Indeed this conclusion would seem to be
consistent with other known giwer-paucities (aka paupacies)

>Thanks Sara. The fact that Matty rushed to respond to my rather
>pointless note does, indeed, demonstrate his obsession with
>we-of-the-female-gender.  I've never met the guy but I betcha a dollar
>that he's short, old, bald and fat.  The small penis is a given, of
>course.  Male insecurity often materializes on the internet.  A guy
>doesn't have to look good, smell good or have a personality in order to
>get attention from strangers on the internet.  

OTOH, after several months of recycling himself and his drivel, he
_did_ manage to get the attention of Ehrlich ("independent denier"),
DvdThomas ("CODOH denier"), and Greg Raven "IHR website 'volunteer'
denier".  Raven has even given the troll a little corner of the IHR
website. Then again, perhaps such "serious" deniers are so hard-up for
support these days, they have to get it while they can.

Come to think of it, Ehrlich seems to enjoy echoing the troll in his
own posts.  Hmmm ... wonder what else they might have in common.

>A few well-chosen spams
>and WHAMMO!, the guy's an instant celebrity.  Kind of sad, really.  If
>he had a life, he wouldn't have to debase himself so.  

I rather think the "celebrity" status goes no further than his own
"163 IQ mind."  Seems to me he's made his bed - and he's choosing to
lie in it.

>I notice that the IHR and the other organized deniers have taken a
>powder since Matt joined us.  I doubt they want to be associated with
>an obvious fake like him.  In a way, we should thank him for that.  

The only one who ever admitted to taking a powder was Moran.  But that
was back in December, I think.  Didn't help him though, as you may
have noticed.  As for "organized deniers" not wanting to be associated
with the troll, please see above.

hro


=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Thu Jul 25 06:39:09 PDT 1996
Article: 53040 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Brown the hypocrite
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 04:08:10 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 32
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4t6s67$r0s@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4s4cad$fbe@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4s5svv$5ro@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <4s8q12$dgi@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4sftfb$1s90@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4sguhn$3vr@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <4shulv$l9n@atlas.uniserve.com> <4sqf37$722@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4stneb$ql5@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <4t3kh6$246q@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4t6is8$ns0@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:37058 alt.politics.nationalism.white:26110 alt.discrimination:50960 alt.revisionism:53040

In <4t6is8$ns0@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>, Laura Finsten
 wrote:

>gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>[...]

>>>>Excuse me.  You have been ordered to turn in the condo.  
>>>>Go ahead and sue.
>>>>I already have my attorney picked out.


>>>Where did you ever get the idea that I *take* orders, McFelinevay?

>>We *ALL* take orders from the one true ZOG.  But you know that Finstenstein.


>I think its time to hand in my resignation....    

Oh sure, Finstenstein!  Well, you realize if you resign I'll have to
reprogram all the damn decoder rings.  Couldn't you just do like I do
and take the order, file it appropriately, then just carry on?!




=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Thu Jul 25 20:02:04 PDT 1996
Article: 53240 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!globe.indirect.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!news.inc.net!trellis.wwnet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hello fellow truthseekers!
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 04:16:55 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 29
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4t6smj$r37@atlas.uniserve.com>
References:    <4t1073$j8j@shiva.usa.net> <838253398snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>
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In <838253398snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>, Alexander Baron
 wrote:

>In article <4t1073$j8j@shiva.usa.net> hkatz@earth.usa.net "Harry Katz" writes:

>> For one, the Talmud is not "anti-goyim."  For another, the so-called
>> "Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion" is a forgery, and a crude
>> one at that.

>One more time Harry, what has the Protocols of Zion to do with Holocaust
>Revisionism?

One more time, Lyin Al, why did you edit Mr. Katz' post so
dishonestly?  

In any event, the forgery in question has nothing to do with
historical revisionism.  Nor does it have anything to do with the
Holocaust.  It does however seem to be of interest to those who
mistakenly call themselves "revisionists" and/or those - who like the
poster Mr. Katz was responding to - have delusions that there is some
merit to so-called "revisionist" arguments.

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Fri Jul 26 05:08:03 PDT 1996
Article: 53275 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.mcgill.ca!DMI.USherb.CA!sunqbc.risq.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: can.politics,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.personals.intercultural,soc.couples.intercultural,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.censorship,news.groups
Subject: Re: Ken McVay and Rich Graves support censorship
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 05:09:36 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 30
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4t9k53$7d9@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4s5b5c$1s5@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca>  <4ss1co$eq@Networking.Stanford.EDU>  <4ssifd$1b2@Networking.Stanford.EDU> <005304Z22071996@anon.penet.fi> <4sun4t$rln@news1.panix.com> <093312Z22071996@anon.penet.fi> <4t9epn$972@news.pyrotechnics.com>
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In <4t9epn$972@news.pyrotechnics.com>, scallon@pyrotechnics.com
(Brendan J. F. Scallon) wrote:

>For those of you who do not understand:

>Kenneth McVay started the Nizkor Project after he stumbled across Dan
>Gannon's revisionist BBS (denies the Holocaust).  His Nizkor Project
>had millions of byltes of data about the Holocaust and info about the
>revisionists (i.e. Gannon, Les Greaseball, Rich Graves, Kevin Alfred
>Strom, etc.); He was awarded the Order of British Columbia for his
>work.

Excuse me, Mr. Scallon, but I think you are mistaken about Rich
Graves.  He may have some quirky views about some stuff, but I don't
think we are ready to call him a "revisionist" yet   Perhaps you
are thinking about _George_ Graves who made a brief appearance here
some months ago.  But if you ask Rich _Green_, I think he has "the
program" with all the players listed:>)

posted/e-mailed

[follow-ups set to alt.revisionism]

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Fri Jul 26 05:08:04 PDT 1996
Article: 53305 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer's way with women
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 07:07:54 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 36
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4t9r2t$84o@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4t25lq$gs4@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4t2mpv$gd@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4t4qci$eg7@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>  <4t6j8m$ns0@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <4t94g4$pes@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <4t94g4$pes@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
wrote:

>In article <4t6j8m$ns0@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>, Laura Finsten
> said:


>>Hey, he called me fatbroad too!!  Couldn't answer my question about
>>cranial fusion, so he decided to try to insult me.

>If I am not mistaken, the only people who have been called "fat broad" or
>variously "fatbroad" by Giwer-goo have been Hilary, Annie, Sara and Laura. 
>I must protest at this blatant sexism, and demand reparations immediately. 
>I don't see why *I* can't be called "fatbroad" too.  I'm not female, but
>that's not the point.

>Fair is fair!

Gee, you're right, Gord!  Let's see if we can rationalize this so that
you can join our exclusive club:  hmmm ... well, I'm not at all "fat"
[although I understand that I hold the record for being addressed as
such] so if I can be dubbed "fatbroad" you could probably be called
"fatbroad" too, even though you are not female.  Of course if you are
not "fat" either, I'm not sure how we can accommodate a "double
negative" ... perhaps you could consider going on a special diet to
gain weight?  Failing that, we could just call you an "honorary
fatbroad." Would that do?!

hro
  
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Fri Jul 26 05:08:05 PDT 1996
Article: 53324 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Brown the hypocrite
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 04:01:44 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 38
Distribution: world
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In <4t94du$1n00@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
wrote:

>In article <4t6is8$ns0@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>, Laura Finsten
> said:

>>
>>gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>>[...]

>>>>>Excuse me.  You have been ordered to turn in the condo.  
>>>>>Go ahead and sue.
>>>>>I already have my attorney picked out.


>>>>Where did you ever get the idea that I *take* orders, McFelinevay?

>>>We *ALL* take orders from the one true ZOG.  But you know that
>Finstenstein.


>>I think its time to hand in my resignation....    

>This means I get the condo, right?

Bzzzt.  Wrong. McFarthyvay.  The condo is MINE!  Besides, agent
Finstenstein isn't resigning.  She's agreed to take the order (with or
without anchovies)

hro

=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Fri Jul 26 05:08:06 PDT 1996
Article: 53349 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news1.wtn.mci.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Clean hands
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 06:19:11 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 51
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4t9o7i$7oi@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4ssdcq$9gu@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <21JUL199608081023@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4sv92b$huv@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <4t04qm$jgu@access5.digex.net> <4t1qd7$lfq@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4t5hk6$fge@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <4t6rk7$3a2@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
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In <4t6rk7$3a2@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt
Giwer) wrote:


>	Lets review the bidding. [...]

A sure sign that the troll is about to engage in anything but.  The
witless lying troll doesn't even know this is a _ball_ game, not a
_Bridge_ game.

[random recycled lie-pastings snipped]

>	It will not be my credibility or what I can prove only.  

Of course it will not be the troll's credibility.  He has none!  And
the only thing he can prove is that he's a liar (and not a very good
one at that).  

>There will be plenty
>of supporting information to cover this matter completely.  

Indeed lots and lots of supporting information to cover this matter
completely.

[...]

>	I have five people who have been involved besides me.  [...]

My how fascinating.  Who would have thought there were 6 trolls all
named g*wer? Probably a case of multiple disordered personalities.

>	I will be quite curious how this one goes down.  

He's so obtuse he doesn't even realize that, while we might have
considered him quite curious in his early days here, after his second
recycling he became entirely too predictable to have even the
slightest curiosity value.

[more trollipcisms[tm] snipped]

Your turn now Ehrlich!  Jump on your moral high horse and impress us
with your intellect and knowledge as you aid and abet the hapless,
helpless, hopeless troll.

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Fri Jul 26 05:08:06 PDT 1996
Article: 53350 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news1.wtn.mci.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: auschwitz:myths and facts
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 06:19:13 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 42
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4t9o7j$7oi@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <5ca_9607251736@tor250.org> <4t9d25$g0u@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <4t9d25$g0u@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, the troll wrote:

[..]

>	What is fascinating that so many like you will use the "just luck" rather than
>dismiss the entire story for the nonsense it is.  It is this passionate
>attraction to stories that bear no relation to reality that fascinates me.  

My what a pseudo-rational paragraph from the troll.  What he neglects
to mention (as do all "revisionist scholars" when they encounter such
reports) is that the "passionate attraction" is attributable only to
the "revisionists" themselves!

They are so bereft of logic or reason in their "arguments" that they
remain in perpetually recycled focus on such *apparently*
"unbelievable" details in order to engage in their deceptive
practices. In this case, to persuade those who - through no fault of
their own - might not know better, that all such testimony is not to
be believed, ergo the Holocaust didn't happen.

And the witless troll, rather than dealing with the reality of the
Holocaust, simply parrots whatever he pastes and appends whatever
insult or ad hominem strikes his fancy.  

However, the troll has demonstrated that he is totally incapable of
dealing with _any_ reality.  So this behaviour is not in the least
surprising.  It is a waste of time and bandwidth, but he is so
predictable that it is what we have come to expect from him.

If you are a newcomer to this newsgroup, you just might want to point
your web browser to:

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/

hro

=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sat Jul 27 11:57:26 PDT 1996
Article: 53469 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: To Ken McVay
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 04:02:11 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 25
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4t9g6n$6t7@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4sna73$7s7@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4sse2o$out@access5.digex.net> <4ssh4o$er6@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4stekh$45l@access5.digex.net> <4sv721$3l2@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <4t30n0$15o@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <4t4cq8$3i3@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4t8af3$36m@shiva.usa.net>
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In <4t8af3$36m@shiva.usa.net>, hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <4t4cq8$3i3@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt  Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) whines:

>	But it turns out to be a fellow holohugger.  They are all alike.

>Guilt by association!  This is a logical fallacy.

>I will not say that Mr. Giwer already knows this, as I am now
>convinced that his IQ is well below 163 (probably below 113).

Regardless of his IQ (which I would be inclined to think is probably
below 83) the one thing we _can_ be assured of is that the troll is
profoundly ignorant of all matters on which he proclaims himself
knowledgeable.

hro

=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sat Jul 27 11:57:27 PDT 1996
Article: 53512 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Schott, Keyes, & Hitler  Re: FREE SPEECH?
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 19:17:15 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 55
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4tb5qf$c9g@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4tae0p$3u70@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4tan29$pdi@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0215.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <4tan29$pdi@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
wrote:

>In article <4tae0p$3u70@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord
>McFee) writes:

>>
>>In article <4t3hrf$13g@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
>>(Ehrlich606) said:
>>

[...]

>>>the answers.  With respect to *ausrotten*, I am sure you are aware that
>>>Koppell Pinson, a noted Jewish historian and Simon Dubnow epigone, and
>>>therefore fluent in both German _and_ Yiddish, translated *aurotten* as
>>>*clearing out.*
>>
>>Mr. Ehrlich, you may have noticed that we have been around the
>"ausrotten"
>>mulberry bush dozens of times in this newsgroup.  When the word is
>applied
>>to living things (see the definition below), it *always* means "to
>>exterminate".  This has been settled.
>>
>>

[Note: ehrlich seems to have deleted the definition provided by Mr.
McFee]

>Uh huh.  So take it up with the manes of Koppel Pinson, who, btw, I am
>quoting from his extremely germanophobe *Modern German History.* 

Really?!  So in other words, you _again_ take no responsibility for
_your_ posts.  How Giwerish of you, Ehrlich.  Oh, and btw, can we
reasonably assume that your "quoting" was as selective as your recent
"quoting" from Lipstadt?

Is this simply another exercise of your "freedom to speculate" or is
it a function of your "skepticism"?  If the latter do you "remain
unconvinced" because you do not speak German - as you were following
presentation of chemical evidence because you were not a chemist?  

Do tell us again about your "impressive intellect and knowledge,"
Ehrlich.

posted/e-mailed to Ehrlich and Mr. McFee

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sat Jul 27 11:57:27 PDT 1996
Article: 53629 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.reed.edu!camelot.ccs.neu.edu!nntp.neu.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!bone.think.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!mr.net!winternet.com!n1ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: auschwitz:myths and facts
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 21:13:15 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 35
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4tbcju$d02@atlas.uniserve.com>
References:   <4t4m57$ak3@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>   <31f8cdd3.478891@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0204.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <31f8cdd3.478891@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) wrote:

>jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>
>>> You are mentally retarded. It's the only conclusion I can
>>> make. There is no way that a normal person wouldn't have
>>> understood such a thing, after so many times.
>>
>>Danny, he's a _troll_.  He's deliberately saying stupid things in
>>order to make people talk about him and to distract from the facts
>>of the Holocaust.

>	J a m i e, the only names I see above are "Jamie McCarthy" and
>"Daniel Keren". Now when you say, "Danny, he's a _troll_. He's ...
>saying stupid things ...", I take it you are talking about Keren.

Trust Li'l Tommy!  I think he _thinks_ he's being *clever* - and this
is about as clever as Moran ever gets, folks.  Of course, if he ever
learned how to follow a thread - and/or developed the reading
comprehension skills and knowledge of grammar that every 10-year old
kid has - poor Li'l Tommy would find out very quickly that, on a scale
of 1 to 10, his *cleverness rating* is probably somewhere in the range
of 

hro

=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sat Jul 27 11:57:28 PDT 1996
Article: 53718 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Score -- posting stats, June 22-July 19
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 05:05:56 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 23
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4tc8a1$fc4@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4t6aum$4fq@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4t7bi7$iu9@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <25JUL199609164840@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4t9gqi$odo@access5.digex.net> <26JUL199617060228@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0326.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <26JUL199617060228@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>,
dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

[snip]

>>    Could not get a friend (assuming you have one) to send a message for
>>you?  But I suppose a mere 163 IQ type could not think of that.

>    Baby Giwer (the son) has an email account.  Ken probably doesn't have
>    that account blocked.

>    Of course, we don't know what the son thinks of his father either.

Probably considers him as an unholy ghost ;>)

hro

=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sat Jul 27 11:57:29 PDT 1996
Article: 53719 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!news-out.microserve.net!news-in.microserve.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Feminist Critique of the Holocaust
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 05:22:05 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 38
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4tc98a$feb@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4tc379$5rg@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <4tc379$5rg@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt
Giwer) wrote:

>http://remember.org/educate/ccrit.html

Actually the URL that works is:

http://www.remember.org/educate/ccrit.html

[troll's useless comment snipped]

This page is actually one of a series of essays that are part of the
site.  For an appropriate context, the reader may wish to start at the
Introduction:

http://www.remember.org/educate/cintro.html

"[...] I will examine in depth three examples of Holocaust memoirs by
women: From Ashes to Life, by survivor Lucille E., the venerable Diary
of Anne Frank, and Life? or Theater?, the autobiographical pictorial
operetta of Charlotte Salomon, who died at Auschwitz (and Mary
Lowenthal Felstiner's investigation of her work). I do not hope or
plan to reach a satisfying conclusion, all loose ends neatly tied up.
Such an ambition would belittle the enormous complexity and dreadful
scope of the Shoah. Instead, this paper seeks to put all these
different strains of inquiry and different authors into dialogue with
one another, rotating them between the three general areas of
feminism, Holocaust Studies, and the concept of memoir.

hro


=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sat Jul 27 12:38:45 PDT 1996
Article: 26174 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Brown the hypocrite
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 04:01:44 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 38
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4t9g5t$6t7@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4s4cad$fbe@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4s5svv$5ro@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <4s8q12$dgi@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4sftfb$1s90@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4sguhn$3vr@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <4shulv$l9n@atlas.uniserve.com> <4sqf37$722@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4stneb$ql5@informer1.cis.McMast <4t6is8$ns0@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <4t94du$1n00@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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In <4t94du$1n00@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
wrote:

>In article <4t6is8$ns0@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>, Laura Finsten
> said:

>>
>>gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>>[...]

>>>>>Excuse me.  You have been ordered to turn in the condo.  
>>>>>Go ahead and sue.
>>>>>I already have my attorney picked out.


>>>>Where did you ever get the idea that I *take* orders, McFelinevay?

>>>We *ALL* take orders from the one true ZOG.  But you know that
>Finstenstein.


>>I think its time to hand in my resignation....    

>This means I get the condo, right?

Bzzzt.  Wrong. McFarthyvay.  The condo is MINE!  Besides, agent
Finstenstein isn't resigning.  She's agreed to take the order (with or
without anchovies)

hro

=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sat Jul 27 12:40:53 PDT 1996
Article: 37147 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Brown the hypocrite
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 04:01:44 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 38
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4t9g5t$6t7@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4s4cad$fbe@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4s5svv$5ro@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <4s8q12$dgi@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4sftfb$1s90@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4sguhn$3vr@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <4shulv$l9n@atlas.uniserve.com> <4sqf37$722@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4stneb$ql5@informer1.cis.McMast <4t6is8$ns0@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <4t94du$1n00@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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In <4t94du$1n00@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
wrote:

>In article <4t6is8$ns0@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>, Laura Finsten
> said:

>>
>>gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>>[...]

>>>>>Excuse me.  You have been ordered to turn in the condo.  
>>>>>Go ahead and sue.
>>>>>I already have my attorney picked out.


>>>>Where did you ever get the idea that I *take* orders, McFelinevay?

>>>We *ALL* take orders from the one true ZOG.  But you know that
>Finstenstein.


>>I think its time to hand in my resignation....    

>This means I get the condo, right?

Bzzzt.  Wrong. McFarthyvay.  The condo is MINE!  Besides, agent
Finstenstein isn't resigning.  She's agreed to take the order (with or
without anchovies)

hro

=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sat Jul 27 12:51:15 PDT 1996
Article: 1954 of alt.fan.ernst-zundel
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.mcgill.ca!DMI.USherb.CA!sunqbc.risq.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: can.politics,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.personals.intercultural,soc.couples.intercultural,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.censorship,news.groups
Subject: Re: Ken McVay and Rich Graves support censorship
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 05:09:36 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 30
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4t9k53$7d9@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4s5b5c$1s5@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca>  <4ss1co$eq@Networking.Stanford.EDU>  <4ssifd$1b2@Networking.Stanford.EDU> <005304Z22071996@anon.penet.fi> <4sun4t$rln@news1.panix.com> <093312Z22071996@anon.penet.fi> <4t9epn$972@news.pyrotechnics.com>
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In <4t9epn$972@news.pyrotechnics.com>, scallon@pyrotechnics.com
(Brendan J. F. Scallon) wrote:

>For those of you who do not understand:

>Kenneth McVay started the Nizkor Project after he stumbled across Dan
>Gannon's revisionist BBS (denies the Holocaust).  His Nizkor Project
>had millions of byltes of data about the Holocaust and info about the
>revisionists (i.e. Gannon, Les Greaseball, Rich Graves, Kevin Alfred
>Strom, etc.); He was awarded the Order of British Columbia for his
>work.

Excuse me, Mr. Scallon, but I think you are mistaken about Rich
Graves.  He may have some quirky views about some stuff, but I don't
think we are ready to call him a "revisionist" yet   Perhaps you
are thinking about _George_ Graves who made a brief appearance here
some months ago.  But if you ask Rich _Green_, I think he has "the
program" with all the players listed:>)

posted/e-mailed

[follow-ups set to alt.revisionism]

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sat Jul 27 12:52:16 PDT 1996
Article: 91207 of alt.censorship
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.mcgill.ca!DMI.USherb.CA!sunqbc.risq.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: can.politics,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.personals.intercultural,soc.couples.intercultural,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.censorship,news.groups
Subject: Re: Ken McVay and Rich Graves support censorship
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 05:09:36 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 30
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4t9k53$7d9@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4s5b5c$1s5@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca>  <4ss1co$eq@Networking.Stanford.EDU>  <4ssifd$1b2@Networking.Stanford.EDU> <005304Z22071996@anon.penet.fi> <4sun4t$rln@news1.panix.com> <093312Z22071996@anon.penet.fi> <4t9epn$972@news.pyrotechnics.com>
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In <4t9epn$972@news.pyrotechnics.com>, scallon@pyrotechnics.com
(Brendan J. F. Scallon) wrote:

>For those of you who do not understand:

>Kenneth McVay started the Nizkor Project after he stumbled across Dan
>Gannon's revisionist BBS (denies the Holocaust).  His Nizkor Project
>had millions of byltes of data about the Holocaust and info about the
>revisionists (i.e. Gannon, Les Greaseball, Rich Graves, Kevin Alfred
>Strom, etc.); He was awarded the Order of British Columbia for his
>work.

Excuse me, Mr. Scallon, but I think you are mistaken about Rich
Graves.  He may have some quirky views about some stuff, but I don't
think we are ready to call him a "revisionist" yet   Perhaps you
are thinking about _George_ Graves who made a brief appearance here
some months ago.  But if you ask Rich _Green_, I think he has "the
program" with all the players listed:>)

posted/e-mailed

[follow-ups set to alt.revisionism]

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sat Jul 27 12:55:27 PDT 1996
Article: 60713 of can.politics
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.mcgill.ca!DMI.USherb.CA!sunqbc.risq.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: can.politics,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.personals.intercultural,soc.couples.intercultural,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.censorship,news.groups
Subject: Re: Ken McVay and Rich Graves support censorship
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 05:09:36 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 30
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4t9k53$7d9@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4s5b5c$1s5@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca>  <4ss1co$eq@Networking.Stanford.EDU>  <4ssifd$1b2@Networking.Stanford.EDU> <005304Z22071996@anon.penet.fi> <4sun4t$rln@news1.panix.com> <093312Z22071996@anon.penet.fi> <4t9epn$972@news.pyrotechnics.com>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca can.politics:60713 alt.revisionism:53275 soc.culture.jewish:64495 alt.personals.intercultural:1769 soc.couples.intercultural:17173 alt.fan.ernst-zundel:1954 alt.censorship:91207 news.groups:146736

In <4t9epn$972@news.pyrotechnics.com>, scallon@pyrotechnics.com
(Brendan J. F. Scallon) wrote:

>For those of you who do not understand:

>Kenneth McVay started the Nizkor Project after he stumbled across Dan
>Gannon's revisionist BBS (denies the Holocaust).  His Nizkor Project
>had millions of byltes of data about the Holocaust and info about the
>revisionists (i.e. Gannon, Les Greaseball, Rich Graves, Kevin Alfred
>Strom, etc.); He was awarded the Order of British Columbia for his
>work.

Excuse me, Mr. Scallon, but I think you are mistaken about Rich
Graves.  He may have some quirky views about some stuff, but I don't
think we are ready to call him a "revisionist" yet   Perhaps you
are thinking about _George_ Graves who made a brief appearance here
some months ago.  But if you ask Rich _Green_, I think he has "the
program" with all the players listed:>)

posted/e-mailed

[follow-ups set to alt.revisionism]

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sun Jul 28 07:10:30 PDT 1996
Article: 53785 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!tezcat.com!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Nizkor
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 18:55:39 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 45
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4tdoto$ke8@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <31d921ee.5817326@news.pacificnet.net> <31ee3850.492128@news.pacificnet.net> <31f0d57a.2550332@news.pacificnet.net> <4ss9ft$ksk@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <31f9fef7.228597@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0120.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <31f9fef7.228597@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran
aka the denier in search of a persona) wrote:

[without acknowledging that this is yet another of his *clever* spirit
'n paste posts taken out of context]

>Trust Li'l Tommy!  I think he _thinks_ he's being *clever* - and this
>is about as clever as Moran ever gets, folks.  Of course, if he ever
>learned how to follow a thread - and/or developed the reading
>comprehension skills and knowledge of grammar that every 10-year old
>kid has - poor Li'l Tommy would find out very quickly that, on a scale
>of 1 to 10, his *cleverness rating* is probably somewhere in the range
>of 

>hro
>Hilary Ostrov

In light of Tommy's tendency[1] to argue vehemently and/or
unintelligibly against any post containing factual information he
doesn't understand (or feigns not to understand), one might reasonably
assume that the merciful absence of his inanities, when he plays this
little game, is an indication of his concurrence with the points I am
making.

Thank you Li'l Tommy.  Although, in all modesty, I rather think that
readers who do visit Nizkor will agree that this thread is very
inappropriately named.  Why not put your *cleverness* to work Li'l
Tommy and see if you can come up with a different title for the
thread.

[1] Li'l Tommy also has other tendencies - the predominant one being a
tendency to lie.   For a brief sample of this, as well as a
demonstration of his apparent inability to read, please see: 

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/m/moran-tom/

hro


=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sun Jul 28 07:10:31 PDT 1996
Article: 53789 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!nntp.primenet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer's way with women
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 21:39:00 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 40
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4te2g0$lcd@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4t25lq$gs4@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4t2mpv$gd@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4t4qci$eg7@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>  <4t6j8m$ns0@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <4t94g4$pes@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4t9r2t$84o@atlas.uniserve.com> 
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In , Nele Abels
 wrote:

>Ah, cut out that "fatbroad". I claim the record, or has the big MG
>called anybody else "murder"?

>Nele

Hmmm ... well, you may hold the record for being dubbed "murderer" by
the troll-bot, but I don't think *it* has ever called _you_ a
"fatbroad.":>)

Of course, what Giwer, Moran, H*ber, Kreiberg, "Vyshinsky" et al fail
to realize is that the more they recycle their ignorant and/or
hate-filled drivel, the more they damn themselves in the eyes of
reasonable people.  

While their stupidity seems to know no bounds, their misinformed MUSH
[Multi User Senseless Harpings] - whether misanthropic, misogynistic
or merely malevolent - invariably merges into merit-free monotony.
This MUSH holds no appeal whatsoever except - as we have seen here on
occasion - to *like-minded* societal misfits.

No doubt their ineptitude and ignorance preclude their paying heed to
the "early ehrlichian wisdom"[tm] that people here are judged solely
by what they say.  Mind you, it seems that since Ehrlich came out of
the denier-closet, he isn't paying heed to that either - so why should
they?!

Why _anyone_ would want to censor - or otherwise limit access to -
their MUSH is completely beyond me!   There is no doubt in my mind
that all MUSH-makers are their own worst enemies.

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sun Jul 28 07:10:32 PDT 1996
Article: 53790 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Logical Conclusion
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 21:39:04 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 33
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4te2g3$lcd@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <31f78864.5556817@news.pacificnet.net> <4tc327$3166@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <31fa04c3.1711737@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0201.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <31fa04c3.1711737@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran aka the denier in search of a persona) wrote:

>gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>>In article <31f78864.5556817@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>>moran) said:
>>
>>>	
>>>	Whenever any articles and/or exachanges are posted on a format like a
>>>Interent newsgroup it should be recognized that they are also directed to
>>>whoever reads it, the random reader, even though any exchanges may be
>>>between particular parties.
>>
>>Thank you for this gem, Mr. Moron.  Those of us who have been around for a
>>time would never have figured this out.
>	
>>Gord McFee

>	If you figured it out, how come you keep posting idiotic ravings?

Tsk.Tsk.Tsk.  I see that poor Li'l Tommy is posting questions
addressed to himself again.  Must be time for him to take another
powder.

hro

=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sun Jul 28 07:10:32 PDT 1996
Article: 53898 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.total.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n2ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer is a moron beyond words... (was McVay, never a M
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 21:38:58 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 18
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4te2ft$lcd@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4t6lbi$93t@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4t72af$saa@news.enter.net> <4t7aon$6cd@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4tc30q$3t9a@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0201.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <4tc30q$3t9a@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
wrote:


>Of course, there is a world conspiracy against poor little Mattie-goo.  It
>is lead by hobgoblins and ghosts.

Come on Gord, don't exaggerate ... we all know it is a conspiracy of
one:  The only hobgoblin conspiring against the troll is the troll
himself (although sometimes his friendly ghost-writer helps him out)

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sun Jul 28 07:10:33 PDT 1996
Article: 53910 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!panix!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Schlindler's List boring
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 06:20:51 GMT
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In <040312Z28071996@anon.penet.fi>, an572010@anon.penet.fi (Vyshinsky)
wrote:

>dkeren@world.std.com writes:

>> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>> 
>> # It makes the sadist in him feel good.  
>> 
>> This from Matt Giwer, who:
>> 
>> 1) Continuously calls posters here "dumb fuck", "piece of
>>    shit", "fat broad", etc.
>> 
>> 2) Jokes about photographs showing women being shot to death.
>> 
>> 3) Jokes about testimonies describing mass murder of innocent
>>    people by the Nazis.
>> 
>> 4) Posted, if memory serves my right, that it was "good" that
>>    his wife died.
>> 
>> 5) States that the US should have responded to the erroneous
>>    attack on the USS Liberty (during the 1967 Arab-Israeli War),
>>    by killing hundreds-of-thousands of Israeli civilians.
>>    
>> And this maniac is calling other people "sadists". Now that's
>> a joke.

OK, trolling anonymous one, please do explain what possible relevance
_Schindler's List_ (note the correct spelling, btw) - and/or the
bandwidth-wasting blathering you posted - has to the above response
>from  Dr. Keren.

Are you gearing up to be the new, improved G*wer-troll after he's run
himself out of this newsgroup?  OTOH, if you simply want to prove your
ignorance, you've already succeeded admirably and no further
demonstrations are required.

Gee, maybe you will get lucky, Vyshinsky, and Ehrlich will jump on his
high horse to cloak you with credibility as well.

[baiting blather snipped]

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sun Jul 28 07:10:34 PDT 1996
Article: 53917 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'Holocaust Revisionism' Nonsense (Re: Noah & other bible myths)
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 21:39:02 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
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In , karlpov@access5.digex.net (Charles
R.L. Power) wrote:

> writes:

>>Subject: Re: 'Holocaust Revisionism' Nonsense (Re: Noah & other
>>bible myths)
>>From: Bill Smith, w.smith@ix.netcom.com
>>Date: 24 Jul 1996 21:09:45 GMT

>>>I don't quite get the Holocaust Revisionists.  On the one hand they
>>>seem to be saying there was no Nazi Holocaust.  On the other, they
>>seem
>>>to say that if there had been it would have been a good idea.

>>You're right. You don't *quite* get it. The Deniers creed
>>is that there was no Holocaust perpetrated by the Nazis, but
>>the Nazis were right to kill all those Jews.

>Someone with a better wit than mine attributed to denier Greg Raven
>the slogan "Never! More!", the most succinct formulation of this
>attitude I've yet seen.

I'm sure you want to give credit where credit is due, Mr. Power.  I
believe the wit belongs to Danny Mittleman - and the immortal words
not to Raven, but to H*uber.

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sun Jul 28 07:44:12 PDT 1996
Article: 64495 of soc.culture.jewish
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.mcgill.ca!DMI.USherb.CA!sunqbc.risq.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: can.politics,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,alt.personals.intercultural,soc.couples.intercultural,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.censorship,news.groups
Subject: Re: Ken McVay and Rich Graves support censorship
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 05:09:36 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
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Distribution: world
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In <4t9epn$972@news.pyrotechnics.com>, scallon@pyrotechnics.com
(Brendan J. F. Scallon) wrote:

>For those of you who do not understand:

>Kenneth McVay started the Nizkor Project after he stumbled across Dan
>Gannon's revisionist BBS (denies the Holocaust).  His Nizkor Project
>had millions of byltes of data about the Holocaust and info about the
>revisionists (i.e. Gannon, Les Greaseball, Rich Graves, Kevin Alfred
>Strom, etc.); He was awarded the Order of British Columbia for his
>work.

Excuse me, Mr. Scallon, but I think you are mistaken about Rich
Graves.  He may have some quirky views about some stuff, but I don't
think we are ready to call him a "revisionist" yet   Perhaps you
are thinking about _George_ Graves who made a brief appearance here
some months ago.  But if you ask Rich _Green_, I think he has "the
program" with all the players listed:>)

posted/e-mailed

[follow-ups set to alt.revisionism]

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sun Jul 28 08:05:14 PDT 1996
Article: 51011 of alt.discrimination
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Brown the hypocrite
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 04:01:44 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 38
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4t9g5t$6t7@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4s4cad$fbe@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4s5svv$5ro@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <4s8q12$dgi@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4sftfb$1s90@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4sguhn$3vr@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <4shulv$l9n@atlas.uniserve.com> <4sqf37$722@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4stneb$ql5@informer1.cis.McMast <4t6is8$ns0@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <4t94du$1n00@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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In <4t94du$1n00@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
wrote:

>In article <4t6is8$ns0@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>, Laura Finsten
> said:

>>
>>gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>>[...]

>>>>>Excuse me.  You have been ordered to turn in the condo.  
>>>>>Go ahead and sue.
>>>>>I already have my attorney picked out.


>>>>Where did you ever get the idea that I *take* orders, McFelinevay?

>>>We *ALL* take orders from the one true ZOG.  But you know that
>Finstenstein.


>>I think its time to hand in my resignation....    

>This means I get the condo, right?

Bzzzt.  Wrong. McFarthyvay.  The condo is MINE!  Besides, agent
Finstenstein isn't resigning.  She's agreed to take the order (with or
without anchovies)

hro

=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sun Jul 28 08:07:26 PDT 1996
Article: 53946 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!panix!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A recounting
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 06:20:49 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 15
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4tf126$nui@atlas.uniserve.com>
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In <4te9q7$pa4@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt
Giwer) wrote:

>	When I first posted this I thought of it as a joke.

Actually whenever and whatever the troll posts, I think of the troll
as a joke (a very sick one, but a joke nonetheless)

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sun Jul 28 12:40:54 PDT 1996
Article: 53956 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!tezcat.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-chi-8.sprintlink.net!EU.net!Norway.EU.net!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 20:01:33 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 33
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4sopr5$aqf@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <31e5067f.59385559@news.zilker.net> <4s42po$fcm@news.enter.net> <31E6D375.52F@unb.ca> <4s6o05$hcc@atlas.uniserve.com> <31E7E0F9.1D8E@unb.ca> <4seetb$9uk@atlas.uniserve.com> <31EC10DF.1B5@unb.ca> <4shm0s$kgb@atlas.uniserve.com> <31EEBD8D.6D5D@unb.ca>
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In <31EEBD8D.6D5D@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison  wrote:

>Hilary Ostrov wrote:

>> >> Hah!  Well, I didn't really want to have to tell you this, but I lied.
>> >> Superior ZOGGIES of the West (and the best) actually _get paid_ to go
>> >> see the movie.  The fifteen percent discount is on the popcorn.  So
>> >> there.
>> 
>> >We get free popcorn *and* a percentage of the box office.
>> 
>> Yeah, but you have to *pay* for the extra butter.  Besides, your
>> percentage of the box office is only *after* we've taken our cut off
>> the top.

>Dream on.  Our popcorn (with all garnishes) is totally free, as is the
>beluga cavier and Dom Perignon available in the private boxes.

Well, if you happen to like your box of popcorn with beluga caviar and
drenched in Dom Perignon, no wonder you keep it private. But I'll
settle for the non-soggy, non-fishy popcorn, thank you very much.
Chacun a son gout, as they say.  

But east is still east ... and west is still best.

hro

=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sun Jul 28 12:40:55 PDT 1996
Article: 53957 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer's Wannsee-bubbles burst by the report of a Sonderkommando
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 06:20:50 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 41
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4tf127$nui@atlas.uniserve.com>
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <4tenlb$b2t@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
wrote:

>In article <4t7sqp$nf8@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>,
>abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels) writes:

[...]
>>   The quoted report was written in the second half of 1942. It
>>has to be seen escpecially in the context of the Wannsee-Konferenz
>>because it illustrates the real meaning of the "evacuations" to
>>the east.
>>
>>

>This is excellent!  Moreover, it confirms what I posted about Minsk the
>other day. 

That's very nice Ehrlich, but I don't suppose you'd care to tell us
what it was you "posted about Minsk the other day."  A "Subject
Line/Topic and message ID would be a very helpful start.  And  a quote
or summary of the relevant comments would be even better.  It might
also help if you could tell us which part of the quoted report - which
you deleted from your response to Mr. Abel's post - you believe
confirms whatever it was you posted.  Or is debate by shorthand and/or
mindreading just a natural by-product of exercising one's "freedom to
speculate"?

I suppose you will get to this right after you send Mr. McCarthy and
Mr. McFee a copy of the outgassing graph you claim to have in your
possession - or perhaps after you deign to answer some of the many
questions you've left dangling in so many other threads.

posted/e-mailed

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sun Jul 28 16:30:38 PDT 1996
Article: 54003 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news.bright.net!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Declaration Of Deficiency
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 20:16:55 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 37
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4tgi1s$sd6@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <31fb9510.8733349@news.pacificnet.net>
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <31fb9510.8733349@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran aka the denier in search of a persona) wrote:

>		
>	They who refuse to debate, oppose debate or stifle debate,
>declare they don't have the will, the substance or the guts to meet
>the challenge. It is a sign of cowardice.
>	It is tacit declaration they know they would lose, that they
>don't have faith in their position, that they know deep down inside or
>are consciously aware their own position sucks. 

Hmmm ... sounds like Moran has provided a very perceptive description
of Ernst "Flying Saucers 'R Us" Zundel.

Very rare for him to be so insightful though.  I think the last time I
saw any insight from Moran  was when he acknowledged that he "must be
offering up thoroughly ridiculous questions and responses."  

I guess these little bursts of honesty must set your rigii back a byte
or two, eh, Li'l Tommy?

For a brief sample of Moran in his , please
point your web browser to:

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/m/moran-tom/

For a more in-depth study, you could try:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Mon Jul 29 14:06:55 PDT 1996
Article: 54037 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The THE himself
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 20:16:54 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 64
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4tgi1r$sd6@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4tejfq$m4f@news.enter.net> <4tfmgq$lg8@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0124.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <4tfmgq$lg8@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
wrote:

[text reformatted for ease of reading. hro]

>In article <4tejfq$m4f@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken)
>writes:

>>
>>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>>
>>  
>>>  	Until you to that, it stands as a MIRACLE.  
>>
>>	Hardly.  It stands as a statement of what might or might not have 
>>happened.  While it may be attacked as being medically improbable, I will
>>wait for someone with credentials to tell me that.  You hardly qualify as your
>>medical opinions heretofore posted here are so questionable (you failed to
>>recognize, for example, that the mechanism for death when air is injected into
>> the heart is a process of thrombosis resulting in a pulmonary embolism) as to be
>>non-existant.
>>
>>	But perhaps you would care to comment on this case:  a man shoots 
>>himself in the mouth with a .38 special revolver five times.  Two of the
>>bullets pass through his cranium (i.e. his braincase -- you can look it up in "Grey's"
>>Anatomy).  He lives for approximately 10 hours and is conscious part of the time.
>>
>>	Is that so incredible that it should not be believed, Mr. Giwer? 
>>Will you call that a MIRACLE and state that it did not happen?
>>
>>

>I think you are on better ground suggesting that Mr. Peer's memory is
>faulty and letting it go at that.  To argue that it would be possible for
>an individual to survive several gassings is not a very good idea.  For
>one thing, it fails to address the issue of why he would have been allowed
>to survive the gassings.  In other words, you not only have the miracle of
>surviving the gassing, but you also have the miracle of the SS allowing
>him to survive the gassing, not once, but six times.

I think you are on better ground recognizing that you have made a
serious error in judgement which you exacerbate with each troll-post
you attempt to bolster with your spurious pontifications.  For one
thing there are already several threads you have left dangling with
issues you have failed to address.  In other words, you not only have
your earlier cobblings to account for but also have yet to demonstrate
your "impressive intellect and knowledge" allowing you jump on your
high horse and run away from your words, not once, but countless
times.

>This is not to say that I do not enjoy all of the medical Ripley stuff you
>are posting.

This is not to say that I do not enjoy all of the sounds of silence
you are posting when you are not busy cobbling and waffling.

hro

=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Mon Jul 29 14:06:56 PDT 1996
Article: 54064 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!usc!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust final exam
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 20:16:53 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 29
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4tgi1q$sd6@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <31fb93ad.8378259@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0124.tvs.net

In <31fb93ad.8378259@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran aka the denier in search of a persona) wrote:


>Question:

[recyled drivel snipped]

	The reason Tom Moran keeps posting this inane drivel is:

A)	To prove that he's an ignorant, anti-Semitic liar

B)	To demonstrate that he knows how to cut and paste

C)	To attract the attention of witless hate-filled societal
misfits just like him

D)	He doesn't know how to put his brain in gear before he engages
his keyboard

E)	All of the above

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Tue Jul 30 07:34:28 PDT 1996
Article: 54288 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel
Subject: Re: Code words
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 19:53:25 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 55
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4tj51h$6fo@atlas.uniserve.com>
References:  <31fce194.1745516@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0227.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:54288 alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2157

In <31fce194.1745516@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran aka the denier in search of a persona) wrote:

>jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>>Lenski, Robert.  _The Holocaust on Trial: the Case of Ernst Zundel_.
>>Reporter Press, Decatur, Alabama, 1989.
>>
>>Joseph Burg, an acquaintance of Zuendel's, is on the stand.  He is
>>present "to help show Zundel's 'state of mind' at the time he
>>published the Harwood pamphlet," circa 1980.  p. 237:
>>
>>   Burg stated that he and Zundel had often discussed Germany's vast
>>   reparations to Israel and Jewry and the effect which Holocaust
>>   propaganda was having on German-Jewish relations.  The situation
>>   would continue "for another few generations," he had predicted.  Burg
>>   was pleased about teaching Zundel to say "Zionist" rather than "Jew."

[sig snipped]

>	"ANTI-ZIONISM IS ANTI-SEMITISM". Is that right Jamie? 

Caps lock on your keyboard stuck again, Tommy?!  Anyway, perhaps the
following will answer your question:

     "The anti-semite rejoices at any opportunity to vent his malice.
The times have made it unpopular, in the West, to proclaim openly a
hatred of the Jews. 

     This being the case, the anti-semite must constantly seek new
forms and forums for his poison. How he must revel in the new
masquerade. He does not hate Jews, he is just 'anti-Zionist'."
[Dr. Martin Luther King, letter to a friend, 1967]

To which I would add:  

30 years later it would appear that the anti-Semite's new form is
Holocaust denial - and his forum the Internet.  30 years later, he
wraps his keyboard in the flag of freedom of speech and it would seem
that the times are making it more popular - if not an imperative - to
tolerate open hatred of the Jews - or of any other
group.

Posted/e-mailed to Mr. McCarthy  [but not to Moran who doesn't seem to
appreciate such courtesies]

hro


=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Tue Jul 30 07:34:29 PDT 1996
Article: 54291 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McFlea
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 19:53:14 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 28
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4tj516$6fo@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4t25lq$gs4@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4t2mpv$gd@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4tadum$4bja@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4thidu$k1k@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> <29JUL199606250989@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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In <29JUL199606250989@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>,
dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <4thidu$k1k@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il>, schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz) writes...
>>Danny Mittleman (dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu) wrote:
>>: In article <4tadum$4bja@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net writes...
>> 
>>:: Next he'll be calling me fatbroad.
>> 
>>: When Michael Keaton posted here, Giwer called him a batfraud.
>> 
>>.. . . and when someone plugged his modem in at a fraternity house, he
>>called it fratbaud. . .

>    And when Giwer went to Saudi Arabia and offered the king a sausage, he
>    said, "brat, Faud?"

And when Giwer watches his Mickey Mouse cartoons on Saturday mornings,
he cries "Look at that that ratfraud."

hro

=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Tue Jul 30 09:08:09 PDT 1996
Article: 54356 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!overload.lbl.gov!agate!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 19:53:19 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 36
Distribution: world
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2173 alt.revisionism:54356

In <31fcdb11.78487@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran
the denier in search of a persona) wrote:

(newsgroups trimmed)

[...]

> 'A successful fighting force is a cohesive one, one where all members
>have respect for each other's diversity and dignity. Holocaust
>revisionism has the potential to destroy that respect.'"
>                      ====================

>	This is an ideal example of "chutzpa".

Yes - an example of chutzpah, as practiced by Tom Moran!  However it
is also an example of his failure to develop the reading comprehension
skills of a ten-year old - as the following "interpretation" of the
above quote demonstrates:

>	Claiming that the morale of the U.S. fighting force is contingent
>on it's attitude on the Holocaust. Only idiots would put it forth,
>only idiots would accept it.

Since no one has made this claim except Moran, it would seem that he
acknowledging that he is an idiot.  Hey, folks, maybe this poster is
making progress after all!

[balance of moranic diatribe deleted]

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Tue Jul 30 20:36:22 PDT 1996
Article: 54462 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.clinton,soc.culture.russia,soc.culture.russian,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,talk.politics.guns,alt.sex,alt.christnet,alt.censorship,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.reform,alt.politics.orgs.nsa,talk.abortion
Subject: Re: Republicans Destroy Republicans
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 20:04:40 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 46
Distribution: world
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In , chrisl@minn.net (Chris
Lyman) wrote:

>an572010@anon.penet.fi wrote:

>[--a lot of kookiness deleted--]

># A famous case is when illegal aliens were used to win the
># election of Lyndon Johnson to the presidency, with all
># investigations into the organised crime quashed.

>Lyndon Johnson won by one of the biggest landslides in U.S.
>history.  Are you trying to say that some Evil Conspiracy
>managed to find something like 30 million illegal aliens,
>get them registered to vote, have them vote for Johnson
>and then shut up about it?

>Were they promised rides on the black helicopters or what?

Actually Chris, if you check the "Official ZOGistory of the World
Encylopedia," in Chapter XI - "Vote Fixing," you will see that the
"black helicopter ride" gambit was long ago rejected (too many voters
seemed to have a fear of flying).  We found a far more effective
strategy was the simple expedient of giving out vouchers for
prestigious  (in those days we didn't have to engage in rampant
commercialism) ZOGger-T's.  It was actually a 2-step process: one
voucher to register and the second on exit from the voting booth (our
agents monitored voting via hidden cameras so we could easily weed out
the cheaters).  Then all they had to do was mail-in the vouchers and
we sent the ZOGger-T by return post.

Of course, after we perfected the techniques of TSA (targetted
subliminal advertising) this strategy became superfluous.  The
remaining stock of ZOGger-T's sat in warehouses for many years.  But,
now that we're into recycling, we've dusted them off.  Check in
alt.revisionism for an exciting offer from ZOG-Canada Marketing, btw.
I know you won't want to miss out on this one!

hro

=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Wed Jul 31 13:58:31 PDT 1996
Article: 54504 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Tell it to Teuffel Piet, l'il tommy
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 20:04:37 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 24
Distribution: world
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In <31fe1d68.418583@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran
the denier in search of a persona) wrote:

>yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

[...]

>	When Moran calls someone a coward and a liar, he presents the
>evidence.  Poor Mr.Edeiken. Too bad he can't do the same.

Poor Li'l Tommy, he just doesn't get it!

>>	That's why Nizkor believes in free speech. l'il tommy.  Every time you 
>>open your bigoted, lying mouth you make converts.  For the other side.
>>
>>	--YFE

QED
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Wed Jul 31 13:58:32 PDT 1996
Article: 54505 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hilary is full of it
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 20:04:46 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
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In <4tkqgf$d0h@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>Not all revisionists are racists, much as you would like the web-browsers to think so, Hilary.

Mr/Ms. Blackmore:

Perhaps, since you choose not to observe customary USENET courtesies
and conventions, you would care to elaborate on this comment.  You
could start by giving some indication of what I might have said - and
where - that has led you to this particular erroneous conclusion.

Posted/e-mailed

hro

=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Wed Jul 31 13:58:33 PDT 1996
Article: 54609 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.fibr.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 08:38:40 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 94
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4tn6c1$610@atlas.uniserve.com>
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <4tme20$d3e@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
wrote:

>In article <4tk3d5$ha7@access5.digex.net>, mstein@access5.digex.net
>(Michael P. Stein) writes:

[...]

>>>And now, when
>>>>presented with evidence that Zyklon B _did_ rapidly evolve much, if not
>>>>most, of the HCN in about 10 minutes or so you suggest we "drop" the
>>>>discussion as we "we can't get specifics?"
>>>
>>>I said no such thing.  And you know that.
>>
>>    Pardon me?  Going back to your previous post in the thread, I find:
>>
>>"My attitude on this is since we can't get specifics we should really
>drop
>>it.  Neither the 37% hypothesis nor the Peters' comment are mutually
>>exclusive in the sense that nobody at this point in time is arguing for
>>complete outgassing in 10 minutes or even in one half hour."
>>
>>    I did not realize that amnesia was contagious, especially over the
>>Internet.  Yet here you are developing Giwer's Amnesia about what you
>>yourself said only a little while ago. 
>>
>>

>OK, what was going on here, Mike, was very simple.  I made the argument
>that we should drop the discussion of ZB outgassing because it has no
>bearing on its lethality in the ten minute range.  I then summarized --
>immediately after making the above statement -- why I thought that was so.

>Let's get the specifics.  I don't have a problem with that.  However, Mark
>wanted to mix it up, so now I get to go over this material with him, and

Gee, this has _such_ a familiar ring to it!  When Ehrlich moves from
 to  he always throws a curve ball.  The
spin is invariably - and unmistakeably - [tm]

>learn something into the bargain.  Some people, when they attack, I will
>let it go.  Nothing to learn from them. But generally arguments with Mark
>are fruitful, because he knows his stuff pretty well.  You just have to be
>careful with what he says, and ignore the invective.

No need to be careful with anything Mark says.   Mark has his books at
hand, as opposed to Ehrlich whose books are always "in the attic."
Hmmm ... perhaps that's why he doesn't get the titles right sometimes.


Unlike Ehrlich, if Mark makes an assertion, he cites a source.
Although, to be fair, sometimes Ehrlich does cite a source too,  But
if one checks Mark's sources, one will _not_ find that the quoting has
been selectively and dishonestly edited.  However, if one checks
Ehrlich's citations one often finds that he _has_ engaged in selective
and dishonest editing.

I doubt that any reasonable person would find "invective" in Mark 's
post.  Calling a hypocrite a hypocrite is _not_ invective.  It is
simply a statement of fact.  And Ehrlich has proven himself to be a
hypocrite.

>BTW, I don't mean by that that I don't learn something in disputes with
>you, but you don't hyperventilate as much as MVA. :)

If Ehrlich has learned anything from the non-deniers posting to this
newsgroup, he has yet to demonstrate it.  OTOH, the lessons he has
learned from his good friend, the Giwer-troll, have been _very_ much
in evidence.  

Oh, and speaking of "invective," I can't help wondering why he falsely
accuses Mark of "hyperventilating" (perhaps Moran helped him with that
one?!). All Mark has done is demonstrate Ehrlich's lack of "impressive
intellect and knowledge"  (not to mention Ehrlich's transparent
downhill-slide in the intellectual honesty department).

Wonder what Ehrlich will do next?!  Distract from the 
by cobbling another thread?  A few more rounds of the "Sounds of
Silence" perhaps?  Back to his ghost-writing as, wounded to the quick,
he jumps on his high horse,  and rides off into the land of the
lurkers - again?! 

Or will he acknowledge his errors, apologize to Mark, and retract his
statements (what a novel concept that must be to him!)?

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/




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