The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/nyms/gary/1996/gary.0896


From patchwgl@infinop.com Fri Aug  9 08:43:16 PDT 1996
Article: 55992 of alt.revisionism
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From: patchwgl@infinop.com (Gary)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Himmler's report to Hitler (2nd Posting)
Date: 8 Aug 1996 15:37:28 GMT
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Below is "transliterated" as exactly as possible a photocopy of 
Bunesarchiv, Koblenz document #NS 19/291, a report from the 
Reichsfuehrer-SS (Himmler) to Hitler.  Limitations of this medium 
requires the "americanization" of certain letters, but the text is, 
letter for letter, as faithful to the photocopy as possible.  This was 
typed on a special "Fuehrer-typewriter", a typewriter with large type. 

Attention is directed to entry 2c, "Juden exekutiert".

---------

                   (-NO 3392-
                   (-NO 511-)[1]
                                                [2] 31/12 [3]
Der Reichsfuehrer-SS                            Feld-Kommandostelle'
                                                den 29 Dezember 1942

Retr.[4]:  Weldungen an den Fuehrer ueber
           Bendenbekaempfung.                                [5]

           W e l d u n g Wr. 51
           --------------------
           Russland-Sued, Ukraine, Bialystok.
           ----------------------------------
           Bandenbakaempfungserfolge vom1.9. bis 1.12.1942
           -----------------------------------------------

1.) Banditen:
   ---------
   a) festgestellte Tote nach Gefechten (x)
        August:    September:   Oktober:    November:   insgesamt:
        -------    ----------   --------    ---------   ----------
         227         381         427          302         1337
   b) Gefangene sofort exekuitiert
         125         282          87          243          737
   c) Gefange nach laengerer eingehender Vernehmung
      exekutiert
        2100        1400        1596         2731         7828

2.) Bandenhelfer und Bandenverdaechtige:
   ------------------------------------
   a)  festgenommen
        1343        3078        8337         3795        16553
   b)  exekutiert
        1198        3020        6333         3706        14257
   c)  Juden exekutiert
       31246      165282       95735        70948       363211

3.) Ueberlaeufer a.G. deutscher Propaganda:
    ---------------------------------------
          21          14          42           63          140
(x) Da der Russe seine Gefallenen verschleppt
    bzw.sofort verscharrt, sind die Verlustzahlen
    auch nach Gefangenenaussagen erhablich hoeher
    zu bewerten.
                                                [6]
                                                Bundesarchiv 318 [7]
                                                NS 19/291 [8]
                                                                V.69[9]


[1] Handwritten
[2] Handwritten, illegible in my photocopy, see [3]
[3] "31/12" handwritten date 31 Dec., followed by handwriting 
illegible in my photocopy.  Analysis indicates [2] and [3] are 
handwritten 
acknowledgement that the report was submitted to Hitler on 31 Dec, 1942 
in the handwriting of his adjutant Pfeiffer.
[4] First letter illegible in photocopy.
[5] Handwriting, illegible.
[6] Illegible, first part of Bundesarchiv stamp.
[7] "318" stamped, different stamping, clarity from the Bundesarchiv 
stamp.
[8] Handwritten, Bundesarchiv reference number
[9] Handwritten

---------------

A partial translation, as posted by Danny Keren:

----------------------------------------------------------------
                              August  September  October  November   

Prisoners executed
after interrogation            2,100    1,400     1,596     2,731    
 .
 .
Accomplices of guerrilla and
guerrilla suspects executed    1,198    3,020     6,333     3,706    
 .
 .
Jews executed                 31,246   165,282    95,735   70,948
 .
 .
Villages and localities
Burned down or destroyed        35       12         20       92


-----------------

This report, from Himmler to Hitler, is important in several ways:

1.  It indicates clearly that Himmler knew of mass executions of Jews, 
    as Jews.

2.  It indicates clearly that Hitler knew of mass executions of Jews, 
    as Jews.

3.  It shows that Hitler was being kept abreast of such executions.  It 
    therefore suggests that it was his wish to be kept informed of them.

4.  It differentiates between those executed for criminal or other 
    activities, and those executed simply for being Jewish.

5.  It shows a disproportionate number of Jews having been killed 
    during the time frame indicated, vs. those executed for criminal or 
    guerrilla activities.

All mainstream historians view this document as genuine.  It was 
produced on a special large-print typewriter used specifically for 
documents that were to be sent to Hitler, and bears the writing of 
Hitler's adjutant, Pfeiffer, indicating that it had been submitted to 
Hitler.

This document causes considerable problems for the deniers, for all of 
the above reasons.  It is generally accepted as genuine, as, indeed, 
there is little reason to _question_ its authenticity unless one is a 
denier. They are in the unhappy (for them) position of attempting to 
prove otherwise.




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From patchwgl@infinop.com Sat Aug 10 09:52:51 PDT 1996
Article: 56268 of alt.revisionism
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From: patchwgl@infinop.com (Gary)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Riverwatching
Date: 2 Aug 1996 15:11:36 GMT
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On 8/1/96 at 19:54, Keith Morrison  wrote: 

>the width of the Amazon.  Assuming the Amazon to be 90 meters deep and
>the Vistula, say, 15 meters means that its cross section is .0003125
>the size of the Amazon's.  Given the same water speed, the Vistula will
>therefore carry .0003125 times the water volume.  Assuming the same
>sediment carrying capacity, in twenty-four hours the Polish river will
>move (.0003125*3000000) 937 tonnes of sediment.  For convenience, we'll
>round this off to 900 tonnes/day past an arbitray point.  This means
>that in two years (730 days), 657 000 tonnes of sediment can be moved
>past this arbitrary point.  Given an average person massing 70 kilos,
>this represents the equivalent of 9 390 000 bodies.

Good work, Keith, but for one thing:  the ash of an avg. human is 
approx. 1-2 kg, not 70 kg.

FYI, a denier in another forum of debate stated, in March 1992 that the 
total ash production from Auschwitz would have been 800 m^3, if 
non-denier death estimates were correct.  Try plugging these figures 
in; you may manage to reduce Giwer to incoherence.

Did I say "incoherence?"  I meant silence...

The first happened long ago.

Gary aka Termy


Sent with an evaluation copy of Cindy's Newsmailer v1.1.


From patchwgl@infinop.com Sat Aug 10 19:39:57 PDT 1996
Article: 56381 of alt.revisionism
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From: patchwgl@infinop.com (Gary)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ashholes was Re: "Ash Gets In Your Eyes" - Giwer's New Theme Song
Date: 10 Aug 1996 16:19:08 GMT
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On 8/9/96 at 10:18, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote: 

[snip]
>
>Fact: Around 1989, leading historians of the Holocaust revised downward
>their totals for Auschwitz Birkenau.  Fact:  Around 1990, the Polish
>government reduced the claimed death toll for AB from 4 million to about 1
>million.  Fact:  The source of the 4 million number is clearly USSR-8, the
>Soviet Special Commission on Auschwitz, which based its totals on totally
>arbitrary cremation statistics for the camp.  Fact: This document was
>given judicial notice at Nuremberg.
>
>It seems obvious to me that the 4 million number was cooked in the first
>place.  Since the cooking was done by the Soviet Union, the same source,
>by the way, of a forged ID card for John Demjanjuk, it follows that there
>has indeed been deception on some matters concerning the Holocaust.


Hilberg & Reitlinger (to mention two) never accepted the 4 million 
figure.  Hilberg's figures have been posted several times before.  Need 
I post them again, or will you "give judicial notice" of them, and 
agree that your statement was in error?

Gary


----------


From patchwgl@infinop.com Wed Aug 14 20:43:05 PDT 1996
Article: 57381 of alt.revisionism
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From: patchwgl@infinop.com (Gary)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Deniers:  playing with numbers or playing with themselves?
Date: 14 Aug 1996 22:50:13 GMT
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On 8/10/96 at 16:19, patchwgl@infinop.com (Gary) wrote: 

>On 8/9/96 at 10:18, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote: 
>
>[snip]
>>
>>Fact: Around 1989, leading historians of the Holocaust revised downward
>>their totals for Auschwitz Birkenau.  Fact:  Around 1990, the Polish
>>government reduced the claimed death toll for AB from 4 million to about 1
>>million.  Fact:  The source of the 4 million number is clearly USSR-8, the
>>Soviet Special Commission on Auschwitz, which based its totals on totally
>>arbitrary cremation statistics for the camp.  Fact: This document was
>>given judicial notice at Nuremberg.

Leading Holocaust historians have disputed the 4 million figure almost 
>from  the outset.  Perhaps that's one reason they're the leading 
historians.

Again, your statement is at variance with Hilberg & Reitlinger, who 
are, after all, the leading Holocaust historians.

>>
>>It seems obvious to me that the 4 million number was cooked in the first
>>place.  Since the cooking was done by the Soviet Union, the same source,
>>by the way, of a forged ID card for John Demjanjuk, it follows that there
>>has indeed been deception on some matters concerning the Holocaust.
>
>
>Hilberg & Reitlinger (to mention two) never accepted the 4 million 
>figure.  Hilberg's figures have been posted several times before.  Need 
>I post them again, or will you "give judicial notice" of them, and 
>agree that your statement was in error?

It should also be noted that, while many others have stated 4 million 
or zero, Hilberg & Reitlinger remain the foremost authorities on 
Holocaust, and when their figures collide with the figures of others, 
it should be the others whose figures be held suspect, not those of 
Messrs Hilberg & Reitlinger.


Perhaps repetition of the truth will work where simple explanation does 
not.



----------


From patchwgl@infinop.com Wed Aug 14 20:43:06 PDT 1996
Article: 57382 of alt.revisionism
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From: patchwgl@infinop.com (Gary)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Giwer's foot-munching revealed
Date: 14 Aug 1996 22:50:41 GMT
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On Fri. August 09, 1996, Matt Giwer wrote:

> Tell it to the idiots are who claiming it floats.  Then get back to
>me.  

> You have just shot down your fellow holohuggers and do not know.  

> What an asshole.

Stop preening before the mirror.

Reality check:

I wrote:  

>>>some of the contents into a sinkful of water.  It is readily apparent 
>>>that the activated charcoal (which is made by burning cattle bones)  is 
>>>approx. 1 cm sieve crush, frequently floats (DUE TO SURFACE TENSION), 
>>>and is easily moved about by even gentle currents.  [emphasis mine]

Helluva background in physics you have, when you donÕt even know what 
surface tension is.

Giwer further blathered:

> Whatever the source of activated charcoal, and I sincerely doubt you
>have the source correct due to the lack of carbon in bones,

Really?  Gee Beav, perhaps youÕd better advise the medical community, 
as the 
current state of medical science believes otherwise.

As I stated, you need only take a trip by the pet supplies section in a 
dept. store.

Please donÕt, however:  youÕre so much more entertaining when youÕre 
posting in total ignorance.

Gary


----------


From patchwgl@infinop.com Wed Aug 14 20:43:07 PDT 1996
Article: 57383 of alt.revisionism
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From: patchwgl@infinop.com (Gary)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Giwer:  skewered by his own petard.
Date: 14 Aug 1996 22:52:10 GMT
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On 8/11/96 at 19:52, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote: 

>In message <4uet10$bqv@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> - mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt
> Giwer)Fri, 09 Aug 1996 08:29:30 GMT writes:
>:>
>:>>In writing the above, and in proof-reading it, and now in re-reading 
>:>>it, I recall no mention of Bic lighters.  Please point out where I 
>:>>mention them. 
>:>
>:>      You would be advised to read the conference before you jump in.  I
>:>have posted genuine eyewitness testimony as to the existance of a
>:>special Nazi method of burning bodies without fuel.  Would you prefer
>:>a kitchen match instead?  

Why are you posting eyewitness testimony?  I thought you didn't accept 
it as valid.  Your rules, Giwer:  if it's eyewitness, it's not 
credible.  That stands true for any that you might wish to use as well 
as any that I may wish to introduce. 

It should be noted that I don't have much eyewitness testimony 
available, and very rarely, if ever, use it.  I'll play the game by 
your rules Giwer.  I only insist that you do, too.  

To rephrase:  if any eyewitness testimony that I bring forth is 
automatically discredited in your eyes by virtue of its origin, then I 
insist the same hold true for you.

You're hoist upon your own petard, Giwer.  Don't spout eyewitness 
testimony at me & I won't spout it at you.  Your rules, Giwer.  Are you 
_really_ willing to change them?

 Try again, Giwer, your argument was refuted several years ago, 
and your reiteration of it only serves to show the lack of ethics 
associated with you and your whole denier ilk.  Hint:  Raven's debate 
on GEnie.

The denier habit of "Well, we got shot down here, let's go over there 
and use the same arguments.  Maybe they'll work there." is getting 
mighty tiresome.

>
>I believe the question was where Gary had mentioned BIC lighters, as the
>Cowardly Lyin' had implied.  Note that there is no answer to the question,
>since the Cowardly Lyin' has been caught in yet another lie.

Giwer's stuck & therefore grasping at straws.

>
>:>      You newcomers are advised to read a few months of history before you
>:>jump in. 

I've nearly a hundred texts on Holocaust, from Arno Mayer to Leni 
Yahil, including some of Irving's texts.  And, with exception to the 
last 3 or 4 purchased, I've read them all at least once.

I suggest you get a life and stop spewing semen on your computer 
screen, little man.  

Now that we've insulted one another, can we get back to a serious 
discussion, or shall I show, again, that your abilities in this regard 
are limited in the extreme? 

>
>Great try.  Too bad the Cowardly Lyin' didn't heed his own advice.
>
>:>        
>:>>>        But do not give up, there are two or three major claimants that
>:>>>exactly that is possible in the holohugger camp.  
>:>>>
>:>>>        Maybe they will come forward and make their case just in 
the nick of
>:>>>time to make you look like less of an idiot.  
>:>
>:>>Were I an idiot, 
>:>
>:>      I was not aware that was in question.  
>
>There is indeed no question that the Cowardly Lyin' is an idiot.
>
>[deleted]

Giwer seems to have been guilty of a bit of selective editing.  
Naughty, naughty Giwer.  I'd suggest that the maiden Newt and her twin 
sister spank you, but, frankly, can't see them stooping _that_ low, no 
matter how desperate they may be.  The entirety of my statement was:

[begin quote]
Were I an idiot, I would need only to point to you for comparison.  
After such comparison was made, I could easily obtain a scholastic 
scholarship to the university of my choice, as it seems the difference 
between your mental ability and brain-death is as great as the interval 
between infinity & infinity + 1.

Now that we've insulted one another, perhaps you can direct your 
attention to the grist of my post...and answer it in a civil fashion.
[end quote]

>
>--
>Gord McFee
>I'll write no line before its time
>


Thanks, Gord, for reposting the above.  My ISP's news server has been 
having problems, frying hard drives left and right & I've only been 
able to get about 1/5th of the daily messages, when I can access 
alt.revisionism at all. 

I.e., I'm not ignoring the replies to my posts.  It's simply impossible 
to respond to messages that are never received.

Gary


----------


From patchwgl@infinop.com Wed Aug 14 20:43:07 PDT 1996
Article: 57387 of alt.revisionism
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From: patchwgl@infinop.com (Gary)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Mamzer Giwer
Date: 14 Aug 1996 23:05:37 GMT
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>In message <4uet10$bqv@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> - mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt
> Giwer)Fri, 09 Aug 1996 08:29:30 GMT writes:
>:>
>:>>In writing the above, and in proof-reading it, and now in re-reading 
>:>>it, I recall no mention of Bic lighters.  Please point out where I 
>:>>mention them. 
>:>
>:>      You would be advised to read the conference before you jump in.  I
>:>have posted genuine eyewitness testimony as to the existance of a
>:>special Nazi method of burning bodies without fuel.  Would you prefer
>:>a kitchen match instead?  
>

Gord McFee replied:

>I believe the question was where Gary had mentioned BIC lighters, as the
>Cowardly Lyin' had implied.  Note that there is no answer to the question,
>since the Cowardly Lyin' has been caught in yet another lie.
>

That was the overt issue.  The hidden issue regards the use of 
eyewitness testimony.  Matt, like most deniers, discounts eyewitness 
accounts.  Fine.  I'll discount them, too.  Don't need 'em, don't use 
'em, never paid too much attention to 'em.

So...whenever Matt resorts to eyewitness testimony to advance his case, 
I'm going to remind him, however subtlely, of his own rules of 
engagement.

I.e., if any eyewitness accounts that help my case are discounted, then 
_all_ eyewitness accounts are equally suspect.

Let them define the rules and the playing field, _then_ kick their 
asses.  Works for me...  

>      You newcomers are advised to read a few months of history before you
>jump in.

Ask Greg Raven about Pooh.Bah & Termy, mamzer und schnorror.

Gary aka Termy


----------


From patchwgl@infinop.com Thu Aug 15 07:49:42 PDT 1996
Article: 57434 of alt.revisionism
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From: patchwgl@infinop.com (Gary)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Wir scheissen auf die Freiheit der Judenrepublik
Date: 15 Aug 1996 04:25:33 GMT
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On 8/13/96 at 15:32, rich@c2.org (Rich Graves) wrote: 

>mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) writes:
>>Greg Raven  wrote:
>>
>>made that suggest the future. It appears that with the extermination
>>of 90% of the Jews in Poland that some oder was given and some order
>>was carried out. Historians have really moved past this issue for they
>>are now dealing with the how and why. They are dealing with the
>>obvious loss of human beings. I find it telling that your only concern
>>is with the Jews. What of the other 6 million?

Please, Greg, mention the other 6 million.  Mention them loudly, and 
often.  Why?  They died, too, victims of the viciousness of a group of 
madmen who were collectively entranced by themselves and their equally 
mad leader, Hitler.

Mention the Sinti, the Romany, the Jehovah's Witnesses, homosexuals and 
mentally impaired.

Speak of them often.  

Don't forget them, Greg.

I shall remind you of them, if you don't mention them, frequently.

Why?  Because _you_ seem willing to discount their deaths in your 
attempts to "prove" there was no Jewish Holocaust.  Why?  Is your 
hatred of Israel and all things Jewish so deep that you're willing to 
figuratively spit on the graves of, not only the Jewish dead, but all 
the other innocents who died in Holocaust?

Is it, Greg?

What a sad, sad testimony you bear.

>
>As you both know, the IHR was founded, and Mr. Raven was hired, by a man
>with a special interest in Jews. Willis something, I believe -- Carto, was
>it? Isn't there something about him on Nizkor?

If not Nizkor, then you should be able to find something about him at 
www.wiesenthal.com

>
>>>I would suggest that you read, "The Dissolution of Eastern European
>>>Jewry," by Walter N. Sanning. Although there are many population studies
>>>of this period dealing with the Jews, this is one of the best, and
>>>clearly shows that, as Dr. Arthur Butz has said, the best argument
>>>against an alleged Nazi extermination policy of the Jews is that the
>>>Jews were still alive after the war.
>>
>>What's the publication data on the Sanning stuff? Where can it be
>>found. I'm terible with libraries. I tend to take things back late, so
>>I try to own copies of the stuff I need.
>
>It's not exactly what you'd call a well-known academic study. As far as I
>can determine, no accredited university library in the western world
>carries the work. A rare find indeed. Note the foreword and publisher.
>
>  Author:        Sanning, Walter N., 1935-
>  Title:         The dissolution of Eastern European Jewry / Walter N.
>                    Sanning ; foreword by Arthur R. Butz.
>  Published:     Torrance, Calif. : Institute for Historical Review,
>                    1983.
>  Description:   239 p. : ill. ; 23 cm.
>  LC Call No.:   DS135.E83 S33 1983
>  Dewey No.:     947/.0004924 19
>  ISBN:          0939484110 (pbk.) : $7.00
>                 0939484064 (hard) : $12.00
>  Notes:         Bibliography: p. 207-211.
>                 Includes index.
>  Subjects:      Jews -- Europe, Eastern -- History.
>                 Europe, Eastern -- Ethnic relations.
>  Control No.:   83081042 //r842
>
>As far as I can determine, this book has never been reviewed by anyone.

It was, to an extent.  See my quotes, below (courtesy of Greg Raven).
>
>>Who is Sanning? 
>
>No idea. According to the Library of Congress, the above is the only
>publication ever issued by that nym.
>
>As far as I can determine, no Walter Sanning has ever published an article
>in any magazine or journal on record. This includes The Spotlight, which
>has been indexed since 1987.
>
>In fact, the only article in any periodical or journal credited to anyone
>with last name "Sanning" is the following:
>
> AUTHOR(s):        Sanning, D.E. 
>                   Lewis, N.M. 
> TITLE(s):         1990 Update of the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency's
>                   SITE Emerging Technology Program.                          
> Summary:          Discusses and supports the development of technologies
>                   successfully tested at the bench-scale level. Provides
>                   an understanding of program operation and application.
> 
>            In:    Journal of the Air & Waste Management Association
>                   DEC 01 1990 v 40 n 12 
>          Page:    1706
>
>"Sanning" does not appear as the subject or keyword for any record in any
>available database.

To quote Greg from his GEnie days:

[c 1992 GEnie]
Category 15,  Topic 9
Message 838       Fri Apr 10, 1992
G.RAVEN [Greg Raven]         at 01:54 EDT

[snip]

Let's look at the blurbs as they appear on the back of the Sanning 
book, shall we?
 
"...The danger of this book (and of those that will doubtlessly follow) 
is ITS CLEVER VENEER OF SCHOLARSHIP. The bibliography is international 
in scope and the text has the PANACHE OF OBJECTIVITY. It does not read 
like a shrill polemic but has all the SUPERFICIAL ATTRIBUTES OF A 
FACTUAL ANALYSIS. Not one in a thousand undergraduates could find fault 
with it; only a few more graduates would be competent to identify ITS 
FLAWS AND TO CONVINCINGLY QUESTION ITS CREDIBILITY. The ultimate danger 
lies in the lack of a serious response to this continuing wave of 
attacks on history itself."
 Professor Henry Huttenbach
 City College of New York
 in "Martyrdom and Resistance"
 ---
 "...a piece of sophisticated Holocaust denial...It will require the 
services of a competent demographer to expose MANY OF THE ERRORS in 
this work."
 Professor John S. Conway
 University of British Columbia
 in "The International History Review"
 ---
 "...this book makes a GREAT PARADE OF STATISTICS to show that whatever 
diminution in the population of the European Jews took place during 
World War II was only part of a long-term demographic 'dissolution' 
exacerbated by the rough treatment accorded Jews by the Soviet Union."
 Gordon Mork
 in "Shofar"

[all emphasis mine]
 ---

As can be seen from the blurbs on the book's cover, the publishers know 
of the flaws and errors in the book, and they seem to positively glory 
in these flaws.  The purpose of the book, according to its own cover, 
then, is _not_ to revise history correctly, but to revise it 
incorrectly.

Thanks, Greg, for bringing Sanner's book to my attention.

>
>>>> >Finally, people from all walks of live, of all religious faiths, and all
>>>> >racial backgrounds, agree with the revisionist view of the Holocaust.
>>>> 
>>>> To varying degrees. Most are like Moran and Giwer, however.
>>>
>>>The quality of anti-revisionists is certainly no higher.
>>
>>Actually, there are PHds in the group. Most ALL have finished college.
>>Quite a few actually speak German. I would rather there be less name
>>calling and more discussion. Some of these folks you know from the
>>past. Apparently you left many a dangling thread with unanswered
>>questions. I think that if the appraoch was toward true historical
>>revisionism then you might get more substantive responses. But when
>>people go to the web page and read the racial and antisemitic stuff,
>>then they get a picture that clowds a claim of honest historical
>>revisionism. Don't you think?
>
>Indubitably. It would certainly be a tragedy if people were to get the
>impression that the IHR is simply a front for racists and antisemites for
>whom Holocaust denial is an anti-Jewish propaganda exercise.

Again, in Greg's own words, from GEnie:

Category 15,  Topic 4
Message 24        Fri Mar 13, 1992
G.RAVEN                      at 00:42 EST
 
 To Gscott- (GSCOTT-MOORE, that is). It is important to study the 
Holocaust myth because  is the most powerful weapon in the arsenal of 
the ZIONISTS, who take every opportunity to use it against us, the 
Palestinians, etc. If it is a hoax, which it is, then most of the 
"moral underpinning" of the ILLEGAL AND IMMORAL STATE OF ISRAEL 
vanishes, and we can finally hope for peace in the Middle East.


It should be noted that the above was written over a year after the 
Gulf War...

Gary


----------


From patchwgl@infinop.com Thu Aug 15 07:49:43 PDT 1996
Article: 57442 of alt.revisionism
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From: patchwgl@infinop.com (Gary)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Keren, the latter day Einstein
Date: 15 Aug 1996 04:28:40 GMT
Organization: Internet Global Services, Inc.
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Message-ID: <4uu91o$6dm@news.iglobal.net>
References: <4umujo$94q@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>  <4us8g4$gfb@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
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On 8/14/96 at 10:04, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote: 

>On Mon, 12 Aug 1996 08:07:16 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com wrote:
>
>>In article <4umujo$94q@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>>(Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>
>>>         refuses to apply his great math talents explaining the eyewitness
>>> reports of death by HCN in 10-15 minutes and by CO in 15-20 minutes.
>>> 
>>>         Why does he refuse to do this?  
>> 
>>Probably because you're a lying troll and Dr. Keren has better things to
>>do with his time.
>
>        If he had better things to do with his time he would not be here.  
>
>
If hemoglobin's affinity for O2 is assigned a value of one (1), what is 
hemoglobin's affinity for CO, expressed in multiples of hemo/O2, or 
fractions thereof, as appropriate?



----------


From patchwgl@infinop.com Thu Aug 15 07:49:44 PDT 1996
Article: 57483 of alt.revisionism
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From: patchwgl@infinop.com (Gary)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Luther and the Jews Pt 3
Date: 14 Aug 1996 23:06:26 GMT
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On 8/5/96 at 17:56, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote: 

>In message <31ffa361.8636901@news> - pgroff@txdirect.net (pgroff)Wed, 31 Jul
>1996 18:20:23 GMT writes:

[snip]

>:>Rev, you are the sore loser, this isn't the esteemed Rev Ron Schodel,
>:>now is it??
>
>Esteemed?  :-)


Nah, esteamed...


----------


From patchwgl@infinop.com Thu Aug 15 13:37:09 PDT 1996
Article: 57514 of alt.revisionism
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From: patchwgl@infinop.com (Gary)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Leuchter?  Again?
Date: 14 Aug 1996 22:57:43 GMT
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On 8/11/96 at 17:13, anny@ix.netcom.com(Annie Alpert) wrote: 

>In <320D8A7C.6C7D@kaiwan.com> Greg Raven 
>writes: 
>>
>>If you don't agree that Leuchter has the expertise and competence to
>>evaluate claimed Nazi gas chambers, please supply the name of the person
>>you do find experienced and competent, along with the results of their
>>comprehensive and thorough examination of the alleged Nazi gas
>>chambers.
>
>Hi, Greg, nice to see you posting here again.  Are things getting slow at
>the IHR these days?  I do wish you would come up with some original
>material, though.  It's a bit tedious to wade through the same old-same
>old once again.

Damn, Greg showed up & my news server's screwy!  Hiya Greg!

>
>For instance, poor old Mr. Leuchter.  Don't you think he's been through
>enough?  He hardly helps your cause anymore.  I much prefer the  
>1945 toxicology study of the the Krakow Institute of
>  Judiciary Expertise.  You remeber?  They studied of 6 zinc grids
>  or "grills" which had been part of the L-Keller 1
>  ventilation system found in the ruins of Crematoria 2 by
>  the regional commission investigating German War crimes in
>  Krakow.  Two types of reagents were used on grid scraping
>  to qualitatively check for cyanide.  The first reagent
>  produced a bluish coloration, indicating that Prussian Blue
>  had been formed (a ferrocyanic compound).  The second
>  reagent produced an orange hue indicating that thiocynate
>  had been created by the reaction.  This combination
>  indicated the presence of hydrocyanic compounds.  That is
>  to say, large quantities of cyanide must be present for the
>  reaction to occur.  Three of these grills are kept in the
>  Auschwitz Museum reserve.
>
>    Compare this to Leuchter's 'scientific' study, which, ironically enough,
>supports the Krakow report in spite of it's many errors.  One
>monumental error on Leuchter's part is, of course, his "control" sample.
>A control sample is typically research material which represents a
>'naormal' condition.  Fred Leuchter's sample was taken from an INTACT
>de-lousing chamber #1 at Auschwitz II (Birkenau).  Remarkably, this
>sample tested at 1050 mg/kg. 
>   Normal scientific method would suggest that a scientist would
>take more than one"control sample" and not chose control samples
>from areas that differ from the rest of the samples.  He ignores,
>in the report, the fact that the delousing facility (his "control"
>sample) is intact and the gas chambers, because of their
>destruction, have been exposed for 43 years to the elements.
>   Yet, because the test results of his "control" differed so
>greatly from the samples from the gas chambers, he concludes: "One
>would have expected higher cyanide detection in the samples taken
>from the alleged gas chambers (because of the greater amount of gas
>allegedly utilized there) than that found in the control sample." 
>
>    Didn't Fred know that 0.3 g/m^3 of HCN is enough to kill a human
>instantly while it takes 5 g/m^3 for 2 hours to kill lice? In other words,
>the control sample comes forma place where MORE HCN is known to be
>used -- not LESS!  
>
>    Still the amazing thing is that ANY HCN was found at all after
>years of wind, rain and weather in the demolished Kremas! And, this
>evidence supports the Krakow institute findings perfectly!  Obviously,
>Leuchter's conclusions are not supported by his test results and, oddly
>enough, his test results actually prove that the structures which he
>examined were used as gas chambers.


Greg has, of course, been through all of this.  He has, also, seen the 
following:


Institute for Forensic Expertise
Cracow on the 24th Sept 1990

Ref No 720/90

To the State Museum at Auschwitz-Birkenau

The Institute for Forensic Expertise in memory of Prof. Dr. Sehn in 
Cracow
submits herewith its opinion compiled by the experts Prof. Dr. Jan
Markiewicz, Dr. Wojoiech Gubals Eng. Jerzy Labedz and Magister Beate
Trzcinska.

In conjunction with reports published in the western countries and with
trials going on there some opinions came up that at Auschwitz no gas 
Zyklon
B has been used for the purpose of killing human beings, the Museum at
Auschwitz asked us to analyze samples taken from the walls of gas 
chambers
there and to find the presence of hydrocyanide.

On the 20th February 1990 the Institute for Forensic Expertise sent the
following team of its experts to the camp and the Museum at Auschwitz
Birkenau: Dr. Wojciech Gubals and Eng. J. Labedz - in order to take 
there
samples for analysis, to find possibly any traces of hydrocyanic 
compounds.
According to the minutes the samples were taken from rooms inside of 
Block 3,
>from  crematory 1 at Auschwitz, but also from crematories 2, 3 and 5 at
Birkenau. The samples taken were plaster from the wall and pieces of 
brick -
all taken in the presence of Dr. Franciszek Piper, the manager of the 
Museum.
Another samples were taken from the walls of Block 11 at Auschwitz, in 
the
presence of Magister Piotr Setkiewicz, assistant of the Museum. 
Altogether 22
samples were taken, this including 2 control samples taken from places 
far
away, where a contamination with hydrocyanide could be excluded.

Out of 20 samples, 10 samples were taken from rooms inside of Block 3 at
Auschwitz vis. from rooms 1, 2, 3 and 4 where the disinfection of 
prisoner's
garments were done by use of Zyklon B.

According to our information these rooms were painted during the war. 
Some
spots of bluish tint can be seen shining through the painting.

Another 5 samples were taken from the ruins of crematory 2 gas chamber 
at
Birkenau and one sample from the ruin of crematory 5, and one sample 
>from  the
wall of crematory 1 at Auschwitz. No samples were taken from the ruins 
of
crematory 4 because the fragments of 30-40 cm height were erected after 
the
war.

The aforementioned assistants of the Institute for Forensic Expertise 
received, in addition, an envelope containing approx 150 g of human hair
preserved by a worker of the Museum and 4 samples of hair tissue, also
preserved by a worker of the Museum.

All these preserved samples and materials (plaster, brick, hair, hair 
tissue)
were shredded and put into micro-diffusion chambers. Next process: the
samples were immersed into sulfuric acid and dissolved into a Conway 
chamber
during a period of 24 hours, at chamber temperature. Vapors and gases
emanating under these conditions were absorbed by a solution of sodium
hydroxide. After completion of diffusion, the colored liquid was 
brought into
reaction with a pirazolonic reagent and the intenseness of the achieved 
color
was measured spectrophotometrically. the relating concentration of the
cyanide compound was determined by means of a drawn oblique calibration 
which
was checked in each of measured series by the aid of a gauge.

                                   RESULTS

Among the 10 samples taken from rooms inside of Block 3 - in which
disinfection with Zyklon B were carried out - in 7 samples the presence 
of
hydrocyanide compounds was found out in concentrations from 9 to 147
micrograms in 100 grams of material after conversion into calium cyanide
which was used as gauge in preparing the oblique calibration.

The concentration of cyanides in the material analyzed.

     # of sample              concentration of cyanides (micrograms in 
100 g)
         1                                              17
         2                                               9
         7                                              19
         8                                              35
         9                                             101
        10                                             132
        11                                             147
        15                                               6

Attention: In the remaining sealed samples no cyanides were traced.

All additional samples were analyzed in the infrared spectrophotometer 
F TS
15 B made by Digilab. The result of this technique revealed cynic 
stripes in
5 samples, most often between 2000-2200 cm^-1. A more or less faint 
bluish
tint appeared on 5 additional samples analyzed. This kind of bluish 
tint can
be caused by complex cyanide compounds entering a chemical reaction with
ferro-related agents which are known as Prussian Blue.

Among those samples taken from gas chambers of crematories No. 1, 2, 3 
and 5
only one sample #15 - taken from a pillar inside of the gas chamber of
crematory 2 at Birkenau - gave trifle traces of cyanide compounds viz. 6
micrograms/100 g of plaster.

Negative results gave the analysis of human hair and hair tissue. The 
same
negative result gave the analysis of the 2 control samples.

On the 18th July 1990 Dr. Gubals once again visited the former Auschwitz
concentration camp and took another 7 samples from places there. After 
the
chemical analysis the presence of hydrocyanide compounds therein was 
proved.
These materials underwent once again the chemical analysis mentioned 
above,
and again positive results have been obtained.

Hydrocyanide HCN detaching from Zyklon B is a liquid with a boiling 
point of approx 27 degrees Centigrade.

It has an aciduious character and produces salts called cyanides when
contacting with metals. Salts of alcalic metals such as natrium and 
calcium,
are dissolvable in water.

HCN is a very poor acid and therefore its salts easily disperse if 
mixed with
stronger acids. Such an acid is carbonic acid which emanates through the
reaction of bicarbon oxide and water. cyanides are more easily 
dissolved by
stronger acids like sulfuric acid. Much more durable are those complex
compounds of cyanic ions amalgamating with heavy metals. Such one is the
aforementioned Prussian Blue, but even it dissolved slowly in an 
aciduious
environment.

Under such circumstances it was a vain hope that after 45 years cyanide 
acid
compounds could be found preserved in building material (plaster, 
brick) if
exposed to the action of atmospheric forces such as aciduious rains and
aciduious oxygenes, especially those of sulfurous and nitrogenous 
complexion.
A better chance had the analysis of plaster taken from safe places, 
prtected
>from  the action of precipitation (including aciduous rains).

Therefore, the analysis of plaster taken from rooms inside of Block 3
confirmed the presence of hydrocyanic acid compounds, even in very 
trifle
quantities. This result confirms the know fact that in those rooms 
inside
Block 3 Zyklon B has been used for disinfection purposes.

It was a matter of luck to detect hydrocyanide compounds in materials 
under
action of atmospheric forces.

[end of report]

Welcome back Greg.  While we dislike one another, you are at least 
capable of carrying on a rational discussion without resorting to 
personalities.

Gary aka Termy


----------


From patchwgl@infinop.com Thu Aug 15 13:37:10 PDT 1996
Article: 57537 of alt.revisionism
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From: patchwgl@infinop.com (Gary)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Nazi gas chambers]
Date: 14 Aug 1996 23:04:25 GMT
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>   Greg Raven  writes:

>  If you don't agree that Leuchter has the expertise and competence to
>  evaluate claimed Nazi gas chambers, please supply the name of the person
>  you do find experienced and competent, along with the results of their
>  comprehensive and thorough examination of the alleged Nazi gas chambers.

Actually, Greg's indulging a rather unusual logical fallacy.  "If (A) 
isn't acceptable, then there must be a (B) that is."  This is a 
variation of the Bifurcation Fallacy. 

Reductio ad absurdum:

I propose that Greg be immediately killed by having a 20,000 lb hot 
fudge sundae droppped upon him from earth orbit.  If Greg does not find 
this 
acceptable, then he must suggest an alternative method of death which 
he DOES find acceptable, so that _it_ may immediately be implemented.

Assuming Greg is not suicidal, no alternative will be acceptable to 
him.  Or, in other words, just because one set of conditions isn't 
acceptable doesn't mean there exists a set which is.

Be that as it may...

The objections to Leuchter's Report center about his conclusion(s) and 
his scientific methodology.  The interesting thing is that, despite his 
truly abysmal scientific methodology, his results are, in all 
essentials and within the limits imposed by his improper methodology, 
in agreement with the 1945 & 1990 Cracow Institute of Forensic 
Research/Expertise studies.

Of course, his conclusions differ...

Perhaps you'll accept the Cracow Institutes' studies instead?

Note:  I made no reference to Leuchter's credentials, dealing only with 
the specific issue of his Report.  If you wish to get into details 
regarding his bona fides, feel free.  I suggest, however, that it will 
not be to your advantage.


Gary aka Termy


----------


From patchwgl@infinop.com Thu Aug 15 13:37:11 PDT 1996
Article: 57570 of alt.revisionism
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From: patchwgl@infinop.com (Gary)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
Date: 14 Aug 1996 23:06:07 GMT
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On 8/11/96 at 19:54, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote: 

[snip]
>
>Failing that, and according to the Cowardly Lyin's *own* rules, I do not
>believe him, he is a vile little liar and he can jump in the lake.  
>
>
>--
>Gord McFee
>I'll write no line before its time
>
You tryin' to get the EPA on your case?  If'n Giwer jumps in a lake 
because of your suggestion, they'll sho'nuff be jumpin' on you for 
pollution.


----------


From patchwgl@infinop.com Thu Aug 15 13:37:11 PDT 1996
Article: 57571 of alt.revisionism
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From: patchwgl@infinop.com (Gary)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
Date: 14 Aug 1996 23:05:53 GMT
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On 8/11/96 at 22:06, fresh@panix.com (Andrew Mathis) wrote: 

>
>Um, not to complicate things, but the harassment of Giwer *pere* was
>imagined and not real.
>
>Andrew
>
Further, a relay of a pertinent post or two, to a friend of mine who's 
a practicing M.D. verified my recollections of things ulcer.

To wit, if Giwer the Elder began manifesting symptoms of an ulcer in 
the time frame in question after the phone call, then the ulcer was 
already present, in an asymptomatic form.  Therefore, at worst, 
Andrew's call brought a serious medical problem to Giwer the Elder's 
attention, assuming Giwer the Younger isn't indulging in some sort of 
paranoical flight of fancy.

Thank the nice man, Mattie.

This, of course, assumes Giwer has a father.  I wasn't aware virus's 
reproduced by any means other than fission.  But then, giwerii zoster 
has broken ground in several areas.  Who'd have ever thought a virus 
could be taught to type?

Gary aka Termy


----------


From patchwgl@infinop.com Thu Aug 15 18:57:01 PDT 1996
Article: 57627 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!psgrain!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!insync!uuneo.neosoft.com!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!news.iglobal.net!CNM10
From: patchwgl@infinop.com (Gary)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Giwerian wet dreams
Date: 14 Aug 1996 23:06:38 GMT
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A recent visit to Giwer's homepage was extremely informative.

There were about a 150 mentions of Giwer--in the logo, various 
"art works," text, headers, footers, etc.

Perhaps _most_ illuminating was Giwer's jpg of a fake CIA ID, with 
Giwer in the leading role as, get this, Director of Special Operations. 
 Of course, it was complete with a picture that was, presumably, 
intended to be Giwer.


----------


From patchwgl@infinop.com Sun Aug 25 09:51:37 PDT 1996
Article: 59731 of alt.revisionism
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From: patchwgl@infinop.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Those Sensitive Nazis."
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 05:44:25 -0600
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Matt Giwer wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 24 Aug 1996 18:32:18 GMT, mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis)
> wrote:
> 
> >kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele) wrote:
> 
> >>"The nazis were fighting a 2-front war
> 
> >This in itself was pretty stupid. I know, you didn't ask me. :-)
> 
> >> Or even if they had wanted to "gas" jews instead of
> >>easily shooting them,
> 
> >Herr Wankmeister thinks shooting human beings up close and personal is
> >an easy thing. Amazing that he would say considering he's not doing
> >any of the work.
> 
>         Over 3 million were killed that way.  How hard can it be?

For someone such as yourself, who's shown a vicious anti-semitism, a
callous disregard for human life and total insensitivity for humanity in
general, it might not be too difficult.  For humans, however, it would
be difficult.

If nothing else, the M1898 Mauser, chambered in 8X57mm has a recoil that
is very close to that of the .30-06.  I.e., it has a not inconsiderable
kick.  Firing a military rifle in either chambering is tiring after the
first 30 or so rounds.  Cumulative effects would be wearing indeed.

Of course you _have_ read the Jager report, which speaks directly of the
issue you're addressing, haven't you?

Shall I refresh your memory?

-- 
Gary aka Termy

He is a man who would be vastly improved by hanging.

                               H.H. Munroe



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As part of these educational purposes, Nizkor may include on this website materials, such as excerpts from the writings of racists and antisemites. Far from approving these writings, Nizkor condemns them and provides them so that its readers can learn the nature and extent of hate and antisemitic discourse. Nizkor urges the readers of these pages to condemn racist and hate speech in all of its forms and manifestations.