The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/nyms/ehrlich606/1996/ehrlich.0796


From ehrlich606@aol.com Mon Jul  1 09:07:48 PDT 1996
Article: 47239 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: To People I Respect Who Hate Me Anyway
Date: 25 Jun 1996 20:52:58 -0400
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Dear Anon:

There is an old Masonic concept that holds that God is an event that takes
place only when there is more than _one_ person.  Therefore we must be
sociable, in spite of ourselves.

All of us have had ample opportunity to dilate, burn, flame, and insult
here.  Sometimes with, and sometimes without, provocation.  But what is
really going on here is a conversation, in which we all share in fact an
obsession with the subject and related subjects.  I once pointed out, in
that regard, that we had more in common than we think, that we were,
therefore, all *Holohuggers*; which I fancifully derived from the idea of
*cleaving* to *all* (Greek, holos).  Then we could find its origin in the
line from Beethoven's 9th, *Seid umschlungen, Millionen, diesen Kuss der
ganzen Welt!*  -- *Be ye embraced, Millions, this kiss for the entire
world!*

I am sure that my approach will be dismissed as sentimental or romantic. 
But I still maintain that most of the people here have a lot more in
common with each other, and *polish each other as diamonds do* in
Mommsen's phrase, than we care to admit.

Therefore, when someone breaches the etiquette of this our group, an
apology is called for, for the sake of the group.  Therefore I apologize
to the unknown one, for being unnecessarily rude and even mean.  I am
quite sincere about this.

My excuse will be my humanity, but since that doesn't sound good enough, I
think I will also blame it on the fact that I am trying to quit smoking,
or at least cut back.  And that I didn't get much sleep last night.

So, anyway, I am sorry, and let's get back to learning from each other and
fighting.

Play Ball!



From ehrlich606@aol.com Mon Jul  1 09:07:49 PDT 1996
Article: 47248 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Baron exposes shameless Jewish Holocaust liars
Date: 25 Jun 1996 21:51:00 -0400
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In article <4qpo8s$76m@atlas.uniserve.com>, hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary
Ostrov) writes:

>you misjudge him.  He doesn't hate anybody.  
>
>Well, golly gee, Mr. E. I suppose you might have a greater insight
>into Myshkin's character and motivations than the rest of us.  But
>then all we have to go by are his postings to this newsgroup.

SO predictable.  DO you think it might be because I prefer to talk to
people than rant in front of an audience?  That I send e-mail, receive it,
and answer it?  You could work out a lot of things too, but you are into
this division and hate thing.  That's cool.

>
>>But he doesn't have to kiss up to anybody either.
>
>Hmmm ... interesting non sequitur, Mr. E.  Then again, it might simply
>be gratuitous innuendo.  I see that you haven't forsaken the eloquent
>ambiguity which I found to be a hallmark of your posts the last time
>you graced us with your presence, Mr. E.

Since Hilary has so well mastered the art of insinuation to the point of
attenuation, I cannot clearly say what insult is being hurled here.  No
matter.  Methinks that if she had been more explicit, she might have
blurted out something telling.




From ehrlich606@aol.com Mon Jul  1 09:07:50 PDT 1996
Article: 47261 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where smoke and flame stories come from
Date: 25 Jun 1996 20:52:00 -0400
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In article <4qoh46$m66@news-e2d.gnn.com>, Widmann@gnn.com (Richard
Widmann) writes:

>
>Revisionism is a label.  It has as much and as little value as just 
>about any other label.  Classical music is a label as well.  Listen 
>closely and you will find many different ideas. 
>
>

This is a succinct and well expressed thought.  


From ehrlich606@aol.com Mon Jul  1 09:07:51 PDT 1996
Article: 47325 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: NIZKOR AND DENIERS
Date: 25 Jun 1996 21:34:20 -0400
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In article <4qm4bv$u7u@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord
McFee) writes:

>Subject:	NIZKOR AND DENIERS
>From:	gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
>Date:	Sun, 23 Jun 1996 15:47:37 EDT
>
>What is it about Nizkor that has the deniers all in a tizzy?  They don't
>miss a chance to put it down, yet they can't stop talking about it.
>
>Well, I have a couple of thoughts on this.

And what are these thoughts? [the following is edited]

> it becomes quickly apparent
>what mental midgets and losers the deniers are.  It becomes clear that
they
>are either power hungry life-losers or anti-Semites, or both.
>Deniers hate this [...] 
>and the denier-scum are just that.  And deniers hate that [...] 
spineless chicanery.  

Gord, have you ever talked to anyone about learning to express your anger?
 

>
>Imagine.  Free access to the source documents, with no bowdlerism and no
>censorship. 

Major problem here.  Although Nizkor is to be commended for its archives
of material, it should be pointed out that much of its data does _not_
link to primary sources, but rather to extracts from secondary sources
that have already edited the primary sources.  Not to say that that is
Nizkor's fault.  And, moreover, their gradual on-lining of the Nuremberg
documentation deserves the highest praise.  Then _I_ will be able to
access it, once again.

> And more.  Nizkor not only isn't afraid of the denier sites, it
>links to them!  Something the deniers are, by and large, too cowardly and
>dictatorial to do (Craven Raven comes to mind).

I don't know why Raven doesn't link.  I do know that CODOH and the
Zundelseite do.  And it is easier to get to Nizkor from those two sites
than the other way around.  

>
>Now you know a couple of the reasons why the deniers hate and fear
Nizkor. 
>It stands for all the things they do not: intellectual freedom, fairness;
>historical objectivity; *real* research.

That's nice! :)  The Nizkor archives _may_ stand for the Maple Leaf, the
Crown, and the Canadian equivalent of apple pie, but their representatives
on this board are human, all too human.

Another problem here.  Some of the FAQs or whatever you call them are not
particularly strong.  For example, the matter of the soap making.  As we
all know, the only evidence for this activity was given by Mazur at
Nuremberg, who claimed that his boss, Dr. Spanner, made about 400
kilograms  (?) of such soap which Dr. Spanner reserved for his personal
use.  Although the Nizkor historian admits that Dr. Spanner was
investigated anent these charges more than once, and was never prosecuted,
this individual nevertheless insists on concluding -- with a question mark
-- that Dr. Spanner could well have done so.  Since Mazur's testimony in
its entirety contains elements that are even more far out than the above,
and which no responsible historian accepts, I frankly consider such an
analysis a slander on Dr. Spanner's memory.

    


From ehrlich606@aol.com Mon Jul  1 09:07:51 PDT 1996
Article: 47342 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Burned alive in Bialystok
Date: 25 Jun 1996 21:43:03 -0400
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In article <31d01a65.336469706@news.zilker.net>, mike@aimetering.com (Mike
Curtis) writes:

>>People killed in reprisals usually bear no individual guilt.  Reprisals
>>are a species of collective responsibility.  
>
>Spoken like a true Nazi I fear. I hate having to take ultimate
>responsibility for things I didn't have a say in. 

Then you have no understanding of the concept of collective
responsibility.  Consult Antonia Fraser's *Lord Protector* and find out
what *decimate* means.  Consult Barbara Tuchman's *Guns of August* to find
out what *reprisals* are, and why they are carried out. Consult Correlli
Barnett's *Hitler's Generals*, article on Kesselring, and understand why
Churchill pled for a reprieve for Kesselring, after he had been charged
with war crimes in the course of carrying out reprisal shootings,
including the famous Ardeatine Caves massacre, in 335 Romans were shot in
reprisal for the partisan killing of 30 German soldiers.  (He was
reprieved, and ultimately received clemency.)  Finally, consult the Diary
of Emanuel Ringleblum (in Warsaw) for a discussion of *collective
responsibility.*

>
>>Subjectively experienced,
>>they are terrorism, or state terror.  It is a loathsome business and
>>everybody does it.
>
>Everybody's doin' it, doin' it . . . This is what trivializing is all
>about.

No trivialization, except in your trivial mind.  Actually, I am giving the
Allies the benefit of the doubt.  Consult Max Hastings' *Bomber Command*
for reasons for the fire bombing of Dresden and 70 other German cities
which makes no claim to collective responsibility.  Which, IMHO, could
have largely have meliorated history's verdict.

>
>>  Do you think the 600,000 German men, women, and
>>children killed in (mostly) British bomb attacks *had anything to do*
with
>>WW2 or the Holocaust?
>
>They didn't really know the true impact of the Holocaust. I think most
>people here will resent this childish statment. 

You are hard-wired such that any statement is resented.  The German
civilian victims of Bomber Command had little or nothing to do with the
Holocaust or WW2.  In the main, they were the elderly, women, and
children.  I suppose that you are suggesting that if they had known the
full impact, they would have deserved to be burned alive?

And of course your tiresome response to this string is to generate more ad
hominems. 

I am trying to relax and be nice, but you keep starting it.  
 


From ehrlich606@aol.com Mon Jul  1 11:59:40 PDT 1996
Article: 47395 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Color of Zyklon: Call Me Zyklon Blue
Date: 26 Jun 1996 10:18:26 -0400
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In article <4qo6hh$ik1@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
writes:

>
>>I would think that Peters would be a more reliable source or does Ms.
>>Sommers disagree? 

What is the source of the forgery in which _my_ name is linked with
RuthSommers?

-- Ehrlich606


From ehrlich606@aol.com Mon Jul  1 11:59:41 PDT 1996
Article: 47397 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Color of Zyklon: Call Me Zyklon Blue
Date: 26 Jun 1996 10:18:29 -0400
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In article <4qqeo8$lia@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>, rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU
(Richard J. Green) writes:

>
>If true, I apologize for the insinuation.
>
>

No sweat.  You can't tell the players without a program.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Mon Jul  1 13:52:47 PDT 1996
Article: 47463 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Question #2:  Evidence of a Conspiracy
Date: 30 Jun 1996 14:08:39 -0400
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In article <31D6B920.7685@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison  writes:

>>         You are setting up your own straw man of conspiracy and then
>shooting it
>> down.  That is an easy target.
>
>I hope that Mr Erlich-whatever is taking note of how Mr Giwer is willing
>to discuss something rationally with someone who has asked a
straighforward
>question, has not insulted or even insinuated an insult and has done
>nothing to provoke Mr Giwer.
>
>And he wonders why Giwer is the butt of so many jokes and insults...

Yes, but you see here, you are starting off with this Jewish conspiracy
stuff and I think that angers him.  I also think that mentioning a Jewish
conspiracy is a deliberately provocative gambit, as a matter of fact.  And
I also think it is a straw man.

Just to mention it is to tar with an ant-semitic brush.  I don't think
that is fair.  And I don't think Matt or others consider it fair.
  


From ehrlich606@aol.com Tue Jul  2 06:55:32 PDT 1996
Article: 47602 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Question #2:  Evidence of a Conspiracy
Date: 2 Jul 1996 00:19:24 -0400
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In article <31D55831.4B4D@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison  writes:

>
>> This dovetails into my second question.  As I understand it, the
>> revisionist position is that the gas chamber story and the plan to
>> exterminate the Jews was a conspiratorial hoax perpetrated by one or
more
>> of the following:  World Jewry, Zionists and one or more of the allies.
>> It is alleged that this is one of the greatest hoaxes in history

This is _one_ revisionist version.  I think if the revisionists could be
said to have a *Null hypothesis* is that conventional scholars have shown
an unwillingness to admit that forged documents, perjured testimony, and
flights of fancy have been allowed to become part of the *historical
record*.  Aside from oblique comments by Otto Friedrich, and a few others,
conventional scholars have been very rare in coming out and saying *this
[or that] [testimony/document/photograph] is [not true/forged/doctored].*

>> 
>>  Is there any evidence of this conspiracy:  For example:
>> 
>> 1.  Who are the individuals who participated?

According to Sefton Delmer, who worked with British intelligence, he was
one.  There are other individuals of whom there is suspicion of taking
part in forgeries.  They were generally affiliated with the propaganda
arms of the victorious allies.

>> 
>> 2.  Were there any meetings to plan the conspiracy?  If so, when and
where
>> and who participated?

This is unknown to me.
>> 
>> 3.  Did the allied leadership participate in the conspiracy?  If so,
who
>> participated?


David Irving has cited internal British intelligence documents on the
manner in which atrocity stories should be handled: this was at the 2nd
Zundel trial (q.v.).

>> 
>> 4.  Who knew about this conspiracy?

Obviously, the participants.
>> 
>> 5.  Are there documents or notes relating to the conspiracy?

Irving has cited some.  Delmer wrote a book about it.  Other materials
will probably emerge in time, _if_ they exist.
>
>You might add one of the most interesting questions that no revisionist
>to my knowledge has ever answered:
>
>6.  If this conspiracy forged the documents and photos and so on that
>have withstood scrutiny for the last half-century, why did they not
>simply forge an unabiguous order from Hitler along the lines of
>
>    From: the Fuhreur
>    To:   Himmler
>
>    I want the Jews dead.  Immediately draw up plans to be presented
>    by Friday next.
>
>This simple forgery would have saved a great deal of trouble, no?  With
>Hitler and Himmler dead who would have known any different?

The problem with this idea is that such a document would have been
subjected to tremendous scrutiny, and if it _had_ been forged that fact
would have been established in no time.  Other documents of a much more
lower level, like:  The Brack method letter, Kube's letters about
liquidations [while other documents show that he was even under
_investigation_ for preferential treatment of Reich Jews in Minsk --
source for this is materials in Jahrbuecher der Zeitgeschichte which are
unobtainable outside of large universities -- if you don't believe such
documents exist, ok], the well known 4,756 crematorium letter *unearthed*
by the East German communists in 1981, i.e., at about the same time the
Soviets forged Demjanjuk's Treblinka ID card, and others -- are not as
revelatory and therefore as likely to be given high scrutiny.

For the most part, I don't think that the level of forgeries for _highly_
incriminating documents is very significant at all, for reasons of
scrutiny suggested above.


>
>--



From ehrlich606@aol.com Tue Jul  2 06:55:32 PDT 1996
Article: 47629 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust final exam
Date: 1 Jul 1996 23:49:58 -0400
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In article <4r29s4$2jnk@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord
McFee) writes:

>
>*I* discussed the war with two guards, one of whom had been at Sobibor
and
>the other at Treblinka, and *they* sure as hell knew about gassings.
>
>
>

Yes, and it is for reasons like that that I don't categorically deny
gassings. 


From ehrlich606@aol.com Tue Jul  2 10:17:25 PDT 1996
Article: 47693 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The true revisionist theme
Date: 1 Jul 1996 22:24:36 -0400
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In article <4r21k7$c5a@panix2.panix.com>, rakshasa@panix.com (Kevin Filan)
writes:

>
>	One thing which I'd note; sooner or later every revisionist I've 
>come across has wound up talking about the "conspiracy" to "promote the 
>Holocaust."  Let's face it; to accept the Revisionist position, you have 
>to admit that there was a hoax, and that someone has perpetrated it.  And

>yes, sooner or later, almost every Revisionist winds up pointing at the 
>"Zionist lobby," the "Jewish media," the "Cohens of the world," etc.  Who

>_else_ would promote a fictitious genocide to further their cause? (The 
>Soviets surely didn't profit from Israel's continued existence!)

1)  Thank you for not calling me a Nazi,  2)  Everybody benefited by the
concept of the Holocaust:  it justified the division of Germany for 50
years, and enabled everyone to thereby stop fearing yet another war with
Germany.  As to aspects of the Holocaust that may/may not be fake, my
feeling is that that part of it was war propaganda, mostly Soviet.  I
think Zionism may have exploited the propaganda, but I don't think they
created it.  If the Soviets had pushed at Nuremberg a thesis that the
Germans had eaten their victims, that would have been used subsequently. 
The content is not relevant.  The form and manner are.  The bottom line I
am too suspicious of the Stalinist regime and the manner in which evidence
was presented at Nuremberg.

Never suspect conspiracy when fear, stupidity, or inattention are at work.



From ehrlich606@aol.com Tue Jul  2 11:14:33 PDT 1996
Article: 47721 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: NIZKOR AND DENIERS
Date: 1 Jul 1996 19:53:01 -0400
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In article <29JUN199610002404@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>,
dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) writes:

>
>    However, what the American devistation of Native American culture
(and
>    Native Americans) does demonstrate is that Americans (of European
>    heritage) were capable of viewing Indians as inferior and a barrier
to
>    greater American prosperity (manifest destiny?).  They were able to
>    extend this to killing (or in the case of the vast majority of
>    Americans, silently standing by) immense numbers of the Native
American
>    community.
>
>    [I acknowledge in these assertions that this is not my area of study
>    and my awareness of facts is vague and general.]
>
>

What Mike is getting at, I believe, is the fact that if you equate the two
then you are appearing to excuse what the Germans/Nazis did.  As a matter
of fact, I believe Goering first equated the American Indians and the Jews
at Nuremberg.  Hans Frank once made the equation in a speech.

Generally, if you want to say that the equivalence exists, by way of
arguing that every nation has skeletons in its closet, you can probably do
so.  (However many Americans have little shame about the treatment of the
Indians, at all).  OTOH, if you make the equivalence in order to foster a
blase attitude towards what happened to the Jews, you will get your head
handed to you.  Off hand, I would say justifiably.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Tue Jul  2 14:57:41 PDT 1996
Article: 47781 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust final exam
Date: 1 Jul 1996 19:34:16 -0400
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In article <177B7D55BS86.BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>, BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
(borowsky) writes:

> 
>You should read Ehrlich's longer post, "Three Holocausts".  I am unable
to
>summarize the whole of it, but he pointed out, that unlike other
atrocities,
>an entire culture, specifically the culture of Eastern Europeans, was
>annihilated.  The Yiddish language being only one loss.  Neither the
peoples
>of Russia nor Mexico nor Germany faced near-total eradication; nor were
>they forced to begin again with such radically discontinuity.

Thanks for the promo, Bruce.  And, while I am at it, the purpose of that
post was to point out that the reality of the Holocaust is not contingent
on numbers, percentages, or how many perished in such and such a way.

My point was that, no matter how you slice it, the Holocaust was _unique_,
at least in the past thousand years of Western Civilization.  I still feel
that my approach vouchsafes the uniqueness of the Holocaust _in such a
way_ that it neither demands an argument that the Germans were _uniquely
evil_ nor does it minimize, but rather puts in perspective, the sufferings
of the rest of Europe, including the Germans.  

Of course, it follows that it would be something guarded with great
solemnity by those most severely affected by it.  Respect the Jewish
interpretation of their own history!  But, unfortunately, in the past 20
years, and I don't know how much revisionism has had to do with this, the
history of the Holocaust has been, in my opinion, marginalized to some
extent to the Judaica shelves of libraries and bookstores.  I am not sure
that that is a good idea, but the dilemma is that if we try to integrate
the Jewish perspective into the general secular picture, what happens to
the Jewish perspective, the Jewish people, and Judaism in the process?  At
least we can note that this problem, which I see as a continuation of
problems of assimilation _per se_ is over 200 years old.
    
BTW, I don't think most people on either side of the aisle buy my
interpretation.  I don't hold Matt to it, in other words.

> 
>>
>>        This holocaust memorializing is a total inversion of human
nature.
>As  I
>>have said before, it is like the widow who visits the grave of her
>>husband every Sunday and has not changed anything in the house since the
>>day he died.
> 

I can understand what Matt is saying to an extent here.  But you have to
allow people to sublimate their grief when they feel it is appropriate. 
It is an individual and personal thing.  For those of us who don't feel it
anymore, or as strongly, or never as strongly as others, we really should
not judge.  

> 
>So you do have an explanation for it-- almost identical to the one I
offered
>above:  you believe that some people have too much emotional investment
>(& you hint political investment too, but this is conspiracy & you said.
..)
>in the Holocaust to listen to your version of events.  You've been saying
it
>for a while now (& it was inevitable that you did).  This has been the
>implicit
>critique you have been making;  otherwise, what point would there be in
>degrading people with `hologhugger'?
> 

Time out!  *Holohugger* isn't degrading.  It's teasing.  Although I would
tend to agree that -- reading Bruce's comments -- that Matt could be more
_sensitive_.  But you know what?  On this board, the more sensitive you
are, the easier it is to get your head cut off.  It is called, I believe,
the *vibrant political culture* of alt.rev.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Tue Jul  2 17:20:40 PDT 1996
Article: 47797 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Forging Ahead
Date: 2 Jul 1996 14:36:57 -0400
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In article <31d94afd.77446673@news.zilker.net>, mike@aimetering.com (Mike
Curtis) writes:

>
>>
>>
>>From *Defending Ivan the Terrible* by Yoram Sheftel (NY:1996, orig.
1993)
>>
>>I moved on to the last major subject of his testimony: the
forgery
>>of the Travniki document.  Tolstoy remarked that document forgery of all
>>kinds had been an important element of KGB activity from the moment it
was
>>founded.  He gave as an example the forgery of reports to show that the
>>Germans and not the Soviets had murdered 15,000 Polish officers in the
>>forest near Katyn in 1941.
>
>It's a shame that no one believed the Soviets. Why doesn't this Katyn
>reference just die the death it deserves?

Because in the last analysis the court allowed the Soviets to enter in to
the indictment charges about Katyn, allowed them to present *evidence* and
*witnesses* about Katyn, and -- rather than admit the facts -- just
ignored Katyn altogether in the final judgment.  Now -- why do you think
the ever vigilant French, English, and Americans did that?  Why did they
_allow_ that?

>
>> [....]  An entire division of the KGB, known as
>>*Division 14,* dealt solely with the forgery of documents.  Tolstoy
>>related that in his book, *Stalin’s Secret War* he had dwelt on document
>>forgery by the KGB, and had therefore studied the subject in depth. 
>>Towards the end of this session, an authentic report was submitted that
>>demonstrated the sophistication of the KGB’s forgers.  According to
>>Tolstoy, no document should be ruled authentic simply because certain
>>details, such as seals and words, are correct.  This assumption is
>>especially invalid because the historical details were well known to the
>>KGB forgers.  p. 171
>>
>>Why am I not surprised to read this?
>
>Beats me? I'm not surprised, but this does not go to any of the
>documents in question. Claiming that forgery was a practise of a
>particualr group doesn't suggest that a particular document was
>forged. There are forgeries out of the Texas Constitution and many
>other documents. Some sources have been identified as selling forged
>documents. This simply raises the level of scrutiney used when
>examining their documents before sale. Most historians, Ehrlich,
>scrutinize new documents with a great degree of skeptism.

And how many historians scrutinized the tons of documents entered into the
record at Nuremberg?  How many have, since then?  Are you aware that many
documents referenced from the IMT are in fact copies?

>
>>
>>With regard to the Travniki document, Tolstoy explained that the
>>fact that nothing was known about its archival background was in itself
>>enough to raise grave misgivings  about its authenticity [...]  Only
>>access to archives whose proper and honest management is widely accepted
>>could aid in determining the authenticity of a document.  Precisely the
>>opposite was true of archives in the Soviet Union.  p. 172
>>
>Do you know anything of the way documents are validated? Do we need to
>conduct a course on the way old documents are verified in this group?
>
>>Of course, this is a knife that can cut both ways.
>
>Knives aren't involved. Integrity is.

I am assuming that you don't mean to be discussing the integrity of the
Soviet Union.

The integrity in question, to me,  involves the manner in which documents
are verified when there is no established chain of custody.  To be sure,
that kind of approach could be used to dismiss the value of a great deal
(not only Soviet) Nuremberg evidence.  But the same approach could be used
against any future evidence arising from Soviet archives on, e.g., what
*vergasungskeller* meant, or what not.

>
>>
>>The fact that the document had also been given to the Americans
in
>>1981 by Rudenko, the Soviets States Attorney, raised even more
suspicions.
>> This man, according to Tolstoy, was one of the 20th Century’s greatest
>>forgers.  His deceptions were at the base of the infamous Moscow trials
>>(mostly of leading Jewish Bolsheviks) in the late 1930’s, at which he
had
>>served as deputy chief prosecutor.  Rudenko had also tried to present
>>forgeries as evidence in the Nuremberg tribunals; but the Americans and
>>British prevented this.
>>
>
>Of course they did. But which ones?

For about the hundredth time, I don't know!  I don't have access to the
documents either in book form, copy, let along originals.  But what
surprised me about this passage is that it leaves little doubt that the
Soviet Union, a specific subagency of a specific agency, and specific
_individuals_ had a reputation for being master forgers.  It follows, not
only that all Soviet generated evidence must be viewed with suspicion, but
that a very high probability exists that some of this evidence was forged.
 Having said that, I make no further claims.
>
>>Rudenko?!  Man, he gets around.  I had no idea he was in on so much
trash.
>> It looks like Comrade Rudenko is someone that everyone on this board
can
>>be steamed at.  I will also point out that Sheftel’s last sentence is
>>contradicted at the very least by the reference to Katyn in the first
>>paragraph.
>>
>
>Katyn seems to be another strawman meaning nothing as far as the
>history of the Holocaust goes.
>

Actually, this is not about Katyn, it is about Demjanjuk.
>
>



From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jul  3 07:37:23 PDT 1996
Article: 47861 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A question for revisionists re: defenses at N'burg
Date: 2 Jul 1996 14:46:15 -0400
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In article <177B7FEACS86.BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>, BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
(borowsky) writes:

>>Auschwitz numbers, Katyn "and so on" - if I might borrow one of your
> 
>With my two requests, that makes three times that you have been asked to
>specify your concerns about the evidence and testimony at IMT, NMT &tc.
> 
> 
>--Bruce Borowsky
> 

Yes, and when I get seriously distracted with real life I will be accused
of running away, too.  Matt has posted a number of things over the past
two weeks that I find hard to accept.  These were generated at Nuremberg. 
John Morris assured us that he knew where all of this was from, of course,
he didn't tell us.  I would be happy to go over the testimony and the
evidence in detail and tell you where my doubts lie.  Do I have the time
for that?  Not really.  Can I afford to obtain these materials?  Probably
not.  So in my ignorance or forgetfulness I can only say I am skeptical.





From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jul  3 07:37:24 PDT 1996
Article: 47887 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Rekindling"
Date: 2 Jul 1996 07:59:27 -0400
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In article <31d7cb79.230453972@news.zilker.net>, mike@aimetering.com (Mike
Curtis) writes:

>
>I'm glad the Ruth Sommer stuff is cleared up. I think forged was a
>poor word to use. 
>
>

That was just my ignorance of Usenet vocabulary.  mea culpa.  I'm still a
newbie, remember?



From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jul  3 07:37:24 PDT 1996
Article: 47890 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Forging Ahead
Date: 1 Jul 1996 23:10:03 -0400
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>From  *Defending Ivan the Terrible* by Yoram Sheftel (NY:1996, orig. 1993)

I moved on to the last major subject of his testimony: the forgery
of the Travniki document.  Tolstoy remarked that document forgery of all
kinds had been an important element of KGB activity from the moment it was
founded.  He gave as an example the forgery of reports to show that the
Germans and not the Soviets had murdered 15,000 Polish officers in the
forest near Katyn in 1941. [....]  An entire division of the KGB, known as
*Division 14,* dealt solely with the forgery of documents.  Tolstoy
related that in his book, *Stalin’s Secret War* he had dwelt on document
forgery by the KGB, and had therefore studied the subject in depth. 
Towards the end of this session, an authentic report was submitted that
demonstrated the sophistication of the KGB’s forgers.  According to
Tolstoy, no document should be ruled authentic simply because certain
details, such as seals and words, are correct.  This assumption is
especially invalid because the historical details were well known to the
KGB forgers.  p. 171

Why am I not surprised to read this?

With regard to the Travniki document, Tolstoy explained that the
fact that nothing was known about its archival background was in itself
enough to raise grave misgivings  about its authenticity [...]  Only
access to archives whose proper and honest management is widely accepted
could aid in determining the authenticity of a document.  Precisely the
opposite was true of archives in the Soviet Union.  p. 172

Of course, this is a knife that can cut both ways.

The fact that the document had also been given to the Americans in
1981 by Rudenko, the Soviets States Attorney, raised even more suspicions.
 This man, according to Tolstoy, was one of the 20th Century’s greatest
forgers.  His deceptions were at the base of the infamous Moscow trials
(mostly of leading Jewish Bolsheviks) in the late 1930’s, at which he had
served as deputy chief prosecutor.  Rudenko had also tried to present
forgeries as evidence in the Nuremberg tribunals; but the Americans and
British prevented this.

Rudenko?!  Man, he gets around.  I had no idea he was in on so much trash.
 It looks like Comrade Rudenko is someone that everyone on this board can
be steamed at.  I will also point out that Sheftel’s last sentence is
contradicted at the very least by the reference to Katyn in the first
paragraph.



From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jul  3 07:37:25 PDT 1996
Article: 47904 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: 2 Jul 1996 23:07:00 -0400
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In article <4rc02l$kj9@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt
Giwer) writes:

>
>I am, as far as I can determine, an obscene and pathetic troller
>whose only interest is in causing fights.  My usual modus operandi when
>being flayed in a discussion is to ignore the statement completely and
post
>irrelevant drivel that I have cobbled somewhere, or to descend to the
gutters
>
>of obscenity or indecency, or both.  It is  obvious that rational
discourse 
>with him is not only not possible, it is feared by me.  
>
>
>
>

It sounds like those Maoist discussion circles with the Little Red Book
are starting to pay off.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jul  3 10:05:56 PDT 1996
Article: 47904 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: 2 Jul 1996 23:07:00 -0400
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In article <4rc02l$kj9@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt
Giwer) writes:

>
>I am, as far as I can determine, an obscene and pathetic troller
>whose only interest is in causing fights.  My usual modus operandi when
>being flayed in a discussion is to ignore the statement completely and
post
>irrelevant drivel that I have cobbled somewhere, or to descend to the
gutters
>
>of obscenity or indecency, or both.  It is  obvious that rational
discourse 
>with him is not only not possible, it is feared by me.  
>
>
>
>

It sounds like those Maoist discussion circles with the Little Red Book
are starting to pay off.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Thu Jul  4 07:43:40 PDT 1996
Article: 48186 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nyiszli's Memoirs of Auschwitz
Date: 3 Jul 1996 22:59:54 -0400
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In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
(Mark Van Alstine) writes:

>
>Aside from providing a brief synopsis of _Auschwitz: a doctor's
eyewitness
>account_, and as importantly offering me an opportunity to demonstrate
>that by and large Dr. Nyiszli's account is corroborated by several other
>ewyewitnesses (both Sonderkommandos and SS), what was your point here? 

Because I want a place to start to nail this stuff down so we can stop
spending so much time on it.

>
>In article <4r25vq$f0e@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
>(Ehrlich606) wrote:
>
>> The Memoirs of Dr. Nyiszli *Auschwitz* (Arcade, 1993)
>> 
>> [NOTE:  My comments here are to comprise notes on the memoirs of Dr.
>> Nyiszli whose memoirs were the first thing about the Holocaust I read,
>> over 30 years ago, and not since. [cut].]
>> 
[cut]

>> THE GASSING
>> 
>> There are several gassings described in the book, but the most detailed
>> occurs in Chapter 7.  (47-55).
>> 
>> 1.  Those selected for the left hand column are to be gassed.

OK, If the revisionist position means anything it means that the initial
selection is a work/no work selection, not a life or death selection. 
Therefore direction is important.
Left = death.  Right = life.  

>> 
>> 2.  The deportees are led into a room marked *Baths and Disinfecting
>> Room.*
>
>Yes. Tauber, Ho"ss, Broad, and Dr. Bendel corroborate that the victims
>were led to believe they were being taken to a bathouse for
>"disinfection." 

Yes, this is a common motif at all camps.  All survivors describe a shower
and head shaving as well.

>
>> 3.  The room is 200 yards long.
>> 
>> [Actually, it was about 25 feet by 170 feet]
>
>Actual dimensions: 30 m x 7 m x 2.4 m. 

The point here is that someone is exaggerating the dimensions, either
Nyiszli or Kremer.
>
>> 4.   The SS order the men, women, and children to undress and hang up
>> their clothes on numbered hooks.
>
>Yes. Corroborated by Tauber. 

I am just putting the details out here.  This detail makes sense. 
Although I don't conceive of there being that many hooks in the
*undressing room* of Krema II.  Understand, this is not an argument
against gassing, but it is an argument for smaller numbers of people being
gassed.

>
>> 5.  3,000 people are in the room.
>
>Probably too high (though Broad claims 4,000). More like 2,000. Usually
>1,000 to 1,500 for Kremas II and III (Less than 1,000 could be
efficiently
>handled when the gas chamber was split into two gas chamgbers). 1,000 to
>1,500 for Kremas IV and V (though probably less).  

I would say definitely too high.  The number is important if -- and I want
to stress this -- people are being gassed just because they are Jews or --
my preference, because of the Wannsee Minutes -- because they are Jewish
_and_ of no economic value (cf. also Munch's testimony).   

>
>> 6.  A large oaken gate opens, and the crowd is led into another room,
as
>> large as the first.
>> 
>> [There is no reference to an L-turn, required in the crematoria.  The
>> dimensions of the chamber are 98 feet by 25 feet]
>
>And? It was mentioned by Tauber. 

And it tells me that this is inaccurate -- unless there is a room under
the ovens themselves.  Is there?  What is in it?  I don't know and I am
asking.

>
>> 7.  In this second room there are  square, sheet metal pipes,
the
>> sides of which contain numerous perforations, like a wire lattice > quote>
>
>Yes. Also mentioned by Tauber (in sopme detail), Ho"ss, Mu"ller, Dr.
>Bendal (who described just two- indicating that L.Keller 1 had been
>divided into two gas chambers), as well as a detailed description by
Kula.

OK -- so they are _square_ sheet metal pipes.  Now -- is the induction
thing square or round?  Again, ignorance, I want to get this straight. 
BTW, when you say 1do you mean 2?

>
>
>> 8.  The SS depart, a Red Cross car drives up, and an SS man walks
across
>> the grass with four cans of Zyklon.
>
>The use of ambulances to transport the Zyklon B is also mentioned by
>Tauber and Dr. Bendal (who specifically mention them as having red
>crosses) and Broad. The amount of Zyklon used varied, generally about 4
kg
>per 1,000 victims.  

That would be because of medical orderlies, according to Munch.  So far,
so good.
>
>> 9.  Every 30 yards, short concrete pipes, with concrete lids, stick out
of
>> the ground.
>
>The distance is incorrect. They were spaced _between_ the concrete
support
>columns which were, according to the Bauleitung construction drawing 932,
>about 3.8 m apart. Their existance, however, was noted by Ho"ss, Mu"ller,
>and Tauber. Not to mention there is a Bauleitung photo of them.  

Agreed.  All of the dimensions are wrong, relative to scale.  Why, I am
not sure.  On the holes -- there are supposed to be four, between the
concrete ones? or abutting these?  And, please, recap the location of
existing holes in LK II, assuming that they are still visible.  But don't
rehash the entire argument, please.

>
>> 10.  Wearing a gas mask, he lifts the lid and pours the contents
 a
>> mauve, granulated material  into the pipe.
>
>All in accordance with what Broad and Tauber described. 

OK -- did they say mauve?  (or purple).  My theory is that people see blue
and blue bodies because of the name *Blausaure* which resonates blue in
both German or Yiddish.  Now if we can get the color straight we can drop
the ERCO bit.  Also, Death Dealer has a photo of Zyklon.  Black and white,
but it looks like cat litter.

>
>> 11.  The granulated substance falls in a lump to the bottom of the
shaft.
>
>Supposition on Nyiszli's part. He apparantly wasn't aware that it was
>poured into the removeable core. Tauber notes that it was. Ho"ss simply
>noted it was poured down the "air shaft." 

OK -- the removable core.  So far I follow.  Other witnesses do or not
corroborate?

> 
>> 12.   Within five minutes everyone was dead. 
>
>Such times for a gassing are corroborated by Ho"ss Broad, and Dr. Bendel.

But not corroborated by others?   Second point -- big argument about
diffusion time.  I am no scientist.  What is the story on this.

>
>> 13.  The SS wait five more minutes to make sure, light cigarettes, and
>> leave.
>
>Ditto. 

OK.  Tauber and Broad mesh very well with Nyiszli.  It is important to
know where and when there testimony comes from.  Could you direct me?
>
>> 14.  20 minutes later the ventilators kick on to clear out the gas
>> chamber.
>
>Confirmed by Ho"ss, though Pressac raises a good point that the
>ventilation system was probably turned on much earlier while the gas-tigh
>door were still closed and thus couldn't be heard. (The fans were in the
>in the roof of the Krema.) 

The *probably* is still *probably* -- I am just noting that.
>
>> 
>> 15.  The evacuation of the gas is done *quickly* but gas remains in the
>> nooks and crannies of the victims, such that  even two hours
later
>it 
>> caused a suffocating cough .
>
>Yep. Tauber relates that his Sonderkommando had to wait in the
>pathologist's room for two hours before entering the gas chamber for one
>gassing. Tauber also mentions having to wear gas masks when going into
the
>gas chamber.

Who is Tauber and where can I read him?  Second -- does HCN cause a
suffocating cough or does it knock you out?

>
>> 16.  As a result, the first Sonderkommando in the room where gas masks.
>
>Yep. 

OK -- then if there are no gas masks there is something missing in the
testimony.

>
>> 17.  The bodies are piled in a mass towards the ceiling, in order to
>> escape the gas, for no more than two or three minutes.
>
>An scene almost exactly the same was reported by Tauber. Dr. Bendel also
>describes a similar scene.

Main problem here is that if you have 2,000 or 1,000 in a room they are
jammed tight.  I am not sure about the movement factor.

> 
>> 18.  The death/air struggle has left the bodies scratched, bruised,
blood
>> oozing from noses and mouths, faces bloated and blue, covered with
>> excrement, and entangled with each other.
>
>A similar scene was reported by Tauber, though Ho"ss describes it as much
>more clean and apparantly less violent. Dr. Bendal describes the victims
>as being covered in blood and "giving the impression they fought
>desperately against death."

Actually, Hoess flatly contradicts this description, (Death Dealer, p. 44)
and this is a discrepancy that has to be explained.  Hoess also confirms a
half hour time until the vents go on. (loc. cit.)

>
>> 19.  The pile of the dead is hosed down with *powerful jets of water*
>
>Tauber reported that a rubber hose was ran from a water tap in the
>corridor to wash down the gas chamber. 

OK -- not the same thing.  I am thinking that Nyiszli or Kremer
exaggerated this text.
>
>> 20.  The dead are moved with a leather thong around the wrist, and then
>> are carried to one of four elevators, each with a capacity for 20 to 25
>> corpses.
>
>David Ole're drew a sketch of this in 1946. Dr. Bendel mentions "the load
>attached to their [the Sonderkommandos] wrists," implying the thongs. 

OK.  Makes sense.
>
>> [There was one elevator]
>
>Yes, _one_ elevator. Confirmed by Tauber, Dr. Bendel, and the Bauleitung
>construction drawings. 

Another exaggeration?

>
>> 21.  The blood of the victims mixed with the water in the gutters on
the
>> concrete floor.
>
>The "gutter" was in the furnace room. The Sonderkommandos washed it down
>to make dragging the corpses from the elevator to the furnaces easier. 

Did I transcribe wrong?  I don't think that is what he said.
>
>> 
>> 22.  The hair is removed from the corpses,  it was often used in
>> delayed action bombs 
>
>According to an SS memo the hair of (female) prisoners  was used to make
>hair-felt cloth and socks for U-boat crews. 

Yes, but I consider this fanciful.  Moreover, in most other scenarios,
either for the real showers or the fake showers, the hair is shaved
_first_.  Why they would do it this way when the hair is seriously soiled
and simply creates more work suggests another discrepancy to me.

>
>> 23.  Gold teeth are extracted from the corpses.
>
>This was described by Ho"ss and Tauber. Ole're made of sketch of this in
>1946. (The sketch also showed a Zyklon B introduction column.) Hilberg
>also documents that dental gold was shipped from Auschwitz to the
Econonic
>Ministry. 

Again, just listing the details.

>
>> 24.  The bodies are laid on a kind of pushcart three at a time. 

>> The heavy doors of the ovens open automatically ; the pushcart moved
into
>> a furnace heated to incandescence. 
>
>The "pushcart," (trolley) decribed by Tauber, was later abandoned for a
>"corpse stretcher." Tauber claimed that up to five or six bodies
>(typically 2 adults and the rest children) were sometimes charged per
>muffle. (Though he aslo claimed that up to 8 "musulmans" were charged per
>muffle- without the guards knowing -during air raids to attract attention
>by having a bigger fire ["candle"?] emerge from the chimney.)  Ho"ss
>claimed two and then three corspes in alternating charges. Tauber cites
>the temperature of the furnace being between 1,000C and 1,200C. The
>oeprating instructions for the Topf  double/triple-muffle furnace states
>that 1,100C was "white hot." 

OK -- I really need Tauber's testimony on this.  Other witnesses
corroborate?
>
>> 25.  The bodies are cremated in 20 minutes.
>
>Incineration times varied in accordance with the number of corpses
charged
>per muffle. Tauber relates about 30 minutes. Ho"ss claimed about 20
>minutes. 

Yes, and I consider this extremely optimistic.
>
>> 26.  Each crematorium had fifteen ovens, and there were four in all. 
>> Several thousand could be cremated in a single day.
>
>Fifteen _muffles_ (three per furnace) and  five _furnaces_ per Krema II
>and III each. This is confirmed by Tauber and the various Bauleitung
>drawings and memorandum between Topf and the Bauleitung. Estimates of
>outputs vary according to the assumed average muffle charge. The
>Bauletiung's estimate was 1,440 per day for Kremas II and III (two
corpses
>per muffle @ 30 minutes per charge). Ho"ss's 2-3 muffle charge would
yeild
>2,700 for Kremas II and III and 1,440 for Kremas IV and V. (Ho"ss,
>however, _also_ wrote that 2,000 were incinerated in Kremas II and III
per
>day, and 1,500 in Kremas IV and V.) So the combined total incineration
>capacity for _all_ the Kremas was perhaps somewhere between 7,000 to
8,000
>per day at best. Considering that Krema IV was diabled almost
immediately,
>and that Kremas II and V were down for repairs off and on, the output of
>the Kremas was probably much less. (Kremas II,III, and V, however, were
>on-line for Aktion Ho"ss in May-July of 1944.) 
>
>> [This is incorrect]
>
>Sounds like the nomenclature was confused. Or do you mean the "several
>thousand" is incorrect? 

No, I meant the number of furnaces.  The burning time is beyond me. 
Suffice to say that I doubt it.
>
>> 27.  Trucks took the ashes to the Vistula, where they were dumped into
its
>> *raging waters*.
>
>Ho"ss confirmed that the ashes were dumped into the Vistula River.
>
>> [The Vistula is fordable on foot much of the year at A-B.  It's winding
>> course does not indicate a high rate of flow]
>
>Does, this mean that the ashes weren't dumped in it? Perhaps Nyiszli was
>describing the dumping during a time when the Vistula _wasn't_ fordable?
>(Fordable _where_? The Vistula is also Poland's largest river.) 

I just read a survivor talking about fording the river.  I will post that
soon.  The Wisla is Poland's largest river -- but at AB it is only about
80 miles from its headwaters.  Check it out on a map.

[More Later]





From ehrlich606@aol.com Thu Jul  4 15:33:15 PDT 1996
Article: 48283 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Survivor Testimony from Lithuania
Date: 4 Jul 1996 16:10:49 -0400
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From: *Witnesses to the Holocaust* , Rhoda G. Lewin, ed.

Testimony of Hilda Kibort, nee Danziger, pp. 50-55

[Because of technical limits, I cannot post long extracts.  This is
interesting stuff.]

In June 1940 the Russians marched into Lithuania and the government
was overthrown [this is in Kovno].  Landowners and people who were in
business were now *undesirable elements.*  My first experience with people
being taken out of their homes in the middle of the night and sent away in
freight cars was under the Soviets.  The girl I roomed with at the
university, her parents and sister were taken.  We went the next afternoon
and saw trains for miles and miles, people being shipped to Siberia.

What she is describing here is a kind of cleansing by the Soviets of
Lithuanian nationalists and capitalists.  A year later the Germans arrive,
and then we get the mirror image ....

They came in the middle of the night and arrested all of the Jewish
men, including my father.  Unless one had an awful lot of money for
bribes, there was only one way to get someone out of jail, and that was if
he was absolutely needed to run a business or factory.

Hilda goes to speak to the commandant, and because she speaks German
without an accent, she gets five minutes. [This goes to the argument of
assimilation as a survival tool.]  Her father is released.

As long as we were strong and useful, we would survive.  Everybody
had to go to work except children under twelve and the elderly.  There
were workshops in the ghetto where they made earmuffs for the army...

In accordance with the Wannsee Minutes the Jews were exploited by the
Germans in support of the war effort. Labor exploitation is running up
against deliberate and immediate extermination.

November 5, 1943, was the day all the children were taken away. 
They brought in Romanian and Ukrainian SS to do it. .... Everybody was
absolutely shattered. 

That the children and elderly were regarded as unproductive is in accord
with the Wannsee Minutes.  I do not know specifically what happened to
these people, although that they would have been killed seems a likely
possibility.  So:  where were they sent, where were they killed, or were
they, or what?  Straight answers, and not rhetoric, would be welcome here.

On July 16, 1944, the rest of the ghettos were put on cattle
trains, with only what we could carry. 

The closure of the Eastern ghettoes appears to have happened in the face
of Soviet advances.  Operation Bagration, begun 6/21/44, tore a huge whole
in the German Eastern Front enveloping large areas in a kind of reverse of
Barbarossa in 1941.  Several of the Eastern ghettoes were evacuated in the
Summer of 1944.  According to conventionalists, this was to carry out the
program of extermination.  I disagree that it was so simple.

Hilda and her family is sent to Stutthof.  They are separated, stripped,
subjected to cavity searches, and so on.  She and the rest are rushed
through a shower.  This is typical for all Jews and everyone else when
entering the Nazi KZ system.  Probably the Soviet GULAG had similar
procedures.  The point is that those exploited for labor and those gassed
follow exactly the same procedures, until they get in the showers.

My mother and sister and I had numbers in the 54,000s.  People from
all over Europe -- Hungarian women and German, Czechoslovakia, Belgium,
you name it -- they were there.  Children, of course, were not there.  
When families came with children, the children were taken right away.

Once more, bearing in mind that there were hundreds if not thousands of
such labor exploitation camps, such labor exploitation is not consistent,
in my view, with a policy of immediate extermination.  Now gain, the
appearance is that survival is contingent on usefulness.  But what is
happening to the children?  Rhetoric free responses welcomed.

HIlda and her mother and sister work at Stutthof digging anti-tank
ditches.  In January, 1945, there is another selection:

The strong women that could still work would be marched out, and
the sick, those who couldn't walk or who had bent backs, or who were just
skeletons and too weak to work, would be left behind. 

Hilda's mother is selected as unfit for labor, so, Hilda and her sister
stay with her.  The two German quards for about 90 women recruit some
Polish guards and lead the women out on a march.  They are then told to
run into the woods.  They are shot at by the German and Polish guards.  In
the process, Hilda's mother is shot dead.  The rest hide out in the
forest.  The next day, the Soviets arrive.  The Russians claim that they
must have been collaborators, because they survived.  A Jewish doctor who
meets them at the Vilna train station warns them not to stay, because the
locals will kill them. Hilda and her sister stay in Vilna, anyway.

In October, '45 we heard our brother and father had also survived. 
To get out of the Soviet Union was impossible then, just as it is now. 
But the Zionist underground managed to get us documents that we were
Polish citizens, and in 1946 we were allowed to *return* to Poland.  Then
we crossed the mountains on foot into Czechoslovakia and took a train to
Germany.

There are hundreds and probably thousands of such testimonies available
and everyone should read them.  I consider testimonies like this prima
facie evidence of the reality of the Holocaust, but I also know that I
will be berated for saying so because there isn't enough stress on
deliberate extermination and/or gas chambers.

I consider such assaults trivial and small minded.  The degree of
depersonalization, privation, suffering and disorientation suffered by
Hilda and her family is unbelievable, and unbelievably cruel.  To be sure,
it was a fate suffered by many people of many nationalities, but again,
when it was over, there was no Jewish community to return to. That is the
difference.




  





From ehrlich606@aol.com Fri Jul  5 06:39:15 PDT 1996
Article: 48410 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: I think Germans have an evil gene.
Date: 4 Jul 1996 16:47:55 -0400
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In article <4rg669$p7h@news.ios.com>, Mary Kravits 
writes:

>
>
> You started two world wars and still you claim to be human. Your people 
>are barbaric and should be caged like the animals you are. Because of 
>your evil you should be made to serve man as slaves for a thousand 
>years,Jews should get first crack.
>
>
>

Are you trying to get in good with Nizkor with silly flame bait like this?


From ehrlich606@aol.com Fri Jul  5 10:03:26 PDT 1996
Article: 48434 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Return of the Prodigal Poster  - Faustian Follies?
Date: 4 Jul 1996 22:01:45 -0400
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In article ,
jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) writes:

>[etc.]
>
>> Who said I was bitter?  Your co-web mistress indicated the means of
>> verifying my identity
>
>Um, "mistress"?
>
>That's awfully damn insulting, as I expect you know, since Giwer has
>stated repeatedly that the woman in question only has her job by virtue
>of bedding a couple of other people (me, for one).  You've managed to
>pointedly and, perhaps you think cleverly, underscore that insult.
>I'm afraid I'm not amused.
>
>I expect crap like that from Giwer -- he's only trolling after all --
>but I didn't expect it from you, Ehrlich.

Jamie, this is totally ridiculous.  I am insinuating nothing of the kind,
in this by now week old post.  The fact is:  you, a male, are a
*Co-webmaster*.  Hilary, a female, is the same thing.  To _me_ to call a
female a *Co-webmaster* violates common sense gender titles.  That is why
I called her *Co-webmistress.*  Nothing more.

I think we are getting pretty bad if we start suggesting things about each
other's private lives.  I agree that it should stop.  Therefore, Matt
should stop making remarks about Hilary's private life, and all the rest
of you can stop making cracks about Matt's.

I find it hard to believe that you would see an insult in *co-webmistress*
but so be it.  Are you sure you are just not trying to start something?



From ehrlich606@aol.com Fri Jul  5 11:16:30 PDT 1996
Article: 48456 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Neither Scholar nor Gentleman (Re: The Return of the Prodigal Poster  - F...
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In article <4rij7u$7fb@atlas.uniserve.com>, hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary
Ostrov) writes:

>Subject:	Neither Scholar nor Gentleman (Re: The Return of the
Prodigal Poster
>- Faustia
>From:	hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
>Date:	Fri, 05 Jul 1996 08:21:51 GMT
>
>In <4rht29$g6r@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
>wrote:
>
>>In article ,
>>jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) writes:
>
>>>[etc.]
>>>
>>>> Who said I was bitter?  Your co-web mistress indicated the means of
>>>> verifying my identity
>>>
>>>Um, "mistress"?
>>>
>>>That's awfully damn insulting, as I expect you know, since Giwer has
>>>stated repeatedly that the woman in question only has her job by virtue
>>>of bedding a couple of other people (me, for one).  You've managed to
>>>pointedly and, perhaps you think cleverly, underscore that insult.
>>>I'm afraid I'm not amused.
>>>
>>>I expect crap like that from Giwer -- he's only trolling after all --
>>>but I didn't expect it from you, Ehrlich.
>
>>Jamie, this is totally ridiculous.  I am insinuating nothing of the
kind,
>>in this by now week old post.  The fact is:  you, a male, are a
>>*Co-webmaster*.  Hilary, a female, is the same thing.  To _me_ to call a
>>female a *Co-webmaster* violates common sense gender titles.  That is
why
>>I called her *Co-webmistress.*  Nothing more.
>
>My how noble!  I suppose, in the interest of "common sense gender
>titles" Mr. Ehrlich would also have me change my resume to reflect
>that my degree is not a B.A. (Batchelor of Arts) but an S. A.
>(Spinster of Arts) and that had I chosen to do graduate work, I would
>have attained a Mistress of Arts degree, not a Master of Arts.
>
>Aside from the fact that the correct term - AND THAT WHICH I CHOOSE TO
>USE  - is Co-Webmaster, the fact is, Mr. Ehrlich (if you scroll back
>to the top of this message, you will see for yourself ) you did _not_
>call me a 'Co-webmistress'.  Your _specific words_ were:
>
>	Your co-web mistress indicated the means of verifying my identity
>
>Shall I spell it out for you?  Not *Co-webmistress* but *co-web
>mistress*  Now let me guess your next response:  are now going to
>complain that I'm berating you for your *typos*?  It won't wash! God
>forbid that Mr. Ehrlich should accept responsibility for his _own_
>words and apologize! 
>

You know, it is one thing to expect someone to apologize -- if they feel
like it -- for saying something personal, insulting, and cruel.  It is
another thing to expect someone to apologize for saying something
innocuous that is _perceived_ as personal, insulting, and cruel.  It is
still another thing to expect someone to apologize for something that is
by itself innocuous but which other claim that the _intent_ was personal,
insulting, and cruel.

I know what was in my mind when I wrote the above passage -- whether Co
web mistress or co-webmistress -- and the last thing I was thinking about
was Hilary's personal life.  How many times do I have to say that?  But
people are going to believe what they want to believe.

I am reminded of an exchange a couple of weeks ago when I made a remark --
under a Hilary quote from someone else -- about the Nizkor Bunny keeps
going, and going and going.  I was thinking about repetitive posts from
Nizkor and Nizkor affiliates.  But of course I was accused of something
else.  Naturally!

With regard to these comments, I cannot well apologize for intentions I
did not have.  The fact that the charges are repeated over and over is not
going to make that *intention* magically appear.

So now we look at the comments in light of the fact that they have been
_perceived_ as  personal, insulting, and cruel.  Well, in normal life, if
I say something and someone gets indignant, I say, wow, didn't mean to
offend you.  The rhetoric on this board, however, is hardly normal.  But,
OK, if you think *Co-web mistress* or *Co-webmistress * is insulting, then
I am sorry you are insulted.  I wasn't trying to insult you.

Now, my position is that I didn't mean to say something hurtful or cruel. 
Period.  If you want to think that, there is nothing I can do.  But while
we are on the subject, I will note that many people on this board have
made repeated personal comments about Matt, referencing his alleged mental
health, his intelligence, his alleged drinking habits, and on and on and
on.  Anybody going to apologize for that?

What usually transpires is that someone will be decent -- if memory
serves, it is usually Mike Stein -- who will step forward and be nice. 
But such interjections are few and far between.



From ehrlich606@aol.com Fri Jul  5 16:52:54 PDT 1996
Article: 48481 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: I think Germans have an evil gene.
Date: 5 Jul 1996 10:24:30 -0400
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In article ,
jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) writes:

>
>A troll wrote:
>
>> [Germans] are barbaric and should be caged like the animals you are.
>[etc.]
>
>Ehrlich606 insinuates that Nizkor is in favor of anti-German nonsense,
>using a question mark:
>
>> Are you trying to get in good with Nizkor with silly flame bait
>> like this?
>
>This is the same Ehrlich606 who wrote, in June:
>
>> But this is
>> a typical tactic, to make insinuations in front of a question mark,
>> and then to pretend outrage when accused of dishonesty.
>
>I suppose it would be outrageous if I accused you of dishonesty,
>Ehrlich, and asked you if you had any evidence whatsoever that Nizkor
>is anti-German.

No, I don't have any evidence that you are anti-German, Jamie, and in fact
I recall explicit remarks by you to the contrary.  OTOH, there have been
people (like the above troll) who have made remarks over time that I
considered anti-German, and people from Nizkor, and/or who align
themselves with Nizkor, have not brought them up as I think they should
have.

In this case, the troll made these comments and there was no response.  So
I deliberately worded my response in such a way as to provoke a Nizkor
response.  Now that you have responded, I apologize to you -- personally
-- as well as to Nizkor as an entity, for suggesting otherwise.  And I
compliment you for implying that anti-Germanism is unacceptable, just as I
have on several occasions made it clear that -- whatever my willingness to
pursue revisionist leads -- I consider anti-semitism unacceptable.

  


From ehrlich606@aol.com Sat Jul  6 08:00:40 PDT 1996
Article: 48513 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Actions of the Righteous and Who Needed Zyclone B
Date: 5 Jul 1996 21:29:21 -0400
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In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
(Mark Van Alstine) writes:

>> 
>> Excepting that here you are running up against something Jamie posted
in
>> response to my precis of a book on Fritz Haber, namely, that the
warning
>> agent's removal was not a factor -- in his opinion -- as to lethal
usage. 
>> Furthermore it also appears that Zyklon without warning stuff was part
of
>> the reason it was chosen (story of the guy (Breitweiser?) who suddenly
>> passed out.)  
>
>I'm not familiar with Haber, which book was this? 

Some weeks ago I posted a precis of a bio of this German Jewish Nobelist. 
There were some interesting details in it. Called *Fritz Haber: German,
Jew, Nobel Prize Winner*  Zyklon came up in the concluding paragraphs.  
>
>Also, I seem to recall an account where an SS Man entered a fumigated
(but
>not fully aired) barracks and was _immediately_ rendered unconcious, only
>surviving by the chance that he fell _out_ (down the stairs?) into fresh
>air, I don't recall if this was Breitweiseror or not and if it was stated
>that the lacrymal was present or not. Would you (or Mr. McCarthy?) care
to
>previde a more precise account of this? In particular, around what date
>did this happen?  

You would have to go to Giwer for this one.  It is not the same as going
to Canossa.

>
>> Finally, the last I heard from Pressac's book 95% of the
>> Zyklon was used for disinfestation, which implies that a lot of
>> non-lachrymal Zyklon was used for that purpose as well.
>
>Pressac's comments regarding 95% of Zyklon B at Auschwitz being used for
>disenfestation purposes, if I remember correctly, didn't touch on whether
>or not the lachrymal was present or not. 
>
>However, according to NI-9912, the "Degesch Manual," the inclusion of the
>lacrymal was integral to Zyklon. This would be understandable, after all,
>considering that Zyklon was _origionally_ intended for legitimate pest
>control purposes where the lachrymal was a safety measure (and also
>stimulated the respiration of insects). 
>
>One could surmise that this would mean that the vast majority of the
>Zyklon used  at Auschwitz for pest control had the lacrymal. Where this
>issue becomes murky is _specifically_ in regards to the period of
>July-October of 1942, when a typhus epidemic was raging through the camp.

>
>Again, according to Pressac (_Technique_,p.188), on July 23 and 29, 1942,
>two trucks were authorized to go to Dessau to pick up Zyklon for
>_disinfection_ purposes. Setting aside any homicidal interprations of the
>word "disinfection" and taking it at face value- namely that the Zyklon
>_was_ to be used for legitimate disinfestaion purposes, one can assume
>that the lacrymal was present in the Zyklon. 
>
>However, the SS at Auscwhitz soon ran out of Zyklon and needed more to
>fight the typhus epidemic. To _hide_ their failure to bring the epidemic
>under control the SS requested more Zyklon with the ruse that it was for
>_special treatment_. One _cannot_ ignore the homicidal implications of
>this term.  Clearly, the SS wished it believed that the Zyklon was meant
>for the extermination of Jews.

Not to say it was not used homicidally, but to argue that special
treatment would be known by Degesch as a term for Jewish extermination
widens the SS conspiracy considerably, don't you think?  BTW, I think the
guy at Degesch was later hanged precisely because it was very unsafe to
produce this stuff without the warning stuff.  I think.

I wonder if cost had anything to do with it?

 On August 26, 1942, another truck was sent
>to Dessau to pick up the Zyklon. Given that the SS had _indicated_ in
>their request for the Zyklon was for _special treatment_, it is quite
>probable that the lacrymal was _not_ present in it even though the SS
used
>it for disinfestation purposes. On October 2, 1942, the ruse was
repeated,
>this time citing that "material for the resettlement of Jews" was needed.
>Then on January 7, 1943, after the epidemic was brought under control (it
>was _endemic_ at that point) the SS requested "disenfestation material"
>(Zyklon).   
>
>What all this means is that during this _particular_ period of the typhus
>epidemic there was very likely Zyklon _without_ the lacrymal being used
>for disenfestation purposes. It was, I would argue, an aberration brought
>on by extenuating circumstances- namely the typhus epidemic caused by the
>disasterous camp conditions, the inability of the SS to control it right
>away, and the desire and duplicity of the SS officials at Auschwitz in
>attempting to conceal from their superiors their failure to deal with it
>promptly. 
>
>It would be interesting to know when the incident with Breitweiser(?)
>occured. Especially if it happened during the July-October 1942 time
>frame, yes? 

Again, Matt indicates that the story -- which is on Nizkor somewhere --
stems from 1941.  Hence, his conclusion that there are two stories.  Mike
Stein had some input on this too.

>
>> The question comes down to whether non-lachrymal Zyklon B was a
*criminal
>> trace.*  I just don't know.  I doubt that the camp system would have
kept
>> two varieties of it on hand, one for homicides, and one for pest
control,
>> but I would be happy to hear the evidence.
>
>Well, as already noted above, the "Degesch Manual" explicitly stated that
>Zyklon contained a lacrymal. However, an invoice from DEGESCH to Gerstein
>regarding a shipment (195 kg) of Zyklon B to Auschwitz dated February 14,
>1944, explicty stated that the Zyklon B shipped contained no lacrymal.
>Furthermore, on page 17 of _Technique_, Photo 13 shows a yellow label
from
>a 500g can of Zyklon B that has an added white (errata) label that says:
>"Vorschicht, ohne Warnstoff!" ("take care, no warning agent!"), thus
>indictating that the can of Zyklon B it came off of did not contain the
>(typically) integral lacrymal.
>

Vorsicht!  And btw, why is it so hard to get a hold of Pressac's tome?

>Given all this I would suggest that yes, Zyklon B without the lacrymal is
>a "criminal trace" - not the most important, but still one of many
>indicators of homicidal intent by the Nazis -as it serves no clear
>_legitimate_ purpose to remove it, and adds considerable risks to the
>non-homicidal pest control use it was _origionally_ designed for. 

I would agree on this, and for many years I assumed the lack of lachrymal
was fairly decisive.
>
>BTW, You might also wish to refer to:
>
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?camps/auschwitz/cyanide/indicator
>
>Mark
>
>
Thanks for a reasoned response.



From ehrlich606@aol.com Sat Jul  6 08:00:41 PDT 1996
Article: 48560 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nyiszli's Memoirs of Auschwitz
Date: 6 Jul 1996 00:45:23 -0400
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In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
(Mark Van Alstine) writes:

>
>Aside from providing a brief synopsis of _Auschwitz: a doctor's
eyewitness
>account_, and as importantly offering me an opportunity to demonstrate
>that by and large Dr. Nyiszli's account is corroborated by several other
>ewyewitnesses (both Sonderkommandos and SS), what was your point here? 
>
>Mark
>

Because I would like to nail down these things once and for all so we can
stop spending so much time on it.

[NOTE:  This is a continuation of a response to Mark's response.  So far,
some basic facts concerning the extermination procedure at A-B have been
rehearsed.  The rest of Dr. Nyiszli's book concerns other aspects of the
situation there.]

[Cut to the end of the section on gassing]

>
>In article <4r25vq$f0e@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
>(Ehrlich606) wrote:
>
>> The Memoirs of Dr. Nyiszli *Auschwitz* (Arcade, 1993)
>
>> THE SHOOTING (Chapter 9, pp. 66-68)
>> 
>> One night Dr. Nyiszli wakes up to hear shooting.  He goes into a room
and
>> finds 70 naked women, not all of them dead, aprawled in a bloody mess
on
>> the floor.  Each of whom has been shot in the back of the head.  A
>> sonderkommando assures him that every night trucks bring 70 more to be
>> murdered the same way.
>
>Tauber describes something similar when he was working in Krema I. Some
30
>to 40 people were brought into the morgue of Krema I a couple times a
week
>and shot there. Braod aslo wrote about a mass shooting of over 200 people
>that took place at Krema I. Ho"ss wrote that small transports of Russians
>were constantly being shot in the gravel pits at the Monopol factory or
in
>Block 11. 

There were shootings no doubt.  But again I consider the above seriously
exaggerated.
>
>> THE MASS BURNING (Chapter 13, pp. 84-89)
>> 
>> 5,000 people are waiting to be burned in open pits.  They are led into
a
>> house in groups of 400, forced to strip while beaten, and then are
chased
>> along a gauntlet of SS to a pit.  The pit is 50 yards long, six yards
>> wide, and three yards deep.  SS men line the pit.  There were two such
>> *pyres.*
>
>Tauber describes something similar (though in less detail) happening
>during Akyion Ho"ss. He claimed that there were so many people at times
>that the deportees that could not be immediately gassed were shot by the
>incineration pits instead. According to Tauber, Hauptscharfu"hrer Otto
>Moll (Molle according to Nyizli) threw people in the incineration pits
>alive to burn to death. 

According to USSR-8, the Soviet State Commission on Auschwitz, introduced
at the IMT, the pits were of the dimension cited by Nyiszli.  The same
document specifies that a channel was cut in the bottom of the pit for air
supply. [Not for fat fuel]  USSR-8 also calculates a death toll at
Auschwitz Birkenau in excess of 4 million, clearly calculated on the basis
on the assumed incineration capacities of the crematoria.  So, that is the
source of that particular error.  Tauber testified for the Soviet State
Commission.  His subsequent testimony or testimonies is unknown to me.
>
>> 
>> When the two pyres were operating simultaneously, their output
>> varied from 5 to 6 thousand dead a day.  Slightly better than the
>> crematoriums. 
>
>According to Hilbert (_Destruction_) there were 8 incineration ditches (4
>yd x 60 yds). Braham (_Anatomy_) claims there were 9 incineration ditches
>( 8 m x 40/50 m x 2 m). According to Piper (_Anatomy_)  The capacity all
>the incineration pits was about 10,000 per day (5,000 for the pits behind
>Krema V and 5,000 for the pits near bunker 2). 

Yes, the only problem with this is I have seen the CIA booklet of aerial
Auschwitz photos and the only one that has smoke in it is a single fire
that does not have the dimensions discussed.

>
>> The victims are dragged to the edge of the pit, shot in the back of the
>> head, and thrown in.  
>
>Yes. Tauber relates similar atrocities. 

Again, this is just the process as described.
>
>> 
>> [There is no mention of fuel, or fat collection.]
>
>Perhaps he wasn't aware of it? After all, he was rather stunned by the
>whole brutal scene, yes? Ho"ss mentioned it though. (Affidavit by Ho"ss,
>March 14, 1946, NO-1210.) 

Consult USSR-8, above.
>
>> FAMILY CAMP  (Chapter 14, pp. 90-93)
>> 
>> One day the entire family camp, intact families of German Jews from
>> Theresienstadt, are gassed together.  Mengele signs an order that these
>> 12,000 people, who have been at Birkenau 2 years, are liquidated to
>> prevent the spread of typhus.
>
>The "family camp' was liquidated on July 7 (3,000) and July 11 (4,000),
>1944. (_Auschwitz Chronicle_). It was eliminated because Eichmann no
>longer needed it for his anti-atrocity propaganda. 

Actually, this goes back to the postcard business, which is claimed to
have been a scam, as well as the fact that the family camp had three
groupings (I believe) each with six months in A-B and then .... gassed? 
Even so, there is the fact that each time the Family Camp was emptied, the
group was culled for laborers.

Now, there are three things here.  If the postcards were a scam, that
doesn't explain why there were Jews in Russia from the Old Reich. (consult
NO-1624).  If they were in Russia the assumption naturally is that the
were shot, but not gassed.  Survivor accounts do tend to suggest that --
once in the German KZ custody -- you were not goinog to be just turned
loose.  Witness arbitrary shootings of survivors on foot, or the burning
at Gardelegen, etc.  _Perhaps_ things were a bit different in Russia but
there is not any documentation of a positive nature as to what happened to
the children and elderly that I know of.  That doesn't mean it doesn't
exist.

Second point:  if the postcards and all the rest was part of an intricate
scam, then how can very large numbers of Germans be viewed as *willing
executioners?*  In other words, if a lot of Germans were involved in
deporting Jews, and they thought, in fact, that they were deporting Jews,
that is qualitatively different than national cooperation in mass murder. 
Unless you want to say that population transfers are, in principle,
immoral.

Third point:  Mengele signs an order to liquidate the Family Camp.  Does
this order survive?  And why do you say that there was no need to continue
the subterfuge?

>
>> [This is the source of Pressac's thesis, I believe]
>
>Nope. Nyiszli didn't arrive at Auscwhitz until 1944. The typhus epidemic
>Pressac talks about was in 1942.

You are missing the point here.  Nyiszli is arguing that the gassings took
place to control epidemics.  _That_ is Pressac's thesis for the
development of gassing full scale.

> 
>> DEFINITION OF ZYKLON (Chapter 18, p. 111)
>> 
>> In a footnote, it is asserted that the name *Cyclone* comes from the
>> chemical composition of _Cy_anide, _c_h_lo_rine, and _n_itrogen. 
>> According to Dr. Nyiszli, there were two types of Zykon: A and B. 
>> Type A was a disinfectant, Type B was used to exterminate
millions.
>> (translator’s note).
>> 
>> [This is the source of Hilberg's now famous footnote]
>
>Really? What "famous footnote" of Hilberg's might this be? 

The footnote put out by Richard Green that Zyklon B was unique in the
Zyklon series because it was used to kill human beings.

I consider the above footnote, by Kremer, but referencing Nyiszli, to be
utterly fanciful.
He is looking at *Cyclon* and deriving a folk etymology.
>
>> 
>> AIR RAID SHELTER (Chapter 22, p. 128f)
>> 
>> One night there is an air raid.  Dr. Nyiszli, the Sonderkommando, and
the
>> SS all take shelter in a gas chamber.  Dr. Nyiszli is reminded of the
time
>> that 400 men of the Sonderkommando were locked in a regular delousing
>> chamber and gassed.
>> 
>> [Matt Giwer was right]
>
>No. 

[Tons of Giwer abuse snipped]

Giwer said that Krema II was a bomb shelter, and on at least one occasion
it was.

>
>> DESTRUCTION OF GYPSIES  (Chapter 23, p. 131)
>> 
>> One day the 4,500 Gypsies in the Gypsy camp are exterminated.  They are
>> given bread and salami so they will think they are being sent to
another
>> camp.  
>
>According to the _Auschwitz Chronicle_ this happened on August 2, 1944,
>and involved 2,897 in the Gypsy camp. (Sorry, no idea about the salamis.)

>
Right.  But this is, IMHO, embroidery.  Moreover, the men who were away
>from  the camp had obviously been selected for work.

>> The chimneys light up the camp with a *sinister glow* as the
>> chimneys shoot flames skyward.  (BTW, smoking and flaming chimneys and
>> pyres are a common observation in the text, e.g., p. 142)
>
>It's called a "candle." It seems that this can happen when the
crematorium
>furnace(s) are overloaded.

Right -- according to Mike Stein's unofficial research on the subject. 
The problem is that I know of none of the aerial recon photos of AB that
show this smoking or flaming chimneys.  Therefore I conclude another
exaggeration.
>

[snip comments about Gypsy massacre, at variance with Dr. Nyiszli]

>
>> CLOSING  REMARKS
>> 
>> There is much else of note.  Dr. Nyiszli finds his wife and daughter
from
>> whom he was originally separated.  He coaxes them to make a selection
for
>> a convoy to leave the camp.   Dr. Mengele orders him to cook two bodies
>> for the skeletons, Polish prisoners eat them.  Prisoners are killed
with
>> phosphorous bombs, and flame throwers.  On November 17, 1944,
subsequent
>> to the gassing of the Lodz (Litzmannstadt) ghetto, 70,000, the order
was
>> announced over the radio that it was forbidden to kill any more
prisoners.
>> (p. 190).

This is the time to ask when it was decided to stop killing people,
assuming that such an order was ever given.  That it would have been
announced over the radio strikes me as hard to believe, although
Nyiszli/Kremer is not exactly clear how wide the span of this radio.


OK -- Nysizli's memoirs are important because they match up well with
USSR-8, the Soviet Commission on Auschwitz, as well as testimony of Tauber
(who testified thereat), and also -- to a slight extent -- the memoirs of
Hoess.

Therefore, whatever the impeachability of Nyiszli, it has a connection
with the USSR commission and Tauber which means that it is one of the
earliest articulations of what was going on at Auschwitz.

Noting however that Nyiszli contains numerous errors of dimension that are
clearly wrong, numerous claims that appear exaggerated, and numerous
claims with regards to pits and cremation capacities which correlate with
USSR-8 but not with existing scholarship in this field, I conclude that
the text should be used with extreme care and that, when so doing, it's
affinity to the Soviet State Commission and its errors should be clearly
stated.

In addition, if we are going to use Nyiszli, Tauber, and USSR-8 as base
documents, then testimony that contradicts the major assertions of these
three should be considered suspect.  Finally, we should recognize that the
death tolls for at least Nyiszli and USSR-8 are totally imaginary.


 


From ehrlich606@aol.com Sat Jul  6 08:00:42 PDT 1996
Article: 48591 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Perry Broad Testifies About Auschwitz
Date: 5 Jul 1996 16:54:03 -0400
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Subject:	Perry Broad Testifies About Auschwitz
From:	dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Date:	Fri, 5 Jul 1996 19:44:11 GMT


Testimony of SS-Unterscharfuehrer Pery Broad, describing gassing in
Krema I in Auschwitz
[Quoted in "KL Auschwitz as Seen by the SS", p. 176]
-------------------------------------------------------------
 ... The "disinfectors" were at work. One of them was SS-Unterscharfuehrer
Teuer, decorated with the Cross of War Merit. With a chisel and a
hammer they opened a few innocuously looking tins which bore the
inscription "Cyclon, to be used against vermin. Attention, poison!
to be opened by trained personnel only!". The tins were filled to
the brim with blue granules the size of peas. Immediately after
opening the tins, their contents was thrown into the holes which
were then quickly covered. Meanwhile Grabner gave a sign to the driver
of a lorry, which had stopped close to the crematorium. The driver
started the motor and its deafening noise was louder than the
death cries of the hundreds of people inside, being gassed to death.

[The above is Keren's post.  *blue granules the size of peas* contradicts
Nyiszli's testimony of *mauve granulated substance*.  It also contradicts
the B&W photo in *Death Dealer* which shows polygonal cat litter sized
pellets.  Finally *the size of peas* implies spheres -- it does not imply
cubes, therefore, no ERCO.]



From ehrlich606@aol.com Sat Jul  6 08:00:43 PDT 1996
Article: 48606 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Actions of the Righteous and Who Needed Zyclone B
Date: 6 Jul 1996 02:55:24 -0400
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In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
(Mark Van Alstine) writes:

>> 
>> Excepting that here you are running up against something Jamie posted
in
>> response to my precis of a book on Fritz Haber, namely, that the
warning
>> agent's removal was not a factor -- in his opinion -- as to lethal
usage. 
>> Furthermore it also appears that Zyklon without warning stuff was part
of
>> the reason it was chosen (story of the guy (Breitweiser?) who suddenly
>> passed out.)  
>
>I'm not familiar with Haber, which book was this? 

Some weeks ago I posted a precis of a bio of this German Jewish Nobelist. 
There were some interesting details in it. Called *Fritz Haber: German,
Jew, Nobel Prize Winner*  Zyklon came up in the concluding paragraphs.  
>
>Also, I seem to recall an account where an SS Man entered a fumigated
(but
>not fully aired) barracks and was _immediately_ rendered unconcious, only
>surviving by the chance that he fell _out_ (down the stairs?) into fresh
>air, I don't recall if this was Breitweiseror or not and if it was stated
>that the lacrymal was present or not. Would you (or Mr. McCarthy?) care
to
>previde a more precise account of this? In particular, around what date
>did this happen?  

You would have to go to Giwer for this one.  It is not the same as going
to Canossa.

>
>> Finally, the last I heard from Pressac's book 95% of the
>> Zyklon was used for disinfestation, which implies that a lot of
>> non-lachrymal Zyklon was used for that purpose as well.
>
>Pressac's comments regarding 95% of Zyklon B at Auschwitz being used for
>disenfestation purposes, if I remember correctly, didn't touch on whether
>or not the lachrymal was present or not. 
>
>However, according to NI-9912, the "Degesch Manual," the inclusion of the
>lacrymal was integral to Zyklon. This would be understandable, after all,
>considering that Zyklon was _origionally_ intended for legitimate pest
>control purposes where the lachrymal was a safety measure (and also
>stimulated the respiration of insects). 
>
>One could surmise that this would mean that the vast majority of the
>Zyklon used  at Auschwitz for pest control had the lacrymal. Where this
>issue becomes murky is _specifically_ in regards to the period of
>July-October of 1942, when a typhus epidemic was raging through the camp.

>
>Again, according to Pressac (_Technique_,p.188), on July 23 and 29, 1942,
>two trucks were authorized to go to Dessau to pick up Zyklon for
>_disinfection_ purposes. Setting aside any homicidal interprations of the
>word "disinfection" and taking it at face value- namely that the Zyklon
>_was_ to be used for legitimate disinfestaion purposes, one can assume
>that the lacrymal was present in the Zyklon. 
>
>However, the SS at Auscwhitz soon ran out of Zyklon and needed more to
>fight the typhus epidemic. To _hide_ their failure to bring the epidemic
>under control the SS requested more Zyklon with the ruse that it was for
>_special treatment_. One _cannot_ ignore the homicidal implications of
>this term.  Clearly, the SS wished it believed that the Zyklon was meant
>for the extermination of Jews.

Not to say it was not used homicidally, but to argue that special
treatment would be known by Degesch as a term for Jewish extermination
widens the SS conspiracy considerably, don't you think?  BTW, I think the
guy at Degesch was later hanged precisely because it was very unsafe to
produce this stuff without the warning stuff.  I think.

I wonder if cost had anything to do with it?

 On August 26, 1942, another truck was sent
>to Dessau to pick up the Zyklon. Given that the SS had _indicated_ in
>their request for the Zyklon was for _special treatment_, it is quite
>probable that the lacrymal was _not_ present in it even though the SS
used
>it for disinfestation purposes. On October 2, 1942, the ruse was
repeated,
>this time citing that "material for the resettlement of Jews" was needed.
>Then on January 7, 1943, after the epidemic was brought under control (it
>was _endemic_ at that point) the SS requested "disenfestation material"
>(Zyklon).   
>
>What all this means is that during this _particular_ period of the typhus
>epidemic there was very likely Zyklon _without_ the lacrymal being used
>for disenfestation purposes. It was, I would argue, an aberration brought
>on by extenuating circumstances- namely the typhus epidemic caused by the
>disasterous camp conditions, the inability of the SS to control it right
>away, and the desire and duplicity of the SS officials at Auschwitz in
>attempting to conceal from their superiors their failure to deal with it
>promptly. 
>
>It would be interesting to know when the incident with Breitweiser(?)
>occured. Especially if it happened during the July-October 1942 time
>frame, yes? 

Again, Matt indicates that the story -- which is on Nizkor somewhere --
stems from 1941.  Hence, his conclusion that there are two stories.  Mike
Stein had some input on this too.

>
>> The question comes down to whether non-lachrymal Zyklon B was a
*criminal
>> trace.*  I just don't know.  I doubt that the camp system would have
kept
>> two varieties of it on hand, one for homicides, and one for pest
control,
>> but I would be happy to hear the evidence.
>
>Well, as already noted above, the "Degesch Manual" explicitly stated that
>Zyklon contained a lacrymal. However, an invoice from DEGESCH to Gerstein
>regarding a shipment (195 kg) of Zyklon B to Auschwitz dated February 14,
>1944, explicty stated that the Zyklon B shipped contained no lacrymal.
>Furthermore, on page 17 of _Technique_, Photo 13 shows a yellow label
from
>a 500g can of Zyklon B that has an added white (errata) label that says:
>"Vorschicht, ohne Warnstoff!" ("take care, no warning agent!"), thus
>indictating that the can of Zyklon B it came off of did not contain the
>(typically) integral lacrymal.
>

Vorsicht!  And btw, why is it so hard to get a hold of Pressac's tome?

>Given all this I would suggest that yes, Zyklon B without the lacrymal is
>a "criminal trace" - not the most important, but still one of many
>indicators of homicidal intent by the Nazis -as it serves no clear
>_legitimate_ purpose to remove it, and adds considerable risks to the
>non-homicidal pest control use it was _origionally_ designed for. 

I would agree on this, and for many years I assumed the lack of lachrymal
was fairly decisive.
>
>BTW, You might also wish to refer to:
>
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?camps/auschwitz/cyanide/indicator
>
>Mark
>
>
Thanks for a reasoned response.



From ehrlich606@aol.com Sat Jul  6 08:00:44 PDT 1996
Article: 48617 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Perry Broad Testifies About Auschwitz
Date: 6 Jul 1996 08:02:05 -0400
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In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
(Mark Van Alstine) writes:

>Subject:	Re: Perry Broad Testifies About Auschwitz
>From:	mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
>Date:	Fri, 05 Jul 1996 20:05:25 -0700
>
>In article <4rjvdb$64t@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
>(Ehrlich606) wrote:
>
>> Subject:        Perry Broad Testifies About Auschwitz
>> From:   dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>> Date:   Fri, 5 Jul 1996 19:44:11 GMT
>> 
>> 
>> Testimony of SS-Unterscharfuehrer Pery Broad, describing gassing in
>> Krema I in Auschwitz
>> [Quoted in "KL Auschwitz as Seen by the SS", p. 176]
>> -------------------------------------------------------------
>>  ... The "disinfectors" were at work. One of them was
SS-Unterscharfuehrer
>> Teuer, decorated with the Cross of War Merit. With a chisel and a
>> hammer they opened a few innocuously looking tins which bore the
>> inscription "Cyclon, to be used against vermin. Attention, poison!
>> to be opened by trained personnel only!". The tins were filled to
>> the brim with blue granules the size of peas. Immediately after
>> opening the tins, their contents was thrown into the holes which
>> were then quickly covered. Meanwhile Grabner gave a sign to the driver
>> of a lorry, which had stopped close to the crematorium. The driver
>> started the motor and its deafening noise was louder than the
>> death cries of the hundreds of people inside, being gassed to death.
>> 
>> [The above is Keren's post.  *blue granules the size of peas*
contradicts
>> Nyiszli's testimony of *mauve granulated substance*.  It also
contradicts
>> the B&W photo in *Death Dealer* which shows polygonal cat litter sized
>> pellets.  Finally *the size of peas* implies spheres -- it does not
imply
>> cubes, therefore, no ERCO.]
>
>Really, now... such grasping at (semantic) straws.  
>
>I would note that Broad did not say that Zyklon B had the _shape_ of
peas,
>or that it _looked_ like peas, or the granules were _round_. No, he
simply
>said  blue granules the _size_ of peas.  
>
>granule n. 1. a small grain 2. a small grainlike particle or spot;
>
>grain n.  3 a) a tiny, solid particle, as of salt or sand b) crystal or
>crystals collectively; also crystalization of esp. of sugar.
>
>Ergo, solid particles, as of salt or sand, looking like crystals that
were
>the size of peas.
>
>Now, looking at the photo in _Technique_ (p.15), which is the same as the
>photo in _Death Dealer_ but larger and of better quality, the _granules_
>of Zyklon B do indeed look _like_ crystals of rock salt. The granules
_do_
>appear to look like "cubes," imperfect cubes to be sure, but they look
>_like_ cubes the same way rock salt looks _like_ cubes. Ergo, ERCO. They
>also look about the _size_ of peas (or rock salt) which, after all, _are_
>small. It is, I'll admit, a somewhat subjective call as there is no scale
>information in the photo. No convient ruler or measuring tape, no hand,
in
>the picture to provide a better idea as to their exact size.
>
>But "cat litter?" How droll. That, as we all know, was the line of the
>Troll. Interesting how Ehrlich606 has fastened on to it now....  
>
>As to the color of Zyklon B? How far away did Nysizli say he was from the
>guard when he opened and poured the can of Zklon B into the introduction
>column? Oh, right, he didn't. Do you suppose he was standing right _next_
>to the guard- looking over his shoulder? I think not (no gas mask). He
>obviously was describing something seen from a (safe) distance. Much like
>Tauber, who saw a similar sight peeking out a window from inside the
>Krema, did. Very likely Nysizli was either still in the Krema (He starts
>the chapter by saying that he saw the transport arrive through the window
>of his room) or he was outside but near an entrance to the Krema. (It
>seems a bit odd, however, that the SS would let a Sonderkommdo doctor
>wander around _outside_ unsupervised _during_ a gassing.) 
>
>Oh, btw, Ehrlich606, what color was _spent_ Zyklon B?
>
>
I don't know the color of spent Zyklon. Do tell.

You have already, in the manner of a commentary on the Sententiae of Peter
Lombard, successfully argued that irregularly shaped polygonal flakes are
in fact cubes, and you have also successfully argued that pea-sized is
exactly the word one would use to describe such a polygon.



From ehrlich606@aol.com Sat Jul  6 08:00:45 PDT 1996
Article: 48618 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Fuchs im Bau"
Date: 5 Jul 1996 20:17:35 -0400
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Sailors have been doing this for centuries.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Sat Jul  6 12:40:43 PDT 1996
Article: 48646 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS SHUT DOWN
Date: 5 Jul 1996 22:50:46 -0400
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In article <4rj7ov$5sk@news-e2b.gnn.com>, Widmann@gnn.com (Richard
Widmann) writes:

>
>	The latest project to combat international censorship was the 
>posting of  Grundlagen zur Zeitgeschichte.  Grundlagen is a 
>collaboration by the world's leading revisionists featuring 
>scientific documentation which casts doubt on the traditional 
>holocaust story.  The editor of this volume was sentenced to 15 
>months imprisonment in Germany and a judge recently ruled (June 6, 
>1996) that all copies of this book be burned.
>
>

I think it is a pity that the plug was pulled and I hope that CODOH will
be able to re-establish itself before too long.  Recognizing that
Holocaust Revisionism and Denial are going to be viewed as offensive to
many, in my exposure to the site I have found that the materials on that
site are neither hate-provoking nor anti-semitic. [To be sure, my
familiarity with the site is not _total_.]  What is ironic is that I have
had e-mails with many people on this Board who are connected to and/or
philosophically aligned with Nizkor and we have referenced materials on
the CODOH website on several occasions. In other words, it has been a
source for both sides.  I think it is short-sighted and a pity that it has
been apparently censored.

I am also aghast at the above paragraph which recommends that all copies
of the book cited above be burned. Assuming that this is accurate, does no
one else see the analogy to the book burning practices of both the Third
Reich and the Stalinesque communist regimes?  This is very lamentable.



From ehrlich606@aol.com Sat Jul  6 12:40:44 PDT 1996
Article: 48694 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Actions of the Righteous and Who Needed Zyclone B
Date: 5 Jul 1996 14:40:05 -0400
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In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
(Mark Van Alstine) writes:

>
>Indeed Zyklon B was the only source for the homicidal agent that could be
>identified at Auschwitz. Tests of the remains of the homicidal gas
>chambers show evidence of HCN traces consistant with homicidal usage.
>Eyewitness testimonies clearly tell of Zyklon B being used to kill people
>in these homicidal gas chambers. DEGESCH invoices show that Zyklon B
>WITHOUT LACRYMAL was shipped from Dessua (one of two Zyklon plants) to
>Auschwitz. 
>
>This last point is quite interesting in that ALL Zyklon B used in pest
>control application had a lacrymal added to it for safety reasons. The
>Zyklon B used for homicidal purposes did not. 
>
>Mark

Excepting that here you are running up against something Jamie posted in
response to my precis of a book on Fritz Haber, namely, that the warning
agent's removal was not a factor -- in his opinion -- as to lethal usage. 
Furthermore it also appears that Zyklon without warning stuff was part of
the reason it was chosen (story of the guy (Breitweiser?) who suddenly
passed out.)  Finally, the last I heard from Pressac's book 95% of the
Zyklon was used for disinfestation, which implies that a lot of
non-lachrymal Zyklon was used for that purpose as well.

The question comes down to whether non-lachrymal Zyklon B was a *criminal
trace.*  I just don't know.  I doubt that the camp system would have kept
two varieties of it on hand, one for homicides, and one for pest control,
but I would be happy to hear the evidence.








From ehrlich606@aol.com Sat Jul  6 13:44:13 PDT 1996
Article: 48701 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionism Defined
Date: 6 Jul 1996 06:23:52 -0400
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In article <4rk1ov$74m@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, brlhagen@aol.com (Brlhagen)
writes:

>
>4 - Contrary to Holocaust Mythology there was no attempt by Nazis, or
>anyone else, to exterminate the Jews.  There was an attempt, largely
>successful in the areas controlled by the Axis, to expel the Jews from
>Europe.  It was done brutally, hatefully, without compensation, without
>any  legal nicety.  In the context of the 1990's it was a terrible
>undertaking.  In a different context, the context of European history
over
>the last two millennia, the expulsion of the Jews from this region or
that
>region was not uncommon.  Historically there seems to be something about
>the Jews that brings forth a plenitude of animosity on the part of people
>amongst whom they live.  
>
>

I thought you were summarizing Revisionism pretty well until you got to
this part.  (Not to say that I agree with everything claimed for
revisionists.)  But here you have a remark in the last sentence which I
have got to say is anti-semitic.  You say *something about Jews* that
brings forth a plenitude of animosity. Now, first of all, you are making a
collective judgment.  There has been no attempt to mitigate your judgment
by reference to anti-Jewish (Deicide) ideologies, or their (usually
unique) social position.  In short, you are creating a situation where
people will have a handle for *defining Jews out* and pulling another one
of these things again some day.

Any reevaluation of the Holocaust can only be done if it is made plain
that what we are discussing here are details and interpretations.  If it
is done for the sake of a hidden agenda, or for the sake of potentially
exclusionary comments like this, then you will never get off the ground. 
If you are interested in the historical facts then you should be willing
to let them fall where they may.  But if you are doing this to sneak in
collective remarks about Jews, or Germans, or anybody, then I submit that
you are no more interested in the truth than those who stifle dissent or
discussion on this topic by name calling, slander, harrassment, jail
terms, fire bombs, book burnings, or whatever.




From ehrlich606@aol.com Sat Jul  6 13:44:15 PDT 1996
Article: 48702 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MoreHolocaust Almanac BS - I.G. Farben removed 'indicator' from gas
Date: 6 Jul 1996 06:58:54 -0400
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In article <4rku75$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt
Giwer) writes:

>
>>   Borkin, Joseph. The Crime and Punishment of I.G. Farben. New York:
>>   The Free Press, 1978, and London: Macmillan Publishing Company.
>
>	But of course we know that NO ONE was EVER deceived by the lack of
the
>irritant.  We know in fac that they saw clouds of poison gas arise and
>the ran from it, screaming so to speak.  
>
>	We know there is no basis in any "testimony" for any claim of the
lack
>on an "irritant" making the slightest difference.  
>
>
>

Just a couple of words.  The first point is that Jamie keyed the lack of
warning stuff to some other reasons.  The second point is that the above
passage contains many speculative passages.  Do I need to spell them out? 
Third point lack of irritant is no proof of extermination, per se,
especially since most of the people gassed were gassed with  Diesel
exhaust.  Only 16% of the Holocaust victims were killed with non-irritant
Zyklon, and according to Pressac, 95% of this type of Zyklon was used for
non homicidal purposes.  HIlberg's original comment viz. *very little was
used for fumigation* has been confuted, and not by revisionists.



From ehrlich606@aol.com Sat Jul  6 14:27:44 PDT 1996
Article: 48705 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Well designed mass gassing chambers
Date: 6 Jul 1996 14:32:29 -0400
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In article <4rguel$auj@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>, rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU
(Richard J. Green) writes:

>n article <4r6kca$eo9@elaine35.Stanford.EDU>,
>Richard James Green  wrote:
>>In article <4r53i0$g69@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
>
>>Then you are naive about the motivations of many of your compatriots.
>>
>>Mr. Ehrlich,
>>
>>Do you think that Greg Raven cares about the truth?
>>Do you think that the Hubers care about the truth?
>>Do you think Matt Giwer or Tom Moran care about the truth?
>>Do you care about it?
>>Why are you here?
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Rich Green
>
>Silence noted.  Why is Mr. Ehrlich afraid to answer these questions?
>
>Regards,
>
>Rich Green

Now here it is on a beautiful Saturday afternoon and I turn on the thing
and there is this message I have never seen before accusing me of being
afraid to answer *these questions.* 

I don't know enough about Greg Raven to comment.  I really know very
little about him, or about his website, which I usually just use as a
platform to hot link other places.

I wouldn't be _surprised_ if Raven, the Hubers, Moran, or the Giwer were
interested in truth.  But I really think that the way this board goes is
so Sisyphean in nature that the search for truth gets inundated first in
confusion, then in rhetoric, and finally in polarized provocation.

Most of what I call conventionalists are interested in truth.  The problem
is that they are not much interested in truth on this board.  This board
has been indentified as enemy territory.  Therefore the conventionalist
attitude is to win the argument, and devil take the hindmost.  A corrolary
of that is that conventionalists think that there are a lot of lurkers out
there whose minds might be corrupted by exposure to revisionist doubt. 
Therefore, for their sakes, the revisionists must be quashed.  I have
received a lot of e-mails saying essentially this.  I have also had
conventionalists tell me that if I was really interested in pursuing some
of the topics that I like to pursue, that's ok, but not on _this_ board. 
I have been advised to go somewhere else.

So while I respect where the conventionalists are coming from, and I
respect their ideals, and all that, and while I do believe they are
interested in truth per se, I do not believe that they are interested in
truth on this board.  They are interested in winning.  Period.

Now to the revisionists.  There are a lot of reasons why people are
revisionists.  Reasons that fall under the heading of being anti-Jewish,
or anti-Israel, and just being argumentative.  Are they truth seekers? 
Some.  But to the extent that their search for truth is compromised by
some kind of consequentialism, no.  I cannot see how anyone can be
committed to finding out the truth of something and at the same time be
committed to an a priori judgment as to what they will find.

Let me qualify that statement.  I never expect historical speculation, or
any kind of speculation, to lead me to conclusions that are inhumane,
anti-life, or destructive.  So far, none has.  For me, personally, if the
process of study or thought leads to concepts or ideas that are valueless
then I have to conclude that I am wasting my time.  In short, the
conclusions I derive from any speculation have to correlate to the very
real life I am leading, and the very real life experiences I have had. 
Otherwise, they are valueless to me.

Now, what am I doing here?  Well, I got on here from an association of
ideas, that reminded me of some concepts I had arrived at years ago.  Let
me underline that these concepts are not *original* I am sure, but I
arrived at them by think through _myself_ and hence they had that much
more meaning for me.

As you recall, some of the backblast from the Unabomber had to do with the
limitations of modern industrialized life, alienation, stark division of
labor.  This reminded me of ideas that I had had about the way 20th
Century European history had progressed, and (naturally) about how the
World Wars and the Holocaust had happened.  My thinking, at least insofar
as the Jewish people are concerned, is that industrialization according to
standard Western models was bound to destroy the insularity of the East
European Jewish communities, _even if_ such industrialization did not lead
to mass murder.

Of course, I had some other things to say about the Holocaust, and in the
beginning I concentrated all my skeptical observations in about 3-4 brief
posts, trying not to offend anybody!

Imagine my surprise when I found that while people would endorse my
skepticism to some extent in private, _no one_ (except revisionists) would
even entertain it on the board, and then, when I began to articulate the
larger concepts that led me to this board in the first place, I was
roundly abused, called a Hitler apologist, and just in general subjected
to rough and insulting treatment.  All of this by conventionalists, btw.

I started on this board making the observation that Holocaust Studies was
in bad shape (although most of my posts did not reference this because I
was pursuing my larger picture).  There has been very little from the
conventionalist side that would cause me to change that perception.  I now
conclude that -- given the fact that conventionalists feel that they are
battling hate on enemy terrain -- there will be little or no growth on the
conventionalist side of this board.

The revisionists then are reduced to making advertisements for their web
sites or sniping at conventionalist obiter dicta, in other words, acting
like guerillas.  Not too hard to do.  And sometimes amusing, given the
self importance of the Manichaen struggle that the conventionalists insist
on seeing here.

So why am I here?  Well, I have had some very pleasant contacts with
people on both sides.  They encourage my being here.  Habit is another. 
But this is a bad habit for someone with my range of interests and
extensive personal and/or family obligations.  Another reason:
communication on something I know about.  I like posting stuff from books
I read, that call into question what I consider incorrect or overly smooth
generalizations from either side.

I still think -- if one ignores the noise -- and I am learning -- that one
can learn and find things to think about here.  I have learned.  I have
found things to think about.  I enjoy this.  That's all.


  


From ehrlich606@aol.com Sat Jul  6 17:32:37 PDT 1996
Article: 48740 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Testimonial Fiction
Date: 6 Jul 1996 12:04:26 -0400
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In article <4rl2el$6a8@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt
Giwer) writes:

>
>>No photographs ? Shit. I have some photos from the Kurt Frantz Album,
>>an excavator at work, aso. It is worth to trash ? Frantz was sentenced
>>to life emprisonment (Dusseldorf) in 64.
>
>	Sorry about that.  It does not satisfy the criteria.  
>
>
>

Someone want to fill me in on something:  Kurt Frantz got out of prison
some years ago.  He was going to be interviewed by Demjanjuk's defense
team.  Yoram Sheftel, in his book, said very harsh things about Frantz as
being a *liar* or something.  (Sheftel, although Demjanjuk's defense
attorney, is no revisionist and lost a lot of family in the Holocaust.) 
What gives?



From ehrlich606@aol.com Sun Jul  7 09:53:38 PDT 1996
Article: 48803 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Perry Broad Testifies About Auschwitz
Date: 7 Jul 1996 00:28:47 -0400
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>
>ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:
>
>> ...you have also successfully argued that pea-sized is
>> exactly the word one would use to describe such a polygon.
>
>Ehrlich, you claimed that a description of size ("pea-sized")
>contradicts a description of the substance as angular.  This is
>obviously wrong, and Mr. Van Alstine pointed out that you were wrong.
>
>Your response was to sarcastically attack a straw-man parody of his
>argument, namely that "pea-sized" is _exactly_ the word one would use.
>
>Now, I'm all in favor of this process of going through eyewitness
>descriptions and evaluating what agrees with what, and what disagrees
>with what.  That's fine.
>
>But to do it in the fashion which you employ -- especially when you have
>set out with the goal of proving that some eyewitnesses were not really
>eyewitnesses -- is not helpful in the slightest.
>
>

Fair enough.  I try to contain my sarcasm but sometimes it gets the best
of me.  The fact is that *pea-sized* is in no way what a normal person
would say to describe rough polygon-shaped grains, anymore than you, or I,
or Mark would characterize Drano, or Grape Nuts, or cat litter, or rabbit
pellets as *pea sized* or as *cubes.*  _Assuming_ that the photo in Death
Dealer is what we are going to go by, we are looking at something with a
shape analogous to the aforementioned.

Same thing with color.  Blue is not purple.  Nyiszli (who I consider
unreliable in other respects, that may be Kremer's fault, I don't know)
says mauve.  Broad says blue.  One of Vrba's pals (and Vrba has
credibility problems) splits the difference and says bluish purple.  So
which is it?  And if it is both, then let's have a cogent explanation for
same beyond speculating that the color depends on a) HCN content; or b)
distance of viewer from scene.

Now back to shape.  Nyiszli says *granulated substance* which correlates
very well with what I see in the picture.  If there is something phony in
Nyiszli's testimony, somebody is going to have to explain, or explain
away, the correlation of what he describes and what Zyklon looks like in
the picture.  There is of course the possibility that the photo bears no
connection to what was going on the camps.  I doubt if someone took a can
of Zyklon, opened it, and then started taking pictures of it.  But for the
time being we are going to accept the picture.

*Obvious* is not the word I would use to suggest the connection of these
rough polygons and *pea sized* and/or *cubes*.  There it is.

Now back to shape and color.  We assume a correlation of shape, color, and
Zyklon classification, viz., ABCDE.  We would be far better off if we
could figure out that, for example, B is mauve cat litter, and E is blue
ERCO cubes.  Or whatever.

My guess is that B, as the second cheapest species of the product, would
probably be like the mauve cat litter.  Reasoning:  the more expensive
brands are designed for more complicated aerations, furnished homes, and
so forth.  Cubes will not get into the rug or roll under the furniture. 
That is my guess for today!  But I make it clear when I am guessing.

Now we return to blue pea-sized pellets.  If I read that, I envision
something on the order of blue mothballs.  And my argument here is not
only a potential explanation for the discrepancy, but _also_ a potential
guide for non-eyewitnesses.

Many descriptions of the operation of Zyklon describe a sublimation
process.  In other words, they all assume that the substance completely
evaporates.  What is this like?  Mothballs.  I know I envisioned Zyklon
that way myself until about two months ago.  So if someone is describing
it and has never seen it, the description of a *pea-sized* pellet would be
an immediate association of ideas.  But in addition, if someone had seen
it, and didn't really understand it, the concept of
sublimation=mothballs=pea sized would be, in my mind, easily done.  In
other words, people would be seeing something that wasn't really what was
there.  Of course, we now know that the HCN evaporates but not the carrier
substance.

Moving on to color.  Zyklon B is just one a of series, ABCDE.  But it
becomes commonly substituted with *Blausauere*, that is, *prussic acid*,
because it is the main source of prussic acid throughout the East.  Word
associations that we can expect among all but the specialists with the
substance will include taking the B as short for *Blausauere*, and
assuming that the substance is somehow *blue* because of the name
*Blausauere.* As I noted elsewhere, this confusion could arise in either
German or Yiddish.  Hence, people who had never seen Zyklon, but
attempting to describe its color, would say blue.  That is a cinch.  On
the other hand, people who had seen Zyklon used, but had *Blausauere* in
the front of their minds, might see *blue* when the real hue was something
different.

Am I saying Broad is lying?  I don't know.  Am I saying Nyiszli is lying? 
Again, I don't know, but I should add that there was probably some heavy
duty editing on the part of translator Kremer to generate some of the more
extreme errors, that are inarguable as to measurements at least.

What I _am_ saying is that as it stands the testimony of these two
contradict each other, both as to shape and color of Zyklon.  We should be
able to recognize this and move on to a solution other than to argue that
polygons are *pea sized* *cubes* and that *mauve* is *blue.*



From ehrlich606@aol.com Sun Jul  7 09:53:39 PDT 1996
Article: 48818 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Well designed mass gassing chambers
Date: 7 Jul 1996 03:35:03 -0400
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In article <6JUL199614233268@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>,
dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) writes:

>    Mr. Ehrlich, I would like to add that as I read your exchanges with
>    others on this board, the sentiments stated below summarize my
>    impressions as well.
>
>    Danny
>
>In article <4rmevt$5qm@elaine41.Stanford.EDU>,
redcloud@leland.Stanford.EDU
>(Richard James Green) writes...
>>Mr. Ehrlich,
>> 
>>Thank you for your reply.  I would like to try to explain why you have
>>received so much heat from this board.  I think you are wrong to assert
>>that the people you call conventionalists are not interested in finding
>>truth on this board as opposed to winning an argument.  It's true that
>>real intellectual discussion of these topics belongs elsewhere, but that
>>doesn't mean that conventionalists are not willing to follow the truth
>>wherever it reads.
>> 
>>The problem with your posts is that they are like a broken record that
>>he have heard so many times before.  Express doubts, but do not offer
>>any substance to support them.  When challenged on a substantive issue,
>>you tend to remain silent.  If there is no substance behind your doubts,
>>then it is hard to see why you are not just a smarter version of Matt
>>Giwer.  I am not asserting this to be the case by the way; I am trying
>>to explain to you what your contributions appear to be.
>> 
>>Your habit of criticizing the "conventionalists"  and not recognizing
>>the blatant anti-Semitism of Moran, Huber etc. lend credence to the
>>claim that you are a denier in smarter clothing (like Bob Hunt, Bradley
>>Smith etc.).  Your tendency to oversimplify the "conventionalist"
>>position looks a lot like Greg Raven's practice.
>> 
>>Your defense of Matt Giwer is simply appalling.  I find it hard to
>>believe that any reasonable person of goodwill could make the statements
>>that you've made about Matt Giwer. Luckily, your statements about Matt
>>Giwer are on file at Nizkor.
>> 
>>I hope this post might help you understand your reception on this
>>newsgroup.
>> 
>>Regards,
>> 
>>Rich Green
>
>

Sorry, Rich and Dan, but I was getting reamed on this group long before I
rose to Matt's defense.  Indeed, for over a month I criticized Matt and
others for what I considered antisemitism.  My reward was to get pummeled
for my rather mild essays in synthetic history.  So -- I will post what's
on my mind and I will not attack those who do not attack me.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Mon Jul  8 08:50:34 PDT 1996
Article: 48900 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Actions of the Righteous and Who Needed Zyclone B
Date: 7 Jul 1996 22:19:45 -0400
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In article <4rkfhh$bu1@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
(Ehrlich606) wrote:

> In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
> (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
> 

[snip]


> Not to say it was not used homicidally, but to argue that special
> treatment would be known by Degesch as a term for Jewish extermination
> widens the SS conspiracy considerably, don't you think? 

And who said that the SS at Auschwitz requested the Zyklon B directly from
DEGESCH? They didn't. They requested it from the SS in Berlin. In
particular, from Gerstein's office, who in turn ordered it from DEGESCH,
and had it shipped to (or picked up by) the SS at Auschwitz.
(_Destruction_. p.570.) 

> BTW, I think the guy at Degesch was later hanged precisely because it
was very 
> unsafe to produce this stuff without the warning stuff.  I think.

Sounds like a mighty slim limb you're out on there. Care for a saw? 

[snip]

"...The management of DEGESCH could not have been unaware of the use to
which their Zyklon B was being put. The SS ordered that the special order,
required by German law as a warning, be removed. This ordor was intended
to alert humans to the lethal presence of the gas. Ordering its removal
was a clear indication of the purpose it was to served. (Ibid. p.1750.) 

Like I said, they were executed for making the stuff without the
lachrymal.  The implication arrived at by the Court is forced and does not
stand up, especially since not all of the non-lachrymal Zyklon was used
for killing.

[snip]

> Again, Matt indicates that the story -- which is on Nizkor somewhere --
> stems from 1941.  Hence, his conclusion that there are two stories. 
Mike
> Stein had some input on this too.

Um, pardon my skepticism, but I don't trust the Troll's word as far as I
can spit. He has, in the past, claimed a many great number of things. Most
(if not nearly all) inevevitably were exposed as lies and/or stupidities
on the Troll's part. He has no credibility whatsoever in my book. I do not
except anything from him as submissible for discussion. 

So much for "Breitweiser" then. If you wish to refer to him then _you_ had
better did up a reference pronto. 

Here is the quote from the Nizkor archive, which references the
Breitweiser story.  I don't know whether in context the quote comes from
Conot or Naumann, I have nothing to say about either of these gents,
except that I thought Conot's book was weak, which was a surprise for me,
because his book on Watts (Rivers of Blood, Years of Darkness) made a
strong impression on me in the 1960's.

At Auschwitz, to which Russian prisoners were
   dispatched to clear land and build factories, the officers and
   'commissars' were initially executed one at a time with a shot in
   the back of the neck at the so-called Black Wall, adjacent to the
   Bunker (camp prison).  This was a laborious procedure that wore on
   the nerves of the SS executioners.  In October 1941, however, an SS
   officer named Arthur Johann Breitwieser noticed that one of his
   companions, charged with delousing the camp laundry, was instantly
   knocked out when exposed to a whiff of Zyklon B, the gas that was
   used as a disinfectant.  

   To Breitwieser, this seemed to offer the possibility of more
   efficient and less time-consuming executions.  After ordering the
   half-submerged lower level of the Bunker sealed, Breitwieser had
   several cans of the blue pellets, which vaporize when exposed to
   air, dropped in among the one thousand Russians awaiting execution.

   Two days later the camp inmates detailed to remove the bodies were
   met by a fearsome sight.  Men with contorted faces had locked
   themselves together in their death agonies, torn out each other's
   hair, and bitten off their fingers.  Their flesh and their clothes
   had fused into gelatinous blobs that sometimes disintegrated when
   the members of the detail tried to pick them up. (Naumann, pp. 59, 
   112, 134.)

   Conot, Robert E. Justice at Nuremberg. New York: Harper & Row, 1983

   Naumann, Bernd. Auschwitz. New York: Frederick A. Praeger, 1966, as
   cited in Conot

Extract from Nizkor archive.  I don't know what the URL is, because after
finding it I just downloaded it and snipped it to save.




From ehrlich606@aol.com Mon Jul  8 08:50:35 PDT 1996
Article: 48901 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What did Kurt Franz say?
Date: 7 Jul 1996 21:21:29 -0400
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>from  *Defending Ivan the Terrible* by Yoram Sheftel, (1996, 1993)

[many people] had incessantly pressed for the defense to take
evidence from the Deputy Commandant of Treblinka, the fiend Kurt Franz. 
He had been sentenced to life imprisonment in 1964 in Germany, and was
incarcerated until July 1993.  [....]  I emphasized also that in any case
no court would believe Franz's claim that Ivan Demjanjuk was not Ivan the
Terrible, since he had lied flagrantly at his own trial and denied all the
atrocities he committed at Treblinka. 

I checked on Nizkor but all they had on Franz was a quote from the *Good
Old Days* where he says that one and sometimes two trains would arrive at
Treblinka for gassing. Does anybody have the specifics on his lies and
denials?  I say this because the quote from the Nizkor site didn't sound
like lies and denial to me.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Mon Jul  8 08:50:36 PDT 1996
Article: 48903 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Perry Broad Testifies About Auschwitz
Date: 7 Jul 1996 03:39:15 -0400
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In article <177BCD29DS86.BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>, BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
(borowsky) writes:

>Subject:	Re: Perry Broad Testifies About Auschwitz
>From:	BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU (borowsky)
>Date:Sat, 06 Jul 96 14:58:36 EDT
>
>In article <4rjvdb$64t@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
>ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) writes:
> 
>>
>>Subject:        Perry Broad Testifies About Auschwitz
>>From:   dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>>Date:   Fri, 5 Jul 1996 19:44:11 GMT
>>
>>
>>Testimony of SS-Unterscharfuehrer Pery Broad, describing gassing in
>>Krema I in Auschwitz
>>[Quoted in "KL Auschwitz as Seen by the SS", p. 176]
>>-------------------------------------------------------------
>> ... The "disinfectors" were at work. One of them was
SS-Unterscharfuehrer
>>Teuer, decorated with the Cross of War Merit. With a chisel and a
>>hammer they opened a few innocuously looking tins which bore the
>>inscription "Cyclon, to be used against vermin. Attention, poison!
>>to be opened by trained personnel only!". The tins were filled to
>>the brim with blue granules the size of peas. [ . . . . ]
>>
>>[The above is Keren's post.  *blue granules the size of peas*
contradicts
>>Nyiszli's testimony of *mauve granulated substance*.
> 
>"Contradicts":  Hardly.  Mauve is a shade between blue and purple.  Broad
>says blue; Nyiszli says mauve.  The difference is in the degree of
>observation,
>not in the hue and color.

>From  whence do you define mauve as between blue and purple?  Because of
the ROY G. BIV color spectrum, no doubt.  I don't think so.  *Mauve* is
the French word for *mallow* (btw, Malve in German) it means those
clusters you will find on those plants in swampy waters and which by
association are given to the corn syrup treat -- *marshmallows.*  Mauve is
a color that has purple and tannish highlights, from my experience. 
*Puce* (from the French, *flea*) is a purple with blue highlights, by
association with the blood that comes from a crushed flea.

> 
>Vermillion is a shade of red; charcoal, a shade of grey; avacado, green. 
Is
>this really your wedge, Ehrlich?

Why do you people always insist on being so personal, and so taunting? 
Then when I do it, it is a _big_ _deal_.
> 
>>                                                      It also
contradicts
>>the B&W photo in *Death Dealer* which shows polygonal cat litter sized
>>pellets.  Finally *the size of peas* implies spheres -- it does not
imply
>>cubes, therefore, no ERCO.]
> 
> 
>Why not suppose Broad chose "peas" because they most resembled the
dimension
>of
>the indvidual pellets?  I guess he might've said "polygonal cat litter
sized
>pellets" assuming the product existed at the time (and assuming he had a
>cat).
>I guess he could have said "dice" or "earrings," but he chose that green
>(avacado) legume.  Telling evidence?  Again, it seems to be a matter of
>degree
>in the observation.   "Peas" do not necessarily `imply spheres' and so,
Broad
>hardly "contradicts the B&W photos".

Peas imply spheres to me.  That seems natural and unforced.
> 
>Again, is this your wedge against the testimony?  Is he lying?  Are you
>saying
>he wasn't there?  Or that he acquired dubious information after the fact
and
>told to his interrogators in exchange for clemency, amnesty?  Or was he
>simply
>wrong?  In any event, what relation did his testimony have to the actual
>events?  How does one go about accounting for these discrepencies?

Lots of questions.  I don't know if he is lying.  See my other response in
this thread.  My guess is that either he is lying or he is seeing
something other than what was there.  (consult the other post, please)

The point here is that to my eye, without a lot of interpolation, Broad's
testimony on Zyklon contradicts Nyiszli's, just as Nyiszli's description
of the bodies post mortem contradicts Hoess'.  Beyond that, all else is
speculation.

The best way to answer these questions is to get the specs from the people
who made the stuff.  Period.  The question will not be settled until then.

  

> 
> 
>With patience,
> 
>Bruce Borowsky
> 



From ehrlich606@aol.com Mon Jul  8 19:56:52 PDT 1996
Article: 49043 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Without Jewish genes, Goyems would be nothing
Date: 8 Jul 1996 10:48:16 -0400
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This has something to do with Levi Strauss, right?


From ehrlich606@aol.com Tue Jul  9 07:36:54 PDT 1996
Article: 49117 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another word on Dachau
Date: 9 Jul 1996 01:32:03 -0400
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In article <4rs84h$s9l@news-e2d.gnn.com>, Widmann@gnn.com (Richard
Widmann) writes:

>*****************
>
>"It is true that there were no extermination camps on German soil 
>and thus no mass gassings such as those that took place at 
>Auschwitz, Treblinka and other camps.  A gas chamber was in the 
>process of being built at Dachau, but it was never completed."
>
>

This is known as eating your cake and having it too.  I am sure that the
response you will receive will be along the lines of *some other room was
used for such gassings*  Actually, if what Mr. Wiesenthal says is true, it
casts a dim light on the by now well known Rascher *combat gases* letter
-- which I seem to recall antedated the end of the war by some time.



From ehrlich606@aol.com Tue Jul  9 15:36:31 PDT 1996
Article: 49263 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionism Defined
Date: 9 Jul 1996 00:53:51 -0400
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In article <4rsbbt$203@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, sf924@aol.com (SF924)
writes:

>
>Mr Hagen:
>
>Your remarks during this string have been very thoughtful.  I don't
>believe in burning heretics either.  I will defend with my life your
right
>to believe anything you want.  You have no obligation to accept anything
>as true or false.
>
>But you have to come to grips with a very serious fact: no historian or 
>academic, who is not also pushing a neo-Nazi or similar agenda, seems to
>support your position.  The only people who seem to support your position
>are those persons with a strong political or personal bias either to
>rehabilitate Nazism, Hitler or facism or denounce its victims, i.e. Jews
>and other lesser races.  Much of the recvisionist thinking plays on
>earlier Nazi-style propoganda: i.e.  the Jews control the world.  

This _is_ a serious fact and bothered me a great deal when I encountered
the revisionist literature.  I thought to myself, *is there something
wrong with me?* -- and this feeling intensified, because I was in a
situation where the nature of my summer-time research was putting me in
constant contact with texts on this subject.

As for professional historians.  First of all, historians are human beings
and their knowledge of materials outside their narrow field of
specialization is usually quite narrow.  I can think of a few with very
wide interests and tastes, but these are definitely not the common run. 
That means that most German historians -- in which context you would
expect this to appear -- have a focus defined by their dissertation
database and would not normally be inclined to explore materials like,
say, the IMT/NMT series with a critical eye.

Secondly, most people in the academic community in my 15 years contact
with it are generally very liberal.  For them to even think of looking at
Nuremberg materials with a view to casting suspicion on some of it would
be looked askance at by them for the very same reasons that sf suggests: 
association with Hitler apologists, Neo-Nazis, anti-semites, and whatever.
 That does not mean that I never had a senior colleague make revealing
comments or wistful suggestions to me.  Because of such associations, and
perceived consequences, i.e., *helping out* Nazism, or anti-semitism, most
academics don't want anything to do with it.  The problem, in my opinion,
is that professional academics tend to turn their backs on the topic in
toto.

It is perhaps ironic that while I have registered skepticism about aspects
of the Holocaust here, I always integrated it firmly into my 20th Century
Europe courses.  In this regard, I gave it far more coverage than my
colleagues, including my Jewish colleagues.  Of course, I did not allow my
skepticism in such circumstances to surface: not so much because of
reprisal, but because, like many people, I consider the Holocaust a moral
parable as well, and the point you want to get across to young adults is
that such terrible things can happen, rather than engage in detailed
criticism, because then there is the fear that they will not get the moral
message at all, or else they will draw idiotic conclusions.  I don't think
I would forsake the *moral* element even today.  [I am sure I will get in
trouble for this admission.]
 
>
>Until serious mainstream academics come to support your position, your
>position will be viewed as part of the lunatic fringe, and justifiably
so.

Unfortunately, you are right.  But also unfortunately, people who think
revisionism of some kind is needful are liable to be viewed as harmful,
_unlike_ the lunatic fringe.  And, basically, mainstream academics will
not touch on the matter until research topics on subjects ancillary to the
Holocaust start leading into archives and down pathways that will
illuminate the Holocaust.  I don't know when that will be.

It is however worth noting that Arno Mayer, a maverick in many respects,
has at least suggested the revisionism on this subject is not entirely
barren.  I make note of this with full awareness that Professor Mayer is
no denier and would not want to be associated with them.

>
>Further to this point, you really have to look hard at why your position
>has been rejected. Your claim that unpopular opinions are never readily
>accepted is intellectually lazy and smacks of self-pity.  I think the
>claim of poitical correctness has similarly been overplayed.
>

[snip about Israel]
>
>Why would a legitimate scholar or historian be afraid to tackle what must
>surely be the greatest misrepresentation in history, the extermination of
>the Jews.  I have to conclude that the reason why is simply because noone
>has come forward with any credible proofs. 

In order to carry out this project properly, said scholar would require
credentials in German, Jewish, and/or East European History.  He or she
would require training in several languages, including Hebrew and Yiddish.
 He or she would have to become skilled in documentary and textual
analysis in these languages.  He or she would have to have a sound
understanding of law.  He or she would have to be confident that his or
her conclusions would do no harm.

He or she would have to labor for years in archives many of which are
still sealed.  He or she would have to fearlessly pronounce on the quality
of evidence at Nuremberg.  He or she would have to declare at least some
documents forgeries, and he or she would have to question some or quite a
bit of witness testimony, depending on how far he or she viewed the
revisionist problem. The reward would be professional ostracism, for the
reasons adumbrated above.  Any takers?



>
>



From ehrlich606@aol.com Tue Jul  9 20:35:39 PDT 1996
Article: 49297 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: 9 Jul 1996 19:32:02 -0400
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In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
(Mark Van Alstine) writes:

>
>> In short, the three boxes are just that, three boxes of
>> roofing material laid out at the job site. 
>
>Well, this pretty much confirms that Mr. Allen is simply grasping at
>straws now.  What _evidence_ does he have that the "little chimneys" are
>"boxes of roofing material?" None. How does Mr. Allen explain that these
>"boxes of roofing material" can be seen on the roof of L.Keller 1 in the
>USAAF aerial photo of August 1944- a _year and a half_ later? He can't.
>Given that there is a plethora of photgraphic, documentary, and
eyewitness
>evidence that descibes these "little chimneys" as part of the Zyklon B
>introduction column system. 
>
>Occam's Razor would have us opt for the _simplest_ explination for their
>existance: they were part of the Zyklon B introduction column and NOT
>"boxes ofroofing material" that just happened to be left on the roof for
>18 months. 
>
>

I have seen the aerial photos of Auschwitz as well, and three boxes does
not equal four irregular black splotches such as are evident in the
photographs.  Occam's Razor will lead us first to question the association
of the three boxes and the four irregular black splotches in the first
place.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jul 10 08:10:56 PDT 1996
Article: 49426 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another word on Dachau
Date: 9 Jul 1996 21:10:57 -0400
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In article <4ru86b$210@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU>, rjg@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU
(Richard J. Green) writes:

>
>No one in this newsgroup to my knowledge has claimed that gassings "such
>as those at Auschwitz, Treblinka and other camps" occurred at Dachau.
>What has been asserted is that experimental gassings _may_ have taken
>place at Dachau.  
>
>Regards,
>
>Rich Green

I will go along with that assertion.  But why *may*? In other words, why
bring up Dachau at all?  My thinking is because there were assertions in
1945 or thereabouts that gassings took place but that these assertions
have been dropped.  It seems no one wants to state clearly that there were
any propaganda lies told about Germany in WW2.  I find it hard to believe
that there were _none_.




From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jul 10 08:10:57 PDT 1996
Article: 49428 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust Almanac - I.G. Farben "labour problems" at Monowitz
Date: 9 Jul 1996 20:24:17 -0400
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In article <4rte3o$nhr@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
(Ken McVay OBC) writes:

>This citation sheds some light on the discussions surrounding the
>   effect of German economic policy upon the Jews, in that it documents
>   I.G. Farben's complaints that too many Jews were being "selected"
>   upon arrival at Auschwitz, i.e. sent to the extermination chambers,
>   and that productivity was suffering as a result.
>
>   I do not, I should add, accept that this means that those who assert
>   that Schact's (Reichsbank president) economic policies, rather than
>   Hitler's rabid anti-Semitism, destroyed the Jews are correct. While
>   the personal greed of Farben's managers certainly played a major role
>   in the Holocaust, it seems clear that at no time was it permitted to
>   substantially impact upon Hitler's desire to destroy the Jews at any
>   given time. (Even if Schact's policies _did_ enhance the application
>   of Hitler's anti-Semitic agenda, it was, I believe, entirely
>   consistent with reality: Schact was simply another Nazi thug, doing
>   exactly what he was told to do. Doing anything else, I might add,
>   would probably have gotten him killed.

I am not sure what is being said here.  Hjalmar Schacht was dismissed as
head of the Reichsbank on January 19, 1939.  He was not a member of the
Nazi Party.  He was tried at Nuremberg under Counts 1 and 2 only and was
acquitted.  He was imprisoned by Hitler in the KZ system after the 20 July
Plot.  So how is he *simply another Nazi thug* and what does this have to
do with the Auschwitz complex.  (cf. Telford Taylor, *Anatomy of Nuremberg
Trials*, p. 591f)


From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jul 10 14:57:31 PDT 1996
Article: 49475 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another word on Dachau
Date: 10 Jul 1996 16:02:23 -0400
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In article <4s0oas$3of@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU>, rjg@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU
(Richard J. Green) writes:

>In article <4ruvv1$5kj@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
>Ehrlich606  wrote:
>>In article <4ru86b$210@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU>, rjg@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU
>>(Richard J. Green) writes:
>>
>>>
>>>No one in this newsgroup to my knowledge has claimed that gassings
"such
>>>as those at Auschwitz, Treblinka and other camps" occurred at Dachau.
>>>What has been asserted is that experimental gassings _may_ have taken
>>>place at Dachau.  
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>
>>>Rich Green
>>
>>I will go along with that assertion.  But why *may*? In other words, why
>>bring up Dachau at all?  My thinking is because there were assertions in
>>1945 or thereabouts that gassings took place but that these assertions
>>have been dropped.  It seems no one wants to state clearly that there
were
>>any propaganda lies told about Germany in WW2.  I find it hard to
believe
>>that there were _none_.
>
>The reason, Mr. Ehrlich, is that we are interested in the truth here. No
>one has stated that there were no propaganda lies about Germany.  It's
>just that the existence and possible use of a gas chamber at Dachau
>wasn't one of them.  The RIF soap story probably was one (although I'm
>not clear whether it was propaganda or just rumor).  Why is Mr. Ehrlich
>so eager to show propaganda lies?  Couldn't it be the case the previous
>assertions were merely in error?  

Using the atrocity propaganda from WW1 as a known control, I would expect
that some of the atrocities alleged against Germans in WW2 would also be
false.  The problem is that -- as I have noted before -- there is an
unwillingness to grant this point in any explicit fashion on any point. 
Similarly, as with the soap story -- which you brought up -- there seems
an unwillingness to admit the rather obvious problems with Mazur's
testimony (and he was the sole *eyewitness*.)

>
>As far as bringing up Dachau, it was _your "side"_, i.e. the
>distortionists, who brought it up, Mr. Ehrlich.  Either you or Matt
>Giwer claimed that there was no gas chamber at Dachau.  It would be
>dishonest not to correct that claim when there is evidence for such a
>chamber and some claims that it _may_ have been used.  This is not about
>propaganda value, Mr. Ehrlich, this is about truth and those who
>willfully distort it.
>
>
Actually, I think it was Richard Widmann who brought the matter up with
appropriate quotes from Martin Broszat and Simon Wiesenthal.  I don't
think it is willful distortion to point out that there is not unanimity on
this topic.  Indeed, I would also like to know what specific evidence you
consider so decisive for _your_ position versus that taken by Broszat and
Wiesenthal.

And while we are on the subject, I would like someone to tell me more
about the Dachau gas chamber.  Was it designed as a CO or Zyklon chamber? 
If the latter, perhaps the construction far enough along for useful
comparisons to the A-B chambers. Or perhaps was it designed in some other
way for some other gases.

 


From ehrlich606@aol.com Thu Jul 11 07:22:20 PDT 1996
Article: 49569 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Follow-up from before
Date: 10 Jul 1996 23:33:15 -0400
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In article <177C0E6FCS86.BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>, BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
(borowsky) writes:

>
>To: Jamie McCarthy
> 
>There was some talk a while ago about putting together a comprehensive
record
>testimony (from IMT, NMT and elsewhere).  I remembering offering to help,
but
>I was speaking prematurely.  I'm going offline indefinitely sometime in
the
>couple of weeks.  I realize that the idea has pretty much died out, but I
>thought it would be better to tell you now before I disappered.
> 
> 
>--Bruce Borowsky

Bruce -- I have heard that the entire IMT/NMT (red, blue, and green
series) is on CD ROM for about $400.  Others will include documentation
only.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Thu Jul 11 07:22:20 PDT 1996
Article: 49582 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE SHUT DOWN
Date: 10 Jul 1996 23:41:44 -0400
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In article <4s16p4$p99@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken)
writes:

>
>	Since tehre is no such term it is neither well known nor is there
no 
>recognized meaning for it.  It is,. apparently something you made up to
>justify your 
>lies.
>
>
>By the way, the word should be "it's" and you aseem to have no
understanding
>of 
>the word "innuendos."

I am still trying to figure out what Cassio's handkerchief has to do with
any of this.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Thu Jul 11 07:22:21 PDT 1996
Article: 49593 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: 9 Jul 1996 10:43:03 -0400
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In article <4rs72o$nhe@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
(Matt Giwer) writes:

>ubject:	Mauving right along
>From:	mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
>Date:	Mon, 08 Jul 1996 23:52:51 GMT
>
>	A most amazing thing has occurred.  
>
>	After months of insisting upon blue coloring, after hundreds of
messages
>on the subject, testimony as to a different color is presented.
>
>	Lo and Behold!  The color is easily misidentified!  
>
>	Can this misidentification be applied to the original blue?  
>
>

One of the reasons I posted the information so fast when I found it was
because there had been so many messages over the past several weeks on
this seemingly minor issue.  But when I pointed out that a witness said
*mauve* I was promptly asked, what difference does it make?

There is a commitment to *blue* on this board, just as there is a
commitment to *ERCO cubes*, but I haven't the slightest idea why.  I have
already suggested that *blue* would be an obvious color choice for someone
who had never seen the stuff or for someone who was easily suggestible
(because of *Blausauere*).  


From ehrlich606@aol.com Fri Jul 12 07:00:29 PDT 1996
Article: 49786 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nyiszli's Memoirs of Auschwitz
Date: 11 Jul 1996 05:19:37 -0400
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In article <4s1euc$4n6@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU>, rjg@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU
(Richard J. Green) writes:

>
>In article <4rvhju$6th@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>,
>Richard J. Green  wrote:
>
>>84. Ho"ss, _Kommandant, p. 159.  The same preparation was used for the
>>delousing of clothes.  _Ibid._  Most documents relating to the shipment
>>of the gas [sic] to camps simply state Zyklon.  See, however, 1944
>>correspondance with B designation in documents NI-9909 and NI-9913.
>
>Which obviously solves the blueness issue, i.e. it was a Ho"ss of a
>different color.
>
>
>Regards,
>
>Rich Green
>
>

Thank you for a pleasing shaft of humor.



From ehrlich606@aol.com Fri Jul 12 07:00:30 PDT 1996
Article: 49811 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Nizkor
Date: 10 Jul 1996 21:23:26 -0400
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Subject:	Re: The Best of Nizkor
From:	dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Date:	Wed, 10 Jul 1996 22:31:58 GMT

mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:

#        He admitted he lied under oath.  
#
#        What more do you want?   

I said it very clearly: I want the full text of his testimony,
not what "revisionists" claim he said. Why should we believe
"revisionists", who have proven themselves - numerous times - 
to be pathological liars?

Ok?


-Danny Keren.

Comment: I made a request like that once from someone who kept saying
Lagace had said *exploding corpses* at the second Zuendel trial.  I was
told that transcripts cost $10 a page in Toronto, presumably for the first
one as well. But you know that.

The fact is that we could all tighten up our arguments considerably if it
was possible to inexpensively and without difficulty obtain the relevant
books in this field: IMT, NMT, Pressac, Zuendel trials, post-Nuremberg
trials, etc. to say nothing of the archives that are still in Soviet,
British, and US hands.  The latter will happen eventually; the former,
probably not.  The interest, believe it or not, is just not there.


  


From ehrlich606@aol.com Fri Jul 12 11:10:03 PDT 1996
Article: 49865 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: listen up, Alec G.
Date: 12 Jul 1996 06:29:21 -0400
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In article <31E3EF41.D5D@gryn.org>, Alec Grynspan  writes:

>
>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> 
>>         You have identified me as a troll.
>
>Yes - because you are.
>
>> 
>>         Sorry abut that but this conference is a not a troll but a
"take no
>> prisoners" game.
>> 
>
>You already lost, Matt. Sorry, but your inability to see that is part of
>your current problem.
>
>You miss the real purpose of this NG, Matt. Even many of the long-time
>participants miss it.
>
>Think about it. Draw some thread shift diagrams. You should be able to
>get the real use for this conference.
>
>BTW - your claim to be destroying it is foolish. You are doing an
>excellent job of assisting in that purpose. The person who has done the
>most to damage that function is one of the folks that you label the
>"gang of six" and he doesn't even realise it - yet.
>
>

I am curious to know what AG thinks the purpose of the conference is. 
When I got here I thought the purpose could be to discuss and possibly
respectfully disagree with others about this topic.  I don't think so,
now.

Person A states a position.  If Person B can refute it, or reasonably
differ, he does so.  Threads should die or be left alone at that point. 
That is where I usually leave them.  But what often happens is that Person
A responds to B, B responds back to A, and tempers flare.  The next thing
you know it descends into a name calling contest, and then someone loses
their cool and says something really stupid.

The only reasonable expectation is that revisionists can state their
positions, and conventionalists can state theirs.  Absent extraordinary
circumstances, polarizations will dominate, and no one will ever concede a
point to what is perceived as the other side.  In short, Person A and
Person B are essentially commercials for their respective sides.  Who
knows, if there are lurkers out there -- *if* -- they might even read the
respective web sites or even read some books.  That would be something.



  


From ehrlich606@aol.com Fri Jul 12 11:10:04 PDT 1996
Article: 49874 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionism
Date: 12 Jul 1996 07:21:04 -0400
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In article <4s47qp$8lg@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, sf924@aol.com (SF924)
writes:

>ubject:	Re: Revisionism
>From:	sf924@aol.com (SF924)
>Date:	11 Jul 1996 20:55:53 -0400
>
>  The main problem with so-called Holocaust revisionism is the extremism
>of the requested revision.  It is just too outlandish and falls, for me,
>into the realm of paranoid quackery of the type such as: Dwight
Eisenhower
>was a Communist mole; The Jews run the world out of a secret base in
>Antarctica, and Hillary Clinton is an alien from outer space.
>
>      Revisionism would seem more plausible if the only issues of debate
>were whether Hitler personally ordered the "Final Solution", whether the
>question was whether  6, 5 or 4 million Jews were gassed (the true
tally),
>or  whether the Nazis always intended Genocide or just after 1941.  This
>is perhaps best put into light when considering real world examples of
>historical revisionism. 
>
You are right about some revisionists. But not everyone seeks the revision
you claim.  For example, I accept the six million figure, and I also
accept the idea of *ultimate extermination* i.e., as articulated in the
Wannsee Protocols.  What I do not accept is immediate extermination,
without mitigation.  I accept that there were gassings, I just think the
totals are too high.  Way too high.  Can I prove it?  Not from where I am
now in life.  But that's where I am.  In addition, I consider Nazism
definitely on the underside of the great German cultural tradition, I
consider its racism fatally flawed, and many of its leadership low class.

David Irving is not far off from me.  He admits up to four million dead,
no gas chambers but gas vans at Chelmno, and no explicit extermination
order.  He has some fascist sympathies.  For these things he is barred
entry into half a dozen countries.

Such views are *moderate* revisionism.  But on this board, you are still
going to be trashed.  But there are many who are moderates in the fashion
I have outlined.

>
>The so-called revsionism which I have seen espoused by some in this group
>is  like the script in a science fiction or Oliver Stone movie.  You
don't
>raise reasonable issues about the Holocaust, you deny that the whole
thing
>ever took place, lock, stock and barrel.  You don't just debate the
>numbers, you claim that there were no gas chambers and no "Final
>Solution."   It was all just one big lie, a big hoax.  All the witnesses
>lied, the documents and pictures  were forged, the confessing Nazis lied
>to appease their captors or were tortured.  All of the Judges and lawyers
>were either willing dupes or active conspirators.  You don't just revise,
>you deny.

In spite of what I have stated as my position above, yes, I would say that
the Soviets in particular probably forged documents and elicited false
testimony and affidavits.  What -- do you think they decided to be
especially honest at Nuremberg?

>
>It's like not just questioning whether we should have dropped the A-Bomb,
>but  claiming that it never happened.  

Exactly who here has claimed that *it* never happened?  What is *it*? 
That six million Jews died, mostly at the hands of a German state, but
maybe not so much in gas chambers?  And that is _not_ a Holocaust?

It was a hoax by the Japanese to
>elicit sympathy and U.S. aid.  The Mushroom cloud was really an inverted
>tornado. That big flat area in the center of Hiroshima was a giant
parking
>lot built in 1935 and you have the pictures to prove it! You are like
that
>group of Aborigines in Australia who believed that the Appollo moon shot
>was a big hoax because the moon was a God to them.  They believed that
the
>whole thing was staged by NASA and the moon landing films were shot in a
>Hollywood studio.
>
>By the very extremism of your position, you people reveal yourselves for
>what you really are:  paranoid delusional anti-semites, cranks,
crack-pots
>and Nazi apologists.
>
You went to all that trouble just to call people names?  What a waste.



From ehrlich606@aol.com Sat Jul 13 11:00:59 PDT 1996
Article: 49943 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Voices from the Third Reich-I
Date: 12 Jul 1996 21:13:00 -0400
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Voices from the Third Reich -- by Johannes Steinhoff, Peter Pechel, and
Dennis Showalter, Preface by Helmut Schmidt    Da Capo Press (NY:1996,
orig. 1989)

ISBN 0-306-80594-4



From ehrlich606@aol.com Sat Jul 13 11:01:00 PDT 1996
Article: 49978 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hitchens Salutes Historian David Irving
Date: 12 Jul 1996 04:12:39 -0400
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In article ,
slepokuo@cadvision.com (Orest Slepokura) writes:

> "If these people want to
>speak, let them. It only leads those of us who do research to re-examine
>what we might have considered as obvious. And that's useful for us. I
have
>quoted Eichmann references that come from a neo-Nazi publishing house. I
>am not for taboos and I am not for repression."
>
>

Thus spoke Raul Hilberg.  A true son of Maimonides and Spinoza.



From ehrlich606@aol.com Sat Jul 13 11:01:01 PDT 1996
Article: 49996 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: A Jew Who Fought For Hitler
Date: 12 Jul 1996 14:57:49 -0400
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 I was drafted into the Wehrmacht when I was 17, and sent to the
Eastern Front.  I was wounded in the vicinity of Smolensk and was taken to
the military hospital in Bobruisk on the Berezina River.  I was put in a
large room with about 150 to 200 privates.  I kept hearing shooting that I
couldn't identify.  But one day, I witnessed a scene that told me what it
was.

I overheard a few older soldiers discussing the price of a pistol.  They
couldn't seem to come to an agreement.  The one who wanted to sell it
said, *This is a really first rate piece.  I tested it out myself.  Jews
are being shot here.  I was out yesterday and shot three or four them ...*
Needless to say, this was a extraordinarily shocking experience for me,
considering I had a Jewish father.  These were not SS men; they were
simple privates. [...] This confession of murder was not politically
motivated.  It was obvious that these people were not killing out of
conviction.

After I got out of the hospital, I went to my commander, stood up to my
full height,and said, *Permission to speak, sir.*  I told him that
according to the Nuremberg Laws, I was a half-Jew and thus unacceptable
for the Wehrmacht.  He looked at me and said, *Are you crazy?  I'm not
interested in that at all.  You're a good soldier; don't cause me
trouble.*  Soon thereafter, I was released from the Wehrmacht ....

The guy returns to Germany, is unmolested, and after the war goes to
Israel in 1947.  He enrolled in the Haganah and later became a battalion
commander in the 7th Brigade of the Israeli Army.  After that, he went
home ....

Germany didn't treat me badly; I got to know a great many people
who were making an effort after the war to establish something new [....] 
I think of myself as a German, and always have.  And I have never had any
passport other a a German one. 

Testimony of Karl-Heinz Meier, *Voices from the Third Reich*, p. 295ff



From ehrlich606@aol.com Sat Jul 13 11:01:02 PDT 1996
Article: 49997 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Racism in Holocaust books
Date: 12 Jul 1996 11:45:44 -0400
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In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
(Mark Van Alstine) writes:

>
>One has to wonder what possible importance the Nazis would have attached
>to artisans who were Polish Jews if they did not attach any importance to
>artists who were German Jews whom they persecuted?
>
>

There is a difference between an artist and an artisan.  Artisan means
here *craftsman*, that is, skilled laborer.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Sat Jul 13 11:01:02 PDT 1996
Article: 50008 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE SHUT DOWN
Date: 12 Jul 1996 10:44:45 -0400
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In article <4s43p6$fcm@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken)
writes:

>>   ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) writes:
>
>  
>>  I am still trying to figure out what Cassio's handkerchief has to do
with
>>  any of this.
>
>	Sorry.  In my generation and in the schools I attended a good
working 
>knowledge of Shakespeare was considered a part of any education.  Check
out 
>the Cliff Notes on "Othello."  If you still don't get it, ask again.
>
>	--YFE
>
>

Yeah, right, Yale.  And back in _your generation_ you had to walk five
miles to school and back -- and it was uphill both ways.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Sat Jul 13 13:27:11 PDT 1996
Article: 50049 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: 12 Jul 1996 22:38:08 -0400
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In article <31E6690C.3F78@gryn.org>, Alec Grynspan  writes:

>
>Where is there proof that it was Dresden? Where is there proof of
>firebombing?
>
>Your rules - back at you!
>
>

Sorry, this just doesn't work.  Where are the three million who were
gassed?  Completely disappeared.  Not so Dresden.  Photographs and foreign
journalists visited the scene, the destruction, and the corpses within
days.  Not so Auschwitz or Treblinka.  Thousands of individuals, and even
national governments whose archives were not compromised by their enemies
admitted to the bombing of Dresden.  Not so Auschwitz or Treblinka.  Less
than 200 people claim to be eyewitnesses to the gassings that consumed 3
million, including many on trial for their lives and who denied personal
responsibility or involvement.  Not so Dresden.  And so forth.



From ehrlich606@aol.com Sat Jul 13 16:31:36 PDT 1996
Article: 50056 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Jew Who Fought For Hitler
Date: 12 Jul 1996 21:48:55 -0400
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In article <4s6mfl$h81@atlas.uniserve.com>, hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary
Ostrov) writes:

>
>In <4s677d$1nf@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
>wrote:
>
>
>> I was drafted into the Wehrmacht when I was 17, and sent to the
>>Eastern Front.  I was wounded in the vicinity of Smolensk and was taken
to
>>the military hospital in Bobruisk on the Berezina River.  I was put in a
>>large room with about 150 to 200 privates.  I kept hearing shooting that
I
>>couldn't identify.  But one day, I witnessed a scene that told me what
it
>>was.
>
>>I overheard a few older soldiers discussing the price of a pistol.  They
>>couldn't seem to come to an agreement.  The one who wanted to sell it
>>said, *This is a really first rate piece.  I tested it out myself.  Jews
>>are being shot here.  I was out yesterday and shot three or four them
...*
>>Needless to say, this was a extraordinarily shocking experience for me,
>>considering I had a Jewish father.  These were not SS men; they were
>>simple privates. [...] This confession of murder was not politically
>>motivated.  It was obvious that these people were not killing out of
>>conviction.
>
>>After I got out of the hospital, I went to my commander, stood up to my
>>full height,and said, *Permission to speak, sir.*  I told him that
>>according to the Nuremberg Laws, I was a half-Jew and thus unacceptable
>>for the Wehrmacht.  He looked at me and said, *Are you crazy?  I'm not
>>interested in that at all.  You're a good soldier; don't cause me
>>trouble.*  Soon thereafter, I was released from the Wehrmacht ....>quote>
>
>>The guy returns to Germany, is unmolested, and after the war goes to
>>Israel in 1947.  He enrolled in the Haganah and later became a battalion
>>commander in the 7th Brigade of the Israeli Army.  After that, he went
>>home ....
>
>>Germany didn't treat me badly; I got to know a great many people
>>who were making an effort after the war to establish something new
[....] 
>>I think of myself as a German, and always have.  And I have never had
any
>>passport other a a German one. 
>
>>Testimony of Karl-Heinz Meier, *Voices from the Third Reich*, p. 295ff
>
>And (assuming your  are accurate and that context would not
>convey a different understanding) your point is?
>
>

Tolle, lege!  Tolle, lege!


From ehrlich606@aol.com Sat Jul 13 17:01:41 PDT 1996
Article: 50074 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Nizkor
Date: 12 Jul 1996 22:32:38 -0400
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In article <8C44315.0811013020.uuout@almac.co.uk>,
angus.mclellan@almac.co.uk (ANGUS MCLELLAN) writes:

>
>As regards British records, there are two main issues. Firstly, there is
>the obsessive secrecy of the British government establishment. Many 
>records from the WWII-era are still sealed and will remain so for very 
>many years to come. Secondly, to a greater extent than appears to be the
>case elsewhere, some types of British records have been comprehensively 
>"weeded" with documents being moved to files which remain closed or 
>having been destroyed. This appears to be particularly the case with 
>Home Office and Security Service records (*) and (I assume) is equally 
>likely to be the case with SIS/SOE records.
>
>Angus
>
>

Thanks for the information.  But I must demur on one point.  I doubt if
any government has destroyed any records.  First of all, that is a
bureaucratic sin.  Secondly, you never know when a document might be
_useful_.



From ehrlich606@aol.com Sat Jul 13 18:18:28 PDT 1996
Article: 50079 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Discussion with Giwer begins
Date: 12 Jul 1996 22:45:28 -0400
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In article ,
jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) writes:

>
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>
>> jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>> 
>> > Please explain why you think the quote in question is "in the same
>> > league" as the homicidal gassings.  It has been demonstrated that
>> > evidence for gassing includes eyewitness testimony, which this is
>> > not, along with confessions of the perpetrators, and corroborating
>> > physical evidence.
>> 
>> Even if you insist upon confounding testimony with evidence these are
>> both testimony and therefore in the same league, category or whatever
>> you may wish to call it.
>
>Let's be absolutely clear about this.  You, Matt Giwer, are saying that
>the following quote is eyewitness testimony:
>
>  "It was in 1942 [at Belsen] that the special electrical appliances
>   were built in for mass extermination of people. Under the pretext
>   that the people were being led to the bath-house, the doomed were
>   undressed and then driven to the building where the floor was
>   electrified in a special way; there they were killed."
>   
>   IMT VII, pp. 576-577.
>
>Is that correct?
>
>> You are, however, lacking physical evidence of gassing for the
testimony
>> to corroborate (note the correct order not vice versa) as we have been
>> over many times.  
>
>Yes, we have been over this many times, and long before you arrived
>in this forum, Mr. Giwer.  You're wrong about there not being physical
>evidence, and you're wrong about which comes first.  Furthermore, you
>have ignored the fact that there are numerous confessions to gassing
>and to witnessing gassing, and there are none to this electrified
>floor.
>
>But those are side issues and I refuse to get distracted.
>
>Simply confirm for me that you are claiming that the quote above is
>eyewitness testimony.  We can start from there.
>
>There is eyewitness testimony of the gassings, so if the quote given
>above is not eyewitness testimony, then we have already established that
>it is not "in the same league" as the gassings, and there is no need to
>go any further.
>
>Posted;  not emailed for reasons stated previously.

This is an excerpt from one of those Polish books.  Obviously it is keyed
to eyewitness observations of some kind.  So are the USSR reports on
Majdanek and Auschwitz, which were also given judicial notice at
Nuremberg.  All of these sources _claimed_ to be the result of
investigations.  The current location of the source materials for these
investigations is (apparently) unknown. (natch!)



From ehrlich606@aol.com Sat Jul 13 18:18:29 PDT 1996
Article: 50089 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: 12 Jul 1996 22:56:36 -0400
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In article <4s6q4r$6mq@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken)
writes:

>
>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>>
>>  >>  	You are playing games.  Official records of reel nunbers
assigned to
>>  >>  particular operations exist.  
>>  
>>  >	Such things are easily forged.  The CIA is very good at that sort
of 
>thing.
>>  
>>  	But there is no claim of forgery for the holohugger evidence, only
>>  twisted interpretation.  
>
>
>	First, that is untrue.  Several revisionazis -- including Jeff
Roberts --
>have claimed photos have been altered.  Second, we are talking about your

>claims to have photographic evidence of the Dresden bombing that needs no

>further substantiation.  You have produced no chain of evidence.  Those
>photos 
>have been floating around for half a century.  Please prove that they are
not
>
>forged.
>
>	That silly standard is the one proposed by revisionazis -- you are
stuck 
>with it.  I suspect your photos are forged, therefore, your silly
argument
>that 
>Dresden was bombed is just a foolish myth.
>
>

Not to start trouble, but I do believe that some photographs have been
retouched and staged.  The problem begins when (1) we fail to admit this,
and (2) we therefore argue that all photos are fake.  You are going to ask
for examples, I know.  Sorry!  But certainly you are aware of the way the
Soviets airbrushed Trotsky out of all of the Revolutionary pictures after
1925?



From ehrlich606@aol.com Sun Jul 14 07:45:24 PDT 1996
Article: 50154 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Any day now"?
Date: 14 Jul 1996 05:50:17 -0400
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In article <31e65fca.7607002@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) writes:

>
>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>Here is an exchange that led up to Jamies claim he was going to be
>getting the Degesch patent "anyday now". It started off with Moran
>going over the release rate of Kyklon B with the former impersonating
>professor Keren.
>
>The professor had just gone through his usual indefinite posturing on
>the the release rate.
> 
>"Dr. Ulrich Roessler, who often posts to this group, looked at
>the original Zyklon patents in Germany. What they say seems
>to totally contradict what you say above. Again, what is your
>source? Please, do not quote other "revisionists", give a hard
>source."
>===
>
>Moran:
>
>"The source is the described product. Are you saying the
>product wasn't designed for slow release? Lets make it easier on you,
>Are you saying the product wasn't designed for gradual/extended
>release? We can do away with the word 'slow'."
>===
>
>Jamie McCarthy jumped in:
>
>"OK, that's fine.
>
>The product was designed to "extend" the release of the gas over a
>period of about ten minutes.
>
>Do you think that's "gradual," Mr. Moran?"
>===
>
>Moran responded to Jamies "ten minutes" claim:
>
>"Jamie, I want you to say something stupid again before I
>smother your terse little witty reply.  Are you saying all the HCN
>suspended in the Zyklon B medium was released in ten minutes? You say
>it was 'designed' to release in ten minutes?"	
>===
>
>Jamie comes back:
>
>	"Permit me to repeat myself.
>The product, Zyklon-B, was designed to release all, or nearly all,
>of its HCN gas over a period of about ten minutes.
>
>Now, Mr. Moran, please proceed."
>===
>
>Moran proceeds:
>
>	"According to a post by D. Keren, one study showed that Zyklon
>B loses 40% of its suspended HCN in the first half hour, and according
>to another study a bit more.'
>===
>
>Jamie backtracks:
>
>	"By the way, I should correct myself:  I don't know that it was
>Zyklon _B_ specifically, nor that the ten-minute release time was
>accurate for all forms.  The statement I made is accurate for a
>powder form of Zyklon, with appropriate application.  The release
>time for the silica form of Zyklon B, given the application
>technique used in the gas chambers, probably was rather longer."
>===
>
>Moran points out Jamie's backtrack:
>
>	"'By the way, I should correct myself: I don't know that it was
>Zyklon B specifically ...'"? 
>===
>
>Jamie:
>
>"I underlined _B_ for a reason.  One of the Zyklon products was
>designed to emit all or nearly all of its gas in about ten minutes.  I
>don't know that it was Zyklon B.
>
>The point, in any case, is that it was nowhere near the hours and
>hours suggested by Holocaust-deniers."
>===
>
>Moran rightfully presses Jamie:
>
>"Well Jamie, if there was a form of Zyklon that released all
>its HCN in ten minutes it wasn't the B strain, which leaves us with
>the question of why didn't the Germans use the more or less immediate
>release form instead of one that would take at least an hour and a
>half to release."
>===
>
>Jamie comes back with:
>
>"I have yet to see any evidence from you demonstrating this.
>Please put some documentation out on the table so that your claims
>may be considered worthy of discussion.
>
>My source for the ten-minutes figure, incidentally (I'm surprised you
>didn't ask!), is the Zyklon patent.  I don't have a direct citation
>for it yet, nor quotes, but it's been summarized for me by reliable
>sources who have found it, in Europe, and whom I hope will send me
>photocopies any day now."
>===
>
>It is obvious that Jamie tried to pull a fast one with 
>"The product was designed to "extend" the release of the gas over a
>period of about ten minutes."
> 
>The record of the thread shows the topic was the product "Zyklon B"
>when Jamie jumped in with his "ten minutes". 
>
>The record of the thread also shows that Jamie cited the product
>"Zyklon B" explicitly:
>
>"Permit me to repeat myself.
>The product, Zyklon-B, was designed to release all, or nearly all,
>of its HCN gas over a period of about ten minutes."
>
>The record of the thread shows Jamie, like a little boy coming around:
>
>"By the way, I should correct myself:  I don't know that it was
>Zyklon _B_ specifically, nor that the ten-minute release time was
>accurate for all forms. ..."
>
>
>

Somewhere on this planet there has got to be someone who knows the
difference between Zyklon ABCDE, the different carriers, and the release
times for the different carriers.  Would that person please step forward? 
This is like a scholastic argument over the number of teeth in a horse's
mouth depending on an obscure text in Aristotle when you have a herd
running around outside.



From ehrlich606@aol.com Sun Jul 14 10:24:58 PDT 1996
Article: 79576 of soc.culture.german
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: 12 Jul 1996 04:52:32 -0400
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In article , olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole
Kreiberg) writes:

>In article , Holger Skok
>wrote:
>>
>>Now, what happens when these crystals come into contact with
>>the victims' skins? What is the typical human body temperature? 
>>Given the fact that you are denying the holocaust, I had better
>>spell it out for you: The surface temperature of the skin is higher
>>than the sublimation temperature of cyanide gas and with the
>>chamber jam-packed full of humans there was no need for any
>>additional heating. The victims themselves provided the heat
>>necessary to set the cyanide free from the Zyklon B crystals.
>>
>>So much for the "slowness of evaporation" argument.
>>
>  Hm, you are speaking of cyanid crystals and thus confusing Zyklon B
with
>sodiumcyanid crystals. According to Encyclopedia Britannica vol 6, p 914
from
>1946 you can read the following: "Stabilized, liquid hydrocyanic acid, 
>absorbed in granular diatomite, is marketed under the name of Cyclon [in
the
>English speaking world]". Zyklon B is a fluid which become a gas when it 
>comes in touch with the air. The higher the temperature the quicker this 
>fluid evaporates or boils into gas. Cyclon or Zyklon B as it was called
in 
>Germany (B stands for Blausaeure) came in pellets.

Excuse me, but discussions on alt.revision have established, or so it
seems, that B does not stand for *Blauesaeure*, it stands for *B* as in
the second species of the product.  Zyklon was marketed under several
letter varieties -- ABCDE -- Zyklon B was simply the second cheapest. 
However, because *Blausaeure* means prussic acid, and because prussic acid
_is_ cyanide, the confusion was apparently common in WW2. and after, it
seems.  I have further suggested that the etymology of *Blausaeure* (lit.,
blue acid) has also had an impact of how the HCN was understood to appear
and leave its victims.

 These pellets might have 
>hit the naked prisoners on the way down to the cold flor but I don't
think 
>that they might have been long enough in contact with the alleged human 
>bodies to have an influence on the temperature of the absorbed liquid.
>
>--
>Ole Kreiberg 

Again, it has been more or less established on alt.revisionism that the
crystals (actually, pellets) never contacted the prisoners at all, but
rather that the gas was released from the pellets through the bottom of an
induction column inserted into another lattice-work column specifically
designed for the distribution of gases.  The entire gassing procedure, we
have been assured, took 5-10 minutes, after which the room was ventilated,
and the induction columns removed.

>
>



From ehrlich606@aol.com Sun Jul 14 12:22:05 PDT 1996
Article: 50222 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Jew Who Fought For Hitler
Date: 12 Jul 1996 21:25:59 -0400
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In article ,
jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) writes:

>
>Was there a point you were trying to make?
>--

Voices from the Third Reich -- by Johannes Steinhoff, Peter Pechel, and
Dennis Showalter, Preface by Helmut Schmidt    Da Capo Press (NY:1996,
orig. 1989)

ISBN 0-306-80594-4

The only point I would presume to make is that the Holocaust was a lot
more complicated than we think.




From ehrlich606@aol.com Mon Jul 15 07:12:56 PDT 1996
Article: 50334 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nyiszli's Memoirs of Auschwitz
Date: 14 Jul 1996 23:27:54 -0400
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In article ,
jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) writes:

>
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>
>> On 14 Jul 1996 02:33:06 -0400, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:
>> 
>> >This is interesting, but I still inclined to regard that detail as a
>> >fake detail.
>
>Remainder of Ehrlich606's comments deleted.
>
>Here are Matt Giwer's comments to Ehrlich606:
>
>> First off it is all bullshit so why go further.
>> 
>> The problem is that the ability to smell (SMELL) HCN gas is it lacking
>> in a small percentage of the population.  
>> 
>> The suggestion of a tearing agent is absurd.  
>> 
>> By the time anyone would tear from HCN they are dead.   
>> 
>> This is just one more stupidity introduced by the holohuggers.
>
>Ehrlich, it is obvious from Mr. Giwer's comments that he doesn't even
>understand that what's under discussion is the lachrymogen agent added
>to Zyklon.  He thinks the "holohuggers" (what an insulting term BTW) are
>talking about the smell of HCN itself, and that we are claiming that
>people would "tear from HCN."  He hasn't even been paying close enough
>attention to ascertain what the discussion is about!
>
>Yet he is not above calling it all "bullshit" and "stupidity" and using
>insulting terms like "holohugger."
>
>Ehrlich, you've stood up for Mr. Giwer in the past, with comments like
>"Matt Giwer was right."  Have you recognized yet that Matt Giwer has no
>discernable expertise on this subject, and that he is just trolling,
>trying to provoke reactions?  If not, what will it take to convince you?
>
>

I think the difference in Matt's reaction to the suggestion and my
reaction to the suggestion is that I usually try to be patient when I
respond to a post, while Matt feels no such constraints.

I don't think Matt is a troll trying to start fights.  Certainly, there
are several people on this board trying to start fights, and I do not call
them trolls, but surely no one can start a fight unless the other side
decides to get into one.

The matter that Matt remarked on, and I remarked on, is the substance
here.  I think the detail is problematic; Matt, with greater assurance,
dismisses it categorically.  So what?  Obviously people have to make up
their own minds about the believability of testimonies or the details
contained therein.  My conclusion is that belief or disbelief in specific
testimonies is not proof of political sympathies or historical prejudices.
 Nevertheless, generally, people who accept all testimonies offered are
usually labelled *holohuggers* while people who do not believe some or all
testimonies are labelled *distortionists/deniers/nazi boys*.  

It is clear that one either believes or disbelieves testimonies.  Such
belief of disbelief is just as also clearly opinion.  Neither side can
prove the truth or falsity of testimonies.  All one can do is point to the
elements that make them doubt the overall credibility of a testimony.  To
go beyond that point, is, in my view, unnecessary and counter-productive.

Yet what _always_ happens is that when we get to that point we start
calling each other names: *holohugger*, *nazi boy*, etc.  What a waste.  I
am not responsible for how Matt expresses himself.  But I am in general
agreement with the skepticism of Matt and revisionists generally.  You are
not.  And I do not make you accountable for the calculated attempts at
insult that emanate from your side.  'Nuff said.



From ehrlich606@aol.com Mon Jul 15 10:30:37 PDT 1996
Article: 50422 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nyiszli's Memoirs of Auschwitz
Date: 14 Jul 1996 02:33:06 -0400
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In article <31E6D776.3EC2@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison  writes:

>
>Michael P. Stein wrote:
>> 
>>     One word with regard to the "suffocating cough:" remember that
until
>> late in the war, Zyklon contained not only cyanide but a lachrymogen as
a
>> warning indicator to let people know in the event of a leak - cyanide
is
>> not as clearly noticeable.  The cough may have been caused by residual
>> lachrymogen, which to be effective would have to be detectable before
the
>> cyanide developed lethal levels, and persist as long as the cyanide was
in
>> the area.
>
>If the lachrymogen behaved anything like CN or CS then it may have
persisted
>long *after* any cyanide had been neutralized.  The coveralls I wore
during
>NBC training (and the t-shirt I wore underneath) that were exposed to gas
>maintained the distinct odor for months afterwards, even after having
been
>chemically treated and washed many many times.
>
>This brings up a potentially interesting point.  Tear gas will absorb
into
>clothing easily and still be effective, at least minimally.  Exposure to
>damp skin (not just the eyes and nose/mouth) can be extremely painful. 
After
>the gassing session, I was the first one to hit the showers and the
others
>laughed when I practically screamed as I jumped in...at least until it
>was their turn.  Nasty stuff.
>
>Perhaps removal of lachrymogen in Zyklon B was due not solely to its use
>as a killing agent but to make it easier to clear out the bodies after.
>Much as the guards supplied the Sonderkommando with gas masks, perhaps
>they eliminated the lachrymogen because it became a nuisance having the
>body carriers in pain and not moving bodies efficiently enough.
>
>

This is interesting, but I still inclined to regard that detail as a fake
detail.  Someone here posted that the warning agent was a formic acid
compound (smell of mashed ants).  That's a bad scent, but not a cough
inducer.  Secondly, the warning stuff for cyanide gas would be to alert
you of its presence.  An *alert* that would consist of making you cough,
and thus taking in deep breaths to defeat it, would, it seems to me,
ensure deep inhalations of the gas you are supposed to be getting away
from.

Your comparison with CN and CS (with which I was trained also) is very
apt.  And I think it was per analogy with such gases (which go back to
WW1) that the above *detail* was created.

However there are two questions that remain unanswered:  Does HCN provoke
a cough?  How can the warning stuff provoke a cough when by 1944 the
Zyklon was supposedly made without it?


From ehrlich606@aol.com Mon Jul 15 19:32:07 PDT 1996
Article: 50510 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: TEST 4 [2/2]
Date: 14 Jul 1996 23:16:57 -0400
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In article , Jeffrey
 writes:

>
>"In early March 1943, a group totalling 500 men of the strongest
>prisoners
>of war were selected in the prisoner of war camp no. 126 in Smolensk in
>order, it was stated, to send them to construction work. Not one of
>these
>prisoners of war ever returned to the camp." 
>
>

This is a transcript of the phony Soviet report from the Soviet Special
Commission that *proved* that the Germans killed the Polish Officers at
Katyn.  It is similar in content to the USSR Special Commissions that
proved the goings on at Majdanek and Auschwitz.  All three reports, as
well as others, were given judicial notice by the IMT.



From ehrlich606@aol.com Mon Jul 15 22:32:50 PDT 1996
Article: 50549 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Jew Who Fought For Hitler
Date: 15 Jul 1996 06:42:36 -0400
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In article <177C21358DS86.BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>,
BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU (borowsky) writes:

>
>In article <4s6tv7$b48@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
>ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) writes:
> 
>>
>>In article ,
>>jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) writes:
>>
>>>
>>>Was there a point you were trying to make?
>>>--
>>
>>Voices from the Third Reich -- by Johannes Steinhoff, Peter Pechel, and
>>Dennis Showalter, Preface by Helmut Schmidt    Da Capo Press (NY:1996,
>>orig. 1989)
>>
>>ISBN 0-306-80594-4
>>
>>The only point I would presume to make is that the Holocaust was a lot
>>more complicated than we think.
> 
>So, extrapolate, generalize, draw some conclusion-- anything.  But
please,
>the point.
> 
> 
>--Bruce Borowsky

Well, looking at from that point of view, what do we find?  First of all,
we find that the Nazi racial state made exceptions when it was in their
interest.  Several thousand Germans of at least some Jewish ethnicity went
unmolested throughout the war.  There were lots of different circumstances
for this.  The point is that Himmleresque conceptions of wiping out all
Jews could be got around, particularly in Germany.  But don't forget Edith
Stein.

There are also several references that you can come across here and there
in the literature about the Third Reich about Germans of some Jewish
ethnicity who served in WW2.  Naturally, this doesn't get a lot of press,
but there are references here and there, particularly in areas -- the
Navy, or the Afrika Korps -- where Nazi political types were not often
found.  The most extraordinary case is that of Erhard Milch, who basically
built Goering's Luftwaffe.  Field Marshal Milch went through his whole
life thinking that he was the son of a Jew.  Until it became illegal to
hold a high position in the Luftwaffe and be a Jew.  Then all of a sudden
it turns out that he was an illegitimate child of his mother's uncle. 
Yeah, right.    

What does this tell me?  It tells me that Germans went to war to defend
their country, and fight and die for it.  It tells me that they weren't
doing it because they were out to kill as many untermenschen as possible. 
That doesn't mean the Nazi state did not arrive at a murderous agenda
eventually.

The second point is that the German people were not a monolith of
anti-semitism.  They made exceptions in their own minds for their own
Jews, time and again.  Often, that wasn't enough.  But it did happen. 
*Willing Executioner* types take note.

Third point is that German Jews were Germans.  They were aware of their
Jewishness, yes, but they loved their country.  In the balance of Nazi
crimes, their treatment of their own co-nationals was the most shameful,
to me.

Of course the ambiguity of Germans and German Jews is well known to those
who know the literature well.  But this is a succinct reminder.



  


From ehrlich606@aol.com Tue Jul 16 02:18:54 PDT 1996
Article: 50584 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: listen up, Alec G.
Date: 15 Jul 1996 06:29:38 -0400
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In article <177C21376FS86.BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>,
BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU (borowsky) writes:

>
>In article <4s6u4r$e69@news1.io.org>
>alec@gryn.org@    (Alec Grynspan) writes:
> 
>>>Ehrlich writes:
>>>If there are lurkers out there -- *if* -- they might even read the
>>>respective web sites or even read some books.  That would be something.
>>>
>>
>>The purpose that you have stated is the official one. The real one is
>>different. In that one Matt has done a great job - for the "wrong" side.
> 
>Right, making Matt the only person who understands how the game works:
>undermining discourse in this environment is discourse, right?
> 
>Matt Giwer is entirely sincere in not perceiving the thoroughness of his
>insincerity, making him that much more sincere.  He is the hierophant of
>gigan-
>tic deception who doesn't understand what he says, the trumpet that sings
>off-key but, being tone-deaf, can't apprehend how far from music he
really
>is.
>Matt Giwer is the unacknowledged legislator of the Internet.
> 
> 
>--Bruce Borowsky

Both Shelley and I bow to your hommage to Le Giwer.  BTW, thank you for
your kind words elsewhere.  I still don't understand what this NG is for,
according to Alec Grynspan.



From ehrlich606@aol.com Tue Jul 16 20:28:37 PDT 1996
Article: 50837 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Post your forensic studies here
Date: 16 Jul 1996 21:55:05 -0400
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In article <4seelj$ff@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU>, rjg@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU
(Richard J. Green) writes:

>
>
>The Crackow team has demonstrated that HCN was present above
>background levels.  Deniers have no explanation for the presence of HCN
>in a facility built after the typhoid epidemic.
>
>If the barracks in which they measured no HCN were never fumigated, why
did
>they measure a higher level in the homicidal gas chambers?
>
>If the barracks were fumigated, why did they measure a higher level in
the
>homicidal gas chambers?
>
>Mr. Giwer will intervene with no answer and will predictably resort to 
>ad hominem attacks.
>
>It should be noted that the researchers used a calibrated method and that
>they discriminated against Prussian blue whose origin is not clear.
>Leuchter did not do so.

The remains that the traces of HCN in Krema II are quite small compared to
the traces _in_ the delousing chambers, and _outside_ the delousing
chambers (whose *Prussian Blue* traces have been *discriminated* against).
Moreover, the traces of HCN in Krema II are comparable to the traces in
the barracks, i.e., very small.

In fact, from what I have seen on this subject, Leuchter, Krakow, and
Rudolf are all in agreement as to the small traces of HCN in Krema II. 
And that's why we have the current explanation, that the HCN was never
allowed to linger in Krema II.

I sincerely doubt that ZB was never used again for fumigation after the
typhus epidemic in 1942.
  


From ehrlich606@aol.com Tue Jul 16 20:28:37 PDT 1996
Article: 50838 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Jew Who Fought For Hitler
Date: 16 Jul 1996 21:55:10 -0400
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In article <4seemh$9uk@atlas.uniserve.com>, hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary
Ostrov) writes:

>
>>Third point is that German Jews were Germans.  They were 
>>aware of their Jewishness, yes, but they loved their country.  
>>In the balance of Nazi crimes, their treatment of their own 
>>co-nationals was the most shameful, to me.
>
>"In the balance of Nazi crimes"?  Are you suggesting that those German
>Jews who became instruments of Nazi crimes did so _willingly_, if so
>what is your evidence for this?  And please do enlighten us regarding
>your criteria for placing Nazi crimes in the continuum of
>"shamefulness."

The *their* in my last sentence refers to the immediate antecedent, Nazis,
and not to the antepenult, German Jews.




From ehrlich606@aol.com Tue Jul 16 21:21:02 PDT 1996
Article: 50850 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: TEST 4 [2/2]
Date: 16 Jul 1996 17:09:45 -0400
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In article <4se1hu$5li@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>, rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU
(Richard J. Green) writes:

>
>In article <4scd79$d2f@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
>Ehrlich606  wrote:
>>In article , Jeffrey
>> writes:
>>
>>>
>>>"In early March 1943, a group totalling 500 men of the strongest
>>>prisoners
>>>of war were selected in the prisoner of war camp no. 126 in Smolensk in
>>>order, it was stated, to send them to construction work. Not one of
>>>these
>>>prisoners of war ever returned to the camp." 
>>>
>>>
>>
>>This is a transcript of the phony Soviet report from the Soviet Special
>>Commission that *proved* that the Germans killed the Polish Officers at
>>Katyn.  It is similar in content to the USSR Special Commissions that
>>proved the goings on at Majdanek and Auschwitz.  All three reports, as
>>well as others, were given judicial notice by the IMT.
>
>Is it Mr. Ehrlich's position that there was no gassing at A-B?  At
>Majdanek?  Which parts of the Soviet reports from these locations does
>Mr. Ehrlich regard as false and why?
>
>Regards,
>
>Rich Green

I have already stated innumerable times that I accept that lethal gassings
occurred.  So much for that.  Which parts of the Soviet reports from
Majdanek and Auschwitz does Mr. Green regard as true and why?  Btw, you
are aware that two of the signatories to the phony Katyn Forest report
also signed the Auschwitz report, and a third signatory to the Auschwitz
report was the renowned *scientist* Trofim Lysenko.  I am sure that Mr.
Green's scientific training has led him through the ideas of that
well-known charlatan at one point or another, if only for entertainment.

 


From ehrlich606@aol.com Tue Jul 16 23:54:07 PDT 1996
Article: 50879 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nyiszli's Memoirs of Auschwitz
Date: 16 Jul 1996 19:44:57 -0400
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In article <4sgogt$rmd@arl-news-svc-4.compuserve.com>,
100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) writes:

>
>rjg@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>
>>Hello all,
>
>>I can't find coughing _per se_ as a symptom of HCN although rapid
>>respiration and convulsions are effects.  I suspect that coughing 
>>would be a symptom of the lachcrymogen, but we can answer that question 
>>by looking it up.
>
>You're right, a cough has nothing to do with the signs, or perhaps
>with a lachrymal additive. A trivial medical handbook among a lot that
>a denier will never care to read:
>
>Acute poisonings with HCN; four stages;
>
>1 / very strong rates: some breathes, faint and a rapid death by
>respiratory arrest;  
>
>2 / acute:
>a) excitation phase:  intense headaches and feelings of burning mouth
>or throat, breath having a bitter almond odor;  dizzinesss and falls;
>nausea and sometime vomitings;  an acceleration of the respiratory
>frequency and sometimes screams (yes, it's painful);
>
>b) phase of depression: dyspnea with some apneas;  subject stupored
>and anguished;
>
>c) phase of convulsions:  epileptic convulsions, faints;
>
>d) phase of paralysis:  deep coma;  irregular and weak pulse, tension
>collapsed;  dyspnea worsening and finally respiratory stop.
>
>Despite the maintenance of O2 the subject has often a grayish
>complexion, an **is cyanosed** (if someone read pink colourness, see
>an eye doctor). The result is a death in 10 to 15 minutes without
>rapid cure.
>
>I don't translate the stages 3 and 4 (often reversible in isolating
>the subject of the source of intoxication).
>
>Maybe it could help, but I'm a liar for anyone unable to go to the
>next bookshop (the one's I translated is 170$ worth. Try the academic
>librarians).
>
>MB.
>
>
>

Thank you, gentlemen, for confirming to me that the coughing fits were a
fake detail.  You have also confirmed that the *blue bodies* is another
fake detail.  Nevertheless, I must insist the Zyklon was mauve.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jul 17 07:36:05 PDT 1996
Article: 50925 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism (was :Re: German hegemony )
Date: 17 Jul 1996 02:30:30 -0400
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In article <4scl8i$ldv@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
(Matt  Giwer) writes:

>
>On 14 Jul 96 10:32:04, alec@gryn.org (Alec Grynspan) wrote:
>
>><*[*] [*] [rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +>
>><+[Holocaust revisionism (was :Re: German hegemony )] [Sat 13 Jul 96
>>13:23][Sun 14 Jul 96 05:44][0]*>
>
>> rSE> Molecular mass has an effect on diffusion, BUT diffusion is
>> rSE> negligible compared to the eddy diffusivity and turbulence is
>> rSE> mass independent to a first approximation.
>
>>It's the action of the gas *PRIOR TO MIXING* that is of concern
>>here.
>
>>During WWI chlorine was an effective poison gas because its high
>>molecular weight caused it to fall near the ground and form a film.
>>It could only be used on windless days because even a small wind
>>would disperse it in the way you mentioned.
>
>>The disaster at Bhopal was similar. A very high molecular weight
>>kept it near the ground. Diffusion and dispersion caused a
>>still-toxic miasma above the film of gas. It was high enough in
>>weight that it would hold together for a while even if there was a
>>slight breeze.
>
>>When you go near an oil refinery or large storage area (or even a
>>not-so-large one), you will smell the "oil" smell. Those are
>>fractions with a molecular weight higher than air.  The lighter
>>fractions drift up and are dispersed rapidly.
>
>>Du Pont's best car paints, literally shipped by pipe from the Ajax
>>Du Pont plant to the adjacent Oshawa GM plant in one case, would put
>>11 gallons of solvents into the air for every gallon that ended up
>>on the car. The venting consisted of large blowers blasting it into
>>the atmosphere and effectively mixing it before the settling effect
>>could occur. Oxidation and UV destroyed the stuff quickly.
>
>>The same holds true for HCN. It doesn't fall - it has a tendency to
>>rise.
>
>>IOW - even if simply released at ground level and not mechanically
>>dispersed, it would (while still unmixed) rise. This would enhance
>>the rate of mixing. Goodbye HCN danger!
>
>>Combined with the fact that it was blasted into the atmosphere by
>>the blowers, HCN would be heavily diluted by the time it got
>>anywhere else. It's dangerous in enclosed areas, not open ones.
>
>>That same "rise" tendency explains some of the statements made by
>>thw witnesses. The stuff is sprinkled in, hits the ground and
>>evaporates out of its carrier. It then rises inside the closed
>>container of the chamber and kills as it builds up from the ground.
>
>>++GMAIL 1.3++ Poor Matt - he is trying, you know. Very trying.
>
>	And in fact you are doing very well.  Every time someone has
pointed out
>that the HCN in those "induction tubes" would rise back up the tube the
>holohuggers have screamed that it would diffuse down and out instead.  
>
>	It is always good to have someone on the "other side" support what
>really would happen.  
>
>	I certainly want to extend my thanks to you for joining into this
>discussion.  You are helping out immensely.  There have been so many
>here without the least idea of the practicalities of engineering.  
>
>
It would be very helpful at this point to have the dimensions and
characteristics of the induction column.  I gather that the tube was a
kind of pipe with a wire mesh netting on the bottom.  But to have the
exact dimensions (diameter, length) would also be helpful.

It would also be good to know how this tube was nestled into the square
lattice-work column described inter alia by Nyiszli.  The dimensions and
characteristics of this column would also be good to know.



From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jul 17 07:36:06 PDT 1996
Article: 50960 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Jew Who Fought For Hitler
Date: 17 Jul 1996 00:55:48 -0400
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In article <31eaa1c1.366115697@news.zilker.net>, mike@aimetering.com (Mike
Curtis) writes:

>
>>Third point is that German Jews were Germans.  They were aware of their
>>Jewishness, yes, but they loved their country.  In the balance of Nazi
>>crimes, their treatment of their own co-nationals was the most shameful,
>>to me.
>>
>
>There was much law to make Jews and gypsies non-Germans. It didn't
>matter how the discriminated felt about their home country. What
>mattered is how the Nazi government defined them and categorized them.
>
>

Am I misunderstood here?  The shame pertains to the German government that
disowned them.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jul 17 10:59:32 PDT 1996
Article: 50985 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: CODOH Website is on line again
Date: 16 Jul 1996 17:21:24 -0400
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In article <4sbjni$775@Networking.Stanford.EDU>, rich@c2.org (Rich Graves)
writes:

>Date:	14 Jul 1996 13:01:54 -0700
>
>dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) writes:
>>As the title says.....
>>
>>http://www.codoh.com/
>
>Groovy.

It is good to have CODOH back.  There is an interesting article there on
Dachau by the way.  It recaps all the pre-trial interrogations about the
*gas chamber.*  Interestingly, none of that made its way into trial
(except a few remarks by Blaha).  I guess that was what Dr. Broszat had in
mind when he made his now *out of date* statement.



From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jul 17 10:59:33 PDT 1996
Article: 50997 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Nazi Plunder Of the Victims, II
Date: 17 Jul 1996 10:52:40 -0400
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Comment:  The below is Keren's post.  It is a letter from a prison warden
describing Jews whose gold teeth are pulled before being shot.  Query: 
What are German Jews doing in Minsk?

The standard line is that all German Jews sent to Minsk are being shot on
arrival (i.e., the famous butcher bills of Kube).  To get to Minsk, German
Jews would have to pass by Theresienstadt, Auschwitz, Majdanek, and
several hundred miles into Byelorussia in order to reach Minsk.

Now as to Kube.  In the first edition of his *Final Solution*, (consult
index under *Kube*), Reitlinger expresses consternation at several
documents published at about that time (1953) concerning Kube's misgivings
over the treatment given German Jews.  I have read these documents in the
original, you can track them via Reitlinger.  One of these is a complaint
about favorable treatment Kube is giving German Jews.  The litany of
complaints reaches a pitch with something about a rumor of him passing out
*bonbons* at Purimtide in 1942.

By the time *They Fought Back* by Yuri Suhl was published (cca. 1962), the
fact of that document was converted in the *memory* of a survivor into an
anecdote of Kube tossing candy onto dead German Jewish children who had
just been murdered in a large pit on the main street of the city. This the
way Martin Gilbert tells the story, *Holocaust*, p. 572.  The fact that
Gilbert doesn't even _reference_ the contrary evidence is a glaring
indication of his lack of historical objectivity in that book.

Meanwhile, the documentation of Kube's attitude towards German Jews is
well documented.  Consult Heinz Hoehne, *Order of the Death's Head* (index
for Kube).  In addition, I remember reading a Jewish author who queried
the *witness* and asked why the Jewish adults left their children alone in
the city, if they knew the pit was there.  The *witness* claimed that it
had been dug in the middle of the night.  The author was not entirely
convinced.  Neither am I.
  

Subject:	Nazi Plunder Of the Victims, II
From:	dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Date:	Thu, 11 Jul 1996 22:45:31 GMT

Letter from prison warden Guenther to the general commissar of white
Ruthenia, Minsk, 31 May 1943
[Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression - Washington, U.S Govt. Print. 
Off., 1946, Vol. VIII, p. 208]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Since that time all German and Russian Jews who were turned to us,
had their golden bridgework, crowns and fillings pulled or broken
out. This happens 1 to 2 hours before the respective action.
 
Since April 13 1943, 516 German and Russian Jews have been finished
off. On the basis of a definitive investigation, gold was taken
only in two actions, on 14 April 1943 from 172, and on 27 April
1943 from 164 Jews. About 50% of the Jews had gold teeth, bridgework
or fillings. Hauptscharfuehrer Ruebe of the security police was always 
personally present and he took the gold along too.
 


From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jul 17 12:44:17 PDT 1996
Article: 51043 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Jew Who Fought For Hitler
Date: 16 Jul 1996 20:48:08 -0400
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In article <4seemh$9uk@atlas.uniserve.com>, hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary
Ostrov) writes:

>
>In <4sd7as$la8@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <177C21358DS86.BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>,
>>BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU (borowsky) writes:
>
>[snip]
>
>>>>
>>>>The only point I would presume to make is that the Holocaust was a lot
>>>>more complicated than we think.
>>> 
>>>So, extrapolate, generalize, draw some conclusion-- anything.  But
>>please,
>>>the point.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>--Bruce Borowsky
>
>>Well, looking at from that point of view, what do we find?  First of
all,
>>we find that the Nazi racial state made exceptions when it was in their
>
>Care to provide some concrete examples of these alleged "exceptions"?

Sure. Read Ernst von Salomon's memoirs, *Fragebogen* and you can found how
he and his Jewish mistress survived the war only to be beaten and raped by
Americans in Bavaria.  Read David Irving's *Rommel* to read about Manfred
Rommel's humiliating memory of being dressed down by his father after
commenting on the Jewishness of a senior officer on Rommel's staff. 
Consult volume 3 of Norman Del Mar's biography of Richard Strauss and read
about how his (*full Jewish*) daughter in law and his two (*half Jewish*)
grandchildren were unmolested throughout the Nazi period.  Consult
Cornelius Ryan's *Last Battle* to read about German Jews who survived in
Berlin [there are much better sources on these so called *submariners* but
I don't remember the titles].  Don't forget the soon to be published
Klemperer memoirs.  Read the book that I quoted from to start this thread,
and don't forget the one about the *half Jew* who won a sporting event in
a Hiter Youth competition and received a medal from Dr. Ley (!) and then
was politely asked to return the medal when it was found out he wasn't
100% Aryan.  He refused, by the way.  This was in 1944.  Neither you nor
Yale should neglect Erhard Milch, the architect of the Luftwaffe, whose
Jewish background has been the object of much gossip, consult Edwin P.
Hoyt, *Goering's Luftwaffe* and David Irving's *Goering* which is based on
among other things Milch's own remembrances.  To my mind, the issue is
moot.  Until he was 40, his father was a Jew.  I wish I could remember
more, particularly the references to the Navy.

>
>>interest.  Several thousand Germans of at least some Jewish ethnicity
went
>>unmolested throughout the war.  There were lots of different
circumstances
>
>What would be your definition of "unmolested", Ehrlich?  Did such
>"fortunate" people outnumber or even equal those who were murdered by
>the Nazis (whether in gas chambers or by any other means)?

Ahem!  Did I say that?

>
>>for this.  The point is that Himmleresque conceptions of wiping out all
>>Jews could be got around, particularly in Germany.  But don't forget
Edith
>>Stein.
>
>Not only "Himmleresque" but "Hitleresque" - or did you forget that
>part, Erhlich? Do take a look at Gord McFee's recent translation of
>the June 15, 1977 (Munich) affidavit from Albert Speer . [ Subject:
>Hitler and the Jews--the Final Solution
>Message-ID: <4sch81$3j5a@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>]

Might as well answer that here.  I wonder why Speer made this *testament*
which admits to virtually nothing.  His ignorance of AB other than a
knowledge that *something bad* is going on, is, to my mind, extremely coy
and totally unbelievable.  The Germans had a major refinery at Monowitz
making synthetic rubber: Speer must have known exactly what was going on
and what was _not_ going on.

>
>Edith Stein? You mean the Jewish woman who became a Carmelite nun -
>and was gassed at Auschwitz in 1942, because she was born Jewish?  Is
>this your idea of how one could have "got around conceptions of
>"wiping out all Jews"?

Flame bait.

>
>>There are also several references that you can come across here and
there
>>in the literature about the Third Reich about Germans of some Jewish
>>ethnicity who served in WW2.  
>
>Oh well, since you don't care to cite these "references." for the time
>being let's just deal with the first part of your post, Ehrlich.  When
>you've answered these questions, perhaps we can move on to deal with
>your other observations.  That is unless you prefer to sing another
>round of The Sounds of Silence.

see above.

>
>But if it isn't too much trouble, you might just clarify the "intent"
>of the following:
>
>>Third point is that German Jews were Germans.  They were 
>>aware of their Jewishness, yes, but they loved their country.  
>>In the balance of Nazi crimes, their treatment of their own 
>>co-nationals was the most shameful, to me.
>
>"In the balance of Nazi crimes"?  Are you suggesting that those German
>Jews who became instruments of Nazi crimes did so _willingly_, if so
>what is your evidence for this?  And please do enlighten us regarding
>your criteria for placing Nazi crimes in the continuum of
>"shamefulness."
>
>
*Their* refers to the immediate antecedent, Nazis, not the antepenult,
German Jews.
I think disloyalty to one's co-nationals is a particularly egregious and
shameful act.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jul 17 14:38:51 PDT 1996
Article: 51058 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: David Irving
Date: 17 Jul 1996 14:57:47 -0400
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In article <4sf1td$s16@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, sf924@aol.com (SF924)
writes:

>
>Mr Erlich:
>
>Do you share David Irving's facist sympathies?
>
>I was struck by your comment that you doubt the number of gassings but
>have no such proof.   Am I to assume that you are unconvinced by Messers.
>Zundel, Smith, Thomas, Raven, Weber and Moran?
>
>I am afraid that you have made an uncomfortable deal with the devil.  You
>want to be perceived as a legitimate thinker and intellectual, but you
>have fallen in with bad company.  And I will resort to name calling.  I
>believe that the above mentioned people are lying propogandists, fascists
>and neo-Nazis.  They hate their fellow man and hold the most obsene views
>on race.  They are evil.  They are the scum of the earth and frankly I
>like saying so. 
>
>

ROTFLMAO!  This is the guy who came on a few weeks ago claiming to be an
attorney who had a few mild questions to ask.  Now he comes back after his
questions have been answered and just wants to get off spurting hatred. 
Be my guest.  I am glad you are in touch with your feelings.

Look, Pal, I have made no devilish deal with anyone.  I am just here.  If
you want to whisper to me that you like talking dirty, excuse me while I
say goodbye.



From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jul 17 14:38:51 PDT 1996
Article: 51063 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photos make Holocaust story rediculous
Date: 17 Jul 1996 15:18:35 -0400
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Subject:	Re: Photos make Holocaust story rediculous
From:	dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Date:	Mon, 15 Jul 1996 17:27:22 GMT

tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:

# Now lets get this straight, thousands of people are 
# gassed in the building, and then the poisonous residue 
# is ventilated into the immediate area of the Germans 
# facilities?

We've been through this before.

There *are* cyanide traces in the building, which proves
cyanide gas *was indeed used there*. 

This means that your claim - that it would have been too
dangerous to use it there - is false.

What can't you understand? 

This is Keren's response.  Comment:  But many contend that the cyanide
traces are totally inadequate to the daily gassings that are supposed to
have occurred there.



From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jul 17 23:20:30 PDT 1996
Article: 51104 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The more things change ...
Date: 16 Jul 1996 19:43:44 -0400
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As to the empirical basis of Lysenko's theory,  biologists today
have no doubt that his experiments were totally worthless [....]  This, of
course, did not affect the debate in the slightest.  Lysenko emerged [...]
as the unquestioned leader of Soviet biological sciences: the few
disciples of idealistic, mystic, scholastic, metaphysical, bourgeois,
formal genetics were irrevocably crushed.  All institutions, journals, and
publishing enterprises concerned with biology were put under the authority
of Lysenko and his helpers, and for many years there was no question of
any defender of the chromosome theory of heredity (_ex hypothesi_ a
Fascist, racist, metaphysician, etc.) being allowed to speak in public or
appear in print. 

The more things change, the more they stay the same ....

source: Leszek Kolakowski, *Main Currents of Marxism*, vol. 3, NY:1981, p.
138


From ehrlich606@aol.com Thu Jul 18 07:20:59 PDT 1996
Article: 51166 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Characteristics of Soviet Culture & Science
Date: 18 Jul 1996 03:48:13 -0400
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Question: What were the characteristics of the Soviet culture and science
that was able to claim, in studies given judicial notice by the IMT, that
at least 8.5 million people were gassed and then incinerated with scarcely
a trace at just three camps: Treblinka, Majdanek, and Auschwitz?

In general the so-called discussions of the Stalin period the
philosophical aspects of physics and other sciences were destructive and
anti-scientific not because they treated of unreal problems but because in
the confrontation [....] of scholars on the one hand and party ideologists
on the other, the latter were assured of victory by the support or the
state and its police apparatus. p. 135

Comment: in other words, scientific truth was handmaiden to politics.

In many fields of life, though not in all, there was an individual
who was known as the *greatest* in his line.  Apart from the many
instances in which Stalin himself held the top position [....] it was
known, for example, who was the greatest painter, biologist, and circus
clown.  (The circus, incidentally, had been ideologically reformed in 1949
by an article in Pravda which condemned bourgeois formalism in this
domain.  There were, it appeared, some performers who lapsed into
cosmopolitan forms of humour, without ideological content, and tried
simply to make people laugh instead of educating them to deal with the
class enemy.) p. 148-149

Comment: mutatis mutandis!

This atmosphere naturally bred all kinds of scientific
impostors who proclaimed their achievements in suitably patriotic
language.  Lysenko was the most famous, but there were many others.  A
biologist named Olga Lepeshinskaya announced in 1950 that she had
succeeded in producing live cells from inanimate organic substances, and
this was acclaimed by the Press as proof of the superiority of Soviet
science over the bourgeois kind. [....]  After Stalin's death a still more
sensational article appeared in Pravda to the effect that a machine had
been constructed in a Saratov factory which gave out more energy than it
consumed -- thus finally disposing of the second law of thermodynamics and
at the same time confirming Engels's statement that the energy dispersed
in the universe must also be concentrated somewhere (in the Saratov
factory, to be specific.) p. 149-150

Comment: mutatis mutandis!

Stalin's philosophy was admirably suited to the parvenu
bureaucratic mentality, in both form and content.  Thanks to his
exposition anyone could become a philosopher in half an hour, not only in
full possession of the truth but aware of all the absurd and nonsensical
ideas of bourgeois philosophers.  Kant, for instance, said it was
impossible to know anything.  But we Soviet people know lots of things,
and so much for Kant.  Hegel said the world changes, but he thought the
world consisted of ideas, whereas anyone can see that we have around us
are not ideas but things.  The Machists said that the desk I am sitting at
is in my head, but obviously my head is in one place and the desk in
another.  p. 151

Comment: mutatis mutandis!

Source: *Main Currents of Marxism*, vol. 3,  Leszek Kolokowski,
Oxford:1981.



From ehrlich606@aol.com Thu Jul 18 07:21:00 PDT 1996
Article: 51167 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Lysenko: Hero of Soviet Science
Date: 18 Jul 1996 03:48:14 -0400
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A relevant post for those who believe in Soviet *Integrity* --

The demand that natural science should confine itself to subjects
of immediate technical use was highly damaging to important branches of
research, and this very soon made itself felt in technology as well.  Even
more pernicious, however, were attempts to exercise ideological control
over the actual results of scientific investigation, in the name of
Marxist *correctness.*

Comment:  does any of this sound familiar?

[The 1930's] saw the rise of Trofim D. Lysenko, whose
mission was to revolutionize Soviet biological science in accordance with
Marxist Leninism and to explode the *bourgeois* theories of Mendel and TH
Morgan.  Lysenko, an agronomist, had explored various techniques of plant
breeding and decided, early in his career, to develop them into a
universal theory of Marxist genetics.  After 1935, together with his
assistant I. I. Prezent, he attacked the modern genetic theory and claimed
that hereditary influences could be almost completely eliminated by
appropriate changes in the environment: genes were a bourgeois invention,
as was the distinction between genotype and phenotype.  It was not hard to
convince the party leaders and Stalin himself that [such] a theory [....]
was in accordance with Marxist Leninism (*everything changes*) and was
admirably suited to the ideology which maintained that human beings,
especially *Soviet man*, could transform nature in any way they had a mind
to.

Comment: including gassing and incinerating 8.5 million people in three
locations with scarcely a trace, perhaps.

... Lysenko rapidly secured party support and exercised a
growing influence on research institutes, academicians, journals, etc.
until, as we shall see, his revolutionary theory achieved a complete
triumph in 1948.  Party propaganda extolled his discoveries incessantly
>from  about 1935 onwards, and those who objected that his experiments were
scientifically worthless were soon put to silence.  The eminent genetician
Nikolay I. Vavilov, who refused to subscribe to the new theory, was
arrested in 1940 and perished in the Kolyma concentration camp.

As per this NG, Lysenko was a signatory to the Soviet Special Commission
on Auschwitz, submitted by the Soviets as USSR-8, and given judicial
notice by the IMT.  Lysenko was no doubt consulted as to the truth of the
several medical allegations contained therein.

Source:  Leszek Kolakowski, *Main Currents of Marxism*, vol. 3, NY:1981,
p. 102f



From ehrlich606@aol.com Thu Jul 18 07:21:01 PDT 1996
Article: 51175 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Bookburnings!
Date: 18 Jul 1996 05:48:33 -0400
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In article <15JUL199622204298@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>,
dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) writes:

>> 
>>Ok, I am the first one:  I condemn book burnings!
>> 
>>Who's next?  I want to see scores of people joining with me on this.
>
>    I will share your condemnation and do you one better.  I bet if you
>    offered to scan essays from the book into the computer that Nizkor
>    would be willing to archive them (should copyright issues be worked
>    out.)  Do you want to take the lead with the publisher and see if
they
>    will permit essays from the book to be readily available online?
>
>    NB: I can't speak for Nizkor, but archiving these essays is
consistent
>    with their actions in the past.
>
>                         daniel david mittleman 

The unity that all of us here have about Free Speech is one of the most
gratifying aspects of this News Group to me, personally.  I join you in
this condemnation of book burning, indeed, I condemned it two weeks ago. 
Secondly, CODOH is apparently in the process of posting all of the
contents of this outlaw book, and is I believe working on translating them
as well. Kudos to CODOH?


From ehrlich606@aol.com Thu Jul 18 07:21:02 PDT 1996
Article: 51185 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Jew Who Fought For Hitler
Date: 17 Jul 1996 23:03:50 -0400
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In article <4see7v$g10@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken)
writes:

>
>>   ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) writes:
>
>>  Well, looking at from that point of view, what do we find?  First of
all,
>>  we find that the Nazi racial state made exceptions when it was in
their
>>  interest.  Several thousand Germans of at least some Jewish ethnicity
went
>>  unmolested throughout the war.  There were lots of different
circumstances
>>  for this.  The point is that Himmleresque conceptions of wiping out
all
>>  Jews could be got around, particularly in Germany.  But don't forget
Edith
>>  Stein.
>
>	It should be noted that the passage you quoted also makes it clear
that 
>German soldiers not involved with the politics of the nazi party also
found 
>shooting random Jews was socially acceptable behavior in the Third Reich.
>This 
>is, in fact, strong support for Goldhagen's thesis that the nazi attitude
>about Jews 
>permeated to all levels of German culture.

I disagree.  Goldhagen spends a lot of space arguing for the development
of a pervasive eliminationist ideology.  The German Jewish hero of this
story never would have been in the situation he was in, let alone survived
it, if the eliminationist ideology was as pervasive as Goldhagen argues.

Our hero has his turn after being hospitalized and hearing mass shootings
in the area.  From context, we infer that the people being shot were Jews.
 (I don't know whether the perpetrators were SD, SS, Police, or
Wehrmacht).  Obviously, such actions carried out in the state's name are
going to brutalize anyone who witnesses or takes part.  That is my
interpretation of the four privates.

>
>	There is a famous passage from -- if I remember correctly --
Himmler's 
>Posnan speech in which he complains that every German had their "favorite

>Jew."  Al you have done is pointed out that he seems to have been
correct.
>The 
>ordinary Germans were willing to kill random Jews that they did not know
just
>to 
>test a gun but balked at killing someone they did know.

*All that I have pointed out* ?  That his commanding officer couldn't care
less?  That he returns home and is not bothered for the rest of the war? 
Where is that kind of exceptionalism in Goldhagen?

Himmler's speech is probably accurate.  He is trying to idealize mass
murders so that the SS will continue to perform them and not feel guilty
about it.  Obviously, they do not feel comfortable with it, otherwise they
wouldn't require his encouragement.

>>  
>>  What does this tell me?  It tells me that Germans went to war to
defend
>>  their country, and fight and die for it.  It tells me that they
weren't
>>  doing it because they were out to kill as many untermenschen as
possible. 
>>  That doesn't mean the Nazi state did not arrive at a murderous agenda
>>  eventually.
>
>	Then how to explain the willingness of the soldiers to kill a few
Jews 
>just to test their new toy.

Then how do you explain his commanding officer, or the German Jewish
private himself?  What was their motivation in fighting?  My two versus
your four.

>
>>  
>>  The second point is that the German people were not a monolith of
>>  anti-semitism.  They made exceptions in their own minds for their own
>>  Jews, time and again.  Often, that wasn't enough.  But it did happen. 
>>  *Willing Executioner* types take note.
>
>
>	But they were, as you posted, willing to kill random Jews that
they did 
>not know.

Four privates were willing to kill Jews they did not know, in the context
of the wake of mass shootings that probably killed thousands of Jews. 
Again, my two against your four.



From ehrlich606@aol.com Thu Jul 18 07:21:02 PDT 1996
Article: 51187 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another word on Dachau
Date: 18 Jul 1996 05:13:06 -0400
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In article <4se1cr$5jn@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>, rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU
(Richard J. Green) writes:

>
>Silence from Mr. Ehrlich: why is that?
>
>In article <4s19sg$4hg@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU>,
>Richard J. Green  wrote:
>>In article <4s128f$sl@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
>>Ehrlich606  wrote:
>>
>>>In article <4s0oas$3of@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU>, rjg@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU
>>>(Richard J. Green) writes:
>>>
>>>>In article <4ruvv1$5kj@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
>>>>Ehrlich606  wrote:
>>>>>In article <4ru86b$210@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU>, rjg@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU
>>>>>(Richard J. Green) writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>No one in this newsgroup to my knowledge has claimed that gassings
>>>"such
>>>>>>as those at Auschwitz, Treblinka and other camps" occurred at
Dachau.
>>>>>>What has been asserted is that experimental gassings _may_ have
taken
>>>>>>place at Dachau.  
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Rich Green
>>>>>
>>>>>I will go along with that assertion.  But why *may*? In other words,
why
>>>>>bring up Dachau at all?  My thinking is because there were assertions
in
>>>>>1945 or thereabouts that gassings took place but that these
assertions
>>>>>have been dropped.  It seems no one wants to state clearly that there
>>>were
>>>>>any propaganda lies told about Germany in WW2.  I find it hard to
>>>believe
>>>>>that there were _none_.
>>>>
>>>>The reason, Mr. Ehrlich, is that we are interested in the truth here.
No
>>>>one has stated that there were no propaganda lies about Germany.  It's
>>>>just that the existence and possible use of a gas chamber at Dachau
>>>>wasn't one of them.  The RIF soap story probably was one (although I'm
>>>>not clear whether it was propaganda or just rumor).  Why is Mr.
Ehrlich
>>>>so eager to show propaganda lies?  Couldn't it be the case the
previous
>>>>assertions were merely in error?  

*Mere error* is very charitable.  Some of that, I am sure.  And also some
malicious lying.
>>
>>>Using the atrocity propaganda from WW1 as a known control, I would
expect
>>>that some of the atrocities alleged against Germans in WW2 would also
be
>>>false.  
>>
>>Quote one person from this group who has said otherwise, please.
>>
>>>The problem is that -- as I have noted before -- there is an
>>>unwillingness to grant this point in any explicit fashion on any point.

>>
>>I have not seen evidence of deliberate false atrocity stories.
>>Undoubtedly, they exist.  On each point, however, one must look at where
>>the evidence leads.
>>
>>
>>>Similarly, as with the soap story -- which you brought up -- there
seems
>>>an unwillingness to admit the rather obvious problems with Mazur's
>>>testimony (and he was the sole *eyewitness*.)
>>
>>As you know there are two soap stories.  No one on this group has
>>claimed that there is truth to the RIF story.  What exactly are the
>>obvious problems with Mazur's testimony?

According to the *Soap* files on Nizkor, the soap making rumors began in a
wartime Polish source that claimed that soap was made from fat, and that
other body parts (blood serum, etc.) were also being used.  I assume this
was the original basis of the RIF rumors.

After war, the Soviets made the charge at Nuremberg.  They claimed that
Dr. Spanner of the Danzig Institute was making soap at the Institute, that
he carved his recipe, which he got from some people in the countryside,
onto a wooden plaque and had it posted on the wall of the basement. 
Nobody else at the Institute knew anything about it.  About 25 kilos of
this soap was prepared, which Dr. Spanner supposedly used for his laundry
and also to wash himself.  In addition, there were vats of human skin that
were being tanned for handbags and such.  The source for all this was the
affidavit of Mazur.  I would love to have all of Mazur's
affidavit/testimony posted.

Dr. Spanner lived in West Germany after the war.  He was investigated on
at least two occasions (the second probably precipitated by the fact that
West Germany had achieved sovereignty in the meantime, in 1955).  He was
never charged, and I don't think he ever lost his medical license either. 
After reading what is in the Nizkor *Soap* files, the only thing I would
say is that if there was a _shred_ of truth to these claims, Spanner at
the very least should have been forcibly and even extra-legally
institutionalized in a home for the criminally insane.  But I repeat,
there were no reprisals at all.  I consider the evidence and affidavit
improbable to say the least.  The failure to pursue charges against Dr.
Spanner clinches the case for me.        

>>
>>>>As far as bringing up Dachau, it was _your "side"_, i.e. the
>>>>distortionists, who brought it up, Mr. Ehrlich.  Either you or Matt
>>>>Giwer claimed that there was no gas chamber at Dachau.  It would be
>>>>dishonest not to correct that claim when there is evidence for such a
>>>>chamber and some claims that it _may_ have been used.  This is not
about
>>>>propaganda value, Mr. Ehrlich, this is about truth and those who
>>>>willfully distort it.
>>
>>>Actually, I think it was Richard Widmann who brought the matter up with
>>>appropriate quotes from Martin Broszat and Simon Wiesenthal.  I don't
>>>think it is willful distortion to point out that there is not unanimity
on
>>>this topic.  Indeed, I would also like to know what specific evidence
you
>>>consider so decisive for _your_ position versus that taken by Broszat
and
>>>Wiesenthal.
>>
>>And what do you claim is my position?
>>
>>>And while we are on the subject, I would like someone to tell me more
>>>about the Dachau gas chamber.  Was it designed as a CO or Zyklon
chamber? 
>>>If the latter, perhaps the construction far enough along for useful
>>>comparisons to the A-B chambers. Or perhaps was it designed in some
other
>>>way for some other gases.
>>
>>I don't know what it was designed for.  I understand that it was to be
>>used for experimentation with combat gases at one point.  Perhaps, Mr.
>>Van Alstine or Dr. Keren can help here.

By all means!  And while they are at it they can refute Carlos Porter's
article on the CODOH site which enumerates all of the references to the
Dachau gas chamber in the pre-trial interrogations.  The Dachau Report of
5/7/45 contains numerous references to the gas chamber.  The trial of
November, 1945 was different. 

 There is no mention of any has chamber in the prosecution opening
statement, summation, or judgment.  No mention in the defence summations. 
No mention in the testimony except for a few sentences in the testimony of
Dr. Blaha.  Not one of the 40 defendants was asked a single question
concerning any gas chamber.  Dr. Blaha testified twice.  In his second
appearance as witness during prosecution *rebuttal*, he also makes no
mention of any gas chamber. [....]  The existence of a gas chamber at
Dachau was not upheld in the judgment at Nuremberg. 


>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Rich Green



From ehrlich606@aol.com Thu Jul 18 12:21:19 PDT 1996
Article: 51243 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Jew Who Fought For Hitler
Date: 18 Jul 1996 09:33:30 -0400
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In article <177C5F649S86.BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>, BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
(borowsky) writes:

>
>In article <4sd7as$la8@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
>ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) writes:
> 
>> [ . . . . ]
>>
>>There are also several references that you can come across here and
there
>>in the literature about the Third Reich about Germans of some Jewish
>>ethnicity who served in WW2.  Naturally, this doesn't get a lot of press
>>[ . . . .] The most extraordinary case is that of Erhard Milch, who
>basically
>>built Goering's Luftwaffe.  Field Marshal Milch went through his whole
>>life thinking that he was the son of a Jew.  Until it became illegal to
>>hold a high position in the Luftwaffe and be a Jew.  Then all of a
sudden
>>it turns out that he was an illegitimate child of his mother's uncle.
>>Yeah, right.
> 
>But this, I think, would have made Milch a Mischlinge (of the second
degree?)
>not legally Jewish under the Nuremburg laws.  And there were other cases
of
>the Nazi party granting an influential officer like Milch Aryan status.

He would have been a *half Jew* (first degree) and liable, if someone
(namely, Goering) had turned him in.  Goering didn't, and Milch stood up
for Goering at Nuremberg.  BTW, I have heard other sources claiming that
it was his _mother_ who was Jewish.  (Encyclopedia of Third Reich).

> 
>Also, even if Milch maintained his father was Jewish doesn't mean that he
>idnetified with the Jewish community:  another important requirement in
>determining Jewishness under the Nuremburg laws.

Oh, exactly.  But the argument goes that anyone with a drop of Jewish
blood (biologism, here) could or would get sent to AB.  And again, I
pointed out that it didn't work for Edith Stein.  She was a *full Jew* and
a convert, but she was still killed.

> 
>>What does this tell me?  It tells me that Germans went to war to defend
>>their country, and fight and die for it.  It tells me that they weren't
>>doing it because they were out to kill as many untermenschen as
possible.
>>That doesn't mean the Nazi state did not arrive at a murderous agenda
>>eventually.
>>
>>The second point is that the German people were not a monolith of
>>anti-semitism.  They made exceptions in their own minds for their own
>>Jews, time and again.  Often, that wasn't enough.  But it did happen.
>>*Willing Executioner* types take note.
>>
>> [ . . . . ]
> 
>First, you may want to expand on the "exceptions made . . . time and
>again".  The question, naturally, is how many does this really make.

OK, so you don't want references.  The literature on *submariners*
indicates that tens of thousands survived one way or the other.  What this
suggests to me is that the Nazi party would make exceptions.  And that
means that the *racial state* at least as far as Germany was concerned was
somewhat hypocritical.  In my opinion, the focus in Nazi propaganda was
more on Ostjuden (Eastern, that is, Polish or Russian Jews) than on German
Jews.  I don't think it is a coincidence that that community suffered the
most.

But nevertheless the fact that the Nazis could countenance *racial*
behavior to their own citizens.  That is really unforgiveable in my book. 
And many German Jews died, because of the Third Reich.    

> 
>But I can accept part of what you're saying.  Germans were not all
monsters.
>Still I'm not convinced that your defense is entirely relevant.  It's
less
>important that we measure the personal responsibility each German (of the
>era), than we ask that culture to account for its acceptance of an
ideology
>that, even if not specifically Nazi, was held largely in common by them
and
>assisted in the deportation of Jews.  This ideology (again different from
>Nazi ideology) may not have advocated the death camps or the mobile
killing
>units, but it understood and accepted the ethical violence of Nazism.

This is all very vague.  You say it is not as important to indict
individuals as it is to indict the culture.  But this is an invitation to
collective responsibility.  I mean, what is German culture, except
everyone comprising it, including the German Jews?  No, I don't buy this. 
If the Germans were Chinese they would have used Confucius to justify what
they were doing.

Also, I don't buy this shadow ideology of *ethical violence*.  Look, the
Nazis promised to put people to work, raise the standard of living, and
avenge Versailles.  In addition, they promised to *get the Jews* who
supposedly were responsible for unemployment, poor living standards, and
Versailles.  The people bought into it.  I don't consider that an
indictment of the people or the culture.  Anymore than I consider
Stalinism an indictment of the Russian people or Russian culture (I know
he was Georgian.)

Germany, Italy, Russia -- all became dictatorships under police control. 
Once those governments were in place, it was not easy to fight it.  So,
you went along, and tried not to see or believe what you saw or heard.  I
find that a credible explanation.

There were fanatics and killers in all three countries.  As there always
are in all countries.  And they are usually a small percentage.  But it
this case that small percentage was over represented in power positions.  
 

> 
>In other words, even if Germans did not approve of the killings and
depor-
>tations, even if they weren't aware of them (whatever degree), they
neverthe-
>less understood that in order to lay claim to citizenship, one could not,
>under
>any circumstances, be fully, openly Jewish-- there were grave penalties
for
>that.

Sure they understood that.  Many didn't think it was an insurmountable
problem: look at Richard Strauss' or Furtwangler's contacts with German
Jewish artists like Schnabel.  Others were ashamed about it, but they were
afraid.  Read the book  *Voices*  there are some apt anecdotes that
illustrate this.

> 
>Otherwise why would Milch et al feel the need to erase their Jewishness
in
>the first place?  The ideology, the principal assumptions that Germans
>agreed to under Nazi rule I think is a more important object of
attention.

My readings on this suggests that while many agreed that *something had to
be done* (not a sentiment to be proud of, but not equal to murder), many
others thought the racial stuff was stupid and would blow over in time. 
Many German Jews made this mistake as well.
> 
>>Of course the ambiguity of Germans and German Jews is well known to
those
>>who know the literature well.  But this is a succinct reminder.
> 
>Oh, tantalizingly succint.  Do go on.
> 

What more do you want?


From ehrlich606@aol.com Thu Jul 18 16:42:30 PDT 1996
Article: 51268 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: 18 Jul 1996 00:52:24 -0400
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In article ,
jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) writes:

>
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>
>> redcloud@leland.Stanford.EDU (Richard James Green) wrote:
>> 
>> > When the silica gel is completely dry, it is
>> > blue.  When it becomes wet, it is pink.  When the dessicant just
starts
>>  >to go bad, it has a purplish color; one might even say mauve.
>> 
>>         But we know from the Degesh document on the formulation used
for
>> fumigation that the carrier was wood pulp.  So there is no need to
bring
>> this into the discussion.  It is not relevent.
>
>Ehrlich606, did you see this?
>
>Is this the kind of "skepticism" you approve of?

Yes.  Matt has argued, and I don't see a hole in his argument, that the
document he quotes on ZB specifically references wood snippets and NOT
Erco cubes.

>
>We have seen an explanation of how the Erco, the silica gel, might well
>appear blue to some people and mauve to others -- mauve being just a
>shade of purple-pink.  It seems like quite a convincing explanation to
>me.  It eliminates any doubts I may have had about whether the
>description of Zyklon as "mauve" indicated that the witness had never
>in fact seen the Zyklon in the first place.

*might well* is not *is*.  I am glad that you have no more doubts.  The
problem is that the color change is precisely the opposite of what it
should be.  *Wet* ZB, according to this, would be pink.  *Dry* (or
outgassed) ZB would be blue.  You can talk about this until you are mauve
in the face, but blue is not mauve nor is it pink.  Nor are wood snippets
ERCO cubes.

>
>(In fact, it reinforces that the witness _did_ see the Zyklon.  If
>everyone told _exactly_ the same story about what Zyklon looked like,
>using _exactly_ the same words or very close, we might start to suspect
>that they were repeating a line that had been fed to them.  But if their
>stories differ on small details like these, and if there are reasonable
>explanations for those differences, it must logically be chalked up to
>the normal vagarities of eyewitnesses -- perhaps they saw different
>colors, as is probably the case here, or perhaps they saw the same color
>and described it differently.  Either way, it underscores that they were
>in fact witnesses to what they said they were witnesses to, which is the
>exact opposite of the point you were trying to make.)

*vagaries* and this is nonsensical.  Whether or not color is relevant is
another issue.  If a cop asks what color car the killer was driving, and
five people say blue, and then a sixth says red, then, according to you,
he knows they were all telling the truth.  Fine.  So what color car does
he look for?  Mauve?
>
>So, let's review.  What we know is that a form of Zyklon existed which
>fits the descriptions given by _all_ the eyewitnesses:  lustrous,
>granular, and (to the lay viewer) crystalline.  Its range of colors fits
>in with the range of colors given by _all_ the eyewitnesses:  blue,
>bluish, bluish-white, bluish-gray, and, your latest discovery, mauve.
>
>There were also at least two other forms of Zyklon, discs and diatomite,
>which do not fit the descriptions of the substance as given by the
>eyewitnesses.

That's right!
>
>The logical thing to do would be to conclude, until and unless
>information to the contrary becomes available, that the first form of
>Zyklon, Erco, was the form that was being described by the witnesses.
>Occam's Razor.  Only an idiot would consider the possibility that maybe
>one of the _other_ forms was really being used and that the descriptions
>given were all lies and frauds.

Occam's Razor?  That could cut both ways here.  You could say that
everyone is telling the truth, as you have just done, or you could say
that they are all liars.  Or you could say that it doesn't matter.  I
haven't made up my mind.  

Let's talk Occam's Razor with regard to Nyiszli.  He is totally wrong on
the dimensions of the Krema.  He is wrong about the coloration of the
corpses.  He is wrong about the hacking cough caused by the Zyklon.  He is
wrong about the number of ovens.  He is wrong about the push cart into the
ovens.  He is wrong about the Vistula.  He makes no mention of the
induction tubes.  He overstates his numbers consistently -- that's
according to Pressac.

Now why would anyone believe his assertion that the color of ZB is mauve?

>
>But that is exactly what Giwer has done here.
>
[big cut setting up attack on Giwer]
>
>This is exactly what Giwer has done here.  And has done in the past. 
>And continues to do.  A deliberate ignoring of the facts and attempting
>to find something -- anything -- wrong with them.
>
>Yet you say you are in "general agreement" with Giwer's "skepticism."
>You mention his insane, idiotic, dishonest, ridiculous assertions, and
>then you say that while you think a given detail about testimonies is
>"problematic," Giwer, on the other hand, "with greater assurance,
>dismisses it categorically.  So what?"  (Full context in
><4scdrq$d97@newsbf02.news.aol.com>.)
>
>So what?  Well, um, to any normal person who would witness this
>exchange, Giwer is just another Usenet kook -- there are lots of them
>around.  He's a liar and a troll, and anything he says is not to be
>trusted.  The fact that you describe his defiance of logic and evidence
>as "assurance," and dismiss the difference in your opinions with a "so
>what?" speaks clearly.
>
>Ehrlich, I strongly suggest you reconsider your position on Giwer.  You
>have chosen to ally yourself with his pseudo-"skepticism" of him.  Your
>claim is essentially identical to DvdThomas's:  that "skepticism" is
>your only raison d'etre on this forum.  Yet, like him, you persist in
>defending stubborn bury-head-in-sand-ism and attacking that which is
>striving for reason and examination of evidence.  I'm afraid that if
>that attitude persists, your credibility here will dwindle frighteningly
>quickly.  And rightfully so.

My alliance with the revisionist approach stems from the fact that I don't
like orthodoxy in anything, especially in a field where there are in my
mind many loose ends.  I am not Matt's father.  I don't control, nor am I
responsible for his behavior.  But I am in agreement with his approach.  I
don't think he is a troll. You do.  That's about it, as far as I can see. 
You don't like my attitude of defending him? And what are you
recommending? Collective responsibility?

>
>I would call Giwer's approach to evidence and proof "bull-headed,
>deliberate twisting of fact to attempt to support a foregone
>conclusion."  You have called that same thing "skepticism" and simply
>having "greater assurance" than us rational people.  Do you still say
>"so what?"

Jamie: I am not Matt.  Nor am I a doppelganger for Matt because I defend
his right to be skeptical about Holocaust revisionism in a News Group
devoted to Holocaust revisionism.

>
>Do you still think that "skepticism" is the best description of Giwer's
>outlook?
>
>And are you still in "general agreement" with that "skepticism"?
>
>

Yes, I am.  Thank you.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Thu Jul 18 17:17:55 PDT 1996
Article: 51272 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Discussion with Giwer begins
Date: 18 Jul 1996 16:57:58 -0400
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In article <31ed0ff1.525419086@news.zilker.net>, mike@aimetering.com (Mike
Curtis) writes:

>
>ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:
>
>>In article ,
>>jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) writes:
>>
>>>
>>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>>
>>>> jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> > Please explain why you think the quote in question is "in the same
>>>> > league" as the homicidal gassings.  It has been demonstrated that
>>>> > evidence for gassing includes eyewitness testimony, which this is
>>>> > not, along with confessions of the perpetrators, and corroborating
>>>> > physical evidence.
>>>> 
>>>> Even if you insist upon confounding testimony with evidence these are
>>>> both testimony and therefore in the same league, category or whatever
>>>> you may wish to call it.
>>>
>>>Let's be absolutely clear about this.  You, Matt Giwer, are saying that
>>>the following quote is eyewitness testimony:
>>>
>>>  "It was in 1942 [at Belsen] that the special electrical appliances
>>>   were built in for mass extermination of people. Under the pretext
>>>   that the people were being led to the bath-house, the doomed were
>>>   undressed and then driven to the building where the floor was
>>>   electrified in a special way; there they were killed."
>>>   
>>>   IMT VII, pp. 576-577.
>>>
>>>Is that correct?
>>>
>>>> You are, however, lacking physical evidence of gassing for the
>>testimony
>>>> to corroborate (note the correct order not vice versa) as we have
been
>>>> over many times.  
>>>
>>>Yes, we have been over this many times, and long before you arrived
>>>in this forum, Mr. Giwer.  You're wrong about there not being physical
>>>evidence, and you're wrong about which comes first.  Furthermore, you
>>>have ignored the fact that there are numerous confessions to gassing
>>>and to witnessing gassing, and there are none to this electrified
>>>floor.
>>>
>>>But those are side issues and I refuse to get distracted.
>>>
>>>Simply confirm for me that you are claiming that the quote above is
>>>eyewitness testimony.  We can start from there.
>>>
>>>There is eyewitness testimony of the gassings, so if the quote given
>>>above is not eyewitness testimony, then we have already established
that
>>>it is not "in the same league" as the gassings, and there is no need to
>>>go any further.
>>>
>>>Posted;  not emailed for reasons stated previously.
>>
>>This is an excerpt from one of those Polish books.  Obviously it is
keyed
>>to eyewitness observations of some kind.  So are the USSR reports on
>>Majdanek and Auschwitz, which were also given judicial notice at
>>Nuremberg.
>
>>  All of these sources _claimed_ to be the result of
>>investigations.
>
>And the evidence for there not being an investigation is. . .????
>
>>  The current location of the source materials for these
>>investigations is (apparently) unknown. (natch!)
>>
>
>What source materials were named and presented are these?
>
>
>

In other words, the Soviets and Poles compiled reports or digests (the
Black Books and other colored books were similar), which were supposed to
be compilations of affidavits, interrogations, testimonies, and so forth. 
The Soviet Special Commissions were supposed to have been compiled from
similar sources, including judicial proceedings.  However, none of this
stuff is reflected in the reports themselves, which are usually little
more than expositions of facts that are assumed true.  Consult Test 4/2 on
the board, which reproduces the Katyn Forest Special Commission study.
According to what I have heard of his book, Pressac sought the background
materials for the Auschwitz Special Commission and was unable to locate
these files.

So what you are left with is the word of the Soviet government that they
wouldn't have cooked any reports.  No, not them, even though the Katyn
Forest report is now known to be a lie, even though the NKVD had a special
department devoted to forgeries, even though Roman Rudenko is known as one
of the greatest forgers of the 20th Century, even though two of the
signatories to the Auschwitz Special Commission also signed off on the
Katyn Forest Special Commission, and even though a quack scientist,
Lysenko, also signed off on the Auschwitz Special Commission report.



From ehrlich606@aol.com Thu Jul 18 23:20:58 PDT 1996
Article: 51311 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Characteristics of Soviet Culture & Science
Date: 19 Jul 1996 00:19:14 -0400
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In article , hce@magmacom.com (Howard
Eisenberger) writes:

>                          ...
>
>Thus the true question raised by those who are
>troubled by the "revisionist" arguments - and some of those who are
>troubled are in good faith - is not that of the validity of one trial
>or another. In the last analysis, they would be willing to reject all
>such trials. What is difficult for them to admit is that the official
>truth, sanctioned by the decisions of the highest courts, by the
>discourse of chiefs of state, in both the West and the East, should
>also be, exceptionally, the truth pure and simple.

All of this is well and good, but NOBODY maintains quite a bit of the
conclusions in Soviet Special Commissions USSR-8 (Auschwitz) and USSR-54
(Majdanek) to say nothing of the Katyn Forest Commission.  The fact that
these reports were not contested does not mean that they were true, *pure
and simple*, because they are not.

BTW, thank you for your reading extracts.  These were good.



From ehrlich606@aol.com Fri Jul 19 07:29:24 PDT 1996
Article: 51342 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another word on Dachau
Date: 19 Jul 1996 00:37:09 -0400
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In article <4smuvt$52o@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU>, rjg@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU
(Richard J. Green) writes:

>
>>After war, the Soviets made the charge at Nuremberg.  They claimed that
>>Dr. Spanner of the Danzig Institute was making soap at the Institute,
that
>>he carved his recipe, which he got from some people in the countryside,
>>onto a wooden plaque and had it posted on the wall of the basement. 
>>Nobody else at the Institute knew anything about it.  About 25 kilos of
>>this soap was prepared, which Dr. Spanner supposedly used for his
laundry
>>and also to wash himself.  In addition, there were vats of human skin
that
>>were being tanned for handbags and such.  The source for all this was
the
>>affidavit of Mazur.  I would love to have all of Mazur's
>>affidavit/testimony posted.
>
>Yes, please do post this testimony.  I would like to see why you claim
>there are obvious problems with Mazur's testimony.
>

I just did.  You are telling me that you believe what I just posted.  That
settles that!  As for the testimony, I don't have it, perhaps you could
ask Nizkor to post it.  It should have come towards the end of February,
1946.  Naturally, Nuremberg historians do not reference this particular
affidavit/testimony very often(!), so I can't be more specific than that.

Not only do you believe everything I just posted, you also believe that
there is nothing surprising about the fact that Dr. Spanner was unmolested
for the rest of his life, not even being subjected to
institutionalization.  OK. 



From ehrlich606@aol.com Fri Jul 19 07:29:25 PDT 1996
Article: 51344 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Characteristics of Soviet Culture & Science
Date: 18 Jul 1996 17:28:31 -0400
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In article , hce@magmacom.com (Howard
Eisenberger) writes:

>----------------------------------------------------------------
>Pierre Vidal-Naquet,
>Un Eichmann de Papier (1980) - A Paper Eichmann (1992)
>http://www-old.ircam.fr/~fingerhu/anti-rev/textes/VidalNaquet92a/
>part-5.html
>---------------------- begin quote -----------------------------
>
>                5. MOSCOW, NUREMBERG, JERUSALEM
>
>As for the Nuremberg trials, the principal target of the revisionists,
>
>The only question that counts, historically, is the following:
>according to which of the two competing models of jurisprudence did
>the tribunal function, the liberal (and primarily Anglo-Saxon) model
>or the Soviet model? The answer is not in doubt. 

Conclusions are normally stated at the _end_ of the argument, not at the
beginning.

The Soviets, who had
>detained Supreme Admiral Raeder and H. Fritzsche (a collaborator with
>Goebbels), who was subjected to Moscow-style interrogation, did not
>impose their law.

No, what relevance did they have to the war with Russia? OTOH, others such
as Ohlendorf claimed that their testimony was coerced.

 They could neither impose the inclusion of the crime
>at Katyn among those attributed to the Nazis 

No, but they tried to do so.  The failure of the judges to respond to this
crime in their final judgment says all that is needful about the integrity
of that court.

nor prevent a German
>lawyer (despite censorship of his arguments) from shedding a bit of
>light on their 1939 pact with Germany,

That would be Seidl, who was stopped again and again from pursuing issues.

 nor prevent three acquittals
>(including Fritzsche's).

Over strong Soviet protestations.

 The prosecution was far from always
>triumphant over the defense, and the principle of Tu quoque, which was
>officially forbidden, occasionally triumphed in practice, as when the
>German admirals were able to show that the American fleet under
>Admiral Nimitz had done exactly what they were being reproached with.

There was no *tu quoque* precisely because it was forbidden.  Kranzbuhler
was very clever on this point.  He got away with it because he was an
excellent lawyer, and Francis Biddle liked him.

>The principle of collective guilt, which was officially in effect, was
>not retained in practice, and the tribunal did not make use of the
>concept of "crimes against humanity" - such crimes were treated as war
>crimes - and abandoned the notion of a conspiracy.

Then why was Streicher hanged?

[15][65] That the
>raw material accumulated and stocked at Nuremberg was not always of
>very good quality is a certainty. That a certain amount of sifting
>must be done is obvious.

Thank you!  And let's start calling a spade and spade in that regard.

>But sifting does not mean rejecting en bloc
>and speaking of witchcraft trials in a situation involving defendants
>who, in the immense majority of cases, contested point by point the
>charges against them, frequently pleaded ignorance or innocence, but
>never denied what was not deniable.

Specifics would be nice, here.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Fri Jul 19 07:29:25 PDT 1996
Article: 51351 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Thinking About the Numbers
Date: 19 Jul 1996 05:46:24 -0400
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Lately I have put up some posts by way of showing the mindset that
prepared Soviet evidence at the Nuremberg Trials.  Of course, if people
want to accept their evidence, that is fine with me.  But one thing that I
have said without really thinking about it is that the Soviets claimed 8.5
million dead in Treblinka, Majdanek, and Auschwitz Birkenau.

Today the numbers for those three camps is about 800,000 for Treblinka,
maybe 360,000 for Majdanek, and about a million flat for AB.

These indications do not necessarily change the numbers of Jewish dead, as
Moran has suggested time and again.  But it does make clear that if the
numbers of Jewish dead did not change, then the number of non-Jews must. 
Therefore, it follows, that 6.3 million non-Jews were not in fact murdered
according to National Socialist industrialized mass murder in gas
chambers.  This is not an inconsequential fact.

The current number gassed hovers somewhere now at about 3 million.  Since
the Jewish numbers have not changed, it follows that the vast majority of
all victims of gassings were Jews.  We can accept this thinking by arguing
that the Nazis had a plan to physically exterminate every Jew, but not
other peoples.  So far, so good.

But if the Nazis had a plan to exterminate every Jew, but not other
people, why would they have murdered millions of non-Jews at all?  Just
for the fun of it?  I find that argument weak.

It is true that 3.5 million Soviet POW's died in German captivity.  Most
of these, BTW, in the first winter of the Russo German war.  But while I
can understand that the Nazis were killing Jews qua Jews, I cannot see the
justification for killing Russians qua Russians or Poles qua Poles.  Of
course, we know that many (I mean here, tens of thousands) were killed in
direct military reprisals.  But where are the massive massacres that led
to the deaths of 3 million non-Jewish Poles? Or the massive massacres that
led to the deaths of 10 million non-Jewish Russians?  It seems obvious to
me that if in fact the Germans had an extermination program for Slavs,
they would have made up a larger proportion of gassing victims, especially
since Slavs and Russian POWs were heavily represented in the Nazi KZ
empire.  I conclude therefore that there _was_ no extermination program
for Slavs, and it follows that the Polish and Soviet death tolls are
inflated.

Originally, in 1946, it was alleged that the Germans were systematically
killing off all of their racial enemies, Jews and Slavs (Gypsies, too), to
the tune of maybe 20 million.  But now we say that the only ones who were
systematically killed off were the Jews.  That's what it looks like,
anyway.

Now to anticipate:  if Poles and Soviets were not gassed, and the result
is a reduction in the amount murdered, wouldn't further downward revisions
affect the Jewish totals as well?

No.  Because the Nazi State definitely considered Jews as the enemy. 
Therefore it is entirely plausible if the gassing totals go down for the
shooting totals to go up.  Or the famine totals, disease totals, exposure
totals, etc.




From ehrlich606@aol.com Fri Jul 19 07:29:26 PDT 1996
Article: 51364 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why CODOH is not likely to sue ProtoSource
Date: 18 Jul 1996 05:03:19 -0400
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In article <4seiem$eau@Networking.Stanford.EDU>, rich@c2.org (Rich Graves)
writes:

>
>dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) wrote:
>
>[lawyer joke]
>>"So when you signed the death certificate you had not taken any steps to
>>make sure the man was dead, had you?"
>>
>>"Well, let me put it this way.  The man's brain was sitting in a jar on
my
>>desk, but for all I know he could be out there practicing law
somewhere."
>
>This is an excellent description of the revisionist technique. There are
>gas chambers, there are orders, there are mass graves, there are lists of
>the dead, but since there are no triply-authenticated autopsy reports, I
>guess nobody died.
>
>

This response is also typical.  Too busy fighting hate to enjoy a good
joke.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Fri Jul 19 07:29:27 PDT 1996
Article: 51365 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nyiszli's Memoirs of Auschwitz
Date: 19 Jul 1996 07:44:26 -0400
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In article <4shvqs$im8@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il>, schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il
(Richard Schultz) writes:

>
>Rumplestiltskin (ehrlich606@aol.com) wrote:
>
>: I don't think Matt is a troll trying to start fights.  
>
>I am curious how you can continue to maintain this, given that Myshkin
>has admitted that he is here to start fights.  I reposted one of his
>comments on the subject yesterday.
>
>

Watch it, or I will stamp my foot right through the floor.  BTW, Dr.
Schulz.  I don't think Matt was quite right when he slammed you when you
were cautioning us not to play around with HCN.  You were being laudably
responsible I think.

Now, if I may, I would like to ask you a question from your perch in
Israel.  Namely, how do Yoram Sheftel and the (late) Dov Eitan come
across?  I say this because I read Sheftel's book, and while I admire his
courage, he comes across as something of a self promoter.  OTOH, Dov Eitan
seemed like a very admirable character.




From ehrlich606@aol.com Fri Jul 19 07:29:28 PDT 1996
Article: 51381 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Leninist Code of Responding
Date: 19 Jul 1996 08:08:45 -0400
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Make the appropriate substitutions as you see fit:

The great bulk of Lenin's published work consists of attacks and
polemics.  The reader is invariably struck by the coarseness and
aggressiveness of his style, which are unparalleled in the whole history
of socialism.  His polemics are full of insults and humourless mockery (he
had in fact no sense of humour at all).  It makes no difference [who his
opponent is] if his opponent is not a lackey to the bourgeoisie and the
landowners he is a prostitute, a clown, a liar, a pettifogging rogue, and
so on.  This style of controversy was to become obligatory in Soviet
writing on topics of the day ....

If Lenin's opponent happens to say something he agrees with, the man is
*forced to admit* whatever it is; if a dispute breaks out in the enemy
camp, one of its members has *blurted out* the truth about another; if the
author of a book or an article does not mention something that Lenin
thinks he ought to have mentioned, he has *hushed it up.* His socialist
adversary of the moment *fails to understand the ABC of Marxism*; if,
however, Lenin changes his mind on the point at issue, the one who *fails
to understand the ABC of Marxism* is he who maintains what Lenin was
maintaining the day before.  Everyone is constantly suspected of the worst
intentions; anyone who differs from Lenin on the most trifling matter is a
cheat, or at best a stupid child. 

Source: L. Kolalowski, *Main Currents of Marxism*, vol. 2, p. 520


From ehrlich606@aol.com Fri Jul 19 09:06:50 PDT 1996
Article: 51395 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: 18 Jul 1996 03:55:41 -0400
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In article <4si23p$1cs@grivel.une.edu.au>, 
writes:

>
>Subject: Re: Mauving right along
>From: Daniel Keren, dkeren@world.std.com
>Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 18:26:11 GMT
>
>
>"Mauve [F., from L., malva, MALLOW]
>       n. A purple- or lilac-coloured aniline dye; 
>          the colour of this
>       a. Of this colour"
>       
>("The Concise English Dictionary" (copyright by Cassels) 1988 p.718)
>
>"Lilac [F. and Sp. from Arab. and Pers. lilak, var. of nilak, dim.
>       of nil, blur, indigo]"
>       
>(op. cit. p.678)
>
>d.A.

That's nice.  Etymologically, *Queen* is the same as *c*nt*.  But we don't
refer to Elizabeth as the *C*nt of England.*  At least I don't.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Fri Jul 19 09:06:52 PDT 1996
Article: 51407 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another word on Dachau
Date: 19 Jul 1996 02:33:50 -0400
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In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
(Mark Van Alstine) writes:

>
>In article <4sjf7e$q97@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
>(Ehrlich606) wrote:
>
>> In article <31ea4bda.344120815@news.zilker.net>, mike@aimetering.com
(Mike
>> Curtis) writes:
>> 
>> >>>
>> >>Actually, I think it was Richard Widmann who brought the matter up
with
>> >>appropriate quotes from Martin Broszat and Simon Wiesenthal.
>> >
>> >Broszat's quote appears to be out of date and Simon Wiesenthal's quote
>> >is subject to interpretation. I thought YOUR concern was gassing
>> >testimony and not total denial.
>> >
>> >
>> Obviously, your definition of *Total Denial* means anything less than
>> *Total Acceptance*
>
>Actually, Mr. Curtiss has been simply pointing out the
self-contradictions
>between what you, Ehrlich606, _profess_ to believe and what you
_actually_
>say. 
>
>Case in point is your professing acceptance of the evidence of homicidal
>gassing while holding up specious denier claims as "evidence" to the
>counter. 
>
>A bit of a dichotomy, wouldn't you say? 
>
>But then so is defending and/or ignoring the Troll's contemptuous
>anti-social behavior and ad homine attacks while lamenting the lack of
>civility and meaningfull discussion in alt.revisionism. 
>
>Methinks thou speaketh with forked tongue.... 
>
>

Since you phrase that a query rather than as an attack, allow me to
respond.

Although I read about this subject when I was very young, and my tender
reading had a large influence on my subsequent reading and intellectual
development, I never had any doubts about the standard version of events
until I was nearly 30.

By that time my personality was pretty much set.  So, too, was my interest
in Jewish, Russian, Hungarian, and Polish cultural and philosophical
literature, so too my Germanophilia.  Understand that my opinions,
sympathies, interests, and thinking evolved without any reference to
Holocaust skepticism at all.

Therefore, that I have been skeptical about this topic for over 10 years,
and have found -- via this board -- an opportunity to express myself on
the topic, doesn't change at all my perception of Germans, Jews, or other
Eastern Europeans, or my thinking, judgments, or whatever.

As a result I feel free to be skeptical as the information leads me.  I
have nothing to lose or change in my personal makeup or outlook.  I expect
no final answers here, but what I do find is intellectual stimulation for
further reading and thinking.  Who knows?  Maybe I am not the only one to
benefit.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Fri Jul 19 16:19:54 PDT 1996
Article: 51438 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Post your forensic studies here
Date: 19 Jul 1996 07:41:36 -0400
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In article <4sj90v$1om@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU>, rjg@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU
(Richard J. Green) writes:

>
>In article <4shh5p$42d@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
>Ehrlich606  wrote:
>>In article <4seelj$ff@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU>, rjg@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU
>>(Richard J. Green) writes:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>The Crackow team has demonstrated that HCN was present above
>>>background levels.  Deniers have no explanation for the presence of HCN
>>>in a facility built after the typhoid epidemic.
>>>
>>>If the barracks in which they measured no HCN were never fumigated, why
>>did
>>>they measure a higher level in the homicidal gas chambers?
>>>
>>>If the barracks were fumigated, why did they measure a higher level in
>>the
>>>homicidal gas chambers?
>>>
>>>Mr. Giwer will intervene with no answer and will predictably resort to 
>>>ad hominem attacks.
>>>
>>>It should be noted that the researchers used a calibrated method and
that
>>>they discriminated against Prussian blue whose origin is not clear.
>>>Leuchter did not do so.
>>
>>The remains that the traces of HCN in Krema II are quite small compared
to
>>the traces _in_ the delousing chambers, and _outside_ the delousing
>>chambers (whose *Prussian Blue* traces have been *discriminated*
against).
>>Moreover, the traces of HCN in Krema II are comparable to the traces in
>>the barracks, i.e., very small.
>
>Of course, the delousing chambers were exposed to more HCN for longer
>periods of time.  That just shows the the homicidal gassing chambers are
>inconsistent with delousing chambers.
>
>>In fact, from what I have seen on this subject, Leuchter, Krakow, and
>>Rudolf are all in agreement as to the small traces of HCN in Krema II. 
>>And that's why we have the current explanation, that the HCN was never
>>allowed to linger in Krema II.
>
>There is no reason on earth to allow the HCN to linger.  Leuchter and
>Rudolf did not discriminate against Prussian blue: their work signifies
>nothing.  The Crakow team used a very carefully calibrated measure.
>
>>I sincerely doubt that ZB was never used again for fumigation after the
>>typhus epidemic in 1942.
>
>Why were there no measureable traces in other buildings?
>
>Mr. Ehrlich, you claim that lethal gassings occurred.  Where do you
>claim they occurred if not in the chambers that indicated by responsible
>historians?

Rich, I will answer you here, and answer Mark also, who is much more
*argumentative* elsewhere.  I believe that over a half dozen locations
have been spotted for gassings at AB.

Unlike most revisionists, I don't find a gassing thesis impossible. 
Moreover, I have reservations based on my lack of knowledge about the nuts
and bolts of extermination procedures to pronounce all witness testimonies
invalid.  Furthermore,  the concept of _some_ gassing fits into my thesis
of extermination for those who are economically not useful, or *useless
mouths* or whatever euphemism you want to use for murder.  Moreover, such
a concept fits into what I know about the conduct of other totalitarian
regimes.

However, the real question in my mind is a thesis of immediate
extermination within the camp system versus shootings in the field.  I
have severe reservations about the first part.  Reasons:  (a)  appears to
contradict other witness testimony, (b) traces of cyanide compounds at
Kremas are, to my unscientifically trained eye, too low -- specifically,
topping out at 7.9 mg per kg.  OTOH, the traces at the delousing
facilities are hundreds if not thousands of times higher.  (c)  *dumbing
down* the traces at the delousing chambers by excluding Prussian Blue
means not only excluding any *blue paint* (never proved) but also any
visible traces of cyanide compounds.  As a non-chemist, I am not convinced
by this approach.  (d)  the mass graves at the several locations,
triangulated with the mass graves from the Hamburg firestorm, and the
Katyn Forest, where the numbers are known, does not correlate with the
area of the mass graves at the Aktion Reinhardt sites and the claimed mass
murders that occurred therein,  (e) it has been generally conceded that
numerical totals are going to be the weakest element of witness testimony,
(f) the Wannsee minutes specifically address the labor aspect of the Final
Solution, (g) numerous subsequent documents point to labor requirements as
well as the demand to bring the death rates down for labor purposes.

For these reasons I have doubted, and continue to doubt, the scale of
exterminations by gas that the standard approach maintains.  I cannot
prove this.  Then, if things proceed according to form, I will be accused
of saying *BISS*, the implication being that if I can't prove my
reservations then I am compelled to accept your thesis.  But If I cannot
dispute the standard version comprehensively, I can still register my
doubts.  And that is what I do. 

Best Regards!




From ehrlich606@aol.com Fri Jul 19 16:19:54 PDT 1996
Article: 51442 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nyiszli's Memoirs of Auschwitz
Date: 18 Jul 1996 10:37:55 -0400
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In article <31ee36de.56311829@news.zilker.net>, mike@aimetering.com (Mike
Curtis) writes:

>
>rjg@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>
>>In article <4sh9hp$n9@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
>>Ehrlich606  wrote:
>>
>>>Thank you, gentlemen, for confirming to me that the coughing fits were
a
>>>fake detail.  You have also confirmed that the *blue bodies* is another
>>>fake detail.  Nevertheless, I must insist the Zyklon was mauve.
>>
>>That's intellectually dishonest Mr. Ehrlich and you know it.
>>
>
>Do you think he really does? I wonder. . .
>
>

OK, let's put it this way.  HCN does not produce a hacking cough.  So N.
is wrong about this.  Bilek says that HCN poisoning does not turn people
blue.  So N. is wrong about this, too.  The Zyklon is whatever color you
insist.



From ehrlich606@aol.com Fri Jul 19 16:19:55 PDT 1996
Article: 51446 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The more things change ...
Date: 19 Jul 1996 15:02:28 -0400
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In article ,
Marty Kelley  writes:

>
>On Thu, 18 Jul 1996, Keith Morrison wrote:
>
>> Mike Curtis wrote:
>> > 
>> > ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:
>> > 
>> > >
>> > >As to the empirical basis of Lysenko's theory,  biologists
today
>> > >have no doubt that his experiments were totally worthless [....] 
This,
>of
>
>> > What has this to do with the Holocaust?
>> 
>> Absolutely nothing.  That's the beauty of it.  Since it has nothing
>> to do with the Holocaust, they can say it proves the Holocaust didn't
>happen,
>> which induces a great deal of head-scratching and puzzled expressions,
>> which revisionist/deniers then use to prove you don't understand.
>> 
>> It's the proof by non-sequitor.
>
>Oh, but the analogy is so clear--Lysenko's goofy biology was the
>State-sanctioned theory, and was forced on the Soviet scientific
community
>despite the fact that biologists knew it to be crap.  It's exactly like
>how every government forces all historians to accept the Holocaust,
>despite the fact that thousands of intrepid truth-seeking scholars know
>the official story to be false according to the best standards of
>science...except for the part about governments forcing the accepted
>history on scholars, and except for the part about
>about thousands of intrepid scholars rejecting the historical evidence,
>and apart from the existence of other theories that disprove the
>generally-accepted history.
>
>Other than those differences, the situations are exactly the same.
>
>

Actually, this is turning out like a Rorschach test.  I didn't mean it
that way.  Actually, the part of the excerpt that I liked had to do with
the fact that anyone who questioned Lysenko was *_ex hypothesi_ a fascist,
racist, etc.* which is precisely the attitude many conventionalists adopt
when people express doubts about the standard version of the Holocaust.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Sat Jul 20 09:15:13 PDT 1996
Article: 51566 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: 19 Jul 1996 22:59:39 -0400
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In article <4smqq4$aqb@grivel.une.edu.au>, 
writes:

>
>Alles andere als Ehrlich606, ehrlich606@aol.com wrote:
>>In article <4si23p$1cs@grivel.une.edu.au>, 
>>writes:
>>
>>>
>>>Subject: Re: Mauving right along
>>>From: Daniel Keren, dkeren@world.std.com
>>>Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 18:26:11 GMT
>>>
>>>
>>>"Mauve [F., from L., malva, MALLOW]
>>>       n. A purple- or lilac-coloured aniline dye; 
>>>          the colour of this
>>>       a. Of this colour"
>>>       
>>>("The Concise English Dictionary" (copyright by Cassels) 1988
>p.718)
>>>
>>>"Lilac [F. and Sp. from Arab. and Pers. lilak, var. of nilak, dim.
>>>       of nil, blur, indigo]"
>>>       
>>>(op. cit. p.678)
>>>
>>>d.A.
>>
>>That's nice.  Etymologically, *Queen* is the same as *c*nt*.  But
>we don't
>>refer to Elizabeth as the *C*nt of England.*  At least I don't.
>
>I can imagfine that thgere are quite a few people in Ireland
>and that there are and have been many others who would find
>the cognate appellation fitting.
>
>Of course there is a difference as well, for while the anatomical
>feature is associated with the person's role, they are grammatically,
>conceptually and biologically distinct. 
>
>By the way, I am sure there are quite a few queens around
>who do not sport the customary biological equipment, some 
>don't even wish to undergo the operation.
>
>On the other hand, "mauve" refers to a refinement of "blue",
>just as "azure", "aqua", "aquamarine", etc. ar usually understood
>to be shades of blue, or be at least "bluish".

No, this does not follow.  Your connection of *mauve* and *blue* was
several etymological steps down in the chain:  I recap -- from mauve to
lilac, from lilac to its etymology, from romance languages to Arabic, and
>from  Arabic to Persian, and then -- as a derivative diminutive of the
Persian word.  Indeed, your etymological connection is even more
far-fetched than mine.

>
>The reason I mention this at all, is that someone --- and I do
>not recall who --- seemed to be suggesting that because some
>had referred to Zyklon B as being blue and someone else referred
>to its being mauve, it followed that there were no deliberate
>gassings at all using Zyklon B. An alleged inconsistency in
>referring to the hue of a colour seems to be acceptable to some
>posters here as conclusive prrof of a conspiracy to perpetrate
>a hoax.

This is a typical position, that contributes greatly to the rigidity of
this NG.  The questioning of a minor detail is regarded as a plot to
dispense with the entire Holocaust story, sought by those anxious to prove
a conspiracy to perpetrate a hoax.  And just exactly _what__ was_ this
post, that said that because there were color incompatibilities there were
no intentional gassings?  Not one that I have seen.

Disparities in the reported color of ZB really only underline the
ignorance of those who claim to know what color it was.  Beyond that, if
we knew what color it was, and someone reported differently, then we would
have clear inference to question that witness'  testimony.  Not to say
that Nyiszli doesn't have other problems.  He does.

>
>I thought --- naively, it seems --- that clarifying the fact that
>calling something "mauve" does *not* contradict calling it "blue",
>it merely refines the description, narrowing down the range from
>all hues of blue to a smaller band of them.

No, you were alles andere als naif.

>
>I had hoped that it would possible to conduct the discussion without
>descending to trite and unseemly matters, but you seem to be more
>interested in thegeneral neighbourhood of the anal region of royalty 
>than in cerebral matters.
>
>
You have somewhat curiously mixed up the anal and genital regions.



From ehrlich606@aol.com Sat Jul 20 09:15:14 PDT 1996
Article: 51606 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN ADMISSION OF PERFIDIOUS GUILT
Date: 18 Jul 1996 05:58:26 -0400
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In article <4sg6q5$n88@access5.digex.net>, mstein@access5.digex.net
(Michael P. Stein) writes:

>
>    However, you have tried to change the subject, which is Dresden.
>Obviously hoping nobody will notice your embarrassing failure to make the
>case on physical evidence alone, as you said you could do, with no
>reliance on eyewitness testimony.  Let's stay on track here.
>
>    Got any physical evidence for that firestorm yet?  I thought not.
>
>    And I did not even mention the fact that there was a supposed policy
>to create large-scale firestorms in German cities, which they got right
>the very first time they tried it in Dresden, yet bombing raids after
>Dresden did not cause firestorms. 
>
>    Obviously no policy of firebombing.  And on the physical evidence,
>obviously just an ordinary fire spreading uncontrolled due to destruction
>of firefighting capability, since we must discard those hysterical
>eyewitness testimonies on which the firestorm myth is based.
>
>    Want a towel to wipe the cider from your eye, Dresdenhugging fool?

Actually, the first attempt at a firestorm was in Luebeck in 1942, as I
recall.  It all stemmed from the tactic of firing the old medieval town
centers (mostly carved wood) with incendiaries in order to be a beacon to
successive waves.  As I recall also, Hamburg was the first firestorm, in
August (?) 1943.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Sat Jul 20 12:50:06 PDT 1996
Article: 51672 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Schott, Keyes, & Hitler  Re: FREE SPEECH?
Date: 20 Jul 1996 15:12:55 -0400
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In article <4squ4t$3ft0@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord
McFee) writes:

>
>I agree that one does not dismiss someone simply because one might not
agree
>with his conclusions.  And it is true that Irving has done a lot of
research
>about the Nazi era, especially with primary documents.  The problem with
Mr.
>Irving is not his ability to find documents--he is very good at that. 
The
>problem with Mr. Irving is what he does with them after he finds them. 
Two
>examples would be his misrepresentation of the Express article and his
>"interesting" interpretation of Himmler's Posen speech.
>
>

Would you mind telling me about the Express article and the Posen speech?



From ehrlich606@aol.com Sat Jul 20 16:49:43 PDT 1996
Article: 51693 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nyiszli's Memoirs of Auschwitz
Date: 20 Jul 1996 15:52:53 -0400
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In article ,
jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) writes:

>
>ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:
>
>> OK, let's put it this way.  HCN does not produce a hacking cough.  So
>> N. is wrong about this.  Bilek says that HCN poisoning does not turn
>> people blue.  So N. is wrong about this, too.  The Zyklon is whatever
>> color you insist.
>
>Ehrlich, you told me in email that you were being tongue in cheek when
>you wrote this before.  Now you're posting essentially the same thing
>for a second time, without a trace of tongue-in-cheekosity.

I am going out of my way to respond to Jamie's posts because he is nice to
me, even though I have decided that if I responded to all negative posts
my archive would be full of two-three lines responses.  There is also the
fact the spending one's precious time here responding to frequently obtuse
queries does not allow for any postive postings.

And there is also the fact that there is no point in responding to posts
formed by the Leninist Code.

OK -- so Jamie, this one's for you.  Now, I _was_ being tongue in cheek. 
I think it is funny that N. said mauve, and so many have been having
conniptions about it.  The impact that that may have on N.'s credibility
and thus on the _extent_ of the commission of crimes that are in any case
two generations old is bound to be slight.  Leave it to a conventionalist
to identify that disparity with a rejection of the Holocaust in total.

>
>What gives?  If you meant it seriously, why did you mislead me?  If you
>didn't mean it seriously, I confess to being totally unable to tell when
>you're having fun with us and when you're not.

I did not mislead you.  I _was_ being tongue in cheek.  What happened next
is that I got sucked into responding to an accusation about my putative
dishonesty.  So I restated the facts as I read them from Messrs. Green and
Bilek.  And that is really all there is to it.

>
>(I could go on and point out that Zyklon's irritant might well produce a
>cough and that HCN poisoning does indeed turn people blue in some cases,
>but these things have already been posted, and they're beside the point
>for what I really want to know...)

OK, so here you go claiming that ZB's irritant _might_ have produced a
suffocating cough, and that because HCN _can_ turn people blue, it turns
out that N. _might_ have been right, even though at first glance he
appears to be wrong.  I don't have a problem with you saying that.  I am
not asking you to *prove it.*  I am not even going to point out that the
argument has been continuous that the ZB used for exterminations (and
certainly by 1944!) did not contain the irritant.  Nor am I going to call
you names or question your integrity.  Nor am I going to request the
etymology of the word *mauve* in 50 languages for corroboration, nor
accept blindly evidence produced by the Soviet Union.  In short, I am not
going to be a conventionalist.




From ehrlich606@aol.com Sat Jul 20 17:04:36 PDT 1996
Article: 51703 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: 20 Jul 1996 00:48:43 -0400
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In article <31EFE4CB.3518@gryn.org>, Alec Grynspan  writes:

>
>Look below, Matt.
>
>See the sentence where it says: "If it's the case that such an
>*INDICATOR* was added..." [EMPHASIS MINE].
>
>> 
>> >That's precisely the point, Mr. Ehrlich.  If it's the case that such
an
>> >indicator was added, fresh zyklon would be blue.  It would start to
turn
>> >mauve when it began to accumulate water.
>> 

I do not see how this follows.  The kieselguhr or ERCO or whatever
probably acquires the HCN when that gas is in a liquid state (I don't know
the method, but I am rather sure of this).  Then it is sealed in a tin. 
The pellets will therefore be wet with condensed HCN.  When the tin is
opened, they will immediately begin to dry out and gas out.  Is this not
right?

Second, how are the pellets accumulating moisture exactly?  Third, it has
already been established that there were no added agents.  So why is this
relevant at all?




From ehrlich606@aol.com Sat Jul 20 18:01:33 PDT 1996
Article: 51712 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another word on Dachau
Date: 20 Jul 1996 20:32:24 -0400
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In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
(Mark Van Alstine) writes:

>
>In article <4sna8e$jqa@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
>(Ehrlich606) wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>> Although I read about this subject when I was very young, and my tender
>> reading had a large influence on my subsequent reading and intellectual
>> development, I never had any doubts about the standard version of
events
>> until I was nearly 30.
>
>And what, specifically, caused you to doubt the standard version of
events? 

I actually read the literature and the primary documents on which it
claimed to be based.

>
>> By that time my personality was pretty much set.  So, too, was my
interest
>> in Jewish, Russian, Hungarian, and Polish cultural and philosophical
>> literature, so too my Germanophilia.  Understand that my opinions,
>> sympathies, interests, and thinking evolved without any reference to
>> Holocaust skepticism at all.
>
>In other words, intellectual rigidity set in?

No, I wouldn't characterize it as intellectual rigidity.  However, I would
say that rigidity appears to be almost a conditio sine qua non of the
conventionalist side.
>
>> Therefore, that I have been skeptical about this topic for over 10
years,
>> and have found -- via this board -- an opportunity to express myself on
>> the topic, doesn't change at all my perception of Germans, Jews, or
other
>> Eastern Europeans, or my thinking, judgments, or whatever.
>
>Uh huh. But then, who's to say you haven't had historically (not to
>mention socially) unacceptable views to begin with? Nothing you've said
in
>a.r. would _clearly_ indicate otherwise. When you don't waffle, evade, or
>contradict yourself, you spout some not very mainstream ideas with very
>little, if any, support from the historical evidence.... 

And may I ask what is unacceptable?  Unacceptable to who?  Unacceptable to
_you_? LOL!

>
>In other words, you behave like a denier in substituting rhetoric and
>dogmatism (all under the canard of "skepticism") for clear thinking and
>careful examination of the historical evidence. 

Mark, all you are doing is characterizing my posts in a negative way. 
BTW, you don't put things under a canard, you put them under a rubric.

>
>> As a result I feel free to be skeptical as the information leads me.  
>
>Even when it leads you to intellectual dishonesty and giving support to
>proven  liars, bigots, anti-Semites, and Holocaust deniers? And you think
>this will _not_ effect how people come to look at you and your
>"skepticism?" 

In the first place I am a human being confronting the reality that I find
here.  I am not going to side with the majority, period.  That's not my
personality.  Second, assuming that your characterizations are correct, I
do not give support to posts that I consider wrong-headed or offensive. 
But at the same time, I am not going to attack people who do not attack
me, nor am I going to side with people who substitute gratuitous insult
for rational recognition of disagreements.

If that means that I must continue to wear the *asbestos underwear* that
you warned me to don, so be it.  The impact of insults is weakened over
time, particularly once one has gained some understanding of the
personalities attacking you.

>
>What hubris. Simply amazing. 

No hubris.  Should I be afraid of you instead?

>
>> I have nothing to lose or change in my personal makeup or outlook.  
>
>Obviously, then, your self-respect and intellectual hononesty must be
kept
>apart from your "personal makeup or outlook?" 

In other words, you think my self-respect is keyed to what you and my
other attackers think of me?  Don't be absurd.

>
>> I expect no final answers here, but what I do find is intellectual
>stimulation 
>> for further reading and thinking.  Who knows?  Maybe I am not the only
one
>to
>> benefit.
>
>Uh huh. Needless to say, I'm not very impressed with your
rationalizations.
>
And now you seem to think that I post here for your sake.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Sun Jul 21 13:05:40 PDT 1996
Article: 51831 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Bookburnings! Who encourages it?
Date: 20 Jul 1996 14:59:52 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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>
>References: <4scu8l$jn3@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
><15JUL199622204298@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <00002fc9+00008fba@msn.com>
><31ef8e70.3356521@news.pacificnet.net>
<4sos4l$eqa@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
>In alt.revisionism you write:
>To: rich@c2.org
>
>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>>CODOH@msn.com (Bradley Smith) wrote:
>>>
>>>>The book in question is being posted on CODOH International, chapter 
>>>>by chapter. Burned in Germany, shut down in the U.S., but not yet 
>>>>destroyed. Who wants to destroy such books?
>
>Posting the chapters in question to usenet will help fight censorship,
>because then everbody can see what the authorities are trying to censor.
>
>

CODOH already has half a dozen of these chapters posted, in German. 
Translations, I understand, are in the works.  What I have perused is
interesting and informative.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Sun Jul 21 13:05:41 PDT 1996
Article: 51835 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: 21 Jul 1996 06:29:25 -0400
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In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
(Mark Van Alstine) writes:

>
>In article ,
>jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>
>> Mr. Allen, these items photographed on the roof of L.1 are skinny. At a
>> rough approximation, the left two items are twice as tall as they are
>> wide.  The right items is fainter and blurrier, and looks about four
>> times as tall as wide, but it's difficult to say for sure.
>> 
>> I helped a friend move recently, and we used a lot of boxes, but I
don't
>> recall seeing a single one that was taller than it was wide.  Much less
>> twice as tall.  Such boxes would be awkward to move, difficult to pack,
>> and even more difficult to unpack.
>> 
>> You say these items were boxes of roofing material.  One quick, simple
>> question:  why would boxes of roofing material be so tall?
>> 
>
>Here's another one for Mr. Allen: The damp proofing material used in the
>L.Kellers was bituminous felt (cf. _Technique_, p.202).
>
>According to the _Larouse Dictionary of Science and Technology_, p.112:

Larousse!
>
>bituminous felt (build) A manufactured material incorporating asbestos,
>flax, or other fibres, and bitumen, generally about 1/8 in (3mm) thick.
It
>is produced in rolls, impervous to water, and is largely used for roof
>coverings.
>
>So where are these _rolls_ of "roofing material," Mr. Allen? I don't see
>_rolls_ of tar paper on the roof of L.Keller 1, Mr. Allen. Do you? 
>

I do.

This is utterly amazing.  I have just consulted the photograph, on URL's
previously provided by Jamie.  And do you know what I see?  I see three
large rolls of bituminous felt _standing on end_ on the roof of LK I, and
moreover, I see what appears to be a _fourth_ roll lying perpendicular to
the nearest one.  Or perhaps it is a _wooden pallet_!

Of course, the photograph is none too clear, but I urge everyone to check
it out.




From ehrlich606@aol.com Sun Jul 21 13:05:42 PDT 1996
Article: 51839 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: 21 Jul 1996 07:01:12 -0400
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In article <4sr9li$8dh@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU>, rjg@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU
(Richard J. Green) writes:

>
>In article <4spofb$lso@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
>Ehrlich606  wrote:
>
>>I do not see how this follows.  The kieselguhr or ERCO or whatever
>>probably acquires the HCN when that gas is in a liquid state (I don't
know
>>the method, but I am rather sure of this).  Then it is sealed in a tin. 
>>The pellets will therefore be wet with condensed HCN.  When the tin is
>>opened, they will immediately begin to dry out and gas out.  Is this not
>>right?
>
>To answer this question satisfactorily may require some more research.
>My assumption was that the change in color of the indicator would have
>been due to hydrogen bonding of the water.  If that's the case, HCN
>would not turn the indicator pink.  It's possible and perhaps even
>likely that the indicator works by coordination chemistry of a
>transition metal.  When ligands are replaced by water the color changes
>(due to a shift in the HOMO-LUMO gap).  HCN or CN could indeed act as a
>ligand to some transition metal.  It's not clear to me what the effect
>on color would be (it depends on what happens to the HOMO-LUMO gap).
>This issue may be worth pursuing.

I can follow you here, and I assume the transition metal functions in a
manner similar to the cobalt derivative Matt cited elsewhere.
>
>>Second, how are the pellets accumulating moisture exactly?  
>
>Silica gel is hygroscopic; HCN and water are miscible.  Even with the
>best precautions, it is often difficult to keep moisture out of such
>materials.

I can still follow you.  Except is the absorption _bound_ to take place? 
Obviously, in the case that we are examining we can expect a great deal of
humidity, and thus moisture available to be absorbed.  The problem, as I
see it, is that too much humidity would condense the HCN?  Or am I wrong
about this?
>
>>Third, it has already been established that there were no added agents. 

>
>Who established that?  What is your source for this information?
>
>> So why is this relevant at all?
>
>If you can prove that no indicator was present, it's not relevant.

I think we are talking about two different things.  I have in mind the
apparent formic acid agent that was added as a warning stuff (the
*lachrymogen*).  It has been generally conceded that most ZB that ended up
in the KZ system lacked this ingredient.  You are thinking of something in
the substance to register moisture, either of HCN or H2O.  I think.  So
there may be no disagreement on this one, because I don't know.




>
>



From ehrlich606@aol.com Sun Jul 21 13:05:43 PDT 1996
Article: 51851 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Call Me a Revisionist, But ....
Date: 21 Jul 1996 07:08:56 -0400
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You may call me a Revisionist, but this really is not a good idea ---

In article <199607207203.ABA1812@infinity.c2.org>,
zundel-repost@alpha.c2.org (E. Zundel Repost) writes:
>
>
>We even have books by that title.  You see it on T-Shirts and bumper
>stickers.  In weeks and months to come, you will see ZOG used ever more
>frequently by writers because it has entered popular speech and parlance
in
>the USA and Canada.  It is very much part of the vocabulary of the
>alternative media and is now filtering into lapdog media dispatches.

This sucks.  If I have to choose between accepting the ZOG concept, or
embracing the conventionalist story of the Holocaust, then I will be
forced to do the latter.  What a choice!  

>
>In the ZGram below and in ZGrams to come, I will use ZOG as a summarizing
>word tool, much in the way "The Flower Generation" might describe the
>hippies of the 60's, and "The Jet Set" the lifestyle of the rich.

Ingrid, this is a very stupid idea.  Almost as stupid as calling me a
Nazi.

>
>I hasten to add that logic dictates that not everybody who was young in
the
>60's was a Flower Child, and not everybody rich indulges in the Jet Set
>lifestyle.  Similarly, not every Jew is part of ZOG-but many influential
>ones are, and when writers like myself use this term, not only are these
>Jews addressed but also, let's be very clear! their nest-fouling toadies,
>lackeys and yes-men who come out of the Aryan ranks.

Ingrid, you sound like you have been reading my post on the Leninist Code
of Responding.  Either that or you have overdosed on Keren and Van
Alstine.  This is blatantly targeting Jews. 
 
>
>ZOG has been doing something very clever in the consistent pairing of the
>words:  "Pornography-and-Neo-Nazi" or its derivatives. In Canada, for
>instance, you have "Pornography-and-Hate-Literature Units" in the Police
>Force, and Canada Customs equates anyone who has any Revisionist views
with
>sexual perverts of the worst kind.
>

There is no call for this and use of the ZOG concept is very, very bad. 
Take heed.  


From ehrlich606@aol.com Sun Jul 21 13:30:58 PDT 1996
Article: 36710 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: WORLD JEWRY EXPOSED is no more, (but George is?)
Date: 20 Jul 1996 16:40:20 -0400
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In article <31f05107.4329243@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, ursus_m@ix.netcom.com
(Ursus Major) writes:

>   Whether German-German or Jewish-German (which is what
>"Yiddish" actually means), the name is a very old term for, basically,
>a share-cropper: not a serf, but one who paid the overlord in kind,
>rather than money-rent: about 3-4 rungs from the bottom of the feudal
>pyramid. 

I don't think the distinction between quitrent or labor had to do with
elevation in the feudal order of things.  In lands where agriculture was
the main source of the Lord's wealth, labor at harvest and planting time
was necessary.  In lands where wealth came from raw materials or
handcrafts, money would be sufficient to enrich the Lord.  I think it
really depended on where you lived.

The German-Jewish banking house of Lehman Brothers used
>that spelling, as did the non-Jewish former Sec. of the Navy. The
>famous sopranos of the 19th (Lilli, who is a distant relative) and
>Lotte (who is not, but taught at Santa Barbara for many years) used
>the other spelling.

I do believe that Lotte Lehmann (a 20th C. soprano, I think she broke in
as Octavian in 1910) was Jewish, in fact, I don't think Lehmann was her
given name.  In any case, she was forced to flee.

>   Names are very a very unreliable standard. Look at Alfred Rosen-
>berg. With a name like that, one would automatically assume he was
>Jewish. It turns out he wasn't--or at least his "employers" were con-
>vinced he wasn't. Although it doesn't seem he did much of anything--
>his position as "metaphysician in residence" (or something equally
>silly) sufficed to get him hanged at Nuremberg. But it didn't take
>much to warrant that distinction. A whole bevy of Germans were
>executed for the Katyn Massacre (which the Brits and Americans
>knew very well was a bit of Soviet pranking).

Names are not a reliable guide, you are right about that.  On the military
front, two of the more daring German generals of the 20th Century were
Lewinski (aka Manstein), and Francois!  As far as Germans and Jews go, the
demonstrable intersection of these cultures for 150 years before Hitler
makes all such questions moot.

>
>As for not being in the Corps. That's basically a young man's game.
>Good for character building, but the wrong MOS can prove negative.

I am wondering about the MOS of the other ex-Marines here.  I was an 0311.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Sun Jul 21 14:08:53 PDT 1996
Article: 51859 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Post your forensic studies here
Date: 21 Jul 1996 08:55:33 -0400
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In article <31f0ccc5.321695@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) writes:

>>How would Mr. Moran recommend proving that?  They were detecting
>>cyanides in solution, Mr. Moran!  
>>
>>The reactions:
>>
>>2H2O => OH-  +  H3O+
>>
>>and
>>
>>HCN.H2O => CN-  + H3O+
>>
>>will control the relation between HCN and CN- in solution no matter
>>which you start with n'est-ce pas?
>
>	No relevance given. Mr.Green's practice of introducing some
>chemical equations to give his stuff a sense of authority. 
>>

Wait until Mr. Green demonstrates that potassium, nickel, and iron can
make a very dangerous weapon -- especially for OJ.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Sun Jul 21 17:07:31 PDT 1996
Article: 51881 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Characteristics of Soviet Culture & Science
Date: 20 Jul 1996 22:49:15 -0400
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In article <4ss395$3rpa@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord
McFee) writes:

>
>>Thank you!  And let's start calling a spade and spade in that regard.
>
>Yes, we should *all* do that.  There were, for example, some documents on
>the Holocaust that were so badly translated that their real import was
not
>understood by the court.  They were far more sinister than the court
>believed.
>
>

Specifics, please.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Sun Jul 21 18:35:53 PDT 1996
Article: 51932 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Leninist Code of Responding
Date: 20 Jul 1996 13:57:42 -0400
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In article <4sosnu$eu5@Networking.Stanford.EDU>, rich@c2.org (Rich Graves)
writes:

>
>ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) writes:
>>landowners he is a prostitute, a clown, a liar, a pettifogging rogue,
and
>
>Pettifogging rogue?
>
>-rich
> Jedi Knight of CODOH
> http://www.c2.org/~rich/
>
>
>

guessing: from *petit faux*?


From ehrlich606@aol.com Sun Jul 21 21:09:17 PDT 1996
Article: 51959 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nyiszli's Memoirs of Auschwitz
Date: 21 Jul 1996 07:10:32 -0400
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In article <4sn94p$38p@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt
 Giwer) writes:

>
>On Thu, 18 Jul 1996 12:52:16 -0700, mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <4sli83$nqp@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
>>(Ehrlich606) wrote:
>
>>> In article <31ee36de.56311829@news.zilker.net>, mike@aimetering.com
(Mike
>>> Curtis) writes:
>>> 
>>> >
>>> >rjg@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>>> >
>>> >>In article <4sh9hp$n9@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
>>> >>Ehrlich606  wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>>Thank you, gentlemen, for confirming to me that the coughing fits
were
>>> a
>>> >>>fake detail.  You have also confirmed that the *blue bodies* is
another
>>> >>>fake detail.  Nevertheless, I must insist the Zyklon was mauve.
>>> >>
>>> >>That's intellectually dishonest Mr. Ehrlich and you know it.
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >Do you think he really does? I wonder. . .
>>> >
>>> >
>>> 
>>> OK, let's put it this way.  HCN does not produce a hacking cough....  
>
>>Nyiszli didn't say it produced a "hacking cough." He said:
>
>>"Even two hours later it produced a suffocating cough."
>>                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^                  
>
>	What is a "suffocating" cough?  Please be specific in your answer.
 The
>closest I can come to that kind of description is from pneumonia which
>is not in the symptoms listed by you.  It is the kind that keeps trying
>to bring up mucous from the lungs but can not.  
>
>>And early symptons of HCN poisoning _can_ cause respitory difficulties.
>>(cf. http://www.opcw.nl/chemhaz/hcn.htm)
>
>>"...Lesser exposures cause a constriction and numbness in the throat,
>>stiffness of the jaw, salivation, nausea, vomiting, dizziness, and
>>apprehension...." (cf.  http://hammock.ifas.ufl.edu/txt/fairs/15547 )
>
>>In your opinion, Ehrlich606, would a "suffocating cough" fall within the
>>definition of "respitory difficulties?" If not, why? 
>
>>> ...So N. is wrong about this.... 
>
>>In your opinion.
>
>	From your own description.  You have not listed coughing at all.  
>
>>> ...Bilek says that HCN poisoning does not turn people blue....  
>
>>The DuPont MSDS on HCN say it can: 
>
>>"In most cases, cyanide poisoning causes a deceptively healthy pink to
red
>>skin color. However, if physical injury or lack of oxygen is involved,
the
>>skin color may be bluish...."
>
>>Do you suppose 1,000-2,000 victims locked in a gas chamber that was
"very
>>hot" and "so suffocating as to be unbearable" (cf. _Technique_, p.489),
>>and who trampled and fought against each other in their terror to get
away
>>from the HCN gas, might cause this? 
>
>	What would a pharmacists poetic description mean?  If he is
correct in
>some manner then the room is filled with CO2 and they are dying already
>and, according to AG, blocking the influx of the lighter HCN.  Of course
>he did not directly state that, rather it is the clear meaning of his
>gas weights having an impact on the discussion.  
>
>>> ...So N. is wrong about this, too....  
>
>>In your opinion.
>
>>> The Zyklon is whatever color you insist.
>
>>No, Zyklon B is whatever it color it was. 
>
>>BTW, Ehrlich606, do you suppose it is possible that Nyiszli saw _spent_
>>pellets of Zyklon B as assumed that their color was same as when it was
>>when it was administered? 
>
>	You mean wood pulp is mauve?  What strange trees they have.  I
know,
>they imported them from the Amazon just for ZB.  
>
It is also worth pointing out, I believe, that a gas that causes the cells
to cease metabolizing oxygen is going to cause some reflexive gasping for
air.  But that would be fairly far along in the dying process I should
think, just before unconsciousness.  And in any case it is not a hacking
or suffocating cough.

Similarly, the usual coloration for cyanide poisoning is pink or red. 
*If* and *may* there be a lack of oxygen, then blue.  That's two
conditions.  And more importantly there is no proof that such conditions
obtained.  Therefore we can reasonably expect the victims of HCN poisoning
to be pink or red.  BTW, everyone has seen the photos of Himmler and
Goering, who also died of cyanide poisoning.  They look normal to me, and
no one has ever described them as blue, although I seem to recall someone
saying that Goering looked *concrete.*  I await the elucidation that
states that concrete is sometimes blue, under certain conditions, and
therefore these certain conditions must have obtained.

The foregoing therefore must remain unchanged.  Nyiszli is wrong about the
suffocating cough.  Nyiszli is wrong about the blue coloration.  Nyszli
claims the carrier material was mauve.  OTOH, the conventionalists have
staked their hate-fighting reputations on the blueness of Zyklon, so mauve
must be blue.  Matt has fairly well exploded the cobalt theory on this
elsewhere, i.e., blue to pink, stop for cup of coffee at mauve.

Nyiszli is wrong when he says the material falls in a clump on the floor. 
He is wrong about the dimensions of the undressing cellar.  He is wrong
about the dimensions of the gas chamber.  He is wrong about the number of
elevators (actually, dumbwaiters).  He is wrong about the pushcarts (any
Russian reader should note the cognates here carefully) that go into the
ovens.  He is wrong about the number of ovens.  He doesn't say a word
about the induction columns.

He states the bodies were in severe distress and messy.  He is directly
contradicted by Hoess.

But we know that.


 


From ehrlich606@aol.com Mon Jul 22 02:16:01 PDT 1996
Article: 52019 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hello fellow truthseekers!
Date: 22 Jul 1996 00:41:19 -0400
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In article <21JUL199614152855@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>,
dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) writes:

Marty Kelley said:
>> 
>>You seem to be implying that historians in general (both academics and
>>amateurs with an interest in historical study) are not interested in
"what
>>really happened."  Please clarify your comment: specifically, how do you
>>explain the fact that vitually ALL academic historians who study WWII
and
>>German history (including historians IN Germany) universally accept the
>>historical record of the Holocaust?  
>
>    This is a point, Marty, which has been raised here repeatedly and I
>    don't recall seeing much of any response to this.  I would be
>    interested in hearing what David Thomas has to say to this point as
>    well.

The depends on how you define terms, which is part of the problem.  If by
Holocaust you mean the German program for expelling Jews from Europe and
particularly from Poland *to the East*, no one denies that.  If by
Holocaust you mean that the 800 year old Yiddish community was destroyed,
no one denies that.  If by Holocaust you mean that many Jews were shot by
the Germans and/or their native surrogates and/or by East European
nationalists in the war, no on denies that.  [The sole revisionist
question is how many were so murdered.]  If by Holocaust you mean that
many were incarcerated in the Nazi KZ system, suffered greatly, and died
horribly, particularly towards the end of the war, no on denies that. 
[The sole revisionist questions is how many, and how deliberate were these
latter deaths.]  If by Holocaust, you mean that the Jewish suffering and
loss of life was greatest at Auschwitz Birkenau, followed by the Aktion
Reinhardt camps, no one denies that. [The revisionist questions are, how
many died deliberately, how many died by lethal gas, if any.]  If by
Holocaust you mean that there was a deliberate program articulated by the
Nazi government to exterminate all Jews, then that is where revisionism
begins.  But please note, that is also where the
functionalist/intentionalist debate begins.

Oh, and lest I forget, there are arguments over precisely how many died,
and where.  But even regular Holocaust historians do that.  Compare
Reitlinger, Hilberg, and Dawidowicz.

Clearly then the argument is an argument over the techniques of murder and
a general line of questioning that asserts that the standard
interpretation contains fantastic or exaggerated elements.  That's all. 
And please note also that the revisionist approach does not touch several
elements of the Holocaust that comprise most books on the subject.  In
other words, there is little or no arguing over Wannsee, or many of the
shootings, the ruthless deportations, the ghettoization, or many of the
other aspects that comprise fully 90% or more of the Holocaust story.

How many historians of German history have analyzed the operation of the
gas chambers from a technical point of view, with a view of supporting the
standard interpretation?  I can't think of any.  There is Pressac, but he
is not a trained historian, nor is he an academic.

How much space do authorities like Hilberg, Dawidowicz, or Reitlinger give
to the actual gas extermination process?  Dawidowicz -- none.  Hilberg --
very little, keyed to selective quotes from Gerstein.  Reitlinger --
perhaps 10 pages in a 500 page book.  And yet those sections contain
virtually the whole thing as far as *revisionism* is concerned.

Beyond that, it is a question of interpretation.  How much odium should
attach to Germany, versus Russia, for crimes in the 20th Century, how did
these things happen, to what extent are the people of Germany (or Russia)
responsible for the crimes committed in their name, what were the two
world wars actually about, and so on.  Obviously the revisionist
interpretation differs markedly from the standard interpetation as
articulated _here_, but in fact interpretations are just that --
interpretations, and therefore they are less statements of fact than
structures within which the facts are believed to be put in best relief. 
Such matters of interpretation are ultimately matters of individual
judgment.

Most historians of German history, or World War 2, do not pursue these
topics in great detail in their own books.  Gordon Craig's history of
Germany, 1870-1945 condenses the Holocaust to about 3-4 pages in his book,
much of it taken up by quoting Himmler's *ausrotten* speech, and Goering's
*Total Solution* letter to Heydrich.  He also makes naive reference to
Germans who loaded people onto trains in Amsterdam closing their minds to
the fact that they would *arrive in front of the ovens at Treblinka.*
(sic!, p. 750). Aside from the obvious error just cited, Craig himself
clearly has done no personal analysis of this data.  Look at his
footnotes.

This is what I find most peculiar about revisionism overall. The points at
which revisionists and conventionalists agree far outweigh the
disagreements.  That is why, with regard to the gassings, or, really, the
scope of the gassings, I am inclined to say, what difference does it make?
 Except it clearly makes a lot of difference on this board!

Again, how many books on Nuremberg have been published since those trials
took place?  Telford Taylor (1992) lists a bibliography of about 70 books
in English.  Much of this comprises biographies of the defendants.  There
are only a few books about the trials themselves, and the manner whereby
the veracity of Soviet generated evidence is treated, for example, is
oblique in the extreme.

This is the problem: virtually all historians accept the Holocaust story,
but they say virtually nothing about it.





      






From ehrlich606@aol.com Mon Jul 22 02:33:28 PDT 1996
Article: 1792 of alt.fan.ernst-zundel
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel
Subject: Re: 960720: The Bird and his Rocks
Date: 21 Jul 1996 19:06:11 -0400
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In article <4sru6n$7k@Networking.Stanford.EDU>, rich@c2.org (Rich Graves)
writes:

>
>zundel-repost@alpha.c2.org (E. Zundel Repost) writes:
>>The Zundelgrams are posted to alt.fan.ernst-zundel and alt.revisionism
>>daily, unedited. The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent the
>>views of the poster, who is not the author. See X-Headers for relevant
>>URLs. A good place to start is http://www.nizkor.eye.net/features/ or,
if
>>you're in Europe, ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>>
>>The night of July 20th, 1944, Count Claus von Stauffenberg was summarily
>>executed for his part in an attempt to assassinate Adolf Hitler and end
>>the war. http://pacific.st.usm.edu/~kebryant/ww12.html
>
>Hmm. Pity Ingrid won't commemorate the life of this war hero who almost
>saved Germany from disaster.

I agree about the fact that the guys from 20 Juli deserve commemoration. 
I disagree that if they had succeeded there would have been any difference
in the end result.  Face it:  the Germans were already pretty much out of
the Soviet Union, and the Holocaust had already peaked.

Hitler's death would not have brought about a separate peace with the
Western or Eastern Allies.  The Germans still would have had to face, if
not Unconditional Surrender, at least complete occupation.   They still
would have lost East Prussia, Silesia, and Pomerania, areas where Germans
had lived for almost a thousand years.  They would have lost the
Sudetenland, where they had lived even longer.  The trail of refugees
would have been just as large.

Their country would have been carved up by the victors and their patents,
industries, and wealth would still have been plundered, if not under the
guise of reparations, then by greedy GI's and Red Army men.  There still
would have been war crimes trials, with all that that entailed.  And so
on.

The only thing that an early death for Hitler would have accomplished is
that Hitler would have become a martyr, and the Germans would have had
another stab in the back myth to cling to.  It is better for everyone that
it didn't happen that way, even though in the reality it meant suffering
for _all_ of Europe for another 10 months.
      


From ehrlich606@aol.com Mon Jul 22 02:40:32 PDT 1996
Article: 52052 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Call Me a Revisionist, But ...
Date: 21 Jul 1996 20:30:54 -0400
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In article <4stp17$5il@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, sf924@aol.com (SF924)
writes:

>
>Ehrlich:
>
>What planet are you on?  Get it through your head, your ideological soul
>mates are nothing more than blatant, rabid anti-semites.  Trying to
>divorce "revisionism", as preached by Zundel, et al,  from anti-semitism
>is like trying to divorce the Klan from white sheets.  Zundel and his
girl
>Friday Ingrid hate Jews.  They hate Jews to the very marrow of their
>bones.  

No doubt just as you hate the people you don't like to the marrow of your
bones, or so you say.

>
>Face it pal, these people don't give a damn about historical integrity. 
>Their very lives revolve around hating Jews and other people they
perceive
>to be vermin.  They live in a world of paranoid conspiracies.  Stop
>deluding yourself into thinking that there is some respectable way to
>associate yourself with these people and their views and not be tarred as
>a Nazi,  anti-semite or a lunatic.

The propensity of the conventionalists to characterize me in whatever way
they wish is well known: they have decided I am a revisionist/denier, that
was not my choice.  The religious right and NOW are not perceived as
identical even though they both believe in censoring pornography. 
Similarly, Hugh Hefner and NOW are not perceived as identical even though
they both believe in a woman's right to an abortion.

Similarly, I am aligned by default with the revisionists for two reasons:
a) because the conventionalists refuse to accept honest differences of
opinion, and b) engage in ruthless and sometimes systematic campaigns of
ad hominems (witness the mantra-assault on Giwer of two months ago, for
example.)  Since the conventionalists will not allow for either skepticism
or civilized differences of opinion without engaging in personal attacks,
I would not want to be associated with them.  OTOH, people from the
revisionist side are willling to be skeptical, and moreover do not insist
that my interpretation of reality match theirs.  As if revisionism is a
monolith.

>
>You have characterized yourself as some sort of moderate on this subject.

>If you really believe that there is some need for serious dispassionate
>historical revision of any of events of 1933-1945, you will never find
nor
>achieve it through any association with these people.

I have seen no indication that you are correct.  I have said several times
that I support (a) six million dead, (b) a German program of (ultimate)
extermination keyed to the Wannsee Protocols, (c) some usage of lethal
gas.  I think I have been consistent on that throughout.  But no
revisionist has ever called me names for such a stance.  Plenty of
conventionalists have.

  People like Smith,
>Giwer, Moran, Raven, Weber, Zundel et al are Nazi sympathizers and
>propogandists, plain and simple.  Their agenda is simply not yours.      

>

Far be it from me to determine the agenda of people, many of whom I do not
even know.  And far be it from you, who has claimed elsewhere that you
enjoy calling them Nazi scum.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Mon Jul 22 09:00:20 PDT 1996
Article: 52144 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nyiszli's Memoirs of Auschwitz
Date: 22 Jul 1996 06:58:58 -0400
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In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
(Mark Van Alstine) writes:

>
>In article <4st378$sdf@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
>(Ehrlich606) wrote:
>
>> He is wrong about the dimensions of the undressing cellar.  
>
>Yep. Flat wrong. Off by 4x.
>
>> He is wrong about the dimensions of the gas chamber. 
>
>Yep. Flat wrong. Off by 4x.
>
>> He is wrong about the number of elevators... 
>
>Yep. Flat wrong. Off by 4x.
>
>And let us not _also_ forget that Nyiszli _also_ overestimated the number
>of victims kille by 4x. 
>
>An interesting pattern emerges it seems. Dr. Nyizsli, an intelligent man,
>who seems so attentive to detail elsewhere, makes these obvious and gross
>errors? _All_ of which are _exactly_ off by 4x?  Now what possibly could
>explain this? 
>
>An error in translation? Perhaps. Faulty memory? Perhaps. Simply bad with
>numbers? Perhaps. 
>
>But since Ehrlich606 is _so_ fond of bashing the Soviets in defense of
the
>Nazis, how about I play along? Could it be, perhaps, that these errors
>were _intentional_? That Nyiszli, knowing that the Soviet death toll
>estimates did not match up with his experiance at Auschwitz, sought some
>way to hint such without taking any heat? 
>
>How about picking a few _obvious_ and _verifiable_ things (such as Krema
>dimensions, number of elevators, etc.) and _exaggerate_ them by _exactly_
>the amount the Soviet death toll for Auschwitz was exaggerated by! What a
>marvelously subtle idea! 
>
Welcome to Byzantium!

The idea that Nyiszli would exaggerate things by four as a *secret code of
dissent* does not add up.  The dimensions of the rooms are given as 200
yards long.  1/4 would be 150 feet.  In fact, the undressing cellar is 175
feet long, the chamber 100 feet long.  The number of victims, divided by
four, is 3000/4 = 750. So much for 1,000 or 2,000 at a time.

In fact, the Soviets never mentioned the dimensions of the Kremas in their
Special Commission, submitted at the IMT as USSR-8.  They _did_ however
give the dimensions of the four burning pits.  And guess what?  Nyiszli's
dimensions are dead on with the dimensions of the Soviet Commission.  In
addition, Nyiszli's cremation time for three corpses is 20 minutes, also
in accordance with USSR-8.  So much for that theory.

There are other correspondences with USSR-8 that should be explored.
 


From ehrlich606@aol.com Mon Jul 22 09:00:21 PDT 1996
Article: 52174 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: 22 Jul 1996 07:05:14 -0400
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In article <4sv0rf$t5n@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
(Matt  Giwer) writes:

>
>On 21 Jul 1996 06:29:25 -0400, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:
>
>>In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
>>(Mark Van Alstine) writes:
>
>>>
>>>In article ,
>>>jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>>>
>>>> Mr. Allen, these items photographed on the roof of L.1 are skinny. At
a
>>>> rough approximation, the left two items are twice as tall as they are
>>>> wide.  The right items is fainter and blurrier, and looks about four
>>>> times as tall as wide, but it's difficult to say for sure.
>>>> 
>>>> I helped a friend move recently, and we used a lot of boxes, but I
>>don't
>>>> recall seeing a single one that was taller than it was wide.  Much
less
>>>> twice as tall.  Such boxes would be awkward to move, difficult to
pack,
>>>> and even more difficult to unpack.
>>>> 
>>>> You say these items were boxes of roofing material.  One quick,
simple
>>>> question:  why would boxes of roofing material be so tall?
>>>> 
>>>
>>>Here's another one for Mr. Allen: The damp proofing material used in
the
>>>L.Kellers was bituminous felt (cf. _Technique_, p.202).
>>>
>>>According to the _Larouse Dictionary of Science and Technology_, p.112:
>
>>Larousse!
>>>
>>>bituminous felt (build) A manufactured material incorporating asbestos,
>>>flax, or other fibres, and bitumen, generally about 1/8 in (3mm) thick.
>>It
>>>is produced in rolls, impervous to water, and is largely used for roof
>>>coverings.
>>>
>>>So where are these _rolls_ of "roofing material," Mr. Allen? I don't
see
>>>_rolls_ of tar paper on the roof of L.Keller 1, Mr. Allen. Do you? 
>>>
>
>>I do.
>
>>This is utterly amazing.  I have just consulted the photograph, on URL's
>>previously provided by Jamie.  And do you know what I see?  I see three
>>large rolls of bituminous felt _standing on end_ on the roof of LK I,
and
>>moreover, I see what appears to be a _fourth_ roll lying perpendicular
to
>>the nearest one.  Or perhaps it is a _wooden pallet_!
>
>>Of course, the photograph is none too clear, but I urge everyone to
check
>>it out.
>
>	Given the quality of the photograph that is as good an explanation
as any
>other.  
>
>	What at first appears to be a shadow of the nearest object,
clearly occupies
>an area
>on both the roof and the wall of the building such that it can not be a
>shadow.
>Something laying on its side is quite reasonable.  
>
>	Also if you look at the "non-detail" picture you will see it is
>from  so far
>away that
>perspective can not explain the differing thickness.  Rather it would
appear
>fortutious for the purpose of the picture that the application of it
started
>closest
>to the building.  
>
>

Yes, and if they were rolls of bituminous felt that would explain the
different thicknesses very easily.  Moreover, they would be placed on end
to avoid lying in the snow and also to facilitate movement.  I, too, have
seen roofing jobs in progress.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Mon Jul 22 09:00:21 PDT 1996
Article: 52175 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: 22 Jul 1996 07:02:58 -0400
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In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
(Mark Van Alstine) writes:

>
>In article <4st0q5$rv5@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
>(Ehrlich606) hoots and hollers:
>
>> In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
>> (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
>> 
>> >
>
>[snip]
>
>> >Here's another one for Mr. Allen: The damp proofing material used in
the
>> >L.Kellers was bituminous felt (cf. _Technique_, p.202).
>> >
>> >According to the _Larouse Dictionary of Science and Technology_,
p.112:
>> 
>> Larousse!
>> >
>> >bituminous felt (build) A manufactured material incorporating
asbestos,
>> >flax, or other fibres, and bitumen, generally about 1/8 in (3mm)
thick.
>> It
>> >is produced in rolls, impervous to water, and is largely used for roof
>> >coverings.
>> >
>> >So where are these _rolls_ of "roofing material," Mr. Allen? I don't
see
>> >_rolls_ of tar paper on the roof of L.Keller 1, Mr. Allen. Do you? 
>> >
>> 
>> I do.
>> 
>> This is utterly amazing.  I have just consulted the photograph, on
URL's
>> previously provided by Jamie.  And do you know what I see?  I see three
>> large rolls of bituminous felt _standing on end_ on the roof of LK I,
and
>> moreover, I see what appears to be a _fourth_ roll lying perpendicular
to
>> the nearest one.  Or perhaps it is a _wooden pallet_!
>> 
>> Of course, the photograph is none too clear, but I urge everyone to
check
>> it out.
>
> 
>
>Obviously, Ehrlich606, the extreme proximity of your lips to the Troll's
>posterior has rendered you rather giddy. Perhaps you could regain a
>modicum of your former intellegence (even for a only moment ot two) if
you
>stepped back and took a few deep breaths before recommencing lip-lock on
>his butt? 
>
>Perhaps then you will realize you have (and have had) little, if
anything,
>constructive to offer to this discussion and therefore aren't really
taken
>all that seriously? 
>
>Mark

Uh huh.  Does that mean I am right?


From ehrlich606@aol.com Mon Jul 22 10:53:45 PDT 1996
Article: 80220 of soc.culture.german
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: 21 Jul 1996 19:23:57 -0400
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In article , olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole
Kreiberg) writes:

>
>In article <4skpl8$3be@hades.rz.uni-sb.de>, Stefan Schneider wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>I am only asserting these views in *these newsgroups* in order to
protest 
>>>against the foul attempts of the German government to suppress the 
>>>freedom of speech, not only in their own country but in the rest of 
>>>Europe. Like in 1940-45 Germany is again going to decide - this time 
>>>through their European Union - what Danish people should be allowed to 
>>>express in public about nazism. THIS CAN BY NO MEANS BE TOLERATED!
Nazism 
>>>is solely a German phenomena, allthough many Germans may be too
cowardly 
>>>to admit this.
>>
>>C'mon, get lost. Never saw such a lot of idiotic contradictional
bullshit 
>>gathered in so few sentences.
>>What you post about the impossibility of using HCN for mass murder in
gas 
>>chambers is no view but a lie. 
>
> This is your opinion. I am certainly not lying. Just because my views do
>not correspond with yours, you are accusing me of lying. 
>
>>Lying in public isn't quite appreciated by 
>>most people, no matter what thew debate is about. In the tragic case of 
>>the holocaust, uttering those lies is in addition an act of defamation
of 
>>the victims and their memorial. 
>
> I do not owe these victims anything. I have the right to express what I 
>want in public about how they may or may not have died. Another thing is 
>that I do not really understand why it is not received as good news for
the 
>Jews and the humanity that fewer Jews may have died in the concentration 
>camps than generally believed. The fewer that died the better, don't you 
>agree? How can anyone regard this as defamation? Please tell me that.
>
>>So, what's foul about having laws 
>>threatening people who do so with punishment? 

Free Speech is Free Speech.  If discussing the crimes of your grandfathers
leads to the conclusion that some of these crimes either did not happen or
have been exaggerated, it only becomes *defamation* because the law says
so.  You are in essence saying that it is right to punish people because
they hurt someone's feelings.  That is like the excuse of the SS man who
shot several Jews in Poland and was excused by the Nazi regime because the
sight of Jews made him angry.

>
> It is absolutely wrong and indefensible to imprison somebody because of
an 
>opinion. Of course, if it can be proved by the court that you have
slandered 
>somebody or used libel, you can be ordered to pay a compensation. Sending
>people in prison for 3 1/2 year as in the Ewald Althans case and a
similar 
>"punishment" in the Guenther Deckert case expose to the world that
Germany is
>not a true democracy. 
> 
>>What has this to do with 
>>free speech? You really think this is comparable: a dictatoric regime 
>>disdainful for all civil rights and the life of people imposes war on a 
>>very continent killing millions and a democratically elected gouvernment

>>trying to enact a law within well defined and transparent political 
>>structures? Nut.

A true democracy believes in itself.  A true democracy is not so afraid of
its past that open discussion of it, or even the symbols of it, are
against the law.  Until the German people learn this, they will not have a
true democracy.

Will the German people ever overcome their fears and learn?



From ehrlich606@aol.com Mon Jul 22 13:03:52 PDT 1996
Article: 52188 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: 22 Jul 1996 10:45:06 -0400
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In article ,
jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) writes:

>
>ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:
>
>> I see three
>> large rolls of bituminous felt _standing on end_ on the roof of LK I
>
>OK, I'll bite.
>
>Why would the Nazis have stood the rolls of felt on end, just before
>this photo was snapped?
>
>"So that I can cling to my idea about there not being a gas chamber"
>is not an acceptable answer.
>
>After you answer that one, we've got a lot more to go through, Ehrlich:
>why there are invoices for "wire mesh insertion devices" in that same
>room, for example.  Why photographs show smudges on the roof of the same
>room.  Why dozens of Nazis and dozens of inmates testified to seeing
>Zyklon poured into those holes.  Why they're listed as morgues in all
>the camp documents but equipped with all the equipment needed for a
>gassing facility.  Why the camp had an furnace system with sufficient
>theoretical throughput to incinerate the entire camp's maximum inmate
>capacity, each and every month.  Why the Nazis chose to dynamite these
>and only these rooms as they fled the camp.
>
>You can explain away each and every one of these things, I'm sure,
>Ehrlich, in one balancing act after another.  All you'll manage to
>convince me of is the fact that you have some reason to want to explain
>it all away, to ignore the big picture as you give one unlikely
>rationalization after another.  That reason, I'm sure, is one detail
>which I'm sure you'd prefer not to explain.
>
>But, by all means, go ahead and finish this one off for us:
>
>Why would the Nazis have stood the rolls of felt on end, just before
>this photo was snapped?

Jamie -- I looked at the picture and I saw what I saw.  Actually, Mark Van
Alstine should get the credit for telling me what to look _for_.  Do you
really believe the Holocaust depends on how one sees this picture?  I
guess so.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Mon Jul 22 13:03:53 PDT 1996
Article: 52223 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another word on Dachau
Date: 21 Jul 1996 19:38:28 -0400
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In article , karlpov@access5.digex.net (Charles
R.L. Power) writes:

>
>ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) writes:
>
>>Not only do you believe everything I just posted, you also believe that
>>there is nothing surprising about the fact that Dr. Spanner was
unmolested
>>for the rest of his life, not even being subjected to
>>institutionalization.  OK. 
>
>Why would he be institutionalized? He was carrying out experiments with
>the approval of his government. A little hard to argue that he was crazy
>in those circumstances.

So you think the German government authorized him to make soap out of
bodies and leather out of skin?  And you think the German government said,
OK, why don't you use the soap to do your laundry and wash your body.  And
you don't think that is insane.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Mon Jul 22 14:41:45 PDT 1996
Article: 52249 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Is the Holocaust Unique?
Date: 22 Jul 1996 01:42:56 -0400
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In article <4summ1$e5q@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>, rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU
(Richard J. Green) writes:

>
>Hello all,

Hello back.
>
>A plug for a new book:
>
>_Is the Holocaust Unique?: Perspectives on Comparative Genocide_
>edited by Alan S. Rosenbaum, Westview Press, Boulder, CO, (1996).

My offering, *Three Holocausts* should still be accessible from Deja news,
and argues for the uniqueness of the Jewish Holocaust in the perspective
of European History.
>
>The book has chapter on various historical events such as the Armenian
>Genocide, the slave trade, the genocide of Native Americans etc.  The
>writers of the chapters have diverse viewpoints.

I would say that there is an apples-and-oranges aspect to this, because
the historical contexts are so widely different.  On this Mike Curtis
would probably agree, but where he as tended to disagree with me is on the
fact that contextually Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia had similar
mind-sets.

>
>My mother wrote the chapter entitled, "Stalinist Terror and the Question
>of Genocide: the Great Famine."

And, even though I believe that Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia can be
profitably compared, I don't believe this particular comparison really
stands up either.  Even though I am very familiar to Ukrainian
nationalism, their cruel treatment by Great Russians, and so forth.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Mon Jul 22 19:07:28 PDT 1996
Article: 52311 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: auschwitz:myths and facts
Date: 22 Jul 1996 02:37:22 -0400
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In article <21JUL199621250929@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu>,
dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) writes:

>
>    We also know (or at least it is extremely reasonable to deduce) that
>    Hoess was referring to Belzac when "Wolzek" was written down.  It is
a
>    very reasonable transliteration error if Hoess was dictating to
someone
>    whose native language was not German and was not familiar with the
town
>    names.  Belzac was a camp which fit the description of what Hoess was
>    referring to when he was quoted as saying Wolzek.
>
>

This transliteration error bit doesn't make sense to me.  Substituting *B*
for *V (W)* is conceivable, but the *L* in *Belzec* (pronounced
*Bey-zhets*) is soft, unlike the hard *L* in *Wolzek* (pronounced
*Voll-tsek*).  OTOH, there was possibly a German name for the location,
since most towns or cities in this area would have three or four names
(German, Polish, Lithuanian or Ukrainian or Byelorussian, etc., compare
Lemberg, Lvow, Lviv; etc.).



From ehrlich606@aol.com Mon Jul 22 23:08:23 PDT 1996
Article: 52348 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: auschwitz:myths and facts
Date: 22 Jul 1996 17:21:49 -0400
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In article <4t0fka$kjj@access5.digex.net>, mstein@access5.digex.net
(Michael P. Stein) writes:

>
>    So we have three possibilities:
>
>        1) Hoess was told what to say by his captors, who made up a
>           mythical camp "Wolzek."
>
>	2) Hoess was tortured and just made something up to satisfy his
>           captors.
>
>        3) Hoess made a mistake about the name, but the camp exists.
>
>    Number 1 makes little sense.  If there was some vast plot to frame
the
>Nazis, as so many "revisionists" claim, why weren't more Nazis tortured
>into naming this same "Wolzek?"
>
>    Number 2 is a possibility.  But so is number 3.  Let's see if we can 
>locate "Wolzek" by following the clues Hoess left in his testimony.
>
>    Hoess said it was "near Lublin."  At first blush that sounds like
>Majdanek, which was not an extermination camp like Treblinka and Belzec. 
>If this were all we had to go on, I would say it sounds like Hoess is
>making something up.  However, the citation below gives some very
>important additional clues. 

This was an excellent piece of analysis, Mike.  But I disagree with your
conclusion.  My guess is that whether *Wolzek* came from his captors, or
whether it came from Hoess, Majdanek was probably the camp meant.  Bear in
mind that in 1945 and for some years afterwards Majdanek _was_ considered
an extermination camp, where 1.5 million people perished.  Again, this was
Soviet exaggeration, as in the case of the Auschwitz 4 million.  Sobibor,
on the other hand, has always had (relatively) low death totals for an
extermination camp, a few hundred thousand at most, AFAIK.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Tue Jul 23 13:15:11 PDT 1996
Article: 52537 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: INTERNEES-spot the difference
Date: 23 Jul 1996 14:25:59 -0400
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In article ,
Marty Kelley  writes:

>
>On Sun, 21 Jul 1996, Jeffrey wrote:
>
>> IN THE SECOND WORLD WAR
>
>> b) The Government in America rounded up 
>> 
>> b1) all enemy aliens. 
>> b2) all those who were a potential threat to the state
>> 
>> under laws specially passed and sent them to concentration camps in
>> remote places, such as the Mid West.  
>
>Uh, no, and no.  The U.S. Government illegally rounded up persons of
>Japanese ancestry, including legal residents, naturalized U.S. citizens,
>and native-born U.S. citizens. These roundups were conducted only on the
>west coast of the mainland (unless I'm very much mistaken, Hawaiian
>Japanese-Americans were not interned).  No German-Americans or Italian
>-Americans were similarly interned.

Check German nationals in WW1, however, as well as German-Americans. 
Also, I believe the situation was different in Britain.

>
>> d) The Government in the German Reich rounded up 
>> 
>> d1) all enemy aliens. 
>> d2) all those who were a potential threat to the state.
>> 
>> under laws specially passed and sent them to concentration camps in
>> remote places, such as Russia.  
>> The jews were gassed.
>
>I suppose you'd include "all Jews" under d2, ignoring the fact that Jews
>were arbitrarily declared to be "potential threats" solely because they
>were Jewish, regardless of their political beliefs or their actions.

The part about *ignoring the fact that Jews were arbitrarily declared to
be "potential threats" solely because they were Jewish, regardless of
their political beliefs* applies equally to the Japanese in the USA, of
course.

>> 
>> Question:
>> 
>> What's the difference between a+b+c and d?
>
>Ooh, I think I have an answer!  The British and Americans didn't
>systematically kill the people they interned!  (The Soviets committed
>atrocities; to what extent they were perpetrated against foreign
>nationals, I do not know--in any case, it has no bearing on the reality
of
>the Nazi genocide program)  

True.
>
>In addition, the Nazis most
>certainly didn't form combat units of volunteers from their concentration
>camps, whereas the U.S. _did_ accept Nisei volunteers who fought with
>distinction in Europe. And while conditions in the U.S. internment camps
>were not pleasant, the food was sufficient, the internees were not forced
>to work to death, and the internees were given adequate medical care.

Untrue.  Several combat units were formed from Soviet POWs, including most
of the units that faced the Allies on D-Day.  Then there was Vlasov's
Army.  Then there were Soviet POWs who were given the alternative of
continued POW custody (which was wretched) and going through Travniki to
become SS surrogates in Eastern Europe (apparently the fate of John
Demjanjuk.)  Then there were several Waffen SS units in the last year or
so of the war that were formed out of subject nationals, including Moslems
>from  Yugoslavia/Albania.  

I was about to say right off that there were no Jewish units that fought
collectively for the Third Reich, and, of course, that seems definite. 
However, 

In 1942, Goebbels found out that many of Berlin's judges were half
Jews transferred from other cities in the belief that they would stand out
less in Berlin ....In a letter to the new minister of justice Otto
Thierack he proposed simply declaring all Jews *unconditionally
disposable* -- the word he used, *ausrottbar*, also has ugly connotations
-- and commended to him *the concept of annihilation through work.* 
Thierack however was unexpectedly unsympathetic.  Some, he pointed out,
were half Jews whose sons had already died in the war ....

The concept of Germans with Jewish ethnicity who nevertheless fought and
died for a nation in which their families were imprisoned is roughly
comparable to the situation of our Japanese American troops.
>
>Oh, and another thing--when the U.S. Congress at long last apologized and
>issued cash reparations to the innocent victims of its internment policy,
>no one claimed that the Japanese-American internees had invented the
whole
>story for their economic benefit.
>
First of all, the Germans didn't take 43 years to apologize and start
paying reparations.  Secondly, the German nation admitted to *unspeakable
crimes* -- they did not necessarily admit to the crimes over which so much
of the discussion hereabouts revolves.




From ehrlich606@aol.com Tue Jul 23 18:20:48 PDT 1996
Article: 52575 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: 23 Jul 1996 17:27:23 -0400
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In article ,
jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) writes:

>
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) once again revealed his total
>ignorance about the very subjects he claims to know about:
>
>> What I am still missing about this construction is that given the
>> width and working from the buildings I have seen with this
>> construction, I would expect serious support columns down the middle
>> at least, not just the concrete weight but the snow load.
>> 
>> At one point I thought they were going to discuss them but they
>> quickly became hollow with holes for the gas to come out and finally
>> the devolved to wiremesh.
>
>Ehrlich, is this "skepticism"?  Mr. Giwer is not even paying attention
>to the discussions about the concrete support columns vs. the wiremesh
>columns.  The two, as I'm sure you know, are distinct -- except in
>revisionist writings when the author is trying to confuse his audience.

I don't think I would attribute motive to Matt on this.  After all, look
at the thread title.
>
>This crap about the concrete columns becoming hollow and then becoming
>wiremesh is, well, crap.  He's being deliberately obtuse.

So you say.  On the other hand, I don't accuse anyone of being obtuse for
failing to see rolls of tar paper on end when they are staring you in the
face.

>
>I would think a "skeptical" person would ask questions, rather than
>make blanket statements about something he knows nothing about.  But
>maybe that's just me.
>
>

Maybe it's just you.  


From ehrlich606@aol.com Tue Jul 23 18:20:49 PDT 1996
Article: 52605 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: INTERNEES-spot the difference
Date: 23 Jul 1996 17:20:05 -0400
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In article <4t35fn$mt5@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
(Ehrlich606) writes:

>
>In 1942, Goebbels found out that many of Berlin's judges were half
>Jews transferred from other cities in the belief that they would stand
out
>less in Berlin ....In a letter to the new minister of justice Otto
>Thierack he proposed simply declaring all Jews *unconditionally
>disposable* -- the word he used, *ausrottbar*, also has ugly connotations
>-- and commended to him *the concept of annihilation through work.* 
>Thierack however was unexpectedly unsympathetic.  Some, he pointed out,
>were half Jews whose sons had already died in the war ....

The attribution did not follow the first time through!  I correct it now: 
David Irving, *Goebbels*, p. 403.

A book that is difficult to obtain in the USA ...



From ehrlich606@aol.com Tue Jul 23 18:20:50 PDT 1996
Article: 52608 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: another holohugger heard from
Date: 23 Jul 1996 17:22:42 -0400
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In article <4t1o4f$711@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
(Matt  Giwer) writes:

>
>        Is there are particular reason why YOU have sent me four hundred
>copies of this message?  
>
>        It not, what is your explanation for doing so?  
>        
>        If you would like copies of them all I will be happy to send them
to
>you with a meg or so of attachments to each that is.  
>

Apparently these posts are being generated by a bot that writes and posts
these junk.  If you receive them, someone will say: *You accept spam from
a thing*





From ehrlich606@aol.com Tue Jul 23 20:23:41 PDT 1996
Article: 52575 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: 23 Jul 1996 17:27:23 -0400
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In article ,
jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) writes:

>
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) once again revealed his total
>ignorance about the very subjects he claims to know about:
>
>> What I am still missing about this construction is that given the
>> width and working from the buildings I have seen with this
>> construction, I would expect serious support columns down the middle
>> at least, not just the concrete weight but the snow load.
>> 
>> At one point I thought they were going to discuss them but they
>> quickly became hollow with holes for the gas to come out and finally
>> the devolved to wiremesh.
>
>Ehrlich, is this "skepticism"?  Mr. Giwer is not even paying attention
>to the discussions about the concrete support columns vs. the wiremesh
>columns.  The two, as I'm sure you know, are distinct -- except in
>revisionist writings when the author is trying to confuse his audience.

I don't think I would attribute motive to Matt on this.  After all, look
at the thread title.
>
>This crap about the concrete columns becoming hollow and then becoming
>wiremesh is, well, crap.  He's being deliberately obtuse.

So you say.  On the other hand, I don't accuse anyone of being obtuse for
failing to see rolls of tar paper on end when they are staring you in the
face.

>
>I would think a "skeptical" person would ask questions, rather than
>make blanket statements about something he knows nothing about.  But
>maybe that's just me.
>
>

Maybe it's just you.  


From ehrlich606@aol.com Tue Jul 23 20:23:42 PDT 1996
Article: 52605 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: INTERNEES-spot the difference
Date: 23 Jul 1996 17:20:05 -0400
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In article <4t35fn$mt5@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
(Ehrlich606) writes:

>
>In 1942, Goebbels found out that many of Berlin's judges were half
>Jews transferred from other cities in the belief that they would stand
out
>less in Berlin ....In a letter to the new minister of justice Otto
>Thierack he proposed simply declaring all Jews *unconditionally
>disposable* -- the word he used, *ausrottbar*, also has ugly connotations
>-- and commended to him *the concept of annihilation through work.* 
>Thierack however was unexpectedly unsympathetic.  Some, he pointed out,
>were half Jews whose sons had already died in the war ....

The attribution did not follow the first time through!  I correct it now: 
David Irving, *Goebbels*, p. 403.

A book that is difficult to obtain in the USA ...



From ehrlich606@aol.com Tue Jul 23 20:23:43 PDT 1996
Article: 52608 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: another holohugger heard from
Date: 23 Jul 1996 17:22:42 -0400
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In article <4t1o4f$711@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
(Matt  Giwer) writes:

>
>        Is there are particular reason why YOU have sent me four hundred
>copies of this message?  
>
>        It not, what is your explanation for doing so?  
>        
>        If you would like copies of them all I will be happy to send them
to
>you with a meg or so of attachments to each that is.  
>

Apparently these posts are being generated by a bot that writes and posts
these junk.  If you receive them, someone will say: *You accept spam from
a thing*





From ehrlich606@aol.com Tue Jul 23 20:23:44 PDT 1996
Article: 52647 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Keeping Neighborhoods Jewish (ADV)
Date: 23 Jul 1996 20:24:39 -0400
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:52647 alt.fan.ernst-zundel:1859 soc.culture.jewish:64110

In article <4t2u89$r83@lendl.cc.emory.edu>, libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu
(william c anderson) writes:

>
>jesusdung (atheist@wam.umd.edu) wrote:
>: my good man take a look at Communist history. It was a Jewish creation.

>: Kamenev, Svirdlov, Trotsky, Zinoviev, Lenin, Uritzky, and the rest
where 
>: all die-hard jews. 
>
>Okay, that's enough, Izzy.  You can officially be classified as a 
>crackpot now.  Your lapel pin will be in the mail shortly. 
>
>Hint:  Lenin wasn't Jewish.

According to Leszek Kolakowski, *Main Currents of Marxism*, vol. 3, p.
149, Lenin's mother was of Jewish extraction: he mentions a woman
journalist who uncovered the information in old parish records.

But this is as good a time as any to point out the error of ethnic
cheerleading or its obverse.  Goethe was a great German poet, but his
writings do not redound to the credit of *Germans* per se, nor any
particular individual who identifies his sympathy with Germany or Germans.
 Ditto Beethoven.  Ditto Einstein.  Ditto Columbus.  Please note also that
the last three named are generally regarded as so great that several
nationalities seek to claim them.

The fact that people engage in such self-massage as outlined above does
not make the argument more sensible.  And the same pertains to the
opposite.  Hitler's Austrian background, Lenin's Jewish background, or
Stalin's Georgian background should hardly be held against individuals of
Austrian, Jewish, or Georgian ethnicity, far less against these entire
peoples, or their cultures.

All such generalizations are really illogical.  They are made usually
because they make people feel good by accentuating the positive of their
group.  Nothing wrong with that, if kept in limits.  But they are also
sometimes made to make people feel good by accentuating the negative about
someone else's group.  Something wrong with that.   

 


From ehrlich606@aol.com Tue Jul 23 21:56:01 PDT 1996
Article: 52669 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: TOO SHOCKING FOR PUBLIC DISCLOSURE
Date: 23 Jul 1996 16:45:38 -0400
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In article ,
jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) writes, in the course of a response
>from  DvdThomas:

>
>> That does not fit into any valid description of my
>> opinions, thank you just the same.  This is one of the major reasons I
>> don't care to discuss the subjects with you.  I spend more time wiping
>> thrown balls of tar off myself than I do addressing the topics.  That
gets
>> old in a hurry.
>
>You've said all that before.  It makes for a nice-sounding argument:
>those darn guys on alt.revisionism just assume so much, they don't
>bother trying to get to know people, and they lump everyone together
>under the "Nazi" category.
>
>Trouble is, I haven't done any such thing.  Your argument sounds nice,
>it's just wrong is all.  I've been reading your words on Usenet and in
>email and recently on Germanica-l for somewhat over a year now, DThomas.
>I pay attention when you write me email.  I always read it at least
>twice.  In short, I got my idea of what you think from _you_.
>
>What is my basis for saying that you have a double standard when it
>comes to German atrocities vs. American atrocities?  Well, when I wrote
>the above, I had the exchanges below in mind.
>
>Note that you dismiss the Mazur soap story as a "fantastic story"
>because the _only_ evidence is three eyewitness testimonies and
>corroborating physical evidence. 

#1:  Mazur.  #2:  Two British POWs whose testimony was hearsay, consisting
of the repetition of rumors they heard.  #3:  No piece of alleged soap
ever tested has revealed human origin.  #4: Dr. Spanner supposedly did it,
but was never punished or institutionalized after the war.

I don't think this is a flat out double standard.  It is quite believable
that people will shoot or beat people they have been trained to hate.  The
soap story is just not very believable.  This falls into the category,
*bad comparisons*
 


From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jul 24 00:13:49 PDT 1996
Article: 52710 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Moran's Scientific Breakthrough Saves World! (Re: for th
Date: 24 Jul 1996 00:22:06 -0400
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Subject:	Moran's Scientific Breakthrough Saves World! (Re: for th
From:	dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Date:	Wed, 24 Jul 1996 00:12:57 GMT

tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
# dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

## Re food, there were 800 tons of food in the stores of the
## Panzer training school, about a mile away.

# "800 tons"? What was it stored for? The students? Enough to 
# keep 6 or 7 thousand people alive for a hundred years?

Let's do a little calculation here:

(800*1000)/(6000*100*360) = 0.0037

That is, 800 tons of food, distributed over 6-7 thousand people
over a 100 years, gives, as far as I can see, 0.0037 kilograms,
or 3.7 grams, per person per day.

I see that you're now claiming that a person can live on 3.7
grams of food per day.

Heck, this is even better than your previous, very famous,
example of "Moranic mathematics".

Go to sleep, zeide. There. There. That's more like it.

-Danny Keren.

COMMENT FROM EHRLICH606:

Dan, I like your posts, but your attempt at a remorseless putdown of Tom
would have been better if you got your magnitudes right.  A ton is either
2,000 lbs. or 2,240, long or short.  So everyone gets 7.4 grams a day,
which is _twice_ as much as you calculated.

BTW, I do a lot of by year calculations, I usually use 365.25 to reflect
leap years,
of course, at the century mark you have to drop one.  But that gets into
the realm of very minor.





From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jul 24 07:09:35 PDT 1996
Article: 52741 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Silence You Almost Can Hear
Date: 23 Jul 1996 18:48:01 -0400
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In article <01bb7873.b5d452I0$6fded3c6@default>, "Duncan Coons"
<104670.3420@compuserve.com> writes:

>
>
>
>> yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote in article
><4t1kip$idj@news.enter.net>...
>
>> 	There has been not a single remark, a single statement, a single 
>> posting, that noted that Giwer was violating every principal that they
>claim to hold 
>> so dear.  Ehrlich606 (with whom I frequently disagree with but consider
>a 
>> gentleman) has said nothing.  David Thomas (with whom I emphatically
>disagree 
>> but consider a gentleman) has said nothing.  The rest of the CODOH
>crowd, who 
>> claim to be such keepers of the flame of free expression that they
>maintain a 
>> "thought crimes archive" not only have kept their silence but,
>naturally, they 
>> have not added this admitted attempt to stifle free speech to their
>"archive."  L'il 
>> Tommy Moran chortled over Giwer's proposal for a frivolous legal action
>and 
>> asked for a piece of the action until it became a laughing stock. 
>Although he 
>> has found time to lie about the activities of others, he has said not a
>word about 
>> Giwer.  Lyin' Al Baron, who incessant whining about how "the Jews" are
>after 
>> him has become a staple of a.r, is silent.  The H*b*r synergy or Les
>Griswold or 
>> Marc Lemire?  Don't be silly.
>> 
>> 	None have stood up.  None have said a word.  None have defended 
>> "free speech."  None have demonstrated that their attachment to "free
>speech" 
>> is anything more than special pleading so that some rather eccentric
>claims, often 
>> replete with blatent misrepresentation and venomous bigotry, sometimes
>so 
>> obviously fraudulent as to be laughable, can be published without
>opposition.
>> 
>> 	As the Canadian poet wrote, it is a silence you almost can hear.
>
>
>All this is rather silly. No one spoke up because no one took Giwer's
>threat of a law-suit seriously. Such a suit would not have the remotest
>possibility of success, as you yourself (I believe) have pointed out.

First of all, I have not read Yale's eloquent remarks before now (I can
imagine his plea to the judge the next time I get a ticket for
jaywalking), and that is why I have been silent.

>
>Your analysis of the motives of at least some revisionists/deniers might
>even be correct, and absent our ability to read minds we'll never know;
>but the incontrovertible truth remains that they are often subject to
real
>censorship, whereas their opponents are not. 

Now hold on a minute.  I did not raise my voice about Matt's threatened
lawsuit because I thought it was hot air -- only somewhat less gaseous
than Gord's threat of legal action that dominated the board a month or so
ago.  If I had had any hint that Matt meant any of this seriously I would
have urged him to drop the matter.

Anyone concerned with free
>speech is therefore obliged to defend the rights of those whose
views/lies
>are subject to suppression, not those whose free-speech rights are secure
>from interference. And in fact by defending the former we secure the
>latter and, hopefully, make the principle universal. 
>
>

OK, if I have missed a beat somewhere in here I sincerely apologize.  As I
recall, Matt started talking up suit a week or so ago, and I understood
the basis was to get others to stop threatening him.  Then some guy called
his Dad, and Matt blew his top.  I can't say I blame him.

Look -- obviously there are many core-people here who disagree about a lot
of things. But I can't think of anyone here -- offhand -- that I would
wish ill.  Let's be realistic. We are adults who enjoy arguing about this
stuff.  We really should not be trying to hurt each other.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jul 24 07:09:36 PDT 1996
Article: 52794 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 3,000,000 Prewar Polish Jews?
Date: 24 Jul 1996 00:40:20 -0400
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In article <4t436h$h7@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt 
Giwer) writes:

>
>On Tue, 23 Jul 1996 20:45:28 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:
>
>>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>
>># So far a lot of snarling and foaming at the mouth in
>># response to this post, but nothing of substance to undo it.
>
>>Speech by Frank [Governor of occupied Poland], December 16 1941
>>[Documents on the Holocaust - Edited by Y. Arad, Y. Gutman, A.
Margaliot,
>>NY, Ktav Pub. House in Association with Yad-Vashem, 1981, p. 247, Nazi 
>>Conspiracy and Aggression - Washington, U.S Govt. Print. 
>>Off., 1946 Vol. II p. 634]
>
>	You might wish to check the validity of your source some day.  
>
>>---------------------------------------------------------------
>>One way or another -- I will tell you quite openly -- we must finish 
>>off the Jews. The Fuehrer put it into words once: should united Jewry
>>again succeed in setting off a world war, then the blood sacrifice
>>shall not be made only by the peoples driven into war, but then the
>>Jew of Europe will have met his end....
>
>	For example, given the date, Germany had already declared war on
the US.  It
>is unclear what future world war he is talking about.  

This is a reference to a speech Hitler gave in 1939, I believe.  The
problem is that how can you use a public utterance as proof of a secret
extermination program?  But it must be said that Frank was referring to
Hitler's speech, and according to Irving's latest book on Goebbels,
Goebbels referenced the speech several times in his Diary to justify to
himself measures that he was pushing through.

>
>>But what should be done with the Jews? Can you believe that they will
>>be accommodated in settlements in the Ostland? In Berlin we were told:
>>why are you making all this trouble? We don't want them either, not in
>>Ostland nor in the Reichskommissariat; liquidate them yourselves!
>>Gentlemen, I must ask you to steel yourselves against all
>>considerations of compassion. We must destroy the Jews wherever we
>>find them, and wherever it is at all possible, in order to maintain
>>the whole structure of the Reich...
>
>	And here the "liquidate them yourselves" is completely contrary to
the usual
>claims of the SS running the entire operation.  

Here Frank has in mind the bureaucrats who are dumping trainloads of Jews
in the Eastern territories and they are not wanted there.  Irving provides
detailed evidence of their either being put to work or being shot.

>
>>The Jews represent for us also extraordinary malignant gluttons. We
>>have now approximately 2,500,000 of them in the General Government
>>[part of Nazi occupied Poland], perhaps with the Jewish mixtures and
>>everything that goes with it, 3,500,000 Jews. We cannot shoot or
>>poison those 3,500,000 Jews, but we shall nevertheless be able to take
>>measures which will lead somehow to their annihilation, and this in
>>connection with the gigantic measures to be determined in discussions
>>with the Reich.
>
>>
>
>	And of course these discussions, if they occurred, are completely
contrary
>to
>the usual form of the story.  
>
>	When you review the validity of this source you might look into
the audience
>and such so you can get a better idea what this is supposed to be.  
>
>=====
>
>	Rather than add anything you have introduced something that
doesn't do any
>good for the most common form of the story.  It is quite strange that you
>folks don't have much interest in consistancy, or rather, that
consistancy is
>not a hallmark of the story.  
>
This talk -- which was transcribed into Frank's Diary and which was turned
over to the IMT -- is keyed to minutes of a meeting held, I believe, early
in 1942.  Of course, by this time, there had been promiscuous shootings
going on for years.  After the invasion of Russia, six months before, this
violence had gotten worse, usually by the native nationalists who
considered the Jews Soviet collaborators.  But, Western Jews, especially
German Jews, had been shot at the end of their rail journeys as early as
October, 1941, again, usually with participation of locals.

This is the context in which the Wannsee Conference was held.  My take on
the situation is that extermination was not set in stone at this point. 
However, by the summer of 1942, we know that 3,500 Jews incapable of work
>from  Germany, Austria, and Slovakia were shot in Minsk.  So we know by
then that -- at the very least -- Jews not capable of work were being
murdered as regular policy.





>
>



From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jul 24 07:09:37 PDT 1996
Article: 52808 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Jews in the East
Date: 23 Jul 1996 15:42:33 -0400
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What did the *east* hold for Berlin's Jews?  In the Baltic states
they were loved least of all.  Nor were the other eastern territories
healthier destinations.  Berlin's fifth trainload, of 1,030 Jews, set out
for Minsk on November 14.  Of Minsk's 238,000 citizens in 1939, one
hundred thousand had been Jews, many of them skilled workers.  By December
1941 only eighteen thousand of the original Jews had not fled or been
shot.  These and the newcomers from Berlin survived if they were fit for
work; the rest died or were put to death a few months later.

Source: David Irving, *Goebbels*, p. 377, the above sentences are
buttressed with three footnotes to extensive primary documentation.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jul 24 07:09:38 PDT 1996
Article: 52825 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Schott, Keyes, & Hitler  Re: FREE SPEECH?
Date: 23 Jul 1996 17:57:03 -0400
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In article <4t1dgq$1hqe@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord
McFee) writes:

>
>>Would you mind telling me about the Express article and the Posen
speech?
>
>Come now, Mr. Ehrlich, these are matters that have been discussed here
>before.  They can be found in DejaNews.
>
>But, as a public service, allow me to recap the two events:
>
>(1) L'Express: in his monthly newsletter , or whatever it is, Mr. Irving
>quoted from an article in l'Express on the gas chamber at Auschwitz and
>claimed that it was faked.  He accomplished this bt deliberately
>mistranslating the article.  This was covered in an e-mail exchange
between
>me and "revisionist" Henri Ayre, in which M. Ayre agreed with me that the
>translation was wrong.  I have posted the exchange several times.  Search
>under "Tout y est faux".
>
>(2) Posen: Irving, in Hitler'sd War and elsewhere, makes what could only
be
>described as an "interesting" assertion as to the sense of the word
>"ausrotten".
>
>
>--
>Gord McFee
>
>

Gord, I don't normally ask questions with the answers in hand.  Thanks for
the answers.  With respect to *ausrotten*, I am sure you are aware that
Koppell Pinson, a noted Jewish historian and Simon Dubnow epigone, and
therefore fluent in both German _and_ Yiddish, translated *aurotten* as
*clearing out.*



From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jul 24 11:17:02 PDT 1996
Article: 52860 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McFlea
Date: 23 Jul 1996 16:23:59 -0400
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In article <23JUL199608125295@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>,
dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) writes:

>
>In article <4t25lq$gs4@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
(Matt
>Giwer) writes...
>>McFlea, McFly, it does not matter.
>>This fool clams to be in his 50s and has the intellecutal age of a
teenager.
>>Beyond that, he is a greate defend of what he is incapable of
understandiug.
>
>>After all, he is a mongoloid idiot behind a keyboard.  
>
>    Hmmm.  A well reasoned, well cited argument.  Maybe there is
something
>    to this Giwer guy afterall?
>
>    Not.

The interesting thing about the name *McFlea* is that it means *son of
flea.*  It is also interesting to note the Dr. Blaha's name is an old
Slavic word for -- *flea.* Could it be?!

  


From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jul 24 21:55:49 PDT 1996
Article: 52948 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Brack Offers to Kill 'Only' 80% Of Jews, Spare Others for Forced Labor Summ
Date: 24 Jul 1996 21:27:31 -0400
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In article <4t4f0o$o9v@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
(Matt  Giwer) writes:

>
>On Tue, 23 Jul 1996 18:18:55 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:
>
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>
>># What I said, equally deficient in English fool, is that 
>># there is not one documented case of it ever having happened.
>
>>Of WHAT ever having happened?
>
>># NOT ONE VICTIM!  
>
>>Not one victim of WHAT?
>
>>Your anger is understood - you sought to undermine the evidence
>>for the sterilization program, by (correctly) claiming that
>>castration by X-rays is not efficient; but you only supported
>>the evidence, because a later document shows that the Nazis
>>who ran the program reached the same conclusion!
>
>>But have no fear. ZOG will remember your help and reward you
>>generously. Hello, Ken! Please set up a condo for Giwer. With
>>a T1 attached.
>
>	What anger.
>
>	Not ONE person ever found deliberately sterilized by X-Rays by the
Nazis.  
>
>	Do you have a problem with that?  Or do you have some names?  
>
>	It is just one more example of zero physical evidence.  
>
There is a lot of information about X-ray sterilization in Nyiszli's book
as well as in USSR-8.




From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jul 24 21:55:50 PDT 1996
Article: 52955 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran's Scientific Breakthrough Saves World! (Re: for th
Date: 24 Jul 1996 14:34:10 -0400
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In article <31f614a6.1448866@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) writes:

>
>ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:
>
>>Subject:	Moran's Scientific Breakthrough Saves World! (Re: for th
>>From:	dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
>>Date:	Wed, 24 Jul 1996 00:12:57 GMT
>>
>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>># dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>
>>## Re food, there were 800 tons of food in the stores of the
>>## Panzer training school, about a mile away.
>>
>># "800 tons"? What was it stored for? The students? Enough to 
>># keep 6 or 7 thousand people alive for a hundred years?
>>
>>Let's do a little calculation here:
>>
>>(800*1000)/(6000*100*360) = 0.0037
>>
>>That is, 800 tons of food, distributed over 6-7 thousand people
>>over a 100 years, gives, as far as I can see, 0.0037 kilograms,
>>or 3.7 grams, per person per day.
>>
>>I see that you're now claiming that a person can live on 3.7
>>grams of food per day.
>>
>>Heck, this is even better than your previous, very famous,
>>example of "Moranic mathematics".
>>
>>Go to sleep, zeide. There. There. That's more like it.
>>
>>-Danny Keren.
>>
>>COMMENT FROM EHRLICH606:
>>
>>Dan, I like your posts, but your attempt at a remorseless putdown of Tom
>>would have been better if you got your magnitudes right.  A ton is
either
>>2,000 lbs. or 2,240, long or short.  So everyone gets 7.4 grams a day,
>>which is _twice_ as much as you calculated.
>>
>>BTW, I do a lot of by year calculations, I usually use 365.25 to reflect
>>leap years,
>>of course, at the century mark you have to drop one.  But that gets into
>>the realm of very minor.
>
>
>	I didn't see this post by Keren, but here he corrects me on my
>numbers statement, which I just threw out there for satirical comment.

I figured as much.

>What Keren shows here is, he has gone through the simple procedure of
>figuring out in a arithmetic way to show the numbers to be way off,
>and then refers to other mathematical cipherings I have made, which he
>simply wrote and still writes off as "Moronic mathematics", never once
>making an attempt at showing the previous numbers were in err in a
>mathematical way. This of course is mostly about how I figured out
>that only 15 per cent or less of the HCN in Zyklon B would have been
>used in the time frames offered for the extermination process.

What I don't understand about that is that I have a graph of Zyklon
out-gassing from the German firm that took over the production from
Degesch, and it shows a straight 37% per half hour outgassing of the
remaining volume.  I mean, maybe it's a forgery, I don't know, but why
would Delta Freyberg GmbH put out seditious graphs?

Maybe the censors in Germany haven't caught up with it yet.  When they do,
they will have another torchlit hate-fighting parade.  It reminds me of
how under Nicholas I in Russia they used to censor geometry books. 

>	'Hah, hah', thinks Keren, 'I have caught Moran', but by so doing
>he raises the question of why he didn't try it with the other figures.
>
>	Interesting. Revealing. 
>
>

Yes, and what's more, his conversion of tons to metric completely threw
me. But that was my fault for not understanding what he was doing.  


From ehrlich606@aol.com Thu Jul 25 06:39:05 PDT 1996
Article: 53037 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another word on Dachau
Date: 24 Jul 1996 10:59:02 -0400
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In article <4t48va$3om@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt
 Giwer) writes:

>
>On Tue, 23 Jul 1996 18:47:48 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:
>
>>Actually, the story with Dr. Spanner is quite odd.
>
>>The "Institute for Contemporary History" sent me, at
>>my request, material which indicates that the German
>>authorities studied the case after the war, and reached
>>the conclusion that the soap-like material is something
>>which is created when corpses are subject to a "mazeration"
>>process, and that the Nurnberg prosecution erred in
>>thinking that there was intentional manufacture of soap.
>
>>This is why Spanner was let off the hook.
>
>>This process is probably what the corpses in the well-known
>>"soap factory" photos were subjected too (one can see a few
>>large vats filled with disfigured corpses, which look as
>>though they had been submerged in acid; this was discovered
>>after the liberation, in Danzig, where Spanner was in charge).
>
>>Odd story, indeed; it definitely could use some further
>>investigation.
>
>	It is fascinating that appear to be dismissing the story with the
>involvement
>of physical reality (even though you have no idea what mazeration is) and
yet
>you would still cling to the "confession."  After all, all confessions
are
>completely true and can not be doubted.  
>
>
>" SIGMUND MAZUR: I boiled the soap out of the bodies of women and men.
The
>process of
>boiling alone took several days- from 3 to 7. During two manufacturing
>processes, in which I
>directly participated, more than 25 kilograms of soap were produced. The
>amount of human fat
>necessary for these two processes was 70 to 80 kilograms collected from
some
>40 bodies ... I
>used this human soap for my personal needs, for toilet and for
laundering. "
>IMT VII - p. 598. 
>
>
I think the process is called *Mazuration.*  I would further point out,
that, given its sequence in the IMT proceedings, this was not testimony at
all, but rather atrocity compendiums that were read into the record. Cf.
the stair licking story, and the steam chamber story.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Thu Jul 25 06:39:06 PDT 1996
Article: 53038 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer's way with women
Date: 24 Jul 1996 22:00:59 -0400
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In article ,
schwartz@infinet.com writes:

>The simple fact is: Mr. Giwer HAS no explanation and so responds with his
>insults and name-calling.
> 
>His fixation with the women here would, in my opinion, draw only one
>obvious conclusion: tiny penis.
> 
>Sara
>
>

Oh, cut it out.  I understand Matt has 16 megabytes of RAM on his hard
drive.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Thu Jul 25 06:39:06 PDT 1996
Article: 53042 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Jews in the Baltics
Date: 24 Jul 1996 22:20:27 -0400
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The trainload of Berlin's Jews sent to Kaunas in Lithuania on
November 17 probably fared no better.  .... As in the other Baltic states,
the Soviet secret police had deported 40,000 Lithuanians to Siberia in
1940. .... When the tide turned in June, 1941, and the Russians were
driven out, the Lithuanians took revenge on the 60,000 remaining Jews,
liquidating 3,800 in Kaunas alone.  Hundreds of the rest, Goebbels
learned, were being shot. p. 377

Like Lithuania, Latvia had begun killing its Jews soon after
Barbarossa began, in revenge for the 33,038 Latvians kidnapped or murdered
by the Soviet secret police since June 1940.  In July 1941, there had been
70,000 Jews in Latvia -- the rest, some thirty thousand, had fled with
their Russian benefactors.  German sonderkommandos, manned by the Latvian
auxiliary police, usually relatives of the Russians' victims, had murdered
about 30,000 Jews by October 1941.  Hitler ordered a big concentration
camp built just outside Riga to house the Jews expelled from the Reich and
the occupied Czech territories. p. 378

On the last day of November, on the orders of the local SS
commander .... 4,000 of Riga's unwanted Jews were trucked five miles down
the Dvinsk highway to Skiatowa, plundered, and machine gunned into two or
three pits.  According to one army colonel who witnessed it, a trainload
of Jews from Berlin -- those expelled three days before -- arrived in the
midst of this Aktion; its passengers were taken straight out to the pits
and shot.  This happened even as Hitler .... was instructing Himmler that
these Berlin Jews were not to be liquidated. p. 379

Source: Irving, David, *Goebbels: Mastermind of the Third Reich* Focal
Point: 1996;
US Distributor: IHR, PO Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 Fx: 714 631 0981
(copied from back flyleaf)

COMMENTS:

1)  David Irving is dismissed as a *denier* by the conventionalists on
this board, and yet there is more excrutiating detail on just these three
pages than in scores of other biographies about top Nazis.  Moreover, he
details practically by train every transport of Berlin Jews throughout the
war (because Goebbels' political ascendancy came in that city.)  Indeed,
passages like the above dot the last 200 pages of the book.

2)  Regular US publishers will not publish this book.  Therefore, to
obtain this text, one must either special order from the UK or go through
the IHR.  Whatever one thinks of the IHR, they have in their possession a
very detailed study of an important aspect of the history of the Third
Reich.  If someone balks at buying from the IHR, then they should try to
get this book mainstreamed.

3)  The above three excerpts are buttressed by three finely printed pages
of footnotes, almost all of them keyed to primary documentation.  About
the only secondary text referenced throughout is the German version of
Reitlinger's book. Footnotes comprise about 170 pages of fine text.      

4)  The passages above correlate well with Arno Mayer's take on the Baltic
situation.  In addition, it triangulates well with the testimony of a
Lithuanian Jewish woman that I posted three weeks ago.

5)  Among other things, it demonstrates that the Nazis were not always the
prime movers of these atrocities.  Native populations in the Soviet Union,
acting out their own hatreds and prejudices, frequently anticipated German
policy by murdering on their own.

6)  The passages also give an indication of the scope of attempts by Jews
in front of the advancing German armies to flee.  My guess would be that
most Baltic Jews would flee to the next metropolis: Leningrad, where
650,000 would die in the three year siege.

7)  The passages suggest the extent to which the Jews were not the only
ones to be subjected to savage deportations and executions.  I have
discussed the uniqueness of the Jewish Holocaust elsewhere.

8)  The passages show how -- in simple increments of 1,000 man trains --
the Holocaust was carried out.  Keep in mind that the war went on for
almost _four years_ after the German invasion of Russia.

9)  The passages indicate the extent to which there _were_ labor camps
beyond the extermination camp umbrella (the Sobibor-Treblinka-Belzec
axis).

10)  Finally, the last sentence of the last paragraph brings to notice the
famous telephone log where Hitler instructed Himmler not to liquidate the
1,000 man transport of Berlin Jews.  When Irving first found this datum,
he concluded that no liquidation took place.  Since he was the only
historian to ever look at these things, he trumpeted the fact in his first
Hitler biography.  He was excoriated for this, especially when it was
shown, I believe by Lucy Dawidowicz, that that transport had been shot. 
Nevertheless, it is an interesting datum, reflecting the ambiguity of the
entire process.

  



From ehrlich606@aol.com Thu Jul 25 15:09:07 PDT 1996
Article: 53153 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 3,000,000 Prewar Polish Jews?
Date: 24 Jul 1996 21:48:49 -0400
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In article <4t4v0r$iil@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
(Matt  Giwer) writes:

in response to comments by Ehrlich606, here:
>>>
>>This talk -- which was transcribed into Frank's Diary and which was
turned
>>over to the IMT -- is keyed to minutes of a meeting held, I believe,
early
>>in 1942.  Of course, by this time, there had been promiscuous shootings
>>going on for years.  After the invasion of Russia, six months before,
this
>>violence had gotten worse, usually by the native nationalists who
>>considered the Jews Soviet collaborators.  But, Western Jews, especially
>>German Jews, had been shot at the end of their rail journeys as early as
>>October, 1941, again, usually with participation of locals.
>
>>This is the context in which the Wannsee Conference was held.  My take
on
>>the situation is that extermination was not set in stone at this point. 
>>However, by the summer of 1942, we know that 3,500 Jews incapable of
work
>>from Germany, Austria, and Slovakia were shot in Minsk.  So we know by
>>then that -- at the very least -- Jews not capable of work were being
>>murdered as regular policy.
>
>	Belief is of interest but NKVD "facts" always vary with reality.  
>
>	We have nothing but those folks for evidence.  
>
>	Who dug it up?  Where are the bones?  
>
>	No where.
>
>	I don't mean to play nasty about this but damn when are we going
to get
>physical evidence of any of this?  
>
>	We have been over this here many times.  There simplly is no
physical
>evidence
>to support this nonsense.  
>
>	Just where the hell are those 31 million untracable civlilians
>from  WW II
>and
>why in the hell should we suppose 10% of them were shot or gassed or
>whatever?
>
>
>	I do not see what point you are trying to make here.  There is
simply no
>physical evidence to support the claims.  It is as simple as that.  
>
>
As far as events go in the Soviet Union, it is true that we are forced to
rely on materials, most of which passed through Soviet custody.  As you
know, I think some of this is phony.  But I don't dismiss it all.

Reasons:  First of all, I don't dispute the six million figure.  The most
salient aspect of my skepticism (at least as far as conventionalists are
concerned) is my skepticism over the scope of homicidal gassings.  By the
way, this is not unnatural, insofar as it is well recognized that the
gassing stories are hard to believe:

The deniers consciously fix on those aspects of the Holocaust that
are hardest to believe [i.e., gassings, six million] precisely because
they demand the greatest leap of the imagination.  Lipstadt,
*Denying the Holocaust, p. 90.

On the other hand, I don't find the shooting stories hard to believe, and
there is tons of evidence -- including mass graves -- to support it,
unlike the gassings, where the evidence is much more sparse.  The reason
you don't hear about the mass graves is because most of them are
relatively small (a few thousand or less) and because there were already
many mass graves in the Soviet Union before the Germans invaded.  How many
recall the news story from the Spring of 1989 in the New York Times about
the discovery of a chain of mass graves that apparently contained about
300,000 corpses from the collectivization era?  I didn't think so. And
this grave doesn't have a name burned into our consciousness, and probably
never will.

As per the shootings in Minsk, I tend to go along with David Irving in
accepting this evidence.  It *triangulates* with too much for me to reject
it.  Nor do I have any agenda for rejecting it. OTOH, if you want to
reject it because of the lack of physical evidence, I can see your point,
but I still disagree.




From ehrlich606@aol.com Thu Jul 25 20:02:03 PDT 1996
Article: 53179 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: 24 Jul 1996 16:13:30 -0400
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In article <4se9dk$9ck@elaine24.Stanford.EDU>,
redcloud@leland.Stanford.EDU (Richard James Green) writes:

>
>[posted and e-mailed to Ehrlich606  so that he doesn't miss it.]
>
>There is nothing necessarily inconsistent about reports that Zykon-B is
>blue and that it is mauve.  In my lab we use silica gel with an
>indicator as a dessicant.  When the silica gel is completely dry, it is
>blue.  When it becomes wet, it is pink.  When the dessicant just starts
>to go bad, it has a purplish color; one might even say mauve.
>
>Regards,
>
>Rich Green

Gad, this is an old message.  But as I indicated, I thought it was an
intelligent obvservation, and I repeat that.  I don't agree with the
implication, nevertheless it is an intelligent observation.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Fri Jul 26 05:08:02 PDT 1996
Article: 53297 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another word on Dachau
Date: 17 Jul 1996 15:34:06 -0400
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In article <31ea4bda.344120815@news.zilker.net>, mike@aimetering.com (Mike
Curtis) writes:

>>>
>>Actually, I think it was Richard Widmann who brought the matter up with
>>appropriate quotes from Martin Broszat and Simon Wiesenthal.
>
>Broszat's quote appears to be out of date and Simon Wiesenthal's quote
>is subject to interpretation. I thought YOUR concern was gassing
>testimony and not total denial.
>
>
Obviously, your definition of *Total Denial* means anything less than
*Total Acceptance*


From ehrlich606@aol.com Sat Jul 27 11:57:21 PDT 1996
Article: 53515 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Post your forensic studies here
Date: 24 Jul 1996 11:52:28 -0400
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In article <4t4aa6$2nc@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
(Matt  Giwer) writes:

>
>	I suggest the answer is very simply in the fumigation process. 
Large items
>such as mattresses once fumigated took much longer to air out as people
being
>in contact with them meant being in contact with cyanide while sleeping.
>Very
>bad.  
>
>	So they were carried outside and propped up against the walls for
hours to
>get
>rid of it.  That covers the huge amounts on both the inside and outside
walls
>of some of these buildings.  
>
>

This is entirely plausible.  As Deborah Lipstadt writes, After
fumigation, gas would be trapped in all sorts of nooks and crannies. 
Consequently mattresses, pillows, upholstered furniture, and similar items
had to be shaken or beaten for at least an hour in the open air. *Denying the Holocaust*, p. 224


From ehrlich606@aol.com Sat Jul 27 11:57:22 PDT 1996
Article: 53653 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: auschwitz:myths and facts
Date: 24 Jul 1996 21:24:27 -0400
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In article <4t4nkl$f45@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt
 Giwer) writes:

>
>On Tue, 23 Jul 1996 20:01:24 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:
>
>>Testimony of Dr. Hans W. Muench 
>>[Quoted in "Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military 
>>Tribunals" - Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953, Vol.
>>VIII, p. 313-321]
>>----------------------------------------------------------------------
[snip]
>
>>Q. Mr. witness, did you personally ever witness the gassing of human
>>   beings?
>
>>A. Yes, I saw one gassing at one time.
>
>> .
>> .
>> .
>
>	Excessive delitions spark great curiosity.  
>
More than that, this testimony contradicts the testimony that Muench gave
to Swedish TV decades later.  I am surprised at this. 


From ehrlich606@aol.com Sat Jul 27 11:57:22 PDT 1996
Article: 53753 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Khazars
Date: 27 Jul 1996 09:06:02 -0400
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In article <4t6gbo$q98@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt
 Giwer) writes:

>
>On 24 Jul 1996 12:58:06 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>
>>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>>>  On 24 Jul 1996 03:57:11 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>
>>>  
>>>  >	When did potatoes become part of a Seder?
>>  
>>>  	They were named as part of Seder, idiot.  Read the find thread.  
>
>>	Whoever said so (assuming you are not lying again) was incorrect. 

>>Potatoes are not part of the ritual meal.  Period.
>
>

Unless Dan Quayle is invited.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Sun Jul 28 07:10:28 PDT 1996
Article: 53827 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Schott, Keyes, & Hitler  Re: FREE SPEECH?
Date: 26 Jul 1996 11:08:57 -0400
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In article <4tae0p$3u70@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord
McFee) writes:

>
>In article <4t3hrf$13g@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
>(Ehrlich606) said:
>
>>>(2) Posen: Irving, in Hitler'sd War and elsewhere, makes what could
only
>>be
>>>described as an "interesting" assertion as to the sense of the word
>>>"ausrotten".
>
>>Gord, I don't normally ask questions with the answers in hand.  Thanks
for
>>the answers.  With respect to *ausrotten*, I am sure you are aware that
>>Koppell Pinson, a noted Jewish historian and Simon Dubnow epigone, and
>>therefore fluent in both German _and_ Yiddish, translated *aurotten* as
>>*clearing out.*
>
>Mr. Ehrlich, you may have noticed that we have been around the
"ausrotten"
>mulberry bush dozens of times in this newsgroup.  When the word is
applied
>to living things (see the definition below), it *always* means "to
>exterminate".  This has been settled.
>
>

Uh huh.  So take it up with the manes of Koppel Pinson, who, btw, I am
quoting from his extremely germanophobe *Modern German History.* 





From ehrlich606@aol.com Sun Jul 28 07:10:28 PDT 1996
Article: 53921 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Testimony of a Latvian
Date: 28 Jul 1996 06:55:42 -0400
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Testimony of Fred Wildauer, from Riga, Latvia 

The Russian came in June of 1940.  They sent the German population
back to Germany -- people that lived there for ten generations, ministers,
community leaders.  All of a sudden the doors were open to us, and Jewish
people were equal to the rest of the population.  Of course the Latvians
resented that, and when the Germans marched in in 1941, they were very
willing to help the Germans do what they did to the Jews. 

Comment:  This matches up with Irving's commentary on this.  It also
follows through my original thesis, which is that WW2 featured a lot of
population transfers with a view to creating homogenized populations.  The
Holocaust was both sui generis and primus inter pares in this regard.

The German army was pursuing the Russians, so Latvian collaborators
formed *freedom fighters* with bright red-white-red bands on their
sleeves. The very first night, they came to our house because we were
about half a block away from .... the headquarters of the Russian GPU [aka
NKVD, KGB - E606]

Fred is taken to the headquarters and they are forced to clean
out latrines.  The Latvians are hot to torture and kill them, but the
German officer says no.  The next morning he goes to the factory where he
works.  A couple of Latvians stop him.  But Fred tells them it is his job
to open up the factory, so they let him go.

Later that day a German bureaucrat comes in and changes the way the
factory is to run.  The Jewish man who owns the factory is replaced by a
Latvian.  Fred is needed in the factory so he gets a pass and stays, but
he has to wear a yellow star and walk crosstown to buy groceries at Jewish
stores (he is forbidden to shop just anywhere.)

November 29, 1941, there were placards all over that the ghetto is
going to be moved, and everybody is allowed to take 20 pounds along. 
Everybody put on the most valuable things they had.  If they had diamonds
or money or gold buried in the ground, they dug it out and sewed it into
their clothes to take along.

In the middle of the night I heard shots.  I thought it was in
town, maybe an uprising, Latvians against the Germans.  I didn't realize
Latvian guards were taking the Jews out of the ghetto in groups, into the
woods.  Later we heard that Russian prisoners had dug out trenches, and
the Jewish people had to take off, in orderly German fashion, their shoes,
their coats, their glasses, whatever they had on.  In their underwear they
went into those trenches and were shot there.  Meanwhile, the Germans were
ripping the clothing apart, looking for valuables.

Comment:  This is the massacre that Irving corroborates elsewhere. He
references the Stahlecker report, but also Einsatzgruppen reports, as well
as eavesdropped conversations among high-ranking German POWs who witnessed
it.  He arrives at the 4,000 figure, triangulating among the latter
sources, OTOH, Stahlecker refererences over 20 thousand (and this is the
amount the Fred thinks have been shot).  This is an important point
because a few days later, according to Fred, about 20 of those who had
left sign a letter commenting on better conditions.  This could be either
the well-known postcard scam, or it could be the truth.  Given that Hitler
had ordered a large concentration camp outside of Riga, the truth is
probably a combination of the two.

Fred continues to work in Riga until 1943.  Then he is sent to
a labor camp outside of Riga.  When the Russians approach, the prisoners
are loaded onto a barge and travel from Riga to Stutthof.  After a few
months in Stutthof, when the Russians approach, the prisoners go to
Magdeburg, where they work in yet another camp.  In April they are
liberated by Americans.  Fred finds his wife, and older brother. With at
least part of his family together, they emigrate to America and start new
lives.

souce:  Witness to the Holocaust, ed. Rhoda G. Lewin, pp. 84-94.





From ehrlich606@aol.com Sun Jul 28 07:10:29 PDT 1996
Article: 53932 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The THE himself
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In article <4tejfq$m4f@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken)
writes:

>
>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>
>  
>>  	Until you to that, it stands as a MIRACLE.  
>
>	Hardly.  It stands as a statement of what might or might not have 
>happened.  While it may be attacked as being medically improbable, I will
>wait for 
>someone with credentials to tell me that.  You hardly qualify as your
medical
>
>opinions heretofore posted here are so questionable (you failed to
recognize,
>for 
>example, that the mechanism for death when air is injected into the heart
is
>a 
>process of thrombosis resulting in a pulmonary embolism) as to be
>non-existant.
>
>	But perhaps you would care to comment on this case:  a man shoots 
>himself in the mouth with a .38 special revolver five times.  Two of the
>bullets pass 
>through his cranium (i.e. his braincase -- you can look it up in "Grey's"
>Anatomy).  
>He lives for approximately 10 hours and is conscious part of the time.
>
>	Is that so incredible that it should not be believed, Mr. Giwer? 
Will you 
>call that a MIRACLE and state that it did not happen?
>
>

I think you are on better ground suggesting that Mr. Peer's memory is
faulty and letting it go at that.  To argue that it would be possible for
an individual to survive several gassings is not a very good idea.  For
one thing, it fails to address the issue of why he would have been allowed
to survive the gassings.  In other words, you not only have the miracle of
surviving the gassing, but you also have the miracle of the SS allowing
him to survive the gassing, not once, but six times.

This is not to say that I do not enjoy all of the medical Ripley stuff you
are posting.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Sun Jul 28 12:40:52 PDT 1996
Article: 53972 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: 28 Jul 1996 05:54:07 -0400
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In article <4tbjba$2a8@access5.digex.net>, mstein@access5.digex.net
(Michael P. Stein) writes:

>
>In article <4st2lo$s8c@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
>Ehrlich606  wrote:
>>I think we are talking about two different things.  I have in mind the
>>apparent formic acid agent that was added as a warning stuff (the
>>*lachrymogen*).  It has been generally conceded that most ZB that ended
up
>>in the KZ system lacked this ingredient.
>
>    This is not correct.  As I have posted twice in another thread, the
>amount was reduced in 1941, but it was not removed completely until 1944.
>
>

OK, let's get it straight.  When was it reduced, by how much, and what the
reason, as well as the documentation.  Second, when was it removed, what
reason, and what is the documentation.  I know the Hoess memo from the
summer of '42 (I believe it is), and the Gerstein invoices.  That is all I
know about.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Sun Jul 28 12:40:53 PDT 1996
Article: 53975 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: 28 Jul 1996 05:59:01 -0400
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In article <4tbjpj$2hu@access5.digex.net>, mstein@access5.digex.net
(Michael P. Stein) writes:

>
>    Would you like to look at the title of the book one of these
>centuries? 
>
>    "Schaedlingsbekaempfung."
>
>    Need help finding a German dictionary?

PEST control.  This is old.  We know that there were several carriers,
several types (ABCDE), and several prices.  Now what _exactly_ was the
difference among them? Since no one has ever answered these relatively
simple questions which admittedly have no direct bearing on the gassings
per se, I must assume _nobody__knows_!

This is as good a time as any to comment on the *technical* commentary
Peters' provides.  All he says is that the greater part is evolved after a
half an hour.  Now that is not what I would call scientific or technical
commentary.  It sounds like a commercial.  The argument is 1/2 hour at 20
C for 37%, progressing geometrically.  At least those are concrete
numbers.  If someone else has fixed percentages, let's have them.  There
were such things as dispersal rates in 1933.

  


From ehrlich606@aol.com Sun Jul 28 12:40:53 PDT 1996
Article: 53991 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: 28 Jul 1996 15:21:42 -0400
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In article <4tfqf4$nlh@access5.digex.net>, mstein@access5.digex.net
(Michael P. Stein) writes:

>
>
>>This is as good a time as any to comment on the *technical* commentary
>>Peters' provides.  All he says is that the greater part is evolved after
a
>>half an hour.  Now that is not what I would call scientific or technical
>>commentary.  It sounds like a commercial.  The argument is 1/2 hour at
20
>>C for 37%, progressing geometrically.  At least those are concrete
>>numbers.  If someone else has fixed percentages, let's have them.  There
>>were such things as dispersal rates in 1933.
>
>    Try getting product documentation on _anything_ manufactured in 1933
>but not made today - especially if the company is no longer in existence,
>at least in its original form.
>
>

My attitude on this is since we can't get specifics we should really drop
it.  Neither the 37% hypothesis nor the Peters' comment are mutually
exclusive in the sense that nobody at this point in time is arguing for
complete outgassing in 10 minutes or even in one half hour.

Now this was the point of Lueftl's calculations.  He claimed that if the
ZB was put in, someone would have to clean it up.  The *wastefulness*
argument, IMHO, is not really relevant.  Whether 92% is still in after 10
minutes, or something else, the point is that the ZB is going to be
dangerous and still outgas for some time after opening the can.

All right.  But since the argument now goes that there are gas masks as
well as induction tubes (actually, I gather prisms that contain the
pellets, lowered by wire into the tube), and that the prisms are removed,
we don't have an problem here anymore.

Therefore I conclude that the outgassing time of ZB is not really an issue
anymore, since everyone (even Lueftl) concedes that 10 minutes is enough
time to kill everyone on the chamber (The one caveat here is the problem
of the gas escaping through the baffles of the prism and the induction
column, but that is best addressed by an engineer.)  The only other
problem here is that Nyiszli, for example, claims that the fans were not
turned on for 30 minutes.

The other reason why this becomes an issue is because of the relatively
low (top out at 7.9 mg/kg) of cyanide compounds in Krema II, especially
when compared to the delousing chambers.  The argument here is also that
the induction and extraction of gas was done promptly, the gas was
ventilated quickly, and therefore the cyanide compounds are low.  I don't
find that impossible in theory.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Sun Jul 28 16:30:36 PDT 1996
Article: 53999 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Hitler Praises Jews
Date: 26 Jul 1996 22:14:26 -0400
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The same Hitler who had issued ruthless orders for the execution of
the Soviet commissars was by no means as hostile as Goebbels desired
toward western Europe's more cultivated Jews.  He heard Hitler speak
warmly of both the composer Gustav Mahler and the producer Max Reinhardt
(Max Goldmann), and concede that in their performances the Jews were often
*not bad.* p. 369

Source: Irving, David, *Goebbels: Mastermind of the Third Reich* Focal
Point: 1996;
US Distributor: IHR, PO Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 Fx: 714 631 0981
(copied from back flyleaf)

COMMENT: definitely hard to believe, keyed to a Goebbel's Diary entry of
12/22/1940.
Max Reinhardt was _very_ important in the German theater: he co-founded
the Salzburg Festival.



From ehrlich606@aol.com Sun Jul 28 16:30:37 PDT 1996
Article: 54016 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hitler Praises Jews
Date: 28 Jul 1996 12:45:20 -0400
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In article <4teqbp$54i@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>, rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU
(Richard J. Green) writes:

>
>In article <4tbu22$b78@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
>Ehrlich606  wrote:
>>
>>
>>The same Hitler who had issued ruthless orders for the execution
of
>>the Soviet commissars was by no means as hostile as Goebbels desired
>>toward western Europe's more cultivated Jews.  He heard Hitler speak
>>warmly of both the composer Gustav Mahler and the producer Max Reinhardt
>>(Max Goldmann), and concede that in their performances the Jews were
often
>>*not bad.* p. 369
>>
>>Source: Irving, David, *Goebbels: Mastermind of the Third Reich* Focal
>>Point: 1996;
>>US Distributor: IHR, PO Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 Fx: 714 631
0981
>>(copied from back flyleaf)
>>
>>COMMENT: definitely hard to believe, keyed to a Goebbel's Diary entry of
>>12/22/1940.
>>Max Reinhardt was _very_ important in the German theater: he co-founded
>>the Salzburg Festival.
>
>22 December 1940 (Sunday)
>
>...
>
>We discuss issues affecting the theatre.  The Fu"hrer is very
>interested.  He explains such phenomena as Mahler or Max Reinhardt,
>whose abilities and achievements he does not deny.  The Jew can 
>often be  quite successful when it comes to mimicry.
>
>_The Goebbel's Diaries 1939-1941_, translated by Fred Taylor, p. 214,
>Putnam and Sons, New York (1983).
>
>My Comment: Irving seems to interpret this comment as more complimentary
>than would be expected.  Perhaps, Irving is a fan of mimicry.
>
>
Actually, at this point it would be interesting to know what the German
wording is.  Here, according to your translation, his praise of Mahler and
Reinhardt is confirmed.  What mimicry has to with it, I do not know.

But what is surprising about this to me -- and here I also respond to
Mike, whose message I can't find -- is that Hitler would praise Reinhardt
and particularly Mahler.

Anyone familiar with German culture is aware of the tremendous censorship
of the arts under the Third Reich.  The music of Mahler and Mendelssohn
was banned.  I remember that when Willem Mengelberg (who was a friend of
Mahler's) conducted one of his symphonies in occupied Holland it was
regarded as a major act of defiance.

Similarly, the loss of Jewish executants, particularly in the German
musical scene was profound after the Nazi takeover, I mention only Otto
Klemperer, Erich Kleiber, Leo Blech (a full Jew who returned to Germany
immediately after the war), Bruno Walter, Friedrich Schorr, Arthur
Schnabel, Bronislaw Huberman, Szymon Goldberg (concertmaster for the
Berlin PO, in those days), Gregor Piatagorsky (first cello in the  Berlin
PO, in those days), and many many others.

Similarly, the reputation of German musicians who stayed in Germany
suffered greatly for decades after WW2, including Richard Strauss, Wilhelm
Furtwangler, Walter Gieseking, Clemens Krauss, Willem Mengelberg and many
others. (Strangely, the only one to have actually been a member of the
Nazi party, Herbert von Karajan, went onto a career of stupefying
success.)

Therefore to hear Hitler praising Jewish performers/composers/theater
directors is a surprise to me, especially since the policies of his
government did so much to polarize the musical world for so long after his
death.

But what the above quote seems to suggest, and Irving pursues in some
detail elsewhere in his book, is that the exclusion of Jews from German
artistic life was not so much a case of Hitler's rabid anti-semitism as it
was a case of Goebbel's malevolent exclusions often for political
purposes.  And that means something: rabid anti-semites would not be
praising Mahler or Max Reinhardt.

  


From ehrlich606@aol.com Sun Jul 28 16:30:37 PDT 1996
Article: 54030 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photographs from BELSEN Camp
Date: 28 Jul 1996 12:42:28 -0400
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In article <838484554snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>, Alexander Baron
 writes:

>
>In article  dkeren@world.std.com "Daniel Keren"
>writes:
>> Our Nazi-lovers cannot give evidence of *one* SS-man or woman, 
>> nor of any German soldier, who starved to death in the camps.
>
>I found a report in a medical journal from c1946 which reported some
deaths
>from malnutrition alone after the war; it wouldn't surprise me if many
>Germans
>did die. Check out "Decision in Germany". 
>
>

The malnutrition and death by starvation of many Germans and Austrians
after both WW1 and WW2 is well known by anyone who reads books.  With
regard to Germany after WW2, there was a popular history *In the Ruins of
the Reich* which came out a few years ago.  Alfred M. De Zayas' *Nemesis
at Potsdam* covers this as well as the expulsions in great detail.  The
British Jewish publisher, Victor Gollancz, wrote two books in the
immediate postwar era, *Our Threatened Values* and *In Darkest Germany*
which helped publicize the terrible conditions that persisted in Germany
to the English speaking world.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Mon Jul 29 14:06:41 PDT 1996
Article: 54057 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer's Wannsee-bubbles burst by the report of a Sonderkommando
Date: 27 Jul 1996 23:43:39 -0400
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In article <4t7sqp$nf8@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>,
abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels) writes:

>
>   The following excerpt is the progress report of a Waffen-SS
>Sonderkommando in the Minsk area. Progress reports like this were
>sent on a regular basis to the command staff of the Reichsfnhrer
>SS. Their purpose was to give a concise overview of the situation,
>and on the long run to provide material for the historicist, as
>the "Bestimmungen fnr die Fnhrung von Kriegstagebnchern und
>T_tigkeitsberichten" prescribe.
>   The excerpt has been translated from _Unsere Ehre hei_t Treue:
>Kriegstagebuch des Kommandostabes Reischfnhrer SS, T_tigkeitsberichte
>der 1. und 2. SS-Inf.-Brigade, der 1. SS-Kav.-Brigade und von Sonder-
>kommandos der SS_, Wien, Frankfurt, Znrich: Europa, 1965, pp. 242f.
>The publication is a facsimile reproduction of the original files.
>The papers show all marks, signaturs and stamps of usual military
>paperwork. Handwritten parts are in correct Sntterlin.
>   The quoted report was written in the second half of 1942. It
>has to be seen escpecially in the context of the Wannsee-Konferenz
>because it illustrates the real meaning of the "evacuations" to
>the east.
>
>

This is excellent!  Moreover, it confirms what I posted about Minsk the
other day. 


From ehrlich606@aol.com Mon Jul 29 14:06:42 PDT 1996
Article: 54083 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Mauve in Hungarian
Date: 28 Jul 1996 18:54:01 -0400
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Just FYI, since Dr. Nyiszli claimed that mauve was the color of Zyklon, I
checked it out.  In Hungarian, mauve is *malyvaszinu*, carrying an aigu
accent on the first *a* and a double-aigu on the last *u*.  *Ly* in
Hungarian functions as a slashed *L* in Polish, or a palatalized *L* in
Russian, that is, it is the sound of the *L* in *leaf* palatalized
virtually into non-existence.  Pronounced, therefore: *Muyvaseenu* where
the *uy* is the diphthong in *buy* but very tight, and the final *u* is
like the *u* in *ueber* but lengthened.

The word means literally, the color of mallows, which is we know is a
tannish lavender, but not blue.  BTW, there are several Hungarian words
for *blue*, all involving variations of *kek*, pronounced like *cake* but
far forward in the mouth.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Mon Jul 29 14:06:42 PDT 1996
Article: 54097 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photographs from BELSEN Camp
Date: 28 Jul 1996 20:39:08 -0400
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In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
(Mark Van Alstine) writes:

>
>In article <4tg59k$qfk@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
>(Ehrlich606) wrote:
>
>> In article <838484554snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>, Alexander Baron
>>  writes:
>> 
>> >
>> >In article  dkeren@world.std.com "Daniel
Keren"
>> >writes:
>> >> Our Nazi-lovers cannot give evidence of *one* SS-man or woman, 
>> >> nor of any German soldier, who starved to death in the camps.
>> >
>> >I found a report in a medical journal from c1946 which reported some
>> >deathsfrom malnutrition alone after the war; it wouldn't surprise me
if 
>> >many Germans did die. Check out "Decision in Germany". 
>> 
>> The malnutrition and death by starvation of many Germans and Austrians
>> after both WW1 and WW2 is well known by anyone who reads books.  With
>> regard to Germany after WW2, there was a popular history *In the Ruins
of
>> the Reich* which came out a few years ago.  Alfred M. De Zayas'
*Nemesis
>> at Potsdam* covers this as well as the expulsions in great detail.  The
>> British Jewish publisher, Victor Gollancz, wrote two books in the
>> immediate postwar era, *Our Threatened Values* and *In Darkest Germany*
>> which helped publicize the terrible conditions that persisted in
Germany
>> to the English speaking world.
>
>Indeed. The immediate post-war sufferings of the German people have been
>written about and documented. The challange that Dr. Keren has posed (not
>for the first time either) to Mr. Baron, however, was quite specific: 
>
>"Name one SS-man, SS-woman, or soldier from Belsen who was
>starving, while more than 50,000 inmates died.

But this is a strawman, or red herring, or whatever you want to call it. 
First of all, be accurate.  50,000 people did not die in Belsen in the
last weeks of the war or thereafter. 

Now as to the point.  How many SS personnel were at the camp?  Maybe a few
hundred.  Obviously, there was enough food to feed them.  But food for a
few hundred does not multiply into food for tens of thousands.  The SS
could have chosen to distribute the food in equal portions for all.  As a
result, they all would have starved.  It is worth noting in the first two
years of Allied occupation I don't recall hearing of any Allied personnel
who died of starvation.  But tens, if not hundreds of thousands of Germans
did.  The logic for this just doesn't stand up.

In addition, a senior British doctor wrote a book shortly after the war,
describing the situation in Belsen.  He noted that, in fact, the deaths
were not the result of deliberate starvation and that he had seen records
>from  the previous fall indicating that there was plenty of food.  Also you
have to explain away all of Kramer's increasing desperate requests for
assistance.  Go ahead.

>
>"Explain the fact that all these unfortunate accidents of the
>water pump breaking down, the bread truck not being allowed
>in, bla-bla, happened only in the concentration camps.

Dan is under a misapprehension that nothing like this happened elsewhere. 
It did.  Allied POW's ran out of food that Spring, also.  Look at the
photographs.  Then, go on and compare the photographs of several inmates
like Buchenwald, Auschwitz, and other locations where several of the
inmates, although not in the peak of health, are not emaciated either.

There was a typhus epidemic in Belsen, brought to the camp by Hungarians.
(Probably transferred from AB.)  This contributed to the problem.  Kramer
specifically references supply trains that were shot up by Alllied planes.
The conventionalist position becomes a lot more credible if the contrary
theses and facts are entertained.

>
>"Explain the fact that, out of all the British and American
>POW's captured by the Nazis, 3 percent died in captivity,
>while in Belsen the death rate was more than 50 (and, clearly,
>if the British Army would not have arrived there, it would
>have been a 100).

Simply put, they were not subjected to typhus epidemics.

>
>"There is a very simple explanation, but you refuse to accept
>it; just like any other fanatic, you refuse to accept reality.

The simple explanation is that the Nazis didn't care whether these people
lived or died. OK, the Allies obviously didn't care if the German civilian
population lived or died either, when they bombed 600,000 of them to
smithereens during the strategic bombing offensive.  But neither case
proves an extermination program.

>
>Bringing up German post-war tribulations in regards to the intentionally
>horrid conditions inflicted on the prisoners of Bergen-Belsen by the
Nazis
>is nothiong more than a red herring. A typical denier tactic, btw, when
no
>valid rebuttal can be made. 

Hundreds of thousands of Germans perished after both world wars, largely
due to Allied failure to lift the blockade (after WW1) and distribute food
(WW2).  Comparable results, but again, anyone who levels an *extermination
program* thesis under those conditions is dismissed as paranoid.

>
>Please, Ehrlich606, do try to stay on track here. 
>
>
OK, so why don't you start by explaining why Kramer would allow his camp
to be taken over with thousands of corpses laying around, knowing full
well that it would be a public relations disaster, but nevertheless he did
it on purpose?




From ehrlich606@aol.com Mon Jul 29 14:06:43 PDT 1996
Article: 54102 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: 29 Jul 1996 01:27:48 -0400
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In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
(Mark Van Alstine) writes:

>Subject:	Re: Mauving right along
>From:	mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
>Date:	29 Jul 1996 02:21:09 GMT
>
>In article <4tgek6$tm@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
>(Ehrlich606) wrote:
>
>> In article <4tfqf4$nlh@access5.digex.net>, mstein@access5.digex.net
>> (Michael P. Stein) writes:
>> 
>> >>This is as good a time as any to comment on the *technical*
commentary
>> >>Peters' provides. All he says is that the greater part is evolved
after
>> >>a half an hour. Now that is not what I would call scientific or 
>> >>technical commentary.  It sounds like a commercial. The argument is 
>> >>1/2 hour at 20 C for 37%, progressing geometrically.  At least those
>> >>are concrete numbers.  If someone else has fixed percentages, let's 
>> >>have them.  There were such things as dispersal rates in 1933.
>> >
>> >Try getting product documentation on _anything_ manufactured in 1933
>> >but not made today - especially if the company is no longer in
existence,
>> >at least in its original form.
>> 
>> My attitude on this is since we can't get specifics we should really
drop
>> it. Neither the 37% hypothesis nor the Peters' comment are mutually
>> exclusive in the sense that nobody at this point in time is arguing for
>> complete outgassing in 10 minutes or even in one half hour.
>
>If you had followed the various discusions for the last several months
you
>would have realized that this _was_ the gist of many denier arguments.
>That it _was_ argued that homicidal gassings didn't take place _because_
>eyewitness testimonies said it took about 5-10 minutes, then 20 minutes
or
>so to evacuate the gas chamber, and that because (allegedly) Zyklon B
took
>longer than this to evolve all the HCN "proved" that the eyewitnesses
were
>"lying." Ergo, no gassings took place. 

This is not true.  The *denier* position, as you so mischaracterize has
been: (a) the evolution of ZB is such that it would have to be removed
>from  the room before it could be fully ventilated, (b) the concept of
induction columns is described by few eyewitnesses, and correctly by
perhaps none (e.g., Nyiszli), (c) the evolution of the gas _could_ be a
problem in light of the volume of the tube which would fill with gas
before spilling out into the chamber.
>
>This is utter nonsense on the part of the deniers of course. 

*of course* is gratuitous here.  But you know that.

And now, when
>presented with evidence that Zyklon B _did_ rapidly evolve much, if not
>most, of the HCN in about 10 minutes or so you suggest we "drop" the
>discussion as we "we can't get specifics?"

I said no such thing.  And you know that.

 _That_ is utter nonsense on
>_your_ part, Ehrlich606. Is this to be yet _another_ topic you jump on
>your rhetorical high horse (hobby horse?) and ride away from? 

As usual, the tired van Alstine resorts to cheap ad hominems because he
would rather persuade people by appealing to their emotions than their
logic.

>
>> Now this was the point of Lueftl's calculations.  He claimed that if
the
>> ZB was put in, someone would have to clean it up.  The *wastefulness*
>> argument, IMHO, is not really relevant.  Whether 92% is still in after
10
>> minutes, or something else, the point is that the ZB is going to be
>> dangerous and still outgas for some time after opening the can.
>
>So much for you "dropping" discusion on this as "we can't get specifics!"

>
>Hypocrite.  

Another gratuitous assault, as predictable in a van Alstine post sun after
a shower.

>
>> All right.  But since the argument now goes that there are gas masks as
>> well as induction tubes (actually, I gather prisms that contain the
>> pellets, lowered by wire into the tube), and that the prisms are
removed,
>> we don't have an problem here anymore.
>
>The was never a _real_ problem in the first place! 

Of course there was.  There was a major problem until Pressac wrote his
book.  And of course, there have evidently been problems since, as Pressac
has revised the book several times, and it is still not possible to obtain
the book mainstream.  Or perhaps you want to claim it is at Waldenbooks.

The "problem" was, as
>is typical, with the deniers. It was a problem of distortion, deceit, and
>turning a blind eye to the evidence. In other words, the usual denier
>antics. 

As with all conventionalist ripostes, it is a problem of distortion, rabid
appeals to emotion, and cliche ad hominems.

>
>> Therefore I conclude that the outgassing time of ZB is not really an
issue
>> anymore, since everyone (even Lueftl) concedes that 10 minutes is
enough
>> time to kill everyone on the chamber (The one caveat here is the
problem
>> of the gas escaping through the baffles of the prism and the induction
>> column, but that is best addressed by an engineer.)  
>
>The "problem" of "gas escaping through the baffles" is yet another
example
>of denier "problems." The "solution," of course, sits there right in
front
>of your face: _Holzblenden_. Each of the four
>_Drahtnetzeinschiebvorrichtung_ came equipped with a _Holzblenden_. (cf.
>_Anatomy_, p.233.) 

What do Holzblenden have to do with it?  Describe precisely how that would
work.

>
>According to Henryk Tauber:
>
>"...Through the window of the <>, I observed how the
><> [Zyklon B] was poured into the gas chamber. Each transport was
>followed by a vehicle with Red Cross markings which entered the yard of
>the crematorium, carrying the camp doctor, Mengele, accompanied by
>Rottenfu"hrer [corporal] Scheimetz. They took the cans of <> from
>the car and put them beside the small chimneys used to introduce the
><> into the gas chamber. There Scheimetz opened them with a
>special cold chisel [with a ring of teeth at its head] and a hammer, then
>poured the contents into the gas chamber. Then he closed the orifice with
>a concrete [or wooden] cover. As there were four similar chimneys,
>Scheimetz poured into each the contents of one of the smallest cans of
><>, which had yellow labels pasted right around them [see
>Documents 32, 33, and 34]. Before openiung the cans, Scheimetz put on a
>gas mask [see Document 35] which he wore while opening the cans and
>pouring in the product. There were also other SS who performed this
>operation, but I have forgotten their names. They were specially
>designated for it and belonged top the <> [health
>service]. A camp doctor [SS] was present at each gassing...."
>(_Technique_. p.494.)

This is all totally irrelevant.  But it's good to see you made sure that
Mengele was in on all the gassings.  A nice touch.  But I will hold you to
the proposition that four cans were used in four openings.

>
>The SS "disinfector" simply closed the cover on the "little chimney,"
>which would have prevented any HCN gas from escaping. What a concept.
Such
>clever Nazis.  

Not surprisingly, you totally miss the point, as usual.

>
>> ...The only other problem here is that Nyiszli, for example, claims
that
>the 
>> fans were not turned on for 30 minutes.
>
>Isn't it rather pathetic of deniers, after they try to discredit
>eyewitnesses when the eyewitnesses' testimonies contradicts their pet
>"arguments" and that they will then turn around and cite the very same
>eyewitnesses as an authority when they feel it _supports_ their
arguments?
>
>
>Hypocrite.

More gratuitous ad hominems.  But, btw, I am not concerned with Nyiszli's
veracity.  It is up to _you_ to defend it.  You fail to do so, directly,
instead you invoke Pressac, below:

>
>But to address the "problem," I would cite Pressac's explination:
>
>"...The SS chose Zyklon-B for its high degree of toxicity on warm blooded
>animals, including man. The meticulous care stipulated in NI-9912 has no
>sense in homicidal gassing, because this changed the situation radically.
>The space where the gas was used was closed and gas-tight. No furniture,
>bedding or floor covering. The floor, walls and ceilings were of bare
>concrete (except for about twenty dummy wooden shower heads installed in
>the ceiling). Forced-draught ventilation would be relatively efficient in
>these circumstances.

Pressac ignores that a crush of human bodies also has a lot of nooks and
crannies.  You know, the kind that causes *suffocating coughs* in Nyiszli,
but _not_ in any safety manuals on the handling of HCN.

 After 15 minutes of ventilation the air in the room
>would be completely renewed. A homicidal gassing (using 5 to 7kg of
>Zyklon-B for 1000 to 2000 persons) would last about twenty minutes: 5
>minutes for the action of the HCN bringing swift death (the quantity
>introduced being 40 times the lethal dose) and 15 minutes of ventilation

And now we are down to five minutes, contradicting several witnesses.  Get
it together Mark.  The door is opened after 1/2 hour, not 20 minutes. 
BTW, thanks for confirming that four 2 kg cans were used.  This is good!

>BEFORE BEING ABLE TO OPEN THE GAS TIGHT DOOR. Although a part of the
toxic
>gas had been inhaled by the victims, this was negligible with respect to
>the quantity remaining due to the initial overdose.
>
>"Here, Faurisson is right when he states that the operating sequences as
>described by the witnesses give rise to an almost insurmountable
>difficulty.

Yes.

 For example, Camp Commandant Hoess and Dr. Nyiszli report
>EXACTLY the same sequence: pouring of Zyklon-B through the openings in
the
>ceiling, the pellets running down the four wire mesh columns and rapid

Where does Hoess talk about the wire mesh?  Also, Nyiszli doesn't call
them wire mesh, either.

>diffusion of HCN by evaporation in the room <> by human body
>heat. In 5 to 10 minutes everybody was dead. Then there was a FURTHER
wait
>of 20 to 30 minutes BEFORE switching on the ventilation. The door was
>opened and the extraction of bodies commenced immediately (<>).
>But why wait 20 to 30 minutes after the complete death of the victims
>before opening the door? This is a waste of time when we consider the
>rapid throughput rates imposed by the SS, always in a hurry. 

According to what documentation?

Hoess and
>Nyiszli are mistaken as regards the moment at which the ventilation
began.

According to Pressac, who is making this up as he goes along.  What is the
proof that they are mistaken?

>It was in fact

What is the proof of this fact?

 switched on not more than 10 minutes AFTER the introduction
>of the gas and it was left running FOR 20 to 30 minutes BEFORE the door
>was opened. The witnesses state the contrary, and for them it is the
>truth. The fact is that as long as the gas-tight door remained closed, no
>SOUND could be heard and people could see INTO the gas chamber only
>through the inspection peephole. The switching of the ventilation could
>not be heard because the motor was located in the roof space of the
>Crematorium and the witnesses were in the basement. What is more, there
>were five or six electric motors in the roof space, three of them being
>used for other ventilation systems. How was it possible to distinguish
the
>noise of the gas chamber ventilation motor if that of the furnace room,
of
>the same power, was running at the same time? In truth, the witnesses
>HEARD the noise of ventilator fans WHEN the door was opened and they had
>THE IMPRESSION that the ventilaton has just been switched on.
>(_Technique_, p.16.)

Now there is another problem here.  Where is the gas escaping to?  Not out
the *little chimneys* I hope, because they have concrete lids on them to
prevent gas from escaping.  So how is the gas blown out?  Through what
openings?  The same ones the gas was put in?  Have the SS taken the little
prisms up yet?

>
>> The other reason why this becomes an issue is because of the relatively
>> low (top out at 7.9 mg/kg) of cyanide compounds in Krema II, especially
>> when compared to the delousing chambers.  
>
>Please elaborate. Are you suggesting that using ZYklon B for the
>disinfection of clothes, which was done at high HCN concentrations for
>_hours_ would _not_ produce higher traces of HCN in the delousing
chambers
>than it would in the jhomicidal gas chambers which were exposed to HCN
for
>tens of minutes? Is this, perchance, another one of your denier
>"problems?" Should I get your horse for this one too? 

Judging by your responses I think you have had far too much time with my
horse as it is.

>
>> The argument here is also that the induction and extraction of gas was
done
>
>> promptly, the gas was ventilated quickly, and therefore the cyanide
>compounds 
>> are low. I don't find that impossible in theory.
>
>How comforting. How gracious of you. :-/

You are welcome, I am sure. :)
>
>Mark
>
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
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>
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>
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>From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
>Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>Subject: Re: Mauving right along
>Date: 29 Jul 1996 02:21:09 GMT
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From ehrlich606@aol.com Mon Jul 29 14:06:44 PDT 1996
Article: 54213 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hitler praises Jews-let's all praise Hitler!
Date: 29 Jul 1996 13:18:18 -0400
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In article <4tfh35$pch@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com writes:

>Subject:	Hitler praises Jews-let's all praise Hitler!
>From:	rblackmore@juno.com
>Date:	28 Jul 1996 10:57:41 GMT
>
>Of course Hitler's praise was demonstrated by banning the music of Jewish
>composers from being played in Germany.
>
>

That's the interesting part.  Apparently there was a disjunction between
his personal tastes and the tastes which he allowed Goebbels to impose on
Germany.  


From ehrlich606@aol.com Mon Jul 29 14:06:45 PDT 1996
Article: 54214 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Goering's remarks shocked Speer?
Date: 29 Jul 1996 13:18:17 -0400
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In article <4tfgsj$pch@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com writes:

>Subject:	Goering's remarks shocked Speer?
>From:	rblackmore@juno.com
>Date:	28 Jul 1996 10:54:11 GMT
>
>Goering's remarks shocked Speer?  Perhaps Speer's remarks would shock
>Goering.  I hate to quibble over words, but 
>Goering's order to Heydrich was not "Endloesung" (Final Solution), but
>"Gesamtloesung" (Total Solution) and actually dealt 
>with logistics and so on-not with exterminating people.
>
>
>

You are right about this, of course.  It also appears (consult Irving, and
even Bullock) that Goering merely signed the memo which was drafted by
Heydrich.

But there are several people on this board who believe that if you repeat
something often enough it will become true, sort of like if we all believe
hard enough Tinkerbell will come back to life.  *Look!  There she is!*


From ehrlich606@aol.com Mon Jul 29 14:06:46 PDT 1996
Article: 54215 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'Revisionist' Nonsense (Re: Anti-Fascist Organisation De
Date: 29 Jul 1996 13:18:19 -0400
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In article <01bb7ca4$e6052c00$33f612c7@jrjohn.cannet.com>, "Fr. John W.
Morris"  writes:

>
>> 
>> 2) Re Dachau: photos of a letter from Rascher to Himmler,
>>    in which he states that gassing installations are being
>>    built in Dachau and suggests to use them to test combat
>>    gases on humans, are in
>> 
>Fr. John W. Morris responds:
>
>You have built a straw man and have knocked him down. It is absolutely
true
>that Dachau was not an extermination camp. No student of Nazi Germany
>claims that it was. The extermination camps, Auschwitz-Birkennau,
>Treblinka, etc, were not in Germany. They were in Poland. Thus when a
>"revisionists" tries to confuse the discussion by proving that there were
>no death camps in Germany, he or she is right. But that proves nothing,
>because no one claims that there were death camps in Germany.
>
>Fr. John +
>
>
>
Uh, I don't think you have been here long enough.  Gassing took place
everywhere that witnesses claim it took place.  The problem is that there
are witnesses who claim that gassings took place everywhere.  If you say
otherwise, you will be called a denier.



From ehrlich606@aol.com Tue Jul 30 07:34:26 PDT 1996
Article: 54328 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: 30 Jul 1996 01:49:59 -0400
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In article <4tisd1$cbl@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>, rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU
(Richard J. Green) writes:

>
>>The "problem" was, as
>>>is typical, with the deniers. It was a problem of distortion, deceit,
and
>>>turning a blind eye to the evidence. In other words, the usual denier
>>>antics. 
>>
>>As with all conventionalist ripostes, it is a problem of distortion,
rabid
>>appeals to emotion, and cliche ad hominems.
>
>Please point out didstortions on the part of "conventionalists."  So far
>you have failed to do that.  I can only conclude that you are engaging
>in argumentum ad hominem.

Read the tone of MVA's address throughout, as well as his comments towards
me.
>
>...
>
>>According to Pressac, who is making this up as he goes along.  What is
the
>>proof that they are mistaken?
>
>Is Ehrlich accusing Pressac of fabrication?  I assume he has good
>evidence for this claim.

Until I see _proof_ for the paragraph where Pressac argues for the fan
kicking in after 5 minutes, other than his orotund description of fan
motors in the roof of the Krema, I will be forced to conclude that he is
making it up.  I note that you snipped it out.


>
>



From ehrlich606@aol.com Tue Jul 30 07:34:27 PDT 1996
Article: 54338 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McFlea
Date: 29 Jul 1996 14:16:32 -0400
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In article <29JUL199606250989@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>,
dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) writes:

>
>In article <4thidu$k1k@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il>, schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il
(Richard
>Schultz) writes...
>>Danny Mittleman (dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu) wrote:
>>: In article <4tadum$4bja@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net
writes...
>> 
>>:: Next he'll be calling me fatbroad.
>> 
>>: When Michael Keaton posted here, Giwer called him a batfraud.
>> 
>>.. . . and when someone plugged his modem in at a fraternity house, he
>>called it fratbaud. . .
>
>    And when Giwer went to Saudi Arabia and offered the king a sausage,
he
>    said, "brat, Faud?"

That's the wurst so far.

Ok, so don't forget the heroine of de Maupassant's *Boule de suif* -- a
fat bawd.



From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jul 31 13:58:12 PDT 1996
Article: 54492 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust Revisionism-Zyklon's Warning Compound
Date: 30 Jul 1996 21:55:39 -0400
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In article <4tktfh$d0h@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com writes:

>Date:	30 Jul 1996 11:59:45 GMT
>
>The additive in Zyklon which gave off a preliminary scent was removed by
>Degesch in 1940, before the so-called extermination 
>program ever got under way, and it had nothing to do with killing Jews. 
How
>do I know that?
>
>

DO tell!


From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jul 31 13:58:13 PDT 1996
Article: 54493 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: 30 Jul 1996 21:48:48 -0400
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In article <4tk3d5$ha7@access5.digex.net>, mstein@access5.digex.net
(Michael P. Stein) writes:

>
>In article <4thi4k$fdj@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
>Ehrlich606  wrote:
>>In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
>>(Mark Van Alstine) writes:
>>
>
>[snip]
>
>>>This is utter nonsense on the part of the deniers of course. 
>>
>>*of course* is gratuitous here.  But you know that.
>
>    Hmn.
>
>
>>And now, when
>>>presented with evidence that Zyklon B _did_ rapidly evolve much, if not
>>>most, of the HCN in about 10 minutes or so you suggest we "drop" the
>>>discussion as we "we can't get specifics?"
>>
>>I said no such thing.  And you know that.
>
>    Pardon me?  Going back to your previous post in the thread, I find:
>
>"My attitude on this is since we can't get specifics we should really
drop
>it.  Neither the 37% hypothesis nor the Peters' comment are mutually
>exclusive in the sense that nobody at this point in time is arguing for
>complete outgassing in 10 minutes or even in one half hour."
>
>    I did not realize that amnesia was contagious, especially over the
>Internet.  Yet here you are developing Giwer's Amnesia about what you
>yourself said only a little while ago. 
>
>

OK, what was going on here, Mike, was very simple.  I made the argument
that we should drop the discussion of ZB outgassing because it has no
bearing on its lethality in the ten minute range.  I then summarized --
immediately after making the above statement -- why I thought that was so.

Let's get the specifics.  I don't have a problem with that.  However, Mark
wanted to mix it up, so now I get to go over this material with him, and
learn something into the bargain.  Some people, when they attack, I will
let it go.  Nothing to learn from them. But generally arguments with Mark
are fruitful, because he knows his stuff pretty well.  You just have to be
careful with what he says, and ignore the invective.

BTW, I don't mean by that that I don't learn something in disputes with
you, but you don't hyperventilate as much as MVA. :)



From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jul 31 13:58:14 PDT 1996
Article: 54545 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: 30 Jul 1996 21:40:25 -0400
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In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
(Mark Van Alstine) writes:

>As to the difficulty of getting Pressac's _Technique_, I fully agree that
>it is quite difficult to get. It took me over six months of beating the
>bushes to get my copy. However, it was well worth the effort. So many
>denier lies crumble to dust because of Pressac's commendable efforts.
Only
>if it _were_ in Waldenbooks! Right next to Irving's crap. 

Until I get my copy I will have to rely on your say so.  With all that
that implies.

>
>> >The "problem" was, as is typical, with the deniers. It was a problem
of 
>> >distortion, deceit, and turning a blind eye to the evidence. In other
>words, 
>> >the usual denier antics. 
>> 
>> As with all conventionalist ripostes, it is a problem of distortion,
rabid
>> appeals to emotion, and cliche ad hominems.
>
>Sticks and stones, Ehrlich606. Doesn't change the fact that so far nearly
>every denier (I'm being charitable here) that has posted for any decent
>length of time in alt.revisionism has been exposed as a hypocrite and a
>liar. Yourself included. 

Yeah, right.  I am a hypocrite because I summarized an argument in order
to drop it.  Such cheap name calling, Mark.

>
>> >> Therefore I conclude that the outgassing time of ZB is not really an
>> >> issue anymore, since everyone (even Lueftl) concedes that 10 minutes
is
>> >> enough ime to kill everyone on the chamber (The one caveat here is
the
>> >> problem of the gas escaping through the baffles of the prism and the

>> >> induction column, but that is best addressed by an engineer.)  
>> >
>> >The "problem" of "gas escaping through the baffles" is yet another
>> >example of denier "problems." The "solution," of course, sits there 
>> >right in front of your face: _Holzblenden_. Each of the four
>> >_Drahtnetzeinschiebvorrichtung_ came equipped with a _Holzblenden_. 
>> >(cf. _Anatomy_, p.233.) 
>> 
>> What do Holzblenden have to do with it?  Describe precisely how that
would
>> work.
>
>I did. See Tauber's account immediately below. 
>
>> >According to Henryk Tauber:
>> >
>> >"...Through the window of the <>, I observed how the
>> ><> [Zyklon B] was poured into the gas chamber. Each transport
was
>> >followed by a vehicle with Red Cross markings which entered the yard
of
>> >the crematorium, carrying the camp doctor, Mengele, accompanied by
>> >Rottenfu"hrer [corporal] Scheimetz. 
[snip]
> [health
>> >service]. A camp doctor [SS] was present at each gassing...."
>> >(_Technique_. p.494.)
>> 
>> This is all totally irrelevant....  
>
>Hardly irrelevent, Ehrlich606. Please take special note of: "Then he
>closed the orifice with a concrete [or wooden] cover." 
>
>There's how the Holzblenden worked. 
>
>And you castigated me above for resorting "to cheap ad hominems because"
I 
>"would rather persuade people by appealing to their emotions than their
>logic?"  Yet when make good faith efforts to put the _evidence_ that
>refutes your paltry objections at your feet, you whine "this is all
>totally irrelevant." 
>
> As Robin Williams once said, "I'm vexed by assholes!" 

Mark, I know how the covers were removed and the stuff poured in. 
Naturally the cover is put back on!  I am referring to the argument about
the gas escaping out of the prism, up the tube, and then out the holes or
the mesh or what have you.  That was my point, and that was the point you
did not address.  Sorry you have so many of the abovementioned.

>
>> But it's good to see you made sure that Mengele was in on all the
>gassings.  A 
>> nice touch.  But I will hold you to the proposition that four cans were
>used 
>> in four openings.
>
>Oooh, I'm just shaking in my boots! (NOT!) 
>
>But you do that, Ehrlich606, you hold me to those four cans of Zyklon B
>that I quoted from Tauber's deposition in Pressac's _Technique_. But then
>how about I hold _you_ to your dishonest "quotations" and lies of
>ommission from Gilbert's _Nuremberg Diary_ and Lipstadt's _Denying the
>Holocaust_? 

I read something yesterday, remarking that people who attribute evil
motives to others usually do so to mask their own.  I wish I could
remember where it was from.  One thing is certain, it was not from the
Holocaust literature!  As to above accusations, I did not make dishonest
quotations, I made abbreviated quotations.
In the case of Lipstadt, what I quoted in no way changed the sense of what
I quoted. And you know that.
>
>Care to explain yourself there, Ehrlich606? Hmmm? Or will you once more
>canter in the sunset? 
>
>> >The SS "disinfector" simply closed the cover on the "little chimney,"
>> >which would have prevented any HCN gas from escaping. What a concept.
>> >Such clever Nazis.  
>> 
>> Not surprisingly, you totally miss the point, as usual.
>
>Predictably, it figures you'd take _that_ particular cop out. First you
>make noises about how HCN esacping from the introduction columns would
>pose "problems." Then when shown that the columns were capped with covers
>to prevent such a thing (not to mention that the "disinfectors" wore gas
>masks) you say (as you canter away) "you totally miss the point." 
>
>Pardon my laughter! 

Pardon mine, because, as you well know, I was not concerned with ZB going
out the roof but rather its emission through the prism and tube.  Deal
with that argument please.

>
>> >> ...The only other problem here is that Nyiszli, for example, claims
>> >> that the fans were not turned on for 30 minutes.
>> >
>> >Isn't it rather pathetic of deniers, after they try to discredit
>> >eyewitnesses when the eyewitnesses' testimonies contradicts their pet
>> >"arguments" and that they will then turn around and cite the very same
>> >eyewitnesses as an authority when they feel it _supports_ their
>> arguments?
>> >
>> >
>> >Hypocrite.
>> 
>> More gratuitous ad hominems.  
>
>Ehrlich606, you _did_ try your damndest to discredit Nyiszli as a
credible
>witness, but you couldn't. And you _did_ turn around and cite Nyiszli
>eyewitness testimony when it suited _your_ purpose. That's hyprocrital
>behavior plain and simple. Pointing this out, that you are a hypocrite
for
>doing this, is not an ad hominem attack. I did not try to attack your
>argument based on your hypocrisy but simply pointed out (rightly) that
you
>are a hypocrite. My attack on your argument followed this. 

No, it is not hypocritical.  Nyiszli has problems.  We have been over
this.  You have defended him.  But I have not yet rejected his testimony
in toto, because I am not sure how much of the problem is him, or the
fanciful additions of his translator, Tibor Kremer.  If he is wrong on the
half hour bit, say so, and then we can agree that he was wrong on this
point.  

>
>> But, btw, I am not concerned with Nyiszli's veracity.  It is up to
_you_ to
>
>> defend it.  
>
>Nope. Nyislzli's testimony is part of the accepted record. You have a
>problem with his testimony, you must successfully deconstruct it. So far
>you haven't.  

Part of the accepted record to who?  Who quotes him, besides Pressac, and
relies on him as an authority?

>
>> You fail to do so, directly, instead you invoke Pressac, below:
>
>Indeed. Because _my_ argument _isn't_ concerned with _disproving_
>Nyiszli's testimony! I accept that Nyiszli, to his best knowledge,
thought
>it was indeed 30  minutes. I presented Pressac's argument because he has
a
>credible explination that explains this apparent contradiction. 

A credible argument is not a decisive argument.

>
>[snip]
>
>> Pressac ignores that a crush of human bodies also has a lot of nooks
and
>> crannies.... 
>
>Nope. Pressac talks about something similar regarding "the crush of human
>bodies" on page 377 of _Technique_. But since you seem to object so much
>to my using Pressac for my arguments, I'll let _you_ look it up. };-> 
>
>> ...You know, the kind that causes *suffocating coughs* in Nyiszli,
>> but _not_ in any safety manuals on the handling of HCN.
>
>Indeed. The kind that didn't kill anybody because the gas chamber was
>thouroughly vented of so that there wasn't a hazardous concentration of
>HCN. The kind that could have arose from the "constriction of the throat"
>and "respitory difficulties." As for the "*suffocating coughs*" not being
>in the "safety manuals" for HCN, didn't you also claim- incorrectly -that
>the literature on the sysmptoms of HCN poisoning claimed that the victims
>couldn't turn blue? 

I quoted Green, quoting a safely manual, that describes *redness* and only
secondarily *blueness*.  The occasion for *blueness* requires conditions
that have not been proven in this case.

>
>[snip]
>
>> And now we are down to five minutes, contradicting several witnesses.  
>
>Start naming them. 
>
>Dr. Nyiszli? Nope. He claimed that "within five minutes everybody was
>dead." (_Auschwitz_, p. 51.) 
>
>Dr. Bendel? Nope. He wrote, "The solid oak double doors were closed.

The doors were double oak doors??

 (_Technique_, p.470.)
>
>
>Ho"ss? Nope. He wrote, "I can state that about one-third died
immediately.
>The remainder staggered about and began to scream and struggle for air.
>The screaming, however, soon changed to gasping and in a few moments
>everyone lay still. After twenty minutes at the most no movement could be
>detected." (_Death Dealer_, p. 44.) 

This is 20 minutes, Mark, not five.

>
>How about Broad? Nope.  (_KL Auschwitz_, p.176.) 

Who has it down to four minutes.  And he also has a guy taking off his gas
mask, lifting the concrete lid, and then, with HCN gas rising into his
face, spitting down the column.

>
>> Get it together Mark.  The door is opened after 1/2 hour, not 20
minutes. 
>
>Nyiszli wrote, "Twenty minutes later the electric ventilators set going
in
>order to evacuate the gas." (_Auschwitz_, p.51.)
>
>Ho"ss wrote, "The door was opened a half hour after the gas was thrown in
>and the ventilation system turned on." (_Death Dealer_, p.44). 
>
>Dr. Bendel wrote, "Five minutes later, the doors were opened. Like and
>avalanche, the bodies, heaped together and contorted, fell out...."
>(_Technique_, p.470.) 
>
>The interesting thing here is that Dr. Bendel's account here was in
>regards to Krema V. Initially, Krema V had no mechanical ventilation
>system and, because its gas chambers were above ground, relied on opening
>the (exterior) doors of the gas chambers to let the natural draft to
>ventilate them. 

I assume there were two sets of doors. There were, weren't there?

Evidently they were opened _five_ minutes after the Zyklon
>B was administered. 

*Evidently* not proof.  If a revisionist said that, you would call them
names.

OK, so Hoess and Nyiszli agree that it takes about 1/2 hour before the
fans kick in.  Bendel attests 5 minutes until Krema V is opened.  BTW, how
many fans were there?  Their size? 

>
>The central thesis of Pressac's argument here was that it made no sense
to
>_wait_ twenty minutes to start the ventilation system after the victims
>were killed (within 5 minutes or so).

contradicting Hoess, here.

 Dr. Bendel's testimony supports
>Pressac's thesis in that _because_ there was no venitlator, whose
_motors_
>were tucked away in the attic and couldn't be heard in the basement, the
>_doors_ of the gas chamber were opened AS SOON AS THE VICTIMS WERE DEAD.
A
>queue that signified the gassing was over. A visual queue that could
>hardly have been missed- unlike the aural queue of the sound of the
>ventilation system. 

*Cue* is what you want.  But what you and Pressac are doing here is taking
the testimony of a witness to another Krema and transposing it to refute
the testimony of two other witnesses to a completely different style of
Krema.  That is doubtful at best.

>
>What Pressac argues is that the venitlation system was turned on no more
>than ten minutes or so after the Zyklon B was administered. Then the gas
>chamber was aired for 20 or 30 minutes and the door then opened (while
the
>venilattion system was still on). Given that Neither Ho"ss nor Nyislzi
>could here the ventilation system when the gas-tight door was closed,
they
>didn't realize that it was turned on soon after the Zyklon B was
>administered. They heard the ventilation system when the gas-tight door
>was opened 20 or 30 minutes later and simply _assumed_ that was when it
>was turned on. 

In other words the commandant didn't know what was going on.

>
>"Get it together" indeed! Perhaps _you_ could "get it together,"
>Ehrlich606? You can start by pulling your foot out of your mouth. 
>
>[snip]
>
>> Now there is another problem here.  Where is the gas escaping to?  Not
out
>> the *little chimneys* I hope, because they have concrete lids on them
to
>> prevent gas from escaping.  So how is the gas blown out?  Through what
>> openings?  The same ones the gas was put in?  Have the SS taken the
little
>> prisms up yet?
>
>The ventilation system for L.Keller exhausted the HCN-laden air from
vents
>on the roof of the Krema. (cf. _Anatomy_, p.166). As for removing the
>spent (or nearly spent) Zyklon B you should remember, Ehrlich606, that
>when the holzblenden would have been reomoved the ventilation system
would
>have been turned on. rather than HCN gas escaping, fresh air would be
>sucked into the gas chamber. Try this the following experimet: Cut a
bunch
>of holes in a box. cover most of them up with tape. Stick a vacauum
>cleaner hose in one end and turn on the vacuum cleaner. Untape a couple
of
>holes and feel the air being sucked in through them.  Same general idea
in
>the gas chamber. 
>
>Please do try and keep to up here, Ehrlich606. 

OK, so now you are telling me that the air is sucked _in_ through the
roof, through the holes where the ZB was inducted.  Common sense would
tell us that that would be the time for the ZB to be removed.  That's
cool.  But where is the HCN-laden air being blown out?

And now you've got another problem.  It is going to take a few minutes for
one guy to chisel open a can, take off the concrete lids, pour in the
stuff, replace the lids, and repeat the procedure three more times. 
According to your timetable, almost as soon as he finishes the fourth
induction it will be time to take the concrete lids off, and remove the
prisms.   

>
>> >> The other reason why this becomes an issue is because of the
relatively
>> >> low (top out at 7.9 mg/kg) of cyanide compounds in Krema II,
especially
>> >> when compared to the delousing chambers.  
>> >
>> >Please elaborate. Are you suggesting that using ZYklon B for the
>> >disinfection of clothes, which was done at high HCN concentrations 
>> >for _hours_ would _not_ produce higher traces of HCN in the delousing
>> >chambers than it would in the jhomicidal gas chambers which were 
>> >exposed to HCN for tens of minutes? Is this, perchance, another one 
>> >of your denier "problems?" Should I get your horse for this one too? 
>> 
>> Judging by your responses I think you have had far too much time with
my
>> horse as it is.
>
>Hardly. You've given the poor bestie such a "workout" he ready's for the
>glue factory! Do be gentler with your next pet. 
>
>> >> The argument here is also that the induction and extraction of gas
was
>> >> done promptly, the gas was ventilated quickly, and therefore the
cyanide
>> >> compounds are low. I don't find that impossible in theory.
>> >
>> >How comforting. How gracious of you. :-/
>> 
>> You are welcome, I am sure. :)
>
>Indeed. Such an "obliging" soul you are. Too bad you keep riding off into
>the sunset- before the final act -all the time....
>
>Mark

Next time, you can tell me how many witnesses describe wire-mesh columns
besides Nyiszli, who in fact does not describe the induction columns as
wire mesh.




From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jul 31 13:58:16 PDT 1996
Article: 54562 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: 30 Jul 1996 21:33:07 -0400
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In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
(Mark Van Alstine) writes:

>Subject:	Re: Mauving right along
>From:	mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
>Date:	30 Jul 1996 08:39:41 GMT
>
>In article <4thi4k$fdj@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
>(Ehrlich606) wrote:
>
>> In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
>> (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
>> 
>
>[snip]
>
>> >If you had followed the various discusions for the last several months
>> >you would have realized that this _was_ the gist of many denier
arguments.
>> >That it _was_ argued that homicidal gassings didn't take place
_because_
>> >eyewitness testimonies said it took about 5-10 minutes, then 20
minutes
>> >or so to evacuate the gas chamber, and that because (allegedly) Zyklon
B
>> >took longer than this to evolve all the HCN "proved" that the
eyewitnesses
>> >were "lying." Ergo, no gassings took place. 
>> 
>> This is not true....  
>
>Of course it is. Go read the archives. You can start from 1995 or so. 
>
>[snip]
>
>> >This is utter nonsense on the part of the deniers of course. 
>> 
>> *of course* is gratuitous here.  But you know that.
>
>Of course. But well deserved. But you knew that. 
>
>> >...And now, when presented with evidence that Zyklon B _did_ rapidly 
>> >evolve much, if not most, of the HCN in about 10 minutes or so you 
>> >suggest we "drop" the discussion as we "we can't get specifics?"
>> 
>> I said no such thing.  And you know that.
>
>Excuse me. Did you not write in article
<4tgek6$tm@newsbf02.news.aol.com>:
>
>"My attitude on this is since we can't get specifics we should really
drop
>it. Neither the 37% hypothesis nor the Peters' comment are mutually
>exclusive in the sense that nobody at this point in time is arguing for
>complete outgassing in 10 minutes or even in one half hour."
>
>Sure look like you suggested we "drop" the discussion as we "we can't get
>specifics." 
>
>But you knew that too. 
>
>> >_That_ is utter nonsense on _your_ part, Ehrlich606. Is this to be yet

>> >_another_ topic you jump on your rhetorical high horse (hobby horse?) 
>> >and ride away from? 
>> 
>> As usual, the tired van Alstine resorts to cheap ad hominems because he
>> would rather persuade people by appealing to their emotions than their
>> logic.
>
>As usual, Ehrlich606 canters away. 

It is all very simple, Mark.  The argument hereabouts is the degree of ZB
outgassing. The standard *revisionist* argument is 37% per half hour of
remaining volume, keyed to a DF data point.  The standard
*conventionalist* argument is *after 1/2 hour, the greater part* has
evolved, quoting Peters' book from 1933.

The revisionist argument has at least numerical specificity to it, but to
this point no confrimation of the total run of the data points.  That is
the objection.  It also appears to contradict Peters' 60 year old book. 
The problem with the conventionalist argument is that Peters' remarks are
vague.  What is *greater part after 1/2 hour*? 50%? 60%? 80%? and so
forth.  Proof that Peters' remarks are vague is that it is even used to
support the argument (on the basis of the subjective *vehemenz* of the
outgassing) that it was *almost* done in 10 minutes.

Please.  This is not proof.  The point of my message 3-4 messages ago was
to say that until we can get greater specificity on this subject, we
should drop it.  I further pointed out that regardless of the release time
no one denies that enough gas would evolve in ten minutes to kill everyone
in the chamber.  Therefore there was nothing to argue about.  To prove
that point, I summarized the contents of that argument.  You, probably
because you were bored with the ladies' floor exercises, decided to attack
the argument, anyway.  OK, so I am responding to that.  

>
>> >> Now this was the point of Lueftl's calculations.  He claimed that if
>> >> the ZB was put in, someone would have to clean it up.  The
>*wastefulness*
>> >> argument, IMHO, is not really relevant.  Whether 92% is still in
after
>> >> 10 minutes, or something else, the point is that the ZB is going to
be
>> >> dangerous and still outgas for some time after opening the can.
>> >
>> >So much for you "dropping" discusion on this as "we can't get
specifics!"
>> 
>> >
>> >Hypocrite.  

Look, I am summarizing the argument precisely so I can drop it.  Leave it
to you to deliberately misconstrue and call names.  

>> 
>> Another gratuitous assault, as predictable in a van Alstine post sun
after
>> a shower.
>
> You're _still_ a hypocrite. Go cry on the Troll's shoulder if it
>makes you feel any better. 

More of the same.
>
>> >> All right. But since the argument now goes that there are gas masks
as
>> >> well as induction tubes (actually, I gather prisms that contain the
>> >> pellets, lowered by wire into the tube), and that the prisms are
>> >> removed, we don't have an problem here anymore.
>> >
>> >The was never a _real_ problem in the first place! 
>> 
>> Of course there was.  There was a major problem until Pressac wrote his
>> book.  
>
>Such a stunning display of denier "logic." As if the reality of how the
>gas chambers operated in 1941-44 didn't become reality until Pressac
waved
>his pen? Is this some denier corallary to the Schro"dinger's cat
>experiment? That the gassings may or may not have has "problems" until
>somebody writes about it? 
>
>Pardon my laughter!

And now you are going to pretend that there was not general consternation
when Leuchter published his report?  Or that Pressac's book did not get a
vig writeup in the New Yorker as to its *definitive* proof of something or
other?

>
>> And of course, there have evidently been problems since, as Pressac
>> has revised the book several times, and it is still not possible to
obtain
>> the book mainstream.  Or perhaps you want to claim it is at
Waldenbooks.
>
>Interesting that you can vouch for these alleged "problems" without
>reading the Pressac's book.... Who told you of these "problems?" A little
>denier birdie? 

Among other things, he has reduced his number of gassing victims.



From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jul 31 13:58:18 PDT 1996
Article: 54577 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: You can't trust anyone
Date: 30 Jul 1996 21:23:42 -0400
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In article <4tjin1$ri9@grivel.une.edu.au>, 
writes:

>
>From: Alexander Baron, A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk
>Date: Fri, 26 Jul 96 17:46:38 GMT
>In article <838403198snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> Alexander Baron,
>A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk writes:
>
>>
>>Irving's latest report also reveals that a 19 year old woman with
>the 
>>very Anglo-Saxon name of Marcy Leibsohn 
>
>Sound very Germanic to me. It literally means "own son" as opposed to
>stepson ("Stiefsohn") or son-in-law ("Schwiegersohn").
>
>d.A.

Ein wenig ironisch ....


From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jul 31 13:58:18 PDT 1996
Article: 54582 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photographs from BELSEN Camp
Date: 30 Jul 1996 22:02:37 -0400
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In article <31FCDA3D.1FC2@rio.com>, Chuck Ferree  writes:

>
>Chuck Ferree wrote:
>
>This turkey 606 is flat out a lost cause. How many times does it have 
>to be proven.
>Get a life 606!
>Chuck
>
>
>
>Ehrlich606 wrote:
>
>> >> >In article  dkeren@world.std.com "Daniel
>> Keren"
>> >> >writes:
>> >> >> Our Nazi-lovers cannot give evidence of *one* SS-man or woman,
>> >> >> nor of any German soldier, who starved to death in the camps.
>> >> >
>> >> >I found a report in a medical journal from c1946 which reported
some
>deaths from malnutrition alone after the war; 
>
>My dear boy, of course there were deaths suffered by Germans after the 
>war. Some starvation, some from lack of proper medical care. I was 
>there in Germany for almost one year after the war ended. No Germans 
>suffered like that in our zone. They had it very rough, but many would 
>have died with out the American Marshall Plan.

Marshall Plan didn't kick in for a couple of years, Chuck.  I'll bet you
didn't miss a meal.  Do you think all the frauleins who were doing frat
with you guys for a pack of Luckys and a chocolate bar were doing it
because they liked Americans?  They were hungry.

> >
>> >Indeed. The immediate post-war sufferings of the German people have
been
>> >written about and documented. The challange that Dr. Keren has posed
(not
>> >for the first time either) to Mr. Baron, however, was quite specific:
>> >
>> >"Name one SS-man, SS-woman, or soldier from Belsen who was
>> >starving, while more than 50,000 inmates died.
>
>None...I know my boy, because I spent a total of two weeks at Belsen.
>> 
>>  50,000 people did not die in Belsen in the
>> last weeks of the war or thereafter.
>
>Let's see your proof. How many can you prove did indeed die?

Prove your numbers, below.

>
>Oh, you have some new information to share with us, has to be true 
>though, not your usual bullshit. 
>
>30-40 thousand died within the first week of liberation, 26,000 more 
>died by the third week of liberation. My number would be about 70-75 
>thousand. All in all. 
>What number can you prove?

What number can you prove?

>> 
>> Now as to the point.  How many SS personnel were at the camp?  **Maybe
a
>few
>> hundred.
>
>**Maybe a good guess! But not even close. And guessing don't even 
>count.
>
>At first several thousand SS guards, some other nationalities, then 
>many fled, were caught and tried. 
>
>  Obviously, there was enough food to feed them.
>
>
>Obviously, because they were all well fed. And there were warehouses 
>of food and water on the premises. I saw captured American food, in 
>just one warehouse. Feeding them by the time they were liberated 
>caused many more to die.
>
>
>  I don't recall hearing of any Allied personnel
>> who died of starvation.  But tens, if not hundreds of thousands of
Germans
>> did.  The logic for this just doesn't stand up.
>
>Doesn't stand up because it's a lie. That's an easy one to refute.

According to the rather large literature on the subject, starting with De
Zayas, there were in fact so many starvations especially in the first
postwar winter because the Allies had not made provision to feed the
population nor the millions of expellees who were getting shipped from
Poland and other points east.

Go ahead, champ, refute away.

>> 
>
>> >
>> >"Explain the fact that all these unfortunate accidents of the
>> >water pump breaking down, the bread truck not being allowed
>> >in, bla-bla, happened only in the concentration camps.
>> 
>> Dan is under a misapprehension that nothing like this happened
elsewhere.
>> It did.  Allied POW's ran out of food that Spring, also.  Look at the
>> photographs.  Then, go on and compare the photographs of several
inmates
>> like Buchenwald, Auschwitz, and other locations where several of the
>> inmates, although not in the peak of health, are not emaciated either.
>> 
>> There was a typhus epidemic in Belsen, brought to the camp by
Hungarians.
>> (Probably transferred from AB.)  This contributed to the problem. 
Kramer
>> specifically references supply trains that were shot up by Alllied
planes.
>> The conventionalist position becomes a lot more credible if the
contrary
>> theses and facts are entertained.
>
>606 and other bleeding hearts anti Holocausters, use any ruse to try 
>and persuade others that the Germans were up to their ass in 
>alligators, which they were. But The German-Austrian SS not only let 
>people starve to death near the end of the war, they did it all along 
>as a matter of Nazi policy. (see Ruth Bondy's book "Elder of the Jews)
>> 
You call me a bleeding heart?  That's a laugh.  I am not the one freaking
out about people who died during or after a war that happened over 50
years ago.  In fact I have posted lots of specifics about treatment of
Jews that _didn't_ happen to Germans.  Get you grandson to read them to
you.

In fact, I have probably posted almost as much about specific Jewish
massacres and/or survivor testimonies than anyone in this group, except
for Dan Keren, who usually posts SS testimony.  And I have also posted
arguments as to why the Jewish Holocaust was unique without depending on
BS about numbers or percentages.

The difference is that I don't push a party line.  I call it like I see
it.  And if all you can do is dumbass name calling be my guest.

>> >
>> >"Explain the fact that, out of all the British and American
>> >POW's captured by the Nazis, 3 percent died in captivity,
>> >while in Belsen the death rate was more than 50 (and, clearly,
>> >if the British Army would not have arrived there, it would
>> >have been a 100).
>> 
>> Simply put, they were not subjected to typhus epidemics.
>
>Many other camps also had Typhus epidemics: Thereiensestadt, 
>Mauthausen, Buchenwald, Dachau, Auschwitz, and many many others. 
>Belsen was worse than most but they all had the problem, Belsen, the 
>commandant and SS just didn't give a shit. 
>> 
And neither did you guys when you were bombing and strafing civilians on
the roads, trying to get away from the Russians.


>> >
>> >"There is a very simple explanation, but you refuse to accept
>> >it; just like any other fanatic, you refuse to accept reality.

I am not a fanatic.  You are a fanatic.  The difference is that I can see
your points. You refuse to see any but your own.
>> 
>> The simple explanation is that the Nazis didn't care whether these
people
>> lived or died. OK, the Allies obviously didn't care if the German
civilian
>> population lived or died either, when they bombed 600,000 of them to
>> smithereens during the strategic bombing offensive.  But neither case
>> proves an extermination program.
>
>Idiot, you're gonna compare combat missions, bombing etc to innocents 
>being starved to death on purpose. There was an honest to God war 
>going on, pal, we bombed, they bombed, they starved people to death, 
>we didn't. 

Some combat missions -- blowing up a bunch of kids at the circus in their
Mardi Gras costumes.  Dresden, 1945.  But it wasn't done on purpose!  Get
real.

OK, and maybe you strafed the survivors at Dresden the next day.  But
that's cool.  That's war.  Meanwhile,  explain the post-war starvations. 
And don't pretend they didn't happen.

>Chuck
>> 
>> >
>> >Bringing up German post-war tribulations in regards to the
intentionally
>> >horrid conditions inflicted on the prisoners of Bergen-Belsen by the
>> Nazis
>> >is nothiong more than a red herring. A typical denier tactic, btw,
when
>> no
>> >valid rebuttal can be made.
>> 
>> Hundreds of thousands of Germans perished after both world wars,
largely
>> due to Allied failure to lift the blockade (after WW1) and distribute
food
>> (WW2).  Comparable results, but again, anyone who levels an
*extermination
>> program* thesis under those conditions is dismissed as paranoid.
>
>This horses-behind, knows very little about real history. 606, is a 
>genuine denier, even though he tried to convice me otherwise. He's not 
>to bright a kid, really.
>Chuck

Stick to the facts, Chuck.

>> 
>> >
>> >Please, Ehrlich606, do try to stay on track here.
>> >
>> >
>> OK, so why don't you start by explaining why Kramer would allow his
camp
>> to be taken over with thousands of corpses laying around, knowing full
>> well that it would be a public relations disaster, but nevertheless he
did
>> it on purpose?
>
>He did it because the British were kicking German ass all over the 
>place. They paniced he couldn't run, and he couldn't hid. That's what 
>we in the military refered to as "tough shit!"
>
So? It was a long time ago.  But let's not pretend that there were not
extreme brutalities inflicted on the German civilian population during and
after the war.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jul 31 13:58:19 PDT 1996
Article: 54590 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hitler praiser Reinhardt and Mahler?
Date: 31 Jul 1996 00:24:43 -0400
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In article <4tki7n$ime@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>,
abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels) writes:

>
>[The original text]
>
>	Wir besprechen Theaterfragen. Der Fuehrer ist sehr interessiert.
Er erklaert
>	 Erscheinungen wie Mahler oder Max Reinhardt, deren Faehigkeiten
und
>	 Verdienste er nicht abstreitet. In der Reproduktion vermag der
Jude
>manchmal
>	 etwas zu leisten.
>	_Die Tagebuecher von Joseph Goebbels: Saemtliche Fragmente, Teil
I, Band 4_,
>	Ed. Elke Froehlich, Muenchen etc.: K.G. Saur, 1987, p. 441.
>
>Although the first translation is not very good, not even this version
allows
>Irvings
>interpretation. The original quotation has to be translated the following
>way:
>
>	We discuss issues affecting the theatre. The Fuehrer is very
interested. He
>explains
>	such phenomena as Mahler or Max Reinhardt whose abilites and
achievement he
>	does not deny. Sometimes the Jew may achieve something in
imitation.
>
>Hitler is hardly praising Reinhardt or Mahler here, since he is denying
their
>originality as
>artists. "Mimicry" is the central point of the quotations. As Hitler has
>stated often enough,
>he divides the races into "producers of culture", "keepers of culture"
and
>"destroyers of
>culture".  "Aryans" belong to the first, "the Jew" to the last category.
This
>division is
>reaffirmed in the quotation. Exceptations to the rule can only be
explained
>in the way
>that the Jewish artist reproduces achievments "Aryans" have reached
before.
>
>No we have to ask, how did Irving come to his astonishing interpretation?
>Either he does
>know German, than we have caught him again bungling, translating wrongly.
Or
>he does
>not know German, than we have to ask how it is possible to do extensive
>studies on
>sources when he cannot even read the original text? Looks again like
bungling
>to me...
>
>Either way, Irving's reputation doesn't look good...
>
>Nele
>
>

Thanks for the work, but here I translate.

>	Wir besprechen Theaterfragen. Der Fuehrer ist sehr interessiert.
Er erklaert
>	 Erscheinungen wie Mahler oder Max Reinhardt, deren Faehigkeiten
und
>	 Verdienste er nicht abstreitet. In der Reproduktion vermag der
Jude
>manchmal
>	 etwas zu leisten.

We speak about the the Theater.  The Fuhrer is very interested.  He
explains phenomena like Mahler and Max Reinhardt, who abilities and
achievements he does not contest.  In the executive arts the Jew often has
something to contribute.

*executive* in this sense is the word commonly used in English to denote
*reproduction*, i.e., Arthur Schnabel was a great executant of the
Beethovenian canon, etc.  So what Hitler is saying, I would submit, is
that Mahler was greater as a conductor than as a composer, and Reinhardt
was great at putting on plays. No problem there.  *Mimicry* has nothing to
do with it.  And he is saying _precisely_ what you noted about Jews being
great *recreators* of art.

As far as Irving's paraphrase goes, it is a paraphrase.  Just exactly
where is his paraphrase deceptive?




From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jul 31 13:58:20 PDT 1996
Article: 54601 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Graph of the Outgassing of Zyklon (was Moran's Scientific Breakthrough)
Date: 30 Jul 1996 22:29:36 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Subj:	Re: A Graph of the Outgassing of Zyklon (was Moran's Scientific
Breakthrough)
Date:	07/29/96
To:	jamie@voyager.net

In a message dated 96-07-29 19:50:54 EDT, you write:

>
>(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
>alt.revisionism)
>
>jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>
>> ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:
>> 
>> > What I don't understand about that is that I have a graph of Zyklon
>> > out-gassing from the German firm that took over the production from
>> > Degesch, and it shows a straight 37% per half hour outgassing of the
>> > remaining volume.
>> 
>> _Do_ you!?
>> 
>> Wow!
>> 
>> Please photocopy that graph and mail it to me immediately -- contact me
>> in email for my address.
>
>Ehrlich contacted me in email on 7/25 to say that he would send me that
>graph, but I've been running around all weekend and didn't get a chance
>to reply until today.  Apologies for the delay.
>
>Ehrlich:  you said that your source identified these graphs as being
>from Detia Freyberg.  That's very different, of course, from actually
>having a graph from D.F. themselves.  What you seem to have is a source
>which _claims_ that the original source is D.F.

Yes, I cannot vouch for its authenticity as I said.  Yet I spoke to my
source and they don't recall its origin either.
>
>I very strongly suspect that what you have is not a graph from D.F. but
>rather a reproduction of the graph which Rudolf produced, based on that
>single data point allegedly from D.F.  See my first article with this
>subject for details on his many erroneous and unfounded assumptions.
>In other words, your source is, if I'm correct, mistaken in saying that
>the information came straight from D.F.  Disappointing.

Yes.  Why don't you call up DF and straighten it out?

>
>You say that the graphs were sent in email and that that email must
>remain private.  I don't suppose you can tell us if the emailer who
>seems to have led you astray (deliberately or otherwise) is a
>participant in this forum?  If so, perhaps that person would care to
>step forward and explain what's going on, to save us all some time and
>confusion.

NO -- not e-mail.  Snail mail, after some phone calls.
>
>Meanwhile, I'm about to send you my snail-mail address in email;  I'd
>still like very much to see the graphs you have.

PS -- will do soon.




From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jul 31 13:58:21 PDT 1996
Article: 54606 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauve in Hungarian
Date: 31 Jul 1996 01:41:33 -0400
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In article <4tm19a$mhr@grivel.une.edu.au>, 
writes:

>
>Subject: Re: Mauve in Hungarian
>From: Mark Van Alstine, mvanalst@rbi.com
>Date: 30 Jul 1996 09:09:52 GMT
>In article  Mark Van
>Alstine, mvanalst@rbi.com writes:
>>Very good. Now what is the word for "pedant" in Hungrian? 
>
>Faszkalap.
>
>d.A.

nem igaz, vaskalapos ez a szo.  *Faszkalap* ez az Ausztraliai kalap, *bush
hat.* :)





From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jul 31 13:58:22 PDT 1996
Article: 54607 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Schott, Keyes, & Hitler  Re: FREE SPEECH?
Date: 31 Jul 1996 01:45:11 -0400
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In article <31fe856d.55503047@news.europeonline.com>,
100273.3352@compuserve.com (Juergen Langowski) writes:

>
>Geez, are they at it again? At how many rpm are they running?
>
>Anyway, I didn't get the beginning of this thread, but if it helps,
here's
>a quote from Himmler. The [!] is the author's.
>	
>	Es trat an uns die Frage heran: Wie ist es mit den Frauen
>	und Kindern? - Ich habe mich entschlossen, auch hier eine
>	ganz klare Lösung zu finden. Ich hielt mich nämlich nicht
>	für berechtigt, die Männer auszurotten - sprich also,
>	umzubringen [!] oder umbringen zu lassen - und die Rächer
>	in Gestalt der Kinder für unsere Söhne und Enkel
>	groß werden zu lassen. Es mußte der schwere Entschluß
>	gefaßt werden, dieses Volk von der Erde verschwinden zu
>	lassen.

Now this is an explicit call to kill the women and children, so that the
children will not pose a threat to the children of the SS in the future. 
*umzubringen* in this context can only be translated as kill, although in
other contexts it could be done as *put down*, *taken down* -- there is
also a latent pun comparable to English, undertaking/undertaker.  But not
here.  Also, *verschwinden etc.* would be wiped off the face of the earth.
 I am sure I will be criticized for my approach to _this_ passage, as
well.




From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jul 31 13:58:23 PDT 1996
Article: 54613 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: SS-Standartenfuehrer Jager Writes a Report
Date: 31 Jul 1996 01:48:21 -0400
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Subject:	SS-Standartenfuehrer Jager Writes a Report
From:	dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Date:	Tue, 30 Jul 1996 22:43:24 GMT

Among all the Nazi documents detailing dastardly acts of mass
murder and other forms of barbarism, the "Jager Report" is
perhaps one of the most horrifying.

EH606:  This is Dan's post, and proof of the massacres that were reality. 
However, a few comments.

1)  It should be noted that the ratios shift among men, women, and
children.  At first, it is almost only men.  Then the women's numbers pick
up.  Finally, after a few sonderaktions justified as reprisals, the
numbers for the children pick up.

2)  This implies a process that is gathering momentum as it goes along. 
It also implies a process of brutalization for the shooters.

3)  In turn, that implies an original order to the effect that Jewish
males, defined as communists and future enemies in the Nazi lexicon, are
to be shot.  Now under this definition, the Commissar Order would fit as a
pretext.  Note that the number of communists among the Jews is mentioned
several times.

4)  There is resettlement of Western Jews: this corresponds to the 7/31/41
letter as well as the Wannsee conference.  The Western Jews are frequently
shot, sometimes after several months. (consult Minsk postings,
hereabouts).

5)  There is sex selection and segregation, and suggestions for
sterilization.  This corresponds to the Wannsee conference.  We know that
there were not large scale sterilizations in any case.

6)  Jews who are economically valuable to the Reich, and their families,
are allowed to live.  So the extermination order, such as it is, is a
*second stage* extermination order, as I have maintained all along. 
Except that we know, from several witness testimonies that I have posted,
that what that eventually meant was labor camps and or concentration
camps.

7)  Except here again we are looking at a process that escalates, we are
not looking at a process that says at the outset, every Jew is to be
exterminated.  Therefore I consider this document valuable to a
functionalist interpretation.

8)  There is meager consolation here.  Assuming Jews who retreated from
the Germans, and Jews who managed to survive the camp system, we can
gather that Goebbel's approximation of 60% of the pre-war populations
being liquidated is borne out by this report.

9)  60% of approximately 10 million throughout the theater is about six
million, the problem with that number is that it makes little allowance
for those deported, imprisoned, or executed by the Soviets either between
October, 1939-June, 1941 or in the immediate postwar years.  I am
convinced that those numbers were considerable.

10)  More interesting is that if these shootings were carried on for the
entire duration of the war, a number in excess of 10 million could easily
have been achieved, and without the use of gas chambers.  Therefore the
argument for the high volume of gassings in order to achieve the total is
rendered null.  This is even if we grant some inflation to the report.

11) It is also interesting to note the fact that native partisans are used
to carry out the operations.  This helps explain why the Einsatzkommandos,
relatively small, should have been able to achieve such huge totals.

12)  I submit that what we are left with is a process that evolves over
time, and becomes more savage over time, supervised for the most part by
the German government, which is ultimately directed against all Jews who
are not economically valuable to the Third Reich.  This is an
extermination policy that evolves, and is of what I would call a second
order.

In addition, we are dealing with numbers that are in the millions, whether
or not they correspond to the six million figure is not really relevant. 
It should be said that to argue for forgery in such detail is just
unacceptable.  No one would go to that much trouble.

Documents of this sort are sufficient proof of the Jewish genocide.  But
documents like this do not reference gas chambers.     



From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jul 31 13:58:24 PDT 1996
Article: 54632 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photographs from BELSEN Camp
Date: 30 Jul 1996 23:22:32 -0400
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In article <31FCDA3D.1FC2@rio.com>, Chuck Ferree  writes:

>
>Chuck Ferree wrote:
>
>This turkey 606 is flat out a lost cause. How many times does it have 
>to be proven.
>Get a life 606!
>Chuck
>
>
>

If anyone wants to learn something about REALITY of Belsen, rather than
the confirmation of their prejudices, they should go to the Zundelsite:

http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/01.ftp.kulaszka.6M/a.TOC.html

And read _in its entirety_  the abstract of the testimony of Dr. Russell
Barton, an Englishman who was there as camp dietician after the camp was
liberated.

Period.  Read the _whole_ thing.



From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jul 31 13:58:25 PDT 1996
Article: 54635 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why are the stories preserved?
Date: 23 Jul 1996 17:53:00 -0400
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In article <4t2br6$4am@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>,
abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels) writes:

>
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>>If it is all this simple why are these stories preserved?
>>
>>     The stories are preserved primarily by Jewish historians and
>>organizations.  There is very little impartial secular history on
>>these stories.  At this point one can only speculate as to why.
>
>It certainly has eluded you, but there is a  _very_ wide Holocaust
>research in Germany. But anyway, you dream up the lies you need
>as you go along.
>
>Nele
>
>

The quality of Holocaust research in a country where books are burned and
free access to the Bundesarchiv is denied can be well imagined.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jul 31 13:58:26 PDT 1996
Article: 54646 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Keeping Neighborhoods Jewish (ADV)
Date: 23 Jul 1996 20:45:05 -0400
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In article ,
schwartz@infinet.com writes:

>
>In article ,
>jesusdung  wrote:
>
>> no sorry Billy Bob. From the highest ranking commies to the Red Army
they 
>> were all good old straight outta the pale ghettoized khazar 
>> jewy-jew-jews. 
>> 
>> And oh yes Lenin was a jew: jewry has a funny system of couting anyone
a 
>> jew who's mother was a jew. 
>
>
>There's a simple reason for that. Because it's a lot more obvious who
your
>mother is than your father.
> 

When the Prussians under Frederick the Great passed legislation forbidding
marriages between Germans and Poles, they limited it to German men
marrying Polish women, not the other way round.  Reason:  Children get
their language and their culture from their mothers.  (Also, according to
Schopenhauer, their brains.)  To the extent that Jewish matrilineal
descent is justified by something other than tradition (and we should have
a mind to Orthodox interpretations on this), I would expect that the above
practical justification would be more likely than the biological one you
have offered.
    




From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jul 31 13:58:27 PDT 1996
Article: 54670 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Schott, Keyes, & Hitler  Re: FREE SPEECH?
Date: 31 Jul 1996 13:53:57 -0400
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In article ,
jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) writes:

>One of those contexts, you told me in email, was this sentence from
>the October 4th speech:
>
>   Wir haben das moralische Recht, wir hatten die Pflicht unserem Volk
>   gegenueber das zu tun, dieses Volk, das uns umbringen wollte,
>   umzubringen.
>
>Would you mind telling us what the difference in context is between
>the former "umbringen" and the latter "umbringen"?
>
>> there is
>> also a latent pun comparable to English, undertaking/undertaker.
>
>I'm afraid you totally lost me.
>
As far as *umbringen* goes in the first, I would say the translation as
*kill* is unavoidable because of the wording about *even women and
children* who might *rise in the form of vengeance* and so forth.  

But you know, there is this expression I have heard, *Er bringt mich um*
i.e., *He's killing me*, but that is not meant literally.  So I won't
guarantee *umbringen* as *kill* (in a homicidal sense)  in all contexts.

As for the latter quote: I would go with -- *We have a moral right, we
have the obligation, to destroy this people who would seek to destroy us.*

As far as word play goes, how about:

*Against these people, who would undertake to take us under, we have the
moral right and the obligation to be their undertakers.*

Himmler, as told to Friedrich Nietzsche.
>



From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jul 31 13:58:28 PDT 1996
Article: 54678 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: 31 Jul 1996 13:57:17 -0400
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In article ,
jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) writes:

>
>ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:
>
>> Reasons why the boxes are not rolls of tar paper, or some other roofing
>> element either for the roof of the Krema or other part of the building,
>> which is what they look like, and which is what I have seen on roofing
>> jobs since I was a little boy:
>> 
>> NONE
>
>Why would anyone have stood rolls of tar paper, or felt, or whatever it
>is, up on end?
>
>Someone else postulated that it was to protect it from the snow on the
>surface of the roof.  Why would you want one entire long edge of your
>felt wetted by snow as opposed to one short strip that could easily be
>cut off?
>
>Furthermore, Andrew Allen (Ceacaa) tells us that tar paper, or felt, or
>whatever Mark Van Alstine's speculation was, was not necessary at that
>point.  You'll have to argue that out with him, I'm afraid.
>
>

The roofing felt was set on end to make it easier to measure and lay. 
Whether or not the bituminous felt gets wet in the application is not the
issue.  The issue is that it would be a major nuisance to have to pick up
a roll of tar paper lying in the snow.

I am convinced that the stuff is tar paper, or possibly some other roofing
element in a roll.  But all I am going on is the photo.  Since the
alternate explanations -- so far -- have problems as I enumerated, and
since three off center chimneys do not prove four in line induction vents,
thereby making the resolution of this point irrelevant to gassings or
non-gassings, I see no point in arguing about it.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jul 31 13:58:28 PDT 1996
Article: 54679 of alt.revisionism
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From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photographs from BELSEN Camp
Date: 31 Jul 1996 13:57:17 -0400
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In article ,
jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) writes:

>
>ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:
>
>> If anyone wants to learn something about REALITY of Belsen, rather than
>> the confirmation of their prejudices, they should go to the Zundelsite:
>> 
>> http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/01.ftp.kulaszka.6M/a.TOC.html
>> 
>> And read _in its entirety_  the abstract of the testimony of Dr.
Russell
>> Barton, an Englishman who was there as camp dietician after the camp
was
>> liberated.
>> 
>> Period.  Read the _whole_ thing.
>
>Do you think this testimony is more trustworthy than the testimony given
>by Emil Lachout, who assisted the Allied War Crimes Commission?
>
>http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/01.ftp.kulaszka.6M/29.Lachout
>
>If so, why?
>
>(Two can play at this "you can't trust the X" game.  You substitute
>"Soviets," I substitute "witnesses called by the Zuendel defense team."
>Here's how the game is played:  since X has been proven beyond a doubt
>
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/l/lachout.emil/lachout-document
>
>to have called forth complete forgeries as evidence, the other evidence
>which they have presented is suspect and cannot be trusted without
>something to corroborate it.  Soviets:Katyn::Zuendelistas:Lachout.)
>
>

Why don't you read the post.  The _whole_ thing, including the examination
and the cross examination.  Including the descriptions of Belsen _and_ his
insights into propaganda, brainwashing, skepticism, and his practice as a
psychiatrist.  You might find that he is remarkably even handed.  But if
you don't like what you read, then you can come back here and call him
names.



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